1
00:00:08,960 --> 00:00:13,320
Speaker 1: This is me Eater Podcast coming at you shirtless, severely,

2
00:00:13,440 --> 00:00:17,680
Speaker 1: bug bitten, and in my case, underwear listening un podcast.

3
00:00:18,239 --> 00:00:23,360
Speaker 1: You can't predict anything presented by First like creating proven

4
00:00:23,640 --> 00:00:27,880
Speaker 1: versatile hunting apparel from Marino bass layers to technical outerwear

5
00:00:27,960 --> 00:00:35,880
Speaker 1: for every hunt. First Light, Go Farther, stay longer, real quick.

6
00:00:36,280 --> 00:00:37,919
Speaker 1: A couple of things we want to announce here. So

7
00:00:39,040 --> 00:00:41,760
Speaker 1: if you've watched me Eater and followed our stuff, you've

8
00:00:41,800 --> 00:00:45,280
Speaker 1: you've obviously my friend Kimmy Werner around uh spear fisher

9
00:00:45,360 --> 00:00:48,680
Speaker 1: woman from Hawaii. I love her to death. We're doing

10
00:00:48,680 --> 00:00:52,040
Speaker 1: a series with her spear Chef, so Jimmy's own Spearfish

11
00:00:52,080 --> 00:00:54,080
Speaker 1: and show. I'm on one in the Bahamas and holy

12
00:00:54,080 --> 00:00:56,040
Speaker 1: ship that we have a good time. I got some

13
00:00:56,200 --> 00:00:58,920
Speaker 1: just really cool just everything about it, and I was

14
00:00:58,960 --> 00:01:02,240
Speaker 1: like it was a dream, amazing footage. My kids were

15
00:01:02,280 --> 00:01:04,520
Speaker 1: mesmerized by when I watched it with him, just all

16
00:01:04,520 --> 00:01:07,960
Speaker 1: the beautiful underwater stuff. So episode one came out a

17
00:01:07,959 --> 00:01:13,080
Speaker 1: few days ago. Check that out. Also, our hate to

18
00:01:13,120 --> 00:01:15,240
Speaker 1: call our former co host, but it used to be

19
00:01:15,480 --> 00:01:17,840
Speaker 1: Yanni was on like on this show. Yanni was on

20
00:01:17,920 --> 00:01:21,679
Speaker 1: every episode. This is back when Yanni produced Uh, Yanni

21
00:01:21,680 --> 00:01:24,319
Speaker 1: needs to produce our TV show. We were always together,

22
00:01:24,560 --> 00:01:27,600
Speaker 1: like we always say, nuts on a dog. Uh, Yanni

23
00:01:27,680 --> 00:01:30,080
Speaker 1: was on every episode. Yanni like missed one episode in

24
00:01:30,319 --> 00:01:33,119
Speaker 1: years of recording. But he's going on. He's gone. He's

25
00:01:33,120 --> 00:01:36,600
Speaker 1: got his own stuff. He does his own show, runs

26
00:01:36,600 --> 00:01:40,520
Speaker 1: his own program um. He is launching a new podcast

27
00:01:40,560 --> 00:01:43,840
Speaker 1: which is called which is our gear Talk Podcast, which

28
00:01:43,880 --> 00:01:47,480
Speaker 1: is Yanni a collaborative project between our very own Yanni

29
00:01:47,520 --> 00:01:51,440
Speaker 1: would tell us and Jordan's bud what we're gonna do

30
00:01:51,480 --> 00:01:53,559
Speaker 1: on our gear Talk podcast where they just talk about

31
00:01:53,600 --> 00:01:57,880
Speaker 1: all things gear, arguments about gear, what's coming out, what

32
00:01:57,920 --> 00:02:00,960
Speaker 1: they like, how they packed everything from gear World, deep

33
00:02:01,000 --> 00:02:04,440
Speaker 1: dives on certain gear items, history on gear and how

34
00:02:04,480 --> 00:02:06,440
Speaker 1: it came to be the way it is. You can

35
00:02:06,480 --> 00:02:09,200
Speaker 1: go on over and pick that show up and subscribe

36
00:02:09,240 --> 00:02:10,560
Speaker 1: to it and it will be served to you on

37
00:02:10,639 --> 00:02:20,560
Speaker 1: its own feed. Gear Talk Podcast. All right, you know

38
00:02:20,600 --> 00:02:24,640
Speaker 1: what's annoying. It's yesterday. My wife comes in the house.

39
00:02:26,120 --> 00:02:28,200
Speaker 1: First thing out of her mouth, I heard you heard

40
00:02:28,240 --> 00:02:33,280
Speaker 1: you don't have a very good grip strength. First thing

41
00:02:33,720 --> 00:02:36,160
Speaker 1: that that was the So she ran into a couple

42
00:02:36,200 --> 00:02:38,000
Speaker 1: of guys before she saw me. That was her number

43
00:02:38,000 --> 00:02:43,640
Speaker 1: one takeaway from our day. It's just something you can

44
00:02:43,720 --> 00:02:48,600
Speaker 1: work on. Maybe you know I'm holding it's a Jamaar

45
00:02:48,720 --> 00:02:54,639
Speaker 1: plus by Samson's Preston and tell us about this thing,

46
00:02:55,200 --> 00:02:57,240
Speaker 1: tell us why you have this, and then we'll get

47
00:02:57,280 --> 00:03:00,400
Speaker 1: into greater detail. Yeah. So that's a device that allows

48
00:03:00,480 --> 00:03:03,200
Speaker 1: us to measure the strength of your grip. And we

49
00:03:03,240 --> 00:03:05,680
Speaker 1: have another one in the box there for pinch strength.

50
00:03:05,880 --> 00:03:08,200
Speaker 1: And what we want to do when we do tests

51
00:03:08,240 --> 00:03:12,800
Speaker 1: involving cutting, we're really interested in understanding the tools and

52
00:03:12,919 --> 00:03:16,320
Speaker 1: not so much the butcher using the tools, and so

53
00:03:16,360 --> 00:03:19,320
Speaker 1: we measure the strength of butchers and their grip strength

54
00:03:19,360 --> 00:03:22,480
Speaker 1: and their pin strength, so we can control for that

55
00:03:22,600 --> 00:03:25,600
Speaker 1: in our tests. So if we're looking at two different tools,

56
00:03:26,160 --> 00:03:28,520
Speaker 1: we want to make sure that the difference we see

57
00:03:28,680 --> 00:03:31,200
Speaker 1: is not due to different butchers, but because of the

58
00:03:31,320 --> 00:03:34,200
Speaker 1: two different tools. And what's the highest score you've ever

59
00:03:34,240 --> 00:03:36,960
Speaker 1: seen throwing on this? It might have been yesterday really

60
00:03:37,120 --> 00:03:45,320
Speaker 1: with John I think you got into the sixties. He

61
00:03:45,480 --> 00:03:49,400
Speaker 1: just edged Clay and I out. Everybody introduced themselves Real

62
00:03:49,480 --> 00:03:53,800
Speaker 1: Quick Spencer, Spencer new are Thy host media Trivia. I

63
00:03:53,880 --> 00:03:57,320
Speaker 1: was part of the experiment yesterday. I'm met in air

64
00:03:57,400 --> 00:04:00,840
Speaker 1: and I'm an archaeologist at Kent State University. Yeah, Clay

65
00:04:00,920 --> 00:04:04,360
Speaker 1: nwcom here. Yeah, I was a part of the big

66
00:04:04,400 --> 00:04:07,160
Speaker 1: fiasco we had yesterday too. I guess we're gonna tell

67
00:04:07,200 --> 00:04:09,200
Speaker 1: about that. I wasn't sure if we were. Oh, we'll

68
00:04:09,200 --> 00:04:11,320
Speaker 1: get into that, okay, But I want to settled. I

69
00:04:11,360 --> 00:04:15,840
Speaker 1: want to explain something about my low score. Ye. Dave Meltzer,

70
00:04:15,960 --> 00:04:19,880
Speaker 1: archaeologist SMBU in Dallas, John Hayes from Hayes Tax from

71
00:04:19,920 --> 00:04:22,960
Speaker 1: the studio, and I also took part in the experiment yesterday.

72
00:04:23,640 --> 00:04:26,479
Speaker 1: Why do you got? Why do why are you sometimes

73
00:04:26,520 --> 00:04:30,440
Speaker 1: an anthropologist and sometimes an archaeologist. Well, so archaeology is

74
00:04:30,440 --> 00:04:35,120
Speaker 1: within anthropology, and so yeah, my degrees are Actually there's

75
00:04:35,160 --> 00:04:38,400
Speaker 1: a flow chart. Yeah. Well, there's four subdisciplines, is what

76
00:04:38,480 --> 00:04:44,640
Speaker 1: there is. Archaeology, biological anthropology, linguistics, and socio cultural anthropology

77
00:04:45,080 --> 00:04:48,080
Speaker 1: all live under I'll live under the umbrella of anthropology.

78
00:04:48,120 --> 00:04:50,919
Speaker 1: We're all studying humans in one form or another. Is

79
00:04:50,960 --> 00:04:54,799
Speaker 1: it agreed upon that those are like the four subdisciplines

80
00:04:54,880 --> 00:04:59,200
Speaker 1: of anthropology traditionally? Yeah? Absolutely. Could you go through those again?

81
00:04:59,760 --> 00:05:01,960
Speaker 1: Our theology, which is what Mett and I do. We

82
00:05:02,000 --> 00:05:06,040
Speaker 1: study people in the past. Biological anthropology which looks at

83
00:05:06,400 --> 00:05:10,920
Speaker 1: human variation human evolution from a physical biological point of view.

84
00:05:11,240 --> 00:05:16,839
Speaker 1: Linguistics study language, and socio cultural is looking at culture

85
00:05:16,960 --> 00:05:23,440
Speaker 1: societies around the world. M I had no idea. Archaeology

86
00:05:23,480 --> 00:05:29,320
Speaker 1: is the cool one though. All archaeologists are anthropologists, but

87
00:05:29,360 --> 00:05:33,640
Speaker 1: not all anthropologists are archaeologist. That's exactly right, Okay, So anyhow,

88
00:05:34,720 --> 00:05:37,720
Speaker 1: here's the important part of this whole thing. We had

89
00:05:37,720 --> 00:05:41,120
Speaker 1: to measure grip strength yesterday because we we'll get into

90
00:05:41,120 --> 00:05:45,719
Speaker 1: greater details. We butchered an entire buffalo yesterday, fresh dead,

91
00:05:46,400 --> 00:05:50,640
Speaker 1: using stone tools, one of which is laying in front

92
00:05:50,680 --> 00:05:57,080
Speaker 1: of us right now in my hands are full. I

93
00:05:57,120 --> 00:05:59,040
Speaker 1: didn't know how bad it was, so I took a shower,

94
00:06:00,040 --> 00:06:07,360
Speaker 1: m battered, yes, full of cuts. Yeah, and I'm gonna

95
00:06:07,360 --> 00:06:09,800
Speaker 1: get ahead of ourselves for second. To address this one issue.

96
00:06:11,240 --> 00:06:15,919
Speaker 1: Archaeological sites, really old Clovis sites, you guys, find what

97
00:06:16,680 --> 00:06:19,479
Speaker 1: one might deduce would be a knife made from a

98
00:06:19,520 --> 00:06:23,559
Speaker 1: flake that is sharp all the way around it. Yeah,

99
00:06:23,720 --> 00:06:28,200
Speaker 1: all the time. But the Neanderthals are smart and they

100
00:06:28,240 --> 00:06:31,640
Speaker 1: knew to make a dull side for your finger. Well

101
00:06:31,640 --> 00:06:35,200
Speaker 1: in the Middle Paleolithic sort of the time of the Neanderthals. Yeah,

102
00:06:35,200 --> 00:06:38,320
Speaker 1: they would do what's called backing, and they would chip

103
00:06:38,320 --> 00:06:41,360
Speaker 1: away one side to to make it dull such that

104
00:06:41,440 --> 00:06:43,479
Speaker 1: they could rest their hand on it. We don't really

105
00:06:43,480 --> 00:06:48,640
Speaker 1: see that in on Clovis flakes, um, but they might

106
00:06:48,640 --> 00:06:51,200
Speaker 1: have been using some sort of leather to protect their

107
00:06:51,240 --> 00:06:55,200
Speaker 1: hands or something. M hmm. It's gonna eventually emerge that

108
00:06:55,360 --> 00:07:01,440
Speaker 1: the Neanderthals had phones and stuff. One because every day

109
00:07:01,600 --> 00:07:03,839
Speaker 1: there's a thing we've talked. Every day there's a thing like, oh,

110
00:07:03,880 --> 00:07:08,000
Speaker 1: it turns out they were gentle artists, you know, And

111
00:07:08,160 --> 00:07:13,160
Speaker 1: it turns out they right, they just get like smarter smarter. Well,

112
00:07:13,400 --> 00:07:16,000
Speaker 1: I mean, we were able to interbreed with them, so

113
00:07:16,160 --> 00:07:19,520
Speaker 1: they're still alive and in some sense, I think in

114
00:07:19,640 --> 00:07:25,160
Speaker 1: about two to of human DNA human genomes, because ste

115
00:07:25,320 --> 00:07:28,640
Speaker 1: doesn't have too much. I came in low, which couldn't

116
00:07:28,640 --> 00:07:32,840
Speaker 1: explain my little grips, right, I came in sub. I

117
00:07:32,920 --> 00:07:39,480
Speaker 1: came in like subpar on Neanderthal Uh okay, So we

118
00:07:39,520 --> 00:07:42,119
Speaker 1: had to do grip strength and I had to go first,

119
00:07:42,160 --> 00:07:45,960
Speaker 1: so I didn't have a technique, and then I was

120
00:07:46,080 --> 00:07:51,080
Speaker 1: kind of going for like a long right, a long

121
00:07:51,320 --> 00:07:56,520
Speaker 1: sustained grip and then John got though. Mr high score

122
00:07:56,560 --> 00:07:59,320
Speaker 1: here just got up and did just like an explosive

123
00:07:59,480 --> 00:08:05,560
Speaker 1: scrash explow some spam them strength. You've used his technique

124
00:08:05,600 --> 00:08:11,280
Speaker 1: and we'll test it again. A lift that up? Okay,

125
00:08:11,440 --> 00:08:14,040
Speaker 1: got you got into the sixties. Now what number would

126
00:08:14,040 --> 00:08:16,920
Speaker 1: you be satisfied at? Like forties? What number would you

127
00:08:16,920 --> 00:08:19,800
Speaker 1: be satisfied with? This time? The strongest grip in the room.

128
00:08:20,280 --> 00:08:22,800
Speaker 1: So you want to you want to hit seventy. So

129
00:08:23,480 --> 00:08:25,480
Speaker 1: you're gonna have to hit test before you do it.

130
00:08:26,320 --> 00:08:28,760
Speaker 1: And you were doing it on the third notch, third notch,

131
00:08:29,800 --> 00:08:37,040
Speaker 1: So I was pretty low yesterday, the lowest. How did

132
00:08:37,040 --> 00:08:41,560
Speaker 1: you throw up sixty nine on this? Okay, ready, now

133
00:08:41,559 --> 00:08:44,199
Speaker 1: you're gonna hear you see some things you might not

134
00:08:44,360 --> 00:08:48,920
Speaker 1: want to test again because if you wait too long.

135
00:08:49,320 --> 00:09:03,360
Speaker 1: Yeah zero, that's not the sound of redemption. Okay, ready,

136
00:09:03,320 --> 00:09:15,640
Speaker 1: yeah damnit zo set and my hands all caught up

137
00:09:16,000 --> 00:09:19,960
Speaker 1: from the flint plates. All right, here we go, So

138
00:09:20,160 --> 00:09:23,520
Speaker 1: try reset and then really hit test and then it'll

139
00:09:23,559 --> 00:09:28,080
Speaker 1: it'll go cool. Wait, you're testing your right hand, which

140
00:09:28,120 --> 00:09:30,520
Speaker 1: is not your dominant hand. Well, that's part of the problem.

141
00:09:30,559 --> 00:09:31,959
Speaker 1: I didn't want to get I don't know how much

142
00:09:32,000 --> 00:09:34,080
Speaker 1: people want to hear about it. But I'm I'm I

143
00:09:34,200 --> 00:09:37,000
Speaker 1: used to be ambidexterous as a kid, so I settled

144
00:09:37,000 --> 00:09:39,280
Speaker 1: in on some things I do, laugh some things I

145
00:09:39,320 --> 00:09:43,120
Speaker 1: do right, So you'd really want to, in all fairness,

146
00:09:43,120 --> 00:09:44,800
Speaker 1: you'd really want to measure both my hands and make

147
00:09:44,800 --> 00:09:52,600
Speaker 1: an average well know, because I make it lower. Do

148
00:09:52,679 --> 00:09:56,400
Speaker 1: reset and test real quick, really pushing test all right?

149
00:09:56,400 --> 00:10:06,959
Speaker 1: So ah huh six now you hit spencer. Man, we're

150
00:10:07,000 --> 00:10:10,880
Speaker 1: doing it in the place you did you good yesterday?

151
00:10:10,960 --> 00:10:18,400
Speaker 1: Didn't see That's the thing, man, if that machine was

152
00:10:18,440 --> 00:10:21,640
Speaker 1: any good, you'd enter your age in and it'd like

153
00:10:21,880 --> 00:10:32,800
Speaker 1: palibrate like handicaps. Bison doesn't care how you prolonged. All right,

154
00:10:32,840 --> 00:10:35,760
Speaker 1: I'm gonna stand up. Is it ready to go? So

155
00:10:35,800 --> 00:10:38,000
Speaker 1: you guys, you guys didn't stand up to hit it,

156
00:10:38,440 --> 00:10:42,000
Speaker 1: just hit tests reset and and then tests reset and

157
00:10:42,040 --> 00:10:51,559
Speaker 1: then test okay, reset and then test okay fifty nine

158
00:10:51,600 --> 00:10:57,959
Speaker 1: point six. I'm gonna make you guys feel real good

159
00:10:58,080 --> 00:11:04,280
Speaker 1: right now. Hold on, you felt you came in hotter yesterday?

160
00:11:04,840 --> 00:11:18,520
Speaker 1: Sixty two two? Who dialing the chords in and stuff?

161
00:11:20,280 --> 00:11:29,240
Speaker 1: Training my whole life apparently, Yeah, just squeeze it and

162
00:11:29,320 --> 00:11:40,920
Speaker 1: you make a girl you got a growl. Well, if

163
00:11:40,960 --> 00:11:45,320
Speaker 1: you hit him with two fists, it'll count sixty. I'm

164
00:11:45,360 --> 00:11:51,760
Speaker 1: gonna pass this on to my John. Here comes the one.

165
00:11:52,720 --> 00:11:57,640
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, yeah, sixty one. So you didn't you didn't

166
00:11:57,640 --> 00:12:02,679
Speaker 1: do as good as you did yesterday. You're come on,

167
00:12:02,840 --> 00:12:08,880
Speaker 1: John seven, strongest man in the room. See, I don't

168
00:12:09,120 --> 00:12:14,440
Speaker 1: trust this machine. Now, how could my group have gotten

169
00:12:14,480 --> 00:12:18,240
Speaker 1: so much stronger overnight? It's hey, I think it's a

170
00:12:18,240 --> 00:12:22,520
Speaker 1: lot about technique, I really do. I'll hand that back

171
00:12:22,520 --> 00:12:25,160
Speaker 1: to you. And what other industries use that, because, no

172
00:12:25,160 --> 00:12:28,559
Speaker 1: doubt they don't make that for archaeologists. So physical therapy,

173
00:12:28,960 --> 00:12:31,439
Speaker 1: uh in doctors and stuff they'll use to see how

174
00:12:31,480 --> 00:12:36,680
Speaker 1: people's hands are improving if they were injured. Ergonomics as well,

175
00:12:36,800 --> 00:12:40,040
Speaker 1: so just designing knife handles or steering wheels or all

176
00:12:40,040 --> 00:12:42,199
Speaker 1: that sort of stuff that you need to grip. That's

177
00:12:42,240 --> 00:12:43,840
Speaker 1: what this kind of machine is for. And you guys

178
00:12:43,840 --> 00:12:45,720
Speaker 1: have a pinch tester too. We have a pinch tester

179
00:12:45,880 --> 00:12:49,200
Speaker 1: and everyone hates the pinch tester because it's awkward. Yeah,

180
00:12:49,320 --> 00:12:53,280
Speaker 1: it's real awkward. What other kind of when you're doing studies?

181
00:12:53,800 --> 00:12:56,040
Speaker 1: What other kind of do you ever have? Anything we

182
00:12:56,040 --> 00:12:58,280
Speaker 1: need to like bite strength or anything like that, or

183
00:12:58,679 --> 00:13:01,520
Speaker 1: we've never done bite strength it. Um. That would actually

184
00:13:01,559 --> 00:13:06,480
Speaker 1: be interesting because Neanderthal teeth are worn down because they

185
00:13:06,600 --> 00:13:10,440
Speaker 1: used their mouths as almost a third hand to grip stuff.

186
00:13:11,000 --> 00:13:12,760
Speaker 1: And so we can when we look at the indertal

187
00:13:13,120 --> 00:13:16,400
Speaker 1: teeth and skeletons. Uh, all of their front teeth are

188
00:13:16,400 --> 00:13:20,160
Speaker 1: just completely gone because they're holding you know, leather or

189
00:13:20,520 --> 00:13:22,880
Speaker 1: meat in their teeth, holding the other part of it

190
00:13:22,920 --> 00:13:25,400
Speaker 1: in their hand, and then they've got a knife in

191
00:13:25,440 --> 00:13:29,240
Speaker 1: their free hand to cut. So bite strength with the indertals,

192
00:13:29,559 --> 00:13:32,920
Speaker 1: are you deducing that all based upon toothwaar? Yeah, toothwar

193
00:13:33,280 --> 00:13:37,520
Speaker 1: already all have some video. Oh no, no video. The

194
00:13:37,559 --> 00:13:39,880
Speaker 1: thing about me is I'm a Neanderthal and this is

195
00:13:39,960 --> 00:13:46,640
Speaker 1: my uh, here's no very interesting. Here's a no thing

196
00:13:46,720 --> 00:13:48,760
Speaker 1: we talked about yesterday that I wanted to get your

197
00:13:48,760 --> 00:13:50,360
Speaker 1: feedback on, and you'd heard of it, but I want

198
00:13:50,400 --> 00:13:54,440
Speaker 1: to hear more of how you guys have heard of it. Um.

199
00:13:54,520 --> 00:14:00,200
Speaker 1: We recently had a Coronado expedition expert on and she

200
00:14:00,240 --> 00:14:02,400
Speaker 1: had found a number of she'd found a number of

201
00:14:02,440 --> 00:14:07,480
Speaker 1: Coronado sites in the US that in preparation for that

202
00:14:07,559 --> 00:14:11,160
Speaker 1: interview I was reading, Um, I can't remember a guy's name.

203
00:14:11,200 --> 00:14:14,640
Speaker 1: He's kind of he's frustrating to read. But he wrote Coronado,

204
00:14:15,360 --> 00:14:20,200
Speaker 1: Night of the Pueblos and plane Planes. Yeah, classic volume. Yeah,

205
00:14:20,720 --> 00:14:25,160
Speaker 1: irritating author. It was, yeah, yeah, it's just like he

206
00:14:25,320 --> 00:14:31,040
Speaker 1: really uh went he went out of his way to

207
00:14:31,120 --> 00:14:35,080
Speaker 1: be like, well, you see, it wasn't that unusual to

208
00:14:35,160 --> 00:14:38,000
Speaker 1: come into a village and cut everybody's hand off. You know,

209
00:14:38,400 --> 00:14:41,760
Speaker 1: this is you gotta remember the times, right, You're like,

210
00:14:42,040 --> 00:14:48,760
Speaker 1: that seems a little excessive even accounting for the times. However, um,

211
00:14:48,840 --> 00:14:52,440
Speaker 1: and there were many chroniclers of the expedition who later,

212
00:14:52,640 --> 00:14:55,080
Speaker 1: you know, it's hard to keep track of who. You know,

213
00:14:55,160 --> 00:14:56,840
Speaker 1: some guy twenty years later he's like, oh and I

214
00:14:56,880 --> 00:15:00,000
Speaker 1: remember this, and anyhow you can put together a pretty

215
00:15:00,080 --> 00:15:03,280
Speaker 1: good idea of what went on. But um, of of

216
00:15:03,400 --> 00:15:07,160
Speaker 1: little interest to Coronado experts, but of interest to me.

217
00:15:07,560 --> 00:15:11,560
Speaker 1: As they encounter some bison hunters in the if I

218
00:15:11,600 --> 00:15:15,680
Speaker 1: remember right, they were on the Yano Esticado the Texas Payhandle,

219
00:15:16,440 --> 00:15:19,920
Speaker 1: and they encounter some bison hunters and they are they

220
00:15:19,920 --> 00:15:25,320
Speaker 1: have dogs. It's pre horse. They have dogs. Um. They

221
00:15:25,400 --> 00:15:33,680
Speaker 1: had had no personal contact with Europeans. They remarked. The

222
00:15:33,720 --> 00:15:39,000
Speaker 1: Coronado people remarked on how un blown away they were.

