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Speaker 1: A Pennsylvania mom says she goes down stairs into the

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Speaker 1: family basement only to find her eight year old little

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Speaker 1: boy Connor, and her four year old little girl Brindley dead.

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Speaker 1: To make matters worse, death by suicide, a double hanging

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Speaker 1: by the family dog's new metal dog lead how could

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Speaker 1: this happen? Police immediately seize the little boy's xbox he

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Speaker 1: was known to play on it to send messages. They

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Speaker 1: see used iPads, phones, a laptop. The children rushed to

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Speaker 1: a local hospital where they were put on life support.

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Speaker 1: They died fourteen minutes apart. We want justice. I'm Nancy

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Speaker 1: Grace his crime stories. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. From

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Speaker 1: the caller Boli shildren Husman, they're hung in the unknown

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Speaker 1: time of first can you repeat that for one? Both

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Speaker 1: children are hanging in the basement first Steptain forty four

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Speaker 1: one half the forty four Any indication from the callers

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Speaker 1: to seen a state or how these children handed up there.

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Speaker 1: She mentioned that the eight year old has been void

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Speaker 1: and has made threats of doing this with the didn't

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Speaker 1: want to go alone, and probably he may be the

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Speaker 1: landshorld situation. At this time, it should just be the

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Speaker 1: mother of the three children on seen two children dead

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Speaker 1: hung in the basement. It's really hard for me to

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Speaker 1: believe that an eight year old little boy, Connor Snyder,

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Speaker 1: spoke of suicide and had the wherewithal to hang himself.

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Speaker 1: Is it possible? Yes? Is it probable? I don't think so.

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Speaker 1: And he didn't want to go by himself. So what

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Speaker 1: he lured his four year old little sister to hang

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Speaker 1: herself as well? How could an eight year old pull

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Speaker 1: that off? I'm Nancy Grace, this is crime Stories. Thank

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Speaker 1: you for being with us, and I can tell you

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Speaker 1: one thing. I want justice. As police intensified their search

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Speaker 1: for the truth, they hone in on an xbox for

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Speaker 1: clues after an eight year old boy and his four

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Speaker 1: year old sister are found hanged in the basement of

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Speaker 1: their Pennsylvania home by a dog leash. As mystery continues

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Speaker 1: to surround their deaths now, let me make one thing

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Speaker 1: very very clear. Do I like reporting on this No?

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Speaker 1: I do not. It reminds me of trying cases in

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Speaker 1: front of juries. The worlds are bitter in my mouth.

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Speaker 1: But I want the truth. And not only do I

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Speaker 1: want the truth, I want other moms and dad's grandparents

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Speaker 1: aunt's uncles to know what happened so they can avoid

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Speaker 1: a horrible thing like this happening in their family. Joining

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Speaker 1: me right now in all Star panel first of All

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Speaker 1: judge and trial lawyer anchor at Court TV. You can

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Speaker 1: find her at Ashley Wilcot dot com. Ashley Wilcott Joining me.

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Speaker 1: Cloyd Steiger thirty six years Seattle Police twenty two years

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Speaker 1: homicide author can find him at Cloyd Steiger dot com.

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Speaker 1: Renowned psychologist doctor Karen Stark joining me out of London today.

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Speaker 1: You can find her at Karnstark dot com. Doctor Katherine

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Speaker 1: Maloney the Deputy Chief Medical Examiner, Erie County Medical Examiner's Office, Buffalo,

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Speaker 1: New York. You can also find her at Nicols City

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Speaker 1: Forensics dot com. But right now to investigate a reporter

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Speaker 1: with Radar Online dot com. Alexis Terrestaurant. I'm having a

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Speaker 1: really hard time understanding how an eight year old boy

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Speaker 1: and his four year old sister were masterminds of a

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Speaker 1: double suicide. Alexis tell me the fact scenarios surrounding their death. Well,

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Speaker 1: the mom says she made a call to nine one one.

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Speaker 1: She said she had been upstairs in the house. The

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Speaker 1: kids have been playing together, she said. She decided to

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Speaker 1: go outside for a cigarette. She comes back about ten

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Speaker 1: minutes later. She usually hears the children. She hears them playing,

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Speaker 1: she hears them laughing maybe, but she hears them fighting.

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Speaker 1: She doesn't hear them at all, So she comes back

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Speaker 1: inside the house. She looks around, she doesn't see them.

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Speaker 1: She goes downstairs in the basement of the house, where

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Speaker 1: she sees the children are hanging from a dog lead.

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Speaker 1: And what she sees in the scene is the little

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Speaker 1: boy eight, little sister four have stood up. They've tied

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Speaker 1: at their necks, rope around their necks, stood on dining

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Speaker 1: room table chairs and kicked the chairs away, and she

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Speaker 1: finds them hanging there. You know, it's almost too much

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Speaker 1: for me to take in. Alexis, you have a beautiful,

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Speaker 1: beautiful little boy. How old is he now? He is five? Oh, Lord,

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Speaker 1: have mercy. It just it seems like yesterday. You know,

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Speaker 1: we were all there in the hospital, and remember your

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Speaker 1: lung collapsed and you had so many problems, and you

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Speaker 1: were there for My husband loved it. And now he's

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Speaker 1: five years old. Ashley, I know how old your three are.

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Speaker 1: And it's not just us, everybody on the panel either

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Speaker 1: has a child or has a relative child four years old.

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Speaker 1: Don't judge me, especially you, Ashley will all caught miss perfect.

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Speaker 1: But I was just putting together two sixteen Christmas album.

