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Speaker 1: Hey everyone, it's susy. Since we originally published this episode

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Speaker 1: in May of twenty twenty four, there have been significant

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Speaker 1: developments for Lyle and Eric Menendez, brothers, who were convicted

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Speaker 1: of murdering their parents in the early nineteen nineties. The

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Speaker 1: brothers do not deny the killings, but they say they

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Speaker 1: endured years of sexual and emotional abuse from their father,

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Speaker 1: and a recent documentary and a docudrama on Netflix have

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Speaker 1: reignited interest in their case. A number of their family

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Speaker 1: members have come forward with impassion pleas for their release,

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Speaker 1: saying that they believe them about the abuse, and on

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Speaker 1: October twenty fourth, in a studying development, the Los Angeles

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Speaker 1: District Attorney said that he would request that the Menendez

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Speaker 1: brothers be resentenced.

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Speaker 2: I believe that they have paid their debt to society,

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Speaker 2: and the system provides a vehicle for their case to

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Speaker 2: be reviewed by a parole bar and the role concurs

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Speaker 2: with my assessment, and it will be their decision. There

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Speaker 2: will be released accordantly.

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Speaker 1: If you're looking for contacts. This episode explains how we

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Speaker 1: arrived at this extraordinary moment, and how kids on social

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Speaker 1: media played an important role, and how new evidence may

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Speaker 1: impact whether they are ultimately released, and as a warning,

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Speaker 1: we discuss the sexual and emotional abuse of children in detail.

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Speaker 3: Are we with the stands here?

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Speaker 4: I mean maybe like the romantic stands? Yeah, But now

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Speaker 4: you tell this in the light of twenty twenty four

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Speaker 4: makes it sound like the TikTokers are actually onto something.

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Speaker 1: I'm Susie BANACHERM and I'm Jessica Bennett. And this is

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Speaker 1: in Retrospect, where each week we revisit a cultural moment

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Speaker 1: from the past that shaped.

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Speaker 4: Us and that we just can't stop thinking about.

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Speaker 1: Today, we're talking about Lyle and Eric Menendez, two Beverly

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Speaker 1: Hills brothers convicted of killing their parents in a case

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Speaker 1: that captivated the nation in the early nineteen nineties. But

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Speaker 1: we're also talking about how in recent years they have

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Speaker 1: become unlikely social media stars despite being in prison for

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Speaker 1: thirty four years.

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Speaker 4: Susie, I remember so vividly this era of a number

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Speaker 4: of years, when I think I was in high school,

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Speaker 4: the Menanda's brother's case just being constantly, constantly on the

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Speaker 4: air and on television. But it was with some surprise

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Speaker 4: only recently I noticed it was trending on TikTok.

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Speaker 3: Is that why you wanted to talk about.

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Speaker 1: This, Yes, So I also have this memory of this

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Speaker 1: being in the zeitgeist. Like I vaguely knew about this case.

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Speaker 1: I wasn't someone who read all the details or watched

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Speaker 1: the trial as it was happening. But the story about

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Speaker 1: them was always the same story, which was they were

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Speaker 1: these two spoiled rich kids from Beverly Hills who had

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Speaker 1: everything they wanted. They killed their parents because they wanted

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Speaker 1: their inheritance and they wanted the parents out of the way.

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Speaker 1: And after they killed them, they went on this wild

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Speaker 1: spending spree. So I hadn't really thought about the Menendez

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Speaker 1: brothers in a long time. I mean, that's a pretty

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Speaker 1: salacious story, and I remember being kind of fascinated by

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Speaker 1: the concept of killing your parents for money that you

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Speaker 1: already had access to, right right, And I think I

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Speaker 1: saw one of the TV movies at the time, although

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Speaker 1: I don't remember it that well. But a few years

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Speaker 1: ago I did start noticing this on TikTok that occasionally

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Speaker 1: in my feed i'd see a video about these brothers.

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Speaker 4: Why did the Menandez brothers kill their own parents?

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Speaker 3: This is part three of this chilling case.

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Speaker 1: Did you hear the latest news about the Menandez brothers.

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Speaker 3: Four facts about the Menendez brothers.

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Speaker 1: Menandez brothers and Menendez brothers, Menendez, these two brothers should

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Speaker 1: be out of prison by now. I sort of just

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Speaker 1: took a mental note. I was like, why is there

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Speaker 1: renewed interest in this? But I sort of chalked it

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Speaker 1: up to how obsessed everyone is with true crime now.

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Speaker 1: But then a couple of years ago, Ezra Marcus wrote

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Speaker 1: a piece for the New York Times. Did you read

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Speaker 1: this piece? Yes? It was called the New Menendez Defenders,

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Speaker 1: and it was about how, seemingly out of nowhere, suddenly

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Speaker 1: hundreds of accounts on TikTok and Instagram were dedicated to

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Speaker 1: the Menendez brothers and how they didn't receive a fair

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Speaker 1: trial and how the abuse they suffered during their childhoods

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Speaker 1: led to this crime.

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Speaker 5: This became a trial by media, completely sensationalized, many believing

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Speaker 5: that these two preppy, good looking, rich young men had

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Speaker 5: killed their parents for money, and in reality, their motive

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Speaker 5: for murder was far more heartbreaking and dare I say understandable.

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Speaker 1: I honestly had such a vague memory that there had

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Speaker 1: been some abuse allegations. I'm not sure I had ever

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Speaker 1: really paid attention to that, so I thought that was

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Speaker 1: really interesting. And even the way Ezrah describes these accounts

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Speaker 1: as fascinating, right, Like a lot of them are just

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Speaker 1: endless clips from the original trials or news were parts

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Speaker 1: of the time. But some of them are literal fan

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Speaker 1: accounts that are dedicated to how hot the brothers are

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Speaker 1: or were.

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Speaker 3: I guess is wild. It is the wildest.

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Speaker 4: How old were the Menanda's brothers at the time this

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Speaker 4: took place.

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Speaker 1: They were twenty one and eighteen, and they were very attractive,

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Speaker 1: kind of like Beverly Hills preppies at the time. Right,

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Speaker 1: A lot was made of their looks. One of the

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Speaker 1: reporters who covered them at the time talked about how

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Speaker 1: they received thousands of letters a week at the Los

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Speaker 1: Angeles County jail when they were on trial. Some of

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Speaker 1: them contain nude photos and ropes would line up to

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Speaker 1: see the trial. Yes, but these very specific stand culture accounts.

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Speaker 1: They have a certain kind of like dreamy, soft focus vibe,

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Speaker 1: and there's like music and often with the Menanda's brothers,

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Speaker 1: it's stills of them stitched together, often from the trials,

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Speaker 1: very weird things. It is amazing like my love Eric

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Speaker 1: Menendez or Lyle Menendez, and one of them had a

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Speaker 1: video that was captured Happy Birthday King for Eric Menende's birthday,

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Speaker 1: and then just like had pictures from his childhood, which

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Speaker 1: I also found creepy, Like I was like, what are

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Speaker 1: you posting pictures of him when he was like six

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Speaker 1: or seven, especially because what we know now of his

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Speaker 1: childhood is not great. The other thing that the New

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Speaker 1: York Times piece identified was that they're mostly gen z right,

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Speaker 1: and that it's a very international crowd.

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Speaker 3: Oh, it's an international.

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Speaker 1: Crowd, but almost entirely teenagers who have looked at the

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Speaker 1: details of this case and have wondered how the stories

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Speaker 1: of abuse and we'll get into them were not more

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Speaker 1: front and center in the coverage. And it is a

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Speaker 1: good question, Like I have now gone back and fallen

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Speaker 1: into this rabbit hole, and there's a lot of things

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Speaker 1: to think about with this case.

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Speaker 4: Okay, So just to take as a step back for

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Speaker 4: a minute. I know that these things crop up on

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Speaker 4: TikTok and people become obsessed with new subjects from the past,

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Speaker 4: and you don't ever really know why. In this moment,

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Speaker 4: we are talking again about the menandas brothers. So do

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Speaker 4: you know anything about what caused this sudden renewed interest.

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Speaker 1: Well, as you say, it's very hard to pinpoint exactly

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Speaker 1: why something sort of returns. So the Zeidis, there's a

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Speaker 1: couple theories about why. Okay, this has become kind of

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Speaker 1: a popular case again, if that's the right way of

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Speaker 1: framing it. Any did a documentary about them in twenty seventeen,

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Speaker 1: and that didn't get posted on Hulu until twenty nineteen.

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Speaker 1: So there's some sense that when that was posted in

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Speaker 1: twenty nineteen, Blue, where you know a lot of gen

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Speaker 1: z gets their content, they watched this documentary and it

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Speaker 1: renewed their interests. That's sort of where it began. And

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Speaker 1: one of the social media fans in the New York

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Speaker 1: Times piece did talk about watching that A and E documentary,

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Speaker 1: So that might have reintroduced this case to a new

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Speaker 1: generation of true crime. Yeah, but I think the thing

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Speaker 1: that likely had the bigger impact is that during the pandemic,

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Speaker 1: Court TV, which aired this trial, Gabble to Gabble, as

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Speaker 1: they called it. This was one of the first trials

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Speaker 1: where that happened, posted the entire trial to YouTube.

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Speaker 6: And we have both jury panels back in the courtroom

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Speaker 6: and everyone else is present, the defense may call its

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Speaker 6: next witness.

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Speaker 5: Thanks, he just blowman Inus.

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Speaker 4: And so you know, at a time, oh, when we're

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Speaker 4: all at home in the pandemic.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, at a time when everyone's at home and desperate

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Speaker 1: for like interesting content, I think a lot of kids

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Speaker 1: just would have this on all day. And so a

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Speaker 1: lot of TikTok and Instagram accounts start posting videos after that,

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Speaker 1: and Google searches for the Menanda's brother Spike. In May

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Speaker 1: of twenty twenty one, right after Court TV started putting

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Speaker 1: the videos on YouTube of the trial. So I suspect

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Speaker 1: that had a lot to do with it. And another

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Speaker 1: one of the social media supporters from the New York

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Speaker 1: Times piece, a twenty something student from London named Jordan Wynn,

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Speaker 1: talked about how he watched the entire trial during the

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Speaker 1: pandemic and that inspired him to start his Instagram account

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Speaker 1: at Menendez supporter got it. But I went through some

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Speaker 1: of these accounts last week because it had been a

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Speaker 1: while since I looked at them, and I was curious. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and by the way, rip my algorithm. Obviously, I'm just

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Speaker 1: going to be served Menendez brother's content from.

