WEBVTT - Spooked 0:00:00.200 --> 0:00:03.920 I think we're alone now. It doesn't seem to be 0:00:04.200 --> 0:00:10.080 anyone around. I think we're all now. The beating of 0:00:10.119 --> 0:00:15.120 my okay, hello, I didn't hear you come in. Maybe not, huh, 0:00:16.079 --> 0:00:20.840 you stealthy listener have arrived nearly undetected at the underground 0:00:20.840 --> 0:00:23.840 headquarters of Deeply Human, the show about why you do 0:00:23.960 --> 0:00:27.680 what you do. I'm your host, Deessa, but I gotta 0:00:27.720 --> 0:00:30.240 say you have picked quite the moment to home in 0:00:30.360 --> 0:00:33.600 on our encrypted signal and tunnel into the office. We 0:00:33.680 --> 0:00:36.080 are in the midst of an investigation into some of 0:00:36.120 --> 0:00:40.800 the most mystical, disorienting experiences a person can have, and 0:00:40.840 --> 0:00:44.599 the brain science that's involved might help explain big important 0:00:44.680 --> 0:00:49.239 chunks of being human, stuff like religion and creativity. So 0:00:49.280 --> 0:00:51.440 you'll forgive me if I have to gently tape you 0:00:51.520 --> 0:00:55.040 to your chair until we're finished. Security in the podcast 0:00:55.080 --> 0:01:00.960 sector has gotten pretty intense. Okay, music is up. There 0:01:01.000 --> 0:01:06.480 we go, and we're off this time a Deeply Human. 0:01:06.880 --> 0:01:10.119 We're heading into the science of perception to discover why 0:01:10.160 --> 0:01:13.360 we're so eager to find signs of life in our surroundings, 0:01:13.880 --> 0:01:16.840 eager enough to see faces in the clouds or tweak 0:01:16.880 --> 0:01:19.680 out when the house creeks at night, even when you 0:01:19.720 --> 0:01:23.360 were alone, why might you sometimes feel like someone's with you? 0:01:24.360 --> 0:01:27.640 To find out, we begin with a story beneath the 0:01:27.680 --> 0:01:37.080 surface of the ocean. I was diving in a cave 0:01:37.200 --> 0:01:42.279 known beautifully as the Mermaids Layer. That's researchers Stephanie s Faba, 0:01:42.680 --> 0:01:46.480 who studies the rock and microbiology of underwater caves known 0:01:46.480 --> 0:01:51.160 in the Bahamas as blue holes. She took a life 0:01:51.240 --> 0:01:55.440 changing dive. I swam in and the water felt amazing. 0:01:55.480 --> 0:01:59.480 It was perfect temperature. When you go into these underwater caves, 0:01:59.520 --> 0:02:02.360 you have to lay down a guideline. If you don't 0:02:02.400 --> 0:02:05.840 have this guidelining back out to the entrance, then you 0:02:06.040 --> 0:02:08.400 may not find your way back out and you will 0:02:08.880 --> 0:02:12.880 die in the cave. Stephanie is a big deal, recognized 0:02:12.919 --> 0:02:15.359 around the world as a top diver, and her work 0:02:15.440 --> 0:02:19.280 is dangerous. Rob my late husband, had died a few 0:02:19.280 --> 0:02:23.120 months before in a diving accident, and he and I 0:02:23.200 --> 0:02:27.840 had always worked in that cave. Stephanie describes Rob as 0:02:27.880 --> 0:02:30.000 the love of her life, and her grief was still 0:02:30.120 --> 0:02:33.200 very fresh. This was her first dive since its death, 0:02:33.800 --> 0:02:35.919 and the whole time she's in the cave, she's sort 0:02:35.960 --> 0:02:39.079 of subconsciously expecting him to swim along and check in 0:02:39.280 --> 0:02:43.360 like he used to do when they dove together. And 0:02:43.400 --> 0:02:47.200 then I went with the mainline further into the cave, 0:02:47.680 --> 0:02:51.320 quite pleased with what I had found. And then I 0:02:51.360 --> 0:02:55.200 turned my head to look for my guideline and realized 0:02:55.240 --> 0:02:59.520 that I had lost contact with it and also visual 0:02:59.680 --> 0:03:02.720 with it, and it all came together at me suddenly 0:03:02.760 --> 0:03:07.000 at once that you know, Rob wasn't there to help me, 0:03:07.320 --> 0:03:10.800 and now I was in deep, deep trouble. I didn't 0:03:10.840 --> 0:03:12.919 know where it was, and I was trying very hard. 0:03:13.120 --> 0:03:15.080 You know, at that moment, you hear your heart beat 0:03:15.240 --> 0:03:18.440 in your ear. I mean it literally is thumping like crazy. 