1 00:00:11,560 --> 00:00:15,320 Speaker 1: There's this question that's been haunting our series Zoe and 2 00:00:15,520 --> 00:00:19,960 Speaker 1: also neurolinguistic programming in general. Here it is, is it 3 00:00:20,079 --> 00:00:23,240 Speaker 1: possible to hypnotize someone to get them to do what 4 00:00:23,280 --> 00:00:25,000 Speaker 1: you want without them knowing? 5 00:00:25,960 --> 00:00:29,800 Speaker 2: This is the big spooky question. In nineteen eighty three, 6 00:00:30,160 --> 00:00:33,720 Speaker 2: Science Digest was quoting experts who warrened NLP could become 7 00:00:33,920 --> 00:00:38,000 Speaker 2: quote the most sophisticated mind control technology ever. 8 00:00:38,800 --> 00:00:42,199 Speaker 1: A lot of academics say it's bs. There's no magic 9 00:00:42,320 --> 00:00:46,440 Speaker 1: switch that works on everyone, not even hypnosis. The CIA 10 00:00:46,600 --> 00:00:49,600 Speaker 1: tried to hypnotize people into becoming unwitting assassins in the 11 00:00:49,680 --> 00:00:51,800 Speaker 1: nineteen fifties and it totally didn't. 12 00:00:51,520 --> 00:00:56,360 Speaker 2: Work right Manchurian candidate stuff. But there is one school 13 00:00:56,440 --> 00:01:02,200 Speaker 2: that suggests hypnotic mind control is real, and that's the 14 00:01:02,280 --> 00:01:03,240 Speaker 2: pickup artists. 15 00:01:03,480 --> 00:01:06,160 Speaker 1: Yep, the get any woman to sleep with you speed 16 00:01:06,200 --> 00:01:07,000 Speaker 1: seduction guys. 17 00:01:07,400 --> 00:01:11,280 Speaker 2: Mm hmm. And get this, there's one pickup artist in 18 00:01:11,319 --> 00:01:14,880 Speaker 2: particular who got everything he knows from NLP. 19 00:01:15,520 --> 00:01:18,880 Speaker 3: I'm really good in inducing trans I could speak to 20 00:01:18,880 --> 00:01:21,320 Speaker 3: you in a way where I induced trans I will 21 00:01:21,360 --> 00:01:24,959 Speaker 3: not unless you give me your consent, because it's not 22 00:01:25,040 --> 00:01:25,720 Speaker 3: a toy. 23 00:01:26,120 --> 00:01:31,880 Speaker 2: Master hypnotist Ross jeffries here he is in two thousand, 24 00:01:32,160 --> 00:01:35,640 Speaker 2: prowling Marina Del Rey and Los Angeles with BBC correspondent 25 00:01:35,680 --> 00:01:36,400 Speaker 2: Louis Throux. 26 00:01:36,600 --> 00:01:38,679 Speaker 4: We know this is the Coffee Bean and Tea Lea 27 00:01:38,720 --> 00:01:40,600 Speaker 4: for one of the primal places in the Marina to 28 00:01:40,640 --> 00:01:41,320 Speaker 4: pick up women. 29 00:01:41,680 --> 00:01:44,000 Speaker 2: Ross says he prefers cafes like this to clubs or 30 00:01:44,040 --> 00:01:46,319 Speaker 2: bars because in clubs and bars. 31 00:01:46,360 --> 00:01:48,760 Speaker 4: Women are there to reject man and get free drinks. 32 00:01:48,920 --> 00:01:51,840 Speaker 4: I have to shout to be heard. It sucks, but 33 00:01:51,920 --> 00:01:54,600 Speaker 4: this is a nice, friendly place. People are off their guard. 34 00:01:54,760 --> 00:01:58,640 Speaker 2: You know, his targets have just finished work. They're relaxed 35 00:01:58,720 --> 00:02:01,160 Speaker 2: and down to chat. He zeros in on a blonde 36 00:02:01,160 --> 00:02:04,640 Speaker 2: woman with a nineties Meg Ryan style haircut sitting outside 37 00:02:04,680 --> 00:02:06,400 Speaker 2: having a coffee and cigarette with a friend. 38 00:02:06,600 --> 00:02:08,440 Speaker 5: No, I don't know many people. 39 00:02:08,440 --> 00:02:09,160 Speaker 6: I just moved here. 40 00:02:09,360 --> 00:02:12,520 Speaker 4: Yes, but you're from the Midwest. Yes, how could you 41 00:02:12,560 --> 00:02:14,680 Speaker 4: tell you're from Chicago or Wisconsin? 42 00:02:14,840 --> 00:02:15,320 Speaker 5: Detroit? 43 00:02:15,520 --> 00:02:18,200 Speaker 3: Detroit? But clothes huh? First of all, my name is Ross, 44 00:02:18,360 --> 00:02:19,240 Speaker 3: I'm Jen Okay. 45 00:02:19,480 --> 00:02:21,960 Speaker 2: As Ross schots her up, he slips into an empty chair, 46 00:02:22,400 --> 00:02:25,560 Speaker 2: not at her table, but just beside it. He sits 47 00:02:25,639 --> 00:02:29,240 Speaker 2: legs apart, confident but casual, turning slightly so he can 48 00:02:29,240 --> 00:02:33,720 Speaker 2: face her. Then he launches into a speed seduction pattern. 49 00:02:34,320 --> 00:02:36,079 Speaker 4: Okay, I'm gonna tell you something about yourself. 50 00:02:36,800 --> 00:02:41,880 Speaker 5: You make imagery in your mind, very very vividly. You're 51 00:02:41,919 --> 00:02:45,160 Speaker 5: a very vivid day dreamer. And in back, so you're 52 00:02:45,160 --> 00:02:45,920 Speaker 5: smiling because you know. 53 00:02:45,960 --> 00:02:46,359 Speaker 6: I'm right. 54 00:02:46,680 --> 00:02:49,480 Speaker 5: You can look at someone and they can think you're listening, 55 00:02:49,560 --> 00:02:52,640 Speaker 5: and usually you are listening. Okay, but if you're bored, 56 00:02:52,840 --> 00:02:55,120 Speaker 5: you can be looking right, athlete, and even though you're 57 00:02:55,160 --> 00:02:58,760 Speaker 5: looking right at this person, you could be a million 58 00:03:00,000 --> 00:03:07,400 Speaker 5: ailes away in your favorite ideal fantasy vacation spot. That's true, 59 00:03:08,160 --> 00:03:09,440 Speaker 5: You're right. 60 00:03:10,200 --> 00:03:13,480 Speaker 2: Notice how he keeps the language vague. He's not asking 61 00:03:13,520 --> 00:03:16,760 Speaker 2: her where that fantasy vacation spot is or what it's like. 62 00:03:17,480 --> 00:03:20,400 Speaker 2: He's just getting her to imagine it, to ease her 63 00:03:20,440 --> 00:03:21,799 Speaker 2: into a pleasurable state. 64 00:03:22,200 --> 00:03:25,000 Speaker 4: How do you know that I do a very rare, 65 00:03:25,720 --> 00:03:28,160 Speaker 4: very unusual, hardly anyone knows about. 66 00:03:28,200 --> 00:03:31,880 Speaker 5: It's a form of hypnosis that involves no sleep none. 67 00:03:32,080 --> 00:03:33,760 Speaker 4: I call it bliss gnosis. 68 00:03:34,200 --> 00:03:36,120 Speaker 2: The two chat a bit more, and then the show 69 00:03:36,120 --> 00:03:39,480 Speaker 2: cuts to Louie interviewing Ross and the woman Jen about 70 00:03:39,640 --> 00:03:40,640 Speaker 2: what just happened? 71 00:03:41,480 --> 00:03:43,040 Speaker 5: Did Ross just try and pick you up? 72 00:03:44,120 --> 00:03:45,960 Speaker 3: I didn't think of it as picking me up. 73 00:03:46,480 --> 00:03:48,840 Speaker 7: But we had a great conversation and we're going to 74 00:03:48,880 --> 00:03:49,760 Speaker 7: have coffee sometimes. 75 00:03:50,400 --> 00:03:52,600 Speaker 4: Did I understand about you on a much deeper level 76 00:03:52,640 --> 00:03:53,320 Speaker 4: than most people? 77 00:03:54,240 --> 00:03:54,440 Speaker 5: Yeah? 78 00:03:54,480 --> 00:03:55,119 Speaker 8: I felt it? 79 00:03:55,200 --> 00:03:57,240 Speaker 4: Yeah, and you know what? You know that feeling? 80 00:03:57,360 --> 00:03:57,560 Speaker 3: Right? 81 00:03:58,760 --> 00:04:02,320 Speaker 2: Just as Ross reminds her of that feeling, his voice 82 00:04:02,400 --> 00:04:06,760 Speaker 2: drops into a slow, deliberate tone. He starts running a 83 00:04:06,840 --> 00:04:11,560 Speaker 2: finger slowly up her arm towards her shoulder. Louis looks horrified. 