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Speaker 4: Now on yeah, forever for the rest of your life.

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Speaker 1: Sorry. I found that there are still hundreds of accounts

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Speaker 1: and they have millions and millions of views, and it

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Speaker 1: is fascinating. There's one called Menendez Supporter three hours and

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Speaker 1: it has two hundred and sixty five thousand followers and

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Speaker 1: almost thirteen million likes on its videos. One of its

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Speaker 1: pinned videos has almost sixteen million views and the other

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Speaker 1: one has seven million, So it just gives you a

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Speaker 1: sense of how popular this content is. And the most

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Speaker 1: popular accounts tend to be mostly news clips or news

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Speaker 1: reports from the time, clips from the TV movies. There

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Speaker 1: was a Law and Order special. They did a limited

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Speaker 1: series that was just the Menendez brothers a few years ago.

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Speaker 1: Clips from that seemed to do pretty well. Another element

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Speaker 1: of what's happened here in terms of renewed interest is

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Speaker 1: there's a change dot org petition. It was started in

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Speaker 1: March of twenty nineteen and it has about three hundred

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Speaker 1: thousand signatures. But weirdly, it's a petition to Leslie Abramson, who,

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Speaker 1: if you don't know, was Eric's lawyer during his initial trials,

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Speaker 1: and she's kind of a big character herself. She was

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Speaker 1: a petition to do what well to you know, I

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Speaker 1: guess file another appeal. But she's not their appellet attorney.

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Speaker 1: She's not involved in their case anymore at all.

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Speaker 4: Okay, So it's a petition to their former lawyer to

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Speaker 4: file a new appeal on their case.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, which gives you a sense of how plugged in

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Speaker 1: these kids are to the reality of what's happened to

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Speaker 1: the wrong person. Okay, God, but I found this also fascinating.

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Speaker 1: There was an LA Times piece recently and they reached

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Speaker 1: out to Leslie Abramson just to get her take on

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Speaker 1: what's happening. Oh okay, and she said she doesn't discuss

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Speaker 1: the case anymore. And then there's this quote from her,

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Speaker 1: I am still harassed by TV producers, high school kids

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Speaker 1: and nutcases who promise to get my clients out of prison.

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Speaker 1: Oh she said it an email. I have nothing else

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Speaker 1: to say to you. But I was like high school kids, Like,

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Speaker 1: imagine how many of these TikTokers must be reaching out

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Speaker 1: to Leslie Abramson.

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Speaker 7: Wow.

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Speaker 1: And you know, Leslie Abramson I think is in her

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Speaker 1: eighties now, Like she's probably like, who are these kids?

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Speaker 7: Wow?

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Speaker 1: She's like get going, literally, get all of my law,

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Speaker 1: and she probably has no way of understanding what the

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Speaker 1: fuck they're talking about. She doesn't know what stan accounts are,

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Speaker 1: So yes, it's just I do think it's kind of

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Speaker 1: a hilarious twist that she's sort of been dragged into

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Speaker 1: this and is suddenly being contacted by children all around

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Speaker 1: the world. But it's not just kids. Rosie O'Donnell the

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Speaker 1: actress and former talk show host. She is a big

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Speaker 1: defender of the Menanda's brothers. She recently interviewed Lyle from

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Speaker 1: prison for her podcast It's a Very Special Episode.

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Speaker 8: I talked for the full hour to Lyele Menendez, who

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Speaker 8: has been in prison for thirty four years for the

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Speaker 8: killing of both of his parents after a lifetime of

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Speaker 8: child abuse and incest.

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Speaker 1: And she did an interview with cour TV, and she

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Speaker 1: said that she felt like the brothers didn't deserve to

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Speaker 1: still be in jail, and that she grew up in

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Speaker 1: a family with an abuse dynamic and that she believed

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Speaker 1: that they had been abused and really believed that their

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Speaker 1: lives were in danger.

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Speaker 4: Okay, so for people who don't remember, remind us what

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Speaker 4: was the situation with the brothers and their trials and

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Speaker 4: how long have they been in prison.

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Speaker 1: They've been in prison for thirty four years, and there

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Speaker 1: are just a lot of wild twists and turns to

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Speaker 1: the story. I actually do think it's fascinating. I understand

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Speaker 1: why it captured the imagination of the country then and

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Speaker 1: why it's capturing the imagination of all these kids now.

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Speaker 1: In a lot of ways, felt like a story made

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Speaker 1: for the tabloids. Right he was in LA there was

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Speaker 1: immediate interest in it. It felt like a TV movie

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Speaker 1: from the start. So here are the particulars of the crime.

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Speaker 1: Two brothers, Lyle and Eric Mendez. They were twenty one

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Speaker 1: and eighteen at the time of the murders, whose parents,

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Speaker 1: Jose and Kitty Menendez, were brutally murdered in the family

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Speaker 1: home in August of nineteen eighty nine. And initially this

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Speaker 1: seemed just like a random crime. The boys called it

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Speaker 1: in to nine one one. The father, Jose, who was

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Speaker 1: this very successful, wealthy and powerful Hollywood executive who had

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Speaker 1: sort of lived the American dream. He had immigrated to

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Speaker 1: America from Cuba with very little money and he'd made

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Speaker 1: all his own money. There was some set that maybe

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Speaker 1: this was a mob hit or somehow related to his business.

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Speaker 1: Because he was this big wig executive.

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Speaker 8: It's not supposed to happen in Beverly Hills. A movie

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Speaker 8: executive and his wife were brutally slain and their million

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Speaker 8: dollar mansion.

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Speaker 1: There were no clues and no suspects. The crime initially

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Speaker 1: was treated as just a random crime that had happened

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Speaker 1: to this family, and the family had always projected this

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Speaker 1: really all American family dynamic, right, successful dad, pretty blonde mom.

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Speaker 1: The two sons were very handsome. Lyle was at Princeton,

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Speaker 1: Eric had been accepted at UCLA. So they seemed like

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Speaker 1: classic Beverly Hills kids and Beverly Hills nine oh two

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Speaker 1: and oh. The show actually debuted in October of nineteen ninety,

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Speaker 1: so the year okay, the year after, Yeah, so that

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Speaker 1: image would have been very much in the zeitgeist. So

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Speaker 1: initially there was a lot of sympathy for the boys. Right,

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Speaker 1: they were victims. I'll called nine one one after they

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Speaker 1: quotes found their parents.

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Speaker 4: Waits was the story that they had come home and

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Speaker 4: found the parents dead.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean I assume that that's kind of the

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Speaker 1: story they told. Right. The story was they came home,

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Speaker 1: they found their parents dead, got it? But the story

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Speaker 1: really blows up because the brothers do end up turning

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Speaker 1: themselves in in March of nineteen ninety okay, and admitting

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Speaker 1: to the murder. So there really isn't a doubt. They

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Speaker 1: have admitted for almost thirty four years that they murdered

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Speaker 1: their parents, but it wasn't really clear why. And the

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Speaker 1: reason they even got caught is because Eric was seeing

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Speaker 1: a therapist, Eric who is the younger brother, and he

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Speaker 1: confessed to the therapist, and in a really weird twist,

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Speaker 1: the therapist mistress got mad at him about something. The

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Speaker 1: therapist mistress, Yes, the therapist mistress got mad a therapist

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Speaker 1: about something and in a rage, told the police that

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Speaker 1: the therapist had told her that he had this tape

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Speaker 1: recording a session wither he confessed to the murder. So

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Speaker 1: it was this very convoluted way that they got caught.

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Speaker 3: I mean, you can see why.

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Speaker 4: This is like the perfect made for TV. So there's

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Speaker 4: even a mistress involved.

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Speaker 1: And the police almost immediately started making statements about how

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Speaker 1: savage these murders were. These were really bloody murders. The

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Speaker 1: crime scene was incredibly bloody. Jose the father was shot

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Speaker 1: six times and the mother Kitty was shot ten times.

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Speaker 1: Oh wow, So it was I think what they referred

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Speaker 1: to as overkill. The brutality of the murders is commented

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Speaker 1: on a lot in the media. It's part of what

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Speaker 1: really sways public opinion away from the boys. And then

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Speaker 1: there are really two other things that get a lot

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Speaker 1: of attention. The first is that after the murderers, the

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Speaker 1: boys seem to have gone on what is described in

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Speaker 1: the press as a spending spree.

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Speaker 7: They didn't do a very good job of acting their

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Speaker 7: roles of grieving sun police say the boys went on

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Speaker 7: a wild spending spree, and unlike the relatives of most

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Speaker 7: murdered vities, the Menandoz boys did not seem to take

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Speaker 7: much interest in the police search for their parents' murderers.

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Speaker 1: So this sort of supports the idea that they're motivated

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Speaker 1: by greed and just wanted access to their father's money.

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Speaker 7: Right, Why did you need to buy a Rolex watch

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Speaker 7: four days after your parents were killed?

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Speaker 9: I didn't need to.

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Speaker 1: You wanted to. Lyle bought a Porsche and a Rolex

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Speaker 1: and randomly a hot Wings restaurant in Princeton, New Jersey,

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Speaker 1: which I don't even know. That's a strange investment. They

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Speaker 1: moved out of the house, which I guess is not

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Speaker 1: weird since there had been these brutal murders there, But

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Speaker 1: they moved into adjoining condos, which I think people found odd.

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Speaker 1: Eric hired a full time tennis coach and went on

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Speaker 1: the tennis circuit. But playing in the tennis like semi

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Speaker 1: professional tendants are.

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Speaker 4: Good even if they hadn't murdered them. Strange way to

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Speaker 4: behave if your parents have just been murdered and you

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Speaker 4: don't want to look suspicious.

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Speaker 1: So that's the interesting thing. I read that some of

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Speaker 1: their family after all this came out, said, actually, these

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Speaker 1: were just their spending habits, like this is just how

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Speaker 1: they spent money. Oh, this was normal, and that this

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Speaker 1: may have seemed odd if you were grieving, but they

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Speaker 1: just spent money like crazy, and so they may just

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Speaker 1: have not understood that they needed to shift their behavior.

