1 00:00:03,680 --> 00:00:06,720 Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson. I'm a journalist who's spent the 2 00:00:06,800 --> 00:00:09,559 Speaker 1: last twenty five years writing about true crime. 3 00:00:09,800 --> 00:00:12,800 Speaker 2: And I'm Paul Hols, a retired cold case investigator who's 4 00:00:12,840 --> 00:00:16,439 Speaker 2: worked some of America's most complicated cases and solve them. 5 00:00:16,480 --> 00:00:19,759 Speaker 1: Each week, I present Paul with one of history's most 6 00:00:19,840 --> 00:00:21,720 Speaker 1: compelling true crimes. 7 00:00:21,400 --> 00:00:24,279 Speaker 2: And I weigh in using modern forensic techniques to bring 8 00:00:24,320 --> 00:00:26,040 Speaker 2: new insights to old mysteries. 9 00:00:26,440 --> 00:00:31,680 Speaker 1: Together, using our individual expertise, we're examining historical true crime 10 00:00:31,760 --> 00:00:34,400 Speaker 1: cases through a twenty first century lens. 11 00:00:34,600 --> 00:00:37,800 Speaker 2: Some are solved and some are cold, very cold. 12 00:00:38,240 --> 00:00:45,680 Speaker 1: This is buried bones. 13 00:01:01,800 --> 00:01:02,640 Speaker 2: Ay, Kate, how are you? 14 00:01:02,960 --> 00:01:04,480 Speaker 1: I'm great, Paul. How's it going. 15 00:01:05,200 --> 00:01:09,120 Speaker 2: I'm doing good. I guess you have to give me 16 00:01:09,360 --> 00:01:11,679 Speaker 2: an update on the case that we're talking about, because 17 00:01:11,720 --> 00:01:13,840 Speaker 2: I'm losing track some of the details. 18 00:01:14,520 --> 00:01:16,399 Speaker 1: I thought you'd be thinking about it all week. But 19 00:01:16,600 --> 00:01:20,000 Speaker 1: obviously I didn't make a compelling case for for Ellen Lucas. 20 00:01:20,040 --> 00:01:23,560 Speaker 1: If you remember our eighteen year old woman who was 21 00:01:23,600 --> 00:01:27,520 Speaker 1: found face down in a creek in Connecticut in eighteen 22 00:01:27,600 --> 00:01:32,119 Speaker 1: seventy four, and you know that evidence so far has 23 00:01:32,200 --> 00:01:36,560 Speaker 1: been this that she has a lousy fiance that they 24 00:01:36,600 --> 00:01:38,800 Speaker 1: were supposed to get married. They seem to have a 25 00:01:38,920 --> 00:01:42,680 Speaker 1: very serious conversation on the night of October two, according 26 00:01:42,680 --> 00:01:44,240 Speaker 1: to her mom. And then we're going to hear from 27 00:01:44,240 --> 00:01:47,840 Speaker 1: a witness. Nobody likes James. He's kind of a jerk 28 00:01:48,200 --> 00:01:50,960 Speaker 1: and sort of a near to well, I guess he says, 29 00:01:51,000 --> 00:01:52,640 Speaker 1: I said goodbye to her and that was the end 30 00:01:52,640 --> 00:01:54,920 Speaker 1: of it. And he, as we will find out in 31 00:01:54,920 --> 00:01:57,480 Speaker 1: a minute, says I have an alibi. And the next 32 00:01:57,520 --> 00:01:59,680 Speaker 1: thing we know, Ellen has not come home, and she's 33 00:01:59,720 --> 00:02:02,960 Speaker 1: found in that creek, and they say she has a 34 00:02:03,040 --> 00:02:06,680 Speaker 1: really bad bruise on her forehead, a livid bruise on 35 00:02:06,760 --> 00:02:10,200 Speaker 1: her forehead, and they say that she has inhaled water 36 00:02:10,320 --> 00:02:13,800 Speaker 1: and sand and the vegetation that would have been in 37 00:02:13,840 --> 00:02:17,040 Speaker 1: the water. So it seems clear from you from what 38 00:02:17,080 --> 00:02:19,000 Speaker 1: we know right one of the issues with the story 39 00:02:19,040 --> 00:02:23,639 Speaker 1: is they can't definitively say how she died. They can't 40 00:02:23,639 --> 00:02:26,480 Speaker 1: say for sure right now whether they think this is 41 00:02:26,600 --> 00:02:32,280 Speaker 1: murder or suicide or an accident. There's circumstances, but there's 42 00:02:32,320 --> 00:02:35,200 Speaker 1: no gun, there's no knife. There's a lot of murkiness 43 00:02:35,200 --> 00:02:36,480 Speaker 1: about this story so far. 44 00:02:36,639 --> 00:02:40,200 Speaker 2: No I don't find it as murky, just because you 45 00:02:40,280 --> 00:02:43,840 Speaker 2: have to take in everything in totality at the crime 46 00:02:43,880 --> 00:02:48,320 Speaker 2: scene and the autopsy findings and just the you know, 47 00:02:48,360 --> 00:02:51,880 Speaker 2: the bruise on the forehead, the inhalation of the water, 48 00:02:52,080 --> 00:02:56,080 Speaker 2: and the muck from the creek bottom. Those two things 49 00:02:56,080 --> 00:03:01,959 Speaker 2: could be a result of somebody who fell and when unconscious. However, 50 00:03:02,360 --> 00:03:04,760 Speaker 2: we have on her body, we have marks on her 51 00:03:04,800 --> 00:03:09,000 Speaker 2: wrists that is inconsistent with that scenario of her just 52 00:03:09,040 --> 00:03:15,160 Speaker 2: tripping and falling. We also have the surrounding area where 53 00:03:14,919 --> 00:03:21,280 Speaker 2: there's an observation of a struggle. You have plant material 54 00:03:21,320 --> 00:03:24,520 Speaker 2: that's crushed down, it sounds like there's shoe impressions that 55 00:03:24,560 --> 00:03:27,680 Speaker 2: they're interpreting showing that there's some combat going on. And 56 00:03:27,720 --> 00:03:31,120 Speaker 2: of course there's this men's necktie that's in the area. 57 00:03:31,639 --> 00:03:37,440 Speaker 2: So there's enough for me this would be a suspicious 58 00:03:37,560 --> 00:03:40,920 Speaker 2: death scene up front, but should be treated as a 59 00:03:40,920 --> 00:03:44,600 Speaker 2: homicide until proven that it's not. There's enough here to 60 00:03:44,640 --> 00:03:48,600 Speaker 2: where I'm going, Okay, can I account for all this 61 00:03:48,680 --> 00:03:52,400 Speaker 2: other evidence at the crime scene to result in that 62 00:03:52,600 --> 00:03:55,000 Speaker 2: whether she died by suicide or whether this was an 63 00:03:55,000 --> 00:04:00,200 Speaker 2: accidental drowning, if that's what it is, or is it 64 00:04:00,360 --> 00:04:04,680 Speaker 2: more likely that this is a result of death at 65 00:04:04,720 --> 00:04:07,520 Speaker 2: the hands of another. We have a homicide, and right 66 00:04:07,560 --> 00:04:11,120 Speaker 2: now I have to lean towards homicide until I can 67 00:04:11,160 --> 00:04:14,920 Speaker 2: account for this evidence for these other manners of death. 68 00:04:15,440 --> 00:04:17,640 Speaker 1: Well. And then, of course we have that complication that 69 00:04:17,720 --> 00:04:19,800 Speaker 1: I dropped on you right at the end of the 70 00:04:19,880 --> 00:04:23,480 Speaker 1: last episode, which is that Ellen was seven months pregnant 71 00:04:23,880 --> 00:04:27,200 Speaker 1: at the time of her death, as discovered by attending physician, 72 00:04:27,279 --> 00:04:27,960 Speaker 1: which is huge. 73 00:04:28,279 --> 00:04:29,479 Speaker 2: Was she hiding her pregnancy? 74 00:04:29,920 --> 00:04:35,040 Speaker 1: It sounds like no, but nobody would admit that they knew, 75 00:04:35,560 --> 00:04:37,760 Speaker 1: so I will say it like this. We don't know 76 00:04:37,800 --> 00:04:41,919 Speaker 1: if Ellen's family knew that she was pregnant, but the 77 00:04:42,000 --> 00:04:44,159 Speaker 1: fact that her father was willing to do such an 78 00:04:44,200 --> 00:04:48,240 Speaker 1: about face on James in the marriage situation, what I 79 00:04:48,440 --> 00:04:52,760 Speaker 1: envision and what happened a lot was the girl said 80 00:04:52,839 --> 00:04:55,640 Speaker 1: I want to marry him, the father says no, and 81 00:04:55,680 --> 00:04:58,320 Speaker 1: then the girl says I'm pregnant, and then the father 82 00:04:58,400 --> 00:05:02,240 Speaker 1: says okay, because boy, that wouldn't have flown in eighteen 83 00:05:02,279 --> 00:05:05,719 Speaker 1: seventy four. An unmarried woman, an eighteen year old, unmarried 84 00:05:05,760 --> 00:05:10,000 Speaker 1: woman who was pregnant. That's the suspicion by many is 85 00:05:10,040 --> 00:05:12,760 Speaker 1: that the family who was not saying anything about whether 86 00:05:12,839 --> 00:05:15,400 Speaker 1: they knew about it or not, did there about face 87 00:05:15,480 --> 00:05:17,120 Speaker 1: because of that because of the pregnancy. 