1 00:00:03,360 --> 00:00:06,280 Speaker 1: Hey, everybody, this is Robert Evans and welcome once again too. 2 00:00:06,400 --> 00:00:09,160 Speaker 1: It could happen here a podcast where we're talking about 3 00:00:09,200 --> 00:00:11,720 Speaker 1: the fact that, you know, things are kind of falling apart, 4 00:00:11,760 --> 00:00:14,120 Speaker 1: and we try to arm you with information to help 5 00:00:14,520 --> 00:00:18,119 Speaker 1: deal with that. Um As I'm sure most of you 6 00:00:18,200 --> 00:00:21,480 Speaker 1: are aware, one of the big news pieces that happened 7 00:00:21,760 --> 00:00:24,800 Speaker 1: just about two days ago when as I'm recording this, 8 00:00:25,560 --> 00:00:28,520 Speaker 1: is that the state of Texas finally rammed through a 9 00:00:28,560 --> 00:00:33,520 Speaker 1: massive abortion restriction that essentially kind of their their goal 10 00:00:33,640 --> 00:00:35,800 Speaker 1: and they've so far been successful. Inness was kind of 11 00:00:35,840 --> 00:00:41,680 Speaker 1: looping around Roe v. Wade by essentially deputizing regular Texans 12 00:00:41,720 --> 00:00:46,920 Speaker 1: to uh get ten dollar bounties on their their fellow 13 00:00:46,960 --> 00:00:51,760 Speaker 1: citizens by reporting people who get abortions after six weeks um, 14 00:00:51,800 --> 00:00:54,640 Speaker 1: in addition to kind of shutting down an illegal avenue 15 00:00:54,680 --> 00:00:57,640 Speaker 1: to do that. So the Supreme Court has so far 16 00:00:57,720 --> 00:01:00,320 Speaker 1: punted on taking any action on that, and it's it's 17 00:01:00,360 --> 00:01:03,160 Speaker 1: a pretty desperate situation. There's now rumblings that Florida is 18 00:01:03,160 --> 00:01:05,600 Speaker 1: going to try to do the same thing, and as 19 00:01:05,600 --> 00:01:11,520 Speaker 1: a result, there's never been a more um important time 20 00:01:11,600 --> 00:01:14,520 Speaker 1: to talk about the subject of today's episode, which is 21 00:01:14,560 --> 00:01:18,760 Speaker 1: self managed abortion UM. And in order to talk about that, 22 00:01:19,160 --> 00:01:22,520 Speaker 1: because I'm certainly no expert, we've got Susan Yano, who 23 00:01:22,560 --> 00:01:25,399 Speaker 1: was a co founder of Women Help Women UH and 24 00:01:25,600 --> 00:01:29,640 Speaker 1: Self Managed Abortion Safe and Supported UM. Susan, thank you 25 00:01:29,720 --> 00:01:31,360 Speaker 1: very much for coming on the show and talking with 26 00:01:31,400 --> 00:01:34,880 Speaker 1: me today. Sure, it's nice to be here. And UM. 27 00:01:34,920 --> 00:01:37,000 Speaker 1: Maybe a place to start is to talk about what 28 00:01:37,120 --> 00:01:41,440 Speaker 1: self managed abortion is. Yeah, because one of the things 29 00:01:41,520 --> 00:01:45,600 Speaker 1: that is shocking, even though abortion pills have been allowed 30 00:01:45,600 --> 00:01:48,400 Speaker 1: by the FDA in this country since two thousand, lots 31 00:01:48,400 --> 00:01:51,160 Speaker 1: of people don't know that there are pills that essentially 32 00:01:51,160 --> 00:01:55,280 Speaker 1: cause a miscarriage. They have been available in clinics since 33 00:01:55,280 --> 00:01:59,040 Speaker 1: the year two thousand, but even more importantly, they've been 34 00:01:59,080 --> 00:02:03,720 Speaker 1: available out side the clinics since the nineteen eighties, and 35 00:02:03,920 --> 00:02:06,680 Speaker 1: people in other countries have been using them on their 36 00:02:06,720 --> 00:02:10,880 Speaker 1: own safely and effectively, and increasingly over the last decade, 37 00:02:11,600 --> 00:02:14,480 Speaker 1: people in this country have been using these exact same 38 00:02:14,520 --> 00:02:19,000 Speaker 1: pills UM safely and effectively on their own. So I 39 00:02:19,080 --> 00:02:21,320 Speaker 1: just want to be clear because people when they hear 40 