1 00:00:00,040 --> 00:00:02,599 Speaker 1: Hey, y'all, Eves here. We're doubling up today with two 2 00:00:02,640 --> 00:00:06,960 Speaker 1: events in history on with the show. Welcome to this 3 00:00:07,040 --> 00:00:10,600 Speaker 1: day in History class. I'm Eves. And it's the last 4 00:00:10,720 --> 00:00:13,560 Speaker 1: day of March, which means it's also the last day 5 00:00:13,560 --> 00:00:16,119 Speaker 1: of Women's History Month. And this month we've brought on 6 00:00:16,239 --> 00:00:19,120 Speaker 1: a lot of special guests to celebrate Women's History Month, 7 00:00:19,239 --> 00:00:21,880 Speaker 1: and today we'll be doing the same. We'll be talking 8 00:00:21,880 --> 00:00:24,919 Speaker 1: about the Motion Picture Production Code, which is also known 9 00:00:25,040 --> 00:00:28,160 Speaker 1: as the Hayes Code, and that was ratified on March 10 00:00:28,320 --> 00:00:32,120 Speaker 1: thirty one, nineteen thirty The Hayes Code was this set 11 00:00:32,120 --> 00:00:36,440 Speaker 1: of guidelines that subjected American films to moral censorship. And 12 00:00:36,520 --> 00:00:38,960 Speaker 1: you might be thinking, what does that have to do 13 00:00:39,040 --> 00:00:43,120 Speaker 1: with the celebration of women's history, But our guest today, 14 00:00:43,320 --> 00:00:47,320 Speaker 1: Dr Nora Gilbert, has shown that censorship did have benefits 15 00:00:47,320 --> 00:00:50,680 Speaker 1: for women. Hi, Norah, how are you. I'm good? How 16 00:00:50,720 --> 00:00:54,240 Speaker 1: are you doing? I'm good? Good. So, Um, I'm really 17 00:00:54,280 --> 00:00:57,560 Speaker 1: really excited to talk to you today. I honestly never thought, 18 00:00:58,240 --> 00:01:00,120 Speaker 1: never thought about this angle to the Hayes Code or 19 00:01:00,120 --> 00:01:03,760 Speaker 1: two censorship in general until I saw your work. So 20 00:01:03,880 --> 00:01:08,880 Speaker 1: I'm just really so if you could just start off 21 00:01:08,880 --> 00:01:12,520 Speaker 1: by briefly breaking down what exactly the motion picture Production 22 00:01:12,560 --> 00:01:16,360 Speaker 1: Code is and what it did. M okay, So a 23 00:01:16,400 --> 00:01:19,479 Speaker 1: lot of people talk about pre code Hollywood and postcode 24 00:01:19,480 --> 00:01:22,200 Speaker 1: Hollywood and what they usually are meeting by that is 25 00:01:22,600 --> 00:01:25,160 Speaker 1: a breaking point that happened in nineteen thirty four when 26 00:01:25,200 --> 00:01:28,039 Speaker 1: a guy named Joseph Breen came and took over what 27 00:01:28,160 --> 00:01:30,400 Speaker 1: had already been in place for four years by that point, 28 00:01:30,640 --> 00:01:34,160 Speaker 1: which was the production code UM and he was the 29 00:01:34,160 --> 00:01:36,240 Speaker 1: one who really enforced it in a new way, and 30 00:01:36,280 --> 00:01:37,800 Speaker 1: a lot of people think of that as the time 31 00:01:37,840 --> 00:01:40,520 Speaker 1: was the code really got its teeth. But originally, back 32 00:01:40,560 --> 00:01:44,160 Speaker 1: in nineteen thirty this is something that came about because 33 00:01:44,319 --> 00:01:47,120 Speaker 1: the motion picture industry did not want to have to 34 00:01:47,160 --> 00:01:51,120 Speaker 1: deal with legal censorship, so censorship at the state and 35 00:01:51,240 --> 00:01:53,600 Speaker 1: local levels, where people could just watch a movie and 36 00:01:53,600 --> 00:01:55,480 Speaker 1: say we're not going to screen it, we we censor it. 37 00:01:55,480 --> 00:01:57,160 Speaker 1: We're going to take out this scene, we're gonna take 38 00:01:57,160 --> 00:01:59,919 Speaker 1: out these words, and legally people could do that pretty 39 00:02:00,000 --> 00:02:03,520 Speaker 1: easily in nineteen thirty because motion pictures were not considered 40 00:02:03,560 --> 00:02:05,680 Speaker 1: to be covered under the First Amendment, because they have 41 00:02:05,680 --> 00:02:08,560 Speaker 1: been ruled in nineteen fifteen that Hollywood is just a 42 00:02:08,560 --> 00:02:10,960 Speaker 1: big business and it's not really art, so we don't 43 00:02:11,000 --> 00:02:13,839 Speaker 1: have to protect it in the same way that other 44 00:02:13,880 --> 00:02:16,959 Speaker 1: kinds of artists were protected, so they could sensor anything 45 00:02:16,960 --> 00:02:20,240 Speaker 1: they wanted. So the Hollywood producers and filmmakers said, what 46 00:02:20,280 --> 00:02:22,600 Speaker 1: are we gonna do to avoid this, because there are 47 00:02:22,600 --> 00:02:25,080 Speaker 1: a lot of protest groups that were complaining, especially in 48 00:02:25,080 --> 00:02:29,079 Speaker 1: the nineteen twenties during the kind of scandalous flapper era, 49 00:02:29,280 --> 00:02:31,720 Speaker 1: kind of you know, Prohibition era, but when things are 50 00:02:31,760 --> 00:02:34,680 Speaker 1: kind of silent, pictures were getting kind of uh, you know, 51 00:02:34,680 --> 00:02:36,680 Speaker 1: their naked bodies on screen. There was a lot of 52 00:02:36,680 --> 00:02:39,200 Speaker 1: illifit sex going on in the screen and a lot 53 00:02:39,200 --> 00:02:41,480 Speaker 1: of drinking, and they didn't like that during Prohibition. So 54 00:02:41,520 --> 00:02:44,320 Speaker 1: they wanted to um find a way for the movies 55 00:02:44,400 --> 00:02:48,880 Speaker 1: to be made more socially acceptable and more financially lucrative. 56 00:02:48,880 --> 00:02:51,280 Speaker 1: Because another thing to point out is that the stock 57 00:02:51,320 --> 00:02:54,120 Speaker 1: market crash, of course, happens in nine and it's right 58 00:02:54,200 --> 00:02:58,160 Speaker 1: after that that the first production code UM is composed 59 00:02:58,160 --> 00:03:00,800 Speaker 1: and put into place, because they're really try trying to 60 00:03:00,840 --> 00:03:03,760 Speaker 1: appease their New York Wall Street backers and say we're 61 00:03:03,760 --> 00:03:07,320 Speaker 1: going to make movies as financially recruitive as possible, because 62 00:03:07,320 --> 00:03:09,760 Speaker 1: we'll make them so they're safe for everyone, so everyone 63 00:03:09,800 --> 00:03:12,560 Speaker 1: could go see these movies. So in nineteen thirty, this 64 00:03:12,600 --> 00:03:15,720 Speaker 1: group of a few Catholic men got together and they said, 65 00:03:15,720 --> 00:03:18,519 Speaker 1: we're going to make this list. And it's a very 66 00:03:18,560 --> 00:03:21,360 Speaker 1: comprehensive list. It has a bunch of for you know, 67 00:03:21,400 --> 00:03:24,679 Speaker 1: it has its general principles, and then it's particular applications 68 00:03:24,760 --> 00:03:27,720 Speaker 1: and then just pages and pages of kind of defending 69 00:03:28,520 --> 00:03:31,160 Speaker 1: why they are objecting to the things they are and 70 00:03:31,200 --> 00:03:34,680 Speaker 1: it's very you know, broad ranging and get very specific 71 00:03:34,720 --> 00:03:37,440 Speaker 1: about certain things, but then also just talks some mofty 72 00:03:37,600 --> 00:03:41,320 Speaker 1: terms about how they're going to save movies for America. 