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Speaker 1: From me Theaters World News Headquarters in Bozeman, Montana. This

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Speaker 1: is Cal's wee Can Review with Ryan cal Callahan. Now

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Speaker 1: here's cal.

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Speaker 2: Another special edition, a special drop of Cal's week in Review.

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Speaker 2: This week we're speaking with p LWA, the Public Land

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Speaker 2: Waters Access Association. There's always two a's, but at PLW

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Speaker 2: A right. Speaking of sirs, our guests are Haley Sir

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Speaker 2: and Alex Leoni or Leone Leon.

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Speaker 1: Good job, Yeah, all.

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Speaker 2: Right, all right? And what do you do? Alex?

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Speaker 1: So, I'm the brand new executive director of PLWA, and

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Speaker 1: I've been on the job for about three weeks, but

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Speaker 1: I've been a fan and supporter of the organization for

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Speaker 1: over a decade.

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Speaker 2: And Haley, what are you up to?

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Speaker 3: I am the director of Access Investigations, So I'm the

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Speaker 3: person you talk to when you write into PLWA, you

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Speaker 3: call or email us with an access issue. I'm the

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Speaker 3: one that kind of does the deep digging, figures out

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Speaker 3: how we can address it if it really is a

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Speaker 3: public access issue, and how we can work towards a resolution.

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Speaker 2: And that's exactly what we need to get into. We

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Speaker 2: always hear from our listeners that they want to know

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Speaker 2: what groups to get involved with and who does what,

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Speaker 2: and that's why we're exploring PLWA, which is a group

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Speaker 2: that I have known and loved, cherished really for a

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Speaker 2: really long time, I would say, And excuse me for

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Speaker 2: saying this pretty unknown, started pretty small, I think when

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Speaker 2: Jordan and I were talking long ago on this topic,

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Speaker 2: my description of p w A p l w A

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Speaker 2: was it was a bunch of retired lawyers that got

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Speaker 2: frustrated finding no trespassing signs on public access spots where

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Speaker 2: they wanted to fish. And that's how plw A got started.

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Speaker 2: But please, you two are the experts. Let me know

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Speaker 2: of how how wrong I am. But it is an

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Speaker 2: access organization. So what what is p l w A

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Speaker 2: and what does it do?

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Speaker 1: Hayley, do you want me to jump in first or

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Speaker 1: do you want.

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Speaker 3: To absolutely good? Right?

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Speaker 1: So pl w A, I guess maybe started with a

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Speaker 1: rabble a group of rabble rousers. But it wasn't just lawyers.

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Speaker 1: There was also some of Montana's conservation giants. If you

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Speaker 1: look at the history of some of the folks that

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Speaker 1: kind of helped found the plw are found plw A.

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Speaker 1: You got to just go to Montana's out to our

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Speaker 1: Hall of fame, and you'll see a lot of those

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Speaker 1: names emboldened on that list. So we have I've been

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Speaker 1: around since the mid nineteen eighties and since nineteen eighty

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Speaker 1: five actually, and for a long time we were just

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Speaker 1: a small, all built volunteer group. But recently we've really

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Speaker 1: upped our game and we've expanded our programming just because

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Speaker 1: there's just so many access issues that have really multiplied

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Speaker 1: in the state of Montana. But back to the history,

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Speaker 1: PLWA has been around since nineteen eighty five. The stream

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Speaker 1: access law and the kind of underpinnings of that are

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Speaker 1: really what got the organization some feet and some notoriety

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Speaker 1: at the onset. For folks that are aware, Montana's got

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Speaker 1: the most amazing stream access law in the country, and

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Speaker 1: the fact that we're able to recreate on all public

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Speaker 1: waters above the high water marks a pretty amazing thing.

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Speaker 1: And honestly, most folks aren't even aware of this, but

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Speaker 1: you have to thank PLWA for that and the folks

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Speaker 1: that came before us. That's pretty pretty cool. The mission

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Speaker 1: of the PLWA is to maintain and perpetuate access to

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Speaker 1: all of Montana's public lands and waters. So recently the

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Speaker 1: organizations really shifted a lot from more class extreme access

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Speaker 1: battles to over the last decade or so, really focusing

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Speaker 1: on issues with roads and public lands. And I'll let

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Speaker 1: Haley get into that. That's the primary reason Haley was hired.

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Speaker 1: It's just there's just this massive expansion of issues there.

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Speaker 1: But just last quick like big picture summary, the organization

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Speaker 1: is pretty small now. There's three staff. We got an

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Speaker 1: amazing board of We have nine board members, staff of three,

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Speaker 1: and we work on a big variety of issues, from

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Speaker 1: these things that Haley's going to describe, which I call

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Speaker 1: like our bread and butter access issues, where we have

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Speaker 1: hunters and fishers calling from all over the state telling

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Speaker 1: us about actual problems on the ground, to like some

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Speaker 1: of the bigger policy issues like the craziest which we'll

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Speaker 1: talk about later, and this upom suit with ELK we're

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Speaker 1: a party to that as well. So we kind of

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Speaker 1: do a mix of everything. And then yeah, but Haley,

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Speaker 1: I'll let you talk more about kind of the bread

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Speaker 1: and butter stuff if you want to.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, No, I think that's a great summary. Really, the yeah,

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Speaker 3: the bread and butter of PLWA is addressing access issues

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Speaker 3: that come into our organization. So in case folks don't know.

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Speaker 3: If you're here in Montana, you can actually go on

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Speaker 3: our website right now and report any access issues that

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Speaker 3: you encounter. That could be everything from illegal signage, a

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Speaker 3: gate that popped up on what you believe to be

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Speaker 3: a county or public road, high watermark issues. We've had

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Speaker 3: a lot of those coming in more recently, really anything

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Speaker 3: under the sun in the public access realm. And so

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Speaker 3: if you write it into us to me specifically, I'll

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Speaker 3: be contacting you for more information and then we can

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Speaker 3: get the ball rolling to try to get those things addressed.

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Speaker 3: So we work with the counties, we work with our

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Speaker 3: federal and state agencies, just trying to get these things,

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Speaker 3: these things resolved as quickly as possible. We have a

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Speaker 3: lot of access issues open right now that we are

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Speaker 3: working on. I look this morning, we actually have forty

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Speaker 3: three open access issues and just the state of Montana

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Speaker 3: right now. So a lot of work to be done,

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Speaker 3: but it's it's a great gig.

