WEBVTT - Enabling Self Managed Abortion in Your Community 0:00:03.360 --> 0:00:06.280 Hey, everybody, this is Robert Evans and welcome once again too. 0:00:06.400 --> 0:00:09.160 It could happen here a podcast where we're talking about 0:00:09.200 --> 0:00:11.720 the fact that, you know, things are kind of falling apart, 0:00:11.760 --> 0:00:14.120 and we try to arm you with information to help 0:00:14.520 --> 0:00:18.119 deal with that. Um As I'm sure most of you 0:00:18.200 --> 0:00:21.480 are aware, one of the big news pieces that happened 0:00:21.760 --> 0:00:24.800 just about two days ago when as I'm recording this, 0:00:25.560 --> 0:00:28.520 is that the state of Texas finally rammed through a 0:00:28.560 --> 0:00:33.520 massive abortion restriction that essentially kind of their their goal 0:00:33.640 --> 0:00:35.800 and they've so far been successful. Inness was kind of 0:00:35.840 --> 0:00:41.680 looping around Roe v. Wade by essentially deputizing regular Texans 0:00:41.720 --> 0:00:46.920 to uh get ten dollar bounties on their their fellow 0:00:46.960 --> 0:00:51.760 citizens by reporting people who get abortions after six weeks um, 0:00:51.800 --> 0:00:54.640 in addition to kind of shutting down an illegal avenue 0:00:54.680 --> 0:00:57.640 to do that. So the Supreme Court has so far 0:00:57.720 --> 0:01:00.320 punted on taking any action on that, and it's it's 0:01:00.360 --> 0:01:03.160 a pretty desperate situation. There's now rumblings that Florida is 0:01:03.160 --> 0:01:05.600 going to try to do the same thing, and as 0:01:05.600 --> 0:01:11.520 a result, there's never been a more um important time 0:01:11.600 --> 0:01:14.520 to talk about the subject of today's episode, which is 0:01:14.560 --> 0:01:18.760 self managed abortion UM. And in order to talk about that, 0:01:19.160 --> 0:01:22.520 because I'm certainly no expert, we've got Susan Yano, who 0:01:22.560 --> 0:01:25.399 was a co founder of Women Help Women UH and 0:01:25.600 --> 0:01:29.640 Self Managed Abortion Safe and Supported UM. Susan, thank you 0:01:29.720 --> 0:01:31.360 very much for coming on the show and talking with 0:01:31.400 --> 0:01:34.880 me today. Sure, it's nice to be here. And UM. 0:01:34.920 --> 0:01:37.000 Maybe a place to start is to talk about what 0:01:37.120 --> 0:01:41.440 self managed abortion is. Yeah, because one of the things 0:01:41.520 --> 0:01:45.600 that is shocking, even though abortion pills have been allowed 0:01:45.600 --> 0:01:48.400 by the FDA in this country since two thousand, lots 0:01:48.400 --> 0:01:51.160 of people don't know that there are pills that essentially 0:01:51.160 --> 0:01:55.280 cause a miscarriage. They have been available in clinics since 0:01:55.280 --> 0:01:59.040 the year two thousand, but even more importantly, they've been 0:01:59.080 --> 0:02:03.720 available out side the clinics since the nineteen eighties, and 0:02:03.920 --> 0:02:06.680 people in other countries have been using them on their 0:02:06.720 --> 0:02:10.880 own safely and effectively, and increasingly over the last decade, 0:02:11.600 --> 0:02:14.480 people in this country have been using these exact same 0:02:14.520 --> 0:02:19.000 pills UM safely and effectively on their own. So I 0:02:19.080 --> 0:02:21.320 just want to be clear because people when they hear 0:02:21.360 --> 0:02:26.320 the words self managed abortion might flash on unsafe methods 0:02:26.360 --> 0:02:30.760 like sharp objects or herbs, which can be safe but 0:02:30.880 --> 0:02:36.079 can be unsafe but haven't really been scientifically documented. These 0:02:36.120 --> 0:02:40.320 pills have been studied more than almost any other medicine 0:02:40.320 --> 0:02:44.280 on the planet. And so we know from science that 0:02:45.080 --> 0:02:48.800 misaprostal with or without methoprista, that's the names of the 0:02:48.840 --> 0:02:54.240 pills UM causing a safe abortion. And you know, I 0:02:54.280 --> 0:02:56.880 was listening to an interview with you earlier today and 0:02:56.960 --> 0:02:58.600 you brought up something that I was unaware of, which 0:02:58.600 --> 0:03:00.680 is that these medicines kind of got their start being 0:03:00.760 --> 0:03:03.800 used for self managed abortion in Latin America, where abortion 0:03:03.880 --> 0:03:07.200 is legal, abortion at least is in many places just 0:03:07.320 --> 0:03:11.120 not available. UM and women it was this it was 0:03:11.160 --> 0:03:13.680 initially an ulcer drug. Am I remembering that correct. Misa 0:03:13.760 --> 0:03:18.280 Prostel was originally registered for ulcers. And it was women 0:03:18.280 --> 0:03:21.000 in Brazil who noticed that right on the pill container 0:03:21.080 --> 0:03:23.079 it said do not use if you're pregnant, could cause 0:03:23.120 --> 0:03:26.880 undine contractions. And as in every country in the world 0:03:26.919 --> 0:03:30.520 for generations, if people don't want to be pregnant, they 0:03:30.560 --> 0:03:33.000 try to figure out a way to add that pregnancy, 0:03:33.280 --> 0:03:38.240 regardless of the law. So women started experimenting with taking 0:03:38.280 --> 0:03:42.600 misa prostal. Ultimately, the World Health Organization has studied these 0:03:42.600 --> 0:03:46.480 pills and come up with the most recommended protocols, which 0:03:46.560 --> 0:03:50.760 people can find on our website abortion pill info dot 0:03:50.840 --> 0:03:54.440 org or in many many places in the Internet if 0:03:54.480 --> 0:03:58.320 they google the words and Lisa Prostal and abortion and 0:03:58.520 --> 0:04:01.440 you're you're going to sation doesn't provide the pills, but 0:04:01.520 --> 0:04:05.000 you do provide people information on how right the idea 0:04:05.040 --> 0:04:08.960 of sunds because there are restriction there are some legal 0:04:09.040 --> 0:04:11.440 risks in people in these pills on there on, even 0:04:11.440 --> 0:04:13.800 before this draccone in law in Texas which tries to 0:04:13.840 --> 0:04:18.479 criminalize everybody, um, but it is legal to share information 0:04:18.480 --> 0:04:21.840 that's published in scientific journals and by the world's health organization. 0:04:22.320 --> 0:04:26.240 So on the website abortion pill infot dot org are 0:04:26.320 --> 0:04:29.600 the protocols for how to use mice acrosto alone or 0:04:29.640 --> 0:04:32.960 in combination with metho christo, because it is a little 0:04:32.960 --> 0:04:36.320 more effective with when combined with methochristo, but the metho 0:04:36.360 --> 0:04:39.400 cristo is harder to get to get. And I you know, 0:04:39.480 --> 0:04:44.279 people I think are often frightened about just the idea 0:04:44.279 --> 0:04:46.440 of self managed abortion, in part because when people talk 0:04:46.480 --> 0:04:48.760 about the bad old days before Roe v. Wade, they're 0:04:48.760 --> 0:04:52.240 talking about something that I think people would think about 0:04:52.279 --> 0:04:54.400 when they hear self managed abortion, if they're not aware 0:04:54.400 --> 0:04:56.919 of kind of what it actually is. But one of 0:04:56.920 --> 0:04:58.800 the points you make that I think is so valid 0:04:58.839 --> 0:05:01.000 is that just a in its own like if you 0:05:01.040 --> 0:05:06.960 do nothing about pregnancies self terminate on their own, and 0:05:07.000 --> 0:05:09.279 this is what the pills are doing. It's nothing different 0:05:09.279 --> 0:05:10.960 than what happens if you just kind of have an 0:05:10.960 --> 0:05:15.480 embryo stop. Exactly. The pills caused the unse to contract 0:05:15.560 --> 0:05:18.720 and push out whatever is in there. Um. I think 0:05:18.800 --> 0:05:21.080 it's I think you raise a really important issue because 0:05:21.080 --> 0:05:25.800 there's two things. One is these abortion pills have been 0:05:25.839 --> 0:05:31.600 so tightly regulated and controlled by our medical um institutions 0:05:31.640 --> 0:05:33.679 that people aren't as familiar with them as they could 0:05:33.720 --> 0:05:35.599 and should be. I mean, these pills are so safe 0:05:35.600 --> 0:05:38.680 that they could be in people's medicine cabinets. Um. But 0:05:38.800 --> 0:05:42.359 in this country, sexuality is really restricted. We should have 0:05:42.440 --> 0:05:46.039 over the counter birth control pills that biled. So the 0:05:46.080 --> 0:05:48.599 first thing is I think is just to demystify these 