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Speaker 4: That's so like to the rest of America. When it's

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Speaker 4: now being reported in the press, it's insane because I

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Speaker 4: think this family, but if you live in that bubble

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Speaker 4: in Beverly Hills, maybe you do right.

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Speaker 1: But in the press, this spending spree is treated as

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Speaker 1: a clear sign that they're just absolutely entitled greedy brats

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Speaker 1: who were after the money. And that's really the second

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Speaker 1: thing I think that really sways public opinion against them.

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Speaker 1: They have this very clear motive. The motive is money.

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Speaker 1: That their father's estate is worth fourteen million dollars. The

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Speaker 1: two brothers are the sole beneficiaries of that fourteen million dollars, okay,

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Speaker 1: And one of the things that circulated was that maybe

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Speaker 1: he had been planning to withdraw them from his will

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Speaker 1: or he was planning on cutting them off. So the

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Speaker 1: motive was they wanted access to the money and they

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Speaker 1: wanted to secure that access forever. The other thing that

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Speaker 1: police revealed during this time is that they had become

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Speaker 1: suspicious of the brothers fairly early on. You know, at

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Speaker 1: the crime scene, they weren't suspicious of them. They didn't

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Speaker 1: actually test to see if they had fired guns recently,

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Speaker 1: which is very common if you're a suspect in a crime.

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Speaker 1: That really would have made a big difference, I think

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Speaker 1: in this case, but they weren't tested for that. They

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Speaker 1: really were initially treated like grieving suns, but the police

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Speaker 1: felt that they weren't really acting like grieving suns.

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Speaker 4: It's so interesting because hearing it now, You're like, Okay,

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Speaker 4: if this wasn't an uber, wealthy Beverly Hills family, isn't

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Speaker 4: the person who finds about it always the first suspect?

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Speaker 2: Yeah?

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Speaker 1: I mean, honestly, everything I know about this I know

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Speaker 1: from law and order, So I have no idea what

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Speaker 1: it's like.

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Speaker 3: Standard protocol in this case.

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Speaker 1: But I assume that usually you would be a suspect

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Speaker 1: if both your parents were murdered and you happened upon

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Speaker 1: them in your home. But I think in general, this

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Speaker 1: case was so out of the ordinary. Murders like this

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Speaker 1: just did not happen in Beverly Hills, So I think

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Speaker 1: in general the police were caught a little flat footed

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Speaker 1: at the top. And what eventually happens here though, and

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Speaker 1: this is really the crux of what these new fans

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Speaker 1: are really focused on, is that the brothers attorneys come

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Speaker 1: forward and say that their clients actually acted in self defense.

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Speaker 1: They killed their parents because they had been suffering from

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Speaker 1: years of emotional and sexual abuse, that the father had

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Speaker 1: been sexually abusing these boys for the majority of their lives.

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Speaker 1: And at the point that that story starts to be

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Speaker 1: put forward by the boys attorneys, there has been three

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Speaker 1: years where the majority of the public perception has been

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Speaker 1: shaped by the prosecution side of the story. Yeah, and

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Speaker 1: so no one really believed that they were victims themselves,

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Speaker 1: and in fact, the prosecutors said this was just an

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Speaker 1: attempt to assassinate the characters of the real victims, which

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Speaker 1: were their parents. So going into the trial, I think

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Speaker 1: it was safe to say that most people thought that

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Speaker 1: this was an open and shycase and that the brothers

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Speaker 1: were just going to go to jail. And one other

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Speaker 1: sort of interesting thing about this is that this was

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Speaker 1: considered a landmark case because this was the first time

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Speaker 1: that lawyers were going to use the same defense used

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Speaker 1: in domestic violence cases, which is that the homicide was

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Speaker 1: in self defense and they feared for their lives. But

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Speaker 1: it's what's referred to as imperfect self defense because you're

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Speaker 1: not literally with a knife to your throat, but you

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Speaker 1: feel that your life is in danger. And this hadn't

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Speaker 1: been tested before outside of domestic violence, so in that sense,

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Speaker 1: it was like a.

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Speaker 4: Really interesting So it hadn't been used in a child

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Speaker 4: abuse case before.

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Speaker 1: No, and in the nineties, this was just considered a

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Speaker 1: shocking defense. Right. Conversations like this around sexual abuse certainly

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Speaker 1: about sexual abuse between a father and his sons just

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Speaker 1: did not happen in the open. And so when this

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Speaker 1: trial began in nineteen ninety three, it was just a

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Speaker 1: huge case. There was an intense amount of attention. It

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Speaker 1: was broadcast in its entirety, as I said, gavel to

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Speaker 1: gabble as they called it on court TV. And in

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Speaker 1: the opening statements, the lawyers for the Menanda's brothers really

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Speaker 1: get into the sexual abuse.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I was going to ask you what evidence did

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Speaker 4: they provide for the sexual abuse.

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Speaker 1: There actually was a lot of contemporary US evidence, which

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Speaker 1: obviously you and I now understand is one of the

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Speaker 1: ways that you corroborate sexual abuse. But I think this

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Speaker 1: wasn't like a very well understood field, And as you

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Speaker 1: and I have talked about, there is sort of the

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Speaker 1: sense of how victims are supposed to behave, and so

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Speaker 1: there was a lot of questions around this. But the

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Speaker 1: defense really paints this house as a house of horrors,

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Speaker 1: and there were many witnesses to it, like friends, families,

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Speaker 1: colleagues came forward and supported the brothers version of events.

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Speaker 1: The picture of Jose Menendez was essentially one of a

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Speaker 1: terrifying monster and Kitty as an alcoholic with a drug

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Speaker 1: abuse problem who was also emotionally abusive to the boys

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Speaker 1: and knew about the sexual abuse and did nothing about it.

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Speaker 4: And were they painting the father as physically and sexually abusive?

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Speaker 3: What had the people.

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Speaker 1: Witnessed, Yes, bruises, marx, etc. Okay, so they had not

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Speaker 1: witnessed the sexual abuse, but the boys had told some

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Speaker 1: of their cousins about the sexual abuse contemporaneously, So there

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Speaker 1: was a sense that this had gone on for years.

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Speaker 1: And you know, you would expect that if two people

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Speaker 1: were brutally murdered, their family would want to support them.

439
00:23:28,119 --> 00:23:30,320
Speaker 1: But for the most part, family came out in support

440
00:23:30,359 --> 00:23:33,400
Speaker 1: of the brothers because they really had seen that they

441
00:23:33,400 --> 00:23:34,639
Speaker 1: were treated pretty badly.

442
00:23:35,040 --> 00:23:37,879
Speaker 4: Had they also confessed the abuse to the therapist?

443
00:23:38,200 --> 00:23:40,400
Speaker 1: No, So that's I think one of the things that's interesting.

444
00:23:40,800 --> 00:23:43,240
Speaker 1: It seems that they had not confessed the abuse to

445
00:23:43,280 --> 00:23:44,879
Speaker 1: the therapist, and that was one of the things that

446
00:23:45,000 --> 00:23:48,000
Speaker 1: was used against them in the trial. But I think

447
00:23:48,040 --> 00:23:51,240
Speaker 1: that that's one thing that is part of that imperfect

448
00:23:51,440 --> 00:23:54,320
Speaker 1: victim trope that we talk about. I think for boys,

449
00:23:54,440 --> 00:23:59,800
Speaker 1: especially young men, talking about your father pretty brutally raping you,

450
00:23:59,840 --> 00:24:02,320
Speaker 1: the scenes that they end up describing. They both take

451
00:24:02,359 --> 00:24:05,240
Speaker 1: the stand. They both describe these scenes.

452
00:24:05,240 --> 00:24:07,359
Speaker 9: That started out with him coming in my bedroom and

453
00:24:07,400 --> 00:24:09,000
Speaker 9: telling me to get on my knees. I was on

454
00:24:09,040 --> 00:24:09,600
Speaker 9: the bed at the.

455
00:24:09,560 --> 00:24:12,080
Speaker 1: Time, and that was fairly common, wasn't it. Yes?

456
00:24:12,520 --> 00:24:14,439
Speaker 4: What did he tell you about telling people?

457
00:24:19,640 --> 00:24:24,760
Speaker 6: He just said that it was our secret. The bad

458
00:24:24,840 --> 00:24:32,320
Speaker 6: thing is what happened to me if I told anybody?

459
00:24:33,840 --> 00:24:35,040
Speaker 6: And I told him I never would.

460
00:24:36,480 --> 00:24:38,880
Speaker 1: And when he came back with the knife, what did

461
00:24:38,920 --> 00:24:39,520
Speaker 1: he do with it?

462
00:24:39,600 --> 00:24:42,160
Speaker 9: If anything, he put it on my neck. He put

463
00:24:42,160 --> 00:24:44,000
Speaker 9: his hand on my head and put the knife on

464
00:24:44,040 --> 00:24:44,440
Speaker 9: my neck.

465
00:24:45,480 --> 00:24:46,520
Speaker 1: Did he threaten you with it?

466
00:24:46,840 --> 00:24:47,159
Speaker 9: Yes?

467
00:24:47,200 --> 00:24:47,880
Speaker 1: What did he say?

468
00:24:48,359 --> 00:24:50,800
Speaker 9: He said I should kill you and next time I will.

469
00:24:51,240 --> 00:24:52,480
Speaker 1: And did you believe him?

470
00:24:52,760 --> 00:24:53,080
Speaker 9: Yes?

471
00:24:54,160 --> 00:24:59,560
Speaker 1: Really really disturbing details, like one of the brothers talked

472
00:24:59,600 --> 00:25:03,520
Speaker 1: about how he ate just an enormous amount of ketchup

473
00:25:03,800 --> 00:25:07,960
Speaker 1: and always needed lemons nearby. Was it at some point

474
00:25:08,040 --> 00:25:11,600
Speaker 1: after you were eleven years old that you developed a

475
00:25:11,680 --> 00:25:13,479
Speaker 1: rather peculiar eating habit.