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Speaker 2: It is it's an important gig. And I would say

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Speaker 2: the way some of this stuff gets covered it the

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Speaker 2: importance isn't as known to the general public, So for

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Speaker 2: folks who aren't in the know, one of these public

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Speaker 2: access to public water issues battles at p l w

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Speaker 2: A was instrumental in fighting and bringing to the public's

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Speaker 2: attention most recently was sale Sailor S A. Y L. E. R.

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Speaker 2: Right down in the Ruby Valley, and that's our stream

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Speaker 2: access law allows the public to enter public water at

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Speaker 2: public county county roads where they crossed that water. In

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Speaker 2: this instance, a new landowner had erected fences and signage

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Speaker 2: claiming that that was trustpass and truspassers would be prosecuted.

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Speaker 2: And then that particular landowner was willing to try to

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Speaker 2: fight this trustpass issue all the way to the tippy

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Speaker 2: top the state Supreme Court, and had that individual one,

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Speaker 2: every other person on the planet would have lost access

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Speaker 2: to public water. So something that Montana's known for a

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Speaker 2: big chunk of our economies based on, in my opinion,

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Speaker 2: just you know, good old American freedom. So that's a

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Speaker 2: really really big one. But could you tell us about

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Speaker 2: I know, like here in Gallatin County, we just talked

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Speaker 2: about ease months recently with land trusts. Here there's a

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Speaker 2: lot of ease months being fought currently, public acts easements

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Speaker 2: being fought currently that PLWA is involved in.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and I think, like, let me give you an

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Speaker 1: example of something that like just comes in on a

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Speaker 1: daily basis, because I feel like it helps like the

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Speaker 1: mid Like we just recently and we get these very often.

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Speaker 1: I'm noticing I've only been on the job three weeks,

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Speaker 1: but we've already received a couple of these calls. One

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Speaker 1: of the things we really deal with frequently that involves easements.

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Speaker 1: Almost everything we deal with, Ryan involves Easeman's honestly, like,

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Speaker 1: almost all the things we're talking about, whether it's stream

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Speaker 1: access or a road or the crazies, has an easement involved.

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Speaker 1: And so we recently had a call from an awesome

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Speaker 1: supporter near Miles City who had been using a county

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Speaker 1: road for elk hunting for a long time and a

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Speaker 1: new outfitter had come into the area and it could

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Speaker 1: been some landowners to start checking people as they came

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Speaker 1: by to access public land. So what I loved is

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Speaker 1: that individual calls up us right away. It's kind of

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Speaker 1: like Ghostbusters, like are you gonna call and it's going

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Speaker 1: to be Plwa and Haley who has dealt with this

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Speaker 1: so many times. I was so excited Ryan, because I'm

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Speaker 1: new I'm just like Oh yeah, that's just let's drive

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Speaker 1: over there, let's whatever. But you know, this happens so frequently,

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Speaker 1: which is unfortunate that PLWA has kind of a guidebook

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Speaker 1: kind of how we go through it. Hailey wrote a

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Speaker 1: really well worded letter to the county to kind of

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Speaker 1: let them know we're going to be watching them, and

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Speaker 1: we really expect that they'd follow, you know, the law

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Speaker 1: of the land. We had a lawyer review it, and

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Speaker 1: that's kind of the process. But there's no other group

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Speaker 1: that I know of in the state that is responding

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Speaker 1: to those things on an individual basis, which I think

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Speaker 1: makes us really unique. So hopefully that helps a little bit.

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Speaker 2: Could you expand on that just a little bit, So

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Speaker 2: why does it matter that landowners are checking people driving

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Speaker 2: on a county road?

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Speaker 1: Hailey, you want to explain that a little bit better.

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Speaker 1: You're so good at exploded the intricacies. I'm just a

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Speaker 1: twenty thousand foot person.

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Speaker 3: Sure, yeah, I think cal you kind of mentioned you know,

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Speaker 3: these like the sailor lane issue. This is a precedent

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Speaker 3: setting issue. So each access issue that we look at,

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Speaker 3: it could set precedent for something else down the road.

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Speaker 3: So we've seen many county roads, many different counties pop

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Speaker 3: up with a gate or have some sort of encroachment,

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Speaker 3: all which is against state law. So if we don't

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Speaker 3: address this quickly and then the county doesn't get involved

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Speaker 3: or the sheriff whoever needs to be there quickly, that

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Speaker 3: can remain gated or blocked, or there could be issues

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Speaker 3: of harassment on that, you know, in perpetuity until the

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Speaker 3: county is willing to deal with it. So applying a

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Speaker 3: little bit of pressure making sure that everybody's aware of

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Speaker 3: the state laws. A lot of what I do and

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Speaker 3: we do as an organization is educate folks on our

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Speaker 3: county laws and our state laws and our public access laws.

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Speaker 3: So that's a huge chunk of my work as well.

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Speaker 3: So it's just really important that we get these issues

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Speaker 3: in as quick as possible and we address them as

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Speaker 3: quick as possible in accordance with state laws, so that

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Speaker 3: these issues don't proliferate across the state.

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Speaker 2: And is it I guess how prolific is the action

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Speaker 2: of shutting down a county road.

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Speaker 3: I mean it's indirect violation of state law. So I mean,

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Speaker 3: if you're looking at access to a public land parcel

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Speaker 3: in this particular case, it was specifically during hunting season.

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Speaker 3: So you have a lot of hunters and folks that

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Speaker 3: are trying to go out and visit their public lands

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Speaker 3: that are now having issues of harassment, having to meet

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Speaker 3: with the sheriff, you know, being blocked from their public

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Speaker 3: lands and their ability to recreate and hunt on their

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Speaker 3: public lands.

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Speaker 1: And one of the reasons Ryan that we had to

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Speaker 1: that Haley was hired, and she knows this better than

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Speaker 1: me because I wasn't even there yet. I was just

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Speaker 1: reading the newsletters at the time, was because of an

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Speaker 1: uptick in issues, and you know that your podcast listeners

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Speaker 1: know that as well as the changing land demographics in

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Speaker 1: the West continue to kind of that continues to uptick,

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Speaker 1: and we have changing ownership and folks that are more

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Speaker 1: interested in monetizing elk instead of like you know, raising Hey,

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Speaker 1: it's just really it changed. I think a lot of dynamics. Also.