73 00:03:41,480 --> 00:03:44,240 Speaker 1: And so that's kind of how it got started, and 74 00:03:44,280 --> 00:03:46,840 Speaker 1: it really there were there are different audiences that it 75 00:03:46,880 --> 00:03:49,280 Speaker 1: wanted to protect. It very specifically said it wanted to 76 00:03:49,320 --> 00:03:51,880 Speaker 1: protect the young, so it was very afraid that young 77 00:03:51,920 --> 00:03:55,120 Speaker 1: movie goers would go and they would see these objectionable things. 78 00:03:55,400 --> 00:03:59,000 Speaker 1: It was very explicitly said that it cared about protecting 79 00:03:59,120 --> 00:04:02,240 Speaker 1: people from small all communities as opposed to big cities. 80 00:04:02,280 --> 00:04:04,680 Speaker 1: So back then they were very sure that the rural 81 00:04:04,760 --> 00:04:07,880 Speaker 1: folks would get more corrupted by things than people who 82 00:04:07,880 --> 00:04:12,040 Speaker 1: are in urban centers who are more sophisticated, and it 83 00:04:12,080 --> 00:04:15,320 Speaker 1: doesn't say anything about wanting to protect women explicitly, but 84 00:04:15,440 --> 00:04:19,200 Speaker 1: my argument is that that's really underpinning a lot of 85 00:04:19,240 --> 00:04:22,040 Speaker 1: what they're doing in the code. They're very worried that women. 86 00:04:22,320 --> 00:04:24,920 Speaker 1: There was a conception at the time that women were 87 00:04:24,960 --> 00:04:27,920 Speaker 1: the main, uh bulk of movie goers and that they 88 00:04:27,920 --> 00:04:30,360 Speaker 1: were the ones who were watching this stuff and getting 89 00:04:30,360 --> 00:04:34,160 Speaker 1: corrupted by this stuff, and so a lot of the 90 00:04:34,160 --> 00:04:36,960 Speaker 1: these specific things that they forbid, there was nothing that 91 00:04:37,000 --> 00:04:39,920 Speaker 1: was specifically forbidden about men, but there were things like 92 00:04:40,040 --> 00:04:42,640 Speaker 1: they said, you know, dances with movement of the breasts 93 00:04:42,760 --> 00:04:45,880 Speaker 1: is forbidden to be seen on screen, or um the 94 00:04:45,960 --> 00:04:48,719 Speaker 1: sale of women or a woman selling her virtue is 95 00:04:48,760 --> 00:04:51,039 Speaker 1: to be forbidden. So it was clear and some of 96 00:04:51,040 --> 00:04:53,520 Speaker 1: the specific things they did that they were worried more 97 00:04:53,600 --> 00:04:56,799 Speaker 1: about how women were being portrayed and what female audiences 98 00:04:56,839 --> 00:04:59,200 Speaker 1: would be getting than they were worried about men. And 99 00:04:59,520 --> 00:05:01,880 Speaker 1: the one both that I jotted down that I think 100 00:05:01,960 --> 00:05:05,280 Speaker 1: is exemplify as what people were really thinking at the time, 101 00:05:05,279 --> 00:05:07,760 Speaker 1: even though it wasn't actually put into the code, is 102 00:05:07,800 --> 00:05:13,159 Speaker 1: there's this Chicago local film censor whose name is unbelievably 103 00:05:13,320 --> 00:05:17,800 Speaker 1: major medalist Lucillus Cicero funk Houser like such a mad 104 00:05:17,880 --> 00:05:20,000 Speaker 1: up name that this is his name and his quote, 105 00:05:20,000 --> 00:05:22,279 Speaker 1: as he said in the nineties seventeen, he says his 106 00:05:22,360 --> 00:05:26,480 Speaker 1: censorship policy is to eliminate sings that quote the male 107 00:05:26,560 --> 00:05:30,080 Speaker 1: sex could stand, but that might cause women to brood 108 00:05:30,200 --> 00:05:33,400 Speaker 1: and lose their reason. So he's worried that women will 109 00:05:33,480 --> 00:05:36,320 Speaker 1: just explode if they see this stuff on screen. And 110 00:05:36,440 --> 00:05:38,479 Speaker 1: a lot of people really were worried about that, even 111 00:05:38,480 --> 00:05:40,440 Speaker 1: though that's not really written in the production code in 112 00:05:40,480 --> 00:05:43,120 Speaker 1: the same way. So that was a very long answer, 113 00:05:43,200 --> 00:05:45,520 Speaker 1: but sure all things that led up to the code 114 00:05:45,560 --> 00:05:48,520 Speaker 1: being the way it was. Yeah, So there's a ton 115 00:05:48,680 --> 00:05:52,440 Speaker 1: of documentation out there about how that censorship kind of 116 00:05:52,480 --> 00:05:57,440 Speaker 1: stifled expression. And as you pointed out, the censor was 117 00:05:57,480 --> 00:06:00,280 Speaker 1: not necessarily the enemy of the r it is, but 118 00:06:00,320 --> 00:06:02,480 Speaker 1: they kind of work together with the artist to create 119 00:06:02,560 --> 00:06:06,760 Speaker 1: this subtext. So beyond that argument that the Hayes Code 120 00:06:06,760 --> 00:06:12,600 Speaker 1: restricted women's expression, what role did it play for you know, 121 00:06:12,640 --> 00:06:16,560 Speaker 1: the benefit of women in film? There? Maybe feminism, right, So, 122 00:06:16,640 --> 00:06:19,479 Speaker 1: I mean, one thing about feminism is that has all 123 00:06:19,520 --> 00:06:22,560 Speaker 1: these you know, different perspectives of course in different strands 124 00:06:22,560 --> 00:06:24,839 Speaker 1: and you can be a feminist with very different attitude 125 00:06:24,920 --> 00:06:28,640 Speaker 1: towards a sexuality. And so there's certainly some feminists would 126 00:06:28,640 --> 00:06:31,800 Speaker 1: say the more that you're trying to not show female 127 00:06:31,800 --> 00:06:36,320 Speaker 1: sexualities that stifling and that's you know, hindering um women's freedom, 