0:03:19.480 --> 0:03:21.840 And I looked at my air supply. I had probably 0:03:22.080 --> 0:03:26.640 maybe fifteen minutes left, and I think at that point 0:03:27.080 --> 0:03:31.960 I became angry, really angry at myself for being so stupid, 0:03:32.680 --> 0:03:35.720 and then I got really angry at Rob for not 0:03:35.800 --> 0:03:46.840 being there. And then I heard something in my head 0:03:47.120 --> 0:03:50.560 that Rob always said to me, and I kind of 0:03:50.680 --> 0:03:53.240 thought it was kind of a cool phrase, except there 0:03:53.920 --> 0:03:57.000 believe you can believe you can't either way, you're right. 0:03:57.680 --> 0:03:59.880 It was an interesting feeling because it was like he 0:04:00.160 --> 0:04:06.200 was there Stephanie is one of many adventurers who have 0:04:06.240 --> 0:04:10.320 reported experiences like this, a feeling of presence during a 0:04:10.400 --> 0:04:18.360 moment of crisis. Sailors, prisoners of war, astronauts and aviators, 0:04:18.360 --> 0:04:22.680 and distress have made similar reports. To understand why all 0:04:22.680 --> 0:04:26.560 these people suddenly perceive a mysterious presence and sometimes hear 0:04:26.640 --> 0:04:29.520 them too, we have to start with how we perceive 0:04:29.560 --> 0:04:36.799 our own bodies. So I right now I am someone 0:04:36.920 --> 0:04:41.840 or something that is embodied. I occupy a volume of 0:04:41.880 --> 0:04:44.640 space that is my body. I have a sense of 0:04:44.760 --> 0:04:48.599 ownership about my body, my arms and leg and indeed 0:04:48.640 --> 0:04:55.479 my entire body feels like my own. Batman in possession 0:04:55.480 --> 0:04:58.320 of his own arms and legs is a nil Anto Swami. 0:04:58.680 --> 0:05:01.240 He's a science journalist and a research fellow at M 0:05:01.240 --> 0:05:03.560 I T. And although I think I get it pretty 0:05:03.640 --> 0:05:06.720 chill during our conversation, I've been a fan for a minute. 0:05:08.000 --> 0:05:11.560 When we think about where ourselves are really located, you know, 0:05:11.640 --> 0:05:14.479 we don't even if it feels like our whole body 0:05:14.600 --> 0:05:18.280 is ours, Our sense of consciousness doesn't seem like it's 0:05:18.279 --> 0:05:22.040 headquartered in our knees or in our hips. Where does 0:05:22.080 --> 0:05:25.840 the self live within the body, That center of awareness. 0:05:25.880 --> 0:05:28.960 It really recites in our heads. We we have the 0:05:29.080 --> 0:05:33.520 sense that we are somewhere right behind our eyes actually, 0:05:34.080 --> 0:05:37.960 and that turns out is also something that the brain 0:05:38.080 --> 0:05:43.360 works really hard to position the center of awareness in 0:05:43.440 --> 0:05:47.680 that place. But our brains are not foolproof, and sometimes 0:05:47.680 --> 0:05:50.919 that center of awareness gets displaced, which can make for 0:05:50.960 --> 0:05:54.280 an out of body experience. People will say that, oh, 0:05:54.400 --> 0:05:58.360 I'm observing myself lying on the bed, but I am 0:05:58.520 --> 0:06:02.919 somewhere near the ceiling. It's very clear now from experiments 0:06:02.960 --> 0:06:05.880 done in labs and from just the study of the brain, 0:06:05.960 --> 0:06:09.760 that this is an illusion that nothing actually leaves the body. 0:06:09.800 --> 0:06:15.719 But it's certainly the case that people definitely have this experience. 