1 00:00:03,000 --> 00:00:05,840 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind from how stup 2 00:00:05,880 --> 00:00:14,560 Speaker 1: works dot com. Hey, you welcome to Stuff to Blow 3 00:00:14,600 --> 00:00:16,640 Speaker 1: your Mind. My name is Robert Lamb and I'm Joe 4 00:00:16,720 --> 00:00:18,840 Speaker 1: McCormick and Robert. I've got a question for you about 5 00:00:18,920 --> 00:00:22,880 Speaker 1: childhood divination practices. Did you ever do this thing when 6 00:00:22,880 --> 00:00:25,799 Speaker 1: you were a kid that I definitely did where you 7 00:00:25,840 --> 00:00:28,400 Speaker 1: were worried about some question you wanted an answer like 8 00:00:28,640 --> 00:00:30,720 Speaker 1: am I going to get in trouble because I said 9 00:00:30,760 --> 00:00:33,760 Speaker 1: butt head on the playground? And what you do is 10 00:00:33,880 --> 00:00:37,560 Speaker 1: you go to some book, probably the Bible or any book, 11 00:00:37,600 --> 00:00:40,320 Speaker 1: but especially the Bible, and you just open to a 12 00:00:40,400 --> 00:00:43,040 Speaker 1: random page and you close your eyes and you put 13 00:00:43,080 --> 00:00:45,760 Speaker 1: your finger on a verse, and then you look down 14 00:00:46,240 --> 00:00:49,920 Speaker 1: and it says, now Jehoram, the son of Ahab, began 15 00:00:50,000 --> 00:00:53,720 Speaker 1: to reign over Israel and Samaria the eighteenth year of Jehosaphat, 16 00:00:53,800 --> 00:00:57,440 Speaker 1: king of Judah, and reigned twelve years. That's the problem 17 00:00:57,480 --> 00:01:01,000 Speaker 1: about randomly generated Bible quote patients is that you might 18 00:01:01,040 --> 00:01:04,000 Speaker 1: get something really juicy and thoughtful and helpful. You might 19 00:01:04,080 --> 00:01:08,640 Speaker 1: get something that's just an incident of hideous violence from 20 00:01:08,640 --> 00:01:12,680 Speaker 1: the ancient past or some sort of of psychedelic prophecy, 21 00:01:12,800 --> 00:01:14,840 Speaker 1: you're very likely to get a list of progen a 22 00:01:15,000 --> 00:01:18,080 Speaker 1: or something like that, exactly. Yeah, and now I never 23 00:01:18,240 --> 00:01:20,240 Speaker 1: I don't think I ever did this with the intent 24 00:01:20,560 --> 00:01:23,920 Speaker 1: of getting some sort of meaning or guidance from the book. 25 00:01:23,959 --> 00:01:26,280 Speaker 1: But I certainly did it out of out of boredom 26 00:01:26,280 --> 00:01:31,320 Speaker 1: at times, because growing up in church, you're not everything 27 00:01:31,360 --> 00:01:33,240 Speaker 1: going on up there is going to be really interesting 28 00:01:33,240 --> 00:01:35,080 Speaker 1: to a young person. So you you only have so 29 00:01:35,120 --> 00:01:37,240 Speaker 1: many things you can turn to. You can poke around 30 00:01:37,280 --> 00:01:39,400 Speaker 1: in the hymnal, you can poke around in the Bible, 31 00:01:39,720 --> 00:01:42,000 Speaker 1: or you can doodle a little bit on the program, 32 00:01:42,000 --> 00:01:43,520 Speaker 1: but you can only get away with so much of that. 33 00:01:44,280 --> 00:01:45,920 Speaker 1: So you turn to the Bible, and there's there's a 34 00:01:45,920 --> 00:01:48,240 Speaker 1: lot of of interesting stuff in there, a lot of 35 00:01:48,440 --> 00:01:51,720 Speaker 1: boring stuff in there, just depending on where your fingertip 36 00:01:51,960 --> 00:01:54,760 Speaker 1: happens to land. Well, yeah, just after that verse I mentioned. 37 00:01:54,880 --> 00:01:57,240 Speaker 1: I mentioned verse from Second Kings because it seems like 38 00:01:57,360 --> 00:01:59,520 Speaker 1: very often when you split the Bible in half, you 39 00:01:59,560 --> 00:02:02,440 Speaker 1: go some where like in the later Middle Old Testament, 40 00:02:02,560 --> 00:02:05,040 Speaker 1: with a lot of that those kinds of verses that 41 00:02:05,080 --> 00:02:07,600 Speaker 1: are not super helpful. But right after that you'd get 42 00:02:07,720 --> 00:02:09,800 Speaker 1: and he wrought evil in the side of the Lord, 43 00:02:09,919 --> 00:02:11,959 Speaker 1: but not like his father and like his mother, for 44 00:02:12,080 --> 00:02:14,600 Speaker 1: he put away the image of Baal that his father 45 00:02:14,680 --> 00:02:17,400 Speaker 1: had made. Somehow that seems a little more relevant to 46 00:02:17,440 --> 00:02:20,000 Speaker 1: saying butt head on the playground, maybe like the but 47 00:02:20,200 --> 00:02:23,440 Speaker 1: the ble is the butt head you've done something worthy 48 00:02:23,440 --> 00:02:27,839 Speaker 1: of guilt. Yeah, you simply miscast your initial divination there, 49 00:02:27,919 --> 00:02:30,079 Speaker 1: you know, like you just needed to be a one 50 00:02:30,080 --> 00:02:32,720 Speaker 1: degreeed to laughter the right. Well, it highlights the fact 51 00:02:32,800 --> 00:02:38,280 Speaker 1: that some divination actually does feel more relevant than other divination, 52 00:02:38,680 --> 00:02:42,560 Speaker 1: even though we would probably say that no divination actually 53 00:02:42,639 --> 00:02:47,400 Speaker 1: has access to future or special knowledge, right, Yeah, Like 54 00:02:48,000 --> 00:02:50,600 Speaker 1: when one example that comes to mind that lines up 55 00:02:50,600 --> 00:02:52,520 Speaker 1: with this is is something I used to do as 56 00:02:52,560 --> 00:02:56,080 Speaker 1: an adult, is that we just randomly pull up a 57 00:02:56,240 --> 00:02:59,639 Speaker 1: date on the writer's Almanac and see what the poem 58 00:02:59,720 --> 00:03:03,120 Speaker 1: for that day happened to be. Uh. This is was 59 00:03:03,320 --> 00:03:07,040 Speaker 1: a radio program about literary history, and each day that 60 00:03:07,080 --> 00:03:09,720 Speaker 1: they aired it, it would have a certain poem by 61 00:03:09,720 --> 00:03:12,480 Speaker 1: by you know, a poet living or dad. You know, 62 00:03:12,680 --> 00:03:15,960 Speaker 1: it varied, and since each poem is generally going to 63 00:03:16,000 --> 00:03:19,960 Speaker 1: speak to the human condition in in some way, shape 64 00:03:20,040 --> 00:03:23,040 Speaker 1: or form, there's almost always going to be something you 65 00:03:23,080 --> 00:03:25,519 Speaker 1: can gain from. It's something you can compare to your 66 00:03:25,560 --> 00:03:28,840 Speaker 1: own experience, and at times that might feel rather poignant 67 00:03:28,880 --> 00:03:33,040 Speaker 1: and perfect and just cosmically aligned. And because we have 68 00:03:33,160 --> 00:03:37,360 Speaker 1: such powers of interpretation, we can very easily do that. 69 00:03:37,400 --> 00:03:38,920 Speaker 1: I mean, I feel like if I had been trying 70 00:03:38,960 --> 00:03:41,840 Speaker 1: really hard, I wouldn't need like a good verse like 71 00:03:41,880 --> 00:03:45,760 Speaker 1: the one about baal and reeking wickedness, And I wouldn't 72 00:03:45,760 --> 00:03:48,040 Speaker 1: even need a good poem. I could probably make some 73 00:03:48,160 --> 00:03:50,920 Speaker 1: kind of sense out of that weird lineage passage, right, 74 00:03:51,680 --> 00:03:53,960 Speaker 1: And you could make sense out of pretty much any 75 00:03:54,000 --> 00:03:56,680 Speaker 1: poem they throw at you, right, yeah, Yeah, if you 76 00:03:56,840 --> 00:03:59,360 Speaker 1: if you try hard enough, if you sort of twist 77 00:03:59,440 --> 00:04:02,120 Speaker 1: the meaning enough, you can you can find something in 78 00:04:02,120 --> 00:04:04,840 Speaker 1: just about any poem to apply to you. And certainly 79 00:04:04,880 --> 00:04:09,360 Speaker 1: you see plenty of examples of pastors and other clergical 80 00:04:09,360 --> 00:04:13,160 Speaker 1: individuals out there who who are following, say a liturgical calendar, 81 00:04:13,200 --> 00:04:15,600 Speaker 1: and they have a certain passage that they're given for 82 00:04:15,640 --> 00:04:19,640 Speaker 1: a given Sunday that they have to transform into a message. 83 00:04:19,920 --> 00:04:22,800 Speaker 1: And UH, as a skilled preacher, will be able to 84 00:04:22,800 --> 00:04:26,520 Speaker 1: do that. But in a divinatory context, I wonder, why 85 00:04:26,560 --> 00:04:28,560 Speaker 1: are we so good at this? And why do we 86 00:04:28,640 --> 00:04:32,080 Speaker 1: keep doing it. Why are we so intolerant of uncertainty 87 00:04:32,120 --> 00:04:35,279 Speaker 1: that throughout history we always keep coming back to these 88 00:04:35,480 --> 00:04:40,200 Speaker 1: methods of seeking secret information from outside ourselves. Yeah, it's 89 00:04:40,200 --> 00:04:42,760 Speaker 1: the thing that we fear the most in life, and 90 00:04:42,839 --> 00:04:45,960 Speaker 1: yet we summon it in trying to figure out how 91 00:04:45,960 --> 00:04:49,440 Speaker 1: we're going to tackle uncertainty. Yeah, and also like, why 92 00:04:49,440 --> 00:04:51,800 Speaker 1: do we keep doing it on the assumption, like you 93 00:04:51,839 --> 00:04:53,720 Speaker 1: and I, I know are not going to be advocating 94 00:04:53,760 --> 00:04:57,159 Speaker 1: the magic powers of any divination method in this episode, 95 00:04:57,520 --> 00:05:00,960 Speaker 1: So on the assumption that the information provide through divination 96 00:05:01,440 --> 00:05:04,520 Speaker 1: is no better than chance at being correct, why do 97 00:05:04,600 --> 00:05:08,120 Speaker 1: we keep doing it? Is there something actually adaptive or 98 00:05:08,200 --> 00:05:12,000 Speaker 1: powerful or useful about this process even though it doesn't 99 00:05:12,000 --> 00:05:15,640 Speaker 1: actually have magic access to the future. Well, it simply 100 00:05:15,720 --> 00:05:18,720 Speaker 1: makes choices easier at times. I think we've all been 101 00:05:18,760 --> 00:05:22,400 Speaker 1: in a situation where, uh, maybe it's not as simple 102 00:05:22,440 --> 00:05:25,279 Speaker 1: as like who who's gonna serve first in a game 103 00:05:25,279 --> 00:05:29,960 Speaker 1: of tennis? But it becomes too much of an effort 104 00:05:30,000 --> 00:05:32,720 Speaker 1: to say, decide who's going to pick up the tab 105 00:05:32,760 --> 00:05:35,280 Speaker 1: at a bar? Right, it becomes too much of an argument. 106 00:05:35,360 --> 00:05:39,200 Speaker 1: There are too many social considerations to take into place. Uh, 107 00:05:39,279 --> 00:05:42,440 Speaker 1: it's much easier just to make it random, just a 108 00:05:42,480 --> 00:05:46,320 Speaker 1: complete random act. Flip a coin, paper rocks, is, there's whatever, 109 00:05:46,760 --> 00:05:49,960 Speaker 1: and just come up with with the with with an answer, 110 00:05:50,000 --> 00:05:51,599 Speaker 1: and then you don't have to think about it anymore. 111 00:05:51,640 --> 00:05:54,200 Speaker 1: You got it. The cognitive load has just been dumped. 112 00:05:54,520 --> 00:05:58,279 Speaker 1: I think that is a great answer, like the laziness perspective, 113 00:05:58,320 --> 00:06:00,880 Speaker 1: and we know mother nature is quite lazy, and anything 114 00:06:00,920 --> 00:06:04,279 Speaker 1: we can do to reduce cognitive loads and take the 115 00:06:04,320 --> 00:06:07,159 Speaker 1: effort out of the process, that can be helpful. Yeah, 116 00:06:07,279 --> 00:06:09,039 Speaker 1: it's at the end of the day, you have decision 117 00:06:09,080 --> 00:06:11,240 Speaker 1: fatigue from all the other decisions you've made, and you 118 00:06:11,400 --> 00:06:14,680 Speaker 1: just can't decide if it's going to be, you know, 119 00:06:14,800 --> 00:06:18,800 Speaker 1: macaroni or crab cakes for dinner. Let randomness, Let let 120 00:06:18,800 --> 00:06:20,919 Speaker 1: a coin, a flip of a coin decided for me. 121 00:06:21,160 --> 00:06:23,920 Speaker 1: And yet there are some contradictions in there, aren't there? 122 00:06:23,960 --> 00:06:27,119 Speaker 1: Because that seems to make sense for trivial decisions where 123 00:06:27,360 --> 00:06:29,640 Speaker 1: you don't want to be bothered by stuff. But people 124 00:06:29,839 --> 00:06:33,839 Speaker 1: use divination methods and you know, casting of lots and 125 00:06:33,880 --> 00:06:36,480 Speaker 1: all all that kind of stuff and opening the Bible 126 00:06:36,520 --> 00:06:39,880 Speaker 1: to a random verse to make the most important decisions 127 00:06:39,920 --> 00:06:44,159 Speaker 1: in their lives. That that's almost when you've most find 128 00:06:44,200 --> 00:06:47,480 Speaker 1: yourself seeking this, when you're really desperate, when you really 129 00:06:47,520 --> 00:06:49,600 Speaker 1: need to know something, when you really don't know what 130 00:06:49,680 --> 00:06:52,880 Speaker 1: to do about something important, then people seek the wisdom 131 00:06:52,920 --> 00:06:56,320 Speaker 1: of the gods. That's an interesting contradiction, and I want 132 00:06:56,360 --> 00:06:58,720 Speaker 1: to come back to that later. A second thing that 133 00:06:58,839 --> 00:07:01,200 Speaker 1: I think is interesting give in the idea that we're 134 00:07:01,200 --> 00:07:03,480 Speaker 1: not going to be advocating that any books have magic 135 00:07:03,520 --> 00:07:05,920 Speaker 1: powers or have the power to predict to the future, 136 00:07:06,040 --> 00:07:11,280 Speaker 1: is that, nevertheless, some divination methods seem better, more powerful, 137 00:07:11,440 --> 00:07:14,480 Speaker 1: and more profound than others, even though none of them 138 00:07:14,520 --> 00:07:18,640 Speaker 1: are actually magic. For example, your average newspaper horoscope is 139 00:07:18,800 --> 00:07:21,400 Speaker 1: it's kind of hilarious to most of us, right, if 140 00:07:21,640 --> 00:07:24,239 Speaker 1: you've done some research on the forer effect in making 141 00:07:24,320 --> 00:07:27,480 Speaker 1: vague statements that seem like they apply specifically to you, 142 00:07:27,800 --> 00:07:30,760 Speaker 1: but in fact they applied almost everybody. You can see 143 00:07:30,800 --> 00:07:35,040 Speaker 1: these just the newspaper horoscopes just riddled with them, right. 