476
00:25:15,400 --> 00:25:18,480
Speaker 9: Yes, I used a lot of lemon in my food.

477
00:25:19,000 --> 00:25:20,679
Speaker 1: And what do you mean by you? And no one

478
00:25:20,720 --> 00:25:22,840
Speaker 1: in the family understood why. It was a weird kind

479
00:25:22,840 --> 00:25:27,000
Speaker 1: of like obsession with lemons, and he testified during the

480
00:25:27,040 --> 00:25:29,040
Speaker 1: trial that it was because that's what he used to

481
00:25:29,040 --> 00:25:31,600
Speaker 1: get the taste of his father semen out of his mouth.

482
00:25:32,920 --> 00:25:35,000
Speaker 4: WHOA, that is a fascinating detail.

483
00:25:35,040 --> 00:25:38,080
Speaker 1: It's a fascinating detail, but it's so upsetting. The details

484
00:25:38,160 --> 00:25:41,879
Speaker 1: are really specific, and I think also hard to imagine

485
00:25:41,880 --> 00:25:45,600
Speaker 1: that these details are lies, because what kind of lie

486
00:25:45,680 --> 00:25:47,600
Speaker 1: is that? That's not a lie you make up? Right,

487
00:25:47,640 --> 00:25:50,760
Speaker 1: it's so very specific the thing. But the media is

488
00:25:51,359 --> 00:25:54,640
Speaker 1: not buying it. They are really skeptical of the defense,

489
00:25:55,200 --> 00:25:58,520
Speaker 1: and from what I can tell, almost the majority of

490
00:25:58,680 --> 00:26:02,520
Speaker 1: the media coverage at the time is incredibly pro prosecution.

491
00:26:03,280 --> 00:26:06,159
Speaker 1: A lot of talk of this defense refers to it

492
00:26:06,200 --> 00:26:10,400
Speaker 1: as the abuse defense or the abuse excuse, and they

493
00:26:10,520 --> 00:26:12,679
Speaker 1: just are like, this is a lie, and even if

494
00:26:12,720 --> 00:26:16,280
Speaker 1: it's true, it isn't an excuse for murder, which you know,

495
00:26:16,520 --> 00:26:19,800
Speaker 1: the lawyers for the brothers weren't arguing that it was

496
00:26:19,840 --> 00:26:22,440
Speaker 1: an excuse for murder. They were saying that it meant

497
00:26:22,520 --> 00:26:26,639
Speaker 1: that the murders were actually manslaughter. Right, the way that

498
00:26:26,800 --> 00:26:30,399
Speaker 1: they should consider this crime was as a manslaughter crime

499
00:26:30,520 --> 00:26:34,680
Speaker 1: rather than a murder crime. Because of the corroborating evidence

500
00:26:34,720 --> 00:26:38,240
Speaker 1: of this abuse. Yeah, and by the time the boys testify,

501
00:26:38,359 --> 00:26:41,800
Speaker 1: it's already a huge, huge circus. And then I think

502
00:26:41,840 --> 00:26:45,359
Speaker 1: this really dramatic and emotional testimony from the brothers. These

503
00:26:45,440 --> 00:26:48,960
Speaker 1: intense descriptions of abuse are just not something most people

504
00:26:49,119 --> 00:26:52,480
Speaker 1: have ever heard in their lives. This is the early nineties.

505
00:26:52,480 --> 00:26:53,920
Speaker 1: These aren't things that people talk about.

506
00:26:54,080 --> 00:26:55,840
Speaker 4: And so to be clear that their testimony is being

507
00:26:55,840 --> 00:26:57,400
Speaker 4: aired live, right, Yes.

508
00:26:57,280 --> 00:27:01,439
Speaker 1: This like incredibly dramatic testimony is ying aired live. Lyle

509
00:27:01,520 --> 00:27:04,880
Speaker 1: testifies that his father has been sexually abusing him since

510
00:27:04,920 --> 00:27:07,119
Speaker 1: he was six years old, but that at some point

511
00:27:07,160 --> 00:27:07,760
Speaker 1: he stopped.

512
00:27:08,480 --> 00:27:10,760
Speaker 7: How old were you when this stopped?

513
00:27:13,560 --> 00:27:17,159
Speaker 9: Eight? When you were about thirteen?

514
00:27:19,119 --> 00:27:21,480
Speaker 5: Did you think that it might be happening to someone else?

515
00:27:23,600 --> 00:27:27,800
Speaker 9: Yes, sir? And who did you think it was happening to? Eric?

516
00:27:29,280 --> 00:27:32,639
Speaker 1: And then Eric is crying while he watches Lyle his

517
00:27:32,720 --> 00:27:36,840
Speaker 1: older brother testify, And then Eric testifies, and he says

518
00:27:37,080 --> 00:27:38,800
Speaker 1: that the abuse never stopped for him.

519
00:27:39,080 --> 00:27:41,119
Speaker 10: I told him that things between dad and I were

520
00:27:41,160 --> 00:27:47,159
Speaker 10: still happening and that, and he kept asking what I

521
00:27:47,240 --> 00:27:49,280
Speaker 10: was talking about. Did you tell him what you were

522
00:27:49,320 --> 00:27:51,640
Speaker 10: telling Finally I told him I told him they were

523
00:27:51,680 --> 00:27:53,680
Speaker 10: just sexual things, sexual things.

524
00:27:53,880 --> 00:27:58,520
Speaker 7: Yes, And did you tell him anything about any kind

525
00:27:58,560 --> 00:28:01,919
Speaker 7: of violence that would accompany it, or any kind of

526
00:28:02,119 --> 00:28:03,320
Speaker 7: threats from your father?

527
00:28:03,800 --> 00:28:04,080
Speaker 9: Yes?

528
00:28:04,520 --> 00:28:06,920
Speaker 1: And what did you tell him about violence?

529
00:28:08,000 --> 00:28:11,439
Speaker 9: I told him that there were pens and texts that

530
00:28:11,520 --> 00:28:15,160
Speaker 9: Dad would die, that Dad.

531
00:28:14,960 --> 00:28:17,520
Speaker 1: Was sick in me and use, and so he had

532
00:28:17,520 --> 00:28:20,919
Speaker 1: basically been suffering in silence all this time because his

533
00:28:21,000 --> 00:28:24,200
Speaker 1: father had been threatening him that if he ever told Lyle,

534
00:28:24,200 --> 00:28:27,680
Speaker 1: he would murder them both. And that is what Eric

535
00:28:27,720 --> 00:28:30,760
Speaker 1: and Lyle say actually precipitated the murders. That they began

536
00:28:30,920 --> 00:28:33,359
Speaker 1: to realize that this was never going to end, that

537
00:28:33,400 --> 00:28:35,720
Speaker 1: they were terrified of their father. They thought he was

538
00:28:35,760 --> 00:28:38,680
Speaker 1: going to kill them, and Eric was really terrified that

539
00:28:38,760 --> 00:28:41,400
Speaker 1: now he told Lyle that they were in danger. And

540
00:28:41,480 --> 00:28:44,840
Speaker 1: so they say that they confronted their parents and that

541
00:28:44,840 --> 00:28:47,440
Speaker 1: that is when they learned that their mother had known

542
00:28:47,480 --> 00:28:50,440
Speaker 1: all along. They had thought that they were protecting her

543
00:28:50,680 --> 00:28:55,200
Speaker 1: from this information, but that in one of these confrontations

544
00:28:55,440 --> 00:28:59,000
Speaker 1: between the parents and the boys, it becomes clear that

545
00:28:59,080 --> 00:29:04,160
Speaker 1: she knew, and that in fact, the parents are not

546
00:29:04,880 --> 00:29:09,360
Speaker 1: really apologetic, and so again they feel that this really

547
00:29:09,400 --> 00:29:14,400
Speaker 1: proves that their lives are in danger, and it's really

548
00:29:14,480 --> 00:29:18,120
Speaker 1: hard to watch this testimony now, Like, I can't explain

549
00:29:18,160 --> 00:29:20,480
Speaker 1: to you how hard it is to watch with all

550
00:29:20,560 --> 00:29:24,000
Speaker 1: the distance that we have, and I really don't understand

551
00:29:24,000 --> 00:29:26,600
Speaker 1: how people couldn't have found it believable. I mean, if

552
00:29:26,680 --> 00:29:31,160
Speaker 1: these boys were lying, they were incredible acting. Yeah, to

553
00:29:31,240 --> 00:29:33,800
Speaker 1: think of like an eighteen and twenty one year old

554
00:29:33,840 --> 00:29:36,560
Speaker 1: boy probably by the time the trial happened, like early twenties,

555
00:29:37,000 --> 00:29:39,200
Speaker 1: you know, to think of these two boys getting up

556
00:29:39,360 --> 00:29:42,360
Speaker 1: in front of what they knew was a national televised

557
00:29:42,360 --> 00:29:45,880
Speaker 1: audience and talking about these issues in the way that

558
00:29:45,920 --> 00:29:49,160
Speaker 1: they did. Like it. It's really hard to watch it

559
00:29:49,200 --> 00:29:52,440
Speaker 1: and not have your heartbreak for them. I really have

560
00:29:52,520 --> 00:29:54,640
Speaker 1: trouble wrapping my head around the way it was viewed

561
00:29:54,680 --> 00:29:56,920
Speaker 1: at the time. But it just gives you a sense

562
00:29:57,040 --> 00:30:01,000
Speaker 1: of how poorly this kind of thing was understood.

563
00:30:01,120 --> 00:30:23,760
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, wow, So what happens next?

564
00:30:25,440 --> 00:30:27,640
Speaker 1: I want to mention a couple more things, just because

565
00:30:27,880 --> 00:30:31,600
Speaker 1: they end up being relevant. Later, one of the cousins

566
00:30:31,640 --> 00:30:34,280
Speaker 1: testified that when Lyle was eight, he told her about

567
00:30:34,320 --> 00:30:35,840
Speaker 1: the sexual abuse, so that would have been in nineteen

568
00:30:35,840 --> 00:30:39,120
Speaker 1: seventy six, and that she told Kitty. So there was

569
00:30:39,200 --> 00:30:42,560
Speaker 1: actual roborating evidence that the mother was aware, mother knew,

570
00:30:42,720 --> 00:30:45,320
Speaker 1: and there was another cousin that Eric confided in when

571
00:30:45,320 --> 00:30:48,680
Speaker 1: he was thirteen, so there were some people around them

572
00:30:48,720 --> 00:30:51,920
Speaker 1: that knew. And again, as I mentioned, the defense team

573
00:30:51,960 --> 00:30:54,320
Speaker 1: is really trying to go for a manslaughter charge, right.