128 00:06:36,360 --> 00:06:38,640 Speaker 1: which I can certainly see that standpoint as well. But 129 00:06:38,920 --> 00:06:42,720 Speaker 1: another standpoint is that women are very because they're so sexualized, 130 00:06:42,760 --> 00:06:46,279 Speaker 1: they're objectified on screen and so very famous. A piece 131 00:06:46,279 --> 00:06:48,920 Speaker 1: of film feminist film criticism by La Multi from the 132 00:06:48,960 --> 00:06:52,120 Speaker 1: nineteen seventies says that you know, the cinema is has 133 00:06:52,279 --> 00:06:55,200 Speaker 1: is all about the male gaze, and it's objectifying to women, 134 00:06:55,240 --> 00:06:57,360 Speaker 1: and women are just kind of, you know, these sexual 135 00:06:57,400 --> 00:07:00,039 Speaker 1: objects to be consumed by men. So in terms of 136 00:07:00,080 --> 00:07:03,640 Speaker 1: that strain of feminism, I would say that interestingly, censorship 137 00:07:03,880 --> 00:07:07,080 Speaker 1: it was not done in the name of making women 138 00:07:07,120 --> 00:07:09,680 Speaker 1: more empowered by any means. It was created by men, 139 00:07:10,120 --> 00:07:12,680 Speaker 1: I think four men. But what it did was it 140 00:07:13,000 --> 00:07:17,280 Speaker 1: kind of tried to stifle some of the overt objectification 141 00:07:17,360 --> 00:07:21,120 Speaker 1: and sexualization of women in terms of they're trying to 142 00:07:21,160 --> 00:07:23,240 Speaker 1: not just be a bunch of bodies on screen and 143 00:07:23,240 --> 00:07:25,720 Speaker 1: the stuff that you see in pre code Hollywood. I mean, 144 00:07:25,760 --> 00:07:28,200 Speaker 1: so much of it is wonderful and exciting and sexy 145 00:07:28,200 --> 00:07:30,280 Speaker 1: in many ways, but it also is like if you 146 00:07:30,320 --> 00:07:33,040 Speaker 1: think of like the buzzy Berkeley musicals, that are just 147 00:07:33,520 --> 00:07:36,960 Speaker 1: a bunch of like women's bodies just like disembodied, these 148 00:07:37,040 --> 00:07:39,840 Speaker 1: legs that looked like a kaleidoscope going around. And this 149 00:07:39,920 --> 00:07:43,120 Speaker 1: was during the years before the Code was enforced. Women 150 00:07:43,160 --> 00:07:46,520 Speaker 1: were so hyperbolically sexualized that I think that when the 151 00:07:46,560 --> 00:07:49,840 Speaker 1: Code came around, it had to make sex into something else, 152 00:07:49,880 --> 00:07:51,880 Speaker 1: and it didn't want to lose its sex appeal for 153 00:07:51,920 --> 00:07:54,560 Speaker 1: audiences because it still knew that sex sold. But what 154 00:07:54,640 --> 00:07:57,080 Speaker 1: it did and and the post code years, by which 155 00:07:57,120 --> 00:08:00,440 Speaker 1: I mean in post nineteen thirty four, is that we 156 00:08:00,520 --> 00:08:03,000 Speaker 1: then started having this genre of films that came about 157 00:08:03,000 --> 00:08:07,000 Speaker 1: where women's sexuality was expressed through their talking and their 158 00:08:07,320 --> 00:08:10,800 Speaker 1: witty banter, the screwball comedy, the romantic comedies of the age, 159 00:08:11,160 --> 00:08:14,480 Speaker 1: and women were kind of made to be very intelligent 160 00:08:14,600 --> 00:08:17,080 Speaker 1: and sexual in a way that was through there, you know, 161 00:08:17,120 --> 00:08:20,640 Speaker 1: they were desirable through um their brains, in their bodies, 162 00:08:20,720 --> 00:08:22,800 Speaker 1: you might be able to say. And so there was 163 00:08:22,840 --> 00:08:24,880 Speaker 1: a way in which the films that came directly after 164 00:08:24,960 --> 00:08:29,200 Speaker 1: the code um started to you know, expand what women's 165 00:08:29,240 --> 00:08:33,400 Speaker 1: purview was in terms of their you know, intellectual capacities 166 00:08:33,440 --> 00:08:35,320 Speaker 1: on screen, not that that hadn't always been I'm not 167 00:08:35,320 --> 00:08:38,319 Speaker 1: saying that when women were sexualized they were unintelligent, but 168 00:08:38,480 --> 00:08:40,160 Speaker 1: just that there was a different way that it was 169 00:08:40,200 --> 00:08:44,760 Speaker 1: the expression was happening. And so in general, my feeling 170 00:08:44,800 --> 00:08:48,280 Speaker 1: is that censorship forces the artists to be more subtle 171 00:08:48,640 --> 00:08:51,720 Speaker 1: and more subversive and get their points across in ways 172 00:08:51,720 --> 00:08:55,920 Speaker 1: that are specifically supposed to be sophisticated. I use that 173 00:08:55,920 --> 00:08:59,439 Speaker 1: we're in quotes because that's what the code administrators used 174 00:08:59,440 --> 00:09:01,840 Speaker 1: that term allot to say. We wanted to be sophisticated 175 00:09:01,880 --> 00:09:04,679 Speaker 1: material so that only some parts of the audience will 176 00:09:04,720 --> 00:09:07,800 Speaker 1: get it. And they thought that that meant adult versus children. 177 00:09:07,880 --> 00:09:09,920 Speaker 1: They thought that that meant men would get it and 178 00:09:09,960 --> 00:09:13,040 Speaker 1: women wouldn't. But the irony is that, you know, women 179 00:09:13,559 --> 00:09:16,320 Speaker 1: found a lot of pleasure in these movies, and obviously 180 00:09:16,360 --> 00:09:19,120 Speaker 1: women were getting a lot of the subtexts as well 181 00:09:19,480 --> 00:09:23,000 Speaker 1: and finding it very pleasurable to watch movies in that way, 182 00:09:23,679 --> 00:09:26,160 Speaker 1: I guess. And I would also say that, uh so, 183 00:09:26,440 --> 00:09:29,400 Speaker 1: one thing that the censorship worked very well at is 184 00:09:29,440 --> 00:09:31,920 Speaker 1: that it did a good job of squelching certain voices, 185 00:09:32,040 --> 00:09:36,160 Speaker 1: right um, trying to make more radicalized voices not be heard. 186 00:09:36,600 --> 00:09:39,120 Speaker 1: But in that same tone you could get people were 187 00:09:39,120 --> 00:09:43,000 Speaker 1: starting to um find ways to get around the way 188 00:09:43,080 --> 00:09:45,560 Speaker 1: that they were being officially told to to voice things. So, 189 00:09:45,600 --> 00:09:48,520 Speaker 1: for example, women directors, there were too many in the 190 00:09:48,520 --> 00:09:50,800 Speaker 1: classical Hollywood film are There was Lois Webber, who was 191 00:09:50,840 --> 00:09:53,560 Speaker 1: one of the most important film directors in the Silent era, 192 00:09:53,600 --> 00:09:56,720 Speaker 1: and I had Dorothy Arsner eventually had like Idle Lupino. 