144 00:07:35,200 --> 00:07:37,520 Speaker 1: Or another example would be and there's an even worse 145 00:07:37,600 --> 00:07:41,040 Speaker 1: example because there's even less methodology behind it, but the 146 00:07:41,080 --> 00:07:44,760 Speaker 1: fortune cookie, which would which we've many of us have 147 00:07:44,840 --> 00:07:48,200 Speaker 1: grown up obtaining at Chinese restaurants, is of course, not 148 00:07:48,280 --> 00:07:53,760 Speaker 1: even a legitimate Chinese cultural artifact. Sometimes it delightful. Nevertheless, 149 00:07:53,800 --> 00:07:55,240 Speaker 1: it can't be the life. Well, it can be fun. 150 00:07:55,320 --> 00:07:58,400 Speaker 1: I mean, everybody loves a fortune cookie. It's it's it's 151 00:07:58,400 --> 00:08:00,680 Speaker 1: a cookie and it has this shot of paper in 152 00:08:00,720 --> 00:08:02,880 Speaker 1: it that you can talk about with your friends or 153 00:08:02,880 --> 00:08:07,880 Speaker 1: make a joke about. But it's pretty lightweight and inauthentic 154 00:08:07,960 --> 00:08:11,840 Speaker 1: when it comes to considering Chinese divination. Well, to get 155 00:08:11,880 --> 00:08:14,960 Speaker 1: into Chinese divination, I want to say that while we're 156 00:08:15,040 --> 00:08:18,280 Speaker 1: highlighting divination methods that even while we fully acknowledge they're 157 00:08:18,280 --> 00:08:21,000 Speaker 1: not magic and they are really just start effects of 158 00:08:21,000 --> 00:08:24,760 Speaker 1: culture that play on our psychological vulnerabilities, some feel like 159 00:08:24,800 --> 00:08:26,960 Speaker 1: they get at something deeper. And I think, for me, 160 00:08:27,080 --> 00:08:31,000 Speaker 1: the prime example of this would be the Chinese classic 161 00:08:31,080 --> 00:08:34,640 Speaker 1: the Eaching, the Guided Divination Book, also known as the 162 00:08:34,640 --> 00:08:37,240 Speaker 1: Book of Changes, and that's what we're gonna be talking 163 00:08:37,240 --> 00:08:39,280 Speaker 1: about today now. I do want to drive home that 164 00:08:39,320 --> 00:08:42,520 Speaker 1: if you ever looked up the Eaching and started to 165 00:08:42,559 --> 00:08:44,560 Speaker 1: read about it, and then you get intimidated by this 166 00:08:44,640 --> 00:08:48,720 Speaker 1: big block of symbols, well trust us, because we're gonna 167 00:08:48,760 --> 00:08:51,319 Speaker 1: we're gonna guide you through the Eaching here and We're 168 00:08:51,360 --> 00:08:53,600 Speaker 1: not gonna get too far into the weeds on the 169 00:08:53,640 --> 00:08:57,720 Speaker 1: particulars of Chinese divination and sorcery, right, we wanted to 170 00:08:57,720 --> 00:09:00,120 Speaker 1: look more at like the idea of the eaching, how 171 00:09:00,160 --> 00:09:02,560 Speaker 1: it works in its most basic sense, how it fits 172 00:09:02,640 --> 00:09:06,440 Speaker 1: into the psychology of the human practice of divination, and 173 00:09:06,720 --> 00:09:10,160 Speaker 1: why so many thinkers, from ancient Chinese philosophers to Carl 174 00:09:10,240 --> 00:09:14,080 Speaker 1: Young have believed it to contain such profundity despite the 175 00:09:14,120 --> 00:09:17,280 Speaker 1: fact that it doesn't actually predict the future. It doesn't. 176 00:09:17,360 --> 00:09:19,760 Speaker 1: It's not magic. It doesn't predict the future. But it 177 00:09:19,840 --> 00:09:24,040 Speaker 1: does do something interesting. And what does it do well? 178 00:09:24,080 --> 00:09:26,840 Speaker 1: As the name implies that it speaks to change in 179 00:09:26,880 --> 00:09:30,440 Speaker 1: our lives and in the universe, as the as the 180 00:09:30,480 --> 00:09:33,920 Speaker 1: title the Book of Changes implies. Uh, there's a There's 181 00:09:33,920 --> 00:09:36,240 Speaker 1: a wonderful quote I want to read from Alan Watts, 182 00:09:36,440 --> 00:09:39,880 Speaker 1: who who spoke and wrote at length about the eaching. 183 00:09:39,960 --> 00:09:43,360 Speaker 1: He said, it's almost a mapping of the thinking processes 184 00:09:43,400 --> 00:09:45,680 Speaker 1: of man. Yeah, he has a lot of interesting thoughts 185 00:09:45,679 --> 00:09:48,480 Speaker 1: about it, especially in the context of thinking about the 186 00:09:48,640 --> 00:09:53,040 Speaker 1: Yin and yang imagery in Chinese culture. But Watts also 187 00:09:53,160 --> 00:09:58,520 Speaker 1: compares the functioning of the each ing to the logic 188 00:09:58,600 --> 00:10:02,680 Speaker 1: gates to the you know, buy aary logic in technology, Yeah, totally. 189 00:10:02,679 --> 00:10:05,640 Speaker 1: I mean, in essence, the Book of Changes is just 190 00:10:05,720 --> 00:10:08,559 Speaker 1: an ancient book of Chinese divination. Right. You seek the 191 00:10:08,600 --> 00:10:11,720 Speaker 1: answer to a question, and you have a process and 192 00:10:11,760 --> 00:10:14,800 Speaker 1: the book will help give you some kind of answer. Right. 193 00:10:14,880 --> 00:10:16,560 Speaker 1: But it's also much of the more than that, and 194 00:10:16,640 --> 00:10:18,760 Speaker 1: it I think it lacks a true parallel in the 195 00:10:18,800 --> 00:10:21,600 Speaker 1: West in terms of its influence. So one could perhaps 196 00:10:21,679 --> 00:10:24,240 Speaker 1: make a case for the Bible. But the Bible is 197 00:10:24,280 --> 00:10:27,839 Speaker 1: not explicitly intended as a book of divination, right, But 198 00:10:27,880 --> 00:10:31,000 Speaker 1: I'm speaking beyond like near divination, just in terms of 199 00:10:31,000 --> 00:10:34,920 Speaker 1: how important the work is. It's like a root text 200 00:10:35,280 --> 00:10:38,840 Speaker 1: for a civilization. It's it's hard. I mean, you could 201 00:10:38,840 --> 00:10:41,400 Speaker 1: make a case for the Bible, but but but I 202 00:10:41,440 --> 00:10:43,280 Speaker 1: feel like that's not really a direct one to one 203 00:10:43,520 --> 00:10:47,200 Speaker 1: between the I Ching and whatever version of the Bible 204 00:10:47,720 --> 00:10:51,760 Speaker 1: one is presenting. So this is a classical text that 205 00:10:51,880 --> 00:10:55,960 Speaker 1: was recorded in the ninth century BC, and it contains 206 00:10:56,160 --> 00:11:00,160 Speaker 1: the verses that incorporate divination terms and images. It was 207 00:11:00,240 --> 00:11:05,240 Speaker 1: used by diviners to read sticks or stalks of yarrow 208 00:11:05,280 --> 00:11:08,240 Speaker 1: plant that were cast six at a time so that 209 00:11:08,320 --> 00:11:10,880 Speaker 1: they fell in the shape of a hexagram, and the 210 00:11:11,160 --> 00:11:15,400 Speaker 1: practice would have involved lore, art, and mathematics in interpreting it. 211 00:11:16,200 --> 00:11:20,120 Speaker 1: So it's considered one of the great five Chinese classical texts, 212 00:11:20,120 --> 00:11:22,120 Speaker 1: and and it serves as a root text for both 213 00:11:22,360 --> 00:11:26,480 Speaker 1: Taoism and Confucianism, and beyond that, it also influenced Chinese 214 00:11:26,480 --> 00:11:29,480 Speaker 1: science and states craft. Uh. In other words, it's a 215 00:11:29,520 --> 00:11:32,760 Speaker 1: fundamental work of Chinese culture. And in fact, it alone 216 00:11:32,800 --> 00:11:36,440 Speaker 1: among all the Confucian classics, escaped the book burnings of 217 00:11:36,559 --> 00:11:39,719 Speaker 1: Chin Chi Wong, who we recently discussed at link in 218 00:11:39,760 --> 00:11:42,240 Speaker 1: an episode. Do you know why it survived? Is there 219 00:11:42,280 --> 00:11:46,720 Speaker 1: a reasoning behind that or that just an accident? My 220 00:11:46,800 --> 00:11:49,040 Speaker 1: understanding is that there may be more to it, But 221 00:11:49,160 --> 00:11:51,400 Speaker 1: it was it was just such a fundamental text. It 222 00:11:51,440 --> 00:11:53,400 Speaker 1: was just again it was it is a root text. 223 00:11:53,440 --> 00:11:55,720 Speaker 1: You could not just rip it out of the culture, 224 00:11:55,880 --> 00:11:59,160 Speaker 1: no matter how many other things you were ripping apart. So, like, 225 00:11:59,240 --> 00:12:01,520 Speaker 1: even if you're a person who's devoted to a racing 226 00:12:01,679 --> 00:12:05,240 Speaker 1: history and establishing a new world, you there are some 227 00:12:05,320 --> 00:12:08,480 Speaker 1: books that maybe seem so pivotal and so important to 228 00:12:08,520 --> 00:12:11,040 Speaker 1: you as a tool that you can't get rid of them. Right, Yeah, 229 00:12:11,040 --> 00:12:12,640 Speaker 1: it's it's like you can rip down the house, but 230 00:12:12,720 --> 00:12:18,960 Speaker 1: this is the foundation. So German sinologist Richard Wilhelm, who 231 00:12:19,000 --> 00:12:22,880 Speaker 1: lived through ninety he was a key individual in the 232 00:12:23,040 --> 00:12:27,559 Speaker 1: history of Western scholarship on the Eaching, as was his 233 00:12:27,600 --> 00:12:31,680 Speaker 1: son as well. Uh. He wrote that there were pros 234 00:12:31,720 --> 00:12:35,240 Speaker 1: and cons to the book's importance. On one hand, quote 235 00:12:35,240 --> 00:12:38,559 Speaker 1: it forced Chinese philosophical thinking more and more into a 236 00:12:38,679 --> 00:12:42,440 Speaker 1: rigid formalization. Yet he also points out they quote apart 237 00:12:42,559 --> 00:12:46,520 Speaker 1: from this mechanistic number of mysticism, a living stream of 238 00:12:46,679 --> 00:12:51,560 Speaker 1: deep human wisdom was constantly flowing through the channel of 239 00:12:51,600 --> 00:12:55,280 Speaker 1: this book into everyday life, giving to China's great civilization. 240 00:12:55,600 --> 00:12:59,280 Speaker 1: The rightness of wisdom distilled through the ages. Well being 241 00:12:59,320 --> 00:13:02,640 Speaker 1: a book and not just being say, you know, a 242 00:13:02,720 --> 00:13:05,600 Speaker 1: method of casting animal bones or something like that, but 243 00:13:05,720 --> 00:13:09,040 Speaker 1: having written content, we we do have to acknowledge that 244 00:13:09,559 --> 00:13:14,199 Speaker 1: it does contain inherent directional nous, right because it has 245 00:13:14,240 --> 00:13:17,400 Speaker 1: written words. There are things that this book says and 246 00:13:17,480 --> 00:13:21,000 Speaker 1: things that this book does not say. And that's different 247 00:13:21,120 --> 00:13:24,240 Speaker 1: from a totally like a totally free form type of 248 00:13:24,240 --> 00:13:27,959 Speaker 1: divination that could say anything at any time, right right, 249 00:13:28,000 --> 00:13:30,880 Speaker 1: the sort of magic eight ball kind of scenario right, Well, no, 250 00:13:31,000 --> 00:13:32,640 Speaker 1: I mean in a ball has a has a number 251 00:13:32,679 --> 00:13:35,480 Speaker 1: of messages to like the eight ball has written content. 252 00:13:35,960 --> 00:13:40,200 Speaker 1: I guess it's less it's less literary, but no, I 253 00:13:40,200 --> 00:13:43,520 Speaker 1: mean I'm thinking like as opposed to just sitting somewhere 254 00:13:43,520 --> 00:13:45,320 Speaker 1: and saying, like, all right, what is what are the 255 00:13:45,320 --> 00:13:48,320 Speaker 1: gods telling me? That could go in any direction? When 256 00:13:48,360 --> 00:13:50,640 Speaker 1: you've got a book to guide you. The book says 257 00:13:50,800 --> 00:13:53,760 Speaker 1: some things in it and it doesn't say other things 258 00:13:54,200 --> 00:13:56,800 Speaker 1: constrains you, right, So it would be different than say, 259 00:13:56,840 --> 00:14:00,800 Speaker 1: setting in Central Park in New York City and say alright, God, 260 00:14:01,200 --> 00:14:03,760 Speaker 1: give me a sign, and then you look around until 261 00:14:03,800 --> 00:14:06,960 Speaker 1: you notice something that seems like it might be a 262 00:14:07,000 --> 00:14:09,640 Speaker 1: message from the divine And it could be anything. It 263 00:14:09,640 --> 00:14:12,679 Speaker 1: could be a peculiar looking dog, a child looks at 264 00:14:12,679 --> 00:14:15,760 Speaker 1: you with a with a with a weird eye, or 265 00:14:15,800 --> 00:14:18,079 Speaker 1: there's a you know, a large child eating corn on 266 00:14:18,120 --> 00:14:20,320 Speaker 1: the cob. But you know that the portant could be anything. 