0:06:16.160 --> 0:06:19.760 They reported as being a very strong experience, a very 0:06:19.800 --> 0:06:24.080 strong sensation beneath the water line of consciousness. Our brains 0:06:24.120 --> 0:06:27.800 work really hard to create a smooth, consistent perception of 0:06:27.839 --> 0:06:30.680 the world in our place within it. Let's say you 0:06:30.720 --> 0:06:35.240 go for a solo jog. Well, your brain has to 0:06:35.279 --> 0:06:38.880 compensate for the bouncing of your visual field so that 0:06:38.920 --> 0:06:41.400 you don't get motion sick, just piloting your own body 0:06:41.440 --> 0:06:45.800 through the park, and it's constantly integrating signals from the 0:06:45.800 --> 0:06:50.880 outside world. Birds song, a whiff of diesel exhaust with 0:06:51.040 --> 0:06:54.840 signals coming from inside your body. I have to be 0:06:55.880 --> 0:06:59.279 my right knee is doing that clicking thing again. But 0:06:59.400 --> 0:07:04.240 sometimes the signals get miscategorized, and signals from inside I 0:07:04.360 --> 0:07:07.440 perceived just coming from outside, and that can get really 0:07:08.320 --> 0:07:13.480 really spooky, like someone's knees clicking, And if it's not mine, 0:07:14.440 --> 0:07:22.680 then who's someone else's be here? You know, It's like 0:07:22.720 --> 0:07:25.360 I've accepted I'm in trouble, I've screwed up, I'm probably 0:07:25.360 --> 0:07:30.119 gonna die. So back to Stephanie. She's lost, she's running 0:07:30.120 --> 0:07:33.080 out of air, and suddenly she gets this sense that 0:07:33.200 --> 0:07:36.800 she has company, that her late husband Rob is with her. 0:07:38.120 --> 0:07:41.440 I mean, I could hear his voice so clearly. I 0:07:41.480 --> 0:07:46.200 didn't feel alarm. And when I kind of just settled 0:07:46.240 --> 0:07:49.360 down from that and it was almost accepting my situation, 0:07:49.920 --> 0:07:52.880 I looked up and I saw what I thought was 0:07:52.960 --> 0:07:56.000 a little piece of line, a white line that it 0:07:56.040 --> 0:07:58.720 almost looks like the cables that you have your earpieces on. 0:07:59.440 --> 0:08:01.960 And it turned out to be the guideline, the main line, 0:08:02.400 --> 0:08:08.000 and I got on it, went out and just remembered 0:08:08.080 --> 0:08:11.760 sitting there really so glad to see the yellow sunlight 0:08:12.640 --> 0:08:20.680 and saying, don't you ever do that again. Stephanie eventually 0:08:20.760 --> 0:08:24.679 launched a foundation in Rob's honor, and she actually still dives, 0:08:25.000 --> 0:08:28.200 which I think we can all agree makes her both dedicated, 0:08:28.240 --> 0:08:32.800 professional and tough as nails. Experiences like Stephanie's are rare. 0:08:33.280 --> 0:08:36.040 I've never heard the term feeling of presence before, and 0:08:36.080 --> 0:08:39.200 maybe you hadn't either, but you probably have heard of 0:08:39.200 --> 0:08:42.560 the phantom limb phenomenon, where someone who's had a body 0:08:42.640 --> 0:08:46.839 part amputated still reports sensation in that missing arm or foot. 0:08:47.840 --> 0:08:51.200 No a science journalist, he told me that a neuroscientist 0:08:51.400 --> 0:08:56.000 named Olaf Blanket explains the feeling of presence as the 0:08:56.160 --> 0:08:59.520 full body compliment off a phantom limb. So the way 0:08:59.559 --> 0:09:03.559 that you can and experience a limb that doesn't exist, 0:09:04.200 --> 0:09:07.600 you can literally experience a body that doesn't exist, and 0:09:07.640 --> 0:09:10.360 this is kind of a disruption and aberration off the 0:09:10.520 --> 0:09:14.720 mapping mechanisms in the brain. The brain maintains a map 0:09:14.760 --> 0:09:17.920 of the body, its components, and their positions in space, 0:09:18.440 --> 0:09:21.360 and in the case of phantom limb, this map hasn't 0:09:21.360 --> 0:09:24.360 been