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Speaker 1: I was determined that I would not be three years

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Speaker 1: behind come this Christmas just two years behind. And I

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Speaker 1: was looking at the pictures of the twins, and it

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Speaker 1: nearly broke my heart to think, Ashley Willcott trial lawyer

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Speaker 1: and judge, that these two could have masterminded their own suicide. Ashley,

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Speaker 1: take a listen to our friends at WTX. At Fox

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Speaker 1: twenty nine, is Jeff Carr. The Burts County District Attorney

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Speaker 1: is refusing comment on the investigation, but the claims of

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Speaker 1: bullying have shifted focus somewhat to the local elementary school

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Speaker 1: Connor attended, where counseling is offered. Connor was a beloved

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Speaker 1: member of the Creamwich Elementary School community who enjoyed his

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Speaker 1: peers and teachers. He's dearly missed as fondly remembered for

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Speaker 1: the smile that he brought on his face and he

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Speaker 1: brought to the people he encountering each day. Search warrants

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Speaker 1: reveal investigators have taken electronic equipment from the home, including

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Speaker 1: an Xbox and the plastic coated wire. Investigators learned Snyder

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Speaker 1: had multiple cell phones and returned with warrants to obtain

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Speaker 1: two of them. The probe continues to find out what

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Speaker 1: happened inside the two story brick that stands tonight with

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Speaker 1: all the shades down. The County Corner has not ruled

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Speaker 1: on our cause of death, saying there is still more

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Speaker 1: testing required. Last Saturday would have been Connor's ninth birthday.

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Speaker 1: Snyder immediately call nine one one, and first responders at

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Speaker 1: the scene were able to revive both children. They were

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Speaker 1: raced to the Lehigh Valley Hospital Cedar Crest, where they

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Speaker 1: were put on life support. Both children died three days

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Speaker 1: later and fourteen minutes apart after they were taken off

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Speaker 1: life support. At first, of course, we see the cops

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Speaker 1: seizing all of the electronics, including an Xbox to Floyd Steiger,

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Speaker 1: Seattle PD, gluding twenty two years on homicide. Why the

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Speaker 1: xbox and what information can be obtained from an xbox?

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Speaker 1: Cloyd Well. Xbox is a computer like any other computer,

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Speaker 1: and it has a hard drive that searches and other

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Speaker 1: things can be gleaned from by computer experts and I'm

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Speaker 1: sure they took all the electronics out of the house

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Speaker 1: because they're seeing if this kid really contemplated suicide, did

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Speaker 1: he tell anybody about it online? Did he did he

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Speaker 1: search to things online having to do with that, So

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Speaker 1: that would be the reason they take that it's a

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Speaker 1: good piece of information or a good source of evidence.

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Speaker 1: Ashley Wilcott, let's talk about Xbox. You know, when John

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Speaker 1: David finishes his homework and whatever he's got to do,

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Speaker 1: Lucy is not obsessed as much. She's all about TikTok

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Speaker 1: right now, taking pictures of herself. But Xbox. I hear

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Speaker 1: John David on his PS four and he's playing games,

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Speaker 1: and at the same time he's talking. It sounds like

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Speaker 1: he's talking to ten different children and they're They're all,

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Speaker 1: I don't know what they do. I stand over's shoulder,

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Speaker 1: I find out who he's talking to, him playing with,

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Speaker 1: and then I'll let nature take its course. But Ashley,

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Speaker 1: what can be gleaned, as Cloyd Steiger was saying from

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Speaker 1: the Xbox that this eight year old boy, Connor Snyder

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Speaker 1: was playing on what you can glean as a whole

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Speaker 1: lot of information about this mother's allegation statement that he

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Speaker 1: killed himself. You want to look at what was his demeanor,

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Speaker 1: what was he doing, how was he acting? And guess what.

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Speaker 1: I would suggest that if you have any child, especially

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Speaker 1: an eight year old who's playing on an Xbox and

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Speaker 1: you see has history of playing with friends and playing

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Speaker 1: different games and doing different things, that is not indicative

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Speaker 1: to me of an eight year old who has suppressed

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Speaker 1: or has such issues that they might try to kill themselves.

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Speaker 1: Number two, I have to throw in why I have

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Speaker 1: a chance an eight year old is not going to

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Speaker 1: hang themselves. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace, their mother reportedly

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Speaker 1: told a dispatcher bullying could be to blame for the tragedy.

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Speaker 1: Cards three. The initial transmission from dispatchers on September twenty

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Speaker 1: third let first responders know it was two children that

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Speaker 1: needed help inside this Albany Township home. The horrifying detail

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Speaker 1: about how they were found came next. Hanging in the basement.

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Speaker 1: It was eight year old Connor and four year old

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Speaker 1: Brindley Snyder found hanging in the basement. Court documents show

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Speaker 1: it was their mother, Lisa, who says she found her children.

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Speaker 1: Prosecutors confirmed state police have gotten several search warrants in

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Speaker 1: the investigation, including for two of Lisa's cell phones. Lisa

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Speaker 1: has not spoken publicly about her loss, and for more

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Speaker 1: than two weeks, with autopsy's deem still inconclusive, no clear

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Speaker 1: answers about why or how the young brother and sister

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Speaker 1: wound up in that basement. Court documents revealed the children

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Speaker 1: were hanging three feet apart with a wire wrapped around

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Speaker 1: a support beam in the basement at around both their

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Speaker 1: necks and on the floor two chairs knocked over. It's

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Speaker 1: really really hard for me to hear those facts. You're

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Speaker 1: hearing our friend at wtx F Fox twenty nine, that

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Speaker 1: was Jeff Cole reporting. Interesting. I'm taking in every detail

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Speaker 1: of what I'm hearing to doctor Katherine Maloney. Everyone, we

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Speaker 1: are really privileged to have the Deputy Chief Medical Examiner,

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Speaker 1: Erie County Medical Examiner's office in Buffalo. You can also

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Speaker 1: find her at Nicol City Forensics dot com. Doctor Katherine,

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Speaker 1: I'm hearing about now. One thing is really concerning me.