0:05:48.600 --> 0:05:50.599 pills and to say that they're safe and effective. But 0:05:50.640 --> 0:05:54.119 the other is the stigma around abortion. Yeah, the anti 0:05:54.200 --> 0:05:57.600 abortion people have worked really hard to make people ashamed 0:05:57.720 --> 0:06:01.200 about their sexuality and ashamed about a pregnancy that they 0:06:01.240 --> 0:06:03.400 didn't want, as if people can do it all by 0:06:03.440 --> 0:06:06.520 themselves without somebody else being involved. And so this burden 0:06:06.600 --> 0:06:10.120 on women is they don't even they're so shamed that 0:06:10.279 --> 0:06:14.040 they have a lot of fear and stigma around, um, 0:06:14.080 --> 0:06:17.520 trying to get an abortion, even outside of Texas. But 0:06:17.560 --> 0:06:20.440 then you compound it with this fear that has been 0:06:20.520 --> 0:06:23.560 raised by the anti abortion people, all this misinformation, Oh 0:06:23.640 --> 0:06:26.440 these pills aren't saying, oh they could cause breast cancer, 0:06:26.839 --> 0:06:29.680 Oh they can impair future fertility, all of which has 0:06:29.720 --> 0:06:33.640 been debunked and is not true. But as we all know, 0:06:33.839 --> 0:06:38.520 misinformation has a long shelf life, a longer shelf life 0:06:38.520 --> 0:06:42.719 than the truth in a lot of cases. Exactly, I 0:06:42.800 --> 0:06:45.400 wanna talk a little bit about just kind of the 0:06:46.200 --> 0:06:49.040 facts about how this stuff functions. So particularly from IM 0:06:49.120 --> 0:06:51.000 we have a lot of listeners in Texas. I'm sure 0:06:51.080 --> 0:06:53.160 a decent number of the people listening right now are 0:06:53.360 --> 0:07:00.919 are very rightfully concerned. The present law essentially criminalizes uh 0:07:01.080 --> 0:07:05.720 medical abortion after six weeks um at what's how how 0:07:05.800 --> 0:07:08.640 late through do these pills work? Um? And then the 0:07:08.680 --> 0:07:11.920 second question I have is obviously a lot of women 0:07:11.960 --> 0:07:15.360 who get pregnant, don't realize they're pregnant for until after 0:07:15.440 --> 0:07:17.680 six weeks. It can take a while. So what options. 0:07:18.000 --> 0:07:20.720 I know you have some options to recommend for tracking 0:07:21.080 --> 0:07:23.360 uh that that that that are helpful as well an app. 0:07:24.400 --> 0:07:27.320 So the first thing I just want to say is UM, 0:07:27.360 --> 0:07:29.000 a lot of people don't know how to calculate the 0:07:29.040 --> 0:07:31.120 number of days of pregnancy, and they hear this term 0:07:31.280 --> 0:07:34.880 l MP last menstrual period. Basically, people can count from 0:07:34.920 --> 0:07:37.600 the first day of their last menstruation to figure out 0:07:37.600 --> 0:07:40.960 how pregnant they are. UM. We do have an app 0:07:41.000 --> 0:07:43.640 that I want to recommend called Yuki e u k 0:07:44.160 --> 0:07:48.400 I comes from the word eucalyptus, which is a menstrual tracker, 0:07:48.960 --> 0:07:52.360 but also has information about how to use contraception, how 0:07:52.400 --> 0:07:56.160 to use abortion pills. It is private and secure. UH. 0:07:56.200 --> 0:07:58.840 The the information is not available to anybody. It was 0:07:58.840 --> 0:08:02.600 not commercially developed, was developed by grants. So even we 0:08:02.640 --> 0:08:04.800 don't know other than how many people download it, we 0:08:04.800 --> 0:08:07.360 don't know how people are using it. So I really 0:08:07.480 --> 0:08:10.000 I think it's really important that people understand how their 0:08:10.000 --> 0:08:13.520 bodies work, understand how to figure out how pregnant they are, 0:08:13.880 --> 0:08:16.840 and then understand how to use these pills. You asked 0:08:16.840 --> 0:08:19.240 a really important question, which is how late can these 0:08:19.280 --> 0:08:23.360 pills be used? Um, The w h O has studied 0:08:23.480 --> 0:08:26.720 the use of these pills through twelve weeks, and there 0:08:26.840 --> 0:08:28.720 is a set of protocols for how to use them 0:08:28.720 --> 0:08:31.640 for twelve weeks and basically, with mice across alone, a 0:08:31.680 --> 0:08:35.480 person would need twelve tablets two hundred micrograms each. They 0:08:35.520 --> 0:08:38.400 would put four pills under their tongue, let them dissolve 0:08:38.440 --> 0:08:41.600 thirty minutes and then swallow, wait three hours to do 0:08:41.640 --> 0:08:44.840 it again, four pills under the tongue thirty minutes and 0:08:44.840 --> 0:08:49.160 then wait three hours and then use the last four pills. However, 0:08:49.200 --> 0:08:53.080 after twelve weeks, the pills can also be used to 0:08:53.200 --> 0:08:56.480 end up pregnancy. Mice acrostal can be used for labor induction. 