88 00:05:17,480 --> 00:05:20,240 Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, and I immediately go to we else, 89 00:05:20,360 --> 00:05:24,839 Speaker 2: James the father? Did James know she was pregnant that 90 00:05:25,200 --> 00:05:28,719 Speaker 2: evening before she's found dead? Did she tell James she's 91 00:05:28,760 --> 00:05:31,640 Speaker 2: pregnant and who the father actually was? You know, there's 92 00:05:32,200 --> 00:05:35,800 Speaker 2: obviously there could be motive for James to act out 93 00:05:35,960 --> 00:05:41,599 Speaker 2: under those types of hypotheticals, So it becomes significant, you know, 94 00:05:41,640 --> 00:05:45,440 Speaker 2: how does this pregnancy affect the relationship and how is 95 00:05:45,440 --> 00:05:49,159 Speaker 2: it going to affect the relationship moving forward in James's mind? 96 00:05:49,720 --> 00:05:51,520 Speaker 1: And a little side note, you and I have talked 97 00:05:51,520 --> 00:05:55,240 Speaker 1: about this with another case, the woman who got pregnant 98 00:05:55,360 --> 00:05:58,200 Speaker 1: in the seventeen hundreds by a young man who was 99 00:05:58,240 --> 00:06:01,080 Speaker 1: not her husband, and they felt so trapped that they 100 00:06:01,200 --> 00:06:04,440 Speaker 1: killed the husband and then she ended up being executed 101 00:06:04,760 --> 00:06:08,680 Speaker 1: even though people probably knew she was pregnant at the time. 102 00:06:09,400 --> 00:06:11,840 Speaker 1: You know, I had brought this up before. I had 103 00:06:11,880 --> 00:06:14,919 Speaker 1: read that in a new study says that pregnant women 104 00:06:15,000 --> 00:06:18,800 Speaker 1: are thirty five percent more likely to be murdered than 105 00:06:18,839 --> 00:06:21,600 Speaker 1: not pregnant women. I think we can talk about that 106 00:06:21,839 --> 00:06:25,640 Speaker 1: because pregnancy is one of those things that could scare 107 00:06:25,680 --> 00:06:27,800 Speaker 1: someone or it could be used as a threat. I 108 00:06:27,800 --> 00:06:31,200 Speaker 1: mean right, there are a lot of different possibilities about 109 00:06:31,360 --> 00:06:35,239 Speaker 1: why pregnancy would result in murder, not blaming the victim, 110 00:06:35,400 --> 00:06:40,320 Speaker 1: just saying circumstances could really frighten somebody an offender. 111 00:06:40,839 --> 00:06:45,120 Speaker 2: Well, with with these pregnant victims, there's a couple of 112 00:06:45,720 --> 00:06:49,840 Speaker 2: aspects that I could see where they would have an 113 00:06:49,920 --> 00:06:56,320 Speaker 2: elevated a percentage of being victims of homicide. One is 114 00:06:56,520 --> 00:06:59,720 Speaker 2: because of the significant life change that is about to 115 00:06:59,760 --> 00:07:04,760 Speaker 2: walk her, and that the offender his life is being 116 00:07:04,800 --> 00:07:09,640 Speaker 2: impacted and he's deciding I do not want this and 117 00:07:09,760 --> 00:07:13,440 Speaker 2: he kills the mother. Then there's also sort of what 118 00:07:13,520 --> 00:07:17,120 Speaker 2: I was bringing up under the one of the hypotheticals 119 00:07:17,160 --> 00:07:21,720 Speaker 2: involving James is that it's found out that the offender 120 00:07:21,880 --> 00:07:24,360 Speaker 2: is not the father of the child. Now, in that 121 00:07:24,480 --> 00:07:29,000 Speaker 2: jealous type fit of rage acts out. There could be 122 00:07:29,000 --> 00:07:32,560 Speaker 2: financial reasons as well. You know, this is going to 123 00:07:32,600 --> 00:07:35,960 Speaker 2: be a financial burden to raise a child, and now 124 00:07:36,000 --> 00:07:39,440 Speaker 2: there's an elimination homicide due to that financial fear. 125 00:07:39,880 --> 00:07:42,160 Speaker 1: And I think many of those are on the table here. 126 00:07:42,200 --> 00:07:46,960 Speaker 1: With this case, they try to find conclusively an absolute 127 00:07:47,360 --> 00:07:50,760 Speaker 1: cause of death. So there's that initial autopsy, which was 128 00:07:50,800 --> 00:07:55,000 Speaker 1: the discovery of the pregnancy. They buried her, then they 129 00:07:55,360 --> 00:07:59,000 Speaker 1: exhumed her and with no luck, they were not able 130 00:07:59,120 --> 00:08:02,520 Speaker 1: to conclude what the cause of death was. I will 131 00:08:02,560 --> 00:08:06,120 Speaker 1: say that they did some toxicology, no poisons found in 132 00:08:06,160 --> 00:08:09,080 Speaker 1: her system, so they're trying to rule things out. But 133 00:08:09,160 --> 00:08:12,160 Speaker 1: what they're left with is water and the lungs in 134 00:08:12,200 --> 00:08:16,160 Speaker 1: this bruise, but no contusions, no nothing else. So you 135 00:08:16,200 --> 00:08:18,600 Speaker 1: can see why this would be really frustrating. I'm not 136 00:08:18,680 --> 00:08:22,080 Speaker 1: just for the attending physician slash medical examiner, but for 137 00:08:22,160 --> 00:08:25,280 Speaker 1: investigators and the prosecutor who is looking at James and 138 00:08:25,320 --> 00:08:27,200 Speaker 1: saying you're the one who did this and is trying 139 00:08:27,200 --> 00:08:28,239 Speaker 1: to put together a case. 140 00:08:28,680 --> 00:08:32,400 Speaker 2: Yeah, you know. And I just question if the pathologists 141 00:08:32,800 --> 00:08:38,320 Speaker 2: was as thorough in knowledge as a modern pathologist. Was 142 00:08:38,360 --> 00:08:42,560 Speaker 2: there you know, subtle patikia that was missed. Well, how 143 00:08:42,600 --> 00:08:47,160 Speaker 2: experienced is this pathologist in this Now you said it's 144 00:08:47,160 --> 00:08:52,359 Speaker 2: a burgeoning town, but how many homicides does this pathologist 145 00:08:53,080 --> 00:08:57,280 Speaker 2: have experience with? How familiar is a pathologist with the 146 00:08:57,400 --> 00:09:02,560 Speaker 2: various signs of the different types of deaths such as 147 00:09:02,720 --> 00:09:08,080 Speaker 2: strangulations such as asphyxia. So you know, right now, I personally, 148 00:09:08,160 --> 00:09:10,600 Speaker 2: right now, with the evidence, I don't think she slipped 149 00:09:10,600 --> 00:09:13,400 Speaker 2: and fell. I don't think this is an accident. I 150 00:09:13,440 --> 00:09:17,240 Speaker 2: don't think this is death by suicide. I think it's 151 00:09:17,440 --> 00:09:23,079 Speaker 2: likely homicide. And with the water and the lungs, the 152 00:09:23,559 --> 00:09:27,480 Speaker 2: ingestion of the muck from the creek bottom, I think 153 00:09:27,520 --> 00:09:31,760 Speaker 2: it's entirely possible that she was held down, her face 154 00:09:32,640 --> 00:09:35,760 Speaker 2: was held underneath the water and pressed up against the 155 00:09:35,760 --> 00:09:36,840 Speaker 2: bottom of the creek bed. 156 00:09:37,320 --> 00:09:39,760 Speaker 1: Okay, well, let's see if you continue to feel like that, 157 00:09:40,320 --> 00:09:45,040 Speaker 1: We're going to go through more circumstantial evidence. The police investigators, 158 00:09:45,480 --> 00:09:47,880 Speaker 1: and I actually say that pretty loosely, there would not 159 00:09:47,960 --> 00:09:51,480 Speaker 1: have been even an organized police force in the eighteen seventies. 160 00:09:51,520 --> 00:09:54,440 Speaker 1: This could have been a constable. This is probably not 161 00:09:54,559 --> 00:09:58,959 Speaker 1: an experienced investigator, but we don't know. So the investigators 162 00:09:59,280 --> 00:10:04,040 Speaker 1: discover that the tie from the crime scene does appear 163 00:10:04,080 --> 00:10:07,400 Speaker 1: to be James's tie, and he's not admitting to this, 164 00:10:07,559 --> 00:10:10,360 Speaker 1: but there are witnesses to say I've seen this tie. Now, 165 00:10:10,520 --> 00:10:12,640 Speaker 1: I mean, they don't have DNA. If he denies it, 166 00:10:12,679 --> 00:10:15,920 Speaker 1: he denies it, and there are other ties floating around, 167 00:10:16,440 --> 00:10:19,520 Speaker 1: but I'm imagining you would think that's significant if we 168 00:10:19,600 --> 00:10:22,760 Speaker 1: can just go ahead and say this is James's tie. 169 00:10:23,200 --> 00:10:25,480 Speaker 2: Yep, I'll go ahead and just make that assumption. 170 00:10:25,800 --> 00:10:29,400 Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, So we now have witnesses and you can 171 00:10:29,400 --> 00:10:31,720 Speaker 1: talk about witnesses because in my head I'm keeping a 172 00:10:31,720 --> 00:10:34,160 Speaker 1: little list of things. And I know we do this 173 00:10:34,240 --> 00:10:36,040 Speaker 1: all the time, but there's a little list of things 174 00:10:36,040 --> 00:10:38,240 Speaker 1: that going through my head of what would be helpful. 175 00:10:39,360 --> 00:10:41,520 Speaker 1: The tools we have now that would have been great, 176 00:10:41,600 --> 00:10:44,640 Speaker 1: that would have turned this from a circumstantial case, Like 177 00:10:44,800 --> 00:10:48,200 Speaker 1: the photography would have been very helpful. Of course, DNA 178 00:10:48,520 --> 00:10:52,040 Speaker 1: for the baby would have been helpful, DNA for the 179 00:10:52,080 --> 00:10:55,120 Speaker 1: tie at the scene would have been helpful. There's you know, 180 00:10:55,640 --> 00:10:57,720 Speaker 1: I mean what you were talking about. A more experienced 181 00:10:57,720 --> 00:11:01,439 Speaker 1: pathologist with petikia, all of that's stuff could have locked 182 00:11:01,559 --> 00:11:03,800 Speaker 1: this case in. But we don't have that, and we 183 00:11:03,920 --> 00:11:06,400 Speaker 1: have to think of that as we are eighteen seventy 184 00:11:06,400 --> 00:11:08,920 Speaker 1: four investigators with limited tools, right. 