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Speaker 1: The wire. The wire, because we first heard that their

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Speaker 1: hangings were affected by a or more than one dog leash.

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Speaker 1: Now I'm hearing a wire was involved, explained to me

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Speaker 1: Doctor Kather and Maloney. How that would work well. Generally

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Speaker 1: with a hanging, you basically need to provide enough pressure

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Speaker 1: around the neck that you're closing off the blood vessels

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Speaker 1: that are going to and from the head. So really

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Speaker 1: any object might work, so electrical wires or a dog leash,

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Speaker 1: or a rope or something like that. These objects also

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Speaker 1: work just as well for a ligature strangulation, but could

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Speaker 1: potentially be used for a hanging. I just don't understand

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Speaker 1: how an eight year old could affect this double suicide.

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Speaker 1: It's a wire dog leash made for big dogs. Jackie

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Speaker 1: here is telling me that makes more sense. Alexis to

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Speaker 1: russhuck I investigate a report Radar online dot com. At

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Speaker 1: first I heard dog leash, I thought of our dog leash,

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Speaker 1: which is nylon or rope of some sort, and that's

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Speaker 1: what I thought of. But I wasn't thinking of a

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Speaker 1: metal type dog leash. It's actually a dog lead, and

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Speaker 1: so it's less of the material and more of something

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Speaker 1: that would lead a bigger dog. If that does that

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Speaker 1: make sense, yes, it does. Take a listen. Alexis to

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Speaker 1: our friends at Philly NBC ten. This is Steven Fisher.

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Speaker 1: Two kids were found unconscious inside this house here in

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Speaker 1: Albany Township. A few days later, they were both pronounced

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Speaker 1: dead at the hospital. The Burks County District Attorney, along

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Speaker 1: with state police, they're investigating, but so far there are

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Speaker 1: many more questions than answers. Police and first responders were

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Speaker 1: called to this house along State Route one forty three

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Speaker 1: in Albany Township, Burks County. When they got here, two

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Speaker 1: kids were found inside and unconscious. Both were flown to

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Speaker 1: the hospital. Then three days later, on Thursday, eight year

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Speaker 1: old Connor Snyder and four year old Brindley Snyder were

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Speaker 1: pronounced dead. Police have only said that their cause of

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Speaker 1: death was related to injuries they sustained last Monday. With

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Speaker 1: many questions going unanswered, sweet rumors have started to swirl

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Speaker 1: here in this small town of about seventeen hundred people.

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Speaker 1: Autopsies were scheduled today, which would have determined the cause

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Speaker 1: and manner of death for both Brindley and Connor. However,

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Speaker 1: the corner's report came back unclear, saying they need additional

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Speaker 1: forensic testing. Police and the DA's officer trying to determine

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Speaker 1: if this was some sort of accident or if a

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Speaker 1: crime took place. Okay, I'm trying to figure out what

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Speaker 1: they're looking for, and before I go to doctor Katherine

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Speaker 1: Maloney out of Buffalo, regarding what we're just hearing that

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Speaker 1: the corner's report is unclear. I don't know how clear

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Speaker 1: it's got to be to know they were strangled by

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Speaker 1: a dog lead. But regarding taking the Xbox of the

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Speaker 1: little boy eight year O'Connor Snyder, I know that Microsoft

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Speaker 1: has just added anti bullying message filters to Xbox Live. Bullying, racism,

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Speaker 1: toxic language have long been problems on Xbox basically as

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Speaker 1: long as it has existed. But now, instead of just

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Speaker 1: moderating that afterwards, Microsoft has actually added four levels of

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Speaker 1: text filters to Xbox Live, and you can have friendly, medium, mature,

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Speaker 1: and unfiltered. What I'm telling you is it's not just

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Speaker 1: a game. Children and I guess adults get on Xbox

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Speaker 1: and play, but they speak to each other and they're

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Speaker 1: not just playing a game. It's just like being in

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Speaker 1: an arcade with a bunch of little boys or girls

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Speaker 1: playing Xbox. They can say anything they want to. They

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Speaker 1: can bully, they can say racist slurs, they can curse,

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Speaker 1: and they can type and speak bullying language. Now immediately

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Speaker 1: cops start looking at this child's xbox. But I noticed

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Speaker 1: they had to give a warrant to mommy to get

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Speaker 1: our cell phones. Man, I'd be laying on the courthouse

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Speaker 1: steps begging please take my blood, take my DNA, take

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Speaker 1: my fingerprints, take my cell phone, whatever you want. Just

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Speaker 1: help me, you know. To doctor Katherine Maloney, they're found

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Speaker 1: hanging in the basement with dog leads, metal dog leads.

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Speaker 1: What's the problem. Why can the medical examiner make a decision?

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Speaker 1: The Corners report came back unclear and need some more

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Speaker 1: forensic testing. What does that mean? Forensic testing on what well.

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Speaker 1: It's possible they're having experts look at some of the findings.

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Speaker 1: For example, sometimes you might have an anthropologist look at

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Speaker 1: the next structures and sometimes they can determine if there

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Speaker 1: are injuries that are more consistent with some type of

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Speaker 1: strangulation versus hanging, a suicidal hanging. So they might be

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Speaker 1: waiting for something like that, or it's possible they're waiting

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Speaker 1: for more investigation to be performed by the police, or

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Speaker 1: maybe medical records or the investigation with the school to

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Speaker 1: be completed before they make a final determination, because nothing

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Speaker 1: definitive was founded autopsy, especially after a few days in

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Speaker 1: the hospital. Maybe it was difficult for them to determine

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Speaker 1: if this could have been a ligature strangulation versus a

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Speaker 1: hanging versus a manual strangulation. But then there's so many

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Speaker 1: factors weighing into this decision. Karen Stark, do you believe

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Speaker 1: an eight year old could be bullied that badly on