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Speaker 1: Elk have moved, especially in Montana, into eastern parts of

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Speaker 1: the states where where you and I were a kid,

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Speaker 1: they weren't even there. So that's just changed dynamics a

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Speaker 1: lot of these areas too, I think, and Haley tell

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Speaker 1: me if I'm wrong there too, but I think that's

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Speaker 1: a lot of what we've dealt with recently has been

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Speaker 1: things that have been related to just changing land ownership.

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Speaker 3: Absolutely, yeah, and a lack of knowledge about our public

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Speaker 3: access laws. So I think a lot of folks come

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Speaker 3: in and they buy their little piece of paradise and

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Speaker 3: they don't want to see the recreating public at the

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Speaker 3: end park at the end of their driveway, even if

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Speaker 3: that isn't a public right of way. We are seeing

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Speaker 3: an increase in that, so definitely a lot more access

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Speaker 3: complaints over the last few years.

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Speaker 2: How much of this can we just blame on the

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Speaker 2: real estate agents.

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Speaker 3: That's a great question. I'm sure eventually that'll come back around,

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Speaker 3: but right now not the focus.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I have a lot of friends who are are

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Speaker 2: real estate agents, so that's not a barb out there.

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Speaker 2: It's an inside joke that I probably should quit telling.

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Speaker 2: But that is something that always comes up when people

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Speaker 2: decide to take action in blocking access. They like to

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Speaker 2: be able to default back and say, oh, well, I

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Speaker 2: just didn't know.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, And that's one of the problems, and that's

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Speaker 1: why our organization is so important, though, is the burden

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Speaker 1: is kind of on the public, which is one of

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Speaker 1: the problems right, Like the burden is on us to

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Speaker 1: prove to the county that it's a public road. I mean,

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Speaker 1: if you're a county commissioner and you're not an expert

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Speaker 1: in roads and you have some land owner who's like

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Speaker 1: a long term constituent who's coming to you and telling

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Speaker 1: you this is their road, I mean again, it kind

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Speaker 1: of it puts people in an interesting spot. So I

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Speaker 1: think that's why the PLWA is so important, is that

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Speaker 1: someone has to be you know, the in between and

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Speaker 1: do the vetting.

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Speaker 2: For sure. Absolutely, and it is so difficult as just

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Speaker 2: a recreating member of the public to go out and

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Speaker 2: stop what you're doing, stop your hunting season, and go, oh,

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Speaker 2: I have this confrontation instead of just going the hard

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Speaker 2: way around and continuing on and trying to enjoy my

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Speaker 2: hunting season, I need to stop and address this issue

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Speaker 2: because it's only going to get worse. It's a tough

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Speaker 2: thing where the aggressor really does have the upper hand.

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Speaker 2: We just don't want to deal with it.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. Absolutely, and we're seeing that more and more, especially

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Speaker 3: issues anglers as well. In the High water Mark. We're

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Speaker 3: seeing an uptick in those sorts of complaints and we're

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Speaker 3: finding that it really has fallen on the public. The

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Speaker 3: burden is on the public to prove that they are

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Speaker 3: in the right and accessing that waterway via the high

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Speaker 3: water mark and a public right of way or a

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Speaker 3: bridge abutment. It really is falling on the burdens falling

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Speaker 3: on them to prove that they're in the right.

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Speaker 1: And honestly, think about too, that's an interesting point, right

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Speaker 1: because Haley, think about how many of our members and

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Speaker 1: board members came on because of an access issue, Like

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Speaker 1: several of our board members are still dealing with ongoing

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Speaker 1: access issues that kind of brought them into our organization.

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Speaker 1: So I think it is becoming a lot more abiquitous.

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Speaker 1: And maybe that's also why Haley has been working on

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Speaker 1: this amazing reporting application that we have that at some

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Speaker 1: point we should talk about too, because that's going to

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Speaker 1: be that's going to change the game for us a

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Speaker 1: little bit as well, just make it We're going to

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Speaker 1: make it easier to report access complaints in Montana.

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Speaker 2: Essentially, what what would be a you know, a one

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Speaker 2: two three step of what any member of the public

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Speaker 2: should do if they find themselves in a contested situation

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Speaker 2: on a road or a trail or a parking spot.

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Speaker 3: My first my first advice would be to contact the

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Speaker 3: authority that would oversee that. So whether that's a federal

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Speaker 3: agency or f t b P, law enforcement or game warden,

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Speaker 3: you know, any any whoever would be in charge of that.

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Speaker 3: If it's a county road, your county commissioners or your

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Speaker 3: county sheriff, So contact those folks, see what they have

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Speaker 3: to say about it, and then of course reach out

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Speaker 3: to so right now, on our website, if you go on,

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Speaker 3: we have an access issue reporting system and it has

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Speaker 3: a form right on there where you can report to

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Speaker 3: us the date and time, the location you're at, anybody

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Speaker 3: you spoke with about the issue, and what their feedback was. Eventually,

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Speaker 3: we're actually working on putting that into an app, so

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Speaker 3: folks will be able to do that directly in the

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Speaker 3: field as they're encountering an access issue, which will be

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Speaker 3: extremely It will help us to really streamline the process

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Speaker 3: of getting these access issues in and start working towards

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Speaker 3: the resolution. But yeah, if you're out in the field

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Speaker 3: and you run into this, make sure you know you

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Speaker 3: have your location. That's awesome. If you can pull up

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Speaker 3: some coordinates, that's always super helpful, especially for when it

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Speaker 3: comes to reporting time. And then yeah, pictures are great.

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Speaker 3: Take pictures of everything around you, any signage, any gates,

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Speaker 3: and then just take note of any conversations or confrontations

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Speaker 3: you have. It's best if you are in a confrontation,

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Speaker 3: I would try to get you know, remove yourself from

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Speaker 3: that situation as quickly as possible, and then contact whatever

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Speaker 3: authority can you think could be most helpful in that area.

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Speaker 2: So we have county roads that come into contention seasonally.

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Speaker 2: Some of these roads certainly look like they've been abandoned.