185 00:11:09,360 --> 00:11:13,640 Speaker 2: Right, you know, And so now the investigation does have 186 00:11:13,760 --> 00:11:18,800 Speaker 2: to establish as good as possible a timeline for Ellen 187 00:11:19,040 --> 00:11:24,640 Speaker 2: and her whereabouts. They also have to establish a timeline 188 00:11:24,760 --> 00:11:30,679 Speaker 2: for James, and then there needs to be an appropriate 189 00:11:30,880 --> 00:11:36,000 Speaker 2: interview of James to get his initial statements, get him 190 00:11:36,080 --> 00:11:39,960 Speaker 2: locked into what he said happened, and then further investigation 191 00:11:40,840 --> 00:11:45,360 Speaker 2: to corroborate or refute what James is saying. And I 192 00:11:45,400 --> 00:11:49,760 Speaker 2: think earlier in the first episode you talked about James 193 00:11:49,760 --> 00:11:52,520 Speaker 2: had an alibi. So it sounds like James made a 194 00:11:52,559 --> 00:11:53,920 Speaker 2: statement he did. 195 00:11:54,160 --> 00:11:57,040 Speaker 1: He maintains his innocence. He says, I have nothing to 196 00:11:57,080 --> 00:11:59,520 Speaker 1: do with it. I finished up at my meat market 197 00:11:59,640 --> 00:12:03,959 Speaker 1: job before seven pm, which he went pretty quickly because 198 00:12:04,000 --> 00:12:06,559 Speaker 1: his boss expected him to be there a lot longer, 199 00:12:07,000 --> 00:12:10,480 Speaker 1: and he went aboard his cousin's schooner, which is a boat. 200 00:12:10,920 --> 00:12:15,720 Speaker 1: That's why they end up finding wet pants on him. 201 00:12:16,440 --> 00:12:20,319 Speaker 1: More circumstantial evidence, but he has an explanation, and his 202 00:12:20,360 --> 00:12:23,520 Speaker 1: cousin says, yeah, he was with me on the schooner 203 00:12:23,600 --> 00:12:27,959 Speaker 1: that night, but he said he had the ability if 204 00:12:27,960 --> 00:12:30,040 Speaker 1: he needed to hop in a boat and go to shore. 205 00:12:30,080 --> 00:12:32,559 Speaker 1: They weren't very far offshore and the cousin went to 206 00:12:32,600 --> 00:12:36,520 Speaker 1: sleep at some point. So you know, there are with 207 00:12:36,679 --> 00:12:41,080 Speaker 1: this alibi of James's, there are chunks of time when 208 00:12:41,160 --> 00:12:44,320 Speaker 1: he could have certainly snuck off and done something and 209 00:12:44,360 --> 00:12:47,080 Speaker 1: then came back and that was it. So you know, 210 00:12:47,160 --> 00:12:49,720 Speaker 1: he has an alibi, but not really and it is 211 00:12:49,720 --> 00:12:53,600 Speaker 1: his family too. And by the way, there's no reliable time. 212 00:12:53,800 --> 00:12:56,840 Speaker 1: Apparently they can't figure out what the time was because 213 00:12:57,160 --> 00:12:59,559 Speaker 1: there was a boatsman who was on the schooner that said, yeah, 214 00:12:59,640 --> 00:13:01,880 Speaker 1: James was there, but he didn't come until later in 215 00:13:01,920 --> 00:13:05,320 Speaker 1: the evening. The cousin was mistaken. So not only do 216 00:13:05,400 --> 00:13:08,760 Speaker 1: we have a difference in when people are saying James 217 00:13:08,800 --> 00:13:11,080 Speaker 1: was on the boat, you know, there's someone who said 218 00:13:11,120 --> 00:13:13,080 Speaker 1: he didn't even come on the boat until way later 219 00:13:13,160 --> 00:13:15,440 Speaker 1: in the evening. I don't know what the cousin's talking about, 220 00:13:15,920 --> 00:13:18,000 Speaker 1: so I don't think this is a reliable alibi. But 221 00:13:18,040 --> 00:13:20,960 Speaker 1: he is giving excuses for why his pants were wet 222 00:13:21,000 --> 00:13:22,360 Speaker 1: and kind of some other stuff. 223 00:13:22,559 --> 00:13:25,160 Speaker 2: Sure, I mean, this is this is so loose. You know, 224 00:13:25,360 --> 00:13:28,280 Speaker 2: right now we don't even know what time Ellen was 225 00:13:28,360 --> 00:13:32,760 Speaker 2: killed at uh And and again this goes to you know, 226 00:13:32,800 --> 00:13:36,839 Speaker 2: how experience is a pathologist. What is he observing that 227 00:13:37,040 --> 00:13:40,240 Speaker 2: could potentially say, you know, she's This is where the 228 00:13:40,280 --> 00:13:43,439 Speaker 2: lividity comes in. This is where rigor mortis comes in. 229 00:13:44,400 --> 00:13:48,000 Speaker 2: You know, observations like that could indicate, Yeah, she's been 230 00:13:48,080 --> 00:13:50,400 Speaker 2: laying there most of the night. You don't, you can't 231 00:13:50,440 --> 00:13:54,040 Speaker 2: pin it down, you know, to precise times versus she 232 00:13:54,120 --> 00:13:56,760 Speaker 2: was killed that morning. You know, this is a fresh body, 233 00:13:57,040 --> 00:13:59,640 Speaker 2: you know, with James. You know, I want to know. Okay, 234 00:13:59,720 --> 00:14:05,559 Speaker 2: so you James had a discussion with Ellen outside at 235 00:14:05,559 --> 00:14:09,520 Speaker 2: this location. Tell me what that discussion was about? And 236 00:14:09,559 --> 00:14:12,120 Speaker 2: then how did that discussion end? And then where did 237 00:14:12,160 --> 00:14:16,320 Speaker 2: you go to from there? And then I want to 238 00:14:16,360 --> 00:14:19,440 Speaker 2: hear from the witnesses who saw you know, Okay, what 239 00:14:19,680 --> 00:14:23,040 Speaker 2: was you know, did they see this interaction? Did anybody 240 00:14:23,160 --> 00:14:27,720 Speaker 2: see Ellen walk away from James? And then why would 241 00:14:27,760 --> 00:14:31,480 Speaker 2: Ellen be out at this location where her body is found? 242 00:14:32,320 --> 00:14:34,880 Speaker 2: This is she meeting up with somebody else? Was she 243 00:14:35,000 --> 00:14:38,880 Speaker 2: abducted off of the street. This is where the canvas 244 00:14:38,920 --> 00:14:42,880 Speaker 2: comes in. Let's try to pin down Ellen's movements as 245 00:14:43,000 --> 00:14:47,160 Speaker 2: much as possible, and then James's timeline as much as possible. 246 00:14:50,800 --> 00:14:54,720 Speaker 1: When investigators start poking around at James's life, they find 247 00:14:54,760 --> 00:14:58,680 Speaker 1: out that he has another woman who he wants to 248 00:14:58,720 --> 00:15:01,480 Speaker 1: be married to, in of course, it's not Ellen. The 249 00:15:01,600 --> 00:15:06,680 Speaker 1: timeline with Ellen is she leaves her mom at seven o'clock, 250 00:15:06,840 --> 00:15:09,760 Speaker 1: The mom sees her go across the street and meet 251 00:15:09,840 --> 00:15:12,880 Speaker 1: up with James. Here's the conversation. So, you know, we 252 00:15:12,960 --> 00:15:15,360 Speaker 1: had kind of what I hell an ear witness. There 253 00:15:15,400 --> 00:15:18,400 Speaker 1: was a woman who was identified as Miss Bassett. She 254 00:15:18,640 --> 00:15:22,160 Speaker 1: was nearby when James and Ellen were having this tense conversation. 255 00:15:22,760 --> 00:15:27,520 Speaker 1: She said she heard Ellen ask James, now you'll be there, 256 00:15:27,760 --> 00:15:31,200 Speaker 1: won't you, And then she said James responded reluctantly that 257 00:15:31,240 --> 00:15:34,840 Speaker 1: he would be there, and she said, Ellen then said 258 00:15:34,960 --> 00:15:38,720 Speaker 1: if you are not there, you know what the consequences 259 00:15:39,000 --> 00:15:42,080 Speaker 1: will be. So what is she threatening him with exposure 260 00:15:42,120 --> 00:15:44,080 Speaker 1: for getting her pregnant when she's unmarried? 261 00:15:44,600 --> 00:15:47,360 Speaker 2: Yeah? I think you know as well as I do. 262 00:15:47,480 --> 00:15:51,000 Speaker 2: You know this timeframe with this eighteen year old woman 263 00:15:51,000 --> 00:15:55,120 Speaker 2: who's pregnant, if she's hiding the pregnancy, you know that 264 00:15:55,840 --> 00:15:58,720 Speaker 2: sounds like if James is the father, you know, she's 265 00:15:58,800 --> 00:16:02,120 Speaker 2: protecting the both of them, and now she's using the 266 00:16:02,640 --> 00:16:07,040 Speaker 2: exposure of that as a threat in order to ensure 267 00:16:07,120 --> 00:16:10,320 Speaker 2: that James is going to show up for the wedding. Now, 268 00:16:10,480 --> 00:16:14,480 Speaker 2: remind me, isn't it. We've talked about this before where women. 269 00:16:14,360 --> 00:16:16,160 Speaker 1: Have heartbaum lawsuits. 270 00:16:16,400 --> 00:16:20,400 Speaker 2: That's it. Yes, and what remind me how is that 271 00:16:21,240 --> 00:16:22,880 Speaker 2: what are the scenarios for that? 272 00:16:23,520 --> 00:16:26,840 Speaker 1: So the argument that a woman would make is what 273 00:16:26,880 --> 00:16:30,000 Speaker 1: would happen often is a woman was not supposed to 274 00:16:30,040 --> 00:16:34,160 Speaker 1: have sex before marriage. The men would propose to have sex, 275 00:16:34,760 --> 00:16:38,120 Speaker 1: and then when the guy was done with her forever 276 00:16:38,200 --> 00:16:41,640 Speaker 1: long that was months or whatever, then he would leave 277 00:16:41,680 --> 00:16:45,400 Speaker 1: her and leave her in society's eyes, very sullied. She 278 00:16:45,440 --> 00:16:47,240 Speaker 1: would not be able to get married again, or if 279 00:16:47,240 --> 00:16:49,120 Speaker 1: she did, it wouldn't have been to a pall holes. 