223
00:15:39,640 --> 00:15:43,200
Speaker 1: They asked them, what are you? And then they had

224
00:15:43,240 --> 00:15:45,760
Speaker 1: described how they would when they're skinning bison. They would

225
00:15:45,760 --> 00:15:50,480
Speaker 1: sharpen stone tools with their teeth. I had never heard that,

226
00:15:50,640 --> 00:15:53,120
Speaker 1: But you've seen and heard of that. Yeah, I mean

227
00:15:53,160 --> 00:15:56,720
Speaker 1: I've there's all sorts of interesting and unique ways to

228
00:15:57,120 --> 00:16:00,280
Speaker 1: re sharpened tools or to make tools, and yeah, you

229
00:16:00,320 --> 00:16:03,840
Speaker 1: can do it, especially on really thin edges. Um does

230
00:16:03,880 --> 00:16:06,280
Speaker 1: that that's got to show up in the on the

231
00:16:06,360 --> 00:16:09,080
Speaker 1: dental ware of someone. I suppose it just depends on

232
00:16:09,080 --> 00:16:11,440
Speaker 1: how often you do it. Um. But what do they

233
00:16:11,440 --> 00:16:14,640
Speaker 1: even mean by sharpened tools of your teeth? Well, I mean,

234
00:16:14,720 --> 00:16:17,280
Speaker 1: we got a flake right here I can demonstrate now.

235
00:16:18,120 --> 00:16:20,440
Speaker 1: But uh, you know, when you've got an edge that's

236
00:16:20,560 --> 00:16:25,040
Speaker 1: fairly thin, if you just can basically just push off

237
00:16:25,080 --> 00:16:27,880
Speaker 1: a couple of flakes with your teeth, just pushing off

238
00:16:27,920 --> 00:16:33,000
Speaker 1: those tiny little chips will resharpen that edge and your

239
00:16:33,080 --> 00:16:35,640
Speaker 1: mouth like you but then you're imagine you're using your

240
00:16:35,640 --> 00:16:38,760
Speaker 1: eye teeth, but then your mouth is full of well

241
00:16:38,800 --> 00:16:41,080
Speaker 1: I think in the past people would have been used

242
00:16:41,080 --> 00:16:43,760
Speaker 1: to having stuff in their food, and we don't see

243
00:16:44,040 --> 00:16:46,600
Speaker 1: like teeth getting worn down. Well, a couple of thoughts.

244
00:16:46,640 --> 00:16:49,320
Speaker 1: One is that you ought to see probably micro cracks

245
00:16:49,560 --> 00:16:51,720
Speaker 1: and the enamel if somebody is doing that on a

246
00:16:51,760 --> 00:16:54,240
Speaker 1: regular basis. The other thing is is that when you

247
00:16:54,400 --> 00:16:58,080
Speaker 1: have groups that are in areas well. For one thing,

248
00:16:58,120 --> 00:17:01,960
Speaker 1: farmers who are grinding corn and and matats, all sorts

249
00:17:02,000 --> 00:17:04,919
Speaker 1: of mineral matter gets in their food, in their corn,

250
00:17:05,200 --> 00:17:07,879
Speaker 1: and it does tend to wear down the molars in

251
00:17:07,960 --> 00:17:12,240
Speaker 1: the back hunter gatherers um that lived on the planes

252
00:17:12,400 --> 00:17:14,359
Speaker 1: during the Middle Holo scene, when you had just a

253
00:17:14,400 --> 00:17:18,000
Speaker 1: whole lot of dust blowing, heavily worn teeth as well

254
00:17:18,119 --> 00:17:19,639
Speaker 1: for the same reason, right, you just got a lot

255
00:17:19,640 --> 00:17:22,600
Speaker 1: of grit in the diet. We were talking yesterday a

256
00:17:22,600 --> 00:17:25,800
Speaker 1: little bit about um this is also sort of on

257
00:17:25,880 --> 00:17:29,119
Speaker 1: the edge of our primary activity yesterday, but we were talking,

258
00:17:29,600 --> 00:17:33,760
Speaker 1: we were making jokes about that, like me at forty eight,

259
00:17:35,640 --> 00:17:38,600
Speaker 1: I probably wouldn't have been there. And I know you said,

260
00:17:38,600 --> 00:17:43,440
Speaker 1: like as like the Clovis people's and you said, I

261
00:17:43,440 --> 00:17:46,320
Speaker 1: guess rightfully. So he said, we don't know because there's

262
00:17:46,359 --> 00:17:48,800
Speaker 1: not enough. You know, you don't have a bunch of

263
00:17:48,840 --> 00:17:53,280
Speaker 1: skeletons laying around to determine, to accurately determine like where

264
00:17:53,320 --> 00:17:56,399
Speaker 1: the holes are in sort of the age demographics. But

265
00:17:56,520 --> 00:17:59,760
Speaker 1: what are what are some thoughts on hunter gatherer life expectancies.

266
00:18:00,160 --> 00:18:03,159
Speaker 1: Probably in the forties would be my guess, what is

267
00:18:03,200 --> 00:18:08,480
Speaker 1: happening to them? Just a lifetime of um being out

268
00:18:09,000 --> 00:18:13,320
Speaker 1: all the time, having to uh hunt for your meals,

269
00:18:13,640 --> 00:18:16,080
Speaker 1: track down those bison. Those bison that way a hell

270
00:18:16,080 --> 00:18:17,280
Speaker 1: of a lot more than the one that we were

271
00:18:17,280 --> 00:18:20,560
Speaker 1: butchering yesterday, even though we were butchering a fairly large animal. Right,

272
00:18:21,040 --> 00:18:23,399
Speaker 1: so you think it was it would have been like

273
00:18:23,440 --> 00:18:30,359
Speaker 1: a no medical care, Yeah, right, good point. Things that

274
00:18:30,359 --> 00:18:37,200
Speaker 1: would be like appendicitis, appendicitis, tooth infection, abscess too abscessed tooth.

275
00:18:37,280 --> 00:18:40,520
Speaker 1: There you go. Um, so any number of things. Which

276
00:18:40,560 --> 00:18:44,480
Speaker 1: is not to say that they were unaware of or

277
00:18:44,800 --> 00:18:46,840
Speaker 1: lack knowledge of medicinal plants. I mean, one of the

278
00:18:46,840 --> 00:18:49,520
Speaker 1: things that's really striking is that a lot of the

279
00:18:49,560 --> 00:18:52,120
Speaker 1: medicinal plants that we are discovering today we're already known

280
00:18:52,160 --> 00:18:55,640
Speaker 1: ethnographically uh and could have been known for a very

281
00:18:55,720 --> 00:19:00,320
Speaker 1: very long time. So while they were quite capable, um,

282
00:19:00,359 --> 00:19:03,200
Speaker 1: there were probably things medical emergencies that would have been

283
00:19:03,240 --> 00:19:06,520
Speaker 1: simply beyond their ability. I guess it would have been

284
00:19:06,560 --> 00:19:10,000
Speaker 1: almost a statistical issue too, that by the time you

285
00:19:10,000 --> 00:19:14,520
Speaker 1: were in your mid forties or whenever, it's just time

286
00:19:14,600 --> 00:19:17,080
Speaker 1: for something bad to happen, you know what I mean.

287
00:19:17,240 --> 00:19:21,119
Speaker 1: It's just the amount of exposure to physical risk of

288
00:19:21,320 --> 00:19:25,720
Speaker 1: hunting these big animals, crossing rivers, falling off cliffs. Right,

289
00:19:26,240 --> 00:19:30,800
Speaker 1: Disease just just random things, random things, um that you

290
00:19:30,920 --> 00:19:33,840
Speaker 1: just came on suddenly and you just couldn't cope for

291
00:19:33,880 --> 00:19:36,360
Speaker 1: any number of reasons, right. I mean, we live very

292
00:19:36,400 --> 00:19:38,919
Speaker 1: cushioned lives and we've got lots of fail safe and

293
00:19:38,960 --> 00:19:43,160
Speaker 1: backup systems. There were no backup systems. Is there any

294
00:19:43,200 --> 00:19:47,479
Speaker 1: way to guess with with ice age hunters? Is there

295
00:19:47,480 --> 00:19:51,520
Speaker 1: any way to guess when, like what what was a

296
00:19:51,640 --> 00:19:57,359
Speaker 1: peak reproductive age for females? Uh? I do not know

297
00:19:57,440 --> 00:20:00,160
Speaker 1: the answer to that. But actually, let me add one

298
00:20:00,280 --> 00:20:03,080
Speaker 1: thing to what I was just saying about how tough

299
00:20:03,119 --> 00:20:05,359
Speaker 1: life was. One of the things that's come out of

300
00:20:05,359 --> 00:20:10,359
Speaker 1: the recent genomic evidence, the DNA evidence, is that between

301
00:20:10,400 --> 00:20:13,920
Speaker 1: about sixteen thousand and about thirteen thousand years ago, there

302
00:20:14,000 --> 00:20:19,520
Speaker 1: was a sixtyfold increase in population of people in the Americas.

303
00:20:19,560 --> 00:20:21,600
Speaker 1: So what that's telling you is that when they got

304
00:20:21,640 --> 00:20:25,280
Speaker 1: into this new continent, actually things were pretty darn good. Now.

305
00:20:25,320 --> 00:20:27,760
Speaker 1: I don't know what the start value was, you know,

306
00:20:27,840 --> 00:20:29,959
Speaker 1: was it a hundred people and you know multiply that

307
00:20:30,359 --> 00:20:32,680
Speaker 1: or was it a thousand people? But the fact that

308
00:20:32,680 --> 00:20:36,639
Speaker 1: that population increased so rapidly in such a relatively short

309
00:20:36,680 --> 00:20:40,000
Speaker 1: period of time tells you that they were actually quite

310
00:20:40,040 --> 00:20:44,399
Speaker 1: successful at moving into this new environment. Obviously, things are

311
00:20:44,440 --> 00:20:46,400
Speaker 1: going to plateau, and again you still have those sort

312
00:20:46,440 --> 00:20:49,600
Speaker 1: of random events that will come after a lifetime of

313
00:20:49,720 --> 00:20:54,960
Speaker 1: hard living, but overall, the population was really quite successful.

314
00:20:55,720 --> 00:21:02,000
Speaker 1: The there's a new book uh coming out by a

315
00:21:02,160 --> 00:21:07,120
Speaker 1: historian named Dan Flores, and he has a chapter um

316
00:21:07,160 --> 00:21:11,080
Speaker 1: called Clovincia the Beautiful, and he has a chapter about

317
00:21:11,240 --> 00:21:13,679
Speaker 1: a little bit about what's known about Clovis and then

318
00:21:13,880 --> 00:21:18,280
Speaker 1: speculations about Clovis and the mysteries of Clovis. And in

319
00:21:18,400 --> 00:21:24,960
Speaker 1: there he has a observation that that, you know, a

320
00:21:25,119 --> 00:21:30,200
Speaker 1: theory that I had considered, um, when looking at how

321
00:21:30,280 --> 00:21:32,720
Speaker 1: quickly the Clovis hunters seem to have been able to

322
00:21:32,760 --> 00:21:35,560
Speaker 1: colonize new country, you could you bring up this idea

323
00:21:35,560 --> 00:21:39,679
Speaker 1: of why and then I've read what people would say.

324
00:21:39,760 --> 00:21:41,600
Speaker 1: You know, you can't rule out that there was an

325
00:21:41,600 --> 00:21:45,879
Speaker 1: element of curiosity. Um. Oftentimes you'll see huge migrations of

326
00:21:45,920 --> 00:21:50,240
Speaker 1: people that are propelled by hunger, propelled by warfare and um,

327
00:21:50,320 --> 00:21:52,920
Speaker 1: and you know, and there's not correct me if I'm wrong,

328
00:21:52,960 --> 00:21:56,480
Speaker 1: there's not like evidence of it being warfare propelling the thing.

329
00:21:56,840 --> 00:22:00,399
Speaker 1: And he brings up he he talks about these various

330
00:22:00,440 --> 00:22:05,280
Speaker 1: cases of of known times in the more recent historic

331
00:22:05,359 --> 00:22:12,840
Speaker 1: record where people have stumbled upon islands say that had

332
00:22:12,880 --> 00:22:16,080
Speaker 1: never had humans on them. And and so like the

333
00:22:16,560 --> 00:22:19,240
Speaker 1: whalers in from the eight hundreds who would land on

334
00:22:19,280 --> 00:22:21,359
Speaker 1: these islands and there's no human record on the islands,

335
00:22:21,359 --> 00:22:25,399
Speaker 1: and they would talk about literally walking up in and

336
00:22:25,840 --> 00:22:33,480
Speaker 1: lifting birds, plucking birds like fruit from trees, or just

337
00:22:33,560 --> 00:22:36,440
Speaker 1: being able to walk up, you know, with tortoises, you

338
00:22:36,840 --> 00:22:40,720
Speaker 1: walk up and simply load them onto the boat. Um.

339
00:22:42,040 --> 00:22:45,440
Speaker 1: Animals that couldn't even comprehend what they were. And then

340
00:22:45,720 --> 00:22:48,440
Speaker 1: you look at a place where you go to Yellowstone Park,

341
00:22:48,520 --> 00:22:52,800
Speaker 1: where it hasn't been there that you've had a hundred

342
00:22:52,920 --> 00:22:56,320
Speaker 1: year a hundred plus year absence of human hunting on

343
00:22:56,400 --> 00:22:59,600
Speaker 1: that landscape. So only that's only one years of an

344
00:22:59,600 --> 00:23:03,400
Speaker 1: absence human honey, because not very long. But you can

345
00:23:03,600 --> 00:23:08,800
Speaker 1: get remarkably close to wildlife there that is not used

346
00:23:08,840 --> 00:23:11,280
Speaker 1: to human predation. And he throws out this idea that

347
00:23:11,440 --> 00:23:15,960
Speaker 1: perhaps what propelled you along really quickly is the minute

348
00:23:16,040 --> 00:23:20,320
Speaker 1: something got hard and you went a few miles yonder

349
00:23:21,280 --> 00:23:23,879
Speaker 1: there were animals that had never seen a human predator before.

350
00:23:24,280 --> 00:23:26,439
Speaker 1: Just keep chasing the dumb ones, and so yeah, like

351
00:23:26,760 --> 00:23:29,359
Speaker 1: why is you do? You hunt for your while in

352
00:23:29,400 --> 00:23:31,159
Speaker 1: a place for a while, and ship gets kind of like,

353
00:23:31,320 --> 00:23:33,360
Speaker 1: I don't about these guys walking up to me anymore.

354
00:23:33,880 --> 00:23:36,800
Speaker 1: Bump along, and then you're back into a place where

355
00:23:36,800 --> 00:23:39,920
Speaker 1: you can just have it pretty easy. And that might

356
00:23:39,960 --> 00:23:45,679
Speaker 1: explain like why you sped through the continent so quick thoughts, Well,

357
00:23:45,720 --> 00:23:47,680
Speaker 1: a couple of things. I mean, one is is that

358
00:23:47,760 --> 00:23:51,480
Speaker 1: these are animals. You're coming into a continent where animals

359
00:23:51,480 --> 00:23:54,080
Speaker 1: have been dealing with some pretty substantial predators for a

360
00:23:54,200 --> 00:23:58,240
Speaker 1: very long time. Right, Mamiths and mastodons have dealt with

361
00:23:58,640 --> 00:24:01,359
Speaker 1: giant short faced bear, saber tooth cats and the like.

362
00:24:01,760 --> 00:24:07,280
Speaker 1: They're not completely asleep at the evolutionary switch, right, Um,

363
00:24:07,440 --> 00:24:09,880
Speaker 1: they know how to deal with predators and they learned

364
00:24:09,960 --> 00:24:15,320
Speaker 1: really quickly. Okay, Uh, would that have work for people? Yeah?

365
00:24:15,400 --> 00:24:18,639
Speaker 1: I mean I suppose the first person in UM is

366
00:24:19,119 --> 00:24:21,280
Speaker 1: going to have that advantage. Is that going to pull

367
00:24:21,359 --> 00:24:26,760
Speaker 1: people from Alaska to Tierra del Fuego? Probably not. Is

368
00:24:26,800 --> 00:24:30,560
Speaker 1: that going to have some sort of local payoff? Well? Yeah? Possibly.

369
00:24:30,840 --> 00:24:33,399
Speaker 1: Resource depression always sets in right as soon as you

370
00:24:33,440 --> 00:24:36,440
Speaker 1: start hunting. The first day of hunting season. The first

371
00:24:36,440 --> 00:24:39,440
Speaker 1: gun that goes off, where are all the elk? Right?

372
00:24:39,480 --> 00:24:43,640
Speaker 1: They're gone? Um? And in the bugle in the bugling

373
00:24:43,640 --> 00:24:47,200
Speaker 1: of the bulls seems to wrap up in a real herd. Yeah. Yeah,

374
00:24:47,240 --> 00:24:51,000
Speaker 1: so animals respond pretty quickly. Um. But back to what

375
00:24:51,040 --> 00:24:54,000
Speaker 1: you said at the outset about curiosity. I mean, one

376
00:24:54,000 --> 00:24:56,479
Speaker 1: of the things about curiosity is that it's actually an

377
00:24:56,480 --> 00:25:00,800
Speaker 1: adaptive strategy. And I probably he said this on this

378
00:25:00,880 --> 00:25:04,280
Speaker 1: show before, but basically, for hunter gatherers is your insurance

379
00:25:04,359 --> 00:25:06,840
Speaker 1: is not knowing what's going on and available where you are.

380
00:25:07,320 --> 00:25:10,320
Speaker 1: It's knowing where you go next when things get bad, right,

381
00:25:11,080 --> 00:25:13,560
Speaker 1: And so by continually kind of looking over the next

382
00:25:13,680 --> 00:25:16,440
Speaker 1: hill and just seeing what's out there and knowing where

383
00:25:16,440 --> 00:25:19,880
Speaker 1: you can go gives you that advantage. So that curiosity

384
00:25:19,920 --> 00:25:22,960
Speaker 1: actually has a built in adaptive function that works really

385
00:25:22,960 --> 00:25:25,920
Speaker 1: well for people on a on a completely unknown new landscape.

386
00:25:26,240 --> 00:25:28,280
Speaker 1: So instead of saying he was curious about what was

387
00:25:28,320 --> 00:25:32,280
Speaker 1: over there, he was scouting. Absolutely absolutely. And you know,

388
00:25:32,640 --> 00:25:34,800
Speaker 1: you got a band, you've got a bunch of teenage

389
00:25:34,840 --> 00:25:37,240
Speaker 1: boys or girls, just say why don't you going to

390
00:25:37,280 --> 00:25:40,080
Speaker 1: walk about? Go look over that hill, see what's in

391
00:25:40,119 --> 00:25:43,880
Speaker 1: that next valley, and come back. You know. The other

392
00:25:43,920 --> 00:25:46,040
Speaker 1: thing is these people weren't looking for a place to

393
00:25:46,080 --> 00:25:49,159
Speaker 1: settle down. I mean, these were these were They weren't

394
00:25:49,200 --> 00:25:53,680
Speaker 1: sedentary agricultural people trying to find the most beautiful valley

395
00:25:53,720 --> 00:25:57,040
Speaker 1: in North America to raise their family, to build a

396
00:25:57,040 --> 00:26:01,399
Speaker 1: log cabin. Now that's it's absolutely right, Clay and and

397
00:26:02,200 --> 00:26:05,040
Speaker 1: but at the same time, they're not like sort of

398
00:26:05,040 --> 00:26:07,439
Speaker 1: fur trappers, you know, going into the Rockies in the

399
00:26:07,520 --> 00:26:10,439
Speaker 1: nineteenth century, where they're just you know, coming in grabbing

400
00:26:10,480 --> 00:26:13,080
Speaker 1: resources and going back out again. They do have to

401
00:26:13,119 --> 00:26:16,080
Speaker 1: make a living, they do have to raise families. Um,

402
00:26:16,119 --> 00:26:19,000
Speaker 1: but these are as, you say, you know, highly mobile people.

403
00:26:19,320 --> 00:26:23,480
Speaker 1: So we're not seeing evidence that they're spending you know,

404
00:26:23,600 --> 00:26:26,880
Speaker 1: more than a few days at a particular camp site

405
00:26:26,960 --> 00:26:29,119
Speaker 1: or maybe in the winter a few months, but then

406
00:26:29,160 --> 00:26:33,080
Speaker 1: they're moving on. Do anthropologists ever consider that there was

407
00:26:33,200 --> 00:26:37,240
Speaker 1: like any sort of strategic reproduction with ancient humans when

408
00:26:37,240 --> 00:26:40,840
Speaker 1: a time that like every calorie mattered, that they would

409
00:26:40,920 --> 00:26:43,639
Speaker 1: do some method like we can't be having babies in

410
00:26:43,680 --> 00:26:48,160
Speaker 1: December because it's just too hard on the mother's uh

411
00:26:48,200 --> 00:26:50,000
Speaker 1: and and the other folks in camp, So we gotta

412
00:26:50,040 --> 00:26:54,400
Speaker 1: have our babies in April, May, June. Um. There's a

413
00:26:54,480 --> 00:26:57,879
Speaker 1: huge complicated literature on that very issue. So you know,

414
00:26:57,920 --> 00:27:00,240
Speaker 1: the answer to your question is, yes, anthropolo is just

415
00:27:00,359 --> 00:27:03,040
Speaker 1: considered it. UM. The other part of the answer is

416
00:27:03,080 --> 00:27:09,040
Speaker 1: can I give you a detailed, easily digestible UM response? Uh? No, No,

417
00:27:09,160 --> 00:27:12,760
Speaker 1: I really can't. Um. We You know, we look at

418
00:27:12,760 --> 00:27:16,159
Speaker 1: modern day hunter gatherer groups and their demographics, and we

419
00:27:16,200 --> 00:27:20,160
Speaker 1: can see certain things, UM, like, for example, the critical

420
00:27:20,240 --> 00:27:24,640
Speaker 1: role of grandparents, right uh. Individuals who are beyond reproductive agent,

421
00:27:24,760 --> 00:27:28,600
Speaker 1: what role do they play in helping families taking some

422
00:27:28,720 --> 00:27:32,200
Speaker 1: of the um the weight as it were, off of

423
00:27:32,440 --> 00:27:35,879
Speaker 1: mom and dad, especially mom in terms of childcare and

424
00:27:35,920 --> 00:27:40,200
Speaker 1: that sort of thing, and contributing beyond their own reproductive years.

425
00:27:40,200 --> 00:27:42,760
Speaker 1: So we do see those kinds of things. What does

426
00:27:42,760 --> 00:27:45,879
Speaker 1: that look like in a pleistocene situation. Really hard to

427
00:27:45,880 --> 00:27:51,600
Speaker 1: tell now, didn't the more modern Native Americans, it's documented

428
00:27:51,640 --> 00:27:54,919
Speaker 1: some of their strategy for for when to have kids.

429
00:27:55,200 --> 00:27:58,959
Speaker 1: I was reading about the Shawnees and pretty much they

430
00:27:59,000 --> 00:28:02,440
Speaker 1: didn't do much pro creating in the early part of

431
00:28:02,480 --> 00:28:04,280
Speaker 1: the year because they didn't want to have babies in

432
00:28:04,320 --> 00:28:07,200
Speaker 1: the winter, and there were they were like times when

433
00:28:07,280 --> 00:28:10,520
Speaker 1: you were permitted to do that, and it also coincided

434
00:28:10,600 --> 00:28:13,480
Speaker 1: with war and hunting, like you didn't want to be

435
00:28:13,560 --> 00:28:16,240
Speaker 1: doing that when you were going hunting either. But yeah,

436
00:28:16,359 --> 00:28:21,280
Speaker 1: but the purpose it was was to have babies during

437
00:28:21,440 --> 00:28:23,119
Speaker 1: optimal times of the year, but that may have been

438
00:28:23,119 --> 00:28:26,119
Speaker 1: a much later, much later thing, right, Yeah, we just

439
00:28:26,400 --> 00:28:28,840
Speaker 1: really don't have any idea about what's going on in

440
00:28:28,840 --> 00:28:31,720
Speaker 1: in ice age times. Have you ever heard the idea

441
00:28:31,840 --> 00:28:37,600
Speaker 1: that uh monogamy was born of the fact that uh

442
00:28:38,640 --> 00:28:44,959
Speaker 1: human females are instead of having like an annual like

443
00:28:45,000 --> 00:28:50,080
Speaker 1: a once a year breeding time, that it's sort of

444
00:28:50,120 --> 00:28:54,400
Speaker 1: like ever present and there's no outward display of of

445
00:28:54,600 --> 00:28:58,960
Speaker 1: when someone's fertile, and so it would cause a male

446
00:28:59,280 --> 00:29:05,160
Speaker 1: to need to stay near his partner year round, year round,

447
00:29:05,640 --> 00:29:07,120
Speaker 1: And it couldn't be that you could just be like

448
00:29:07,160 --> 00:29:09,360
Speaker 1: a bull elk and go hang out with other elk

449
00:29:09,520 --> 00:29:12,200
Speaker 1: for eleven months out of the year and then sort

450
00:29:12,240 --> 00:29:17,560
Speaker 1: of like, yeah, but come September, you'll be back at

451
00:29:17,560 --> 00:29:21,880
Speaker 1: the cabin. But it was yeah, I think I read that.

