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Speaker 1: This is the Meat Eater Podcast coming at you shirtless, severely,

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Speaker 1: bug bitten, and in my case, underwear listening podcast. You

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Speaker 1: can't predict anything. The Meat Eater Podcast is brought to

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Speaker 1: you by First Light. Whether you're checking trail cams, hanging

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Speaker 1: deer stands, or scouting for ELK. First Light has performance

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Speaker 1: apparel to support every hunter in every environment. Check it

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Speaker 1: out at first light dot com, f I R S

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Speaker 1: T L I t e dot com. If you listen

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Speaker 1: to last week's show, you heard me and Moe Fallon

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Speaker 1: discussing my new History Channel show, which is called Hunting History,

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Speaker 1: and that show premiere is January twenty eighth at ten pm.

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Speaker 1: So you heard us talk about a handful of the

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Speaker 1: episodes on that podcast episode. But now I can go

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Speaker 1: watch the actual damn things by tuning into the History Channel.

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Speaker 1: Any Ray twenty eight, ten pm Eastern, nine Central. Do

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Speaker 1: your own math as you work westward. Hope you enjoy it.

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Speaker 1: You'll learn a lot, you'll have some laughs, you'll be entertained.

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Speaker 1: Check it out. Join Today by US Fish and Wildlife

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Speaker 1: undercover agent retired. Right when you came in, I told

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Speaker 1: you don't look retired.

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Speaker 2: Yes, retired, but I wouldn't. I wouldn't call myself an

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Speaker 2: undercover agent.

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Speaker 1: Well that's what Krin called you.

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Speaker 3: Oh all right, okay, straight up space.

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Speaker 1: Fish and wildlife special agent. Yeah, ed newcomer retired because

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Speaker 1: tell everybody why, I had no idea.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, well, I've been retired for two years, and that's

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Speaker 2: only because all federal agents have to retire when they

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Speaker 2: turned fifty seven, so I hit mandatory retirement.

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Speaker 1: Now there's no old federal agent.

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Speaker 2: There are some exceptions occasionally, like if somebody's working on

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Speaker 2: a particular case or something, they may extend their retirement

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Speaker 2: so they can finish up that case.

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Speaker 3: I see, but it's rare.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, and you got to come in before thirty seven,

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Speaker 4: you said.

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Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, you have to enter the academy honor before

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Speaker 2: your thirty seven.

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Speaker 4: So it's not like you can do it. It's like

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Speaker 4: a second, like you have a career and then have

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Speaker 4: another career doing what you did.

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Speaker 3: I guess you did.

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Speaker 2: That's what I did. But it was close. Yeah, I

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Speaker 2: became a federal agent.

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Speaker 3: I went.

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Speaker 2: I arrived at the Federal Law Enforcement Academy literally about

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Speaker 2: three weeks before I turned thirty seven, So I just

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Speaker 2: made it.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, and I retired. Yeah, it's kind of nice.

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Speaker 1: Except so jealous. Man.

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Speaker 3: The problem is, you know, you got a pretty good gig, not.

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Speaker 1: As good as you got well, unless you're broke.

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Speaker 3: I'll tell you what.

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Speaker 2: Being a special agent, most agents I know go right

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Speaker 2: to mandatory retirement because they love it. They love their job.

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Speaker 2: Being a federal agent is awesome, but being a special

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Speaker 2: agent for US Fish and Wildlife Service, it's ten times awesome.

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Speaker 2: I was so my identity was so tied up in

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Speaker 2: my badge. Oh it was hard to retire.

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Speaker 3: Is it hurt?

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Speaker 2: And I still I'm very jealous of the of the

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Speaker 2: people I know who are still agents because I talk to.

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Speaker 3: Them and I'm like, oh, that sounds like fun. I

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Speaker 3: want to do that.

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Speaker 1: Really? You miss it?

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Speaker 2: Oh totally, yeah, every day every day. That's why it's

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Speaker 2: fun to come talk about it with people like you,

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Speaker 2: because it's just fun for me to reminisce. And I

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Speaker 2: like making sure people know that, you know, these agents

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Speaker 2: are out there and they're they're doing a really good job,

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Speaker 2: and they're working their asses off for people.

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Speaker 3: You know.

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Speaker 5: It sounds like, look, just reading from the notes, that

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Speaker 5: a lot of people are interested in that job.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, we get.

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Speaker 2: You know, I was never involved in the hiring process

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Speaker 2: when we would hire the national agents, but I was

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Speaker 2: always told by people at headquarters we'd get you know, normally,

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Speaker 2: when we have a class of new agents, it's maybe

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Speaker 2: thirty to thirty five agents at a time that go

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Speaker 2: through the academy, and for those thirty five seats, easily

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Speaker 2: three thousand plus applicants easily more. Sometimes sometimes they just

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Speaker 2: cut it off because they get too many, and it's

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Speaker 2: not it becomes a burden for the you know, managers

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Speaker 2: to go through all the applicants to find the gyms.

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Speaker 1: Okay, you work with wildlife, carry a gun?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and that I scold badge with a buff bag

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Speaker 2: it's got a fish and a duck on them.

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Speaker 5: Is that part of the reason that you didn't start

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Speaker 5: that job until thirty seven years of age?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so totally you know, this is totally straight up.

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Speaker 2: I came out of law school interested in the job.

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Speaker 2: I went to law school and I thought, okay, you know.

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Speaker 1: Finish law school.

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Speaker 2: Oh yeah, yeah, a law degree, great background to be

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Speaker 2: a federal agent law enforcement in general. And I always thought, well,

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Speaker 2: if I don't make it into the academy or I

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Speaker 2: don't get hired by law enforcement.

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Speaker 3: I got a job, right, you'll slum it as a

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Speaker 3: slum it as a lawyer.

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Speaker 2: But yeah, so I started applying pretty much as soon

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Speaker 2: as I came out of law school. And what age

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Speaker 2: was that, Well, see twenty six you come out. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: I graduated from law school twenty six. Yeah, so I

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Speaker 2: applied the first time they were opening, so total, I

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Speaker 2: applied four times before I got hired.

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Speaker 1: Did you do the bar exam?

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Speaker 3: Oh? Yeah, yeah, I'm admitted at full on lawyer. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: I was admitted in two states, Washington and Colorado, and

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Speaker 2: I practiced law for ten years, kind of accidentally because

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Speaker 2: I was waiting to get hired by It's a wildlife service.

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Speaker 1: Are there a lot of agents who are lawyers?

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Speaker 3: Not a lot?

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Speaker 2: There are some FBI hires a lot, But in the service,

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Speaker 2: I'm not sure how many of us are eight or lawyers,

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Speaker 2: but there's quite a few.

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Speaker 1: It probably helps you when you're working a case because

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Speaker 1: you're probably able to analyze your evidence and analyze your

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Speaker 1: case from a somewhat objective perspective of how things are

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Speaker 1: going to look in court and what the arguments are

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Speaker 1: going to be. Yeah, making that up No, that's one

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Speaker 1: hundred percent right.

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Speaker 2: When I did practice law, I was a prosecutor, and

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Speaker 2: so what I kept seeing was, you know, I'm limited

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Speaker 2: to what the detectives are bringing me. So whatever they

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Speaker 2: do in their investigation, they give me their report, and

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Speaker 2: that's what I have to go with, right, And every

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Speaker 2: time i'd read an investigator's report, I'd be like, oh, man,

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Speaker 2: that sounds like a lot of fun, and I'll bet

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Speaker 2: I could have done that better than they did it.

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Speaker 2: So when I became an agent, I kind of brought

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Speaker 2: that prosecutor background with me and I kind of knew,

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Speaker 2: all right, as I'm building the case against bad guys,

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Speaker 2: this is what the prosecutor's going to want, this is

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Speaker 2: what they're going to need, this is what a jury's

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Speaker 2: going to need to hear, and this is how we're

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Speaker 2: going to avoid losing an appeal. So it's very helpful

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Speaker 2: to have a law degree, especially if you come from

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Speaker 2: a kind of criminal justice background.

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Speaker 3: Like I did.

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Speaker 1: Did you have a wildlife background?

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Speaker 2: No, And that's why it was hard for me to

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Speaker 2: get noticed by the Fish and Wildlife Service. I finally,

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Speaker 2: like I reached out to this special agent in charge

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Speaker 2: who was in charge of the West Coast, a guy

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Speaker 2: named Dave McMullen, who is just an awesome US Fish

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Speaker 2: and Wildlife agent. And I said, you know, I'm really

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Speaker 2: interested in this job. I can't get an interview. I

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Speaker 2: can't even get a call back, right And he was

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Speaker 2: very nice and he asked, you know, send me your resume.

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Speaker 3: Let me see.

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Speaker 2: He called me right back and he said, yeah, I

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Speaker 2: can tell you. The reason you're not getting interviewed is

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Speaker 2: there's nothing on your resume that indicates that you have

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Speaker 2: any interest in wildlife and and yeah, it's kind of

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Speaker 2: an eye opening. I don't know why I didn't think

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Speaker 2: of it. I just assumed law degree was one of

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Speaker 2: the educational qualifiers. I thought, you know, that's going to

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Speaker 2: get me in. So he gave me some great advice here.

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Speaker 2: I was an assistant Attorney General in the state of Washington,

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Speaker 2: but on weekends I was volunteering with the Washington Department

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Speaker 2: official Wildlife game Wardens and going out and.

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Speaker 3: Doing whatever they wanted.

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Speaker 2: A resume, yeah, yeah, to do whatever they wanted me

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Speaker 2: they wanted the job I did well, these guys would

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Speaker 2: have me out on on the you know, Puget Sound

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Speaker 2: middle of winter, pulling shrimp traps so they could check

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Speaker 2: shrimp traps. And that's a hard that's hard work to

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Speaker 2: pull a shrimp trap by hand.

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Speaker 3: I don't know if you were volunteering.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I loved it. I couldn't wait. I couldn't wait

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Speaker 2: to do it.

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Speaker 5: We've all volunteered to pull a few shrimps out of

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Speaker 5: the depths.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: That sounds funny, don't it, because most people pay to

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Speaker 1: go pull shrimp. You've got to buy your license and everything.

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Speaker 4: Like what made you want the job in the first place.

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Speaker 4: Like as a kid, were you into wildlife and hunting

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Speaker 4: and fishing.

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Speaker 2: Or I've never I don't hunt. I fished before, but

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Speaker 2: I never got into hunting.

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Speaker 4: You just like nature and wild life.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: I grew up in Denver and so you know, my

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Speaker 2: my dad mom took us camping up to the mountains

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Speaker 2: all the time, and I love it. I mean, you know,

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Speaker 2: back in the day, we would the whole family's car

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Speaker 2: would pull over if we saw a hawk on a

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Speaker 2: fence post by the side of the road. So it's

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Speaker 2: kind of ingrained in us not shooting at it, not

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Speaker 2: shooting at But that's the first thing I want to

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Speaker 2: get into. Yeah, oh sure, because this is the thing

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Speaker 2: Krin like thet I gotta tell you.

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Speaker 1: No, yeah, the hawk parks. But Krinn, I hope other

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Speaker 1: guests aren't listening. Krin doesn't usually get excited about a guest.

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Speaker 1: Krinn has a baseline excitement for all guests. Okay, Krinn

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Speaker 1: holds a baseline excitement for all guests. But she had

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Speaker 1: a like a speak a spike on a spike, a

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Speaker 1: high spike for you coming on, inspired in part by

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Speaker 1: her her discovery of roller pigeons and the trouble that

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Speaker 1: roller pigeon enthusiasts find themselves in. And so I want

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Speaker 1: to I want to get into this just as a

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Speaker 1: way to lay the ground where what you for what

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Speaker 1: exactly you spend your time on?

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Speaker 3: You know?

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Speaker 1: Sure, hence my joke about shooting hose. Yeah, no, I'm

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Speaker 1: getting ahead of us. I got ahead of us.

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Speaker 3: I got it.

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Speaker 2: But to answer your question, I I was interested in

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Speaker 2: law enforcement from a real young age I had, you know,

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Speaker 2: I was one of these five year olds that ran

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Speaker 2: around thinking they were going to save the family if

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Speaker 2: there was a home invasion.

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Speaker 3: You know.

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Speaker 2: Uh, so you know, growing up in Denver, I'm thinking

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Speaker 2: I'll be a Denver cop. You know, someday That's kind

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Speaker 2: of what I figured. And then I saw at some

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Speaker 2: point in my life, I really there was such a

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Speaker 2: thing as a game warden, and I thought, well, cop

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Speaker 2: cop for wildlife. That sounds pretty cool. I'll do that.

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Speaker 2: That really interested me. And then it wasn't until I

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Speaker 2: was in college that I just literally stumbled across a

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Speaker 2: job announcement for US Fish and Wildlife special Agent. And

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Speaker 2: when I saw that, you know, it's like, Oh, that's

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Speaker 2: like the FBI for wildlife.

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Speaker 3: That's what I want to do, right.

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Speaker 2: You get the most jurisdiction, you have the most authority,

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Speaker 2: you have the most opportunity to make a difference and

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Speaker 2: do something good, you know.

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Speaker 3: So kind of where I led.

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Speaker 1: And then did you spend your whole career in La? Yeah?

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Speaker 3: I did.

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Speaker 2: And that's another funny story because it's going back to this.

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Speaker 2: A special Agent in charge, David McMullen, when he was

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Speaker 2: talking to me about applying and how to get interviewed,

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Speaker 2: he said, look at you got to go to LA.

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Speaker 2: And I said, LA, I don't want to go to LA.

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Speaker 2: I'm a rocky mountain boy. I want to work in

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Speaker 2: the Rockies. I'm interested in you know, Rocky Mountain wildlife issues.

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Speaker 2: That's where I want to work as a special agent.

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Speaker 2: He said, No, you got to go to La. He goes,

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Speaker 2: there's this little there's this little, tiny firecracker of a

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Speaker 2: agent down there, a woman named Marie Paladini.

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Speaker 3: She's a lawyer. You'll get along great. And that's where

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Speaker 3: the action is. That's where the wildlife trafficking is. That's

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Speaker 3: where all the big cases are.

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Speaker 4: You got to go to LA because it's a big

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Speaker 4: port city.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, big port city and a big you know, urban

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Speaker 2: center where there's just every kind of culture you can

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Speaker 2: imagine there. So La New York Miami. If you want

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Speaker 2: to be a special agent in the Fish and Wildlife

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Speaker 2: Service and really learn about international wildlife trafficking and interstate trafficking,

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Speaker 2: you got to go to one of these big ports

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Speaker 2: La New York and where Miami, Miami is another big one.

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Speaker 3: Guy.

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Speaker 6: We need, like, you know, a prime time CSI type show.

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Speaker 2: I'm all in I'm all in picture that yeah, so

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Speaker 2: can I. I've I've pitched it before, you know, like

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Speaker 2: n c I S. But Fish and wild if it'd

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Speaker 2: be way better?

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Speaker 5: Oh yeah, superhero saving animals.

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Speaker 1: Every episode they'd be making you rescue cats and dogs.

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Speaker 1: Well picture cute little kittens and stuff.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, that's actually that's something else we should

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Speaker 2: probably talk about because a lot of people who initially

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Speaker 2: apply for the service, they sometimes not a lot, but

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Speaker 2: some people think that it's going to be about rescuing animals.

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Speaker 2: And I got to tell you, in twenty years of

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Speaker 2: doing that job, I rescued, literally rescued an animal less

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Speaker 2: than half a dozen times. Because most of the time,

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Speaker 2: the animals you're dealing with are they're done right, even

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Speaker 2: if they're alive in the trade, they're not going back

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Speaker 2: to the wild. And so it's what you're trying to

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Speaker 2: do is stop the wildlife crime to protect future animals,

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Speaker 2: not the ones you're dealing with right there. So you know,

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Speaker 2: if you get upset about seeing dead animals or animals

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Speaker 2: mistreated and you can't you can't translate that into Okay,

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Speaker 2: I'm in law enforcement moment and do something about this,

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Speaker 2: and you're going to be emotionally crushed by that. This

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Speaker 2: is not the job for you because it's not about

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Speaker 2: rescuing animals, about rescuing species, but not animals.

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Speaker 1: What's the case you worked it would help people up

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Speaker 1: top here that would help people kind of best understand

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Speaker 1: the work you were doing.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and I'll give you that example. But let me

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Speaker 2: just say that we have agents based all over the

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Speaker 2: United States, right, and so where you're based is going

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Speaker 2: to dictate pretty much what you're doing.

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Speaker 1: Right.

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Speaker 2: So, for example, our agents here in Montana, you know,

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Speaker 2: before wolves were delisted, they worked a lot of wolf

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Speaker 2: poaching cases. They still work grizzly bear cases to determine

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Speaker 2: whether or not it's self defense or not, or whether

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Speaker 2: it's a straight up poaching case. Got agents in the

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Speaker 2: Southeast work on different things than agents in the Northwest, right,

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Speaker 2: because there's different animals there. There's different species listed under

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Speaker 2: the Endangered Species Act, or there's different animals trafficked. So

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Speaker 2: the experiences between an agent based in Bozeman and an

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Speaker 2: agent based in Los Angeles are huge, got it right?

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Speaker 2: And I have never done some of the stuff that

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Speaker 2: the agents in Bozeman have done. I've always wanted to,

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Speaker 2: but you know, I've never done a grizzly bear poaching

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Speaker 2: crime scene because that doesn't happen in Los Angeles. So anyway,

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Speaker 2: you know, a typical excuse me, a typical case that

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Speaker 2: I might have handled in LA involved trafficking of some wildlife,

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Speaker 2: whether alive or dead, for commercial purposes. And so you know,

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Speaker 2: early in my career I worked on a lot of

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Speaker 2: caviar trafficking cases involving Russians. There's a lot of Russians

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Speaker 2: in LA and they all trafficked in caviar, not all

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Speaker 2: of them, but you know, the cavyr traffickers were Russians.

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Speaker 2: And then you know, I had an insect trafficking case,

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Speaker 2: I had endangered fish trafficking case. So it's very variable.

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Speaker 1: Is the caviar when you're working a caviar case, is

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Speaker 1: it caviar coming in or caviar going out? And does

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Speaker 1: caviar coming in mad to you because it's someone else's.

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Speaker 2: Problem, Yes, so with and that's that's actually a good

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Speaker 2: point because sometimes it's animals going out. And and we

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Speaker 2: saw a change in that over the years. When I

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Speaker 2: first started in the early two thousands, we were dealing

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Speaker 2: with mostly wildlife coming into the United States. So things

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Speaker 2: like beluga caviar out of the former Russian republics right

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Speaker 2: so poached there, yeah, exactly, and listed under the US

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Speaker 2: Endangered Species Act, So it makes it illegal to import export.

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Speaker 2: I got, yeah, that makes sense. Yeah, so that's how

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Speaker 2: we would get involved. And and and the United States

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Speaker 2: is kind of unique because we do have the Endangered

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Speaker 2: Species Act, which lists animals for protection that don't live here,

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Speaker 2: and not all countries are like that. We we have

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Speaker 2: taken an interest in helping to preserve the world's you know,

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Speaker 2: important wildlife. Tigers, for example, we don't have tigers here

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Speaker 2: in the wild, but they're listed as endangered under our law,

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Speaker 2: so it's illegal just for someone to kill.

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Speaker 3: One or move.

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Speaker 1: That's that's never curred me. I had no idea.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it's kind of neat, isn't it.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I've never thought about that before. We list.

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Speaker 2: Exactly, well, fish in Russia exactly Yeah. And so yeah,

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Speaker 2: the idea is, you know, we want the entire world's

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Speaker 2: environment to be there for everyone. When when I worked

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Speaker 2: in Africa as an agent, a lot of times Africans

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Speaker 2: would would push back on me that Americans are too

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Speaker 2: pushy about conservation. And I used to tell them, I'd say,

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Speaker 2: to the whole room, I'd say, how many people have

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Speaker 2: been to the US. Very few people would raise their hand,

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Speaker 2: how many people want to come to the US. Everybody

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Speaker 2: raised their hand and they'd say, well, if you come

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Speaker 2: to the US, would you like to see bison?

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Speaker 3: Would you like to see a bald.

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Speaker 2: Eagle in the wild? Would you like to see a bear?

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Speaker 2: Everybody raises their hand, right, same thing if I ask

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Speaker 2: all you guys, hey, you want to go to Africa

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Speaker 2: and see some lions? Yeah, we'd all be on plane tomorrow, right.

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Speaker 2: So we want other countries in the world to protect

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Speaker 2: their wildlife so that weak Americans can go there and

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Speaker 2: spend money to see.

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Speaker 3: It, hunt it, whatever.

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Speaker 2: But you know, we want them to protect that stuff,

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Speaker 2: you know, so we can go, but we're going to

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Speaker 2: protect it here in the US so people from other

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Speaker 2: countries can come spend money in the US and see it.

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Speaker 2: And it's just I think you everybody in this room

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Speaker 2: probably appreciates that wildlife has an intrinsic value, right. It's

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Speaker 2: just something we enjoy seeing, stalking, trapping, hunting, whatever you do. Right,

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Speaker 2: But we want it to stay there. We don't want

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Speaker 2: to use it up. We want it to be there.

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Speaker 2: So fish and wildlife plays a really important role in

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Speaker 2: making sure that the species around the world remain wild

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Speaker 2: for us, all.

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Speaker 1: Of us, excuse me, all going to call from it.

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Speaker 1: Tell me about a roller pigeon, which I had never

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Speaker 1: heard of before.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so a roller pigeon is a it's not in

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Speaker 2: wild animals, and domestic pigeon looks just like the pigeon

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Speaker 2: you'd see at the Donald's parking lot, really, but they

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Speaker 2: come from Birmingham, England originally, and all roller pigeons are

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Speaker 2: descending some of the original Birmingham rollers. And what what

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Speaker 2: they are really is a bird that's bred to have

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Speaker 2: a seizure in flight.

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Speaker 1: And I've had a lot of conversations I've had pet pigeons.

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Speaker 1: I have never I had never this is totally new

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Speaker 1: to me, has synchronized synchronized seizures.

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Speaker 5: Well, I know that I've told you my story that

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Speaker 5: I shared with you before we started recording before, but

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Speaker 5: I know we've had the conversation now on that I

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Speaker 5: feel like we had it on the podcast about name

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Speaker 5: for him.

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Speaker 2: There's there's a different type of pigeon called a tumbler,

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Speaker 2: but the tumblr really does its tumbling on the ground,

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Speaker 2: which is kind of weird. But no, the ones that

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Speaker 2: roll in flight, they're rollers.

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Speaker 1: What do you mean they have a seizure.

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Speaker 2: So that's The only way I can describe it is

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Speaker 2: that while they're flying, if you're watching them, and the

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Speaker 2: guys and gals who are involved in a roller pigeon

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Speaker 2: hobby would would disagree with me. They would say, we

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Speaker 2: train them to do that. They don't train them to

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Speaker 2: do that. Okay, there's no way they're training these birds. Now,

400
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Speaker 2: they're breeding them to have this behavior. And if you

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Speaker 2: watch them, they'll fly. When a roller pigeon hobbyist or

402
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Speaker 2: you know, competitors flying their birds, they fly in a kit,

403
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Speaker 2: and a kit is about fifteen birds, and they'll basically

404
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Speaker 2: they fly in an orbit above your property. You let

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Speaker 2: them out, and you let them out when they're hungry,

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Speaker 2: so they fly, but they're not going anywhere, so they're

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Speaker 2: kin to come back and get fed. And they fly

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Speaker 2: in an orbit together. And usually when they make either

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Speaker 2: a right or left hand turn, the lead bird there's

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Speaker 2: usually a leader out in the front, will be have

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Speaker 2: a seizure. That's the only way to describe it. They

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Speaker 2: they whip their heads back, their wings lock up up,

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Speaker 2: and they arch their backs and they start to flip backwards.

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Speaker 2: And what I notice, what I think is going on,

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Speaker 2: is I think that you breed the leader to have

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Speaker 2: a seizure on a right or a left hand turn.

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Speaker 2: The other birds you breed to have seizures when they

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Speaker 2: see the leader have a seizure. And that's how complicated

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Speaker 2: it can get. And these guys are very sophisticated about

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Speaker 2: how they breed and to win a competition, if all

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Speaker 2: of us in this room were in a competition, for

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Speaker 2: me to win, my birds need to fly together in

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Speaker 2: that kit and they need to roll together as a.

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Speaker 3: So it looks like a waterfall. Yeah, it looks like

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Speaker 3: a waterfall. It's really cool.

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Speaker 2: And the trick, of course is you got to make

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Speaker 2: sure they'd recover before they hit the ground because.

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Speaker 3: They'll kill themselves.

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Speaker 2: And so a lot of a lot of birds die

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Speaker 2: because they hit the ground or they hood a building

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Speaker 2: before they recover from their little seizure.

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Speaker 3: So how long is a normal seizure or the second seconds? Okay,

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Speaker 3: that's a few seconds.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, but it looks neat right, It kind of looks

435
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Speaker 2: like a waterfall if they're doing it right.

436
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Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean it was. It was I don't know

437
00:21:06,560 --> 00:21:09,480
Speaker 5: how to describe it beautiful really, but it's just weird. Yeah,

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Speaker 5: I mean, it's you're like, wow, I didn't know that

439
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Speaker 5: could be a thing.

440
00:21:13,640 --> 00:21:14,120
Speaker 3: That's a thing.

441
00:21:14,200 --> 00:21:16,480
Speaker 2: And then they're graded based on how well they roll,

442
00:21:16,640 --> 00:21:19,960
Speaker 2: and then somebody this thing's a world competition. There's something

443
00:21:20,000 --> 00:21:22,840
Speaker 2: called the World Cup, and if you win the World Cup,

444
00:21:23,119 --> 00:21:26,879
Speaker 2: you can sell your pigeons to other they're good breeders, right,

445
00:21:26,920 --> 00:21:30,159
Speaker 2: because you've got high quality rollers, so you can you

446
00:21:30,240 --> 00:21:33,399
Speaker 2: can then start selling the birds that you breed as

447
00:21:33,480 --> 00:21:35,399
Speaker 2: breeders to other people who want to compete and.

448
00:21:35,440 --> 00:21:36,280
Speaker 3: Have this status.

449
00:21:36,640 --> 00:21:38,840
Speaker 6: How much money is in that, Like, they.

450
00:21:38,760 --> 00:21:42,000
Speaker 2: Don't make any money in the competitions, they make money

451
00:21:42,040 --> 00:21:44,880
Speaker 2: selling their birds. Yeah, so this is a status thing.

452
00:21:44,960 --> 00:21:47,000
Speaker 2: You know. You you want to be the World Cup

453
00:21:47,160 --> 00:21:48,760
Speaker 2: champion as a status deal.

454
00:21:49,040 --> 00:21:51,160
Speaker 1: In the US, what is the roller capital?

455
00:21:52,480 --> 00:21:53,840
Speaker 3: You like the city? Yeah?

456
00:21:54,040 --> 00:21:54,399
Speaker 1: Where is it?

457
00:21:54,480 --> 00:21:58,040
Speaker 2: Big? It's big and all over. It's kind of interesting.

458
00:21:59,080 --> 00:22:02,760
Speaker 2: It's big and inner city l A. You know, Mike

459
00:22:02,800 --> 00:22:04,199
Speaker 2: Tyson has roller pigeons.

460
00:22:04,200 --> 00:22:07,199
Speaker 1: He's I knew he was a pigeon fancy roller pigeons.

461
00:22:07,280 --> 00:22:08,320
Speaker 3: Yeah, he's into rollers.

462
00:22:08,880 --> 00:22:09,879
Speaker 6: We're gonna go down a.

463
00:22:11,480 --> 00:22:15,280
Speaker 2: Deep rabbit hole, you know, downtown New York City on

464
00:22:15,320 --> 00:22:18,800
Speaker 2: the roofs of houses. You'll see your roller pigeon setups, But.

465
00:22:18,840 --> 00:22:21,160
Speaker 1: When you see it, when I see a pigeon keeper,

466
00:22:21,640 --> 00:22:23,840
Speaker 1: what was that movie with Forrest Whitaker, He had pigeons

467
00:22:24,960 --> 00:22:29,560
Speaker 1: Phil Phil Phil. Come on, dude, it's got the word

468
00:22:29,600 --> 00:22:30,119
Speaker 1: ghost in it.

469
00:22:30,840 --> 00:22:35,800
Speaker 4: Ghost ghost dog, the what's his name?

470
00:22:38,119 --> 00:22:40,800
Speaker 6: Famous from the Crying Game, The Way of the Samurai

471
00:22:41,280 --> 00:22:41,800
Speaker 6: Ghost Dog.

472
00:22:42,000 --> 00:22:42,200
Speaker 3: Yeah.

473
00:22:42,480 --> 00:22:45,760
Speaker 1: Yeah, So if you see a pigeon fancier, I always

474
00:22:45,800 --> 00:22:47,600
Speaker 1: called him pigeon fancier because I didn't know about this

475
00:22:47,640 --> 00:22:50,359
Speaker 1: whole their aspect to it. Yeah, Are they mostly roller

476
00:22:50,440 --> 00:22:52,800
Speaker 1: people or there are other kinds of pigeon fancier.

477
00:22:52,560 --> 00:22:55,520
Speaker 2: Lots of other kind of pigeons. There's there's homing pigeons. Uh,

478
00:22:56,040 --> 00:22:58,439
Speaker 2: there's you know, these decorative pigeons you see maybe at

479
00:22:58,480 --> 00:23:01,520
Speaker 2: the National Western Stock Show on a Denver that kind

480
00:23:01,520 --> 00:23:01,919
Speaker 2: of stuff.

481
00:23:04,280 --> 00:23:06,880
Speaker 1: So let's get into how roller pigeon enthusiasts have gotten

482
00:23:06,920 --> 00:23:07,320
Speaker 1: in trouble.

483
00:23:07,359 --> 00:23:12,680
Speaker 5: I was gonna say, selling their good rollers is legal, yes, correct, Yeah,

484
00:23:12,960 --> 00:23:18,600
Speaker 5: but what part of rollering pigeon fanciers their activity is not?

485
00:23:19,520 --> 00:23:19,720
Speaker 3: Yeah?

486
00:23:19,920 --> 00:23:20,879
Speaker 5: Where do you get involved?

487
00:23:20,960 --> 00:23:24,359
Speaker 2: How does a fish and wildlife agent get involved? So,

488
00:23:25,480 --> 00:23:27,719
Speaker 2: as you can imagine, when a pigeon has a seizure

489
00:23:27,760 --> 00:23:30,320
Speaker 2: in mid flight, especially a whole flock of them. Every

490
00:23:30,480 --> 00:23:33,719
Speaker 2: raptor within a mile or two is going to make

491
00:23:33,760 --> 00:23:36,359
Speaker 2: a bee line for that little like that flog Oh

492
00:23:36,440 --> 00:23:39,280
Speaker 2: yeah right, yeah, it's like it's like the deer that's

493
00:23:39,320 --> 00:23:41,240
Speaker 2: got the limp right, it's going to draw all the

494
00:23:41,280 --> 00:23:45,320
Speaker 2: predators right to it. So, yeah, hawks and falcons, particularly

495
00:23:45,400 --> 00:23:49,639
Speaker 2: juveniles like juvenile Cooper hawks, juvenile redtails that are you know,

496
00:23:49,800 --> 00:23:53,359
Speaker 2: learning to hunt anyway, they go right for these totally.