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Speaker 1: Xbox on the internet so as to commit suicide and

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Speaker 1: take the little sister with him? An eight year old,

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Speaker 1: even beginning to an ear old who really doesn't have

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Speaker 1: good hand eye coordination as I've read, this little boy

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Speaker 1: didn't have being able to do all of that and

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Speaker 1: think ahead and figure out how to hang himself and

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Speaker 1: his sister. None of that is pribable to me. I

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Speaker 1: know it's almost too much for me to take in

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Speaker 1: that an eight year old could do this, But I

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Speaker 1: want you, especially Karen, to listen to what we hear

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Speaker 1: out of Burke's County said that Connor was bullied and

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Speaker 1: wanted to die. Connor hated school, and Connor was scared

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Speaker 1: to go by himself, and that is why he had

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Speaker 1: Bridley with it. As you will recall, Connor was only

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Speaker 1: eight years of age. Pennsylvania State Police gathered video from

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Speaker 1: the bus the school bus which brought Connor home on

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Speaker 1: September twenty thirty, twenty nineteen. The video showed no signs

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Speaker 1: that Connor was in any distress whatsoever. In back from

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Speaker 1: the video, she appeared to be a happy child. Other

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Speaker 1: witnesses also told police that Connor was not bulleyed at

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Speaker 1: school and never complained about school. Officials and family members

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Speaker 1: were interviewed and indicated that Connor never expressed that he

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Speaker 1: was boring or suicidal. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. The

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Speaker 1: Pennsylvania State Police also responded they immediately obtained a search

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Speaker 1: warrant to search the residence and the initial search warrant

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Speaker 1: and he found a number of things, including the vinyl

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Speaker 1: wire tie out dog cable which was labeled Super and

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Speaker 1: two hundred and fifty pounds. This dog lead cable had

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Speaker 1: been ordered by the defendant the day before September twenty seven,

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Speaker 1: twenty nineteen, and Lisa Snyder picked up this dog cable

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Speaker 1: on September twenty third at nine thirty am from the Walmart,

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Speaker 1: Okay hold on just a moment, Welcome back. I'm Nancy Grace.

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Speaker 1: This is Crime Stories and with me an all star panel,

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Speaker 1: Ashley Wilcott, Cloyd Steiger, doctor Karen Stok, doctor Katherine Maloney,

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Speaker 1: and Alexis terres Chuck investigative reporter. Did anybody but me

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Speaker 1: just hear that, Alexis tres Chuck, you didn't tell me

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Speaker 1: that the dog leash had just been ordered the day

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Speaker 1: before it was used to hang the children. You know,

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Speaker 1: I always say there is no coincidence in criminal law, Alexis,

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Speaker 1: what do we know about the ordering of the dog leash? Well,

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Speaker 1: the mom said that she ordered it from Walmarch, She

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Speaker 1: picked it up that morning and that the kids wanted

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Speaker 1: to play with it because it was brand new. That

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Speaker 1: was her explanation to the police when they got there

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Speaker 1: and found that the children hanging. She said they had

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Speaker 1: wanted to play with it since it was a brand

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Speaker 1: new toy, and she went ahead and let them. But yeah,

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Speaker 1: she ordered it the day before. Okay, I've got a

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Speaker 1: problem with that. So it's all coming together now that

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Speaker 1: based on a video of the little boy on the

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Speaker 1: school bus, he didn't seem to be depressed in any way,

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Speaker 1: to be afraid in any way. So it concerns me

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Speaker 1: of course, ashe Wilcott, you're raising children of your own.

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Speaker 1: You see them every day at work. Videos don't always

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Speaker 1: tell everything. People children smile for the camera when inside

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Speaker 1: they're dying, they're being abused. I mean, look at the

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Speaker 1: House of Horrors out in California, the Turpin family, remember,

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Speaker 1: the whole bunch of them would put on their matching

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Speaker 1: Disney outfits and smile for the camera. They were being

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Speaker 1: starved and shamed of their beds at home every day. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and it's really important to keep in mind. I see

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Speaker 1: abused and neglected children as a judge and juvenile court

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Speaker 1: all the time, and the reality is a they can

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Speaker 1: appear to be really, really happy and be a lot

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Speaker 1: of kids, even young kids, statistically do commit suicides that

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Speaker 1: on the outside appear to be perfectly happy and smiling

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Speaker 1: and making AI's and extracurricular activities and everybody likes them.

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Speaker 1: And they can still either commit to the side or

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Speaker 1: be the victim of child abuse and neglect. So a

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Speaker 1: really important point that you made. I got another problem

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Speaker 1: with this case. When one fact is off kilter, I'll

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Speaker 1: look for a way to explain it. I had what

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Speaker 1: I consider the best trild judge ever as my judge

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Speaker 1: for many years in Inner City Atlanta, Luther Alverson, and

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Speaker 1: he maybe he was common sense because he used to

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Speaker 1: be a barber before he was a judge. He would

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Speaker 1: tell every single jury under the law of the Criminal Code,

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Speaker 1: it is your duty to make all witnesses speak the

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Speaker 1: truth and impu and perjury on no one. In other words,

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Speaker 1: facts can seem inconsistent, but you can divine a way

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Speaker 1: to make them fit like a ruby's cute, so they

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Speaker 1: all make sense and none of them are false. But

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Speaker 1: I've got a problem with this. Take a listen to

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Speaker 1: our friends over at WGA news. Hey, this is Meredith Georgison.

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Speaker 1: The brother and sister were found hanging in the basement

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Speaker 1: of this home, but police hope it's the other items

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Speaker 1: they found in the house that will help unlock the

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Speaker 1: mystery of their deaths. Eight year old Connor Snyder and

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Speaker 1: four year old Brinley Snyder were pronounced dead three days

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Speaker 1: after they were found suspended from a basement beam with

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Speaker 1: a wire cable around their necks. Autopsy results are still

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Speaker 1: pending and no one has been charged, leaving a lot

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Speaker 1: of unanswered questions. What state police say. The investigation is

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Speaker 1: far from over. You have to rely on physical evidence, interviews,

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Speaker 1: that's why we search warrants for phone stuff, computer stuff.

