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Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind, the production of

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Speaker 1: My Heart Radio. Hey you welcome to Stuff to Blow

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Speaker 1: your Mind. My name is Robert lamp and I'm Joe McCormick. Joe.

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Speaker 1: When I mentioned God, well, what do you imagine in

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Speaker 1: your head? What do you see? What's the vision that

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Speaker 1: comes to mind? I have to be honest and say

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Speaker 1: it's not a great answer, but it is God from

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Speaker 1: Monty Python and the Holy Grail, you know. So it

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Speaker 1: is actually an incredibly an incredibly literal depiction of like

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Speaker 1: an old man with a beard, wearing a crown, sitting

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Speaker 1: in a cloud and saying something angry at people down

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Speaker 1: on the ground. Now that that's probably not the full

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Speaker 1: picture of God in my head, but that was the

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Speaker 1: very first thing that came to mind. And it might

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Speaker 1: be because you specifically asked me to picture God, which

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Speaker 1: I don't normally do when I think about the concept. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: absolutely me. And I feel like I have a similar

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Speaker 1: situation going on, you know where if you just say

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Speaker 1: all right, think about God, picture God right now? Uh,

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Speaker 1: you know, kind of a gozer moment where you have

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Speaker 1: to just just come up with a mental image. My

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Speaker 1: mind does instantly go to this um old sky Daddy image.

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Speaker 1: I think of the Sistine Chapel. I think of you know,

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Speaker 1: various images of Zeus I guess and uh, and certainly

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Speaker 1: things like like like the Monty Python God are very

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Speaker 1: much in that vein. Um. There's also a sort of

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Speaker 1: a Sistine Chapel Chapel God gag that Stephen Colbert does

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Speaker 1: on his show, where like God appears on the ceiling

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Speaker 1: of the theater and speaks to him. Um. So those

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Speaker 1: are the images that are kind of initially hardwired into

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Speaker 1: my brain. Though It's interesting because you know, growing up, uh,

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Speaker 1: you know, in a Protestant church, those were not images

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Speaker 1: that we were ever presented with. It's not like that

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Speaker 1: was the illustration in the Bible or on the walls

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Speaker 1: of the church. That's not what they were trying to

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Speaker 1: inundate us with. But we were exposed to it at

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Speaker 1: some point outside of the church. And then that's just

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Speaker 1: what's dicks and that's what remains unless you know, obviously,

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Speaker 1: like you, if I'm dealing with a more specific example

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Speaker 1: of God or a deeper I think that you know,

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Speaker 1: thoughts about the nature of God. I can go in

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Speaker 1: any number of directions, but that initial gut response that

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Speaker 1: that initial mental image is the old sky Daddy. Can

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Speaker 1: I tell you the second image that came to my

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Speaker 1: mind after Monty Python and the Holy Grail? And it

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Speaker 1: was like, I don't know what this is from, but

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Speaker 1: it is basically a a very poorly three D animated

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Speaker 1: kind of late nineties c G I face of like

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Speaker 1: a lady with red eyes in a computer background, very

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Speaker 1: lawnmower man. I don't know why that, but that's in

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Speaker 1: there too. Yeah, I mean, and that is kind of

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Speaker 1: that's kind of goes Arian as well, right, because yeah,

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Speaker 1: lots of corners and the cheeks in the forehead. Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I'd say that I probably if I'm like my my

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Speaker 1: post gut image, I probably go into like a much

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Speaker 1: more sort of psychedelic kind of zone and abstract zone,

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Speaker 1: and I think of things that are that are certainly

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Speaker 1: not anthropomorphic, and I try to think of things that

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Speaker 1: are just like geometrically based. Um. But yeah, that initial

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Speaker 1: initial mental image is always going to be the sky Daddy,

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Speaker 1: and I guess it's just stuck there. I don't guess.

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Speaker 1: I guess it's just gonna remain there for the rest

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Speaker 1: of my life. Yeah, you can't escape what gets put

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Speaker 1: there in childhood. But I guess this should be a

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Speaker 1: good indication that for this episode and for the next

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Speaker 1: episode as well, we're going to be talking about the

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Speaker 1: idea of representation of the divine in the history of

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Speaker 1: of the religions of the world. Uh, specifically, we're gonna

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Speaker 1: be talking about the concept of an iconism. Yes, an iconism, uh,

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Speaker 1: discussing an iconic images. So the icon and there in

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Speaker 1: that word of is referringled like the icon that is

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Speaker 1: like the center of focus in religious ceremony, personal worship,

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Speaker 1: that sort of thing. Right, So what is an an

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Speaker 1: iconic religion or an an iconic cult. If something is

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Speaker 1: an iconic, then it is symbolic or suggestive rather than

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Speaker 1: a literal representation. It's not designed as a likeness. It's

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Speaker 1: not an idol. It is not an anthropomorphic representation. It

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Speaker 1: is not a humanoid. Uh, it is the opposite of that. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: So this is one of those subjects where actually a

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Speaker 1: lot of the interest can be found in trying to

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Speaker 1: figure out what the definition of an iconic should be.

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Speaker 1: It's one of those things where like just trying to

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Speaker 1: define it actually raises a lot of really interesting questions

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Speaker 1: about the subject matter itself. Um and I found a

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Speaker 1: really good overview paper dealing with this question of how

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Speaker 1: to define the concept an iconic or antichonicity that was

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Speaker 1: written by a Yale University art historian named Milette Gaffman,

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Speaker 1: and it was published in the Journal Religion in seventeen. Actually,

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Speaker 1: this specific issue of the Journal Religion, uh is a

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Speaker 1: themed issue that was all about anichonism and it and

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Speaker 1: this paper goes significantly into the problem of how scholars

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Speaker 1: have offered different and sometimes incommensurate definitions of these terms

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Speaker 1: over the years. But this paper is the introductory essay

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Speaker 1: to that themed issue of the Journal Religion, and I

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Speaker 1: think we're actually going to cite several other papers from

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Speaker 1: that same issue over the course of these episodes. So anyway,

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Speaker 1: this article is called an Iconism Definitions, Examples and Comparative Perspectives. Again,

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Speaker 1: this is from the Journal Religion in TV and it's

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Speaker 1: by Millette Gafeman and uh So, the short simple definition

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Speaker 1: of anichonism given at the beginning of this article is

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Speaker 1: that it is the demarcation of divine presence without a

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Speaker 1: figural representation. Now I'll get more into the details of

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Speaker 1: that as we go on, but I thought it might

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Speaker 1: be helpful to start with just an example, a concrete example,

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Speaker 1: and this one is cited in Engafeman's paper. So what

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Speaker 1: she looks at is a Cypriot copper coin created during

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Speaker 1: the Roman Empire roughly seventy five to seventy six CE,

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Speaker 1: so this would have been during the reign of Emperor Vespasian.

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Speaker 1: And there's an image on the coin I've got for

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Speaker 1: you to look at here, rob that is definitely not

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Speaker 1: a human form. It is some kind of geometrical thing.

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Speaker 1: It looks like there's maybe kind of a building or

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Speaker 1: shrine of some kind. And then in the middle of

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Speaker 1: the building or shrine there is just this shape that's

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Speaker 1: not a human it's just a kind of like tapering

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Speaker 1: or sort of triangular conical shape. And the evidence from

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Speaker 1: the archaeological and historical context makes clear that this coin

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Speaker 1: depicts an object that was worshiped at the shrine of

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Speaker 1: the goddess Aphrodite in Pathos, which which was a city

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Speaker 1: in in Cyprus that was sometimes believed to be the

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Speaker 1: home and the birthplace of the goddess Aphrodite. Now I

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Speaker 1: think we can agree that this image on the coin

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Speaker 1: does not depict the same kind of Aphrodite that you

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Speaker 1: find in a lot of other Roman art of Aphrodite,

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Speaker 1: of course, was the goddess of love and beauty, and

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Speaker 1: she's been shown in human form as a beautiful woman,

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Speaker 1: often like reclining nude or posing gracefully as in you

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Speaker 1: might find h you know, representations of her and a

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Speaker 1: bunch of frescoes from POMPEII that you may have seen. Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: that the artistic depictions were accustomed to very much inform.

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Speaker 1: I think in many of us, anyway, that that gut

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Speaker 1: instinct image that comes to mind when we think of

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Speaker 1: the name Aphrodite, right, and in these frescoes from Pompei,

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Speaker 1: for example, afro Aphrodite is not only depicted in human form.

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Speaker 1: I would say probably that she is aggressively humanoid, aggressively

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Speaker 1: embodied in that her human shaped body is a major

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Speaker 1: expression of her meaning as a divine presence, you know,

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Speaker 1: as the goddess of love and beauty, she is supposed

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Speaker 1: to represent beauty. So you might always expect Aphrodite's presence

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Speaker 1: to be indicated by a painting or a statue of

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Speaker 1: a humanoid female form that was thought, at least by

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Speaker 1: the artist to be beautiful, but apparently that was not

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Speaker 1: always the case. The object of worship at the cult

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Speaker 1: center for the Cypriot cult of Aphrodite and Pathos looks

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Speaker 1: more like a weird cone. It's Aphrodite in her dollic form.

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Speaker 1: You almost want to give her an epithet. Remember we

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Speaker 1: talked about the Roman epithets of different versions of God.

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Speaker 1: So you've got you know, Jupiter, Pluvius or Jupiter whatever,

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Speaker 1: a Jupiter who brings rain. This is sort of Aphrodite dolicus. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's almost as if like this is the God in

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Speaker 1: its true form that has arrived, and people are like, whoa,

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Speaker 1: we don't know what to make of this, We don't

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Speaker 1: we don't understand what you're trying to lay out here.

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Speaker 1: And then the God realizes, oh, I need to take

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Speaker 1: on a humanoid form that communicates at a base level

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Speaker 1: with these humans what I represent. I'm going to have

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Speaker 1: to speak to them through physical appearance and body language

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Speaker 1: and facial expressions and pose and all of this other

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Speaker 1: just sort of the innate communication stuff, as opposed to

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Speaker 1: taking on my true form of the weirdly top comb. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's almost like, you know, if they saw the cone form,

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Speaker 1: it would I have the mad Then you know, we've

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Speaker 1: got to represent ourselves. I mean, I want to be

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Speaker 1: very clear. I'm not saying I think that was actually there. Uh,

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Speaker 1: their their theology, there's no indication of that. But yeah,

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Speaker 1: my mind goes to the same place. Yeah, and part,

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Speaker 1: I mean part of that is, yeah, well, there's this

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Speaker 1: long history at this point in like weird fiction and

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Speaker 1: you know, science fiction and horror where you have the

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Speaker 1: god whose true form you know, is just ineffable or

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Speaker 1: it is too monstrous to behold. And the weird thing

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Speaker 1: is those traditions they do get into this, maybe accidentally,

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Speaker 1: they get into this idea of an iconism, you know,

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Speaker 1: this idea of of like, well can you can you

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Speaker 1: show what that real god is? Oh no, no, it's

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Speaker 1: too horrible. We have to have some some other things

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Speaker 1: stand in right, paying no attention to the cone behind

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Speaker 1: the curtain um. But so the Roman historian Tacitus actually

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Speaker 1: describes the shrine in Pathos, and he tells us that

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Speaker 1: the Latin quote is simulacrum day non effigy humana, meaning

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Speaker 1: the image of the goddess was not in human form,

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Speaker 1: and then to quote Gaifman, additionally, he noted that the

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Speaker 1: deity was represented by a circular mass that is broader

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Speaker 1: at the base and rises like a turning post to

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Speaker 1: a small circumference at the top. And it looks like

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Speaker 1: this is the same thing that's depicted on this coin here.

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Speaker 1: And so Giveman writes that all evidence suggests that what

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Speaker 1: the cult of Aphrodite and path Fosse worshiped was a

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Speaker 1: conical stone. And this is actually not even particularly unusual

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Speaker 1: in its historical context. Apparently, at many sanctuaries and cult

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Speaker 1: centers in first century Cyprus, rituals appear to have been

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Speaker 1: focused around some kind of large stone. You would have

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Speaker 1: a cult center, it might be a cult center identified

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Speaker 1: with the named god that elsewhere would be represented often

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Speaker 1: in the statue or a painting, is having a human form,

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Speaker 1: but here it's represented by some kind of big rock.

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Speaker 1: And this raises all kinds of interesting questions about, you know,

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Speaker 1: when we want to understand the religion of these ancient people.

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Speaker 1: So I want to read a paragraph here from from

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Speaker 1: Gaifeman that gets into these questions. Quote, the information we

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Speaker 1: can learn about the Cypriot cult of Aphrodite is illuminating,

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Speaker 1: Yet it also illustrates a fundamental challenge for our assessment

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Speaker 1: of an aniconic cult. Even if we can identify an

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Speaker 1: example of an aniconic object, we may not be able

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Speaker 1: to establish its significance in the eyes of worshippers. In

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Speaker 1: the example of the Cypriot cult of Aphrodite and Pathos,

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Speaker 1: we cannot know how participants in the rights at the

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Speaker 1: site perceived the conical stone. Did pilgrims to Pathos see

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Speaker 1: the stone as an embodiment of the deity? Did they

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Speaker 1: hold it to be more venerable than the more familiar

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Speaker 1: figural statues of the goddess of Love Like Tacitus, We

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Speaker 1: only have an outside perspective, Baffled by the choice of

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Speaker 1: object for the sanctuary's primary focus. We're reminded of the

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Speaker 1: Roman historians assertion set Razzio in obscure a quote, but

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Speaker 1: the reason is obscure. Uh so, yeah, we were left

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Speaker 1: with all these questions. I mean, there there is no

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Speaker 1: conclusive explanation for what the people who went to this

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Speaker 1: cult center in Pathos thought this conical stone meant. It's

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Speaker 1: clear that it somehow represented the presence of aphrodite. But

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Speaker 1: yet did they think this is Aphrodite's true form? Did

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Speaker 1: they think that it it indicated some quality of aphrodite?

