1 00:00:05,320 --> 00:00:07,200 Speaker 1: Hi, this is Annie, and this is Bridget, and you're 2 00:00:07,240 --> 00:00:20,840 Speaker 1: listening to stuff mom never told you. And it is 3 00:00:20,960 --> 00:00:26,360 Speaker 1: con season also as a convention season. Um. I've been 4 00:00:26,400 --> 00:00:29,120 Speaker 1: known to get into some trouble at conventions, particularly my 5 00:00:29,240 --> 00:00:33,440 Speaker 1: local Atlanta convention, Dragon Con, which is a Labor Day weekend. 6 00:00:33,520 --> 00:00:35,880 Speaker 1: I'm getting ready for it right now, so if you're around, 7 00:00:35,960 --> 00:00:38,320 Speaker 1: come find me. I'll be drunk, but I'll also be 8 00:00:38,800 --> 00:00:42,400 Speaker 1: Hella from thora Ragnarok, Spider Man or woman I suppose 9 00:00:42,680 --> 00:00:45,599 Speaker 1: the Winter Soldier and Ellie from the Last of Us. 10 00:00:46,400 --> 00:00:48,720 Speaker 1: Do you have a character you would jessef as Bridget 11 00:00:48,800 --> 00:00:52,440 Speaker 1: or have you? I would love to cosplay as Wonder Woman, 12 00:00:52,640 --> 00:00:55,920 Speaker 1: and once I cosplayed as mis Sean from Walking Dead, 13 00:00:55,960 --> 00:00:57,360 Speaker 1: which I feel like I look a little bit like 14 00:00:58,000 --> 00:01:01,040 Speaker 1: what convention was that the was not a convention. This 15 00:01:01,120 --> 00:01:04,240 Speaker 1: was just a us getting drunk and going to bars 16 00:01:04,880 --> 00:01:07,520 Speaker 1: at a very nerdy bar crawl. So I don't know 17 00:01:07,520 --> 00:01:15,520 Speaker 1: if that's sill counts cosplay, I'll count it. Um. There 18 00:01:15,640 --> 00:01:18,679 Speaker 1: is a dark side to cosplay and convention culture, of course, 19 00:01:18,760 --> 00:01:24,960 Speaker 1: and I have certainly certainly run into some creepiness. Um. 20 00:01:25,000 --> 00:01:26,920 Speaker 1: A lot of people feel like they can ask you 21 00:01:26,959 --> 00:01:30,680 Speaker 1: to take pictures and weird poses. Um, there is a 22 00:01:30,800 --> 00:01:35,959 Speaker 1: lot of the fake geek girl. I've been quizzed like 23 00:01:36,000 --> 00:01:38,200 Speaker 1: how well I know the character I'm dressing up as 24 00:01:38,280 --> 00:01:44,600 Speaker 1: basically just leave me alone. But okay, um um. Whenever 25 00:01:44,640 --> 00:01:50,080 Speaker 1: I um kind of don't play along with creepy guys 26 00:01:50,200 --> 00:01:52,960 Speaker 1: at conventions, they get angry at me and say I'm 27 00:01:52,960 --> 00:01:56,600 Speaker 1: not a real fan and kind of storm off, powered off. 28 00:01:58,400 --> 00:02:02,320 Speaker 1: So there there is at and it's unfortunate. Uh. And 29 00:02:02,360 --> 00:02:05,000 Speaker 1: in this episode that we're going to replay this classic, 30 00:02:05,080 --> 00:02:08,040 Speaker 1: Kristen and Caroline talk about some of that, along with 31 00:02:08,080 --> 00:02:11,600 Speaker 1: the rise of cosplay, fake girl fandom, and the sexual 32 00:02:11,600 --> 00:02:16,160 Speaker 1: harassment that women and men might encounter when cosplaying. We 33 00:02:16,240 --> 00:02:24,320 Speaker 1: hope you enjoy it. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. 34 00:02:24,400 --> 00:02:27,120 Speaker 1: I'm Kristen and I'm Caroline, and we are talking about 35 00:02:27,200 --> 00:02:32,120 Speaker 1: cosplay today because it's the season of the con. Well 36 00:02:32,120 --> 00:02:33,880 Speaker 1: it might be a little past the season of the con, 37 00:02:34,000 --> 00:02:37,440 Speaker 1: but there's still some cons happening. There's still some cons happening, 38 00:02:37,520 --> 00:02:40,959 Speaker 1: namely a Dragon Con here in Atlanta on Labor Day weekend. Yeah, 39 00:02:41,000 --> 00:02:43,760 Speaker 1: and as of when we are recording this episode, Comic 40 00:02:43,800 --> 00:02:49,320 Speaker 1: Con just wrapped up, so there's been lots of news 41 00:02:49,360 --> 00:02:53,440 Speaker 1: in our world of the past as the podcast is 42 00:02:53,480 --> 00:03:00,920 Speaker 1: coming out now about cosplay and particularly women in cosplay. Yeah, 43 00:03:00,919 --> 00:03:03,640 Speaker 1: so what is it? Real quick? Obviously, it's a mash 44 00:03:03,760 --> 00:03:08,200 Speaker 1: up of costume and play, particularly dressing up like a 45 00:03:08,240 --> 00:03:11,800 Speaker 1: sci fi superhero, comic book, video game character, et cetera. 46 00:03:12,080 --> 00:03:18,120 Speaker 1: And cosplaying can range from just wearing a mask, even 47 00:03:18,160 --> 00:03:19,680 Speaker 1: though I have a feeling if you show up at 48 00:03:19,720 --> 00:03:22,200 Speaker 1: dragon Con and just a mask and jeans, that is 49 00:03:22,280 --> 00:03:26,800 Speaker 1: not going to cut it, uh, to actually becoming a character. 50 00:03:27,240 --> 00:03:30,000 Speaker 1: And it's almost a form of performance art at that point, 51 00:03:30,040 --> 00:03:34,600 Speaker 1: because not only do you wear a costume and makeup 52 00:03:34,639 --> 00:03:37,320 Speaker 1: and wigs and all sorts of things, but a lot 53 00:03:37,360 --> 00:03:42,280 Speaker 1: of people tend to embody fully, embody whoever it is 54 00:03:42,320 --> 00:03:45,000 Speaker 1: they're dressed up as. Yeah, and it it sort of 55 00:03:45,040 --> 00:03:48,080 Speaker 1: becomes your cultural capital when you go to these conferences 56 00:03:48,600 --> 00:03:51,400 Speaker 1: as far as your accuracy, the actreacy of everything from 57 00:03:51,440 --> 00:03:53,920 Speaker 1: your hat to your makeup, to the clothes you're wearing 58 00:03:53,920 --> 00:03:56,000 Speaker 1: to the shoes you're wearing. I have a friend who 59 00:03:56,080 --> 00:03:58,000 Speaker 1: goes to dragon Con every year and loves to dress 60 00:03:58,080 --> 00:04:00,520 Speaker 1: up for it, and she's typically a character out of 61 00:04:00,520 --> 00:04:03,040 Speaker 1: Star Wars and not somebody like Leiah or Han Solo, 62 00:04:03,160 --> 00:04:05,160 Speaker 1: not like a main character, but usually one of like 63 00:04:05,200 --> 00:04:09,120 Speaker 1: the pilots, the types of pilots. And I remember being 64 00:04:09,160 --> 00:04:12,040 Speaker 1: so impressed at how accurate I thought her costume was, 65 00:04:12,400 --> 00:04:14,360 Speaker 1: but she got some major flak when she went to 66 00:04:14,440 --> 00:04:17,120 Speaker 1: Dragon Con because there was like a single piece of 67 00:04:17,120 --> 00:04:21,480 Speaker 1: her costume that wasn't completely accurate. Yeah, accuracy is highly 68 00:04:21,600 --> 00:04:26,120 Speaker 1: valued and stuff you missed in history class. Fans are 69 00:04:26,160 --> 00:04:31,160 Speaker 1: probably well aware that Host Holly is an incredible costume 70 00:04:31,200 --> 00:04:35,400 Speaker 1: designer on top of being an incredible podcaster, and the 71 00:04:35,440 --> 00:04:40,320 Speaker 1: creations that she makes for Dragon Con are downright incredible 72 00:04:40,320 --> 00:04:45,760 Speaker 1: and take months to make because it's all about those details. Yeah. 73 00:04:45,920 --> 00:04:48,920 Speaker 1: I know. I have another friend who she'll kill me 74 00:04:48,960 --> 00:04:52,359 Speaker 1: if she hears me saying this. That she has two jobs, 75 00:04:52,360 --> 00:04:55,240 Speaker 1: and one of her job is working at a fabric 76 00:04:55,360 --> 00:04:58,520 Speaker 1: store crafting and fabric store. And part of the reason 77 00:04:58,560 --> 00:05:00,880 Speaker 1: why she works there is she it's some pretty good 78 00:05:00,920 --> 00:05:05,279 Speaker 1: deals to make some costumes, make some incredible costumes. She's 79 00:05:05,279 --> 00:05:09,000 Speaker 1: an incredible seamstress and can whip up these amazing costumes, 80 00:05:09,040 --> 00:05:12,359 Speaker 1: and I just I admire the time and dedication that 81 00:05:12,400 --> 00:05:16,120 Speaker 1: goes into that kind of stuff. Yeah. Well, the history 82 00:05:16,480 --> 00:05:20,320 Speaker 1: of cosplay is pretty fascinating as well, and involves a 83 00:05:20,320 --> 00:05:26,200 Speaker 1: lot of attention to detail and time intensive costumes. Uh. 84 00:05:26,240 --> 00:05:29,040 Speaker 1: And while a lot of times people seem to think 85 00:05:29,080 --> 00:05:33,800 Speaker 1: that cosplay just originated in Japan and was imported to 86 00:05:33,960 --> 00:05:37,480 Speaker 1: the US, in fact, it has a pretty rich history 87 00:05:37,920 --> 00:05:41,600 Speaker 1: in the US goes all the way back to nine 88 00:05:41,839 --> 00:05:46,080 Speaker 1: when sci fi fan Forest Jay Ackerman attended the first 89 00:05:46,160 --> 00:05:50,400 Speaker 1: ever World