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Speaker 2: We have these old county road bridges that have you know,

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Speaker 2: barbed wire fence up to the very top of them

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Speaker 2: that don't look like a very welcoming place to access

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Speaker 2: River corridor. And those ones are things that I think

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Speaker 2: we'll be dealing with for a long time and they're

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Speaker 2: going to keep coming up. But what about this big

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Speaker 2: multi use crazy mountain issue that's I hesitate to say

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Speaker 2: it's going on right now because it's been going on

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Speaker 2: for a really long time. Can you guys tell us

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Speaker 2: a little bit more about that, because I know that

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Speaker 2: the clock kind of the clocks taking on getting the

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Speaker 2: public voice in on access once again, on the Crazy Mountains.

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Speaker 1: And maybe I can start like we did before Hayley,

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Speaker 1: with the big picture and then you can dive in.

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Speaker 1: Does that work?

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Speaker 3: Sure?

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Speaker 1: Okay, so great point, Ryan, Do you want me to

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Speaker 1: I'll just give you like a try to give a

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Speaker 1: super basic overview. So PLWA, as well as a ton

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Speaker 1: of other groups including VHA, Montana Wildlife Federation, Park County

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Speaker 1: Environmental Council and others, have really been tracking this for

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Speaker 1: a long time. And what you're referring to, obviously is

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Speaker 1: this East Crazy Inspiration divide land exchange. It's occurring. So

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Speaker 1: the Crazy Mountains is for those that are aware, the

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Speaker 1: whole Mountain range has a lot of issues with this

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Speaker 1: thing that we call checkerboarding. And I'm sure most of

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Speaker 1: your listeners know what that is, but let me just

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Speaker 1: explain it because I was at dinner last night and

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Speaker 1: no one knew what I was talking about. And checkerboarding

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Speaker 1: just refers to the fact that when the West especially

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Speaker 1: was surveyed by the US government, they split things up

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Speaker 1: into squares, and most of those squares were in square

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Speaker 1: miles and as a kind of distributed land amongst the

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Speaker 1: public and different entities, especially in the Crazy Mountains. The

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Speaker 1: Railroad has granted a lot of different sections all the

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Speaker 1: way into the Crazy Mountains. So what you see is

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Speaker 1: the land ownership pattern of the Crazy Mountains is little boxes,

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Speaker 1: square boxes of green representing Forest Service and square boxes

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Speaker 1: of white representing private land. And that has been an

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Speaker 1: issue in the Crazy Mountains since that occurred really for

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Speaker 1: land management for the Forest Service and for some of

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Speaker 1: the private in holdings as well. Very recently, not not

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Speaker 1: that recently, but over the last ten years, there have

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Speaker 1: been multiple, actually twenty years, there's been multiple attempts to

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Speaker 1: kind of consolidate some of that checkerboard property. And currently

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Speaker 1: the Forest Service is working to consolidate a ton on

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Speaker 1: the east side of the Crazies, and POWA has been

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Speaker 1: really opposed to this proposal since it became a little

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Speaker 1: bit more public more recently. So the Forest Service started

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Speaker 1: this process a long time ago. They held working group

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Speaker 1: meetings which PLWA was not a part of, but other

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Speaker 1: groups were on. Then about two or three years ago

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Speaker 1: they released an EA and environmental assessment with an actual

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Speaker 1: proposal to do a land exchange. And one of the

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Speaker 1: things that's really interesting about this land exchange is that

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Speaker 1: involves the Yellowstone Club, which is a very large entity,

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Speaker 1: economic engine in Big Sky and they have a lot

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Speaker 1: of money, and one of the things they're trying to

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Speaker 1: do is they went to the Forest Service and said, hey,

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Speaker 1: we'd like to expand some of our ski operations. What

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Speaker 1: do you need And this was like twenty fifteen, and

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Speaker 1: the Forest Service went back to the l Sun Club

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Speaker 1: and said, hey, we'd really love some help with some

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Speaker 1: of this checkerboard on the east side of the Crazies.

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Speaker 1: So the Yellow Sun Club hired a consulting firm and

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Speaker 1: they've been working with the Forest Service and private landholders

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Speaker 1: to negotiate a land exchange that involves land near Big

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Speaker 1: Sky and land in the Crazies, which is over one

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Speaker 1: hundred miles away as their Crowfly is so same forests,

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Speaker 1: they're really far apart, so that land that environmental assessment

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Speaker 1: came out. PLWA and a ton of other groups opposed

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Speaker 1: a lot of the intricacies of that deal and what

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Speaker 1: was kind of set in that assessment. They held an

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Speaker 1: objectioners meeting recently. Haley and the former executive director were

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Speaker 1: there with a ton of other groups and kind of

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Speaker 1: there was a lot of concerns that were voiced to

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Speaker 1: the US for a service. They're kind of moving ahead

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Speaker 1: right now with the whole bureaucratic process of getting this

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Speaker 1: thing approved. And right now it is before Congress, and

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Speaker 1: the Congressional Appropriations Committee has to vote yeay or nay

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Speaker 1: on approving this deal. So that's kind of why it's

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Speaker 1: April third is the deadline. We're kind of getting down

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Speaker 1: to the wire and we're trying to get folks to

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Speaker 1: comment on it. So it's really complex, and I don't

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Speaker 1: know if that was a good enough job at simplifying it,

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Speaker 1: but I was trying to do it pretty quickly. Ailey,

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Speaker 1: I don't want to get into the weeds too much,

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Speaker 1: but do you have anything else to kind of fill

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Speaker 1: in on big picture stuff?

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Speaker 3: I would just add that, you know, I do think

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Speaker 3: we acknowledge there are some benefits to solidating these lands.

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Speaker 3: It's just the way that it's been done. There's been

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Speaker 3: so much opposition to this from US, from other organizations,

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Speaker 3: from our members, from other folks that aren't affiliated with

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Speaker 3: any of these organizations. There's just an overwhelming amount of

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Speaker 3: opposition that has fell on Deaf years. So it's our

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Speaker 3: last chance to get the word out and let the

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Speaker 3: public's voice be heard. And so yeah, any way that

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Speaker 3: folks can get involved, whether it's with us or other

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Speaker 3: organizations that they're a part of, would be a tremendous help.

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Speaker 2: Well, I want to get into how to get involved,

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Speaker 2: for sure, but can we talk more about from the

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Speaker 2: access perspective, what's the benefit here and what's the big negative?