updated to reflect a new reality. In a case 0:09:24.400 --> 0:09:27.320 of feeling of presence, the map of the body is 0:09:27.360 --> 0:09:32.080 shifted outside of the body completely. Okay, now is the 0:09:32.120 --> 0:09:35.400 time to grab your special occasion clipboard because we are 0:09:35.440 --> 0:09:39.559 heading into the lab and my duct taped friend is 0:09:39.600 --> 0:09:44.520 gonna get weird. We're about to speak to a senior 0:09:44.559 --> 0:09:48.360 scientist from the Laboratory of Cognitive Neuroscience at the Swiss 0:09:48.360 --> 0:09:53.080 Institute of Technology, a guy named Julio Renu. An experiment 0:09:53.080 --> 0:09:56.400 conducted at Julio's lab was able to induce a feeling 0:09:56.480 --> 0:09:59.719 of presence by sending a little electrical current through a 0:09:59.760 --> 0:10:03.880 read of the brain that integrates sensory signals. If the 0:10:03.880 --> 0:10:08.480 patient was standing, the present was felt asked standing, and 0:10:08.559 --> 0:10:11.240 if the patient was seating, the president was felt as sitting. 0:10:11.320 --> 0:10:13.880 So this is actually led to the idea that what 0:10:13.920 --> 0:10:18.079 was going on is really the misattribution of one's own signals. 0:10:18.080 --> 0:10:22.360 So there was basically the patient was misattributing her own 0:10:22.360 --> 0:10:26.440 signals to the presence. So here's this idea again, that 0:10:26.520 --> 0:10:28.800 a feeling of presence can be caused by the brain 0:10:28.880 --> 0:10:33.520 miscategorizing internal bodily signals as external like if it's not 0:10:33.640 --> 0:10:37.280 my body that I'm feeling, there must be another body nearby. 0:10:37.480 --> 0:10:41.320 For research types like Julio, the big question is, Okay, 0:10:41.320 --> 0:10:44.520 how can you test that idea? You have to somehow 0:10:44.559 --> 0:10:48.360 confuse people into thinking that sensations coming from inside them 0:10:48.559 --> 0:10:51.199 were coming from outside, and then find out if any 0:10:51.280 --> 0:10:53.920 of them had a feeling of presence. But how do 0:10:53.960 --> 0:10:56.760 you confuse people about their own bodies in a lab? 0:10:58.040 --> 0:11:00.760 The answer here as if so often the case with 0:11:00.840 --> 0:11:05.400 life's hard questions. There's robots. Basically, we use a tour 0:11:05.480 --> 0:11:08.560 robotic system, one in front of you that you were 0:11:08.600 --> 0:11:11.600 asked to operate with your hands, and then one on 0:11:11.640 --> 0:11:14.400 the back that was replicating the movements that you were 0:11:14.440 --> 0:11:18.320 performing with your hands. So I'm in your lab, I'm 0:11:18.360 --> 0:11:21.679 manipulating something with my hands. Right, It's a joystick. It's 0:11:21.679 --> 0:11:25.320 a kind of a fancy joystick. What is happening is that, 0:11:25.400 --> 0:11:29.040 basically there is a robotic carm that is touching you 0:11:29.400 --> 0:11:32.320 according to the movement that you perform to the joystick 0:11:32.400 --> 0:11:34.719 that we just mentioned. Okay, so if I pushed the 0:11:34.800 --> 0:11:38.679 joystick forward like I'm getting poked in the back, is 0:11:38.679 --> 0:11:41.719 exactly that. It's real time. It's real time exactly, and 0:11:42.400 --> 0:11:44.800 you're got to be poking yourself and when there is 0:11:44.920 --> 0:11:48.679 perfect synchrony between the tooth, you feel like you're actually 0:11:48.720 --> 0:11:51.920 poking yourself, and that's normal. You know you're in control 0:11:51.920 --> 0:11:55.040 of what you're doing. Everything is fine. Whereas if we 0:11:55.080 --> 0:11:58.560 add a delay between what you do and what you 0:11:58.640 --> 0:12:01.400 receive on the back, this start feeling that he's actually 0:12:01.440 --> 0:12:05.720 somebody else doing this. On