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Speaker 1: It's just still a very active, ongoing investigation among the electronics.

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Speaker 1: A search warrant shows police gathered an Xbox gaming console.

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Speaker 1: And we spoke with neighbors on either side of this

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Speaker 1: home and they say they are distraught by this news,

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Speaker 1: but didn't want to comment further. You know, to Cloyd's

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Speaker 1: Tiger twenty two years homicide detective and author Cloyd, the

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Speaker 1: goal standard to me is Mark Class because when his

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Speaker 1: daughter Polly went missing from a spend the night party

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Speaker 1: at her own home, Okay, cops came to him, he insisted,

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Speaker 1: take my DNA, take my fingerprints, whatever you want, search

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Speaker 1: my place, search my car. I don't care, just find

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Speaker 1: the person that took Polly. Polly was murdered. Certainly, Mark Class,

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Speaker 1: her father had nothing to do with it. But I

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Speaker 1: find it very disturbing that this mom. You know, with

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Speaker 1: most moms and dads, they'll sign a consent, hey, look

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Speaker 1: anywhere you want. They had to get a search warrant

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Speaker 1: from this mom. I don't understand what was it on

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Speaker 1: her cell phone? She didn't want anybody to see. Well,

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Speaker 1: I think first of all, getting a stretch warted, just

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Speaker 1: the prudent thing to do. Even if a person gives

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Speaker 1: you consent, they can withdraw the consent at anytime, so

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Speaker 1: I'm not worried about that. But you're right. The maternal

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Speaker 1: instinct is this most powerful instinct a mother has, and

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Speaker 1: to protect their child and to want things done. A

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Speaker 1: couple of things. When the paramas were working on her

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Speaker 1: children in the basement, she stayed upstairs. A mother, if

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Speaker 1: not restrained, it would not be right down there with

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Speaker 1: their children. Straight up to Alexis Rushchuk, investigative reporter writer

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Speaker 1: online dot Com, Alexis, the case takes a very bizarre

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Speaker 1: turn with animal cruelty charges. I will let you make

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Speaker 1: this announcement. So in the course of the investigation, after

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Speaker 1: her children are found hanging in the basement, the police

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Speaker 1: start searching the few cell phones they can find. They

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Speaker 1: actually can't find all her cell phones, and then what

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Speaker 1: they discover are photographs that she has taken of her

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Speaker 1: sexually abusing the family dog, and she has sent these

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Speaker 1: photographs to another person. So they contact this other person

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Speaker 1: and they get these pictures. They are charging her with

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Speaker 1: animal cruelty, which is sexual relations with an animal because

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Speaker 1: of what she has done with the dog. Okay, a

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Speaker 1: look to this. I'm not one in favor of dead air,

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Speaker 1: but I just had to take that in for just

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Speaker 1: a moment. Okay, doctor Maloney, as a renowned as you are,

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Speaker 1: and Ashley will cut with your juris doctorate degree, Chloyd

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Speaker 1: Steiger homicide detective. I think we all need to take

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Speaker 1: a back seat for a moment. Bring in a shrink, doctor,

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Speaker 1: Karen Stark, help me out, Karen, Doc sex, it exists, Nancy.

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Speaker 1: It's a perversion. So it's not something that you're going

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Speaker 1: to find all the time. It's not usual, but this

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Speaker 1: is it. Well, I hope, Karen, I hope not. I mean,

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Speaker 1: how can you even talk about it like that like

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Speaker 1: you're reading, you know, the weather report, because there are

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Speaker 1: people abusing the family dog. This is a mom, not

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Speaker 1: your regular mom, Nancy. This is a disturb you can

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Speaker 1: say that again, a very disturbed person. They would never

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Speaker 1: have known if they hadn't looked at her. Now I

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Speaker 1: know why she made him get a warrant for her

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Speaker 1: cell phone. Yeah, I get it, as she willcought. And

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Speaker 1: we wonder, we wonder why children have so many emotional problems.

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Speaker 1: Mom is having sex with the family dog. Help me, Ashley,

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Speaker 1: I can't help you. I don't get it. Okay, it's

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Speaker 1: a perversion. But here's what I want to suggest is

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Speaker 1: isn't it interesting, Nancy, how when you start with a

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Speaker 1: mother's story that doesn't make good sense of, Oh, the

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Speaker 1: eight year old hung himself and also his four year

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Speaker 1: old sister, and you start digging deeper. Not only do

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Speaker 1: you feel like there's something suspicious, you also start to

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Speaker 1: find evidence of this type of behavior that the West's

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Speaker 1: faith that is not normal, is not okay. Crime Stories

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Speaker 1: with Nancy Grace for Documents revealed that Lisa Snyder has

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Speaker 1: been charged with murdering her eight year old son and

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Speaker 1: four year old daughter, a disturbing case. To be sure,

428
00:28:26,880 --> 00:28:29,600
Speaker 1: she was taken by police from the District Judge's office

429
00:28:29,640 --> 00:28:32,320
Speaker 1: here in Hamburg to Burke's County Prison, where she will

430
00:28:32,359 --> 00:28:35,240
Speaker 1: be held without bail. Now. As we first reported to

431
00:28:35,280 --> 00:28:38,920
Speaker 1: get back in October, police found the children hanging from

432
00:28:38,960 --> 00:28:41,720
Speaker 1: a plastic covered wire cable tied to a beam in

433
00:28:41,760 --> 00:28:44,200
Speaker 1: the basement of the family home along Route one forty