497
00:23:53,920 --> 00:23:56,560
Speaker 2: And yeah, they can come in and take out your

498
00:23:56,680 --> 00:24:00,560
Speaker 2: best birds. And yeah, so these guys get really annoyed

499
00:24:00,640 --> 00:24:02,600
Speaker 2: that the hawks come in and kill their roller pigeons,

500
00:24:02,640 --> 00:24:07,119
Speaker 2: so they start killing hawks. And honestly roller uh homer

501
00:24:07,480 --> 00:24:12,119
Speaker 2: homing pigeon fanatics and and there's big money in homing

502
00:24:12,200 --> 00:24:15,120
Speaker 2: pigeon competitions. They kill hawks too. And in fact, that's

503
00:24:15,160 --> 00:24:17,320
Speaker 2: how I got onto this whole roller pigeon dealer.

504
00:24:17,359 --> 00:24:21,040
Speaker 4: Is what about paragrine falcons because you know they're yeah

505
00:24:21,160 --> 00:24:23,960
Speaker 4: in big urban yeah areas.

506
00:24:23,680 --> 00:24:26,199
Speaker 2: Now same because especially since they hunt on the fly,

507
00:24:26,720 --> 00:24:29,960
Speaker 2: they go after roller pigeons real real, real good. So

508
00:24:30,119 --> 00:24:32,280
Speaker 2: it just it just depends on what hawks are in

509
00:24:32,359 --> 00:24:36,240
Speaker 2: the area. Cooper's hawks are also aerial hunters, so they're

510
00:24:36,359 --> 00:24:39,280
Speaker 2: more common than the paragrine. But yeah, peregrines get involved

511
00:24:39,320 --> 00:24:42,000
Speaker 2: in this as well, and that's how US Fish and

512
00:24:42,040 --> 00:24:44,600
Speaker 2: Wildlife Service agent gets involved because of course, all raptors

513
00:24:44,640 --> 00:24:49,000
Speaker 2: are protected by the Migratory Bird Treaty Act. It's pretty straightforward.

514
00:24:49,040 --> 00:24:52,040
Speaker 2: You kill a raptor and you're you're violating the mbt A.

515
00:24:52,280 --> 00:24:56,040
Speaker 1: So tell me exactly how this would flow to you. Yeah, So, like,

516
00:24:56,119 --> 00:24:58,399
Speaker 1: what what happens that you become aware of? Right?

517
00:24:58,600 --> 00:25:01,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, So what what happened with me is I'm working

518
00:25:01,880 --> 00:25:05,000
Speaker 2: in Los Angeles and I you know, I'm doing my

519
00:25:05,160 --> 00:25:07,159
Speaker 2: job as an agent, so I'm pretty well connected, like

520
00:25:07,280 --> 00:25:10,440
Speaker 2: with the wildlife rehab places and I've got sources around.

521
00:25:11,080 --> 00:25:14,480
Speaker 2: Somebody calls me and says, hey, we got an injured

522
00:25:14,760 --> 00:25:18,000
Speaker 2: cooper sock came into our rehabilitation center and it's got

523
00:25:18,000 --> 00:25:21,640
Speaker 2: a gunshot wound. So that piques my interest because that's illegal.

524
00:25:22,400 --> 00:25:25,560
Speaker 2: And normally this would be a fairly low priority case

525
00:25:25,640 --> 00:25:27,679
Speaker 2: for the Fish and Wildlife Service in LA because we're

526
00:25:27,720 --> 00:25:32,240
Speaker 2: working on wildlife trafficking cases, organized criminal activity ongoing, right.

527
00:25:32,200 --> 00:25:34,040
Speaker 3: Involving a lot of money and wildlife.

528
00:25:34,560 --> 00:25:37,200
Speaker 2: But so happens I had nothing going on that day,

529
00:25:37,840 --> 00:25:39,639
Speaker 2: and I felt like taking getting out of the office,

530
00:25:39,960 --> 00:25:41,880
Speaker 2: so I said, hey, I'll come up and take a look.

531
00:25:42,560 --> 00:25:45,320
Speaker 2: So I drive up to the North LA that's part

532
00:25:45,359 --> 00:25:48,600
Speaker 2: of the LA that's burning right now, and I find

533
00:25:48,640 --> 00:25:50,720
Speaker 2: out when I get there there's another hawk showed up

534
00:25:50,720 --> 00:25:55,920
Speaker 2: in the same guy's front yard dead, another bullet wound.

535
00:25:56,560 --> 00:25:59,359
Speaker 2: So I actually treated it like a crime scene, and

536
00:25:59,600 --> 00:26:05,800
Speaker 2: I which, what had they been shot quite?

537
00:26:06,000 --> 00:26:06,760
Speaker 3: Not quite that bad?

538
00:26:07,000 --> 00:26:09,960
Speaker 4: What had they been shot with like a shotgun or so?

539
00:26:10,320 --> 00:26:15,640
Speaker 2: These were twenty two caliber pellets pump action pellets, which

540
00:26:15,800 --> 00:26:19,080
Speaker 2: interestingly can be traced through ballistics.

541
00:26:19,160 --> 00:26:19,320
Speaker 3: Yeah.

542
00:26:19,960 --> 00:26:21,679
Speaker 2: Yeah, they come out of a rifled barrel, so they

543
00:26:21,760 --> 00:26:24,400
Speaker 2: leave they leave marks on those twenty two caliber pellets

544
00:26:24,640 --> 00:26:27,840
Speaker 2: if it's a pump action rifled barrel, which you know

545
00:26:27,920 --> 00:26:32,040
Speaker 2: the good ones are, sure so. But they do use

546
00:26:32,080 --> 00:26:35,600
Speaker 2: shotguns and they'll they also will use If they use

547
00:26:35,600 --> 00:26:38,520
Speaker 2: a shotgun, they like to use subsonic rounds. Some of

548
00:26:38,560 --> 00:26:41,399
Speaker 2: them will put these sound dampeners, these huge long barrels

549
00:26:41,440 --> 00:26:44,480
Speaker 2: on the end of it. That gun was called a

550
00:26:44,560 --> 00:26:46,240
Speaker 2: metro gun. I think did you ever hear of a

551
00:26:46,320 --> 00:26:49,480
Speaker 2: metro gun. It's like an extra barrel. You attached to

552
00:26:49,600 --> 00:26:52,000
Speaker 2: an eight seventy and it's it's about four and a

553
00:26:52,040 --> 00:26:55,120
Speaker 2: half feet long, So you end up with this insanely

554
00:26:55,240 --> 00:26:56,719
Speaker 2: long eight seventy.

555
00:26:56,880 --> 00:26:58,080
Speaker 3: But yeah, it quiets it down.

556
00:26:58,440 --> 00:26:59,680
Speaker 4: They're shooting them perched.

557
00:27:00,840 --> 00:27:02,880
Speaker 3: No, they'll get them on the fly with the shotguns.

558
00:27:03,000 --> 00:27:06,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, with the with the pellet guns. They'll do it approached. Yeah,

559
00:27:06,880 --> 00:27:09,399
Speaker 2: they'll wait for him. A lot of times, the predicted

560
00:27:09,440 --> 00:27:13,000
Speaker 2: Cooper socks. They'll come sit right on the pigeon fanciers

561
00:27:13,560 --> 00:27:16,760
Speaker 2: lofts and they'll just walk back and forth, and it's

562
00:27:16,800 --> 00:27:20,879
Speaker 2: easy pickings. So I didn't do the chalk around the

563
00:27:20,960 --> 00:27:23,520
Speaker 2: dead bird. But what I did do was I canvased

564
00:27:23,520 --> 00:27:25,760
Speaker 2: the neighborhood. I went and started knocking on doors and

565
00:27:26,000 --> 00:27:28,440
Speaker 2: just asking questions of neighbors who happened to be home,

566
00:27:29,240 --> 00:27:32,320
Speaker 2: and be a question you'd ask, uh, you know, identify,

567
00:27:32,359 --> 00:27:35,439
Speaker 2: You do the classic federal agent flip of your credentials,

568
00:27:35,480 --> 00:27:38,119
Speaker 2: and you identify yourself. You tell them you're investigating a

569
00:27:38,280 --> 00:27:41,600
Speaker 2: possible wildlife crime in their neighborhood. That gets their interests.

570
00:27:41,600 --> 00:27:44,439
Speaker 2: They want to hear more. And you start telling them

571
00:27:44,480 --> 00:27:47,480
Speaker 2: that you know, you're investigating some hawks being killed, and

572
00:27:47,560 --> 00:27:50,880
Speaker 2: you explain the MBTA, because nobody understands, nobody knows has

573
00:27:50,920 --> 00:27:54,439
Speaker 2: heard about the MBTA explained that it's illegal to kill hawks,

574
00:27:54,560 --> 00:27:57,200
Speaker 2: and then you know, if you got the bad guy's

575
00:27:57,240 --> 00:27:59,200
Speaker 2: house there, you're going to get a certain reaction and

576
00:27:59,240 --> 00:28:01,600
Speaker 2: you're going to know. But most of the time, people

577
00:28:01,640 --> 00:28:04,320
Speaker 2: are very shocked, very concerned that somebody's shooting in their

578
00:28:04,359 --> 00:28:07,639
Speaker 2: neighborhood in LA and they love hawks. They don't want

579
00:28:07,640 --> 00:28:11,600
Speaker 2: to see hawks killed. And inevitably, as happened in that investigation,

580
00:28:11,800 --> 00:28:13,560
Speaker 2: some people started to tell me, oh, yeah, every once

581
00:28:13,560 --> 00:28:15,120
Speaker 2: in a while, I hear these loud pops. I don't

582
00:28:15,119 --> 00:28:17,560
Speaker 2: know where they're coming from. One lady told me she

583
00:28:17,640 --> 00:28:19,640
Speaker 2: found a big bird dead in her yard with big

584
00:28:19,760 --> 00:28:22,679
Speaker 2: yellow feet. I'm like, well that was probably that's probably

585
00:28:22,720 --> 00:28:26,439
Speaker 2: a lot so I knew him in an area, right.

586
00:28:26,680 --> 00:28:28,760
Speaker 2: And finally I get to a house and I'm like, well,

587
00:28:28,800 --> 00:28:32,560
Speaker 2: tell me about your neighbors, right, and she points to

588
00:28:32,840 --> 00:28:35,200
Speaker 2: all the houses around. Well, he's a realtor, he's a

589
00:28:35,440 --> 00:28:38,920
Speaker 2: police officer, whatever. She finally comes to this guy's house.

590
00:28:39,000 --> 00:28:41,280
Speaker 2: She points to this house and says, well, that guy,

591
00:28:41,480 --> 00:28:43,000
Speaker 2: he loves birds, he wouldn't do it.

592
00:28:43,160 --> 00:28:45,480
Speaker 3: I said, what do you mean? He loves birds. Oh,

593
00:28:45,520 --> 00:28:50,520
Speaker 3: he's got lots of pigeons. Okay, I had my suspects

594
00:28:50,560 --> 00:28:51,440
Speaker 3: house now, right.

595
00:28:52,640 --> 00:28:55,160
Speaker 2: So it turns out I go interview that guy and

596
00:28:56,440 --> 00:28:58,640
Speaker 2: his name was Marty, and he was a He was

597
00:28:58,720 --> 00:29:02,200
Speaker 2: a racing pigeon. So this guy actually made big money,

598
00:29:02,440 --> 00:29:05,440
Speaker 2: like ten plus thousand dollars a time on a race

599
00:29:05,720 --> 00:29:08,480
Speaker 2: if he won. Sometimes those races can be like fifty

600
00:29:08,520 --> 00:29:10,080
Speaker 2: grand if you win a Is that like.

601
00:29:10,240 --> 00:29:12,640
Speaker 4: Illegal gambling kind of money or where is it?

602
00:29:12,880 --> 00:29:12,920
Speaker 6: No?

603
00:29:13,160 --> 00:29:16,080
Speaker 3: Not necessarily. Yeah, it's like a plot sort of a thing. Yeah,

604
00:29:16,120 --> 00:29:18,400
Speaker 3: there's a pot. So uh.

605
00:29:19,280 --> 00:29:22,760
Speaker 2: He vibed real real bad and asked me if I

606
00:29:22,880 --> 00:29:25,040
Speaker 2: was armed, gave me all the you know, red flag

607
00:29:25,120 --> 00:29:27,560
Speaker 2: creepy things. But in the end I actually got him

608
00:29:27,600 --> 00:29:31,320
Speaker 2: to confess that he did kill hawks, so easy conviction

609
00:29:31,480 --> 00:29:33,920
Speaker 2: on that he confessed, he pled guilty. But the more

610
00:29:33,960 --> 00:29:36,680
Speaker 2: I thought about it, the more it nagged at me that, Okay,

611
00:29:36,880 --> 00:29:39,080
Speaker 2: there's a lot of there's a lot of pigeon fanciers

612
00:29:39,120 --> 00:29:42,000
Speaker 2: around the country, and if this guy is motivated to

613
00:29:42,080 --> 00:29:43,200
Speaker 2: kill hawks, probably.

614
00:29:42,960 --> 00:29:43,640
Speaker 3: Some other ones are.

615
00:29:44,160 --> 00:29:47,280
Speaker 2: So I just started digging and I realized it'd be

616
00:29:47,360 --> 00:29:50,000
Speaker 2: really difficult to infiltrate the best way to get these

617
00:29:50,040 --> 00:29:52,240
Speaker 2: guys is to do some type of undercover work. And

618
00:29:52,480 --> 00:29:54,880
Speaker 2: you you characterized me as an undercover agent when you

619
00:29:55,000 --> 00:29:58,960
Speaker 2: never introduced me. We don't talk like that really, But

620
00:29:59,640 --> 00:30:03,040
Speaker 2: I did a lot undercover work during my career, middle

621
00:30:03,080 --> 00:30:06,400
Speaker 2: part of my career in particular a lot, and this

622
00:30:06,600 --> 00:30:08,240
Speaker 2: was one of the big cases I ended up doing.

623
00:30:08,920 --> 00:30:11,760
Speaker 2: And I found that there was these group of roller

624
00:30:11,800 --> 00:30:15,240
Speaker 2: pigeon guys operating in la Is, a fairly large group

625
00:30:15,320 --> 00:30:18,960
Speaker 2: associated with the National Birmingham Roller Club the nbr C,

626
00:30:20,000 --> 00:30:22,760
Speaker 2: and then fact the president of the nbr C lived

627
00:30:22,800 --> 00:30:26,560
Speaker 2: in la So I really just started to ingratiate myself

628
00:30:26,600 --> 00:30:29,760
Speaker 2: with these guys online and ask a lot of questions

629
00:30:29,840 --> 00:30:33,760
Speaker 2: that I wanted to get into it. I got invited, Yeah,

630
00:30:34,360 --> 00:30:38,760
Speaker 2: got invited in to learn about the hobby and get involved.

631
00:30:39,040 --> 00:30:41,640
Speaker 1: How long did it take for you were How long

632
00:30:41,640 --> 00:30:44,320
Speaker 1: did it take for you were introduced to the rafter control?

633
00:30:45,760 --> 00:30:48,640
Speaker 2: Shockingly, it is very quick.

634
00:30:48,880 --> 00:30:49,080
Speaker 1: Yeah.

635
00:30:49,160 --> 00:30:52,719
Speaker 2: I mean I got invited to go to some pigeon

636
00:30:52,800 --> 00:30:55,600
Speaker 2: shows that they have where they show off their birds,

637
00:30:55,640 --> 00:30:58,520
Speaker 2: they buy and sell the good breeders, they show equipment,

638
00:30:59,200 --> 00:31:03,400
Speaker 2: and you know, funny enough, I had an undercover persona

639
00:31:03,480 --> 00:31:05,760
Speaker 2: all set up. I'd already been doing undercover work by

640
00:31:05,800 --> 00:31:09,240
Speaker 2: that time, but obviously did not use the name ed Newcomer.

641
00:31:09,320 --> 00:31:11,360
Speaker 2: But I ended up on one of their web pages

642
00:31:11,760 --> 00:31:13,640
Speaker 2: with a photo with me with a bunch of these

643
00:31:13,760 --> 00:31:16,200
Speaker 2: guys who ended up I ended up arresting a year

644
00:31:16,240 --> 00:31:19,320
Speaker 2: and a half later, And on the little caption down below,

645
00:31:19,360 --> 00:31:22,040
Speaker 2: it says, you know, the Inner City Roller Club welcomes

646
00:31:22,080 --> 00:31:23,360
Speaker 2: a newcomer to the group, and.

647
00:31:25,560 --> 00:31:27,200
Speaker 3: We put that up on the bulletin board in the

648
00:31:27,280 --> 00:31:30,120
Speaker 3: office there. It's kind of.

649
00:31:30,160 --> 00:31:32,400
Speaker 1: Nice, but at first you're like, shit, they found out

650
00:31:32,520 --> 00:31:35,840
Speaker 1: exactly yeah, yeah, whenever you see yeah, you see your name,

651
00:31:35,920 --> 00:31:38,840
Speaker 1: and parents like, wait, oh, the context is correct, it's

652
00:31:38,920 --> 00:31:40,920
Speaker 1: not capitalized exactly.

653
00:31:41,640 --> 00:31:45,440
Speaker 2: So but at that very first, you know, Meaty that

654
00:31:45,560 --> 00:31:48,800
Speaker 2: I went to I saw this funny looking cage sitting there,

655
00:31:49,040 --> 00:31:51,520
Speaker 2: and I knew immediately it was a Gosshawk trap because

656
00:31:51,560 --> 00:31:54,200
Speaker 2: I'd already I knew what these things looked like. And

657
00:31:54,320 --> 00:31:56,760
Speaker 2: there's this guy selling a gosshawk trap for one hundred bucks.

658
00:31:57,280 --> 00:31:58,920
Speaker 2: So of course I go up and I'm like, what's

659
00:31:58,960 --> 00:32:01,040
Speaker 2: this cage for? You know, to get into this hobby?

660
00:32:01,080 --> 00:32:04,480
Speaker 2: I don't know, what do you use this for, and yeah,

661
00:32:04,480 --> 00:32:05,960
Speaker 2: he didn't miss a beat. He says, Oh, that's for

662
00:32:06,080 --> 00:32:08,320
Speaker 2: catching hawks, but don't tell anybody because it's illegal.

663
00:32:08,560 --> 00:32:08,880
Speaker 1: M hm.

664
00:32:09,000 --> 00:32:10,760
Speaker 2: And I'm like, you know, could you say that into

665
00:32:10,800 --> 00:32:13,120
Speaker 2: my lapel mic, you know, it would be nice.

666
00:32:15,040 --> 00:32:18,360
Speaker 3: So and that went on. Once that kind of opened

667
00:32:18,440 --> 00:32:18,880
Speaker 3: up it.

668
00:32:19,240 --> 00:32:21,600
Speaker 2: Then once one of the guys on the inside has

669
00:32:21,640 --> 00:32:24,000
Speaker 2: made a statement to me about a hawk trap being

670
00:32:24,080 --> 00:32:28,320
Speaker 2: present on the property and what it's for, it gave

671
00:32:28,360 --> 00:32:30,280
Speaker 2: me an excuse to talk to everybody about, Hey, I

672
00:32:30,360 --> 00:32:31,400
Speaker 2: saw that weird cage.

673
00:32:31,920 --> 00:32:33,120
Speaker 3: What's this deal with hawks?

674
00:32:33,160 --> 00:32:33,200
Speaker 6: Do?

675
00:32:33,360 --> 00:32:34,800
Speaker 3: Is this something I need to be worried about? Where

676
00:32:34,840 --> 00:32:35,160
Speaker 3: I live?

677
00:32:36,120 --> 00:32:39,920
Speaker 2: Floodgates just opened immediately, and yeah, everybody was talking about it.

678
00:32:40,520 --> 00:32:41,120
Speaker 1: I went back.

679
00:32:41,840 --> 00:32:44,600
Speaker 2: My boss actually wasn't too excited about me. That that

680
00:32:44,720 --> 00:32:47,080
Speaker 2: little firecracker of a lawyer that I ended up working

681
00:32:47,120 --> 00:32:49,440
Speaker 2: for down in LA that Dave McMullen told me I

682
00:32:49,520 --> 00:32:52,640
Speaker 2: needed to work with. She wasn't excited about this case.

683
00:32:52,680 --> 00:32:55,320
Speaker 2: She's like, these migratory birds, it's a low priority. We

684
00:32:55,400 --> 00:32:57,400
Speaker 2: need to work on trafficking cases. And I said, no,

685
00:32:57,600 --> 00:33:00,240
Speaker 2: just let me go do one of these meat on

686
00:33:00,320 --> 00:33:03,520
Speaker 2: the weekend. Let's see what happens. I came back and

687
00:33:03,600 --> 00:33:06,800
Speaker 2: showed her that undercover video where everybody was talking about

688
00:33:06,880 --> 00:33:09,160
Speaker 2: killing hawks, and I pointed out to her that, look,

689
00:33:09,200 --> 00:33:11,800
Speaker 2: there's two hundred and fifty people in LA who are

690
00:33:11,840 --> 00:33:15,040
Speaker 2: members of the nbr C, the president's here, there are

691
00:33:15,080 --> 00:33:17,880
Speaker 2: people all over the country that are members of the NBRC.

692
00:33:18,880 --> 00:33:21,920
Speaker 2: And I didn't meet a single person at this meet

693
00:33:21,960 --> 00:33:25,480
Speaker 2: who didn't admit they were killing hawks. And she's like, well, shit,

694
00:33:25,520 --> 00:33:27,320
Speaker 2: we got to work this case then, you know, and

695
00:33:27,400 --> 00:33:30,080
Speaker 2: then we were off and running. It was a year

696
00:33:30,120 --> 00:33:33,640
Speaker 2: and a half. I spent every weekend at a pigeon.

697
00:33:33,400 --> 00:33:37,440
Speaker 5: At that point, like, what's the goala like for me?

698
00:33:37,600 --> 00:33:38,720
Speaker 3: Of them for you?

699
00:33:39,000 --> 00:33:41,360
Speaker 5: Because it seems to me like it'd be eas like

700
00:33:41,400 --> 00:33:43,240
Speaker 5: you got the one guy that confess, but that's not

701
00:33:43,360 --> 00:33:47,200
Speaker 5: really helping the bigger picture exactly, And so how do

702
00:33:47,240 --> 00:33:49,080
Speaker 5: you work that into being like, if we do this,

703
00:33:49,280 --> 00:33:50,320
Speaker 5: it's going to make a difference.

704
00:33:50,400 --> 00:33:53,280
Speaker 4: Yeah, Like, did you need a dead raptor to tie

705
00:33:53,400 --> 00:33:56,520
Speaker 4: to an individual like over and over and over again.

706
00:33:56,400 --> 00:34:02,000
Speaker 2: Or yes, yes, that's ideal. You know, the quintessential body.

707
00:34:02,360 --> 00:34:04,640
Speaker 2: It's a murder case, right, it's a hawk murder case.

708
00:34:04,920 --> 00:34:08,040
Speaker 2: So you want that body. But you don't necessarily need it,

709
00:34:08,040 --> 00:34:11,280
Speaker 2: because attempt to do these things is also a violation.

710
00:34:12,200 --> 00:34:15,360
Speaker 2: But what you got to get past is their ability

711
00:34:15,520 --> 00:34:19,160
Speaker 2: to create reasonable doubt by saying that that trap is

712
00:34:19,280 --> 00:34:22,719
Speaker 2: used for something else, right, it's used to trap raccoons

713
00:34:23,160 --> 00:34:26,719
Speaker 2: or whatever. So you got if you're going to go

714
00:34:26,840 --> 00:34:28,640
Speaker 2: for the attempt, you got to prove that they know

715
00:34:29,000 --> 00:34:30,680
Speaker 2: that they're trying to catch a hawk. And so you

716
00:34:30,800 --> 00:34:34,040
Speaker 2: got to do that undercover work, get those admissions on tape.

717
00:34:34,600 --> 00:34:37,279
Speaker 2: And so the goal here is with that first case

718
00:34:37,320 --> 00:34:42,040
Speaker 2: I did with the guy, the racer, Marty, you know,

719
00:34:42,120 --> 00:34:44,800
Speaker 2: it's a misdemeanor violation. He didn't get arrested. He basically

720
00:34:44,880 --> 00:34:46,839
Speaker 2: paid a ticket, right, and it was a big fine,

721
00:34:47,200 --> 00:34:50,120
Speaker 2: but it didn't get in the paper. I think he

722
00:34:50,239 --> 00:34:52,840
Speaker 2: paid it's about five grand. I think it was pretty

723
00:34:52,880 --> 00:34:53,360
Speaker 2: good fine.

724
00:34:54,040 --> 00:34:55,160
Speaker 4: And the word never spread.

725
00:34:55,200 --> 00:34:59,560
Speaker 2: The word to his friends maybe, but it doesn't get

726
00:34:59,600 --> 00:35:03,319
Speaker 2: out in bigger community that you know. What happens then,

727
00:35:03,480 --> 00:35:06,279
Speaker 2: is every all his buddies say, well, you idiot, you

728
00:35:06,320 --> 00:35:09,440
Speaker 2: shouldn't have admitted you did it. And too bad Marty

729
00:35:09,480 --> 00:35:11,600
Speaker 2: got caught. I'm not going to get caught, right, So

730
00:35:11,760 --> 00:35:14,640
Speaker 2: what you want is deterrence and you got to deter people,

731
00:35:14,800 --> 00:35:16,560
Speaker 2: and the best way to do that is to catch

732
00:35:16,640 --> 00:35:21,759
Speaker 2: a lot of people. And then catching a lot of

733
00:35:21,800 --> 00:35:26,120
Speaker 2: people catches the attention of the media, and that tends to.

734
00:35:26,120 --> 00:35:28,680
Speaker 3: Get the word out. Public shaming, public shaming.

735
00:35:29,480 --> 00:35:32,239
Speaker 2: Yeah, we didn't use those terms, but yeah, that's what

736
00:35:32,400 --> 00:35:34,840
Speaker 2: it is, really and that's effective.

737
00:35:35,040 --> 00:35:36,000
Speaker 3: It's really effective.

738
00:35:36,480 --> 00:35:40,960
Speaker 2: So you know, you know, Abraham Lincoln said something that

739
00:35:41,239 --> 00:35:45,120
Speaker 2: I love, and that is that the law without enforcement

740
00:35:45,400 --> 00:35:49,200
Speaker 2: is simply good advice. And if people don't know you're

741
00:35:49,239 --> 00:35:51,480
Speaker 2: out there enforcing the law and you're catching people, they

742
00:35:51,600 --> 00:35:52,760
Speaker 2: just advice.

743
00:35:52,840 --> 00:35:57,879
Speaker 1: Then what prevents the what prevents the cage guy from

744
00:35:58,000 --> 00:36:01,799
Speaker 1: saying in the end, he said, well, what I didn't

745
00:36:01,840 --> 00:36:04,960
Speaker 1: tell you is I just relocate them, so maybe you

746
00:36:05,040 --> 00:36:07,680
Speaker 1: can get me. Maybe it's like a legal possession. But

747
00:36:07,760 --> 00:36:09,680
Speaker 1: I didn't kill it, right, You don't know that I

748
00:36:09,800 --> 00:36:11,719
Speaker 1: killed it, right. I forgot to say, I'll just move

749
00:36:11,800 --> 00:36:13,800
Speaker 1: them away and let them go. So, yeah, I possessed

750
00:36:13,840 --> 00:36:14,840
Speaker 1: it for a minute, but that was it.

751
00:36:15,239 --> 00:36:17,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, and some of them did try that. But the

752
00:36:17,600 --> 00:36:20,520
Speaker 2: way the MBTA, the Migratory Bird Charity Act is written,

753
00:36:20,880 --> 00:36:22,440
Speaker 2: is it's illegal to catch them.

754
00:36:23,280 --> 00:36:24,480
Speaker 3: It's not. It doesn't matter.

755
00:36:24,800 --> 00:36:26,440
Speaker 2: If you want to catch one and relocate it, you

756
00:36:26,480 --> 00:36:27,920
Speaker 2: have to have a permit from the US Fish and

757
00:36:27,960 --> 00:36:30,880
Speaker 2: Wildlife Service. So that didn't necessarily get them out of it,

758
00:36:31,400 --> 00:36:34,440
Speaker 2: but it would have been good jury sympathy, right, But

759
00:36:34,800 --> 00:36:37,320
Speaker 2: there were some some of these guys actually told me.

760
00:36:37,480 --> 00:36:38,880
Speaker 2: I'd ask them, I'd say, well, what do you do

761
00:36:38,960 --> 00:36:40,479
Speaker 2: with it after you catch it in this trap?

762
00:36:40,560 --> 00:36:40,680
Speaker 3: Oh?

763
00:36:41,160 --> 00:36:43,160
Speaker 2: And a lot of them told me don't release them

764
00:36:43,480 --> 00:36:46,560
Speaker 2: because hawks will learn to not go in a gosshawk trap.

765
00:36:46,960 --> 00:36:48,920
Speaker 2: And so if you release a hawk, it's just going

766
00:36:49,000 --> 00:36:52,200
Speaker 2: to set your fellow roller pigeon guys up to have

767
00:36:52,480 --> 00:36:55,040
Speaker 2: a nightmare because they're going to have a hawk preying

768
00:36:55,120 --> 00:36:56,960
Speaker 2: on their pigeons that you can't catch. In the business,

769
00:36:56,960 --> 00:37:00,480
Speaker 2: you know what we call that trap shot? Yeah, yeah,

770
00:37:00,840 --> 00:37:03,080
Speaker 2: well that's true, all right. Animals aren't dumb.

771
00:37:03,560 --> 00:37:07,320
Speaker 3: Yeah. So let's see where were we on this?

772
00:37:07,480 --> 00:37:12,320
Speaker 2: So I get into these clubs and basically presented myself

773
00:37:12,360 --> 00:37:15,520
Speaker 2: as somebody who was interested in getting involved. They did,

774
00:37:16,719 --> 00:37:18,520
Speaker 2: They did kind of check me out a little bit.

775
00:37:18,560 --> 00:37:20,200
Speaker 2: They wanted to know where I lived, and we had

776
00:37:20,239 --> 00:37:22,520
Speaker 2: to have the cover was pretty good on that case

777
00:37:22,640 --> 00:37:24,839
Speaker 2: because these guys were dangerous. Some of these guys lived

778
00:37:24,880 --> 00:37:28,000
Speaker 2: in south central LA, you know right there. I mean

779
00:37:28,160 --> 00:37:30,120
Speaker 2: I was the only white guy at some of these meetings,

780
00:37:30,800 --> 00:37:33,279
Speaker 2: and a lot of them we'd run there anytime I could,

781
00:37:33,640 --> 00:37:35,520
Speaker 2: you know, figure out who they were, we'd run them.