574
00:30:54,360 --> 00:30:57,400
Speaker 1: They just want to make sure that the brothers aren't

575
00:30:57,400 --> 00:30:59,680
Speaker 1: put away for a murder charge, which not only means

576
00:30:59,720 --> 00:31:01,480
Speaker 1: they'll be in prison for life, but there was a

577
00:31:01,520 --> 00:31:04,280
Speaker 1: death penalty element to this case. Okay, So they're not

578
00:31:04,360 --> 00:31:07,360
Speaker 1: even suggesting that the brothers shouldn't be held accountable in

579
00:31:07,400 --> 00:31:09,959
Speaker 1: some way. They're just saying that this is not a

580
00:31:10,000 --> 00:31:14,440
Speaker 1: first degree murder. And jury deliberations went on for a month. Wow.

581
00:31:14,720 --> 00:31:17,640
Speaker 1: One thing to note here is that the way this

582
00:31:17,720 --> 00:31:20,800
Speaker 1: trial was structured was a little weird. There were two

583
00:31:20,840 --> 00:31:24,280
Speaker 1: separate juries, but it was one trial, so each brother

584
00:31:24,400 --> 00:31:27,480
Speaker 1: had his own jury. Oh but the trial was done

585
00:31:27,520 --> 00:31:30,880
Speaker 1: at the same time, okay. And what is really interesting

586
00:31:31,280 --> 00:31:34,840
Speaker 1: is that both jury's deadlock and there is a mistrial

587
00:31:34,920 --> 00:31:40,120
Speaker 1: for both brothers. And I saw this fascinating interview with

588
00:31:40,160 --> 00:31:43,160
Speaker 1: a female juror who said that on Eric's jury, at

589
00:31:43,240 --> 00:31:47,480
Speaker 1: least the deliberations broke down entirely on gender lines, that

590
00:31:47,560 --> 00:31:50,760
Speaker 1: the men really dug in that no man would ever

591
00:31:50,960 --> 00:31:53,880
Speaker 1: do to his son what these boys were saying Jose

592
00:31:54,000 --> 00:31:57,240
Speaker 1: Menendez did to them, really, and they wanted to convince.

593
00:31:56,880 --> 00:31:58,640
Speaker 4: The women were like yeah, obviously, yeah.

594
00:31:58,480 --> 00:32:01,160
Speaker 1: And the women believed them because women know that there

595
00:32:01,240 --> 00:32:02,360
Speaker 1: is a lot of abuse.

596
00:32:02,400 --> 00:32:03,000
Speaker 3: In the world.

597
00:32:06,600 --> 00:32:08,800
Speaker 4: Okay, So mistrial means what exactly?

598
00:32:08,960 --> 00:32:11,920
Speaker 1: So mistrial means that they can be tried again. Often

599
00:32:12,040 --> 00:32:14,440
Speaker 1: in cases like this, there's like a settlement at this

600
00:32:14,560 --> 00:32:18,000
Speaker 1: point because the government doesn't want to go through this

601
00:32:18,120 --> 00:32:21,760
Speaker 1: whole circus again. But that doesn't happen here for reasons

602
00:32:21,760 --> 00:32:24,920
Speaker 1: that aren't clear. What does happen is that the second

603
00:32:24,960 --> 00:32:28,400
Speaker 1: trial takes place two years later. And it's worth noting

604
00:32:28,440 --> 00:32:31,880
Speaker 1: that between the two trials there is the OJ Simpson trial,

605
00:32:32,000 --> 00:32:36,600
Speaker 1: which is another huge media circus in LA happening at

606
00:32:36,600 --> 00:32:40,680
Speaker 1: the same time, essentially, and the prosecutors also lose that case.

607
00:32:41,040 --> 00:32:44,480
Speaker 1: So the judicial system in LA is reeling, and so

608
00:32:44,800 --> 00:32:47,760
Speaker 1: by the time the boys get back into court for

609
00:32:47,800 --> 00:32:51,320
Speaker 1: the second trial, there is only one jury, no cameras

610
00:32:51,320 --> 00:32:55,680
Speaker 1: are allowed, and the new prosecutors ask the judge to

611
00:32:55,840 --> 00:32:58,200
Speaker 1: limit the amount of testimony.

612
00:32:57,760 --> 00:32:59,000
Speaker 4: Regarding from the boys.

613
00:32:59,080 --> 00:33:02,520
Speaker 1: Okay, they say the abuse is not relevant and it

614
00:33:02,920 --> 00:33:06,800
Speaker 1: didn't happen, and the judge essentially agrees, and there's no

615
00:33:07,080 --> 00:33:11,680
Speaker 1: clear indication of why he made that choice, but it

616
00:33:11,920 --> 00:33:17,000
Speaker 1: significantly changed the trial. The prosecutors had a real advantage.

617
00:33:17,040 --> 00:33:19,200
Speaker 1: They went in knowing what the defense strategy would be,

618
00:33:19,280 --> 00:33:21,800
Speaker 1: whereas they didn't really know the extent of the abuse

619
00:33:21,840 --> 00:33:25,200
Speaker 1: going into the first trial, and they really focus on

620
00:33:25,240 --> 00:33:28,960
Speaker 1: the fact that this was a well planned and executed murder,

621
00:33:29,000 --> 00:33:31,040
Speaker 1: which I don't know how well planned it was, but

622
00:33:31,040 --> 00:33:32,720
Speaker 1: it is true that they bought guns a couple of

623
00:33:32,800 --> 00:33:34,920
Speaker 1: days beforehand. You know, there were things that they did,

624
00:33:35,680 --> 00:33:39,680
Speaker 1: and the judge just kept ruling against the defense on everything.

625
00:33:40,000 --> 00:33:42,880
Speaker 1: He took manslaughter off the table, which left only first

626
00:33:43,000 --> 00:33:46,120
Speaker 1: or second degree murder. Leslie Abramson, who was Eric's lawyer

627
00:33:46,160 --> 00:33:49,640
Speaker 1: who I mentioned, described the second trial as hell. To

628
00:33:49,680 --> 00:33:53,280
Speaker 1: give you an idea, there were fifty plus defense witnesses

629
00:33:53,320 --> 00:33:56,080
Speaker 1: for the first trial and half of that for the second.

630
00:33:56,200 --> 00:34:00,520
Speaker 1: The family members weren't even allowed to testify. So are

631
00:34:00,560 --> 00:34:04,640
Speaker 1: convicted on first degree murder and luckily they don't get

632
00:34:04,640 --> 00:34:06,880
Speaker 1: the death penalty and they are sentenced to life in

633
00:34:06,920 --> 00:34:07,920
Speaker 1: prison without parole.

634
00:34:07,960 --> 00:34:08,200
Speaker 2: Wow.

635
00:34:08,400 --> 00:34:10,880
Speaker 1: And that is where they are today.

636
00:34:10,960 --> 00:34:11,680
Speaker 3: That's where it's at.

637
00:34:11,800 --> 00:34:14,960
Speaker 1: Okay, They've been in prison for thirty four years since

638
00:34:15,200 --> 00:34:18,839
Speaker 1: their convictions. Both brothers have been married, even though California

639
00:34:18,960 --> 00:34:23,080
Speaker 1: doesn't allow conjugal visits for inmates with life sentences. One

640
00:34:23,080 --> 00:34:25,720
Speaker 1: of them has been married more than once, I believe,

641
00:34:26,400 --> 00:34:29,359
Speaker 1: And you know, they have just made the best of

642
00:34:29,400 --> 00:34:33,360
Speaker 1: their lives in prison. They do a lot of mentoring

643
00:34:33,480 --> 00:34:36,320
Speaker 1: and peer work in prison. One of them helped design

644
00:34:36,360 --> 00:34:37,160
Speaker 1: this big mural.

645
00:34:37,440 --> 00:34:39,680
Speaker 4: Have there been like profiles of them from prison over

646
00:34:39,680 --> 00:34:40,320
Speaker 4: the years.

647
00:34:40,360 --> 00:34:43,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, there have been some profiles, and Lyle does interviews.

648
00:34:43,239 --> 00:34:47,200
Speaker 1: Eric is more media shy. I think Eric's wife has

649
00:34:47,239 --> 00:34:51,040
Speaker 1: done some press initially when they first got married. But

650
00:34:51,400 --> 00:34:54,520
Speaker 1: this new interest I think has probably taken even them

651
00:34:54,560 --> 00:34:56,400
Speaker 1: by surprise. There were a lot of years where they

652
00:34:56,440 --> 00:34:58,600
Speaker 1: were just sort of making the best of their lives

653
00:34:58,680 --> 00:35:01,760
Speaker 1: in prison. And it's worth noting that one of them

654
00:35:02,000 --> 00:35:06,760
Speaker 1: said to a family member at one point, honestly, life

655
00:35:06,800 --> 00:35:11,160
Speaker 1: in prison is better than the life I had growing

656
00:35:11,280 --> 00:35:14,120
Speaker 1: up in that house, which really gives you a sense

657
00:35:14,120 --> 00:35:17,640
Speaker 1: of how scared they were as children in that house.

658
00:35:17,680 --> 00:35:19,800
Speaker 1: It really does sound like growing up in their house

659
00:35:20,080 --> 00:35:22,279
Speaker 1: was a brutal way to live.

660
00:35:22,600 --> 00:35:26,880
Speaker 4: Okay, so are we with the stands here, like I mean,

661
00:35:26,920 --> 00:35:28,760
Speaker 4: maybe not like the romantic stands.

662
00:35:28,840 --> 00:35:31,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, definitely not the romantic stands.

663
00:35:31,120 --> 00:35:34,320
Speaker 4: But hearing you tell this in the light of twenty

664
00:35:34,360 --> 00:35:38,280
Speaker 4: twenty four makes it sound like the TikTokers are actually

665
00:35:38,360 --> 00:35:39,040
Speaker 4: onto something.