00:02:21,360 --> 00:02:26,320 Speaker 1: the words self managed abortion might flash on unsafe methods 41 00:02:26,360 --> 00:02:30,760 Speaker 1: like sharp objects or herbs, which can be safe but 42 00:02:30,880 --> 00:02:36,079 Speaker 1: can be unsafe but haven't really been scientifically documented. These 43 00:02:36,120 --> 00:02:40,320 Speaker 1: pills have been studied more than almost any other medicine 44 00:02:40,320 --> 00:02:44,280 Speaker 1: on the planet. And so we know from science that 45 00:02:45,080 --> 00:02:48,800 Speaker 1: misaprostal with or without methoprista, that's the names of the 46 00:02:48,840 --> 00:02:54,240 Speaker 1: pills UM causing a safe abortion. And you know, I 47 00:02:54,280 --> 00:02:56,880 Speaker 1: was listening to an interview with you earlier today and 48 00:02:56,960 --> 00:02:58,600 Speaker 1: you brought up something that I was unaware of, which 49 00:02:58,600 --> 00:03:00,680 Speaker 1: is that these medicines kind of got their start being 50 00:03:00,760 --> 00:03:03,800 Speaker 1: used for self managed abortion in Latin America, where abortion 51 00:03:03,880 --> 00:03:07,200 Speaker 1: is legal, abortion at least is in many places just 52 00:03:07,320 --> 00:03:11,120 Speaker 1: not available. UM and women it was this it was 53 00:03:11,160 --> 00:03:13,680 Speaker 1: initially an ulcer drug. Am I remembering that correct. Misa 54 00:03:13,760 --> 00:03:18,280 Speaker 1: Prostel was originally registered for ulcers. And it was women 55 00:03:18,280 --> 00:03:21,000 Speaker 1: in Brazil who noticed that right on the pill container 56 00:03:21,080 --> 00:03:23,079 Speaker 1: it said do not use if you're pregnant, could cause 57 00:03:23,120 --> 00:03:26,880 Speaker 1: undine contractions. And as in every country in the world 58 00:03:26,919 --> 00:03:30,520 Speaker 1: for generations, if people don't want to be pregnant, they 59 00:03:30,560 --> 00:03:33,000 Speaker 1: try to figure out a way to add that pregnancy, 60 00:03:33,280 --> 00:03:38,240 Speaker 1: regardless of the law. So women started experimenting with taking 61 00:03:38,280 --> 00:03:42,600 Speaker 1: misa prostal. Ultimately, the World Health Organization has studied these 62 00:03:42,600 --> 00:03:46,480 Speaker 1: pills and come up with the most recommended protocols, which 63 00:03:46,560 --> 00:03:50,760 Speaker 1: people can find on our website abortion pill info dot 64 00:03:50,840 --> 00:03:54,440 Speaker 1: org or in many many places in the Internet if 65 00:03:54,480 --> 00:03:58,320 Speaker 1: they google the words and Lisa Prostal and abortion and 66 00:03:58,520 --> 00:04:01,440 Speaker 1: you're you're going to sation doesn't provide the pills, but 67 00:04:01,520 --> 00:04:05,000 Speaker 1: you do provide people information on how right the idea 68 00:04:05,040 --> 00:04:08,960 Speaker 1: of sunds because there are restriction there are some legal 69 00:04:09,040 --> 00:04:11,440 Speaker 1: risks in people in these pills on there on, even 70 00:04:11,440 --> 00:04:13,800 Speaker 1: before this draccone in law in Texas which tries to 71 00:04:13,840 --> 00:04:18,479 Speaker 1: criminalize everybody, um, but it is legal to share information 72 00:04:18,480 --> 00:04:21,840 Speaker 1: that's published in scientific journals and by the world's health organization. 