452
00:29:22,000 --> 00:29:24,480
Speaker 1: I think it was the physiologist Jared Diamond. Its probably

453
00:29:24,560 --> 00:29:26,040
Speaker 1: might be a widely held bleep. I think it was

454
00:29:26,040 --> 00:29:29,720
Speaker 1: the physiologist Jared Diamond had written about what might have

455
00:29:29,920 --> 00:29:35,640
Speaker 1: made um, what might have brought about this, This idea

456
00:29:35,680 --> 00:29:39,440
Speaker 1: of a of a breeding pair human breeding pair that

457
00:29:40,480 --> 00:29:43,760
Speaker 1: stay together in the same place all the time, you know,

458
00:29:44,360 --> 00:29:46,640
Speaker 1: and that we don't split apart and come back for

459
00:29:46,720 --> 00:29:49,880
Speaker 1: like breeding season. That actually speaks to the what's called

460
00:29:49,880 --> 00:29:53,520
Speaker 1: the provisioning hypothesis, which is actually proposed by one of

461
00:29:53,520 --> 00:29:56,959
Speaker 1: my Kent State colleagues, oh and love Joy. And the

462
00:29:56,960 --> 00:30:00,120
Speaker 1: other half of that hypothesis is that it's not that

463
00:30:00,200 --> 00:30:04,960
Speaker 1: males are always staying by females. It's that we potentially

464
00:30:04,960 --> 00:30:09,200
Speaker 1: evolved to be bipedal such that males would have free

465
00:30:09,320 --> 00:30:13,200
Speaker 1: arms to go get resources for the females and bring

466
00:30:13,280 --> 00:30:17,440
Speaker 1: them back um, and that way the female can keep

467
00:30:17,440 --> 00:30:19,480
Speaker 1: track of the kids and take care of them. So

468
00:30:20,280 --> 00:30:24,120
Speaker 1: monogamy not only is for sort of the mom and

469
00:30:24,160 --> 00:30:26,960
Speaker 1: the dad, but it allows the male to go and

470
00:30:27,280 --> 00:30:30,320
Speaker 1: get food such that his offspring will have a better

471
00:30:30,400 --> 00:30:38,200
Speaker 1: chance of surviving. Earlier, you mentioned, uh can somehow it

472
00:30:38,200 --> 00:30:40,200
Speaker 1: came out I thought would be a great spring off point.

473
00:30:40,240 --> 00:30:45,040
Speaker 1: You'd mentioned like teenage female teenage females that you mentioned

474
00:30:45,040 --> 00:30:48,320
Speaker 1: that I mentioned just teenagers, right, they got a lot

475
00:30:48,320 --> 00:30:50,560
Speaker 1: of time on their hands. They're always looking to cause trouble.

476
00:30:50,600 --> 00:30:53,080
Speaker 1: Send them off on a walk about. Okay. That brings

477
00:30:53,160 --> 00:30:56,480
Speaker 1: up with a thing we need to talk about. We

478
00:30:56,640 --> 00:31:01,600
Speaker 1: covered and we we've discussed multiple times. The footprints found

479
00:31:02,400 --> 00:31:12,560
Speaker 1: in White Sands National Park. Okay, and I wanna feel

480
00:31:12,560 --> 00:31:16,560
Speaker 1: free to roam on this one. I mentioned you, Hey,

481
00:31:16,640 --> 00:31:21,840
Speaker 1: what are your thoughts about the footprints, the ancient footprints

482
00:31:21,840 --> 00:31:25,360
Speaker 1: that they found. You'll have to describe what they're in

483
00:31:25,480 --> 00:31:28,840
Speaker 1: or whatever. But but a sort of it's not fossilized,

484
00:31:28,880 --> 00:31:30,680
Speaker 1: but whatever the hell the word is for it a

485
00:31:30,800 --> 00:31:37,400
Speaker 1: very old barefoot footprint. Um. Apparently, uh, this was found

486
00:31:38,160 --> 00:31:42,840
Speaker 1: relatively recently by a park ranger in White Sands National Park.

487
00:31:43,360 --> 00:31:46,520
Speaker 1: It seems to be that there is a what they

488
00:31:46,560 --> 00:31:49,960
Speaker 1: determined to be a young female. She seems that she

489
00:31:50,080 --> 00:31:56,080
Speaker 1: was carrying a child on her hip would periodically set

490
00:31:56,120 --> 00:31:59,560
Speaker 1: the kid down and pick the kid back up. She'd

491
00:31:59,600 --> 00:32:06,120
Speaker 1: gone on the lake shore. A mammoth I believe, or

492
00:32:06,280 --> 00:32:11,680
Speaker 1: masadon crossed her track. Yeah, a ground a giant ground

493
00:32:11,680 --> 00:32:16,080
Speaker 1: sloth crossed her track. She came back minus the child.

494
00:32:16,840 --> 00:32:20,680
Speaker 1: This is you'll have to go with this, like what Okay?

495
00:32:20,680 --> 00:32:23,840
Speaker 1: Are people getting carried away or not carried away? But

496
00:32:24,000 --> 00:32:26,760
Speaker 1: that's the story. That is the story. And I mentioned

497
00:32:26,760 --> 00:32:28,760
Speaker 1: it to you. Story. Yeah, I mentioned it to you.

498
00:32:28,800 --> 00:32:31,000
Speaker 1: And I don't want to say that you rolled your eyes,

499
00:32:31,120 --> 00:32:36,280
Speaker 1: but you you seem to have. You had the sort

500
00:32:36,320 --> 00:32:40,200
Speaker 1: of a yeah, but look on your face. Okay, So

501
00:32:40,280 --> 00:32:45,520
Speaker 1: here's the butt. Okay. So the site is in the

502
00:32:45,560 --> 00:32:50,720
Speaker 1: White Sands National Park. That much is correct, Mexico, which

503
00:32:50,800 --> 00:32:53,480
Speaker 1: is in New Mexico, surrounding the White Sands Missile Range.

504
00:32:54,080 --> 00:32:59,200
Speaker 1: Actually it's within, it's sort of embedded within. And I

505
00:32:59,240 --> 00:33:01,600
Speaker 1: can preface this by saying, we've actually been doing some

506
00:33:01,640 --> 00:33:04,640
Speaker 1: work on the missile range h and at one point

507
00:33:04,680 --> 00:33:07,400
Speaker 1: we were literally just a hundred meters or so north

508
00:33:07,480 --> 00:33:09,960
Speaker 1: of the footprint site. So we wandered over to take

509
00:33:09,960 --> 00:33:13,680
Speaker 1: a look, and really interesting, Oh yeah, Oh yeah, I've

510
00:33:13,680 --> 00:33:16,880
Speaker 1: not seen the footprints, find you. And we've actually been

511
00:33:16,880 --> 00:33:20,360
Speaker 1: excavating in sediments that are the same age as the

512
00:33:20,400 --> 00:33:23,440
Speaker 1: sediments that had produced the footprints. And I think I

513
00:33:23,480 --> 00:33:25,320
Speaker 1: need to preface all this by saying, Look, the people

514
00:33:25,320 --> 00:33:28,080
Speaker 1: that are working on that site, UM, these are pros.

515
00:33:28,320 --> 00:33:30,680
Speaker 1: They know what the hell they were doing. Um, they

516
00:33:30,680 --> 00:33:33,440
Speaker 1: know how to identify footprints. I got no question about

517
00:33:33,480 --> 00:33:39,520
Speaker 1: whether these are footprints. Um. The issue issues really come

518
00:33:39,600 --> 00:33:43,680
Speaker 1: down to the age of the site. So the site

519
00:33:44,040 --> 00:33:49,000
Speaker 1: is dated by the investigators between twenty three thousand and

520
00:33:49,040 --> 00:33:51,880
Speaker 1: twenty one years ago, which, if feel remember from our

521
00:33:51,920 --> 00:33:56,760
Speaker 1: previous conversations, is substantially older than the secure evidence that

522
00:33:56,800 --> 00:33:59,000
Speaker 1: we have for people in the Americas. Give us around,

523
00:33:59,000 --> 00:34:01,160
Speaker 1: give a quick review of that, which is around fifteen

524
00:34:01,200 --> 00:34:05,160
Speaker 1: and a half fifteen sixteen thousand years ago. Is the okay,

525
00:34:05,280 --> 00:34:08,600
Speaker 1: use the word secure evidence secure because there's always insecure

526
00:34:08,600 --> 00:34:10,920
Speaker 1: evidence out there that people are claiming. You know, we've

527
00:34:10,920 --> 00:34:13,000
Speaker 1: got folks here a hundred and thirty thousand years ago.

528
00:34:13,239 --> 00:34:16,759
Speaker 1: Just it just doesn't hold up to scrutiny. What about Monteverde,

529
00:34:16,800 --> 00:34:23,680
Speaker 1: I'm sorry you buy that one. Oh yeah, that's regarded

530
00:34:23,719 --> 00:34:27,080
Speaker 1: as assailable. Yeah, well that's the that's the latest, that's

531
00:34:27,120 --> 00:34:30,560
Speaker 1: the oldest one, because that new thing on Columbia right

532
00:34:31,440 --> 00:34:33,759
Speaker 1: around the snake or Salmon, I can't remember where it is. Yeah,

533
00:34:34,440 --> 00:34:36,120
Speaker 1: well we've got some other sites that are sort of

534
00:34:36,200 --> 00:34:39,720
Speaker 1: around that fifteen fifteen and a half plus or minus

535
00:34:39,920 --> 00:34:44,000
Speaker 1: age and cold is how old? Like about thirteen exactly? Alright,

536
00:34:44,080 --> 00:34:49,400
Speaker 1: sow one the site big. It's a big People might

537
00:34:49,400 --> 00:34:51,960
Speaker 1: be like, yeah, what's the difference, but yeah, no, it's substantial.

538
00:34:53,280 --> 00:34:55,000
Speaker 1: The site is sitting on the floor of an old

539
00:34:55,080 --> 00:34:59,560
Speaker 1: lake bed okay, old place to seen Lake otaro Um.

540
00:35:00,520 --> 00:35:05,320
Speaker 1: And there's a couple of issues with UM, with the dating,

541
00:35:05,440 --> 00:35:07,200
Speaker 1: and they're I'm going to get to sort of the

542
00:35:07,320 --> 00:35:11,320
Speaker 1: larger questions around the site. When we look at it

543
00:35:11,320 --> 00:35:13,879
Speaker 1: and when we're looking at at radio carbon dates, we're

544
00:35:13,960 --> 00:35:16,560
Speaker 1: looking both at their reliability. If you date something again,

545
00:35:16,560 --> 00:35:18,600
Speaker 1: are you're gonna get the same answer, and we're looking

546
00:35:18,640 --> 00:35:23,200
Speaker 1: at their validity. Is the answer correct? Okay? What they're

547
00:35:23,280 --> 00:35:27,239
Speaker 1: dating is um. The common name is ditch grass. The

548
00:35:27,320 --> 00:35:33,720
Speaker 1: scientific name is rupia. Now rupia photosynthesizes uh dissolved inorganic carbon,

549
00:35:34,000 --> 00:35:36,800
Speaker 1: which is a really fancy way of saying dead carbon.

550
00:35:37,320 --> 00:35:40,839
Speaker 1: If you ingest dead carbon into the system, the dates

551
00:35:40,920 --> 00:35:43,239
Speaker 1: that you're going to get in return are going to

552
00:35:43,360 --> 00:35:48,560
Speaker 1: be older than they should be. Okay, So in terms

553
00:35:48,640 --> 00:35:51,000
Speaker 1: of the issue of reliability, there was a paper that

554
00:35:51,200 --> 00:35:56,160
Speaker 1: literally just came out yesterday in the journal Geoarchaeology, wherein

555
00:35:56,280 --> 00:36:01,360
Speaker 1: they took some Rupia seeds from um and the scientific

556
00:36:01,600 --> 00:36:03,719
Speaker 1: term is not literally seeds, but we're just gonna go

557
00:36:03,840 --> 00:36:05,799
Speaker 1: with seeds because that makes the most sense in terms

558
00:36:05,840 --> 00:36:10,600
Speaker 1: of the conversation. They dated um a bunch of rupea

559
00:36:10,719 --> 00:36:13,840
Speaker 1: seeds from what's known as a lake ball. What happens

560
00:36:13,920 --> 00:36:17,440
Speaker 1: in these old lakes is that rupea grows in relatively

561
00:36:17,560 --> 00:36:23,479
Speaker 1: deep water upwards of two meters, and during um these

562
00:36:23,880 --> 00:36:27,400
Speaker 1: windstorms that will blow the water of the lake um,

563
00:36:28,000 --> 00:36:30,279
Speaker 1: pile it up on one end, drop it down in

564
00:36:30,360 --> 00:36:34,080
Speaker 1: the other. The rupea gets dislodged and gets piled up

565
00:36:34,120 --> 00:36:38,240
Speaker 1: on the beaches right and and sometimes it forms balls

566
00:36:38,480 --> 00:36:41,360
Speaker 1: where you just literally have a whole massive rupea seeds.

567
00:36:41,680 --> 00:36:44,160
Speaker 1: They took one of these balls, they divvied it up

568
00:36:44,200 --> 00:36:48,359
Speaker 1: into portions, and they dated the different portions, and there

569
00:36:48,440 --> 00:36:52,960
Speaker 1: was a span of fift hundred years Ostensibly, if you're

570
00:36:52,960 --> 00:36:55,319
Speaker 1: going to date a single event, you ought to get

571
00:36:55,360 --> 00:36:58,520
Speaker 1: the exact same number, right, So what that's telling you

572
00:36:58,800 --> 00:37:01,800
Speaker 1: is that lots of different rupea seeds from lots of

573
00:37:01,880 --> 00:37:05,279
Speaker 1: different ages are tending to get lumped together. So if

574
00:37:05,320 --> 00:37:12,319
Speaker 1: you're but they're not lasting fift hundred years. But wait, then,

575
00:37:12,360 --> 00:37:14,279
Speaker 1: there was a paper that came out three weeks ago

576
00:37:14,560 --> 00:37:17,960
Speaker 1: in the journal Paternary Research where they actually dated some

577
00:37:18,480 --> 00:37:22,400
Speaker 1: rupia that had been collected in nineteen forty seven in

578
00:37:22,520 --> 00:37:27,360
Speaker 1: the same drainage region. And these were modern rupia samples

579
00:37:28,320 --> 00:37:32,120
Speaker 1: collected in nineteen forty seven radio carbon dated six months ago.

580
00:37:32,760 --> 00:37:35,160
Speaker 1: The radio carbon dates on things that we're growing in

581
00:37:35,320 --> 00:37:39,960
Speaker 1: nineteen forty seven came back seventy four hundred years old.

582
00:37:41,719 --> 00:37:48,080
Speaker 1: Why because they were ingesting dead carbon Rupia. Rupia is

583
00:37:49,200 --> 00:37:52,840
Speaker 1: basically sucking up ancient carbon. So the dates that we

584
00:37:53,000 --> 00:37:56,880
Speaker 1: have of twenty three thousand subtract seventy four hundred, what

585
00:37:57,000 --> 00:38:00,440
Speaker 1: do you get around fifteen and a half thousand years ago?

586
00:38:01,200 --> 00:38:04,399
Speaker 1: So in other words, the dating that they're doing, they're

587
00:38:04,520 --> 00:38:07,439
Speaker 1: dating ancient things that may well be the same age

588
00:38:07,440 --> 00:38:10,520
Speaker 1: as the footprints, but that doesn't mean they're that old.

589
00:38:19,880 --> 00:38:25,240
Speaker 1: Explain how are they associating their rupia with the footprint? Okay,

590
00:38:26,160 --> 00:38:29,040
Speaker 1: you can't date a footprint, right, It's just what's the

591
00:38:29,120 --> 00:38:31,279
Speaker 1: words it's not? I mean, what what do you call

592
00:38:31,400 --> 00:38:35,480
Speaker 1: like a because it's not like it's a feature, it's

593
00:38:35,520 --> 00:38:39,000
Speaker 1: not an artifact. Um But why is it? Why is

594
00:38:39,040 --> 00:38:40,840
Speaker 1: it still there? I mean, let's say it's a thousand

595
00:38:40,920 --> 00:38:43,080
Speaker 1: years old, Like, what makes it that the footprint is

596
00:38:43,120 --> 00:38:45,480
Speaker 1: still there? Because normally you walk along the beach and

597
00:38:45,840 --> 00:38:47,479
Speaker 1: later in the day your footprint is not there. Okay,

598
00:38:47,520 --> 00:38:49,720
Speaker 1: this is actually another one of the problems and issues

599
00:38:49,760 --> 00:38:53,239
Speaker 1: that I have with this thing is um So footprints

600
00:38:53,239 --> 00:38:55,640
Speaker 1: are said to have been found over a two thousand

601
00:38:55,760 --> 00:38:59,160
Speaker 1: year period between twenty three thousand and twenty one years ago. Okay,

602
00:38:59,760 --> 00:39:02,959
Speaker 1: they are found in sediment. And I know this because

603
00:39:03,040 --> 00:39:05,320
Speaker 1: we were digging in a trench a hundred fifty away

604
00:39:05,360 --> 00:39:09,640
Speaker 1: in the same deposit. That is rock hard. And when

605
00:39:09,680 --> 00:39:11,920
Speaker 1: you read the original paper on the footprints, they talk

606
00:39:11,960 --> 00:39:17,000
Speaker 1: about excavating the footprints with a dirt rated chainsaw. I've

607
00:39:17,040 --> 00:39:20,000
Speaker 1: done a lot of excavating. I've never excavated with a chainsaw.

608
00:39:20,920 --> 00:39:23,640
Speaker 1: This the stuff is so rock hard to cut it

609
00:39:23,719 --> 00:39:25,920
Speaker 1: out So my question is not so much how do

610
00:39:25,960 --> 00:39:28,200
Speaker 1: the footprints get preserved, but how do you find them

611
00:39:28,360 --> 00:39:32,840
Speaker 1: when you're chainsawing through a block of sediment? Well, how

612
00:39:32,880 --> 00:39:34,920
Speaker 1: did the first person that found him find him? Anyways,

613
00:39:35,000 --> 00:39:37,479
Speaker 1: but yeah, it must have found him on this roading

614
00:39:37,520 --> 00:39:40,000
Speaker 1: on the surface. But then they excavated down with their

615
00:39:40,080 --> 00:39:43,080
Speaker 1: chainsaws and got several layers of these things. It's puzzling

616
00:39:43,120 --> 00:39:45,120
Speaker 1: as hell to me, and I'd really love to see

617
00:39:45,160 --> 00:39:49,360
Speaker 1: if footprints are are are preserved in some ways. We

618
00:39:49,400 --> 00:39:51,919
Speaker 1: have dinosaur tracks, We have all kind of tracks in rock,

619
00:39:52,360 --> 00:39:54,600
Speaker 1: something would have happened, but these are in rock. No,

620
00:39:54,840 --> 00:39:57,960
Speaker 1: these are in sediment. Because the dinosaur tracks usually it's

621
00:39:58,040 --> 00:40:02,200
Speaker 1: walking in some kind of I don't know mud. Did

622
00:40:02,440 --> 00:40:06,600
Speaker 1: have did eventually that mud fossilizes? Yeah, yeah, no, it's

623
00:40:06,600 --> 00:40:09,200
Speaker 1: a puzzle. And these tracks. If you if you went

624
00:40:09,239 --> 00:40:11,640
Speaker 1: to one of these tracks and you poked it, you'd

625
00:40:11,760 --> 00:40:15,080
Speaker 1: indent it. I would think so, well, actually, if if

626
00:40:15,120 --> 00:40:18,320
Speaker 1: you could, because again it's when we were taking sediment

627
00:40:18,360 --> 00:40:21,840
Speaker 1: samples out of those same deposits, I was literally wailing

628
00:40:21,880 --> 00:40:24,120
Speaker 1: away with a rock hammer to chip out the dirt.

629
00:40:24,920 --> 00:40:28,800
Speaker 1: So I'm just not sure how they found multiple layers

630
00:40:28,840 --> 00:40:33,280
Speaker 1: couldn't be different that far away. I mean no, because

631
00:40:33,360 --> 00:40:36,600
Speaker 1: schiologist that was working on the footprints was working with

632
00:40:36,760 --> 00:40:38,560
Speaker 1: me on the other side of the fence on the

633
00:40:38,600 --> 00:40:40,960
Speaker 1: missile range and said, this is the deposit in which

634
00:40:41,040 --> 00:40:45,080
Speaker 1: the footprints are found. M But leaving that aside, that

635
00:40:45,400 --> 00:40:47,600
Speaker 1: you have footprints stacked on top of each other, have

636
00:40:47,680 --> 00:40:49,759
Speaker 1: different layers, and then I can't quite figure out how

637
00:40:49,800 --> 00:40:51,880
Speaker 1: they were excavated. And I'd really like to see, you know,

638
00:40:51,920 --> 00:40:56,000
Speaker 1: how these that'll eventually become one would hope. Yeah, apparently

639
00:40:56,080 --> 00:40:58,480
Speaker 1: there were videos made, so I'm not doubting that they

640
00:40:58,520 --> 00:41:00,560
Speaker 1: found these things. I just don't understand and how they

641
00:41:01,080 --> 00:41:04,960
Speaker 1: managed to excavate them in the condition that they're excavated.

642
00:41:05,800 --> 00:41:09,879
Speaker 1: And the rupec the rupia does something different than other plants. Well.

643
00:41:10,160 --> 00:41:13,200
Speaker 1: In fact, in that same paper where they dated the

644
00:41:13,560 --> 00:41:17,640
Speaker 1: rupia from seven they dated another plant that had been

645
00:41:17,680 --> 00:41:21,360
Speaker 1: collected that same year by the same botanists, and it

646
00:41:21,520 --> 00:41:25,640
Speaker 1: dated to only three hundred years ago. But other things

647
00:41:25,719 --> 00:41:27,919
Speaker 1: would be more stable. So there's something about that. There's

648
00:41:27,920 --> 00:41:31,720
Speaker 1: something about there's something about rupia that differentially is taking

649
00:41:31,800 --> 00:41:35,040
Speaker 1: up this dead carbon that's giving it inflated ages. And

650
00:41:35,320 --> 00:41:37,560
Speaker 1: I interrupted you or didn't give you time to do it.

651
00:41:38,920 --> 00:41:43,120
Speaker 1: Why why do they feel that the footprint and the

652
00:41:43,440 --> 00:41:49,680
Speaker 1: plant our bodies? Oh, well they do, but um, others

653
00:41:49,719 --> 00:41:53,440
Speaker 1: are skeptical because if you've got, um, let's say, the

654
00:41:53,680 --> 00:41:56,920
Speaker 1: an edge of a lake and you've got people walking

655
00:41:57,040 --> 00:42:00,840
Speaker 1: on it, or you have one of these big storm

656
00:42:00,880 --> 00:42:02,920
Speaker 1: events and it washes up a bunch of rupea on

657
00:42:02,960 --> 00:42:05,960
Speaker 1: a surface and then people walk across that surface, it

658
00:42:06,120 --> 00:42:08,800
Speaker 1: was deposited. They were both deposited at the same moment,

659
00:42:09,160 --> 00:42:13,480
Speaker 1: but they were both not necessarily well, they were the

660
00:42:13,560 --> 00:42:16,800
Speaker 1: same age, except that rupia is dating older than it should.

661
00:42:16,880 --> 00:42:20,719
Speaker 1: But why, Okay, you find a track, what is it

662
00:42:20,840 --> 00:42:25,200
Speaker 1: about the vegetation that you're like, I'll date this vegetation. Oh,

663
00:42:25,360 --> 00:42:27,160
Speaker 1: it's the only thing that you can date. Well, it's

664
00:42:27,200 --> 00:42:29,440
Speaker 1: just on the same lighter, it's on the same layer. Yeah. Yeah,

665
00:42:29,800 --> 00:42:32,359
Speaker 1: So it's not like it was has a footprint over

666
00:42:32,440 --> 00:42:34,920
Speaker 1: it or something that I mean, is there is it

667
00:42:35,080 --> 00:42:38,759
Speaker 1: pretty good that that that that their foot was on

668
00:42:38,920 --> 00:42:41,600
Speaker 1: the plant on the plant or well, these are these

669
00:42:41,640 --> 00:42:46,279
Speaker 1: are just literally layers of these seeds. I think would

670
00:42:46,280 --> 00:42:48,040
Speaker 1: you say the assumption is that if there was a

671
00:42:48,080 --> 00:42:51,080
Speaker 1: footprint and on the same layer, because that that's like

672
00:42:51,239 --> 00:42:54,080
Speaker 1: a capsule of time exactly if there was a rupea

673
00:42:54,320 --> 00:42:58,440
Speaker 1: growing add one more. Man, I I thought it was that.