193 00:09:57,080 --> 00:09:58,840 Speaker 1: But there are a lot of women who were not 194 00:09:58,920 --> 00:10:01,440 Speaker 1: able to direct because was this kind of very male 195 00:10:01,880 --> 00:10:04,920 Speaker 1: playing field. But writing was a very different thing, and 196 00:10:04,960 --> 00:10:09,440 Speaker 1: women writers could get their voices in, often on uncredited 197 00:10:09,480 --> 00:10:11,199 Speaker 1: in ways. And so there are a lot of these 198 00:10:11,240 --> 00:10:14,040 Speaker 1: films that were that seemed like they're being completely produced 199 00:10:14,040 --> 00:10:16,560 Speaker 1: by men. They're directed by men, officially written by men, 200 00:10:16,640 --> 00:10:20,040 Speaker 1: sometimes um produced by men. But women's voices were able 201 00:10:20,080 --> 00:10:22,240 Speaker 1: to make their way in there. And the other way 202 00:10:22,400 --> 00:10:24,720 Speaker 1: was through the actresses themselves. And that's kind of the 203 00:10:24,720 --> 00:10:26,920 Speaker 1: project I'm working on right now, is thinking about how 204 00:10:27,280 --> 00:10:31,000 Speaker 1: the Hollywood actress herself as an icon as an idea 205 00:10:31,720 --> 00:10:35,280 Speaker 1: changed the way that women thought about themselves in um, 206 00:10:35,320 --> 00:10:37,400 Speaker 1: their own lives. So the fact that women were so 207 00:10:37,520 --> 00:10:41,160 Speaker 1: strong and successful and having these visible careers in a 208 00:10:41,200 --> 00:10:44,320 Speaker 1: way that had never really happened before the Hollywood actress. 209 00:10:44,400 --> 00:10:47,360 Speaker 1: During this time period and from the very beginning of Hollywood, 210 00:10:47,400 --> 00:10:50,720 Speaker 1: the actress reigned supreme. So Mary Pickford was the first 211 00:10:51,320 --> 00:10:54,400 Speaker 1: major Hollywood movie star in the nineteen and she really 212 00:10:54,480 --> 00:10:58,440 Speaker 1: was far more successful and visible and everyone obsessed over 213 00:10:58,440 --> 00:11:00,800 Speaker 1: her more than people like Charlie Applin, who you talked 214 00:11:00,800 --> 00:11:05,239 Speaker 1: more about today. Um. So, Hollywood itself was always dominated 215 00:11:05,240 --> 00:11:07,680 Speaker 1: by men, but the women were the ones who got 216 00:11:07,720 --> 00:11:10,600 Speaker 1: far more kind of pressed time, and people were more 217 00:11:10,640 --> 00:11:12,600 Speaker 1: obsessed with them. And I think it's because the idea 218 00:11:12,640 --> 00:11:16,360 Speaker 1: of a woman with that much, you know, visible power, 219 00:11:16,800 --> 00:11:19,360 Speaker 1: and she had, you know, she was disempowered in certain 220 00:11:19,400 --> 00:11:21,480 Speaker 1: ways because as a studio actress, she had to do 221 00:11:21,520 --> 00:11:23,800 Speaker 1: whatever her bosses told her to some extent. So many 222 00:11:23,840 --> 00:11:27,120 Speaker 1: women fought against that and became independent contract players. But 223 00:11:27,480 --> 00:11:29,720 Speaker 1: she also was the one that was, you know, on 224 00:11:29,800 --> 00:11:32,760 Speaker 1: all the movie magazine covers and was the one that 225 00:11:32,760 --> 00:11:35,199 Speaker 1: everyone talked about. And so the way that um, the 226 00:11:35,200 --> 00:11:38,360 Speaker 1: film's postcode, how that started to play out is that 227 00:11:38,360 --> 00:11:41,439 Speaker 1: that was the time period where more women, more female actresses. 228 00:11:41,800 --> 00:11:44,440 Speaker 1: They were starting to realize that the movie studios needed them, 229 00:11:44,440 --> 00:11:48,280 Speaker 1: And so you had actresses like Carol Lombard and conscious 230 00:11:48,320 --> 00:11:50,800 Speaker 1: that and not these people who were stepping away from 231 00:11:50,800 --> 00:11:52,719 Speaker 1: their contracts and saying, I want to run things the 232 00:11:52,760 --> 00:11:55,480 Speaker 1: way I wanted Bettie Davis fighting very hard. So the 233 00:11:55,520 --> 00:11:59,080 Speaker 1: coupling of the content of the movies shifting to make 234 00:11:59,160 --> 00:12:04,360 Speaker 1: female character stronger, and the actresses themselves starting to play 235 00:12:04,559 --> 00:12:07,240 Speaker 1: more and more of kind of a rebellious role in 236 00:12:07,480 --> 00:12:11,520 Speaker 1: um the kind of sexual political landscape of America that 237 00:12:11,720 --> 00:12:14,959 Speaker 1: those couple together meant that in the post code years, 238 00:12:15,040 --> 00:12:17,640 Speaker 1: that was one of some most exciting kind of developments 239 00:12:17,640 --> 00:12:21,840 Speaker 1: for uh, the intersection of Hollywood and feminism started to happen. 240 00:12:23,120 --> 00:12:26,199 Speaker 1: So I'm wondering was that something that movie goers recognized 241 00:12:26,240 --> 00:12:28,840 Speaker 1: at the time. Did they see that all these changes 242 00:12:28,880 --> 00:12:31,280 Speaker 1: were happening behind the scenes, or was that something that 243 00:12:31,360 --> 00:12:33,960 Speaker 1: people in the industry were kind of only in the 244 00:12:34,000 --> 00:12:36,920 Speaker 1: know of. Well, it was something that the movie industry 245 00:12:36,960 --> 00:12:40,280 Speaker 1: wanted very much to tout. They wanted to announce that 246 00:12:40,400 --> 00:12:42,720 Speaker 1: they were censoring things. They wanted to make it clear 247 00:12:43,040 --> 00:12:46,120 Speaker 1: that they were trying to purify these uh films to 248 00:12:46,280 --> 00:12:49,320 Speaker 1: make them safer for America because it actually I should 249 00:12:49,320 --> 00:12:51,960 Speaker 1: point out another role that women had in censorship is 250 00:12:52,000 --> 00:12:55,319 Speaker 1: that even though it was this small cohort of Catholic 251 00:12:55,320 --> 00:12:57,640 Speaker 1: men who did the writing of the production code, it 252 00:12:57,679 --> 00:13:01,600 Speaker 1: was really the women who were parts like these the 253 00:13:01,600 --> 00:13:04,120 Speaker 1: women's clubs, so we're called like