73 00:04:22,320 --> 00:04:26,240 Speaker 1: So on the website abortion pill infot dot org are 74 00:04:26,320 --> 00:04:29,600 Speaker 1: the protocols for how to use mice acrosto alone or 75 00:04:29,640 --> 00:04:32,960 Speaker 1: in combination with metho christo, because it is a little 76 00:04:32,960 --> 00:04:36,320 Speaker 1: more effective with when combined with methochristo, but the metho 77 00:04:36,360 --> 00:04:39,400 Speaker 1: cristo is harder to get to get. And I you know, 78 00:04:39,480 --> 00:04:44,279 Speaker 1: people I think are often frightened about just the idea 79 00:04:44,279 --> 00:04:46,440 Speaker 1: of self managed abortion, in part because when people talk 80 00:04:46,480 --> 00:04:48,760 Speaker 1: about the bad old days before Roe v. Wade, they're 81 00:04:48,760 --> 00:04:52,240 Speaker 1: talking about something that I think people would think about 82 00:04:52,279 --> 00:04:54,400 Speaker 1: when they hear self managed abortion, if they're not aware 83 00:04:54,400 --> 00:04:56,919 Speaker 1: of kind of what it actually is. But one of 84 00:04:56,920 --> 00:04:58,800 Speaker 1: the points you make that I think is so valid 85 00:04:58,839 --> 00:05:01,000 Speaker 1: is that just a in its own like if you 86 00:05:01,040 --> 00:05:06,960 Speaker 1: do nothing about pregnancies self terminate on their own, and 87 00:05:07,000 --> 00:05:09,279 Speaker 1: this is what the pills are doing. It's nothing different 88 00:05:09,279 --> 00:05:10,960 Speaker 1: than what happens if you just kind of have an 89 00:05:10,960 --> 00:05:15,480 Speaker 1: embryo stop. Exactly. The pills caused the unse to contract 90 00:05:15,560 --> 00:05:18,720 Speaker 1: and push out whatever is in there. Um. I think 91 00:05:18,800 --> 00:05:21,080 Speaker 1: it's I think you raise a really important issue because 92 00:05:21,080 --> 00:05:25,800 Speaker 1: there's two things. One is these abortion pills have been 93 00:05:25,839 --> 00:05:31,600 Speaker 1: so tightly regulated and controlled by our medical um institutions 94 00:05:31,640 --> 00:05:33,679 Speaker 1: that people aren't as familiar with them as they could 95 00:05:33,720 --> 00:05:35,599 Speaker 1: and should be. I mean, these pills are so safe 96 00:05:35,600 --> 00:05:38,680 Speaker 1: that they could be in people's medicine cabinets. Um. But 97 00:05:38,800 --> 00:05:42,359 Speaker 1: in this country, sexuality is really restricted. We should have 98 00:05:42,440 --> 00:05:46,039 Speaker 1: over the counter birth control pills that biled. So the 99 00:05:46,080 --> 00:05:48,599 Speaker 1: first thing is I think is just to demystify these 100 00:05:48,600 --> 00:05:50,599 Speaker 1: pills and to say that they're safe and effective. But 101 00:05:50,640 --> 00:05:54,119 Speaker 1: the other is the stigma around abortion. Yeah, the anti 102 00:05:54,200 --> 00:05:57,600 Speaker 1: abortion people have worked really hard to make people ashamed 103 00:05:57,720 --> 00:06:01,200 Speaker 1: about their sexuality and ashamed about a pregnancy that they 104 00:06:01,240 --> 00:06:03,400 Speaker 1: didn't want, as if people can do it all by 105 00:06:03,440 --> 00:06:06,520 Speaker 1: themselves without somebody else being involved. And so this burden 106 00:06:06,600 --> 00:06:10,120 Speaker 1: on women is they don't even they're so shamed that 107 00:06:10,279 --> 00:06:14,040 Speaker 1: they have a lot of fear and stigma around, um, 108 00:06:14,080 --> 00:06:17,520 Speaker 1: trying to get an abortion, even outside of Texas. But 109 00:06:17,560 --> 00:06:20,440 Speaker 1: then you compound it with this fear that has been 110 00:06:20,520 --> 00:06:23,560 Speaker 1: raised by the anti abortion people, all this misinformation, Oh 111 00:06:23,640 --> 00:06:26,440 Speaker 1: these pills aren't saying, oh they could cause breast cancer, 112 00:06:26,839 --> 00:06:29,680 Speaker 1: Oh they can impair future fertility, all of which has 113 00:06:29,720 --> 00:06:33,640 Speaker 1: been debunked and is not true. But as we all know, 114 00:06:33,839 --> 00:06:38,520 Speaker 1: misinformation has a long shelf life, a longer shelf life 115 00:06:38,520 --> 00:06:42,719 Speaker 1: than the truth in a lot of cases. Exactly, I 116 00:06:42,800 --> 00:06:45,400 Speaker 1: wanna talk a little bit about just kind of the 117 00:06:46,200 --> 00:06:49,040 Speaker 1: facts about how this stuff functions. So