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Speaker 1: Did they think this is just what we have here?

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Speaker 1: This is the closest we could get to the form

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Speaker 1: of aphrodite. And to be clear, it seems that they

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Speaker 1: also used other images of aphrodite as well. Right, well,

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Speaker 1: there were other images of aphrodite, like throughout the Roman Empire,

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Speaker 1: but I don't know about at this specific cult center.

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Speaker 1: At this cult center, this might have been all they had.

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Speaker 1: It's not clear. So, yeah, that does raise a number

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Speaker 1: of interesting questions. Yeah, like is this just is this

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Speaker 1: to a certain extent the best they could do. Was

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Speaker 1: this the uh you know? Or was this a deliberate

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Speaker 1: aesthetic choice based on various like theological concepts. Uh? This

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Speaker 1: is gonna be an rising question for us to keep

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Speaker 1: in our mind as we we look at different um

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Speaker 1: and iconic traditions and values in different cultures. Yeah, and

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Speaker 1: to the point of some of the difficulties in in

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Speaker 1: the job of you know, studying comparative religions, gave mean

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Speaker 1: also emphasizes an important point that I'd like to talk about.

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Speaker 1: She writes this near the beginning of her essay, quote,

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Speaker 1: what can the historian of religion gain from considering in

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Speaker 1: tandem traditions such as the worship of trees in modern

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Speaker 1: India which we'll get into later in this episode, the

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Speaker 1: Dead Pillar of Osiris, and the biblical prohibitions on depicting

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Speaker 1: the God of the Israelites. Examining together geographically and chronologically

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Speaker 1: divergent religious practices is fraught with methodological pitfalls and intellectual challenges.

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Speaker 1: At the very least, this exercise risks implying that all

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Speaker 1: phenomena clustered under a single heading have a single meaning.

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Speaker 1: And that's a very good point, because I love the

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Speaker 1: study of comparative religions. I think it's it's great to

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Speaker 1: compare different religions to each other and understand and their

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Speaker 1: their similarities and their differences. But I think it's also

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Speaker 1: important while you're doing that um to follow the standard

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Speaker 1: guiding principles of empirical science, even when you're studying something

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Speaker 1: like a complex social phenomenon like art and religion. Uh,

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Speaker 1: And those principles would be things like, of course, correlation

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Speaker 1: does not necessarily imply causation. You can't assume that because

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Speaker 1: two different religious traditions share a similar feature that those

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Speaker 1: features have the same underlying cause. Yeah, like like, for instance,

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Speaker 1: it would be very tempting to just broad strokes to

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Speaker 1: say something like, well, religions or cultures that that have

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Speaker 1: actual anthropomorphic manifestations of their God, they have just more

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Speaker 1: of a physical mindset, and whereas and uh and and

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Speaker 1: iconic traditions have more of a spiritual mindset. Like that's

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Speaker 1: just such a broad statement to make that it it

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Speaker 1: runs a high risk of just being you know, completely

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Speaker 1: untrue on both sides. You know, you're just everything is

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Speaker 1: going to be a lot more nuanced than that. And also,

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Speaker 1: as we'll discuss, you can't really talk about like, Okay,

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Speaker 1: this religion is is an iconic and this one is iconic,

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Speaker 1: because generally you're gonna see both trends in any given

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Speaker 1: religion over the course of of its of its lifetime.

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Speaker 1: That's exactly right. And you know, as we've already seen,

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Speaker 1: there are clearly, you know, there are both kinds within

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Speaker 1: Greco Roman religion. You know, you have an iconic Greco

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Speaker 1: Roman religion and you have highly iconic Greco Roman religion

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Speaker 1: existing side by side even at the same time, and uh,

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Speaker 1: and that's true of many. I think we're gonna look

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Speaker 1: at some of the spectrum in uh, some of this

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Speaker 1: so worship in India and things. You'll you'll even see

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Speaker 1: the same contrast within within similar branches of Christianity, more

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Speaker 1: an iconic sort of forms of Christian worship versus more

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Speaker 1: iconic ones. Yeah. Yeah, because again, that's what's so interesting

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Speaker 1: about the sky God thing is because uh, in most

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Speaker 1: like Protestant churches, you have a you know, at least

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Speaker 1: the one I grew up in, it's very uh an

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Speaker 1: iconic inside, you know, and for the most part, there's

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Speaker 1: a there's a large uh shift, in a large trend

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Speaker 1: in an iconism in there. But it's from elsewhere. It's

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Speaker 1: from like the broader culture that you end up getting

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Speaker 1: these iconic emblems of the sky Daddy. Now to the

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Speaker 1: point of the difficulty in defining these terms and all

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Speaker 1: the interesting questions that raises, uh, Gaifman sort of conducts

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Speaker 1: a review in this essay about the many different ways

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Speaker 1: that the terms an iconic and an iconism have been

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Speaker 1: used in the history of religious studies. She notes that

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Speaker 1: one of the earliest instances, at least in the modern

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Speaker 1: world of these terms comes from the German archaeologist Johannes

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Speaker 1: Adolf Overbeck, who lived eighteen twenty six to eight, who

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Speaker 1: coined these terms. I think he was writing in German,

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Speaker 1: so it's an ikon niche and an ikonsmas, and I

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Speaker 1: guess those would be based on Greek formulations, but not

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Speaker 1: terms that the ancient Greeks would have actually used too

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Speaker 1: in the same way that they're being used here. But

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Speaker 1: she says that Overbeck was trying to promote a particular

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Speaker 1: perception of the earliest history of Greek art. So over

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Speaker 1: had a speculative interpretation of what the prehistory of Greek

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Speaker 1: art and Greek religion looked like, and in trying to

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Speaker 1: describe that speculative interpretation, he used these terms. And his

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Speaker 1: idea was that in prehistoric antiquity, the Greeks believed their

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Speaker 1: gods did not have human forms and could not be

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Speaker 1: represented anthropomorphically, and so as a result, they were not

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Speaker 1: depicted directly, but rather indicated by mediating symbols, including trees, stones, pillars, spears,

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Speaker 1: and scepters. Now not to say that Overbeck was necessarily

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Speaker 1: correct about that, but that was the idea that he

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Speaker 1: was trying to illustrate with this term. And I think

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Speaker 1: this would be somewhat analogous to how you can't really

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Speaker 1: like show a picture of a person to represent an

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Speaker 1: abstract concept today, for example a nation, so you might

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Speaker 1: instead represented symbolically with the flag. And Gaifman sites other

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Speaker 1: uh much earlier uses of these words, not so much

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Speaker 1: in religious at ease, But for example, she cites the

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Speaker 1: early Christian theologian Clement of Alexandria, who's you know, considered

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Speaker 1: one of the earliest known Christian church fathers. And and uh.

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Speaker 1: In Clement's writings, he uses an an ancient ancestor of

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Speaker 1: the term an iconic, but with a different meaning, the

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Speaker 1: Greek word and I kissed on, which means basically not representable.

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Speaker 1: It's a word that would mean something in English kind

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Speaker 1: of like undrawable or unrepresentable. And St. Clement is saying

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Speaker 1: there that it is impossible to indicate the nature of

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Speaker 1: the divine in a representative form. He's essentially just saying, like,

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Speaker 1: there's no way to draw God, you can't do it.

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Speaker 1: I want to drive home something here that well, perhaps uh,

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Speaker 1: elaborating something I said earlier, Like I thought I asked

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Speaker 1: the question regarding the cone um of aphrodite, you know,

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Speaker 1: asking what was this all they had? I don't want

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Speaker 1: to imply that that is a question of is this

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Speaker 1: all they could do? Because, as we've discussed on the

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Speaker 1: show before, the creation of anthropomorphicum are of creating human

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Speaker 1: and animal likenesses and combinations of the two. These are

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Speaker 1: very ancient trends in in in human culture, in our

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Speaker 1: in our in our crafting of our environment. So if

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Speaker 1: if one is creating something that is abstract that does

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Speaker 1: not embody some version of the human form or an

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Speaker 1: animal form, like that is a that is a deliberate choice.

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Speaker 1: It's not a situation of someone of a culture being like, well,

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Speaker 1: we'd love to be able to draw the lion man God,

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Speaker 1: but we just don't have the technology yet, so we're

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Speaker 1: going to use a square. That's not how it works.

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Speaker 1: Oh yeah. I mean, both both iconic and an iconic

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Speaker 1: religious imageries appear to go way back into you know,

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Speaker 1: deep prehistory. So both of these traditions have long been

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Speaker 1: present and um and I could imagine a scenario where, say,

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Speaker 1: for example, if you a cult, a local cult might

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Speaker 1: say like, well, we can't afford to pay an artisan

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Speaker 1: to create this kind of statue, but we have this

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Speaker 1: other kind of statue. But but you definitely want to

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Speaker 1: don't want jump from that possibility to thinking that the

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Speaker 1: that an iconic versus iconic religion, that one is in

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Speaker 1: any way superior to the other, because it's actually been

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Speaker 1: written about both ways. Like some scholars have written about

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Speaker 1: an iconic religions with a kind of um, a kind

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Speaker 1: of preferential bias towards them, like, oh, they're more spiritually

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Speaker 1: pure because they don't have to, you know, represent things

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Speaker 1: figur eally um. And obviously that's not true. But you

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Speaker 1: also don't want to think like iconic representation of God's

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Speaker 1: is superior because I don't know it it takes more

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Speaker 1: artistic skill or something like that, which it doesn't even necessarily.

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Speaker 1: So yeah, we're we're not going to be pursuing an

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Speaker 1: idea that one is in any way better than the other.

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Speaker 1: But coming back to the history of the definitions of

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Speaker 1: anticonicity um so, Gifman sites a few other ideas to

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Speaker 1: illustrate some of the problems here. One is that there

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Speaker 1: was a definition in the nineteen eighties by a scholar

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Speaker 1: named Berkhard Gladigau who defined an iconic cults as cults

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Speaker 1: in which quote no images are known or accepted as

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Speaker 1: objects of worship, especially not in the form of anthropomorphic images.

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Speaker 1: And this this, uh, this one comes in for some

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Speaker 1: criticism here because it complicates things by saying like no images.

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Speaker 1: So you know that's one problem, Like is the conent

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Speaker 1: Pathos at the Pathos Shrine not an image? I mean

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Speaker 1: it is an image, it's not, but it's not a

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Speaker 1: figural representation of a goddess with like a human or

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Speaker 1: animal body form, So it's not anthropomorphic, but it is

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Speaker 1: an image. So this definition might seem to conflict with

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Speaker 1: some other uses. And also it is specifically specifies objects

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Speaker 1: of worship, which you know, you could get into complications there.

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Speaker 1: In fact, I'll talk about a complication there in a second.

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Speaker 1: There's another definition that was refined by a scholar named

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Speaker 1: Mettinger in the nineteen nineties to argue that an iconism

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Speaker 1: should refer to cults where quote there is no iconic

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Speaker 1: representation of the deity, either anthropomorphic or theeomorphs it which

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Speaker 1: means an animal form serving as the dominant or central

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Speaker 1: cultic symbol. But here it would mean that for a

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Speaker 1: cult to be an iconic if there is a central

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Speaker 1: cultic symbol, that's the terminology. It can't take human or

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Speaker 1: animal form. And these definitions are also complicated by what

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Speaker 1: object or symbol you're actually talking about. What what actually

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Speaker 1: counts as a central cultic symbol or an object of worship? Like,

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Speaker 1: there are a lot of religious symbols that I think

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Speaker 1: would be difficult to figure out whether they fit in

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Speaker 1: those categories or not. If you think about a Catholic Church,

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Speaker 1: is the crucifix an object of worship or a central

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Speaker 1: cultic symbol? I think you would get people arguing both

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Speaker 1: for and against those propositions. Yeah. And and one reality

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Speaker 1: that will touch on again later too, is is it Yeah?

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Speaker 1: These these uh, these framings, these definitions, they often depend

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Speaker 1: on insider versus outsider um analysis. You know. Yes, so

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Speaker 1: somebody within, say like the Catholic Church would probably say, oh, well,

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Speaker 1: of course we don't worship the crucifix, it's just this symbol,

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Speaker 1: you know, etcetera. Where someone outside might say, whoa, look

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Speaker 1: at this crucifix. Clearly they're worshiping this. And you said,

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Speaker 1: and you also see like more um, I guess sharpened

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Speaker 1: analysis to sometimes where uh, you know, depending on you know,

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Speaker 1: which group is judging the other. Yeah, once again, I

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Speaker 1: mean this is an area where uh, writing about the

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Speaker 1: artistic representations of various religions, especially if you go further

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Speaker 1: back into history, you will sometimes come across analysis that

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Speaker 1: seems sort of biased or judgmental. You know, it's almost

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Speaker 1: like this is why this religion's UH art is is

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Speaker 1: not as good as I don't know, my my Christian

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Speaker 1: UH denominations art or something like that. Obviously, we want

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Speaker 1: to be careful not to not to fall into those traps. Plus,

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Speaker 1: I think it's it's it's pretty safe to say any

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Speaker 1: humans relationship with a with a deity, with a divine concept,

426
00:23:56,040 --> 00:23:58,480
Speaker 1: with the idea of a god, it's gonna be complex.