84 00:04:12,320 --> 00:04:18,719 Speaker 3: Better, better, even better? Right now? 85 00:04:18,760 --> 00:04:19,600 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, yeah. 86 00:04:19,640 --> 00:04:21,760 Speaker 3: The more you focus on, the more intense the word. 87 00:04:24,360 --> 00:04:25,320 Speaker 2: Do you want to be on TV? 88 00:04:25,560 --> 00:04:26,279 Speaker 4: Does it feel good? 89 00:04:26,560 --> 00:04:26,719 Speaker 1: Is that? 90 00:04:26,760 --> 00:04:26,839 Speaker 3: What? 91 00:04:26,960 --> 00:04:28,640 Speaker 4: This is a balance on a scale of one to ten? 92 00:04:28,680 --> 00:04:29,520 Speaker 3: How good does it feel? 93 00:04:29,720 --> 00:04:30,600 Speaker 5: Are you? 94 00:04:30,839 --> 00:04:33,039 Speaker 3: Did you hear that? Did you hear that? 95 00:04:33,120 --> 00:04:34,320 Speaker 4: What do you do? 96 00:04:34,360 --> 00:04:36,480 Speaker 8: You work for an airline? Really? 97 00:04:36,960 --> 00:04:39,159 Speaker 4: And you're sure you're not just trying to be on TV? 98 00:04:39,400 --> 00:04:39,599 Speaker 9: Right? 99 00:04:39,920 --> 00:04:46,359 Speaker 5: No, he's just doing some voodoo on your Thank you 100 00:04:46,440 --> 00:04:47,200 Speaker 5: very much, Jenneva? 101 00:04:47,800 --> 00:04:48,719 Speaker 2: Later, bye? 102 00:04:51,000 --> 00:04:52,119 Speaker 4: Was that real? 103 00:04:52,320 --> 00:04:52,800 Speaker 3: Was that real? 104 00:04:52,839 --> 00:04:53,200 Speaker 10: Seriously? 105 00:04:53,200 --> 00:04:54,080 Speaker 7: It's totally real? 106 00:04:54,200 --> 00:04:54,360 Speaker 6: Then? 107 00:04:54,520 --> 00:04:56,200 Speaker 2: You know she doesn't want you to hypnotize. 108 00:04:56,480 --> 00:04:57,400 Speaker 3: I did hypnotize it. 109 00:05:01,320 --> 00:05:02,599 Speaker 9: Take a deep breath in. 110 00:05:09,800 --> 00:05:10,720 Speaker 3: And breathed out. 111 00:05:13,040 --> 00:05:15,880 Speaker 6: Your conscious mind is going to go totally away so 112 00:05:15,960 --> 00:05:18,560 Speaker 6: that I can speak for him and your unconscious mind. 113 00:05:18,800 --> 00:05:24,440 Speaker 2: You can notice that you feel rested, more alerted, confident. 114 00:05:26,720 --> 00:05:30,719 Speaker 2: From Kaleidoscope and iHeart Podcasts. This is episode seven of 115 00:05:30,800 --> 00:05:34,400 Speaker 2: mind Games. I'm Zoe la Scos, Ii'm Alice Hines. 116 00:05:37,760 --> 00:05:38,560 Speaker 8: You don't know how you did it. 117 00:05:38,760 --> 00:05:39,400 Speaker 6: You did you. 118 00:05:39,400 --> 00:05:44,560 Speaker 8: You're going to a little time to Starsian state, and 119 00:05:44,600 --> 00:05:45,160 Speaker 8: you're out of it. 120 00:05:47,960 --> 00:05:51,200 Speaker 1: When we left off our last episode, Richard Bandler had 121 00:05:51,240 --> 00:05:54,680 Speaker 1: just been acquitted of murder. People were wondering if you 122 00:05:54,720 --> 00:05:58,120 Speaker 1: could have hypnotized the jury or warped his friend James 123 00:05:58,160 --> 00:05:59,039 Speaker 1: Marino's mind. 124 00:05:59,640 --> 00:06:02,400 Speaker 2: Around the time Bandler walked free in nineteen eighty eight, 125 00:06:02,720 --> 00:06:05,800 Speaker 2: he got a new student who would take NLP into 126 00:06:05,839 --> 00:06:08,760 Speaker 2: the Internet age and spawn the pickup artist movement. 127 00:06:09,279 --> 00:06:12,200 Speaker 1: Okay, so for younger listeners, we should explain what the 128 00:06:12,240 --> 00:06:15,560 Speaker 1: fuck the pickup artist movement is. Here's how I figured 129 00:06:15,560 --> 00:06:17,599 Speaker 1: it out. So I was in high school in the 130 00:06:17,640 --> 00:06:20,400 Speaker 1: two thousands, and there was this best selling book called 131 00:06:20,440 --> 00:06:24,000 Speaker 1: The Game People's annoying. Older brothers were showing up at 132 00:06:24,000 --> 00:06:26,480 Speaker 1: parties and they were reading it and pretending they had 133 00:06:26,520 --> 00:06:28,799 Speaker 1: all these hacks to sleep with the hottest girls. 134 00:06:29,400 --> 00:06:32,280 Speaker 2: The game introduced readers to a bunch of guys intent 135 00:06:32,360 --> 00:06:35,760 Speaker 2: on restoring the natural order of the universe. You know, 136 00:06:35,960 --> 00:06:39,760 Speaker 2: where every man gets the babe harem he so rightly deserves. 137 00:06:40,360 --> 00:06:42,600 Speaker 1: Pickup artistry was a big deal in the nineties and 138 00:06:42,640 --> 00:06:46,320 Speaker 1: two thousands, in part because more women were supporting themselves 139 00:06:46,800 --> 00:06:49,200 Speaker 1: and some men felt like they were getting a raw deal. 140 00:06:49,920 --> 00:06:53,200 Speaker 1: The movement gained so much attention that major pop culture 141 00:06:53,240 --> 00:06:57,120 Speaker 1: reporters like the BBC's Louis Throux even profiled at stars. 142 00:06:57,960 --> 00:07:01,560 Speaker 2: There were economic reasons for this. The American dream was 143 00:07:01,800 --> 00:07:05,880 Speaker 2: falling apart. Guys couldn't just go and get manufacturing jobs 144 00:07:05,920 --> 00:07:09,040 Speaker 2: and support households with them like their dad's had. At 145 00:07:09,080 --> 00:07:13,320 Speaker 2: the same time, there was a huge backlash against feminism. 146 00:07:12,720 --> 00:07:16,080 Speaker 1: And so this guy, Ross Jeffries, was the provocative face 147 00:07:16,160 --> 00:07:18,200 Speaker 1: of the so called pickup artist movement. 148 00:07:18,960 --> 00:07:21,040 Speaker 2: Here he is on a major talk show of the day, 149 00:07:21,280 --> 00:07:22,679 Speaker 2: Wally George's Hot Seat. 150 00:07:22,920 --> 00:07:26,320 Speaker 8: For women, getting some is a choice. For men, getting 151 00:07:26,320 --> 00:07:29,200 Speaker 8: some is a choe. Oh if you don't recognize that 152 00:07:29,920 --> 00:07:31,240 Speaker 8: you're getting yes, your how are you? 153 00:07:31,480 --> 00:07:31,720 Speaker 2: Heay? 154 00:07:31,840 --> 00:07:35,400 Speaker 3: I have news for him, getting some is impossible. 155 00:07:38,400 --> 00:07:41,840 Speaker 2: Tom Cruise even played an alpha male seduction guru based 156 00:07:41,840 --> 00:07:44,800 Speaker 2: on Ross in the nineteen ninety nine movie Magnolia. 157 00:07:45,280 --> 00:07:53,200 Speaker 10: Respect the talk and tame the cunt. 158 00:07:57,000 --> 00:07:57,360 Speaker 3: Tame it. 159 00:07:58,160 --> 00:08:00,760 Speaker 1: This is from the nineties, but it's still so relevant. 160 00:08:01,160 --> 00:08:03,640 Speaker 1: Guys talk like that on the Internet today, like in 161 00:08:03,720 --> 00:08:06,920 Speaker 1: cells for instance. And then there's this so called alpha 162 00:08:06,960 --> 00:08:11,000 Speaker 1: influencers like Andrew Tate who somehow convinces men if they're misogynistic, 163 00:08:11,040 --> 00:08:12,160 Speaker 1: they'll also get rich. 164 00:08:13,080 --> 00:08:17,760 Speaker 2: Okay, brief science rant. It drives me completely bonkers, Alice, 165 00:08:17,800 --> 00:08:21,160 Speaker 2: how the manosphere uses the term alpha like it's a 166 00:08:21,240 --> 00:08:22,720 Speaker 2: real biological concept. 167 00:08:22,800 --> 00:08:23,680 Speaker 1: Wait, okay, so it's not. 168 00:08:24,120 --> 00:08:24,320 Speaker 8: No. 169 00:08:25,080 --> 00:08:27,760 Speaker 2: The idea that there are alpha wolves doming all the 170 00:08:27,840 --> 00:08:30,800 Speaker 2: beta wolves for the right to breed is total bs. 171 00:08:31,160 --> 00:08:34,319 Speaker 2: It was based on studies of wolves in captivity. Packs 172 00:08:34,360 --> 00:08:37,640 Speaker 2: in the wild are just families, like parents with kids. 173 00:08:38,160 --> 00:08:40,679 Speaker 2: The biologist who did most to popularize the idea of 174 00:08:40,760 --> 00:08:43,760 Speaker 2: alpha's in the nineteen seventies has even said he was 175 00:08:43,840 --> 00:08:47,680 Speaker 2: completely wrong about everything and has begged his publisher to 176 00:08:47,760 --> 00:08:48,959 Speaker 2: stop printing his book. 177 00:08:49,520 --> 00:08:52,360 Speaker 1: That's crazy, okay, but we're not here to talk about 178 00:08:52,400 --> 00:08:55,400 Speaker 1: all the absurd claims The manosphere makes about science and 179 00:08:55,440 --> 00:08:58,840 Speaker 1: what's quote unquote natural. We are here to talk about 180 00:08:58,880 --> 00:09:01,480 Speaker 1: pickup artists, though, and we want to use them as 181 00:09:01,520 --> 00:09:05,480 Speaker 1: a case study to figure out whether hypno NLP mind 182 00:09:05,559 --> 00:09:07,000 Speaker 1: control could. 