1 00:00:00,200 --> 00:00:03,920 Speaker 1: I think we're alone now. It doesn't seem to be 2 00:00:04,200 --> 00:00:10,080 Speaker 1: anyone around. I think we're all now. The beating of 3 00:00:10,119 --> 00:00:15,120 Speaker 1: my okay, hello, I didn't hear you come in. Maybe not, huh, 4 00:00:16,079 --> 00:00:20,840 Speaker 1: you stealthy listener have arrived nearly undetected at the underground 5 00:00:20,840 --> 00:00:23,840 Speaker 1: headquarters of Deeply Human, the show about why you do 6 00:00:23,960 --> 00:00:27,680 Speaker 1: what you do. I'm your host, Deessa, but I gotta 7 00:00:27,720 --> 00:00:30,240 Speaker 1: say you have picked quite the moment to home in 8 00:00:30,360 --> 00:00:33,600 Speaker 1: on our encrypted signal and tunnel into the office. We 9 00:00:33,680 --> 00:00:36,080 Speaker 1: are in the midst of an investigation into some of 10 00:00:36,120 --> 00:00:40,800 Speaker 1: the most mystical, disorienting experiences a person can have, and 11 00:00:40,840 --> 00:00:44,599 Speaker 1: the brain science that's involved might help explain big important 12 00:00:44,680 --> 00:00:49,239 Speaker 1: chunks of being human, stuff like religion and creativity. So 13 00:00:49,280 --> 00:00:51,440 Speaker 1: you'll forgive me if I have to gently tape you 14 00:00:51,520 --> 00:00:55,040 Speaker 1: to your chair until we're finished. Security in the podcast 15 00:00:55,080 --> 00:01:00,960 Speaker 1: sector has gotten pretty intense. Okay, music is up. There 16 00:01:01,000 --> 00:01:06,480 Speaker 1: we go, and we're off this time a Deeply Human. 17 00:01:06,880 --> 00:01:10,119 Speaker 1: We're heading into the science of perception to discover why 18 00:01:10,160 --> 00:01:13,360 Speaker 1: we're so eager to find signs of life in our surroundings, 19 00:01:13,880 --> 00:01:16,840 Speaker 1: eager enough to see faces in the clouds or tweak 20 00:01:16,880 --> 00:01:19,680 Speaker 1: out when the house creeks at night, even when you 21 00:01:19,720 --> 00:01:23,360 Speaker 1: were alone, why might you sometimes feel like someone's with you? 22 00:01:24,360 --> 00:01:27,640 Speaker 1: To find out, we begin with a story beneath the 23 00:01:27,680 --> 00:01:37,080 Speaker 1: surface of the ocean. I was diving in a cave 24 00:01:37,200 --> 00:01:42,279 Speaker 1: known beautifully as the Mermaids Layer. That's researchers Stephanie s Faba, 25 00:01:42,680 --> 00:01:46,480 Speaker 1: who studies the rock and microbiology of underwater caves known 26 00:01:46,480 --> 00:01:51,160 Speaker 1: in the Bahamas as blue holes. She took a life 27 00:01:51,240 --> 00:01:55,440 Speaker 1: changing dive. I swam in and the water felt amazing. 28 00:01:55,480 --> 00:01:59,480 Speaker 1: It was perfect temperature. When you go into these underwater caves, 29 00:01:59,520 --> 00:02:02,360 Speaker 1: you have to lay down a guideline. If you don't 30 00:02:02,400 --> 00:02:05,840 Speaker 1: have this guidelining back out to the entrance, then you 31 00:02:06,040 --> 00:02:08,400 Speaker 1: may not find your way back out and you will 32 00:02:08,880 --> 00:02:12,880 Speaker 1: die in the cave. Stephanie is a big deal, recognized 33 00:02:12,919 --> 00:02:15,359 Speaker 1: around the world as a top diver, and her work 34 00:02:15,440 --> 00:02:19,280 Speaker 1: is dangerous. Rob my late husband, had died a few 35 00:02:19,280 --> 00:02:23,120 Speaker 1: months before in a diving accident, and he and I 36 00:02:23,200 --> 00:02:27,840 Speaker 1: had always worked in that cave. Stephanie describes Rob as 37 00:02:27,880 --> 00:02:30,000 Speaker 1: the love of her life, and her grief was still 38 00:02:30,120 --> 00:02:33,200 Speaker 1: very fresh. This was her first dive since its death, 39 00:02:33,800 --> 00:02:35,919 Speaker 1: and the whole time she's in the cave, she's sort 40 00:02:35,960 --> 00:02:39,079 Speaker 1: of subconsciously expecting him to swim along and check in 41 00:02:39,280 --> 00:02:43,360 Speaker 1: like he used to do when they dove together. And 42 00:02:43,400 --> 00:02:47,200 Speaker 1: then I went with the mainline further into the cave, 43 00:02:47,680 --> 00:02:51,320 Speaker 1: quite pleased with what I had found. And then I 44 00:02:51,360 --> 00:02:55,200 Speaker 1: turned my head to look for my guideline and realized 45 00:02:55,240 --> 00:02:59,520 Speaker 1: that I had lost contact with it and also visual 46 00:02:59,680 --> 00:03:02,720 Speaker 1: with it, and it all came together at me suddenly 47 00:03:02,760 --> 00:03:07,000 Speaker 1: at once that you know, Rob wasn't there to help me, 48 00:03:07,320 --> 00:03:10,800 Speaker 1: and now I was in deep, deep trouble. I didn't 49 00:03:10,840 --> 00:03:12,919 Speaker 1: know where it was, and I was trying very hard. 50 00:03:13,120 --> 00:03:15,080 Speaker 1: You know, at that moment, you hear your heart beat 51 00:03:15,240 --> 00:03:18,440 Speaker 1: in your ear. I mean it literally is thumping like crazy. 