267 00:14:21,000 --> 00:14:22,680 Speaker 1: But I like where your brain went with that. But 268 00:14:22,880 --> 00:14:27,320 Speaker 1: that was seeing the Robert Lamb reference for our Hodgman fans, 269 00:14:27,960 --> 00:14:30,040 Speaker 1: that was one of the portant City lays out one 270 00:14:30,080 --> 00:14:31,920 Speaker 1: the weird eye or the corn on the corn of 271 00:14:31,920 --> 00:14:34,240 Speaker 1: the cop Okay, yeah, I believe that was one of 272 00:14:34,240 --> 00:14:37,800 Speaker 1: the signs of Ragnarok approaching. Now, is there a hexagram 273 00:14:37,840 --> 00:14:41,320 Speaker 1: in the each ing of the child with the weird eye? Oh? 274 00:14:41,480 --> 00:14:43,840 Speaker 1: I don't know. There might be child with weird eye turning. 275 00:14:44,920 --> 00:14:46,840 Speaker 1: All right, well we should actually explain a little bit 276 00:14:46,840 --> 00:14:49,200 Speaker 1: more of the specifics of how the book works. So 277 00:14:49,200 --> 00:14:52,480 Speaker 1: if you are an ancient Chinese philosopher and you want 278 00:14:52,520 --> 00:14:55,880 Speaker 1: to know something about the future, you want the answer 279 00:14:55,880 --> 00:14:58,440 Speaker 1: to a question in your life, how would you use 280 00:14:58,520 --> 00:15:01,440 Speaker 1: the book? All right? So at this point we really 281 00:15:01,480 --> 00:15:05,840 Speaker 1: just need sort of break down the process of the eaching, 282 00:15:05,960 --> 00:15:09,320 Speaker 1: how it works. So, what's the most basic question you 283 00:15:09,320 --> 00:15:11,640 Speaker 1: could ask of a god or the universe or what 284 00:15:11,760 --> 00:15:14,960 Speaker 1: have you, or say a coin you could ask the 285 00:15:15,000 --> 00:15:19,280 Speaker 1: same question. You could ask it a yes or no question. Yeah, 286 00:15:19,680 --> 00:15:23,320 Speaker 1: basic binary situation here, uh, and we can you can 287 00:15:23,320 --> 00:15:25,800 Speaker 1: ask this a virtually anything. You could stare at the 288 00:15:25,800 --> 00:15:28,960 Speaker 1: park and say, all right, give me a sign God 289 00:15:29,200 --> 00:15:31,800 Speaker 1: you have answer to my question is a yes, and 290 00:15:31,840 --> 00:15:33,760 Speaker 1: then you wait till you see the child with the corn. 291 00:15:34,040 --> 00:15:37,680 Speaker 1: In a way, it's the most efficient sort of information 292 00:15:37,840 --> 00:15:40,600 Speaker 1: dense way of consulting anything, just to ask it yes. 293 00:15:40,680 --> 00:15:42,760 Speaker 1: Or no question right yeah, And at the at the 294 00:15:42,800 --> 00:15:45,000 Speaker 1: heart the Book of Changes comes down to this yes 295 00:15:45,040 --> 00:15:49,200 Speaker 1: no binary. So the cast sticks form lines, and a 296 00:15:49,280 --> 00:15:53,280 Speaker 1: single unbroken line is a yes, while a broken line 297 00:15:53,640 --> 00:15:57,000 Speaker 1: is a no. But pretty early on the ancient diviners 298 00:15:57,000 --> 00:16:01,400 Speaker 1: added additional details to these divined answers a second line, 299 00:16:01,760 --> 00:16:07,280 Speaker 1: so now you could have such answers as essentially yes, yes, no, no, yes, no, no, yes, 300 00:16:08,400 --> 00:16:12,200 Speaker 1: and then a third line produces the eight trigrams. That's 301 00:16:12,240 --> 00:16:14,920 Speaker 1: the that's that's the symbol. When you look at those 302 00:16:15,000 --> 00:16:18,440 Speaker 1: charts of all these weird lines and you're intimidated by 303 00:16:18,440 --> 00:16:20,520 Speaker 1: the by the eaching, that's what you're looking at, the 304 00:16:20,560 --> 00:16:24,440 Speaker 1: trigrams and as as. And also if you've if you've 305 00:16:24,440 --> 00:16:28,400 Speaker 1: ever seen an image of the young symbol and it's 306 00:16:28,440 --> 00:16:32,840 Speaker 1: surrounded by these different line based symbols than those are 307 00:16:32,960 --> 00:16:37,000 Speaker 1: the trigrams. You typically you'll see that on just the 308 00:16:37,000 --> 00:16:40,960 Speaker 1: the the logo for S Martial Arts Studio in any 309 00:16:41,040 --> 00:16:44,720 Speaker 1: given small town in America. M But but that also 310 00:16:44,800 --> 00:16:47,520 Speaker 1: underlines just how widespread these are in Chinese culture and 311 00:16:47,560 --> 00:16:50,960 Speaker 1: things that are inspired by Chinese culture. Would you say 312 00:16:50,960 --> 00:16:53,800 Speaker 1: it's so widespread that it makes it even into lots 313 00:16:53,800 --> 00:16:56,000 Speaker 1: of imagery where the people employing it don't even know 314 00:16:56,080 --> 00:17:00,440 Speaker 1: what it's from. Oh, without doubt. So, as will Ham 315 00:17:00,440 --> 00:17:04,119 Speaker 1: points out, quote, these eight triagrams were conceived as images 316 00:17:04,160 --> 00:17:06,919 Speaker 1: of all that happens in Heaven and Earth. At the 317 00:17:06,960 --> 00:17:08,879 Speaker 1: same time, they were held to be in a state 318 00:17:08,880 --> 00:17:13,400 Speaker 1: of continual transition, one changing into another, just as transition 319 00:17:13,480 --> 00:17:17,000 Speaker 1: from one phenomenon to another is continually taking place in 320 00:17:17,040 --> 00:17:19,520 Speaker 1: the physical world. And that's the central idea of the 321 00:17:19,520 --> 00:17:24,680 Speaker 1: Book of Change, a universe defined by changing transitional states. Yeah, 322 00:17:24,720 --> 00:17:27,440 Speaker 1: I would say that it seems that the primary ideas 323 00:17:27,520 --> 00:17:31,320 Speaker 1: within the Book of Changes are duality and binaries, and 324 00:17:31,359 --> 00:17:35,080 Speaker 1: then constant flux between them. Right right there, there are 325 00:17:35,080 --> 00:17:38,360 Speaker 1: two ways things can be, and you're always going back 326 00:17:38,440 --> 00:17:42,040 Speaker 1: and forth between those two ways, right, Does that make sense? Yeah, 327 00:17:42,080 --> 00:17:45,280 Speaker 1: totally so. So again, we have these eight triagrams at 328 00:17:45,280 --> 00:17:48,040 Speaker 1: this point, and then each one takes on additional meanings. 329 00:17:48,480 --> 00:17:50,800 Speaker 1: Uh so, one is the father, the other than mother, 330 00:17:50,880 --> 00:17:53,320 Speaker 1: then first son, second son, third son, and then the 331 00:17:53,400 --> 00:17:56,359 Speaker 1: three daughters. One is Heaven, one is Earth. When his 332 00:17:56,440 --> 00:18:01,439 Speaker 1: thunderwater mountain, wind would fire lake, other attributes such as 333 00:18:01,520 --> 00:18:07,480 Speaker 1: strength or resting or penetration or or joyfulness. And then 334 00:18:07,560 --> 00:18:10,359 Speaker 1: these you take these these tigrooms and then you use 335 00:18:10,400 --> 00:18:12,679 Speaker 1: them in combination with each other, producing a total of 336 00:18:12,760 --> 00:18:17,280 Speaker 1: sixty four signs six lines each. Change one line in 337 00:18:17,359 --> 00:18:20,720 Speaker 1: one of these, and you change the situation they represent, uh, 338 00:18:20,720 --> 00:18:23,040 Speaker 1: you know, such as the earth or thunder. So we're 339 00:18:23,119 --> 00:18:27,720 Speaker 1: left with a series of situations expressed as line based symbols, 340 00:18:27,800 --> 00:18:31,800 Speaker 1: and the movement of these lines change the situation. And 341 00:18:31,840 --> 00:18:34,960 Speaker 1: in response to each situation, there's a right and a 342 00:18:35,040 --> 00:18:36,960 Speaker 1: wrong course of action. And this is where the Book 343 00:18:36,960 --> 00:18:39,840 Speaker 1: of Changes transforms from a mere book of divination to 344 00:18:40,080 --> 00:18:43,159 Speaker 1: a book of wisdom. What should I do about the 345 00:18:43,200 --> 00:18:46,479 Speaker 1: situation just revealed to me? Now that's interesting, So the 346 00:18:46,520 --> 00:18:48,959 Speaker 1: book this is another way in which the content of 347 00:18:49,000 --> 00:18:52,800 Speaker 1: the book actually matters. It's not just a process for 348 00:18:53,240 --> 00:18:56,520 Speaker 1: giving you random answers to yes or no questions. It 349 00:18:56,640 --> 00:19:01,680 Speaker 1: also tells you something about the situation and wreck men's behavior. Yeah, 350 00:19:01,680 --> 00:19:04,520 Speaker 1: it's pretty big. It's it's it's not merely revealed fate. 351 00:19:04,640 --> 00:19:08,159 Speaker 1: You have a role to play, and the germinal phase 352 00:19:08,160 --> 00:19:10,480 Speaker 1: and all of this is key. This is when things 353 00:19:10,480 --> 00:19:14,280 Speaker 1: are most susceptible to change, which matches up with our 354 00:19:14,280 --> 00:19:16,600 Speaker 1: experience of reality, you know, and out of this we 355 00:19:16,680 --> 00:19:19,280 Speaker 1: get the idea of the dow the course of things, 356 00:19:19,600 --> 00:19:23,119 Speaker 1: the great stirring represented in the yenyang symbol UH, and 357 00:19:23,160 --> 00:19:28,879 Speaker 1: it was used by sorcerers, diviners, Confucius, Daoist statesman, scientists, 358 00:19:28,880 --> 00:19:31,960 Speaker 1: and more, with writings popping up and vanishing over the 359 00:19:32,000 --> 00:19:36,560 Speaker 1: ages devoted to the various interpretations and new writings, some 360 00:19:36,640 --> 00:19:38,800 Speaker 1: of which we will discuss here, continue to pop up. 361 00:19:38,840 --> 00:19:42,880 Speaker 1: Is new individuals and new cultures discover the Book of Changes. 362 00:19:43,200 --> 00:19:44,600 Speaker 1: All right, on that note, we're going to take a 363 00:19:44,680 --> 00:19:46,879 Speaker 1: quick break, and when we come back we will bust 364 00:19:46,920 --> 00:19:51,520 Speaker 1: out an example of the eaching consultation before discussing it 365 00:19:51,560 --> 00:19:56,639 Speaker 1: in greater depth than alright, we're back, alright, So today 366 00:19:56,640 --> 00:20:00,280 Speaker 1: we've been talking about the eaching, this ancient Chinese method 367 00:20:00,280 --> 00:20:03,639 Speaker 1: of divination, the Book of Changes and UH and some 368 00:20:03,760 --> 00:20:07,920 Speaker 1: interesting psychological characteristics of it, how it works. But we 369 00:20:07,920 --> 00:20:10,240 Speaker 1: we should show you what it feels like to consult 370 00:20:10,320 --> 00:20:13,520 Speaker 1: the eaching and get some results. So one example I 371 00:20:13,600 --> 00:20:16,000 Speaker 1: came up with last night. For a while, I've been 372 00:20:16,040 --> 00:20:18,119 Speaker 1: working on a writing project and I just asked the 373 00:20:18,160 --> 00:20:21,480 Speaker 1: eaching last night whether I would get any good writing done. 374 00:20:21,520 --> 00:20:24,000 Speaker 1: This coming weekend, because you never know is stuff going 375 00:20:24,040 --> 00:20:26,760 Speaker 1: to come up that's gonna draw you away, distract you, 376 00:20:26,880 --> 00:20:29,600 Speaker 1: or am I going to be productive? So I did 377 00:20:29,640 --> 00:20:32,320 Speaker 1: a virtual version that allows you to use virtual coin 378 00:20:32,359 --> 00:20:35,040 Speaker 1: flips to generate the hexagram number, so I didn't actually 379 00:20:35,080 --> 00:20:37,240 Speaker 1: have to flip coins or throw sticks. Yeah, there are 380 00:20:37,240 --> 00:20:39,159 Speaker 1: a number of different websites that allow you to do this, 381 00:20:39,240 --> 00:20:41,639 Speaker 1: and some even give you the choice where you can 382 00:20:41,720 --> 00:20:45,080 Speaker 1: you can physically flip your own coins and record it 383 00:20:45,400 --> 00:20:48,160 Speaker 1: on the website, which if you if you're like me 384 00:20:48,800 --> 00:20:52,120 Speaker 1: and you you play role playing games, you prefer actual 385 00:20:52,240 --> 00:20:55,360 Speaker 1: dice as opposed to just pure like it seems wrong 386 00:20:55,680 --> 00:20:58,959 Speaker 1: to trust the computer world completely. I want my my 387 00:20:59,119 --> 00:21:03,080 Speaker 1: physical uncertainty to take place on the table. Well, there's 388 00:21:03,080 --> 00:21:05,720 Speaker 1: definitely a way in which if you actually believe there's 389 00:21:05,760 --> 00:21:09,720 Speaker 1: something magic about the process, then you people very often 390 00:21:09,760 --> 00:21:14,120 Speaker 1: default to wanting physical tokens for for magical kind of significance. 391 00:21:14,720 --> 00:21:17,400 Speaker 1: It's harder to feel like something magic is happening inside 392 00:21:17,440 --> 00:21:21,960 Speaker 1: the computer just generating random numbers. But either way, let's 393 00:21:21,960 --> 00:21:24,040 Speaker 1: say I don't believe anything magic is going on. I 394 00:21:24,080 --> 00:21:28,680 Speaker 1: don't I use the computer and it generates hexagram eighteen 395 00:21:29,200 --> 00:21:33,639 Speaker 1: repairing decay. So that bodes well for my writing project. 396 00:21:33,760 --> 00:21:37,320 Speaker 1: But okay, so I see repairing decay. Interesting. No, the 397 00:21:37,400 --> 00:21:39,919 Speaker 1: Chinese word here is goo, which is a type of 398 00:21:40,080 --> 00:21:43,680 Speaker 1: venom based poison made from like combining I think scorpions 399 00:21:43,680 --> 00:21:47,639 Speaker 1: in different insects or worms. Yeah. Yeah. Anyone who listened 400 00:21:47,680 --> 00:21:49,960 Speaker 1: to the episode I did with Christian about poisons a 401 00:21:49,960 --> 00:21:54,000 Speaker 1: while back will recognize this term. We discussed it at length. 