the Federation of Women's Clubs, 254 00:13:04,120 --> 00:13:06,560 Speaker 1: and there are like thirty million members at the high 255 00:13:06,600 --> 00:13:09,160 Speaker 1: point of these clubs, and they were really some of 256 00:13:09,200 --> 00:13:13,400 Speaker 1: the people who were protesting the obscenity and the depravity 257 00:13:13,440 --> 00:13:16,679 Speaker 1: of films during the Ties. Some people thought that they 258 00:13:16,720 --> 00:13:18,400 Speaker 1: were doing this for the women, that they were trying 259 00:13:18,440 --> 00:13:21,320 Speaker 1: to protect the women. At the same time, um the 260 00:13:21,360 --> 00:13:24,760 Speaker 1: way there were articles written. There's one from up front 261 00:13:24,760 --> 00:13:27,840 Speaker 1: page of Variety that's called dirt Craze due to women, 262 00:13:28,440 --> 00:13:31,080 Speaker 1: where it talks to women loved her nothing shocks them. 263 00:13:31,679 --> 00:13:33,560 Speaker 1: The bat or the better women who make up the 264 00:13:33,559 --> 00:13:36,160 Speaker 1: bulk of the picture audiences are also the majority of 265 00:13:36,160 --> 00:13:39,880 Speaker 1: readers of the tabloid scandals, sheets, slashing magazines, and erotic books. 266 00:13:40,160 --> 00:13:42,320 Speaker 1: It is to cater to them. All the hot stuff 267 00:13:42,360 --> 00:13:45,200 Speaker 1: of the present day is turned out. So that's what 268 00:13:45,400 --> 00:13:48,760 Speaker 1: The perception was during the right as the code is 269 00:13:48,800 --> 00:13:52,280 Speaker 1: being implemented, So when it was implemented, they wanted to 270 00:13:52,800 --> 00:13:55,640 Speaker 1: say to everyone to make all those women's club members 271 00:13:55,640 --> 00:13:58,079 Speaker 1: who were protesting, they wanted to say, we are censoring 272 00:13:58,080 --> 00:14:00,680 Speaker 1: now and things are going to be different. But then 273 00:14:00,720 --> 00:14:03,319 Speaker 1: they also wanted to make all those women who they 274 00:14:03,320 --> 00:14:06,720 Speaker 1: thought were dirt crazed and wanted to watch sexy material. 275 00:14:06,760 --> 00:14:09,080 Speaker 1: They wanted to make them happy. So it was kind 276 00:14:09,080 --> 00:14:11,160 Speaker 1: of like, I think people were very aware that the 277 00:14:11,200 --> 00:14:14,559 Speaker 1: motion picture industry was trying to change in certain ways, 278 00:14:14,600 --> 00:14:17,320 Speaker 1: but then they'd go to the theaters and they would see, 279 00:14:17,400 --> 00:14:19,440 Speaker 1: certainly in the what we call the pre code years 280 00:14:19,440 --> 00:14:22,360 Speaker 1: between nineteen thirty and nineteen thirty four, they'd see that 281 00:14:22,520 --> 00:14:25,360 Speaker 1: things were getting all the more racy and exciting to them. 282 00:14:25,560 --> 00:14:28,000 Speaker 1: And then in the postport code years, I think that 283 00:14:28,040 --> 00:14:30,800 Speaker 1: they were going to the theaters and very aware like 284 00:14:30,920 --> 00:14:33,640 Speaker 1: what is being allowed to be shown to me and 285 00:14:33,680 --> 00:14:36,440 Speaker 1: what isn't and it forced them to come I think, 286 00:14:36,920 --> 00:14:40,560 Speaker 1: very savvy movie goers, so that people were always trying 287 00:14:40,600 --> 00:14:43,800 Speaker 1: to read sexual material into things that you know all 288 00:14:43,840 --> 00:14:46,520 Speaker 1: the more. This is kind of the uh for code 289 00:14:46,640 --> 00:14:49,440 Speaker 1: and concept. Michelle Faucode is French theorist who says that 290 00:14:49,800 --> 00:14:52,440 Speaker 1: I don't think of the Victorian eras this prudish era. 291 00:14:52,800 --> 00:14:55,520 Speaker 1: This was, in fact when people were obsessed with talking 292 00:14:55,560 --> 00:14:58,360 Speaker 1: about sex because it was forbidden. As soon as something 293 00:14:58,400 --> 00:15:00,760 Speaker 1: as forbidden, it's more exciting and then you want to 294 00:15:00,800 --> 00:15:02,360 Speaker 1: talk about it all the more. And I would say 295 00:15:02,400 --> 00:15:05,400 Speaker 1: the same thing happened after the Code is that these 296 00:15:05,440 --> 00:15:08,800 Speaker 1: movies came out and people were like thinking constantly where 297 00:15:08,920 --> 00:15:12,280 Speaker 1: is the sexuality? Where is the forbidden subtext in these films? 298 00:15:12,400 --> 00:15:15,080 Speaker 1: And it made them more pleasurable in certain ways. So 299 00:15:15,120 --> 00:15:17,720 Speaker 1: there's something that's just exciting about watching something that you 300 00:15:17,760 --> 00:15:20,400 Speaker 1: think you're getting that you shouldn't be getting, you know. 301 00:15:20,440 --> 00:15:22,560 Speaker 1: And I think that that's the kind of reading practices, 302 00:15:22,960 --> 00:15:28,000 Speaker 1: particularly for women, that emerged in the postcode era. Is 303 00:15:28,080 --> 00:15:31,600 Speaker 1: there any person, any woman are filmed that you can 304 00:15:31,680 --> 00:15:35,360 Speaker 1: point to that really illustrates how the Hayes Code era 305 00:15:35,480 --> 00:15:40,160 Speaker 1: censorship encouraged like innovation or expressiveness in cinema. Yeah, I mean, 306 00:15:40,360 --> 00:15:43,280 Speaker 1: I guess in general I would say the genre of um, 307 00:15:43,400 --> 00:15:46,160 Speaker 1: what we call now the screwball comedy, or more broadly, 308 00:15:46,200 --> 00:15:48,680 Speaker 1: the romantic comedy. The reason why I look to this 309 00:15:48,840 --> 00:15:51,880 Speaker 1: genre in particular is because it's the one where I mean, 310 00:15:51,920 --> 00:15:53,800 Speaker 1: there's some feminise critics that point out that in a 311 00:15:53,800 --> 00:15:57,160 Speaker 1: lot of these films women are strong and empowered for 312 00:15:57,240 --> 00:15:59,120 Speaker 1: most of the film, and then the very last few 313 00:15:59,120 --> 00:16:01,960 Speaker 1: minutes we have to kind of demobilize them in some 314 00:16:02,080 --> 00:16:04,640 Speaker 1: way or make them lose their voice. And I do 315 00:16:04,720 --> 00:16:07,400 Speaker 1: agree with that reading. But I also think that, you know, 316 00:16:07,680 --> 00:16:09,680 Speaker 1: one of the things the production code did is it 317 