434
00:28:44,280 --> 00:28:48,440
Speaker 1: three near Kempton. Two chairs were knocked over nearby. Police

435
00:28:48,440 --> 00:28:51,960
Speaker 1: had received a nine one call September twenty third. The

436
00:28:52,040 --> 00:28:55,360
Speaker 1: children died three days later at the hospital. Search warrants

437
00:28:55,360 --> 00:28:59,360
Speaker 1: indicated police seized laptop, cell phones, an Xbox console. They

438
00:28:59,360 --> 00:29:02,800
Speaker 1: also wanted to examine the family dog, but Snyder had

439
00:29:02,840 --> 00:29:06,360
Speaker 1: told them that she had given the dog away. Police

440
00:29:07,680 --> 00:29:11,600
Speaker 1: say Snyder told them that her older son, Connor, had

441
00:29:11,640 --> 00:29:14,440
Speaker 1: been bullied at school and indicated he wanted to take

442
00:29:14,520 --> 00:29:18,120
Speaker 1: his own life, but another resident of the home contradicted

443
00:29:18,160 --> 00:29:21,360
Speaker 1: that report, saying that the boys seemed fine getting off

444
00:29:21,400 --> 00:29:25,360
Speaker 1: the bus from school. Police say they also found evidence

445
00:29:25,360 --> 00:29:29,120
Speaker 1: that Snyder had searched online for ways to hang oneself.

446
00:29:29,200 --> 00:29:32,560
Speaker 1: Oh what a tangled web we weave when first we

447
00:29:32,720 --> 00:29:36,000
Speaker 1: practiced to deceive. I can't take credit for that, Shakespeare said.

448
00:29:36,000 --> 00:29:40,440
Speaker 1: At first that was wal News eighth reporter Barbara Barr.

449
00:29:40,840 --> 00:29:44,959
Speaker 1: So not only do we have heinous photos on her

450
00:29:44,960 --> 00:29:48,960
Speaker 1: cell phone, according to police, of her engaging relations with

451
00:29:49,000 --> 00:29:54,600
Speaker 1: the family dog, a fifty pound dog, but also searches

452
00:29:54,960 --> 00:29:59,600
Speaker 1: for how to hang one's self, alexis terrestri joining me

453
00:29:59,680 --> 00:30:02,320
Speaker 1: inst to get a reporter or radar online dot com?

454
00:30:02,360 --> 00:30:07,800
Speaker 1: Alexis what is the very latest? She has been charged

455
00:30:07,960 --> 00:30:12,120
Speaker 1: with first degree murder. She's been charged with tampering with evidence.

456
00:30:12,120 --> 00:30:15,240
Speaker 1: She's been charged with harm with a child and it's

457
00:30:15,360 --> 00:30:19,080
Speaker 1: technically unrelated to the murder of her two children. But

458
00:30:19,200 --> 00:30:23,080
Speaker 1: she has been charged with animal cruelty, which was something that,

459
00:30:23,280 --> 00:30:27,120
Speaker 1: as I said, the police discovered after she killed her children.

460
00:30:27,440 --> 00:30:31,240
Speaker 1: She is in prison or she is in jail awaiting

461
00:30:31,280 --> 00:30:37,880
Speaker 1: trial right now. This is in Pennsylvania. To Ashley Walcott,

462
00:30:38,160 --> 00:30:41,480
Speaker 1: does Pennsylvania have the death penalty? It does, and they

463
00:30:41,520 --> 00:30:44,400
Speaker 1: have not determined it's my understanding whether or not they

464
00:30:44,400 --> 00:30:49,040
Speaker 1: will seek it, but certainly the charges are eligible, at

465
00:30:49,120 --> 00:30:52,040
Speaker 1: least one of them for the death penalty. Well, whenever

466
00:30:52,400 --> 00:30:55,120
Speaker 1: you have, in most jurisdictions that have the death penalty,

467
00:30:55,600 --> 00:30:58,520
Speaker 1: more than one body, more than one dead body, it's

468
00:30:58,960 --> 00:31:04,840
Speaker 1: mass murder. And we think of mass murder as many

469
00:31:04,880 --> 00:31:09,040
Speaker 1: many people murdered, but mass murder is defined in many

470
00:31:09,120 --> 00:31:13,320
Speaker 1: criminal codebooks as more than one body. Now Here, you've

471
00:31:13,320 --> 00:31:19,120
Speaker 1: got that. You also have children young of a tender age,

472
00:31:19,520 --> 00:31:23,320
Speaker 1: which in many jurisdictions qualifies as a condition to seek

473
00:31:23,320 --> 00:31:30,600
Speaker 1: the death penalty, and extremely heinous circumstances also all three

474
00:31:30,640 --> 00:31:34,040
Speaker 1: of those would qualify for a death penalty procedure. But

475
00:31:34,240 --> 00:31:39,560
Speaker 1: also in many jurisdictions when the murderer is in conjunction

476
00:31:39,640 --> 00:31:47,040
Speaker 1: with another felony, such as a gun felony or child abuse,

477
00:31:48,480 --> 00:31:53,480
Speaker 1: that may also qualify for a death penalty trial. Right now,

478
00:31:54,160 --> 00:31:59,240
Speaker 1: if she is convicted, mommy is looking at two life sentences.