particularly from IM 118 00:06:49,120 --> 00:06:51,000 Speaker 1: we have a lot of listeners in Texas. I'm sure 119 00:06:51,080 --> 00:06:53,160 Speaker 1: a decent number of the people listening right now are 120 00:06:53,360 --> 00:07:00,919 Speaker 1: are very rightfully concerned. The present law essentially criminalizes uh 121 00:07:01,080 --> 00:07:05,720 Speaker 1: medical abortion after six weeks um at what's how how 122 00:07:05,800 --> 00:07:08,640 Speaker 1: late through do these pills work? Um? And then the 123 00:07:08,680 --> 00:07:11,920 Speaker 1: second question I have is obviously a lot of women 124 00:07:11,960 --> 00:07:15,360 Speaker 1: who get pregnant, don't realize they're pregnant for until after 125 00:07:15,440 --> 00:07:17,680 Speaker 1: six weeks. It can take a while. So what options. 126 00:07:18,000 --> 00:07:20,720 Speaker 1: I know you have some options to recommend for tracking 127 00:07:21,080 --> 00:07:23,360 Speaker 1: uh that that that that are helpful as well an app. 128 00:07:24,400 --> 00:07:27,320 Speaker 1: So the first thing I just want to say is UM, 129 00:07:27,360 --> 00:07:29,000 Speaker 1: a lot of people don't know how to calculate the 130 00:07:29,040 --> 00:07:31,120 Speaker 1: number of days of pregnancy, and they hear this term 131 00:07:31,280 --> 00:07:34,880 Speaker 1: l MP last menstrual period. Basically, people can count from 132 00:07:34,920 --> 00:07:37,600 Speaker 1: the first day of their last menstruation to figure out 133 00:07:37,600 --> 00:07:40,960 Speaker 1: how pregnant they are. UM. We do have an app 134 00:07:41,000 --> 00:07:43,640 Speaker 1: that I want to recommend called Yuki e u k 135 00:07:44,160 --> 00:07:48,400 Speaker 1: I comes from the word eucalyptus, which is a menstrual tracker, 136 00:07:48,960 --> 00:07:52,360 Speaker 1: but also has information about how to use contraception, how 137 00:07:52,400 --> 00:07:56,160 Speaker 1: to use abortion pills. It is private and secure. UH. 138 00:07:56,200 --> 00:07:58,840 Speaker 1: The the information is not available to anybody. It was 139 00:07:58,840 --> 00:08:02,600 Speaker 1: not commercially developed, was developed by grants. So even we 140 00:08:02,640 --> 00:08:04,800 Speaker 1: don't know other than how many people download it, we 141 00:08:04,800 --> 00:08:07,360 Speaker 1: don't know how people are using it. So I really 142 00:08:07,480 --> 00:08:10,000 Speaker 1: I think it's really important that people understand how their 143 00:08:10,000 --> 00:08:13,520 Speaker 1: bodies work, understand how to figure out how pregnant they are, 144 00:08:13,880 --> 00:08:16,840 Speaker 1: and then understand how to use these pills. You asked 145 00:08:16,840 --> 00:08:19,240 Speaker 1: a really important question, which is how late can these 146 00:08:19,280 --> 00:08:23,360 Speaker 1: pills be used? Um, The w h O has studied 147 00:08:23,480 --> 00:08:26,720 Speaker 1: the use of these pills through twelve weeks, and there 148 00:08:26,840 --> 00:08:28,720 Speaker 1: is a set of protocols for how to use them 149 00:08:28,720 --> 00:08:31,640 Speaker 1: for twelve weeks and basically, with mice across alone, a 150 00:08:31,680 --> 00:08:35,480 Speaker 1: person would need twelve tablets two hundred micrograms each. They 151 00:08:35,520 --> 00:08:38,400 Speaker 1: would put four pills under their tongue, let them dissolve 152 00:08:38,440 --> 00:08:41,600 Speaker 1: thirty minutes and then swallow, wait three hours to do 153 00:08:41,640 --> 00:08:44,840 Speaker 1: it again, four pills under the tongue thirty minutes and 154 00:08:44,840 --> 00:08:49,160 Speaker 1: then wait three hours and then use the last four pills. However, 155 00:08:49,200 --> 00:08:53,080 Speaker 1: after twelve weeks, the pills can also be used to 156 00:08:53,200 --> 00:08:56,480 Speaker 1: end up pregnancy. Mice acrostal can be used for labor induction. 