782
00:37:36,000 --> 00:37:40,440
Speaker 2: A lot of them had felony convictions for assaults, gun crimes,

783
00:37:40,560 --> 00:37:43,279
Speaker 2: drug crimes. One guy in the middle of the investigation

784
00:37:43,920 --> 00:37:45,960
Speaker 2: comes up with a warrant for gang rape out of

785
00:37:46,080 --> 00:37:46,640
Speaker 2: LA County.

786
00:37:47,360 --> 00:37:49,040
Speaker 4: And that's what I was going to ask you earlier.

787
00:37:49,120 --> 00:37:51,680
Speaker 4: Like we've had game wardens on that have told us,

788
00:37:51,760 --> 00:37:56,799
Speaker 4: like poaching cases will often lead to like larger other

789
00:37:57,280 --> 00:37:58,680
Speaker 4: you know, criminal activity.

790
00:37:58,880 --> 00:38:00,839
Speaker 3: Did you absolutely into that a lot?

791
00:38:01,120 --> 00:38:04,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely, especially when you've got more organized, you know,

792
00:38:04,760 --> 00:38:07,359
Speaker 2: criminal activity going on. If you're talking about somebody who

793
00:38:08,360 --> 00:38:11,360
Speaker 2: has two or three extra trout or you know whatever,

794
00:38:11,880 --> 00:38:16,359
Speaker 2: kills a buck when they shouldn't have whatever, that's that's

795
00:38:16,400 --> 00:38:18,120
Speaker 2: kind of a one off. But if you've got somebody

796
00:38:18,239 --> 00:38:22,719
Speaker 2: in systemically and systematically involved in committing crimes, you know,

797
00:38:22,760 --> 00:38:25,080
Speaker 2: there's there's a couple of things that people will kill

798
00:38:25,160 --> 00:38:26,080
Speaker 2: you for or hurt you for.

799
00:38:26,680 --> 00:38:27,160
Speaker 3: Three things.

800
00:38:27,200 --> 00:38:30,880
Speaker 2: I always say, one is to protect their liberty and

801
00:38:30,960 --> 00:38:33,520
Speaker 2: the other is to protect their money right, and to

802
00:38:33,560 --> 00:38:37,480
Speaker 2: prepare their house. And when you are when they are

803
00:38:37,560 --> 00:38:42,400
Speaker 2: involved in an ongoing criminal activity, you're gonna as a

804
00:38:42,480 --> 00:38:44,960
Speaker 2: law enforcement officer, you're endangering all three of those things

805
00:38:45,040 --> 00:38:47,239
Speaker 2: for them. You're going to take their money, potentially their

806
00:38:47,280 --> 00:38:49,919
Speaker 2: revenue source. You're probably going to do a search warrant

807
00:38:49,960 --> 00:38:52,400
Speaker 2: on their house, and they definitely think they're liberty is

808
00:38:52,400 --> 00:38:54,759
Speaker 2: at stake, and those are the things that make people

809
00:38:54,880 --> 00:38:59,719
Speaker 2: really dangerous. Yeah, so yeah, so we didn't take any

810
00:38:59,760 --> 00:39:02,759
Speaker 2: chance is with these guys. In fact, every time, every

811
00:39:02,800 --> 00:39:04,879
Speaker 2: time I'd come in on a Monday morning after meeting

812
00:39:04,960 --> 00:39:07,040
Speaker 2: with them, my boss would kind of shake her head

813
00:39:07,080 --> 00:39:10,440
Speaker 2: and say, this is too dangerous. We need we need

814
00:39:10,520 --> 00:39:11,920
Speaker 2: to take this down. I'm like, no, no, we got

815
00:39:12,000 --> 00:39:13,759
Speaker 2: to go farther. We got to catch more of these guys.

816
00:39:13,880 --> 00:39:14,480
Speaker 3: We need more.

817
00:39:15,280 --> 00:39:18,000
Speaker 2: And then a really crazy thing happened. I happened to

818
00:39:18,239 --> 00:39:22,360
Speaker 2: be up in Oregon for a firearms qualification and defensive

819
00:39:22,440 --> 00:39:27,840
Speaker 2: tactics training because at the time, Oregon, Washington, California, Idaho

820
00:39:28,280 --> 00:39:30,759
Speaker 2: were all part of the same region. So we'd get

821
00:39:30,760 --> 00:39:33,080
Speaker 2: together as agents for training and stuff. And I'm up

822
00:39:33,080 --> 00:39:36,120
Speaker 2: there and I'm literally wrestling around on the ground with

823
00:39:36,239 --> 00:39:38,840
Speaker 2: an agent named Dirk Hoy who was based up in Portland,

824
00:39:39,560 --> 00:39:41,640
Speaker 2: and we're, you know, we're resting in between doing some

825
00:39:41,719 --> 00:39:44,279
Speaker 2: ground fighting and I'm like, what are you working on, Dirk?

826
00:39:44,520 --> 00:39:45,879
Speaker 2: And he goes, oh, I got the weirdest case.

827
00:39:45,880 --> 00:39:46,320
Speaker 3: I'm working on.

828
00:39:46,400 --> 00:39:48,680
Speaker 2: This case involving these pigeons that flip backwards.

829
00:39:49,640 --> 00:39:50,600
Speaker 3: I couldn't believe it.

830
00:39:50,680 --> 00:39:53,480
Speaker 2: I mean literally, here I am in the prone position

831
00:39:53,600 --> 00:39:55,600
Speaker 2: with Dirk between my legs and he's telling me this,

832
00:39:55,719 --> 00:39:58,879
Speaker 2: and I'm like, I'm doing the same thing. And from

833
00:39:58,960 --> 00:40:01,880
Speaker 2: that moment forward and I started to collaborate, and we

834
00:40:02,000 --> 00:40:05,959
Speaker 2: realized he was investigating members of the National Birmingham Roller

835
00:40:06,000 --> 00:40:09,800
Speaker 2: Club up in Oregon and Washington and Idaho and Montana.

836
00:40:10,480 --> 00:40:12,719
Speaker 2: And here I was with the investigating the guys in

837
00:40:12,760 --> 00:40:16,080
Speaker 2: southern California, the same thing, same exact thing. They were doing,

838
00:40:16,239 --> 00:40:19,760
Speaker 2: exactly the same network. And because it was getting around

839
00:40:19,800 --> 00:40:21,920
Speaker 2: among the club, here's the best way to kill hawks,

840
00:40:22,400 --> 00:40:25,360
Speaker 2: these guys were sending each other schematics on how to

841
00:40:25,440 --> 00:40:27,920
Speaker 2: build traps. They were talking about the best way to shoot,

842
00:40:28,560 --> 00:40:32,160
Speaker 2: how to poison, how to drown. I mean, oh yeah,

843
00:40:32,320 --> 00:40:34,600
Speaker 2: they were given each other. Once we really got into it,

844
00:40:34,840 --> 00:40:36,200
Speaker 2: the culpability here was just.

845
00:40:36,400 --> 00:40:38,520
Speaker 1: Through the roof. You know, if you would have embedded

846
00:40:38,600 --> 00:40:40,680
Speaker 1: yourself with cottontail rabbit hunters in the.

847
00:40:40,719 --> 00:40:43,240
Speaker 3: Sixties would have made some good cases.

848
00:40:44,160 --> 00:40:45,040
Speaker 1: No, sixties would have.

849
00:40:45,040 --> 00:40:47,640
Speaker 3: Been too early, right, Well MBTA was around then.

850
00:40:48,160 --> 00:40:51,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, you'd had a very similar experience, I think.

851
00:40:51,200 --> 00:40:54,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, it's it's true with uh so people who

852
00:40:55,239 --> 00:40:58,160
Speaker 2: who raise pheasants, you know for hunting clubs, they'll do

853
00:40:58,280 --> 00:41:00,640
Speaker 2: it too because hawkshall, hawxhall hit the pheasants.

854
00:41:01,320 --> 00:41:02,880
Speaker 3: So yeah, it's a temptation.

855
00:41:03,120 --> 00:41:06,720
Speaker 5: Sure, there's some chicken chicken people to have hobby farms

856
00:41:06,719 --> 00:41:10,000
Speaker 5: with chickens totally. I mean they're a threat to our chickens, totally.

857
00:41:10,520 --> 00:41:12,680
Speaker 5: My wife's not into that, but she's you know, she

858
00:41:12,760 --> 00:41:14,720
Speaker 5: doesn't like when a hawks flying above.

859
00:41:14,880 --> 00:41:16,839
Speaker 2: Of course, you know who are some of the worst

860
00:41:16,840 --> 00:41:20,720
Speaker 2: offenders are guys who are involved in cock fighting because

861
00:41:21,080 --> 00:41:22,080
Speaker 2: they're killing predators.

862
00:41:22,200 --> 00:41:23,840
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, can't hold his own.

863
00:41:23,719 --> 00:41:26,440
Speaker 2: Again, Nope, because they don't have their little you know

864
00:41:26,520 --> 00:41:27,040
Speaker 2: that little.

865
00:41:29,719 --> 00:41:29,919
Speaker 3: Lad.

866
00:41:30,680 --> 00:41:32,959
Speaker 2: So you know, then you got a double whammy because

867
00:41:32,960 --> 00:41:35,440
Speaker 2: that's a state violation to be involved in cockfighting, and

868
00:41:35,520 --> 00:41:36,840
Speaker 2: then you've got them killing hawks.

869
00:41:37,000 --> 00:41:38,239
Speaker 3: But that's a hard case to make.

870
00:41:38,640 --> 00:41:41,640
Speaker 1: So when you tell me how this like like how

871
00:41:41,640 --> 00:41:44,279
Speaker 1: does this wrap up? Like how do you how do

872
00:41:44,320 --> 00:41:45,640
Speaker 1: you bring it to a clothes.

873
00:41:45,520 --> 00:41:48,800
Speaker 2: Well, the cool thing was Dirk and I agreed immediately

874
00:41:48,880 --> 00:41:50,560
Speaker 2: what the strategy was. You know, we got to get

875
00:41:50,560 --> 00:41:53,440
Speaker 2: as many people as possible. He was having peregrines get

876
00:41:53,560 --> 00:41:57,239
Speaker 2: killed up in Portland, so it's a little little higher priority.

877
00:41:58,000 --> 00:42:00,719
Speaker 2: So what we decided was, yeah, there's too many people

878
00:42:00,800 --> 00:42:02,320
Speaker 2: to get all of them. So what we did is

879
00:42:02,360 --> 00:42:05,600
Speaker 2: we focused on club leaders, people who were who were

880
00:42:06,560 --> 00:42:10,440
Speaker 2: you know, setting the example, anybody who was a president

881
00:42:10,520 --> 00:42:13,320
Speaker 2: of a local club. We targeted the president of the

882
00:42:13,400 --> 00:42:15,520
Speaker 2: National Birmingham Roller Club, who is one of the worst

883
00:42:15,560 --> 00:42:20,439
Speaker 2: killers of them all. And we decided, all right, once

884
00:42:20,520 --> 00:42:23,080
Speaker 2: we have good evidence on all this, this t our

885
00:42:23,160 --> 00:42:23,799
Speaker 2: target group.

886
00:42:24,000 --> 00:42:25,319
Speaker 3: Each of us have a target group.

887
00:42:25,880 --> 00:42:28,480
Speaker 2: We'll do our takedowns at exactly the same time, will

888
00:42:28,520 --> 00:42:31,440
Speaker 2: coordinate everything, we'll do our search warrants, we're going to

889
00:42:31,560 --> 00:42:34,640
Speaker 2: arrest everybody, and we'll do it all on the same day,

890
00:42:35,120 --> 00:42:38,200
Speaker 2: and then the word doesn't get out, evidence doesn't disappear,

891
00:42:38,680 --> 00:42:41,240
Speaker 2: and then we can try to get the media's attention

892
00:42:41,360 --> 00:42:43,719
Speaker 2: to in order to deter people. Neither Dirk or I

893
00:42:43,880 --> 00:42:45,680
Speaker 2: were interested in having our names in the paper. We

894
00:42:45,760 --> 00:42:49,560
Speaker 2: wanted we wanted the roller pigeon community to know that

895
00:42:49,680 --> 00:42:53,239
Speaker 2: they had been infiltrated and that everything they had said

896
00:42:53,360 --> 00:42:56,480
Speaker 2: and done had been recorded, and that they were going

897
00:42:56,520 --> 00:42:58,400
Speaker 2: to look real bad, so they needed to clean up

898
00:42:58,440 --> 00:42:58,839
Speaker 2: their act.

899
00:42:59,320 --> 00:43:00,480
Speaker 3: So that's how I played out.

900
00:43:00,520 --> 00:43:03,760
Speaker 2: About fourteen months after I started, we did our takedown.

901
00:43:04,360 --> 00:43:08,280
Speaker 2: We even Dirk even there was a Montana game Morden

902
00:43:08,400 --> 00:43:10,840
Speaker 2: that got implicated in the whole damn thing, which was

903
00:43:11,200 --> 00:43:15,160
Speaker 2: very depressing for both Dirk and I. But also we

904
00:43:15,320 --> 00:43:18,160
Speaker 2: really wanted to get that person because you know, that's

905
00:43:18,200 --> 00:43:21,720
Speaker 2: a bad image to have sure wildlife law enforcement officer involved.

906
00:43:22,200 --> 00:43:24,480
Speaker 2: He didn't end up getting charged because Dirk couldn't prove

907
00:43:24,560 --> 00:43:27,960
Speaker 2: that he actually killed a hawk, but we had an

908
00:43:28,000 --> 00:43:30,600
Speaker 2: agent here. I think it was Bozeman, might have been Missouli,

909
00:43:30,600 --> 00:43:32,640
Speaker 2: I can't remember, but we had one of our agents

910
00:43:32,719 --> 00:43:36,320
Speaker 2: here go interview him. The minute the agent came in

911
00:43:36,440 --> 00:43:38,080
Speaker 2: and rolled the gold and said, Hey, I'm here to

912
00:43:38,160 --> 00:43:41,720
Speaker 2: talk to you about hawks, the guy said, he literally

913
00:43:41,800 --> 00:43:43,920
Speaker 2: said I want my union rep. And the very next

914
00:43:44,000 --> 00:43:48,160
Speaker 2: day he retired. Oh yeah, so that's pretty damning right there,

915
00:43:48,239 --> 00:43:51,040
Speaker 2: right But He didn't end up getting charged because Dirk

916
00:43:51,120 --> 00:43:53,600
Speaker 2: just couldn't couldn't prove that he'd actually killed a hawk,

917
00:43:53,680 --> 00:43:56,399
Speaker 2: but it was just obvious he was involved. In fact,

918
00:43:56,480 --> 00:43:58,920
Speaker 2: one of the guys I arrested in LA we had

919
00:43:59,000 --> 00:44:00,600
Speaker 2: him in handcuffs in the back the car and the

920
00:44:00,640 --> 00:44:03,239
Speaker 2: first thing he said was do you know? And he

921
00:44:03,360 --> 00:44:09,040
Speaker 2: named the Montana State game Morton, Yeah, hoping that, hoping

922
00:44:09,120 --> 00:44:11,400
Speaker 2: that would get him out of it. And let me

923
00:44:11,520 --> 00:44:14,880
Speaker 2: just say the Montana It's Montana game and fish right,

924
00:44:15,080 --> 00:44:15,320
Speaker 2: isn't it?

925
00:44:16,760 --> 00:44:17,000
Speaker 3: Okay?

926
00:44:17,080 --> 00:44:20,200
Speaker 2: They've changed their name since I okay, it's like I

927
00:44:20,239 --> 00:44:20,880
Speaker 2: can never remember.

928
00:44:20,960 --> 00:44:22,319
Speaker 1: It's been an f w P for long.

929
00:44:22,800 --> 00:44:27,440
Speaker 3: I can a few years. Colorado changes. It always confuses me.

930
00:44:27,520 --> 00:44:29,520
Speaker 2: So I can never remember. But to their credit, they

931
00:44:29,560 --> 00:44:32,480
Speaker 2: were awesome. They were not interested in having an officer

932
00:44:32,560 --> 00:44:34,719
Speaker 2: in their ranks who had, you know, violated the law.

933
00:44:35,239 --> 00:44:37,239
Speaker 2: So they were very cooperative and they were very.

934
00:44:37,120 --> 00:44:39,920
Speaker 3: Glad to see him go. So you know, that's that's

935
00:44:39,960 --> 00:44:40,399
Speaker 3: good news.

936
00:44:40,520 --> 00:44:41,719
Speaker 1: How many rest did you guys make?

937
00:44:42,440 --> 00:44:44,759
Speaker 2: I ended up arresting seven people in l A. I

938
00:44:44,880 --> 00:44:46,960
Speaker 2: can't remember how many dirt got up here in Oregon

939
00:44:47,040 --> 00:44:49,359
Speaker 2: in Washington, but it was a it was a good

940
00:44:49,440 --> 00:44:53,080
Speaker 2: case and made a lot of made a lot of attention.

941
00:44:53,800 --> 00:44:57,279
Speaker 2: And the the thing I really really was proud of

942
00:44:57,480 --> 00:45:00,680
Speaker 2: is that it empowered the people in the roller pigeon

943
00:45:00,719 --> 00:45:03,640
Speaker 2: community who were opposed to hawk killing, who often had

944
00:45:03,680 --> 00:45:05,880
Speaker 2: been kind of shouted down and bullied.

945
00:45:06,719 --> 00:45:08,960
Speaker 3: It gave them a voice to come out and say,

946
00:45:09,080 --> 00:45:11,080
Speaker 3: you know, we told you guys, you know we got

947
00:45:11,200 --> 00:45:13,239
Speaker 3: to stop this, and it was good.

948
00:45:13,360 --> 00:45:15,600
Speaker 2: And the best part is even today, if you go

949
00:45:15,719 --> 00:45:19,640
Speaker 2: on the roller pigeon chat rooms and email groups or whatever,

950
00:45:19,760 --> 00:45:22,320
Speaker 2: you'll see somebody's like, well, I'm pretty sure there was

951
00:45:22,360 --> 00:45:23,439
Speaker 2: an undercover agent at.

952
00:45:23,360 --> 00:45:27,600
Speaker 3: That last fly. Yeah, and there very well could have been.

953
00:45:27,840 --> 00:45:31,000
Speaker 2: But that's the ideal situation, right You always want them

954
00:45:31,040 --> 00:45:34,719
Speaker 2: looking over their shoulder, like, oh crap, those I used.

955
00:45:34,840 --> 00:45:37,160
Speaker 2: I arrested this guy early in my career who was

956
00:45:37,640 --> 00:45:40,239
Speaker 2: Japanese national, and he used to refer to us as

957
00:45:40,320 --> 00:45:43,200
Speaker 2: the fish and wild guys, and I always because he

958
00:45:43,239 --> 00:45:45,840
Speaker 2: couldn't for some reason, he couldn't pronounce fish and wildlife.

959
00:45:45,840 --> 00:45:47,919
Speaker 3: So they say, oh, those fish and wild guys, they're

960
00:45:47,960 --> 00:45:48,680
Speaker 3: always out there.

961
00:45:48,880 --> 00:45:51,560
Speaker 2: And I just want people to know that that, you know,

962
00:45:51,719 --> 00:45:54,560
Speaker 2: if you if you end up committing a federal wildlife

963
00:45:54,640 --> 00:45:56,680
Speaker 2: law and a fish and wildlife agent gets on you,

964
00:45:58,000 --> 00:46:00,840
Speaker 2: you're cooked. I mean, every agent I know is so

965
00:46:01,080 --> 00:46:03,160
Speaker 2: tenacious and so committed to their job.

966
00:46:04,120 --> 00:46:04,400
Speaker 6: It is.

967
00:46:04,719 --> 00:46:05,440
Speaker 3: It is true.

968
00:46:05,840 --> 00:46:08,560
Speaker 2: It's what they say about federal agents. Once they're on

969
00:46:08,760 --> 00:46:11,919
Speaker 2: you and they have evidence that you did something, they're

970
00:46:11,960 --> 00:46:12,520
Speaker 2: not giving up.

971
00:46:12,680 --> 00:46:14,719
Speaker 3: They'll get you. It's just a matter of time.

972
00:46:17,400 --> 00:46:23,120
Speaker 1: How do you create the distinction between when does someone

973
00:46:23,239 --> 00:46:25,560
Speaker 1: violating a state's law become federal.

974
00:46:26,080 --> 00:46:27,319
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's a great question.

975
00:46:27,520 --> 00:46:29,879
Speaker 1: If it because it does, if it becomes a lazy act,

976
00:46:30,320 --> 00:46:32,800
Speaker 1: does that involve you, then yes, a lazy act.

977
00:46:32,719 --> 00:46:33,920
Speaker 3: Violation, Yes it can.

978
00:46:34,400 --> 00:46:39,000
Speaker 2: So the best way to explain that is the if

979
00:46:39,040 --> 00:46:42,400
Speaker 2: you think about the FBI's relationship to say, to the

980
00:46:42,719 --> 00:46:48,920
Speaker 2: Montana Bozeman Police, Right, if a car gets stolen here

981
00:46:49,120 --> 00:46:53,440
Speaker 2: in town, that's a state issue, Right, local police are

982
00:46:53,480 --> 00:46:56,520
Speaker 2: going to handle that. If that car crosses the state

983
00:46:56,600 --> 00:47:00,400
Speaker 2: line into Wyoming, now that's a federal offense. The FBI

984
00:47:00,520 --> 00:47:02,640
Speaker 2: can get involved. And the reason for that is the

985
00:47:02,760 --> 00:47:05,680
Speaker 2: jurisdiction of the Montana law enforcement ends at the border,

986
00:47:06,160 --> 00:47:09,640
Speaker 2: so it becomes difficult for them to conduct investigations outside

987
00:47:09,680 --> 00:47:12,400
Speaker 2: the state. For the Feds that's not an issue. I

988
00:47:12,560 --> 00:47:15,400
Speaker 2: never cared about a state line. That never never crossed

989
00:47:15,480 --> 00:47:21,040
Speaker 2: my mind. Right, So if I you know, if something

990
00:47:21,120 --> 00:47:23,800
Speaker 2: crosses state lines, it often triggers a federal law that

991
00:47:23,920 --> 00:47:27,720
Speaker 2: makes that a federal offense, allowing the FBI, Orficial Wildlife

992
00:47:27,760 --> 00:47:30,880
Speaker 2: or Secret Service or whomever to get involved. And a

993
00:47:30,920 --> 00:47:32,839
Speaker 2: lot of times it's done at the request of the state.

994
00:47:33,520 --> 00:47:38,239
Speaker 2: So we in LA often got calls from Montana, Colorado,

995
00:47:38,440 --> 00:47:41,759
Speaker 2: Wyoming from game wardens that said, hey, you know this

996
00:47:42,120 --> 00:47:44,640
Speaker 2: LA guy came in and killed a big elk out

997
00:47:44,680 --> 00:47:47,000
Speaker 2: here illegally, and can you help.

998
00:47:47,640 --> 00:47:49,239
Speaker 3: Yeah, heck, yeah we can.

999
00:47:49,360 --> 00:47:52,160
Speaker 2: If he killed an elk illegally in Montana and he

1000
00:47:52,400 --> 00:47:56,320
Speaker 2: drove the meat, any part of it, antler meat, hide, whatever,

1001
00:47:57,080 --> 00:47:59,759
Speaker 2: back to LA, that's a Lacy Act violation, which makes

1002
00:47:59,760 --> 00:48:00,879
Speaker 2: it a federal effection.

1003
00:48:00,600 --> 00:48:02,000
Speaker 1: And you can assist in the investigations.

1004
00:48:02,080 --> 00:48:04,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, so we bring the resources of the federal government

1005
00:48:05,120 --> 00:48:07,720
Speaker 2: to help the state. That's really what the Laciac's all about,

1006
00:48:07,800 --> 00:48:10,560
Speaker 2: even though it you know, it's not like we're stealing

1007
00:48:10,640 --> 00:48:12,960
Speaker 2: the case from the state. A lot of times, what

1008
00:48:13,080 --> 00:48:15,840
Speaker 2: I would do as an age, that's how it happens.

1009
00:48:15,560 --> 00:48:16,080
Speaker 3: In the movies.

1010
00:48:16,120 --> 00:48:17,880
Speaker 1: And taking one over Perkins.

1011
00:48:18,160 --> 00:48:22,680
Speaker 2: And that makes my skin crawl. That makes my skin crawl,

1012
00:48:22,719 --> 00:48:24,920
Speaker 2: because it's really not the way it works out in

1013
00:48:24,960 --> 00:48:29,000
Speaker 2: the field. Honestly, what I would normally do if I

1014
00:48:29,080 --> 00:48:32,440
Speaker 2: had that situation is I would get with the Montana

1015
00:48:32,520 --> 00:48:35,239
Speaker 2: warden and I'd say, all right, we got him on

1016
00:48:35,320 --> 00:48:38,520
Speaker 2: the Lacey. What do you need, here's my report, here's

1017
00:48:38,560 --> 00:48:41,200
Speaker 2: all the evidence. What do you need to make your

1018
00:48:41,239 --> 00:48:44,560
Speaker 2: state case? And then we together we would say who's

1019
00:48:44,600 --> 00:48:46,239
Speaker 2: going to get the best punch out of this? Right,

1020
00:48:46,360 --> 00:48:49,239
Speaker 2: who's going to get the best penalty? And sometimes it's

1021
00:48:49,320 --> 00:48:52,280
Speaker 2: the state, sometimes the state. In many cases the states

1022
00:48:52,320 --> 00:48:55,239
Speaker 2: are have much harsher penalties for wildlife crimes than the

1023
00:48:55,280 --> 00:48:55,719
Speaker 2: Feds do.

1024
00:48:56,080 --> 00:48:57,840
Speaker 5: Well, it's interesting to hear you say that, because we

1025
00:48:58,000 --> 00:49:01,239
Speaker 5: often cover this sort of stuff and like it never

1026
00:49:01,360 --> 00:49:03,800
Speaker 5: fails nine out of ten times. At the end of

1027
00:49:03,880 --> 00:49:07,240
Speaker 5: the discussion, we go some beachulin got three hundred dollars

1028
00:49:07,320 --> 00:49:11,040
Speaker 5: and losses license for like a year. R Like that's

1029
00:49:11,200 --> 00:49:12,480
Speaker 5: barely a slap on the wrist.

1030
00:49:12,800 --> 00:49:16,400
Speaker 4: Yeah, are you guys automatically taking over if it's federally

1031
00:49:16,520 --> 00:49:19,120
Speaker 4: managed like waterfowl for instance.

1032
00:49:18,840 --> 00:49:22,360
Speaker 2: Or yeah, it we can, right if it's a federally

1033
00:49:22,440 --> 00:49:25,480
Speaker 2: managed animal, we can take take it over, as you say,

1034
00:49:25,600 --> 00:49:30,160
Speaker 2: but especially with waterfowl, we generally, even though we have

1035
00:49:30,280 --> 00:49:34,239
Speaker 2: primary jurisdiction over waterfowl, all migratory birds dove doves too,

1036
00:49:35,120 --> 00:49:38,800
Speaker 2: we don't, you know, bust in on that, because the

1037
00:49:38,920 --> 00:49:41,279
Speaker 2: US Fish and Wilife Service we're all special agents. We're

1038
00:49:41,320 --> 00:49:44,640
Speaker 2: playing clothes investigators. We don't have a patrol function, right,

1039
00:49:44,719 --> 00:49:46,800
Speaker 2: you know, I drive a unmarked car. I don't have

1040
00:49:46,880 --> 00:49:51,040
Speaker 2: a dispatcher telling me where to go. So uniformed game

1041
00:49:51,080 --> 00:49:54,680
Speaker 2: wardens are ideally suited to enforce waterfowl hunting, dove hunting.

1042
00:49:54,920 --> 00:49:57,839
Speaker 4: Yeah, I was you're talking about just like someone going

1043
00:49:57,920 --> 00:50:00,279
Speaker 4: over the limit or but if it's like a large.

1044
00:50:00,320 --> 00:50:03,279
Speaker 3: Scale thing, Yeah, again we would.

1045
00:50:03,360 --> 00:50:06,879
Speaker 2: If a state's got an investigation going, we would join

1046
00:50:07,000 --> 00:50:09,400
Speaker 2: them versus taking it over on them.

1047
00:50:09,480 --> 00:50:11,839
Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, we don't do that, did you not cool?

1048
00:50:12,040 --> 00:50:18,160
Speaker 1: Did you ever work any cases that involved people in

1049
00:50:18,280 --> 00:50:25,960
Speaker 1: the restaurant trade serving poached wildlife or serving illegally captured

1050
00:50:25,960 --> 00:50:28,279
Speaker 1: wildlife that was making its way into the restaurant trade.

1051
00:50:28,960 --> 00:50:32,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, I didn't in particular, but there are some cases

1052
00:50:34,239 --> 00:50:37,200
Speaker 2: that that that's come up, even in LA a lot

1053
00:50:37,239 --> 00:50:41,600
Speaker 2: of the Asian restaurants will serve wildlife that's taken turtles

1054
00:50:41,640 --> 00:50:45,680
Speaker 2: in particular, reptiles, sometimes fish. So we, yeah, we got

1055
00:50:45,719 --> 00:50:49,360
Speaker 2: involved in some of that. But you know that reminds

1056
00:50:49,440 --> 00:50:52,279
Speaker 2: me I told you earlier that you know, early in

1057
00:50:52,360 --> 00:50:54,600
Speaker 2: my career what we dealt with was a lot of

1058
00:50:54,640 --> 00:50:58,439
Speaker 2: wildlife coming into the United States right about halfway through,

1059
00:50:58,560 --> 00:51:01,920
Speaker 2: maybe around two thousand. Between two thousand and five and

1060
00:51:02,000 --> 00:51:05,560
Speaker 2: twenty ten, we started to see more and more native

1061
00:51:05,640 --> 00:51:09,640
Speaker 2: wildlife leaving the United States, and that as China and

1062
00:51:10,120 --> 00:51:16,240
Speaker 2: Vietnam became richer emerging economies. You had all these people

1063
00:51:16,320 --> 00:51:21,080
Speaker 2: there who had money to spend, and so they started

1064
00:51:21,080 --> 00:51:24,839
Speaker 2: to spend it on exotic stuff and wanting it a live,

1065
00:51:25,280 --> 00:51:28,759
Speaker 2: alive and dead both yeah, for the food trade and

1066
00:51:28,880 --> 00:51:31,400
Speaker 2: for the pet trade. So we started to see a

1067
00:51:31,480 --> 00:51:34,920
Speaker 2: lot of native animals leaving the United States, in particular reptiles.