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Speaker 2: And you know from Montana, anything that says Yellowstone Club

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Speaker 2: I don't want to be in association with or in

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Speaker 2: favor of. But if you could take that away and

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Speaker 2: just say here's here's the benefit and here's the negative

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Speaker 2: of this situation, what are.

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Speaker 1: They Well, that's a very complicated question, as you do,

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Speaker 1: but let me start Hailey, and then you can please

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Speaker 1: correct me, because Haley's been doing this so much longer. Ryan,

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Speaker 1: You're right, there are some benefits, and we recognize that

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Speaker 1: I used to work for the Forest Service. A lot

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Speaker 1: of our authority used to work for the Forest Service.

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Speaker 1: Those in holdings are really tough to manage. We understand

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Speaker 1: that there's been long standing problems. I guess the biggest

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Speaker 1: issue we have is that the negotiated agreement really does

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Speaker 1: limit some public easements and public access abilities that you

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Speaker 1: just were never going to get back. So I don't

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Speaker 1: know if you've been up sweet Grass Creek. That drainage

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Speaker 1: is amazing. And one of the big problems that our

435
00:23:44,240 --> 00:23:46,320
Speaker 1: organization has had with this is that the Forest Service

436
00:23:46,400 --> 00:23:49,440
Speaker 1: is just giving up trails and easements in that drainage,

437
00:23:49,720 --> 00:23:52,399
Speaker 1: and the public access into that drainage is going to

438
00:23:52,400 --> 00:23:54,640
Speaker 1: be severely restricted. It's going to require a what twenty

439
00:23:54,680 --> 00:23:56,840
Speaker 1: two mile hike to get in there, Hailey after this

440
00:23:57,000 --> 00:23:59,760
Speaker 1: if this land exchange goes through, and that's something we're

441
00:23:59,760 --> 00:24:02,600
Speaker 1: really concerned about. And I think it's, you know, the

442
00:24:02,640 --> 00:24:06,359
Speaker 1: way that these negotiations occur. It's the entities. It's the

443
00:24:06,400 --> 00:24:09,480
Speaker 1: Forest Service, the Yellowsunge Club, and the private land owners

444
00:24:09,520 --> 00:24:12,840
Speaker 1: all negotiating a land exchange for very good reasons. The

445
00:24:12,840 --> 00:24:14,879
Speaker 1: public is not part of that process. But that also

446
00:24:14,960 --> 00:24:17,199
Speaker 1: creates an issue, right because they come up with this

447
00:24:17,280 --> 00:24:19,760
Speaker 1: agreement privately and then they give it to us as

448
00:24:19,880 --> 00:24:21,639
Speaker 1: kind of this is the way it is. And I

449
00:24:21,680 --> 00:24:23,520
Speaker 1: think that's one of the problems with this is that

450
00:24:24,000 --> 00:24:28,119
Speaker 1: the public's yes, the valuation on the land comes out equally,

451
00:24:28,119 --> 00:24:30,120
Speaker 1: and it checks the boxes for the federal government when

452
00:24:30,160 --> 00:24:34,000
Speaker 1: it comes to access to Montana's lands and waters. We're

453
00:24:34,040 --> 00:24:37,680
Speaker 1: losing out on quality for sure if this goes through

454
00:24:38,080 --> 00:24:39,960
Speaker 1: so aily anything else.

455
00:24:39,800 --> 00:24:42,960
Speaker 3: To add, I would just add that the I guess

456
00:24:43,000 --> 00:24:46,160
Speaker 3: the benefit as I see it, is that decades worth

457
00:24:46,320 --> 00:24:50,920
Speaker 3: of contentious arguments are going to disappear over those those

458
00:24:51,520 --> 00:24:56,480
Speaker 3: checkerboard parcels. So, especially at the sweet Grass Drainage, we

459
00:24:56,960 --> 00:24:59,560
Speaker 3: don't have access right now. We haven't had it in

460
00:24:59,560 --> 00:25:03,600
Speaker 3: many manys, many years because it's been what we would

461
00:25:03,600 --> 00:25:06,800
Speaker 3: consider a prescriptive use. So folks, there's a historical use

462
00:25:06,880 --> 00:25:10,359
Speaker 3: up there, and historically the Forest Service has said that

463
00:25:10,440 --> 00:25:14,680
Speaker 3: they would fight for those prescriptive use easements. It doesn't

464
00:25:14,680 --> 00:25:17,159
Speaker 3: become an easement unless we take it to court improve it.

465
00:25:17,800 --> 00:25:21,200
Speaker 3: But however, the fore Service has kind of changed their

466
00:25:21,240 --> 00:25:23,679
Speaker 3: tune on that. A gate went up at the end

467
00:25:23,680 --> 00:25:26,840
Speaker 3: of sweet Grass, the Forest Service started signing in and

468
00:25:26,880 --> 00:25:30,119
Speaker 3: that started the five year mark according to our state laws,

469
00:25:30,200 --> 00:25:33,080
Speaker 3: saying that we have five years to prove prescriptive access

470
00:25:33,440 --> 00:25:36,120
Speaker 3: or that access goes away. So I think our biggest

471
00:25:36,119 --> 00:25:41,000
Speaker 3: concern again is there are documented easements. There's public trail

472
00:25:41,040 --> 00:25:43,560
Speaker 3: miles there in sweet Grass Drainage, and all of that

473
00:25:43,600 --> 00:25:47,080
Speaker 3: will disappear. If this deal goes forward.

474
00:25:46,880 --> 00:25:50,680
Speaker 2: And I guess where's the is there a balance? Are

475
00:25:50,680 --> 00:25:56,919
Speaker 2: we going to gain more access in other areas? Where's

476
00:25:56,960 --> 00:25:58,399
Speaker 2: the swap part come in?

477
00:25:59,160 --> 00:26:02,280
Speaker 1: So the overall, So the Forest Services website is great.