183 00:09:06,840 --> 00:09:09,840 Speaker 2: Actually be real. Most of the people we've met so 184 00:09:09,920 --> 00:09:13,920 Speaker 2: far use NLP on willing subjects. You hire Richard Bandler 185 00:09:14,000 --> 00:09:17,360 Speaker 2: because you want him to reprogram your brain. You pay 186 00:09:17,520 --> 00:09:20,320 Speaker 2: gazillions of dollars to go see Tony Robbins because you 187 00:09:20,360 --> 00:09:23,280 Speaker 2: want to unlock all that unlimited power. Even if you 188 00:09:23,320 --> 00:09:26,040 Speaker 2: go to a car dealership and the salesman uses NLP 189 00:09:26,160 --> 00:09:29,560 Speaker 2: on you without you knowing, you're only there because you're 190 00:09:29,720 --> 00:09:31,360 Speaker 2: fundamentally open to buying a car. 191 00:09:32,120 --> 00:09:34,880 Speaker 1: But women don't go to coffee shops to get hypnotized 192 00:09:34,920 --> 00:09:36,720 Speaker 1: and creepily stroked on the arm. 193 00:09:37,040 --> 00:09:40,400 Speaker 2: Right, And this is what sets Ross Jeffrey's apart, the 194 00:09:40,480 --> 00:09:44,160 Speaker 2: idea that you can use these techniques on anyone anywhere. 195 00:09:44,840 --> 00:09:47,240 Speaker 2: I went to San Diego to find out how and 196 00:09:47,440 --> 00:09:50,080 Speaker 2: if it works good. 197 00:09:52,480 --> 00:09:56,000 Speaker 3: I hope you're not too jet lag. I hope you're ready, 198 00:09:56,360 --> 00:10:02,280 Speaker 3: as I'm coming loaded for bear and have all sorts 199 00:10:02,280 --> 00:10:08,080 Speaker 3: of sneaky covert NLP gypnotic tricks up my sleeve, Zoe, Zoe, 200 00:10:08,640 --> 00:10:10,199 Speaker 3: can't wait to see you there. 201 00:10:11,760 --> 00:10:16,120 Speaker 2: Before I met Ross, he sent me many, many voice memos. 202 00:10:16,840 --> 00:10:23,319 Speaker 9: The suffering of many men is inconceivable. I'm not putting 203 00:10:23,400 --> 00:10:26,200 Speaker 9: down how women suffered, how women are abused. 204 00:10:26,240 --> 00:10:28,920 Speaker 2: So full disclosure. Ross asked me to call him by 205 00:10:28,920 --> 00:10:32,560 Speaker 2: his civilian name, Paul, which I did when we were talking, 206 00:10:32,960 --> 00:10:36,679 Speaker 2: but because everyone knows him as Ross Jeffries, we're going 207 00:10:36,760 --> 00:10:39,160 Speaker 2: to use that for the rest of the episode. Sorry Paul, 208 00:10:39,480 --> 00:10:43,800 Speaker 2: Sorry Ross. These days, he's expanded his brand to include sales. 209 00:10:44,360 --> 00:10:48,600 Speaker 2: He's embraced vipassana meditation and builds himself as a healer 210 00:10:48,800 --> 00:10:50,199 Speaker 2: focused on men's pain. 211 00:10:51,400 --> 00:10:52,199 Speaker 3: But the paint of. 212 00:10:52,200 --> 00:10:56,040 Speaker 9: Man is shamed. They're not allowed to talk about it. 213 00:10:56,080 --> 00:10:59,080 Speaker 9: As he said, he can't talk to anyone about it. 214 00:10:59,120 --> 00:10:59,880 Speaker 9: He'd be shamed that. 215 00:11:01,160 --> 00:11:04,040 Speaker 2: Ross had just texted me a screenshot of something called 216 00:11:04,080 --> 00:11:08,760 Speaker 2: the Ross Jeffrey's Elite Student Mastermind Group. A man there 217 00:11:08,800 --> 00:11:11,160 Speaker 2: said he was a thirty one year old virgin who'd 218 00:11:11,160 --> 00:11:13,439 Speaker 2: been abused as a child, and that he had severe 219 00:11:13,480 --> 00:11:17,760 Speaker 2: exima all over his face and body. Speed seduction, he wrote, 220 00:11:17,880 --> 00:11:18,800 Speaker 2: had been a big help. 221 00:11:19,600 --> 00:11:24,040 Speaker 3: And so I send this to you because i't want 222 00:11:24,160 --> 00:11:27,800 Speaker 3: to share with you how I'd choke around and call 223 00:11:27,880 --> 00:11:29,560 Speaker 3: myself the Guru getting laid. 224 00:11:30,440 --> 00:11:34,240 Speaker 2: That's actually one of his more polite sobriquets. He's also 225 00:11:34,320 --> 00:11:37,000 Speaker 2: called himself the Guru of Gash. 226 00:11:37,520 --> 00:11:38,000 Speaker 9: I need a. 227 00:11:37,960 --> 00:11:42,199 Speaker 3: Vulgar language and stuff to attract attention. But I send 228 00:11:42,200 --> 00:11:42,559 Speaker 3: this to. 229 00:11:42,520 --> 00:11:46,520 Speaker 9: You in the hope that you paint me in a 230 00:11:46,559 --> 00:11:49,880 Speaker 9: fair light, because if you don't, the people who need 231 00:11:49,880 --> 00:11:52,480 Speaker 9: that help will never reach out for it. 232 00:11:53,840 --> 00:11:56,120 Speaker 2: Ross was worried I'd drag him through the mud, which 233 00:11:56,160 --> 00:11:59,120 Speaker 2: is a reasonable concern because a lot of women hate 234 00:11:59,160 --> 00:12:05,800 Speaker 2: Himsti Ross Jeffrey's persona. These days, Ross's in his late 235 00:12:05,880 --> 00:12:10,280 Speaker 2: sixties with short, curly white hair, mustache, and beard. When 236 00:12:10,320 --> 00:12:13,320 Speaker 2: we met, he was wearing a purple button down under 237 00:12:13,320 --> 00:12:17,559 Speaker 2: a plum colored blazer, which honestly felt like an NLP 238 00:12:17,720 --> 00:12:22,080 Speaker 2: deep cut Big deal. Hypnotherapist Milton Erickson or a lot 239 00:12:22,120 --> 00:12:26,000 Speaker 2: of purple and Ericson is one of Ross's all time heroes. 240 00:12:27,200 --> 00:12:30,280 Speaker 2: Ross's polarizing persona was born in the late nineteen eighties. 241 00:12:30,760 --> 00:12:33,280 Speaker 2: At the time, Ross was a failed comedy writer living 242 00:12:33,320 --> 00:12:36,439 Speaker 2: in Los Angeles, furious with all the women who wouldn't 243 00:12:36,440 --> 00:12:37,240 Speaker 2: sleep with him. 244 00:12:37,640 --> 00:12:42,760 Speaker 3: I was very awkward, socially backward, was unattractive, or at 245 00:12:42,840 --> 00:12:45,400 Speaker 3: least I thought I was. And what you project is 246 00:12:45,400 --> 00:12:49,360 Speaker 3: what people see. I didn't have social skills, and I 247 00:12:49,440 --> 00:12:52,120 Speaker 3: was not brought up in a family where those were 248 00:12:52,120 --> 00:12:56,000 Speaker 3: emphasized or modeled or taught. And I certainly didn't have 249 00:12:56,040 --> 00:12:57,520 Speaker 3: any skills in attracting women. 250 00:12:57,600 --> 00:13:02,640 Speaker 2: Again, no skills until he discovered NLP. He was browsing 251 00:13:02,640 --> 00:13:05,800 Speaker 2: at a bookstore when he felt an almost mystical pull. 252 00:13:06,400 --> 00:13:10,800 Speaker 3: And however improbable this may seem. And use your adult 253 00:13:10,840 --> 00:13:15,000 Speaker 3: ability to tell when someone's bullshitting you. You're an experienced journalist, 254 00:13:15,040 --> 00:13:19,480 Speaker 3: and this is what happened. My hand floated up and 255 00:13:19,520 --> 00:13:23,480 Speaker 3: I grabbed a book and it said Frogs into Princes 256 00:13:24,200 --> 00:13:28,160 Speaker 3: Richard Bandler and John Grinder live. I thought, oh, okay, 257 00:13:28,160 --> 00:13:30,920 Speaker 3: I'll give this a shot. Why not. I recalled distinctly 258 00:13:31,120 --> 00:13:34,959 Speaker 3: sitting down on the floor of that bookstore and flipping 259 00:13:35,000 --> 00:13:39,000 Speaker 3: through it and thinking, Oh, that's interesting, huh, that's uh, 260 00:13:39,000 --> 00:13:41,240 Speaker 3: oh wow, this is amazing. 