402 00:21:54,080 --> 00:22:00,000 Speaker 1: This idea that that this mix of magic and actual pharmacology. 403 00:22:00,760 --> 00:22:04,119 Speaker 1: Uh that and sometimes just like pure superstition attached to 404 00:22:04,240 --> 00:22:08,000 Speaker 1: various peoples that they have a magical power of poison 405 00:22:08,119 --> 00:22:10,600 Speaker 1: or google now, but it's also linked to this idea 406 00:22:10,640 --> 00:22:13,960 Speaker 1: of decay. And that's where repairing decay comes in. So 407 00:22:14,280 --> 00:22:17,000 Speaker 1: here's an example of the kind of thing that the 408 00:22:17,040 --> 00:22:19,040 Speaker 1: Book of Changes might say to you if you get 409 00:22:19,240 --> 00:22:21,439 Speaker 1: hexagram eighteen or this is what it will say to 410 00:22:21,440 --> 00:22:24,640 Speaker 1: you in this English translation, work on what has been 411 00:22:24,640 --> 00:22:29,840 Speaker 1: Spoiled has supreme success. It furthers one to cross the 412 00:22:29,880 --> 00:22:34,919 Speaker 1: great water before the starting point three days after the 413 00:22:34,960 --> 00:22:40,080 Speaker 1: starting point three days and then also the wind blows 414 00:22:40,160 --> 00:22:43,919 Speaker 1: low on the mountain the image of decay. Thus the 415 00:22:44,000 --> 00:22:48,080 Speaker 1: superior man stirs up the people and strengthens their spirit. 416 00:22:49,480 --> 00:22:52,920 Speaker 1: I like that there's a little something in there for everybody. 417 00:22:52,920 --> 00:22:55,119 Speaker 1: But I can see where could it definitely can apply 418 00:22:55,240 --> 00:22:57,639 Speaker 1: to a writing project, because the thing that it's I 419 00:22:57,640 --> 00:22:59,560 Speaker 1: instantly think of as well, it sounds like you've got 420 00:22:59,680 --> 00:23:03,439 Speaker 1: editing this this weekend. That sounds like you're you're going 421 00:23:03,480 --> 00:23:05,840 Speaker 1: to do some revisions on your existing work, and maybe 422 00:23:05,840 --> 00:23:08,560 Speaker 1: there's going to be less the striking out into bold 423 00:23:08,560 --> 00:23:12,040 Speaker 1: new territory. I think this example shows some of the 424 00:23:12,760 --> 00:23:15,240 Speaker 1: some of the qualities that I was talking about with 425 00:23:15,280 --> 00:23:17,399 Speaker 1: the eaching at the beginning, and that even though I 426 00:23:17,440 --> 00:23:21,680 Speaker 1: believe that there's nothing magic about it, it's somehow useful 427 00:23:21,920 --> 00:23:26,639 Speaker 1: it it's doing something that other divination practices don't really do. 428 00:23:27,400 --> 00:23:30,399 Speaker 1: And maybe part of that is just spurring lines of 429 00:23:30,480 --> 00:23:33,800 Speaker 1: thought going off in all different directions that allow one 430 00:23:33,840 --> 00:23:37,480 Speaker 1: to consider possibilities of action. All right, well, let's do 431 00:23:37,480 --> 00:23:39,640 Speaker 1: another one, just just totally off the top of my head. 432 00:23:39,720 --> 00:23:43,840 Speaker 1: Maybe a more important questions. Will the werewolves rise up 433 00:23:43,840 --> 00:23:48,399 Speaker 1: tonight to consume? Okay, let's consult. This is going to 434 00:23:48,480 --> 00:23:52,080 Speaker 1: be the electronic version of the eaching, and so I'm 435 00:23:52,080 --> 00:23:55,639 Speaker 1: going to virtually throw the coins, right, it's three coins 436 00:23:55,640 --> 00:23:58,439 Speaker 1: for each line. I believe it's true. Yeah, so you 437 00:23:58,440 --> 00:24:03,040 Speaker 1: have to throw three coins six times. Ah. And the 438 00:24:03,160 --> 00:24:07,840 Speaker 1: arrangement we've gotten sends us to hexagram fifty three chin 439 00:24:08,400 --> 00:24:13,840 Speaker 1: development or gradual progress development. The maiden is given in marriage, 440 00:24:14,320 --> 00:24:20,760 Speaker 1: good fortune, perseverance furthers on the mountain a tree the 441 00:24:20,840 --> 00:24:25,040 Speaker 1: image of development. Thus, the superior man abides in dignity 442 00:24:25,080 --> 00:24:29,240 Speaker 1: and virtue in order to improve the Moray's So, so 443 00:24:29,320 --> 00:24:32,400 Speaker 1: if we were playing a game of werewolf, this would 444 00:24:32,880 --> 00:24:34,720 Speaker 1: there's a lot we could we could we could we 445 00:24:34,720 --> 00:24:37,280 Speaker 1: could gather from this. It seems to imply a certain 446 00:24:39,359 --> 00:24:42,720 Speaker 1: patients and dignity and dealing with the villagers. Uh and uh, 447 00:24:42,960 --> 00:24:45,280 Speaker 1: and in the idea that we're maybe gonna pull this 448 00:24:45,400 --> 00:24:48,120 Speaker 1: off in the end if we don't overreact. I mean, 449 00:24:48,320 --> 00:24:51,920 Speaker 1: it's a little haunting because it all these images start 450 00:24:52,040 --> 00:24:54,280 Speaker 1: to suggest a narrative in the mind, which is that 451 00:24:54,760 --> 00:24:57,120 Speaker 1: if the werewolves are out there and they could rise 452 00:24:57,200 --> 00:24:59,600 Speaker 1: up against us tonight, actually they're going to take their 453 00:24:59,640 --> 00:25:03,119 Speaker 1: time and be patient and wait for a better striking position. 454 00:25:03,280 --> 00:25:05,280 Speaker 1: So it might not happen tonight, but it might be 455 00:25:05,359 --> 00:25:08,480 Speaker 1: worse in the long run. For us humans. Yeah, and 456 00:25:08,600 --> 00:25:11,400 Speaker 1: again this is just an off the cuff interpretation, Bye 457 00:25:11,600 --> 00:25:15,080 Speaker 1: bye bye Joe and I. But but clearly someone the 458 00:25:15,119 --> 00:25:17,800 Speaker 1: more skilled with the with the eaching would be going 459 00:25:17,880 --> 00:25:20,359 Speaker 1: would be applying their own wisdom on top of the 460 00:25:20,440 --> 00:25:25,160 Speaker 1: existing wisdom in the literary passage, right, so their whole 461 00:25:25,200 --> 00:25:27,879 Speaker 1: traditions on how to interpret. And there's more text too. 462 00:25:27,920 --> 00:25:30,640 Speaker 1: I'm just reading the little epigraph bits, right, there's more 463 00:25:30,640 --> 00:25:34,080 Speaker 1: text you can consult, and there are traditions of interpretation. 464 00:25:34,640 --> 00:25:36,720 Speaker 1: So hopefully at this point we've given you just just 465 00:25:36,800 --> 00:25:40,360 Speaker 1: a basic idea of the eaching, and certainly feel free 466 00:25:40,359 --> 00:25:42,640 Speaker 1: to play around with any of these websites to get 467 00:25:43,240 --> 00:25:46,439 Speaker 1: a little better idea of how this rolling is taking 468 00:25:46,440 --> 00:25:49,720 Speaker 1: place and what the different trigegrams look like, and then 469 00:25:49,840 --> 00:25:53,639 Speaker 1: reading the passages to get a taste of the of 470 00:25:53,720 --> 00:25:56,840 Speaker 1: the literary message for each one. So one thing I 471 00:25:56,880 --> 00:25:59,240 Speaker 1: think we should look at if we're considering the potential 472 00:25:59,320 --> 00:26:05,000 Speaker 1: adaptive nous of non magical divination systems, or even considering 473 00:26:05,000 --> 00:26:07,760 Speaker 1: the relative merits of the Book of Changes compared to 474 00:26:07,800 --> 00:26:11,959 Speaker 1: other divination systems, is to look at divination generally and 475 00:26:12,000 --> 00:26:15,399 Speaker 1: see where the eaching fits into the map of human 476 00:26:15,720 --> 00:26:18,960 Speaker 1: divination methods. And one of the sources who has actually 477 00:26:19,040 --> 00:26:22,040 Speaker 1: been very useful by coincidence, I guess, or maybe Young 478 00:26:22,080 --> 00:26:26,240 Speaker 1: would say by synchronicity, but certainly by coincidence on this 479 00:26:26,280 --> 00:26:29,199 Speaker 1: topic is Julian Jaynes. Not not so much for his 480 00:26:29,240 --> 00:26:31,440 Speaker 1: bi cameral mind theory, but just he's got a very 481 00:26:31,520 --> 00:26:35,520 Speaker 1: succinct and interesting explanation of the different types of divination 482 00:26:35,640 --> 00:26:38,360 Speaker 1: and how they occur. Yeah, and he's certainly his main 483 00:26:38,440 --> 00:26:42,000 Speaker 1: interest in it was that, as he saw it, this 484 00:26:42,040 --> 00:26:45,719 Speaker 1: was a new way of making decisions by returning to 485 00:26:45,760 --> 00:26:49,399 Speaker 1: the directions of the gods by simple analogy. But but 486 00:26:49,440 --> 00:26:51,720 Speaker 1: even if you totally ignore the bi cameral mind theory, 487 00:26:51,760 --> 00:26:54,800 Speaker 1: I think he's got a pretty good category system for 488 00:26:54,840 --> 00:26:58,040 Speaker 1: how divination takes place in human history. And he picked 489 00:26:58,080 --> 00:27:00,240 Speaker 1: out there are four sorts, right, You've got oh ones, 490 00:27:00,640 --> 00:27:05,320 Speaker 1: you've got sortilage, you've got augury, and you've got spontaneous divination. Now, 491 00:27:05,400 --> 00:27:08,399 Speaker 1: now augury is of course in tailing said put pulling 492 00:27:08,440 --> 00:27:11,399 Speaker 1: the the intestines out of animals, right, that would be 493 00:27:11,440 --> 00:27:14,879 Speaker 1: one type, one type. So you can cast judgments on 494 00:27:14,960 --> 00:27:18,920 Speaker 1: the likelihood of a ranged list of things by for example, 495 00:27:18,960 --> 00:27:21,600 Speaker 1: looking at the livers of chickens or something like that. 496 00:27:22,240 --> 00:27:25,880 Speaker 1: Another category he uses is omens. Omens is the seeking 497 00:27:25,960 --> 00:27:30,840 Speaker 1: of meaningful information in mundane patterns of events in the world. 498 00:27:30,920 --> 00:27:35,080 Speaker 1: So a blackbird landed on my window sill, that means death. 499 00:27:35,359 --> 00:27:37,280 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, and we're all familiar with these. We still 500 00:27:37,359 --> 00:27:41,920 Speaker 1: are ridiculously susceptible to these. A black cat crosses your path, 501 00:27:42,000 --> 00:27:44,840 Speaker 1: you spec you stepped on a crack. Now your mother 502 00:27:44,920 --> 00:27:47,760 Speaker 1: is in the hospital. Yeah. If a fox runs into 503 00:27:47,800 --> 00:27:50,840 Speaker 1: the public square of the town, will be devastated. That's 504 00:27:50,880 --> 00:27:54,240 Speaker 1: one he sites. So those two you've got. Then you've 505 00:27:54,280 --> 00:27:57,520 Speaker 1: got sortilage, which is the casting of lots, which is 506 00:27:57,680 --> 00:28:02,480 Speaker 1: answering questions or receiving guidance by reference to unpredictable outcomes 507 00:28:02,480 --> 00:28:07,200 Speaker 1: of pseudo random physical events, you know, throwing dice, throwing sticks, 508 00:28:07,320 --> 00:28:12,040 Speaker 1: throwing animal bones, generating random numbers to get answers or 509 00:28:12,119 --> 00:28:14,439 Speaker 1: get some kind of wisdom. And we'll come back to 510 00:28:14,480 --> 00:28:17,200 Speaker 1: this one, yes, And then of course his last category 511 00:28:17,240 --> 00:28:20,520 Speaker 1: is spontaneous divination, which is going to be the most 512 00:28:20,600 --> 00:28:23,560 Speaker 1: free and the most direct, which is just receiving insights 513 00:28:23,560 --> 00:28:26,080 Speaker 1: directly from the gods into the mind of the diviner. 