280 00:16:49,160 --> 00:16:52,239 Speaker 1: It would have been to a lesser man. And therefore 281 00:16:52,640 --> 00:16:56,200 Speaker 1: your personal equity as a woman has gone down in 282 00:16:56,280 --> 00:17:00,880 Speaker 1: eighteen seventies society. So you could sue by saying you 283 00:17:00,960 --> 00:17:03,680 Speaker 1: lied to me, you tricked me. I had sex with 284 00:17:03,760 --> 00:17:05,760 Speaker 1: you because we were going to be married, and therefore 285 00:17:05,840 --> 00:17:09,240 Speaker 1: it's not really breaking the law because we're you know, together, 286 00:17:09,720 --> 00:17:11,640 Speaker 1: And so you could turn around and sue, and women 287 00:17:11,680 --> 00:17:14,240 Speaker 1: got a lot of money. I mean, in one of 288 00:17:14,280 --> 00:17:16,960 Speaker 1: my books, one of the most famous detectives in Oscar 289 00:17:17,000 --> 00:17:20,320 Speaker 1: Heinrich's book was being sued during the time of all 290 00:17:20,400 --> 00:17:22,600 Speaker 1: these stories, and in nineteen twenty five he was being 291 00:17:22,640 --> 00:17:24,639 Speaker 1: sued by a woman who claimed that's what happened. It 292 00:17:24,920 --> 00:17:26,760 Speaker 1: happened all the time, and it was a really big 293 00:17:26,840 --> 00:17:27,640 Speaker 1: threat to men. 294 00:17:28,000 --> 00:17:31,719 Speaker 2: And that could be exactly the consequence that Ellen is 295 00:17:31,840 --> 00:17:33,600 Speaker 2: threatening James with yep. 296 00:17:33,920 --> 00:17:35,879 Speaker 1: And I think that's what's scary about this. You know, 297 00:17:36,000 --> 00:17:39,280 Speaker 1: now we don't see Ellen after this conversation with James. 298 00:17:39,320 --> 00:17:42,080 Speaker 1: We don't know where she went. We don't know if 299 00:17:42,119 --> 00:17:46,320 Speaker 1: he said let's go talk privately. One of Ellen's brothers 300 00:17:46,440 --> 00:17:51,080 Speaker 1: said that he saw James very close to the cedars, 301 00:17:51,119 --> 00:17:53,400 Speaker 1: which is where she was ultimately found. None of these 302 00:17:53,400 --> 00:17:56,280 Speaker 1: places are far apart. Her house is not far from, 303 00:17:56,560 --> 00:17:58,520 Speaker 1: you know, a couple of blocks away from where they met. 304 00:17:58,760 --> 00:18:02,480 Speaker 1: The cedars is very close to her house. So if 305 00:18:02,480 --> 00:18:04,800 Speaker 1: he is responsible for this, he didn't take her very far. 306 00:18:05,000 --> 00:18:07,919 Speaker 1: But he did take her in a remote wooded area. 307 00:18:08,600 --> 00:18:12,879 Speaker 1: So one of the sisters of Ellen said she saw 308 00:18:13,040 --> 00:18:16,800 Speaker 1: him moving pretty quickly toward the brook that night. But 309 00:18:16,880 --> 00:18:20,200 Speaker 1: these are her family members who hated him even before 310 00:18:20,320 --> 00:18:23,960 Speaker 1: she ended up dead. How much do we trust these witnesses? 311 00:18:24,040 --> 00:18:26,320 Speaker 1: I trust miss Bassett because it doesn't sound like she 312 00:18:26,359 --> 00:18:28,919 Speaker 1: has a dog in the fight. Who overheard the conversation, 313 00:18:29,240 --> 00:18:32,360 Speaker 1: this specific conversation, The best witness we have by far. 314 00:18:32,880 --> 00:18:34,800 Speaker 1: But the family members, I don't know. 315 00:18:35,200 --> 00:18:38,320 Speaker 2: No, you have to consider that they have a bias 316 00:18:38,320 --> 00:18:43,000 Speaker 2: against James, so you have to take their statements with 317 00:18:43,080 --> 00:18:45,520 Speaker 2: a great assault, you know. But that's just where now 318 00:18:45,800 --> 00:18:50,880 Speaker 2: that they're making statements, and it's evaluating those statements against 319 00:18:51,200 --> 00:18:54,639 Speaker 2: you know, the other witnesses and the evidence in the case, 320 00:18:55,520 --> 00:18:58,600 Speaker 2: this location where Ellen's body is found, this does not 321 00:18:58,760 --> 00:19:03,359 Speaker 2: sound like the local that she would have decided to 322 00:19:03,400 --> 00:19:06,360 Speaker 2: go for a walk in that night. She's not dressed 323 00:19:06,400 --> 00:19:10,400 Speaker 2: for that, you know. So this is where the crime 324 00:19:10,440 --> 00:19:13,400 Speaker 2: scene processing upfront. You don't know when you originally get 325 00:19:13,400 --> 00:19:16,440 Speaker 2: out to a crime scene, You don't know the story, 326 00:19:16,480 --> 00:19:19,320 Speaker 2: You don't know what really happened, and so you have 327 00:19:19,440 --> 00:19:23,560 Speaker 2: to be so observant. And I mentioned early on paying 328 00:19:23,600 --> 00:19:30,080 Speaker 2: attention to evidence of ingress and egress anytime, could be indoors, 329 00:19:30,280 --> 00:19:33,280 Speaker 2: be outdoors, you have to look for that. Does it 330 00:19:33,560 --> 00:19:37,000 Speaker 2: look like some two people are walking side by side 331 00:19:37,160 --> 00:19:41,040 Speaker 2: like it's a voluntary act. Is it possible, you know, 332 00:19:41,480 --> 00:19:46,560 Speaker 2: James pulls a knife and forces Ellen back here, you know, 333 00:19:46,680 --> 00:19:49,159 Speaker 2: and he doesn't use a knife to kill her, you know, 334 00:19:49,359 --> 00:19:52,399 Speaker 2: or is he just so intimidating to Ellen that he 335 00:19:52,480 --> 00:19:56,720 Speaker 2: could just command her you're coming with me. How is 336 00:19:56,760 --> 00:20:00,880 Speaker 2: this tie being employed? You know, does he take control 337 00:20:00,960 --> 00:20:03,919 Speaker 2: of her, bind her up and push her back to 338 00:20:03,960 --> 00:20:07,920 Speaker 2: this location. There's ways to be able to see, at 339 00:20:08,040 --> 00:20:10,360 Speaker 2: least with some of the evidence, you know, the shoe 340 00:20:10,400 --> 00:20:16,000 Speaker 2: impression evidence, This ingress doesn't sound like she was carried 341 00:20:16,040 --> 00:20:18,960 Speaker 2: back there, you know, like she had been knocked out 342 00:20:19,000 --> 00:20:23,600 Speaker 2: and carried back there. Then the evidence of the struggle, 343 00:20:24,240 --> 00:20:27,040 Speaker 2: you know, what is that showing? You know, So this 344 00:20:27,080 --> 00:20:30,120 Speaker 2: is just where you know, when you first get involved 345 00:20:30,200 --> 00:20:32,800 Speaker 2: with with a case and not knowing you know, the 346 00:20:32,880 --> 00:20:36,359 Speaker 2: details of the investigation until later, you have to pay 347 00:20:36,400 --> 00:20:40,199 Speaker 2: attention to all of this and then see as the 348 00:20:40,200 --> 00:20:46,080 Speaker 2: investigation unfolds, see what is actually correlating with the crime scene, 349 00:20:46,240 --> 00:20:50,280 Speaker 2: with the crime scene evidence, with the autopsy, with witness statements. 350 00:20:50,960 --> 00:20:53,919 Speaker 2: At this point we have big holes and that we 351 00:20:54,200 --> 00:20:56,520 Speaker 2: probably aren't going to be able to fill in in 352 00:20:56,640 --> 00:21:00,160 Speaker 2: terms of the information that's needed to figure out out. 353 00:21:00,280 --> 00:21:07,160 Speaker 2: But fundamentally, this type of homicide takes minutes. So James 354 00:21:07,200 --> 00:21:13,040 Speaker 2: forcing Alan back to this somewhat secluded creek area, holding 355 00:21:13,080 --> 00:21:15,160 Speaker 2: her down in the creed, you know, having a struggle, 356 00:21:15,200 --> 00:21:17,800 Speaker 2: holding her down in the creek bed and then getting 357 00:21:17,840 --> 00:21:22,800 Speaker 2: out onto the cousin's schooner. Absolutely possible. He has no 358 00:21:23,119 --> 00:21:25,360 Speaker 2: alibi as far as I'm concerned. 359 00:21:25,600 --> 00:21:29,040 Speaker 1: No, no real alibi. And weird stuff. His ties there, 360 00:21:29,200 --> 00:21:33,040 Speaker 1: his leg pants are wet. They say something funny. They 361 00:21:33,080 --> 00:21:37,760 Speaker 1: find a fiber on his pants that matches Ellen Shawl, 362 00:21:37,880 --> 00:21:41,920 Speaker 1: and I just thought, who cares? I mean, that's I mean, yeah, 363 00:21:42,000 --> 00:21:44,760 Speaker 1: I mean I appreciate the effort, but I don't hope 364 00:21:44,760 --> 00:21:47,600 Speaker 1: they're really trying to do some forensics here that I 365 00:21:47,600 --> 00:21:49,280 Speaker 1: don't think are necessary. 