0:08:57.400 --> 0:09:01.480 Counter Intuitively, however, the large longer the pregnancy, the less 0:09:01.480 --> 0:09:04.960 mice across them is needed, and a person doesn't want 0:09:04.960 --> 0:09:07.400 to take too much. Exactly, you and I probably think, oh, 0:09:07.480 --> 0:09:08.880 I have a headache, I'll take to ask for it. 0:09:08.920 --> 0:09:12.200 Oh it didn't go away, I'll take two. More counter intuitively, 0:09:12.280 --> 0:09:15.520 as the uterus stretches with pregnancy, it's more sensitive to 0:09:15.559 --> 0:09:18.720 mines approsto and actually can be dangerous to use as 0:09:18.800 --> 0:09:20.880 much as one would use in the first twelve weeks. 0:09:21.800 --> 0:09:24.720 Anybody who wants to learn more can either go on 0:09:24.760 --> 0:09:28.280 the website abortion pill info dot org or use that 0:09:28.360 --> 0:09:31.920 website and contact skilled counselors from Women Help Women who 0:09:31.960 --> 0:09:36.000 are based overseas, who answer over twelve thousand emails a 0:09:36.040 --> 0:09:39.160 month about how to use these pills, and they will 0:09:39.160 --> 0:09:41.800 counsel people regardless of the number they need to know, 0:09:41.840 --> 0:09:44.800 how many weeks pregnancies they will they will adapt the 0:09:44.880 --> 0:09:49.400 information to that situation. But most people in this country 0:09:49.400 --> 0:09:52.360 who have gone to clinics for abortion do it in 0:09:52.400 --> 0:09:55.079 the first nine or ten weeks, and these pills are 0:09:55.120 --> 0:09:58.120 extremely safe and effective to use with these w H 0:09:58.320 --> 0:10:01.760 protocols up to twelve weeks. So while you're correct that 0:10:01.800 --> 0:10:04.439 most people don't know they're pregnant at six weeks, they 0:10:04.600 --> 0:10:08.960 at the time they're they've missed a period usually and 0:10:09.000 --> 0:10:12.000 they're they've taken a pregnancy test, and the urin pregnancy 0:10:12.040 --> 0:10:14.800 test that people buy in the dollar store over the 0:10:14.960 --> 0:10:29.800 pharmacy are pretty are pretty accurate. Yeah, you brought up something, 0:10:29.800 --> 0:10:33.120 which is that who have these people who can help 0:10:33.640 --> 0:10:36.880 provide advice and their overseas, and you you kind of 0:10:36.920 --> 0:10:38.920 specify that every time I see you, I hear you 0:10:38.960 --> 0:10:41.680 talk about it, and you also specify the degree of 0:10:41.760 --> 0:10:46.240 security um which you which you put on these conversations UM. 0:10:46.240 --> 0:10:50.120 And it's a degree that I think is uncommon for 0:10:50.160 --> 0:10:52.360 what should be a pretty basic medical procedure. And it's 0:10:52.400 --> 0:10:56.320 obviously because of there's potential consequences here. I'm interested in 0:10:56.440 --> 0:10:59.920 kind of what are some of the present legal consequence 0:11:00.040 --> 0:11:01.640 is and what are some of your worries when you 0:11:01.679 --> 0:11:04.760 adopt these very stringent security measures for people who come 0:11:04.760 --> 0:11:08.680 to you. So let's leave Texas aside. Prior to the 0:11:08.800 --> 0:11:13.280 Texas law, approximately twenty four people in the United States 0:11:13.280 --> 0:11:18.520 have been prosecuted for using abortion pills without a clinician involved, 0:11:18.559 --> 0:11:21.880 in other words, for self managing their abortion UM. It's 0:11:21.880 --> 0:11:24.520 important to say most of the people who were prosecuted 0:11:24.559 --> 0:11:30.400 were not ultimately convicted, but somewhere because many states criminalize 0:11:30.640 --> 0:11:34.200 the use of these pills without