514 00:28:26,480 --> 00:28:29,040 Speaker 1: So this would be like a shower thought would be 515 00:28:29,080 --> 00:28:33,200 Speaker 1: spontaneous divination if if you interpret it, or you could 516 00:28:33,200 --> 00:28:37,000 Speaker 1: compare spontaneous divination to being kind of like omens that 517 00:28:37,119 --> 00:28:40,160 Speaker 1: haven't been pre established. So if like you didn't already 518 00:28:40,160 --> 00:28:42,840 Speaker 1: know that a blackbird means death, you just see a 519 00:28:42,920 --> 00:28:46,120 Speaker 1: thing and you think it means something. You see something 520 00:28:46,120 --> 00:28:48,000 Speaker 1: and you're like, oh, well, that is actually a metaphor 521 00:28:48,040 --> 00:28:50,400 Speaker 1: for what's going on in our country right now, or 522 00:28:50,440 --> 00:28:53,520 Speaker 1: in my life or with my automobile. But so the 523 00:28:53,520 --> 00:28:56,800 Speaker 1: Book of Changes would be an example of swordilage that 524 00:28:56,920 --> 00:28:59,800 Speaker 1: the casting of lots. Right. Yes, I'm going to read 525 00:28:59,800 --> 00:29:04,040 Speaker 1: a passage here from The Bicameral Mind by Julian Jaynes, 526 00:29:04,720 --> 00:29:06,640 Speaker 1: because I feel like this just really drives at home. 527 00:29:07,080 --> 00:29:09,840 Speaker 1: He says, of sort of edge quote. It consisted of 528 00:29:09,880 --> 00:29:13,479 Speaker 1: throwing marked sticks, stones, bones, or beans upon the ground, 529 00:29:13,840 --> 00:29:16,040 Speaker 1: or picking one out of a group held in a bowl, 530 00:29:16,440 --> 00:29:18,959 Speaker 1: or tossing such markers in the lap of a tunic 531 00:29:19,040 --> 00:29:22,200 Speaker 1: until one fell out. Sometimes it was to answer yes 532 00:29:22,320 --> 00:29:24,680 Speaker 1: or no, at other times to choose one out of 533 00:29:24,680 --> 00:29:28,600 Speaker 1: a group of men, plots or alternatives. But this simplicity, 534 00:29:28,920 --> 00:29:32,800 Speaker 1: even triviality, to us, should not blind us from seeing 535 00:29:32,840 --> 00:29:37,120 Speaker 1: the profound psychological problem involved, as well as appreciating its 536 00:29:37,120 --> 00:29:40,920 Speaker 1: remarkable historic importance. We are so used to the huge 537 00:29:41,000 --> 00:29:45,600 Speaker 1: variety of games of chance, of throwing dice, roulette, wheels, etcetera, 538 00:29:45,880 --> 00:29:48,760 Speaker 1: all of them vestiges of this ancient practice of divination 539 00:29:48,840 --> 00:29:51,720 Speaker 1: by lots, that we find it difficult to really appreciate 540 00:29:51,760 --> 00:29:55,120 Speaker 1: the significance of this practice historically. It is a help 541 00:29:55,160 --> 00:29:58,479 Speaker 1: here to realize that there was no concept of chance 542 00:29:58,560 --> 00:30:03,000 Speaker 1: whatever until very recent times. Therefore, the discovery, how odd 543 00:30:03,040 --> 00:30:05,520 Speaker 1: to think of it as a discovery of deciding an 544 00:30:05,520 --> 00:30:08,120 Speaker 1: issue by throwing sticks or beings on the ground, was 545 00:30:08,160 --> 00:30:11,640 Speaker 1: an extremely momentous one for the future of mankind. For 546 00:30:11,800 --> 00:30:14,600 Speaker 1: because there was no chance, the result had to be 547 00:30:14,640 --> 00:30:18,560 Speaker 1: caused by the gods whose intentions were being divined. Isn't 548 00:30:18,600 --> 00:30:22,800 Speaker 1: that fascinating? The idea that randomness was a discovery in 549 00:30:22,960 --> 00:30:26,880 Speaker 1: history that, uh, I mean, we don't know that for sure, 550 00:30:26,920 --> 00:30:29,960 Speaker 1: but I think that is a reasonable way of interpreting 551 00:30:30,120 --> 00:30:33,680 Speaker 1: what people generally acted like in history. A lot of times, 552 00:30:33,680 --> 00:30:35,800 Speaker 1: if you go back into history, people don't seem to 553 00:30:35,800 --> 00:30:38,640 Speaker 1: believe in coincidence very much. That they believe that like 554 00:30:39,160 --> 00:30:42,400 Speaker 1: if something random happened. It happened because the God's made 555 00:30:42,400 --> 00:30:46,520 Speaker 1: it happen that way. And thus, for example, if you 556 00:30:46,560 --> 00:30:49,040 Speaker 1: and your friends draw straws, as to who's going to 557 00:30:49,120 --> 00:30:51,640 Speaker 1: have to I don't know, do do the unwanted task, 558 00:30:51,800 --> 00:30:54,400 Speaker 1: who's gonna have to sweep up after your poker games? Over, 559 00:30:54,880 --> 00:30:57,160 Speaker 1: the person who draws the short straw is not just 560 00:30:57,240 --> 00:30:59,400 Speaker 1: losing a game of chance. They were chosen by the 561 00:30:59,440 --> 00:31:02,000 Speaker 1: gods to sweep up. It might be a punishment. And 562 00:31:02,040 --> 00:31:04,560 Speaker 1: also the outcomes of all your poker hands were chosen 563 00:31:04,560 --> 00:31:06,880 Speaker 1: by the gods. Yeah, we have no real agency in 564 00:31:06,920 --> 00:31:09,480 Speaker 1: any of this. Now, that draws me to the fact 565 00:31:09,600 --> 00:31:12,440 Speaker 1: that we mentioned earlier. I think that Carl Young was 566 00:31:12,920 --> 00:31:16,920 Speaker 1: interested in the eaching, and for for Carl Young, I 567 00:31:16,960 --> 00:31:19,480 Speaker 1: think the eaching definitely meshed with his idea of the 568 00:31:19,480 --> 00:31:23,800 Speaker 1: concept of synchronicity. Right. Young believed he had a lot 569 00:31:23,800 --> 00:31:27,080 Speaker 1: of essentially magical beliefs, and he believed that there was 570 00:31:27,200 --> 00:31:32,080 Speaker 1: an a causal connecting principle in the universe where events 571 00:31:32,120 --> 00:31:36,239 Speaker 1: could be connected by something other than physical causation. And 572 00:31:36,240 --> 00:31:40,719 Speaker 1: he called that connecting principle synchronicity. Uh, it's it's kind 573 00:31:40,720 --> 00:31:44,760 Speaker 1: of hard to explain exactly what he's saying, because, for example, 574 00:31:45,120 --> 00:31:50,240 Speaker 1: you think about someone and then suddenly the phone rings 575 00:31:50,280 --> 00:31:53,640 Speaker 1: and it's that person, and so he would say, well, 576 00:31:53,680 --> 00:31:56,960 Speaker 1: it's not that your thought caused them to call. But 577 00:31:57,000 --> 00:31:59,880 Speaker 1: he also would not just say well, it's just pure randomness, 578 00:32:00,000 --> 00:32:02,800 Speaker 1: it's pure coincidence. He does think that there's some reason 579 00:32:02,880 --> 00:32:07,200 Speaker 1: that happened, it's just not physical causation, and in that 580 00:32:07,400 --> 00:32:11,640 Speaker 1: he saw that principle at work in the eaching. Yeah, 581 00:32:11,680 --> 00:32:14,640 Speaker 1: I mean, we just to break that down a little bit. 582 00:32:14,640 --> 00:32:18,640 Speaker 1: I feel like we can often break that that down 583 00:32:18,760 --> 00:32:21,640 Speaker 1: that that's supposed synchronicity in our own lives. For instance, 584 00:32:21,800 --> 00:32:25,280 Speaker 1: you're watching a movie or TV show with with a 585 00:32:25,320 --> 00:32:29,320 Speaker 1: significant other and there's some framework, there's some mention or 586 00:32:29,720 --> 00:32:32,680 Speaker 1: symbol or emblem that shows up in the show, and 587 00:32:32,760 --> 00:32:35,120 Speaker 1: since you both have a shared such a shared history, 588 00:32:35,160 --> 00:32:38,320 Speaker 1: shared path, shared live, it's liable to trigger the same 589 00:32:38,360 --> 00:32:40,720 Speaker 1: association in both of your minds at the same time. 590 00:32:41,000 --> 00:32:42,840 Speaker 1: And then one mentions, hey, do you remember that time 591 00:32:42,920 --> 00:32:45,520 Speaker 1: we went to the Turkish restaurant? And then you're like, 592 00:32:45,560 --> 00:32:48,520 Speaker 1: I was just thinking about that Turkish restaurant. But it's 593 00:32:48,560 --> 00:32:51,160 Speaker 1: there's nothing mystical going on. It's just that they're there. 594 00:32:51,240 --> 00:32:53,000 Speaker 1: There's certain things between the two of you that are 595 00:32:53,000 --> 00:32:56,000 Speaker 1: in attainment. Yeah, I think that's one good explanation for 596 00:32:56,080 --> 00:32:59,280 Speaker 1: the feeling of synchronicity. I mean, one thing is just 597 00:32:59,720 --> 00:33:03,280 Speaker 1: so election bias, because like most of the time, synchronicity 598 00:33:03,320 --> 00:33:05,680 Speaker 1: type events are not happening, and maybe when they do 599 00:33:05,800 --> 00:33:08,320 Speaker 1: happen by coincidence, you just happen to notice them and 600 00:33:08,360 --> 00:33:11,200 Speaker 1: they seem very significant, but in fact they're very uncommon. 601 00:33:11,520 --> 00:33:14,440 Speaker 1: Another explanation could be maybe if they are more common, 602 00:33:14,600 --> 00:33:17,600 Speaker 1: then would actually be predicted by random chance. There were 603 00:33:17,640 --> 00:33:21,720 Speaker 1: often hidden causative factors, just like you're talking about. There 604 00:33:21,720 --> 00:33:24,800 Speaker 1: are things that did cause this correlation of events that 605 00:33:24,840 --> 00:33:27,800 Speaker 1: you just can't even imagine, but they are pure mundane 606 00:33:27,840 --> 00:33:30,680 Speaker 1: physical causes. All right, I think we'll take a quick 607 00:33:30,720 --> 00:33:32,920 Speaker 1: break and then when we come back, we will discuss 608 00:33:33,240 --> 00:33:36,520 Speaker 1: some weird and esoteric beliefs about the eaching and then 609 00:33:36,680 --> 00:33:39,920 Speaker 1: maybe try to answer that question of what could the 610 00:33:39,960 --> 00:33:45,280 Speaker 1: adaptive value of a totally non predictive, non magical prediction 611 00:33:45,320 --> 00:33:50,280 Speaker 1: book bank Alright, we're back, all right, So I think 612 00:33:50,280 --> 00:33:54,080 Speaker 1: maybe it's time to talk about the Wizard of Psychedelics. Yes, 613 00:33:55,080 --> 00:33:59,680 Speaker 1: Terrence McKenna, because because we mentioned earlier that various sorcerers, 614 00:33:59,720 --> 00:34:02,360 Speaker 1: sign antis, etcetera. Have taken up the Book of Changes 615 00:34:02,360 --> 00:34:04,480 Speaker 1: over the years and found new spins to take on 616 00:34:04,600 --> 00:34:07,600 Speaker 1: its ancient wisdom. If there is anybody who qualifies as 617 00:34:07,640 --> 00:34:10,720 Speaker 1: a modern wizard or sorcerer, I think maybe Terence McKenna 618 00:34:10,719 --> 00:34:14,000 Speaker 1: I would fit that category best. Oh yeah, yeah. Terence McKinney, 619 00:34:14,000 --> 00:34:18,320 Speaker 1: for anyone who's not familiar, was an American ethnobotanist, mystic, 620 00:34:18,800 --> 00:34:22,040 Speaker 1: psychonautic author, and he lived from nineteen forty six to 621 00:34:22,200 --> 00:34:25,040 Speaker 1: the year two thousand. He was a noted again, a 622 00:34:25,080 --> 00:34:29,080 Speaker 1: noted author, a definite counterculture figure. If you look him 623 00:34:29,160 --> 00:34:33,239 Speaker 1: up on YouTube, for instance, you will find various talks 624 00:34:33,280 --> 00:34:36,839 Speaker 1: by Terence McKenna. Interviews with Terence McKenna. I would say 625 00:34:37,280 --> 00:34:40,520 Speaker 1: he's worth looking up for his talks because even though 626 00:34:40,560 --> 00:34:42,920 Speaker 1: most of the time his talks are full of stuff 627 00:34:42,960 --> 00:34:46,520 Speaker 1: that I think is absolute bs, he's so great to 628 00:34:46,600 --> 00:34:50,080 Speaker 1: listen to. And he and even while he's saying stuff 629 00:34:50,280 --> 00:34:54,399 Speaker 1: that I know is probably not true, it's very it's 630 00:34:54,480 --> 00:34:57,640 Speaker 1: very inspiring of paths of thought to go down. Yeah, 631 00:34:57,680 --> 00:35:00,319 Speaker 1: I mean, he's clearly you listen to me, there's there's 632 00:35:00,320 --> 00:35:03,560 Speaker 1: a brilliance to the man. There's a there's a deep 633 00:35:03,600 --> 00:35:06,839 Speaker 1: intelligence Terence McKenna. Uh. And and yet some of the 634 00:35:06,840 --> 00:35:11,280 Speaker 1: theories that he throughout there we're definite suit of science. 635 00:35:11,680 --> 00:35:16,600 Speaker 1: Some are a little more grounded. I guess. I will say, 636 00:35:16,600 --> 00:35:19,640 Speaker 1: we've received a number of suggestions that we cover his 637 00:35:19,719 --> 00:35:23,480 Speaker 1: stoned ape theory of human evolution. So perhaps we'll come 638 00:35:23,480 --> 00:35:25,400 Speaker 1: back at some point and do that, and even do 639 00:35:25,480 --> 00:35:28,319 Speaker 1: a deeper treatment of Terence mckinna's life. Oh yeah, I mean, 640 00:35:28,360 --> 00:35:30,560 Speaker 1: I wouldn't write something off just because he said it. 641 00:35:30,600 --> 00:35:32,279 Speaker 1: I just mean that, Like as much as I like 642 00:35:32,440 --> 00:35:34,799 Speaker 1: listening to him most of the time, even though I've 643 00:35:34,920 --> 00:35:39,160 Speaker 1: enjoyed his talk, it's been full of a lot of magic. Yeah. 644 00:35:39,280 --> 00:35:43,680 Speaker 1: And for instance, you will find interviews where he's discussing 645 00:35:43,680 --> 00:35:47,200 Speaker 1: the eaching. And it's interesting because at times he is 646 00:35:47,400 --> 00:35:51,120 Speaker 1: very you know, spot on with with his interpretation of 647 00:35:51,160 --> 00:35:52,840 Speaker 1: the eaching and what it means and now it matches 648 00:35:52,880 --> 00:35:55,720 Speaker 1: up with human experience and and I'll read a quote 649 00:35:55,719 --> 00:35:57,600 Speaker 1: from him in just just a minute. But other times 650 00:35:57,640 --> 00:36:00,680 Speaker 1: he is of course taking it and using it, wrapping 651 00:36:00,680 --> 00:36:04,319 Speaker 1: it up in his what he called novelty theory. So 652 00:36:04,560 --> 00:36:06,400 Speaker 1: he picked up the Book of Changes in the nineties 653 00:36:06,400 --> 00:36:11,200 Speaker 1: seventies following an experience on psilocybin or magic mushrooms, and 654 00:36:11,360 --> 00:36:14,640 Speaker 1: he started looking at the sixty four hexagrams from the 655 00:36:14,760 --> 00:36:18,120 Speaker 1: Kingland's sequence of the of the Eaching. And this, I 656 00:36:18,120 --> 00:36:22,520 Speaker 1: think is often considered like the most traditionally authoritative sequence, Right. 