Science Fiction Convention a k a. World Con 90 00:05:50,720 --> 00:05:55,200 Speaker 1: and dressed in a quote futuristic costume all one word yeah, 91 00:05:55,279 --> 00:05:58,040 Speaker 1: and he was pretty much, along with his friend Myrtle Jones, 92 00:05:58,040 --> 00:06:01,520 Speaker 1: the first to do so. Um So, I just want 93 00:06:01,520 --> 00:06:05,760 Speaker 1: our cosplaying and con going friends out there to close 94 00:06:05,760 --> 00:06:08,040 Speaker 1: your eyes and imagine a con where no one is 95 00:06:08,120 --> 00:06:10,760 Speaker 1: dressed up, and that you're the weirdo if you do 96 00:06:10,839 --> 00:06:13,560 Speaker 1: show up dressed up. And so Myrtle, his friend Myrtle 97 00:06:14,040 --> 00:06:16,640 Speaker 1: wore a gown to accompany him, based on one from 98 00:06:16,680 --> 00:06:20,560 Speaker 1: the nineteen thirty three film Things to Come, And these 99 00:06:20,640 --> 00:06:24,039 Speaker 1: kids really got into character. They walked around looking like 100 00:06:24,080 --> 00:06:28,440 Speaker 1: a pair of superheroes speaking Esperanto to each other and 101 00:06:28,480 --> 00:06:32,520 Speaker 1: I was like, what speaking what? That's actually a language 102 00:06:32,560 --> 00:06:35,880 Speaker 1: that was constructed in modern history to be politically neutral, 103 00:06:36,000 --> 00:06:38,240 Speaker 1: I am showing my ignorance here. I had literally never 104 00:06:38,240 --> 00:06:42,960 Speaker 1: heard of Esperanto. I have seen the one feature film 105 00:06:43,800 --> 00:06:48,200 Speaker 1: shot in complete, Esperanto, and it stars William Shatner. It's 106 00:06:48,400 --> 00:06:51,560 Speaker 1: very strange. It's also in black and white. So if 107 00:06:51,560 --> 00:06:54,600 Speaker 1: you ever want, if you ever if you love William Shatner, 108 00:06:55,440 --> 00:06:58,960 Speaker 1: you should watch it. Well. So, the following year, World 109 00:06:59,080 --> 00:07:02,920 Speaker 1: Con holds its first masquerade ball, So obviously Ackerman and 110 00:07:03,000 --> 00:07:06,800 Speaker 1: Jones were doing something right. And then sixteen years later, 111 00:07:06,880 --> 00:07:10,160 Speaker 1: in nineteen fifty six, Ackerman returns to world Con to 112 00:07:10,240 --> 00:07:13,800 Speaker 1: report on it and notes how common costumes have become. 113 00:07:14,040 --> 00:07:17,360 Speaker 1: I'm assuming he felt like like the O G cost player, like, oh, 114 00:07:17,440 --> 00:07:20,400 Speaker 1: look at all these peons during this Now he had to. 115 00:07:20,600 --> 00:07:23,760 Speaker 1: Although I feel like Ackerman always gets the cred, but 116 00:07:23,880 --> 00:07:27,240 Speaker 1: wasn't it Myrtle Jones who made his costume? I mean, like, 117 00:07:27,280 --> 00:07:30,080 Speaker 1: obviously gets credit for wearing it, but I'm pretty sure 118 00:07:30,120 --> 00:07:33,160 Speaker 1: that it was Jones who constructed his costume, which sort 119 00:07:33,160 --> 00:07:36,200 Speaker 1: of looked like a nineteen what you would think of 120 00:07:36,560 --> 00:07:40,080 Speaker 1: as a nineteen fifties spaceman. It was like a like 121 00:07:40,400 --> 00:07:47,480 Speaker 1: trousers and a top with pointy shoulder pieces. It wasn't 122 00:07:47,720 --> 00:07:49,720 Speaker 1: It didn't look crazy elaborate, but that might be because 123 00:07:50,120 --> 00:07:53,240 Speaker 1: it was a black and white photographs. And also, well, also, 124 00:07:53,280 --> 00:07:56,920 Speaker 1: we're so used to costumes. Now, this is true. Dragon 125 00:07:56,920 --> 00:08:00,640 Speaker 1: Con has spoiled us, Caroline, it has, indeed. But so 126 00:08:00,800 --> 00:08:02,800 Speaker 1: you know, from the sixties onward, we start to see 127 00:08:02,840 --> 00:08:06,880 Speaker 1: fans spending a lot more time, money, and effort creating 128 00:08:06,880 --> 00:08:10,360 Speaker 1: their costumes to attend these cons. And then in nineteen 129 00:08:10,440 --> 00:08:13,360 Speaker 1: seventy we get the first comic Con taking place in 130 00:08:13,440 --> 00:08:16,760 Speaker 1: San Diego. Only three people attended and costuming was not 131 00:08:16,880 --> 00:08:19,360 Speaker 1: really a big part of it. And then in nineteen 132 00:08:19,400 --> 00:08:24,440 Speaker 1: seventy five it becomes clear that even though costuming wasn't 133 00:08:24,480 --> 00:08:26,880 Speaker 1: huge at comic con at the time, there was a 134 00:08:26,960 --> 00:08:31,760 Speaker 1: German newspaper that published an article on sci fi conventions 135 00:08:31,880 --> 00:08:36,959 Speaker 1: as quote largely devoted to costume dances, parties and mutual flattery. 136 00:08:37,840 --> 00:08:39,960 Speaker 1: It sounds like a lot of fun, but I think 137 00:08:39,960 --> 00:08:43,200 Speaker 1: the costume dances at the time were often still just 138 00:08:44,000 --> 00:08:47,679 Speaker 1: more along the lines of a traditional masquerade. Yeah. Well, 139 00:08:47,720 --> 00:08:49,760 Speaker 1: so five years later, in nineteen eighty, if we look 140 00:08:49,840 --> 00:08:54,319 Speaker 1: to Japan, the manga series Urse Yet Sarah is released 141 00:08:54,360 --> 00:08:57,880 Speaker 1: sorry if I butchered that. Um, and, along with the 142 00:08:57,960 --> 00:09:01,559 Speaker 1: nineteen seventy nine series Mobile Suit condem it helped jump 143 00:09:01,559 --> 00:09:06,439 Speaker 1: start cosplay in Japan, although it wasn't called cosplay yet. UM. 144 00:09:06,480 --> 00:09:11,319 Speaker 1: That wasn't until four when Japanese reporter slash manga publisher 145 00:09:11,480 --> 00:09:15,640 Speaker 1: Takahashi Nobiyuki was the first to use the word cosplay 146 00:09:15,679 --> 00:09:19,679 Speaker 1: after attending World Con in Los Angeles. Yeah, so the 147 00:09:19,920 --> 00:09:24,280 Speaker 1: development of cosplay is actually the result of this sort 148 00:09:24,320 --> 00:09:27,920 Speaker 1: of back and forth between cons in the US and 149 00:09:28,200 --> 00:09:34,080 Speaker 1: then the growing anime world in Japan, and Japanese readers 150 00:09:34,280 --> 00:09:38,640 Speaker 1: apparently loved the term cosplay because well that and the 151 00:09:38,760 --> 00:09:41,520 Speaker 1: concept because it really takes hold, and in just a 152 00:09:41,600 --> 00:09:46,760 Speaker 1: few years you have cosplayers dressing as anime characters. And 153 00:09:46,840 --> 00:09:50,439 Speaker 1: then in the nineteen nineties, that's when you see cosplay 154 00:09:50,559 --> 00:09:53,880 Speaker 1: really starting to take off with the explosion of anime 155 00:09:54,240 --> 00:09:58,400 Speaker 1: and manga in the United States. Right. Yeah, in the 156 00:09:58,480 --> 00:10:01,280 Speaker 1: early nineties, you have the first Anime Expo in l 157 00:10:01,320 --> 00:10:04,120 Speaker 1: A that attracted only about seventeen hundred people, but by 158 00:10:04,200 --> 00:10:09,959 Speaker 1: twenty twelve, almost fifty thousand people attended that con, and 159 00:10:11,000 --> 00:10:15,440 Speaker 1: there was even a cosplay cafe that opened up in Tokyo, 160 00:10:15,800 --> 00:10:21,160 Speaker 1: and by now there are entire cosplay districts in Japan, 161 00:10:21,320 --> 00:10:24,960 Speaker 1: and it's not it's common to see people in cosplay 162 00:10:25,600 --> 00:10:27,719 Speaker 1: on the streets of Japan, not just because they're on 163 00:10:27,760 --> 00:10:30,720 Speaker 1: their way to a con, but just because that's all 164 00:10:30,720 --> 00:10:33,520 Speaker 1: they dress. They're always in cosplay. Yeah, well, I mean 165 00:10:33,600 --> 00:10:38,360 Speaker 1: it's kind of like historic historic Williamsburg, Virginia. I guess 166 00:10:39,360 --> 00:10:41,920 Speaker 1: they're always dressed like it's the eighteen fifties or something, 167 00:10:42,480 --> 00:10:47,040 Speaker 1: or the seventeen Anyway, By twelve, anime conventions are being 168 00:10:47,080 --> 00:10:50,319 Speaker 1: held in thirty states in the US and five provinces 169 00:10:50,600 --> 00:10:54,559 Speaker 1: in Canada, and the following year in cosplayers hit reality 170 00:10:54,640 --> 00:10:57,640 Speaker 1: TV with the Sci Fi channels Heroes of Cosplay, So 171 00:10:57,760 --> 00:11:00,600 Speaker 1: it is like cosplay. As much as of people think 172 00:11:00,640 --> 00:11:03,559 Speaker 1: of it as being outside the mainstream and weird and 173 00:11:03,720 --> 00:11:07,160 Speaker 1: something strange and foreign, it's pretty mainstream. Yeah. I think 174 00:11:07,240 --> 00:11:10,760 Speaker 1: cosplay is becoming mainstream, probably to the chagrin of some 175 00:11:11,080 --> 00:11:15,760 Speaker 1: hardcore cause players. I know that not everyone who was 176 00:11:15,800 --> 00:11:19,199 Speaker 1: big into cosplay was a big fan of Heroes of 177 00:11:19,320 --> 00:11:22,880 Speaker 1: Cosplay on sci Fi. I read a blog post on 178 00:11:23,480 --> 00:11:26,040 Speaker 1: I think it was a comics related blog talking about 179 00:11:26,120 --> 00:11:30,280 Speaker 1: how it was just edited for reality, and it's not really. 