52 00:03:19,480 --> 00:03:21,840 Speaker 1: And I looked at my air supply. I had probably 53 00:03:22,080 --> 00:03:26,640 Speaker 1: maybe fifteen minutes left, and I think at that point 54 00:03:27,080 --> 00:03:31,960 Speaker 1: I became angry, really angry at myself for being so stupid, 55 00:03:32,680 --> 00:03:35,720 Speaker 1: and then I got really angry at Rob for not 56 00:03:35,800 --> 00:03:46,840 Speaker 1: being there. And then I heard something in my head 57 00:03:47,120 --> 00:03:50,560 Speaker 1: that Rob always said to me, and I kind of 58 00:03:50,680 --> 00:03:53,240 Speaker 1: thought it was kind of a cool phrase, except there 59 00:03:53,920 --> 00:03:57,000 Speaker 1: believe you can believe you can't either way, you're right. 60 00:03:57,680 --> 00:03:59,880 Speaker 1: It was an interesting feeling because it was like he 61 00:04:00,160 --> 00:04:06,200 Speaker 1: was there Stephanie is one of many adventurers who have 62 00:04:06,240 --> 00:04:10,320 Speaker 1: reported experiences like this, a feeling of presence during a 63 00:04:10,400 --> 00:04:18,360 Speaker 1: moment of crisis. Sailors, prisoners of war, astronauts and aviators, 64 00:04:18,360 --> 00:04:22,680 Speaker 1: and distress have made similar reports. To understand why all 65 00:04:22,680 --> 00:04:26,560 Speaker 1: these people suddenly perceive a mysterious presence and sometimes hear 66 00:04:26,640 --> 00:04:29,520 Speaker 1: them too, we have to start with how we perceive 67 00:04:29,560 --> 00:04:36,799 Speaker 1: our own bodies. So I right now I am someone 68 00:04:36,920 --> 00:04:41,840 Speaker 1: or something that is embodied. I occupy a volume of 69 00:04:41,880 --> 00:04:44,640 Speaker 1: space that is my body. I have a sense of 70 00:04:44,760 --> 00:04:48,599 Speaker 1: ownership about my body, my arms and leg and indeed 71 00:04:48,640 --> 00:04:55,479 Speaker 1: my entire body feels like my own. Batman in possession 72 00:04:55,480 --> 00:04:58,320 Speaker 1: of his own arms and legs is a nil Anto Swami. 73 00:04:58,680 --> 00:05:01,240 Speaker 1: He's a science journalist and a research fellow at M 74 00:05:01,240 --> 00:05:03,560 Speaker 1: I T. And although I think I get it pretty 75 00:05:03,640 --> 00:05:06,720 Speaker 1: chill during our conversation, I've been a fan for a minute. 76 00:05:08,000 --> 00:05:11,560 Speaker 1: When we think about where ourselves are really located, you know, 77 00:05:11,640 --> 00:05:14,479 Speaker 1: we don't even if it feels like our whole body 78 00:05:14,600 --> 00:05:18,280 Speaker 1: is ours, Our sense of consciousness doesn't seem like it's 79 00:05:18,279 --> 00:05:22,040 Speaker 1: headquartered in our knees or in our hips. Where does 80 00:05:22,080 --> 00:05:25,840 Speaker 1: the self live within the body, That center of awareness. 81 00:05:25,880 --> 00:05:28,960 Speaker 1: It really recites in our heads. We we have the 82 00:05:29,080 --> 00:05:33,520 Speaker 1: sense that we are somewhere right behind our eyes actually, 83 00:05:34,080 --> 00:05:37,960 Speaker 1: and that turns out is also something that the brain 84 00:05:38,080 --> 00:05:43,360 Speaker 1: works really hard to position the center of awareness in 85 00:05:43,440 --> 00:05:47,680 Speaker 1: that place. But our brains are not foolproof, and sometimes 86 00:05:47,680 --> 00:05:50,919 Speaker 1: that center of awareness gets displaced, which can make for 87 00:05:50,960 --> 00:05:54,280 Speaker 1: an out of body experience. People will say that, oh, 88 00:05:54,400 --> 00:05:58,360 Speaker 1: I'm observing myself lying on the bed, but I am 89 00:05:58,520 --> 00:06:02,919 Speaker 1: somewhere near the ceiling. It's very clear now from experiments 90 00:06:02,960 --> 00:06:05,880 Speaker 1: done in labs and from just the study of the brain, 91 00:06:05,960 --> 00:06:09,760 Speaker 1: that this is an illusion that nothing actually leaves the body. 92 00:06:09,800 --> 00:06:15,719 Speaker 1: But it's certainly the case that people definitely have this experience. 