a clinician involved. That 0:11:34.360 --> 0:11:38.240 being said, thousands and thousands of thousands of people are 0:11:38.320 --> 0:11:42.680 obtaining mys acostal or mio cristal plus myz acrostal in 0:11:42.720 --> 0:11:46.000 the United States. We have some websites where that actually 0:11:46.040 --> 0:11:49.599 share the number of pills that they're sending into the US. 0:11:49.760 --> 0:11:53.680 And we also know about my acrostal sales um going 0:11:53.760 --> 0:11:56.520 way up in the countries where it is available of 0:11:56.559 --> 0:11:59.640 an encounter, so there's no doubt. And also people have 0:11:59.640 --> 0:12:02.280 shared their stories, so there that twenty four is a 0:12:02.320 --> 0:12:06.120 tiny percentage of all the people who have been who 0:12:06.120 --> 0:12:10.360 have used these pills. However, these pills are safe and 0:12:10.360 --> 0:12:13.959 effective and nobody should have legal risk in using them. Therefore, 0:12:14.000 --> 0:12:16.600 when we set up SASS, which is self managed abortion, 0:12:16.679 --> 0:12:19.360 safe and supported and it's a project of this international 0:12:19.480 --> 0:12:22.480 organization Women Help Women, we were very aware that in 0:12:22.520 --> 0:12:25.760 the U s there's a lot of surveillance of people's bodies, 0:12:26.360 --> 0:12:31.400 there's a lot of potential to pack into people's emails. 0:12:31.440 --> 0:12:34.160 So we set up a very secure system where people 0:12:34.240 --> 0:12:38.319 can email our overseas counselors UM on a very secure 0:12:38.360 --> 0:12:42.920 server and get back a an answer that will disappear 0:12:43.040 --> 0:12:45.959 within seven days, so there's no evidence in their phone 0:12:46.040 --> 0:12:49.240 or electronic device that they ever sent this email. We 0:12:49.360 --> 0:12:52.320 just thought, you know, it's an extra step. Um. Most 0:12:52.360 --> 0:12:54.800 people probably aren't even aware they're going through a secure site, 0:12:54.840 --> 0:12:57.000 but we want to make sure that nobody who who 0:12:57.200 --> 0:13:01.920 contacts us can ever be prosecuted. Yeah, and it's I mean, 0:13:02.000 --> 0:13:04.439 it seems like you're were especially given the nature of 0:13:04.440 --> 0:13:07.160 the Texas law, you're worried about vigilantes as much as anything, 0:13:07.200 --> 0:13:10.040 not necessarily even the state, but but you know, the 0:13:10.360 --> 0:13:12.760 kind of people who show up outside of planned parenthoods 0:13:12.760 --> 0:13:16.000 with guns. The good thing about an international organization running 0:13:16.000 --> 0:13:18.120 this is none of the people answering the email are 0:13:18.160 --> 0:13:22.120 in the US. Yeah, pretty difficult for these Texas vigilantes 0:13:22.200 --> 0:13:26.120 or frankly anybody else to file a lawsuit. First of all, 0:13:26.240 --> 0:13:29.160 it's all anonymized. They don't we don't. Women Help Them 0:13:29.240 --> 0:13:32.720 doesn't advertise who our staff are, and none, none of 0:13:32.720 --> 0:13:36.360 them are in this country. I mean, that's very smart. 0:13:36.720 --> 0:13:38.679 When did when was it set up this way? Like 0:13:38.840 --> 0:13:41.319 how long ago were you kind of thinking about the direction, 0:13:41.400 --> 0:13:45.400 because it seems like you you had a pretty blunt 0:13:45.600 --> 0:13:48.920 understanding of where things were headed. So Women Help Women 0:13:48.960 --> 0:13:52.280 was founded in and we work in eighty two countries. 0:13:52.679 --> 0:13:55.440 We work in countries like the Philippines where any kind 0:13:55.480 --> 0:14:00.280 of drug deal dealer has been called. Yeah, work in 0:14:00.400 --> 0:14:03.800 Poland where abortion is not legal. In anywhere in the country. 