427
00:23:58,480 --> 00:24:00,560
Speaker 1: It's gonna be it's gonna be the kind of thing

428
00:24:00,640 --> 00:24:04,119
Speaker 1: where you can have multiple even conflicting ideas at once

429
00:24:04,160 --> 00:24:06,159
Speaker 1: in your head, kind of like how we're talking earlier

430
00:24:06,160 --> 00:24:08,919
Speaker 1: about how you can think about God and say, you know,

431
00:24:09,080 --> 00:24:14,080
Speaker 1: a Christian sense and you're you're at once you're imagining, like, uh,

432
00:24:14,119 --> 00:24:16,840
Speaker 1: the symbol of light coming out of a cloud that

433
00:24:16,840 --> 00:24:19,280
Speaker 1: you might be presented with. You're you're also imagining the

434
00:24:19,280 --> 00:24:23,679
Speaker 1: burning bush. You're also imagining the sky Daddy or sky Granddad,

435
00:24:23,800 --> 00:24:27,840
Speaker 1: zeus form of God like all these things. Yeah, they

436
00:24:27,840 --> 00:24:29,520
Speaker 1: can all sort of compete for your attention at the

437
00:24:29,560 --> 00:24:31,560
Speaker 1: same time. And there may be the one that you

438
00:24:31,600 --> 00:24:35,280
Speaker 1: were leaning into when you were engaging in worship, and

439
00:24:35,280 --> 00:24:37,520
Speaker 1: then there might be the gut instinct the image as well,

440
00:24:37,640 --> 00:24:39,400
Speaker 1: and so you can have all these. I mean, we've

441
00:24:39,520 --> 00:24:42,399
Speaker 1: we've talked about this in terms of say, ideas and

442
00:24:42,480 --> 00:24:45,480
Speaker 1: concepts of the afterlife before like how you know, any

443
00:24:45,480 --> 00:24:47,960
Speaker 1: given person within a faith, they may you know, they

444
00:24:48,000 --> 00:24:50,439
Speaker 1: may have have like three or four different ideas of

445
00:24:50,520 --> 00:24:53,320
Speaker 1: what happens when you die. Some of them are grounded

446
00:24:53,680 --> 00:24:55,479
Speaker 1: in like the scripture of a given faith or the

447
00:24:55,480 --> 00:24:57,359
Speaker 1: doctrine of a given faith, and others are just like

448
00:24:57,480 --> 00:25:01,320
Speaker 1: purely based on movies you've seen, you know, Yeah, yeah, totally.

449
00:25:01,920 --> 00:25:05,040
Speaker 1: So the final definition of of an iconism that Gaveman

450
00:25:05,080 --> 00:25:07,040
Speaker 1: lands On, I think is a really good one. She argues,

451
00:25:07,119 --> 00:25:09,159
Speaker 1: this is the better idea, and it comes from a

452
00:25:09,200 --> 00:25:12,760
Speaker 1: scholar named Alfred gel And it is the term here

453
00:25:12,840 --> 00:25:15,040
Speaker 1: for what you would be talking about when you're arguing

454
00:25:15,040 --> 00:25:18,439
Speaker 1: whether something's iconic or an iconic. Is uh, something that

455
00:25:18,560 --> 00:25:22,840
Speaker 1: is an index of divine presence. Uh, the index of

456
00:25:22,880 --> 00:25:26,560
Speaker 1: divine presence of is any marker that quote indicates to

457
00:25:26,600 --> 00:25:29,840
Speaker 1: the worshiper that a divine power is present at a

458
00:25:29,880 --> 00:25:34,040
Speaker 1: particular site, at least potentially. And I like this definition

459
00:25:34,080 --> 00:25:38,560
Speaker 1: because it doesn't necessarily require that the object is the

460
00:25:38,560 --> 00:25:42,080
Speaker 1: the thing that you're worshiping. But it's a marker that

461
00:25:42,200 --> 00:25:45,640
Speaker 1: shows you this place is sacred and reminds you of

462
00:25:45,680 --> 00:25:48,840
Speaker 1: the divine power here. So finally, she says, quote, I

463
00:25:48,880 --> 00:25:53,600
Speaker 1: propose to deploy an iconic to describe a physical object, monument, image,

464
00:25:53,680 --> 00:25:57,040
Speaker 1: or visual scheme that denotes the presence of a divine

465
00:25:57,119 --> 00:26:03,119
Speaker 1: power without a figural representation of the deity or deities involved. Similarly,

466
00:26:03,280 --> 00:26:06,760
Speaker 1: an iconism can be defined as the denotation of divine

467
00:26:06,800 --> 00:26:10,159
Speaker 1: presence without a figural image in both religious practice and

468
00:26:10,240 --> 00:26:13,639
Speaker 1: an imagery and visual culture. More broadly, so, it's a

469
00:26:13,800 --> 00:26:17,760
Speaker 1: non figural index of divine presence. It shows you there

470
00:26:17,920 --> 00:26:21,760
Speaker 1: is the divine presence here, reminds you of it. It

471
00:26:21,840 --> 00:26:23,479
Speaker 1: says you know, this is a place where you can

472
00:26:23,520 --> 00:26:26,439
Speaker 1: be reminded of God or the Gods or whatever the

473
00:26:26,480 --> 00:26:29,880
Speaker 1: divine presence is. But it doesn't have a body. It's

474
00:26:29,920 --> 00:26:33,879
Speaker 1: not like a human or like an animal form. So

475
00:26:33,960 --> 00:26:37,840
Speaker 1: there's this specific religious definition, but obviously it's also important

476
00:26:37,880 --> 00:26:41,080
Speaker 1: to keep in mind some other distinctions, such as the

477
00:26:41,119 --> 00:26:45,639
Speaker 1: distinction between an iconism in religion and just general non

478
00:26:45,680 --> 00:26:49,399
Speaker 1: figurative art, right uh. And then the other thing would be,

479
00:26:49,640 --> 00:26:52,560
Speaker 1: UM the difference between an iconism as we've been talking

480
00:26:52,560 --> 00:26:55,080
Speaker 1: about it here, which just means any kind of religious

481
00:26:55,200 --> 00:26:59,600
Speaker 1: uh index of divine presence that does not include figural representation,

482
00:27:00,200 --> 00:27:03,240
Speaker 1: versus what might be called anti iconism or even in

483
00:27:03,280 --> 00:27:09,120
Speaker 1: some cases iconic classm the explicit prohibition against or condemnation

484
00:27:09,240 --> 00:27:13,440
Speaker 1: of various kinds of figural representation in a religious context.

485
00:27:13,600 --> 00:27:17,560
Speaker 1: An Iconism is not necessarily anti iconism. It can be

486
00:27:17,640 --> 00:27:21,280
Speaker 1: in some cases, but it doesn't necessitate it. Yeah, and

487
00:27:21,400 --> 00:27:23,160
Speaker 1: we'll come back. I think we'll get more into two

488
00:27:23,359 --> 00:27:27,520
Speaker 1: um iconoclasm in the second episode. But but I do

489
00:27:27,520 --> 00:27:29,160
Speaker 1: want to touch a little bit more about the idea

490
00:27:29,160 --> 00:27:32,400
Speaker 1: of idols uh and icons UH. Some of the key

491
00:27:32,440 --> 00:27:36,280
Speaker 1: examples of an iconism that they stem from the the

492
00:27:36,320 --> 00:27:40,359
Speaker 1: Abrahamic religions, so they are key injunctions against the creation

493
00:27:40,400 --> 00:27:44,800
Speaker 1: of idols and Judaism. And it also follows in Christianity. Uh,

494
00:27:45,400 --> 00:27:47,960
Speaker 1: one of the ten commandments is thou shalt not make

495
00:27:48,119 --> 00:27:52,040
Speaker 1: under the any graven image. Right. That it's the second commandment,

496
00:27:52,160 --> 00:27:55,600
Speaker 1: and that uh that it's I remember that was one

497
00:27:55,640 --> 00:27:58,040
Speaker 1: that I didn't fully understand when I was a kid.

498
00:27:58,160 --> 00:28:01,280
Speaker 1: But I think that is brawly taken. As you know,

499
00:28:01,320 --> 00:28:03,320
Speaker 1: it's interpreted actually in a lot of different ways in

500
00:28:03,440 --> 00:28:06,000
Speaker 1: terms of how far that commandment goes, what all it

501
00:28:06,040 --> 00:28:08,800
Speaker 1: applies to, but in general it has taken as some

502
00:28:09,000 --> 00:28:12,840
Speaker 1: form of commandment against the creation of idols. Well, I

503
00:28:13,200 --> 00:28:15,879
Speaker 1: remember I had had this. I think I've mentioned this before.

504
00:28:16,080 --> 00:28:18,320
Speaker 1: I wish I could have to hunt up a copy

505
00:28:18,359 --> 00:28:20,879
Speaker 1: of it. I had this book of Bible stories and

506
00:28:20,920 --> 00:28:23,640
Speaker 1: it had illustrations in it, and so the way that

507
00:28:23,880 --> 00:28:27,600
Speaker 1: tended to explain this to me was just that, Okay,

508
00:28:27,640 --> 00:28:30,960
Speaker 1: you have these scenes where you know, God is speaking abstractly,

509
00:28:31,040 --> 00:28:33,960
Speaker 1: like through the burning Bush. That's clearly Bible stories illustrated

510
00:28:34,000 --> 00:28:36,879
Speaker 1: in there. But then it also illustrates the various stories

511
00:28:36,880 --> 00:28:42,000
Speaker 1: that involve the idols of rival religions and those the

512
00:28:42,000 --> 00:28:44,640
Speaker 1: the you know, the idols often took on this kind

513
00:28:44,640 --> 00:28:47,760
Speaker 1: of spooky or sinister quality. You know, they were imposing

514
00:28:47,880 --> 00:28:50,960
Speaker 1: and and you know, cool but also kind of weird.

515
00:28:51,600 --> 00:28:53,920
Speaker 1: And so I think that's an area where we have

516
00:28:53,960 --> 00:28:57,520
Speaker 1: to recognize that, um, the term idol often carries a

517
00:28:57,520 --> 00:29:01,400
Speaker 1: certain degree of negative connotation in some cultures due to

518
00:29:01,960 --> 00:29:06,080
Speaker 1: uh uh and i uh and iconic tendencies. But the basis,

519
00:29:06,080 --> 00:29:08,560
Speaker 1: but really the basic idea of a cult image a

520
00:29:08,640 --> 00:29:11,760
Speaker 1: human created object that is venerated for the deity and

521
00:29:11,800 --> 00:29:14,200
Speaker 1: the place of the deity. You know, this again is

522
00:29:14,280 --> 00:29:17,160
Speaker 1: quite old and it is not universally viewed as negative.

523
00:29:17,680 --> 00:29:19,200
Speaker 1: So I think it's it's important that we'd be able

524
00:29:19,240 --> 00:29:21,640
Speaker 1: to sort of step back from that sort of some

525
00:29:21,720 --> 00:29:25,120
Speaker 1: of this uh often sort of childhood indoctor nation about

526
00:29:25,400 --> 00:29:28,240
Speaker 1: about idols. And there's also a great deal of back

527
00:29:28,280 --> 00:29:30,800
Speaker 1: and forth about again what constitutes an idol in the

528
00:29:30,840 --> 00:29:33,400
Speaker 1: same way we're talking about, you know, what is an

529
00:29:33,600 --> 00:29:36,640
Speaker 1: icon and what isn't an icon? Yeah. So, yeah, if

530
00:29:36,720 --> 00:29:38,760
Speaker 1: if we keep using the words idol or icon in

531
00:29:38,800 --> 00:29:41,920
Speaker 1: these episodes, remember not to uh, not to automatically apply

532
00:29:41,960 --> 00:29:46,440
Speaker 1: a kind of stink to it. Right now, we'll we'll

533
00:29:46,480 --> 00:29:49,760
Speaker 1: get more into Islam in the second episode. But of

534
00:29:49,800 --> 00:29:52,400
Speaker 1: course an iconism and else it's also an important aspect

535
00:29:52,440 --> 00:29:54,800
Speaker 1: of Islam and one of the reasons you see so

536
00:29:54,880 --> 00:29:59,160
Speaker 1: much geometry and abstraction in Islamic art. Though this doesn't

537
00:29:59,160 --> 00:30:01,760
Speaker 1: mean that there are no depictions of lifelike figures in

538
00:30:01,800 --> 00:30:04,360
Speaker 1: the history of Islantic art. And again we'll get more

539
00:30:04,400 --> 00:30:06,840
Speaker 1: into that into the in the second episode. Now, they're

540
00:30:06,840 --> 00:30:09,600
Speaker 1: all kinds of interesting questions to ask here, one of

541
00:30:09,640 --> 00:30:12,280
Speaker 1: them that in many cases is difficult to answer, but