93 00:06:16,160 --> 00:06:19,760 Speaker 1: They reported as being a very strong experience, a very 94 00:06:19,800 --> 00:06:24,080 Speaker 1: strong sensation beneath the water line of consciousness. Our brains 95 00:06:24,120 --> 00:06:27,800 Speaker 1: work really hard to create a smooth, consistent perception of 96 00:06:27,839 --> 00:06:30,680 Speaker 1: the world in our place within it. Let's say you 97 00:06:30,720 --> 00:06:35,240 Speaker 1: go for a solo jog. Well, your brain has to 98 00:06:35,279 --> 00:06:38,880 Speaker 1: compensate for the bouncing of your visual field so that 99 00:06:38,920 --> 00:06:41,400 Speaker 1: you don't get motion sick, just piloting your own body 100 00:06:41,440 --> 00:06:45,800 Speaker 1: through the park, and it's constantly integrating signals from the 101 00:06:45,800 --> 00:06:50,880 Speaker 1: outside world. Birds song, a whiff of diesel exhaust with 102 00:06:51,040 --> 00:06:54,840 Speaker 1: signals coming from inside your body. I have to be 103 00:06:55,880 --> 00:06:59,279 Speaker 1: my right knee is doing that clicking thing again. But 104 00:06:59,400 --> 00:07:04,240 Speaker 1: sometimes the signals get miscategorized, and signals from inside I 105 00:07:04,360 --> 00:07:07,440 Speaker 1: perceived just coming from outside, and that can get really 106 00:07:08,320 --> 00:07:13,480 Speaker 1: really spooky, like someone's knees clicking, And if it's not mine, 107 00:07:14,440 --> 00:07:22,680 Speaker 1: then who's someone else's be here? You know, It's like 108 00:07:22,720 --> 00:07:25,360 Speaker 1: I've accepted I'm in trouble, I've screwed up, I'm probably 109 00:07:25,360 --> 00:07:30,119 Speaker 1: gonna die. So back to Stephanie. She's lost, she's running 110 00:07:30,120 --> 00:07:33,080 Speaker 1: out of air, and suddenly she gets this sense that 111 00:07:33,200 --> 00:07:36,800 Speaker 1: she has company, that her late husband Rob is with her. 112 00:07:38,120 --> 00:07:41,440 Speaker 1: I mean, I could hear his voice so clearly. I 113 00:07:41,480 --> 00:07:46,200 Speaker 1: didn't feel alarm. And when I kind of just settled 114 00:07:46,240 --> 00:07:49,360 Speaker 1: down from that and it was almost accepting my situation, 115 00:07:49,920 --> 00:07:52,880 Speaker 1: I looked up and I saw what I thought was 116 00:07:52,960 --> 00:07:56,000 Speaker 1: a little piece of line, a white line that it 117 00:07:56,040 --> 00:07:58,720 Speaker 1: almost looks like the cables that you have your earpieces on. 118 00:07:59,440 --> 00:08:01,960 Speaker 1: And it turned out to be the guideline, the main line, 119 00:08:02,400 --> 00:08:08,000 Speaker 1: and I got on it, went out and just remembered 120 00:08:08,080 --> 00:08:11,760 Speaker 1: sitting there really so glad to see the yellow sunlight 121 00:08:12,640 --> 00:08:20,680 Speaker 1: and saying, don't you ever do that again. Stephanie eventually 122 00:08:20,760 --> 00:08:24,679 Speaker 1: launched a foundation in Rob's honor, and she actually still dives, 123 00:08:25,000 --> 00:08:28,200 Speaker 1: which I think we can all agree makes her both dedicated, 124 00:08:28,240 --> 00:08:32,800 Speaker 1: professional and tough as nails. Experiences like Stephanie's are rare. 125 00:08:33,280 --> 00:08:36,040 Speaker 1: I've never heard the term feeling of presence before, and 126 00:08:36,080 --> 00:08:39,200 Speaker 1: maybe you hadn't either, but you probably have heard of 127 00:08:39,200 --> 00:08:42,560 Speaker 1: the phantom limb phenomenon, where someone who's had a body 128 00:08:42,640 --> 00:08:46,839 Speaker 1: part amputated still reports sensation in that missing arm or foot. 129 00:08:47,840 --> 00:08:51,200 Speaker 1: No a science journalist, he told me that a neuroscientist 130 00:08:51,400 --> 00:08:56,000 Speaker 1: named Olaf Blanket explains the feeling of presence as the 131 00:08:56,160 --> 00:08:59,520 Speaker 1: full body compliment off a phantom limb. So the way 132 00:08:59,559 --> 00:09:03,559 Speaker 1: that you can and experience a limb that doesn't exist, 133 00:09:04,200 --> 00:09:07,600 Speaker 1: you can literally experience a body that doesn't exist, and 134 00:09:07,640 --> 00:09:10,360 Speaker 1: this is kind of a disruption and aberration off the 135 00:09:10,520 --> 00:09:14,720 Speaker 1: mapping mechanisms in the brain. The brain maintains a map 136 00:09:14,760 --> 00:09:17,920 Speaker 1: of the body, its components, and their positions in space, 137 00:09:18,440 --> 00:09:21,360 Speaker 1: and in the case of phantom limb, this map hasn't 138 00:09:21,360 --> 00:09:24,360 Speaker 1: been updated to reflect a new reality. In a case 139 