479
00:32:00,320 --> 00:32:05,760
Speaker 1: There is also life without the possibility of parole to Alexis,

480
00:32:05,800 --> 00:32:11,120
Speaker 1: to rez Chuck or anybody on panel in Pennsylvania, is

481
00:32:11,160 --> 00:32:15,800
Speaker 1: there a possibility of life without the possibility of parole. Yes,

482
00:32:15,880 --> 00:32:19,160
Speaker 1: that is a possibility because she can they can work

483
00:32:19,200 --> 00:32:20,640
Speaker 1: out a deal with her, or they can decide not

484
00:32:20,680 --> 00:32:23,040
Speaker 1: to seek the death penalty. The death penalty is in

485
00:32:23,080 --> 00:32:25,280
Speaker 1: some cases. I mean, this is two young children. To me,

486
00:32:25,320 --> 00:32:28,640
Speaker 1: it seems like an easy case. You would give them

487
00:32:28,640 --> 00:32:30,320
Speaker 1: on the death penalty, But a lot of people are

488
00:32:31,480 --> 00:32:33,680
Speaker 1: maybe not willing to do that, and so they would

489
00:32:33,680 --> 00:32:36,800
Speaker 1: do life without possibility of paroles so that they guarantee

490
00:32:36,840 --> 00:32:38,200
Speaker 1: that she would knock it out. You know, she has

491
00:32:38,240 --> 00:32:42,280
Speaker 1: another child, a seventeen year old. Then she is fairly young.

492
00:32:42,360 --> 00:32:44,200
Speaker 1: She could have more children if she got out. They

493
00:32:44,240 --> 00:32:47,360
Speaker 1: want to make sure that this never happens again. Well,

494
00:32:47,400 --> 00:32:49,480
Speaker 1: she's got one thing to be happy about. The last

495
00:32:49,520 --> 00:32:53,640
Speaker 1: prisoner executed by the electature in Pennsylvania was Elmo Smith.

496
00:32:53,680 --> 00:32:56,200
Speaker 1: That was back in sixty two. They then passed a

497
00:32:56,280 --> 00:33:01,360
Speaker 1: law changing the mode of execution to lethal injection the needle,

498
00:33:01,560 --> 00:33:05,320
Speaker 1: which is the current means of execution. So at least

499
00:33:05,400 --> 00:33:09,920
Speaker 1: she can just drift off to a pleasant sleep. But

500
00:33:10,080 --> 00:33:13,120
Speaker 1: that's not what happened to her two children, eight year

501
00:33:13,120 --> 00:33:17,800
Speaker 1: old Connor and four year old Brinley Snyder. I've learned

502
00:33:17,840 --> 00:33:21,840
Speaker 1: a lot about the children since this happened. I know

503
00:33:22,120 --> 00:33:26,000
Speaker 1: that Connor was very happy. He got along with all

504
00:33:26,000 --> 00:33:30,840
Speaker 1: his classmates. He led video games. Brinley Louise was a

505
00:33:30,880 --> 00:33:36,240
Speaker 1: preschool student with a brilliant smile, especially when standing next

506
00:33:36,280 --> 00:33:41,800
Speaker 1: to her big brother. I know that very often Connor

507
00:33:41,800 --> 00:33:44,959
Speaker 1: would get little rewards at school and he would always

508
00:33:45,040 --> 00:33:49,360
Speaker 1: pick something that he could take home to his sister

509
00:33:50,640 --> 00:33:55,760
Speaker 1: that he would giggle during reading workshop, poring over the books.

510
00:33:55,800 --> 00:33:59,080
Speaker 1: In the third grade class there at Greenwich Lhartsville Elementary

511
00:34:00,080 --> 00:34:04,960
Speaker 1: love science like my son, specifically rocks and minerals, and

512
00:34:05,040 --> 00:34:08,320
Speaker 1: he would find rocks and bring them to show the teacher,

513
00:34:08,719 --> 00:34:13,840
Speaker 1: and he loved the little sister loved. I was always

514
00:34:13,840 --> 00:34:16,759
Speaker 1: trying to find things at school to bring home to her,

515
00:34:17,080 --> 00:34:21,120
Speaker 1: and he laughed all the time. I know that he

516
00:34:21,239 --> 00:34:25,280
Speaker 1: was funny and sweet, and I know a lot about

517
00:34:25,320 --> 00:34:30,080
Speaker 1: the little girl. She adored, adored her big brother, and

518
00:34:30,160 --> 00:34:34,200
Speaker 1: had a smile that lit up a room. She was

519
00:34:34,239 --> 00:34:36,880
Speaker 1: in her second year at pre K at Early Learning

520
00:34:36,960 --> 00:34:44,800
Speaker 1: Center in Cutstown. She specifically loved a pink teddy bear,

521
00:34:45,400 --> 00:34:49,279
Speaker 1: and in many, many pictures she had the teddy bear

522
00:34:49,360 --> 00:34:54,359
Speaker 1: with her. I can only imagine the sequence of events

523
00:34:54,400 --> 00:34:58,640
Speaker 1: that led to their deaths. To doctor Kathery Maloney joining

524
00:34:58,719 --> 00:35:02,640
Speaker 1: us from Erie County Medical Examiner and Nicole City Forensics

525
00:35:02,640 --> 00:35:09,000
Speaker 1: dot Com, Doctor Catherine, what would a person go through

526
00:35:10,200 --> 00:35:16,759
Speaker 1: upun hanging? What does a person experience as the oxygen

527
00:35:17,080 --> 00:35:21,640
Speaker 1: leaves their body? Well, with a hanging, it would depending

528
00:35:21,719 --> 00:35:24,360
Speaker 1: on how type literature was. In this case, it probably

529
00:35:24,360 --> 00:35:27,279
Speaker 1: wouldn't be very tight because it was, you know, the

530
00:35:27,719 --> 00:35:32,319
Speaker 1: wire covered in vinyl. So I would suspect that there

531
00:35:32,360 --> 00:35:36,120
Speaker 1: would be a several perhaps at least a minute of

532
00:35:36,160 --> 00:35:42,000
Speaker 1: consciousness where the person was experiencing pain before they lost consciousness,

533
00:35:42,640 --> 00:35:45,240
Speaker 1: and then at that point they would be in a coma.