666
00:35:39,200 --> 00:35:40,799
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think they have a point. I have to

667
00:35:40,800 --> 00:35:43,680
Speaker 1: be honest. Really digging into this case made me wonder

668
00:35:44,160 --> 00:35:47,320
Speaker 1: how it was possible that this was done in the

669
00:35:47,360 --> 00:35:50,239
Speaker 1: way that it was. The fact is, we just understand

670
00:35:50,280 --> 00:35:53,600
Speaker 1: so much more about the psychology of abuse and of victims,

671
00:35:53,719 --> 00:35:56,319
Speaker 1: and you can sort of understand that if you grew

672
00:35:56,400 --> 00:35:58,520
Speaker 1: up in a house where you were sexually abused from

673
00:35:58,600 --> 00:36:02,120
Speaker 1: six years old and physics abused and emotionally abused, the

674
00:36:02,160 --> 00:36:04,480
Speaker 1: fact that you would be so terrified of your parents

675
00:36:04,480 --> 00:36:06,279
Speaker 1: that you didn't feel like you could just like get

676
00:36:06,360 --> 00:36:09,520
Speaker 1: up and walk away. This idea that you could just leave,

677
00:36:09,640 --> 00:36:11,800
Speaker 1: and why didn't they just do that they were adults,

678
00:36:12,120 --> 00:36:16,600
Speaker 1: That is something we understand is not so simple, And

679
00:36:17,040 --> 00:36:19,480
Speaker 1: just like battered wife syndrome, we now have the concept

680
00:36:19,520 --> 00:36:20,880
Speaker 1: of a battered child syndrome.

681
00:36:21,239 --> 00:36:23,760
Speaker 4: It reminds me a little almost of the Gypsy Rose

682
00:36:23,840 --> 00:36:27,160
Speaker 4: case as well. Yes, and which TikTok is also obsessed

683
00:36:27,160 --> 00:36:27,560
Speaker 4: with right.

684
00:36:27,640 --> 00:36:28,560
Speaker 3: Yeah, but where.

685
00:36:28,480 --> 00:36:30,719
Speaker 4: Yeah, years and years and years of abuse she then

686
00:36:31,080 --> 00:36:33,200
Speaker 4: has her boyfriend murder hermel anyway.

687
00:36:33,000 --> 00:36:35,279
Speaker 1: Yes, very similar I think in some ways to that

688
00:36:35,400 --> 00:36:37,840
Speaker 1: case where people said the same thing. That was a

689
00:36:37,880 --> 00:36:40,040
Speaker 1: case where it was munchilds and biproxy. So the mother

690
00:36:40,080 --> 00:36:42,400
Speaker 1: pretended she was sick and it turned out she was

691
00:36:42,440 --> 00:36:44,400
Speaker 1: in a wheelchair but she could walk, and people were like, well,

692
00:36:44,440 --> 00:36:46,680
Speaker 1: why didn't she just walk away? Which is just really

693
00:36:46,719 --> 00:36:47,799
Speaker 1: overly simplistic.

694
00:36:47,920 --> 00:36:48,040
Speaker 4: Right.

695
00:36:48,480 --> 00:36:51,799
Speaker 1: We develop a relationship with your parent when you're so

696
00:36:52,080 --> 00:36:55,840
Speaker 1: young and dependent that if that relationship is rooted in

697
00:36:55,880 --> 00:36:59,360
Speaker 1: this kind of intense sphere, you don't feel like you

698
00:36:59,400 --> 00:37:01,000
Speaker 1: can just walk oh way. You think they're going to

699
00:37:01,080 --> 00:37:04,000
Speaker 1: find you and kill you. And honestly, who knows. Jose

700
00:37:04,120 --> 00:37:07,160
Speaker 1: Menenda's does not come off like a man that you

701
00:37:07,920 --> 00:37:10,799
Speaker 1: should not be scared of in every depiction of him

702
00:37:10,880 --> 00:37:12,080
Speaker 1: that comes out during the trial.

703
00:37:15,840 --> 00:37:20,279
Speaker 4: Okay, so what happens now? Have the fans been effective

704
00:37:20,480 --> 00:37:24,040
Speaker 4: in asking for further scrutiny to the case.

705
00:37:24,239 --> 00:37:27,360
Speaker 1: I mean, they've certainly been effective in drawing more attention

706
00:37:27,520 --> 00:37:30,960
Speaker 1: to the case. Yeah, but the appeals process had pretty

707
00:37:31,040 --> 00:37:34,719
Speaker 1: much played itself out. But recently there have been two

708
00:37:34,800 --> 00:37:37,719
Speaker 1: big developments that may actually change the fate of the

709
00:37:37,719 --> 00:37:42,000
Speaker 1: Menenda's brothers. The first one is a letter was discovered

710
00:37:42,239 --> 00:37:45,359
Speaker 1: written by Eric to one of the cousins that testified

711
00:37:45,880 --> 00:37:48,480
Speaker 1: on his behalf, and he had written him this letter

712
00:37:48,600 --> 00:37:51,840
Speaker 1: just eight months before the crime, in December of eighty eight, okay,

713
00:37:51,920 --> 00:37:54,640
Speaker 1: And this letter was found by one of their aunts,

714
00:37:55,000 --> 00:37:58,120
Speaker 1: that cousin's mother after the cousin died. So you know,

715
00:37:58,200 --> 00:37:59,759
Speaker 1: they've been in prison a long time. One of their

716
00:37:59,760 --> 00:38:02,759
Speaker 1: cousin passed away and the mother was going through his

717
00:38:02,760 --> 00:38:05,920
Speaker 1: papers and she finds this letter. And presumably it's a

718
00:38:06,000 --> 00:38:08,680
Speaker 1: letter that both Eric and the cousin forgot about because

719
00:38:08,719 --> 00:38:12,640
Speaker 1: it wasn't about the abuse. But in it, Eric very

720
00:38:12,680 --> 00:38:15,400
Speaker 1: clearly references the abuse. Wow. At one point he writes,

721
00:38:15,440 --> 00:38:18,360
Speaker 1: I've been trying to avoid Dad, but it's still happening. Andy.

722
00:38:18,719 --> 00:38:21,759
Speaker 1: It's worse for me now. And then there's another part

723
00:38:21,800 --> 00:38:23,920
Speaker 1: where he says, every night I stay up thinking that

724
00:38:24,000 --> 00:38:27,720
Speaker 1: he might come in. I'm afraid he's crazy. He's warned

725
00:38:27,719 --> 00:38:31,040
Speaker 1: me a hundred times about telling anyone, especially Lyle.

726
00:38:31,280 --> 00:38:31,440
Speaker 10: Oh.

727
00:38:31,480 --> 00:38:35,400
Speaker 1: Wow, this is a piece of very contemporaneous evidence that

728
00:38:35,520 --> 00:38:38,600
Speaker 1: happened so far before the murders that there's no way

729
00:38:38,680 --> 00:38:40,719
Speaker 1: that they're just like making it up to cover up

730
00:38:40,800 --> 00:38:44,799
Speaker 1: this crime. But there's a bigger twist even and this

731
00:38:44,880 --> 00:38:49,239
Speaker 1: one is wild. At one point, Jose Menendez, who as

732
00:38:49,239 --> 00:38:52,120
Speaker 1: I said, was a Hollywood executive, was a top executive

733
00:38:52,120 --> 00:38:56,920
Speaker 1: at RCAA Records, okay. And while he was there, RCAA

734
00:38:57,040 --> 00:38:59,880
Speaker 1: signed a very popular Puerto Rican boy band from the

735
00:39:00,080 --> 00:39:04,400
Speaker 1: eighties called Menudo Manudo. It's the band that gave the

736
00:39:04,680 --> 00:39:07,200
Speaker 1: Ricky Martin. Yes, yes, it was one of the biggest

737
00:39:07,200 --> 00:39:11,160
Speaker 1: boy bands of all time and RCA signed them for

738
00:39:11,200 --> 00:39:15,640
Speaker 1: thirty million dollars. And an interesting thing about Menudo is

739
00:39:15,960 --> 00:39:19,000
Speaker 1: that it is a band that had an age limit,

740
00:39:19,440 --> 00:39:23,440
Speaker 1: so once the boys hit sixteen, they actually swapped them

741
00:39:23,440 --> 00:39:26,160
Speaker 1: out so that the boy band stayed forever young.

742
00:39:26,280 --> 00:39:28,000
Speaker 3: Oh wow, whoa Okay.

743
00:39:28,160 --> 00:39:31,040
Speaker 1: So in April of twenty twenty three, so just last year,

744
00:39:31,600 --> 00:39:34,560
Speaker 1: there is a former member of the band named Roy Roussello,

745
00:39:35,600 --> 00:39:38,960
Speaker 1: and he comes forward and says that in the nineteen eighties,

746
00:39:39,200 --> 00:39:42,959
Speaker 1: when he was fourteen or fifteen, the band's manager sent

747
00:39:43,080 --> 00:39:46,760
Speaker 1: him to go see Jose Menendez, the father of Lyle

748
00:39:46,800 --> 00:39:50,400
Speaker 1: and Eric Menendez at the family home, and while he

749
00:39:50,520 --> 00:39:53,239
Speaker 1: was there, he was given a glass of wine which

750
00:39:53,280 --> 00:39:57,239
Speaker 1: he believes was spiked and Jose Menendez raped him. Oh wow.

751
00:39:57,280 --> 00:40:00,480
Speaker 1: And he says that there were also other occasions, at

752
00:40:00,560 --> 00:40:04,239
Speaker 1: least two other times where Jose Menendez sexually abused him.

753
00:40:04,600 --> 00:40:06,279
Speaker 3: Oh so this is new.

754
00:40:06,600 --> 00:40:09,920
Speaker 1: So this is totally new, and it corroborates the boys

755
00:40:10,280 --> 00:40:13,640
Speaker 1: descriptions of abuse. He came forward as part of a

756
00:40:13,680 --> 00:40:16,920
Speaker 1: docuseries that you can watch on Peacock called Menendez and

757
00:40:17,000 --> 00:40:21,400
Speaker 1: Menudo Boys Betrayed and it's actually a fascinating docuseries. I

758
00:40:21,440 --> 00:40:24,719
Speaker 1: recommend it. It's based on the reporting of two journalists.