674
00:42:58,719 --> 00:43:00,919
Speaker 1: I assumed they were taking it where they could see

675
00:43:02,440 --> 00:43:09,160
Speaker 1: the foot so random though, you know, no, wouldn't well, okay,

676
00:43:09,239 --> 00:43:11,200
Speaker 1: let me let me do that. All of human history

677
00:43:11,239 --> 00:43:13,680
Speaker 1: would just be a big I'm saying that you have

678
00:43:13,880 --> 00:43:16,560
Speaker 1: a track. Let's say you have a Let's say imagine

679
00:43:16,560 --> 00:43:19,120
Speaker 1: there's a piece of seaweed. Yeah, and you stepped on

680
00:43:19,360 --> 00:43:22,400
Speaker 1: and you stepped on it, and then that preserved and

681
00:43:22,480 --> 00:43:30,400
Speaker 1: you could see where like absolutely this footprint crushed this plant,

682
00:43:31,040 --> 00:43:33,600
Speaker 1: and you actually many be like those are friends. Steve

683
00:43:33,719 --> 00:43:36,960
Speaker 1: Ronnell is perfect World and Steve Bronelle's Perfect World actually

684
00:43:37,000 --> 00:43:39,239
Speaker 1: exists on the coast of British Columbia. There is a

685
00:43:39,280 --> 00:43:41,759
Speaker 1: site that has thirteen thousand year old footprints where somebody

686
00:43:41,800 --> 00:43:46,640
Speaker 1: stepped onto vegetation. How do you know those are accurately dated? Uh,

687
00:43:46,680 --> 00:43:51,480
Speaker 1: they're not absorbing dissolved inorganic carbon that plant. That plant. Yeah,

688
00:43:51,560 --> 00:43:54,000
Speaker 1: this is no, this is a tricky plant. A couple

689
00:43:54,120 --> 00:43:56,879
Speaker 1: other pieces of information, so I've worked out there you're

690
00:43:56,920 --> 00:43:58,919
Speaker 1: on the floor of an old lake bed. You stand

691
00:43:58,960 --> 00:44:02,120
Speaker 1: out there. You look around, you think, what the hell

692
00:44:02,160 --> 00:44:05,719
Speaker 1: would have attracted people to this spot repeatedly over two

693
00:44:05,760 --> 00:44:09,160
Speaker 1: thousand years? Now, there's nothing out there today. Now that's

694
00:44:09,200 --> 00:44:11,440
Speaker 1: not to say that there wasn't It was something, It

695
00:44:11,520 --> 00:44:13,719
Speaker 1: was the marsh or something. Right, Yeah, there's nothing to

696
00:44:13,760 --> 00:44:17,480
Speaker 1: say that there wasn't anything there, you know, fifteen thousand

697
00:44:17,520 --> 00:44:20,120
Speaker 1: plus years ago or twenty three if you believe the dates,

698
00:44:20,160 --> 00:44:23,440
Speaker 1: which I'm skeptical about. But the other pieces is that

699
00:44:24,120 --> 00:44:28,120
Speaker 1: people apparently or allegedly or purportedly came here over a

700
00:44:28,160 --> 00:44:32,160
Speaker 1: two thousand year period repeatedly. There's not a single artifact,

701
00:44:33,600 --> 00:44:36,880
Speaker 1: no features, no other evidence of a human presence except

702
00:44:36,920 --> 00:44:40,200
Speaker 1: their footprints. What were you digging at? We were north

703
00:44:40,239 --> 00:44:43,279
Speaker 1: of there, and we were testing that same deposit, and

704
00:44:43,400 --> 00:44:47,720
Speaker 1: we were actually taking DNA samples DNA of what the sediment?

705
00:44:48,800 --> 00:44:53,160
Speaker 1: Does sediment have DNA? Oh yeah, but the clay. You're

706
00:44:53,280 --> 00:44:57,279
Speaker 1: You're into the whole new world. Now, someday these boys

707
00:44:57,280 --> 00:45:00,839
Speaker 1: are gonna be able to you be able to You'll

708
00:45:00,880 --> 00:45:03,600
Speaker 1: you'll be able to dig down, get to a certain spot,

709
00:45:03,960 --> 00:45:06,160
Speaker 1: get a scoop, and you'll be like, oh, yeah, there

710
00:45:06,280 --> 00:45:11,120
Speaker 1: was a thirteen year old male here Okay, well, Steve's

711
00:45:11,160 --> 00:45:13,960
Speaker 1: going a little bit bit, a little bit farther than

712
00:45:14,000 --> 00:45:17,520
Speaker 1: I would go. But um, so this is work that's

713
00:45:17,520 --> 00:45:21,720
Speaker 1: actually been done over the last twenty years. In fact,

714
00:45:22,719 --> 00:45:26,040
Speaker 1: you're looking for human DNA and anything anything. It's like

715
00:45:26,239 --> 00:45:30,160
Speaker 1: anything animals. So um. You know, we've talked about the

716
00:45:30,200 --> 00:45:32,560
Speaker 1: ice Free Corridor and one of the things that we

717
00:45:32,640 --> 00:45:34,799
Speaker 1: were able to do with ancient DNA out of lake

718
00:45:34,880 --> 00:45:39,280
Speaker 1: cores is we were able to detect basically the moment

719
00:45:39,360 --> 00:45:43,720
Speaker 1: that um animals and plants start occupying this region. Because

720
00:45:43,760 --> 00:45:45,359
Speaker 1: when you take a lake corp out at the very

721
00:45:45,400 --> 00:45:48,239
Speaker 1: bottom is just gravel and grit and whatnot, and at

722
00:45:48,239 --> 00:45:52,120
Speaker 1: a certain point suddenly, boom, you've got you've got mammoth DNA,

723
00:45:52,239 --> 00:45:57,560
Speaker 1: you've got bison DNA. And we use it's called shotgun sequencing,

724
00:45:57,719 --> 00:46:01,080
Speaker 1: where you basically take sediment and you just look to

725
00:46:01,160 --> 00:46:05,319
Speaker 1: see what is alive in here or what was once

726
00:46:05,400 --> 00:46:08,799
Speaker 1: living in here that contributed its DNA. We just had

727
00:46:08,840 --> 00:46:12,280
Speaker 1: a piece last year um UH with a whole series

728
00:46:12,320 --> 00:46:14,800
Speaker 1: of sites around the Arctic, and we were able to

729
00:46:14,880 --> 00:46:18,799
Speaker 1: trace mammoth DNA over time and watch the mammoth populations

730
00:46:18,840 --> 00:46:22,120
Speaker 1: basically shrinking into a small area of the Timer Peninsula

731
00:46:22,760 --> 00:46:26,839
Speaker 1: of northern Siberia up to around four thousand years ago.

732
00:46:27,120 --> 00:46:29,600
Speaker 1: And we were able to do this not by their bones,

733
00:46:29,680 --> 00:46:33,800
Speaker 1: because bones don't survive long enough. But that's because a

734
00:46:33,920 --> 00:46:36,920
Speaker 1: mammoth only is going to leave one skeleton behind, but

735
00:46:37,080 --> 00:46:39,880
Speaker 1: over the course of its lifetime at shedding DNA constantly.

736
00:46:40,320 --> 00:46:41,880
Speaker 1: We could go out to the site where we were

737
00:46:41,920 --> 00:46:47,040
Speaker 1: butchering that animal yesterday and we could go and take um,

738
00:46:47,960 --> 00:46:50,839
Speaker 1: I mean, all you guys were bleeding out there right, Um,

739
00:46:51,360 --> 00:46:53,440
Speaker 1: we could take some of that sediment. We could get

740
00:46:53,520 --> 00:46:56,120
Speaker 1: DNA out of that sediment, and we'd find bison DNA,

741
00:46:56,280 --> 00:47:03,480
Speaker 1: we'd find nala DNA. That John in his DNA an

742
00:47:03,560 --> 00:47:09,920
Speaker 1: extraordinary grip strength. Well, let's it that wouldn't degrade over time. No,

743
00:47:10,239 --> 00:47:14,160
Speaker 1: Clay is absolutely right. Um d NA uh, you know

744
00:47:14,440 --> 00:47:17,960
Speaker 1: in your genome three point two billion base pairs right

745
00:47:18,480 --> 00:47:21,440
Speaker 1: by the time it gets into the archaeological record or

746
00:47:21,440 --> 00:47:24,680
Speaker 1: the geological record. And mind you, DNA has been recovered

747
00:47:24,719 --> 00:47:29,800
Speaker 1: from upwards from sites upwards of two million years old. No, really, seriously,

748
00:47:30,360 --> 00:47:32,279
Speaker 1: I would not Steve, I would not lie to you,

749
00:47:34,280 --> 00:47:38,239
Speaker 1: but just not like horribly degraded. It's terribly degrade recognizable.

750
00:47:38,280 --> 00:47:42,160
Speaker 1: That that actually makes it identifiable as ancient DNA, because

751
00:47:42,239 --> 00:47:45,040
Speaker 1: ancient DNA in general is no more than about a

752
00:47:45,120 --> 00:47:48,200
Speaker 1: hundred letters long. If you see a string of DNA

753
00:47:48,400 --> 00:47:50,960
Speaker 1: letters that are thousands and thousands of letters long, you

754
00:47:51,080 --> 00:47:55,560
Speaker 1: know that somebody in the lab sneezed and your sample okay.

755
00:47:56,200 --> 00:48:00,440
Speaker 1: But if it's anywhere you know, fifty plus or minus uh,

756
00:48:00,560 --> 00:48:03,120
Speaker 1: that's ancient DNA. And what you have to do, and

757
00:48:03,200 --> 00:48:06,239
Speaker 1: this is a this is a very analytically challenging thing,

758
00:48:07,200 --> 00:48:09,120
Speaker 1: as you've got to take all those little fragments of

759
00:48:09,239 --> 00:48:13,520
Speaker 1: DNA and figure out what is the sequence here, and

760
00:48:13,600 --> 00:48:17,200
Speaker 1: then map that sequence to a reference genome which will

761
00:48:17,280 --> 00:48:22,759
Speaker 1: tell you it's mammoth, it's bison, it's something else. Uh.

762
00:48:22,960 --> 00:48:25,560
Speaker 1: And so a lot of the work that's done in

763
00:48:25,800 --> 00:48:29,080
Speaker 1: ancient DNA, ancient environmental DNA is is actually the term

764
00:48:29,840 --> 00:48:34,319
Speaker 1: UH involves compiling reference sequences so that when you're doing

765
00:48:34,440 --> 00:48:36,800
Speaker 1: the shotgun work where you're looking at all the DNA

766
00:48:36,920 --> 00:48:40,440
Speaker 1: fragments within a sample of sediment, you can match it

767
00:48:40,560 --> 00:48:43,400
Speaker 1: up with whatever might have been out on that landscape.

768
00:48:44,760 --> 00:48:47,359
Speaker 1: One thing I appreciate the about the work you guys

769
00:48:47,440 --> 00:48:50,560
Speaker 1: do is that. Uh, I mean, just I guess this

770
00:48:50,880 --> 00:48:54,080
Speaker 1: is part of the scientific process in general. Is you

771
00:48:54,239 --> 00:48:57,399
Speaker 1: have you you engage in work. Often this isn't gonna

772
00:48:57,600 --> 00:49:02,640
Speaker 1: yield the answer, But you're developing a tool m you

773
00:49:02,680 --> 00:49:05,120
Speaker 1: know what I mean, Like you're almost started laying the

774
00:49:05,239 --> 00:49:10,040
Speaker 1: groundwork for you're sort of building a tool kit or

775
00:49:10,120 --> 00:49:14,520
Speaker 1: laying the groundwork for probably maybe the next generation to

776
00:49:14,760 --> 00:49:18,879
Speaker 1: really enjoy the benefits of Well, that's exactly right. Um,

777
00:49:19,080 --> 00:49:21,440
Speaker 1: but that's how you push things forward as well. Um,

778
00:49:22,000 --> 00:49:26,960
Speaker 1: this is research, um, pure research. What we do. I mean,

779
00:49:27,040 --> 00:49:30,759
Speaker 1: let's be honest, we're archaeologists. What we do is useless, um,

780
00:49:30,840 --> 00:49:35,840
Speaker 1: but it's not necessarily meaningless. Um. We learned things, and

781
00:49:36,320 --> 00:49:38,400
Speaker 1: in the process of learning things, we also learned what

782
00:49:38,520 --> 00:49:41,440
Speaker 1: we don't know. And then we push forward again to

783
00:49:41,520 --> 00:49:44,360
Speaker 1: try and figure out, Okay, how do we remove that

784
00:49:44,480 --> 00:49:47,719
Speaker 1: piece of ignorance? What is the greatest defense of like

785
00:49:47,880 --> 00:49:50,879
Speaker 1: your job. If someone's like, oh, what you do is useless, well,

786
00:49:50,960 --> 00:49:53,319
Speaker 1: I think people are fundamentally interested in who we are

787
00:49:53,400 --> 00:49:57,920
Speaker 1: and how we got here. Um, and I well recognize that.

788
00:49:58,480 --> 00:50:01,360
Speaker 1: You know, my son is a doct he's a real doctor.

789
00:50:01,480 --> 00:50:05,480
Speaker 1: He's an empty I'm just a PhD. And so I'm

790
00:50:05,520 --> 00:50:09,000
Speaker 1: not gonna cure cancer. I'm not the guy that you're

791
00:50:09,000 --> 00:50:11,279
Speaker 1: going to call on the airplane when somebody gets sick.

792
00:50:11,640 --> 00:50:13,399
Speaker 1: You know, you're gonna have to wait twelve thousand years

793
00:50:13,400 --> 00:50:16,440
Speaker 1: and then I can help you. Um. But I do

794
00:50:16,680 --> 00:50:20,800
Speaker 1: think that, um, you know, in in our modern world,

795
00:50:20,960 --> 00:50:25,480
Speaker 1: I think people do appreciate where we've been, um, the

796
00:50:25,640 --> 00:50:30,080
Speaker 1: history of the human species, um, because it's a fascinating

797
00:50:30,239 --> 00:50:31,759
Speaker 1: history and it tells us a hell of a lot

798
00:50:31,800 --> 00:50:35,520
Speaker 1: about who we are today. Yeah, it's you'd wind up

799
00:50:35,520 --> 00:50:39,200
Speaker 1: in the same landscape. Is if you said, why do

800
00:50:39,880 --> 00:50:41,520
Speaker 1: This might seem like a stretch, but bear with me.

801
00:50:41,719 --> 00:50:46,040
Speaker 1: You might be why do musicians matter? Why do visual

802
00:50:46,200 --> 00:50:53,879
Speaker 1: artists matter? Be like, uh, the information inspires people who yeah,

803
00:50:53,960 --> 00:50:56,680
Speaker 1: causes you to ask questions? Yeah, why the podcast matter?

804
00:50:56,840 --> 00:50:59,000
Speaker 1: I mean, why are people listening to meat Eater? Why

805
00:50:59,120 --> 00:51:01,279
Speaker 1: why am I getting all these emails and thank you

806
00:51:01,360 --> 00:51:05,680
Speaker 1: by the way from your listeners pictures of things they

807
00:51:05,719 --> 00:51:08,080
Speaker 1: found in their yard. Well, yes, there's a lot of

808
00:51:08,120 --> 00:51:13,719
Speaker 1: that fundamental, fundamental question that everyone has, whether they realize

809
00:51:13,760 --> 00:51:17,160
Speaker 1: it and have consciously articulated before it is who are

810
00:51:17,280 --> 00:51:19,320
Speaker 1: we and where do we come? From because that that

811
00:51:19,640 --> 00:51:25,440
Speaker 1: gives us reason justification. I mean, there's so much philosophical

812
00:51:26,160 --> 00:51:30,520
Speaker 1: fodder that influences whether we make electric cars, or whether

813
00:51:30,600 --> 00:51:33,280
Speaker 1: we go to war, or whether we try to cure cancer,

814
00:51:33,480 --> 00:51:35,920
Speaker 1: or whether we try to say that human life has

815
00:51:36,080 --> 00:51:41,359
Speaker 1: value based upon deep history of who we word, where

816
00:51:41,440 --> 00:51:48,680
Speaker 1: we came from. Spencer new Well, that's why, um, I

817
00:51:49,040 --> 00:51:52,359
Speaker 1: wish I had been an ice age hunter. And when

818
00:51:52,400 --> 00:51:54,759
Speaker 1: they invent time travel, I want to have a very

819
00:51:54,960 --> 00:51:57,080
Speaker 1: educated guess about where I want to land and win.

820
00:51:57,840 --> 00:52:00,200
Speaker 1: That's the whole reason. Yeah, So for him, it's a

821
00:52:00,239 --> 00:52:03,520
Speaker 1: practical issue. I don't want to make a horrible mistake.

822
00:52:03,920 --> 00:52:05,959
Speaker 1: See I could have said like, oh sweet White Sands

823
00:52:06,000 --> 00:52:16,040
Speaker 1: missile range years ago, there I am and should have

824
00:52:16,120 --> 00:52:18,560
Speaker 1: listened to melt Hey can I can I ask him

825
00:52:18,600 --> 00:52:21,840
Speaker 1: a question that has to do with the broader study

826
00:52:21,880 --> 00:52:27,560
Speaker 1: of archaeology. So, so you, in your status in the

827
00:52:27,719 --> 00:52:34,600
Speaker 1: anthropology archaeology archaeology world, like you questioning the validity of

828
00:52:34,719 --> 00:52:38,520
Speaker 1: this work? Is that? Is that? Okay? How would you

829
00:52:38,640 --> 00:52:41,160
Speaker 1: feel if someone said that about your work? Is this

830
00:52:41,280 --> 00:52:46,120
Speaker 1: just part of the is you know? What does Steve say?

831
00:52:46,280 --> 00:52:56,520
Speaker 1: Cynicism is the chastity of the intellect. Cynicism, skepticism is

832
00:52:56,600 --> 00:52:59,840
Speaker 1: the chastity of the intellectual. Did you invent that some Spanish?

833
00:53:00,520 --> 00:53:04,040
Speaker 1: I'm not just aenuine question. No, it's it's an absolutely

834
00:53:04,080 --> 00:53:06,279
Speaker 1: fair question. And met and and I can speak to

835
00:53:06,400 --> 00:53:09,400
Speaker 1: that because we just had to respond to a criticism

836
00:53:09,480 --> 00:53:13,960
Speaker 1: of a paper we published. Look and in academia the

837
00:53:14,080 --> 00:53:21,359
Speaker 1: currency uh to say that to your face, the guy

838
00:53:21,400 --> 00:53:26,200
Speaker 1: who read about I'm sorry inside inside um, ideas are

839
00:53:26,360 --> 00:53:29,000
Speaker 1: the currency, right. This is not the business world where

840
00:53:29,160 --> 00:53:30,960
Speaker 1: you know who makes the most money and who dies

841
00:53:31,040 --> 00:53:33,880
Speaker 1: with the most toys or anything. This is all about ideas,

842
00:53:33,920 --> 00:53:38,360
Speaker 1: and ideas are open season. My ideas, your ideas, everybody's ideas.

843
00:53:38,360 --> 00:53:41,040
Speaker 1: And so Mett and I were just just published a

844
00:53:41,080 --> 00:53:44,840
Speaker 1: paper in which we responded to a critique of the

845
00:53:44,920 --> 00:53:46,440
Speaker 1: work that we had published. Me and you want to

846
00:53:46,480 --> 00:53:48,719
Speaker 1: give a quick Yeah, we actually talked about this in

847
00:53:48,840 --> 00:53:52,440
Speaker 1: January when I was here. Who was the idea that

848
00:53:52,680 --> 00:53:57,239
Speaker 1: Clovis points are kind of like these automatic mammoth killers, um,

849
00:53:57,320 --> 00:54:00,040
Speaker 1: and that they were designed that's what they were for

850
00:54:00,239 --> 00:54:04,480
Speaker 1: to kill big Proboscidians. And our research question that and

851
00:54:05,000 --> 00:54:07,800
Speaker 1: doesn't seem to hold up um, But some colleagues of

852
00:54:07,880 --> 00:54:11,880
Speaker 1: ours wanted to sort of roll the ideas around and

853
00:54:12,239 --> 00:54:16,960
Speaker 1: question that, and we responded and with evidence. And that's it.

854
00:54:17,080 --> 00:54:19,480
Speaker 1: I mean everything we do, do they call you give

855
00:54:19,480 --> 00:54:23,440
Speaker 1: your heads up? Not in this case. Yeah. And is

856
00:54:23,480 --> 00:54:32,800
Speaker 1: there a little animosity in there? No, Man, Um, someone's

857
00:54:32,800 --> 00:54:34,520
Speaker 1: gonna like, if a journalist is gonna do a hit

858
00:54:34,600 --> 00:54:36,800
Speaker 1: piece on you, they might call you at the last

859
00:54:36,960 --> 00:54:41,800
Speaker 1: minute to give you a chance to respond. There's not

860
00:54:41,960 --> 00:54:43,359
Speaker 1: that he doesn't say, like, hey, man, you know you're

861
00:54:43,360 --> 00:54:45,400
Speaker 1: gonna open your email tomorrow. I'm gonna kind of attack

862
00:54:45,520 --> 00:54:47,920
Speaker 1: your your last you know, the last two years of

863
00:54:48,000 --> 00:54:50,560
Speaker 1: your life. Well. I think the point though, is everything

864
00:54:50,640 --> 00:54:54,000
Speaker 1: we're doing is in some way wrong. Um. And I

865
00:54:54,080 --> 00:54:55,680
Speaker 1: think you've got to go in You've got to go

866
00:54:55,800 --> 00:54:58,880
Speaker 1: into science with that attitude because someone's going to do

867
00:54:59,600 --> 00:55:02,879
Speaker 1: something better ten years from now, fifty years from now. Um.

868
00:55:03,360 --> 00:55:05,840
Speaker 1: If you're going into it thinking that you're gonna build

869
00:55:06,360 --> 00:55:09,560
Speaker 1: a legacy that's going to be untarnished and held it, No,

870
00:55:09,719 --> 00:55:12,239
Speaker 1: it's just not the case. We'll hang on a second there,

871
00:55:15,880 --> 00:55:19,759
Speaker 1: Just kidding. Something I learned yesterday I asked men, what

872
00:55:19,880 --> 00:55:23,600
Speaker 1: will be the greatest criticism of the study that we did? Um,

873
00:55:24,200 --> 00:55:26,200
Speaker 1: he gave his answer. But then I I learned this

874
00:55:26,440 --> 00:55:30,520
Speaker 1: that the feedback during the peer review portion is anonymous,

875
00:55:31,280 --> 00:55:33,560
Speaker 1: which is like kind of freeing, and that sounds like

876
00:55:33,680 --> 00:55:37,239
Speaker 1: very beneficial to your community, right or No, Um, it's

877
00:55:37,360 --> 00:55:40,360
Speaker 1: mostly anonymous. I'll tell you what I do. When I

878
00:55:40,440 --> 00:55:44,000
Speaker 1: get a paper that I really like to review, I'll

879
00:55:44,080 --> 00:55:47,280
Speaker 1: just I'll say glowing things about it. I'll say, published

880
00:55:47,320 --> 00:55:49,680
Speaker 1: this immediately, this is the greatest thing since sliced bread,

881
00:55:50,120 --> 00:55:52,000
Speaker 1: and I'll just send it back. If I get a

882
00:55:52,040 --> 00:55:54,920
Speaker 1: paper that I really don't like, I will review it

883
00:55:55,080 --> 00:55:58,760
Speaker 1: in detail and I will sign my review. Because people

884
00:55:59,000 --> 00:56:02,800
Speaker 1: are entitled to know who their critics are, in part

885
00:56:03,080 --> 00:56:05,200
Speaker 1: so that they can just say, oh, it's that guy,

886
00:56:05,880 --> 00:56:09,920
Speaker 1: positive positive feedback you're going on amous. Nobody needs to

887
00:56:09,960 --> 00:56:11,920
Speaker 1: know who their fans are, but people need to know

888
00:56:12,000 --> 00:56:13,719
Speaker 1: who their critics are. And I don't want to hide

889
00:56:13,760 --> 00:56:17,440
Speaker 1: behind anonymity if if I'm really unhappy about a paper.

890
00:56:17,560 --> 00:56:20,680
Speaker 1: Have you ever had to criticize someone who was a

891
00:56:20,840 --> 00:56:25,880
Speaker 1: legitimate close friend, well you know the footprint stuff. Yeah. No.

892
00:56:26,040 --> 00:56:29,480
Speaker 1: One of my long time professional friends and colleagues is

893
00:56:29,520 --> 00:56:32,279
Speaker 1: part of that team, and he and I have you know,

894
00:56:32,400 --> 00:56:35,800
Speaker 1: talked about this, and and you know he's quite open.

895
00:56:36,440 --> 00:56:39,120
Speaker 1: I'm open to criticism. You know, we we go back

896
00:56:39,160 --> 00:56:42,920
Speaker 1: and forth. That makes us smarter at least. I have

897
00:56:43,080 --> 00:56:44,680
Speaker 1: you ever seen it go? Have you ever seen it

898
00:56:45,239 --> 00:56:47,560
Speaker 1: where people couldn't just they couldn't hack it? Don't got

899
00:56:47,600 --> 00:56:51,279
Speaker 1: personal if you don't say yes, I'll know your life.

900
00:56:51,280 --> 00:56:54,680
Speaker 1: I mean, in your Falsome book, I mean it was

901
00:56:54,760 --> 00:56:57,320
Speaker 1: a whole clash. I mean it was like a drama.