542
00:30:12,320 --> 00:30:15,240
Speaker 1: it's interesting to think about. Is in an iconic and

543
00:30:15,280 --> 00:30:19,160
Speaker 1: even anti iconic religions, why the lack of the icon

544
00:30:19,680 --> 00:30:23,800
Speaker 1: so a few examples. Is it, as a Clement said earlier,

545
00:30:23,840 --> 00:30:26,960
Speaker 1: that it's impossible to represent God in human form or

546
00:30:27,000 --> 00:30:30,600
Speaker 1: even impossible to represent God visually at all, meaning that

547
00:30:30,920 --> 00:30:35,040
Speaker 1: icons would just necessarily be incorrect and futile. Or is

548
00:30:35,080 --> 00:30:38,240
Speaker 1: it more a matter of manners and respect as in

549
00:30:38,920 --> 00:30:42,280
Speaker 1: whether or not you could potentially represent the divine it

550
00:30:42,280 --> 00:30:45,440
Speaker 1: would be inappropriate for a human artist to do so,

551
00:30:45,640 --> 00:30:49,200
Speaker 1: you know, the interpretation that icons would somehow be disrespectful

552
00:30:50,000 --> 00:30:52,239
Speaker 1: or could it be more about the impact of the

553
00:30:52,440 --> 00:30:54,960
Speaker 1: icon on the beholder? Is you know, is there a

554
00:30:54,960 --> 00:30:58,480
Speaker 1: belief that somehow picturing the divine presence in a human

555
00:30:58,560 --> 00:31:01,000
Speaker 1: or animal form would give you the wrong kind of

556
00:31:01,040 --> 00:31:05,280
Speaker 1: religious experience. Is it about the person worshiping um? Or

557
00:31:05,560 --> 00:31:08,720
Speaker 1: sometimes is it just a matter of um of of

558
00:31:08,760 --> 00:31:12,360
Speaker 1: like local convenience of like you know, what kind of

559
00:31:12,360 --> 00:31:15,480
Speaker 1: of icon is convenient for you to have at a

560
00:31:15,520 --> 00:31:18,479
Speaker 1: particular place in time. Maybe it is actually not a

561
00:31:18,520 --> 00:31:21,719
Speaker 1: figurative icon. So I I started thinking about all this

562
00:31:21,760 --> 00:31:24,240
Speaker 1: as as a bidential episode for a couple of reasons. So,

563
00:31:24,400 --> 00:31:26,880
Speaker 1: first of all, I was, I was reading about undeciphered

564
00:31:26,920 --> 00:31:29,720
Speaker 1: writing systems, and so I was thinking about the power

565
00:31:29,760 --> 00:31:32,520
Speaker 1: of words and symbols, and you know, and and what

566
00:31:32,560 --> 00:31:36,440
Speaker 1: happens if you can't actually decipher ancient examples of this.

567
00:31:37,160 --> 00:31:39,719
Speaker 1: And then I was I was revisiting the writings of

568
00:31:40,120 --> 00:31:43,600
Speaker 1: a spiritual teacher at Cartole from his book The Power

569
00:31:43,600 --> 00:31:46,760
Speaker 1: of Now, And I was reminded of this passage which

570
00:31:46,760 --> 00:31:49,600
Speaker 1: I'm going to read quote. Even a stone, and more

571
00:31:49,680 --> 00:31:52,240
Speaker 1: easily a flower or a bird could show you the

572
00:31:52,280 --> 00:31:55,560
Speaker 1: way back to God, to the source to yourself. When

573
00:31:55,560 --> 00:31:57,320
Speaker 1: you look at it or hold it and let it

574
00:31:57,360 --> 00:32:01,360
Speaker 1: be without imposing a word of mental label on it,

575
00:32:01,680 --> 00:32:04,720
Speaker 1: a sense of awe or wonder arises within you. It's

576
00:32:04,840 --> 00:32:09,200
Speaker 1: essence silently communicates itself to you and reflects your own

577
00:32:09,320 --> 00:32:12,200
Speaker 1: essence back to you. Now, this got me thinking about

578
00:32:12,240 --> 00:32:15,120
Speaker 1: the rather complex web of language and images that we

579
00:32:15,360 --> 00:32:18,840
Speaker 1: attached to virtually everything in life. Like, I think one

580
00:32:18,840 --> 00:32:22,720
Speaker 1: of the things that's that's neat about about Totally's advice

581
00:32:22,760 --> 00:32:25,080
Speaker 1: there is that, Yeah, when when you think about things

582
00:32:25,080 --> 00:32:27,640
Speaker 1: like a flower or a bird, there's just so many

583
00:32:27,720 --> 00:32:31,120
Speaker 1: connections your mind makes, like things that the bird or

584
00:32:31,120 --> 00:32:34,880
Speaker 1: the flower are used to represent, like sometimes symbolically, other

585
00:32:34,920 --> 00:32:38,280
Speaker 1: times metaphorically. Um, and those are going to connect to

586
00:32:38,400 --> 00:32:41,959
Speaker 1: various uh, fears and anxieties in your life, you know,

587
00:32:42,040 --> 00:32:44,160
Speaker 1: and it's where it makes it. But then at the base,

588
00:32:44,280 --> 00:32:46,000
Speaker 1: like why are you why are we dragging all of

589
00:32:46,040 --> 00:32:48,160
Speaker 1: that in? If I'm looking at a bird, if I'm

590
00:32:48,160 --> 00:32:50,440
Speaker 1: looking at a flower, and so if you can, if

591
00:32:50,480 --> 00:32:54,800
Speaker 1: you can just focus on the actual objective reality, the

592
00:32:54,840 --> 00:32:59,600
Speaker 1: actual sensory information, without dragging all of these associations into it,

593
00:32:59,840 --> 00:33:03,520
Speaker 1: you can at least, you know, some people uh have

594
00:33:03,840 --> 00:33:06,880
Speaker 1: expressed this in this feeling of peace that emerges from

595
00:33:06,920 --> 00:33:11,680
Speaker 1: that experience. And this also brought to mind a quote

596
00:33:11,680 --> 00:33:15,320
Speaker 1: from Umburdo Echos the name of the Rose. I don't

597
00:33:15,320 --> 00:33:17,680
Speaker 1: know if you remember this this part, Joe. But brother

598
00:33:17,720 --> 00:33:21,000
Speaker 1: Williams says, quote, the order that our mind imagines is

599
00:33:21,040 --> 00:33:24,160
Speaker 1: like a net, or like a ladder built to attain something.

600
00:33:24,600 --> 00:33:27,120
Speaker 1: But afterward you must throw the ladder away because you

601
00:33:27,160 --> 00:33:30,320
Speaker 1: discovered that even if it was useful, it was meaningless.

602
00:33:31,440 --> 00:33:34,320
Speaker 1: And I should point out that in this brother William

603
00:33:34,680 --> 00:33:38,800
Speaker 1: is is site. Basically this quote is a medievalized quote

604
00:33:39,160 --> 00:33:43,720
Speaker 1: of the Austrian philosopher Ludwig Wittgenstein, known as Vitckenstein's Ladder.

605
00:33:43,760 --> 00:33:46,400
Speaker 1: So it is not a medieval concept exactly, but he

606
00:33:46,440 --> 00:33:49,800
Speaker 1: has Umburdo Echo has taken it and made it medieval

607
00:33:49,960 --> 00:33:51,880
Speaker 1: so that it may come out of brother William's mouth

608
00:33:51,880 --> 00:33:55,320
Speaker 1: in this tale. Okay, So how does this connect to

609
00:33:55,320 --> 00:33:58,280
Speaker 1: Anichonism for you? Okay? So, I mean it's not a

610
00:33:58,360 --> 00:34:01,320
Speaker 1: one to one obviously, because um, you know, an Eichonism

611
00:34:01,360 --> 00:34:05,160
Speaker 1: is generally more about visual represations and art um though

612
00:34:05,200 --> 00:34:08,439
Speaker 1: the use of descriptions also becomes important in some traditions. Uh.

613
00:34:08,480 --> 00:34:11,040
Speaker 1: And the quotes I mentioned are you know, are generally

614
00:34:11,120 --> 00:34:15,920
Speaker 1: concerned with the the with aspects of objective reality again, birds, flower, stones,

615
00:34:16,000 --> 00:34:18,640
Speaker 1: et cetera. Things where you can you can behold them

616
00:34:18,680 --> 00:34:22,280
Speaker 1: and see the thing itself, uh, and strip away potentially

617
00:34:22,320 --> 00:34:26,560
Speaker 1: strip away all of these associations. But what happens when

618
00:34:26,600 --> 00:34:30,560
Speaker 1: we consider supernatural entities and deities, saints and profits or

619
00:34:30,800 --> 00:34:34,960
Speaker 1: you know, divine places as well, um, Because I think we,

620
00:34:35,080 --> 00:34:38,200
Speaker 1: you know, can generally agree if we're talking about a god,

621
00:34:38,280 --> 00:34:41,320
Speaker 1: we're talking about something that does not have an objective reality.

622
00:34:41,320 --> 00:34:44,480
Speaker 1: It has the subjective reality, you know. Um, though I

623
00:34:44,480 --> 00:34:47,480
Speaker 1: guess in general they're they're basically three ways you might

624
00:34:47,520 --> 00:34:51,080
Speaker 1: approach the concept of a god. Um. So, either our

625
00:34:51,120 --> 00:34:54,120
Speaker 1: words and images are describing something that does have a reality.

626
00:34:54,400 --> 00:34:56,319
Speaker 1: You know, you're going with the idea that that that

627
00:34:56,520 --> 00:34:59,640
Speaker 1: God or God's they have an objective reality. In our

628
00:34:59,680 --> 00:35:04,080
Speaker 1: word and images are describing something, uh that actually exists.

629
00:35:05,160 --> 00:35:06,759
Speaker 1: Another way of looking at it would be all of

630
00:35:06,760 --> 00:35:09,240
Speaker 1: our words and images are describing something that exists purely

631
00:35:09,239 --> 00:35:12,040
Speaker 1: in the domain of myth. Uh. So it is, you know,

632
00:35:12,080 --> 00:35:15,960
Speaker 1: it's it's entirely dependent upon these various depictions, but it

633
00:35:16,000 --> 00:35:20,360
Speaker 1: has its own important reality as well. But then you

634
00:35:20,360 --> 00:35:22,719
Speaker 1: could say that you could also look at it and say, well,

635
00:35:22,760 --> 00:35:26,160
Speaker 1: our words and images are describing or embellishing some feeling

636
00:35:26,320 --> 00:35:30,960
Speaker 1: or array of feelings or experiences that do have a reality. Um.

637
00:35:31,239 --> 00:35:33,840
Speaker 1: So you know, I was thinking like if I was

638
00:35:33,920 --> 00:35:36,480
Speaker 1: just if I was asked draw a picture of your hunger,

639
00:35:36,640 --> 00:35:39,000
Speaker 1: and I drew a picture of like an angry face goblin.

640
00:35:39,400 --> 00:35:41,920
Speaker 1: You know, like that is that is serving as a

641
00:35:42,120 --> 00:35:44,319
Speaker 1: like you could almost you know, lean into that and

642
00:35:44,360 --> 00:35:47,200
Speaker 1: say like this is this God represents my hunger, you know.

643
00:35:47,440 --> 00:35:50,239
Speaker 1: So it's it represents something that has an objective or

644
00:35:50,280 --> 00:35:53,960
Speaker 1: at least objective reality within me, but it is it

645
00:35:54,080 --> 00:35:59,760
Speaker 1: is not based on an actual creature or sentient existence somewhere.

646
00:36:00,040 --> 00:36:01,640
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I see what you're I think I see

647
00:36:01,640 --> 00:36:04,600
Speaker 1: what you're saying. So it is interesting how in all

648
00:36:04,640 --> 00:36:08,359
Speaker 1: of our human attempts to represent ideas like God's, there's

649
00:36:08,400 --> 00:36:13,600
Speaker 1: this constant process of bouncing back and forth between some

650
00:36:13,680 --> 00:36:16,600
Speaker 1: kind of vague sense of meaning that we feel internally

651
00:36:16,680 --> 00:36:21,799
Speaker 1: subjectively and then some external representation. Um. And so like

652
00:36:21,880 --> 00:36:25,040
Speaker 1: the uh that that maybe the way of God is depicted,

653
00:36:25,040 --> 00:36:29,280
Speaker 1: whether figurally or non figure, really represents something people feel,

654
00:36:29,400 --> 00:36:32,040
Speaker 1: some association they have with the presence of this God

655
00:36:32,200 --> 00:36:34,360
Speaker 1: or the idea of this God. But then of course

656
00:36:34,400 --> 00:36:37,480
Speaker 1: once it is depicted, that feeds back into how people

657
00:36:37,520 --> 00:36:40,759
Speaker 1: think about the God, and so it creates this feedback loop. Yeah,

658
00:36:40,800 --> 00:36:43,480
Speaker 1: and it can create all sorts of opportunities, but also

659
00:36:43,520 --> 00:36:47,160
Speaker 1: all sorts of challenges and and outright problems and depictions

660
00:36:47,239 --> 00:36:51,560
Speaker 1: of gods and key religious figures like you know, I'm

661
00:36:51,600 --> 00:36:55,680
Speaker 1: in my mind instantly goes to the various depictions of

662
00:36:55,680 --> 00:36:58,719
Speaker 1: of Jesus that you see in Christian traditions, because you

663
00:36:58,760 --> 00:37:01,479
Speaker 1: really see, you see so many different versions. You see

664
00:37:01,719 --> 00:37:04,480
Speaker 1: you know, depictions of of of Jesus as a as

665
00:37:04,520 --> 00:37:08,440
Speaker 1: a Middle Eastern individual. You see depictions of of Jesus

666
00:37:08,440 --> 00:37:11,759
Speaker 1: in which Jesus has African features, in which he has

667
00:37:11,800 --> 00:37:14,799
Speaker 1: highly Caucasian features, in which he has Asian features. You

668
00:37:14,840 --> 00:37:18,680
Speaker 1: see depictions of of Christ particularly. There's some interesting medieval

669
00:37:18,680 --> 00:37:22,360
Speaker 1: trends where that lean into the feminine nature of Christ

670
00:37:22,400 --> 00:37:26,359
Speaker 1: and depict a very feminine uh Christ, which I think

671
00:37:26,400 --> 00:37:29,600
Speaker 1: has and certainly had to the people who leaned towards

672
00:37:29,600 --> 00:37:34,160
Speaker 1: that interpretation very positive ramifications for the way they beheld

673
00:37:34,160 --> 00:37:38,120
Speaker 1: the divine, but clearly for others it was a problem. Uh.