first listen, adding a delay 0:12:05.760 --> 0:12:08.720 into the system might seem like a small thing, like 0:12:08.960 --> 0:12:11.120 so what if I push forward on my joystick and 0:12:11.160 --> 0:12:13.120 there's a little lag before I get my poke in 0:12:13.160 --> 0:12:15.040 the back? Who's in a rush to get a poke 0:12:15.080 --> 0:12:17.800 in the back? But that lag is the detail on 0:12:17.840 --> 0:12:21.760 which the whole experiment hinges. Like imagine you're walking alone 0:12:21.760 --> 0:12:24.920 at night. You pass under a stream lamp and you 0:12:24.960 --> 0:12:28.160 can see your shadow walking beside you. But then she 0:12:28.280 --> 0:12:31.920 misses a step and now her footfalls land just to 0:12:32.000 --> 0:12:36.679 beat after yours. That little leg wouldn't feel negligible. It 0:12:36.720 --> 0:12:41.040 would be what yourself distressing. And similarly, in Julio's lab, 0:12:41.360 --> 0:12:43.960 you'd have the sensation that this robot arm behind you 0:12:44.120 --> 0:12:47.000 is controlled by you in real time. It's a simple 0:12:47.000 --> 0:12:50.120 reflection of your movements. Like a shadow. You are the 0:12:50.120 --> 0:12:54.839 only agent in command until that little leg, and then 0:12:54.840 --> 0:12:56.920 all of a sudden it feels like, maybe you're not 0:12:57.240 --> 0:13:13.439 entirely in control. So if not, you who About one 0:13:13.480 --> 0:13:18.400 third of Julio's research participants on prompted reported feeling a presence. 0:13:19.200 --> 0:13:22.080 What did they actually say? There was like fence. Somebody said, oh, 0:13:22.120 --> 0:13:24.560 I feel like there was somebody behind me touching me 0:13:24.720 --> 0:13:28.160 it was not me, or he felt creepy. Oh. A 0:13:28.280 --> 0:13:30.600 guy said, oh, I felt like that there was a 0:13:30.640 --> 0:13:34.520 monkey replicating my movements on my back. But typically it 0:13:34.559 --> 0:13:37.640 was reported like as if there was somebody watching them 0:13:37.679 --> 0:13:41.640 and then replicating what we're doing, and that it didn't 0:13:41.679 --> 0:13:45.479 feel like it was them doing it at all. Successfully 0:13:45.520 --> 0:13:48.360 inducing feeling of presence. In this way, I can help 0:13:48.360 --> 0:13:52.080 explain how the phenomenon occurs outside the lab. Two did 0:13:52.080 --> 0:13:55.840 anybody say ghosts? No, they didn't say ghosts. I think 0:13:56.000 --> 0:14:00.560 I don't know. I have not really big experiences with ghosts, honestly, 0:14:00.600 --> 0:14:03.520 But you get touched by ghosts, I don't know. I 0:14:03.520 --> 0:14:05.040 don't know. You know what, I don't know if you're 0:14:05.040 --> 0:14:10.839 supposed to get by ghosts, but is going absolutely not? Okay, 0:14:10.920 --> 0:14:14.559 yeah you see so that that would make sense? Then yeah, okay, 0:14:15.200 --> 0:14:17.400 I'm you know what, I'm sorry you were like, does 0:14:17.440 --> 0:14:24.840 that's a breach of scientific protocol ghost don't type. Well, 0:14:25.120 --> 0:14:28.320 there you go, so don't say you didn't learn anything 0:14:28.400 --> 0:14:34.680 from this rigorous science based program. Someone who knows more 0:14:34.720 --> 0:14:37.960 than me about ghost dues and don't is Bruce Hood. 0:14:38.480 --> 0:14:41.080 He's the director of the Cognitive Development Center in the 0:14:41.080 --> 0:14:44.280 School of Psychological Science at Bristol University in the UK, 0:14:44.880 --> 0:14:47.640 and he wrote a book called super Sense that investigates 0:14:47.640 --> 0:14:50.880 white people believe in ghosts and stuff like past lives. 