0:14:04.160 --> 0:14:08.440 We work in many places in Latin America where abortion 0:14:08.480 --> 0:14:11.480 is highly criminalized, so we had security set up from 0:14:11.559 --> 0:14:15.960 the beginning. It was actually shortly after the election of 0:14:16.400 --> 0:14:19.800 h I'll call him Orange forty five because I've sworn 0:14:19.880 --> 0:14:23.040 that this our ex president's name, will never cross my lips. 0:14:23.640 --> 0:14:26.200 Uh from Poland said, you know, we used to have 0:14:26.280 --> 0:14:28.360 legal abortion and we lost it, and you're gonna lose 0:14:28.400 --> 0:14:31.160 it too. People in the US better, you know, we 0:14:31.200 --> 0:14:33.720 should do something for people in the United States, and 0:14:33.800 --> 0:14:37.400 that's why so SAS was founded shortly after the inauguration 0:14:38.080 --> 0:14:41.640 of the last president and has been in place ever since. 0:14:42.240 --> 0:14:44.320 A lot of our work is not just the website 0:14:44.320 --> 0:14:47.920 and answering, it's really raising the awareness of our colleagues. 0:14:48.000 --> 0:14:51.200 We also before COVID went into communities. Now we do 0:14:51.240 --> 0:14:53.920 it for via Zoo. We actually do three hour trainings 0:14:53.960 --> 0:14:56.120 to teach people how to use these medicines and how 0:14:56.160 --> 0:15:02.080 to teach others' we uh, you know, we have manual Spanish. 0:15:02.440 --> 0:15:05.240 We have people doing these trainings all over the US 0:15:06.040 --> 0:15:09.000 UM and have reached thousands of people directly with this 0:15:09.120 --> 0:15:14.920 information UM sort of prophylactically with the belief that it 0:15:14.960 --> 0:15:17.520 shouldn't be when a person is pregnant that they understand 0:15:17.520 --> 0:15:21.400 how these pills work. This is basic information that gotten 0:15:21.480 --> 0:15:24.240 in high school. It's like knowing how to put on 0:15:24.280 --> 0:15:26.320 a tourniquet or something. It should be part of your 0:15:26.320 --> 0:15:28.080 first stage. How do you when to put on a 0:15:28.120 --> 0:15:31.480 band aid and when to take an aspirint? You know, 0:15:32.000 --> 0:15:35.400 how do you treat a cold? So the knowledge about 0:15:35.440 --> 0:15:38.960 these pills, we've worked very hard to make it very accessible. 0:15:39.480 --> 0:15:41.600 We actually have load we you know, we've done these 0:15:41.600 --> 0:15:43.800 trainings and countries where there's not a lot of literacy, 0:15:44.320 --> 0:15:47.160 so with graphics, we have videos. We have lots of 0:15:47.160 --> 0:15:50.120 ways to teach. Many aren't appropriate for the u S 0:15:50.160 --> 0:15:54.240 where there's more literacy but sometimes less understanding about how 0:15:54.280 --> 0:15:57.520 bodies work. So um. So our goal has been to 0:15:57.720 --> 0:15:59.800 you know, we also go to professional conferences and so 0:16:00.160 --> 0:16:03.640 channels and try to raise awareness within the reproductive rights 0:16:03.640 --> 0:16:06.880 and reproductive justice movement about the importance of self managed 0:16:06.920 --> 0:16:11.280 abortion as an intol of empowerment and breaking stigma. Not 0:16:11.560 --> 0:16:14.000 as hey, if you can't get to a clinic, tribes, 0:16:14.120 --> 0:16:17.160 but why why is this option not available to me? 0:16:17.240 --> 0:16:19.840 In a state of Massachusetts where I live where there's 0:16:19.840 --> 0:16:22.760 plenty of clinics, But why can't I just walk down 0:16:22.760 --> 0:16:24.800 to the to the Walgreens and get these pills if 0:16:24.800 --> 0:16:28.240 a doctor tells me it's okay, or without a doctor, Yeah, 0:16:28.240 --> 0:16:32.160 they're so safe. So we've really, we really advocate for 0:16:32.200 --> 0:16:36.440 self managed abortion as a viable option. UM. It should 0:16:36.440 --> 0:16:39.760 be viable regardless of the law. Obviously for many people 0:16:39.800 --> 0:16:43.880 it's the only option in places like Texas. UM. But 0:16:44.120 --> 0:16:46.560 it's as good, it's a better. Some people don't want 0:16:46.600 --> 0:16:49.200 to go see a clinician. Yeah, they don't want to 0:16:49.240 --> 0:16:50.960 go through a bunch of protesters. They would just like 0:16:51.000 --> 0:16:53.800 to get a package in the mail with their medicines. Yeah, 0:16:53.960 --> 0:16:57.240 I mean it's and that's I mean, there's there's both 0:16:57.280 --> 0:17:00.760 the the tool of an immediate need that there's there's 0:17:00.800 --> 0:17:03.360 desperate people who need access to this, but it's also 0:17:03.880 --> 0:17:07.280 in a broader sense, like building power within individuals