180 00:11:30,520 --> 00:11:35,959 Speaker 1: It kind of ignored the heart of cosplay, which is 181 00:11:36,040 --> 00:11:41,480 Speaker 1: all about just appreciating something and having a space to 182 00:11:43,400 --> 00:11:47,280 Speaker 1: let your fandom run wild to finally, you know, to 183 00:11:47,520 --> 00:11:50,439 Speaker 1: actually be the characters that you love and also be 184 00:11:50,559 --> 00:11:54,160 Speaker 1: surrounded by people who love you for that, who look 185 00:11:54,200 --> 00:11:57,880 Speaker 1: at the tiniest of details on your costume and I 186 00:11:58,000 --> 00:12:02,680 Speaker 1: think it's amazing, it's incredible. But it's not just about 187 00:12:02,840 --> 00:12:05,600 Speaker 1: the costumes. In fact, the focus of this podcast really 188 00:12:05,800 --> 00:12:09,720 Speaker 1: isn't so much on the costumes, but rather the underlying 189 00:12:09,960 --> 00:12:14,559 Speaker 1: gender play that some scholars have looked into. Yeah, it's 190 00:12:14,600 --> 00:12:17,280 Speaker 1: really interesting, the whole issue of cross play, which I 191 00:12:17,440 --> 00:12:19,839 Speaker 1: kind of in my mind as a complete outsider, I 192 00:12:19,960 --> 00:12:24,400 Speaker 1: never really subdivided like cross play out from cosplay. I 193 00:12:24,440 --> 00:12:26,480 Speaker 1: was always like, oh, well, you know, she's dressing like 194 00:12:26,559 --> 00:12:28,760 Speaker 1: a male character, he's dressing like a female character. But 195 00:12:28,840 --> 00:12:31,360 Speaker 1: there's been a lot of scholarship on this issue. So, 196 00:12:31,720 --> 00:12:34,120 Speaker 1: like I pointed out, cross play is dressing as a 197 00:12:34,200 --> 00:12:38,400 Speaker 1: character of another gender, and successful cross play is seen 198 00:12:38,520 --> 00:12:41,640 Speaker 1: as a means for costplayers to distinguish themselves in their 199 00:12:41,800 --> 00:12:43,559 Speaker 1: art and their skills as a fan. So it's not 200 00:12:43,679 --> 00:12:47,120 Speaker 1: necessarily about, you know, becoming someone of another gender, but 201 00:12:47,240 --> 00:12:50,640 Speaker 1: becoming that character so completely that people are like, WHOA, 202 00:12:50,800 --> 00:12:53,040 Speaker 1: look at you, You're awesome. Yeah. A lot of people 203 00:12:53,400 --> 00:12:57,760 Speaker 1: just compare it to drag for for more lay audiences. Um. 204 00:12:57,880 --> 00:13:01,960 Speaker 1: And this is something, though specific male to female cross 205 00:13:02,040 --> 00:13:07,000 Speaker 1: play that Rachel Lang at Duke University looked into, and 206 00:13:07,320 --> 00:13:10,160 Speaker 1: she wrote in a paper on this that when men 207 00:13:10,320 --> 00:13:14,120 Speaker 1: cross play as women, they're not merely dawning femininity, but 208 00:13:14,400 --> 00:13:18,800 Speaker 1: hyper femininity, revealing the socially constructed nature of gender roles, 209 00:13:19,320 --> 00:13:23,240 Speaker 1: yet can commonly reinforcing them, which in a way is 210 00:13:23,360 --> 00:13:27,520 Speaker 1: a lot like drag because drag queens are not simply 211 00:13:27,640 --> 00:13:31,280 Speaker 1: dressing up as women, but as hyper feminine versions of 212 00:13:31,360 --> 00:13:33,360 Speaker 1: women with the big hair and the big makeup and 213 00:13:33,440 --> 00:13:36,000 Speaker 1: the sparkles. Yeah. And I thought this was such an 214 00:13:36,040 --> 00:13:38,280 Speaker 1: interesting way to look at it because they talk a 215 00:13:38,320 --> 00:13:41,680 Speaker 1: lot about the fictive nature of genders. So I don't 216 00:13:41,679 --> 00:13:43,000 Speaker 1: know if it was I think it was. This paper 217 00:13:43,160 --> 00:13:46,560 Speaker 1: was talking to one particular cross player who talked about 218 00:13:46,600 --> 00:13:48,840 Speaker 1: everything that he had to go through to become these 219 00:13:49,280 --> 00:13:53,360 Speaker 1: female feminine characters. He took voice lessons, he learned how 220 00:13:53,400 --> 00:13:55,920 Speaker 1: to walk, he has to pay so much attention to 221 00:13:56,000 --> 00:13:57,920 Speaker 1: how he moves his body to make sure that he's 222 00:13:57,960 --> 00:14:00,800 Speaker 1: moving quote like a woman and not like a man, 223 00:14:00,880 --> 00:14:04,160 Speaker 1: which comes naturally to him. And another interesting aspect of 224 00:14:04,400 --> 00:14:06,480 Speaker 1: cross play that rachel Ing points out is that a 225 00:14:06,600 --> 00:14:10,360 Speaker 1: lot of these men who do cross play as female 226 00:14:10,480 --> 00:14:13,640 Speaker 1: characters really stress the fact that they're not gay. Not 227 00:14:13,800 --> 00:14:15,800 Speaker 1: that there's not gay cross players, but you know what 228 00:14:15,840 --> 00:14:18,439 Speaker 1: I'm saying, a lot of these men try to emphasize 229 00:14:18,520 --> 00:14:21,120 Speaker 1: we're not gay. It's part of what a big fan 230 00:14:21,400 --> 00:14:24,360 Speaker 1: I am that I'm dressing as this female character. And 231 00:14:24,600 --> 00:14:28,000 Speaker 1: so just look at the gender spiral of this. So 232 00:14:28,160 --> 00:14:31,160 Speaker 1: a man who is straight is stressing as a female character, 233 00:14:31,240 --> 00:14:32,760 Speaker 1: and to do it and to show how good of 234 00:14:32,840 --> 00:14:35,600 Speaker 1: a fan he is, he's got to be super feminine 235 00:14:36,160 --> 00:14:39,720 Speaker 1: while stressing that he's masculine and so having to be 236 00:14:39,840 --> 00:14:43,720 Speaker 1: so self assured about that masculinity and heterosexuality while at 237 00:14:43,760 --> 00:14:47,760 Speaker 1: the same time asserting femininity layers. Well, yeah, and from 238 00:14:47,840 --> 00:14:52,680 Speaker 1: that layers, uh, there sometimes comes extra respect from the 239 00:14:52,800 --> 00:14:56,240 Speaker 1: causeplay community if you dare to engage or maybe not 240 00:14:56,400 --> 00:14:58,800 Speaker 1: dare doesn't seem like it's that wild of an idea 241 00:14:59,400 --> 00:15:03,040 Speaker 1: to engage in cross play because a lot of times too. 242 00:15:03,320 --> 00:15:08,160 Speaker 1: This involves making your own costume, and like you talked about, 243 00:15:08,240 --> 00:15:13,400 Speaker 1: going to that extra effort to emulate these female characters 244 00:15:13,760 --> 00:15:21,760 Speaker 1: as closely as possible, and Lang identified two major motivations 245 00:15:22,040 --> 00:15:26,080 Speaker 1: that drive specifically the male to female cross play, which 246 00:15:26,160 --> 00:15:31,560 Speaker 1: are the desire to express fandom and skills and also 247 00:15:31,720 --> 00:15:35,880 Speaker 1: the thrill of an enhanced which he calls carnivalesque experience 248 00:15:36,000 --> 00:15:39,280 Speaker 1: by transgressing the gender binary. In other words, it's just 249 00:15:39,440 --> 00:15:42,880 Speaker 1: more fun. Yeah, And a lot of cross players, serious 250 00:15:42,920 --> 00:15:46,520 Speaker 1: male to female cross players are really put off by 251 00:15:47,360 --> 00:15:50,800 Speaker 1: uh characters like I can't remember the official name, but 252 00:15:50,840 --> 00:15:54,280 Speaker 1: it's like basically like Bubba Sailor Moon, where guys who 253 00:15:54,360 --> 00:15:57,440 Speaker 1: are like bigger and hairy and are not making that 254 00:15:57,840 --> 00:16:01,680 Speaker 1: very strong physical effort to look like the female character 255 00:16:02,120 --> 00:16:05,240 Speaker 1: that they're depicting. But you know, so like the picture 256 00:16:05,320 --> 00:16:08,160 Speaker 1: in the story was a this rather large man with 257 00:16:08,280 --> 00:16:11,640 Speaker 1: a beard and a big gut dressed up as Sailor Moon, 258 00:16:11,920 --> 00:16:14,480 Speaker 1: you know, with the blonde wig over his beard and everything. 