902
00:56:58,040 --> 00:57:01,040
Speaker 1: I'm just actually trying to think of specific examples that

903
00:57:01,120 --> 00:57:02,920
Speaker 1: I can give you, and they're part of it as

904
00:57:03,040 --> 00:57:08,200
Speaker 1: I'm running through several. So, No, it can absolutely ruin

905
00:57:08,560 --> 00:57:12,080
Speaker 1: relationships if you can't handle it right. But if you

906
00:57:12,160 --> 00:57:16,120
Speaker 1: accept the fact that your ideas will be criticized, you know,

907
00:57:16,200 --> 00:57:19,200
Speaker 1: we'll just but on your big boy pants and deal

908
00:57:19,240 --> 00:57:22,240
Speaker 1: with it. I mean we criticize each other too. I mean,

909
00:57:22,440 --> 00:57:27,960
Speaker 1: well when we're writing, not yet, but like if we're

910
00:57:27,960 --> 00:57:31,480
Speaker 1: writing the paper together, yeah, you know, he'll I'll say

911
00:57:31,560 --> 00:57:34,800
Speaker 1: something sort of an example far well, so with this

912
00:57:35,000 --> 00:57:40,120
Speaker 1: Clovis hunting paper, Um, I thought that we might think

913
00:57:40,160 --> 00:57:42,960
Speaker 1: about how it dealt with extinctions, and he said, no,

914
00:57:43,080 --> 00:57:45,760
Speaker 1: that's too far, that's beyond the data. And so we

915
00:57:45,840 --> 00:57:47,840
Speaker 1: talked about that for a while and I kept pushing

916
00:57:47,880 --> 00:57:50,240
Speaker 1: it in his's no, and then we settled on what

917
00:57:50,440 --> 00:57:53,000
Speaker 1: the data actually meant. And so I think that's good

918
00:57:53,040 --> 00:57:55,640
Speaker 1: to have criticism within a team as well. We started

919
00:57:55,720 --> 00:57:58,200
Speaker 1: arguing last night about what was that thinking O the

920
00:57:59,120 --> 00:58:10,320
Speaker 1: heard of criticism this morning at both their fists up. Yeah, no, um,

921
00:58:11,440 --> 00:58:14,400
Speaker 1: but this is what we do you should be doing. Yeah,

922
00:58:14,440 --> 00:58:17,000
Speaker 1: this is what you should be doing. That's useful to

923
00:58:17,040 --> 00:58:18,480
Speaker 1: get a lot of the stuff out of the way,

924
00:58:18,560 --> 00:58:21,720
Speaker 1: just amongst your own team. Exactly right. Wouldn't you rather

925
00:58:21,760 --> 00:58:24,080
Speaker 1: be embarrassed in front of your friends than publicly in

926
00:58:24,160 --> 00:58:27,960
Speaker 1: front of everybody that doesn't like you? For sure? You

927
00:58:28,040 --> 00:58:30,320
Speaker 1: just shoot a bunch of holes before you even got started.

928
00:58:30,440 --> 00:58:32,640
Speaker 1: It's the only way to go. It's the only way

929
00:58:32,720 --> 00:58:35,240
Speaker 1: to go. I mean, look, we all want our papers

930
00:58:35,320 --> 00:58:38,320
Speaker 1: to be well received, and the only way to ensure

931
00:58:38,440 --> 00:58:42,000
Speaker 1: that is to, you know, give it that harshest criticism.

932
00:58:42,120 --> 00:58:45,560
Speaker 1: You can find out all the holes before somebody else

933
00:58:45,640 --> 00:58:49,240
Speaker 1: exposes them. I want to I wanna move I want

934
00:58:49,280 --> 00:58:50,920
Speaker 1: to move on to what we were doing yesterday and

935
00:58:51,600 --> 00:58:54,520
Speaker 1: where those questions were born of and what exactly happened.

936
00:58:54,520 --> 00:58:56,320
Speaker 1: But first I want to get into another mystery that

937
00:58:56,360 --> 00:59:00,200
Speaker 1: I found out yesterday. Uh John Hayes from from He's

938
00:59:00,240 --> 00:59:05,400
Speaker 1: tax to me, you don't you don't do birds and fish? No,

939
00:59:05,560 --> 00:59:09,560
Speaker 1: by no longer mountain birds and fish. Like he just

940
00:59:09,720 --> 00:59:15,000
Speaker 1: like flat out turned business down yesterday. Max. Hey, when

941
00:59:15,000 --> 00:59:17,120
Speaker 1: you made a tax servist that doesn't do birds and fish,

942
00:59:17,160 --> 00:59:20,160
Speaker 1: you're talking to a man that knows what he's doing. Max.

943
00:59:20,400 --> 00:59:25,720
Speaker 1: I've never seen someone so defeated in my life up

944
00:59:26,520 --> 00:59:33,840
Speaker 1: and just dude walked away like just like deflated. What's

945
00:59:33,880 --> 00:59:36,360
Speaker 1: up with that? Real quick? Um, or take as long

946
00:59:36,400 --> 00:59:40,400
Speaker 1: as you want, trying to like just figure out where

947
00:59:40,440 --> 00:59:44,760
Speaker 1: the passion for me really is. Um. My experience on

948
00:59:44,880 --> 00:59:49,400
Speaker 1: birds and ducks was very early on. Uh all the fish,

949
00:59:49,640 --> 00:59:51,720
Speaker 1: you know, we we did mostly skin mounts back then.

950
00:59:52,200 --> 00:59:55,400
Speaker 1: I did a little bit of reproductions. And it's just

951
00:59:55,680 --> 00:59:58,240
Speaker 1: not my strong suit. And for me to take something

952
00:59:58,320 --> 01:00:02,040
Speaker 1: in and know that at best it's going to be okay,

953
01:00:03,040 --> 01:00:05,000
Speaker 1: I just I can't do that. But what if you

954
01:00:05,160 --> 01:00:08,240
Speaker 1: have to do a diorama? I would hire it out

955
01:00:08,520 --> 01:00:14,200
Speaker 1: by somebody that was financial. No, it's it's it's financially

956
01:00:14,600 --> 01:00:16,560
Speaker 1: you know you can you can prop it off, Yeah,

957
01:00:16,720 --> 01:00:19,040
Speaker 1: you just have to be good at it. And I

958
01:00:19,160 --> 01:00:22,000
Speaker 1: don't feel that I'm at that level to charge somebody

959
01:00:22,240 --> 01:00:26,680
Speaker 1: that is it connected to personal passion inside the outdoors too,

960
01:00:26,760 --> 01:00:29,480
Speaker 1: like you don't care about or you're not as interested.

961
01:00:29,720 --> 01:00:34,840
Speaker 1: He hates birds and fishing. He wishes he wishes they

962
01:00:34,840 --> 01:00:38,280
Speaker 1: were gone. No, um, I think it. Uh, it just

963
01:00:38,360 --> 01:00:40,640
Speaker 1: didn't hold the same fascination for me that the other

964
01:00:40,680 --> 01:00:43,480
Speaker 1: stuff did. There's also like if if you into a

965
01:00:44,400 --> 01:00:47,640
Speaker 1: restaurant that was fine dining, their menu is significantly smaller

966
01:00:47,720 --> 01:00:49,640
Speaker 1: than if you were like Applebee's where you can get

967
01:00:49,960 --> 01:00:54,320
Speaker 1: tacos and spaghetti and hamburgers. Good signed the Fine Dining

968
01:00:54,920 --> 01:01:00,720
Speaker 1: Hayes Tax the Studio, the Fine red Menu. Clay Clay

969
01:01:00,760 --> 01:01:03,760
Speaker 1: had a little Clay really broke John Hayes's heart yesterday

970
01:01:03,840 --> 01:01:06,960
Speaker 1: with Clay said something like, uh talking of someone else,

971
01:01:07,000 --> 01:01:16,480
Speaker 1: said not a friend, you know, friend friend, I said,

972
01:01:16,480 --> 01:01:18,840
Speaker 1: I'm really close to this one tax service. Well, I mean,

973
01:01:18,960 --> 01:01:23,080
Speaker 1: you know, like you would be to a tax You

974
01:01:23,120 --> 01:01:32,800
Speaker 1: gotta know how close to you? So my friend No,

975
01:01:32,960 --> 01:01:34,680
Speaker 1: he looked at me and he said, Clay, what are

976
01:01:34,720 --> 01:01:40,200
Speaker 1: we like? What am I to you? Uh? All right,

977
01:01:40,280 --> 01:01:44,640
Speaker 1: So I don't care what you guys, does it met David?

978
01:01:45,720 --> 01:01:47,800
Speaker 1: How Let's say you ran into someone and you had

979
01:01:47,840 --> 01:01:49,760
Speaker 1: like three seconds to say, what we did yesterday? What

980
01:01:49,800 --> 01:01:54,000
Speaker 1: do we do yesterday? We tested the effectiveness of different

981
01:01:54,080 --> 01:01:57,640
Speaker 1: Clovis tools for butchering a bison. That's great. I've been

982
01:01:57,680 --> 01:01:59,600
Speaker 1: looking for a way to describe it. I went a

983
01:01:59,640 --> 01:02:02,160
Speaker 1: little too deep. My wife kind of lost her I

984
01:02:02,240 --> 01:02:06,240
Speaker 1: think you lost her grip strength. Well, she was also

985
01:02:06,360 --> 01:02:08,760
Speaker 1: we were also trying to do our daughters school open house,

986
01:02:08,800 --> 01:02:10,560
Speaker 1: and I was also trying to explain all this. Always

987
01:02:10,600 --> 01:02:13,400
Speaker 1: had just had that in my back pocket, I could

988
01:02:13,400 --> 01:02:18,960
Speaker 1: have gotten over it more quickly. Okay, Uh, in greater detail,

989
01:02:19,040 --> 01:02:22,160
Speaker 1: now what happened and just lay the whole thing out,

990
01:02:22,400 --> 01:02:27,120
Speaker 1: like what what sort of deep questions are there that

991
01:02:27,320 --> 01:02:32,480
Speaker 1: this could be a little window into answering. So we're

992
01:02:32,720 --> 01:02:36,880
Speaker 1: always interested in better interpreting the stuff we dig up

993
01:02:36,920 --> 01:02:42,240
Speaker 1: in the archaeological record and experiments, uh, and sort of

994
01:02:42,320 --> 01:02:46,840
Speaker 1: replicating different tools can give us windows into what we

995
01:02:46,920 --> 01:02:49,960
Speaker 1: are digging up, because you know, obviously the stuff we

996
01:02:50,080 --> 01:02:53,640
Speaker 1: dig up, it doesn't people aren't around anymore. They can't

997
01:02:53,680 --> 01:02:56,320
Speaker 1: tell us how this stuff was used. Um, but we

998
01:02:56,440 --> 01:02:59,840
Speaker 1: know the past was a very dynamic place. So by

999
01:03:00,040 --> 01:03:03,000
Speaker 1: making tools and using those tools, we can kind of

1000
01:03:03,680 --> 01:03:06,600
Speaker 1: get a better sense of that dyna dynanism or how

1001
01:03:06,640 --> 01:03:10,320
Speaker 1: do you say that word diamondism, dynamics past past dynamic.

1002
01:03:10,440 --> 01:03:14,880
Speaker 1: That's much better. Um. And so what we did yesterday

1003
01:03:15,040 --> 01:03:19,840
Speaker 1: was we made some Clovis fluted points and he met

1004
01:03:19,920 --> 01:03:25,479
Speaker 1: and made him Yeah, this is this is about both

1005
01:03:25,600 --> 01:03:28,439
Speaker 1: Dr Meltzer and Metton have been on the show before,

1006
01:03:28,440 --> 01:03:31,120
Speaker 1: and we talked about how come he doesn't get to

1007
01:03:31,160 --> 01:03:34,400
Speaker 1: be a doctor to Dr Matton, Dr Eric, Well, that's

1008
01:03:34,400 --> 01:03:38,560
Speaker 1: a good point. I worked. I worked really hard to

1009
01:03:38,640 --> 01:03:43,280
Speaker 1: get him a PhD. He did. I don't know why.

1010
01:03:43,320 --> 01:03:49,040
Speaker 1: I think because maybe, um he's professor. Oh, well you're not.

1011
01:03:49,560 --> 01:03:52,080
Speaker 1: I'm well, I'm tenured, but I'm not full professor yet.

1012
01:03:52,440 --> 01:03:56,240
Speaker 1: It totally has to do with age. I mean, could

1013
01:03:56,360 --> 01:03:58,200
Speaker 1: I think it does. That's what I was going to

1014
01:03:58,320 --> 01:04:02,080
Speaker 1: just say. Yeah, because you're compared to me, you're probably

1015
01:04:02,080 --> 01:04:06,560
Speaker 1: young Will little whipper snapper, Yeah, you should be calling

1016
01:04:06,600 --> 01:04:12,440
Speaker 1: me Mr Renell. Doctor Meltzer has been out of the

1017
01:04:12,480 --> 01:04:17,040
Speaker 1: show to discuss his books and things. Oh. I was

1018
01:04:17,040 --> 01:04:20,680
Speaker 1: going to ask about this earlier. Where's the book about

1019
01:04:20,720 --> 01:04:26,400
Speaker 1: the High Colorado site? I didn't send that to you know,

1020
01:04:26,560 --> 01:04:28,680
Speaker 1: you sure talked about sending it to me. It's out.

1021
01:04:29,440 --> 01:04:31,960
Speaker 1: Note to self, send Steve a book or where can

1022
01:04:32,040 --> 01:04:35,560
Speaker 1: people find that book? A University of Colorado Press. And

1023
01:04:35,680 --> 01:04:38,439
Speaker 1: I presume it's on Amazon, just like what's it called,

1024
01:04:39,200 --> 01:04:42,800
Speaker 1: um Mountaineer A Fulsome Winter Camp in the Rockies. It

1025
01:04:42,960 --> 01:04:47,200
Speaker 1: is on my list. And and the new additions, okay,

1026
01:04:47,520 --> 01:04:49,720
Speaker 1: and then there's the new edition of the First People's Book,

1027
01:04:49,760 --> 01:04:52,640
Speaker 1: which both of them came out last year. I guess,

1028
01:04:53,480 --> 01:04:55,520
Speaker 1: I guess after I was on the show. I was

1029
01:04:55,560 --> 01:04:58,280
Speaker 1: on the show last spring. So yes, both both books

1030
01:04:58,280 --> 01:05:01,240
Speaker 1: are now out. What changes from the addition did new edition?

1031
01:05:02,520 --> 01:05:10,880
Speaker 1: The most important change is the genetics because bucks the

1032
01:05:11,040 --> 01:05:19,480
Speaker 1: mountain here it is, you sold out the Mountaineer site.

1033
01:05:20,600 --> 01:05:23,280
Speaker 1: You got to release this after we get the book, Steve. Now,

1034
01:05:23,440 --> 01:05:25,880
Speaker 1: it's gonna be sold out by now before I'm gonna

1035
01:05:25,880 --> 01:05:29,200
Speaker 1: get in there. Now, Hamet, it might be available, okay,

1036
01:05:29,400 --> 01:05:32,040
Speaker 1: well no, no, it's on one second, the Mountaineer site,

1037
01:05:32,880 --> 01:05:37,720
Speaker 1: A Fulsome Winter Camp in the Rockies. David Meltzer and

1038
01:05:38,600 --> 01:05:42,040
Speaker 1: Brian Andrews and Mark Stugger three of us Metton, Metton

1039
01:05:42,080 --> 01:05:44,640
Speaker 1: and I did the chapter on the projectile points and

1040
01:05:44,840 --> 01:05:53,320
Speaker 1: the scrapers. Fifty four bucks for a paperback. I know,

1041
01:05:53,440 --> 01:05:57,120
Speaker 1: I know, you personally set the price right, just pay

1042
01:05:57,240 --> 01:06:00,920
Speaker 1: him directly. There's so there's two in stock. I'm grabbing

1043
01:06:00,920 --> 01:06:02,680
Speaker 1: one him for me, call you out the other one. Yes,

1044
01:06:03,120 --> 01:06:08,800
Speaker 1: we're getting all right. We just bought you out. Thank you.

1045
01:06:08,960 --> 01:06:11,600
Speaker 1: They're to go back. I can just hear a Burgrease

1046
01:06:11,680 --> 01:06:14,960
Speaker 1: podcast now on the on the mountaineer side, I had

1047
01:06:14,960 --> 01:06:16,640
Speaker 1: a lot of fun on the falsome one. Clay Let's

1048
01:06:16,720 --> 01:06:19,640
Speaker 1: let's mountain people. People still talk about that one. I

1049
01:06:20,160 --> 01:06:23,600
Speaker 1: think it's video. I think, well, look into my car

1050
01:06:23,840 --> 01:06:28,439
Speaker 1: is a hello baby video baby monitor with remote camera? What? Well,

1051
01:06:28,760 --> 01:06:32,160
Speaker 1: you know what, there's a news to break my wife.

1052
01:06:32,320 --> 01:06:34,280
Speaker 1: My wife was just telling me about a baby shower.

1053
01:06:34,360 --> 01:06:39,800
Speaker 1: I'm gonna put that and save it for later. And okay,

1054
01:06:39,800 --> 01:06:42,360
Speaker 1: I'm and check out. Alright, Soccers, if you try to

1055
01:06:42,440 --> 01:06:46,960
Speaker 1: buy his book Mountaineer, good look, Steve's gonna be listed

1056
01:06:47,000 --> 01:06:53,440
Speaker 1: now for an do a little book business, all right,

1057
01:06:53,480 --> 01:06:55,600
Speaker 1: So go on. Oh, one more thing I want to

1058
01:06:55,600 --> 01:06:57,920
Speaker 1: ask about before you really get into it. In the

1059
01:06:58,000 --> 01:06:59,880
Speaker 1: same book I just read, they had that Clo Vincia

1060
01:07:00,000 --> 01:07:05,000
Speaker 1: A beautiful chapter. I had no idea. Um, it sort

1061
01:07:05,040 --> 01:07:07,520
Speaker 1: of goes in like, well, roughly how many Clovis points

1062
01:07:07,560 --> 01:07:12,120
Speaker 1: of archaeologists found? Does about what you want up be? In?

1063
01:07:12,480 --> 01:07:14,880
Speaker 1: Ten thousand? Is what I had seen? Somewhere around ten

1064
01:07:14,960 --> 01:07:20,640
Speaker 1: thousand Clovis sites Clovis points points. Around ten thousand Clovis

1065
01:07:20,680 --> 01:07:23,840
Speaker 1: points are in existence known to archaeologists, not counting coffee

1066
01:07:23,920 --> 01:07:28,400
Speaker 1: cans and people's closer it's thirteen five now that you

1067
01:07:28,480 --> 01:07:32,960
Speaker 1: say that, Yeah, it's funny when you see that number online. Uh,

1068
01:07:33,280 --> 01:07:35,720
Speaker 1: it says like only ten thousands, so they're really rare,

1069
01:07:36,680 --> 01:07:39,840
Speaker 1: not knowing like uh, you know, having a reference to

1070
01:07:39,880 --> 01:07:41,960
Speaker 1: that number ten thousands, like, whoa, there's a lot of them,

1071
01:07:42,120 --> 01:07:46,760
Speaker 1: but but apparently not. What's striking is how few sites

1072
01:07:46,840 --> 01:07:50,120
Speaker 1: we have. We've got a lot of isolated points that

1073
01:07:50,240 --> 01:07:55,280
Speaker 1: are found just all over plowed fields whatever, principally in

1074
01:07:55,320 --> 01:07:59,480
Speaker 1: the Eastern US and these folks. But think about it,

1075
01:07:59,600 --> 01:08:04,760
Speaker 1: you're so John broke two of them yesterday, and and

1076
01:08:04,880 --> 01:08:07,960
Speaker 1: that was actually just fine. I really wanted the enormous

1077
01:08:08,000 --> 01:08:10,880
Speaker 1: grip strength. It was that grip strength. They just couldn't

1078
01:08:10,920 --> 01:08:13,880
Speaker 1: take it. Yeah. Um, and so you can imagine that

1079
01:08:13,960 --> 01:08:16,639
Speaker 1: you're making these things constantly over the course of your lifetime.

1080
01:08:16,920 --> 01:08:19,160
Speaker 1: So ten thousand is actually a pretty low number, and

1081
01:08:19,200 --> 01:08:21,519
Speaker 1: it's probably thirteen thousand is a low number, and you're

1082
01:08:21,520 --> 01:08:23,800
Speaker 1: sort of undercounting all the ones that are in those

1083
01:08:23,840 --> 01:08:28,599
Speaker 1: coffee cans or mounted you know, over somebody's fireplaces. There

1084
01:08:28,680 --> 01:08:32,120
Speaker 1: has to be far more, no question, that are on

1085
01:08:32,280 --> 01:08:35,360
Speaker 1: bolo ties and stuff. Yeah. Absolutely, And this is kind

1086
01:08:35,400 --> 01:08:37,880
Speaker 1: of like a brief window, right, like only a few

1087
01:08:37,920 --> 01:08:41,840
Speaker 1: centuries or something. Yeah, well sort of it. Um, it's

1088
01:08:41,880 --> 01:08:44,799
Speaker 1: kind of smeared across time and space. So the earliest

1089
01:08:44,840 --> 01:08:47,400
Speaker 1: stuff that we see, you know, it's thirteen five. Some

1090
01:08:47,520 --> 01:08:50,719
Speaker 1: of the later stuff, depending on where you define Clovis

1091
01:08:50,840 --> 01:08:55,080
Speaker 1: would be what do you say, met twelve six twelve

1092
01:08:55,160 --> 01:08:59,240
Speaker 1: five sort of northeastern North America. Well, and also too,

1093
01:08:59,320 --> 01:09:01,120
Speaker 1: I was just doing some number country. I know that

1094
01:09:01,200 --> 01:09:04,200
Speaker 1: ten thousand sounds like a lot, but if you have

1095
01:09:04,400 --> 01:09:08,519
Speaker 1: if you say Clovis is what five years, So thirteen

1096
01:09:08,600 --> 01:09:11,400
Speaker 1: thousand not necessarily all in one place, right, you know,

1097
01:09:11,600 --> 01:09:16,000
Speaker 1: that's that's eighteen points per year, um, which is not

1098
01:09:16,120 --> 01:09:18,000
Speaker 1: a lot if you think about it, right, how many

1099
01:09:18,040 --> 01:09:20,679
Speaker 1: did we bring out yesterday? Ten and how many needed

1100
01:09:20,720 --> 01:09:27,439
Speaker 1: to be repaired because of grip strength. Here eighteen closed

1101
01:09:27,479 --> 01:09:30,160
Speaker 1: points per year, which is not a lot. And when

1102
01:09:30,200 --> 01:09:31,960
Speaker 1: you think about the fact that you know, if you

1103
01:09:32,000 --> 01:09:33,720
Speaker 1: know what you're doing, you can make a closed point

1104
01:09:33,760 --> 01:09:37,720
Speaker 1: in thirty to forty minutes, So there's a lot still

1105
01:09:37,800 --> 01:09:39,880
Speaker 1: out there a few well, and also to just that's

1106
01:09:39,880 --> 01:09:42,599
Speaker 1: not a lot of work. We think, you know, these

1107
01:09:42,800 --> 01:09:44,760
Speaker 1: closed points are the end all and b all, but

1108
01:09:44,960 --> 01:09:48,040
Speaker 1: for closed folks they may not have been that important

1109
01:09:48,240 --> 01:09:50,800
Speaker 1: if you're not spending that much time per year to

1110
01:09:50,920 --> 01:09:54,679
Speaker 1: make them. And we were working with Clovis tools yesterday,

1111
01:09:54,720 --> 01:09:57,800
Speaker 1: which is it accuracy. That's the oldest tool we have

1112
01:09:58,400 --> 01:10:01,760
Speaker 1: from humans in North America. I think you'd say they

1113
01:10:01,840 --> 01:10:05,440
Speaker 1: are among the earliest or some of the earliest artifacts.

1114
01:10:05,720 --> 01:10:09,720
Speaker 1: They're they're certainly the most distinctive early form and the

1115
01:10:09,840 --> 01:10:12,439
Speaker 1: most widespread form that we know about. And and they're

1116
01:10:12,520 --> 01:10:15,439
Speaker 1: like thirteen thousand years old. But humans had been here

1117
01:10:15,479 --> 01:10:18,280
Speaker 1: fifteen thousand years ago, maybe twenty five thousand years ago.

1118
01:10:18,320 --> 01:10:20,720
Speaker 1: What were they doing for those thousands of years? Not

1119
01:10:20,920 --> 01:10:25,240
Speaker 1: using Clovis? Yeah, No, it's it's earlier cultures. So cultures

1120
01:10:25,320 --> 01:10:30,400
Speaker 1: change over time, and as a consequence, uh, the distinctive weaponry,

1121
01:10:30,760 --> 01:10:35,160
Speaker 1: hunting tools, butchering tools, knives, whatever changes as well. And

1122
01:10:35,200 --> 01:10:38,120
Speaker 1: now there are certain things that you know are pretty timeless.

1123
01:10:38,600 --> 01:10:41,400
Speaker 1: The scraper, Yeah, and that met and made that proved

1124
01:10:41,439 --> 01:10:45,160
Speaker 1: to be kind of not very useful yesterday. Uh. You

1125
01:10:45,240 --> 01:10:48,240
Speaker 1: can see similar forms going back hundreds of thousands of years,

1126
01:10:49,040 --> 01:10:51,160
Speaker 1: uh and coming all the way up to recent times.

1127
01:10:51,360 --> 01:10:53,760
Speaker 1: We are you asking like what were they? So if

1128
01:10:53,760 --> 01:10:56,120
Speaker 1: Clovis is thirteen and we've been here for fifteen, what

1129
01:10:56,200 --> 01:10:58,439
Speaker 1: did they do for the fifteen hundred years before clothes?

1130
01:10:58,600 --> 01:11:00,760
Speaker 1: And I guess I'm kind of asking like, was Clovis

1131
01:11:01,160 --> 01:11:04,040
Speaker 1: arrowhead one point oh? Or was there it was? Was

1132
01:11:04,120 --> 01:11:06,280
Speaker 1: it maybe like five point oh? But we just don't

1133
01:11:06,320 --> 01:11:08,280
Speaker 1: have one through four. Well. I think the other thing

1134
01:11:08,320 --> 01:11:11,080
Speaker 1: to keep in mind is even though people might have

1135
01:11:11,160 --> 01:11:14,280
Speaker 1: been or we're in North America, that doesn't necessarily mean

1136
01:11:14,320 --> 01:11:17,320
Speaker 1: they were everywhere in North America. I think there are

1137
01:11:17,360 --> 01:11:21,200
Speaker 1: some areas where Clovis would have been first, you know,

1138
01:11:21,320 --> 01:11:24,479
Speaker 1: maybe New England, maybe the the Upper Great Lakes, um

1139
01:11:25,080 --> 01:11:27,840
Speaker 1: and and so you know where we get they might

1140
01:11:27,880 --> 01:11:31,200
Speaker 1: have been the first people to in some regions some reasons.