261 00:13:42,120 --> 00:13:45,840 Speaker 2: Frogs Into Princes wasn't about getting laid. It was the 262 00:13:45,880 --> 00:13:49,920 Speaker 2: first approachable, not to jargony book from NLP co founders 263 00:13:50,200 --> 00:13:53,360 Speaker 2: Richard Bandler and John Grinder. It came out in nineteen 264 00:13:53,400 --> 00:13:56,440 Speaker 2: seventy nine with a psychedelic fantasy prince on the cover 265 00:13:56,880 --> 00:13:58,960 Speaker 2: and got a ton of people hooked on NLP. 266 00:14:00,240 --> 00:14:05,679 Speaker 3: Ross. The book revealed Erickson's conversational model, where it's completely 267 00:14:06,240 --> 00:14:08,920 Speaker 3: a matter of what appears to be a conversation, but 268 00:14:09,000 --> 00:14:14,000 Speaker 3: it has presuppositions and has metaphors. It has stories that 269 00:14:14,240 --> 00:14:18,240 Speaker 3: immediately struck me as something of incredible power, and I 270 00:14:18,280 --> 00:14:20,920 Speaker 3: began to see how I can use that in conversations 271 00:14:20,960 --> 00:14:25,360 Speaker 3: with women to engineer states of emotion, which to me 272 00:14:25,480 --> 00:14:28,240 Speaker 3: is what it's all about. It's about engineering consciousness. 273 00:14:29,000 --> 00:14:31,560 Speaker 2: Ross read every scrap of NLP literature he could get 274 00:14:31,560 --> 00:14:34,640 Speaker 2: his hands on. Around nineteen eighty eight, he attended a 275 00:14:34,640 --> 00:14:38,000 Speaker 2: seminar with Richard Bandler and another hypnotist named Don Wolfe 276 00:14:38,000 --> 00:14:41,400 Speaker 2: in San Diego. Don gave him a hypnotic command to 277 00:14:41,480 --> 00:14:46,320 Speaker 2: call Bandler an asshole anytime Bandler said Manuel Noriega. I 278 00:14:46,360 --> 00:14:50,600 Speaker 2: guess Bandler was into talking about Panamanian dictators, because sure 279 00:14:50,680 --> 00:14:52,560 Speaker 2: enough he said the name, and I. 280 00:14:52,520 --> 00:14:55,680 Speaker 3: Remember jumping up and calling him an asshole. And he 281 00:14:55,760 --> 00:14:58,960 Speaker 3: came over to me and threatened to throllow me, and 282 00:14:59,000 --> 00:15:03,760 Speaker 3: then something ha happened that I don't remember. Apparently Richard 283 00:15:03,800 --> 00:15:06,840 Speaker 3: took me backstage and hypnotized me and told me that 284 00:15:06,960 --> 00:15:09,880 Speaker 3: I was going to take NLP in a completely new direction, 285 00:15:10,080 --> 00:15:10,840 Speaker 3: innovate with it. 286 00:15:11,560 --> 00:15:14,000 Speaker 1: Oh my god, he did it. He just said new 287 00:15:14,080 --> 00:15:20,160 Speaker 1: direction or nude erection. Ugh, that's like this pig of artistism. 288 00:15:20,480 --> 00:15:24,720 Speaker 1: It's a sneaky command to imagine boners, which supposedly gets 289 00:15:24,800 --> 00:15:27,640 Speaker 1: you interested in people, though I honestly don't know if 290 00:15:27,680 --> 00:15:28,240 Speaker 1: that works at all. 291 00:15:28,280 --> 00:15:32,320 Speaker 2: You don't feel it, Alice, irresistible image of a boner. 292 00:15:32,480 --> 00:15:36,160 Speaker 2: It's not working on you. No, huh weird. Well, this 293 00:15:36,240 --> 00:15:47,680 Speaker 2: and more hypnotic speed seduction tactics. After the break, reading 294 00:15:47,720 --> 00:15:50,760 Speaker 2: his books and watching his videos, I couldn't help feeling like, 295 00:15:51,040 --> 00:15:54,000 Speaker 2: once you cut through the cringe marketing, a lot of 296 00:15:54,080 --> 00:15:59,479 Speaker 2: Ross Jeffreys's speed seduction tactics are just basic social skills. 297 00:16:00,000 --> 00:16:04,240 Speaker 2: Among other radical strategies, Ross recommends asking women questions about 298 00:16:04,240 --> 00:16:08,120 Speaker 2: themselves and actually listening to what they have to say. 299 00:16:09,000 --> 00:16:11,600 Speaker 2: Here he is demonstrating on a woman named Barbara for 300 00:16:11,680 --> 00:16:13,880 Speaker 2: a crowd of men in a video someone posted on 301 00:16:13,960 --> 00:16:15,240 Speaker 2: YouTube in twenty twenty. 302 00:16:15,680 --> 00:16:17,160 Speaker 8: So let me ask you, do you mind. If I 303 00:16:17,200 --> 00:16:19,080 Speaker 8: ask what do you do for a living? Sure, I'm 304 00:16:20,200 --> 00:16:24,400 Speaker 8: I'm a writer an author. Ah okay cool, And now 305 00:16:25,200 --> 00:16:27,600 Speaker 8: my response is one of genuine curiosity because I like 306 00:16:27,640 --> 00:16:29,600 Speaker 8: creative people. This is not fained. I really enjoy it. 307 00:16:29,680 --> 00:16:32,600 Speaker 8: Let me ask you a question. I know as a 308 00:16:32,600 --> 00:16:35,400 Speaker 8: writer people face certain challenges. There's always a challenge of 309 00:16:35,440 --> 00:16:37,000 Speaker 8: selling your work and all that other stuff. 310 00:16:37,040 --> 00:16:37,360 Speaker 7: Amen. 311 00:16:37,560 --> 00:16:40,480 Speaker 8: Amen to that. So I'm getting some rapport. I'm pacing 312 00:16:40,520 --> 00:16:45,040 Speaker 8: her world by demonstrating verbal understanding. I demonstrate understanding, so 313 00:16:45,080 --> 00:16:45,680 Speaker 8: I get rapport. 314 00:16:46,080 --> 00:16:50,880 Speaker 2: But other more sophisticated techniques involve hypnosis, speed seduction. Newbies 315 00:16:50,960 --> 00:16:54,160 Speaker 2: learn scripted stories and language patterns designed to elicit certain 316 00:16:54,200 --> 00:16:58,640 Speaker 2: reactions like arousal and trust. The whole idea is that 317 00:16:58,680 --> 00:17:01,240 Speaker 2: you can use NLP to change your own emotional state 318 00:17:01,800 --> 00:17:03,440 Speaker 2: and that of your prospects. 319 00:17:04,240 --> 00:17:06,160 Speaker 8: If I said if I wanted to create a data 320 00:17:06,200 --> 00:17:08,040 Speaker 8: fascination with Barbara, and I looked at her and said, 321 00:17:08,080 --> 00:17:10,960 Speaker 8: you will be fascinated with me. You will hang on 322 00:17:11,040 --> 00:17:12,919 Speaker 8: every word and it'll laugh at me. 323 00:17:13,040 --> 00:17:13,440 Speaker 3: Okay. 324 00:17:14,200 --> 00:17:16,600 Speaker 8: Now I could try to create a fascination by saying, 325 00:17:16,880 --> 00:17:20,800 Speaker 8: every been really really intrigued by someone? You ever meet 326 00:17:20,840 --> 00:17:23,320 Speaker 8: someone like a teacher who is just You knew that 327 00:17:23,400 --> 00:17:27,040 Speaker 8: this person had such a passion for what they were 328 00:17:27,080 --> 00:17:33,480 Speaker 8: doing that everything they said painted vivid mental images in 329 00:17:33,520 --> 00:17:37,800 Speaker 8: your mind. Their words were guides to your own experience. 330 00:17:37,840 --> 00:17:39,600 Speaker 2: So with each word, you are interesting. 331 00:17:40,200 --> 00:17:44,359 Speaker 1: So Ross is trying to get you to daydream, so 332 00:17:44,440 --> 00:17:46,600 Speaker 1: you lose track of what you're doing in the conversation, 333 00:17:47,200 --> 00:17:49,880 Speaker 1: or maybe that you're trying to exit this conversation. 334 00:17:50,520 --> 00:17:53,600 Speaker 2: Ross broke down methods like this for me during his interview. 