0:14:50.880 --> 0:14:54.280 In telepathy, Bruce explains that humans are designed to be 0:14:54.360 --> 0:14:58.239 sensitive to other social creatures, were always scanning our environments 0:14:58.280 --> 0:15:01.320 for other animals like us. So one of the really 0:15:01.320 --> 0:15:04.200 interesting phenomenon is that people see faces all over the place, 0:15:04.520 --> 0:15:07.040 and so we seem to have a face detecting system. 0:15:07.080 --> 0:15:09.200 It just looks for a couple of eyes and anything 0:15:09.240 --> 0:15:11.600 that looks like a mouth. So that leads to that 0:15:11.640 --> 0:15:15.400 really interesting phenomenon called paradilia, where people see faces in 0:15:15.800 --> 0:15:19.160 the most weird, wonderful things like slices of pizza or 0:15:19.200 --> 0:15:21.720 you know, a coffee stain or a water stain on 0:15:21.800 --> 0:15:24.880 the wall. What do you mean to Bruce's writing was 0:15:24.920 --> 0:15:29.760 this fascinating explanation of hyperactive agency detection, a term I've 0:15:29.800 --> 0:15:35.040 never heard before. What's hyperactive agency detection? Okay, So within 0:15:35.120 --> 0:15:39.760 the human brain, we have specialized systems for detecting other 0:15:39.880 --> 0:15:45.000 social animals, and we have, if you like, dedicated mechanisms 0:15:45.040 --> 0:15:48.720 for identifying others and their form and their shapes and 0:15:48.760 --> 0:15:52.560 their movements. And what's going on with a hypersensive agency 0:15:52.600 --> 0:15:56.640 detector is that you're attributing or anthropomorphizing things which aren't alive. 0:15:56.720 --> 0:16:00.720 So you're actually over interpreting things. Okay, Then, once we 0:16:00.960 --> 0:16:04.640 categorize something as a living thing, what kind of assumptions 0:16:04.640 --> 0:16:06.480 do we make about it? Well, we we see it 0:16:06.600 --> 0:16:11.040 as having gold directed movement or intentions. Agency detection isn't 0:16:11.080 --> 0:16:14.560 something we're learning from our parents. Bruce thinks it's probably 0:16:14.600 --> 0:16:18.360 an innate faculty we've developed to keep us safe from threats. 0:16:19.080 --> 0:16:21.800 We have a perceptual system which is hyper sensitive to 0:16:21.880 --> 0:16:25.120 the possibility of there being another being out there, hiding 0:16:25.120 --> 0:16:27.840 in the trees or amongst the woods. And we think 0:16:27.880 --> 0:16:31.600 it's probably that sensitive because that's the way it evolved, 0:16:31.600 --> 0:16:34.080 because it is better to assume that there's a possible 0:16:34.400 --> 0:16:37.320 another agent hiding out there rather than just to ignore it. 0:16:37.400 --> 0:16:40.440 So your systems was biased to see these patterns and structures. 0:16:40.880 --> 0:16:43.880 Let's say you're a cave person sitting in the firelight 0:16:44.320 --> 0:16:50.320 beside your special someone on a romantic evening. You're interrupted 0:16:50.320 --> 0:16:54.880 by a nearby rustling of the high grass, and you 0:16:54.920 --> 0:16:56.560 don't know for sure if it's a lion or if 0:16:56.560 --> 0:16:59.600 it's just a breeze. Well, people who presume it's a 0:16:59.640 --> 0:17:03.360 lion grab a spear and then find out it's just 0:17:03.440 --> 0:17:07.040 the wind are gonna look dumb in front of their dates. 0:17:08.359 --> 0:17:11.520 But people who presume it's just the wind continue making 0:17:11.560 --> 0:17:16.240 out and then find out it's a lion are going 0:17:16.280 --> 0:17:19.439 to be eaten in front of their dates. So the 0:17:19.520 --> 0:17:22.000 idea here is that evolution would favor the folks with 0:17:22.040 --> 0:17:25.639 the hair trigger, who readily perceived the presence of another agent. 