and 0:17:07.320 --> 0:17:10.199 within communities to manage their own reproductive healthcare, which I 0:17:10.200 --> 0:17:13.160 think is really important exactly. And there are people who 0:17:13.240 --> 0:17:15.199 could get to a clinic and have them needs to 0:17:15.200 --> 0:17:16.960 go to a clinic, who are opting not to go 0:17:17.040 --> 0:17:20.280 to a clinic. And two because they feel confident in 0:17:20.320 --> 0:17:25.359 their ability to take these pills as directed to manage it. 0:17:25.560 --> 0:17:27.399 And I just want to say, we started this conversation 0:17:27.440 --> 0:17:30.840 with talking about of all praises end in a miscarriage. 0:17:31.080 --> 0:17:34.240 Most people have a miscarriage don't get medical care. Yeah, 0:17:34.520 --> 0:17:37.760 they can manage the bleeding and they know when it's 0:17:37.800 --> 0:17:40.600 over and they know that fine, which I think is 0:17:40.600 --> 0:17:43.120 an important point because I know people who have had 0:17:43.720 --> 0:17:46.760 very difficult miscarriages, but that's not most of the most 0:17:46.800 --> 0:17:49.640 of them are are mild enough that yeah, like you said, 0:17:49.680 --> 0:17:52.800 you don't need medical care. Well, I just so, I 0:17:52.880 --> 0:17:56.119 just want to be clear. You know, using the abortion 0:17:56.160 --> 0:17:59.840 pills does cause cramping and bleeding, but it is not 0:18:00.280 --> 0:18:02.960 so far out of most people with the uterus is 0:18:03.040 --> 0:18:06.800 experience to have cramping and bleeding every month. This is 0:18:06.840 --> 0:18:09.960 heavier cramping, heavier bleeding, but we we know how to 0:18:10.000 --> 0:18:23.400 deal with this. Another point you make that I think 0:18:23.480 --> 0:18:26.440 is really important is that you know, with any medication, 0:18:26.480 --> 0:18:28.840 there's a chance it will be used wrong or it'll 0:18:28.920 --> 0:18:31.159 have an expected effect. If you have to if you 0:18:31.200 --> 0:18:33.040 take this stuff and you have to go to the doctor, 0:18:33.520 --> 0:18:35.520 you don't need to tell the doctor. This is what 0:18:35.680 --> 0:18:38.879 I've taken you you like, could you talk to that 0:18:38.920 --> 0:18:40.919 about a little bit how someone would if they needed 0:18:40.960 --> 0:18:42.920 to go to the doctor as a result of an 0:18:42.920 --> 0:18:45.720 interaction or something, what they would would be best to say. 0:18:46.200 --> 0:18:48.600 There are two kinds of complications that can happen in 0:18:48.880 --> 0:18:51.320 very very rare cases. The person can bleed too much, 0:18:51.400 --> 0:18:54.679 have a hemorrhage, and they absolutely mean medical care. The 0:18:54.760 --> 0:18:57.240 chance of a hemorrhage with these pills is exactly the 0:18:57.280 --> 0:18:59.000 same as the has a chance of the hemorrhage with 0:18:59.040 --> 0:19:02.720 a natural miscare. So it happens. Doctors in every e 0:19:02.880 --> 0:19:05.439 r know how to treat it. The other complication that 0:19:05.440 --> 0:19:08.160 can happen is in infection. You know, there's some retained 0:19:08.200 --> 0:19:12.320 tissue and the bleeding continues and they need to get antibiotics. 0:19:13.440 --> 0:19:16.600 So what's really interesting about these pills is they move 0:19:16.680 --> 0:19:20.240 through the body relatively quickly and there is no test 0:19:20.280 --> 0:19:22.840 of blood or urine for them as long as the person, 0:19:22.960 --> 0:19:25.239 especially if the person followed the directions and use them 0:19:25.280 --> 0:19:28.080 under the tongue or in the cheeks, they've gone through 0:19:28.080 --> 0:19:33.199 the stomach, they're gone. Yeah. In some directions say to 0:19:33.320 --> 0:19:36.960 use the MISA prostal vaginally. The problem with that is 0:19:37.000 --> 0:19:39.720 the inert substances, and the pills could stay in the 0:19:39.760 --> 0:19:42.120 vagina for up to three days, and then there's evidence, 0:19:42.400 --> 0:19:44.439 right because the doctor could see the crumbs if they 0:19:44.440 --> 0:19:46.879 do a pelvic exam. But as long as the person 0:19:47.000 --> 0:19:51.040 used the pills, either used the mice aprostal one swallows 0:19:51.040 --> 0:19:54.199 the mephopristom, as long as they use it in the 0:19:54.280 --> 0:19:57.000 and that's absorbed through the mouth, there are no tests. 