674
00:37:38,239 --> 00:37:40,799
Speaker 1: And and they they they took issue with it. Uh.

675
00:37:40,840 --> 00:37:43,520
Speaker 1: They are also monstrous depictions of Christ where you know,

676
00:37:43,560 --> 00:37:46,759
Speaker 1: people uh where and especially in the medieval period, they

677
00:37:46,840 --> 00:37:52,320
Speaker 1: leaned into trying to use uh, fantastic variations on Christ's

678
00:37:52,320 --> 00:37:55,279
Speaker 1: swarm in order to try to relay information about theological

679
00:37:55,320 --> 00:37:59,280
Speaker 1: concepts like uh, you know, the Trinity by showing Jesus

680
00:37:59,280 --> 00:38:02,440
Speaker 1: with three heads or three faces, or there was one

681
00:38:02,480 --> 00:38:05,120
Speaker 1: I think Jesus had like a bird's knack or a

682
00:38:05,120 --> 00:38:07,880
Speaker 1: bird's beak, and it had to do with this saying

683
00:38:07,960 --> 00:38:12,279
Speaker 1: about about that the time it takes words leaving your

684
00:38:12,280 --> 00:38:15,480
Speaker 1: heart to reach your mouth, and how you know, Christ

685
00:38:15,520 --> 00:38:18,120
Speaker 1: would be very um patient in the way that he

686
00:38:18,120 --> 00:38:20,440
Speaker 1: would express himself, and therefore he has this like long

687
00:38:21,040 --> 00:38:24,000
Speaker 1: long neck and bird head stuff like that. And then

688
00:38:24,000 --> 00:38:25,880
Speaker 1: he also today, I mean, on the other side of

689
00:38:25,920 --> 00:38:28,520
Speaker 1: the feminine Christ, you also will find just at times

690
00:38:28,560 --> 00:38:32,640
Speaker 1: just laughably masculine Jesus's you know where it's like he's

691
00:38:32,680 --> 00:38:35,279
Speaker 1: just tremendously ripped, like the like the crib, like the

692
00:38:35,320 --> 00:38:41,000
Speaker 1: cross of the crucifixion is some sort of exercise machine. Sorry,

693
00:38:41,040 --> 00:38:43,239
Speaker 1: I was thinking about a specific example that came to

694
00:38:43,280 --> 00:38:45,279
Speaker 1: mind when you were talking about images of Christ from

695
00:38:45,280 --> 00:38:48,520
Speaker 1: the Middle Ages that could look monstrous if if certainly

696
00:38:48,719 --> 00:38:52,399
Speaker 1: viewed from the outside without the you know, the interpretation. Uh,

697
00:38:52,520 --> 00:38:55,799
Speaker 1: like when they're supposed to represent a theological concept. And

698
00:38:56,040 --> 00:38:58,520
Speaker 1: I was thinking about Christ Pentocrat or do you know

699
00:38:58,600 --> 00:39:01,160
Speaker 1: this one, the one where I do off hand, maybe

700
00:39:01,160 --> 00:39:03,759
Speaker 1: I would recognize it if I saw it. Uh, I

701
00:39:03,800 --> 00:39:06,400
Speaker 1: think you would, because these tend to be the images

702
00:39:06,440 --> 00:39:09,799
Speaker 1: where not always but in in some depictions, Christ is

703
00:39:09,840 --> 00:39:12,919
Speaker 1: shown as having a sort of divided face where one

704
00:39:12,960 --> 00:39:15,880
Speaker 1: side of the face looks different than the other side

705
00:39:15,880 --> 00:39:18,200
Speaker 1: of the face, like one side of the face the

706
00:39:18,320 --> 00:39:20,680
Speaker 1: eye looks different than on the other side. And I

707
00:39:20,719 --> 00:39:24,920
Speaker 1: think this is sometimes interpreted to um to represent God

708
00:39:25,000 --> 00:39:26,960
Speaker 1: in in both of his forms, Like it represents a

709
00:39:27,040 --> 00:39:31,240
Speaker 1: theological concept that God, you know, maybe both fully human

710
00:39:31,320 --> 00:39:34,200
Speaker 1: and fully divine at the same time. And that's shown

711
00:39:34,200 --> 00:39:37,800
Speaker 1: by giving him, you know, two different faces smashed together

712
00:39:37,840 --> 00:39:41,279
Speaker 1: that looked like they're drawn by two different artists. Yeah,

713
00:39:41,280 --> 00:39:45,360
Speaker 1: it's almost like Christ is is using his Instagram filter

714
00:39:45,600 --> 00:39:47,600
Speaker 1: for half of the photo and in the other half

715
00:39:47,680 --> 00:39:50,520
Speaker 1: is just you know, all natural. Yeah. I think that

716
00:39:50,600 --> 00:39:52,840
Speaker 1: the specific example I'm thinking of where the face is

717
00:39:52,880 --> 00:39:56,239
Speaker 1: divided like that is the Christ Pantocrat at the at St.

718
00:39:56,280 --> 00:40:00,200
Speaker 1: Catharine's Monastery in the Sinai Peninsula. Yes, I think that's

719
00:40:00,280 --> 00:40:01,960
Speaker 1: that looks to be what I'm looking at right now,

720
00:40:02,000 --> 00:40:04,520
Speaker 1: And yeah, it's it's a it's an interesting image especially.

721
00:40:05,120 --> 00:40:06,799
Speaker 1: I wonder what it would be like to look at

722
00:40:06,800 --> 00:40:09,080
Speaker 1: it if you did not know what was going on there,

723
00:40:09,160 --> 00:40:12,319
Speaker 1: you know, uh, you know why there appears to be

724
00:40:12,440 --> 00:40:13,719
Speaker 1: like it's I want to be clear, it's not like

725
00:40:13,719 --> 00:40:16,600
Speaker 1: a straight up batman's tooth face scenario, like you could

726
00:40:16,600 --> 00:40:18,839
Speaker 1: easily look at this image of Christ and miss what

727
00:40:18,880 --> 00:40:21,080
Speaker 1: was going on there. Yeah. So I guess one of

728
00:40:21,120 --> 00:40:22,839
Speaker 1: the things I'm trying to to say here is that, Yeah,

729
00:40:22,880 --> 00:40:27,440
Speaker 1: anytime you depict a god or a goddess or you know,

730
00:40:27,480 --> 00:40:31,120
Speaker 1: anything from a pantheon like this, anytime you depict them

731
00:40:31,160 --> 00:40:34,480
Speaker 1: as a human being, is you depict them physically, you

732
00:40:34,560 --> 00:40:38,080
Speaker 1: lean into an anthropomorphic vision of what they are. Like.

733
00:40:38,120 --> 00:40:40,320
Speaker 1: There's just so many there's so much stuff that you

734
00:40:40,400 --> 00:40:43,360
Speaker 1: end up drawing in. There's so much human body language

735
00:40:43,400 --> 00:40:49,040
Speaker 1: and and physicality. There various uh you know, cultural associations, um,

736
00:40:49,320 --> 00:40:52,120
Speaker 1: you know, etcetera like it. There's there's so many ways

737
00:40:52,160 --> 00:40:53,760
Speaker 1: that you can get it right and get it wrong

738
00:40:54,000 --> 00:40:58,360
Speaker 1: that you can convey very specific meanings. Uh, some complex

739
00:40:58,400 --> 00:41:02,319
Speaker 1: theological problem ms while you could also potentially create new

740
00:41:02,360 --> 00:41:06,799
Speaker 1: theological problems. Um, you can create heresies in the eyes

741
00:41:06,840 --> 00:41:15,920
Speaker 1: of others, etcetera. Thank Thank Now, in exploring this topic,

742
00:41:16,200 --> 00:41:18,799
Speaker 1: one can of course drift towards the absolutes traditions that

743
00:41:18,800 --> 00:41:22,360
Speaker 1: are very strict um in um an iconism and those

744
00:41:22,400 --> 00:41:26,040
Speaker 1: that don't seem particularly concerned with it. But uh, ultimately

745
00:41:26,000 --> 00:41:28,040
Speaker 1: I thought it might be more illuminating to at least

746
00:41:28,040 --> 00:41:31,320
Speaker 1: first consider a case where both seem to be employed.

747
00:41:31,800 --> 00:41:35,080
Speaker 1: So we're gonna turn to another paper from that that

748
00:41:35,280 --> 00:41:39,760
Speaker 1: same publication. Uh. This is by David L. Haberman titled

749
00:41:39,920 --> 00:41:43,440
Speaker 1: drawing Out the Iconic in the an Iconic Worship of

750
00:41:43,560 --> 00:41:47,440
Speaker 1: Meme Trees and go Varden Stones in Northern India, published

751
00:41:47,440 --> 00:41:51,160
Speaker 1: in the journal Religion. So. Haberman is a professor of

752
00:41:51,200 --> 00:41:55,000
Speaker 1: religious studies at Indiana University Bloomington's and has long been

753
00:41:55,040 --> 00:41:59,680
Speaker 1: fascinated by Hindu worshipful interaction UH as he calls it,

754
00:42:00,080 --> 00:42:02,880
Speaker 1: and an area of particular interest for him is worship

755
00:42:02,920 --> 00:42:07,759
Speaker 1: involving an iconic objects, specifically trees in northern India. He

756
00:42:07,760 --> 00:42:10,640
Speaker 1: even wrote a whole book on this particular topic inten

757
00:42:10,719 --> 00:42:14,480
Speaker 1: titled People Trees, Worship of Trees in northern India. Okay,

758
00:42:14,480 --> 00:42:16,960
Speaker 1: so this would be an example of worship of trees

759
00:42:17,080 --> 00:42:21,759
Speaker 1: that aren't just being uh worshiped as trees, but in

760
00:42:21,800 --> 00:42:25,560
Speaker 1: some sense stand in for the power of a particular god.

761
00:42:26,560 --> 00:42:28,960
Speaker 1: Right and in this article he points to the worship

762
00:42:28,960 --> 00:42:33,520
Speaker 1: of trees, mountains, and rivers as an iconic objects of devotion.

763
00:42:34,000 --> 00:42:36,960
Speaker 1: Name Trees in particular are considered to be the embodiment

764
00:42:37,320 --> 00:42:41,839
Speaker 1: of the goddess Sitala, while the stones of Mount Govarden

765
00:42:42,200 --> 00:42:45,560
Speaker 1: are the embodiment of Krishna. Now this is of course

766
00:42:45,920 --> 00:42:50,719
Speaker 1: particularly interesting because both of these deities certainly have have

767
00:42:50,880 --> 00:42:57,000
Speaker 1: described and depicted forms anthropomorphic forms in Hindu traditions. Krishna,

768
00:42:57,120 --> 00:43:00,399
Speaker 1: of course, is a major deity the eighth Avatara New

769
00:43:00,600 --> 00:43:04,759
Speaker 1: an important figure in the Mahabarata and often described as

770
00:43:04,800 --> 00:43:09,400
Speaker 1: a blueskinned humanoids, sometimes depicted as a child, even often

771
00:43:09,400 --> 00:43:14,280
Speaker 1: shown with a flute. Sitalia is an incarnation of pavaty

772
00:43:14,920 --> 00:43:17,799
Speaker 1: cure of diseases, often depicted as a maiden riding a

773
00:43:17,840 --> 00:43:21,560
Speaker 1: donkey with a broom to cleanse away the germs and

774
00:43:21,640 --> 00:43:25,200
Speaker 1: a pot uh full of pulses in cold water to

775
00:43:25,280 --> 00:43:29,120
Speaker 1: also help in the In the curing of diseases. So

776
00:43:29,600 --> 00:43:33,680
Speaker 1: Hindu iconography, of course is very rich, at very detailed,

777
00:43:33,760 --> 00:43:37,480
Speaker 1: highly symbolic, and also highly anthromorphic, or at least that's

778
00:43:37,520 --> 00:43:40,040
Speaker 1: where I think a lot of our minds tend to go. Uh,

779
00:43:40,080 --> 00:43:43,879
Speaker 1: you know, we think of these very ornate depictions of

780
00:43:43,920 --> 00:43:46,320
Speaker 1: the divine in which there are a lot of symbols,

781
00:43:46,360 --> 00:43:48,879
Speaker 1: a lot of you know, their multiple arms in many

782
00:43:48,920 --> 00:43:52,720
Speaker 1: cases holding multiple objects, and they all mean something. Likewise,

783
00:43:52,719 --> 00:43:55,440
Speaker 1: there may be a vessel a vehicle that they're writing on,

784
00:43:55,600 --> 00:43:57,799
Speaker 1: you know, and that also has meaning. And so like

785
00:43:57,840 --> 00:44:00,719
Speaker 1: the whole image is, it's conveying a lot the information.