335 00:17:54,160 --> 00:17:56,919 Speaker 3: What's the technique? Well, let me give you the principles 336 00:17:56,960 --> 00:18:01,160 Speaker 3: behind it. First and foremost, I believe that any kind 337 00:18:01,560 --> 00:18:04,760 Speaker 3: of persuasion, whether it's a sale, whether it's an interview, 338 00:18:04,800 --> 00:18:08,639 Speaker 3: whether it's a seduction, the currency of any of that 339 00:18:08,800 --> 00:18:15,640 Speaker 3: is focus. If a person can't focus deeply on what 340 00:18:15,680 --> 00:18:18,760 Speaker 3: it is you're listening to, and that smile only means 341 00:18:18,800 --> 00:18:23,480 Speaker 3: that a deeper and more exploratory part of your mind 342 00:18:23,680 --> 00:18:27,600 Speaker 3: is responding in a way where you didn't expect anyway. 343 00:18:27,680 --> 00:18:31,680 Speaker 3: So you need to create focus. And after focus, it's 344 00:18:31,720 --> 00:18:34,440 Speaker 3: a matter what states of consciousness do you want that 345 00:18:34,480 --> 00:18:37,320 Speaker 3: person in. There's all sorts of ways to evoke these states. 346 00:18:37,440 --> 00:18:40,720 Speaker 2: I'm going to jump in, so when you slow down 347 00:18:40,760 --> 00:18:44,200 Speaker 2: your voice and do hypne Paul speak. Is that supposed 348 00:18:44,200 --> 00:18:45,360 Speaker 2: to be putting me in a transfer? 349 00:18:45,560 --> 00:18:48,520 Speaker 3: I'm leaning into it so you can see it. I 350 00:18:48,560 --> 00:18:51,480 Speaker 3: would normally never be this overt about it. It would 351 00:18:51,480 --> 00:18:52,040 Speaker 3: be covert. 352 00:18:52,640 --> 00:18:57,280 Speaker 2: What okay, give me the same line, but covert mode. 353 00:18:57,600 --> 00:19:00,399 Speaker 3: Covert, Well, you're expecting it. 354 00:19:01,119 --> 00:19:03,640 Speaker 2: No, I mean, this is such an artificial situation. We've 355 00:19:03,640 --> 00:19:05,000 Speaker 2: got folks in the other room. 356 00:19:05,359 --> 00:19:07,959 Speaker 3: There's all sorts of ways to evoke these states, okay. 357 00:19:08,400 --> 00:19:10,560 Speaker 3: For example, some of them have to do with the 358 00:19:10,600 --> 00:19:14,280 Speaker 3: kinds of questions you ask. I teach my students do 359 00:19:14,359 --> 00:19:18,680 Speaker 3: not use fact based conversations. For example, if I said 360 00:19:18,720 --> 00:19:21,200 Speaker 3: to you, if we were on a date and I said, 361 00:19:21,320 --> 00:19:23,720 Speaker 3: what do you like to do for fun? Everyone asked that. 362 00:19:24,160 --> 00:19:26,280 Speaker 3: But if I ask, what's something you always dreamed of 363 00:19:26,400 --> 00:19:30,200 Speaker 3: doing fantasized about doing? But have them let yourself there? 364 00:19:32,480 --> 00:19:35,800 Speaker 3: That requires an answer from a different part of your consciousness. 365 00:19:36,000 --> 00:19:38,200 Speaker 3: It has to activate your You have to activate your 366 00:19:38,200 --> 00:19:42,800 Speaker 3: imagination and your emotions to answer the question. That's not 367 00:19:42,880 --> 00:19:45,439 Speaker 3: a seduction in and of itself, but it's the start 368 00:19:45,560 --> 00:19:48,440 Speaker 3: of getting leverage into that part of your consciousness. 369 00:19:49,720 --> 00:19:52,080 Speaker 2: Another way to gain that leverage is through a hypnotic 370 00:19:52,119 --> 00:19:56,560 Speaker 2: technique called a pattern interrupt, basically purposely derailing a conversation. 371 00:19:57,640 --> 00:19:59,760 Speaker 2: See if you can catch the way Ross does it 372 00:20:00,320 --> 00:20:04,560 Speaker 2: during our interview. So, when you were teaching seminars still 373 00:20:05,200 --> 00:20:09,280 Speaker 2: and you were promoting them in the ineffable way you did, 374 00:20:09,640 --> 00:20:13,920 Speaker 2: were you ever concerned that the crassness and the vulgarity 375 00:20:14,720 --> 00:20:19,240 Speaker 2: of the Ross Jeffreys ad copy would lure people who 376 00:20:19,359 --> 00:20:24,639 Speaker 2: had dark intentions to your seminars and maybe even alienated 377 00:20:24,800 --> 00:20:27,240 Speaker 2: dudes in need who were kind of turned off by 378 00:20:27,960 --> 00:20:29,480 Speaker 2: the sexist pattern. 379 00:20:30,400 --> 00:20:35,840 Speaker 3: Crass Interjecting your personal opinion into objective journalism, now that's crass. 380 00:20:36,680 --> 00:20:41,400 Speaker 3: Now that's an NLP technique called reflexively apply to the speaker. 381 00:20:41,560 --> 00:20:44,800 Speaker 3: I took your term and I reflexibly applied it to. 382 00:20:44,760 --> 00:20:48,520 Speaker 2: You, and that is supposed to make me feel how it's. 383 00:20:48,400 --> 00:20:52,240 Speaker 3: A minor pattern interrupt Now your very experienced. It's not 384 00:20:52,280 --> 00:20:54,720 Speaker 3: going to do jackshit with you. But it's a way 385 00:20:54,760 --> 00:20:57,280 Speaker 3: of diverting. But more importantly, it's interrupting the pattern. 386 00:20:58,240 --> 00:21:01,639 Speaker 1: Okay, so he's like trying to create confusion, which is 387 00:21:01,680 --> 00:21:04,560 Speaker 1: supposed to derail your interview, and I guess make you 388 00:21:04,640 --> 00:21:06,359 Speaker 1: forget what you were going to ask him about. 389 00:21:06,960 --> 00:21:10,000 Speaker 2: Yes, and then you use that fleeting moment of what 390 00:21:10,040 --> 00:21:12,600 Speaker 2: the fuck to establish a new power dynamic. 391 00:21:12,960 --> 00:21:16,760 Speaker 1: I've seen Richard Bandler doing really similar things, and honestly, 392 00:21:16,800 --> 00:21:19,040 Speaker 1: I think he does it even better than Ross Jeffries. 393 00:21:19,560 --> 00:21:22,320 Speaker 1: Check out this DVD called The Art and Science of 394 00:21:22,400 --> 00:21:26,359 Speaker 1: Nested Loops from two thousand and three. Bamdler's describing watching 395 00:21:26,359 --> 00:21:27,640 Speaker 1: someone from across the room. 396 00:21:28,040 --> 00:21:30,320 Speaker 10: If you see a woman and you're really interested in her, 397 00:21:30,760 --> 00:21:32,880 Speaker 10: you can try to work up the courage to walk over, 398 00:21:33,320 --> 00:21:33,920 Speaker 10: or you can go. 399 00:21:34,040 --> 00:21:37,919 Speaker 1: Like this, Bandler waves his hand like he's beckoning a 400 00:21:37,960 --> 00:21:38,520 Speaker 1: woman over. 401 00:21:40,240 --> 00:21:43,439 Speaker 10: It's easier, and she'll come over and go yes, and 402 00:21:43,440 --> 00:21:46,959 Speaker 10: you go did you want something? Did you want something? 403 00:21:49,000 --> 00:21:50,280 Speaker 10: Did you want something? 404 00:21:50,560 --> 00:21:52,640 Speaker 1: He makes it seem like she was the one who 405 00:21:52,640 --> 00:21:56,480 Speaker 1: wanted something, not him, which I can honestly see working. 406 00:21:56,800 --> 00:22:00,520 Speaker 1: He's creating an opening for conversation through disorder orientation. 407 00:22:01,160 --> 00:22:04,480 Speaker 2: Pattern interrupts are subtle, but that's what makes them disconcerting, 408 00:22:04,960 --> 00:22:08,560 Speaker 2: The idea that merely by interrupting you or saying something 409 00:22:08,560 --> 00:22:12,200 Speaker 2: that doesn't quite make sense, someone can capitalize on your confusion. 410 00:22:12,920 --> 00:22:16,919 Speaker 3: There's no distinction in my mind, between shifting someone's consciousness 411 00:22:17,359 --> 00:22:21,920 Speaker 3: unexpectedly and a hypnotic technique. If I created a confusion 412 00:22:22,080 --> 00:22:26,560 Speaker 3: by giving you an unexpected response, it creates a temporary 413 00:22:26,640 --> 00:22:30,040 Speaker 3: what I would call a mind stutter, a little pause 414 00:22:30,040 --> 00:22:33,960 Speaker 3: in your conscious mind, and it creates a window of suggestibility, 415 00:22:34,119 --> 00:22:36,840 Speaker 3: just a little one, not a deep trance where you're 416 00:22:36,920 --> 00:22:40,320 Speaker 3: out and I can do surgery on you. But it's 417 00:22:40,520 --> 00:22:43,160 Speaker 3: the start of getting leverage into here on conscious mind. 418 00:22:43,880 --> 00:22:46,680 Speaker 2: Once you have that leverage, you can establish an anchor 419 00:22:46,960 --> 00:22:50,720 Speaker 2: or embed a command NLP tactics we've encountered before. 