259 00:16:14,560 --> 00:16:18,880 Speaker 1: It's like more making light of it, whereas serious cross 260 00:16:18,960 --> 00:16:21,920 Speaker 1: players are having none of that, and they are really 261 00:16:22,000 --> 00:16:36,480 Speaker 1: making an effort to embody that character as a guardian 262 00:16:36,520 --> 00:16:42,000 Speaker 1: reported on in is female to male cross play because 263 00:16:42,320 --> 00:16:44,880 Speaker 1: a lot of times female cause players just might be 264 00:16:45,080 --> 00:16:48,960 Speaker 1: challenged by the fact that there aren't as many. Specifically, 265 00:16:49,000 --> 00:16:54,560 Speaker 1: we're talking about comic book heroes, interesting independent, strong female characters, 266 00:16:54,680 --> 00:16:58,120 Speaker 1: like if they really want to be a super tough character, 267 00:16:58,640 --> 00:17:03,680 Speaker 1: it might demand cross playing and and one benefit or 268 00:17:03,920 --> 00:17:06,520 Speaker 1: you know whatever. One good thing about like anime and 269 00:17:06,680 --> 00:17:10,639 Speaker 1: manga in particular is that while a lot of the 270 00:17:10,800 --> 00:17:13,800 Speaker 1: comic book or video games sources that we have in 271 00:17:13,920 --> 00:17:18,040 Speaker 1: the West, while the characters there might be very masculine, 272 00:17:18,080 --> 00:17:20,120 Speaker 1: and so women are choosing to cross play as these 273 00:17:20,160 --> 00:17:24,720 Speaker 1: male characters, in a lot of manga and anime series 274 00:17:24,800 --> 00:17:29,760 Speaker 1: the characters are more ambiguous. So helping to enable this 275 00:17:29,880 --> 00:17:32,800 Speaker 1: cross play is things like what's called bis shown in, 276 00:17:33,160 --> 00:17:36,960 Speaker 1: which are highly feminized male characters with model like proportions 277 00:17:37,440 --> 00:17:40,280 Speaker 1: that tend to appear in manga geared toward women. And 278 00:17:40,359 --> 00:17:44,840 Speaker 1: along those lines, what's super common to see when you 279 00:17:45,000 --> 00:17:49,040 Speaker 1: have women CAUSE players dressing up as traditionally male characters 280 00:17:49,359 --> 00:17:54,240 Speaker 1: is what's called femming, So dressing up, say as doctor Who, 281 00:17:54,960 --> 00:17:58,880 Speaker 1: but not trying to be one of the all male 282 00:17:59,200 --> 00:18:03,320 Speaker 1: doctor of characters over the years, but rather being a 283 00:18:03,640 --> 00:18:06,360 Speaker 1: female Doctor Who, but a female version i should say, 284 00:18:06,480 --> 00:18:09,560 Speaker 1: of a specific Doctor Who. And you see this all 285 00:18:09,640 --> 00:18:13,000 Speaker 1: the time. It's it's also kind of um, you get 286 00:18:13,080 --> 00:18:15,640 Speaker 1: into pockets of cosplay where it does start to look 287 00:18:15,720 --> 00:18:19,520 Speaker 1: like the whole Halloween costume thing, where it's just sexify anything. 288 00:18:19,960 --> 00:18:22,280 Speaker 1: So you could be like a sexy Bain and you'd 289 00:18:22,320 --> 00:18:25,240 Speaker 1: just be wearing you know, the scary face mask, but 290 00:18:26,000 --> 00:18:29,680 Speaker 1: just a crop top. The crop top will do, right, 291 00:18:29,880 --> 00:18:34,720 Speaker 1: and so um. Blogger nights Guy said that feming a 292 00:18:34,840 --> 00:18:38,399 Speaker 1: Doctor Who character is a way for geek women to 293 00:18:38,480 --> 00:18:42,680 Speaker 1: reclaim their femininity as legitimate in a subculture that often 294 00:18:42,800 --> 00:18:47,640 Speaker 1: denigrates all things girly. Yeah, and that's you know, it's 295 00:18:47,680 --> 00:18:50,919 Speaker 1: interesting that there seems to be so much cred, at 296 00:18:51,000 --> 00:18:55,880 Speaker 1: least according to that Duke paper, in the more realistic 297 00:18:56,640 --> 00:19:00,400 Speaker 1: uh male to female crossplay of men dressing up as 298 00:19:00,920 --> 00:19:06,200 Speaker 1: female characters and really owning that female character. Um. And 299 00:19:06,520 --> 00:19:09,639 Speaker 1: then sort of similar to that, there also seems to 300 00:19:09,680 --> 00:19:13,320 Speaker 1: be a lot of cred for femming cosplay as well, 301 00:19:13,720 --> 00:19:15,280 Speaker 1: which is kind of cool. I mean, there's a lot 302 00:19:15,359 --> 00:19:18,200 Speaker 1: of there's a lot of fascinating gender play at work 303 00:19:18,359 --> 00:19:22,840 Speaker 1: on con floors. Yeah, exactly, And responding to that blogger 304 00:19:22,920 --> 00:19:25,080 Speaker 1: night Sky, the Guardian writer does point out that, yeah, 305 00:19:25,119 --> 00:19:27,320 Speaker 1: she's absolutely right. Um, you know, it is a way 306 00:19:27,359 --> 00:19:30,959 Speaker 1: to reclaim characters to say that, hey, girlely is okay. 307 00:19:31,640 --> 00:19:34,800 Speaker 1: But it's also serving as that reminder that a lot 308 00:19:34,880 --> 00:19:39,120 Speaker 1: of female characters, including female characters in Doctor Who are 309 00:19:39,240 --> 00:19:42,480 Speaker 1: the sidekicks. Yeah, it's like going back to that whole 310 00:19:42,560 --> 00:19:47,000 Speaker 1: lack of good source material. Yeah. And uh, speaking of that, 311 00:19:47,840 --> 00:19:52,879 Speaker 1: cosplay has been a way to offer women entry into 312 00:19:53,600 --> 00:19:59,600 Speaker 1: the traditionally male dominated gaming world, comic world, world of fandom. 313 00:19:59,680 --> 00:20:02,239 Speaker 1: I mean, just think about the term fanboy. I mean 314 00:20:02,320 --> 00:20:06,760 Speaker 1: that's pretty clearly gendered. Uh. And and one example called 315 00:20:06,760 --> 00:20:09,360 Speaker 1: out in a paper we found in the journal Intersections, 316 00:20:09,560 --> 00:20:13,280 Speaker 1: Gender and Sexuality in Asia and the Pacific is how 317 00:20:13,880 --> 00:20:19,680 Speaker 1: in Japan, in particular, cosplay open doors for Japanese women 318 00:20:19,800 --> 00:20:23,600 Speaker 1: into the so called technic cultures. Right. And so we've 319 00:20:23,640 --> 00:20:26,720 Speaker 1: talked about the concept of kauai on the podcast before. 320 00:20:26,800 --> 00:20:30,840 Speaker 1: That's basically just like hypercuteness. And the paper was talking 321 00:20:30,880 --> 00:20:34,719 Speaker 1: about how you see this rise of the cute culture, 322 00:20:34,800 --> 00:20:39,000 Speaker 1: the kauai, alongside techno cultures that revolve around using a 323 00:20:39,119 --> 00:20:43,320 Speaker 1: mobile device, and so basically that Kauai served as sort 324 00:20:43,359 --> 00:20:49,160 Speaker 1: of a gateway from um passive consumer two women actually 325 00:20:49,520 --> 00:20:54,200 Speaker 1: entering the gaming realm, the anime realm and actively participating. 326 00:20:54,400 --> 00:20:57,480 Speaker 1: Because in the same way that a woman might fem 327 00:20:57,760 --> 00:21:02,240 Speaker 1: a doctor who character, they're talking about Japanese girls and 328 00:21:02,359 --> 00:21:07,000 Speaker 1: young women who are kind of cuting up characters and 329 00:21:07,119 --> 00:21:10,320 Speaker 1: participating in cosplay that way. And on top of that, 330 00:21:10,520 --> 00:21:15,720 Speaker 1: they were focusing on this specific type of younger Japanese woman. 331 00:21:15,760 --> 00:21:18,240 Speaker 1: And I don't have the Japanese term for it, but 332 00:21:18,400 --> 00:21:23,560 Speaker 1: it essentially means the single independent woman who is most 333 00:21:23,600 --> 00:21:29,199 Speaker 1: closely associated with these cultures, who is getting more into 334 00:21:29,800 --> 00:21:34,720 Speaker 1: or has gotten more into UM the technoculture and really 335 00:21:34,760 --> 00:21:40,000 Speaker 1: the participatory aspects of that. And the paper also talks 336 00:21:40,000 --> 00:21:43,480 Speaker 1: about how dressing up as characters in these games in 337 00:21:43,560 --> 00:21:48,840 Speaker 1: particular sort of opens up new forms of gender performance. 