366 00:21:49,600 --> 00:21:51,440 Speaker 2: No, you know, and I think, you know, part of 367 00:21:51,520 --> 00:21:54,119 Speaker 2: what I would be looking at, like with James's pants 368 00:21:54,359 --> 00:21:56,399 Speaker 2: and his clothing in general, if he still has a 369 00:21:56,440 --> 00:21:59,719 Speaker 2: clothing on that he had on the night before. Is 370 00:21:59,800 --> 00:22:03,840 Speaker 2: there where you know, the botanical debris that's caught up 371 00:22:03,840 --> 00:22:07,760 Speaker 2: in his clothing that matches the location at the creek bed? 372 00:22:08,200 --> 00:22:11,440 Speaker 2: So is this a freshwater creek? Is it brackish? Is 373 00:22:11,480 --> 00:22:15,199 Speaker 2: it saltwater? I'm assuming the cousin and James on the 374 00:22:15,240 --> 00:22:18,560 Speaker 2: schooner is going out into the ocean, yep. Is there 375 00:22:18,800 --> 00:22:21,919 Speaker 2: something that the mud at the creek bed area is 376 00:22:21,920 --> 00:22:24,760 Speaker 2: at present on his clothing? I would be trying to 377 00:22:24,880 --> 00:22:29,119 Speaker 2: tie James to that environment where Ellen's body was found. 378 00:22:29,760 --> 00:22:32,000 Speaker 1: They tried that, and I think the issue is is, 379 00:22:32,040 --> 00:22:34,040 Speaker 1: you know, he said, I went out on the schooner. 380 00:22:34,080 --> 00:22:37,280 Speaker 1: You right, salty water. The creek bed also has salty 381 00:22:37,320 --> 00:22:40,320 Speaker 1: water because it's coming off of the ocean. So I mean, 382 00:22:40,359 --> 00:22:42,120 Speaker 1: they were saying, oh my gosh, this is a big deal, 383 00:22:42,119 --> 00:22:43,520 Speaker 1: and I thought, yeah. But he says he's on the 384 00:22:43,720 --> 00:22:45,679 Speaker 1: That's how his pants got wet. He said, I was 385 00:22:45,720 --> 00:22:48,840 Speaker 1: in that water, just not that water. Let me ask 386 00:22:48,880 --> 00:22:52,119 Speaker 1: you this, what if James said, and this is not 387 00:22:52,200 --> 00:22:54,919 Speaker 1: what he says, but what if James said, listen, I 388 00:22:54,960 --> 00:22:59,200 Speaker 1: went down there. We got into an argument. She ran, tripped, fell, 389 00:22:59,720 --> 00:23:02,879 Speaker 1: hit head, drowned. I got scared, I took off. And 390 00:23:02,960 --> 00:23:06,880 Speaker 1: if that were true, what would the consequences be for James, 391 00:23:07,200 --> 00:23:11,600 Speaker 1: Because they could say he was down there circumstances look bad. 392 00:23:12,160 --> 00:23:15,800 Speaker 1: But can't he just say, listen, she freaked out, it 393 00:23:15,840 --> 00:23:17,320 Speaker 1: was in the middle of the night, she ran off 394 00:23:17,359 --> 00:23:20,159 Speaker 1: and sorry, I didn't go down there. But they can't 395 00:23:20,200 --> 00:23:21,400 Speaker 1: say he murdered her. 396 00:23:21,520 --> 00:23:23,960 Speaker 2: Right, Well, this is where the devil is in the 397 00:23:23,960 --> 00:23:27,200 Speaker 2: details in his statements relative to what's at the crime scene. 398 00:23:27,440 --> 00:23:29,480 Speaker 2: You know, if he's making a statement, we got into 399 00:23:29,520 --> 00:23:34,080 Speaker 2: an argument. Okay, describe this argument. Was it physical? How 400 00:23:34,119 --> 00:23:37,680 Speaker 2: did that physical aspect to the argument to go? If 401 00:23:37,680 --> 00:23:40,200 Speaker 2: he's going, no, you know, we just were standing there. 402 00:23:40,800 --> 00:23:43,439 Speaker 2: We were just you know, getting into an argument, and 403 00:23:43,480 --> 00:23:46,280 Speaker 2: then you know she she flipped out and ran and 404 00:23:46,600 --> 00:23:49,360 Speaker 2: tripped and fell. Well, then the crime scene would kind 405 00:23:49,359 --> 00:23:53,120 Speaker 2: of show sort of this stagnant area. Let's say there's 406 00:23:53,240 --> 00:23:56,680 Speaker 2: a little bit of the plant material that's crushed down, 407 00:23:57,320 --> 00:24:00,840 Speaker 2: but there isn't let's say, sliding true impression as somebody, 408 00:24:00,880 --> 00:24:03,080 Speaker 2: you know, as you see two people that are fighting, 409 00:24:03,640 --> 00:24:07,080 Speaker 2: and so that's where I would be wanting to correlate. Okay, 410 00:24:07,119 --> 00:24:10,800 Speaker 2: what truly was observed at the crime scene? Does it 411 00:24:10,880 --> 00:24:14,560 Speaker 2: look like true combat? And if James is just saying no, 412 00:24:14,640 --> 00:24:17,639 Speaker 2: there was anything like that, then now I'm able to 413 00:24:17,680 --> 00:24:21,960 Speaker 2: refute that statement. He's lying, and so that will start 414 00:24:22,040 --> 00:24:25,000 Speaker 2: stacking as he lies more and more and can be 415 00:24:25,040 --> 00:24:30,000 Speaker 2: refuted with the evidence. Now he paints himself into a corner, 416 00:24:30,320 --> 00:24:34,080 Speaker 2: and this is where you start building that circumstantial case. 417 00:24:34,320 --> 00:24:38,520 Speaker 1: Boy, let's talk about circumstantial cases moving forward. James does 418 00:24:38,560 --> 00:24:41,880 Speaker 1: not look good. But I don't know if this points 419 00:24:41,920 --> 00:24:45,119 Speaker 1: to him being a murderer. Let me tell you what 420 00:24:45,160 --> 00:24:48,359 Speaker 1: he did. There were witnesses who come forward who testify 421 00:24:48,560 --> 00:24:53,000 Speaker 1: who say James bought packages and vials of arsenic strych 422 00:24:53,080 --> 00:24:57,240 Speaker 1: nine and prissick acid before her death. Now, none of 423 00:24:57,240 --> 00:25:00,240 Speaker 1: these show up on the toxicology report, but he did 424 00:25:00,280 --> 00:25:04,160 Speaker 1: that he had hidden them in his work shoes which 425 00:25:04,200 --> 00:25:07,119 Speaker 1: were stored at the meat market. And of course the 426 00:25:07,160 --> 00:25:10,600 Speaker 1: police are saying that James purchased them to give them 427 00:25:10,640 --> 00:25:14,320 Speaker 1: to Ellen under the guys that he would induce an abortion, 428 00:25:15,000 --> 00:25:17,920 Speaker 1: and then in her state of weakness, he held her 429 00:25:18,000 --> 00:25:21,480 Speaker 1: fast by the wrists till she died in the stream. 430 00:25:21,800 --> 00:25:24,320 Speaker 1: And this is not the first story you and certainly 431 00:25:24,320 --> 00:25:28,760 Speaker 1: not I have talked about where a botched abortion turns 432 00:25:28,800 --> 00:25:31,639 Speaker 1: to murder. But that's what the theory is right now. 433 00:25:32,000 --> 00:25:35,520 Speaker 2: You know, is there any evidence that these purchase poisons 434 00:25:35,560 --> 00:25:39,439 Speaker 2: had been any consumption of it in terms of, you know, 435 00:25:39,480 --> 00:25:42,399 Speaker 2: some of the materials missing from what he originally purchased. 436 00:25:42,960 --> 00:25:45,679 Speaker 2: I am skeptical that the toxicology test back in the 437 00:25:45,760 --> 00:25:48,679 Speaker 2: day would be very sensitive, you know, so as it 438 00:25:48,720 --> 00:25:52,200 Speaker 2: possible that she had been poisoned and just in her 439 00:25:52,240 --> 00:25:56,440 Speaker 2: body is at a level that the eighteen seventies toxicology 440 00:25:56,480 --> 00:25:58,080 Speaker 2: tests would not be able to detect. 441 00:25:58,320 --> 00:26:00,760 Speaker 1: And it doesn't matter because it sounds like she drowned. 442 00:26:00,800 --> 00:26:02,480 Speaker 1: I mean, all that stuff is in her stomach, in 443 00:26:02,520 --> 00:26:03,080 Speaker 1: her lungs. 444 00:26:03,560 --> 00:26:05,960 Speaker 2: I think, you know, in terms of you know, the 445 00:26:06,480 --> 00:26:10,080 Speaker 2: cause of death, but the motive and if there is 446 00:26:10,119 --> 00:26:13,080 Speaker 2: an employment of a poison, and even though the poison 447 00:26:13,080 --> 00:26:18,840 Speaker 2: doesn't kill Ellen, that is a significant act that the 448 00:26:19,359 --> 00:26:24,080 Speaker 2: offender is doing leading up to committing the violence against Ellen. 449 00:26:24,760 --> 00:26:27,000 Speaker 2: So that would be something that has to be taken 450 00:26:27,040 --> 00:26:31,119 Speaker 2: into consideration in terms of evaluating james involvement. Now, of 451 00:26:31,160 --> 00:26:34,320 Speaker 2: course you have to prove the actual act of homicide. 