657 00:36:22,920 --> 00:36:25,520 Speaker 1: I'll include an image of the sequence on the landing 658 00:36:25,520 --> 00:36:27,120 Speaker 1: bait for this episode at stuff to Blow your Mind 659 00:36:27,160 --> 00:36:30,360 Speaker 1: dot com. But he he basically came to believe that 660 00:36:30,400 --> 00:36:34,040 Speaker 1: the sequence revealed the way time flows through the world, 661 00:36:34,520 --> 00:36:37,360 Speaker 1: with peaks and valleys lining up with major events in 662 00:36:37,440 --> 00:36:40,120 Speaker 1: human history, all of it moving towards the end of 663 00:36:40,120 --> 00:36:43,080 Speaker 1: the time wave, towards the end of time. And guess 664 00:36:43,200 --> 00:36:46,880 Speaker 1: when he figured that was going to be today? No, no, 665 00:36:47,000 --> 00:36:49,600 Speaker 1: we were were tomorrow. No no, we're way past it now. 666 00:36:49,760 --> 00:36:54,640 Speaker 1: But it was November. Yeah, well, I guess, I guess 667 00:36:54,640 --> 00:36:57,879 Speaker 1: that was part of the whole twelve thing, wasn't it. Yeah, yeah, 668 00:36:57,880 --> 00:37:01,160 Speaker 1: it was. Consider it's considered one of the major factors there. 669 00:37:01,200 --> 00:37:05,600 Speaker 1: You know that along with various interpretations of the mind calendar. Uh, 670 00:37:05,640 --> 00:37:08,440 Speaker 1: he even had a computer program had lined up with it. 671 00:37:08,560 --> 00:37:11,879 Speaker 1: Time wave zero. Yeah, McKenna did claim that in some 672 00:37:11,960 --> 00:37:16,040 Speaker 1: sense the eaching quote seems to work that quote against 673 00:37:16,080 --> 00:37:20,319 Speaker 1: all rational expectation. The carrying out of this random ritualistic 674 00:37:20,360 --> 00:37:23,759 Speaker 1: activity seems then to give a reading applicable to the 675 00:37:23,840 --> 00:37:27,239 Speaker 1: unique situation. And I would say that hinging on the 676 00:37:27,280 --> 00:37:31,000 Speaker 1: word seems there. I could probably actually agree with that. 677 00:37:31,040 --> 00:37:33,239 Speaker 1: I mean, I don't think that it's actually a magic book, 678 00:37:33,280 --> 00:37:35,480 Speaker 1: that it actually predicts the future, but it does seem 679 00:37:35,560 --> 00:37:39,280 Speaker 1: to provide some kind of value. Yeah, like it cannot 680 00:37:39,719 --> 00:37:43,400 Speaker 1: it obviously cannot be used to actually map out the future, 681 00:37:43,880 --> 00:37:47,800 Speaker 1: but it does line up with our experience of reality 682 00:37:47,800 --> 00:37:51,000 Speaker 1: and our experience of change in time. Yeah. Now he 683 00:37:51,560 --> 00:37:54,879 Speaker 1: went beyond that actually though, which is that McKenna thought 684 00:37:54,880 --> 00:37:57,240 Speaker 1: that the eaching was not just a product of culture, 685 00:37:57,640 --> 00:38:00,160 Speaker 1: but was evidence that the ancient Chinese had some how 686 00:38:00,200 --> 00:38:03,520 Speaker 1: gotten ahead of even today's physicists in coming up with 687 00:38:03,560 --> 00:38:08,400 Speaker 1: what he called an objectively predictive theory of time. Obviously, 688 00:38:08,719 --> 00:38:11,360 Speaker 1: that does not seem very plausible to me, but I'll 689 00:38:11,400 --> 00:38:13,680 Speaker 1: admit it's an interesting idea. It would be a cool 690 00:38:13,760 --> 00:38:16,520 Speaker 1: idea to entertain. Yeah, and when McKinney is talking about 691 00:38:16,560 --> 00:38:19,799 Speaker 1: I mean He's often talking way above my head about it, 692 00:38:19,840 --> 00:38:21,480 Speaker 1: and I think the heads of of of many people 693 00:38:21,480 --> 00:38:24,440 Speaker 1: who are listening to him. Um, But he was not 694 00:38:24,480 --> 00:38:28,400 Speaker 1: approaching it from an area of ignorance. It's it's a 695 00:38:28,520 --> 00:38:32,000 Speaker 1: very complicated theories rolling out here is just ultimately the 696 00:38:32,080 --> 00:38:35,440 Speaker 1: domain of pseudo science or mysticism. But but, but some 697 00:38:35,480 --> 00:38:37,319 Speaker 1: of his his quotes about the eaching I think are 698 00:38:37,320 --> 00:38:42,040 Speaker 1: pretty spot on. Here's one from an interview quote. My 699 00:38:42,160 --> 00:38:44,719 Speaker 1: conclusions looking at the eaching have been that it is 700 00:38:44,760 --> 00:38:47,239 Speaker 1: not possible to know the future. For if it were 701 00:38:47,239 --> 00:38:50,440 Speaker 1: possible to know it, life would be a determinism and 702 00:38:50,520 --> 00:38:53,120 Speaker 1: thinking would be divorced from meaning and we would be 703 00:38:53,160 --> 00:38:55,920 Speaker 1: out of business. But what is possible to know about 704 00:38:55,920 --> 00:38:59,560 Speaker 1: the future is levels of novelty, which future states will 705 00:38:59,600 --> 00:39:03,600 Speaker 1: fulfill by the happenstance of unpredictable events. Now, this is 706 00:39:03,640 --> 00:39:06,560 Speaker 1: a formal well way of saying, we know where the 707 00:39:06,680 --> 00:39:09,640 Speaker 1: road goes, but we don't know what the scenery looks like. 708 00:39:10,120 --> 00:39:12,440 Speaker 1: I feel like there are two different ways of interpreting that. 709 00:39:13,239 --> 00:39:17,439 Speaker 1: One way is to interpret him literally as saying that 710 00:39:17,719 --> 00:39:22,600 Speaker 1: he thinks the teaching does in some sense literally predict 711 00:39:22,600 --> 00:39:25,120 Speaker 1: to the future, in which case, I think he's wrong. 712 00:39:25,440 --> 00:39:28,680 Speaker 1: But if he is saying that it contains insights about 713 00:39:28,840 --> 00:39:32,080 Speaker 1: the way life tends to go, I think you could 714 00:39:32,080 --> 00:39:34,400 Speaker 1: say that that that could be true. Yeah, I think so. 715 00:39:34,680 --> 00:39:37,359 Speaker 1: I feel as we've sort of demonstrated, you can pull 716 00:39:37,600 --> 00:39:41,120 Speaker 1: pretty much any of these trigrams out and they will 717 00:39:41,160 --> 00:39:45,880 Speaker 1: match up with experiences we've had, or anxieties we've felt, 718 00:39:45,960 --> 00:39:48,960 Speaker 1: or situations that we've observed in others or read about 719 00:39:49,000 --> 00:39:51,880 Speaker 1: in the history of civilization. But of course this may 720 00:39:51,960 --> 00:39:53,640 Speaker 1: lead many people to ask, well, then, does it have 721 00:39:53,800 --> 00:39:58,160 Speaker 1: any real value beyond just mirror literature, beyond mere uh, 722 00:39:58,200 --> 00:40:01,240 Speaker 1: you know, ancient wisdom in a book? Well? Yeah, And 723 00:40:01,360 --> 00:40:04,480 Speaker 1: also does it have value? We asked this question earlier. 724 00:40:04,520 --> 00:40:07,960 Speaker 1: I think does that have value comparable to other divination 725 00:40:08,080 --> 00:40:11,880 Speaker 1: systems with content like is it actually a better or 726 00:40:11,960 --> 00:40:15,640 Speaker 1: more useful book than say, consulting your horoscope in the newspaper? 727 00:40:16,239 --> 00:40:18,640 Speaker 1: Or are they all just kind of kind of contain 728 00:40:18,880 --> 00:40:23,080 Speaker 1: vague statements about human life that are often going to 729 00:40:23,239 --> 00:40:25,920 Speaker 1: feel applicable to you and give you some kind of 730 00:40:25,960 --> 00:40:29,759 Speaker 1: feeling of knowing how to deal with things that ultimately 731 00:40:30,200 --> 00:40:32,200 Speaker 1: no better than the fortune cookie, which most of the 732 00:40:32,200 --> 00:40:34,560 Speaker 1: time you just toss it out, but one in a 733 00:40:34,800 --> 00:40:37,400 Speaker 1: hundred or two hundred will have some sort of meaning 734 00:40:37,440 --> 00:40:39,279 Speaker 1: and you'll tuck it away in your wallet. Yeah, and 735 00:40:39,360 --> 00:40:42,200 Speaker 1: so I think people of a secular, skeptical frame of 736 00:40:42,239 --> 00:40:45,080 Speaker 1: mind about divination would tend to assume that, since there 737 00:40:45,160 --> 00:40:48,200 Speaker 1: is no actual way to see into the future, all 738 00:40:48,320 --> 00:40:53,040 Speaker 1: divination systems are equally useless. They're equally perpetuated by people's 739 00:40:53,080 --> 00:40:56,680 Speaker 1: confirmation bias, in general gullibility. It's kind of like you had, 740 00:40:56,800 --> 00:41:00,319 Speaker 1: you know, if you have several different computer programmers write 741 00:41:00,320 --> 00:41:04,000 Speaker 1: programs to randomly predict the final scores of upcoming football games, 742 00:41:04,200 --> 00:41:07,080 Speaker 1: you wouldn't expect one random score pick or program to 743 00:41:07,160 --> 00:41:09,600 Speaker 1: work any better than any other. Right, they'd all be 744 00:41:09,640 --> 00:41:13,120 Speaker 1: equally useless. But just because people can't actually see into 745 00:41:13,120 --> 00:41:16,400 Speaker 1: the future doesn't mean the different divination methods created by 746 00:41:16,440 --> 00:41:20,120 Speaker 1: different people's are of all the same equal worthless value. 747 00:41:20,800 --> 00:41:24,560 Speaker 1: In a way, I think divination methods, especially the bibliomancy, 748 00:41:24,600 --> 00:41:26,960 Speaker 1: like we've been talking about the eaching, As I said, 749 00:41:26,960 --> 00:41:31,760 Speaker 1: they have content, and that content, even when exerted at random, 750 00:41:31,840 --> 00:41:35,239 Speaker 1: can be on average, more or less insightful about the 751 00:41:35,280 --> 00:41:39,200 Speaker 1: present and the future of the wisdom seeker. So while 752 00:41:39,239 --> 00:41:42,400 Speaker 1: I think McKenna was grossly overstating the case by claiming 753 00:41:42,440 --> 00:41:45,440 Speaker 1: that the eaching is an objective scientific theory of time, 754 00:41:45,960 --> 00:41:48,920 Speaker 1: I think there can be divination systems in which the contents, 755 00:41:49,080 --> 00:41:52,480 Speaker 1: more accurately or less accurately, tend to suggest to people 756 00:41:52,920 --> 00:41:56,000 Speaker 1: valuable insights about their lives and the situations they face. 757 00:41:56,719 --> 00:41:58,080 Speaker 1: And in a way, I think this is kind of 758 00:41:58,080 --> 00:42:00,640 Speaker 1: analogous to the idea that there could be like a 759 00:42:00,680 --> 00:42:04,880 Speaker 1: good palm reader and a bad palm reader. Right in 760 00:42:04,920 --> 00:42:09,120 Speaker 1: both cases, palm reading is pseudoscience or it's magic. Uh, 761 00:42:09,360 --> 00:42:12,440 Speaker 1: there's no correlation between what your palm looks like and 762 00:42:12,480 --> 00:42:14,719 Speaker 1: what your future will be, or there's little correlation. I 763 00:42:14,719 --> 00:42:16,440 Speaker 1: don't know. You might be able to like see somebody's 764 00:42:16,520 --> 00:42:18,640 Speaker 1: rough hands and think you'll probably continue doing a lot 765 00:42:18,719 --> 00:42:21,000 Speaker 1: of work with your hands, but there's not going to 766 00:42:21,080 --> 00:42:24,400 Speaker 1: be much actual correlation there. So the reader has no 767 00:42:24,520 --> 00:42:28,399 Speaker 1: paranormal access to hidden information. But some palm readers are 768 00:42:28,400 --> 00:42:31,719 Speaker 1: going to be better at making correct or insightful statements 769 00:42:31,719 --> 00:42:34,280 Speaker 1: about the person they're reading by using all the standard 770 00:42:34,280 --> 00:42:37,479 Speaker 1: cold reading tricks. You notice body language, you catch hits 771 00:42:37,480 --> 00:42:40,560 Speaker 1: and build on them, and so forth. Or just by 772 00:42:40,600 --> 00:42:45,000 Speaker 1: being a wiser person and having more thoughtful stuff to say. Now, 773 00:42:45,280 --> 00:42:47,640 Speaker 1: a book doesn't have any way of like reading the 774 00:42:47,640 --> 00:42:50,439 Speaker 1: body language of the reader and feeding back off that. 775 00:42:50,880 --> 00:42:53,920 Speaker 1: But some books are written by wiser people who have 776 00:42:54,080 --> 00:42:57,360 Speaker 1: more insights about the way life goes. Then again you 777 00:42:57,400 --> 00:42:59,840 Speaker 1: might wonder, Okay, how could that apply to the eaching 778 00:43:00,040 --> 00:43:03,040 Speaker 1: since it has you know, it tends to trade in 779 00:43:03,080 --> 00:43:07,520 Speaker 1: these like weird, cool, cryptic kind of statements, right, could 780 00:43:07,560 --> 00:43:10,360 Speaker 1: those really be all that insightful? I want to mention 781 00:43:10,400 --> 00:43:12,759 Speaker 1: a personal essay. I read an Eon magazine by a 782 00:43:12,800 --> 00:43:16,400 Speaker 1: fiction writer named Will Buckingham about his personal relationship with 783 00:43:16,480 --> 00:43:19,440 Speaker 1: the Eaching over the years, and he also, in his 784 00:43:19,480 --> 00:43:23,680 Speaker 1: own way kind of like McKenna, claimed that the eaching works, 785 00:43:23,920 --> 00:43:26,680 Speaker 1: but not in a magical sense. And I think the 786 00:43:26,719 --> 00:43:28,719 Speaker 1: most interesting thing he writes in the essay is that 787 00:43:28,760 --> 00:43:32,040 Speaker 1: he thinks the value of the eaching lies not in 788 00:43:32,160 --> 00:43:35,840 Speaker 1: it giving accurate or certain predictions about the future, but 789 00:43:35,920 --> 00:43:40,719 Speaker 1: in providing what he calls better uncertainties. He mentions a 790 00:43:40,760 --> 00:43:44,720 Speaker 1: twelfth century poet and scholar named Yang Wan Lee who wrote, quote, 791 00:43:44,760 --> 00:43:47,640 Speaker 1: the profound implications of the Book of Changes are what 792 00:43:47,680 --> 00:43:51,880 Speaker 1: plunges people of the world into doubts and makes them think. 