00:16:09,760 --> 00:16:12,680 Speaker 1: said what really matters is how the movie turns out, 318 00:16:12,720 --> 00:16:15,680 Speaker 1: Like you can do controversial stuff in the course of it, 319 00:16:15,880 --> 00:16:17,920 Speaker 1: but you have to wind up with a very kind 320 00:16:17,920 --> 00:16:21,600 Speaker 1: of conventional conservative message that the woman remains in the 321 00:16:21,640 --> 00:16:24,160 Speaker 1: home and things like that. But I also think that 322 00:16:24,160 --> 00:16:26,000 Speaker 1: everyone knew that at the time, going back to your 323 00:16:26,040 --> 00:16:29,520 Speaker 1: last question, that everybody was aware of the convention that 324 00:16:29,600 --> 00:16:32,440 Speaker 1: the ending had to feel a certain way. But if 325 00:16:32,480 --> 00:16:35,520 Speaker 1: you just you know, focused on the center of the 326 00:16:35,520 --> 00:16:37,880 Speaker 1: film or the majority of the film, then you could 327 00:16:37,880 --> 00:16:41,520 Speaker 1: get these messages that were much more subversive or um 328 00:16:41,560 --> 00:16:44,120 Speaker 1: kind of progressive. And so as a full genre, I 329 00:16:44,120 --> 00:16:46,560 Speaker 1: would say, if you look at the Screwball comedy, these 330 00:16:46,600 --> 00:16:49,640 Speaker 1: women characters in it, they are so much more kind 331 00:16:49,640 --> 00:16:52,280 Speaker 1: of agentive and active and they're the ones who are 332 00:16:52,320 --> 00:16:55,480 Speaker 1: controlling the plot, controlling the atmosphere. They're the ones who 333 00:16:55,480 --> 00:16:58,160 Speaker 1: are smarter than the men usually and they're outwitting them. 334 00:16:58,480 --> 00:17:00,520 Speaker 1: And this was something that was relatively knew, and that 335 00:17:00,640 --> 00:17:04,040 Speaker 1: the idea that women could be this much in control 336 00:17:04,080 --> 00:17:07,119 Speaker 1: of their own identities and their own sexuality and just 337 00:17:07,200 --> 00:17:09,800 Speaker 1: again going back to sex as a trope that really 338 00:17:09,880 --> 00:17:13,040 Speaker 1: gets treated differently in the postcode era in a way 339 00:17:13,080 --> 00:17:16,080 Speaker 1: that a lot of women found to be empowering to them, 340 00:17:16,119 --> 00:17:20,120 Speaker 1: so that uh, you know, actresses like Katherine Shepburn and 341 00:17:20,800 --> 00:17:25,119 Speaker 1: barbara's Sandwick and Carol Lombard and Irene Dune. These were 342 00:17:25,160 --> 00:17:28,520 Speaker 1: actresses where the reason they were so popular with female 343 00:17:28,560 --> 00:17:32,320 Speaker 1: audiences is because women felt like they were able to 344 00:17:32,359 --> 00:17:34,600 Speaker 1: achieve the things that they wanted to achieve in their 345 00:17:34,600 --> 00:17:36,920 Speaker 1: own lives. But through these stories that were often very 346 00:17:36,960 --> 00:17:39,320 Speaker 1: you know, kind of their slapstick comedy. There's a lot 347 00:17:39,320 --> 00:17:42,920 Speaker 1: of falling and silliness, but the message the undergirding messages 348 00:17:42,960 --> 00:17:46,040 Speaker 1: them is that you know, women really can and should 349 00:17:46,520 --> 00:17:50,439 Speaker 1: be in a more prominent place in the world. Do 350 00:17:50,520 --> 00:17:54,520 Speaker 1: you have any favorite scene or particular moment that just 351 00:17:54,680 --> 00:17:56,879 Speaker 1: really stands out to you that you've seen from that 352 00:17:56,960 --> 00:18:00,280 Speaker 1: era of films that you like, go back to when 353 00:18:00,320 --> 00:18:05,159 Speaker 1: you're thinking about censorship and how was the verdict um 354 00:18:05,400 --> 00:18:10,080 Speaker 1: not to put you on the spot or anything, but 355 00:18:10,119 --> 00:18:16,280 Speaker 1: only if you yeah. I mean one scene that highlights 356 00:18:16,400 --> 00:18:19,640 Speaker 1: the thing I was talking about, where where sexuality feels 357 00:18:19,640 --> 00:18:22,760 Speaker 1: more desirable because it's forbidden. I don't know if that's 358 00:18:22,840 --> 00:18:25,880 Speaker 1: quite the it's not the female empowerment thing, but we're 359 00:18:25,880 --> 00:18:28,560 Speaker 1: seeing that that I often think of that embodies what 360 00:18:28,600 --> 00:18:31,480 Speaker 1: a code censorship did is from It Happened One Night, 361 00:18:31,520 --> 00:18:34,639 Speaker 1: which there's Clark Gable and Clade Colbert. Which happened is 362 00:18:34,760 --> 00:18:37,920 Speaker 1: filmed right in at the moment that Joseph Green takes over, 363 00:18:37,960 --> 00:18:40,800 Speaker 1: so the code is now being formalized in a new way. 364 00:18:41,200 --> 00:18:43,000 Speaker 1: And the plot of it is is that they're on 365 00:18:43,040 --> 00:18:45,240 Speaker 1: the road together. They are not married, she's married someone else, 366 00:18:45,240 --> 00:18:47,240 Speaker 1: she's look with someone and he's the reporter who's going 367 00:18:47,280 --> 00:18:48,760 Speaker 1: to get a story about it. But of course they're 368 00:18:48,800 --> 00:18:51,320 Speaker 1: falling in love and there's a lot of witty banter 369 00:18:51,480 --> 00:18:54,040 Speaker 1: between them. But um there's a scene where they're both 370 00:18:54,080 --> 00:18:55,960 Speaker 1: staying in a hotel room together and there will be 371 00:18:56,040 --> 00:18:58,960 Speaker 1: very shocking for the time period. And so the way 372 00:18:58,960 --> 00:19:01,280 Speaker 1: that he makes this okay a is that he hangs 373 00:19:01,280 --> 00:19:03,399 Speaker 1: a blanket in the middle on a rope in the 374 00:19:03,400 --> 00:19:05,600 Speaker 1: middle of their room and he says, all right, now 375 00:19:05,640 --> 00:19:07,959 Speaker 1: I can't see anything, so you're fine. And so as 376 00:19:07,960 --> 00:19:10,359 Speaker 1: two starts like getting undressed, and then she just starts 377 00:19:10,359 --> 00:19:12,879 Speaker 1: throwing you know, her stockings and her clothes over at 378 00:19:12,880 --> 00:19:14,600 Speaker 1: the top of it to hang it as she's gonna 379 00:19:14,600 --> 00:19:18,320 Speaker 1: put on her pajamas, and he gets so he's like, well, now, 380 00:19:18,359 --> 00:19:20,280 Speaker 1: all I'm doing, of course, is imagine you on the 381 00:19:20,280 --> 00:19:22,840 Speaker 1: other side naked. And so the idea is that you 382 00:19:22,920 --> 00:19:25,119 Speaker 1: put up a wall, you put up a barrier, you 383 00:19:25,160 --> 00:19:27,399 Speaker 1: try to hide what's on the other side, and it 384 00:19:27,440 --> 00:19:29,320 Speaker 1: makes people think about it all the more but be 385 00:19:29,359 --> 00:19:31,840 Speaker 1: able to use their own imaginations in a way that 386 00:19:32,440 --> 00:19:35,719 Speaker 1: is you know, very stimulating and also requires more of 387 00:19:35,760 --> 00:19:38,280 Speaker 1: the viewer and it puts more of the sexuality into 388 00:19:38,359 --> 00:19:40,560 Speaker 1: your mind in ways that I mean, you could say 389 00:19:40,560 --> 00:19:43,000 Speaker 1: that that makes you more kind of pervy that you're 390 00:19:43,040 --> 00:19:44,920 Speaker 1: trying to think about what's over there, but also makes 391 00:19:44,960 --> 00:19:47,919 Speaker 1: it so that the sex is more about the viewer 392 00:19:47,960 --> 00:19:50,000 Speaker 1: instead of what's on the screen. And I think for 393 00:19:50,080 --> 00:19:52,639 Speaker 1: women in particularly that could feel like a way that 394 00:19:52,680 --> 00:19:54,960 Speaker 1: they could in this time when it was considered so 395 00:19:55,119 --> 00:19:58,880 Speaker 1: taboo for them to have overt sexual desires and opinions, 396 00:19:58,920 --> 00:20:00,840 Speaker 1: they could watch these movies and let it kind of 397 00:20:00,880 --> 00:20:03,280 Speaker 1: play out in their own imaginative bass in a way 398 00:20:03,720 --> 00:20:07,679 Speaker 1: that felt really good to them. That is really smart. 399 00:20:07,720 --> 00:20:09,439 Speaker 1: I wouldn't have thought of that scene like that. It's 400 00:20:09,480 --> 00:20:12,080 Speaker 1: like they were doing things that were meta before meta 401 00:20:12,200 --> 00:20:15,840 Speaker 1: was the huge thing to do in film. But it's 402 00:20:15,880 --> 00:20:17,960 Speaker 1: so cool to think of it this way because now 403 00:20:18,080 --> 00:20:19,679 Speaker 1: I'm going to go back and look at movies in 404 00:20:19,720 --> 00:20:21,920 Speaker 1: such a different light, because I guess I always think 405 00:20:21,920 --> 00:20:24,520 Speaker 1: of censorship as this kind of thing to rally around, 406 00:20:24,600 --> 00:20:26,920 Speaker 1: as a negative thing, as a bad thing, like there's 407 00:20:26,960 --> 00:20:29,680 Speaker 1: a shadowy cabal of like overlords who are telling you 408 00:20:30,000 --> 00:20:31,600 Speaker 1: what you can and what you can put in this, 409 00:20:31,680 --> 00:20:33,800 Speaker 1: and it's bad for me as an artist or for 410 00:20:33,840 --> 00:20:36,680 Speaker 1: that person as an artist. And yeah, this just really 411 00:20:36,680 --> 00:20:39,520 Speaker 1: puts things into a different light. So those are all 412 00:20:39,560 --> 00:20:41,880 Speaker 1: the questions that I have. But if you have anything 413 00:20:41,960 --> 00:20:44,800 Speaker 1: that you want to add, Bill free to I mean, yeah, 414 00:20:44,800 --> 00:20:46,520 Speaker 1: I know that what you were just saying is exactly 415 00:20:46,520 --> 00:20:48,399 Speaker 1: what I'm trying to get at is the idea that 416 00:20:48,880 --> 00:20:52,080 Speaker 1: I mean, both the sensors. Often we're not trying as 417 00:20:52,119 --> 00:20:54,280 Speaker 1: hard as we thought to block, and I think they 418 00:20:54,320 --> 00:20:57,760 Speaker 1: just wanted to make sure that it passed certain people's uster. 419 00:20:57,840 --> 00:21:01,600 Speaker 1: They were okay with movies talking to people in different ways. 420 00:21:01,840 --> 00:21:04,520 Speaker 1: But also the fact that artists are smart, and artists 421 00:21:04,880 --> 00:21:07,320 Speaker 1: censorship doesn't just welch people. I mean, of course, in 422 00:21:07,440 --> 00:21:10,240 Speaker 1: some ways censorship can when it's you know, legalized, and 423 00:21:10,359 --> 00:21:13,040 Speaker 1: people are you know, other voices are silence in very 424 00:21:13,040 --> 00:21:15,439 Speaker 1: real ways. But in places where we have you know, 425 00:21:15,560 --> 00:21:19,760 Speaker 1: foundational levels of freedom of speech, sometimes censorship instead work 426 00:21:19,960 --> 00:21:24,160 Speaker 1: to motivate the artists and inspire the artists in ways 427 00:21:24,240 --> 00:21:27,200 Speaker 1: that I think we don't think it's tough about. Yeah, 428 00:21:27,960 --> 00:21:30,679 Speaker 1: all right, thank you so much for talking about this today. 429 00:21:30,720 --> 00:21:32,639 Speaker 1: It's been a real pleasure. All Right, It's fun to 430 00:21:32,640 --> 00:21:39,520 Speaker 1: talk to you by. Thank you so much for listening 431 00:21:39,520 --> 00:21:42,399 Speaker 1: to this episode today. I hope you enjoyed it, and 432 00:21:42,440 --> 00:21:44,560 Speaker 1: I hope you enjoyed all of the interviews that we've 433 00:21:44,600 --> 00:21:47,560 Speaker 1: done for Women's History Month. You can let us know 434 00:21:47,640 --> 00:21:50,440 Speaker 1: how you felt about them at T D I h 435 00:21:50,440 --> 00:21:55,879 Speaker 1: C Podcast on Twitter, Facebook, and Instagram. We'll see you here. 436 00:21:55,920 --> 00:22:06,760 Speaker 1: In the same place tomorrow. A quick content warning before 437 00:22:06,760 --> 00:22:10,320 Speaker 1: we start the show. This episode contains mention of sex work. 438 00:22:12,240 --> 00:22:15,159 Speaker 1: Hey everyone, I'm Eves and welcome to This Day in 439 00:22:15,280 --> 00:22:18,440 Speaker 1: History Class, a show that brings you a little slice 440 00:22:18,440 --> 00:22:32,720 Speaker 1: of history every day. The day was March one, boxer 441 00:22:32,800 --> 00:22:36,600 Speaker 1: Jack Johnson was born. Johnson went on to become the 442 00:22:36,640 --> 00:22:41,960 Speaker 1: first African American world heavyweight boxing champion. Johnson was born 443 00:22:41,960 --> 00:22:46,240 Speaker 1: in Galveston, Texas. His parents, Henry and Tina Johnson, were 444 00:22:46,280 --> 00:22:51,439 Speaker 1: both formerly enslaved and had blue collar jobs. Jack was 445 00:22:51,480 --> 00:22:55,000 Speaker 1: the third of nine children, five of whom reached adulthood. 