452 00:26:34,920 --> 00:26:37,439 Speaker 2: But this is where, now, okay, you start taking a 453 00:26:37,480 --> 00:26:40,520 Speaker 2: look at some of these circumstances in James. Well, he's 454 00:26:40,520 --> 00:26:43,320 Speaker 2: buying poisons ahead of time. Is it to really induce 455 00:26:43,359 --> 00:26:45,720 Speaker 2: abortion or is it just to kill Ellen? Because he's 456 00:26:45,720 --> 00:26:48,639 Speaker 2: got this other woman on the side, right yep, you know, 457 00:26:48,800 --> 00:26:50,880 Speaker 2: so maybe he's just trying to get out of one 458 00:26:50,920 --> 00:26:54,080 Speaker 2: relationship and into another relationship. And we see this time 459 00:26:54,119 --> 00:26:57,719 Speaker 2: and time again where instead of saying we're done and 460 00:26:57,760 --> 00:27:01,439 Speaker 2: you part ways, homicide and in order for somebody to 461 00:27:01,440 --> 00:27:03,800 Speaker 2: gain freedom to move on with their life. And I 462 00:27:03,880 --> 00:27:05,879 Speaker 2: go back to that little thing that I you know, 463 00:27:05,920 --> 00:27:08,159 Speaker 2: filed away at you know, at the very beginning of 464 00:27:08,160 --> 00:27:11,280 Speaker 2: the episode, James had another woman in his life who 465 00:27:11,280 --> 00:27:14,520 Speaker 2: he is about to be married to, and she died 466 00:27:14,600 --> 00:27:16,240 Speaker 2: under mysterious circumstances. 467 00:27:16,440 --> 00:27:16,680 Speaker 1: Yeah. 468 00:27:16,760 --> 00:27:19,240 Speaker 2: And also there's a little bit of a pattern that 469 00:27:19,320 --> 00:27:20,120 Speaker 2: is developing with. 470 00:27:20,119 --> 00:27:23,600 Speaker 1: James, and I agree. And so now I'll do a 471 00:27:23,640 --> 00:27:27,800 Speaker 1: trigger warning specifically for my daughter Ella, who is very 472 00:27:27,840 --> 00:27:31,760 Speaker 1: sensitive to animals dying. She actually, Paul, I don't think 473 00:27:31,760 --> 00:27:35,120 Speaker 1: you probably have never heard of this website. It's called 474 00:27:35,160 --> 00:27:38,159 Speaker 1: doesthdogde dot com. You could plug in the name of 475 00:27:38,240 --> 00:27:41,320 Speaker 1: any movie and it will tell you whether or not 476 00:27:41,480 --> 00:27:44,520 Speaker 1: the animal dies in the movie. Like the mag she 477 00:27:44,560 --> 00:27:47,240 Speaker 1: could care less about people being eaten, but she does 478 00:27:47,320 --> 00:27:49,479 Speaker 1: not want to see a dog die. Do you care 479 00:27:49,520 --> 00:27:50,600 Speaker 1: about the animals dying and. 480 00:27:50,600 --> 00:27:53,320 Speaker 2: Move I do, Oh, well, of course. And my youngest 481 00:27:53,400 --> 00:27:57,679 Speaker 2: daughter was very very sensitive to that as well. You know, 482 00:27:57,840 --> 00:28:01,200 Speaker 2: just any animal in the movie that you know ended 483 00:28:01,280 --> 00:28:04,840 Speaker 2: up meeting a bad fate, coming to having a bad fate. Yeah, 484 00:28:04,880 --> 00:28:11,280 Speaker 2: she would just burst out into tears. Okay, so you're 485 00:28:11,560 --> 00:28:14,200 Speaker 2: about to tell me about an animal. 486 00:28:14,400 --> 00:28:19,000 Speaker 1: Two what were called unsubstantiated rumors, but I absolutely believe. 487 00:28:19,400 --> 00:28:23,760 Speaker 1: One is that neighbors said that around the time of 488 00:28:23,840 --> 00:28:28,000 Speaker 1: her death, of Ellen's death, about five or six cats 489 00:28:28,000 --> 00:28:32,119 Speaker 1: in the neighborhood where he worked died, and it was 490 00:28:32,240 --> 00:28:35,320 Speaker 1: believed that he was using because he was storing all 491 00:28:35,400 --> 00:28:38,080 Speaker 1: this poison at his work, he was using the poison 492 00:28:38,600 --> 00:28:41,479 Speaker 1: to experiment on the cats, you know, to see And 493 00:28:41,520 --> 00:28:43,520 Speaker 1: We've talked about this before, and I've talked to other 494 00:28:43,600 --> 00:28:46,680 Speaker 1: people about it, people you know, experimenting on animals to 495 00:28:46,720 --> 00:28:49,160 Speaker 1: get the effect right, But that doesn't fit in with 496 00:28:49,200 --> 00:28:52,680 Speaker 1: the abortion narrative. So now I'm confused of what he 497 00:28:52,720 --> 00:28:54,000 Speaker 1: wants to do with this poison. 498 00:28:54,560 --> 00:28:57,200 Speaker 2: I think he wants to kill Ellen with the poison. Yeah, no, 499 00:28:57,800 --> 00:29:00,840 Speaker 2: I don't think it's abortion. And there's a case in 500 00:29:00,880 --> 00:29:04,800 Speaker 2: my jurisdiction that I had very minimal involvement with, but 501 00:29:04,960 --> 00:29:10,400 Speaker 2: it was this same scenario where husband has a pregnant 502 00:29:10,400 --> 00:29:14,360 Speaker 2: wife ends up having a girlfriend. They scheme to kill 503 00:29:14,400 --> 00:29:16,440 Speaker 2: the pregnant wife and the initial part of the scheme 504 00:29:16,560 --> 00:29:20,720 Speaker 2: was to poison her. And how did they experiment on 505 00:29:20,840 --> 00:29:21,280 Speaker 2: the cat? 506 00:29:21,440 --> 00:29:21,959 Speaker 1: It's awful. 507 00:29:22,040 --> 00:29:26,440 Speaker 2: This is something that happened back in the early nineties 508 00:29:27,320 --> 00:29:30,479 Speaker 2: in the East Bay, California, and this is something that 509 00:29:30,560 --> 00:29:34,320 Speaker 2: was going on back in the eighteen seventies, you know, 510 00:29:34,520 --> 00:29:37,840 Speaker 2: So this is history repeats itself. 511 00:29:38,160 --> 00:29:41,000 Speaker 1: Well, and I'll tell you, even though her body did 512 00:29:41,000 --> 00:29:44,720 Speaker 1: not show evidence of poisoning, let's just assume that there 513 00:29:44,760 --> 00:29:47,240 Speaker 1: really was no poison It sounds to me like he 514 00:29:47,280 --> 00:29:51,080 Speaker 1: either chickened out or she called his bluff pretty quick 515 00:29:51,320 --> 00:29:54,280 Speaker 1: based on that conversation. So maybe what he would have 516 00:29:54,320 --> 00:29:57,560 Speaker 1: preferred was to poison her less, you know, hands on, 517 00:29:58,320 --> 00:30:01,080 Speaker 1: and instead they got up to the wedding date and 518 00:30:01,120 --> 00:30:04,120 Speaker 1: she said, you're gonna do this. You're not gonna publicly 519 00:30:04,200 --> 00:30:07,120 Speaker 1: humiliate me. I'm seven months pregnant. You've pushed this as 520 00:30:07,160 --> 00:30:10,120 Speaker 1: far as you can. I'm gonna give birth soon. You're 521 00:30:10,160 --> 00:30:13,360 Speaker 1: gonna marry me, or you're gonna pay a price, And 522 00:30:13,440 --> 00:30:15,440 Speaker 1: that was enough to send him over the edge and 523 00:30:15,520 --> 00:30:18,760 Speaker 1: poison went out the window. And this is how he 524 00:30:18,800 --> 00:30:20,840 Speaker 1: gets her down. I don't know if he says to her, 525 00:30:21,160 --> 00:30:23,160 Speaker 1: you know, let's go talk privately. You're kind of having 526 00:30:23,200 --> 00:30:25,840 Speaker 1: a hissy fit in the middle of the town square, 527 00:30:25,960 --> 00:30:28,440 Speaker 1: and that's how he gets her down there. Does that 528 00:30:28,520 --> 00:30:31,280 Speaker 1: scenario make sense to you. We just don't know, of 529 00:30:31,280 --> 00:30:32,440 Speaker 1: course right now. 530 00:30:32,480 --> 00:30:34,920 Speaker 2: That is my primary theory. I think you hit it 531 00:30:35,000 --> 00:30:38,680 Speaker 2: right on the head. There seems to be enough churn 532 00:30:38,840 --> 00:30:45,880 Speaker 2: in James's background that he was likely thinking of killing 533 00:30:45,920 --> 00:30:50,680 Speaker 2: Ellen using the poison and then resorted to plan b 534 00:30:51,000 --> 00:30:54,480 Speaker 2: whether that was that night in the heat of the moment, 535 00:30:54,640 --> 00:30:57,960 Speaker 2: or whether he had recognized he needs to do something 536 00:30:58,280 --> 00:31:02,440 Speaker 2: besides poisoning ahead of time. And you know, was this 537 00:31:02,920 --> 00:31:06,200 Speaker 2: a planned meeting that it was James the one that said, hey, 538 00:31:06,840 --> 00:31:10,720 Speaker 2: let's talk, and he goes over to where Ellen's at 539 00:31:11,000 --> 00:31:13,880 Speaker 2: and Ellen goes out to meet him to have this conversation. 540 00:31:14,920 --> 00:31:19,000 Speaker 2: James could have initiated that with the intentness of separating 541 00:31:19,120 --> 00:31:22,920 Speaker 2: Ellen and taking her. Maybe he pre selected this creek 542 00:31:22,960 --> 00:31:26,040 Speaker 2: location and taking her out there and killing her there. 