00:09:24,400 --> 00:09:27,320 Speaker 1: of feeling of presence, the map of the body is 140 00:09:27,360 --> 00:09:32,080 Speaker 1: shifted outside of the body completely. Okay, now is the 141 00:09:32,120 --> 00:09:35,400 Speaker 1: time to grab your special occasion clipboard because we are 142 00:09:35,440 --> 00:09:39,559 Speaker 1: heading into the lab and my duct taped friend is 143 00:09:39,600 --> 00:09:44,520 Speaker 1: gonna get weird. We're about to speak to a senior 144 00:09:44,559 --> 00:09:48,360 Speaker 1: scientist from the Laboratory of Cognitive Neuroscience at the Swiss 145 00:09:48,360 --> 00:09:53,080 Speaker 1: Institute of Technology, a guy named Julio Renu. An experiment 146 00:09:53,080 --> 00:09:56,400 Speaker 1: conducted at Julio's lab was able to induce a feeling 147 00:09:56,480 --> 00:09:59,719 Speaker 1: of presence by sending a little electrical current through a 148 00:09:59,760 --> 00:10:03,880 Speaker 1: read of the brain that integrates sensory signals. If the 149 00:10:03,880 --> 00:10:08,480 Speaker 1: patient was standing, the present was felt asked standing, and 150 00:10:08,559 --> 00:10:11,240 Speaker 1: if the patient was seating, the president was felt as sitting. 151 00:10:11,320 --> 00:10:13,880 Speaker 1: So this is actually led to the idea that what 152 00:10:13,920 --> 00:10:18,079 Speaker 1: was going on is really the misattribution of one's own signals. 153 00:10:18,080 --> 00:10:22,360 Speaker 1: So there was basically the patient was misattributing her own 154 00:10:22,360 --> 00:10:26,440 Speaker 1: signals to the presence. So here's this idea again, that 155 00:10:26,520 --> 00:10:28,800 Speaker 1: a feeling of presence can be caused by the brain 156 00:10:28,880 --> 00:10:33,520 Speaker 1: miscategorizing internal bodily signals as external like if it's not 157 00:10:33,640 --> 00:10:37,280 Speaker 1: my body that I'm feeling, there must be another body nearby. 158 00:10:37,480 --> 00:10:41,320 Speaker 1: For research types like Julio, the big question is, Okay, 159 00:10:41,320 --> 00:10:44,520 Speaker 1: how can you test that idea? You have to somehow 160 00:10:44,559 --> 00:10:48,360 Speaker 1: confuse people into thinking that sensations coming from inside them 161 00:10:48,559 --> 00:10:51,199 Speaker 1: were coming from outside, and then find out if any 162 00:10:51,280 --> 00:10:53,920 Speaker 1: of them had a feeling of presence. But how do 163 00:10:53,960 --> 00:10:56,760 Speaker 1: you confuse people about their own bodies in a lab? 164 00:10:58,040 --> 00:11:00,760 Speaker 1: The answer here as if so often the case with 165 00:11:00,840 --> 00:11:05,400 Speaker 1: life's hard questions. There's robots. Basically, we use a tour 166 00:11:05,480 --> 00:11:08,560 Speaker 1: robotic system, one in front of you that you were 167 00:11:08,600 --> 00:11:11,600 Speaker 1: asked to operate with your hands, and then one on 168 00:11:11,640 --> 00:11:14,400 Speaker 1: the back that was replicating the movements that you were 169 00:11:14,440 --> 00:11:18,320 Speaker 1: performing with your hands. So I'm in your lab, I'm 170 00:11:18,360 --> 00:11:21,679 Speaker 1: manipulating something with my hands. Right, It's a joystick. It's 171 00:11:21,679 --> 00:11:25,320 Speaker 1: a kind of a fancy joystick. What is happening is that, 172 00:11:25,400 --> 00:11:29,040 Speaker 1: basically there is a robotic carm that is touching you 173 00:11:29,400 --> 00:11:32,320 Speaker 1: according to the movement that you perform to the joystick 174 00:11:32,400 --> 00:11:34,719 Speaker 1: that we just mentioned. Okay, so if I pushed the 175 00:11:34,800 --> 00:11:38,679 Speaker 1: joystick forward like I'm getting poked in the back, is 176 00:11:38,679 --> 00:11:41,719 Speaker 1: exactly that. It's real time. It's real time exactly, and 177 00:11:42,400 --> 00:11:44,800 Speaker 1: you're got to be poking yourself and when there is 178 00:11:44,920 --> 00:11:48,679 Speaker 1: perfect synchrony between the tooth, you feel like you're actually 179 00:11:48,720 --> 00:11:51,920 Speaker 1: poking yourself, and that's normal. You know you're in control 180 00:11:51,920 --> 00:11:55,040 Speaker 1: of what you're doing. Everything is fine. Whereas if we 181 00:11:55,080 --> 00:11:58,560 Speaker 1: add a delay between what you do and what you 182 00:11:58,640 --> 00:12:01,400 Speaker 1: receive on the back, this start feeling that he's actually 183 00:12:01,440 --> 00:12:05,720 Speaker 1: somebody else doing this. On first listen, adding a delay 184 00:12:05,760 --> 00:12:08,720 Speaker 1: into the system might seem like a small thing, like 185 00:12:08,960 --> 00:12:11,120 Speaker 1: so what if I push forward on my joystick and 186 00:12:11,160 --> 00:12:13,120 Speaker 1: there's a little lag before I get my poke in 187 00:12:13,160 --> 00:12:15,040 Speaker 1: the back? Who's in a rush to get a poke 188 00:12:15,080 --> 00:12:17,800 Speaker 1: in the back? But that lag is the detail on 189 00:12:17,840 --> 00:12:21,760 Speaker 1: which the whole experiment hinges. Like imagine you're walking alone 190 00:12:21,760 --> 00:12:24,920 Speaker 1: at night. You pass under a stream lamp and you 191 00:12:24,960 --> 00:12:28,160 Speaker 1: can see your shadow walking beside you. But then she 192 00:12:28,280 --> 00:12:31,920 Speaker 1: misses a step and now her footfalls land just to 193 00:12:32,000 --> 00:12:36,679 Speaker 1: beat after yours. That little leg wouldn't feel negligible. It 194 00:12:36,720 --> 00:12:41,040 Speaker 1: would be what yourself distressing. And similarly, in Julio's lab, 195 00:12:41,360 --> 00:12:43,960 Speaker 1: you'd have the sensation that this robot arm behind you 196 00:12:44,120 --> 00:12:47,000 Speaker 1: is controlled by you in real time. It's a simple 197 00:12:47,000 --> 00:12:50,120 Speaker 1: reflection of your movements. Like a shadow. You are the 198 00:12:50,120 --> 00:12:54,839 Speaker 1: only agent in command until that little leg, and then 199 00:12:54,840 --> 00:12:56,920 Speaker 1: all of a sudden it feels like, maybe you're not 200 00:12:57,240 --> 00:13:13,439 Speaker 1: entirely in control. So if not, you who About one 201 00:13:13,480 --> 00:13:18,400 Speaker 1: third of Julio's research participants on prompted reported feeling a presence. 202 00:13:19,200 --> 00:13:22,080 Speaker 1: What did they actually say? There was like fence. Somebody said, oh, 203 00:13:22,120 --> 00:13:24,560 Speaker 1: I feel like there was somebody behind me touching me 204 00:13:24,720 --> 00:13:28,160 Speaker 1: it was not me, or he felt creepy. Oh. A 205 00:13:28,280 --> 00:13:30,600 Speaker 1: guy said, oh, I felt like that there was a 206 00:13:30,640 --> 00:13:34,520 Speaker 1: monkey replicating my movements on my back. But typically it 207 00:13:34,559 --> 00:13:37,640 Speaker 1: was reported like as if there was somebody watching them 208 00:13:37,679 --> 00:13:41,640 Speaker 1: and then replicating what we're doing, and that it didn't 209 00:13:41,679 --> 00:13:45,479 Speaker 1: feel like it was them doing it at all. Successfully 210 00:13:45,520 --> 00:13:48,360 Speaker 1: inducing feeling of presence. In this way, I can help 211 00:13:48,360 --> 00:13:52,080 Speaker 1: explain how the phenomenon occurs outside the lab. Two did 212 00:13:52,080 --> 00:13:55,840 Speaker 1: anybody say ghosts? No, they didn't say ghosts. I think 213 00:13:56,000 --> 00:14:00,560 Speaker 1: I don't know. I have not really big experiences with ghosts, honestly, 214 00:14:00,600 --> 00:14:03,520 Speaker 1: But you get touched by ghosts, I don't know. I 215 00:14:03,520 --> 00:14:05,040 Speaker 1: don't know. You know what, I don't know if you're 216 00:14:05,040 --> 00:14:10,839 Speaker 1: supposed to get by ghosts, but is going absolutely not? Okay, 217 00:14:10,920 --> 00:14:14,559 Speaker 1: yeah you see so that that would make sense? Then yeah, okay, 218 00:14:15,200 --> 00:14:17,400 Speaker 1: I'm you know what, I'm sorry you were like, does 219 00:14:17,440 --> 00:14:24,840 Speaker 1: that's a breach of scientific protocol ghost don't type. Well, 220 00:14:25,120 --> 00:14:28,320 Speaker 1: there you go, so don't say you didn't learn anything 221 00:14:28,400 --> 00:14:34,680 Speaker 1: from this rigorous science based program. Someone who knows more 222 00:14:34,720 --> 00:14:37,960 Speaker 1: than me about ghost dues and don't is Bruce Hood. 223 00:14:38,480 --> 00:14:41,080 Speaker 1: He's the director of the Cognitive Development Center in the 224 00:14:41,080 --> 00:14:44,280 Speaker 1: School of Psychological Science at Bristol University in the UK, 225 00:14:44,880 --> 00:14:47,640 Speaker 1: and he wrote a book called super Sense that investigates 226 00:14:47,640 --> 00:14:50,880 Speaker 1: white people believe in ghosts and stuff like past lives. 227 00:14:50,880 --> 00:14:54,280 Speaker 1: In telepathy, Bruce explains that humans are designed to be 228 00:14:54,360 --> 00:14:58,239 Speaker 1: sensitive to other social creatures, were always scanning our environments 229 00:14:58,280 --> 00:15:01,320 Speaker 1: for other animals like us. So one of the really 230 00:15:01,320 --> 00:15:04,200 Speaker 1: interesting phenomenon is that people see faces all over the place, 231 00:15:04,520 --> 00:15:07,040 Speaker 1: and so we seem to have a face detecting system. 