338 00:21:48,920 --> 00:21:54,080 Speaker 1: It decenters the geek guy as the prime game consumer, 339 00:21:54,240 --> 00:21:56,680 Speaker 1: and so it's the same kind of thing that you 340 00:21:56,760 --> 00:22:00,680 Speaker 1: see happening over in the US as well. But while 341 00:22:00,760 --> 00:22:05,240 Speaker 1: there are all sorts of fascinating gender performance aspects to this, 342 00:22:05,640 --> 00:22:08,280 Speaker 1: and the name that comes up over and over again 343 00:22:08,480 --> 00:22:13,040 Speaker 1: actually in these papers on cosplay is Judith Butler, you 344 00:22:13,119 --> 00:22:15,240 Speaker 1: know who is the I don't know if you'd want 345 00:22:15,240 --> 00:22:16,960 Speaker 1: to be called the mother of it, but she's the 346 00:22:17,080 --> 00:22:21,639 Speaker 1: matriarch of the idea of gender as performance. UM, and 347 00:22:22,040 --> 00:22:27,240 Speaker 1: women are certainly welcomed in the cosplay world and are 348 00:22:27,359 --> 00:22:32,159 Speaker 1: prominent part of it, but it's not It's not all 349 00:22:32,200 --> 00:22:35,680 Speaker 1: costumes and roses. Caroline. Well, yeah, So the whole thing 350 00:22:35,760 --> 00:22:38,480 Speaker 1: about you know, cosplay not being all Kauai all the 351 00:22:38,560 --> 00:22:41,919 Speaker 1: time is that while on the one hand, you've got 352 00:22:42,000 --> 00:22:45,000 Speaker 1: all these women coming into cons and cosplay and that's great, 353 00:22:45,080 --> 00:22:48,040 Speaker 1: and that's amazing and they should why not. Um, the 354 00:22:48,119 --> 00:22:50,639 Speaker 1: more women that show up, the more reports surface of 355 00:22:50,880 --> 00:22:54,680 Speaker 1: things like sexual harassment. You hear the statement a lot 356 00:22:54,800 --> 00:22:57,880 Speaker 1: that cosplay does not equal consent, and we will talk 357 00:22:57,880 --> 00:23:00,920 Speaker 1: a lot more about that in a minute. But you know, 358 00:23:01,320 --> 00:23:04,000 Speaker 1: there's the struggle with the fact that, like we just 359 00:23:04,080 --> 00:23:07,720 Speaker 1: mentioned a minute ago, source material for women wanting to 360 00:23:07,840 --> 00:23:11,280 Speaker 1: cosplay as strong characters is lacking. A lot of the 361 00:23:11,440 --> 00:23:15,879 Speaker 1: comic book women, video game women characters are dressed on 362 00:23:16,000 --> 00:23:19,159 Speaker 1: the more scantily clad side. Yeah, I mean, and and 363 00:23:19,240 --> 00:23:23,919 Speaker 1: a lot of their proportions are super busty or super leggy, 364 00:23:24,560 --> 00:23:29,840 Speaker 1: and it lends itself to sexy costumes. And even when 365 00:23:30,440 --> 00:23:32,440 Speaker 1: you know we're doing you know, if you're doing a 366 00:23:32,560 --> 00:23:37,159 Speaker 1: femb costume of a male character like I mentioned jokingly, uh, 367 00:23:37,400 --> 00:23:42,240 Speaker 1: a lot of times those costumes get sexy and provocative 368 00:23:42,400 --> 00:23:44,800 Speaker 1: as well. And while some of the cosplay world have 369 00:23:44,960 --> 00:23:47,240 Speaker 1: argued that, you know what, that's too sexy, it's too booby, 370 00:23:47,440 --> 00:23:49,680 Speaker 1: that's not what it's about. Um. The fact of the 371 00:23:49,720 --> 00:23:52,919 Speaker 1: matter is, even if you are wearing a super sexy costume, 372 00:23:52,960 --> 00:23:56,600 Speaker 1: whether it is being faithful to that original character portrayal, 373 00:23:56,800 --> 00:23:59,880 Speaker 1: or if you are reinterpreting a costume in a sex 374 00:24:00,040 --> 00:24:05,160 Speaker 1: your version, that's not an invitation for someone to touch 375 00:24:05,280 --> 00:24:08,680 Speaker 1: you or take up skirt photos of you or verbally 376 00:24:09,080 --> 00:24:12,480 Speaker 1: harass you. And unfortunately that has become at least a 377 00:24:12,560 --> 00:24:17,440 Speaker 1: more media prominent part of the cons So for instance, 378 00:24:17,520 --> 00:24:19,920 Speaker 1: recently with the San Diego Comic Con, there was this 379 00:24:20,240 --> 00:24:25,160 Speaker 1: entire initiative started by a group called Geeks War Consent. 380 00:24:25,440 --> 00:24:29,760 Speaker 1: That's capital c O N sent consent, Yeah, and Geeks 381 00:24:29,800 --> 00:24:33,159 Speaker 1: for Consent was basically pushing for comic con to adopt 382 00:24:33,440 --> 00:24:37,440 Speaker 1: a stronger, more official anti sexual harassment policy beyond just 383 00:24:37,600 --> 00:24:41,040 Speaker 1: their standard code of conduct, and they ended up collecting 384 00:24:41,160 --> 00:24:44,960 Speaker 1: more than signatures on a petition to get such a policy, 385 00:24:45,600 --> 00:24:48,800 Speaker 1: and they stated on their website that unfortunately some congo 386 00:24:48,960 --> 00:24:51,119 Speaker 1: or see women in costumes it's just a part of 387 00:24:51,160 --> 00:24:54,159 Speaker 1: the convention scenery and believe that they are dressed up 388 00:24:54,280 --> 00:24:57,080 Speaker 1: solely to attract mail attention. And you know, they're arguing 389 00:24:57,119 --> 00:24:59,760 Speaker 1: that it's not fair that, like, if you have a male, 390 00:25:00,000 --> 00:25:02,080 Speaker 1: for instance, just to use the example of a male 391 00:25:02,160 --> 00:25:06,320 Speaker 1: to female cross player, like you know, he's praised for 392 00:25:06,440 --> 00:25:10,119 Speaker 1: being so faithful to the character's depiction. And so if 393 00:25:10,160 --> 00:25:12,040 Speaker 1: you have a woman who wants to pick a strong 394 00:25:12,119 --> 00:25:15,800 Speaker 1: woman from anime or video games or movies or something, 395 00:25:16,560 --> 00:25:19,480 Speaker 1: and that character happens to be scantily clad or wearing 396 00:25:19,480 --> 00:25:22,760 Speaker 1: a crop top or ripped jeans or something, you know, 397 00:25:22,880 --> 00:25:25,280 Speaker 1: they want to be faithful to that strong character. And 398 00:25:25,440 --> 00:25:29,240 Speaker 1: sometimes that just involves being scantily clad themselves. But that 399 00:25:29,440 --> 00:25:33,600 Speaker 1: is not an okay, a past to harass these women, 400 00:25:33,640 --> 00:25:35,320 Speaker 1: grow these women, and it's what so many have to 401 00:25:35,440 --> 00:25:39,640 Speaker 1: end up dealing with. Yeah, there are groups that are 402 00:25:40,000 --> 00:25:45,000 Speaker 1: working to address this matter and to improve things. For instance, 403 00:25:45,080 --> 00:25:48,479 Speaker 1: the New York Cause Player Network has put together panels 404 00:25:48,520 --> 00:25:50,800 Speaker 1: to teach women how to stay safe and also deal 405 00:25:51,240 --> 00:25:55,440 Speaker 1: with harassment, although it does seem like it's not necessarily well, 406 00:25:55,600 --> 00:25:57,920 Speaker 1: let's just say it's not just the women who could 407 00:25:58,040 --> 00:26:02,960 Speaker 1: use some education regarding harassment and how to behave um. 408 00:26:03,520 --> 00:26:05,959 Speaker 1: And then beyond that, there have been some issues, particularly 409 00:26:06,240 --> 00:26:09,960 Speaker 1: with CAUSE players of color, because you know, as we 410 00:26:10,040 --> 00:26:15,080 Speaker 1: talked about, when it comes to cosplay, authenticity is the 411 00:26:15,240 --> 00:26:18,240 Speaker 1: number one currency. If you can look down to a 412 00:26:18,359 --> 00:26:22,920 Speaker 1: t like a particular character, then you are golden. But 413 00:26:23,160 --> 00:26:28,840 Speaker 1: when it comes to representation in UH comic book heroes, 414 00:26:29,000 --> 00:26:32,440 Speaker 1: for instance, a lot of them not only are male, 415 00:26:32,520 --> 00:26:36,280 Speaker 1: but they're also very white as well. So there's actually 416 00:26:36,280 --> 00:26:41,119 Speaker 1: a tumbler um called cosplaying while black, just to offer 417 00:26:41,280 --> 00:26:45,400 Speaker 1: some visibility to you know, Cause players of color that hey, look, 418 00:26:45,800 --> 00:26:48,480 Speaker 1: we can cause play too, just because our skin tone 419 00:26:48,600 --> 00:26:51,800 Speaker 1: might not match the skin tone of whatever character we 420 00:26:52,000 --> 00:26:56,280 Speaker 1: are dressing up as. Yeah, I I hated reading the 421 00:26:56,400 --> 00:27:00,320 Speaker 1: kinds of things that blogger Shaka cumber Batch over at 422 00:27:00,359 --> 00:27:03,800 Speaker 1: Exo Jane had to face when she dressed up as 423 00:27:03,840 --> 00:27:06,280 Speaker 1: Sailor Moon. She was like talking about how excited she 424 00:27:06,400 --> 00:27:08,560 Speaker 1: was to dress up as this character. How great of 425 00:27:08,600 --> 00:27:12,240 Speaker 1: a time she had, but that one single picture of 426 00:27:12,320 --> 00:27:16,879 Speaker 1: her dressed in character like blew the internet up with 427 00:27:17,040 --> 00:27:22,560 Speaker 1: people saying incredibly awful racist things and essentially boiled down 428 00:27:22,600 --> 00:27:26,160 Speaker 1: to you she wasn't suited because of her skin, because 429 00:27:26,200 --> 00:27:29,480 Speaker 1: of the her face shape, her nose shape, she wasn't 430 00:27:29,600 --> 00:27:33,640 Speaker 1: suited for such a cute character. I did like her point, though, 431 00:27:33,680 --> 00:27:36,360 Speaker 1: and she says, you know, I don't understand being attacked 432 00:27:36,400 --> 00:27:40,119 Speaker 1: for not being accurate down to my skin color, because 433 00:27:40,400 --> 00:27:42,480 Speaker 1: no one can be accurate when a character is eight 434 00:27:42,520 --> 