543 00:31:26,600 --> 00:31:29,200 Speaker 1: That makes sense to me. He sounds like an awful 544 00:31:29,280 --> 00:31:33,240 Speaker 1: person because his first wife, not the dead woman he 545 00:31:33,320 --> 00:31:36,320 Speaker 1: was engaged to, but the wife who got away obviously, 546 00:31:37,040 --> 00:31:40,720 Speaker 1: whose name is Missus Wheeler. She comes forward and says 547 00:31:40,760 --> 00:31:43,960 Speaker 1: that he was just a terrible person. She said that 548 00:31:44,080 --> 00:31:47,640 Speaker 1: she considered her life in constant peril and that his 549 00:31:47,760 --> 00:31:53,720 Speaker 1: cruelty even to dumb animals challenged crudelity. Is this important 550 00:31:53,880 --> 00:31:56,600 Speaker 1: to hear? I guess my note with this was it 551 00:31:56,680 --> 00:31:58,520 Speaker 1: sounds like he was a jerk. It sounds like he 552 00:31:58,600 --> 00:32:01,640 Speaker 1: was bad to animals. But it is her ex husband, 553 00:32:01,760 --> 00:32:04,400 Speaker 1: and she's taking the stand, and she doesn't know anything 554 00:32:04,440 --> 00:32:08,520 Speaker 1: about what happened with Ellen. How is it relevant except 555 00:32:08,560 --> 00:32:11,800 Speaker 1: to say that this guy was a lousy husband and 556 00:32:11,800 --> 00:32:14,239 Speaker 1: probably would have been a lousy husband for Ellen if 557 00:32:14,280 --> 00:32:16,520 Speaker 1: I'm the defense attorney here well. 558 00:32:16,400 --> 00:32:19,480 Speaker 2: In terms of their relationship and her experience. Is it 559 00:32:19,560 --> 00:32:23,400 Speaker 2: relevant to the homicide of Ellen. No, in terms of 560 00:32:24,040 --> 00:32:29,520 Speaker 2: proving the case of homicide of Ellen's homicide. However, it's 561 00:32:29,680 --> 00:32:32,000 Speaker 2: very important, you know, Like for me in terms of 562 00:32:32,040 --> 00:32:37,000 Speaker 2: assessing James as an offender. I think I've talked about 563 00:32:37,040 --> 00:32:43,719 Speaker 2: before this predictors of violence, which you know everybody, you know, 564 00:32:43,920 --> 00:32:46,560 Speaker 2: everybody's kind of heard of the serial killer triad. You know, 565 00:32:46,680 --> 00:32:53,000 Speaker 2: bed wedding fire setting and animal cruelty. Might put no 566 00:32:53,080 --> 00:32:56,200 Speaker 2: stock in bed wedding fire setting. It depends on this 567 00:32:56,360 --> 00:33:00,920 Speaker 2: the scenario in which that person is utilizing. Is that 568 00:33:01,040 --> 00:33:04,000 Speaker 2: a predictor of violence against another person? But if you 569 00:33:04,160 --> 00:33:10,840 Speaker 2: are somebody that is torturing and killing animals, you're one 570 00:33:10,920 --> 00:33:13,520 Speaker 2: step away from doing that to a person. To me, 571 00:33:13,720 --> 00:33:18,920 Speaker 2: that is the biggest predictor of all. So if James 572 00:33:19,080 --> 00:33:21,040 Speaker 2: has a history, of course I'd want to know, well, 573 00:33:21,040 --> 00:33:25,239 Speaker 2: what is he doing, you know, to these animals? You know, 574 00:33:25,280 --> 00:33:29,080 Speaker 2: this is just where you know, this tells me a 575 00:33:29,160 --> 00:33:33,480 Speaker 2: lot that Okay, Now, this pattern that I've am seeing 576 00:33:33,520 --> 00:33:37,200 Speaker 2: with James and his past relationships. You know, you've got 577 00:33:37,360 --> 00:33:39,760 Speaker 2: the woman who died under mysterious circumstances that he was 578 00:33:39,800 --> 00:33:42,680 Speaker 2: about to be married to. Now you've got a former 579 00:33:42,720 --> 00:33:47,160 Speaker 2: wife saying he's an essence, he's abusive, he's cruel to animals. 580 00:33:48,640 --> 00:33:51,200 Speaker 2: And then now we have allan dying the night before 581 00:33:51,360 --> 00:33:57,200 Speaker 2: their wedding. You know, this all is so informative that James. 582 00:33:57,480 --> 00:34:00,160 Speaker 2: I'm on the right track and thinking James is likely 583 00:34:00,720 --> 00:34:03,240 Speaker 2: the one that killed Ellen. And now it's okay, we 584 00:34:03,320 --> 00:34:06,680 Speaker 2: have to see does the evidence show that, you know, 585 00:34:06,680 --> 00:34:10,200 Speaker 2: whether it be physical evidence and or circumstantial evidence. Is 586 00:34:10,239 --> 00:34:14,120 Speaker 2: there a case in which now twelve people will say, yes, 587 00:34:14,719 --> 00:34:18,759 Speaker 2: you know, we believe that James is responsible for Ellen's homicide. 588 00:34:19,160 --> 00:34:21,360 Speaker 1: Well, we're at the end of the evidence. There was 589 00:34:21,400 --> 00:34:25,560 Speaker 1: an unsubstantiated rumor that he had cut the paws of 590 00:34:25,600 --> 00:34:29,279 Speaker 1: a dog and stuck them in turpentine to torture the dog. 591 00:34:29,600 --> 00:34:32,959 Speaker 1: But that also could have been sensationalized reporting. I also 592 00:34:33,040 --> 00:34:36,960 Speaker 1: probably wouldn't put it past James. He sounds sadistic to me. 593 00:34:37,360 --> 00:34:39,040 Speaker 1: What do you think about that? I mean, it's just 594 00:34:39,160 --> 00:34:41,240 Speaker 1: more evidence if it's true. 595 00:34:41,920 --> 00:34:45,040 Speaker 2: Well, most early is a sadistic act, you know, and 596 00:34:45,360 --> 00:34:50,520 Speaker 2: we're not seeing at least physical sadism against what happened 597 00:34:50,520 --> 00:34:55,200 Speaker 2: to Ellen that night right now. This type of animal cruelty, though, 598 00:34:55,320 --> 00:35:01,959 Speaker 2: speaks to a psychological aspect of James that is getting gratification, 599 00:35:02,719 --> 00:35:06,920 Speaker 2: you know, of from torturing this this innocent animal. Is 600 00:35:07,120 --> 00:35:11,960 Speaker 2: James doing some sadistic acts, whether they be physical acts 601 00:35:12,680 --> 00:35:18,360 Speaker 2: or mental acts to his partners, these women that he 602 00:35:18,400 --> 00:35:21,719 Speaker 2: gets into relationships with. You know, there's a there's a 603 00:35:21,800 --> 00:35:27,279 Speaker 2: pathology there inside of James, so you know, and he 604 00:35:27,400 --> 00:35:31,000 Speaker 2: appears at this point, I'm really leaning towards he likely 605 00:35:31,080 --> 00:35:35,359 Speaker 2: killed that one woman that died mysteriously. I believe he's 606 00:35:35,400 --> 00:35:40,279 Speaker 2: responsible for Ellen's homicide, and if he's the father of 607 00:35:40,280 --> 00:35:43,560 Speaker 2: the unborn child, his own child, this other woman sounds 608 00:35:43,600 --> 00:35:45,960 Speaker 2: like he's very abusive to and we don't have any 609 00:35:46,360 --> 00:35:49,520 Speaker 2: real details in terms of the types of abuse that 610 00:35:49,600 --> 00:35:51,200 Speaker 2: he was doing to this woman. 611 00:35:51,760 --> 00:35:54,759 Speaker 1: Now just her life was in constant peril. You have 612 00:35:54,800 --> 00:35:58,839 Speaker 1: to think physical and emotional abuse, absolutely awful, she said, 613 00:35:58,840 --> 00:35:59,399 Speaker 1: start to finish. 614 00:35:59,440 --> 00:36:01,920 Speaker 2: She was terrible, you know. And so this is you know, 615 00:36:02,000 --> 00:36:07,760 Speaker 2: he's on a fairly extreme I shouldn't say necessarily too extreme, 616 00:36:07,800 --> 00:36:12,080 Speaker 2: but he is. He's definitely on the spectrum of being 617 00:36:12,160 --> 00:36:15,600 Speaker 2: a violent I mean, this is a somebody who is 618 00:36:16,600 --> 00:36:22,280 Speaker 2: doing domestic violence at a fairly deep level. If you will, 619 00:36:23,120 --> 00:36:25,120 Speaker 2: you know, and I have a feeling of it. I mean, 620 00:36:25,160 --> 00:36:28,080 Speaker 2: if this woman is saying that she felt her life 621 00:36:28,160 --> 00:36:32,439 Speaker 2: was in constant peril, you know, he's on one hand, 622 00:36:32,480 --> 00:36:36,960 Speaker 2: he's possibly getting some enjoyment out of putting her in 623 00:36:37,040 --> 00:36:40,279 Speaker 2: this peril, whatever it was. But this is also the 624 00:36:40,320 --> 00:36:43,080 Speaker 2: way that he's controlling her. He's keeping her in fear, 625 00:36:44,120 --> 00:36:49,200 Speaker 2: using this coercive control, so she isn't going to leave, 626 00:36:49,400 --> 00:36:52,440 Speaker 2: or isn't going to report these acts of violence or 627 00:36:52,440 --> 00:36:53,960 Speaker 2: whatever his goals are. 628 00:36:54,480 --> 00:36:57,440 Speaker 1: Well, this is a huge case. The sheriff had to 629 00:36:57,600 --> 00:37:00,360 Speaker 1: bar the front doors with two long ladders to prevent 630 00:37:00,480 --> 00:37:04,880 Speaker 1: any more people from coming in. Police officers everywhere. This 631 00:37:05,120 --> 00:37:08,520 Speaker 1: was very, very high profile, so he had gone through 632 00:37:08,560 --> 00:37:12,080 Speaker 1: the whole inquest. They said he needed to be obviously 633 00:37:12,120 --> 00:37:16,239 Speaker 1: tried for murder. And when the defense attorney was given 634 00:37:16,280 --> 00:37:19,920 Speaker 1: the choice between a bench trial and a jury trial, 635 00:37:19,960 --> 00:37:22,400 Speaker 1: and that was a choice in the eighteen hundreds in 636 00:37:22,480 --> 00:37:26,759 Speaker 1: certain areas, he chose for bench And I actually got 637 00:37:26,760 --> 00:37:29,440 Speaker 1: two judges, which was also not unusual. I just was 638 00:37:29,520 --> 00:37:32,319 Speaker 1: working on a book that's said in eighteen forty and 639 00:37:32,600 --> 00:37:35,120 Speaker 1: it's two judges who hear the case. This is a 640 00:37:35,120 --> 00:37:39,799 Speaker 1: two week long trial, and the judges consider all of 641 00:37:39,840 --> 00:37:42,560 Speaker 1: this evidence that we're talking about, so they're, you know, 642 00:37:42,640 --> 00:37:46,880 Speaker 1: thinking about whether or not the prosecutor could prove that 643 00:37:47,040 --> 00:37:51,360 Speaker 1: this was actually murder. They said, obviously James is a 644 00:37:51,440 --> 00:37:54,680 Speaker 1: terrible person, but you have to prove murder. And at 645 00:37:54,680 --> 00:37:57,600 Speaker 1: the end of the day, they said they could not 646 00:37:57,920 --> 00:38:01,839 Speaker 1: find hard evidence to and straight how he killed her. 647 00:38:01,960 --> 00:38:05,439 Speaker 1: We think that he did kill her, but we don't 648 00:38:05,480 --> 00:38:08,280 Speaker 1: know how he killed her. So instead of first degree 649 00:38:08,480 --> 00:38:11,239 Speaker 1: he did get convicted of second degree murder. He didn't 650 00:38:11,280 --> 00:38:13,120 Speaker 1: go to the gallows because of it, which would have 651 00:38:13,160 --> 00:38:15,960 Speaker 1: been his sentence. What do you think about that? So 652 00:38:16,000 --> 00:38:17,640 Speaker 1: they opted for second degree murder. 