1141
01:11:31,439 --> 01:11:33,759
Speaker 1: So when we say that people were here fifteen thousand

1142
01:11:33,840 --> 01:11:36,760
Speaker 1: years ago. That doesn't mean everywhere. That's a good point.

1143
01:11:36,800 --> 01:11:39,120
Speaker 1: Never that never occurred to me. Yeah, you could have

1144
01:11:39,200 --> 01:11:42,120
Speaker 1: had like that stuff along the Columbia River or whatever

1145
01:11:42,200 --> 01:11:45,120
Speaker 1: people that were using salmon resources. But that doesn't mean

1146
01:11:45,200 --> 01:11:47,760
Speaker 1: they were hanging out because I mean, the Great Lakes

1147
01:11:47,800 --> 01:11:50,680
Speaker 1: covered with ice. I can't live on a glacier, so

1148
01:12:00,320 --> 01:12:04,599
Speaker 1: I derailed us. But back to the bison. Talk about

1149
01:12:04,640 --> 01:12:06,880
Speaker 1: what we did and how that might prove to be

1150
01:12:07,360 --> 01:12:08,880
Speaker 1: like what we were up to, how it might prove

1151
01:12:08,960 --> 01:12:12,040
Speaker 1: to be useful or not so. Uh. We made a

1152
01:12:12,320 --> 01:12:16,400
Speaker 1: bunch of replica Clovis tools, fluted points and large what

1153
01:12:16,479 --> 01:12:20,599
Speaker 1: we call bifacial thinning flakes which are really sharp, and uh,

1154
01:12:20,880 --> 01:12:24,160
Speaker 1: we did all sorts of analyzes before we did any

1155
01:12:24,240 --> 01:12:27,599
Speaker 1: butchery on these tools. We made sure that the Clovis

1156
01:12:27,680 --> 01:12:32,080
Speaker 1: points matched in terms of their form actual Clovis artifacts.

1157
01:12:32,720 --> 01:12:35,639
Speaker 1: We did something called microware, which is where you look

1158
01:12:35,680 --> 01:12:38,720
Speaker 1: at these tools with a high powered microscope to look

1159
01:12:38,800 --> 01:12:41,360
Speaker 1: at polishes and striations and all that sort of stuff

1160
01:12:41,400 --> 01:12:45,400
Speaker 1: that the tools could be used for. Um we did, Uh,

1161
01:12:46,080 --> 01:12:48,400
Speaker 1: what else did we do? We did so many pre analyzes. Um,

1162
01:12:48,520 --> 01:12:52,519
Speaker 1: But anyway, the point is you guys then took those

1163
01:12:52,560 --> 01:12:56,240
Speaker 1: tools you butchered the bison, and now we can relook

1164
01:12:56,280 --> 01:12:59,519
Speaker 1: at those tools to see what they look like, and

1165
01:13:00,160 --> 01:13:03,240
Speaker 1: we can compare those things to the actual archaeological records.

1166
01:13:03,280 --> 01:13:06,760
Speaker 1: So what you guys get an idea of what they

1167
01:13:06,840 --> 01:13:08,960
Speaker 1: were doing with some of the tools that we have found.

1168
01:13:09,160 --> 01:13:11,760
Speaker 1: And so let's say we find an archaeological site with

1169
01:13:12,320 --> 01:13:16,280
Speaker 1: Clovis point and some bison, and we see a bunch

1170
01:13:16,320 --> 01:13:19,360
Speaker 1: of Clovis points from that site, but there's no microware

1171
01:13:19,720 --> 01:13:23,439
Speaker 1: that matches the microware that you guys produced. Well, that's

1172
01:13:23,479 --> 01:13:26,400
Speaker 1: really interesting. Why is that? Why is that microware different

1173
01:13:26,479 --> 01:13:29,200
Speaker 1: in the archaeological record versus the ones you guys produced. Now,

1174
01:13:29,280 --> 01:13:31,640
Speaker 1: if it's the same, that's really interesting too, and it

1175
01:13:31,720 --> 01:13:36,360
Speaker 1: shows that maybe similar activities were happening. But as we

1176
01:13:36,479 --> 01:13:40,240
Speaker 1: talked about yesterday, um that whole issue of equifinality, Lots

1177
01:13:40,280 --> 01:13:42,720
Speaker 1: of different processes can result in the same product. So

1178
01:13:42,800 --> 01:13:45,640
Speaker 1: what we're trying to understand is, Okay, we got some

1179
01:13:45,960 --> 01:13:50,479
Speaker 1: signatures yesterday on the stone tools, so we'll at least know, Okay,

1180
01:13:50,560 --> 01:13:53,519
Speaker 1: one of the possible pathways to that particular product would

1181
01:13:53,520 --> 01:13:55,759
Speaker 1: be the kinds of activities we saw you guys engaging

1182
01:13:55,840 --> 01:13:59,800
Speaker 1: in yesterday. Uh, let me give it. I want to

1183
01:14:00,000 --> 01:14:02,840
Speaker 1: give it from my angle for a secon. So we

1184
01:14:03,040 --> 01:14:07,240
Speaker 1: long ago, UM, we've all become acquaintances through this show

1185
01:14:07,680 --> 01:14:11,760
Speaker 1: and um crin tell the history of how tell the

1186
01:14:11,840 --> 01:14:13,400
Speaker 1: history of this because you kind of understand a little

1187
01:14:13,400 --> 01:14:17,640
Speaker 1: bit better. Yeah, we've probably been talking about this for

1188
01:14:17,760 --> 01:14:22,320
Speaker 1: quite some time. I know on Metton's episode he had

1189
01:14:22,360 --> 01:14:26,600
Speaker 1: talked about getting some of the crew together, who you know,

1190
01:14:26,720 --> 01:14:30,439
Speaker 1: have had a lot of experience butchering, processing, breaking down

1191
01:14:31,560 --> 01:14:36,519
Speaker 1: large game UM, getting them together to potentially participate in

1192
01:14:36,640 --> 01:14:40,800
Speaker 1: some kind of experiment if we were able to identify

1193
01:14:41,640 --> 01:14:45,240
Speaker 1: either a bison or an elephant that might need to

1194
01:14:45,320 --> 01:14:51,880
Speaker 1: be called that's right. Yeah, it's not always easy to

1195
01:14:54,080 --> 01:14:58,080
Speaker 1: there's and then there's concerned. There's there's an ethical concerns.

1196
01:14:58,320 --> 01:15:02,320
Speaker 1: Ye yep, and uh, you know with kind of our

1197
01:15:03,320 --> 01:15:07,560
Speaker 1: larger web of folks were connected to UM in the

1198
01:15:07,640 --> 01:15:11,760
Speaker 1: animal business. In the animal business, finding there was an

1199
01:15:11,840 --> 01:15:19,200
Speaker 1: elephant potentially on the table for us, we felt as

1200
01:15:19,240 --> 01:15:21,719
Speaker 1: though we would hit and we still might. We felt

1201
01:15:21,760 --> 01:15:25,639
Speaker 1: as though we'd hit on some zookeeper somewhere who had

1202
01:15:25,760 --> 01:15:31,120
Speaker 1: to euthanize an elephant, or there's an accident. I don't know,

1203
01:15:31,600 --> 01:15:34,920
Speaker 1: I don't know. And we thought that if that person

1204
01:15:35,080 --> 01:15:37,720
Speaker 1: knew that there, that it could potentially and then you

1205
01:15:37,960 --> 01:15:40,519
Speaker 1: you have an elephant that it gets euthanized, that it

1206
01:15:40,600 --> 01:15:44,000
Speaker 1: might be that there's some donated to science. Yeah, that

1207
01:15:44,040 --> 01:15:46,719
Speaker 1: there'd be that that that person sent that that person's

1208
01:15:46,720 --> 01:15:51,040
Speaker 1: sensitivities and sensibilities might say, well, knowing that we're in

1209
01:15:51,120 --> 01:15:56,920
Speaker 1: this unfortunate, unavoidable circumstance, and perhaps right there would be

1210
01:15:57,439 --> 01:16:00,479
Speaker 1: the body would be put to use by searchers. So

1211
01:16:00,520 --> 01:16:02,000
Speaker 1: we thought we would just be able to connect some

1212
01:16:02,120 --> 01:16:05,840
Speaker 1: dots that might otherwise not get connected, just through audience reach.

1213
01:16:06,520 --> 01:16:08,720
Speaker 1: And that led us down this thing of working on

1214
01:16:08,800 --> 01:16:12,320
Speaker 1: this project UM where we did the bison work. And

1215
01:16:12,400 --> 01:16:16,840
Speaker 1: so we started out with a um A commercially. It

1216
01:16:16,960 --> 01:16:20,920
Speaker 1: was a commercially raised bison from a producer who does

1217
01:16:22,400 --> 01:16:27,880
Speaker 1: uh North Bridger bison. He does custom slaughter, So he

1218
01:16:28,400 --> 01:16:33,080
Speaker 1: raises animals and sells those animals and he sells them

1219
01:16:33,400 --> 01:16:36,599
Speaker 1: while they're still alive. People he knows, he knows he's

1220
01:16:36,640 --> 01:16:38,720
Speaker 1: going to produce X number. You can come in and

1221
01:16:38,760 --> 01:16:42,200
Speaker 1: he sells shares um. He even talked about that he

1222
01:16:42,760 --> 01:16:45,160
Speaker 1: had a bowl that he was selling his ground and

1223
01:16:45,280 --> 01:16:47,559
Speaker 1: he had eight purchasers for one bowl, or you could

1224
01:16:47,560 --> 01:16:49,080
Speaker 1: buy a half for a hole or whatever it help.

1225
01:16:49,120 --> 01:16:52,200
Speaker 1: That's his business. Uh. We started with a fresh dead

1226
01:16:52,280 --> 01:16:56,280
Speaker 1: two year old bull. We did the same, the same

1227
01:16:56,360 --> 01:16:59,280
Speaker 1: exact sort of approach you do for ground butchering any

1228
01:16:59,520 --> 01:17:02,280
Speaker 1: large animal. And we had a bunch of people collected

1229
01:17:02,360 --> 01:17:06,960
Speaker 1: five butchers who all have extensive field butchering experience. When

1230
01:17:07,000 --> 01:17:10,040
Speaker 1: of those included John Hayes, who's done more skinning and

1231
01:17:10,520 --> 01:17:15,280
Speaker 1: fleshing than any of us. Uh. And we did the animal.

1232
01:17:15,680 --> 01:17:19,960
Speaker 1: We did it by doing the primary opening cut, basically

1233
01:17:20,000 --> 01:17:24,920
Speaker 1: running anus to chin, and then we um worked on

1234
01:17:25,120 --> 01:17:28,519
Speaker 1: half of it using one collection of tools, skinned half

1235
01:17:28,560 --> 01:17:30,720
Speaker 1: of it using one collection of tools, skin the other

1236
01:17:30,760 --> 01:17:33,840
Speaker 1: half using a different collection to tools, and bone the

1237
01:17:33,960 --> 01:17:38,719
Speaker 1: thing down into all the primaries. And I went into

1238
01:17:38,800 --> 01:17:42,840
Speaker 1: it thinking that we were gonna be working under UH.

1239
01:17:43,840 --> 01:17:45,760
Speaker 1: I half thought that we'd end up working in the

1240
01:17:45,800 --> 01:17:48,519
Speaker 1: headlights of a car. I told my life that I

1241
01:17:48,560 --> 01:17:50,280
Speaker 1: would be I told my wife I'd be home at

1242
01:17:50,320 --> 01:17:53,080
Speaker 1: nine thirty. Last night. I was home at five. I

1243
01:17:53,160 --> 01:17:55,080
Speaker 1: was like, we're probably gonna wind up, we're gonna have

1244
01:17:55,080 --> 01:17:56,519
Speaker 1: a bunch of trucks point and head. That would have

1245
01:17:56,520 --> 01:17:58,840
Speaker 1: been pretty demoralizing if you had shared that with us

1246
01:17:58,920 --> 01:18:01,680
Speaker 1: when we were going. But I just I feel like

1247
01:18:01,800 --> 01:18:04,760
Speaker 1: these things never are on schedule. It's just not gonna

1248
01:18:04,800 --> 01:18:08,000
Speaker 1: be as easy as it seems. I thought it would be. Uh,

1249
01:18:09,360 --> 01:18:10,560
Speaker 1: I thought it'd be very hard to do it with

1250
01:18:10,640 --> 01:18:13,920
Speaker 1: these tools, But in fact it was like an all

1251
01:18:14,080 --> 01:18:16,800
Speaker 1: honesty man, It's I felt like it took about as

1252
01:18:16,880 --> 01:18:20,519
Speaker 1: long as it would have taken. It wasn't a major

1253
01:18:21,479 --> 01:18:25,679
Speaker 1: a major difference in time. I mean it it took

1254
01:18:25,800 --> 01:18:29,400
Speaker 1: more time, but not a substantial amount more time. I mean,

1255
01:18:29,439 --> 01:18:32,720
Speaker 1: I think we scanned a whole adult bison and under

1256
01:18:32,800 --> 01:18:37,240
Speaker 1: two hours in the quarters, and then even had a

1257
01:18:37,280 --> 01:18:40,320
Speaker 1: guy well, I mean, I guess that even counts debone

1258
01:18:40,360 --> 01:18:43,000
Speaker 1: in it. And now there were five of us and

1259
01:18:43,520 --> 01:18:47,960
Speaker 1: we were trying to work efficiently. And the parts of it,

1260
01:18:48,200 --> 01:18:52,679
Speaker 1: the opening making opening cuts was a lot different. Anything

1261
01:18:52,760 --> 01:18:55,960
Speaker 1: that required a little finassal was different. But just in

1262
01:18:56,160 --> 01:18:58,479
Speaker 1: terms of someone holding the leg and someone pulling the

1263
01:18:58,560 --> 01:19:01,000
Speaker 1: hide and you're cutting the fast you know, you're caughting.

1264
01:19:02,040 --> 01:19:05,000
Speaker 1: No difference there was. There was one point where I said,

1265
01:19:05,080 --> 01:19:08,200
Speaker 1: the biggest limiting factor for what I was doing deboning

1266
01:19:08,280 --> 01:19:10,720
Speaker 1: a quarter was that it was a bison, not that

1267
01:19:10,880 --> 01:19:12,880
Speaker 1: I had a stone tool in my hand. It was

1268
01:19:12,920 --> 01:19:14,720
Speaker 1: just the sheer size of it. And then I was

1269
01:19:14,800 --> 01:19:17,920
Speaker 1: one person trying to constantly rotate this thing. So it

1270
01:19:18,040 --> 01:19:21,719
Speaker 1: wasn't even like that much less effishing in some ways

1271
01:19:22,200 --> 01:19:25,560
Speaker 1: what I pointed out. What I pointed out, I was

1272
01:19:25,640 --> 01:19:28,160
Speaker 1: texting my brother Danny about what I've been up to

1273
01:19:28,560 --> 01:19:31,519
Speaker 1: um and he was like, man, it takes because they

1274
01:19:31,520 --> 01:19:34,519
Speaker 1: actually hunt them a fair bit in Alaska. There's draws

1275
01:19:34,640 --> 01:19:36,880
Speaker 1: you can do to draw for these different herds they have.

1276
01:19:37,640 --> 01:19:39,640
Speaker 1: He says, Man, it takes me a lot longer than

1277
01:19:39,640 --> 01:19:41,599
Speaker 1: that with a normal knife. And I said, well, there's

1278
01:19:41,680 --> 01:19:44,120
Speaker 1: five people, and I said, and also consider this, we

1279
01:19:44,320 --> 01:19:52,200
Speaker 1: had uh stone tools expert, who's there sharpening for us?

1280
01:19:52,280 --> 01:19:54,400
Speaker 1: So we're all you know, so we had It was

1281
01:19:54,479 --> 01:19:56,800
Speaker 1: different than if you start even with a normal knife,

1282
01:19:56,880 --> 01:19:58,920
Speaker 1: if you don't, if you're not a good sharpening you

1283
01:19:58,920 --> 01:20:01,000
Speaker 1: don't have sharpening equipment, you hit a point where you're

1284
01:20:01,040 --> 01:20:04,840
Speaker 1: just pisting into the wind. But we were so we

1285
01:20:04,960 --> 01:20:08,639
Speaker 1: had like someone they're doing giving us like razor edged

1286
01:20:09,640 --> 01:20:12,439
Speaker 1: sharpened tools. You know. The way I've thought about it

1287
01:20:12,560 --> 01:20:16,120
Speaker 1: and would describe it is that if I had one

1288
01:20:16,200 --> 01:20:22,439
Speaker 1: of Dr Aaron's points Clovis points in my pouch and

1289
01:20:22,560 --> 01:20:25,840
Speaker 1: went deer hunting back in Arkansas tomorrow and killed a deer,

1290
01:20:26,120 --> 01:20:29,360
Speaker 1: I wouldn't worry about skinning it with that stone point.

1291
01:20:29,400 --> 01:20:31,599
Speaker 1: I mean, it wouldn't be a factor. I wouldn't be like, hey,

1292
01:20:31,640 --> 01:20:33,760
Speaker 1: I'm gonna be three hours late coming home because I

1293
01:20:33,800 --> 01:20:35,599
Speaker 1: got a field dress to steer with a stone point.

1294
01:20:35,880 --> 01:20:42,599
Speaker 1: It would have just been like, okay, of course, a right. Yeah.

1295
01:20:42,640 --> 01:20:45,720
Speaker 1: And another huge takeaway from me was that a Clovis

1296
01:20:46,000 --> 01:20:50,880
Speaker 1: point makes the hell of a Clovis knife. Yeah, I mean,

1297
01:20:51,320 --> 01:20:53,400
Speaker 1: but that's probably the way they were using them though, right. Well,

1298
01:20:54,120 --> 01:20:56,479
Speaker 1: And what was cool too yesterday with you ask them

1299
01:20:57,000 --> 01:21:00,280
Speaker 1: was that the two different tools seemed to pune auction

1300
01:21:00,960 --> 01:21:05,519
Speaker 1: better for certain tasks. So like the Clovis point worked

1301
01:21:05,600 --> 01:21:08,759
Speaker 1: good for some things, whereas those big bifacial thinning flakes

1302
01:21:08,800 --> 01:21:11,240
Speaker 1: worked better for other things. Should we clarify that right now?

1303
01:21:11,360 --> 01:21:13,439
Speaker 1: We've said a couple of times, but so we had

1304
01:21:13,640 --> 01:21:16,800
Speaker 1: we had to like Clovis points that would have been

1305
01:21:17,000 --> 01:21:21,679
Speaker 1: napped that were connected with artificial sinew to a wooden

1306
01:21:21,800 --> 01:21:26,600
Speaker 1: handle that basically looked like knives in multiple sizes, and

1307
01:21:27,120 --> 01:21:30,240
Speaker 1: we were we were told to pick a pick a

1308
01:21:30,840 --> 01:21:35,040
Speaker 1: numbered Clovis knife essentially, and you guys recorded which knives

1309
01:21:35,080 --> 01:21:37,960
Speaker 1: we were using. We butchered one whole side of the

1310
01:21:38,000 --> 01:21:41,280
Speaker 1: bison with these Clovis knives that you had made. The

1311
01:21:41,400 --> 01:21:45,479
Speaker 1: second side of the bison, we butchered with big, big,

1312
01:21:46,040 --> 01:21:49,840
Speaker 1: big flint flakes that silica kind of like discs almost yeah,

1313
01:21:49,880 --> 01:21:53,280
Speaker 1: that you would pick it up on the where the

1314
01:21:53,520 --> 01:21:56,880
Speaker 1: handle is real sharp. But but yeah, yeah, exactly, yeah,

1315
01:21:56,960 --> 01:21:59,840
Speaker 1: minus the handle and sharp, so you would pick them

1316
01:21:59,880 --> 01:22:02,559
Speaker 1: up on the ground and not recognized that they were

1317
01:22:02,920 --> 01:22:05,240
Speaker 1: made by man. I mean, it's just a flake, a

1318
01:22:05,400 --> 01:22:08,920
Speaker 1: big like flake, the size of the palm of your hand.

1319
01:22:09,479 --> 01:22:12,600
Speaker 1: And we butchered an entire side with those, and I

1320
01:22:13,080 --> 01:22:16,120
Speaker 1: was used. I went with the leather, used a piece

1321
01:22:16,160 --> 01:22:19,360
Speaker 1: of leather your fingers. Yeah, and it it works pretty good.

1322
01:22:19,840 --> 01:22:21,439
Speaker 1: Oh hey, you know how he just said, mate, you

1323
01:22:21,439 --> 01:22:24,120
Speaker 1: wouldn't recognize as being made by man. Can you there's

1324
01:22:24,120 --> 01:22:25,439
Speaker 1: a thing I want to talk about, what we forgot

1325
01:22:25,479 --> 01:22:26,800
Speaker 1: talk about. Can you talk about what you guys are

1326
01:22:26,800 --> 01:22:30,080
Speaker 1: doing in Antarctica. Yeah, we have a paper coming out

1327
01:22:30,320 --> 01:22:34,840
Speaker 1: in the journal Antiquity, and uh we uh, you know,

1328
01:22:34,880 --> 01:22:38,599
Speaker 1: there's lots of claims for archaeological sites being real old

1329
01:22:38,640 --> 01:22:42,600
Speaker 1: in different places, and the claims are dependent on the

1330
01:22:42,760 --> 01:22:46,760
Speaker 1: rocks themselves. What people think are stone tools, like a

1331
01:22:46,840 --> 01:22:48,960
Speaker 1: lot of the stuff I send you pictures of yeah, yeah,

1332
01:22:49,160 --> 01:22:52,600
Speaker 1: and this, yeah, and you know, because it fits so

1333
01:22:52,760 --> 01:22:55,400
Speaker 1: nicely in the hand, or there's like even flakes taken

1334
01:22:55,439 --> 01:22:59,080
Speaker 1: off and things like that. So uh, it occurred to uh,

1335
01:22:59,200 --> 01:23:01,760
Speaker 1: sort of our group of researchers um that you know,

1336
01:23:01,920 --> 01:23:04,599
Speaker 1: if we could find a place somewhere on Earth where

1337
01:23:04,880 --> 01:23:07,599
Speaker 1: humans had never been, that would be a great natural

1338
01:23:07,680 --> 01:23:11,880
Speaker 1: laboratory for looking at how flint and basalt and obsidian

1339
01:23:12,240 --> 01:23:16,200
Speaker 1: fracture geologically just in their sort of natural habitat without

1340
01:23:16,280 --> 01:23:21,439
Speaker 1: humans around. And so we went first to the Polar

1341
01:23:21,600 --> 01:23:26,120
Speaker 1: Rock Repository in Columbus, Ohio, and then this past summer

1342
01:23:26,200 --> 01:23:29,040
Speaker 1: we went to the British Antarctic Survey in Cambridge, England,

1343
01:23:29,720 --> 01:23:32,040
Speaker 1: and we just started going through all sorts of their

1344
01:23:32,120 --> 01:23:37,200
Speaker 1: rock collections, millions of rocks, and what we found really

1345
01:23:37,320 --> 01:23:41,719
Speaker 1: questioned for me, uh, what exactly we know about stone

1346
01:23:41,800 --> 01:23:47,960
Speaker 1: because we're finding stone tools with morphologies that are quite advanced,

1347
01:23:48,400 --> 01:23:51,400
Speaker 1: So things that look like hand axes, things that look

1348
01:23:51,560 --> 01:23:54,599
Speaker 1: like they could have been made by Neanderthals, all sorts

1349
01:23:54,640 --> 01:23:56,920
Speaker 1: of simple stone flakes like the one you know is

1350
01:23:57,000 --> 01:23:59,200
Speaker 1: being held right here in the studio. Like you you

1351
01:23:59,240 --> 01:24:01,400
Speaker 1: could find stuff the would look like that, but we're

1352
01:24:01,439 --> 01:24:05,679
Speaker 1: saying it wasn't made by But these were Antarctic rocks.

1353
01:24:06,200 --> 01:24:10,240
Speaker 1: We know that these were not made by people or

1354
01:24:10,320 --> 01:24:17,120
Speaker 1: hominence or monkeys primates, um. So it's real scary. Yeah.

1355
01:24:17,320 --> 01:24:20,760
Speaker 1: The challenge is that, um, a lot of artifacts don't

1356
01:24:20,840 --> 01:24:24,720
Speaker 1: have attributes that are that are obviously and distinctively and

1357
01:24:24,800 --> 01:24:28,000
Speaker 1: securely made evidence that they were made by humans. So

1358
01:24:28,080 --> 01:24:30,920
Speaker 1: you often have to look at the context. What Menton

1359
01:24:31,080 --> 01:24:33,680
Speaker 1: is doing in Antarctica is showing, Okay, we've got a

1360
01:24:33,720 --> 01:24:36,840
Speaker 1: completely geological context, and yet we have things that look

1361
01:24:36,880 --> 01:24:41,200
Speaker 1: like artifacts someone might elsewhere claim is evidence of human

1362
01:24:41,240 --> 01:24:44,479
Speaker 1: absolutely absolutely, And you know, if the if the context

1363
01:24:44,600 --> 01:24:46,600
Speaker 1: is a little ambiguous and it's you know, if it's not.