420 00:22:51,160 --> 00:22:53,480 Speaker 1: And anchoring is what happened in that clip you heard 421 00:22:53,480 --> 00:22:57,840 Speaker 1: at the beginning of the episode. Better Better when Ross 422 00:22:58,000 --> 00:23:00,439 Speaker 1: ran his finger up that woman's own or I'm at 423 00:23:00,440 --> 00:23:01,440 Speaker 1: the coffee shop. 424 00:23:02,720 --> 00:23:04,920 Speaker 3: Even better right now? Oh yeah, yeah. 425 00:23:06,800 --> 00:23:09,960 Speaker 2: It takes finesse. You can't just abruptly start stroking people. 426 00:23:10,359 --> 00:23:16,040 Speaker 2: You've got to be smooth. There are some techniques like 427 00:23:16,160 --> 00:23:19,040 Speaker 2: anchoring that get used in various different ways. I mean 428 00:23:19,080 --> 00:23:23,400 Speaker 2: to help people anchor positive feelings about themselves, for instance, 429 00:23:23,800 --> 00:23:27,320 Speaker 2: but also used out in the field on women. Can 430 00:23:27,359 --> 00:23:31,879 Speaker 2: you talk about using ink women with women? Okay, it's collaborative, collaborative, 431 00:23:31,960 --> 00:23:34,240 Speaker 2: it's a party. It's participatory. 432 00:23:34,640 --> 00:23:36,840 Speaker 3: How do you use You say that with irony and 433 00:23:36,840 --> 00:23:40,000 Speaker 3: a little sarcasm in your voice, But well that we'll 434 00:23:40,080 --> 00:23:41,159 Speaker 3: take it as given. 435 00:23:41,000 --> 00:23:44,000 Speaker 2: Proof be wrong. Tell me about how you would use. 436 00:23:43,920 --> 00:23:46,840 Speaker 3: Anchoring anything, but okay, tell. 437 00:23:46,640 --> 00:23:48,200 Speaker 2: Me how you would use anchoring. 438 00:23:48,840 --> 00:23:50,400 Speaker 3: My voice is my anchor. 439 00:23:50,480 --> 00:23:51,320 Speaker 2: Your voice is your anchor. 440 00:23:51,400 --> 00:23:53,600 Speaker 3: I have a very distinctive voice, So if I wanted 441 00:23:53,600 --> 00:23:56,520 Speaker 3: to anchor, I just slightly speak just a little softer. 442 00:23:57,960 --> 00:24:01,960 Speaker 3: When I want to give commands and suggestions, I'd just 443 00:24:02,000 --> 00:24:04,840 Speaker 3: be a little softer. I'm leaning on it so they 444 00:24:04,880 --> 00:24:07,080 Speaker 3: can hear it at home. So if I ever give 445 00:24:07,119 --> 00:24:11,000 Speaker 3: you commands or suggestions to describe by ideal vacation, I 446 00:24:11,000 --> 00:24:17,320 Speaker 3: would anchor using my voice. I would say, do you 447 00:24:17,440 --> 00:24:21,200 Speaker 3: like to travel? Debbie? Really tell me about your ideal 448 00:24:21,240 --> 00:24:24,560 Speaker 3: travel spot. I'd let her speak and really listen, and 449 00:24:24,600 --> 00:24:26,640 Speaker 3: I'd say, well, I don't know how well you can 450 00:24:26,800 --> 00:24:30,320 Speaker 3: imagine this as I describe it. That's a command to 451 00:24:30,400 --> 00:24:33,360 Speaker 3: imagine what I'm about to describe. 452 00:24:34,280 --> 00:24:37,720 Speaker 2: Here's the idea. Because those words are subtly set off, 453 00:24:38,040 --> 00:24:41,080 Speaker 2: the brain absorbs them differently than everything else in the sentence. 454 00:24:41,520 --> 00:24:44,000 Speaker 3: It processes it outside of conscious awareness. 455 00:24:45,280 --> 00:24:48,679 Speaker 2: Ross admits his techniques don't work on every woman, but 456 00:24:48,760 --> 00:24:51,000 Speaker 2: he says they work most of the time, well enough 457 00:24:51,000 --> 00:24:53,240 Speaker 2: to have inspired a host of imitators. 458 00:24:53,600 --> 00:24:55,440 Speaker 1: Are you familiar with nagging, Zoe. 459 00:24:56,000 --> 00:24:59,000 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's not a ross thing, but it's probably the 460 00:24:59,040 --> 00:25:02,800 Speaker 2: most notorious pick artist trek right. It's when you insult 461 00:25:02,800 --> 00:25:05,760 Speaker 2: a woman in a supposedly playful way to make your 462 00:25:05,800 --> 00:25:09,080 Speaker 2: self conscious, like, oh, it's so cute, how your teeth 463 00:25:09,119 --> 00:25:11,040 Speaker 2: are a little crooked. Yeah, yeah, that's it. 464 00:25:11,440 --> 00:25:13,960 Speaker 1: So you might have experienced this and maybe it worked 465 00:25:13,960 --> 00:25:16,800 Speaker 1: on you, maybe it didn't. I've been trying to figure 466 00:25:16,840 --> 00:25:21,320 Speaker 1: out if negging is NLP. We don't know exactly where 467 00:25:21,320 --> 00:25:24,359 Speaker 1: it's inventor who was a different pickup artist got it from. 468 00:25:25,000 --> 00:25:28,760 Speaker 1: But I did find Bandler talking about using something similar 469 00:25:28,800 --> 00:25:33,199 Speaker 1: with clients. It's from this tape called Creating Therapeutic Change 470 00:25:33,320 --> 00:25:34,480 Speaker 1: from nineteen eighty seven. 471 00:25:34,760 --> 00:25:37,080 Speaker 6: In fact, typically I like to embarrass them once and 472 00:25:37,200 --> 00:25:41,200 Speaker 6: anchor it because one of the things about being embarrassed 473 00:25:41,320 --> 00:25:43,679 Speaker 6: is it is one of the forms of unfamiliarness that 474 00:25:43,800 --> 00:25:47,040 Speaker 6: allows people to escape the traditional ways that they act. 475 00:25:48,200 --> 00:25:49,439 Speaker 2: Alice, do you think that works? 476 00:25:50,000 --> 00:25:52,840 Speaker 1: I think megging does and doesn't work like it wouldn't 477 00:25:52,880 --> 00:25:55,159 Speaker 1: work on me, but I think it could work on 478 00:25:55,200 --> 00:25:58,840 Speaker 1: someone who is maybe like quite young, or for some 479 00:25:58,960 --> 00:26:01,159 Speaker 1: reason is in a vulnera place in their life and 480 00:26:01,280 --> 00:26:04,880 Speaker 1: is looking for approval. Someone who's nag could then be 481 00:26:05,040 --> 00:26:08,120 Speaker 1: like hooked because they're waiting for that compliment that was withheld. 482 00:26:08,480 --> 00:26:11,080 Speaker 2: Iye buy that it's kind of a diagnostic tool for 483 00:26:11,160 --> 00:26:13,399 Speaker 2: pickup artists to see if the person they're talking to 484 00:26:13,960 --> 00:26:26,440 Speaker 2: is seeking validation from someone else. So, Alice, I've obviously 485 00:26:26,480 --> 00:26:29,480 Speaker 2: been thinking a lot about seduction while doing this reporting, 486 00:26:29,920 --> 00:26:32,480 Speaker 2: and I had a kind of disturbing thought the other day. 487 00:26:33,080 --> 00:26:35,879 Speaker 2: I think journalists might have more in common with pickup 488 00:26:35,960 --> 00:26:37,600 Speaker 2: artists than we'd like to admit. 489 00:26:38,240 --> 00:26:40,440 Speaker 1: I mean absolutely, I've been thinking about the same thing 490 00:26:40,440 --> 00:26:44,000 Speaker 1: throughout this whole podcast. And I would use Richard Bandler's 491 00:26:44,040 --> 00:26:47,080 Speaker 1: beckoning trick to approach someone at a conference who might 492 00:26:47,119 --> 00:26:49,520 Speaker 1: otherwise try to avoid me if I came on directly. 