00:27:46,280 Speaker 1: feet tall with quote basketballs for boobs, which is a 435 00:27:46,400 --> 00:27:49,119 Speaker 1: very good point because there there have been issues not 436 00:27:49,320 --> 00:27:53,719 Speaker 1: only with cosplayers of color, but also people of different 437 00:27:53,840 --> 00:27:58,000 Speaker 1: body shapes and sizes being called out, especially if they 438 00:27:58,080 --> 00:28:01,680 Speaker 1: might be wearing a tighter geting or a more skin 439 00:28:01,880 --> 00:28:06,280 Speaker 1: revealing costume, of saying, oh, no, you you're too you're 440 00:28:06,320 --> 00:28:08,880 Speaker 1: too big to wear that. None, none of that now, 441 00:28:09,160 --> 00:28:12,240 Speaker 1: where you know that the people who are really invested 442 00:28:12,280 --> 00:28:15,920 Speaker 1: in cosplay would say, but that's the whole part of this. 443 00:28:16,119 --> 00:28:18,680 Speaker 1: This is for everybody. This is this space where I 444 00:28:18,800 --> 00:28:23,639 Speaker 1: can bring all of my super geeky fandom that people 445 00:28:23,680 --> 00:28:26,240 Speaker 1: that I work with are people that I, you know, 446 00:28:26,400 --> 00:28:28,879 Speaker 1: see regularly in public just might not get about me. 447 00:28:29,160 --> 00:28:32,159 Speaker 1: This is where people can get me. So why do 448 00:28:32,280 --> 00:28:34,880 Speaker 1: I need to look a certain way? And that whole 449 00:28:34,920 --> 00:28:38,880 Speaker 1: issue too of of visibility and representation UM and cosplay 450 00:28:39,000 --> 00:28:44,120 Speaker 1: for everyone is another reason why. Sort of as jumping 451 00:28:44,200 --> 00:28:48,160 Speaker 1: off from cosplaying while black, there's also a popular cause 452 00:28:48,240 --> 00:28:52,000 Speaker 1: playing while trans tumbler because it was started by a 453 00:28:52,200 --> 00:28:54,360 Speaker 1: trans woman who said, you know what, I caused by 454 00:28:54,400 --> 00:28:58,400 Speaker 1: all the time, and I wanted some costume inspiration from 455 00:28:58,560 --> 00:29:02,960 Speaker 1: other trans cause players I could find nothing. Yeah, and 456 00:29:03,080 --> 00:29:06,400 Speaker 1: so that started as well because you know, and there 457 00:29:06,440 --> 00:29:09,880 Speaker 1: were a lot of people who came out on the 458 00:29:10,280 --> 00:29:13,200 Speaker 1: tumbler sharing their photos and talking about how wonderful it 459 00:29:13,320 --> 00:29:16,880 Speaker 1: was to see other trans people cosplaying because they felt 460 00:29:16,920 --> 00:29:19,520 Speaker 1: like they always needed to keep their sort of identity 461 00:29:19,800 --> 00:29:23,560 Speaker 1: under wraps for fear of discrimination. Yeah, a lot of 462 00:29:23,880 --> 00:29:27,960 Speaker 1: the trans cost players in this article we're sort of 463 00:29:28,000 --> 00:29:29,680 Speaker 1: talking about how they were on the defense. They had 464 00:29:29,720 --> 00:29:32,600 Speaker 1: to run defense all the time because people, it's that 465 00:29:32,680 --> 00:29:36,000 Speaker 1: whole layer gendered thing. You know, are you are you cosplaying? 466 00:29:36,040 --> 00:29:38,440 Speaker 1: Are you cross playing? You know what? Are you really? 467 00:29:38,520 --> 00:29:41,080 Speaker 1: You're really a guy, like having to face that abuse 468 00:29:41,160 --> 00:29:43,120 Speaker 1: so not only do you have to deal with potential 469 00:29:43,160 --> 00:29:45,560 Speaker 1: sexual harassment, but you also have to deal with people 470 00:29:45,600 --> 00:29:49,600 Speaker 1: harassing you for like not being biologically accurate. I don't know, 471 00:29:49,680 --> 00:29:54,080 Speaker 1: it's like there's there's so many ways to to be attacked. Well, 472 00:29:54,160 --> 00:29:57,240 Speaker 1: it's interesting that that's happening, to that it would happen, 473 00:29:57,320 --> 00:30:00,880 Speaker 1: and I really hope that this is the exception. I 474 00:30:00,920 --> 00:30:03,320 Speaker 1: don't think that this is really the rule. Um, But 475 00:30:03,680 --> 00:30:06,040 Speaker 1: these are instances that are certainly getting a lot more 476 00:30:06,080 --> 00:30:09,280 Speaker 1: attention as they should. Um. But it's fascinating that these 477 00:30:09,400 --> 00:30:14,400 Speaker 1: kinds of things come up in an area where it 478 00:30:14,560 --> 00:30:16,920 Speaker 1: seems like it should all be about, you know, it's 479 00:30:16,960 --> 00:30:19,800 Speaker 1: all it's all about sort of deconstructing gender, you know, 480 00:30:20,040 --> 00:30:21,760 Speaker 1: and what I mean, and and a lot of these 481 00:30:21,960 --> 00:30:27,360 Speaker 1: a lot of these characters aren't even human, So what's 482 00:30:27,400 --> 00:30:32,080 Speaker 1: the problem here exactly? Okay, Well, moving to you know, 483 00:30:32,120 --> 00:30:36,000 Speaker 1: we want to continue this this gender discussion of cosplaying, 484 00:30:36,200 --> 00:30:40,040 Speaker 1: but we obviously have to bring feminism into it, because 485 00:30:40,240 --> 00:30:42,880 Speaker 1: I mean, you could go in a circle forever talking 486 00:30:42,920 --> 00:30:47,120 Speaker 1: about a woman cosplayer dressing up as a scantily clad 487 00:30:47,200 --> 00:30:50,880 Speaker 1: comic book character and whether that's empowering and feminist or 488 00:30:51,040 --> 00:30:55,480 Speaker 1: whether that's being she's being exploited. I mean, it's quite 489 00:30:55,520 --> 00:30:57,800 Speaker 1: a discussion. It is quite a discussion. The fact the 490 00:30:57,880 --> 00:31:03,240 Speaker 1: matter is, there are professional cause playing women, um who 491 00:31:03,360 --> 00:31:06,840 Speaker 1: essentially are just their models. They're very attractive women with 492 00:31:07,040 --> 00:31:11,360 Speaker 1: very conventionally attractive bodies that involve large breasts and small 493 00:31:11,440 --> 00:31:17,480 Speaker 1: waist and attractive behind, and they you know, have fan 494 00:31:17,640 --> 00:31:21,560 Speaker 1: groups and fan pages and make money, you know, by 495 00:31:21,640 --> 00:31:25,440 Speaker 1: going to different cons and dressing up and their costumes 496 00:31:25,480 --> 00:31:28,680 Speaker 1: obviously are sexy, and that's the whole point of it, 497 00:31:29,120 --> 00:31:33,640 Speaker 1: and not everybody likes that. So, for instance, if someone 498 00:31:33,840 --> 00:31:38,240 Speaker 1: like Jessica Nigri, who is a professional cause player, she's 499 00:31:38,600 --> 00:31:41,240 Speaker 1: probably one of the most successful and well known and 500 00:31:41,840 --> 00:31:45,240 Speaker 1: is very sexy. If she goes to a con, people 501 00:31:45,320 --> 00:31:48,440 Speaker 1: complain that, well, it's hard to get anywhere because people 502 00:31:48,440 --> 00:31:50,680 Speaker 1: are just crowding up to you know, and by people, 503 00:31:50,800 --> 00:31:53,800 Speaker 1: it's usually all guys crowding to take photos with her. 504 00:31:54,080 --> 00:31:57,800 Speaker 1: And it's women like that who are making it super 505 00:31:57,920 --> 00:32:00,840 Speaker 1: sexy who are ruining it or the rest of us, 506 00:32:01,120 --> 00:32:04,440 Speaker 1: to which Jessica at all, who are also you know, 507 00:32:05,160 --> 00:32:08,680 Speaker 1: making money off of this, partially because they look really 508 00:32:08,720 --> 00:32:12,920 Speaker 1: great in sexy costumes. Say hey, now, no, I'm just 509 00:32:13,200 --> 00:32:26,920 Speaker 1: this is what I'm doing. So there's a lot of 510 00:32:27,040 --> 00:32:29,960 Speaker 1: argument over whether something like that is empowering and feminist 511 00:32:30,120 --> 00:32:32,080 Speaker 1: or not. And an I g N actually talked to 512 00:32:32,320 --> 00:32:37,200 Speaker 1: three women cost players who talked a lot about enjoying 513 00:32:37,320 --> 00:32:40,360 Speaker 1: the validation and attention that comes along with dressing up 514 00:32:40,440 --> 00:32:44,880 Speaker 1: like this, a feeling feminine and or powerful, and also 515 00:32:45,080 --> 00:32:49,800 Speaker 1: using their sexuality, all of this in the framework of feminism. 