793 00:43:53,960 --> 00:43:56,200 Speaker 1: And then he writes, I use the eaching not as 794 00:43:56,239 --> 00:43:59,480 Speaker 1: a certain team machine, but as an uncertain team machine 795 00:43:59,760 --> 00:44:04,040 Speaker 1: does solving false certainties. It integrates the fact of unknowing 796 00:44:04,160 --> 00:44:07,120 Speaker 1: into the fabric of my thinking, opening me up to 797 00:44:07,200 --> 00:44:11,799 Speaker 1: hitherto unimagined possibilities, scattering the monotony of my either or 798 00:44:11,880 --> 00:44:16,520 Speaker 1: dilemmas into a myriad of forking paths. I like that, 799 00:44:16,560 --> 00:44:18,759 Speaker 1: and I want to think about that well. To go 800 00:44:18,800 --> 00:44:21,280 Speaker 1: back to your your example of consulting the the eaching 801 00:44:21,640 --> 00:44:25,960 Speaker 1: on your your writing project this weekend, I can imagine 802 00:44:25,960 --> 00:44:29,000 Speaker 1: a situation where one is thinking, is not even entertaining 803 00:44:29,040 --> 00:44:32,680 Speaker 1: the idea of of of doing some revisions you know, 804 00:44:33,320 --> 00:44:36,640 Speaker 1: and then consulting the eaching seems to suggest that you 805 00:44:36,640 --> 00:44:39,880 Speaker 1: should do revisions or you know, and it it makes 806 00:44:39,920 --> 00:44:43,719 Speaker 1: you contemplate a path that you had already decided to 807 00:44:43,800 --> 00:44:47,120 Speaker 1: steer away from, and it makes you reconsider your choices. 808 00:44:47,440 --> 00:44:49,920 Speaker 1: I think that is a profound insight. I want to 809 00:44:49,920 --> 00:44:55,080 Speaker 1: think about the idea of introducing randomness into behavior. So 810 00:44:55,600 --> 00:45:01,440 Speaker 1: most studies show that humans are unable to spontaneous regenerate randomness. 811 00:45:01,920 --> 00:45:04,959 Speaker 1: This is often demonstrated. If you get some people into 812 00:45:04,960 --> 00:45:07,160 Speaker 1: a room and say I want you to create a 813 00:45:07,280 --> 00:45:10,359 Speaker 1: random list of digits, can you do it? Robert, give 814 00:45:10,400 --> 00:45:17,640 Speaker 1: me a random list of digits? Oh? What one, three, six, nine, two, three, eight? 815 00:45:18,360 --> 00:45:20,320 Speaker 1: Not very good? Is it? Well? I don't know. It 816 00:45:20,600 --> 00:45:23,239 Speaker 1: fell random as I was belting it out. But but 817 00:45:23,320 --> 00:45:25,480 Speaker 1: I did also I could I could sense myself sort 818 00:45:25,480 --> 00:45:29,280 Speaker 1: of casting about for numbers. Yeah. Yeah. Most studies find 819 00:45:29,320 --> 00:45:33,680 Speaker 1: that the lists people creative these digits are, in mathematical terms, 820 00:45:33,800 --> 00:45:37,680 Speaker 1: very non random. The brain has what it interprets as 821 00:45:37,719 --> 00:45:40,080 Speaker 1: an internal randomness generator, Like if I ask you to 822 00:45:40,080 --> 00:45:42,680 Speaker 1: say a random word, you'll be able to say a 823 00:45:42,719 --> 00:45:46,319 Speaker 1: word that feels random to you. But in fact it 824 00:45:46,400 --> 00:45:49,080 Speaker 1: might not be so random. It might be actually pretty 825 00:45:49,160 --> 00:45:52,440 Speaker 1: easy to predict what kind of words you're going to say. 826 00:45:52,520 --> 00:45:55,680 Speaker 1: And in the case of listing numbers, it is provably 827 00:45:55,840 --> 00:45:58,200 Speaker 1: very easy to predict what number you're going to say, 828 00:45:58,239 --> 00:46:00,759 Speaker 1: because people have done it with computer models. So I 829 00:46:00,760 --> 00:46:04,239 Speaker 1: want to look at a study from Plos one by 830 00:46:04,560 --> 00:46:07,200 Speaker 1: Mark Andre Schultz at all. What they did in this 831 00:46:07,280 --> 00:46:10,359 Speaker 1: study was that they did this like digit listing thing, 832 00:46:10,920 --> 00:46:13,160 Speaker 1: and they came up with a computer model using a 833 00:46:13,200 --> 00:46:16,839 Speaker 1: principle called Lewenstein dam a rale distance to look at 834 00:46:16,840 --> 00:46:20,480 Speaker 1: a list of supposedly random digits generated by human subject 835 00:46:20,480 --> 00:46:22,960 Speaker 1: and then predict what the next number in the sequence 836 00:46:23,000 --> 00:46:25,400 Speaker 1: would be. The model was able to do this at 837 00:46:25,400 --> 00:46:27,960 Speaker 1: a rate much better than chance. So if the numbers 838 00:46:27,960 --> 00:46:30,759 Speaker 1: were really random, they would have the model would not 839 00:46:30,880 --> 00:46:32,879 Speaker 1: have been able to do any better than chance right, 840 00:46:32,920 --> 00:46:36,640 Speaker 1: and the percentage chance he would expect would be eleven 841 00:46:36,640 --> 00:46:39,719 Speaker 1: percent of the computer model getting the numbers right. But 842 00:46:39,800 --> 00:46:42,680 Speaker 1: in reality, the mean prediction rate of this program was 843 00:46:42,719 --> 00:46:47,080 Speaker 1: twent This means that the lists of digits people generated 844 00:46:47,120 --> 00:46:50,959 Speaker 1: were not random. They contained patterns that the human generators 845 00:46:50,960 --> 00:46:54,640 Speaker 1: were simply not aware of. And it gets worse. The 846 00:46:54,719 --> 00:46:58,560 Speaker 1: patterns were also persons specific. Not only could this computer 847 00:46:58,600 --> 00:47:00,880 Speaker 1: model look at a list of random members generated by 848 00:47:00,960 --> 00:47:04,520 Speaker 1: humans and do significantly better than chance predicting what numbers 849 00:47:04,560 --> 00:47:08,000 Speaker 1: would come next, it could identify patterns unique to each 850 00:47:08,040 --> 00:47:11,680 Speaker 1: individual subject. So like if Dale just said six, you 851 00:47:11,719 --> 00:47:14,400 Speaker 1: can be pretty sure he's about to say three. But 852 00:47:14,520 --> 00:47:18,640 Speaker 1: to extrapolate, isn't a lot of life like this? Like 853 00:47:18,760 --> 00:47:22,520 Speaker 1: you find yourself with the urge to do something spontaneous, 854 00:47:22,600 --> 00:47:26,200 Speaker 1: to seek novelty, But what do you actually do almost 855 00:47:26,239 --> 00:47:29,400 Speaker 1: all the time, Yeah, you fall back on pre existing 856 00:47:29,440 --> 00:47:32,760 Speaker 1: patterns of behavior. Yeah, exactly, you do what you've done before, 857 00:47:32,800 --> 00:47:35,960 Speaker 1: even when you think you're being spontaneous, like this is 858 00:47:35,960 --> 00:47:39,040 Speaker 1: a horrible example, Robert. I know you've had this experience 859 00:47:39,120 --> 00:47:41,920 Speaker 1: I have. Do you ever sit down with somebody and say, 860 00:47:42,040 --> 00:47:44,680 Speaker 1: let's watch a new movie, let's find something new to watch, 861 00:47:45,040 --> 00:47:48,400 Speaker 1: and you go through some complicated, drawn out selection process 862 00:47:48,440 --> 00:47:50,920 Speaker 1: to find a new movie you've never seen before, and 863 00:47:50,960 --> 00:47:55,320 Speaker 1: you start watching it, only to gradually realize, wait a second, 864 00:47:56,040 --> 00:47:58,520 Speaker 1: didn't we try to watch this same movie a few 865 00:47:58,600 --> 00:48:01,080 Speaker 1: years ago and we didn't like it, so we stopped 866 00:48:01,080 --> 00:48:04,000 Speaker 1: halfway through. I've had that experience with other people. I 867 00:48:04,640 --> 00:48:06,560 Speaker 1: tend to remember. It's one of one of the few 868 00:48:06,600 --> 00:48:08,600 Speaker 1: things I can I can count on myself to remember, 869 00:48:08,640 --> 00:48:11,160 Speaker 1: is whether I have seen a film or tried to 870 00:48:11,200 --> 00:48:13,480 Speaker 1: watch it before. But but as far as the long, 871 00:48:13,560 --> 00:48:15,879 Speaker 1: drawn out selection process, certainly, there's so many times where 872 00:48:15,880 --> 00:48:19,240 Speaker 1: you end up just scrolling through Netflix or Hulu until 873 00:48:19,280 --> 00:48:21,319 Speaker 1: you just you just sort of time out on it. 874 00:48:21,360 --> 00:48:23,360 Speaker 1: You give up, and you just pull up something that 875 00:48:23,480 --> 00:48:26,000 Speaker 1: you were already watching, and maybe we weren't that into 876 00:48:26,239 --> 00:48:28,680 Speaker 1: or just something you've seen before, right, But so this 877 00:48:28,760 --> 00:48:31,160 Speaker 1: is just about what to watch, and even this shows 878 00:48:31,200 --> 00:48:34,279 Speaker 1: that we are so much more patterned and predictable even 879 00:48:34,320 --> 00:48:37,480 Speaker 1: when we're trying to seek spontaneity. Of course, randomness and 880 00:48:37,520 --> 00:48:40,319 Speaker 1: novelty are so much more important than that, and there's 881 00:48:40,360 --> 00:48:43,000 Speaker 1: so much more important than just finding an interesting new movie. 882 00:48:43,040 --> 00:48:46,520 Speaker 1: Like at the level of technology and science, random enough 883 00:48:46,600 --> 00:48:51,160 Speaker 1: pseudo random numbers and processes are necessary for accurate statistical sampling, 884 00:48:51,560 --> 00:48:56,000 Speaker 1: for computer modeling of complex phenomenon, definitely for cryptography. At 885 00:48:56,000 --> 00:49:00,120 Speaker 1: the level of biology, randomness is necessary in order or 886 00:49:00,200 --> 00:49:04,960 Speaker 1: organisms to evolve. The primary driver of evolution is natural selection, 887 00:49:05,360 --> 00:49:08,960 Speaker 1: picking from among random mutations. If you don't have enough 888 00:49:09,080 --> 00:49:12,400 Speaker 1: random mutations, if your mutation rate is too low, you 889 00:49:12,480 --> 00:49:16,600 Speaker 1: can't adapt, you can't evolve, you can't create a diverse biosphere. 890 00:49:16,960 --> 00:49:20,040 Speaker 1: You could live in a world of fragile, cloned organisms, 891 00:49:20,120 --> 00:49:25,239 Speaker 1: highly vulnerable to extinction. So I wonder if there are 892 00:49:25,480 --> 00:49:29,279 Speaker 1: analogies to this and the behavior of complex animals, like 893 00:49:29,600 --> 00:49:35,440 Speaker 1: our macroscopic random mutations of behavior important for the quality 894 00:49:35,480 --> 00:49:40,279 Speaker 1: and success of an individual's life. So anyway, I think 895 00:49:40,320 --> 00:49:42,440 Speaker 1: this kind of brings us back to the question from 896 00:49:42,440 --> 00:49:48,160 Speaker 1: earlier of how predictively worthless divination methods could still be adaptive, 897 00:49:48,440 --> 00:49:51,040 Speaker 1: how they might be useful even though they're not magic. 898 00:49:51,560 --> 00:49:55,320 Speaker 1: What if divination methods like the each ing are useful 899 00:49:55,360 --> 00:49:59,240 Speaker 1: because they introduce an element of randomness into our behavior 900 00:49:59,280 --> 00:50:02,560 Speaker 1: and motivation that we would not be able or willing 901 00:50:02,600 --> 00:50:05,239 Speaker 1: to introduce on our own. Yeah, I mean, they could 902 00:50:05,320 --> 00:50:09,439 Speaker 1: be the only way to introduce true randomness into your 903 00:50:09,480 --> 00:50:13,640 Speaker 1: life because even you know, certainly we live within chaotic systems. 