493 00:26:49,960 --> 00:26:52,679 Speaker 2: That's a good one. And I mean it's been said before, 494 00:26:52,800 --> 00:26:56,280 Speaker 2: right like everyone got super Pearl Clutchy when Janet Malcolm, 495 00:26:56,320 --> 00:26:59,920 Speaker 2: the New Yorker staff writer, famously described the journalistic process 496 00:27:00,080 --> 00:27:04,320 Speaker 2: as seduction and betrayal. But I think she's dead on, Like, 497 00:27:04,400 --> 00:27:07,360 Speaker 2: when we do interviews, the whole point is to put 498 00:27:07,400 --> 00:27:10,119 Speaker 2: people at ease and charm them and get them to 499 00:27:10,160 --> 00:27:12,800 Speaker 2: tell us stuff they don't consciously want to say. It 500 00:27:12,840 --> 00:27:13,400 Speaker 2: makes me go. 501 00:27:13,440 --> 00:27:15,399 Speaker 1: Back to the question we raised at the beginning of 502 00:27:15,400 --> 00:27:19,320 Speaker 1: the episode, like is mind control real? Is it actually 503 00:27:19,359 --> 00:27:23,480 Speaker 1: possible to hypnotically manipulate someone covertly and get them to 504 00:27:23,480 --> 00:27:25,120 Speaker 1: do something they wouldn't otherwise do. 505 00:27:26,160 --> 00:27:30,200 Speaker 2: Okay, So no, I don't think it's possible to hypnotically 506 00:27:30,240 --> 00:27:33,199 Speaker 2: make someone a mindless puppet. But I do think we 507 00:27:33,240 --> 00:27:38,800 Speaker 2: are being manipulated all the time covertly by advertising, by politicians, 508 00:27:39,359 --> 00:27:42,200 Speaker 2: And it really just depends on how you define trance 509 00:27:42,520 --> 00:27:44,240 Speaker 2: or how you define persuasion. 510 00:27:44,880 --> 00:27:48,920 Speaker 1: One definition is that all communication is persuasion or manipulation. 511 00:27:49,600 --> 00:27:52,800 Speaker 1: You're changing someone's emotional state when you tell an exciting 512 00:27:52,840 --> 00:27:56,679 Speaker 1: story or a scary story. Think of the score of 513 00:27:56,720 --> 00:28:17,000 Speaker 1: a movie or a podcast, suspense, romance, tragedy, curious, scientific, investigatory. 514 00:28:17,040 --> 00:28:20,399 Speaker 1: This all manipulates your emotions in a certain way, and 515 00:28:20,440 --> 00:28:23,800 Speaker 1: perhaps by becoming more aware of the power dynamics that 516 00:28:23,840 --> 00:28:28,560 Speaker 1: are inherently part of everyday interactions, anyone can gain them. 517 00:28:29,480 --> 00:28:33,120 Speaker 2: And everyone can become Ross Jeffries. We're all pickup artists. 518 00:28:33,280 --> 00:28:37,560 Speaker 1: Yay, okay, but reality check, I do not know how 519 00:28:37,600 --> 00:28:39,880 Speaker 1: to hypnotize people, even when I'm really on fire in 520 00:28:39,880 --> 00:28:40,520 Speaker 1: an interview. 521 00:28:40,800 --> 00:28:43,760 Speaker 2: Same unfortunately, unless I'm doing it unconsciously. 522 00:28:44,000 --> 00:28:45,040 Speaker 1: But I don't think I am. 523 00:28:45,200 --> 00:28:47,880 Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't sell yourself short kid. I did ask 524 00:28:47,960 --> 00:28:49,920 Speaker 2: Ross about this though. I asked him to do a 525 00:28:49,960 --> 00:28:52,680 Speaker 2: demo at the end of our interview, and what he 526 00:28:52,880 --> 00:28:57,680 Speaker 2: said actually felt key to understanding how cover manipulation actually works. 527 00:28:58,480 --> 00:29:00,840 Speaker 2: Can you sort of break down some of the techniques 528 00:29:00,880 --> 00:29:01,600 Speaker 2: that you were using? 529 00:29:01,640 --> 00:29:04,440 Speaker 3: Love it. I gave you the pre talk. I said, 530 00:29:04,480 --> 00:29:06,240 Speaker 3: you're not going to go to sleep, You're not going 531 00:29:06,240 --> 00:29:09,200 Speaker 3: to quack like a duck. Then I gave you something 532 00:29:09,280 --> 00:29:13,640 Speaker 3: called permissive hypnosis. I didn't say you're going to listen 533 00:29:13,640 --> 00:29:16,360 Speaker 3: to every word I say, then you'll just go to sleep. 534 00:29:16,360 --> 00:29:18,560 Speaker 3: I said, you can listen to every word I say, 535 00:29:18,600 --> 00:29:19,600 Speaker 3: and you don't have to. 536 00:29:20,840 --> 00:29:23,080 Speaker 2: So what kinds of conditions are you creating with those? 537 00:29:23,200 --> 00:29:26,120 Speaker 3: I'm creating a condition that no matter what happens, it's 538 00:29:26,200 --> 00:29:28,760 Speaker 3: evidence to you. It's a ratification to you that the 539 00:29:28,800 --> 00:29:29,680 Speaker 3: trance is working. 540 00:29:29,880 --> 00:29:32,000 Speaker 2: Oh interesting, So there's no escape. 541 00:29:32,080 --> 00:29:36,480 Speaker 3: It's called inclusive set and ratification. I'm letting you ratify 542 00:29:36,560 --> 00:29:38,560 Speaker 3: through your own experience that it's working. 543 00:29:39,720 --> 00:29:42,640 Speaker 2: So what he's describing as a rhetorical trap, right, because 544 00:29:42,640 --> 00:29:45,840 Speaker 2: he's giving you two options. You might hear every word 545 00:29:45,880 --> 00:29:50,200 Speaker 2: I say or you might not, but whatever you experience 546 00:29:50,360 --> 00:29:52,440 Speaker 2: ends up reinforcing the trans. 547 00:29:52,360 --> 00:29:55,240 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's disarming, and I could see this maybe working 548 00:29:55,280 --> 00:29:59,320 Speaker 1: on someone who wants to get hypnotized, But again, would 549 00:29:59,360 --> 00:30:02,160 Speaker 1: this work on someone who is just a stranger in 550 00:30:02,200 --> 00:30:05,680 Speaker 1: the street. I still am skeptical about that. I don't 551 00:30:05,720 --> 00:30:08,040 Speaker 1: think any of these techniques could work on someone who's 552 00:30:08,080 --> 00:30:12,760 Speaker 1: truly resistant, and that's the problem with pickup artistry overall. 553 00:30:12,880 --> 00:30:15,120 Speaker 2: I mean, I wonder if the real secret of pickup 554 00:30:15,200 --> 00:30:19,440 Speaker 2: artistry is simply empowering a bunch of men who are insecure, 555 00:30:19,880 --> 00:30:22,400 Speaker 2: like these guys who have been rejected a million times 556 00:30:22,480 --> 00:30:26,080 Speaker 2: and they're afraid of women and shy and ross. Jeffries 557 00:30:26,120 --> 00:30:29,960 Speaker 2: basically tells them he's giving them magic hypno powers. So 558 00:30:30,240 --> 00:30:33,880 Speaker 2: when they go out, even if they don't successfully hypnotize women, 559 00:30:34,320 --> 00:30:37,560 Speaker 2: they probably feel as though they have these secret weapons, 560 00:30:37,960 --> 00:30:41,280 Speaker 2: and that makes them more confident, and that confidence is 561 00:30:41,320 --> 00:30:42,440 Speaker 2: inherently more attractive. 562 00:30:42,920 --> 00:30:44,920 Speaker 1: And then on top of that, the pickup artists tell 563 00:30:44,920 --> 00:30:46,880 Speaker 1: them to just do not stop until you pick up 564 00:30:46,880 --> 00:30:49,280 Speaker 1: a woman. So it's a numbers game. No matter what 565 00:30:49,360 --> 00:30:51,680 Speaker 1: techniques you use, if you use them on three hundred 566 00:30:51,680 --> 00:30:53,760 Speaker 1: women in a single weekend, one of them is bound 567 00:30:53,760 --> 00:30:55,200 Speaker 1: to hit exactly. 568 00:30:56,080 --> 00:30:58,680 Speaker 2: So at the very end of our interview, I asked 569 00:30:58,760 --> 00:31:01,360 Speaker 2: Ross if speeds to do action was just that. 570 00:31:01,760 --> 00:31:06,440 Speaker 1: Basically something you believe in, so it works a placebo. 571 00:31:06,000 --> 00:31:10,720 Speaker 2: Effect, or maybe there's more to it. Is it possible 572 00:31:10,800 --> 00:31:13,320 Speaker 2: to use NLP to manipulate people? 