1068
00:51:35,800 --> 00:51:38,759
Speaker 2: The turtle population in the southeastern United States has been

1069
00:51:38,800 --> 00:51:43,840
Speaker 2: absolutely decimated by the demand for turtle meat and pets

1070
00:51:44,160 --> 00:51:48,040
Speaker 2: in China and Vietnam, and it's become a big part

1071
00:51:48,080 --> 00:51:49,960
Speaker 2: of what the US Fishing and Wilife Service does is

1072
00:51:50,040 --> 00:51:53,959
Speaker 2: combating the trafficking of animals that are native to the US,

1073
00:51:54,120 --> 00:51:55,840
Speaker 2: or at least North America.

1074
00:51:55,960 --> 00:51:59,840
Speaker 4: Are black bear gallbladders, still think, because that's something like

1075
00:52:00,040 --> 00:52:02,960
Speaker 4: as a hunter, we always like you always always heard

1076
00:52:03,000 --> 00:52:03,360
Speaker 4: about it.

1077
00:52:03,560 --> 00:52:05,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, did you know you used to not be able

1078
00:52:05,680 --> 00:52:10,400
Speaker 1: to in some states, maybe all states, you could possess

1079
00:52:10,600 --> 00:52:14,640
Speaker 1: You couldn't possess even a bear's goalbler, right, Yeah, like

1080
00:52:14,760 --> 00:52:17,440
Speaker 1: you were. They changed it to be that you're allowed

1081
00:52:17,440 --> 00:52:19,880
Speaker 1: to have like one or something, but it would be

1082
00:52:19,960 --> 00:52:23,160
Speaker 1: that you like, you couldn't remove it from the field.

1083
00:52:23,280 --> 00:52:25,719
Speaker 2: Of even to your own I did know that, okay, Yeah,

1084
00:52:25,920 --> 00:52:28,279
Speaker 2: and even now it's not legal to sell it, right,

1085
00:52:28,400 --> 00:52:29,400
Speaker 2: you could, you could.

1086
00:52:29,320 --> 00:52:31,040
Speaker 1: Keep it, but I think I think some I don't.

1087
00:52:31,040 --> 00:52:32,480
Speaker 1: I don't know if it's even state or federal, but

1088
00:52:32,520 --> 00:52:36,000
Speaker 1: I remember reading somewhere that was like if if if

1089
00:52:36,040 --> 00:52:38,560
Speaker 1: you legally harvest a bear and you legally tag your bear,

1090
00:52:39,200 --> 00:52:42,719
Speaker 1: you are allowed to for whatever there there's no prohibition

1091
00:52:42,840 --> 00:52:45,600
Speaker 1: on you having it, right, you can't sell it. But

1092
00:52:45,880 --> 00:52:48,320
Speaker 1: at a time it was you couldn't have it, you know, ossession.

1093
00:52:48,800 --> 00:52:51,800
Speaker 1: So ostensibly, if you had a whole, ungutted bear in

1094
00:52:51,920 --> 00:52:56,080
Speaker 1: your possession in a truck, you were like technically in

1095
00:52:56,160 --> 00:52:57,600
Speaker 1: possession of a gallblad exactly.

1096
00:52:57,719 --> 00:53:00,359
Speaker 2: Okay, Yeah, it's kind of like having a loaded firearm. Right,

1097
00:53:00,440 --> 00:53:02,440
Speaker 2: It's like you're dead if you find out the game

1098
00:53:02,480 --> 00:53:03,759
Speaker 2: war's going to get you for it.

1099
00:53:04,400 --> 00:53:06,840
Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, it was like a per se violation.

1100
00:53:07,000 --> 00:53:09,600
Speaker 1: So how does stuff something like that, or take like

1101
00:53:09,719 --> 00:53:15,720
Speaker 1: spotted cats, I don't know whatever jaguar hides gallbladder whatever

1102
00:53:15,760 --> 00:53:18,640
Speaker 1: the hell you know about? How does it flow from?

1103
00:53:19,239 --> 00:53:22,440
Speaker 1: You know, people that are in the you know, in

1104
00:53:22,560 --> 00:53:27,360
Speaker 1: some rural area. You got some kid who's collecting turtles, right, Like,

1105
00:53:27,840 --> 00:53:29,960
Speaker 1: how does it flow and eventually wind up on a

1106
00:53:30,040 --> 00:53:32,120
Speaker 1: container ship? You know what I mean? Like like who's

1107
00:53:32,160 --> 00:53:37,560
Speaker 1: the sort of who winds up being the kingpin or

1108
00:53:37,880 --> 00:53:42,000
Speaker 1: the the sort of export agent on domestic wildlife? Like

1109
00:53:42,239 --> 00:53:43,719
Speaker 1: what does it bottleneck through?

1110
00:53:44,680 --> 00:53:47,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, so it varies, of course, depending on the wildlife

1111
00:53:47,600 --> 00:53:50,120
Speaker 2: and who's interested in buying it. Right, So let me

1112
00:53:50,239 --> 00:53:54,120
Speaker 2: give you a classic example of this absolutely phenomenal case

1113
00:53:54,160 --> 00:53:55,880
Speaker 2: that our agents did on the East Coast. It was

1114
00:53:55,920 --> 00:54:02,040
Speaker 2: called Operation Broken Glass Oh Elvers, Yes, yeah, good for you, Yeah,

1115
00:54:02,239 --> 00:54:07,400
Speaker 2: glass Eels. Right, that was an example where you know,

1116
00:54:07,600 --> 00:54:11,399
Speaker 2: for years, decades, generations even maybe there's been a glass

1117
00:54:11,520 --> 00:54:14,440
Speaker 2: eel fishery on the East Coast, and it's isn't it.

1118
00:54:14,520 --> 00:54:18,000
Speaker 4: There's only a couple states where it's legal to harvest them,

1119
00:54:18,160 --> 00:54:20,320
Speaker 4: like Maine and somewhere else, I think.

1120
00:54:20,719 --> 00:54:21,840
Speaker 3: Yeah, and I'm not familiar with.

1121
00:54:22,120 --> 00:54:25,120
Speaker 1: So there's a limited legal harvest just for listener's sake.

1122
00:54:25,160 --> 00:54:25,560
Speaker 6: What like.

1123
00:54:27,080 --> 00:54:29,480
Speaker 1: If you go to a sushi restaurant and you get unagi,

1124
00:54:29,960 --> 00:54:35,080
Speaker 1: okay of like smoked eel, that eel they're raising and

1125
00:54:35,200 --> 00:54:38,280
Speaker 1: finishing those eels in Asia.

1126
00:54:38,360 --> 00:54:39,960
Speaker 4: They're sending the juveniles zone, but.

1127
00:54:40,000 --> 00:54:43,800
Speaker 1: They can't propagate them. Yeah, so basically they're buying us

1128
00:54:45,239 --> 00:54:48,719
Speaker 1: bay like baby eels or glass eels or elvers. They're

1129
00:54:48,800 --> 00:54:52,960
Speaker 1: buying the babies in order to raise them and make

1130
00:54:53,000 --> 00:54:56,600
Speaker 1: a processed food item exactly. But it's so complicated to

1131
00:54:56,680 --> 00:54:58,440
Speaker 1: propagate them because they propagate out in the middle of

1132
00:54:58,480 --> 00:55:02,919
Speaker 1: the like yeah, like off the off of Bahamas, off yeah,

1133
00:55:02,960 --> 00:55:04,480
Speaker 1: off of Bermuda and sargas Le.

1134
00:55:04,560 --> 00:55:04,719
Speaker 3: See.

1135
00:55:05,520 --> 00:55:09,800
Speaker 1: So and there's some legal trade, but it's augmented greatly

1136
00:55:09,920 --> 00:55:11,720
Speaker 1: with illegal harvest, correct hugely.

1137
00:55:12,000 --> 00:55:15,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, they're like salmon, right, they go from freshwater saltwater,

1138
00:55:15,880 --> 00:55:19,320
Speaker 2: and but yeah, and glass eel just for your listeners,

1139
00:55:19,440 --> 00:55:21,480
Speaker 2: you know the reason it's called glass eel because it's

1140
00:55:21,560 --> 00:55:23,480
Speaker 2: they're almost see through that I think when they're young,

1141
00:55:23,520 --> 00:55:26,680
Speaker 2: they're just these little slippery things. So anyway, there it's

1142
00:55:26,719 --> 00:55:29,760
Speaker 2: been a there's been a legal harvest of those allowed.

1143
00:55:29,800 --> 00:55:32,760
Speaker 2: But what happened was this increased demand, as you described

1144
00:55:32,800 --> 00:55:36,640
Speaker 2: in Asia for the eels that are used in sushi restaurants.

1145
00:55:38,200 --> 00:55:42,320
Speaker 2: What happened was it's the local guys who are skilled

1146
00:55:42,480 --> 00:55:47,759
Speaker 2: at catching, you know, elvers, And what happens is these

1147
00:55:48,120 --> 00:55:50,960
Speaker 2: Chinese guys were showing up in those communities and they

1148
00:55:51,000 --> 00:55:55,040
Speaker 2: were going out to the different fish shops asking to

1149
00:55:55,160 --> 00:55:59,320
Speaker 2: buy eels and offering absurdly high prices for local fish shops.

1150
00:55:59,440 --> 00:55:59,640
Speaker 3: Yeah.

1151
00:56:00,080 --> 00:56:02,719
Speaker 4: Yeah, we're we're in the process of writing a book

1152
00:56:02,840 --> 00:56:05,719
Speaker 4: right now and I did some we're doing a thing

1153
00:56:05,880 --> 00:56:08,840
Speaker 4: about that cool and it was something like two thousand

1154
00:56:08,880 --> 00:56:09,800
Speaker 4: dollars a pound.

1155
00:56:09,880 --> 00:56:12,280
Speaker 3: Yeah for elvers. Yeah, it's crazy.

1156
00:56:14,080 --> 00:56:16,840
Speaker 6: Cucumbers I think, Yeah, well, you.

1157
00:56:16,880 --> 00:56:19,520
Speaker 2: Know, c cucumbers is another good example we could talk about.

1158
00:56:19,840 --> 00:56:23,040
Speaker 2: But basically basically the you know didn't answer to your question.

1159
00:56:23,160 --> 00:56:27,800
Speaker 2: What happens is uh the word Yeah, somebody from the

1160
00:56:28,080 --> 00:56:32,040
Speaker 2: from the end consumer seller shows up in that community

1161
00:56:32,440 --> 00:56:35,120
Speaker 2: and offers that high price and then corrupts the local

1162
00:56:35,160 --> 00:56:36,919
Speaker 2: guys who know how to do it. And that's true

1163
00:56:36,960 --> 00:56:39,439
Speaker 2: around the world. That's how it works with rhino horn

1164
00:56:39,520 --> 00:56:42,600
Speaker 2: in Africa, That's how it works with c cucumbers in Mexico.

1165
00:56:43,400 --> 00:56:48,359
Speaker 2: It's always the end consumer seller. And I don't want

1166
00:56:48,360 --> 00:56:50,200
Speaker 2: to just say Chinese because I don't want to, you know,

1167
00:56:50,960 --> 00:56:54,600
Speaker 2: disparage Chinese. But right now, China is a huge consumer

1168
00:56:54,640 --> 00:56:58,320
Speaker 2: of wildlife, so we'll use China as the example. Somebody

1169
00:56:58,360 --> 00:57:01,640
Speaker 2: from China shows up, the speaks English and starts offering

1170
00:57:01,680 --> 00:57:04,520
Speaker 2: a lot of money for whatever they're after, and it

1171
00:57:04,680 --> 00:57:07,840
Speaker 2: just snowballs and gets out of control and the local

1172
00:57:07,920 --> 00:57:08,840
Speaker 2: people are corrupted.

1173
00:57:09,680 --> 00:57:10,680
Speaker 3: Uh this this guy.

1174
00:57:10,840 --> 00:57:13,160
Speaker 2: There's kind of various levels of kingpins. You might have

1175
00:57:13,239 --> 00:57:17,280
Speaker 2: the local East Coast guy who's the kingpin organizing five

1176
00:57:17,400 --> 00:57:20,880
Speaker 2: fishermen who are then giving him all the elvers. He

1177
00:57:21,000 --> 00:57:23,360
Speaker 2: sells them to the Chinese guy who's kind of a kingpin,

1178
00:57:23,440 --> 00:57:25,640
Speaker 2: but he's moving it on to the next guy, and

1179
00:57:25,760 --> 00:57:28,360
Speaker 2: eventually it gets on that container and it ends up

1180
00:57:28,400 --> 00:57:29,480
Speaker 2: over in China.

1181
00:57:29,680 --> 00:57:33,400
Speaker 1: But it's on a container with air raiders and sophisticated

1182
00:57:33,400 --> 00:57:37,280
Speaker 1: I It's like, it's not like you're you know, it's

1183
00:57:37,320 --> 00:57:39,920
Speaker 1: not like you're sending batteries. Are you guys to keep

1184
00:57:39,960 --> 00:57:40,440
Speaker 1: them alive?

1185
00:57:40,600 --> 00:57:41,560
Speaker 3: Yeah? Yeah, that's hard.

1186
00:57:41,720 --> 00:57:45,080
Speaker 4: Are you guys involved with a lot of like inspections

1187
00:57:45,200 --> 00:57:48,440
Speaker 4: in port cities, like going on to ships and or

1188
00:57:48,440 --> 00:57:51,080
Speaker 4: do you have to have a reason to go look

1189
00:57:51,160 --> 00:57:51,680
Speaker 4: for stuff?

1190
00:57:52,480 --> 00:57:55,600
Speaker 2: No, Fish and Wildlife agents and inspectors. We have a

1191
00:57:55,720 --> 00:57:59,400
Speaker 2: uniformed division called the Inspection Division, and those those are

1192
00:57:59,440 --> 00:58:02,680
Speaker 2: basically customs officers. Their authority is at the ports of entry.

1193
00:58:03,440 --> 00:58:06,320
Speaker 2: They look and act just like customs officers. They just

1194
00:58:06,360 --> 00:58:09,800
Speaker 2: wear a brown uniform. But we have full customs authority.

1195
00:58:10,200 --> 00:58:12,880
Speaker 2: And sometimes even the US Customs doesn't remember that Fish

1196
00:58:12,920 --> 00:58:15,640
Speaker 2: and Wildlife Service has full customs authority. So when I

1197
00:58:15,760 --> 00:58:17,320
Speaker 2: was an agent, I could show up at the airport

1198
00:58:17,360 --> 00:58:19,800
Speaker 2: and I could crack open any package I wanted. I

1199
00:58:19,880 --> 00:58:22,200
Speaker 2: could search any passenger I wanted. I could go through

1200
00:58:22,240 --> 00:58:25,760
Speaker 2: their luggage because the Lasiact gives US customs authority.

1201
00:58:26,120 --> 00:58:27,160
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's kind of nice.

1202
00:58:27,480 --> 00:58:29,760
Speaker 1: Yeah, let's go back to the elvers thing for a minute. Yeah,

1203
00:58:30,640 --> 00:58:33,200
Speaker 1: if you are working a case like that, do you

1204
00:58:33,400 --> 00:58:41,720
Speaker 1: have sympathy on the locals who you use the word

1205
00:58:41,840 --> 00:58:46,520
Speaker 1: like corrupted? Is there ever an element of entrapment's not

1206
00:58:46,600 --> 00:58:50,720
Speaker 1: the right word. But like if you're going to someone

1207
00:58:51,560 --> 00:58:55,240
Speaker 1: you know who's hard on their you know, hard up,

1208
00:58:56,280 --> 00:58:59,560
Speaker 1: and you make this offer to them, you know, two

1209
00:58:59,560 --> 00:59:02,760
Speaker 1: thousand what is two thousand bucks a pound? Right? Is

1210
00:59:03,200 --> 00:59:06,640
Speaker 1: that guy of interest to you? Are you mostly interested

1211
00:59:06,720 --> 00:59:11,560
Speaker 1: in the person who is recruiting or would you naturally

1212
00:59:11,720 --> 00:59:14,040
Speaker 1: try to work that case to who is exporting?

1213
00:59:15,000 --> 00:59:18,080
Speaker 2: I think every fish and while er special agent who

1214
00:59:18,440 --> 00:59:23,000
Speaker 2: knew what they were doing would focus more on the drivers. Right,

1215
00:59:23,440 --> 00:59:24,919
Speaker 2: So they're going to try to get up as high

1216
00:59:25,120 --> 00:59:27,960
Speaker 2: in this chain of bad guys as you can. But

1217
00:59:28,040 --> 00:59:30,480
Speaker 2: it doesn't mean you ignore the other bad guys, right.

1218
00:59:31,040 --> 00:59:34,520
Speaker 2: I always you know there's this obsession sometimes with only

1219
00:59:34,640 --> 00:59:37,080
Speaker 2: getting the kingpin. Well, i'll tell you what. It can

1220
00:59:37,160 --> 00:59:39,560
Speaker 2: take years to get a kingpin, and while you're working

1221
00:59:39,640 --> 00:59:42,440
Speaker 2: on it, a lot of crimes occurring, right, And so

1222
00:59:42,760 --> 00:59:46,600
Speaker 2: there's absolutely no excuse for not getting the lower level

1223
00:59:46,680 --> 00:59:51,280
Speaker 2: people too, in part because they can often become great informants.

1224
00:59:51,520 --> 00:59:51,640
Speaker 3: Right.

1225
00:59:52,160 --> 00:59:54,439
Speaker 2: You catch those people at the lower level, they don't

1226
00:59:54,440 --> 00:59:56,520
Speaker 2: want to go to jail, and they want to minimize

1227
00:59:56,520 --> 01:00:01,040
Speaker 2: their penalty. They'll often cooperate in exchange for a lower sentence.

1228
01:00:01,120 --> 01:00:04,920
Speaker 2: So you focus on the whole picture, right, But of course,

1229
01:00:05,440 --> 01:00:07,880
Speaker 2: if you were to only catch the local guys who

1230
01:00:07,960 --> 01:00:10,320
Speaker 2: are fishing for the elvers, you're not doing your job

1231
01:00:10,520 --> 01:00:13,840
Speaker 2: because the bad guys are that are buying them are

1232
01:00:13,880 --> 01:00:16,840
Speaker 2: just going to find other people to do it. So, yeah,

1233
01:00:16,960 --> 01:00:18,880
Speaker 2: you want to focus as high as you can because

1234
01:00:18,880 --> 01:00:20,240
Speaker 2: you want to kill it. You want to kill the

1235
01:00:20,320 --> 01:00:23,240
Speaker 2: trade or you want to kill the illegal trade. That's

1236
01:00:23,320 --> 01:00:25,040
Speaker 2: the goal, and you're not going to do that by

1237
01:00:25,120 --> 01:00:28,480
Speaker 2: focusing on just the kingpin or just the catchers.

1238
01:00:28,560 --> 01:00:30,400
Speaker 3: You got to get them all. Yeah, yeah, as many

1239
01:00:30,400 --> 01:00:30,760
Speaker 3: as you can.

1240
01:00:30,880 --> 01:00:33,960
Speaker 1: Anyway, did your work a case? I think Krim was saying,

1241
01:00:34,080 --> 01:00:35,680
Speaker 1: did you work a butterfly case?

1242
01:00:35,800 --> 01:00:36,000
Speaker 3: Yeah?

1243
01:00:36,680 --> 01:00:40,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's like the first kind of case I did

1244
01:00:41,160 --> 01:00:43,640
Speaker 2: that was kind of bigger on my own, and it's

1245
01:00:43,680 --> 01:00:47,120
Speaker 2: just coincidence that I got assigned to it. But there

1246
01:00:47,240 --> 01:00:50,760
Speaker 2: was this Japanese national named Yoshi ko Jima who was

1247
01:00:50,880 --> 01:00:55,600
Speaker 2: kind of notorious for trafficking in endangered butterflies for what purpose?

1248
01:00:55,680 --> 01:00:56,560
Speaker 1: Decoration decorations?

1249
01:00:56,600 --> 01:01:03,040
Speaker 5: Why everybody left the whole the drama of you know,

1250
01:01:03,240 --> 01:01:04,960
Speaker 5: you're just writing the script in your head.

1251
01:01:05,280 --> 01:01:12,840
Speaker 6: Yeah, I'm just picturing every episode of this like New Undercover.

1252
01:01:13,560 --> 01:01:14,600
Speaker 1: You know, it's just it's.

1253
01:01:14,840 --> 01:01:18,440
Speaker 4: Butterfly Collectors, actually the head of the triad.

1254
01:01:18,760 --> 01:01:21,760
Speaker 6: It's not, it's not it's not about drugs. It's about

1255
01:01:21,800 --> 01:01:25,200
Speaker 6: all this other stuff and the weird, you know, interesting

1256
01:01:26,160 --> 01:01:30,880
Speaker 6: kind of interests of decoration or food or whatever.

1257
01:01:31,400 --> 01:01:35,040
Speaker 1: I haven't really watched any serial shows since Dukes of Hazards.

1258
01:01:35,080 --> 01:01:38,000
Speaker 1: But the way it works in Dukes of Hazard is

1259
01:01:38,040 --> 01:01:42,160
Speaker 1: every episode, a new bad guy comes to town. Yeah,

1260
01:01:42,240 --> 01:01:44,960
Speaker 1: I mean like right, so every episode is like a

1261
01:01:45,120 --> 01:01:54,080
Speaker 1: new critter. There was always tension, always tension between Roscoe Peak,

1262
01:01:54,080 --> 01:01:59,720
Speaker 1: Old Train and uh, who is the Kleatus? Right? And

1263
01:01:59,760 --> 01:02:03,000
Speaker 1: then you know Bowl and Luke and who drove the

1264
01:02:03,440 --> 01:02:08,440
Speaker 1: toe truck cooter where boss Hog fall in. He's always

1265
01:02:08,440 --> 01:02:12,040
Speaker 1: there's always there and boss Hog every episode and new

1266
01:02:12,200 --> 01:02:15,240
Speaker 1: new bad guys use your pair of bad guys comes

1267
01:02:15,320 --> 01:02:18,800
Speaker 1: into town and they like aligned with Boss Hog, often

1268
01:02:18,880 --> 01:02:22,880
Speaker 1: double crossing him. They're vanquished in the end by bowling

1269
01:02:22,960 --> 01:02:26,240
Speaker 1: Luke something. You will get blown up by dynamite on

1270
01:02:26,280 --> 01:02:31,600
Speaker 1: an arrow and then like a week later, like a

1271
01:02:31,760 --> 01:02:34,880
Speaker 1: new bad guy emerges. And for this show, like every

1272
01:02:34,960 --> 01:02:38,280
Speaker 1: episode is I hate to the butterfly episode.

1273
01:02:38,360 --> 01:02:40,240
Speaker 3: I hate to tell you this, but Cooter was probably

1274
01:02:40,360 --> 01:02:45,320
Speaker 3: a bad elver poacher. I'm pretty sure he was either

1275
01:02:45,400 --> 01:02:47,400
Speaker 3: that or hawks. He was killing hawks one and the other.

1276
01:02:47,920 --> 01:02:48,680
Speaker 1: I'm sure he was.

1277
01:02:49,080 --> 01:02:53,120
Speaker 2: Well, you know, Bowl and Luke were convicted moonshiners. There

1278
01:02:53,160 --> 01:02:55,760
Speaker 2: you go, so they were they were troublemakers. Anyways, one

1279
01:02:55,800 --> 01:02:58,360
Speaker 2: crime leads to another. Yeah, probably poachers too.

1280
01:02:58,800 --> 01:03:02,320
Speaker 1: So uh, off that subject and off subject. How good

1281
01:03:02,320 --> 01:03:03,760
Speaker 1: of a TV show? This is going to wind up

1282
01:03:03,760 --> 01:03:08,160
Speaker 1: in butterfly decorations. Yeah, they're they're displayed what in the

1283
01:03:08,200 --> 01:03:08,800
Speaker 1: glass case?

1284
01:03:09,080 --> 01:03:09,560
Speaker 3: Sometimes?

1285
01:03:09,640 --> 01:03:12,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, a lot of You'll see them a lot in

1286
01:03:12,600 --> 01:03:16,040
Speaker 2: frames on people's walls. Start paying attention. Even in TV shows,

1287
01:03:16,080 --> 01:03:18,480
Speaker 2: you'll see them in the background in frames on walls

1288
01:03:18,520 --> 01:03:19,240
Speaker 2: with their wings.

1289
01:03:19,000 --> 01:03:20,000
Speaker 6: Spread like needle.

1290
01:03:20,400 --> 01:03:22,080
Speaker 1: You ever watching the show and be like, oh, yeah,

1291
01:03:22,120 --> 01:03:23,120
Speaker 1: you're not supposed to have that one.

1292
01:03:23,240 --> 01:03:25,360
Speaker 3: Well, no, I haven't seen that. I haven't seen that.

1293
01:03:25,520 --> 01:03:26,720
Speaker 3: There's there's tons that are.

1294
01:03:26,680 --> 01:03:31,040
Speaker 1: Legal, right, mistake, Well the monarch might get listed.

1295
01:03:31,360 --> 01:03:34,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, right, exactly. And a lot of times butterflies that

1296
01:03:35,000 --> 01:03:38,120
Speaker 2: are not a problem here or not. When I say problem,

1297
01:03:38,160 --> 01:03:41,240
Speaker 2: I mean they're not valuable, they're not traded, are super

1298
01:03:41,360 --> 01:03:42,440
Speaker 2: valuable in other countries.

1299
01:03:42,960 --> 01:03:47,520
Speaker 4: Does it because there's like species that are classified as

1300
01:03:47,640 --> 01:03:51,360
Speaker 4: endangered here and then there's like the International Union or

1301
01:03:51,520 --> 01:03:54,360
Speaker 4: something or other. Yeah, you see end So like the

1302
01:03:54,520 --> 01:03:57,560
Speaker 4: eels are listed by I think that, I see you.

1303
01:03:58,000 --> 01:03:59,160
Speaker 3: I'm glad you brought this up.

1304
01:03:59,200 --> 01:04:00,400
Speaker 4: And then they're not here.

1305
01:04:00,760 --> 01:04:04,560
Speaker 1: Because International Union of the i U c N.

1306
01:04:04,800 --> 01:04:06,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, I forget what the C stands for it, but

1307
01:04:06,520 --> 01:04:11,320
Speaker 2: it's concert anyway. So but I so in terms of

1308
01:04:12,080 --> 01:04:15,440
Speaker 2: the law and law enforcement and crimes, the i U

1309
01:04:15,560 --> 01:04:16,720
Speaker 2: c N means nothing.

1310
01:04:16,840 --> 01:04:22,240
Speaker 4: Okay, Yeah, the International Union, we think the exactly And.

1311
01:04:22,320 --> 01:04:24,600
Speaker 2: It's not to say that their science isn't legit and

1312
01:04:24,720 --> 01:04:28,280
Speaker 2: that it should be. But from a special agent's perspective,

1313
01:04:28,320 --> 01:04:31,240
Speaker 2: we care about two things. One is is it listed

1314
01:04:31,760 --> 01:04:35,360
Speaker 2: as endangered or threatened under the US Endangered Species Act,

1315
01:04:35,400 --> 01:04:37,760
Speaker 2: because that's the only that's the law that has criminal penalties.

1316
01:04:38,480 --> 01:04:40,400
Speaker 2: The second thing we care about is whether or not

1317
01:04:40,640 --> 01:04:43,600
Speaker 2: it is listed under either Appendix one or two of

1318
01:04:43,720 --> 01:04:46,960
Speaker 2: the Convention on International Trade and Endangered Species.

1319
01:04:46,640 --> 01:04:47,240
Speaker 3: That's SITIS.

1320
01:04:47,920 --> 01:04:50,120
Speaker 2: And the reason we care about that is because SITIS

1321
01:04:50,760 --> 01:04:54,520
Speaker 2: is it is incorporated into the e s A. So

1322
01:04:54,640 --> 01:04:59,240
Speaker 2: the Endangered Species Act allows us to enforce the site's provisions,

1323
01:04:59,280 --> 01:05:02,160
Speaker 2: so it becomes a violation of the Endangered Species Act

1324
01:05:02,720 --> 01:05:06,040
Speaker 2: to import or export an animal in violation ast siiteise.

1325
01:05:06,680 --> 01:05:09,520
Speaker 2: So sites and the EESA are what special agents are

1326
01:05:09,600 --> 01:05:13,360
Speaker 2: looking at. And a lot of butterflies. There are a

1327
01:05:13,440 --> 01:05:16,600
Speaker 2: number of butterflies listed as endangered under the US Endangered

1328
01:05:16,600 --> 01:05:17,800
Speaker 2: Species Act, so obviously we.

1329
01:05:17,880 --> 01:05:18,320
Speaker 3: Care about that.

1330
01:05:19,080 --> 01:05:21,880
Speaker 2: But then there's a whole ton of butterflies that are

1331
01:05:21,920 --> 01:05:25,600
Speaker 2: listed is either Appendix one or two under SITESE, and

1332
01:05:25,760 --> 01:05:26,960
Speaker 2: so we also care about that.

1333
01:05:27,200 --> 01:05:29,440
Speaker 1: So you can be yeah, you can, you can be

1334
01:05:29,560 --> 01:05:31,480
Speaker 1: on site these but not be endangered.

1335
01:05:31,880 --> 01:05:32,080
Speaker 3: Yes.

1336
01:05:32,440 --> 01:05:36,600
Speaker 1: For instance, bobcats, IUCN has them as a species of

1337
01:05:36,680 --> 01:05:39,960
Speaker 1: Least Concern there in some states they are a non

1338
01:05:40,040 --> 01:05:42,680
Speaker 1: game animal and some states they're listed as a fur bear.

1339
01:05:43,000 --> 01:05:46,840
Speaker 1: But they still are site these right right because they

1340
01:05:46,960 --> 01:05:49,800
Speaker 1: resemble Yes, I guess the logic of it, which probably

1341
01:05:49,840 --> 01:05:51,720
Speaker 1: doesn't matter to you guys, but the logic of it

1342
01:05:51,840 --> 01:05:55,280
Speaker 1: is it's a spotted cat, right And so in trying

1343
01:05:55,320 --> 01:05:58,040
Speaker 1: to track all these endangered spotted cats around the world,

1344
01:05:58,120 --> 01:05:59,760
Speaker 1: you need to pay attention to bobcats so that you

1345
01:05:59,800 --> 01:06:05,120
Speaker 1: don't don't have spotted cats that aren't bobcats moving as Bobcats, right,

1346
01:06:05,400 --> 01:06:07,120
Speaker 1: or so I could be screwing that up, but something like.

1347
01:06:07,120 --> 01:06:07,960
Speaker 3: That, right. Yeah.

1348
01:06:08,040 --> 01:06:10,560
Speaker 2: And with siteismember, it's an international agreement.

1349
01:06:10,720 --> 01:06:10,840
Speaker 3: Right.

1350
01:06:11,040 --> 01:06:15,160
Speaker 2: So say, if Canada wants to put Bobcats on as

1351
01:06:15,240 --> 01:06:19,680
Speaker 2: sitey's Appendix two, and they get enough support among the

1352
01:06:19,720 --> 01:06:24,000
Speaker 2: site's membership and it's voted, that's Bobcats become a sights too.