786
00:44:01,080 --> 00:44:03,239
Speaker 1: It's not just mere uh you know, it's not just

787
00:44:03,320 --> 00:44:06,640
Speaker 1: merely a fantastic other worldly representation, though I guess there's

788
00:44:06,640 --> 00:44:08,279
Speaker 1: an aspect of it as well. But there's a lot

789
00:44:08,320 --> 00:44:11,120
Speaker 1: of information in the image. Yeah, that I would agree

790
00:44:11,120 --> 00:44:14,839
Speaker 1: with that they often feel highly informative, even sometimes maybe

791
00:44:14,880 --> 00:44:19,600
Speaker 1: kind of busy. Yeah, But the specifics that that Haberman

792
00:44:19,680 --> 00:44:22,400
Speaker 1: gets into her fascinating here because he points out that

793
00:44:22,600 --> 00:44:26,360
Speaker 1: in Banaras, on the banks of the Ganges in northern India,

794
00:44:26,600 --> 00:44:31,319
Speaker 1: you can find people worshiping Sitala, both in anthropomorphic or

795
00:44:31,480 --> 00:44:36,160
Speaker 1: iconic form and engaging in an iconic worship of the

796
00:44:36,239 --> 00:44:39,440
Speaker 1: tree as a focus that name tree that we mentioned earlier,

797
00:44:40,320 --> 00:44:44,239
Speaker 1: And he describes conversations with devotees here and points out

798
00:44:44,400 --> 00:44:48,319
Speaker 1: that both are considered important forms of the goddess um

799
00:44:48,560 --> 00:44:50,839
Speaker 1: and so this this is one of the things that's

800
00:44:50,880 --> 00:44:53,520
Speaker 1: really I really liked about this particular particular paper because

801
00:44:53,840 --> 00:44:55,560
Speaker 1: it was a lot of there are a lot of

802
00:44:55,600 --> 00:44:59,200
Speaker 1: like interviews fragments in there where he's quoting people that

803
00:44:59,280 --> 00:45:01,600
Speaker 1: he talked to about it, like asking them, well, how

804
00:45:01,680 --> 00:45:03,920
Speaker 1: do you relate to the to the god or goddess

805
00:45:03,960 --> 00:45:07,560
Speaker 1: in this form versus this other form or both? So

806
00:45:08,200 --> 00:45:12,520
Speaker 1: he just he ultimately touches on these two concepts. One

807
00:45:12,760 --> 00:45:17,040
Speaker 1: is uh murder rupa and the other is uh proctor rupa.

808
00:45:17,320 --> 00:45:21,000
Speaker 1: And the murder rupa as he describes is quote the

809
00:45:21,040 --> 00:45:24,759
Speaker 1: embodied form of divinity that has been ritually installed in

810
00:45:24,800 --> 00:45:30,040
Speaker 1: the shrine. So it's anthropomorphic shaped like shaped by human hands,

811
00:45:30,080 --> 00:45:33,719
Speaker 1: and priests have also invited the divine into it via

812
00:45:33,760 --> 00:45:39,000
Speaker 1: specific rituals that established the life breath inside of the

813
00:45:39,160 --> 00:45:43,560
Speaker 1: statue or the form. But then the proc three rupa, however,

814
00:45:43,719 --> 00:45:46,960
Speaker 1: is the natural form of divinity that appears without the

815
00:45:47,000 --> 00:45:49,839
Speaker 1: aid of any human intervention. So the idea is, yes,

816
00:45:49,880 --> 00:45:52,759
Speaker 1: the the God can be found saying this tree or

817
00:45:52,800 --> 00:45:57,200
Speaker 1: this mountain, but it is there already naturally, whereas in

818
00:45:57,239 --> 00:45:59,560
Speaker 1: the in the icon, we have to have somebody create

819
00:45:59,600 --> 00:46:02,040
Speaker 1: it and then it has to be uh, it has

820
00:46:02,080 --> 00:46:05,279
Speaker 1: to be made sacred through the intervention of humans, then

821
00:46:05,320 --> 00:46:08,279
Speaker 1: by the intervention of priests. This is the picturing of

822
00:46:08,320 --> 00:46:11,840
Speaker 1: God almost as a kind of liquid substance in a

823
00:46:11,880 --> 00:46:15,840
Speaker 1: way that can that can pour into different kinds of vessels,

824
00:46:15,840 --> 00:46:18,239
Speaker 1: and some in the natural world in which the God

825
00:46:18,280 --> 00:46:20,799
Speaker 1: has poured into already, and there are others in which

826
00:46:20,840 --> 00:46:23,560
Speaker 1: the God can can pour in once it's been prepared

827
00:46:23,600 --> 00:46:27,560
Speaker 1: and sanctified. Yeah, so the devotees here that you talked to,

828
00:46:28,400 --> 00:46:30,840
Speaker 1: he writes that they pointed to, say the tree, for example,

829
00:46:31,120 --> 00:46:34,080
Speaker 1: as the prior and most important form of the God.

830
00:46:34,120 --> 00:46:36,040
Speaker 1: Now and again these are just individuals he talked to.

831
00:46:36,120 --> 00:46:38,000
Speaker 1: This doesn't mean like this is not like a necessarily

832
00:46:38,080 --> 00:46:41,799
Speaker 1: universal opinion on the matter. But they were telling him that, yeah,

833
00:46:41,840 --> 00:46:45,600
Speaker 1: it existed before the temple, before human made images came along.

834
00:46:45,920 --> 00:46:48,160
Speaker 1: But it doesn't seem to be an either or scenario.

835
00:46:48,320 --> 00:46:51,400
Speaker 1: You can get engage with these deities in both ways.

836
00:46:51,480 --> 00:46:54,400
Speaker 1: You can choose to go iconic or an iconic, like

837
00:46:54,560 --> 00:46:57,560
Speaker 1: depending on you know which route you want to take personally.

838
00:46:57,840 --> 00:46:59,080
Speaker 1: And he writes that there does seem to be a

839
00:46:59,080 --> 00:47:03,800
Speaker 1: strong preference of some um Hindus for the natural forms.

840
00:47:04,160 --> 00:47:06,760
Speaker 1: And a lot of this comes down, uh, he writes,

841
00:47:06,800 --> 00:47:10,880
Speaker 1: to the multiple or even innumerable forms of Hindu deities.

842
00:47:11,160 --> 00:47:14,280
Speaker 1: So Krishna, for instance, I mentioned you know that sometimes

843
00:47:14,280 --> 00:47:17,080
Speaker 1: he's depicted as a as a baby. You see this

844
00:47:17,120 --> 00:47:20,920
Speaker 1: kind of like toddler Krishna, who is is kind of mischievous,

845
00:47:20,960 --> 00:47:23,560
Speaker 1: and then you see the adult Krishna. But even the

846
00:47:23,600 --> 00:47:26,799
Speaker 1: adult Krishna, depending on how he's depicted, he might might

847
00:47:26,800 --> 00:47:29,279
Speaker 1: be depicted as more of a philosopher, he might be

848
00:47:29,360 --> 00:47:33,359
Speaker 1: depicted as a strategist or a warrior um. But as

849
00:47:33,360 --> 00:47:36,960
Speaker 1: Habermin points out, this means that the fixed form of

850
00:47:37,000 --> 00:47:40,560
Speaker 1: the handcrafted icon limits you to the form it presents,

851
00:47:41,120 --> 00:47:45,840
Speaker 1: while the an iconic form allows you to engage which

852
00:47:46,000 --> 00:47:50,600
Speaker 1: with whichever version of that god you want to align with,

853
00:47:50,680 --> 00:47:53,920
Speaker 1: like which form suits you best in general or at

854
00:47:53,960 --> 00:47:57,680
Speaker 1: a given moment. That's interesting. I did not think about that,

855
00:47:58,080 --> 00:48:01,520
Speaker 1: But yeah, now that seems obvious and introspect that the

856
00:48:01,520 --> 00:48:04,839
Speaker 1: the aniconic representation of a god would seem to give

857
00:48:04,840 --> 00:48:09,239
Speaker 1: the God more power to realize different forms. It makes

858
00:48:09,280 --> 00:48:12,279
Speaker 1: the God more conceptually protean that you know, can can

859
00:48:12,320 --> 00:48:15,759
Speaker 1: be a shape shifter of sorts. Yeah. Yeah, And and

860
00:48:15,800 --> 00:48:18,120
Speaker 1: again I think it touches on like some of these

861
00:48:18,160 --> 00:48:21,160
Speaker 1: ideas that was expressing earlier about how any version, any

862
00:48:21,239 --> 00:48:23,520
Speaker 1: depiction of a of a god or a divine being

863
00:48:23,600 --> 00:48:26,319
Speaker 1: or an important religious figure, like you're going to draw

864
00:48:26,360 --> 00:48:29,520
Speaker 1: in all of these associations, and and what the one

865
00:48:29,600 --> 00:48:31,920
Speaker 1: that is attractive to this person may not be attractive

866
00:48:31,960 --> 00:48:34,200
Speaker 1: to this person, the one the the the like the

867
00:48:34,320 --> 00:48:36,680
Speaker 1: version of Krishna that is important to you in the

868
00:48:36,680 --> 00:48:38,279
Speaker 1: morning might not be the one that you need in

869
00:48:38,320 --> 00:48:40,239
Speaker 1: the evening. Uh. That sort of thing that seems to

870
00:48:40,280 --> 00:48:42,680
Speaker 1: be the point of what he's saying here. Oh and

871
00:48:42,719 --> 00:48:45,319
Speaker 1: by the way, with in particular when we're talking about

872
00:48:45,400 --> 00:48:51,799
Speaker 1: Krishna Um, it's the So there's this this mountain, Mount Govardan,

873
00:48:52,239 --> 00:48:56,200
Speaker 1: and this mountain itself may be seen as an an

874
00:48:56,400 --> 00:49:00,520
Speaker 1: iconic focus, but also there's a tradition of using stones

875
00:49:00,680 --> 00:49:05,080
Speaker 1: from the mountain gearage stones and uh and I'll get

876
00:49:05,120 --> 00:49:08,160
Speaker 1: into a little bit of the details about how uh

877
00:49:08,280 --> 00:49:10,440
Speaker 1: some people interact with these stones here in just a minute.

878
00:49:10,680 --> 00:49:14,920
Speaker 1: But let's turn back to the name trees um so

879
00:49:15,160 --> 00:49:17,520
Speaker 1: Haybrimamin points out that this is just one of several

880
00:49:17,640 --> 00:49:21,600
Speaker 1: key sacred Hindu trees uh And there are sacred trees

881
00:49:21,640 --> 00:49:24,440
Speaker 1: in most cultures, and some scholars think that tree worship

882
00:49:24,640 --> 00:49:27,120
Speaker 1: might well be one of the most archaic forms of worship.

883
00:49:27,560 --> 00:49:30,920
Speaker 1: There are important symbols that are trees found in Buddhism

884
00:49:31,560 --> 00:49:34,480
Speaker 1: as well, and um and and they and even in

885
00:49:34,520 --> 00:49:37,320
Speaker 1: Buddhism they also have often take on this an iconic

886
00:49:37,760 --> 00:49:40,719
Speaker 1: focus as well. But the name tree in particular is

887
00:49:40,760 --> 00:49:44,200
Speaker 1: long lived. It has medicinal uses and they were that,

888
00:49:44,480 --> 00:49:46,480
Speaker 1: you know, stuff from the name tree was used in

889
00:49:46,520 --> 00:49:50,960
Speaker 1: treatments for pox uh. And also they are incarnations of Satalia.

890
00:49:51,239 --> 00:49:53,880
Speaker 1: And he writes that some sacred trees are said to

891
00:49:53,920 --> 00:49:57,600
Speaker 1: take on darker qualities at night um, which reminds me

892
00:49:57,640 --> 00:50:00,480
Speaker 1: a little bit of our discussions of beans, you know,

893
00:50:00,800 --> 00:50:03,879
Speaker 1: the idea that at night, maybe some sacred trees are

894
00:50:03,920 --> 00:50:06,480
Speaker 1: not safe to be around. But he stresses that that's

895
00:50:06,520 --> 00:50:08,480
Speaker 1: not the case with the name. The name is sacred

896
00:50:08,760 --> 00:50:10,800
Speaker 1: and positive all of the time. It's the sort of

897
00:50:10,840 --> 00:50:13,840
Speaker 1: sacred tree that you would want in your yard. You

898
00:50:13,840 --> 00:50:15,560
Speaker 1: would want it as a kind of protector for you

899
00:50:15,600 --> 00:50:19,719
Speaker 1: and your family. And this is interesting. Worshippers don't tend

900
00:50:19,800 --> 00:50:22,000
Speaker 1: to worship all the name tree, so it's not a

901
00:50:22,000 --> 00:50:23,960
Speaker 1: matter of like that name tree and that name tree,

902
00:50:23,960 --> 00:50:25,319
Speaker 1: and this one and the one down the road and

903
00:50:25,360 --> 00:50:28,680
Speaker 1: the one uptown, but rather one or two that they've

904
00:50:28,800 --> 00:50:32,440
Speaker 1: forged a relationship with. Now, as for the stones of

905
00:50:32,600 --> 00:50:37,720
Speaker 1: mount good Varden Habremin points to an account in the

906
00:50:37,719 --> 00:50:41,760
Speaker 1: the Bakavita Purana in which Krishna takes on two forms

907
00:50:41,760 --> 00:50:44,360
Speaker 1: at once, both as a boy lifting up the mountain

908
00:50:44,440 --> 00:50:47,440
Speaker 1: and the mountain itself, and the mountain again is sacred.