904 00:50:13,640 --> 00:50:16,799 Speaker 1: But but even within those chaotic systems, there's there's a 905 00:50:16,800 --> 00:50:20,759 Speaker 1: fair amount of dependability, you know. I mean, I mean 906 00:50:20,800 --> 00:50:26,240 Speaker 1: we build whole structures for our lives to eliminate unpredictability, right, Yeah, 907 00:50:26,280 --> 00:50:29,480 Speaker 1: and also playing with a certain amount of probability. Um, 908 00:50:29,520 --> 00:50:32,319 Speaker 1: Like I I have to be prepared for various weather 909 00:50:32,360 --> 00:50:35,879 Speaker 1: scenarios to take place in the next week, but I'm 910 00:50:35,880 --> 00:50:39,640 Speaker 1: fairly sure it's not going to snow. We'll see. Um. 911 00:50:39,680 --> 00:50:42,160 Speaker 1: You know, these sort of these sort of considerations come 912 00:50:42,200 --> 00:50:44,360 Speaker 1: up time and time again. But if you have a 913 00:50:44,400 --> 00:50:49,239 Speaker 1: true random randomness generator, then you were gonna have to think, well, 914 00:50:49,280 --> 00:50:51,080 Speaker 1: what if it did snow, what's my plan for the 915 00:50:51,160 --> 00:50:54,880 Speaker 1: for the snow day next week, and uh and and 916 00:50:54,920 --> 00:50:58,120 Speaker 1: that can force you to consider possibilities that just would 917 00:50:58,120 --> 00:51:00,879 Speaker 1: not be there if you did not have something like 918 00:51:00,920 --> 00:51:04,239 Speaker 1: that eaching to turn to yeah, exactly. So. The way 919 00:51:04,320 --> 00:51:06,880 Speaker 1: I'm thinking about this is that what what if divination 920 00:51:06,960 --> 00:51:09,960 Speaker 1: methods are essentially a way we've come up with for 921 00:51:10,120 --> 00:51:15,640 Speaker 1: encouraging mutations in our behavior in the evolutionary sense, allowing 922 00:51:15,640 --> 00:51:19,080 Speaker 1: our lives and societies to test new ways of living 923 00:51:19,400 --> 00:51:23,439 Speaker 1: and potentially culturally evolve. I can't help it come back 924 00:51:23,480 --> 00:51:25,560 Speaker 1: to the Game of Werewolf that we just kind of 925 00:51:26,160 --> 00:51:29,520 Speaker 1: haphazardly mentioned earlier. But in the game of the Werewolf, 926 00:51:29,760 --> 00:51:33,399 Speaker 1: it is random. It is completely random who is going 927 00:51:33,440 --> 00:51:36,799 Speaker 1: to be the werewolf in a given game, which individuals 928 00:51:36,800 --> 00:51:39,880 Speaker 1: will be the villains of that round of play, and 929 00:51:39,920 --> 00:51:42,920 Speaker 1: that pure randomness is one of the main reasons the 930 00:51:42,920 --> 00:51:45,520 Speaker 1: game is so engaging. But it brings out things in 931 00:51:45,600 --> 00:51:49,960 Speaker 1: people like the randomness can allow you to suddenly have 932 00:51:50,160 --> 00:51:52,719 Speaker 1: to be the deceiver when you wouldn't normally play that 933 00:51:52,840 --> 00:51:55,400 Speaker 1: role in life, that's not part of your established patterns 934 00:51:55,400 --> 00:51:58,200 Speaker 1: of behavior. It draws out things in your personality that 935 00:51:58,239 --> 00:52:01,919 Speaker 1: you wouldn't have accessed otherwise is yeah, I mean God, 936 00:52:02,040 --> 00:52:04,440 Speaker 1: And then there's I don't want to talk too much 937 00:52:04,440 --> 00:52:07,560 Speaker 1: about gambling and all this, but but imagine like the 938 00:52:07,600 --> 00:52:11,920 Speaker 1: weirdness of the lottery. In considering this, somebody, we're just 939 00:52:11,920 --> 00:52:14,960 Speaker 1: gonna make somebody a millionaire, just just randomly, and see 940 00:52:14,960 --> 00:52:18,160 Speaker 1: what happens. See how it affects that everybody. It seems 941 00:52:18,160 --> 00:52:20,960 Speaker 1: like it often doesn't work out too good. Well no, 942 00:52:21,239 --> 00:52:23,719 Speaker 1: but for other people. For me, I feel like I 943 00:52:23,719 --> 00:52:27,399 Speaker 1: could handle it. But that's what we all tell each other, right, Yeah, 944 00:52:27,600 --> 00:52:31,840 Speaker 1: that might be different. Even playing the lottery, though, is 945 00:52:31,840 --> 00:52:35,200 Speaker 1: is kind of a contemplation of that uncertainty. What did happen? 946 00:52:35,320 --> 00:52:38,040 Speaker 1: I mean, generally that's the only option that someone is 947 00:52:38,120 --> 00:52:40,799 Speaker 1: fantasizing about when they play it. What if I win? 948 00:52:40,960 --> 00:52:43,759 Speaker 1: What will that be like? Now, a counter factual to 949 00:52:43,960 --> 00:52:47,880 Speaker 1: this hypothesis that I just put out there that divination 950 00:52:47,960 --> 00:52:50,560 Speaker 1: methods might be valuable because they introduce random to s 951 00:52:50,640 --> 00:52:54,000 Speaker 1: into our lives is that you could think that, like 952 00:52:54,080 --> 00:52:58,280 Speaker 1: in nature, most mutations are either either have no effect 953 00:52:58,400 --> 00:53:01,319 Speaker 1: or are harmful. Right, But I wonder if there is 954 00:53:01,360 --> 00:53:06,520 Speaker 1: an overall selection effect on introducing randomness into behavior, because 955 00:53:06,920 --> 00:53:12,040 Speaker 1: really good deviations from patterns of behavior are are beneficial 956 00:53:12,200 --> 00:53:15,640 Speaker 1: enough to keep the whole thing in the in the black. Well, 957 00:53:15,680 --> 00:53:17,719 Speaker 1: if you're bringing up at the very beginning of the 958 00:53:17,719 --> 00:53:20,920 Speaker 1: episode the idea of pulling up random passages from the Bible, 959 00:53:21,360 --> 00:53:23,399 Speaker 1: and we can just apply this to any book that 960 00:53:23,680 --> 00:53:26,799 Speaker 1: you yourself consider a book of wisdom. It could be, 961 00:53:26,920 --> 00:53:30,400 Speaker 1: it could be any religious or secular work. The first 962 00:53:30,440 --> 00:53:32,400 Speaker 1: five times you do it, you could get nonsense, You 963 00:53:32,440 --> 00:53:34,840 Speaker 1: could get what would be in a biological level, just 964 00:53:34,880 --> 00:53:39,000 Speaker 1: a disastrous mutation. But but then you keep going until 965 00:53:39,000 --> 00:53:41,880 Speaker 1: you hit the one that is novel that you hadn't 966 00:53:41,920 --> 00:53:45,000 Speaker 1: thought about. Uh, And I mean that's what makes the 967 00:53:45,040 --> 00:53:48,319 Speaker 1: process worthwhile. Yeah, well, but that what you just said 968 00:53:48,360 --> 00:53:51,880 Speaker 1: also makes me think about how this hypothesis could inform 969 00:53:52,480 --> 00:53:56,160 Speaker 1: the idea that some divination methods are actually more adaptive 970 00:53:56,200 --> 00:53:58,680 Speaker 1: than others. Even though none of them are actually magic, 971 00:53:58,760 --> 00:54:01,400 Speaker 1: none of them can actually predict the future, some of 972 00:54:01,440 --> 00:54:04,560 Speaker 1: them do feel more useful. And this could be because, 973 00:54:04,600 --> 00:54:09,800 Speaker 1: for example, spontaneous divination would not allow you to depart 974 00:54:09,920 --> 00:54:13,280 Speaker 1: from internally establish mental patterns. Right if you're just looking 975 00:54:13,280 --> 00:54:15,600 Speaker 1: at stuff and saying, what does this mean from the gods, 976 00:54:15,880 --> 00:54:18,279 Speaker 1: you're probably you're just drawing on the same types of 977 00:54:18,280 --> 00:54:21,680 Speaker 1: thought processes that would normally guide your behavior. Yeah. Yeah, 978 00:54:21,680 --> 00:54:26,000 Speaker 1: you're not really reaching outside yourself for that answer. Sort 979 00:54:26,000 --> 00:54:28,680 Speaker 1: of lige on the other hand, maybe more useful for 980 00:54:28,719 --> 00:54:31,600 Speaker 1: this kind of thing, because if you're employing sufficiently pseudo 981 00:54:31,680 --> 00:54:35,960 Speaker 1: random processes like rolling dice or yarrow sticks or flipping coins, 982 00:54:36,480 --> 00:54:39,680 Speaker 1: then you and then you use those numbers to consult 983 00:54:39,719 --> 00:54:42,279 Speaker 1: sections of a pre written text that you can't edit 984 00:54:42,360 --> 00:54:46,759 Speaker 1: and you didn't create. You are introducing external random factors 985 00:54:46,800 --> 00:54:49,480 Speaker 1: into your life that you have no control over. Now, 986 00:54:49,480 --> 00:54:52,000 Speaker 1: there might be to some extent and ability to sort 987 00:54:52,000 --> 00:54:55,600 Speaker 1: of correct for that randomness by your process of interpretation. 988 00:54:56,200 --> 00:54:58,640 Speaker 1: But I wonder if some of the value of the 989 00:54:58,640 --> 00:55:02,399 Speaker 1: the interpretive tradition ends about things like the eaching make 990 00:55:02,480 --> 00:55:07,839 Speaker 1: it harder for you to ignore the random aspects of 991 00:55:07,920 --> 00:55:12,360 Speaker 1: these of these divination outcomes, right, They make it harder 992 00:55:12,440 --> 00:55:15,560 Speaker 1: for you to rationalize away novelty and make you sort 993 00:55:15,560 --> 00:55:18,719 Speaker 1: of like face the randomness. And of course randomness can 994 00:55:18,760 --> 00:55:23,799 Speaker 1: be pleasant, it can be terrifying, Yeah, depending on the 995 00:55:23,840 --> 00:55:27,759 Speaker 1: details of what you're contemplating. Totally true. Now, one last 996 00:55:27,800 --> 00:55:29,879 Speaker 1: thing I have to kind of wonder about though, if 997 00:55:29,920 --> 00:55:33,960 Speaker 1: this is true, If it is true that methods like 998 00:55:34,080 --> 00:55:37,640 Speaker 1: this work by introducing randomness into your life, and that 999 00:55:37,760 --> 00:55:40,200 Speaker 1: can in many cases have some kind of benefit, do 1000 00:55:40,280 --> 00:55:44,600 Speaker 1: you lose the benefit if you understand that process, Like, 1001 00:55:44,680 --> 00:55:47,680 Speaker 1: if you don't actually think that the wisdom provided by 1002 00:55:47,680 --> 00:55:50,400 Speaker 1: the eaching is some kind of magic thing delivered by 1003 00:55:50,440 --> 00:55:52,600 Speaker 1: the gods. If you think it's, well, this is just 1004 00:55:52,640 --> 00:55:55,640 Speaker 1: a random process that I'm using to introduce some creative 1005 00:55:55,680 --> 00:55:59,319 Speaker 1: novelty into my life, does it still have the same 1006 00:55:59,320 --> 00:56:04,200 Speaker 1: power to do that? So? Yeah, So the idea here 1007 00:56:04,239 --> 00:56:06,680 Speaker 1: being that you would have to buy into the eaching 1008 00:56:06,800 --> 00:56:09,160 Speaker 1: to a certain amount to get anything out of it. 1009 00:56:09,280 --> 00:56:11,080 Speaker 1: I mean, I'm saying, I wonder if you would have to. 1010 00:56:11,320 --> 00:56:12,680 Speaker 1: I feel like the answer to that is going to 1011 00:56:12,800 --> 00:56:16,799 Speaker 1: vary from individual to individual. You know, It's like to 1012 00:56:16,920 --> 00:56:20,200 Speaker 1: what to to varying degrees. I feel each individual is 1013 00:56:20,239 --> 00:56:25,279 Speaker 1: able to turn to something like the eaching and and 1014 00:56:25,360 --> 00:56:27,840 Speaker 1: sort of divide it, you know, and understand that, Okay, 1015 00:56:27,840 --> 00:56:30,200 Speaker 1: this is not the voice of the divine, but I 1016 00:56:30,200 --> 00:56:32,520 Speaker 1: can find some wisdom in it, you know, Like, to 1017 00:56:32,600 --> 00:56:36,800 Speaker 1: what extent can the individual? Does the individual value insight 1018 00:56:37,160 --> 00:56:42,520 Speaker 1: in literature or in historical texts or or to what 1019 00:56:42,600 --> 00:56:46,279 Speaker 1: extent do they view randomness as a beneficial aspect of 1020 00:56:46,360 --> 00:56:50,399 Speaker 1: life and not just pure chaos to be avoided. Right, Well, 1021 00:56:50,400 --> 00:56:53,040 Speaker 1: I mean yeah, I guess some people would get random 1022 00:56:53,680 --> 00:56:56,879 Speaker 1: insights or random charges to action, and they would tend 1023 00:56:56,880 --> 00:56:59,440 Speaker 1: to ignore them because they break patterns of behavior. Some 1024 00:56:59,480 --> 00:57:02,560 Speaker 1: people are just we're very set in our ways, aren't we. Yeah, 1025 00:57:02,680 --> 00:57:07,520 Speaker 1: And changes terrifying, but that's that's all. That's the crazy 1026 00:57:07,560 --> 00:57:09,279 Speaker 1: things that that is what this is all about. I mean, 1027 00:57:09,280 --> 00:57:12,200 Speaker 1: it's the Book of Changes. It's the book of dealing 1028 00:57:12,440 --> 00:57:14,920 Speaker 1: with the rate of change in our lives in the 1029 00:57:15,000 --> 00:57:18,760 Speaker 1: universe and how one is supposed to react accordingly so 1030 00:57:18,840 --> 00:57:23,240 Speaker 1: as to avoid the more detrimental situations. It's the book 1031 00:57:23,240 --> 00:57:25,880 Speaker 1: of entropy. Yeah, all right, So there you have it. 1032 00:57:25,920 --> 00:57:28,360 Speaker 1: Hopefully we gave you a lot to chew on here, 1033 00:57:28,560 --> 00:57:33,000 Speaker 1: along with just a basic understanding of what the eaching 1034 00:57:33,240 --> 00:57:36,440 Speaker 1: is and how it fits in with other divination practices 1035 00:57:36,440 --> 00:57:38,800 Speaker 1: from around the world. If you'd like to reach out 1036 00:57:38,840 --> 00:57:41,240 Speaker 1: to us uh and discuss any of this, well, hey, 1037 00:57:41,240 --> 00:57:44,680 Speaker 1: you can find us on social media or on Facebook, Twitter, Tumbler, Instagram. 1038 00:57:45,200 --> 00:57:47,160 Speaker 1: We're also, of course, that's stuff to blow your mind 1039 00:57:47,200 --> 00:57:48,880 Speaker 1: dot com that is the mothership. That is where you 1040 00:57:48,920 --> 00:57:51,560 Speaker 1: will find all the episodes of the podcast, as well 1041 00:57:51,560 --> 00:57:54,160 Speaker 1: as the links out to those social media accounts. Thanks 1042 00:57:54,200 --> 00:57:57,480 Speaker 1: as always to our excellent audio producers Alex Andry, and 1043 00:57:57,640 --> 00:58:01,120 Speaker 1: thanks to our guest producer Paul for stepping in today. Paul, 1044 00:58:01,200 --> 00:58:03,760 Speaker 1: you're doing great. If you'd like to get in touch 1045 00:58:03,800 --> 00:58:06,320 Speaker 1: with us about this episode or any other, or if 1046 00:58:06,360 --> 00:58:08,120 Speaker 1: you would like to let us know a topic that 1047 00:58:08,160 --> 00:58:10,120 Speaker 1: you think we should do in the future, or just 1048 00:58:10,240 --> 00:58:12,800 Speaker 1: to say hi, you can always email us at Blow 1049 00:58:12,880 --> 00:58:25,400 Speaker 1: the Mind at how stuff works dot com for more 1050 00:58:25,400 --> 00:58:28,120 Speaker 1: illness and thousands of other topics because it how stuff 1051 00:58:28,120 --> 00:58:51,560 Speaker 1: works dot com.