232 00:15:07,080 --> 00:15:09,200 Speaker 1: It just looks for a couple of eyes and anything 233 00:15:09,240 --> 00:15:11,600 Speaker 1: that looks like a mouth. So that leads to that 234 00:15:11,640 --> 00:15:15,400 Speaker 1: really interesting phenomenon called paradilia, where people see faces in 235 00:15:15,800 --> 00:15:19,160 Speaker 1: the most weird, wonderful things like slices of pizza or 236 00:15:19,200 --> 00:15:21,720 Speaker 1: you know, a coffee stain or a water stain on 237 00:15:21,800 --> 00:15:24,880 Speaker 1: the wall. What do you mean to Bruce's writing was 238 00:15:24,920 --> 00:15:29,760 Speaker 1: this fascinating explanation of hyperactive agency detection, a term I've 239 00:15:29,800 --> 00:15:35,040 Speaker 1: never heard before. What's hyperactive agency detection? Okay, So within 240 00:15:35,120 --> 00:15:39,760 Speaker 1: the human brain, we have specialized systems for detecting other 241 00:15:39,880 --> 00:15:45,000 Speaker 1: social animals, and we have, if you like, dedicated mechanisms 242 00:15:45,040 --> 00:15:48,720 Speaker 1: for identifying others and their form and their shapes and 243 00:15:48,760 --> 00:15:52,560 Speaker 1: their movements. And what's going on with a hypersensive agency 244 00:15:52,600 --> 00:15:56,640 Speaker 1: detector is that you're attributing or anthropomorphizing things which aren't alive. 245 00:15:56,720 --> 00:16:00,720 Speaker 1: So you're actually over interpreting things. Okay, Then, once we 246 00:16:00,960 --> 00:16:04,640 Speaker 1: categorize something as a living thing, what kind of assumptions 247 00:16:04,640 --> 00:16:06,480 Speaker 1: do we make about it? Well, we we see it 248 00:16:06,600 --> 00:16:11,040 Speaker 1: as having gold directed movement or intentions. Agency detection isn't 249 00:16:11,080 --> 00:16:14,560 Speaker 1: something we're learning from our parents. Bruce thinks it's probably 250 00:16:14,600 --> 00:16:18,360 Speaker 1: an innate faculty we've developed to keep us safe from threats. 251 00:16:19,080 --> 00:16:21,800 Speaker 1: We have a perceptual system which is hyper sensitive to 252 00:16:21,880 --> 00:16:25,120 Speaker 1: the possibility of there being another being out there, hiding 253 00:16:25,120 --> 00:16:27,840 Speaker 1: in the trees or amongst the woods. And we think 254 00:16:27,880 --> 00:16:31,600 Speaker 1: it's probably that sensitive because that's the way it evolved, 255 00:16:31,600 --> 00:16:34,080 Speaker 1: because it is better to assume that there's a possible 256 00:16:34,400 --> 00:16:37,320 Speaker 1: another agent hiding out there rather than just to ignore it. 257 00:16:37,400 --> 00:16:40,440 Speaker 1: So your systems was biased to see these patterns and structures. 258 00:16:40,880 --> 00:16:43,880 Speaker 1: Let's say you're a cave person sitting in the firelight 259 00:16:44,320 --> 00:16:50,320 Speaker 1: beside your special someone on a romantic evening. You're interrupted 260 00:16:50,320 --> 00:16:54,880 Speaker 1: by a nearby rustling of the high grass, and you 261 00:16:54,920 --> 00:16:56,560 Speaker 1: don't know for sure if it's a lion or if 262 00:16:56,560 --> 00:16:59,600 Speaker 1: it's just a breeze. Well, people who presume it's a 263 00:16:59,640 --> 00:17:03,360 Speaker 1: lion grab a spear and then find out it's just 264 00:17:03,440 --> 00:17:07,040 Speaker 1: the wind are gonna look dumb in front of their dates. 265 00:17:08,359 --> 00:17:11,520 Speaker 1: But people who presume it's just the wind continue making 266 00:17:11,560 --> 00:17:16,240 Speaker 1: out and then find out it's a lion are going 267 00:17:16,280 --> 00:17:19,439 Speaker 1: to be eaten in front of their dates. So the 268 00:17:19,520 --> 00:17:22,000 Speaker 1: idea here is that evolution would favor the folks with 269 00:17:22,040 --> 00:17:25,639 Speaker 1: the hair trigger, who readily perceived the presence of another agent. 