653 00:38:17,800 --> 00:38:21,120 Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't have a problem with that under the circumstances. Yeah, 654 00:38:21,200 --> 00:38:24,880 Speaker 2: you know, I think now, you know, for first degree murder, 655 00:38:25,080 --> 00:38:28,279 Speaker 2: you know, there's you know, a set of criteria in 656 00:38:28,440 --> 00:38:32,080 Speaker 2: order for it to be considered first degree. In essence, 657 00:38:32,120 --> 00:38:35,320 Speaker 2: this was the malase a forethought. This is a planned 658 00:38:36,040 --> 00:38:39,160 Speaker 2: This was planned. The person had an opportunity to think 659 00:38:39,200 --> 00:38:42,360 Speaker 2: about what they were doing and carried it out, versus 660 00:38:42,400 --> 00:38:44,959 Speaker 2: second degree in the heat of the moment. I would 661 00:38:45,000 --> 00:38:48,480 Speaker 2: say this very possibly could have been in the heat 662 00:38:48,480 --> 00:38:51,239 Speaker 2: of the moment type of murder. I thought you were 663 00:38:51,280 --> 00:38:55,239 Speaker 2: going to say, because they couldn't establish the manner of 664 00:38:55,280 --> 00:38:58,840 Speaker 2: death conclusively as homicide yep, at the hands of another, 665 00:38:59,440 --> 00:39:02,800 Speaker 2: that there's no way he could be convicted of murder. 666 00:39:02,840 --> 00:39:06,719 Speaker 2: So I'm surprised that they actually went ahead and convicted 667 00:39:06,800 --> 00:39:11,480 Speaker 2: him of second degree murder under that. But I agree 668 00:39:11,520 --> 00:39:12,280 Speaker 2: with that finding. 669 00:39:12,680 --> 00:39:15,520 Speaker 1: I agree with it too. They cannot say he did it. 670 00:39:15,640 --> 00:39:19,600 Speaker 1: I think circumstantially it looks really bad for him. But 671 00:39:20,160 --> 00:39:24,440 Speaker 1: there's no CCTV, there's no DNA, there's no witnesses to 672 00:39:24,520 --> 00:39:28,560 Speaker 1: what happened, there's no gunshot, there's no knife, and the 673 00:39:28,640 --> 00:39:31,839 Speaker 1: pathologist said she could have tripped and fallen or done 674 00:39:31,880 --> 00:39:35,799 Speaker 1: this to herself on purpose. So I'm uncomfortable with second 675 00:39:35,840 --> 00:39:39,319 Speaker 1: degree murder, but it's obviously the right decision. I just 676 00:39:39,360 --> 00:39:41,880 Speaker 1: think legally, I don't know. I just I don't know 677 00:39:41,920 --> 00:39:46,880 Speaker 1: if there's actually enough there there to feel okay legally 678 00:39:47,040 --> 00:39:47,880 Speaker 1: Morally it's great. 679 00:39:48,239 --> 00:39:50,960 Speaker 2: I can understand your position. I kind of I think 680 00:39:51,000 --> 00:39:54,600 Speaker 2: this is where we're on a seesaw, and you know, 681 00:39:54,640 --> 00:39:57,080 Speaker 2: we're just on the opposite sides. You know, I think, 682 00:39:57,239 --> 00:40:00,919 Speaker 2: with what I'm hearing about James and and that night 683 00:40:01,000 --> 00:40:05,000 Speaker 2: and what happened to Ellen and his potential motives, you know, 684 00:40:05,120 --> 00:40:07,840 Speaker 2: it's kind of weighing the seesaw towards what I think. 685 00:40:08,200 --> 00:40:10,480 Speaker 2: And then of course you are weighing the sea saw. 686 00:40:10,920 --> 00:40:14,040 Speaker 2: But it's really I think it's a fine division in 687 00:40:14,120 --> 00:40:17,600 Speaker 2: terms of where we are standing about James and whether 688 00:40:17,719 --> 00:40:21,719 Speaker 2: or not legally he should have been convicted of the 689 00:40:21,760 --> 00:40:22,720 Speaker 2: second degree murder. 690 00:40:23,000 --> 00:40:27,080 Speaker 1: Yeah, well he got life in prison, and we don't 691 00:40:27,120 --> 00:40:30,759 Speaker 1: know much about what happened after that. We know that 692 00:40:31,000 --> 00:40:36,000 Speaker 1: Ellen was murdered and we know that she had a baby. Ultimately, 693 00:40:36,040 --> 00:40:38,560 Speaker 1: there was justice there. And again I never want to 694 00:40:38,600 --> 00:40:41,120 Speaker 1: talk about my viewpoints on the death penalty. It doesn't 695 00:40:41,120 --> 00:40:45,680 Speaker 1: really matter here, but I don't know. I think that 696 00:40:45,800 --> 00:40:47,759 Speaker 1: the big part of this case was they could not 697 00:40:48,000 --> 00:40:50,239 Speaker 1: prove how she died, and we don't get many of 698 00:40:50,280 --> 00:40:53,560 Speaker 1: those like definitively said this is how she died. It 699 00:40:53,640 --> 00:40:57,120 Speaker 1: was murder. But I know that it's uncomfortable enough for 700 00:40:57,200 --> 00:41:00,400 Speaker 1: us to say James was responsible. So this is one 701 00:41:00,440 --> 00:41:02,680 Speaker 1: of those squishy cases that I think are interesting to 702 00:41:02,680 --> 00:41:04,960 Speaker 1: bring to you because it's not cut and dry. You 703 00:41:04,960 --> 00:41:06,440 Speaker 1: would think it is, but it's really not. 704 00:41:07,000 --> 00:41:10,200 Speaker 2: And it's entirely possible that if this case had happened today, 705 00:41:10,440 --> 00:41:15,160 Speaker 2: that sufficient evidence of homicide would have been discovered, sufficient 706 00:41:15,239 --> 00:41:19,040 Speaker 2: physical evidence would have tied James to this homicide, you know, 707 00:41:19,080 --> 00:41:22,560 Speaker 2: and then it would be probably a very very easy 708 00:41:22,600 --> 00:41:25,800 Speaker 2: case because you'd have both the physical evidence the manner 709 00:41:25,840 --> 00:41:29,319 Speaker 2: of death being conclusive, as well as the circumstances. But 710 00:41:29,480 --> 00:41:34,600 Speaker 2: dealing with the limitations of the eighteen seventies, yeah, it becomes, 711 00:41:34,640 --> 00:41:37,120 Speaker 2: I think, in your words, a squishy case, and I 712 00:41:37,160 --> 00:41:38,799 Speaker 2: think that's the technical term that you use. 713 00:41:39,160 --> 00:41:43,640 Speaker 1: Scientific Actually, well, thank you for listening to this squishy 714 00:41:43,680 --> 00:41:47,000 Speaker 1: case in two parts. I like complicated cases. I don't 715 00:41:47,080 --> 00:41:49,840 Speaker 1: like the White Knight and the Bad guy with no 716 00:41:50,040 --> 00:41:54,479 Speaker 1: dynamics whatsoever. I really do like complicated stuff, so I'm 717 00:41:54,600 --> 00:41:56,440 Speaker 1: happy to bring you another case next week. 718 00:41:56,760 --> 00:41:58,359 Speaker 2: I'm looking forward to it. Thanks Kate. 719 00:41:58,719 --> 00:42:06,200 Speaker 1: Thanks, this has been an exactly right production for our 720 00:42:06,280 --> 00:42:09,920 Speaker 1: sources and show notes go to Exactlyrightmedia dot com slash 721 00:42:09,960 --> 00:42:13,880 Speaker 1: Buried Bones Sources. Our senior producer is Alexis Emirosi. 722 00:42:14,200 --> 00:42:18,440 Speaker 2: Research by Maren mcclashan, Ali Elkin and Kate Winkler Dawson. 723 00:42:18,680 --> 00:42:20,960 Speaker 1: Our mixing engineer is Ben Tolliday. 724 00:42:21,280 --> 00:42:23,560 Speaker 2: Our theme song is by Tom Bryfogel. 725 00:42:23,800 --> 00:42:25,840 Speaker 1: Our artwork is by Vanessa Lilac. 726 00:42:26,080 --> 00:42:30,240 Speaker 2: Executive produced by Karen Kilgarff, Georgia hard Stark and Daniel Kramer. 727 00:42:30,520 --> 00:42:33,879 Speaker 1: You can follow Buried Bones on Instagram and Facebook at 728 00:42:34,000 --> 00:42:35,120 Speaker 1: Baried Bones pod. 729 00:42:35,600 --> 00:42:38,160 Speaker 2: Kate's most recent book, All That Is Wicked, a Gilded 730 00:42:38,160 --> 00:42:40,160 Speaker 2: Age story of murder and the race to decode the 731 00:42:40,200 --> 00:42:41,959 Speaker 2: criminal mind, is available now 732 00:42:42,320 --> 00:42:46,560 Speaker 1: And Paul's best selling memoir Unmasked, My life solving America's 733 00:42:46,560 --> 00:42:48,640 Speaker 1: Cold Cases is also available now