1364
01:24:46,960 --> 01:24:48,760
Speaker 1: If you've got something that you're not quite sure it's

1365
01:24:48,760 --> 01:24:50,640
Speaker 1: an artifact, but it's sitting next to a hearth and

1366
01:24:50,680 --> 01:24:53,280
Speaker 1: you've got a bunch of smashed animal bones and you've

1367
01:24:53,320 --> 01:24:56,599
Speaker 1: got evidence of a structure. Yeah, okay, the artifact might

1368
01:24:56,640 --> 01:24:59,360
Speaker 1: be ambiguous in terms of its attributes, but looking at

1369
01:24:59,400 --> 01:25:02,240
Speaker 1: the contact you say, okay, fine. The problem is is

1370
01:25:02,320 --> 01:25:06,799
Speaker 1: that when you've got situations where geology and geological processes

1371
01:25:06,840 --> 01:25:09,360
Speaker 1: have the opportunity to create mischief and make things that

1372
01:25:09,600 --> 01:25:13,040
Speaker 1: mimic artifacts, and that's the only thing you have, and

1373
01:25:13,160 --> 01:25:15,880
Speaker 1: you don't have a good archaeological context or other evidence

1374
01:25:15,960 --> 01:25:18,800
Speaker 1: that will confirm it, that's where it becomes problematic. And

1375
01:25:18,840 --> 01:25:21,920
Speaker 1: a lot of the claims for truly ancient sites are

1376
01:25:21,960 --> 01:25:26,120
Speaker 1: based on just these sort of ambiguous artifacts in ambiguous context,

1377
01:25:26,320 --> 01:25:29,200
Speaker 1: like here's a hundred thousand year old man and here's

1378
01:25:29,200 --> 01:25:32,080
Speaker 1: a sharp rock exactly right. And so what Menton is

1379
01:25:32,160 --> 01:25:34,160
Speaker 1: able to show, where we'll be able to show with

1380
01:25:34,240 --> 01:25:37,080
Speaker 1: this Antarctica stuff, is that do not be fooled. Just

1381
01:25:37,200 --> 01:25:39,240
Speaker 1: because something looks like it could be an artifact, that

1382
01:25:39,320 --> 01:25:41,360
Speaker 1: doesn't mean it is an artifact. You should label that

1383
01:25:41,439 --> 01:25:49,000
Speaker 1: paper probably ain't Clovis with these naturally occurring looking like tools.

1384
01:25:49,439 --> 01:25:52,519
Speaker 1: When first people's came into all these different areas and

1385
01:25:52,640 --> 01:25:54,960
Speaker 1: they found these rocks when they were like I need

1386
01:25:55,040 --> 01:25:57,920
Speaker 1: something to cut something with. Would that be like the

1387
01:25:58,000 --> 01:26:01,040
Speaker 1: original prototype? And then they decided we need to start

1388
01:26:01,080 --> 01:26:04,080
Speaker 1: replicating this. Yeah. So there's a few hypotheses for why

1389
01:26:04,200 --> 01:26:07,120
Speaker 1: people start to nap stone, and one of them is,

1390
01:26:07,479 --> 01:26:10,680
Speaker 1: uh inspired by the site called Takika, which is in

1391
01:26:10,760 --> 01:26:13,720
Speaker 1: East Africa at dates about three point three million, and

1392
01:26:14,280 --> 01:26:19,080
Speaker 1: uh there they've got cut marks on ungulates and bovid

1393
01:26:19,400 --> 01:26:23,880
Speaker 1: type creatures. And what they say, I don't know which

1394
01:26:23,960 --> 01:26:32,320
Speaker 1: which part? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, bo I always I

1395
01:26:32,360 --> 01:26:37,040
Speaker 1: thought was bovid. I don't, yeah, bovid. Yeah, but my

1396
01:26:37,840 --> 01:26:41,560
Speaker 1: doctor recently said tendis and I said, I thought it

1397
01:26:41,600 --> 01:26:47,920
Speaker 1: was tenightus because I don't know what it is. It

1398
01:26:47,960 --> 01:26:52,519
Speaker 1: sounds like a good doctor. But they think that basically

1399
01:26:52,920 --> 01:26:56,200
Speaker 1: austral Epithecus was using naturally sharp rocks that they would

1400
01:26:56,240 --> 01:27:00,160
Speaker 1: just pick up to cut mark bone. Now, maybe at

1401
01:27:00,200 --> 01:27:02,320
Speaker 1: that point they were like, it's a lot easier to

1402
01:27:02,479 --> 01:27:05,400
Speaker 1: break this stuff ourselves and scour the landscape looking for

1403
01:27:05,520 --> 01:27:08,640
Speaker 1: naturally sharp rocks. Were like, the rock Steve picked up

1404
01:27:08,720 --> 01:27:10,840
Speaker 1: works way better than my rock. How do I get

1405
01:27:10,880 --> 01:27:17,120
Speaker 1: one like Steve's. Well. Another piece of that, though, was

1406
01:27:17,479 --> 01:27:21,280
Speaker 1: when Clay asked for an axe to smash those ribs

1407
01:27:21,320 --> 01:27:24,519
Speaker 1: break him. Apart from the vertebral column. What he ended

1408
01:27:24,600 --> 01:27:27,200
Speaker 1: up doing, through no fault of his own, was the

1409
01:27:27,240 --> 01:27:29,960
Speaker 1: acts that he was using was getting fractured in flaked.

1410
01:27:30,360 --> 01:27:32,960
Speaker 1: One of the hypotheses about where tools come from in

1411
01:27:33,040 --> 01:27:35,639
Speaker 1: the in the original you know, to three million years ago,

1412
01:27:35,920 --> 01:27:39,760
Speaker 1: is that humans come on to a an animal kill.

1413
01:27:40,040 --> 01:27:42,680
Speaker 1: They haven't killed the animal because they're not capable of it, right,

1414
01:27:42,720 --> 01:27:45,559
Speaker 1: but some big predator did, and there's not a whole

1415
01:27:45,600 --> 01:27:47,519
Speaker 1: lot of meat left on the bones. So what do

1416
01:27:47,600 --> 01:27:51,160
Speaker 1: they do. Um, they grab a rock and they start

1417
01:27:51,240 --> 01:27:54,040
Speaker 1: wailing away at the long bones to try and get

1418
01:27:54,080 --> 01:27:56,400
Speaker 1: to the marrow, right, because that's something that the big

1419
01:27:56,520 --> 01:28:00,800
Speaker 1: cats or lion whatever aren't going to access. And in

1420
01:28:00,920 --> 01:28:05,679
Speaker 1: the process they create sharp flakes and a light bulb

1421
01:28:05,760 --> 01:28:08,160
Speaker 1: goes off and you think, sharp flakes, I can scrape

1422
01:28:08,160 --> 01:28:12,360
Speaker 1: meat off, right. So there's lots of ways in which

1423
01:28:12,439 --> 01:28:14,960
Speaker 1: the pathways could have ended up, you know, getting you

1424
01:28:15,000 --> 01:28:18,360
Speaker 1: know the possibility that John raised that Menton was talking

1425
01:28:18,360 --> 01:28:20,920
Speaker 1: about as well. Um, and we're just the sort of

1426
01:28:20,960 --> 01:28:24,640
Speaker 1: accident of your smashing a rock against bone and it

1427
01:28:24,760 --> 01:28:28,120
Speaker 1: breaks and you end up with well cut fingers and

1428
01:28:28,360 --> 01:28:30,960
Speaker 1: lots of really sharp flakes that you realize, Okay, I

1429
01:28:31,040 --> 01:28:33,680
Speaker 1: can use this one of the things that that I

1430
01:28:33,760 --> 01:28:36,880
Speaker 1: know you guys, you're reluctant to draw these hard you know,

1431
01:28:37,040 --> 01:28:40,160
Speaker 1: you're not reluctant. You can't draw these hard conclusions. And

1432
01:28:40,320 --> 01:28:43,080
Speaker 1: and like you pointed out, we're not ice age hunters.

1433
01:28:44,280 --> 01:28:46,920
Speaker 1: You know, we don't know what went on. You can't

1434
01:28:47,040 --> 01:28:51,120
Speaker 1: rule out we yourself, like we're kids messing around, you know,

1435
01:28:51,760 --> 01:28:55,240
Speaker 1: whatever they're doing there, throwing rocks that stuff and playing

1436
01:28:55,360 --> 01:28:59,880
Speaker 1: and smashing things. You know, you don't know what happened, right, Um,

1437
01:29:00,479 --> 01:29:02,439
Speaker 1: but I feel like you can take certain things like

1438
01:29:02,520 --> 01:29:06,720
Speaker 1: like flashing that hide. I feel like someone someone could

1439
01:29:06,800 --> 01:29:10,240
Speaker 1: arrive at this thing that that I don't know how

1440
01:29:10,280 --> 01:29:13,080
Speaker 1: they did it. They didn't do it that way. Yeah,

1441
01:29:13,200 --> 01:29:16,240
Speaker 1: So in in some ways experimental archaeology is really useful

1442
01:29:16,320 --> 01:29:19,880
Speaker 1: for showing how something definitely could not have happened. So,

1443
01:29:20,240 --> 01:29:22,719
Speaker 1: you know, like that scraper, right, So that's a situation

1444
01:29:22,800 --> 01:29:25,720
Speaker 1: where given the form of that scraper, you know, it

1445
01:29:25,800 --> 01:29:28,000
Speaker 1: doesn't look like you were able to flesh that hide

1446
01:29:28,360 --> 01:29:31,080
Speaker 1: with it. So and sort of go back to the

1447
01:29:31,160 --> 01:29:34,880
Speaker 1: drawing board and try a different form. I think, like

1448
01:29:35,040 --> 01:29:38,560
Speaker 1: with the scraper deal at during those times, what we

1449
01:29:38,640 --> 01:29:40,760
Speaker 1: were trying to get off the hide wouldn't have been

1450
01:29:40,920 --> 01:29:43,640
Speaker 1: like what I would deem as a waste product at

1451
01:29:43,680 --> 01:29:45,799
Speaker 1: my studio, or like I gotta get this soft disposed

1452
01:29:45,800 --> 01:29:46,960
Speaker 1: of it that I can get to what I need

1453
01:29:47,000 --> 01:29:48,639
Speaker 1: to do. I think they would have still been trying

1454
01:29:48,720 --> 01:29:50,720
Speaker 1: to harvest that and then need have been left with

1455
01:29:50,880 --> 01:29:53,000
Speaker 1: just like when you skin out of beaver and it

1456
01:29:53,080 --> 01:29:56,120
Speaker 1: air drives and you're just a light light film and

1457
01:29:56,280 --> 01:29:58,240
Speaker 1: trying to roll three quarters of an inch and meat

1458
01:29:58,320 --> 01:30:00,080
Speaker 1: off the hide. You know that would have been but

1459
01:30:00,240 --> 01:30:04,000
Speaker 1: you were still trying to consume. That's interesting. That's how

1460
01:30:04,040 --> 01:30:07,160
Speaker 1: I felt yesterday with like the shanks of the quarters,

1461
01:30:07,439 --> 01:30:10,439
Speaker 1: is that it took me as much time to get

1462
01:30:10,479 --> 01:30:13,439
Speaker 1: the meat off around like the shanks as it did

1463
01:30:13,520 --> 01:30:15,880
Speaker 1: the whole rest of the quarter. And so like I

1464
01:30:16,040 --> 01:30:18,880
Speaker 1: I could spend just as much time removing of the

1465
01:30:18,920 --> 01:30:22,040
Speaker 1: meat on a backham as I could removing the ten

1466
01:30:22,160 --> 01:30:24,000
Speaker 1: percent of the meat on a backham that came from

1467
01:30:24,040 --> 01:30:26,680
Speaker 1: the shanks. And I told Michelle, I was like, this

1468
01:30:26,840 --> 01:30:28,920
Speaker 1: just like, isn't kind of this isn't very reasonable to

1469
01:30:29,040 --> 01:30:32,200
Speaker 1: like get the lowest quality cut of meat and spend

1470
01:30:32,240 --> 01:30:34,840
Speaker 1: the same amount of time to get you know, ten

1471
01:30:35,000 --> 01:30:37,439
Speaker 1: percent of the yield. So like maybe they ate this

1472
01:30:37,520 --> 01:30:39,400
Speaker 1: off the bone. Maybe they just like didn't really need

1473
01:30:39,479 --> 01:30:41,760
Speaker 1: it that badly to get this this piece of meat

1474
01:30:42,080 --> 01:30:45,240
Speaker 1: um that was like the size of a I don't know,

1475
01:30:45,640 --> 01:30:48,600
Speaker 1: a water bottle off compared to everything else. You know.

1476
01:30:49,320 --> 01:30:51,759
Speaker 1: Here's the thought that I had while we're doing it yesterday,

1477
01:30:52,200 --> 01:30:56,240
Speaker 1: is that we're skinning this bison and we have all

1478
01:30:56,360 --> 01:30:59,280
Speaker 1: this other context of our human life around us. Like

1479
01:31:00,000 --> 01:31:03,640
Speaker 1: he needed to go to his daughter's open house. I

1480
01:31:03,680 --> 01:31:05,920
Speaker 1: couldn't make it. If you could make it, you know,

1481
01:31:06,160 --> 01:31:08,920
Speaker 1: we wanted to go have dinner at a restaurant. I mean,

1482
01:31:08,960 --> 01:31:10,920
Speaker 1: I'm just making stuff up. I'm making stuff up. Got

1483
01:31:11,040 --> 01:31:14,600
Speaker 1: to get to the processor and the way we we

1484
01:31:14,880 --> 01:31:20,120
Speaker 1: chose efficiency for every single decision that we made. We

1485
01:31:20,240 --> 01:31:23,120
Speaker 1: chose efficiency to skin the spice. And and I was

1486
01:31:23,200 --> 01:31:25,360
Speaker 1: thinking if, and we kind of talked about this yesterday,

1487
01:31:25,479 --> 01:31:28,080
Speaker 1: if there had been one of the Paleolithic hunters there

1488
01:31:28,160 --> 01:31:31,040
Speaker 1: with us and watching us, he undoubtedly would have done

1489
01:31:31,040 --> 01:31:33,519
Speaker 1: it different. Oh go and go read Make Go Read

1490
01:31:33,880 --> 01:31:37,800
Speaker 1: Make Prayers to the Raven by by the anthropologist Richard

1491
01:31:37,880 --> 01:31:40,479
Speaker 1: Kane Nelson when he talked when he's with the Koreya

1492
01:31:40,600 --> 01:31:46,000
Speaker 1: KRK what you do and don't do? Yeah, they skinning animals,

1493
01:31:46,640 --> 01:31:50,120
Speaker 1: they had so many. Yeah, superstition can't touch that. Spiritual

1494
01:31:50,320 --> 01:31:53,640
Speaker 1: can't like so can't do that. You can't move it

1495
01:31:53,800 --> 01:31:57,720
Speaker 1: that way, you know. Well, But here's my point is

1496
01:31:57,800 --> 01:32:03,839
Speaker 1: that that they eight what we did yesterday was literally

1497
01:32:04,040 --> 01:32:10,000
Speaker 1: like them walking onto a pile of worth of American

1498
01:32:10,040 --> 01:32:12,680
Speaker 1: dollar bills. I mean like this was their life. This

1499
01:32:12,880 --> 01:32:17,040
Speaker 1: was there the reason. There was no higher moment in

1500
01:32:17,160 --> 01:32:20,840
Speaker 1: their world other than just like family stuff. But it's like, man,

1501
01:32:20,880 --> 01:32:25,600
Speaker 1: we we this is what we were, professional hunters. We

1502
01:32:25,720 --> 01:32:29,760
Speaker 1: are now capable to take this that we're processing and

1503
01:32:30,000 --> 01:32:34,559
Speaker 1: live in peace for the next two months or whatever.

1504
01:32:34,880 --> 01:32:38,040
Speaker 1: And so just that mind frame would have caused them,

1505
01:32:38,120 --> 01:32:40,800
Speaker 1: I think, to potentially have done things totally different. Maybe

1506
01:32:40,880 --> 01:32:43,960
Speaker 1: they took two hours to get the shank off, or

1507
01:32:44,360 --> 01:32:48,320
Speaker 1: maybe they were running from short faced bears and chunked

1508
01:32:48,360 --> 01:32:50,960
Speaker 1: him into the woods. But bear in mind and managed

1509
01:32:51,040 --> 01:32:54,560
Speaker 1: to speak to this because bear in mind the we

1510
01:32:54,680 --> 01:32:57,840
Speaker 1: were doing something just to help them interpret what was

1511
01:32:58,040 --> 01:33:01,560
Speaker 1: from around them. But let let me get back to

1512
01:33:01,640 --> 01:33:05,000
Speaker 1: something you said yesterday though, Clay, you you said, imagine

1513
01:33:05,320 --> 01:33:07,640
Speaker 1: at the Fulsom site, you got thirty two bison that

1514
01:33:07,760 --> 01:33:10,479
Speaker 1: you've got a process. I think they would have gone

1515
01:33:10,520 --> 01:33:15,200
Speaker 1: for efficiency and speed under those circumstances, because, uh, those

1516
01:33:15,240 --> 01:33:17,400
Speaker 1: thirty two bison aren't going to butcher themselves, and you

1517
01:33:17,520 --> 01:33:20,799
Speaker 1: had evidence of that by the way they gourmet butchered

1518
01:33:20,880 --> 01:33:24,320
Speaker 1: them absolutely, which they were taking choice cuts, leaving some

1519
01:33:24,560 --> 01:33:27,839
Speaker 1: stuff moving moving fast because you know, thirty two animals,

1520
01:33:27,920 --> 01:33:31,200
Speaker 1: unless you've got a hundred butchers out there, um, and

1521
01:33:31,360 --> 01:33:33,439
Speaker 1: if you've got a small group, you better work fast

1522
01:33:33,439 --> 01:33:38,240
Speaker 1: because it's just not gonna it's eighty five degrees. Yeah,

1523
01:33:38,520 --> 01:33:41,320
Speaker 1: what's the closest and experiment has come to this before

1524
01:33:41,400 --> 01:33:44,679
Speaker 1: like what we did yesterday. There's been a few butchery

1525
01:33:44,760 --> 01:33:50,400
Speaker 1: experiments um on elephants and bison. Um. So you know,

1526
01:33:50,520 --> 01:33:53,320
Speaker 1: I think replicability and science is always important, you know,

1527
01:33:53,560 --> 01:33:56,719
Speaker 1: And I think we've made certain improvements on past studies,

1528
01:33:57,520 --> 01:34:00,559
Speaker 1: uh in terms of how we documented things, and we've

1529
01:34:00,600 --> 01:34:03,800
Speaker 1: made certain modifications to how things were documented. And but

1530
01:34:04,080 --> 01:34:06,760
Speaker 1: undoubtedly I think we were much more systematic about it.

1531
01:34:06,880 --> 01:34:10,880
Speaker 1: Yea more more systematic. But undoubtedly someone will use this

1532
01:34:11,000 --> 01:34:14,599
Speaker 1: study as a stepping stone to do it even better. Um,

1533
01:34:14,800 --> 01:34:18,080
Speaker 1: And that's the key point. There's no ever final word

1534
01:34:18,760 --> 01:34:20,800
Speaker 1: in science, and I think once you start thinking in

1535
01:34:20,840 --> 01:34:24,960
Speaker 1: those terms, you're in trouble. We we touched on I

1536
01:34:25,040 --> 01:34:26,920
Speaker 1: want to point out to people that in addition to

1537
01:34:26,960 --> 01:34:29,679
Speaker 1: you guys doing your work, we had we were able

1538
01:34:29,680 --> 01:34:32,880
Speaker 1: to document it. We had videographers there to document it

1539
01:34:32,960 --> 01:34:35,559
Speaker 1: in a way that was just there was around documenting

1540
01:34:35,560 --> 01:34:37,040
Speaker 1: the process. So you'll be able to see this whole

1541
01:34:37,040 --> 01:34:39,759
Speaker 1: thing play out eventually, in addition to reading the paper

1542
01:34:39,840 --> 01:34:42,040
Speaker 1: that you generate from it. But we spent a bunch

1543
01:34:42,080 --> 01:34:46,680
Speaker 1: of time talking about the stone. You're also interested in

1544
01:34:46,760 --> 01:34:50,559
Speaker 1: the bones. Can you explain? Well, I think David right. Um.

1545
01:34:50,800 --> 01:34:54,559
Speaker 1: So when you get to a kill site, you will find, uh,

1546
01:34:54,800 --> 01:34:58,639
Speaker 1: sometimes not always cut marks on bone. And those cut

1547
01:34:58,720 --> 01:35:02,560
Speaker 1: marks are presumably a consequence of the butchering process. And

1548
01:35:02,760 --> 01:35:04,559
Speaker 1: so one of the things that we were also paying

1549
01:35:04,720 --> 01:35:07,760
Speaker 1: close attention to and and John will be helping us

1550
01:35:07,840 --> 01:35:11,360
Speaker 1: on this is the activities that were done kind of

1551
01:35:11,439 --> 01:35:15,040
Speaker 1: around the bone. And when when John is able to

1552
01:35:15,160 --> 01:35:18,479
Speaker 1: get everything sort of all cleaned up, will ship the

1553
01:35:18,520 --> 01:35:20,760
Speaker 1: bones to Andrew Bone, who is out there with us

1554
01:35:21,360 --> 01:35:25,320
Speaker 1: yesterday and he's an expert in this kind of thing,

1555
01:35:25,479 --> 01:35:27,479
Speaker 1: and so he will be examining the cut marks on

1556
01:35:27,520 --> 01:35:30,640
Speaker 1: the bones because we actually once again have a have

1557
01:35:30,760 --> 01:35:33,880
Speaker 1: a link between the process and the product, so we

1558
01:35:34,000 --> 01:35:36,519
Speaker 1: know what was being done when you guys were hacking

1559
01:35:36,560 --> 01:35:40,519
Speaker 1: away at the ribs on both sides, right. Uh, So

1560
01:35:40,680 --> 01:35:43,360
Speaker 1: we'll be able to see what that look like and

1561
01:35:43,479 --> 01:35:47,920
Speaker 1: the difference between struggling with those flakes as you were,

1562
01:35:48,240 --> 01:35:50,840
Speaker 1: as opposed to using the Clovis points to really just

1563
01:35:50,960 --> 01:35:53,760
Speaker 1: pop them, uh and go right along the river back.

1564
01:35:54,439 --> 01:36:00,320
Speaker 1: You know, I've read that the Neanderthal's uh, there's evidence

1565
01:36:00,360 --> 01:36:05,760
Speaker 1: suggesting that they parted out there dead, that they like

1566
01:36:05,920 --> 01:36:09,640
Speaker 1: quartered out there dead. There's a couple of sites where, um,

1567
01:36:09,960 --> 01:36:12,200
Speaker 1: there might be evidence of cannibalism. I don't know if

1568
01:36:12,240 --> 01:36:14,400
Speaker 1: they quartered them out though, but they will find cut

1569
01:36:14,479 --> 01:36:19,080
Speaker 1: marks on is what I'm saying is that that's presumably

1570
01:36:19,160 --> 01:36:21,960
Speaker 1: that's because of cut mark cut marks. Yeah. Yeah, Um,

1571
01:36:22,080 --> 01:36:25,240
Speaker 1: so they do find cut marks on on some children.

1572
01:36:25,360 --> 01:36:26,960
Speaker 1: And you know, if times get tough and ice age

1573
01:36:27,000 --> 01:36:31,439
Speaker 1: Europe it's really cold, um, they'll find like that. Yeah.

1574
01:36:31,680 --> 01:36:34,800
Speaker 1: So we're gonna have to get a cadaver. I've tried

1575
01:36:41,240 --> 01:36:42,640
Speaker 1: to say it, but I want in on that. When

1576
01:36:42,680 --> 01:36:47,840
Speaker 1: you get that going, you know, experiments, if nothing, if

1577
01:36:47,920 --> 01:36:52,040
Speaker 1: nothing comes up sooner, I might leave my body that

1578
01:36:52,439 --> 01:36:54,519
Speaker 1: I thought about leaving my body. Um, you know, I

1579
01:36:54,600 --> 01:36:57,920
Speaker 1: might have a drawn up in my will that I

1580
01:36:58,080 --> 01:37:01,800
Speaker 1: want to be used in a cut ark. Wait a minute,

1581
01:37:01,960 --> 01:37:04,559
Speaker 1: you got this whole thing about being dumped for the grizzlies.

1582
01:37:04,560 --> 01:37:08,840
Speaker 1: I might change that. I think was going to We

1583
01:37:08,920 --> 01:37:10,760
Speaker 1: were all kind of getting used to that out. I'm

1584
01:37:10,760 --> 01:37:12,800
Speaker 1: always telling my kids, like, you're gonna have to quarter

1585
01:37:12,880 --> 01:37:15,760
Speaker 1: me out and dump me here. But I might do

1586
01:37:15,880 --> 01:37:18,280
Speaker 1: this as dead and make my kids work on the project,

1587
01:37:18,760 --> 01:37:20,920
Speaker 1: and then the Grizzlies can have access in the bones

1588
01:37:21,280 --> 01:37:25,559
Speaker 1: after dump the bones afterward. So so John will clean

1589
01:37:25,600 --> 01:37:28,120
Speaker 1: all the bones up in a way that doesn't add

1590
01:37:28,160 --> 01:37:30,120
Speaker 1: new marks to him. John, Yes, that is going to be.