1353
01:06:24,440 --> 01:06:26,680
Speaker 2: The US is obligated to enforce.

1354
01:06:26,600 --> 01:06:27,439
Speaker 3: That law, I think.

1355
01:06:27,520 --> 01:06:30,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, So even though we wouldn't have put them on site's,

1356
01:06:30,920 --> 01:06:33,640
Speaker 2: if Canada wants to or Mexico wants to put them

1357
01:06:33,680 --> 01:06:36,040
Speaker 2: on and they get the votes, then we're obligated to

1358
01:06:36,200 --> 01:06:36,880
Speaker 2: enforce that, and.

1359
01:06:36,960 --> 01:06:39,480
Speaker 1: That becomes your responsibility in the field exactly.

1360
01:06:39,760 --> 01:06:44,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, So we're always looking anytime anytime we realize an

1361
01:06:44,240 --> 01:06:47,480
Speaker 2: animal involved in something as a site's animal or listed

1362
01:06:47,520 --> 01:06:51,000
Speaker 2: as threatened or endangered at peaks our interest because there's

1363
01:06:51,080 --> 01:06:53,040
Speaker 2: probably some illegal activity afoot.

1364
01:06:53,440 --> 01:06:56,720
Speaker 1: Yeah, I want to I want you to tell the

1365
01:06:56,760 --> 01:07:00,200
Speaker 1: full butterfly story, but I want to tell you for sure. Yeah, Well,

1366
01:07:00,800 --> 01:07:02,800
Speaker 1: how much have you like to share? A funny anecdote

1367
01:07:02,880 --> 01:07:06,560
Speaker 1: is one years ago we were in doing some work

1368
01:07:06,640 --> 01:07:09,880
Speaker 1: in Guyana and had these two ri river turtles and

1369
01:07:09,920 --> 01:07:12,240
Speaker 1: they have their native words for him. But I remember

1370
01:07:12,360 --> 01:07:16,800
Speaker 1: they would there's one turtle that even the tribe we

1371
01:07:16,840 --> 01:07:20,480
Speaker 1: were with, and explaining the turtle, they would be like,

1372
01:07:20,560 --> 01:07:25,760
Speaker 1: there's the meat turtle and there's the Sitis turtle. And

1373
01:07:25,840 --> 01:07:27,720
Speaker 1: I couldn't figure out to be days to figure out

1374
01:07:27,760 --> 01:07:30,040
Speaker 1: what they were saying. I'm like, oh my god, he's

1375
01:07:30,040 --> 01:07:33,280
Speaker 1: talking about the Sitis tree. Because they used to traffic

1376
01:07:33,360 --> 01:07:35,400
Speaker 1: in those turtles, you know, they would sell those turtles,

1377
01:07:35,400 --> 01:07:39,439
Speaker 1: and they knew him, like, you know, the damn Sitis turtle. Yeah,

1378
01:07:39,600 --> 01:07:42,919
Speaker 1: the one you touch, the one you don't touch. Yeah. Yeah.

1379
01:07:42,960 --> 01:07:46,560
Speaker 2: In most countries don't have anything like the Endangered Species Act,

1380
01:07:46,680 --> 01:07:49,880
Speaker 2: so they they rely only on what's listed in SITIS.

1381
01:07:51,240 --> 01:07:53,000
Speaker 2: Great Britain, for example, you know, they have their own

1382
01:07:53,040 --> 01:07:56,280
Speaker 2: Wildlife Act, but when it comes to the International Species there,

1383
01:07:56,280 --> 01:08:00,880
Speaker 2: they're only enforcing Sitis you know. So yeah, but if butterflies.

1384
01:08:00,920 --> 01:08:01,120
Speaker 3: Yeah.

1385
01:08:01,200 --> 01:08:04,120
Speaker 2: So this I was a pretty new agent, and we

1386
01:08:04,240 --> 01:08:06,919
Speaker 2: got a tip that this guy, Yoshiko Jimo is coming

1387
01:08:07,000 --> 01:08:09,600
Speaker 2: to the International Bug Fair at the LA Museum of

1388
01:08:09,680 --> 01:08:12,680
Speaker 2: Natural History, which go ahead and laugh, but there is

1389
01:08:12,800 --> 01:08:16,479
Speaker 2: such a thing as the Bug Pare. It's actually the

1390
01:08:16,720 --> 01:08:20,200
Speaker 2: largest event that the Museum of Natural History hosts every

1391
01:08:20,280 --> 01:08:23,040
Speaker 2: year in LA. They get about ten thousand visitors a day,

1392
01:08:23,800 --> 01:08:27,759
Speaker 2: and it's everything. It's kids running around who are interested

1393
01:08:27,840 --> 01:08:31,600
Speaker 2: in scorpions, and then there are these serious collectors that

1394
01:08:31,800 --> 01:08:35,759
Speaker 2: go and they sell high end butterflies to each other basically,

1395
01:08:36,400 --> 01:08:39,480
Speaker 2: but some of these things, you know, the most endangered

1396
01:08:39,680 --> 01:08:42,360
Speaker 2: bird wing butterfly could go for ten thousand dollars for

1397
01:08:42,439 --> 01:08:47,000
Speaker 2: a male female pair. Easy alive, no dead, Yeah, they're

1398
01:08:47,040 --> 01:08:51,000
Speaker 2: not really valuable alive. People want them displayed, pinned in

1399
01:08:51,080 --> 01:08:53,680
Speaker 2: a frame or in a display box. So again, it's

1400
01:08:53,720 --> 01:08:56,760
Speaker 2: a status thing. A friend of mine describes it as

1401
01:08:56,960 --> 01:09:01,840
Speaker 2: kind of like the obsessive baseball card collector, like somebody

1402
01:09:01,880 --> 01:09:05,439
Speaker 2: who would spend ten thousand dollars for obscure baseball player

1403
01:09:05,600 --> 01:09:05,920
Speaker 2: art or.

1404
01:09:05,960 --> 01:09:07,559
Speaker 3: Something, yeah, or art. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1405
01:09:07,560 --> 01:09:09,280
Speaker 2: I have another friend who talks about it like it's

1406
01:09:09,800 --> 01:09:12,519
Speaker 2: you know, if you if you steal a van, go,

1407
01:09:12,720 --> 01:09:15,479
Speaker 2: what do you do with it? You know, let's you know,

1408
01:09:16,080 --> 01:09:17,439
Speaker 2: where do you display your stole?

1409
01:09:18,439 --> 01:09:19,439
Speaker 1: Saying your buddies see that?

1410
01:09:20,000 --> 01:09:24,479
Speaker 3: Yeah exactly, yeah, yeah, yeah, he always buddies. Yeah.

1411
01:09:24,680 --> 01:09:26,600
Speaker 2: He described it as you have a secret room in

1412
01:09:26,640 --> 01:09:28,840
Speaker 2: your house with a secret door and when certain people

1413
01:09:28,880 --> 01:09:30,360
Speaker 2: come over, you open the door and you're like, my

1414
01:09:30,479 --> 01:09:33,160
Speaker 2: van go right, I mean, what's the point. But that's

1415
01:09:33,439 --> 01:09:35,679
Speaker 2: that's kind of the driver for these things. And they're beautiful,

1416
01:09:35,720 --> 01:09:39,880
Speaker 2: they're they're cool. But anyway, Yoshi Kojima was had already

1417
01:09:39,920 --> 01:09:43,719
Speaker 2: been on our radar screen. This agent named John Mendoza

1418
01:09:43,800 --> 01:09:46,880
Speaker 2: in California had tracked him for years and believed he

1419
01:09:47,040 --> 01:09:49,559
Speaker 2: was going into Death Valley National Park and the Grand

1420
01:09:49,640 --> 01:09:53,000
Speaker 2: Canyon National Park and poaching butterflies and then selling them

1421
01:09:53,040 --> 01:09:56,680
Speaker 2: overseas himself himself. Yeah, so John had been doing a

1422
01:09:56,720 --> 01:09:59,240
Speaker 2: lot of surveillance trying to catch Kojima in the act.

1423
01:09:59,400 --> 01:10:02,200
Speaker 2: But as you can imagine, doing surveillance in Death Valley

1424
01:10:02,320 --> 01:10:04,640
Speaker 2: or just not easy because you're gonna get seen, right,

1425
01:10:05,360 --> 01:10:11,720
Speaker 2: And eventually, to John's chagrin, you know, justified chagrin, he

1426
01:10:11,840 --> 01:10:15,760
Speaker 2: was ordered by his commands chain of command to close

1427
01:10:15,800 --> 01:10:19,680
Speaker 2: the investigation. And I loved it when I picked up

1428
01:10:19,680 --> 01:10:21,840
Speaker 2: the Kojimaccase, first thing I did is I looked up

1429
01:10:21,920 --> 01:10:24,679
Speaker 2: John's old reports, and his closing line on that last

1430
01:10:24,760 --> 01:10:27,640
Speaker 2: report was awesome. You know, It's just like, you know,

1431
01:10:27,680 --> 01:10:30,320
Speaker 2: he just dimed out his supervisor. He's like my supervisor

1432
01:10:30,400 --> 01:10:33,479
Speaker 2: ordered me to close this case. Closed, just pretty sharp

1433
01:10:33,760 --> 01:10:34,479
Speaker 2: for what reason.

1434
01:10:35,320 --> 01:10:35,479
Speaker 1: You know.

1435
01:10:36,040 --> 01:10:38,479
Speaker 2: I didn't think it was a good enough priority. Didn't

1436
01:10:38,479 --> 01:10:40,880
Speaker 2: think it was going to succeed whatever. Okay, you know,

1437
01:10:41,880 --> 01:10:44,560
Speaker 2: twenty years ago and farther there, there were still some

1438
01:10:44,680 --> 01:10:48,360
Speaker 2: agents around who didn't really understand why it was important

1439
01:10:48,360 --> 01:10:51,959
Speaker 2: to work on international trafficking cases. Didn't think it was important.

1440
01:10:52,560 --> 01:10:56,040
Speaker 2: Disagreed that it was important. So, you know, I don't

1441
01:10:56,040 --> 01:10:58,080
Speaker 2: know if that was the case there. Sure, it just happened.

1442
01:10:59,400 --> 01:11:03,240
Speaker 2: So the story was Kojima is coming into LA. We

1443
01:11:03,320 --> 01:11:05,800
Speaker 2: had an informant who we were working with, and we

1444
01:11:06,040 --> 01:11:08,040
Speaker 2: and my boss said, this is a great opportunity for

1445
01:11:08,120 --> 01:11:10,880
Speaker 2: you to work with an informant. You're going to go

1446
01:11:10,920 --> 01:11:13,080
Speaker 2: to the fair. The informant's going to make the contact.

1447
01:11:13,160 --> 01:11:15,839
Speaker 2: We're going to see if Kojima will admit to anything

1448
01:11:16,400 --> 01:11:20,320
Speaker 2: kind of see right, So I thought, my job is

1449
01:11:20,400 --> 01:11:23,200
Speaker 2: just to get the guy wired up and supervise make

1450
01:11:23,240 --> 01:11:26,200
Speaker 2: sure nothing bad happens. So I meet with the informant

1451
01:11:26,240 --> 01:11:28,719
Speaker 2: the night before, we show him out of work the equipment.

1452
01:11:28,840 --> 01:11:31,000
Speaker 2: He goes to the fair the next day and for

1453
01:11:31,120 --> 01:11:33,719
Speaker 2: whatever reason, Yoshi Kojima, can.

1454
01:11:33,640 --> 01:11:35,799
Speaker 1: You can you real quick, who hells the informant?

1455
01:11:36,120 --> 01:11:40,360
Speaker 2: Informant is somebody else involved in the insect trade.

1456
01:11:40,600 --> 01:11:41,760
Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm not gonna name him.

1457
01:11:41,680 --> 01:11:44,760
Speaker 1: But who's already been caught or they're like uh uh no.

1458
01:11:45,080 --> 01:11:47,920
Speaker 2: He was kind of irritated that Kojima was undercutting all

1459
01:11:47,960 --> 01:11:48,479
Speaker 2: his prices.

1460
01:11:49,439 --> 01:11:51,040
Speaker 3: Yeah, and that happens a lot.

1461
01:11:51,439 --> 01:11:56,320
Speaker 6: So you keep you keep certain informants involved.

1462
01:11:55,880 --> 01:11:58,040
Speaker 3: In yeah, in your orbit. Yeah.

1463
01:11:58,320 --> 01:12:00,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean to be a good age and you

1464
01:12:00,320 --> 01:12:02,920
Speaker 2: really have to. You have to make contact with people

1465
01:12:03,040 --> 01:12:05,200
Speaker 2: in the trade, right, and you have to develop trust

1466
01:12:05,280 --> 01:12:07,120
Speaker 2: with them and try to get them to help you.

1467
01:12:07,840 --> 01:12:09,880
Speaker 2: Because animals can't tell you what's going on.

1468
01:12:10,040 --> 01:12:10,760
Speaker 3: They can't call you.

1469
01:12:11,080 --> 01:12:14,320
Speaker 2: No wolf or grizzly bear California condor is going to

1470
01:12:14,360 --> 01:12:18,880
Speaker 2: call you and say, guys are shooting me. So yeah,

1471
01:12:18,920 --> 01:12:20,800
Speaker 2: you get to know a lot of different people, and

1472
01:12:21,160 --> 01:12:24,320
Speaker 2: the motivations are varied. Sometimes you'll arrest somebody and then

1473
01:12:24,360 --> 01:12:25,760
Speaker 2: they're like, well, I'm not going to go down for

1474
01:12:25,840 --> 01:12:28,680
Speaker 2: this by myself. I'm going to be an informant for

1475
01:12:28,760 --> 01:12:32,400
Speaker 2: you and get a better sentence. Other Times it's people

1476
01:12:32,439 --> 01:12:34,559
Speaker 2: who are trying to do things legit and they're getting

1477
01:12:34,600 --> 01:12:37,559
Speaker 2: undercut by people like Kojima. They're pissed off, so they're

1478
01:12:37,640 --> 01:12:41,120
Speaker 2: going to turn Sometimes the best people to go to

1479
01:12:41,240 --> 01:12:43,479
Speaker 2: are ex wives, ex girlfriends, ex.

1480
01:12:43,400 --> 01:12:44,839
Speaker 1: Boyfriends, ex husbress.

1481
01:12:45,400 --> 01:12:48,599
Speaker 2: I'm telling you, you're investigating somebody and you find out.

1482
01:12:48,439 --> 01:12:51,320
Speaker 3: They're divorced, the first person you talk to is their ex.

1483
01:12:52,000 --> 01:12:57,040
Speaker 2: Definitely, Definitely, they will give you fantastic information about what's

1484
01:12:57,120 --> 01:13:00,840
Speaker 2: going on. Oh yeah, I've had so many wives invite me,

1485
01:13:01,200 --> 01:13:04,280
Speaker 2: give me permission to search their husband's garage or whatever

1486
01:13:04,400 --> 01:13:07,760
Speaker 2: because they're just tired of the reptile smell out in

1487
01:13:07,800 --> 01:13:08,320
Speaker 2: the garage.

1488
01:13:08,400 --> 01:13:09,720
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's happened more than once.

1489
01:13:10,960 --> 01:13:17,040
Speaker 1: So think own wife. I mean, she's like, please go

1490
01:13:17,120 --> 01:13:20,280
Speaker 1: look at the garage that's out there.

1491
01:13:20,520 --> 01:13:21,559
Speaker 3: That literally happened.

1492
01:13:21,640 --> 01:13:23,840
Speaker 2: We showed up at a house in San Diego and

1493
01:13:23,920 --> 01:13:26,800
Speaker 2: knocked on the door and the wife answered, and we

1494
01:13:26,960 --> 01:13:32,640
Speaker 2: identified ourselves and she said, what's he done? Now, we

1495
01:13:32,760 --> 01:13:35,599
Speaker 2: explained it and she goes, oh, he is garage. Our

1496
01:13:35,680 --> 01:13:39,120
Speaker 2: garage is full of reptiles. And my partner said, can

1497
01:13:39,160 --> 01:13:41,880
Speaker 2: we take a look. She's like, yeah, walk out, and

1498
01:13:41,880 --> 01:13:44,400
Speaker 2: there's there's endangered monitors out there, and.

1499
01:13:44,560 --> 01:13:47,080
Speaker 3: Uh, yeah he was. He was in trouble in more

1500
01:13:47,120 --> 01:13:47,760
Speaker 3: ways than one.

1501
01:13:48,479 --> 01:13:52,639
Speaker 2: But anyway, so I go to the fair thinking I'm

1502
01:13:52,720 --> 01:13:55,160
Speaker 2: just going to be kind of overseeing our informant, right,

1503
01:13:55,520 --> 01:13:58,160
Speaker 2: But Kojima is very cagey. He's the member, he's the

1504
01:13:58,200 --> 01:14:01,000
Speaker 2: guy that invented the phrase fish and Wild guys, and

1505
01:14:01,240 --> 01:14:05,960
Speaker 2: he he was very paranoid. He John Mendoza had actually

1506
01:14:05,960 --> 01:14:08,000
Speaker 2: gone out and interviewed him at one point, kind of

1507
01:14:08,040 --> 01:14:10,479
Speaker 2: frustrated because he knew his case was getting shut down,

1508
01:14:10,600 --> 01:14:12,679
Speaker 2: so he just thought, what the heck, I'll go interview

1509
01:14:12,760 --> 01:14:17,000
Speaker 2: Kojima and Kojima. Later, when I was working Kojima undercover,

1510
01:14:17,160 --> 01:14:20,040
Speaker 2: Kojima bragged to me about how he had outsmarted the

1511
01:14:20,080 --> 01:14:24,680
Speaker 2: Fish and Wild Guys and this agent, which is a

1512
01:14:24,760 --> 01:14:31,799
Speaker 2: dumb thing to say to an undercover. And the Kojima

1513
01:14:31,880 --> 01:14:35,519
Speaker 2: case really kickstarted a long few years of me doing

1514
01:14:35,840 --> 01:14:39,679
Speaker 2: pretty complicated undercover work. I actually ended up starting undercover

1515
01:14:39,840 --> 01:14:43,080
Speaker 2: businesses and working the roller Pigeon guys, and I made

1516
01:14:43,120 --> 01:14:46,200
Speaker 2: some great undercover cases. And it was all because I

1517
01:14:46,320 --> 01:14:49,960
Speaker 2: learned how to do undercover work getting Kojima. It took

1518
01:14:50,000 --> 01:14:52,400
Speaker 2: me three years to get that guy, and my boss

1519
01:14:52,680 --> 01:14:55,839
Speaker 2: was absolutely fantastic mentor. She's one of the greatest undercover

1520
01:14:56,439 --> 01:14:58,679
Speaker 2: fish and wildlife agents. Ever, as far as I'm concerned,

1521
01:14:58,720 --> 01:15:02,120
Speaker 2: Marie Palladini and she really tutored me on how to

1522
01:15:02,280 --> 01:15:06,000
Speaker 2: do this work, because what happened at the fair was

1523
01:15:06,120 --> 01:15:08,800
Speaker 2: Kojima would not talk to our informant. He talked to him,

1524
01:15:08,840 --> 01:15:11,320
Speaker 2: but he just wouldn't. He wouldn't get tripped up and

1525
01:15:11,439 --> 01:15:15,160
Speaker 2: say anything even remotely incriminating. So by the end of

1526
01:15:15,200 --> 01:15:17,519
Speaker 2: the day, I was kind of frustrated that our informant

1527
01:15:17,560 --> 01:15:20,160
Speaker 2: wasn't getting anywhere, and it wasn't his fault. So I

1528
01:15:20,320 --> 01:15:23,000
Speaker 2: just you know, it's a public insect fair, So I

1529
01:15:23,120 --> 01:15:25,559
Speaker 2: just walked Kojima at a booth. He was selling stuff.

1530
01:15:25,640 --> 01:15:28,080
Speaker 2: So I just walked up and I was like, what's this?

1531
01:15:28,240 --> 01:15:28,479
Speaker 3: What's that?

1532
01:15:28,680 --> 01:15:31,759
Speaker 2: I don't know anything about this, And for whatever reason,

1533
01:15:32,000 --> 01:15:36,160
Speaker 2: we hit it off. He just loved telling me about

1534
01:15:36,200 --> 01:15:38,360
Speaker 2: all these butterflies, and nothing he had for sale on

1535
01:15:38,439 --> 01:15:41,080
Speaker 2: the table was illegal. It was all legal stuff. He

1536
01:15:41,200 --> 01:15:44,280
Speaker 2: wasn't that stupid, right, But one thing he did that

1537
01:15:44,400 --> 01:15:46,680
Speaker 2: was really weird. He I think he was trying to

1538
01:15:46,720 --> 01:15:49,400
Speaker 2: impress me. He pulled out from underneath the table, which

1539
01:15:49,439 --> 01:15:53,639
Speaker 2: is usually where the illegal stuff is, this live beetle

1540
01:15:53,960 --> 01:15:57,080
Speaker 2: and a little tupperware container. And this beetle is called

1541
01:15:57,080 --> 01:15:59,519
Speaker 2: a dynasty's beetle, and you'd know him if you saw him,

1542
01:15:59,520 --> 01:16:01,320
Speaker 2: because you probab probably only see him in a museum.

1543
01:16:01,520 --> 01:16:04,320
Speaker 2: They're huge, six inches long maybe, and they have a

1544
01:16:04,479 --> 01:16:09,240
Speaker 2: giant horn. Yeah, sometimes it called rhinoceros speedles, but they're just.

1545
01:16:09,439 --> 01:16:13,599
Speaker 1: Yeah, wasn't it, wasn't it? Doug Emlin, Yes, we interviewed

1546
01:16:13,640 --> 01:16:15,200
Speaker 1: a guy that works on those horn beetles.

1547
01:16:15,200 --> 01:16:15,880
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, cool.

1548
01:16:16,720 --> 01:16:18,680
Speaker 2: The horn actually looks like a job that worked in

1549
01:16:18,720 --> 01:16:19,080
Speaker 2: your way.

1550
01:16:19,160 --> 01:16:23,280
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I understand worked he works in a university way. Yeah.

1551
01:16:23,800 --> 01:16:26,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, And they looked like they'd be really ferocious, right,

1552
01:16:26,439 --> 01:16:29,479
Speaker 2: But anyway, it's alive. And I was like, oh, where'd

1553
01:16:29,520 --> 01:16:30,880
Speaker 2: that come from? And he goes, oh, I brought it

1554
01:16:31,040 --> 01:16:35,080
Speaker 2: up from South America. And the reason he shushed me

1555
01:16:35,240 --> 01:16:39,479
Speaker 2: is because generally it's a violation of USDA regulations to

1556
01:16:39,520 --> 01:16:42,320
Speaker 2: bring a live insect into the US, so that's not

1557
01:16:42,439 --> 01:16:45,519
Speaker 2: the crime of the century. But here he was admitting

1558
01:16:45,560 --> 01:16:49,080
Speaker 2: he'd done something illegal. So I thought that's good. But

1559
01:16:49,240 --> 01:16:50,960
Speaker 2: I didn't know where to take it next because I

1560
01:16:51,400 --> 01:16:52,880
Speaker 2: didn't really done undercover work.

1561
01:16:53,000 --> 01:16:56,680
Speaker 3: So the weird weird you're undercover. I'm just kind of impromptu.

1562
01:16:56,760 --> 01:16:59,960
Speaker 2: I'm just talking to him, making sure I identify him

1563
01:17:00,120 --> 01:17:02,680
Speaker 2: as Yoshi Kojima, just trying to do whatever I can, right.

1564
01:17:03,720 --> 01:17:05,519
Speaker 2: But the weirdest thing was at the end of the day,

1565
01:17:06,600 --> 01:17:09,920
Speaker 2: I'm just loitering in a group and I feel that

1566
01:17:09,960 --> 01:17:12,839
Speaker 2: somebody tapped my shoulder and I turned around and Seyoshi's

1567
01:17:12,840 --> 01:17:15,120
Speaker 2: standing there, and I actually kind of, you know, I

1568
01:17:15,240 --> 01:17:17,240
Speaker 2: kind of panicked a little bit because I'm like, we know,

1569
01:17:18,360 --> 01:17:21,519
Speaker 2: why are you here? And he had this box in

1570
01:17:21,600 --> 01:17:23,800
Speaker 2: his hand, and he said, here for your collection, to

1571
01:17:23,880 --> 01:17:26,599
Speaker 2: start your collection. And he gave me this cardboard box.

1572
01:17:26,680 --> 01:17:29,000
Speaker 2: I open it up, and it's full of just crappy,

1573
01:17:29,880 --> 01:17:34,559
Speaker 2: you know, butterflies, dinged up wings, moths, nothing, and uh.

1574
01:17:34,880 --> 01:17:38,519
Speaker 2: On the top he wrote his email address. And I

1575
01:17:38,600 --> 01:17:40,719
Speaker 2: went back and told my boss this, and she goes,

1576
01:17:41,120 --> 01:17:44,200
Speaker 2: this is the perfect situation right now.

1577
01:17:44,240 --> 01:17:46,880
Speaker 5: I don't want to spoil what I already know because

1578
01:17:46,880 --> 01:17:49,160
Speaker 5: I listened to the interview.

1579
01:17:50,160 --> 01:17:52,519
Speaker 3: She recorded that she didn't tell me she was recording

1580
01:17:52,560 --> 01:17:53,400
Speaker 3: that interview.

1581
01:17:54,360 --> 01:17:59,160
Speaker 5: With Lee Ane for NPR story Well, yeah, years ago. Yeah,

1582
01:17:59,479 --> 01:18:02,840
Speaker 5: because like now, looking back at that, you know, the

1583
01:18:02,960 --> 01:18:05,519
Speaker 5: reason that maybe you got a little preferential treatment.

1584
01:18:05,720 --> 01:18:06,720
Speaker 3: Maybe maybe now.

1585
01:18:07,040 --> 01:18:08,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't know if it existed then or not.

1586
01:18:09,479 --> 01:18:11,680
Speaker 2: I didn't get weird vibes from him then. But what

1587
01:18:11,800 --> 01:18:15,439
Speaker 2: you're getting to is later Kojima definitely had a crush

1588
01:18:15,479 --> 01:18:15,680
Speaker 2: on me.

1589
01:18:15,800 --> 01:18:18,360
Speaker 3: Later. I don't know if he did then. Maybe. You

1590
01:18:18,439 --> 01:18:19,040
Speaker 3: know what I was.

1591
01:18:20,040 --> 01:18:26,120
Speaker 1: I have a friend whose sister worked undercover narcotics, and

1592
01:18:26,240 --> 01:18:29,320
Speaker 1: she's was at the time in her late twenties, and

1593
01:18:29,479 --> 01:18:32,519
Speaker 1: I was asking her a million questions about her. She's

1594
01:18:32,640 --> 01:18:34,120
Speaker 1: she's out of it now. She did it for a

1595
01:18:34,160 --> 01:18:42,000
Speaker 1: long time, and she said, they always think there's going

1596
01:18:42,080 --> 01:18:46,760
Speaker 1: to be a relationship always interesting. Interesting if it's in

1597
01:18:46,880 --> 01:18:49,960
Speaker 1: the role she played. Yeah, the role she played, Yeah,

1598
01:18:50,400 --> 01:18:51,679
Speaker 1: it's and it's a young woman.

1599
01:18:52,479 --> 01:18:52,960
Speaker 3: It's hard.

1600
01:18:53,200 --> 01:18:54,640
Speaker 2: I mean, you know, I was telling you about my

1601
01:18:54,760 --> 01:18:57,760
Speaker 2: boss Marie. She did a lot of undercover work when

1602
01:18:57,800 --> 01:19:00,720
Speaker 2: she was younger. And it's it's a problem because the

1603
01:19:00,760 --> 01:19:03,840
Speaker 2: bad guys will hit on you. You know, you know

1604
01:19:04,000 --> 01:19:06,479
Speaker 2: you got to be obviously, you can't get in a

1605
01:19:06,560 --> 01:19:09,160
Speaker 2: relationship with an informant or a bad guy.

1606
01:19:09,280 --> 01:19:10,920
Speaker 3: That's just not cool.

1607
01:19:12,200 --> 01:19:13,840
Speaker 1: But I want to tell you something funny that she

1608
01:19:13,960 --> 01:19:17,920
Speaker 1: told me about it. I said her, she was like

1609
01:19:18,000 --> 01:19:20,479
Speaker 1: out of state drug buyer, right okay, So she would

1610
01:19:20,479 --> 01:19:23,479
Speaker 1: periodically show up in a town to buy right well,

1611
01:19:23,520 --> 01:19:25,519
Speaker 1: she lived in the town, her cover was that she

1612
01:19:25,600 --> 01:19:29,600
Speaker 1: lived elsewhere. It would travel to buy okay. And I said, well,

1613
01:19:29,600 --> 01:19:33,439
Speaker 1: how do you avoid Like, if some drug dealer wants

1614
01:19:33,560 --> 01:19:35,960
Speaker 1: you to go in this creepy ass house and you're undercover,

1615
01:19:36,080 --> 01:19:38,000
Speaker 1: how do you not go? She said, I would say,

1616
01:19:38,240 --> 01:19:40,120
Speaker 1: I'm not going into your creepy ass house.

1617
01:19:40,760 --> 01:19:44,719
Speaker 3: Exactly exactly, and I'm sure she would.

1618
01:19:45,000 --> 01:19:48,360
Speaker 2: She would tell you that there's a temptation to go in, right,

1619
01:19:48,880 --> 01:19:51,960
Speaker 2: Because as a law enforcement officer, how often do you

1620
01:19:52,000 --> 01:19:53,680
Speaker 2: get invited into the bad guy's house?

1621
01:19:53,760 --> 01:19:53,880
Speaker 1: Right?

1622
01:19:53,920 --> 01:19:56,200
Speaker 2: Normally you got to have a warrant, right, But if

1623
01:19:56,200 --> 01:19:57,960
Speaker 2: you're undercover and they invite you in, you don't need

1624
01:19:57,960 --> 01:19:58,360
Speaker 2: a warrant.

1625
01:19:59,120 --> 01:19:59,639
Speaker 1: You come out.