909
00:50:47,440 --> 00:50:50,080
Speaker 1: The mountain is Krishna. The sacred stones of the mountain

910
00:50:50,120 --> 00:50:52,759
Speaker 1: are Krishna. So you might engage with Krishna or the

911
00:50:52,840 --> 00:50:56,160
Speaker 1: idea of Krishna through the contemplation of the mountain itself.

912
00:50:56,520 --> 00:50:58,759
Speaker 1: But as Habren points out, that's kind of it's a

913
00:50:58,760 --> 00:51:01,160
Speaker 1: big mountain. You can't that might be a little challenging

914
00:51:01,200 --> 00:51:03,520
Speaker 1: to really like take it all in. So you have

915
00:51:03,560 --> 00:51:06,280
Speaker 1: this particular stone from it that you forged a bond

916
00:51:06,320 --> 00:51:09,160
Speaker 1: with and this is important, like this is your stone,

917
00:51:09,520 --> 00:51:12,000
Speaker 1: but it is also Chrishna, so you have ownership of it,

918
00:51:12,400 --> 00:51:15,840
Speaker 1: but it itself is also the divine and so you

919
00:51:15,880 --> 00:51:18,200
Speaker 1: know it's it's on one level. You know, we're used

920
00:51:18,239 --> 00:51:19,799
Speaker 1: the point here where we're thinking about. Okay, I can

921
00:51:19,840 --> 00:51:23,359
Speaker 1: see where like the stone is an an iconic version

922
00:51:23,400 --> 00:51:25,840
Speaker 1: of Krishna. I can look at it, and I can

923
00:51:25,960 --> 00:51:29,480
Speaker 1: I can imagine these various anthropomorphic ideas of Krishna, but

924
00:51:29,560 --> 00:51:33,640
Speaker 1: it itself is not anthropomorphic. But there's also what Haberman

925
00:51:33,719 --> 00:51:37,919
Speaker 1: calls the quote intentional anthropomorphism of all of this, and

926
00:51:37,920 --> 00:51:40,960
Speaker 1: and this seems to be quite literal, not merely leaning

927
00:51:41,000 --> 00:51:44,360
Speaker 1: into the human like qualities of the stone, but actually

928
00:51:44,400 --> 00:51:49,600
Speaker 1: adding quote eyes, ornaments, clothing, and sometimes even arms to

929
00:51:49,719 --> 00:51:53,839
Speaker 1: the garage stones. The process is is said to give

930
00:51:54,120 --> 00:51:58,120
Speaker 1: form to the formless, to imbue personality, and above all

931
00:51:58,239 --> 00:52:02,200
Speaker 1: allow for the growth of relationship, to strengthen this bond

932
00:52:02,560 --> 00:52:06,560
Speaker 1: between the worshiper and this um, this item that is

933
00:52:06,600 --> 00:52:09,040
Speaker 1: aiding them in their worship. So I think this is

934
00:52:09,080 --> 00:52:12,719
Speaker 1: a great example of how the the iconic versus an

935
00:52:12,920 --> 00:52:16,439
Speaker 1: iconic categories are not always cleanly separated, and they form

936
00:52:16,480 --> 00:52:20,520
Speaker 1: a kind of spectrum where each tradition can easily blend

937
00:52:20,600 --> 00:52:23,160
Speaker 1: into the other one. So here here it sounds like

938
00:52:23,160 --> 00:52:27,920
Speaker 1: you've got something that begins as a classical an iconic

939
00:52:28,040 --> 00:52:31,440
Speaker 1: index of of divine presence. It's a object from the

940
00:52:31,520 --> 00:52:34,239
Speaker 1: natural world that doesn't really take a human or animal form,

941
00:52:34,280 --> 00:52:37,880
Speaker 1: but just indicates to the believer that somehow the divine

942
00:52:37,960 --> 00:52:40,480
Speaker 1: is present when you are in the company of this object.

943
00:52:40,840 --> 00:52:43,680
Speaker 1: But then you can start dressing it up in increasingly

944
00:52:43,760 --> 00:52:47,960
Speaker 1: anthropomorphic ways, right, yeah, And if if anyone wants to

945
00:52:48,000 --> 00:52:51,880
Speaker 1: look up an example of this, uh, the garage stones.

946
00:52:52,160 --> 00:52:54,239
Speaker 1: The way that it's spelled in this article is G

947
00:52:54,560 --> 00:52:58,680
Speaker 1: I R I R A J. And yeah, there's there.

948
00:52:58,760 --> 00:53:01,400
Speaker 1: It's it's beautiful the pmples I was looking at in

949
00:53:01,760 --> 00:53:06,319
Speaker 1: the photos provided with this this paper, because there's it's

950
00:53:06,360 --> 00:53:10,160
Speaker 1: not it's not like full on anthropomorphic. It's um like

951
00:53:10,160 --> 00:53:12,640
Speaker 1: like I don't want to overstate it, like it doesn't

952
00:53:12,680 --> 00:53:15,800
Speaker 1: look like a little person, but like you can certainly

953
00:53:15,880 --> 00:53:19,120
Speaker 1: still see the formless in the form, if you know

954
00:53:19,160 --> 00:53:20,640
Speaker 1: what I mean. You know, it's like it's not like

955
00:53:20,640 --> 00:53:23,120
Speaker 1: a straight up Mr. Potato Head or something. And actually

956
00:53:23,160 --> 00:53:25,799
Speaker 1: there's documentation of not just the stones, but the same

957
00:53:25,840 --> 00:53:29,400
Speaker 1: thing happening with the neeme trees right right, and with

958
00:53:29,480 --> 00:53:32,520
Speaker 1: the name trees. This same practice takes the form of

959
00:53:32,840 --> 00:53:36,520
Speaker 1: first wrapping the trees with fabric and then eventually attaching

960
00:53:36,840 --> 00:53:39,799
Speaker 1: a face mask of the goddess to the tree as well.

961
00:53:40,200 --> 00:53:42,160
Speaker 1: And again this is these are quite quite beautiful. You

962
00:53:42,200 --> 00:53:44,880
Speaker 1: can look up examples of of this. But one of

963
00:53:44,920 --> 00:53:48,680
Speaker 1: the interesting things with this is that he points out

964
00:53:48,719 --> 00:53:50,840
Speaker 1: that there's a process with the name tree. So you

965
00:53:50,840 --> 00:53:52,680
Speaker 1: don't just add all of these things at once, you

966
00:53:52,760 --> 00:53:55,799
Speaker 1: kind of you you start with the bear tree, and

967
00:53:55,840 --> 00:53:58,320
Speaker 1: then you begin to add the wrap and eventually the face.

968
00:53:58,840 --> 00:54:02,120
Speaker 1: So again Haberman right that this anthropomorphism it serves to

969
00:54:02,160 --> 00:54:06,120
Speaker 1: intensify the personal connection with the god or goddess. It

970
00:54:06,160 --> 00:54:08,959
Speaker 1: brings the worshiper closer, and it's also said to draw

971
00:54:09,120 --> 00:54:11,680
Speaker 1: the deity out of the stone or in this case

972
00:54:11,719 --> 00:54:15,080
Speaker 1: the tree more as well, which I find quite interesting

973
00:54:15,480 --> 00:54:17,760
Speaker 1: and he he From here, he goes on to discuss

974
00:54:17,840 --> 00:54:20,800
Speaker 1: just the idea of anthropomorphism in general, and he argues

975
00:54:20,840 --> 00:54:24,880
Speaker 1: that these examples should force us to reconsider anthropomorphism to

976
00:54:24,920 --> 00:54:28,319
Speaker 1: a certain extent, because, especially in in the modern world,

977
00:54:28,400 --> 00:54:30,120
Speaker 1: and in the Western world, there are a lot of

978
00:54:30,200 --> 00:54:34,360
Speaker 1: negative connotations that are that are thrown at anthropomorphism, especially

979
00:54:34,400 --> 00:54:37,200
Speaker 1: in the sciences. And and we've discussed this as well,

980
00:54:37,239 --> 00:54:41,560
Speaker 1: like there's there's this um you know, you shouldn't anthropomorphizes everything,

981
00:54:41,920 --> 00:54:44,480
Speaker 1: especially if it's a study. You don't want to anthropomorphize

982
00:54:44,760 --> 00:54:50,360
Speaker 1: your say, experimental rodents, right. That anthropomorphism in the context

983
00:54:50,360 --> 00:54:53,279
Speaker 1: of the sciences usually is is a pejorative because it

984
00:54:53,280 --> 00:54:57,760
Speaker 1: means you are making unjustified assumptions. You are assuming human

985
00:54:57,840 --> 00:55:00,480
Speaker 1: like qualities of saying animal or something like that when

986
00:55:00,480 --> 00:55:03,840
Speaker 1: those aren't necessarily actually there. Yeah, and and even in

987
00:55:03,880 --> 00:55:06,680
Speaker 1: the arts too, you see this trend um Joe, and

988
00:55:06,760 --> 00:55:09,120
Speaker 1: I assume you encountered this as well. And like creative

989
00:55:09,120 --> 00:55:11,640
Speaker 1: writing courses and all um. I remember I had a

990
00:55:11,680 --> 00:55:18,080
Speaker 1: creative writing professor who who who talked about uh, student

991
00:55:18,160 --> 00:55:24,040
Speaker 1: writers anthropomorphizing like mad gods, which I have always stuck to.

992
00:55:24,560 --> 00:55:25,800
Speaker 1: I think I know what you mean, But do you

993
00:55:25,880 --> 00:55:28,480
Speaker 1: do you have like an example in mind, like um,

994
00:55:28,600 --> 00:55:30,799
Speaker 1: just in the way you describe everything, Like if you're

995
00:55:30,800 --> 00:55:34,200
Speaker 1: setting the scene where instead of saying, you know it

996
00:55:34,239 --> 00:55:36,439
Speaker 1: was it was a dark and stormy night, you might

997
00:55:36,520 --> 00:55:39,480
Speaker 1: just go overboard and say like the you know, like

998
00:55:39,640 --> 00:55:43,560
Speaker 1: the storm clouds were battering and assaulting the castle. Um,

999
00:55:43,640 --> 00:55:47,279
Speaker 1: clouds were angry. Yeah, the clouds were angry, etcetera. And

1000
00:55:47,320 --> 00:55:49,120
Speaker 1: if you you know, it's one of those things where

1001
00:55:49,120 --> 00:55:51,080
Speaker 1: I get it's like spices and something right, and certainly

1002
00:55:51,239 --> 00:55:54,680
Speaker 1: you can overdo it and and uh, and I think

1003
00:55:54,680 --> 00:55:59,200
Speaker 1: that's what my teacher was, it was criticizing in that case. Yeah,

1004
00:55:59,200 --> 00:56:00,880
Speaker 1: I know what you mean. Now, I think it's especially

1005
00:56:00,880 --> 00:56:03,399
Speaker 1: true of a lot of like younger writers who are

1006
00:56:03,440 --> 00:56:06,600
Speaker 1: trying to find ways to write expressively. One of the

1007
00:56:06,640 --> 00:56:10,080
Speaker 1: easiest ways to do that is to imbue non human

1008
00:56:10,360 --> 00:56:14,040
Speaker 1: objects with human characteristics. That that's just like one of

1009
00:56:14,080 --> 00:56:16,040
Speaker 1: the easiest places to go to if you're trying to

1010
00:56:16,080 --> 00:56:19,640
Speaker 1: find a way to say something in a creative way, right,

1011
00:56:20,000 --> 00:56:22,680
Speaker 1: But then, yeah, ultimately it ends up overbalanced. And that's

1012
00:56:22,760 --> 00:56:25,759
Speaker 1: ultimately not how we interact with the world usually though,

1013
00:56:26,600 --> 00:56:29,400
Speaker 1: as we'll get to I mean, anthropomorphism is something that

1014
00:56:29,400 --> 00:56:33,920
Speaker 1: our brain easily does, so a case can also be

1015
00:56:34,040 --> 00:56:38,600
Speaker 1: made that we we do live in a highly anthropomorphic world. Um.