270 00:17:26,480 --> 00:17:30,520 Speaker 1: But again, our brains aren't foolproof. We're prone to false positives, 271 00:17:30,800 --> 00:17:34,440 Speaker 1: to thinking someone's there even when we're alone. Our brains 272 00:17:34,440 --> 00:17:37,600 Speaker 1: are always looking for patterns in the chaos. We see 273 00:17:37,680 --> 00:17:40,399 Speaker 1: human faces in the knotted bark of a tree, we 274 00:17:40,480 --> 00:17:43,040 Speaker 1: presume it must have been a footfall that snapped a twig. 275 00:17:43,760 --> 00:17:47,800 Speaker 1: And that's partly because we can't really perceive randomness. Our 276 00:17:47,840 --> 00:17:51,760 Speaker 1: brain always imposes a degree of structure or we can't know, 277 00:17:52,040 --> 00:17:54,760 Speaker 1: you can't. It's really tough. I mean in talking to friends, 278 00:17:54,760 --> 00:17:56,200 Speaker 1: I don't you know the kind of talk that you 279 00:17:56,240 --> 00:17:58,560 Speaker 1: do after like two cocktails, when you're solving none of 280 00:17:58,600 --> 00:18:02,480 Speaker 1: the world's problems. But it was just like pattern junkies, like, 281 00:18:02,560 --> 00:18:04,680 Speaker 1: we just gotta have it, you know, and we see 282 00:18:04,680 --> 00:18:06,600 Speaker 1: it where there are patterns, and we see it where 283 00:18:06,600 --> 00:18:09,520 Speaker 1: there are no noise. If you're having a couple of cocktails, 284 00:18:09,520 --> 00:18:12,000 Speaker 1: you'll see more patterns because of course, what happens there 285 00:18:12,119 --> 00:18:15,119 Speaker 1: is you're deactivating the frontal lobe systems. So these are 286 00:18:15,160 --> 00:18:17,120 Speaker 1: the areas in the front of the brain, and that's 287 00:18:17,119 --> 00:18:19,240 Speaker 1: how alcohol works as a depressed and it turns this 288 00:18:19,359 --> 00:18:21,760 Speaker 1: off and then suddenly you see connections and you become 289 00:18:21,800 --> 00:18:24,199 Speaker 1: more creative. And I'm writing off every bar tab on 290 00:18:24,240 --> 00:18:28,480 Speaker 1: my taxes this year. Um, you've done a lot of 291 00:18:28,520 --> 00:18:34,320 Speaker 1: work that investigates how hyperactive agency detection, among other things, 292 00:18:34,800 --> 00:18:38,879 Speaker 1: might relate to our superstitions. Yeah. I wrote a book 293 00:18:39,119 --> 00:18:42,760 Speaker 1: trying to give a scientific account for why people believe 294 00:18:42,880 --> 00:18:45,520 Speaker 1: in the unbelievable, and at that time, there was a 295 00:18:45,520 --> 00:18:48,240 Speaker 1: lot of talk about religion and how people are indoctrinated 296 00:18:48,280 --> 00:18:50,560 Speaker 1: to believe in ghosts and spirits and stuff like that, 297 00:18:51,000 --> 00:18:53,439 Speaker 1: And I was just trying to address the balance and say, well, actually, 298 00:18:53,480 --> 00:18:55,440 Speaker 1: you don't have to be religious to sort of infer 299 00:18:55,600 --> 00:18:58,520 Speaker 1: that there's all this agency in the world. I argued that, actually, 300 00:18:58,680 --> 00:19:01,320 Speaker 1: you know, people who are secular or even atheists will 301 00:19:01,359 --> 00:19:05,000 Speaker 1: have exactly the same sort of misconceptions and beliefs, which 302 00:19:05,359 --> 00:19:09,880 Speaker 1: are tanned amount to supernatural thinking. I'm generally a secular 303 00:19:09,960 --> 00:19:12,800 Speaker 1: kind of gal, but I still cross all the fingers 304 00:19:12,800 --> 00:19:15,560 Speaker 1: on both hands when I'm waiting for good news, and 305 00:19:15,600 --> 00:19:19,040 Speaker 1: I sometimes knock on wood in business meetings. I don't 306 00:19:19,040 --> 00:19:22,040 Speaker 1: actually think those behaviors will change the outcome of events. 307 00:19:22,560 --> 00:19:25,399 Speaker 1: I just feel better to do. Like, our habits of 308 00:19:25,440 --> 00:19:29,320 Speaker 1: mind don't always neatly align with our carefully considered world views. 309 00:19:30,040 --> 00:19:33,000 Speaker 1: So all I think religions have done is they've built 310 00:19:33,080 --> 00:19:36,879 Speaker 1: upon our tendency to see structure and agency and essences 311 00:19:36,960 --> 00:19:42,240 Speaker 1: and causality. All these things pre existed religion. Our cave divers. 312 00:19:42,280 --> 00:19:45,760 Speaker 1: Stephanie seems to hold a pretty similar position. I don't 313 00:19:45,800 --> 00:19:48,520 Speaker 1: believe in God, I don't believe and uh, you know, 314 00:19:48,520 --> 00:19:51,760 Speaker 1: our ghosts or anything like that. But I do recognize 315 00:19:51,840 --> 00:19:54,920 Speaker 1: that some of the things that we do experience, certainly. 