0:17:26.480 --> 0:17:30.520 But again, our brains aren't foolproof. We're prone to false positives, 0:17:30.800 --> 0:17:34.440 to thinking someone's there even when we're alone. Our brains 0:17:34.440 --> 0:17:37.600 are always looking for patterns in the chaos. We see 0:17:37.680 --> 0:17:40.399 human faces in the knotted bark of a tree, we 0:17:40.480 --> 0:17:43.040 presume it must have been a footfall that snapped a twig. 0:17:43.760 --> 0:17:47.800 And that's partly because we can't really perceive randomness. Our 0:17:47.840 --> 0:17:51.760 brain always imposes a degree of structure or we can't know, 0:17:52.040 --> 0:17:54.760 you can't. It's really tough. I mean in talking to friends, 0:17:54.760 --> 0:17:56.200 I don't you know the kind of talk that you 0:17:56.240 --> 0:17:58.560 do after like two cocktails, when you're solving none of 0:17:58.600 --> 0:18:02.480 the world's problems. But it was just like pattern junkies, like, 0:18:02.560 --> 0:18:04.680 we just gotta have it, you know, and we see 0:18:04.680 --> 0:18:06.600 it where there are patterns, and we see it where 0:18:06.600 --> 0:18:09.520 there are no noise. If you're having a couple of cocktails, 0:18:09.520 --> 0:18:12.000 you'll see more patterns because of course, what happens there 0:18:12.119 --> 0:18:15.119 is you're deactivating the frontal lobe systems. So these are 0:18:15.160 --> 0:18:17.120 the areas in the front of the brain, and that's 0:18:17.119 --> 0:18:19.240 how alcohol works as a depressed and it turns this 0:18:19.359 --> 0:18:21.760 off and then suddenly you see connections and you become 0:18:21.800 --> 0:18:24.199 more creative. And I'm writing off every bar tab on 0:18:24.240 --> 0:18:28.480 my taxes this year. Um, you've done a lot of 0:18:28.520 --> 0:18:34.320 work that investigates how hyperactive agency detection, among other things, 0:18:34.800 --> 0:18:38.879 might relate to our superstitions. Yeah. I wrote a book 0:18:39.119 --> 0:18:42.760 trying to give a scientific account for why people believe 0:18:42.880 --> 0:18:45.520 in the unbelievable, and at that time, there was a 0:18:45.520 --> 0:18:48.240 lot of talk about religion and how people are indoctrinated 0:18:48.280 --> 0:18:50.560 to believe in ghosts and spirits and stuff like that, 0:18:51.000 --> 0:18:53.439 And I was just trying to address the balance and say, well, actually, 0:18:53.480 --> 0:18:55.440 you don't have to be religious to sort of infer 0:18:55.600 --> 0:18:58.520 that there's all this agency in the world. I argued that, actually, 0:18:58.680 --> 0:19:01.320 you know, people who are secular or even atheists will 0:19:01.359 --> 0:19:05.000 have exactly the same sort of misconceptions and beliefs, which 0:19:05.359 --> 0:19:09.880 are tanned amount to supernatural thinking. I'm generally a secular 0:19:09.960 --> 0:19:12.800 kind of gal, but I still cross all the fingers 0:19:12.800 --> 0:19:15.560 on both hands when I'm waiting for good news, and 0:19:15.600 --> 0:19:19.040 I sometimes knock on wood in business meetings. I don't 0:19:19.040 --> 0:19:22.040 actually think those behaviors will change the outcome of events. 0:19:22.560 --> 0:19:25.399 I just feel better to do. Like, our habits of 0:19:25.440 --> 0:19:29.320 mind don't always neatly align with our carefully considered world views. 0:19:30.040 --> 0:19:33.000 So all I think religions have done is they've built 0:19:33.080 --> 0:19:36.879 upon our tendency to see structure and agency and essences 0:19:36.960 --> 0:19:42.240 and causality. All these things pre existed religion. Our cave divers. 0:19:42.280 --> 0:19:45.760 Stephanie seems to hold a pretty similar position. I don't 0:19:45.800 --> 0:19:48.520 believe in God, I don't believe and uh, you know, 0:19:48.520 --> 0:19:51.760 our ghosts or anything like that. But I do recognize 0:19:51.840 --> 0:19:54.920 that some of the things that we do experience, certainly. 