478
00:26:02,280 --> 00:26:04,960
Speaker 1: If you type in the inspiration Divide Land Exchange, it

479
00:26:05,000 --> 00:26:07,000
Speaker 1: pops up right away and it'll explain to you kind

480
00:26:07,040 --> 00:26:09,960
Speaker 1: of what the parcels are. But I mean in this

481
00:26:10,200 --> 00:26:12,040
Speaker 1: a lot of the other groups of comment on this tune,

482
00:26:12,040 --> 00:26:15,160
Speaker 1: I think we agree as well. It's like what's being

483
00:26:15,240 --> 00:26:18,840
Speaker 1: traded is the actual acreage is going to increase for

484
00:26:18,880 --> 00:26:21,280
Speaker 1: the public land acreage as part of this deal. But

485
00:26:21,359 --> 00:26:23,600
Speaker 1: the quality of the land that we're receiving is part

486
00:26:23,600 --> 00:26:26,280
Speaker 1: of the deal that we're giving away is just inequitable, right.

487
00:26:26,320 --> 00:26:28,679
Speaker 1: So the public parcels that are being given away, some

488
00:26:28,720 --> 00:26:30,760
Speaker 1: of them are in the bottom lands. Some of those

489
00:26:30,840 --> 00:26:33,679
Speaker 1: are prime lk hunting habitat. We're talking about the bottom

490
00:26:33,680 --> 00:26:36,040
Speaker 1: of speak Grass Creek, which if you look up on

491
00:26:36,119 --> 00:26:40,760
Speaker 1: Google Maps, it's like this amazing drainage. It's very wild,

492
00:26:40,920 --> 00:26:44,719
Speaker 1: it's very flashy, it's got amazing cutthroat population. So I

493
00:26:44,720 --> 00:26:48,760
Speaker 1: think like there may be a benefit to public land acreage,

494
00:26:48,760 --> 00:26:51,359
Speaker 1: but it's a lot of rock, and we're giving up

495
00:26:51,400 --> 00:26:54,880
Speaker 1: a lot of really prime riparian habitat and primal habitat

496
00:26:54,960 --> 00:26:57,199
Speaker 1: down lower. And if you look at the Forest Service website,

497
00:26:57,240 --> 00:26:58,960
Speaker 1: you can see the parcels that are being exchanged. You

498
00:26:59,000 --> 00:27:00,920
Speaker 1: can see the lower parcels that are being given up.

499
00:27:01,400 --> 00:27:05,399
Speaker 1: And then also Joseph Bullington wrote an amazing article and

500
00:27:05,560 --> 00:27:07,439
Speaker 1: he had someone do these maps that just kind of

501
00:27:07,480 --> 00:27:09,959
Speaker 1: show what's happening. Let do a really good job illustrating

502
00:27:10,119 --> 00:27:13,479
Speaker 1: what's going on and what the public's losing as a

503
00:27:13,480 --> 00:27:14,400
Speaker 1: results of this deal.

504
00:27:15,040 --> 00:27:19,320
Speaker 2: And proponent wise, you said, you know, there's seems to

505
00:27:19,359 --> 00:27:23,920
Speaker 2: be a large coalition now opposing this lance swap. Who's

506
00:27:25,440 --> 00:27:27,879
Speaker 2: on the proponent side of the lance swap?

507
00:27:28,960 --> 00:27:32,760
Speaker 1: The Forest Service is very it's been pushing this forward, right,

508
00:27:32,760 --> 00:27:35,000
Speaker 1: They've like you did a great job asking us about

509
00:27:35,040 --> 00:27:37,480
Speaker 1: that earlier, Ryan and being the devil's advocate, like they

510
00:27:37,480 --> 00:27:41,520
Speaker 1: have had issues in this mountain range for a century,

511
00:27:41,600 --> 00:27:44,920
Speaker 1: so they are very they're a very big proponent of this. Obviously,

512
00:27:44,960 --> 00:27:47,560
Speaker 1: the Yellowstone Club is a big proponent, as are the

513
00:27:47,600 --> 00:27:49,359
Speaker 1: local landowners involved in the deal.

514
00:27:50,160 --> 00:27:54,560
Speaker 2: And so obviously if Yellowstone Clubs involved, there has got

515
00:27:54,560 --> 00:28:01,880
Speaker 2: to be some amount of development plan for this area, right.

516
00:28:02,280 --> 00:28:05,000
Speaker 1: Not really for the Crazies. The plan development is for

517
00:28:05,240 --> 00:28:07,919
Speaker 1: the Inspiration Divide area, not the Inspiration Divider, but the

518
00:28:07,920 --> 00:28:10,679
Speaker 1: parcel that they're going to receive close to their operations

519
00:28:10,680 --> 00:28:13,560
Speaker 1: where they're going to be expanding some of their ski operations,

520
00:28:13,880 --> 00:28:15,000
Speaker 1: so that'd be up by a big sky.

521
00:28:15,720 --> 00:28:17,679
Speaker 3: And I think another point to add is in this

522
00:28:17,760 --> 00:28:21,560
Speaker 3: agreement there are mention of conservation easements on these parcels

523
00:28:21,560 --> 00:28:25,240
Speaker 3: that are being slapped, but there's no really stipulations laid

524
00:28:25,280 --> 00:28:28,240
Speaker 3: out or requirements per se. And we saw this on

525
00:28:28,280 --> 00:28:30,760
Speaker 3: the west side of the Crazies when they consolidated land

526
00:28:30,760 --> 00:28:32,719
Speaker 3: over there as well. You know, it was part of

527
00:28:32,760 --> 00:28:37,120
Speaker 3: the initial agreement and proposal. However, when we went back

528
00:28:37,160 --> 00:28:39,320
Speaker 3: and tried to look to see if those concert conservation

529
00:28:39,400 --> 00:28:42,800
Speaker 3: easements ever came to be, we didn't find any. So

530
00:28:43,320 --> 00:28:47,320
Speaker 3: as far as development, you know, there's an argument saying that,

531
00:28:47,600 --> 00:28:50,440
Speaker 3: well know there will be some conservation easements involved, I

532
00:28:50,440 --> 00:28:52,600
Speaker 3: don't know who will be enforcing that once this land

533
00:28:52,600 --> 00:28:54,240
Speaker 3: exchange happens, and.

534
00:28:54,240 --> 00:28:58,640
Speaker 2: Are they going to be conservation ease months that provide

535
00:28:58,680 --> 00:29:03,960
Speaker 2: access to the public too is a question mark and yeah, exactly,

536
00:29:04,040 --> 00:29:06,719
Speaker 2: like when when can we expect them?

537
00:29:07,040 --> 00:29:08,040
Speaker 3: Right? Absolutely?