1626
01:19:59,800 --> 01:20:02,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, you get this free opportunity to look around. But

1627
01:20:02,840 --> 01:20:05,479
Speaker 2: it's super dangerous to do that, super dangerous. And then

1628
01:20:05,520 --> 01:20:08,320
Speaker 2: you know, it happened to me with Kojima invited me

1629
01:20:08,400 --> 01:20:10,120
Speaker 2: into his place and I had to make a call,

1630
01:20:10,880 --> 01:20:13,439
Speaker 2: And at the time it was a different story, but

1631
01:20:13,640 --> 01:20:15,840
Speaker 2: you know, I had a cover team behind me and

1632
01:20:15,880 --> 01:20:19,519
Speaker 2: they lost me in LA traffic and we pulled into

1633
01:20:19,600 --> 01:20:22,479
Speaker 2: Kojima's underground apartment, and in there I was like, well,

1634
01:20:22,840 --> 01:20:25,720
Speaker 2: my cover team's definitely not going to reacquire me now, right,

1635
01:20:27,120 --> 01:20:28,760
Speaker 2: And so I thought, well, I'll make a fake phone

1636
01:20:28,800 --> 01:20:31,000
Speaker 2: call to my cover team. I'll say, hey, Yoshi, yeah,

1637
01:20:31,040 --> 01:20:32,880
Speaker 2: we can go check out your place. But I got

1638
01:20:33,040 --> 01:20:35,440
Speaker 2: to make a call because I got to change disappointment

1639
01:20:36,120 --> 01:20:39,080
Speaker 2: and Murphy's law. I stepped out of the car and

1640
01:20:39,240 --> 01:20:42,920
Speaker 2: my undercover cell phone actually fell landed right on the

1641
01:20:42,960 --> 01:20:47,040
Speaker 2: antenna and broke into like three pieces. So now I

1642
01:20:47,080 --> 01:20:50,760
Speaker 2: have no way to contact anybody, and I got to

1643
01:20:50,760 --> 01:20:51,960
Speaker 2: make a call. Am I going to go into this

1644
01:20:52,040 --> 01:20:55,040
Speaker 2: apartment when nobody knows I'm there? Or am I gonna,

1645
01:20:55,520 --> 01:20:56,240
Speaker 2: you know, get out of this?

1646
01:20:56,840 --> 01:21:00,000
Speaker 5: Did you feel like this guy was could be physically damed?

1647
01:21:00,479 --> 01:21:02,960
Speaker 2: I was, you know, physically. I was never afraid of Kojima,

1648
01:21:03,320 --> 01:21:07,479
Speaker 2: Like he wasn't going to beat me up. But you know,

1649
01:21:08,240 --> 01:21:10,880
Speaker 2: I can't defeat a gun. If Kojima's got a gun,

1650
01:21:11,479 --> 01:21:13,200
Speaker 2: and I don't know who else is in his apartment

1651
01:21:14,040 --> 01:21:16,360
Speaker 2: and he's so paranoid about the fish and wild guys,

1652
01:21:16,520 --> 01:21:18,719
Speaker 2: you know, if he's got a friend or two friends

1653
01:21:18,760 --> 01:21:20,720
Speaker 2: in that apartment, They're going to beat the crap out

1654
01:21:20,760 --> 01:21:22,080
Speaker 2: of me till I tell him who I am.

1655
01:21:22,680 --> 01:21:23,120
Speaker 3: I can't.

1656
01:21:23,640 --> 01:21:26,439
Speaker 2: Once I'm in there, it's hard to extricate, right, So

1657
01:21:27,439 --> 01:21:29,840
Speaker 2: you'd never want to assume that this little guy is

1658
01:21:29,920 --> 01:21:32,240
Speaker 2: not going to hurt you, because anybody can hurt you

1659
01:21:32,360 --> 01:21:38,040
Speaker 2: with the right weapon, right. So anyway, I did it

1660
01:21:38,360 --> 01:21:40,360
Speaker 2: because I'm like, I got to see in this apartment.

1661
01:21:41,960 --> 01:21:43,640
Speaker 2: But I knew I had limited time because what my

1662
01:21:43,680 --> 01:21:45,280
Speaker 2: cover team is going to do, they're going to follow

1663
01:21:45,360 --> 01:21:48,519
Speaker 2: certain protocols to reacquire me, right and if they can't

1664
01:21:48,560 --> 01:21:51,200
Speaker 2: find me pretty soon, they're going to notify the LAPD

1665
01:21:51,360 --> 01:21:54,240
Speaker 2: that we have a missing undercover agent and that's going

1666
01:21:54,280 --> 01:21:56,479
Speaker 2: to cause helicopters and black and whites to be in

1667
01:21:56,560 --> 01:21:59,080
Speaker 2: the neighborhood. So I knew I had a limited amount

1668
01:21:59,080 --> 01:22:00,719
Speaker 2: of time to get in and out of that apartment,

1669
01:22:01,240 --> 01:22:04,000
Speaker 2: and it was fine. It worked out fine. I made

1670
01:22:04,040 --> 01:22:06,960
Speaker 2: sure I stayed closer to his front door than he did.

1671
01:22:07,080 --> 01:22:11,559
Speaker 2: But getting into that apartment was amazing because his whole

1672
01:22:11,600 --> 01:22:15,519
Speaker 2: apartment was filled with butterflies and these illegal beadles that

1673
01:22:15,600 --> 01:22:17,840
Speaker 2: he'd been bringing up from South America that he was

1674
01:22:17,960 --> 01:22:21,559
Speaker 2: selling claiming selling in Japan for ten thousand dollars apiece.

1675
01:22:22,479 --> 01:22:25,120
Speaker 2: I don't know whether that's true or not, but anyway

1676
01:22:25,439 --> 01:22:28,160
Speaker 2: it was. I got in and out of there in

1677
01:22:28,200 --> 01:22:30,680
Speaker 2: about ten minutes. And by the time this is I

1678
01:22:30,760 --> 01:22:32,639
Speaker 2: had no cell phone, so I raced to the local

1679
01:22:33,880 --> 01:22:36,320
Speaker 2: like seven to eleven, find one of the last remaining

1680
01:22:36,360 --> 01:22:39,479
Speaker 2: pay phones in the city of Los Angeles. Call the

1681
01:22:39,600 --> 01:22:42,400
Speaker 2: office and yeah, the covered team was getting ready to

1682
01:22:42,439 --> 01:22:43,240
Speaker 2: call the LAPD.

1683
01:22:43,400 --> 01:22:46,000
Speaker 3: We just just got checked back and just checked back in.

1684
01:22:46,160 --> 01:22:49,720
Speaker 5: Yeah, that was fun other than like seeing some evidence

1685
01:22:50,640 --> 01:22:54,519
Speaker 5: of what's going on there, Like I mean, did you

1686
01:22:54,640 --> 01:22:57,400
Speaker 5: have expectations of what his apartment is like? Like it

1687
01:22:57,479 --> 01:23:00,120
Speaker 5: was it like a super nice apartment. You're like, oh

1688
01:23:00,160 --> 01:23:02,519
Speaker 5: my god, this guy's crushing it in his field because

1689
01:23:02,880 --> 01:23:06,519
Speaker 5: look at this apartment or was it dingy and dirty and.

1690
01:23:07,080 --> 01:23:09,720
Speaker 2: Dingy and dirty? I mean this nice, nice place, right,

1691
01:23:09,920 --> 01:23:15,120
Speaker 2: nice building, but dark kept his curtains closed, just gross,

1692
01:23:15,400 --> 01:23:17,280
Speaker 2: like you know, they got a big wrap around couch,

1693
01:23:17,320 --> 01:23:19,799
Speaker 2: but there was only one place to sit and everything

1694
01:23:19,840 --> 01:23:24,000
Speaker 2: else was just stacked with butterflies or butterfly containers. The

1695
01:23:24,160 --> 01:23:27,560
Speaker 2: grossest thing was two gross things. Actually, one is I

1696
01:23:28,280 --> 01:23:31,120
Speaker 2: look down the hallway of the apartment from the living

1697
01:23:31,160 --> 01:23:33,600
Speaker 2: room and there was like a tea I assume it

1698
01:23:33,640 --> 01:23:35,280
Speaker 2: went to a bedroom on the right and a bedroom

1699
01:23:35,320 --> 01:23:36,920
Speaker 2: on the left, and then there was a bathroom and

1700
01:23:36,960 --> 01:23:39,200
Speaker 2: the door was open and I could actually see into

1701
01:23:39,280 --> 01:23:42,760
Speaker 2: the bathtub and there was this disgusting black ring all

1702
01:23:42,840 --> 01:23:43,519
Speaker 2: around the tub.

1703
01:23:43,640 --> 01:23:47,760
Speaker 3: It was like a silence of the lambs. Maybe or

1704
01:23:47,880 --> 01:23:49,600
Speaker 3: he didn't, I don't know.

1705
01:23:49,880 --> 01:23:53,240
Speaker 2: But the second gross thing was he very proudly goes

1706
01:23:53,280 --> 01:23:56,679
Speaker 2: to the kitchen and opens the cupboards to the above

1707
01:23:56,720 --> 01:23:59,400
Speaker 2: the sink. There's no food in the cupboards. It's all

1708
01:24:00,240 --> 01:24:03,160
Speaker 2: tupperware bins filled with these beetles.

1709
01:24:03,000 --> 01:24:04,240
Speaker 5: So it's more of a warehouse.

1710
01:24:04,400 --> 01:24:04,599
Speaker 3: Yeah.

1711
01:24:04,920 --> 01:24:07,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, he lived in Kyoto, but he had this apartment

1712
01:24:07,280 --> 01:24:09,400
Speaker 2: in la and it was just kind of his bass.

1713
01:24:09,880 --> 01:24:13,080
Speaker 2: He did ultimately admit to me that he did poach

1714
01:24:13,240 --> 01:24:16,200
Speaker 2: butterflies out of Grand Canyon and Death Valley, but what

1715
01:24:16,320 --> 01:24:18,960
Speaker 2: he was doing now, he didn't do as much poaching himself.

1716
01:24:19,040 --> 01:24:21,720
Speaker 2: He hired people to go and he eventually tried to

1717
01:24:21,800 --> 01:24:24,000
Speaker 2: recruit me to go out to Death Valley and collect

1718
01:24:24,600 --> 01:24:25,960
Speaker 2: collect butterflies for him.

1719
01:24:26,080 --> 01:24:26,280
Speaker 3: Yeah.

1720
01:24:26,640 --> 01:24:31,280
Speaker 1: Yeah, was he You take a guy like this, is

1721
01:24:31,360 --> 01:24:36,800
Speaker 1: he like, does he imagine himself as mostly legitimate but

1722
01:24:37,000 --> 01:24:41,280
Speaker 1: now and then I'll fudge the line or is he

1723
01:24:41,400 --> 01:24:42,400
Speaker 1: a career criminal?

1724
01:24:42,600 --> 01:24:43,320
Speaker 3: He was committed.

1725
01:24:43,720 --> 01:24:46,519
Speaker 2: He described himself to me as the world's most wanted

1726
01:24:46,560 --> 01:24:49,479
Speaker 2: butterfly smuggler. He took pride in the fact that fish

1727
01:24:49,520 --> 01:24:51,880
Speaker 2: and wildlife was after him, and he took pride in

1728
01:24:52,439 --> 01:24:55,439
Speaker 2: bragging that he outsmarted us, which as soon as I

1729
01:24:55,520 --> 01:24:58,360
Speaker 2: heard him say, you know, he outsmarted John Mendoza, I

1730
01:24:58,479 --> 01:25:01,840
Speaker 2: was like, no, you didn't. Number one, no you didn't.

1731
01:25:01,880 --> 01:25:04,640
Speaker 2: And number two, I'm gonna catch you. I'm putting you

1732
01:25:04,720 --> 01:25:05,080
Speaker 2: in jail.

1733
01:25:05,160 --> 01:25:05,400
Speaker 3: Dude.

1734
01:25:05,840 --> 01:25:08,519
Speaker 2: As that went through my mind when he said that,

1735
01:25:08,840 --> 01:25:10,960
Speaker 2: I was like, nope, I'm never quitting until I put

1736
01:25:11,040 --> 01:25:12,200
Speaker 2: Yoshiko gi men jail.

1737
01:25:12,560 --> 01:25:14,719
Speaker 1: How did you How does it go about the event?

1738
01:25:14,760 --> 01:25:16,760
Speaker 1: I mean, at some point you got to make an arrest.

1739
01:25:16,600 --> 01:25:17,040
Speaker 3: Right, Yeah.

1740
01:25:17,439 --> 01:25:20,519
Speaker 2: There were a few ups and downs with him. He

1741
01:25:21,160 --> 01:25:23,960
Speaker 2: was real touchy, and you know, it would take a

1742
01:25:24,040 --> 01:25:26,599
Speaker 2: long time to explain how that whole case transpired over

1743
01:25:26,680 --> 01:25:29,760
Speaker 2: three years, but suffice it to say there were two

1744
01:25:29,840 --> 01:25:32,719
Speaker 2: times during my relationship with him in an undercover capacity

1745
01:25:32,760 --> 01:25:35,760
Speaker 2: where he cut me off. He got mad at me,

1746
01:25:35,880 --> 01:25:38,639
Speaker 2: so he would stop talking to me. At one point

1747
01:25:40,080 --> 01:25:41,640
Speaker 2: what he wanted to do was he wanted to go

1748
01:25:41,720 --> 01:25:45,000
Speaker 2: into business with me and have me sell butterflies for

1749
01:25:45,120 --> 01:25:48,280
Speaker 2: him online that he would send me from Japan. And

1750
01:25:48,560 --> 01:25:52,160
Speaker 2: very clearly, obviously it doesn't take a rocket scientist to

1751
01:25:52,200 --> 01:25:54,360
Speaker 2: figure out what he wanted was a fall guy, right,

1752
01:25:54,800 --> 01:25:56,800
Speaker 2: So when the fish and wild guys came coming, he

1753
01:25:56,800 --> 01:25:59,840
Speaker 2: would feed them Ted Nelson, which was my undercover name.

1754
01:25:59,880 --> 01:26:04,439
Speaker 2: He feed him Ted, and he'd slink away and he'd

1755
01:26:04,520 --> 01:26:06,200
Speaker 2: hope fish and while iff would be happy because they

1756
01:26:06,280 --> 01:26:06,720
Speaker 2: caught Ted.

1757
01:26:06,960 --> 01:26:09,439
Speaker 3: Right. So I knew that was his plan going in.

1758
01:26:10,280 --> 01:26:14,040
Speaker 2: But at one point he wasn't sending me enough butterflies,

1759
01:26:14,640 --> 01:26:16,880
Speaker 2: like he wasn't sending me the endangered stuff. So I

1760
01:26:17,000 --> 01:26:20,200
Speaker 2: created this undercover eBay account where I looked like I

1761
01:26:20,400 --> 01:26:23,320
Speaker 2: was selling some stuff on this side, and what I

1762
01:26:23,439 --> 01:26:26,519
Speaker 2: hoped he would ask me. My plan was he would

1763
01:26:26,520 --> 01:26:29,200
Speaker 2: come back and say, hey, Ted, where are you getting these?

1764
01:26:29,479 --> 01:26:31,960
Speaker 2: And I'd say some baloney line like oh, I got

1765
01:26:32,000 --> 01:26:35,160
Speaker 2: a dealer, a supplier out of Germany and he's terrible.

1766
01:26:35,200 --> 01:26:38,559
Speaker 2: He sends me horrible material. And I hope that Kojima

1767
01:26:38,560 --> 01:26:40,760
Speaker 2: would then say, well, I can give you that, right,

1768
01:26:41,800 --> 01:26:44,240
Speaker 2: But instead he turned me into the local tip line

1769
01:26:44,240 --> 01:26:48,400
Speaker 2: for the California Department A fish you No, I got it.

1770
01:26:48,640 --> 01:26:51,560
Speaker 2: His game warden called me. His game warden called me

1771
01:26:51,640 --> 01:26:53,040
Speaker 2: one day and he goes, hey, Ed, I know you're

1772
01:26:53,040 --> 01:26:54,960
Speaker 2: doing a butterfly case. We got this weird tip on

1773
01:26:55,040 --> 01:26:58,680
Speaker 2: our tip line and some Japanese guy turning in some

1774
01:26:58,880 --> 01:27:01,559
Speaker 2: guy And I'm like, well to me, and I listened

1775
01:27:01,600 --> 01:27:03,880
Speaker 2: to it and it's like, yeah, turning in Ted Nelson

1776
01:27:03,920 --> 01:27:06,439
Speaker 2: for selling sidese material that he doesn't have permits for.

1777
01:27:06,840 --> 01:27:07,799
Speaker 1: You are kidding?

1778
01:27:08,040 --> 01:27:11,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, So at that point the case is done, right

1779
01:27:11,400 --> 01:27:14,559
Speaker 2: because because Kojima, I'm thinking I can't get him now

1780
01:27:14,640 --> 01:27:17,880
Speaker 2: because if I stay in the business, Kojima thinks he

1781
01:27:17,960 --> 01:27:21,599
Speaker 2: turned me in. If I if I stay in the business,

1782
01:27:21,880 --> 01:27:24,040
Speaker 2: he's gonna think I'm an informant. Yeah, I was gonna

1783
01:27:24,080 --> 01:27:27,439
Speaker 2: think I turned So I let it go and my

1784
01:27:27,560 --> 01:27:29,800
Speaker 2: boss Marie was like, oh, case it's done. You're never

1785
01:27:29,880 --> 01:27:32,479
Speaker 2: going to get this dude. So I really literally put

1786
01:27:32,520 --> 01:27:35,800
Speaker 2: it aside and I started working on high Roller. Yeah

1787
01:27:36,120 --> 01:27:38,080
Speaker 2: that's what a high roller came up. Like I said,

1788
01:27:38,080 --> 01:27:39,680
Speaker 2: I had nothing to do that day, right, So I

1789
01:27:39,760 --> 01:27:41,040
Speaker 2: went out and did that Hawk case.

1790
01:27:41,760 --> 01:27:44,080
Speaker 3: But about a.

1791
01:27:44,200 --> 01:27:46,920
Speaker 2: Year later, right in the middle of high roller. So

1792
01:27:47,000 --> 01:27:49,320
Speaker 2: I'm all right, Now I'm doing a different undercover case

1793
01:27:49,360 --> 01:27:52,519
Speaker 2: with a different persona where I play a much rougher

1794
01:27:53,000 --> 01:27:57,439
Speaker 2: guy than I was portraying with Kojima. I get a

1795
01:27:57,520 --> 01:28:00,320
Speaker 2: tip that Kojima is coming back to the fair. I'm like, oh,

1796
01:28:00,320 --> 01:28:01,439
Speaker 2: I'm gonna take one more shot.

1797
01:28:03,040 --> 01:28:04,880
Speaker 1: So by this time I have just a striped suit,

1798
01:28:05,000 --> 01:28:06,280
Speaker 1: so you're just out of jail.

1799
01:28:06,600 --> 01:28:07,519
Speaker 3: No, but I did have a.

1800
01:28:07,680 --> 01:28:11,080
Speaker 2: Giant handlebar mustache because I grew a big mustache to

1801
01:28:11,160 --> 01:28:14,080
Speaker 2: kind of fit in with the pigeon people better. And

1802
01:28:15,320 --> 01:28:17,639
Speaker 2: I go to the fair and my plan is I'm

1803
01:28:17,640 --> 01:28:21,799
Speaker 2: gonna find him, and I'm gonna accidentally in quotes air quotes,

1804
01:28:21,880 --> 01:28:24,280
Speaker 2: run into him, and I'm gonna see what happens.

1805
01:28:25,120 --> 01:28:26,439
Speaker 3: So I go to the fair.

1806
01:28:26,720 --> 01:28:29,040
Speaker 2: I find him. He's in this big hall doing his

1807
01:28:29,200 --> 01:28:31,080
Speaker 2: usual thing. He's got his fanny pack in the front

1808
01:28:31,120 --> 01:28:33,720
Speaker 2: where he usually carried about ten thousand dollars cash in

1809
01:28:33,800 --> 01:28:35,519
Speaker 2: his fanny pack. I don't know how this guy never

1810
01:28:35,560 --> 01:28:40,000
Speaker 2: got robbed walking around La, but whatever. So I wait

1811
01:28:40,120 --> 01:28:42,280
Speaker 2: till he's moving from one hall to the other where

1812
01:28:42,280 --> 01:28:44,800
Speaker 2: you got to go through like this narrow walkway and

1813
01:28:44,920 --> 01:28:47,760
Speaker 2: I come the other direction, and he looked like he

1814
01:28:48,160 --> 01:28:50,080
Speaker 2: looked scared out of his wits.

1815
01:28:49,840 --> 01:28:50,400
Speaker 3: When he saw me.

1816
01:28:51,320 --> 01:28:53,719
Speaker 2: But I immediately went out and said, hey, Yo, she's

1817
01:28:53,760 --> 01:28:57,080
Speaker 2: so good to see you. And in the conversation, I

1818
01:28:57,600 --> 01:29:01,160
Speaker 2: very quickly let out that I owe him a huge debt,

1819
01:29:01,960 --> 01:29:04,120
Speaker 2: and that caught his interest. And I said, because of

1820
01:29:04,160 --> 01:29:06,479
Speaker 2: the advice you gave me about how you handled the

1821
01:29:06,520 --> 01:29:10,559
Speaker 2: fish and wild guys, I didn't get arrested. I said,

1822
01:29:10,720 --> 01:29:13,479
Speaker 2: I said, some asshole turned me in to fish and

1823
01:29:13,560 --> 01:29:16,840
Speaker 2: game and they came to my house. They did a

1824
01:29:16,880 --> 01:29:19,280
Speaker 2: search warrant, but because of the advice you gave me,

1825
01:29:19,520 --> 01:29:23,080
Speaker 2: I had everything hidden somewhere else. They never found a thing.

1826
01:29:23,280 --> 01:29:26,639
Speaker 2: They couldn't prove anything. And thanks to you, Yoshi, I'm

1827
01:29:26,680 --> 01:29:27,240
Speaker 2: not in jail.

1828
01:29:28,000 --> 01:29:32,000
Speaker 5: Is this what they call a double cross in parentsiaw.

1829
01:29:31,920 --> 01:29:34,639
Speaker 3: He bought the whole thing, man, he bought it hook.

1830
01:29:34,479 --> 01:29:36,400
Speaker 6: Line and center, excellent material.

1831
01:29:37,840 --> 01:29:40,760
Speaker 3: So he takes me to lunch and at that.

1832
01:29:43,160 --> 01:29:46,160
Speaker 1: And at that moment, he liked that handlebar mustard that

1833
01:29:46,640 --> 01:29:46,960
Speaker 1: he did.

1834
01:29:47,040 --> 01:29:49,080
Speaker 2: It turned out to people. I think he did like

1835
01:29:49,120 --> 01:29:50,320
Speaker 2: the handlebar mustache.

1836
01:29:50,439 --> 01:29:51,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, but he.

1837
01:29:53,439 --> 01:29:56,639
Speaker 2: He takes me to lunch, at this awful Korean restaurant

1838
01:29:56,800 --> 01:30:00,120
Speaker 2: in you know, Koreatown in LA I'm not sure we

1839
01:30:00,240 --> 01:30:02,760
Speaker 2: had beef. I'm not sure what the meat was in

1840
01:30:02,840 --> 01:30:03,160
Speaker 2: that year.

1841
01:30:03,160 --> 01:30:05,280
Speaker 4: You're like, man, I might need to investigate this place.

1842
01:30:06,840 --> 01:30:11,120
Speaker 2: I'm telling you it was not good. But he was

1843
01:30:11,280 --> 01:30:13,320
Speaker 2: so convinced at that point that I was also a

1844
01:30:13,400 --> 01:30:15,680
Speaker 2: bad guy. And now I gave him the line I

1845
01:30:16,080 --> 01:30:18,519
Speaker 2: initially planned to. He said, are you where are you

1846
01:30:18,560 --> 01:30:21,679
Speaker 2: getting your material? And I said, I got a German supplier,

1847
01:30:21,720 --> 01:30:25,640
Speaker 2: but he gives me crap and boom. He immediately said, oh,

1848
01:30:25,800 --> 01:30:29,720
Speaker 2: I can give you the material perfect condition, And right

1849
01:30:29,800 --> 01:30:32,800
Speaker 2: then I knew I had him, because he said, look,

1850
01:30:32,800 --> 01:30:35,599
Speaker 2: I'm going to go back to Japan. Get on Skype.

1851
01:30:35,680 --> 01:30:39,360
Speaker 2: We'll start talking my Skype in early two thousands, right,

1852
01:30:40,040 --> 01:30:42,720
Speaker 2: and I'll show you. Yeah, what happened to Skype. I

1853
01:30:42,800 --> 01:30:44,479
Speaker 2: was just thinking about that as I was coming here

1854
01:30:44,560 --> 01:30:48,840
Speaker 2: to Zoom Zoom Zoom killed Skype. So he says, we'll

1855
01:30:48,840 --> 01:30:51,040
Speaker 2: talk by Skype. I'll show you what I've got. You

1856
01:30:51,200 --> 01:30:53,400
Speaker 2: tell me what you want, pay me, I'll send it

1857
01:30:53,479 --> 01:30:55,160
Speaker 2: to you. And I was like, this is perfect, right,

1858
01:30:55,200 --> 01:30:58,040
Speaker 2: I'm going to I'm going to record him on camera

1859
01:30:58,760 --> 01:31:02,720
Speaker 2: making incriminals statements. And that's exactly how it played out.

1860
01:31:02,880 --> 01:31:05,320
Speaker 2: The only thing that was weird is after we were

1861
01:31:05,320 --> 01:31:07,680
Speaker 2: at lunch, he wanted me to drive him to a

1862
01:31:09,520 --> 01:31:12,160
Speaker 2: like a I don't know what you call it, asauna

1863
01:31:12,439 --> 01:31:13,200
Speaker 2: in Koreatown.

1864
01:31:13,320 --> 01:31:17,200
Speaker 1: Sure, and the whole Yeah, Chris is gonna do this

1865
01:31:17,400 --> 01:31:20,679
Speaker 1: this scene sight crin for a TV show.

1866
01:31:20,880 --> 01:31:24,000
Speaker 3: This is that I can't remember.

1867
01:31:24,439 --> 01:31:27,519
Speaker 2: He did take me later, like later that weekend, he

1868
01:31:27,600 --> 01:31:30,240
Speaker 2: took me to dinner at Lowry Steakhouse, which is pretty

1869
01:31:30,320 --> 01:31:31,519
Speaker 2: nice because he bought the whole thing.

1870
01:31:31,720 --> 01:31:33,960
Speaker 1: Because she's already picturing the network standers not enough sex.

1871
01:31:34,080 --> 01:31:37,519
Speaker 1: Krin's like, but wait, but wait, we got a scene.

1872
01:31:37,600 --> 01:31:39,320
Speaker 6: There's spice it up a little bit.

1873
01:31:40,200 --> 01:31:42,640
Speaker 2: So the whole way to this bathhouse, I'm driving him

1874
01:31:42,680 --> 01:31:48,000
Speaker 2: there and he, you know, he's asking me. He starts

1875
01:31:48,040 --> 01:31:50,920
Speaker 2: asking me, who, what actors do you like? And I

1876
01:31:51,000 --> 01:31:53,040
Speaker 2: didn't know, so I just said, I just started saying,

1877
01:31:54,400 --> 01:31:54,680
Speaker 2: I do.

1878
01:31:55,400 --> 01:31:58,280
Speaker 1: A big time man. I'm not hitting it either.

1879
01:32:01,080 --> 01:32:02,320
Speaker 5: Wait till I get my mustache.

1880
01:32:02,360 --> 01:32:04,840
Speaker 3: I'll grow my mustache back. I'll be irresistible to you.

1881
01:32:05,920 --> 01:32:08,600
Speaker 2: Uh So, Anyway, on the way there, he starts he

1882
01:32:08,680 --> 01:32:11,240
Speaker 2: asked what actors do you like, and I just named somebody,

1883
01:32:11,320 --> 01:32:13,320
Speaker 2: right whatever, Brad Pitt, and he goes, oh, he's gay.

1884
01:32:14,240 --> 01:32:17,040
Speaker 2: I'm like, oh, Brad Pitt's gay, okay, And I'd say

1885
01:32:17,160 --> 01:32:19,559
Speaker 2: who else He'd say who else? Oh, Tom Cruise, Oh

1886
01:32:19,720 --> 01:32:24,280
Speaker 2: so gay? Everybody I named was gay? It was And

1887
01:32:24,400 --> 01:32:26,600
Speaker 2: I was like, I didn't really understand what was going on,

1888
01:32:26,720 --> 01:32:29,240
Speaker 2: and You're like, jeez, I must be gay. Well, I

1889
01:32:29,560 --> 01:32:32,280
Speaker 2: think he was trying to hint this is now He's

1890
01:32:32,360 --> 01:32:35,240
Speaker 2: like trying to hint that he's either by or gay.

1891
01:32:35,840 --> 01:32:37,840
Speaker 2: And it kind of played out after that when we

1892
01:32:38,280 --> 01:32:40,720
Speaker 2: when we started to talk on Skype, we started to

1893
01:32:40,840 --> 01:32:43,120
Speaker 2: do a lot of deals with butterflies. He starts sending

1894
01:32:43,240 --> 01:32:46,560
Speaker 2: endangered stuff, like he would send stuff to me that

1895
01:32:46,880 --> 01:32:49,320
Speaker 2: I would then let take to the University of California

1896
01:32:49,479 --> 01:32:51,240
Speaker 2: or Riverside to make sure.

1897
01:32:51,280 --> 01:32:52,360
Speaker 3: I had it ideed right.

1898
01:32:52,560 --> 01:32:55,000
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, so they have a big entomology department, so

1899
01:32:55,040 --> 01:32:56,920
Speaker 2: I'd get it and I'd immediately drive out there and

1900
01:32:57,000 --> 01:32:58,559
Speaker 2: have them look at it, and they'd.

1901
01:32:58,360 --> 01:32:59,800
Speaker 3: Be like, where did you get this?

1902
01:33:00,840 --> 01:33:04,439
Speaker 2: We can long story, Yeah, I mean this is a

1903
01:33:05,560 --> 01:33:10,320
Speaker 2: you know, internationally known entomology university, and they're like, we

1904
01:33:10,439 --> 01:33:13,759
Speaker 2: cannot get this for research. We can't even these don't exist,

1905
01:33:14,240 --> 01:33:18,120
Speaker 2: and you're you're getting them in the mail. So Kojima

1906
01:33:18,240 --> 01:33:21,680
Speaker 2: had a very very sophisticated network round shit, he had

1907
01:33:21,720 --> 01:33:22,519
Speaker 2: the good shob Where.

1908
01:33:22,320 --> 01:33:22,880
Speaker 1: Are you getting the.

1909
01:33:24,520 --> 01:33:24,880
Speaker 3: The money?

1910
01:33:25,120 --> 01:33:26,880
Speaker 1: Yeah? Like how do they how do they as you're

1911
01:33:26,880 --> 01:33:29,200
Speaker 1: getting the money? How are they sort of confident enough

1912
01:33:29,200 --> 01:33:30,720
Speaker 1: that they're gonna wind up getting the money back?

1913
01:33:31,080 --> 01:33:34,400
Speaker 2: Sometimes you you don't know really, Sometimes you do spend

1914
01:33:34,520 --> 01:33:37,200
Speaker 2: money in an undercover situation and you do get ripped off,

1915
01:33:37,400 --> 01:33:38,439
Speaker 2: and that just happened.