0:19:57.000 --> 0:19:59.359 So the person can say I'm bleeding and I don't 0:19:59.359 --> 0:20:01.520 know why, which, by the way, many people with a 0:20:01.600 --> 0:20:05.520 miscaracter now they were pregnant. Happens all the time, or 0:20:05.640 --> 0:20:07.800 they could say I was pregnant and I think I'm 0:20:07.800 --> 0:20:11.320 having a miscarriage. Yeah, we are really trying to work 0:20:11.359 --> 0:20:15.520 with some professional groups to increase awareness that people shouldn't 0:20:15.520 --> 0:20:20.360 be vigilanties, healthcare providers should not be vigilanties. But the 0:20:20.400 --> 0:20:22.280 only way a person is going to get in trouble 0:20:22.359 --> 0:20:25.439 is if they say they use the medicines. Even if 0:20:25.480 --> 0:20:28.240 the doctor says, did you use the medicines, there is 0:20:28.280 --> 0:20:31.520 no reason to say it. The treatment is exactly the 0:20:31.520 --> 0:20:35.119 same as for a natural miscarriage. I wanted to ask 0:20:35.240 --> 0:20:39.480 kind of how listeners, particularly listeners who you know may 0:20:39.520 --> 0:20:44.040 not personally need this medicine but may want to support 0:20:44.080 --> 0:20:46.120 what you're doing, or may need the medicine and still 0:20:46.119 --> 0:20:48.159 want to support what you're doing. Are there ways in 0:20:48.160 --> 0:20:51.280 which people can either financially or otherwise help support y'all? 0:20:51.640 --> 0:20:55.200 Absolutely again. Abortion pill info dot Org is our website. 0:20:55.240 --> 0:20:57.439 There's a whole section of what people can do. They 0:20:57.480 --> 0:20:59.920 can they can learn about these pills and tell other people. 0:21:00.440 --> 0:21:03.120 They can get stickers to let people know they exist. 0:21:03.160 --> 0:21:06.160 Because remember, most people don't know there are abortion pills, 0:21:06.200 --> 0:21:07.320 so they don't even know how to look on the 0:21:07.320 --> 0:21:12.439 internet for this thing, you know, so sharing information is 0:21:12.560 --> 0:21:16.879 really important. There's also a donation button there, but the 0:21:16.920 --> 0:21:20.000 biggest thing that people can do in this moment, apart 0:21:20.080 --> 0:21:24.640 from donating, is to educate themselves. They can either sign 0:21:24.680 --> 0:21:26.840 up to take one of our trainings and become a 0:21:27.119 --> 0:21:30.159 We call them trainers, but it's really information sharing. You know, 0:21:30.280 --> 0:21:32.280 you and I have just talked about these pills. You 0:21:32.359 --> 0:21:34.240 understand them more than you did half an hour ago. 0:21:35.160 --> 0:21:37.680 Training a little too formal of a term for what 0:21:37.720 --> 0:21:41.040 we do, but afterwards people will understand these pills very 0:21:41.040 --> 0:21:43.560 well and be able to support others who either want 0:21:43.560 --> 0:21:47.480 to know about them or are using them. And the 0:21:47.560 --> 0:21:49.440 last thing I'd kind of like to ask you, if 0:21:49.440 --> 0:21:53.000 you don't mind sharing, is how did you get into 0:21:53.040 --> 0:21:56.480 this personally? Like what brought you into this line of 0:21:56.600 --> 0:22:01.240 good question. So I've been doing abortion access work since 0:22:01.280 --> 0:22:04.600 the eighties. UM. I was involved in the big demonstrations 0:22:05.000 --> 0:22:08.359 in front of the clinics, etcetera. But I've also spent 0:22:08.400 --> 0:22:10.520 a lot of time in Mexico where these pills are 0:22:10.560 --> 0:22:14.119 over the counter and no, And it wasn't until and 0:22:14.160 --> 0:22:16.600 I'm a little embarrassed to say this, but it wasn't 0:22:16.640 --> 0:22:19.159 until about fifteen years ago that it's suddenly occurred to me, 0:22:19.200 --> 0:22:22.080 Wait a second, I wonder why people in the US 0:22:22.119 --> 0:22:26.199 aren't doing what what people in Mexico are doing. I'm just, 0:22:26.400 --> 0:22:28.760 you know, it just it's like I was crossing the border, 0:22:28.800 --> 0:22:33.720