538
00:29:08,720 --> 00:29:11,280
Speaker 1: Yeah, And conservation easements are not made equally, as we

539
00:29:11,280 --> 00:29:12,960
Speaker 1: all know too, right. And that was the other thing

540
00:29:13,040 --> 00:29:16,360
Speaker 1: is that that there was very soft requirements around it.

541
00:29:16,400 --> 00:29:18,960
Speaker 1: And that's such an interesting point too, right, because like

542
00:29:19,640 --> 00:29:23,120
Speaker 1: when we receive something, right, when the public receives acreage,

543
00:29:23,120 --> 00:29:24,960
Speaker 1: we're never going to develop it, right, So that's like

544
00:29:25,000 --> 00:29:26,960
Speaker 1: a monetary value the public is never going to be

545
00:29:26,960 --> 00:29:30,640
Speaker 1: able to see. But during as part of this land exchange,

546
00:29:31,080 --> 00:29:33,080
Speaker 1: those folks that are receiving some of the bottom land

547
00:29:33,080 --> 00:29:35,480
Speaker 1: of Sweetgrass Creek, do you have the potent they already

548
00:29:35,480 --> 00:29:37,239
Speaker 1: have an operation there, they could develop some of that

549
00:29:37,680 --> 00:29:41,560
Speaker 1: unless there's appropriate conservation usements in place. So that's another

550
00:29:41,600 --> 00:29:44,400
Speaker 1: inequitable part of this whole I think deal is that

551
00:29:44,440 --> 00:29:47,240
Speaker 1: there's the ability for those folks that are getting public

552
00:29:47,280 --> 00:29:51,360
Speaker 1: property to change the future of that the way that

553
00:29:51,440 --> 00:29:52,320
Speaker 1: land has been managed.

554
00:29:52,840 --> 00:29:54,640
Speaker 2: So is it fair to say that there's still a

555
00:29:54,680 --> 00:29:57,640
Speaker 2: willingness to make a deal, is just not this deal?

556
00:29:58,640 --> 00:29:59,880
Speaker 1: Yes, I would say so.

557
00:30:00,920 --> 00:30:03,160
Speaker 3: I think we've always stood by the fact that if

558
00:30:03,160 --> 00:30:05,280
Speaker 3: we could work with the Fort Service to address the

559
00:30:05,320 --> 00:30:08,680
Speaker 3: issue of access in sweet Grass drainage, which unfortunately, maybe

560
00:30:08,720 --> 00:30:12,160
Speaker 3: the timelines run out on that, then we would you

561
00:30:12,400 --> 00:30:15,720
Speaker 3: be happy to get on board with them. I can't

562
00:30:15,760 --> 00:30:19,120
Speaker 3: speak for other organizations, but I do agree that there

563
00:30:19,160 --> 00:30:22,959
Speaker 3: are benefits to consolidating some of this land. It's just

564
00:30:23,000 --> 00:30:26,120
Speaker 3: that the public's voice isn't being heard on it. So

565
00:30:26,240 --> 00:30:29,000
Speaker 3: and unfortunately, none of the suggestions that have been made

566
00:30:29,000 --> 00:30:32,360
Speaker 3: in our opposition meetings have been taken into consideration. So

567
00:30:32,640 --> 00:30:35,080
Speaker 3: there really just hasn't been any change from beginning to

568
00:30:35,160 --> 00:30:36,320
Speaker 3: end of this process.

569
00:30:37,000 --> 00:30:44,320
Speaker 2: Got it. So, at this point in time, if folks

570
00:30:44,360 --> 00:30:48,000
Speaker 2: listening to this wanted to weigh in with their opinion

571
00:30:48,800 --> 00:30:53,120
Speaker 2: or learn more and then weigh in with their opinion,

572
00:30:54,360 --> 00:30:55,960
Speaker 2: where would they go and how would they go about

573
00:30:56,000 --> 00:30:56,440
Speaker 2: doing that?

574
00:30:57,960 --> 00:31:01,000
Speaker 1: So I would recommend you back on our website. If

575
00:31:01,000 --> 00:31:03,400
Speaker 1: you go to plwa's website, we have a link right

576
00:31:03,440 --> 00:31:06,040
Speaker 1: on the main page to our East Crazes information page,

577
00:31:06,040 --> 00:31:08,800
Speaker 1: which we're going to be updating adding some better images

578
00:31:08,800 --> 00:31:10,400
Speaker 1: to and a little bit better information on there. But

579
00:31:10,520 --> 00:31:12,400
Speaker 1: we have a wealth if you want to nerd out,

580
00:31:12,520 --> 00:31:14,240
Speaker 1: we have a wealth of information on there. If you

581
00:31:14,280 --> 00:31:15,800
Speaker 1: really want to dig in deep, which is what we

582
00:31:15,880 --> 00:31:20,720
Speaker 1: do typically, VHA has an amazing page on this as well.

583
00:31:20,760 --> 00:31:23,720
Speaker 1: They've been kind of partner and partner with us throughout

584
00:31:23,720 --> 00:31:25,800
Speaker 1: this whole process. They have a lot of awesome information

585
00:31:25,920 --> 00:31:27,920
Speaker 1: on their web page as well. But if you really

586
00:31:27,960 --> 00:31:30,440
Speaker 1: want to get involved, we have until April third to

587
00:31:30,480 --> 00:31:33,400
Speaker 1: try to let folks that are on the congressional appropriations

588
00:31:33,440 --> 00:31:35,920
Speaker 1: committees know that we are concerned about this and that

589
00:31:36,000 --> 00:31:39,360
Speaker 1: we're concerned about the equitability of this exchange. So on

590
00:31:39,400 --> 00:31:42,040
Speaker 1: our website you have contacts to at least Montana's delegation,

591
00:31:42,520 --> 00:31:46,040
Speaker 1: But if you're in another state, contact your senator, your representative,

592
00:31:46,080 --> 00:31:48,120
Speaker 1: if they're on the Appropriations committee, and let them know

593
00:31:48,600 --> 00:31:51,200
Speaker 1: this isn't cool because this is for service property. It's

594
00:31:51,200 --> 00:31:54,760
Speaker 1: not just Montanas that are losing out here. It's all

595
00:31:54,800 --> 00:31:55,760
Speaker 1: the recreating public.