516 00:32:49,960 --> 00:32:52,920 Speaker 1: But they also do talk in this interview a lot 517 00:32:52,960 --> 00:32:56,840 Speaker 1: about the extreme sexual harassment that they face, whether it's 518 00:32:56,880 --> 00:33:00,240 Speaker 1: just verbal or actually physical, and the misogyny that they 519 00:33:00,320 --> 00:33:04,560 Speaker 1: know exists. But the whole thing about talking to these 520 00:33:04,600 --> 00:33:09,800 Speaker 1: three women is, um, they really really took issue with feminism. Yeah, 521 00:33:09,800 --> 00:33:14,640 Speaker 1: they all completely disavowed feminism because it seemed like the 522 00:33:14,880 --> 00:33:18,800 Speaker 1: women who were most critical of them were coming from 523 00:33:19,200 --> 00:33:23,320 Speaker 1: a feminist stance, basically saying that they were degrading themselves 524 00:33:23,760 --> 00:33:26,960 Speaker 1: by being sexy. And this this gets into a whole 525 00:33:27,040 --> 00:33:31,600 Speaker 1: different kind of conversation though, Well, yeah, because somebody like 526 00:33:31,720 --> 00:33:35,200 Speaker 1: the Vixen gamer she says, we're seeing a big spearhead 527 00:33:35,240 --> 00:33:38,440 Speaker 1: of feminism in the gaming industry, and I think, don't 528 00:33:38,520 --> 00:33:43,040 Speaker 1: sacrifice your feminine femininity to fit in, and then there's 529 00:33:43,040 --> 00:33:46,000 Speaker 1: the whole conversation of well what is I mean, let's 530 00:33:46,000 --> 00:33:49,320 Speaker 1: not get super philosophical right now, but like, what is femininity? 531 00:33:49,440 --> 00:33:51,719 Speaker 1: And who are you being feminine? Four? And who are 532 00:33:51,760 --> 00:33:54,080 Speaker 1: you performing your gender? Four? And are you really doing 533 00:33:54,120 --> 00:33:56,760 Speaker 1: it to make yourself happy? Or are you doing it 534 00:33:56,920 --> 00:34:01,240 Speaker 1: because you are fitting into what men expect of you? 535 00:34:02,640 --> 00:34:05,200 Speaker 1: And on and on and on. I am I would 536 00:34:05,240 --> 00:34:09,600 Speaker 1: love to hear from cause players on this particular issue, 537 00:34:09,680 --> 00:34:13,360 Speaker 1: because you know you and I can only offer outside 538 00:34:13,400 --> 00:34:16,719 Speaker 1: perspectives to me that the simplest way to boil it 539 00:34:16,840 --> 00:34:20,680 Speaker 1: down is, Ladies, you do you okay if this is 540 00:34:20,719 --> 00:34:24,239 Speaker 1: the way that you make your your money and you 541 00:34:24,400 --> 00:34:31,120 Speaker 1: feel empowered and safe doing it, okay? But do other 542 00:34:31,320 --> 00:34:36,279 Speaker 1: lady caused players a solid and unlike black Cat, don't 543 00:34:36,719 --> 00:34:41,759 Speaker 1: blame them for men behaving badly, because, as she describes, 544 00:34:42,160 --> 00:34:46,319 Speaker 1: if you don't turn around and threaten to hurt them 545 00:34:46,520 --> 00:34:50,360 Speaker 1: in the penis region, then you're the one to blame 546 00:34:50,480 --> 00:34:52,759 Speaker 1: for your own harassment. It's like everyone just needs to 547 00:34:52,840 --> 00:34:55,000 Speaker 1: Could we all just get on the same page regarding 548 00:34:55,040 --> 00:34:58,520 Speaker 1: harassment and good behavior? And could you just promote good 549 00:34:58,600 --> 00:35:04,040 Speaker 1: behavior and and then can't we all just con together 550 00:35:04,200 --> 00:35:09,080 Speaker 1: and in peace and harmony. That would be great. But 551 00:35:09,360 --> 00:35:11,640 Speaker 1: something that I thought was so strange, and and another 552 00:35:11,719 --> 00:35:14,120 Speaker 1: blogger thought this was odd too. But in this interview 553 00:35:14,280 --> 00:35:19,400 Speaker 1: Ardella cost Player, Ardella says that sexism is really a 554 00:35:19,520 --> 00:35:22,360 Speaker 1: point of view. It's how you react to it and 555 00:35:22,480 --> 00:35:25,360 Speaker 1: how you betray yourself as to whether or not you 556 00:35:25,560 --> 00:35:29,360 Speaker 1: allow people to objectify you. She basically said, don't let 557 00:35:29,360 --> 00:35:31,520 Speaker 1: anyone treat you like an object if that's not the 558 00:35:31,560 --> 00:35:33,840 Speaker 1: way you want to be treated to, which, you know, 559 00:35:33,920 --> 00:35:35,640 Speaker 1: I just like my eyes rolled into the back of 560 00:35:35,719 --> 00:35:40,759 Speaker 1: my head because Okay, Blogger intrat Sceptive a k a. 561 00:35:40,880 --> 00:35:44,440 Speaker 1: Readjenkins had an appropriate response. I thought she said that 562 00:35:44,520 --> 00:35:48,480 Speaker 1: to suggest that sexism, rather than being inherently wrong, is 563 00:35:48,520 --> 00:35:51,040 Speaker 1: simply a matter of how the person affected deals with 564 00:35:51,200 --> 00:35:54,839 Speaker 1: it is ridiculous, and she takes issue with a lot 565 00:35:54,920 --> 00:35:58,759 Speaker 1: of the arguments that were raised in the interview. Well yeah, 566 00:35:58,760 --> 00:36:01,799 Speaker 1: I mean she compared that to saying, uh, you know, okay, 567 00:36:01,880 --> 00:36:06,200 Speaker 1: so let's take this this assertion that sexism is just 568 00:36:06,440 --> 00:36:10,279 Speaker 1: how you, the the the objectified person deals with it. 569 00:36:10,400 --> 00:36:12,160 Speaker 1: She was like, okay, if you said that, but just 570 00:36:12,440 --> 00:36:17,360 Speaker 1: replaced sexism with racism, clearly everyone would disagree with you, 571 00:36:17,560 --> 00:36:21,319 Speaker 1: and so it's a similar kind of thing with sexism. 572 00:36:21,719 --> 00:36:26,040 Speaker 1: Um Over at the Geek Feminism blog, Uh, there's an 573 00:36:26,280 --> 00:36:32,040 Speaker 1: entire more academic presentation on this whole issue of the 574 00:36:32,160 --> 00:36:36,560 Speaker 1: sexy geek cause play thing, and um she talks about 575 00:36:36,560 --> 00:36:40,880 Speaker 1: how quote geek media representations of women influence geek women's 576 00:36:40,960 --> 00:36:46,279 Speaker 1: decisions to dress in sexy cause play, and how what 577 00:36:46,520 --> 00:36:50,200 Speaker 1: makes sexy cosplay sexy is not just that women are attractive, 578 00:36:50,560 --> 00:36:54,560 Speaker 1: but that they're performing and actively seeking the mail approval. 579 00:36:54,600 --> 00:36:56,440 Speaker 1: It's that question that you raise, Caroline of, like, well, 580 00:36:56,480 --> 00:37:00,000 Speaker 1: who are you performing this for? And obviously for professional 581 00:37:00,000 --> 00:37:03,320 Speaker 1: all cosplayers who make money off of other people buying 582 00:37:03,760 --> 00:37:08,200 Speaker 1: calendars and whatnot of them in sexy costumes. Yeah, obviously 583 00:37:08,280 --> 00:37:12,000 Speaker 1: they're performing it for, you know, to to look sexy 584 00:37:12,120 --> 00:37:17,040 Speaker 1: for the male gaze. That's their job. Yeah yeah, But 585 00:37:17,080 --> 00:37:19,359 Speaker 1: I mean I guess they're talking to about like people 586 00:37:19,400 --> 00:37:22,440 Speaker 1: who aren't just the just the professional ones, not just 587 00:37:22,560 --> 00:37:25,879 Speaker 1: the professional cost players, but just um women who might 588 00:37:25,920 --> 00:37:28,960 Speaker 1: go to these cons and do want to capture that 589 00:37:29,120 --> 00:37:33,959 Speaker 1: empowered feeling by dressing a certain way. And the geek 590 00:37:34,000 --> 00:37:37,840 Speaker 1: Feminism blogger talked about how it is that particular type 591 00:37:37,960 --> 00:37:41,400 Speaker 1: of gender performance that is rewarded in this culture, whether 592 00:37:41,480 --> 00:37:44,800 Speaker 1: you're a professional or an amateur. To me, the Geeks 593 00:37:44,840 --> 00:37:49,320 Speaker 1: for Consent response is sort of the cleanest across the 594 00:37:49,440 --> 00:37:52,200 Speaker 1: board response to all of this, which is simply that 595 00:37:52,719 --> 00:37:59,640 Speaker 1: cosplay does not equal consent. And perhaps if you know, 596 00:37:59,719 --> 00:38:02,720 Speaker 1: common con as other cons are doing outlines of stricter 597 00:38:03,160 --> 00:38:06,080 Speaker 1: sexual harassment policy. The more that people talk about it, 598 00:38:06,200 --> 00:38:09,200 Speaker 1: the more media coverage it gets, the more you know, 599 00:38:09,400 --> 00:38:14,279 Speaker 1: perhaps these kinds of behaviors that tain't the cosplay experience 600 00:38:14,960 --> 00:38:19,400 Speaker 1: UM might improve. Yeah, well, we can look to Washington, 601 00:38:19,520 --> 00:38:22,640 Speaker 1: d C is awesome Con as an example where this worked. 602 00:38:23,160 --> 00:38:27,440 Speaker 1: UM Awesome Con partnered with Geeks for Consent to provide 603 00:38:27,480 --> 00:38:29,920 Speaker 1: a team on site who could act as a resource 604 00:38:29,960 --> 00:38:34,000 Speaker 1: for attendees who feel unsafe. UM and awesome Con now 605 00:38:34,239 --> 00:38:39,360 Speaker 1: has adopted a zero tolerance policy against harassment, groping, stalking, 606 00:38:39,440 --> 00:38:43,680 Speaker 1: and inappropriate photography, and they said that gender based harassment 607 00:38:43,760 --> 00:38:46,600 Speaker 1: doesn't have to happen in the workplace to be unacceptable. 