316 00:19:55,440 --> 00:19:57,640 Speaker 1: I mean, when we look at our ancestors so long 317 00:19:57,680 --> 00:20:00,879 Speaker 1: ago that tried to explain light ng and thunder and 318 00:20:00,960 --> 00:20:02,800 Speaker 1: things like that, you try to find a way to 319 00:20:02,840 --> 00:20:06,800 Speaker 1: explain things, and that's perfectly normal. Bruce wages that if 320 00:20:06,840 --> 00:20:10,160 Speaker 1: you could start a human society from scratch on an 321 00:20:10,200 --> 00:20:14,840 Speaker 1: island somewhere far removed from our existing traditions, my bed 322 00:20:14,960 --> 00:20:16,720 Speaker 1: is they would soon come up with their own demons, 323 00:20:16,720 --> 00:20:19,040 Speaker 1: their own gods, and their own explanations of the world, 324 00:20:19,160 --> 00:20:21,679 Speaker 1: which are equally the same sort of supernatural beliefs that 325 00:20:21,720 --> 00:20:24,159 Speaker 1: we have in the case of conventional religion. So I 326 00:20:24,200 --> 00:20:27,199 Speaker 1: think it's a natural consequence of the way that we 327 00:20:27,240 --> 00:20:30,320 Speaker 1: have evolved systems to kind of respond to threats, to 328 00:20:30,359 --> 00:20:32,760 Speaker 1: try and control the world around this to see the 329 00:20:32,800 --> 00:20:34,960 Speaker 1: whole being grand and the sums that were all of 330 00:20:35,000 --> 00:20:37,119 Speaker 1: these things I think are just part and parcel of 331 00:20:37,160 --> 00:20:43,719 Speaker 1: the way we interpret the world. When I was tiny, 332 00:20:44,080 --> 00:20:46,560 Speaker 1: my mom was on to put me to bed, and 333 00:20:46,600 --> 00:20:49,680 Speaker 1: she used to freak me out by doing this puppety 334 00:20:49,800 --> 00:20:52,400 Speaker 1: thing with her right hand. It was just a bare 335 00:20:52,480 --> 00:20:56,200 Speaker 1: hand like rings and everything, but her long brown fingers, 336 00:20:56,240 --> 00:20:59,680 Speaker 1: and her thumb would be pointed at me like a beak, 337 00:21:00,000 --> 00:21:03,639 Speaker 1: and she'd slowly advance this little creature towards me, and 338 00:21:03,720 --> 00:21:05,879 Speaker 1: every night I swore I wasn't gonna fall for it 339 00:21:05,960 --> 00:21:08,960 Speaker 1: this time, but then she'd start doing the voice, which 340 00:21:09,000 --> 00:21:16,320 Speaker 1: went he and I couldn't help it. Like all of 341 00:21:16,400 --> 00:21:20,240 Speaker 1: my attention turned towards this hand because it was alive. 342 00:21:20,760 --> 00:21:22,920 Speaker 1: It was getting closer to my face. And I can 343 00:21:23,000 --> 00:21:26,160 Speaker 1: still remember the shape of her bunched finger tips, which 344 00:21:26,200 --> 00:21:29,359 Speaker 1: seemed so clearly a snout, with her thumb as the 345 00:21:29,400 --> 00:21:32,480 Speaker 1: working jaw. And even now when I look at my 346 00:21:32,560 --> 00:21:36,480 Speaker 1: own hand in that position, the bedtime animal is resurrected 347 00:21:36,520 --> 00:21:39,959 Speaker 1: at the end of my own wrist. We can be 348 00:21:40,000 --> 00:21:43,240 Speaker 1: spooked by the features of our own design, even just 349 00:21:43,320 --> 00:21:46,280 Speaker 1: sensing our own bodies. If something goes wrong and we 350 00:21:46,320 --> 00:21:50,240 Speaker 1: can't differentiate what's happening inside from what's happening outside, the 351 00:21:50,280 --> 00:21:55,480 Speaker 1: results aren't just distressing. They could feel paranormal. And even 352 00:21:55,520 --> 00:21:58,240 Speaker 1: when our brains and bodies are humming along and working order, 353 00:21:58,880 --> 00:22:02,199 Speaker 1: we look for signs of life so vigilantly that we 354 00:22:02,280 --> 00:22:06,000 Speaker 1: perceived hidden agents in the rustling grass. We find faces 355 00:22:06,000 --> 00:22:09,280 Speaker 1: in our snack foods. Even when we were alone. We 356 00:22:09,359 --> 00:22:15,879 Speaker 1: see creatures everywhere, friends, foes, gods, or even just fingers 357 00:22:15,880 --> 00:22:39,240 Speaker 1: and thumbs. I think, well, at our next team meeting, 358 00:22:39,440 --> 00:22:42,720 Speaker 1: Deeply Human will be talking menopause. Why do both women 359 00:22:42,800 --> 00:22:46,159 Speaker 1: and whales go through it? Deeply Human is a co 360 00:22:46,280 --> 00:22:49,679 Speaker 1: production of the BBC World Service in American public media 361 00:22:49,760 --> 00:22:54,679 Speaker 1: with I Heart Media, and it's hosted by me, Tessa. Okay, buddy, 362 00:22:55,240 --> 00:23:01,640 Speaker 1: let's get you out of that chair. Huh h man 363 00:23:02,600 --> 00:23:04,520 Speaker 1: running through your own neighborhood with a microphone and you 364 00:23:04,560 --> 00:23:05,320 Speaker 1: freaks people out.