446 00:22:55,480 --> 00:22:57,920 Speaker 1: He grew up in a racially mixed neighborhood and went 447 00:22:58,000 --> 00:23:02,199 Speaker 1: through five years of school. After Jack left school, he 448 00:23:02,240 --> 00:23:05,920 Speaker 1: took a series of jobs. Throughout this time, he participated 449 00:23:05,960 --> 00:23:09,719 Speaker 1: in fights and built up his self defense skills. It 450 00:23:09,760 --> 00:23:12,560 Speaker 1: was in Dallas that Johnson was encouraged to train as 451 00:23:12,560 --> 00:23:16,600 Speaker 1: a boxer. Back in Galveston, he took on more jobs 452 00:23:16,760 --> 00:23:19,240 Speaker 1: and saved up enough money to buy a pair of 453 00:23:19,280 --> 00:23:23,240 Speaker 1: boxing gloves. He moved from street fights to taking part 454 00:23:23,280 --> 00:23:28,199 Speaker 1: in loosely organized boxing bouts. Johnson began traveling across the 455 00:23:28,240 --> 00:23:31,000 Speaker 1: country to fight in the late eighteen nineties, and it 456 00:23:31,040 --> 00:23:33,760 Speaker 1: was during this time that he became a professional boxer. 457 00:23:34,720 --> 00:23:38,080 Speaker 1: He gained a reputation as a formidable heavyweight and became 458 00:23:38,160 --> 00:23:42,280 Speaker 1: known as the Galveston Giant, but he was limited to 459 00:23:42,359 --> 00:23:45,439 Speaker 1: fighting on the black boxing circuit, which meant that he 460 00:23:45,480 --> 00:23:49,480 Speaker 1: got less money and could not fight in world championship matches. 461 00:23:50,640 --> 00:23:54,400 Speaker 1: Throughout his boxing career, he supplemented his income by taking 462 00:23:54,440 --> 00:23:59,080 Speaker 1: speaking engagements, as well as singing, dancing, and playing instruments 463 00:23:59,119 --> 00:24:02,960 Speaker 1: on the vaudeville sir get Johnson won his first title 464 00:24:03,000 --> 00:24:06,640 Speaker 1: when he beat Denver at Martin for the unofficial World 465 00:24:06,680 --> 00:24:10,960 Speaker 1: Colored Heavyweight Championship in nineteen oh three. The press urged 466 00:24:11,119 --> 00:24:15,760 Speaker 1: James Jeffries, the reigning white heavyweight champion, to take on Johnson, 467 00:24:16,200 --> 00:24:21,400 Speaker 1: but Jeffries refused to fight a black man. Once Jeffries retired, 468 00:24:21,640 --> 00:24:24,680 Speaker 1: Johnson pursued a fight with the new champion, Tommy Burns. 469 00:24:25,240 --> 00:24:28,080 Speaker 1: Burns agreed to the fight after he was offered thirty 470 00:24:28,119 --> 00:24:31,880 Speaker 1: thousand dollars to take it. In December of nineteen o eight, 471 00:24:32,000 --> 00:24:35,080 Speaker 1: Johnson and Burns went up against each other. The fight 472 00:24:35,160 --> 00:24:38,520 Speaker 1: lasted fourteen rounds before the police broke it up as 473 00:24:38,680 --> 00:24:42,879 Speaker 1: Johnson had beaten Burns badly. Johnson was declared the winner. 474 00:24:44,080 --> 00:24:47,119 Speaker 1: His win upset a lot of white America, and the 475 00:24:47,160 --> 00:24:50,240 Speaker 1: search for a white boxer who could beat Johnson began. 476 00:24:51,320 --> 00:24:54,800 Speaker 1: Novelist Jack London coined the term great White Hope to 477 00:24:54,880 --> 00:24:58,480 Speaker 1: describe the man who would fulfill this role. So in 478 00:24:58,560 --> 00:25:02,159 Speaker 1: nineteen ten, j Jeffries came out of retirement for the 479 00:25:02,200 --> 00:25:06,800 Speaker 1: fight he had previously refused. The press intensified tensions around 480 00:25:06,800 --> 00:25:10,000 Speaker 1: the fight by claiming that a Johnson win might lead 481 00:25:10,040 --> 00:25:14,240 Speaker 1: black people to riot. Johnson won in the fifteenth round 482 00:25:14,359 --> 00:25:18,360 Speaker 1: when Jeffreys threw in the towel before an inevitable knockout happened. 483 00:25:18,840 --> 00:25:21,520 Speaker 1: Race riots did erupt in cities across the US in 484 00:25:21,520 --> 00:25:25,880 Speaker 1: the aftermath of the match. Johnson continued to fight professionally 485 00:25:25,960 --> 00:25:29,720 Speaker 1: into the nineteen thirties and did exhibition matches after that, 486 00:25:30,920 --> 00:25:34,240 Speaker 1: but beyond his career, his personal life was also riddled 487 00:25:34,280 --> 00:25:37,840 Speaker 1: with controversy. He was married to and in relationships with 488 00:25:38,000 --> 00:25:42,000 Speaker 1: several white women at a time when interracial relationships were taboo. 489 00:25:43,040 --> 00:25:45,840 Speaker 1: He was charged with violating the Man Act after he 490 00:25:45,960 --> 00:25:49,560 Speaker 1: was accused of transporting a white sex worker across state lines. 491 00:25:50,080 --> 00:25:52,879 Speaker 1: He fled the US and lived in exile for several 492 00:25:52,960 --> 00:25:56,720 Speaker 1: years until he surrendered to U. S Marshals in ninety 493 00:25:57,520 --> 00:26:02,280 Speaker 1: He served ten months in prison. Johnson also faced allegations 494 00:26:02,320 --> 00:26:06,240 Speaker 1: of domestic violence. Johnson died in a car crash in 495 00:26:06,280 --> 00:26:11,119 Speaker 1: North Carolina. In the decades following his death, people began 496 00:26:11,160 --> 00:26:13,680 Speaker 1: to speak out on the racist motivations of the charges 497 00:26:13,720 --> 00:26:17,159 Speaker 1: that he faced. He was granted a presidential pardon in 498 00:26:19,440 --> 00:26:21,840 Speaker 1: I'm Eve cheff Cote and hopefully you know a little 499 00:26:21,880 --> 00:26:25,639 Speaker 1: more about history today than you did yesterday. And if 500 00:26:25,640 --> 00:26:27,480 Speaker 1: you want to send us a note on social media, 501 00:26:27,840 --> 00:26:30,680 Speaker 1: you can do so on Facebook, Twitter, or Instagram at 502 00:26:31,119 --> 00:26:34,520 Speaker 1: t d I h C podcast. You can also send 503 00:26:34,560 --> 00:26:37,440 Speaker 1: us a note via email at this Day at I 504 00:26:37,600 --> 00:26:40,960 Speaker 1: heeart media dot com. Thanks again for listening to the 505 00:26:41,000 --> 00:26:54,560 Speaker 1: show and we'll see you again tomorrow. For more podcasts 506 00:26:54,600 --> 00:26:56,560 Speaker 1: for my Heart Radio, visit the i Heart Radio app, 507 00:26:56,640 --> 00:26:59,280 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.