1916
01:33:38,479 --> 01:33:40,640
Speaker 1: But you have to live under a sort of price cap, right,

1917
01:33:40,720 --> 01:33:42,719
Speaker 1: Like you couldn't go and say I need ten million

1918
01:33:42,720 --> 01:33:44,120
Speaker 1: dollars to buy a butterfly, right.

1919
01:33:44,160 --> 01:33:46,160
Speaker 2: They're gonna be like no, no, no, you know. Yeah,

1920
01:33:46,240 --> 01:33:48,639
Speaker 2: So you usually ask for more than what you need.

1921
01:33:49,439 --> 01:33:51,519
Speaker 2: So I can't remember how much I had to start with.

1922
01:33:51,800 --> 01:33:53,880
Speaker 2: Is like maybe thirty grand or something like a little

1923
01:33:53,920 --> 01:33:57,040
Speaker 2: con Man budget, yeah exactly. So what you're doing is

1924
01:33:57,320 --> 01:34:01,240
Speaker 2: you're to avoid and trap I think people you don't

1925
01:34:01,320 --> 01:34:04,519
Speaker 2: want it. You can't trap people, right, so you got

1926
01:34:04,600 --> 01:34:07,720
Speaker 2: to offer reasonable rates for these things. You can't, and

1927
01:34:08,080 --> 01:34:10,679
Speaker 2: so you take the risks that they might walk away

1928
01:34:10,680 --> 01:34:12,240
Speaker 2: from you, or they might steal your money. That's just

1929
01:34:12,320 --> 01:34:14,200
Speaker 2: part of the part of the risk, got it. Yeah,

1930
01:34:14,880 --> 01:34:17,360
Speaker 2: but he didn't. He wanted the money and he provided

1931
01:34:17,400 --> 01:34:20,280
Speaker 2: the stuff. But as we were talking, it became clear

1932
01:34:20,360 --> 01:34:24,400
Speaker 2: that he had a thing for me, and yeah, that's

1933
01:34:24,439 --> 01:34:27,519
Speaker 2: fine whatever. It just became really awkward when you're on

1934
01:34:27,600 --> 01:34:29,560
Speaker 2: a skype call with somebody and they want you to

1935
01:34:29,600 --> 01:34:30,920
Speaker 2: take your shirt off and stuff like that.

1936
01:34:31,000 --> 01:34:31,960
Speaker 3: It was very uncomfortable.

1937
01:34:32,000 --> 01:34:33,639
Speaker 1: I'd have had butterfly tattoos over.

1938
01:34:33,840 --> 01:34:37,000
Speaker 6: Yeah, that's the real entrapment there.

1939
01:34:37,800 --> 01:34:37,920
Speaker 1: You know.

1940
01:34:38,000 --> 01:34:39,840
Speaker 2: What was the worst part is at the time I

1941
01:34:40,000 --> 01:34:43,120
Speaker 2: was married, and you know, we would have a lot

1942
01:34:43,160 --> 01:34:46,280
Speaker 2: of these calls at when it was convenient for him,

1943
01:34:46,640 --> 01:34:48,559
Speaker 2: because one of the things that really made him mad

1944
01:34:48,760 --> 01:34:50,800
Speaker 2: is if you were not available when he wanted to talk.

1945
01:34:51,400 --> 01:34:54,679
Speaker 2: So he's in Japan, you know whatever, twelve hours ahead,

1946
01:34:54,720 --> 01:34:57,760
Speaker 2: thirteen hours. Yeah, he's winding down for the night. Yeah,

1947
01:34:57,840 --> 01:35:00,280
Speaker 2: and I'm winding down for the night. He wants to talk,

1948
01:35:00,439 --> 01:35:03,040
Speaker 2: Like what time zone is wrong? Yeah, twelve one o'clock

1949
01:35:03,040 --> 01:35:05,720
Speaker 2: in the morning. I'm on skype and my wife has

1950
01:35:05,760 --> 01:35:08,880
Speaker 2: to be extremely quiet. She cannot come into that room,

1951
01:35:09,240 --> 01:35:11,840
Speaker 2: she cannot make any noise because he'd be very alert

1952
01:35:11,920 --> 01:35:14,000
Speaker 2: to I thought you lived alone. I thought you were

1953
01:35:14,040 --> 01:35:17,240
Speaker 2: singing right now. Yeah, So that was that was stressful

1954
01:35:17,240 --> 01:35:19,240
Speaker 2: because he wanted to talk almost every night for a

1955
01:35:19,320 --> 01:35:22,200
Speaker 2: couple of months. It was pretty rough, but I ended up.

1956
01:35:22,320 --> 01:35:24,960
Speaker 2: You know, back then, we didn't you couldn't. I didn't

1957
01:35:24,960 --> 01:35:28,280
Speaker 2: have a fast enough computer to record screen on the screen,

1958
01:35:28,439 --> 01:35:30,280
Speaker 2: so I just had a video camera set up to

1959
01:35:30,360 --> 01:35:33,240
Speaker 2: the side that he couldn't see, and I'd just record

1960
01:35:34,080 --> 01:35:36,280
Speaker 2: him and me on the call. And man, I got

1961
01:35:36,320 --> 01:35:40,519
Speaker 2: some incredible, incriminating statements just about how much material he had,

1962
01:35:40,640 --> 01:35:44,679
Speaker 2: how much, how he would get his species, which species

1963
01:35:44,720 --> 01:35:48,800
Speaker 2: he could get. I remember once I expressed some interest

1964
01:35:48,840 --> 01:35:52,120
Speaker 2: in an endangered butterfly out of the Caribbean, and he said, well,

1965
01:35:52,160 --> 01:35:53,640
Speaker 2: it'll take me a couple of weeks, but I can

1966
01:35:53,720 --> 01:35:53,960
Speaker 2: get you.

1967
01:35:54,040 --> 01:35:56,080
Speaker 1: One name one of these butterflies for me.

1968
01:35:56,400 --> 01:35:59,080
Speaker 2: Well, the big one that the final one that I got,

1969
01:35:59,400 --> 01:36:02,840
Speaker 2: was the Queen Alexandria butterfly. It's the largest butterfly in

1970
01:36:02,880 --> 01:36:04,840
Speaker 2: the world. And you're pull one up and let's see

1971
01:36:04,920 --> 01:36:07,679
Speaker 2: what it looks. They're about the females about the size

1972
01:36:07,720 --> 01:36:11,439
Speaker 2: of a small dinner plate, maybe ten ten eleven inches across,

1973
01:36:12,280 --> 01:36:15,120
Speaker 2: and the male. The males are generally colorful, but they're smaller.

1974
01:36:15,520 --> 01:36:20,280
Speaker 6: You can click around there someone's head next to it

1975
01:36:20,520 --> 01:36:21,400
Speaker 6: for comparison.

1976
01:36:21,520 --> 01:36:21,920
Speaker 1: It's like that.

1977
01:36:23,160 --> 01:36:23,720
Speaker 3: Yeah, they're big.

1978
01:36:24,040 --> 01:36:28,760
Speaker 6: Yeah with these with.

1979
01:36:28,840 --> 01:36:31,519
Speaker 4: These cases like the butterfly one, I'm sure a lot

1980
01:36:31,600 --> 01:36:35,360
Speaker 4: of other ones. Were you in a position where you

1981
01:36:35,439 --> 01:36:39,280
Speaker 4: were having to work with another country's law enforcement?

1982
01:36:40,439 --> 01:36:40,559
Speaker 6: Uh?

1983
01:36:41,360 --> 01:36:43,080
Speaker 3: Yeah, I worked a little.

1984
01:36:43,160 --> 01:36:46,080
Speaker 4: Did Japan get involved with the butterfly thing at all?

1985
01:36:46,320 --> 01:36:46,360
Speaker 1: Or?

1986
01:36:47,080 --> 01:36:49,320
Speaker 3: Interesting? Interesting question because.

1987
01:36:50,760 --> 01:36:52,759
Speaker 2: Later we tried to get some help out of Japan

1988
01:36:53,160 --> 01:36:56,679
Speaker 2: and I went through the Homeland Security law enforcement attes

1989
01:36:57,000 --> 01:37:00,479
Speaker 2: based in Tokyo, and we did not get We got

1990
01:37:00,640 --> 01:37:01,920
Speaker 2: minimal cooperation for him.

1991
01:37:01,920 --> 01:37:05,240
Speaker 4: That's what like, does cha like when you're dealing with

1992
01:37:05,320 --> 01:37:08,559
Speaker 4: something like that's ending up in China coming out of China?

1993
01:37:08,840 --> 01:37:11,400
Speaker 4: Like is there any kind of cooperation.

1994
01:37:11,040 --> 01:37:11,839
Speaker 3: Or it depends?

1995
01:37:12,040 --> 01:37:15,360
Speaker 2: Sometimes it's great, Yeah, sometimes China is actually really good.

1996
01:37:16,000 --> 01:37:19,000
Speaker 2: Just kind of depends on the species who's involved. The

1997
01:37:19,160 --> 01:37:23,759
Speaker 2: interesting thing with the Japanese government is, and the Homeland

1998
01:37:23,760 --> 01:37:27,840
Speaker 2: Security at told me this, they consider undercover work to

1999
01:37:27,880 --> 01:37:31,280
Speaker 2: be dishonorable. So when they heard that it was an

2000
01:37:31,400 --> 01:37:34,479
Speaker 2: undercover agent who had, you know, basically built a case

2001
01:37:34,520 --> 01:37:39,040
Speaker 2: against a Japanese citizen. They weren't that interested. No kidding, no,

2002
01:37:39,880 --> 01:37:42,080
Speaker 2: which is it didn't matter. We had everything we needed

2003
01:37:42,640 --> 01:37:47,240
Speaker 2: on Kojima. But yeah, eventually he I owed him some

2004
01:37:47,360 --> 01:37:50,439
Speaker 2: money and he made some flirtatious statements to him, and

2005
01:37:50,520 --> 01:37:53,920
Speaker 2: I basically kind of hinted that things might heat up

2006
01:37:53,960 --> 01:37:55,800
Speaker 2: if he came back to LA because he was I

2007
01:37:55,880 --> 01:37:57,080
Speaker 2: had an arrest warrant for him.

2008
01:37:57,080 --> 01:37:59,439
Speaker 3: We just needed to get him. And then he came

2009
01:37:59,560 --> 01:38:01,200
Speaker 3: and he hooked him up at the airport.

2010
01:38:01,960 --> 01:38:03,719
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's fun were you present?

2011
01:38:04,040 --> 01:38:06,639
Speaker 2: I was there, but we wanted to kind of see

2012
01:38:06,640 --> 01:38:09,280
Speaker 2: what he said after he was arrested, so I wasn't

2013
01:38:09,320 --> 01:38:11,120
Speaker 2: part of that. I didn't see him till the next day.

2014
01:38:11,400 --> 01:38:12,599
Speaker 1: But you interacted with him.

2015
01:38:12,840 --> 01:38:15,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, because when you arrest somebody in the federal system,

2016
01:38:15,439 --> 01:38:17,800
Speaker 2: you move him. You take him into the jail for

2017
01:38:17,920 --> 01:38:20,160
Speaker 2: the evening, and then the next day you're responsible for

2018
01:38:20,280 --> 01:38:22,280
Speaker 2: moving him to the court. So I had to go

2019
01:38:22,360 --> 01:38:24,240
Speaker 2: pick him up at the jail and move him.

2020
01:38:24,080 --> 01:38:25,360
Speaker 3: Over to the district court.

2021
01:38:25,479 --> 01:38:26,519
Speaker 1: How's that conversation go?

2022
01:38:26,800 --> 01:38:27,040
Speaker 6: It was?

2023
01:38:27,200 --> 01:38:27,759
Speaker 3: It was funny.

2024
01:38:27,880 --> 01:38:30,439
Speaker 2: He looked he's excited to see me when I first

2025
01:38:30,520 --> 01:38:32,880
Speaker 2: walked in. Then he saw my belt, badge, and he

2026
01:38:32,960 --> 01:38:35,160
Speaker 2: saw I was wearing a holster and I had handcuffs.

2027
01:38:35,400 --> 01:38:36,920
Speaker 1: He's excited to see, like he thought you were in

2028
01:38:37,000 --> 01:38:37,439
Speaker 1: trouble too.

2029
01:38:37,720 --> 01:38:39,080
Speaker 2: No, I think he thought I was there to bail

2030
01:38:39,160 --> 01:38:41,200
Speaker 2: him out. Pretty sure he thought I was there to.

2031
01:38:41,160 --> 01:38:41,640
Speaker 3: Get him out.

2032
01:38:42,400 --> 01:38:43,679
Speaker 4: Was he an American citizen?

2033
01:38:44,320 --> 01:38:46,400
Speaker 3: No Japanese citizen?

2034
01:38:46,520 --> 01:38:47,280
Speaker 1: But he.

2035
01:38:49,640 --> 01:38:52,920
Speaker 2: He claimed he was very good at weaving lives, So

2036
01:38:53,120 --> 01:38:56,759
Speaker 2: he made up a whole American life where he claimed

2037
01:38:56,800 --> 01:39:00,240
Speaker 2: to have a wife and a half Japanese half you know,

2038
01:39:00,320 --> 01:39:03,960
Speaker 2: Anglo kid. And so he claimed he had a passport,

2039
01:39:04,160 --> 01:39:06,320
Speaker 2: an American passport, but he would never tell me what

2040
01:39:06,520 --> 01:39:09,760
Speaker 2: name the American passport was in. So I didn't think

2041
01:39:09,840 --> 01:39:12,320
Speaker 2: he was telling the truth. But we didn't know for

2042
01:39:12,439 --> 01:39:16,160
Speaker 2: sure if he had an American passport, and he was

2043
01:39:16,240 --> 01:39:19,599
Speaker 2: pretty tricky. He would he would tell people. He would

2044
01:39:19,640 --> 01:39:23,200
Speaker 2: tell if he knew all of us. He might tell you, hey,

2045
01:39:23,280 --> 01:39:26,160
Speaker 2: I'm in Grand Canyon, but he really was in Japan, right,

2046
01:39:26,840 --> 01:39:29,040
Speaker 2: He might tell you I'm in Utah next week.

2047
01:39:29,600 --> 01:39:32,799
Speaker 3: And so what you would hear. The buzz you would.

2048
01:39:32,640 --> 01:39:35,600
Speaker 2: Hear among the insect trading community was very confusing and

2049
01:39:35,680 --> 01:39:37,040
Speaker 2: conflicting about where he was.

2050
01:39:37,320 --> 01:39:40,080
Speaker 1: He's tricky. How's I always tell sons of bitches right

2051
01:39:40,120 --> 01:39:43,080
Speaker 1: where I'm at? How's that doing that? Man?

2052
01:39:43,360 --> 01:39:45,600
Speaker 4: How does that work in cases where you're dealing with

2053
01:39:47,400 --> 01:39:50,360
Speaker 4: like your target is not an American citizen as far

2054
01:39:50,439 --> 01:39:53,560
Speaker 4: as like sentencing and getting them in jail, and like

2055
01:39:53,880 --> 01:39:55,080
Speaker 4: what ends up happening.

2056
01:39:55,600 --> 01:39:55,760
Speaker 3: Yeah.

2057
01:39:55,800 --> 01:39:58,240
Speaker 2: I actually did a lot of cases against foreign nationals

2058
01:39:58,360 --> 01:40:00,880
Speaker 2: and I was involved in extra diditing a number of

2059
01:40:00,920 --> 01:40:05,280
Speaker 2: those people. And it's a long, very complicated process, but

2060
01:40:05,360 --> 01:40:07,960
Speaker 2: it is possible to you know, extradite people back here

2061
01:40:08,000 --> 01:40:11,160
Speaker 2: to the United States, whether they're Americans or foreign nationals,

2062
01:40:11,680 --> 01:40:14,479
Speaker 2: and I did that in a number of cases. The

2063
01:40:15,680 --> 01:40:19,360
Speaker 2: way it should work out is a foreign national should

2064
01:40:19,439 --> 01:40:24,200
Speaker 2: not get bail, right. Unfortunately, sometimes they do, and I've

2065
01:40:24,280 --> 01:40:30,160
Speaker 2: seen foreign nationals flee. Yeah, and that's really frustrating when

2066
01:40:30,200 --> 01:40:32,479
Speaker 2: you're the case agent because now, thanks to a judge

2067
01:40:32,479 --> 01:40:34,599
Speaker 2: who stupidly gave this guy bail, and now you've got

2068
01:40:34,680 --> 01:40:37,679
Speaker 2: to spend possibly years trying to hunt this guy down

2069
01:40:38,080 --> 01:40:39,080
Speaker 2: and then get him back.

2070
01:40:39,240 --> 01:40:39,360
Speaker 3: Right.

2071
01:40:40,880 --> 01:40:44,479
Speaker 2: But generally, a foreign national who commits a crime in

2072
01:40:44,560 --> 01:40:47,880
Speaker 2: the US or where there's US jurisdiction can be sentenced here,

2073
01:40:47,960 --> 01:40:51,360
Speaker 2: no problem. You get him back here they go through

2074
01:40:51,400 --> 01:40:53,360
Speaker 2: their trial if they want one, or they plead guilty

2075
01:40:53,400 --> 01:40:56,519
Speaker 2: and they're sentenced. The thing that's most interesting about foreign

2076
01:40:56,600 --> 01:40:59,200
Speaker 2: national though, is if you're convicted of a felony in

2077
01:40:59,280 --> 01:41:04,439
Speaker 2: the US and you don't have US legal residents, you're

2078
01:41:04,479 --> 01:41:08,680
Speaker 2: immediately deported after you finish your sentence and you cannot return.

2079
01:41:08,439 --> 01:41:08,920
Speaker 1: To the US.

2080
01:41:09,560 --> 01:41:11,880
Speaker 2: So that's actually a big deal. A lot of people

2081
01:41:12,000 --> 01:41:14,720
Speaker 2: want to come to the US. They want to, you know,

2082
01:41:15,439 --> 01:41:17,840
Speaker 2: take advantage of our banking, our business. They want to

2083
01:41:17,840 --> 01:41:19,560
Speaker 2: go on vacation here, they want their kids to go

2084
01:41:19,880 --> 01:41:23,360
Speaker 2: college here. And once you're convicted of a felony and

2085
01:41:23,400 --> 01:41:25,639
Speaker 2: you get out of jail, you know. Kojima got out

2086
01:41:25,680 --> 01:41:28,760
Speaker 2: of jail and was immediately turned over to Immigration and

2087
01:41:28,800 --> 01:41:31,519
Speaker 2: Customs enforcement. They drove him to lax They watched him

2088
01:41:31,600 --> 01:41:33,960
Speaker 2: get on a plane and boop. He went back to

2089
01:41:34,120 --> 01:41:36,360
Speaker 2: Japan and is not allowed to return to the US.

2090
01:41:36,439 --> 01:41:37,960
Speaker 1: Ever. Was he then arrested in Japan?

2091
01:41:38,439 --> 01:41:39,600
Speaker 3: I don't know. I doubt it.

2092
01:41:39,960 --> 01:41:43,439
Speaker 1: I doubt it. But would you send a file case

2093
01:41:43,520 --> 01:41:45,280
Speaker 1: like that to them to say, hey, heads.

2094
01:41:45,080 --> 01:41:48,160
Speaker 2: Up, yeah, I've done that before, I've shared information with

2095
01:41:48,720 --> 01:41:49,320
Speaker 2: South Africa.

2096
01:41:49,439 --> 01:41:50,840
Speaker 1: They just might not give a shit I might not

2097
01:41:50,960 --> 01:41:51,360
Speaker 1: have time.

2098
01:41:51,600 --> 01:41:54,439
Speaker 2: Sometimes they do, sometimes they don't. Yeah, it's their business,

2099
01:41:54,600 --> 01:41:57,280
Speaker 2: you know, if they do or don't. I've worked real

2100
01:41:57,320 --> 01:42:00,400
Speaker 2: closely with Germany on some cases. Actually a case involving

2101
01:42:00,560 --> 01:42:03,400
Speaker 2: remember when Justin Bieber got drusted for the monkey. Yeah,

2102
01:42:04,800 --> 01:42:07,880
Speaker 2: Germany needed to serve Justin Bieber with some papers because

2103
01:42:08,040 --> 01:42:10,800
Speaker 2: Justin left the country before they were able to give

2104
01:42:10,880 --> 01:42:14,280
Speaker 2: him his fine, so in German law they had to

2105
01:42:14,320 --> 01:42:15,160
Speaker 2: serve him personally.

2106
01:42:15,320 --> 01:42:16,640
Speaker 3: So they were like, how are we going to do this?

2107
01:42:16,800 --> 01:42:19,400
Speaker 2: They called me, I having to know some German cops

2108
01:42:20,360 --> 01:42:22,040
Speaker 2: who are working the case, and they said, hey, we

2109
01:42:22,120 --> 01:42:23,120
Speaker 2: got to serve Justin Bieber.

2110
01:42:23,200 --> 01:42:24,360
Speaker 3: Can you do it? And I was like, hell, yeah,

2111
01:42:24,360 --> 01:42:28,920
Speaker 3: I can serve Justin Bieber. That was one of the

2112
01:42:29,000 --> 01:42:29,960
Speaker 3: best days of my life.

2113
01:42:30,200 --> 01:42:33,760
Speaker 2: I've tracked down Justin Bieber, gave him German paporwork pay

2114
01:42:33,800 --> 01:42:40,599
Speaker 2: a fine. So how much time did what's his name, Kojima?

2115
01:42:40,720 --> 01:42:43,479
Speaker 2: He got just under two years, so I think it's

2116
01:42:43,479 --> 01:42:44,080
Speaker 2: about twenty one.

2117
01:42:44,120 --> 01:42:46,120
Speaker 1: He had a lot of restitution and fines and stuff

2118
01:42:46,640 --> 01:42:47,000
Speaker 1: he did.

2119
01:42:47,080 --> 01:42:50,000
Speaker 2: He never paid him, but nothing you can do about that.

2120
01:42:50,120 --> 01:42:52,960
Speaker 2: We confiscated whatever property we could and did a US

2121
01:42:53,040 --> 01:42:55,680
Speaker 2: Marshall sale on it. I think it the property had

2122
01:42:55,720 --> 01:42:58,360
Speaker 2: in LA. We only got about sixteen thousand out of him,

2123
01:42:58,880 --> 01:43:00,800
Speaker 2: but you know two years.

2124
01:43:00,880 --> 01:43:03,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, imagine that conversation. Yeah, exactly when you're like what

2125
01:43:03,680 --> 01:43:06,920
Speaker 1: are you in here for? You know, like Norm McDonald,

2126
01:43:06,960 --> 01:43:08,680
Speaker 1: the comedian Norm mc donald used to have a joke

2127
01:43:08,680 --> 01:43:11,599
Speaker 1: where he's talking about the hierarchy, you know, in prison,

2128
01:43:11,760 --> 01:43:13,960
Speaker 1: like the worst you did, you know, the higher he is.

2129
01:43:14,080 --> 01:43:17,920
Speaker 1: He's talking about oj going to prison and when he

2130
01:43:18,240 --> 01:43:21,160
Speaker 1: finally went to prison for stealing memorabilia, that he would

2131
01:43:21,200 --> 01:43:23,760
Speaker 1: sit so low on the hierarchy. But he would say like, no, man,

2132
01:43:23,800 --> 01:43:25,559
Speaker 1: I killed my wife and a waiter with a knife,

2133
01:43:26,240 --> 01:43:28,800
Speaker 1: and all the guy's like, no, you didn't. We saw

2134
01:43:28,880 --> 01:43:32,439
Speaker 1: that trial. So it's like when you're in there a

2135
01:43:32,560 --> 01:43:34,839
Speaker 1: butterfly theft, it's gotta be a weird position.

2136
01:43:34,960 --> 01:43:37,200
Speaker 4: You occupy international smugglers.

2137
01:43:37,240 --> 01:43:39,760
Speaker 1: What you tell every good You're right, Yeah, I'd leave

2138
01:43:39,800 --> 01:43:43,200
Speaker 1: the butterflies. They'd be like, well, what were you smuggling? Nothing?

2139
01:43:45,200 --> 01:43:47,599
Speaker 3: You find out this contraband.

2140
01:43:48,600 --> 01:43:49,240
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly.

2141
01:43:49,360 --> 01:43:53,240
Speaker 5: Did you have any or or possibly many instances where

2142
01:43:53,240 --> 01:43:56,560
Speaker 5: you really felt scared for your life, Like in situations

2143
01:43:56,640 --> 01:43:58,880
Speaker 5: where maybe you got into that apartment and al a

2144
01:43:58,920 --> 01:43:59,880
Speaker 5: sudden you thought, oh.

2145
01:44:00,280 --> 01:44:03,439
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, I was lucky in the service has

2146
01:44:03,479 --> 01:44:05,679
Speaker 2: been lucky in general. We haven't had an agent shot

2147
01:44:05,720 --> 01:44:07,639
Speaker 2: in the line of duty since nineteen sixty eight.

2148
01:44:07,960 --> 01:44:08,679
Speaker 1: Was shocking.

2149
01:44:08,960 --> 01:44:12,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, and of all things, that agent was ambushed by

2150
01:44:12,080 --> 01:44:15,560
Speaker 2: duck hunters, fully ambushed, fully ambushed.

2151
01:44:15,720 --> 01:44:15,880
Speaker 3: Yeah.

2152
01:44:15,960 --> 01:44:17,040
Speaker 5: They set him up.

2153
01:44:17,040 --> 01:44:18,880
Speaker 2: They set him up. Yeah, they set him up. They

2154
01:44:18,920 --> 01:44:21,439
Speaker 2: knew he was coming down a dike. He's working with

2155
01:44:21,479 --> 01:44:22,240
Speaker 2: the state game warden.

2156
01:44:22,240 --> 01:44:24,640
Speaker 3: They knew he was. I think it was Illinois. I

2157
01:44:24,760 --> 01:44:25,120
Speaker 3: think it was.

2158
01:44:26,120 --> 01:44:31,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, coming down a dike. They set him up, they hid,

2159
01:44:31,560 --> 01:44:33,439
Speaker 2: They popped up right in front of him, shot him

2160
01:44:33,720 --> 01:44:34,280
Speaker 2: point blank.

2161
01:44:34,439 --> 01:44:37,519
Speaker 3: What Yeah, he lived, he was.

2162
01:44:37,600 --> 01:44:39,360
Speaker 2: He had a shold, he had a shoulder holster on

2163
01:44:39,400 --> 01:44:41,519
Speaker 2: at the time, and they they were loaded with bird

2164
01:44:41,560 --> 01:44:43,240
Speaker 2: shot because they were duck poachers.

2165
01:44:43,320 --> 01:44:44,559
Speaker 4: But that was their first miss.

2166
01:44:44,680 --> 01:44:45,639
Speaker 3: That was their first mistake.

2167
01:44:46,360 --> 01:44:48,719
Speaker 2: So he but it was close, you know, his close

2168
01:44:48,840 --> 01:44:52,760
Speaker 2: range is like ten yards is close. And he he

2169
01:44:52,880 --> 01:44:54,880
Speaker 2: was drawing his pistol, he had his shoulder holster, he

2170
01:44:55,000 --> 01:44:58,000
Speaker 2: was drawing this revolver and most of the shot hit

2171
01:44:58,040 --> 01:45:00,720
Speaker 2: the revolver and he I had to fire back.

2172
01:45:00,760 --> 01:45:01,519
Speaker 1: But for whatever it.

2173
01:45:02,000 --> 01:45:04,120
Speaker 3: Somehow disabled his pistol and he was hit.

2174
01:45:04,240 --> 01:45:06,720
Speaker 2: He got hit in the eye and the head, and yeah,

2175
01:45:07,479 --> 01:45:10,040
Speaker 2: he lived though he stayed an agent till he retires.

2176
01:45:10,520 --> 01:45:10,720
Speaker 1: Yeah.

2177
01:45:11,400 --> 01:45:14,679
Speaker 2: But anyway to answer your question, you know, I always

2178
01:45:14,720 --> 01:45:17,200
Speaker 2: considered LA to be like a higher risk place to work.

2179
01:45:17,280 --> 01:45:17,960
Speaker 3: But I was lucky.

2180
01:45:18,120 --> 01:45:19,960
Speaker 2: I you know, I think in my whole career, I

2181
01:45:20,000 --> 01:45:23,240
Speaker 2: had to chase one guy on foot, I wrestled one

2182
01:45:23,320 --> 01:45:26,560
Speaker 2: guy to the ground. I pulled my gun often, but

2183
01:45:26,720 --> 01:45:28,840
Speaker 2: I only ever came close to shooting one person, and

2184
01:45:29,080 --> 01:45:31,679
Speaker 2: you know it didn't have to. But I never felt

2185
01:45:31,760 --> 01:45:35,559
Speaker 2: like I was ever in immediate I never felt super scared.

2186
01:45:35,680 --> 01:45:37,960
Speaker 2: There were moments when people said creepy things to me

2187
01:45:38,000 --> 01:45:40,759
Speaker 2: where I realized I need to get out of this situation.

2188
01:45:41,760 --> 01:45:44,320
Speaker 2: But it never got to the point where, you know,

2189
01:45:45,200 --> 01:45:47,720
Speaker 2: anybody ever physically assaulted me or drew a gun on me.

2190
01:45:47,840 --> 01:45:50,400
Speaker 2: There there have been agents that have had guns pulled

2191
01:45:50,400 --> 01:45:51,519
Speaker 2: on him, which is pretty scary.

2192
01:45:51,760 --> 01:45:53,560
Speaker 1: When you pull your gun, you mean just like to

2193
01:45:53,640 --> 01:45:55,799
Speaker 1: be like, yeah, get down, you're underrest.

2194
01:45:56,040 --> 01:45:57,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, to stay up, to be ahead of them on

2195
01:45:58,000 --> 01:46:01,040
Speaker 2: the UDA loop, right, Yeah, always going to be ahead

2196
01:46:01,040 --> 01:46:01,639
Speaker 2: of the bad guys.

2197
01:46:02,360 --> 01:46:02,599
Speaker 3: Yeah.

2198
01:46:02,760 --> 01:46:09,040
Speaker 2: So you know, an agent who retired a long time ago,

2199
01:46:09,800 --> 01:46:12,759
Speaker 2: who's deceased now, a guy named Samjola. When he retired,

2200
01:46:12,800 --> 01:46:16,599
Speaker 2: he said something very profound at his retirement party. He said,

2201
01:46:16,920 --> 01:46:19,519
Speaker 2: you cannot be in law enforcement for twenty plus years

2202
01:46:19,640 --> 01:46:22,720
Speaker 2: and not have had a few close calls, including the

2203
01:46:22,800 --> 01:46:26,680
Speaker 2: ones you don't know about. And that last part that

2204
01:46:27,000 --> 01:46:29,639
Speaker 2: really hit me. I had been on maybe ten years

2205
01:46:29,680 --> 01:46:31,640
Speaker 2: when he retired, and that I had never thought of

2206
01:46:31,720 --> 01:46:35,240
Speaker 2: that before. And you know, if somebody's going to assault you,

2207
01:46:35,560 --> 01:46:38,519
Speaker 2: it's not your choice, it's their choice, right, So you

2208
01:46:38,600 --> 01:46:42,040
Speaker 2: don't know, you don't know if somebody's thinking about killing you,

2209
01:46:42,720 --> 01:46:44,720
Speaker 2: looking at you to see if they could get the

2210
01:46:44,840 --> 01:46:46,680
Speaker 2: upper hand on you, and you know.