534
00:35:45,360 --> 00:35:50,719
Speaker 1: I'm just wondering also, if she gave them drugs alexis

535
00:35:50,800 --> 00:35:54,760
Speaker 1: Terres chuck in order to get them to cooperate, they

536
00:35:54,800 --> 00:35:56,440
Speaker 1: were saying when they took them to the hospital, when

537
00:35:56,440 --> 00:35:58,520
Speaker 1: they found them, they took them to the hospital, and

538
00:35:58,560 --> 00:36:01,960
Speaker 1: they really couldn't tell exactly what the cause of death was.

539
00:36:02,280 --> 00:36:06,640
Speaker 1: If you were being hanged against your will, even little children,

540
00:36:06,640 --> 00:36:09,080
Speaker 1: you're going to clout your neck, you're gonna try to

541
00:36:09,120 --> 00:36:11,480
Speaker 1: get away. But it didn't seem like there were any

542
00:36:11,640 --> 00:36:14,440
Speaker 1: real marks of anything on these children. So that looks

543
00:36:14,440 --> 00:36:16,520
Speaker 1: like that they're thinking that that's what the mom would

544
00:36:16,600 --> 00:36:21,640
Speaker 1: have done. In answer to those toxicology questions, toxicology reports

545
00:36:21,880 --> 00:36:25,680
Speaker 1: just announced, so the children did not have drugs in

546
00:36:25,760 --> 00:36:30,239
Speaker 1: their systems. I do not know how they were cajoled

547
00:36:30,480 --> 00:36:34,640
Speaker 1: into getting up on those chairs, but I have big

548
00:36:34,719 --> 00:36:36,839
Speaker 1: questions as to whether an eight year old boy could

549
00:36:36,840 --> 00:36:40,000
Speaker 1: throw a lead for a two hundred and fifty pound

550
00:36:40,040 --> 00:36:44,799
Speaker 1: dog up over a railing and the ceiling of the

551
00:36:44,840 --> 00:36:50,800
Speaker 1: basement and then arrange a double suicide. Very very difficult

552
00:36:50,800 --> 00:36:54,520
Speaker 1: to believe, you know, to you, Cloyd Steiger, we know

553
00:36:54,560 --> 00:36:57,359
Speaker 1: it was a metal lead covered in plastic. I wonder

554
00:36:57,360 --> 00:37:00,160
Speaker 1: if her fingerprints, the Miles fingerprints, are on it. Well,

555
00:37:00,760 --> 00:37:03,040
Speaker 1: it could be, although it's much more likely that her

556
00:37:03,120 --> 00:37:05,360
Speaker 1: DNA will be on it. But of course the problem

557
00:37:05,400 --> 00:37:08,200
Speaker 1: is she picked it up in a store, so there's

558
00:37:08,200 --> 00:37:10,600
Speaker 1: a legitimate reason her think of princes and or DNA

559
00:37:10,680 --> 00:37:13,919
Speaker 1: could be on that leash. So they definitely do much

560
00:37:14,480 --> 00:37:17,960
Speaker 1: evidentially in that case. I mean that forensics are incredible.

561
00:37:18,080 --> 00:37:22,680
Speaker 1: On the Google account, we find September seventeen a search

562
00:37:22,880 --> 00:37:26,040
Speaker 1: by mommy carbon monoxide in a car? How long to die?

563
00:37:26,400 --> 00:37:30,840
Speaker 1: September twenty almost got away with it? Best episodes September

564
00:37:30,880 --> 00:37:37,440
Speaker 1: twenty two hanging Yourself. Facebook records indicate photos and conversations

565
00:37:37,440 --> 00:37:44,080
Speaker 1: regarding sex, messages about the dog, sex acts on Mommy.

566
00:37:44,440 --> 00:37:47,319
Speaker 1: We know also the children will remove from Snyder's care

567
00:37:47,360 --> 00:37:50,360
Speaker 1: in two fourteen and return thanks d Facts at it

568
00:37:50,440 --> 00:37:55,640
Speaker 1: again in two thousand and fifteen. D Facts Children's Services

569
00:37:55,680 --> 00:37:58,160
Speaker 1: have been involved with the Snyder family all the way

570
00:37:58,239 --> 00:38:02,960
Speaker 1: up through November two thousand. Fine, you know another issue

571
00:38:03,719 --> 00:38:07,480
Speaker 1: is motive to doctor Karen Stark, psychologist joining us. You

572
00:38:07,520 --> 00:38:11,080
Speaker 1: can find her at Karen Stark dot com. I'm just

573
00:38:11,280 --> 00:38:18,080
Speaker 1: now learning that the mom told a friend that she

574
00:38:18,120 --> 00:38:22,319
Speaker 1: had quote had enough, and according to court documents, she

575
00:38:22,400 --> 00:38:25,040
Speaker 1: told her friend in early September she quote does not

576
00:38:25,239 --> 00:38:29,320
Speaker 1: care anymore about her kids. Yeah, I read that, Nancy.

577
00:38:29,760 --> 00:38:33,600
Speaker 1: She was very supposedly depressed and had had enough of

578
00:38:33,680 --> 00:38:39,279
Speaker 1: her kids. And so instead of allowing somebody to come

579
00:38:39,320 --> 00:38:42,120
Speaker 1: in and give a proper home to these kids, or

580
00:38:42,239 --> 00:38:45,120
Speaker 1: get some help in figuring out what was going on there,

581
00:38:45,320 --> 00:38:51,120
Speaker 1: huminating And that's one more indication that this is a

582
00:38:51,440 --> 00:38:56,440
Speaker 1: very sick, disturbed, psychopathic woman. If this is not a

583
00:38:56,440 --> 00:38:59,640
Speaker 1: case for the death penalty, I do not know what is.

584
00:39:00,320 --> 00:39:03,520
Speaker 1: We wait as just as sun falls. Nancy Grace crime

585
00:39:03,600 --> 00:39:05,880
Speaker 1: Story signing off goodbye friend,