759
00:40:24,760 --> 00:40:27,840
Speaker 1: One is named Robert Rand. He covered the case initially

760
00:40:27,880 --> 00:40:30,120
Speaker 1: and has become sort of an advocate for the boys

761
00:40:30,160 --> 00:40:34,480
Speaker 1: over the years. And the other is this woman Nary Inclan,

762
00:40:34,840 --> 00:40:37,960
Speaker 1: who Robert reaches out to when he realizes that there

763
00:40:38,040 --> 00:40:41,279
Speaker 1: is this sexual abuse component that he needs to do

764
00:40:41,360 --> 00:40:45,120
Speaker 1: some additional reporting. On the way Robert Rand thinks to

765
00:40:45,280 --> 00:40:48,040
Speaker 1: connect these two cases is that he's going through some

766
00:40:48,160 --> 00:40:52,800
Speaker 1: old notes and he remembers that Jose Menendez's assistant in

767
00:40:52,800 --> 00:40:58,760
Speaker 1: interviews with him often emphasized how obsessed with Minudo, Jose

768
00:40:58,880 --> 00:41:01,480
Speaker 1: Menendez had been he would go all the time to

769
00:41:01,480 --> 00:41:03,680
Speaker 1: their concerts, which was not a thing you know, you

770
00:41:03,800 --> 00:41:07,200
Speaker 1: usually did when you were like the top executive of RCIA.

771
00:41:07,360 --> 00:41:08,840
Speaker 1: That he talked about them all the time, that he

772
00:41:08,880 --> 00:41:11,680
Speaker 1: was kind of fascinated by them. And there have been

773
00:41:12,040 --> 00:41:16,960
Speaker 1: other allegations of abuse. That manager that ran Manudo, that

774
00:41:17,000 --> 00:41:19,400
Speaker 1: created Manunda has been accused by other boys in the

775
00:41:19,440 --> 00:41:23,280
Speaker 1: band of having abused them. So it occurs to Robert Rand,

776
00:41:23,400 --> 00:41:25,520
Speaker 1: wait a second, maybe there's a connection here.

777
00:41:25,680 --> 00:41:26,200
Speaker 3: Wow.

778
00:41:26,400 --> 00:41:29,319
Speaker 1: He reaches out to this other reporter. She is someone

779
00:41:29,320 --> 00:41:32,600
Speaker 1: who's very skilled on doing sexual abuse reporting. She spends

780
00:41:32,640 --> 00:41:35,160
Speaker 1: a lot of time starting to talk to members of

781
00:41:35,200 --> 00:41:39,400
Speaker 1: Menudo just even to tell that story. And eventually, in

782
00:41:39,440 --> 00:41:42,279
Speaker 1: one of her conversations with Roy she's talking to him

783
00:41:42,280 --> 00:41:47,399
Speaker 1: as part of this larger Menudo investigation, and he just

784
00:41:47,560 --> 00:41:50,080
Speaker 1: mentions it. He says, oh, you know, there was this

785
00:41:50,239 --> 00:41:54,560
Speaker 1: RCAA executive and he raped me, And she says she

786
00:41:54,719 --> 00:41:56,080
Speaker 1: got absolute chills.

787
00:41:56,400 --> 00:42:01,720
Speaker 4: Did the person making the accusation even make the connection

788
00:42:01,880 --> 00:42:03,279
Speaker 4: to the Menandez brothers.

789
00:42:03,520 --> 00:42:06,680
Speaker 1: No, Wow, he had not realized in all these years,

790
00:42:06,719 --> 00:42:09,680
Speaker 1: he had not made the connection. But in the docuseries,

791
00:42:09,760 --> 00:42:12,719
Speaker 1: he describes going to the family house and he remembers

792
00:42:12,840 --> 00:42:16,120
Speaker 1: meeting the brother, but he just never connected it to

793
00:42:16,200 --> 00:42:18,799
Speaker 1: the larger story that was in the press at that time. Also,

794
00:42:18,840 --> 00:42:20,799
Speaker 1: you know, he was in Puerto Rico. He was in

795
00:42:20,880 --> 00:42:24,799
Speaker 1: this band. And that manager, by the way, is now

796
00:42:24,840 --> 00:42:29,760
Speaker 1: being investigated by the LAPD for the rape of Roy Roussello,

797
00:42:29,880 --> 00:42:32,640
Speaker 1: who is the person who has come forward to say

798
00:42:33,280 --> 00:42:35,959
Speaker 1: that he was abused by Jose Menendez. He has also

799
00:42:36,120 --> 00:42:38,680
Speaker 1: come forward to say that he was abused for years

800
00:42:38,840 --> 00:42:41,640
Speaker 1: allegedly by the manager Edgar Diez of Minundo.

801
00:42:41,800 --> 00:42:45,000
Speaker 4: Wow, it's amazing how these guys just like find each other.

802
00:42:45,040 --> 00:42:48,319
Speaker 4: They're like, oh, yeah, he's my kind. We'll just run

803
00:42:48,360 --> 00:42:49,879
Speaker 4: a sex trafficking right.

804
00:42:50,120 --> 00:42:54,160
Speaker 1: It feels like it was essentially a factory for this.

805
00:42:54,280 --> 00:42:56,560
Speaker 1: I mean, the way he describes what went on with

806
00:42:56,640 --> 00:42:59,560
Speaker 1: this particular manager is that he would essentially just bring

807
00:42:59,560 --> 00:43:01,640
Speaker 1: in new boys and constantly wait.

808
00:43:01,680 --> 00:43:03,640
Speaker 4: Well, that makes you wonder if that's why they had

809
00:43:03,640 --> 00:43:04,800
Speaker 4: to stay forever, y'all.

810
00:43:04,920 --> 00:43:07,120
Speaker 1: Right, of course, of course it makes you wonder that.

811
00:43:07,680 --> 00:43:09,839
Speaker 1: And so I was thinking about this, like, why do

812
00:43:09,880 --> 00:43:11,799
Speaker 1: we see so many cases of abuse like this, like

813
00:43:11,800 --> 00:43:16,359
Speaker 1: the Nickelodeon case, that's obviously become more prominent recently, and

814
00:43:16,400 --> 00:43:19,279
Speaker 1: I think what happens is is that if you are

815
00:43:19,560 --> 00:43:24,160
Speaker 1: a predator, you look for places that will give you

816
00:43:24,280 --> 00:43:29,480
Speaker 1: the most access to children. And working in entertainment, often,

817
00:43:29,719 --> 00:43:32,359
Speaker 1: especially when it's related to children, does give you a

818
00:43:32,400 --> 00:43:35,880
Speaker 1: lot of access and power and power because people want

819
00:43:36,480 --> 00:43:38,600
Speaker 1: fame and they want money, and so they're willing to

820
00:43:38,600 --> 00:43:41,680
Speaker 1: give their children over to you and trust you because

821
00:43:41,719 --> 00:43:45,400
Speaker 1: there's a tangible benefit to that. And so it was

822
00:43:45,520 --> 00:43:47,560
Speaker 1: really really sad to watch the stock You series, but

823
00:43:47,560 --> 00:43:48,440
Speaker 1: I really recommend it.

824
00:43:48,600 --> 00:43:49,920
Speaker 4: Yeah, it makes me want to watch it.

825
00:43:50,080 --> 00:43:52,600
Speaker 1: It just really broke my heart for poor Roy. So

826
00:43:52,880 --> 00:43:55,279
Speaker 1: where that leaves us is that in May of last year,

827
00:43:55,360 --> 00:43:58,280
Speaker 1: twenty twenty three, lawyers for the brothers filed a petition

828
00:43:58,320 --> 00:44:01,600
Speaker 1: in LA and asked for a new hearing and said

829
00:44:01,600 --> 00:44:04,440
Speaker 1: that this new evidence, the letter and Rory Roussello, the

830
00:44:04,440 --> 00:44:08,239
Speaker 1: former member of Menudo, coming forward, this evidence contradicts the

831
00:44:08,320 --> 00:44:11,080
Speaker 1: arguments prosecutors made in the second trial that there was

832
00:44:11,120 --> 00:44:14,839
Speaker 1: no abuse, and they've asked for the conviction to be overturned.

833
00:44:15,280 --> 00:44:18,040
Speaker 1: And their argument is that the brothers should never have

834
00:44:18,120 --> 00:44:21,120
Speaker 1: been convicted of murder, that this was clearly a case

835
00:44:21,120 --> 00:44:24,879
Speaker 1: of manslaughter because the brothers genuinely believed that they were

836
00:44:24,880 --> 00:44:28,399
Speaker 1: in danger because of the sexual and physical abuse. And

837
00:44:28,680 --> 00:44:31,760
Speaker 1: in June, a judge asked the LA District Attorney's Office

838
00:44:31,760 --> 00:44:36,040
Speaker 1: to respond to this request before a judge can rule. So,

839
00:44:36,040 --> 00:44:39,799
Speaker 1: so this past June, and so because I have never

840
00:44:39,840 --> 00:44:42,280
Speaker 1: found a rabbit hole, I can't fall too deeply into.

841
00:44:42,840 --> 00:44:44,840
Speaker 1: I spoke to one of their lawyers yesterday.

842
00:44:46,320 --> 00:44:48,560
Speaker 4: Yes, of course, is this a different lawyer from there?

843
00:44:48,600 --> 00:44:50,480
Speaker 4: These are different lawyers from the original lawyers.

844
00:44:50,680 --> 00:44:53,120
Speaker 1: Yes. The lawyers are Cliff Gardner, who is a well

845
00:44:53,160 --> 00:44:56,160
Speaker 1: known attorney in California, and Mark Geragos, who is a

846
00:44:56,280 --> 00:44:58,719
Speaker 1: very famous attorney who often turns up.

847
00:44:58,920 --> 00:44:59,920
Speaker 3: Wait, okay, back up.

848
00:45:00,800 --> 00:45:03,880
Speaker 4: So you're like, we got to do this recording tomorrow,

849
00:45:04,080 --> 00:45:04,680
Speaker 4: I just got it.