608 00:38:46,640 --> 00:38:48,800 Speaker 1: And so I think it's great that there are groups 609 00:38:48,840 --> 00:38:51,520 Speaker 1: out there and cons out there who are taking definite 610 00:38:51,560 --> 00:38:53,480 Speaker 1: concrete steps to say hey, no, no, no, no, no, 611 00:38:54,040 --> 00:38:57,040 Speaker 1: you don't get to be a harasser and you shouldn't 612 00:38:57,080 --> 00:38:59,200 Speaker 1: have to be a victim just because you want to 613 00:38:59,239 --> 00:39:02,160 Speaker 1: come to this convey mention like harassment is not an 614 00:39:02,200 --> 00:39:05,560 Speaker 1: acceptable part of dressing up and having an awesome time 615 00:39:05,600 --> 00:39:08,719 Speaker 1: with your fellow geek culture people. Well, personally, I don't 616 00:39:08,800 --> 00:39:12,960 Speaker 1: feel qualified to jump directly into this phray regarding you know, 617 00:39:13,080 --> 00:39:17,319 Speaker 1: all of the causeplay politics of sexy costumes. I think 618 00:39:17,600 --> 00:39:19,160 Speaker 1: there are a lot of different layers to it in 619 00:39:19,360 --> 00:39:24,280 Speaker 1: terms of the representations of women in these fandom sources, 620 00:39:24,440 --> 00:39:29,560 Speaker 1: the source texts and sourced films and television shows and etcetera. Um, 621 00:39:30,400 --> 00:39:33,520 Speaker 1: we are relying on our audience to fill in the 622 00:39:33,600 --> 00:39:35,919 Speaker 1: blank for this, because I know we got some cause 623 00:39:35,960 --> 00:39:39,520 Speaker 1: players listening. Yeah. I cannot wait to see your pictures. 624 00:39:39,600 --> 00:39:43,480 Speaker 1: By the way, yes, please send us photos. They are appreciated. Yeah, 625 00:39:43,480 --> 00:39:45,160 Speaker 1: I want to see photos, and I want to hear 626 00:39:45,239 --> 00:39:48,080 Speaker 1: from you if you've had any of these sorts of 627 00:39:48,200 --> 00:39:51,560 Speaker 1: whether you're male or female, cosplaying or cross playing, I 628 00:39:51,640 --> 00:39:53,840 Speaker 1: do want to hear from you about has have you 629 00:39:53,920 --> 00:39:56,320 Speaker 1: faced harassment or have you just been getting high fives 630 00:39:56,360 --> 00:39:57,719 Speaker 1: everywhere you go? I want to, I want to hear 631 00:39:57,719 --> 00:40:01,160 Speaker 1: about it, and is this something that is overblown in 632 00:40:01,480 --> 00:40:04,279 Speaker 1: the media. Is this simply, you know, sort of a 633 00:40:04,440 --> 00:40:10,520 Speaker 1: very small aspect of con the con life um that 634 00:40:10,880 --> 00:40:15,480 Speaker 1: maybe gets too much attention. Let us know Mom's Stuff 635 00:40:15,600 --> 00:40:17,759 Speaker 1: at how Stuffwork dot com is our email address. You 636 00:40:17,800 --> 00:40:21,040 Speaker 1: can also tweet us at mom Stuff podcast or messages 637 00:40:21,120 --> 00:40:23,440 Speaker 1: on Facebook, and we have a couple of messages to 638 00:40:23,520 --> 00:40:31,239 Speaker 1: share with you right now. We have some letters here 639 00:40:31,400 --> 00:40:36,640 Speaker 1: about our Wanderlust Traveling Women episode. I have one from Anna. 640 00:40:37,640 --> 00:40:40,000 Speaker 1: She said, three years ago, I had a stable partner, 641 00:40:40,120 --> 00:40:43,239 Speaker 1: good job prospects, and a home. I soon discovered I 642 00:40:43,280 --> 00:40:45,239 Speaker 1: was pregnant and gave up my career to start down 643 00:40:45,280 --> 00:40:48,520 Speaker 1: the path of motherhood. Later, I experienced a rather traumatic 644 00:40:48,640 --> 00:40:50,640 Speaker 1: miscarriage in which I had to have a d n C. 645 00:40:51,480 --> 00:40:54,360 Speaker 1: Following my miscarriage, my partner left me and blamed me 646 00:40:54,480 --> 00:40:57,600 Speaker 1: for the loss of the child. Realizing that I gave 647 00:40:57,680 --> 00:40:59,640 Speaker 1: up my career for a child that would never be 648 00:41:00,120 --> 00:41:02,680 Speaker 1: that resulted in the loss of my partner was too much, 649 00:41:03,120 --> 00:41:05,800 Speaker 1: so I decided that I needed to go. I didn't 650 00:41:05,880 --> 00:41:09,040 Speaker 1: just travel, but I moved to rural Japan by myself. 651 00:41:09,560 --> 00:41:12,759 Speaker 1: I've since moved around the southern island of Kyushu, met 652 00:41:12,800 --> 00:41:15,160 Speaker 1: my future husband, and have been enjoying the freedom that 653 00:41:15,280 --> 00:41:18,799 Speaker 1: comes with being a contract worker in Japan. I've never 654 00:41:18,920 --> 00:41:21,919 Speaker 1: read any travel memoirs, and this podcast was the first 655 00:41:21,960 --> 00:41:24,320 Speaker 1: time I didn't feel alone and what happened to me. 656 00:41:24,840 --> 00:41:27,320 Speaker 1: I think more women should go out and live in 657 00:41:27,400 --> 00:41:29,680 Speaker 1: another country by themselves for a while, because it really 658 00:41:29,760 --> 00:41:32,040 Speaker 1: does help you to see how small your problems are 659 00:41:32,600 --> 00:41:35,400 Speaker 1: in the grand scheme of things. But thanks Anna, and 660 00:41:35,440 --> 00:41:38,319 Speaker 1: I've got a similar letter here from Nadlie about um 661 00:41:38,480 --> 00:41:43,880 Speaker 1: how she got wander lusty after a breakup. She writes, 662 00:41:44,520 --> 00:41:47,279 Speaker 1: it's almost embarrassing how true most of the things you 663 00:41:47,360 --> 00:41:50,120 Speaker 1: discussed are in regard to myself and my story over 664 00:41:50,160 --> 00:41:52,840 Speaker 1: the past year, my significant other of eleven years and 665 00:41:52,920 --> 00:41:55,919 Speaker 1: I broke up and I found myself lost, never having 666 00:41:56,000 --> 00:41:58,840 Speaker 1: experienced adult life without him. I'm a school teacher and 667 00:41:58,920 --> 00:42:00,560 Speaker 1: have the summer's off, which allow me to take what 668 00:42:00,680 --> 00:42:03,759 Speaker 1: I refer to as an epic summer adventure, all of 669 00:42:03,800 --> 00:42:06,680 Speaker 1: which she capitalized. I got in my car and just 670 00:42:06,880 --> 00:42:09,239 Speaker 1: drove to as many places as I could. I think 671 00:42:09,320 --> 00:42:11,400 Speaker 1: the most life changing spot for me was seeing the 672 00:42:11,440 --> 00:42:13,879 Speaker 1: Grand Canyon for the first time. It could be because 673 00:42:13,920 --> 00:42:15,920 Speaker 1: of how impressive the Grand Canyon is, but I think 674 00:42:16,000 --> 00:42:18,320 Speaker 1: it was more because it was my first major stop. 675 00:42:18,840 --> 00:42:20,800 Speaker 1: Walking up to this amazing place that exists in the 676 00:42:20,880 --> 00:42:22,920 Speaker 1: world and knowing that I got there by myself was 677 00:42:23,000 --> 00:42:26,320 Speaker 1: completely and utterly overwhelming and empowering. I sat on the 678 00:42:26,400 --> 00:42:28,959 Speaker 1: rim of the canyon and just cried while others walked 679 00:42:29,000 --> 00:42:32,000 Speaker 1: around me, wondering what my problem was. After that, I 680 00:42:32,120 --> 00:42:34,680 Speaker 1: knew that I could do anything, and that being alone 681 00:42:34,760 --> 00:42:37,200 Speaker 1: has some great benefits. You can check out a blog 682 00:42:37,280 --> 00:42:39,920 Speaker 1: I kept while I was gone at Natalie Genie dot 683 00:42:40,000 --> 00:42:42,560 Speaker 1: tumbler dot com and see photos from my trip on 684 00:42:42,640 --> 00:42:46,919 Speaker 1: my Instagram using the hashtag my Epic Summer Adventure. Thanks 685 00:42:46,960 --> 00:42:48,680 Speaker 1: for all the time and effort you put into your show. 686 00:42:48,800 --> 00:42:53,200 Speaker 1: You never disappoint, So thanks Natalie, and thanks everybody who's 687 00:42:53,200 --> 00:42:55,879 Speaker 1: written into us. Mom Stepp at how Stuffworks dot com 688 00:42:56,000 --> 00:42:58,400 Speaker 1: is our email address and for links to all of 689 00:42:58,560 --> 00:43:02,320 Speaker 1: our social media's as well as all of our blog post, videos, 690 00:43:02,400 --> 00:43:05,760 Speaker 1: and podcasts, including this one, which also includes its sources 691 00:43:05,840 --> 00:43:08,400 Speaker 1: so you can follow along. There's one place to go, 692 00:43:08,680 --> 00:43:14,759 Speaker 1: and it's stuff Mom Never Told You dot com For 693 00:43:14,920 --> 00:43:17,200 Speaker 1: more on this and thousands of other topics. Is it 694 00:43:17,320 --> 00:43:18,439 Speaker 1: how stuff works dot com