1591
01:37:30,240 --> 01:37:32,000
Speaker 1: He's like, no, I scraped them all the scrape Yeah,

1592
01:37:33,439 --> 01:37:36,760
Speaker 1: scratched it all off. So we'll put him in a

1593
01:37:36,840 --> 01:37:39,840
Speaker 1: big tank for a few days of warm water to start.

1594
01:37:40,000 --> 01:37:42,000
Speaker 1: I'm also buying all the flesh off of it, and

1595
01:37:42,080 --> 01:37:44,040
Speaker 1: then once we finally get it to where it softens up,

1596
01:37:44,080 --> 01:37:47,320
Speaker 1: the will power wash it off. So'll be no tools introduced,

1597
01:37:47,680 --> 01:37:49,160
Speaker 1: and you'll be able to look and you'll be able

1598
01:37:49,200 --> 01:37:52,599
Speaker 1: to say, we know this is where it's cool. You'll say,

1599
01:37:53,160 --> 01:37:59,120
Speaker 1: we know that the marks on said femur we're made

1600
01:37:59,320 --> 01:38:03,240
Speaker 1: by a hafted Clovis point. Or we know that the

1601
01:38:03,320 --> 01:38:07,840
Speaker 1: marks on said feemur were made by a flake of

1602
01:38:07,960 --> 01:38:13,680
Speaker 1: a person with extraordinary grip strength. Right, so made by

1603
01:38:13,760 --> 01:38:19,000
Speaker 1: Clay um. And then later when you're digging around in

1604
01:38:19,040 --> 01:38:21,920
Speaker 1: some old bone bed and you see some marks, you

1605
01:38:22,040 --> 01:38:26,080
Speaker 1: might make a more educated guess if the marks are distinctive,

1606
01:38:26,720 --> 01:38:28,679
Speaker 1: If the marks are distinctive, and that will be something

1607
01:38:28,800 --> 01:38:31,640
Speaker 1: kind of interesting to find. And now I've got to

1608
01:38:31,680 --> 01:38:34,679
Speaker 1: bring this up on the fulsome site. There's some famous

1609
01:38:35,560 --> 01:38:38,879
Speaker 1: famous marks on the jawbone of one of the bison.

1610
01:38:39,360 --> 01:38:42,559
Speaker 1: Several actually, yeah, always on several of the bison up

1611
01:38:42,680 --> 01:38:45,479
Speaker 1: up on the on the lower jaw where they were

1612
01:38:45,880 --> 01:38:49,120
Speaker 1: distinctive cut marks on the jaw where it's believed they

1613
01:38:49,160 --> 01:38:51,840
Speaker 1: were cutting the tongues out. So when we're looking at

1614
01:38:51,920 --> 01:38:54,720
Speaker 1: the jaws of this bison, we'll be able to see

1615
01:38:54,800 --> 01:38:59,320
Speaker 1: whether Clay newcome in removing the tongue left his mark.

1616
01:39:00,120 --> 01:39:02,759
Speaker 1: Clay was nervous about doing it because he knew about

1617
01:39:04,400 --> 01:39:06,120
Speaker 1: he knew about those marks, and he didn't know if

1618
01:39:06,160 --> 01:39:08,040
Speaker 1: he was gonna be holder he on the way there,

1619
01:39:08,120 --> 01:39:11,559
Speaker 1: he brought up, like, what about bias, because I've seen

1620
01:39:11,680 --> 01:39:17,080
Speaker 1: those marks, and what if I can't resisting His name

1621
01:39:17,200 --> 01:39:22,720
Speaker 1: is in the marks, they're signed. That's to giveaway. I

1622
01:39:22,840 --> 01:39:25,000
Speaker 1: was paying attention when I was cutting that tongue out,

1623
01:39:25,040 --> 01:39:27,840
Speaker 1: because I cut to cut the tongue out, and uh

1624
01:39:28,600 --> 01:39:31,839
Speaker 1: I was I did everything just as efficient as possible,

1625
01:39:32,840 --> 01:39:35,280
Speaker 1: and uh, I don't think I touched that bone. Well,

1626
01:39:35,400 --> 01:39:38,439
Speaker 1: we don't see him all the time, so yeah, it's

1627
01:39:38,600 --> 01:39:41,479
Speaker 1: entirely possible. Now, it probably was slightly biased in the

1628
01:39:41,560 --> 01:39:44,439
Speaker 1: sense that you knew I would not have had him

1629
01:39:44,479 --> 01:39:46,720
Speaker 1: do it. We should have had John do it. I'm

1630
01:39:46,800 --> 01:39:49,120
Speaker 1: confident we left some tool marks on the ribs. Oh,

1631
01:39:49,280 --> 01:39:53,439
Speaker 1: I'm very confident. Yeah. Yeah, that was when I was

1632
01:39:53,439 --> 01:39:55,400
Speaker 1: going to bring up, like, what obviously is the way

1633
01:39:55,479 --> 01:39:57,200
Speaker 1: to go, and what obviously is not the way to go?

1634
01:39:57,560 --> 01:40:00,960
Speaker 1: Having a big giant chunk of what was that rock

1635
01:40:01,000 --> 01:40:05,160
Speaker 1: called Georgetown flint? Yeah, beating nine riffs of the giant

1636
01:40:05,200 --> 01:40:10,360
Speaker 1: trunk Georgetown flint. It's not the way we decided in retrospect,

1637
01:40:10,439 --> 01:40:13,360
Speaker 1: we should have given him a smaller hand axe, because

1638
01:40:13,400 --> 01:40:15,280
Speaker 1: there was just too much opportunity for that thing to

1639
01:40:15,320 --> 01:40:18,160
Speaker 1: fall apart the waves of force. We're having to travel

1640
01:40:18,280 --> 01:40:20,519
Speaker 1: too far through the thing before it got to the bone.

1641
01:40:21,240 --> 01:40:24,120
Speaker 1: Did Clovis use a braided rocks like what you might

1642
01:40:24,200 --> 01:40:28,960
Speaker 1: see in like Southwest hand axes like groundstone groundstone? No,

1643
01:40:29,160 --> 01:40:31,439
Speaker 1: not really, not really groundstone, but we do see a

1644
01:40:31,560 --> 01:40:36,679
Speaker 1: braiding stone that were used for um, perhaps in grinding

1645
01:40:36,720 --> 01:40:40,479
Speaker 1: the edges of Clovis points or in uh a straightening

1646
01:40:40,560 --> 01:40:42,960
Speaker 1: the shaft of a spear, but not hand axes made

1647
01:40:43,000 --> 01:40:45,679
Speaker 1: by just grinding away a rock to get an edge

1648
01:40:45,680 --> 01:40:48,479
Speaker 1: on it. No, they didn't like that stuff. No, they

1649
01:40:48,920 --> 01:40:52,280
Speaker 1: they're tool kid. Uh. In terms of production was very efficient,

1650
01:40:52,600 --> 01:40:54,479
Speaker 1: and I think it's because they're moving around so much

1651
01:40:54,560 --> 01:40:56,000
Speaker 1: and they got a lot to do. They didn't have

1652
01:40:56,080 --> 01:40:58,000
Speaker 1: six pod rock they like to carry. Who are no? No,

1653
01:40:58,160 --> 01:41:00,720
Speaker 1: So they're they're trying to basically get this rockdown in

1654
01:41:00,760 --> 01:41:06,519
Speaker 1: a portable form as quick as possible when you don't

1655
01:41:06,560 --> 01:41:08,000
Speaker 1: know where this is going to appear, because you got

1656
01:41:08,120 --> 01:41:11,240
Speaker 1: to do your whole submission process, do you know? No,

1657
01:41:11,479 --> 01:41:14,639
Speaker 1: I'm not yet. And we generally won't think too hard

1658
01:41:14,640 --> 01:41:17,680
Speaker 1: about the journal until we see the final paper and

1659
01:41:17,920 --> 01:41:20,120
Speaker 1: all the analyzes and stuff, because that can dictate where

1660
01:41:20,160 --> 01:41:21,720
Speaker 1: it goes. But but do you know you'll get a

1661
01:41:21,760 --> 01:41:25,240
Speaker 1: paper Yeah, we'll count out. Yeah, definitely, you feel like

1662
01:41:25,240 --> 01:41:27,559
Speaker 1: you'll get a paper out, I mean yeah. And when

1663
01:41:27,880 --> 01:41:30,519
Speaker 1: what's going to be a criticism of this study? When

1664
01:41:30,560 --> 01:41:34,680
Speaker 1: that anonymous feedback rolls in? Well, I think, uh, you know,

1665
01:41:36,680 --> 01:41:39,920
Speaker 1: I was about to say, not enough Neander. They'll be

1666
01:41:40,000 --> 01:41:43,439
Speaker 1: information that people may have wanted that we didn't collect, right,

1667
01:41:43,640 --> 01:41:45,479
Speaker 1: that will be criticism. That would be a criticism they

1668
01:41:45,560 --> 01:41:47,200
Speaker 1: might have done it in a different way. And but

1669
01:41:47,280 --> 01:41:50,160
Speaker 1: I think the great thing about experiments is that they

1670
01:41:50,200 --> 01:41:53,200
Speaker 1: can be redone like, if you excavate an archaeological site,

1671
01:41:53,240 --> 01:41:56,320
Speaker 1: you can't re excavate it, um. But with an experiment,

1672
01:41:56,600 --> 01:42:00,200
Speaker 1: you can do it again in alter variables um. And

1673
01:42:00,360 --> 01:42:03,800
Speaker 1: so I think that's a strength of experiments. So and

1674
01:42:03,960 --> 01:42:05,320
Speaker 1: how long will it take you to do all the

1675
01:42:05,360 --> 01:42:08,759
Speaker 1: work and analyze and write the paper? Uh? Several months

1676
01:42:08,840 --> 01:42:11,800
Speaker 1: and um, because once I get back, I'm gonna sort

1677
01:42:11,800 --> 01:42:14,760
Speaker 1: of give at my entire focus. But you gotta have

1678
01:42:14,840 --> 01:42:16,600
Speaker 1: the bones back before you can make it well, so

1679
01:42:17,040 --> 01:42:19,360
Speaker 1: we can work on other aspects. There's so many pieces

1680
01:42:19,439 --> 01:42:21,560
Speaker 1: to this in terms of the microware and the morphology

1681
01:42:21,600 --> 01:42:24,640
Speaker 1: at the Clovis points and efficiency all that sort of stuff. Um,

1682
01:42:24,800 --> 01:42:28,559
Speaker 1: we can work on the stone stuff until the bone

1683
01:42:28,600 --> 01:42:32,040
Speaker 1: stuff is wrong could be sent to Andrew. So yeah,

1684
01:42:32,200 --> 01:42:35,720
Speaker 1: all our boy, but real quick, just I think this

1685
01:42:35,760 --> 01:42:37,560
Speaker 1: would be a good time just to say how appreciative

1686
01:42:37,640 --> 01:42:40,479
Speaker 1: we are to collaborating with everyone and and meat eater

1687
01:42:40,640 --> 01:42:42,640
Speaker 1: and it's just been awesome. And I don't know if

1688
01:42:42,640 --> 01:42:45,160
Speaker 1: you remember, but in January when I was here, you

1689
01:42:45,240 --> 01:42:47,160
Speaker 1: asked me for something. Do you remember what you asked

1690
01:42:47,200 --> 01:42:50,880
Speaker 1: me for? Probably a whole bunch of Clovis points. You

1691
01:42:50,920 --> 01:42:52,720
Speaker 1: asked me for a falsome point. I did ask for

1692
01:42:52,760 --> 01:42:55,360
Speaker 1: a false point, and so I got a little something

1693
01:42:55,439 --> 01:43:01,360
Speaker 1: for you. Yeah, just open it real careful. Oh, a

1694
01:43:01,439 --> 01:43:04,720
Speaker 1: big white box about this big as a big birthday cake.

1695
01:43:05,680 --> 01:43:07,400
Speaker 1: And you have to do a little unwrapping too. Just

1696
01:43:09,240 --> 01:43:14,160
Speaker 1: Steve is opening a white box, childish grant on his face.

1697
01:43:14,400 --> 01:43:22,040
Speaker 1: All right, inside is another box. Oh, inside is another box, papers, crinkling, oh,

1698
01:43:22,320 --> 01:43:27,200
Speaker 1: smoking anticipation. I thought that's right. I wanted a Yeah,

1699
01:43:27,439 --> 01:43:30,080
Speaker 1: all that is gorgeous. Man. So just all of us,

1700
01:43:30,160 --> 01:43:32,960
Speaker 1: all the archaeologists, were just so appreciative and for all

1701
01:43:33,000 --> 01:43:34,720
Speaker 1: you guys, and so we thought that this would be

1702
01:43:35,240 --> 01:43:37,439
Speaker 1: something for you that you could look at and everyone

1703
01:43:37,479 --> 01:43:40,360
Speaker 1: could see. And a couple of clobus points halfted onto

1704
01:43:40,720 --> 01:43:44,560
Speaker 1: Port Orford fork shafts is gorgeous. So so it's a

1705
01:43:44,840 --> 01:43:50,679
Speaker 1: it's a box and like, how do you describe display

1706
01:43:51,000 --> 01:43:56,040
Speaker 1: like a treasure box? Display box with two halfted fulsome points,

1707
01:43:56,120 --> 01:43:58,360
Speaker 1: says to Stephen now and the meat Eater team fulsome

1708
01:43:58,400 --> 01:44:04,000
Speaker 1: points napped on Texas or Ridgetown, Church Gray and Fredericksburg

1709
01:44:04,200 --> 01:44:11,760
Speaker 1: churt Tan by m I Aaron hafted on Port Oxford

1710
01:44:11,880 --> 01:44:18,880
Speaker 1: Cedar four shafts by M. Wilson Man. Thank you the

1711
01:44:18,960 --> 01:44:23,439
Speaker 1: podcast studio worlds right here, man, Steve, can you show

1712
01:44:23,439 --> 01:44:26,880
Speaker 1: it to us? It's amazing, It's beautiful. It is wow,

1713
01:44:27,080 --> 01:44:30,240
Speaker 1: look at that. Thank you so much, very well done.

1714
01:44:30,960 --> 01:44:35,080
Speaker 1: Well it's gorgeous. Let pass it around while you're waiting

1715
01:44:35,080 --> 01:44:37,200
Speaker 1: for the paper to come out. Um you can go

1716
01:44:37,400 --> 01:44:40,400
Speaker 1: check out right ran while you're waiting for the paper

1717
01:44:40,479 --> 01:44:44,640
Speaker 1: to come out, and while you're waiting for this eventual

1718
01:44:45,760 --> 01:44:49,320
Speaker 1: episode to drop where you get to see everyone getting

1719
01:44:49,360 --> 01:44:53,280
Speaker 1: their hands real dirty and cut up using Clovis points.

1720
01:44:54,400 --> 01:45:00,880
Speaker 1: You can watch Meat Eater season eleven for free on

1721
01:45:00,960 --> 01:45:03,640
Speaker 1: our own website a window of time. It will be

1722
01:45:03,680 --> 01:45:07,920
Speaker 1: available for free um on ten October twenty six, you'll

1723
01:45:07,920 --> 01:45:11,280
Speaker 1: see an episode with me and Evan hay For from

1724
01:45:11,320 --> 01:45:14,680
Speaker 1: Black Rifle Coffee hunting the rainforests of Southeast Alaska for

1725
01:45:14,760 --> 01:45:20,920
Speaker 1: blacktail deer, getting our buns kicked untill the end. Um,

1726
01:45:21,400 --> 01:45:22,920
Speaker 1: So check that out while we're waiting for the paper

1727
01:45:22,920 --> 01:45:24,400
Speaker 1: to come out, and if you're waiting for the if

1728
01:45:24,400 --> 01:45:27,040
Speaker 1: you're waiting for the Mountaineer site, I don't know the

1729
01:45:27,120 --> 01:45:31,840
Speaker 1: Mountaineer site book. Me and Clai are taking bids. I'm

1730
01:45:31,880 --> 01:45:34,200
Speaker 1: sure they'll come up with other coffees to sell. It

1731
01:45:34,320 --> 01:45:37,400
Speaker 1: was said available soon season eleven. It's gonna be rolled out.

1732
01:45:37,479 --> 01:45:40,640
Speaker 1: It just starts on October one a week, one a

1733
01:45:40,720 --> 01:45:44,360
Speaker 1: week on our old website. Before we get can we

1734
01:45:44,400 --> 01:45:47,880
Speaker 1: talk about the email you sent last night? Metton? Yeah,

1735
01:45:49,439 --> 01:45:52,719
Speaker 1: he sent me an email. This is in all caps. Guys,

1736
01:45:52,760 --> 01:45:54,800
Speaker 1: got like a little side thing going on. Well, this

1737
01:45:54,960 --> 01:45:57,240
Speaker 1: is the this is the criticism we talked about earlier,

1738
01:45:58,080 --> 01:46:00,639
Speaker 1: disagreement from last night that's spilled over into the break

1739
01:46:00,680 --> 01:46:02,880
Speaker 1: room this morning. But I was really excited met and

1740
01:46:02,920 --> 01:46:05,960
Speaker 1: wrote me in the m LS night. Okay, I was,

1741
01:46:06,240 --> 01:46:09,720
Speaker 1: I was really enthusiastic. I'm just gonna preface that. So

1742
01:46:10,920 --> 01:46:13,760
Speaker 1: Zoll capt it says, Spencer, I think you so haved

1743
01:46:13,760 --> 01:46:17,400
Speaker 1: a huge mystery about Clovis technology. I am so freaking

1744
01:46:17,520 --> 01:46:27,040
Speaker 1: excited m M and then jealous. So let's let's let's

1745
01:46:27,240 --> 01:46:32,639
Speaker 1: let's hear about what what you think we discovered. Well, honestly,

1746
01:46:32,680 --> 01:46:34,200
Speaker 1: I think we got to save that for the paper.

1747
01:46:34,840 --> 01:46:41,000
Speaker 1: Yeah it's no, it's it's it has to do with

1748
01:46:41,360 --> 01:46:44,280
Speaker 1: the intentionality of of how these things were made. And

1749
01:46:45,040 --> 01:46:50,719
Speaker 1: so yeah, well yeah we'll get their major and Spencer

1750
01:46:50,760 --> 01:46:53,720
Speaker 1: did it. Spencer, Yeah, it's just it's a what's cool

1751
01:46:53,840 --> 01:46:55,960
Speaker 1: is it's a it's a new way of thinking about

1752
01:46:56,479 --> 01:46:59,360
Speaker 1: a feature of a Clovis point that is not in

1753
01:46:59,439 --> 01:47:03,040
Speaker 1: the literature. Wow, good job, Spencer. But it could all

1754
01:47:03,080 --> 01:47:04,960
Speaker 1: be wrong. It could be wrong, it could be wrong,

1755
01:47:05,960 --> 01:47:10,679
Speaker 1: but right if not, I still got a high last

1756
01:47:10,800 --> 01:47:15,439
Speaker 1: night from getting this email from men like my stomach. Yeah,

1757
01:47:15,479 --> 01:47:18,920
Speaker 1: it's like Shelby, I don't know what's going on. I

1758
01:47:19,040 --> 01:47:22,479
Speaker 1: may have just done something incredible. I think things might

1759
01:47:22,520 --> 01:47:31,559
Speaker 1: be looking up. I told you, all right, guys, thanks

1760
01:47:31,600 --> 01:47:33,960
Speaker 1: so much. It was a lot of fun. I'm not joking,

1761
01:47:34,080 --> 01:47:37,280
Speaker 1: I will I said yesterday like this is the highlight

1762
01:47:37,360 --> 01:47:42,400
Speaker 1: of my career. Um really, I mean like like a

1763
01:47:42,479 --> 01:47:44,559
Speaker 1: real high point. And another thing is I will talk

1764
01:47:44,600 --> 01:47:48,240
Speaker 1: about that in probably a very annoying way. I will

1765
01:47:48,280 --> 01:47:52,720
Speaker 1: talk about that for the rest of my life. So

1766
01:47:52,840 --> 01:47:55,880
Speaker 1: will we. And it makes me more like why have I,

1767
01:47:56,360 --> 01:48:00,519
Speaker 1: you know, why have I never done it? All that

1768
01:48:00,640 --> 01:48:02,920
Speaker 1: knowing about oh you can flint knives and da da

1769
01:48:02,960 --> 01:48:06,959
Speaker 1: da da da like that it took this many decades

1770
01:48:08,120 --> 01:48:10,080
Speaker 1: and someone else to lay the whole thing out for

1771
01:48:10,200 --> 01:48:12,040
Speaker 1: me to just do it, like put you're an animal

1772
01:48:12,080 --> 01:48:14,800
Speaker 1: with a flint knife. I just for two I don't

1773
01:48:14,880 --> 01:48:17,000
Speaker 1: understand why I never did it. Just well it worked

1774
01:48:17,000 --> 01:48:19,639
Speaker 1: out with the podcast and just everyone start of getting

1775
01:48:19,640 --> 01:48:22,120
Speaker 1: to know each other and just but to be able

1776
01:48:22,200 --> 01:48:26,519
Speaker 1: to do it with stuff that looks like it's like,

1777
01:48:26,720 --> 01:48:29,360
Speaker 1: to be able to do it with stuff that resembles

1778
01:48:29,840 --> 01:48:33,439
Speaker 1: and is made from the materials left behind actual Clovis sites,

1779
01:48:34,479 --> 01:48:37,519
Speaker 1: um was was fantastic. And I think for us to

1780
01:48:37,720 --> 01:48:41,080
Speaker 1: all of your observations using those things, absolutely we were

1781
01:48:41,120 --> 01:48:43,360
Speaker 1: taking notes on what you guys were saying and when

1782
01:48:43,439 --> 01:48:46,080
Speaker 1: you were complaining, when you were happy, we were making notes,

1783
01:48:46,160 --> 01:48:47,840
Speaker 1: so what was working and well it wasn't. That was

1784
01:48:47,880 --> 01:48:50,759
Speaker 1: really helpful because with your knowledge of how to process

1785
01:48:50,800 --> 01:48:53,960
Speaker 1: these animals, like, we will look at these tools in

1786
01:48:54,120 --> 01:48:57,200
Speaker 1: new ways and and so that's I think just the

1787
01:48:57,600 --> 01:49:04,479
Speaker 1: benefit of this collaboration. Elephants next, and then folks the

1788
01:49:04,560 --> 01:49:09,400
Speaker 1: same spot. Hey, I know we're closing down, so we

1789
01:49:09,479 --> 01:49:11,800
Speaker 1: can't get into this at all, but I just gotta

1790
01:49:11,840 --> 01:49:14,479
Speaker 1: say it. I mean, I killed a bear with a

1791
01:49:14,600 --> 01:49:18,040
Speaker 1: stone point like five days ago. It's interesting that all

1792
01:49:18,120 --> 01:49:20,360
Speaker 1: this happened. It's first time I've ever hunted with well

1793
01:49:20,640 --> 01:49:22,960
Speaker 1: I've hunted with a stone point before. First time I've

1794
01:49:23,000 --> 01:49:25,080
Speaker 1: ever killed that on the stone, just like for another

1795
01:49:25,160 --> 01:49:28,160
Speaker 1: day with a falsome point. I watched the video that

1796
01:49:28,320 --> 01:49:30,479
Speaker 1: the little video clip of it last night. That's what

1797
01:49:30,880 --> 01:49:33,080
Speaker 1: people will be able to see it, And and Dr

1798
01:49:33,160 --> 01:49:39,479
Speaker 1: Meltzer was because, right, that's another story. How and when

1799
01:49:39,600 --> 01:49:42,800
Speaker 1: will it be be able to see it? Class The

1800
01:49:43,200 --> 01:49:45,760
Speaker 1: release date is unknown at this time. I don't think

1801
01:49:45,800 --> 01:49:48,439
Speaker 1: I can go into the release date, but but there

1802
01:49:48,479 --> 01:49:52,479
Speaker 1: will be a a film put out through Meat either.

1803
01:49:53,400 --> 01:49:55,840
Speaker 1: Dr David Meltzer is one of our feature guests. We

1804
01:49:55,960 --> 01:49:58,160
Speaker 1: go to we went to New Mexico. We went to

1805
01:49:58,200 --> 01:50:01,200
Speaker 1: the Folsom site. Yeah, and and then we've made some

1806
01:50:01,320 --> 01:50:04,559
Speaker 1: falsome points and I killed a bear with a falsome point.

1807
01:50:04,720 --> 01:50:07,120
Speaker 1: So run out by the old run that good thing.

1808
01:50:07,160 --> 01:50:09,960
Speaker 1: He doesn't have to run that by the old ethics committee. Yeah.

1809
01:50:10,240 --> 01:50:12,920
Speaker 1: Oh I'm ready, man. I don't know what I'm just saying.

1810
01:50:13,000 --> 01:50:15,640
Speaker 1: These guys have a whole higher level of like, you

1811
01:50:15,720 --> 01:50:17,920
Speaker 1: know what I mean, they got put up. They don't

1812
01:50:17,960 --> 01:50:20,760
Speaker 1: just call a couple of guys and they're like, yeah,

1813
01:50:23,479 --> 01:50:27,880
Speaker 1: I don't know, yeah, go for it. Uh, thank you

1814
01:50:27,960 --> 01:50:31,280
Speaker 1: so much, guys, thank you, thank you for this. I'm

1815
01:50:31,280 --> 01:50:33,160
Speaker 1: not gonna hog it. I'm not gonna put it in

1816
01:50:33,240 --> 01:50:37,600
Speaker 1: my bedroom. We're gonna keep in the studio here. Appreciate it,

1817
01:50:37,640 --> 01:51:00,040
Speaker 1: all righty body, thank you very much. On