2211
01:46:46,960 --> 01:46:49,639
Speaker 5: We're hiding in the bushes like that. Yeah, one story

2212
01:46:49,720 --> 01:46:50,200
Speaker 5: we heard of.

2213
01:46:50,240 --> 01:46:54,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, we had a game warden. We did this couple

2214
01:46:55,479 --> 01:46:58,720
Speaker 1: volumes of a series called Close Calls Near death Experiences

2215
01:46:58,760 --> 01:47:02,040
Speaker 1: with people. Yeah, and we interviewed a game warden who

2216
01:47:05,920 --> 01:47:07,519
Speaker 1: he had a close call that he didn't know about,

2217
01:47:08,120 --> 01:47:13,000
Speaker 1: but then later happened to interview, later happened to interview

2218
01:47:13,040 --> 01:47:17,320
Speaker 1: a serial poacher. And in the interview the serial poacher

2219
01:47:17,360 --> 01:47:19,519
Speaker 1: who he's been arrested on other charges, he's been arrested

2220
01:47:19,560 --> 01:47:23,320
Speaker 1: on drug charges or domestic violence commever a handful of charges,

2221
01:47:24,439 --> 01:47:26,800
Speaker 1: and he's interviewing him because of potential connection to a

2222
01:47:26,880 --> 01:47:29,479
Speaker 1: poaching case. But he's in trouble now, so now he

2223
01:47:29,560 --> 01:47:33,880
Speaker 1: just wants to talk. He tells the story about a

2224
01:47:33,960 --> 01:47:37,519
Speaker 1: night in Colorado, and the warden interviewing him realizes he's

2225
01:47:37,520 --> 01:47:40,720
Speaker 1: telling him a story about himself. Oh, man, about his

2226
01:47:40,880 --> 01:47:43,960
Speaker 1: plan to kill the guy. Wow, but the guy didn't

2227
01:47:43,960 --> 01:47:45,639
Speaker 1: follow him down the right road. Wow.

2228
01:47:46,720 --> 01:47:46,920
Speaker 3: Yeah.

2229
01:47:46,960 --> 01:47:48,600
Speaker 1: And he's sitting there being like he's talking about me.

2230
01:47:49,040 --> 01:47:52,599
Speaker 1: I remember that night. Yeah, he's like, he turned down

2231
01:47:52,640 --> 01:47:53,920
Speaker 1: my road. I was going to give it to him

2232
01:47:53,960 --> 01:47:54,639
Speaker 1: right through his window.

2233
01:47:55,960 --> 01:47:57,120
Speaker 3: Yeah, how many times?

2234
01:47:57,240 --> 01:48:00,120
Speaker 2: You know, you never know if it ever happened in

2235
01:48:00,200 --> 01:48:03,040
Speaker 2: his life, no idea, And so I always kept that

2236
01:48:03,120 --> 01:48:05,360
Speaker 2: in mind what Sam had said at his retirement party,

2237
01:48:05,520 --> 01:48:07,760
Speaker 2: that you know, you just can't predict what people are

2238
01:48:07,800 --> 01:48:08,160
Speaker 2: gonna do.

2239
01:48:09,040 --> 01:48:09,240
Speaker 3: Yeah.

2240
01:48:09,400 --> 01:48:11,559
Speaker 1: All the undercover thing's gotta be scary, man, it.

2241
01:48:11,720 --> 01:48:13,040
Speaker 3: Is, but it's also so fun.

2242
01:48:13,320 --> 01:48:17,280
Speaker 2: It's so it's so rewarding to know that you're in

2243
01:48:17,439 --> 01:48:21,840
Speaker 2: there and they're they're believing, they're believing what you're saying,

2244
01:48:21,880 --> 01:48:25,000
Speaker 2: and they're saying these incredibly incriminating statements in front of you.

2245
01:48:25,439 --> 01:48:28,599
Speaker 2: Sometimes it is just so fun to leave the undercover

2246
01:48:28,720 --> 01:48:31,040
Speaker 2: contact and just be like, I got them, I got

2247
01:48:31,120 --> 01:48:31,519
Speaker 2: these guys.

2248
01:48:31,560 --> 01:48:33,120
Speaker 1: But how often do you wind up liking the guys?

2249
01:48:35,080 --> 01:48:35,280
Speaker 1: You know?

2250
01:48:35,479 --> 01:48:36,000
Speaker 3: It's weird.

2251
01:48:36,320 --> 01:48:39,360
Speaker 2: I there were times when I got to like the

2252
01:48:39,400 --> 01:48:42,040
Speaker 2: people I was working undercover, especially like in High Roller.

2253
01:48:42,160 --> 01:48:43,559
Speaker 3: I respected some of those guys.

2254
01:48:44,520 --> 01:48:46,719
Speaker 2: They reminded me I went to an inner city high school,

2255
01:48:46,720 --> 01:48:48,800
Speaker 2: and they reminded me people I knew in high school,

2256
01:48:48,840 --> 01:48:54,479
Speaker 2: and I liked them. But you know, they're just blatant killers,

2257
01:48:54,760 --> 01:48:57,679
Speaker 2: and they're blatant lawbreakers, and I just have no respect

2258
01:48:57,760 --> 01:48:57,920
Speaker 2: for that.

2259
01:48:58,479 --> 01:49:02,479
Speaker 1: So it always, yeah, what I affects the affection? Yeah,

2260
01:49:02,520 --> 01:49:03,439
Speaker 1: it does, It really does.

2261
01:49:03,600 --> 01:49:06,120
Speaker 2: I mean, I guess it's I like you, but you

2262
01:49:06,320 --> 01:49:08,840
Speaker 2: need to have consequences, and I'm going to see what

2263
01:49:08,960 --> 01:49:12,320
Speaker 2: you do when those consequences are delivered. Right, So what

2264
01:49:12,400 --> 01:49:14,679
Speaker 2: I'm more interested in is what happens after these guys

2265
01:49:14,720 --> 01:49:18,280
Speaker 2: are caught. Do they accept responsibility? Do they change their ways?

2266
01:49:18,640 --> 01:49:21,559
Speaker 2: If that's the case, I can like those people, right,

2267
01:49:22,160 --> 01:49:24,240
Speaker 2: But if they snub their nose and they call me

2268
01:49:24,280 --> 01:49:26,240
Speaker 2: a jack booted thug and I made up everything, and

2269
01:49:26,320 --> 01:49:29,320
Speaker 2: I fabricated everything and they don't take responsibility.

2270
01:49:29,760 --> 01:49:32,280
Speaker 3: I don't have any respect for that person. So you

2271
01:49:32,320 --> 01:49:33,560
Speaker 3: can't really like a person like that.

2272
01:49:33,800 --> 01:49:36,800
Speaker 1: So if you do, if you do undercover, take the

2273
01:49:36,880 --> 01:49:40,200
Speaker 1: Japanese individual, you do undercover. But then because of the

2274
01:49:40,240 --> 01:49:46,240
Speaker 1: way your agency works, you don't vanish, right, right, you

2275
01:49:46,360 --> 01:49:49,200
Speaker 1: gotta He's not like whatever happened to that guy? Right,

2276
01:49:49,560 --> 01:49:51,720
Speaker 1: It's like there you are, right, You're like, oh, no,

2277
01:49:51,840 --> 01:49:56,040
Speaker 1: I'm me, I'm special agent blank. Anyone can find out

2278
01:49:56,680 --> 01:50:00,200
Speaker 1: what my family history is, where I live. Does that

2279
01:50:00,320 --> 01:50:01,920
Speaker 1: not wind up stressing you out that all of a

2280
01:50:01,960 --> 01:50:05,720
Speaker 1: sudden you're a known thing. And if they ever had

2281
01:50:05,800 --> 01:50:09,879
Speaker 1: some kind of vengeful impulse, it's like they know exactly

2282
01:50:09,920 --> 01:50:10,840
Speaker 1: who betrayed them.

2283
01:50:10,920 --> 01:50:15,760
Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, And this is where I think sometimes our

2284
01:50:15,800 --> 01:50:20,000
Speaker 2: agents get too paranoid. They act like they're secret agents,

2285
01:50:20,040 --> 01:50:22,280
Speaker 2: not special agents. And the bottom line is we're not

2286
01:50:22,439 --> 01:50:24,600
Speaker 2: secret agents. We are special agents. And at the end

2287
01:50:24,640 --> 01:50:26,519
Speaker 2: of your undercover you are going to have to sign

2288
01:50:26,520 --> 01:50:29,400
Speaker 2: affidavits and you may have to go to court and testify,

2289
01:50:29,760 --> 01:50:31,800
Speaker 2: and you're not going to do all of that with

2290
01:50:31,920 --> 01:50:32,800
Speaker 2: your undercover name.

2291
01:50:33,000 --> 01:50:37,799
Speaker 3: You're gonna be known. And the way.

2292
01:50:39,160 --> 01:50:42,840
Speaker 2: You know, I had so many situations where after I

2293
01:50:42,960 --> 01:50:45,479
Speaker 2: had worked somebody undercover for a year or more, I

2294
01:50:45,520 --> 01:50:47,560
Speaker 2: would run into them in court and now I'm in

2295
01:50:47,640 --> 01:50:51,559
Speaker 2: a suit and tie, I'm clean shaven. They now I'm

2296
01:50:51,600 --> 01:50:54,240
Speaker 2: referred to as special agent, newcomer. They know me as

2297
01:50:54,360 --> 01:50:58,400
Speaker 2: Ted Nelson or whatever. It's like this weird disconnect in

2298
01:50:58,439 --> 01:51:01,479
Speaker 2: their brain. I had people way smile at me in court.

2299
01:51:02,080 --> 01:51:04,360
Speaker 2: Yoshi Kojima waved and smiled at me while he was

2300
01:51:04,439 --> 01:51:07,160
Speaker 2: in belly chains with his hands chained in front of him.

2301
01:51:07,560 --> 01:51:10,160
Speaker 2: I had high roller guys smiling and waving at me

2302
01:51:10,280 --> 01:51:12,560
Speaker 2: in court, and I could never figure it out. And

2303
01:51:12,680 --> 01:51:15,320
Speaker 2: I think it's just there's like this disconnect. They don't

2304
01:51:15,320 --> 01:51:19,160
Speaker 2: associate me with Ted Nelson. I'm I'm now the agent

2305
01:51:19,200 --> 01:51:22,519
Speaker 2: who's treated them decently since the case has gone down,

2306
01:51:22,600 --> 01:51:26,000
Speaker 2: you know. But more to your point, I did have

2307
01:51:26,120 --> 01:51:30,120
Speaker 2: a case once where I arrested a guy. He became

2308
01:51:30,160 --> 01:51:32,559
Speaker 2: a fugitive because he jumped bail, and I spent years

2309
01:51:32,600 --> 01:51:34,799
Speaker 2: trying to get him back. Eventually caught him in Mexico.

2310
01:51:35,360 --> 01:51:40,280
Speaker 2: We extradited him. His two sons absolutely hated me, I

2311
01:51:40,400 --> 01:51:44,320
Speaker 2: mean hated. And these guys had guns. They were former

2312
01:51:44,439 --> 01:51:47,720
Speaker 2: Israeli army. They knew how to use guns. And I

2313
01:51:47,960 --> 01:51:50,439
Speaker 2: was worried about those guys because they knew who I was.

2314
01:51:50,520 --> 01:51:53,120
Speaker 2: Because now I'd signed all these affidavits, I'd testified in

2315
01:51:53,200 --> 01:51:57,280
Speaker 2: court against their dad and their adults. You know, So

2316
01:51:58,680 --> 01:52:02,479
Speaker 2: when I drove home, I did counter surveillance. Whenever I

2317
01:52:02,600 --> 01:52:04,960
Speaker 2: drove home, I took different routes home every day. I

2318
01:52:05,080 --> 01:52:09,920
Speaker 2: never drove directly from the office to my driveway. You know,

2319
01:52:10,200 --> 01:52:15,120
Speaker 2: I keep gun in my bedroom. And you just have

2320
01:52:15,240 --> 01:52:17,840
Speaker 2: to be careful. You have to be aware that there

2321
01:52:17,920 --> 01:52:21,280
Speaker 2: are people may be planning things you don't know. But

2322
01:52:21,560 --> 01:52:23,360
Speaker 2: it doesn't mean you don't do your job. I mean

2323
01:52:24,680 --> 01:52:28,559
Speaker 2: these guys. Sometimes you hear game wardens or federal agents saying, well,

2324
01:52:28,600 --> 01:52:31,320
Speaker 2: I'm not going to get killed over a deer. Well,

2325
01:52:31,600 --> 01:52:34,679
Speaker 2: it's not if you're doing your job. It's not your choice.

2326
01:52:35,479 --> 01:52:38,920
Speaker 2: If some deer poacher decides to ambush you, take a

2327
01:52:38,960 --> 01:52:41,560
Speaker 2: shot at you just for doing your job. Yeah, you

2328
01:52:41,840 --> 01:52:44,639
Speaker 2: darn wright might get killed for, you know, over a deer.

2329
01:52:44,800 --> 01:52:48,719
Speaker 5: Well you said, though, you're possibly going to take away

2330
01:52:48,800 --> 01:52:52,200
Speaker 5: their money, yeah, or liberty, right exactly, So it's not

2331
01:52:52,360 --> 01:52:52,800
Speaker 5: just a deer.

2332
01:52:53,000 --> 01:52:53,200
Speaker 3: Yeah.

2333
01:52:53,280 --> 01:52:56,000
Speaker 2: And sometimes you know you were talking about the low penalties, right.

2334
01:52:56,520 --> 01:52:58,680
Speaker 2: Bad guys don't know what the that they might get

2335
01:52:58,720 --> 01:53:02,360
Speaker 2: off with just probation. They think they think they sell

2336
01:53:02,400 --> 01:53:04,120
Speaker 2: an illegal butterfly, they're going to go to jail for

2337
01:53:04,200 --> 01:53:07,080
Speaker 2: ten years. So their ignorance of the law may cause

2338
01:53:07,120 --> 01:53:09,280
Speaker 2: them to react in a way that's not right. But

2339
01:53:09,680 --> 01:53:12,439
Speaker 2: bottom line is my belief on this is, you become

2340
01:53:12,520 --> 01:53:16,280
Speaker 2: a federal agent in any whatever agency but Fish and Wildlife,

2341
01:53:16,400 --> 01:53:20,120
Speaker 2: Secret Service, FBI, whatever, you're making a commitment that you're

2342
01:53:20,160 --> 01:53:23,320
Speaker 2: going to carry a gun, You're going to physically arrest people.

2343
01:53:23,640 --> 01:53:28,439
Speaker 2: You're going to threaten their liberty, their money, their house right,

2344
01:53:29,240 --> 01:53:32,000
Speaker 2: and with that comes certain risks. And if you are

2345
01:53:32,080 --> 01:53:34,000
Speaker 2: not willing to accept those risks, then you better not

2346
01:53:34,120 --> 01:53:36,400
Speaker 2: be a federal agent. You better not do undercover work.

2347
01:53:36,600 --> 01:53:39,960
Speaker 2: It's not mandatory you do undercover work. It's they ask you,

2348
01:53:40,080 --> 01:53:41,880
Speaker 2: do you want to do this undercover case? And if

2349
01:53:41,920 --> 01:53:43,640
Speaker 2: you say no, you don't have to do it.

2350
01:53:43,720 --> 01:53:47,799
Speaker 5: Did you have a conversation with your wife or spouse

2351
01:53:47,920 --> 01:53:50,120
Speaker 5: before you started doing undercover work?

2352
01:53:51,560 --> 01:53:51,600
Speaker 3: No?

2353
01:53:52,479 --> 01:53:53,799
Speaker 1: Is that why they're not your wife anymore?

2354
01:53:54,880 --> 01:53:57,920
Speaker 3: Well, I don't know why my wife's not my wife anymore.

2355
01:53:58,000 --> 01:54:01,800
Speaker 2: But you know, there were times when it was very

2356
01:54:01,840 --> 01:54:05,360
Speaker 2: stressful on the relationship because she did not like sometimes

2357
01:54:05,439 --> 01:54:07,559
Speaker 2: when I carried my gun off duty. I always carried

2358
01:54:07,600 --> 01:54:10,040
Speaker 2: my gun off duty. And there were times in La.

2359
01:54:10,360 --> 01:54:13,760
Speaker 2: Ten million people live in La. Right, I was working

2360
01:54:13,800 --> 01:54:17,160
Speaker 2: on a case involving Russian caviar traffickers, and these are

2361
01:54:17,400 --> 01:54:21,519
Speaker 2: probably mobbed up people, and I'm talking about I'm taking

2362
01:54:21,560 --> 01:54:23,920
Speaker 2: a million dollars worth of caviar from them at a time.

2363
01:54:24,280 --> 01:54:26,760
Speaker 2: Right when I sees it at the airport, million dollars.

2364
01:54:26,880 --> 01:54:29,680
Speaker 2: Definitely get killed over a million dollars. One time, my

2365
01:54:29,760 --> 01:54:31,960
Speaker 2: wife and I are at a restaurant in Santa Monica.

2366
01:54:32,840 --> 01:54:35,960
Speaker 2: You know, I'm off, We're just having dinner. We happened

2367
01:54:36,000 --> 01:54:40,000
Speaker 2: to be seated at the window, and these two Russian

2368
01:54:40,120 --> 01:54:42,800
Speaker 2: dudes walk by who were connected to the guy I

2369
01:54:42,960 --> 01:54:45,520
Speaker 2: just seized a million dollars with a caviar from and

2370
01:54:45,640 --> 01:54:49,240
Speaker 2: they do the double take. They recognize me because we

2371
01:54:49,320 --> 01:54:52,280
Speaker 2: had just done a big chearch warrant at this caviar

2372
01:54:52,360 --> 01:54:53,200
Speaker 2: processing place.

2373
01:54:53,280 --> 01:54:53,800
Speaker 3: They saw me.

2374
01:54:54,160 --> 01:54:57,280
Speaker 2: I interviewed them and I just looked at my wife.

2375
01:54:57,320 --> 01:54:59,080
Speaker 2: I was like, we gotta go, we gotta leave.

2376
01:55:00,000 --> 01:55:00,600
Speaker 3: You know, that's not.

2377
01:55:01,120 --> 01:55:03,120
Speaker 2: She was planning on a nice dinner out and that

2378
01:55:03,320 --> 01:55:04,120
Speaker 2: all changed.

2379
01:55:04,840 --> 01:55:08,320
Speaker 5: So can't say my heart rates going up and listen

2380
01:55:08,400 --> 01:55:08,560
Speaker 5: to that.

2381
01:55:08,840 --> 01:55:10,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, that was Cavard order.

2382
01:55:10,800 --> 01:55:12,640
Speaker 3: That was kind of a no crap moment, you know,

2383
01:55:12,920 --> 01:55:13,640
Speaker 3: another time to.

2384
01:55:13,640 --> 01:55:15,440
Speaker 1: Take that Cavyard to go exactly.

2385
01:55:16,120 --> 01:55:16,360
Speaker 5: Yeah.

2386
01:55:17,440 --> 01:55:17,560
Speaker 6: Uh.

2387
01:55:18,080 --> 01:55:20,120
Speaker 2: You know one one time I went I just went

2388
01:55:20,200 --> 01:55:23,200
Speaker 2: into a McDonald's during high Roller. I still have my

2389
01:55:23,280 --> 01:55:25,480
Speaker 2: big mustache, but I had to go down to the

2390
01:55:25,560 --> 01:55:28,040
Speaker 2: US Attorney's office and now I got my mustache. But

2391
01:55:28,120 --> 01:55:31,080
Speaker 2: I'm in my federal agent suit, you know, my uniform,

2392
01:55:31,200 --> 01:55:34,240
Speaker 2: my black suit, white shirt, plane tie. And I thought, oh,

2393
01:55:34,320 --> 01:55:36,560
Speaker 2: just go to McDonald's, get a coke. I walk in

2394
01:55:36,880 --> 01:55:38,760
Speaker 2: and two people in front of me. I'm like, how

2395
01:55:38,840 --> 01:55:39,680
Speaker 2: do I know this guy?

2396
01:55:40,040 --> 01:55:42,760
Speaker 3: Right? I hear his voice. I'm like, I know this dude.

2397
01:55:43,240 --> 01:55:45,520
Speaker 2: And I realized he's one of the guys in Operation

2398
01:55:45,720 --> 01:55:49,200
Speaker 2: high Roller. He's one of the bad guys. And I

2399
01:55:49,360 --> 01:55:51,560
Speaker 2: just put my sunglasses on and I turned around and

2400
01:55:51,600 --> 01:55:53,400
Speaker 2: I walked out and he never saw me, or if

2401
01:55:53,400 --> 01:55:55,400
Speaker 2: he did see me, he never made the connection guy

2402
01:55:55,440 --> 01:55:57,640
Speaker 2: in a suit versus who he was seeing on the weekends.

2403
01:55:58,400 --> 01:56:00,400
Speaker 2: But you know, I'm in a city of ten million people.

2404
01:56:00,440 --> 01:56:01,960
Speaker 2: What are the odds I'm going to run into this

2405
01:56:02,040 --> 01:56:04,840
Speaker 2: guy I just was working undercovered six days ago.

2406
01:56:05,000 --> 01:56:06,680
Speaker 3: You know, that's freaky.

2407
01:56:07,720 --> 01:56:11,680
Speaker 1: And what if they see you also have developed probably

2408
01:56:11,800 --> 01:56:15,680
Speaker 1: very heightened spatial awareness, and you're probably more likely to

2409
01:56:16,800 --> 01:56:19,480
Speaker 1: well recognize and you know who's going on.

2410
01:56:20,000 --> 01:56:22,880
Speaker 2: One thing we talked about is I worked five years

2411
01:56:22,960 --> 01:56:24,960
Speaker 2: of my career. I worked in Africa as an agent

2412
01:56:25,080 --> 01:56:29,640
Speaker 2: based at the embassy overseas, and I did not realize

2413
01:56:29,680 --> 01:56:32,800
Speaker 2: how how stressful it was to constantly.

2414
01:56:32,440 --> 01:56:34,200
Speaker 3: Be on like that deep yellow alert.

2415
01:56:35,040 --> 01:56:37,400
Speaker 2: I was more on yellow hot you know, deep yellow

2416
01:56:37,520 --> 01:56:40,080
Speaker 2: or light red alert in Africa than I ever was

2417
01:56:40,120 --> 01:56:43,080
Speaker 2: in LA. And when I came back, I just had

2418
01:56:43,120 --> 01:56:46,760
Speaker 2: this huge release of tension that I didn't realize I had.

2419
01:56:47,440 --> 01:56:49,600
Speaker 2: And I've talked to other federal agents who are based

2420
01:56:49,640 --> 01:56:52,680
Speaker 2: overseas when I was HSI and FBI, and they said

2421
01:56:52,800 --> 01:56:55,200
Speaker 2: they said they had exact same reaction. They came back

2422
01:56:55,240 --> 01:56:59,040
Speaker 2: from Southern Africa and they just like like they just

2423
01:56:59,160 --> 01:57:00,880
Speaker 2: had their their muscles relaxed.

2424
01:57:01,000 --> 01:57:03,240
Speaker 5: And that's because it's just a more hostile place.

2425
01:57:03,400 --> 01:57:06,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, and there's there's so much gun crime right, it

2426
01:57:07,000 --> 01:57:10,760
Speaker 2: just related just being a person there you are constantly

2427
01:57:11,280 --> 01:57:13,160
Speaker 2: you know, you don't even stop. When when I lived

2428
01:57:13,200 --> 01:57:15,640
Speaker 2: in Africa, if you're driving at night, you don't stop

2429
01:57:15,720 --> 01:57:17,720
Speaker 2: at red lights. You're insane. If you stop at a

2430
01:57:17,760 --> 01:57:20,360
Speaker 2: red light, yeah, you slow down, you look, but if

2431
01:57:20,520 --> 01:57:24,680
Speaker 2: nobody's coming, you go. Because that's where car hijackings happen,

2432
01:57:24,800 --> 01:57:26,760
Speaker 2: is a stop lights at night in Pretoria.

2433
01:57:26,920 --> 01:57:30,320
Speaker 3: So you just don't do it. And you know, I.

2434
01:57:32,600 --> 01:57:35,400
Speaker 2: I won't get the gun stuff in Africa, but yeah,

2435
01:57:35,480 --> 01:57:38,120
Speaker 2: people get killed all the time over stupid stuff in Africa.

2436
01:57:38,520 --> 01:57:41,400
Speaker 2: And so not only now, are you a federal agent

2437
01:57:41,480 --> 01:57:44,080
Speaker 2: working overseas on rhino horn traffick.

2438
01:57:43,720 --> 01:57:46,600
Speaker 3: Aga people year all the time?

2439
01:57:46,720 --> 01:57:49,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, and yeah life is cheap in Africa, right, they'll

2440
01:57:49,760 --> 01:57:52,000
Speaker 2: kill you for anything. And if you're talking about one

2441
01:57:52,040 --> 01:57:54,760
Speaker 2: hundred thousand dollars rhino horn, they'll definitely kill you. So

2442
01:57:54,880 --> 01:57:57,160
Speaker 2: you've got the law enforcement aspect, but then you also

2443
01:57:57,240 --> 01:57:59,800
Speaker 2: have just going to the grocery store. It's super dangerous,

2444
01:58:00,720 --> 01:58:02,120
Speaker 2: you know, and I don't want to scare people. I

2445
01:58:02,400 --> 01:58:05,160
Speaker 2: never got in trouble in Africa. I never had anybody

2446
01:58:05,720 --> 01:58:07,560
Speaker 2: try to do anything to me. But at the same time,

2447
01:58:08,080 --> 01:58:10,720
Speaker 2: I never went from a store and directly got into

2448
01:58:10,760 --> 01:58:14,720
Speaker 2: my car, I'd walk to another car. I'd look behind

2449
01:58:14,800 --> 01:58:16,800
Speaker 2: me before I got in the car. I'd sometimes walk

2450
01:58:16,840 --> 01:58:20,080
Speaker 2: around the car, just do something unusual so that i'd

2451
01:58:20,160 --> 01:58:22,160
Speaker 2: see somebody change their behavior around me.

2452
01:58:22,880 --> 01:58:25,400
Speaker 3: So, yeah, you do get in this mode of being

2453
01:58:25,440 --> 01:58:26,800
Speaker 3: on yellow alert all the time.

2454
01:58:27,560 --> 01:58:30,440
Speaker 2: And back to your question, if somebody's going to do

2455
01:58:30,680 --> 01:58:34,160
Speaker 2: undercover work, they don't automatically become a secret agent. They

2456
01:58:34,280 --> 01:58:37,640
Speaker 2: just have to be careful. Right, They're still a special agent.

2457
01:58:37,680 --> 01:58:40,280
Speaker 2: They have to do their job and they're gonna have

2458
01:58:40,400 --> 01:58:41,480
Speaker 2: to just suck it up.

2459
01:58:42,840 --> 01:58:45,040
Speaker 1: Are you going to go now and launch a whole

2460
01:58:45,760 --> 01:58:46,400
Speaker 1: second career?

2461
01:58:47,560 --> 01:58:50,400
Speaker 2: So since I retired, I've been doing some adjunct teaching

2462
01:58:50,440 --> 01:58:53,480
Speaker 2: at cal State, which I really enjoy. Law enforcement, Yeah,

2463
01:58:53,520 --> 01:58:57,040
Speaker 2: criminal justice. I teach criminal justice, administrative law. I do

2464
01:58:57,160 --> 01:58:59,000
Speaker 2: some consulting here and there. But if you don't mind

2465
01:58:59,080 --> 01:59:02,920
Speaker 2: me plug in please, I'm in conjunction with cal State.

2466
01:59:02,960 --> 01:59:06,280
Speaker 2: I'm starting a podcast called Nature's Secret Service, where we're

2467
01:59:06,320 --> 01:59:09,960
Speaker 2: going to focus on wildlife crime, interviewing people involved in it,

2468
01:59:10,000 --> 01:59:12,680
Speaker 2: and try to talk about what drives it, some of

2469
01:59:12,680 --> 01:59:15,360
Speaker 2: the things that happen, some of the interesting stories should

2470
01:59:15,360 --> 01:59:18,800
Speaker 2: be fun to should the first episode should launch in

2471
01:59:19,040 --> 01:59:23,280
Speaker 2: like early March. Oh great, so Nature's secret service. Anybody

2472
01:59:23,360 --> 01:59:24,560
Speaker 2: wants to look for it, they can find it.

2473
01:59:24,640 --> 01:59:27,800
Speaker 1: And that's in conjunction with who Cal State University graduation.

2474
01:59:27,920 --> 01:59:29,600
Speaker 3: Yeah. Thanks, should be fun. I don't know if I'll

2475
01:59:29,640 --> 01:59:32,440
Speaker 3: be a good host, but we'll see how it goes, right.

2476
01:59:32,720 --> 01:59:33,960
Speaker 1: I think you'll probably do all right.

2477
01:59:34,920 --> 01:59:36,600
Speaker 3: I get some tips from you if I need them.

2478
01:59:37,280 --> 01:59:37,560
Speaker 1: I don't know.

2479
01:59:37,640 --> 01:59:39,120
Speaker 2: That's where I go for him. I think you got

2480
01:59:39,200 --> 01:59:42,080
Speaker 2: it figured out well. I think it'll be fun. Mostly

2481
01:59:42,120 --> 01:59:45,440
Speaker 2: it's going to be talking to, you know, law enforcement professionals.

2482
01:59:45,480 --> 01:59:48,520
Speaker 2: And when you get to law enforcement people talking, the

2483
01:59:48,600 --> 01:59:50,080
Speaker 2: good stories come out pretty quick.

2484
01:59:50,400 --> 01:59:52,440
Speaker 3: So I'm pretty sure. I'm pretty sure we'll get to

2485
01:59:52,520 --> 01:59:53,120
Speaker 3: some good stuff.

2486
01:59:53,280 --> 01:59:53,840
Speaker 1: That's great man.

2487
01:59:53,880 --> 01:59:54,520
Speaker 3: Congratulations.

2488
01:59:54,560 --> 01:59:56,360
Speaker 1: Thanks, yeah, thanks for coming on the show.

2489
01:59:56,560 --> 01:59:58,640
Speaker 3: It's been a pleasure. I appreciate it. But you're very welcome.

2490
01:59:58,720 --> 01:59:59,560
Speaker 1: I appreciate it. Thank you.

2491
02:00:00,080 --> 02:00:02,240
Speaker 3: Thanks, thanks said yeah, nice to meet you guys.