0:19:55.440 --> 0:19:57.640 I mean, when we look at our ancestors so long 0:19:57.680 --> 0:20:00.879 ago that tried to explain light ng and thunder and 0:20:00.960 --> 0:20:02.800 things like that, you try to find a way to 0:20:02.840 --> 0:20:06.800 explain things, and that's perfectly normal. Bruce wages that if 0:20:06.840 --> 0:20:10.160 you could start a human society from scratch on an 0:20:10.200 --> 0:20:14.840 island somewhere far removed from our existing traditions, my bed 0:20:14.960 --> 0:20:16.720 is they would soon come up with their own demons, 0:20:16.720 --> 0:20:19.040 their own gods, and their own explanations of the world, 0:20:19.160 --> 0:20:21.679 which are equally the same sort of supernatural beliefs that 0:20:21.720 --> 0:20:24.159 we have in the case of conventional religion. So I 0:20:24.200 --> 0:20:27.199 think it's a natural consequence of the way that we 0:20:27.240 --> 0:20:30.320 have evolved systems to kind of respond to threats, to 0:20:30.359 --> 0:20:32.760 try and control the world around this to see the 0:20:32.800 --> 0:20:34.960 whole being grand and the sums that were all of 0:20:35.000 --> 0:20:37.119 these things I think are just part and parcel of 0:20:37.160 --> 0:20:43.719 the way we interpret the world. When I was tiny, 0:20:44.080 --> 0:20:46.560 my mom was on to put me to bed, and 0:20:46.600 --> 0:20:49.680 she used to freak me out by doing this puppety 0:20:49.800 --> 0:20:52.400 thing with her right hand. It was just a bare 0:20:52.480 --> 0:20:56.200 hand like rings and everything, but her long brown fingers, 0:20:56.240 --> 0:20:59.680 and her thumb would be pointed at me like a beak, 0:21:00.000 --> 0:21:03.639 and she'd slowly advance this little creature towards me, and 0:21:03.720 --> 0:21:05.879 every night I swore I wasn't gonna fall for it 0:21:05.960 --> 0:21:08.960 this time, but then she'd start doing the voice, which 0:21:09.000 --> 0:21:16.320 went he and I couldn't help it. Like all of 0:21:16.400 --> 0:21:20.240 my attention turned towards this hand because it was alive. 0:21:20.760 --> 0:21:22.920 It was getting closer to my face. And I can 0:21:23.000 --> 0:21:26.160 still remember the shape of her bunched finger tips, which 0:21:26.200 --> 0:21:29.359 seemed so clearly a snout, with her thumb as the 0:21:29.400 --> 0:21:32.480 working jaw. And even now when I look at my 0:21:32.560 --> 0:21:36.480 own hand in that position, the bedtime animal is resurrected 0:21:36.520 --> 0:21:39.959 at the end of my own wrist. We can be 0:21:40.000 --> 0:21:43.240 spooked by the features of our own design, even just 0:21:43.320 --> 0:21:46.280 sensing our own bodies. If something goes wrong and we 0:21:46.320 --> 0:21:50.240 can't differentiate what's happening inside from what's happening outside, the 0:21:50.280 --> 0:21:55.480 results aren't just distressing. They could feel paranormal. And even 0:21:55.520 --> 0:21:58.240 when our brains and bodies are humming along and working order, 0:21:58.880 --> 0:22:02.199 we look for signs of life so vigilantly that we 0:22:02.280 --> 0:22:06.000 perceived hidden agents in the rustling grass. We find faces 0:22:06.000 --> 0:22:09.280 in our snack foods. Even when we were alone. We 0:22:09.359 --> 0:22:15.879 see creatures everywhere, friends, foes, gods, or even just fingers 0:22:15.880 --> 0:22:39.240 and thumbs. I think, well, at our next team meeting, 0:22:39.440 --> 0:22:42.720 Deeply Human will be talking menopause. Why do both women 0:22:42.800 --> 0:22:46.159 and whales go through it? Deeply Human is a co 0:22:46.280 --> 0:22:49.679 production of the BBC World Service in American public media 0:22:49.760 --> 0:22:54.679 with I Heart Media, and it's hosted by me, Tessa. Okay, buddy, 0:22:55.240 --> 0:23:01.640 let's get you out of that chair. Huh h man 0:23:02.600 --> 0:23:04.520 running through your own neighborhood with a microphone and you 0:23:04.560 --> 0:23:05.320 freaks people out.