573 00:31:13,760 --> 00:31:15,600 Speaker 3: Define manipulation to. 574 00:31:16,280 --> 00:31:20,240 Speaker 2: Make them do something that they wouldn't otherwise do. 575 00:31:21,120 --> 00:31:23,680 Speaker 3: I had a mentor I don't care to mention his name, 576 00:31:23,720 --> 00:31:26,520 Speaker 3: and I said to hey, can you use hypnosis to 577 00:31:26,640 --> 00:31:30,360 Speaker 3: make people do things against their will? It gave me 578 00:31:30,480 --> 00:31:34,240 Speaker 3: very interesting answers Zoe. He said, well, technically no, but 579 00:31:34,400 --> 00:31:38,120 Speaker 3: in fact, in reality and actuality, most people don't have 580 00:31:38,160 --> 00:31:39,960 Speaker 3: a will. I said, what do you mean by that? 581 00:31:41,240 --> 00:31:44,120 Speaker 3: He said, most people just have wishes that flit in 582 00:31:44,160 --> 00:31:47,160 Speaker 3: and out of their mind, conflicting desires, but will and 583 00:31:47,320 --> 00:31:54,520 Speaker 3: actual focused, strong intent and desire, they don't have that. 584 00:31:55,600 --> 00:31:58,480 Speaker 3: So if you're talking about getting people to do things 585 00:31:58,520 --> 00:32:01,959 Speaker 3: against their will. Most people don't have a will. If 586 00:32:02,000 --> 00:32:05,360 Speaker 3: you're talking about manipulation, let's unpack what we mean by that, 587 00:32:05,400 --> 00:32:09,760 Speaker 3: because let's be clear in our terms manipulation if you 588 00:32:09,800 --> 00:32:11,320 Speaker 3: want to call it that, If you want to use 589 00:32:11,360 --> 00:32:17,360 Speaker 3: the term, just mean skillful means of creating change. For example, 590 00:32:17,800 --> 00:32:21,080 Speaker 3: I had a surgery. The scars are very small, recently, 591 00:32:21,640 --> 00:32:25,320 Speaker 3: to fix a double hernia. That surgeon was extraordinarily good 592 00:32:25,320 --> 00:32:28,560 Speaker 3: at manipulating the robot. The robot actually does the surgery 593 00:32:28,680 --> 00:32:30,560 Speaker 3: is very good at it. I had a very short 594 00:32:30,560 --> 00:32:35,440 Speaker 3: recovery time. So that's a form of manipulation. If by 595 00:32:35,520 --> 00:32:40,120 Speaker 3: manipulation you mean taking someone at a certain state of 596 00:32:40,160 --> 00:32:43,600 Speaker 3: consciousness and then moving them to another one in a 597 00:32:43,640 --> 00:32:48,400 Speaker 3: way that does no harm, that in fact serves them. 598 00:32:48,040 --> 00:32:51,800 Speaker 2: For Ross, there's a difference between destructive forms of manipulation, 599 00:32:52,360 --> 00:32:55,400 Speaker 2: like knowingly selling someone a car that's going to explode 600 00:32:55,560 --> 00:32:59,960 Speaker 2: or praying on their deepest, darkest weaknesses, and the supposedly neutral, 601 00:33:00,200 --> 00:33:02,760 Speaker 2: harmless approaches to changing someone's state of mind. 602 00:33:04,120 --> 00:33:07,479 Speaker 3: See, you can look at what I do, whether it sales. 603 00:33:07,520 --> 00:33:11,960 Speaker 3: Your seduction is getting ideas past the person's conscious mind 604 00:33:12,000 --> 00:33:15,040 Speaker 3: into their unconscious, but You can also look at it 605 00:33:15,080 --> 00:33:20,080 Speaker 3: as expanding their consciousness to include new ideas, new perspectives 606 00:33:20,080 --> 00:33:23,160 Speaker 3: that they otherwise would not have had from their autopilot. 607 00:33:25,280 --> 00:33:27,840 Speaker 2: What really jumps out at me here, Alice, is the 608 00:33:27,920 --> 00:33:31,120 Speaker 2: idea that people don't have a will. When he first 609 00:33:31,120 --> 00:33:34,560 Speaker 2: said that, I was like, excuse me, I have a will? 610 00:33:34,760 --> 00:33:38,719 Speaker 2: How dare you suggest otherwise? But I actually get it. 611 00:33:39,280 --> 00:33:41,720 Speaker 2: We like to think of ourselves as these super rational, 612 00:33:41,840 --> 00:33:45,040 Speaker 2: singular beings, but that's just not true. 613 00:33:45,400 --> 00:33:50,760 Speaker 1: And that's why covert hypnosis could work. Some targets unconsciously 614 00:33:51,080 --> 00:33:54,760 Speaker 1: want it to work. That's why stage hypnosis works. When 615 00:33:54,760 --> 00:33:57,240 Speaker 1: people are walking on all fours and barking like a 616 00:33:57,280 --> 00:34:00,000 Speaker 1: dog and pretending to be a poodle, well, it's actually 617 00:34:00,160 --> 00:34:01,440 Speaker 1: kind of fun and liberating. 618 00:34:02,920 --> 00:34:06,160 Speaker 2: We're full of conflicting desires, and maybe if you do 619 00:34:06,280 --> 00:34:09,960 Speaker 2: persuade someone to sleep with you, it's not about overriding 620 00:34:10,000 --> 00:34:12,839 Speaker 2: their will. It's about appealing to one of their many 621 00:34:12,920 --> 00:34:14,120 Speaker 2: contradictory selves. 622 00:34:14,680 --> 00:34:17,000 Speaker 1: And you know what, Zoe, I also think that's weirdly 623 00:34:17,120 --> 00:34:21,040 Speaker 1: why people seek out workshops on pickup artistry or any 624 00:34:21,120 --> 00:34:24,239 Speaker 1: form of self help. We're unsatisfied with the kind of 625 00:34:24,280 --> 00:34:26,640 Speaker 1: like pistiche of a self that doesn't feel like it 626 00:34:26,680 --> 00:34:30,480 Speaker 1: has a strong direction or meaning. Gurus like Ross Jeffries 627 00:34:30,760 --> 00:34:35,480 Speaker 1: or even Tony Robbins or Richard Bandler an NLP capitalize 628 00:34:35,480 --> 00:34:35,759 Speaker 1: on that. 629 00:34:36,719 --> 00:34:39,560 Speaker 2: They tell followers that can fix all their internal conflicts 630 00:34:39,600 --> 00:34:42,600 Speaker 2: and make them whole, and most grooves also promote the 631 00:34:42,600 --> 00:34:44,799 Speaker 2: idea that they're going to give you more agency and 632 00:34:44,920 --> 00:34:46,800 Speaker 2: power in that process. 633 00:34:47,440 --> 00:34:47,600 Speaker 7: Right. 634 00:34:47,719 --> 00:34:50,279 Speaker 1: But what's really scary is that once you start to 635 00:34:50,280 --> 00:34:53,120 Speaker 1: depend on a guru to provide your sense of power, 636 00:34:54,120 --> 00:34:55,760 Speaker 1: that person can take it away. 637 00:34:56,880 --> 00:35:00,120 Speaker 7: So once you've sort of taken that step then and 638 00:35:00,160 --> 00:35:02,680 Speaker 7: it means actually, I don't know what's best for me, 639 00:35:02,880 --> 00:35:05,520 Speaker 7: and you do know what's best for me. That's how 640 00:35:06,280 --> 00:35:08,239 Speaker 7: it can become so scary. Like if someone had said 641 00:35:08,239 --> 00:35:10,279 Speaker 7: to me that in twelve years I was going to 642 00:35:10,280 --> 00:35:13,240 Speaker 7: be branded with the leader's initials, I would have clearly 643 00:35:13,800 --> 00:35:15,520 Speaker 7: given them the finger and ran out the door. 644 00:35:16,600 --> 00:35:20,560 Speaker 1: What Nexium, a notorious cult whose leader was convicted of 645 00:35:20,600 --> 00:35:28,920 Speaker 1: sex trafficking, stole from NLP That's Next Time on mind Games. 646 00:35:30,800 --> 00:35:35,319 Speaker 1: Mind Games is a Kaleidoscope production in partnership with iHeart Podcasts. 647 00:35:35,560 --> 00:35:38,840 Speaker 1: The series is created and hosted by me Alice Hines 648 00:35:38,960 --> 00:35:43,200 Speaker 1: and Zoe Lascaz. It's produced by writer Alsop and Dara Lukpotz, 649 00:35:44,000 --> 00:35:48,600 Speaker 1: edited by Kate Osborne. Editorial consulting from Adeza Egan. 650 00:35:49,160 --> 00:35:53,359 Speaker 2: Original composition and mixing by Steve Bone, fact checking by 651 00:35:53,400 --> 00:35:59,400 Speaker 2: Aman Waylan from Kaleidoscope. Our executive producers are Oswaloshan Mangeshatikador 652 00:35:59,560 --> 00:36:03,880 Speaker 2: and Kate Osbourne from iHeart. Our executive producers are Katrina 653 00:36:03,960 --> 00:36:05,360 Speaker 2: Norvil and Nikki Etor.