596
00:31:56,120 --> 00:32:00,160
Speaker 2: So yeah, and for you folks that aren't quite sure

597
00:32:00,240 --> 00:32:03,200
Speaker 2: where this is, if you're one of those people that's

598
00:32:03,280 --> 00:32:07,920
Speaker 2: driven all I ninety like I have, when you you're

599
00:32:07,960 --> 00:32:10,360
Speaker 2: heading east out of bos Angelus, you finally make it

600
00:32:10,360 --> 00:32:12,360
Speaker 2: over the hill, you get out in the flat past

601
00:32:12,480 --> 00:32:16,480
Speaker 2: living Stone, and you look off to your north side,

602
00:32:16,560 --> 00:32:20,080
Speaker 2: your left hand side, and you go, holy shit, awesome

603
00:32:20,840 --> 00:32:23,400
Speaker 2: snow fields up on top it's probably like an eighty

604
00:32:23,440 --> 00:32:25,800
Speaker 2: degree day, and it's gorgeous and green in the valley,

605
00:32:26,320 --> 00:32:30,520
Speaker 2: and that island mountain range is called the Crazy Mountains,

606
00:32:30,920 --> 00:32:35,840
Speaker 2: and it's it's epic. It's it's unbelievably beautiful. And the

607
00:32:35,880 --> 00:32:41,000
Speaker 2: ability to access that thing is kind of brutal as well.

608
00:32:41,120 --> 00:32:45,840
Speaker 2: So access is getting more and more limited to a

609
00:32:45,920 --> 00:32:49,080
Speaker 2: really amazing place. But you can you can look it

610
00:32:49,160 --> 00:32:51,480
Speaker 2: up on the Google machine and and check it out.

611
00:32:51,520 --> 00:32:58,080
Speaker 2: It's it's really phenomenal. Has a possibly non native mountain

612
00:32:58,160 --> 00:33:03,440
Speaker 2: goat herd that they brought in with pack mules, lots

613
00:33:03,440 --> 00:33:07,080
Speaker 2: of elk, lots deer, lots of good fishing, lots of skiing.

614
00:33:07,680 --> 00:33:12,040
Speaker 2: It's a pretty unbelievable place on the public land road

615
00:33:12,080 --> 00:33:17,720
Speaker 2: map that we can't afford to lose out on. So, Jordan,

616
00:33:17,800 --> 00:33:18,880
Speaker 2: how you feel it.

617
00:33:22,560 --> 00:33:25,760
Speaker 1: Good? Yeah? That was that was great, guys. I appreciate it.

618
00:33:26,600 --> 00:33:29,160
Speaker 2: One thing I did want to ask, when someone writes

619
00:33:29,160 --> 00:33:32,000
Speaker 2: in and says they have an access issue, you don't

620
00:33:32,120 --> 00:33:34,240
Speaker 2: charge them to settle that?

621
00:33:35,160 --> 00:33:35,520
Speaker 1: Correct?

622
00:33:35,640 --> 00:33:37,520
Speaker 3: No, No, absolutely not.

623
00:33:39,160 --> 00:33:39,240
Speaker 1: No.

624
00:33:39,640 --> 00:33:42,160
Speaker 3: We use our resources to do the research. That's the

625
00:33:42,200 --> 00:33:44,400
Speaker 3: main main part of my job and why this role

626
00:33:44,520 --> 00:33:47,600
Speaker 3: was developed is to have somebody to go do the

627
00:33:47,640 --> 00:33:49,680
Speaker 3: work and do the research in the man hours to

628
00:33:49,720 --> 00:33:53,360
Speaker 3: figure out all the details and intricacies of an access issue.

629
00:33:53,960 --> 00:33:56,120
Speaker 3: And then yeah, no we don't. We don't charge folks.

630
00:33:56,200 --> 00:33:58,400
Speaker 3: I will point out, you know, we are there if

631
00:33:58,440 --> 00:34:01,320
Speaker 3: issues need to go towards to mitigation. But and maybe

632
00:34:01,360 --> 00:34:03,840
Speaker 3: Alex can correct me on this, it's far less than

633
00:34:03,840 --> 00:34:06,520
Speaker 3: ten percent of our cases end up down that road,

634
00:34:07,440 --> 00:34:09,680
Speaker 3: but we are there for that purpose.

635
00:34:09,320 --> 00:34:12,399
Speaker 1: As well, and that's what's I think it's amazing too.

636
00:34:12,400 --> 00:34:15,520
Speaker 1: We're all the memberships, Like our memberships and our donations

637
00:34:15,560 --> 00:34:17,239
Speaker 1: pay if it goes to court, so we don't ever

638
00:34:17,360 --> 00:34:20,560
Speaker 1: charge someone to represent them. Like if someone calls in,

639
00:34:21,480 --> 00:34:25,080
Speaker 1: we investigated obviously, especially if there's merit behind it. And

640
00:34:25,120 --> 00:34:27,239
Speaker 1: that's one of the awesome things about the organization is

641
00:34:27,239 --> 00:34:29,279
Speaker 1: it's like that, it's the folks you call when you

642
00:34:29,280 --> 00:34:32,840
Speaker 1: don't know what to do about an access issue. So yeah,

643
00:34:33,160 --> 00:34:36,359
Speaker 1: so I encourage you, if you live in Montana, become

644
00:34:36,360 --> 00:34:36,760
Speaker 1: a member.

645
00:34:37,239 --> 00:34:39,000
Speaker 3: Please, we'd love to have you.

646
00:34:39,840 --> 00:34:44,680
Speaker 2: Absolutely become a member. It's literally the reason why people

647
00:34:44,719 --> 00:34:49,239
Speaker 2: come to the state is what PLWA is fighting for.

648
00:34:49,360 --> 00:34:52,280
Speaker 2: So find them on the website, find them on social media,

649
00:34:52,719 --> 00:34:55,040
Speaker 2: become a member, throw a couple of bucks their way,

650
00:34:55,400 --> 00:35:00,640
Speaker 2: and we in on this crazy mountain access issue and

651
00:35:01,200 --> 00:35:05,720
Speaker 2: we'll have more info on the ascal part of the website,

652
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Speaker 2: I imagine.

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Speaker 3: So thank you guys, very much.

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Speaker 1: Thank you so much, appreciate it. M