1016
00:56:38,600 --> 00:56:43,120
Speaker 1: In this paper, though, Habrman points to eighteenth century philosopher

1017
00:56:43,200 --> 00:56:47,400
Speaker 1: David Hume, who argued that anthropomorphism was a cognitive strategy

1018
00:56:47,480 --> 00:56:50,279
Speaker 1: for coping with insecurity about the world and that it

1019
00:56:50,360 --> 00:56:53,920
Speaker 1: was an aspect of quote vulgar religion and ignorance. And

1020
00:56:53,960 --> 00:56:58,120
Speaker 1: these attitudes also influenced Edward B. Tyler, who's regarded as

1021
00:56:58,160 --> 00:57:01,760
Speaker 1: the founding father of anthropology, who also had a negative

1022
00:57:01,800 --> 00:57:06,279
Speaker 1: view of the anthropomorphism of non living things. So for

1023
00:57:06,320 --> 00:57:09,640
Speaker 1: a while, anthropomorphism was just looked down upon, almost as

1024
00:57:09,680 --> 00:57:12,920
Speaker 1: a kind of insult to human personhood at times, like

1025
00:57:13,040 --> 00:57:15,719
Speaker 1: you know, we're the only well we're the only persons,

1026
00:57:16,440 --> 00:57:18,680
Speaker 1: you know. Don't don't turn everything else into a person

1027
00:57:18,680 --> 00:57:22,600
Speaker 1: as well? It reduces what we have. But Habrmin points

1028
00:57:22,600 --> 00:57:25,640
Speaker 1: out that the more we learn about, say, facial recognition,

1029
00:57:25,680 --> 00:57:28,200
Speaker 1: and the human brain and its role and how we function,

1030
00:57:28,600 --> 00:57:31,880
Speaker 1: that this casts a different light on anthropomorphism, especially the

1031
00:57:31,920 --> 00:57:36,240
Speaker 1: sort of anthropomorphism on display in the prior examples. Here,

1032
00:57:36,680 --> 00:57:41,720
Speaker 1: He charges, quote anthropomorphism creates an empathetic connection with non

1033
00:57:41,840 --> 00:57:45,040
Speaker 1: human agents, So what's wrong with this if it benefits

1034
00:57:45,080 --> 00:57:48,000
Speaker 1: the human involved? Right? Uh? And Haberman argues, you know

1035
00:57:48,080 --> 00:57:51,360
Speaker 1: what's wrong with it if it benefits some targets of

1036
00:57:51,440 --> 00:57:56,400
Speaker 1: anthropomorphism as well. Such as Mother Earth and environmental campaigns.

1037
00:57:56,440 --> 00:57:58,880
Speaker 1: You know, the idea that well, you know, maybe somebody

1038
00:57:58,920 --> 00:58:02,440
Speaker 1: doesn't care as much about about helping out the environment

1039
00:58:02,480 --> 00:58:05,200
Speaker 1: if they're thinking about it is just place and setting.

1040
00:58:05,200 --> 00:58:08,760
Speaker 1: And you know, this, this this unpersoned world we live in.

1041
00:58:09,000 --> 00:58:11,080
Speaker 1: But if you start calling it mother nature, if you

1042
00:58:11,120 --> 00:58:14,280
Speaker 1: start sort of dragging the you know, basically the rough

1043
00:58:14,320 --> 00:58:17,800
Speaker 1: idea of the goddess into it, then uh, then it

1044
00:58:17,880 --> 00:58:20,200
Speaker 1: makes people maybe care a little bit more because you're

1045
00:58:20,200 --> 00:58:23,600
Speaker 1: not just hurting the planet, you're hurting a person. You're

1046
00:58:23,680 --> 00:58:27,000
Speaker 1: hurting an individual. I can totally see that. But I

1047
00:58:27,040 --> 00:58:29,800
Speaker 1: can also actually see the exact reverse, where you know,

1048
00:58:30,120 --> 00:58:34,320
Speaker 1: you've probably heard people say things anthropomorphizing nature in a

1049
00:58:34,360 --> 00:58:36,720
Speaker 1: way that's like, uh, we don't need to worry. You know,

1050
00:58:36,800 --> 00:58:39,240
Speaker 1: mother Nature can take care of herself. You know, we

1051
00:58:39,240 --> 00:58:41,360
Speaker 1: we don't need to. It doesn't matter what we do,

1052
00:58:41,440 --> 00:58:44,040
Speaker 1: She'll take care of herself. Right. And then well, of

1053
00:58:44,120 --> 00:58:46,800
Speaker 1: course also there are examples of people saying, oh, mother

1054
00:58:46,880 --> 00:58:49,640
Speaker 1: Nature strikes back, you know, the wrath of mother Nature.

1055
00:58:50,240 --> 00:58:52,560
Speaker 1: And I don't know, I guess you could you could

1056
00:58:52,560 --> 00:58:56,000
Speaker 1: probably make a case for their situations like that, where

1057
00:58:56,160 --> 00:58:58,760
Speaker 1: you start talking about things as just an act of

1058
00:58:58,840 --> 00:59:02,120
Speaker 1: God as opposed as to an active environment or uh,

1059
00:59:02,160 --> 00:59:06,600
Speaker 1: you know. A part of saying, um, you know climate change, etcetera,

1060
00:59:06,880 --> 00:59:09,960
Speaker 1: you you can sort of take human responsibility out of

1061
00:59:09,960 --> 00:59:13,760
Speaker 1: the scenario by saying, well, clearly the gods are at it. Again,

1062
00:59:13,840 --> 00:59:18,240
Speaker 1: what can you do? So in closing Hyman Rights quote

1063
00:59:18,240 --> 00:59:22,080
Speaker 1: with regard to the cases under consideration, the anthropomorphic adornment

1064
00:59:22,160 --> 00:59:25,960
Speaker 1: of a name tree or govarden stone brings forth its

1065
00:59:25,960 --> 00:59:29,640
Speaker 1: divine personality. It is always there, but the ornamentation makes

1066
00:59:29,680 --> 00:59:34,560
Speaker 1: it more fully perceptible. The anthropomorphic appendages, then are key

1067
00:59:34,600 --> 00:59:37,400
Speaker 1: to the development of a close relationship with divinity in

1068
00:59:37,440 --> 00:59:42,200
Speaker 1: these forms, and as we have seen, intimate relation reality

1069
00:59:42,240 --> 00:59:45,880
Speaker 1: is the very goal of the religion associated with Govardin

1070
00:59:45,960 --> 00:59:49,960
Speaker 1: stones and certain trees. I conclude by hypothesizing, then that

1071
00:59:50,080 --> 00:59:55,840
Speaker 1: the transformation of an iconic objects into anthropomorphic icons, what

1072
00:59:56,280 --> 01:00:02,200
Speaker 1: Michael Actor calls anthropomorphic iconicity, most commonly occurs and in

1073
01:00:02,200 --> 01:00:07,400
Speaker 1: increasing degrees in a religious cultural context wherein relationality is

1074
01:00:07,480 --> 01:00:10,160
Speaker 1: highly valued. Now, obviously this is again it is a

1075
01:00:10,160 --> 01:00:12,400
Speaker 1: particular case within a particular culture, and we do have

1076
01:00:12,400 --> 01:00:16,040
Speaker 1: to be careful about drawing, you know, universal aspects of uh,

1077
01:00:16,560 --> 01:00:20,320
Speaker 1: an iconism out of these examples. But I think this

1078
01:00:20,400 --> 01:00:24,040
Speaker 1: is very interesting to consider, you know, the the idea,

1079
01:00:24,120 --> 01:00:28,640
Speaker 1: this sort of interplay between um, the aniconic and the iconic,

1080
01:00:28,880 --> 01:00:32,800
Speaker 1: and and even engaging with with concepts of deities by

1081
01:00:32,880 --> 01:00:35,800
Speaker 1: utilizing both of these. Yeah, yeah, And I do wonder

1082
01:00:35,880 --> 01:00:38,240
Speaker 1: that does raise a good question like, yeah, is um

1083
01:00:38,880 --> 01:00:45,360
Speaker 1: would anthropomorphizing or iconic representations be more common uh in

1084
01:00:45,560 --> 01:00:49,480
Speaker 1: religions or interpretations of religions that highly value the idea

1085
01:00:49,560 --> 01:00:53,120
Speaker 1: of a personal relationship with the God or an intimacy

1086
01:00:53,680 --> 01:00:58,880
Speaker 1: between the believer and the God. Yeah. So I think

1087
01:00:58,920 --> 01:01:01,480
Speaker 1: this whole scenario does it raises a number of questions,

1088
01:01:01,520 --> 01:01:04,200
Speaker 1: you know, like what happens when we give God a face?

1089
01:01:04,640 --> 01:01:08,360
Speaker 1: What happens when we we work to prevent that face

1090
01:01:08,440 --> 01:01:12,320
Speaker 1: from manifesting or we limit or prohibit the ways in

1091
01:01:12,400 --> 01:01:16,080
Speaker 1: which that face is manifested? Is there a tendency to

1092
01:01:16,320 --> 01:01:19,480
Speaker 1: give God a face anyway, even if you know, through

1093
01:01:19,560 --> 01:01:23,400
Speaker 1: mental images, if visual images are prohibited, and so what's

1094
01:01:23,480 --> 01:01:26,160
Speaker 1: and also what sort of things can happen when someone

1095
01:01:26,200 --> 01:01:28,920
Speaker 1: else gives God a face? For you? Uh? You know,

1096
01:01:28,960 --> 01:01:31,600
Speaker 1: I again that comes to mind when I think about

1097
01:01:31,600 --> 01:01:34,760
Speaker 1: these various visual representations of Jesus that you see in

1098
01:01:34,800 --> 01:01:38,640
Speaker 1: different modes of Christianity, Like what happens when someone says, hey,

1099
01:01:38,680 --> 01:01:41,800
Speaker 1: here's your here's your big muscle Jesus. Uh. You know

1100
01:01:41,920 --> 01:01:44,240
Speaker 1: that that may not be the version of of Jesus

1101
01:01:44,240 --> 01:01:46,040
Speaker 1: that really resonates with you the most. It might be

1102
01:01:46,080 --> 01:01:48,920
Speaker 1: a form that scares you a bet and it's is

1103
01:01:49,080 --> 01:01:50,600
Speaker 1: you know that you get into a lot of these

1104
01:01:50,640 --> 01:01:54,040
Speaker 1: complications with specific imagery like that. I think some of

1105
01:01:54,040 --> 01:01:56,480
Speaker 1: the questions you just raised will really be illuminated by

1106
01:01:56,520 --> 01:01:59,400
Speaker 1: some examples we look at in episode two. I was

1107
01:01:59,440 --> 01:02:02,920
Speaker 1: gonna talk in this episode about the concept of divine emptiness,

1108
01:02:02,920 --> 01:02:04,840
Speaker 1: but I think we need to call part one here

1109
01:02:05,280 --> 01:02:08,040
Speaker 1: and we can come back to that in the next episode. Now,

1110
01:02:08,040 --> 01:02:09,960
Speaker 1: in the meantime, you know, obviously there's more that we

1111
01:02:09,960 --> 01:02:11,840
Speaker 1: want to unpack on this topic, but feel free to

1112
01:02:11,840 --> 01:02:14,440
Speaker 1: go ahead and right in with with your thoughts. Um.

1113
01:02:14,520 --> 01:02:18,200
Speaker 1: Sometimes those are those are really interesting emails where they

1114
01:02:18,240 --> 01:02:20,960
Speaker 1: come in sort of halfway between a conversation. So sometimes

1115
01:02:21,000 --> 01:02:22,440
Speaker 1: you bring up something that we're going to get to

1116
01:02:22,480 --> 01:02:26,080
Speaker 1: in the next episode, um, but sometimes not. So you know,

1117
01:02:26,120 --> 01:02:29,160
Speaker 1: it's it's always great to hear from our listeners. In

1118
01:02:29,200 --> 01:02:30,880
Speaker 1: the meantime, as you would like to check out other

1119
01:02:30,880 --> 01:02:33,600
Speaker 1: episodes of Stuff to Blow Your Mind, you can find

1120
01:02:33,800 --> 01:02:35,919
Speaker 1: them in the Stuff to Blow Your Mind podcast feed,

1121
01:02:35,960 --> 01:02:38,760
Speaker 1: which you can find wherever you get your podcasts and

1122
01:02:38,800 --> 01:02:40,880
Speaker 1: wherever that happens to be. We just ask the rate,

1123
01:02:40,920 --> 01:02:43,640
Speaker 1: review and subscribe if the platform allows you to do so.

1124
01:02:43,960 --> 01:02:46,800
Speaker 1: Huge thanks, as always to our excellent audio producer Seth

1125
01:02:46,880 --> 01:02:49,160
Speaker 1: Nicholas Johnson. If you would like to get in touch

1126
01:02:49,200 --> 01:02:51,320
Speaker 1: with us with feedback on this episode or any other,

1127
01:02:51,400 --> 01:02:53,840
Speaker 1: to suggest a topic for the future, just to say hello,

1128
01:02:53,920 --> 01:02:56,400
Speaker 1: you can email us at contact at stuff to Blow

1129
01:02:56,440 --> 01:03:06,120
Speaker 1: your Mind dot com. Stuff to Blow Your Mind is

1130
01:03:06,160 --> 01:03:08,840
Speaker 1: production of I Heart Radio. For more podcasts for my

1131
01:03:08,880 --> 01:03:11,960
Speaker 1: heart Radio, visit the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or

1132
01:03:11,960 --> 01:03:25,520
Speaker 1: wherever you're listening to your favorite shows.