850
00:45:04,719 --> 00:45:06,800
Speaker 3: Well, well, I had a really.

851
00:45:06,640 --> 00:45:09,320
Speaker 1: Good reason for calling up Cliff. There have been recent

852
00:45:09,400 --> 00:45:12,200
Speaker 1: reports because of this filing, but I couldn't find a

853
00:45:12,239 --> 00:45:14,719
Speaker 1: timeline anywhere, Like I was like, okay, so now we're

854
00:45:14,760 --> 00:45:17,680
Speaker 1: waiting for the LA District Attorney's Office to respond, Like

855
00:45:17,760 --> 00:45:20,360
Speaker 1: when are they going to respond? And when can we

856
00:45:20,480 --> 00:45:23,520
Speaker 1: expect a ruling? It is true that if in fact,

857
00:45:23,680 --> 00:45:26,279
Speaker 1: the court agrees to give them a new trial, and

858
00:45:26,440 --> 00:45:29,319
Speaker 1: if they are convicted of manslaughter, they will get out

859
00:45:29,360 --> 00:45:32,719
Speaker 1: of prison because they have already served beyond the maximum

860
00:45:32,719 --> 00:45:33,440
Speaker 1: for mansilter.

861
00:45:33,800 --> 00:45:35,400
Speaker 4: How old are they now, like in their fifties.

862
00:45:35,440 --> 00:45:37,479
Speaker 1: They're in their fifties, okay, So I mean they would

863
00:45:37,480 --> 00:45:39,760
Speaker 1: get out of prison. So I imagine that they're pretty

864
00:45:39,800 --> 00:45:42,040
Speaker 1: interested in the timeline as well. But I couldn't find

865
00:45:42,040 --> 00:45:44,960
Speaker 1: one anywhere online, so I thought why not. I left

866
00:45:45,000 --> 00:45:47,520
Speaker 1: a message for Cliff Gardner. I found his number online

867
00:45:47,520 --> 00:45:50,480
Speaker 1: and was like, Hey, I'm a reporter and I'm looking

868
00:45:50,480 --> 00:45:53,279
Speaker 1: into this story. I'm recording something tomorrow. Could you give

869
00:45:53,320 --> 00:45:55,279
Speaker 1: me a callback? And he did, and he was a

870
00:45:55,320 --> 00:45:57,600
Speaker 1: lovely man, and he said that they are in fact

871
00:45:57,640 --> 00:46:00,960
Speaker 1: waiting for the LA District Attorney's Office to respond. The

872
00:46:01,040 --> 00:46:03,799
Speaker 1: DA's office has asked for a couple extensions because there

873
00:46:03,840 --> 00:46:07,080
Speaker 1: is just so much from the first trials to go over,

874
00:46:07,800 --> 00:46:11,560
Speaker 1: and that even once they respond, there will be some

875
00:46:11,719 --> 00:46:14,080
Speaker 1: time before the court makes a decision, so there is

876
00:46:14,200 --> 00:46:16,919
Speaker 1: no clear timeline, which is why I could not find one.

877
00:46:17,040 --> 00:46:19,520
Speaker 1: So I see it's my little bit of reporting.

878
00:46:19,800 --> 00:46:20,360
Speaker 4: Wow.

879
00:46:20,600 --> 00:46:23,600
Speaker 1: The other big thing that's coming soon is that Ryan

880
00:46:23,719 --> 00:46:28,280
Speaker 1: Murphy has a series coming for Netflix about the Menanda's brothers,

881
00:46:28,400 --> 00:46:32,400
Speaker 1: So we're about to see a lot of attention. This

882
00:46:32,480 --> 00:46:35,560
Speaker 1: is the second installment of a series Ryan Murphy does

883
00:46:35,600 --> 00:46:38,839
Speaker 1: called the Monster Series for Netflix. Oh right, And the

884
00:46:38,840 --> 00:46:43,200
Speaker 1: first one was Dahmer, and it became the most watched

885
00:46:43,239 --> 00:46:45,640
Speaker 1: English series of all time within twenty eight days. It

886
00:46:45,680 --> 00:46:48,440
Speaker 1: reached a billion view hours in its first sixty days,

887
00:46:48,640 --> 00:46:51,160
Speaker 1: and wow, it was nominated for a bunch of Golden

888
00:46:51,200 --> 00:46:54,359
Speaker 1: Globes and Emmy Awards and won an Emmy Award.

889
00:46:54,280 --> 00:46:56,960
Speaker 4: And like a million think pieces written about how we

890
00:46:57,000 --> 00:46:59,600
Speaker 4: assessed Dahmer then, and every piece was sort of a

891
00:46:59,640 --> 00:47:01,880
Speaker 4: little many in retrospect exactly.

892
00:47:01,960 --> 00:47:03,520
Speaker 1: So I think we're about to get a lot more

893
00:47:03,520 --> 00:47:07,360
Speaker 1: in retrospect on the Menandez brothers. Javier Bardem and Chloe

894
00:47:07,360 --> 00:47:12,000
Speaker 1: Sevignier will star as the Jose and Kiddy Menendez. Wow.

895
00:47:12,040 --> 00:47:14,719
Speaker 1: So I think interest in this case is only going

896
00:47:14,760 --> 00:47:17,120
Speaker 1: to grow in the coming months. So I think that's

897
00:47:17,480 --> 00:47:18,640
Speaker 1: what comes next.

898
00:47:19,000 --> 00:47:21,920
Speaker 4: You can see why this has been the subject of

899
00:47:22,000 --> 00:47:25,080
Speaker 4: endless fascination. There's so many shwists and turns. You can

900
00:47:25,120 --> 00:47:29,400
Speaker 4: see why TikTok or wherever the stands are choosing to

901
00:47:29,520 --> 00:47:34,440
Speaker 4: post their mems and so decided to pick up on it. Yeah, gosh,

902
00:47:34,840 --> 00:47:37,120
Speaker 4: I mean, I really want to keep following where this

903
00:47:37,280 --> 00:47:39,560
Speaker 4: ends up. I'm very interested to hear and I hope

904
00:47:39,600 --> 00:47:41,719
Speaker 4: that we can keep in touch with the lawyer to

905
00:47:41,840 --> 00:47:44,200
Speaker 4: understand when this actually is happening.

906
00:47:44,360 --> 00:47:46,799
Speaker 1: Yes, I'm now. I'm very invested in the future of

907
00:47:46,800 --> 00:47:49,440
Speaker 1: the Menendez Brothers case and I will be following it,

908
00:47:49,560 --> 00:47:57,799
Speaker 1: so don't worry. I will keep you updated. Jess, I

909
00:47:57,800 --> 00:47:59,840
Speaker 1: want to tease what we're talking about next week because

910
00:47:59,840 --> 00:48:01,200
Speaker 1: it's a fun one. Yeah.

911
00:48:01,280 --> 00:48:04,280
Speaker 4: This episode actually gets something that seems to course through

912
00:48:04,320 --> 00:48:07,919
Speaker 4: all of our episodes, which is girl culture. We delve

913
00:48:07,960 --> 00:48:10,040
Speaker 4: into what it means to be a girl today in

914
00:48:10,120 --> 00:48:14,560
Speaker 4: the age of Barbie and Bimbocore and girl Dinner on TikTok,

915
00:48:14,800 --> 00:48:18,360
Speaker 4: and how influences from the past and president seem to

916
00:48:18,360 --> 00:48:18,960
Speaker 4: be colliding.

917
00:48:19,200 --> 00:48:20,000
Speaker 3: It's a lot of fun.

918
00:48:25,960 --> 00:48:29,080
Speaker 1: This is in retrospect. Thanks for listening. Is there a

919
00:48:29,120 --> 00:48:31,680
Speaker 1: pop culture moment you can't stop thinking about and want

920
00:48:31,760 --> 00:48:34,640
Speaker 1: us to explore in a future episode. Email us at

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00:48:34,640 --> 00:48:37,640
Speaker 1: in retropod at gmail dot com or find us on

922
00:48:37,680 --> 00:48:39,160
Speaker 1: Instagram at in retropod.

923
00:48:39,640 --> 00:48:42,080
Speaker 4: If you love this podcast, please rate and review us

924
00:48:42,080 --> 00:48:45,000
Speaker 4: on Apple or Spotify or wherever you listen. If you

925
00:48:45,040 --> 00:48:47,560
Speaker 4: hate it, you can post nasty comments on our Instagram,

926
00:48:47,600 --> 00:48:49,320
Speaker 4: which we may or may not delete.

927
00:48:49,400 --> 00:48:52,040
Speaker 1: You can also find us on Instagram at Jessica Bennett

928
00:48:52,200 --> 00:48:56,040
Speaker 1: and at Susie b NYC. Also check out Jessica's books Feminist,

929
00:48:56,120 --> 00:48:57,680
Speaker 1: Fight Club and This Is Eighteen.

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00:48:58,280 --> 00:49:01,120
Speaker 4: In Retrospect is a production of I Heart Podcasts and

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00:49:01,200 --> 00:49:05,440
Speaker 4: the Media. Lauren Hanson is our supervising producer. Derek Clements

932
00:49:05,520 --> 00:49:09,160
Speaker 4: is our engineer and sound designer. Emily Meronoff is our producer.

933
00:49:09,640 --> 00:49:12,480
Speaker 4: Sharan Atia is our researcher and associate producer.

934
00:49:12,760 --> 00:49:15,960
Speaker 1: Our executive producer from the media is Cindy Levy. Our

935
00:49:16,000 --> 00:49:19,680
Speaker 1: executive producers from iHeart are Anna Stemp and Katrina Norbel.

936
00:49:20,239 --> 00:49:23,920
Speaker 1: Our artwork is from Pentagram. Our mixing engineer is Amanda

937
00:49:24,040 --> 00:49:27,920
Speaker 1: Rose Smith. Additional editing help from Mary Do. We are

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00:49:27,960 --> 00:49:30,920
Speaker 1: your hosts Susie Bannaccarum and Jessica Bennett.

939
00:49:31,080 --> 00:49:34,520
Speaker 4: We are also executive producers. For even more, check out

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00:49:34,560 --> 00:49:37,400
Speaker 4: in retropod dot com. See you next week.