157 00:08:57,400 --> 00:09:01,480 Speaker 1: Counter Intuitively, however, the large longer the pregnancy, the less 158 00:09:01,480 --> 00:09:04,960 Speaker 1: mice across them is needed, and a person doesn't want 159 00:09:04,960 --> 00:09:07,400 Speaker 1: to take too much. Exactly, you and I probably think, oh, 160 00:09:07,480 --> 00:09:08,880 Speaker 1: I have a headache, I'll take to ask for it. 161 00:09:08,920 --> 00:09:12,200 Speaker 1: Oh it didn't go away, I'll take two. More counter intuitively, 162 00:09:12,280 --> 00:09:15,520 Speaker 1: as the uterus stretches with pregnancy, it's more sensitive to 163 00:09:15,559 --> 00:09:18,720 Speaker 1: mines approsto and actually can be dangerous to use as 164 00:09:18,800 --> 00:09:20,880 Speaker 1: much as one would use in the first twelve weeks. 165 00:09:21,800 --> 00:09:24,720 Speaker 1: Anybody who wants to learn more can either go on 166 00:09:24,760 --> 00:09:28,280 Speaker 1: the website abortion pill info dot org or use that 167 00:09:28,360 --> 00:09:31,920 Speaker 1: website and contact skilled counselors from Women Help Women who 168 00:09:31,960 --> 00:09:36,000 Speaker 1: are based overseas, who answer over twelve thousand emails a 169 00:09:36,040 --> 00:09:39,160 Speaker 1: month about how to use these pills, and they will 170 00:09:39,160 --> 00:09:41,800 Speaker 1: counsel people regardless of the number they need to know, 171 00:09:41,840 --> 00:09:44,800 Speaker 1: how many weeks pregnancies they will they will adapt the 172 00:09:44,880 --> 00:09:49,400 Speaker 1: information to that situation. But most people in this country 173 00:09:49,400 --> 00:09:52,360 Speaker 1: who have gone to clinics for abortion do it in 174 00:09:52,400 --> 00:09:55,079 Speaker 1: the first nine or ten weeks, and these pills are 175 00:09:55,120 --> 00:09:58,120 Speaker 1: extremely safe and effective to use with these w H 176 00:09:58,320 --> 00:10:01,760 Speaker 1: protocols up to twelve weeks. So while you're correct that 177 00:10:01,800 --> 00:10:04,439 Speaker 1: most people don't know they're pregnant at six weeks, they 178 00:10:04,600 --> 00:10:08,960 Speaker 1: at the time they're they've missed a period usually and 179 00:10:09,000 --> 00:10:12,000 Speaker 1: they're they've taken a pregnancy test, and the urin pregnancy 180 00:10:12,040 --> 00:10:14,800 Speaker 1: test that people buy in the dollar store over the 181 00:10:14,960 --> 00:10:29,800 Speaker 1: pharmacy are pretty are pretty accurate. Yeah, you brought up something, 182 00:10:29,800 --> 00:10:33,120 Speaker 1: which is that who have these people who can help 183 00:10:33,640 --> 00:10:36,880 Speaker 1: provide advice and their overseas, and you you kind of 184 00:10:36,920 --> 00:10:38,920 Speaker 1: specify that every time I see you, I hear you 185 00:10:38,960 --> 00:10:41,680 Speaker 1: talk about it, and you also specify the degree of 186 00:10:41,760 --> 00:10:46,240 Speaker 1: security um which you which you put on these conversations UM. 187 00:10:46,240 --> 00:10:50,120 Speaker 1: And it's a degree that I think is uncommon for 188 00:10:50,160 --> 00:10:52,360 Speaker 1: what should be a pretty basic medical procedure. And it's 189 00:10:52,400 --> 00:10:56,320 Speaker 1: obviously because of there's potential consequences here. I'm interested in 190 00:10:56,440 --> 00:10:59,920 Speaker 1: kind of what are some of the present legal consequence 191 00:11:00,040 --> 00:11:01,640 Speaker 1: is and what are some of your worries when you 192 00:11:01,679 --> 00:11:04,760 Speaker 1: adopt these very stringent security measures for people who come 193 00:11:04,760 --> 00:11:08,680 Speaker 1: to you. So let's leave Texas aside. Prior to the 194 00:11:08,800 --> 00:11:13,280 Speaker 1: Texas law, approximately twenty four people in the United States 195 00:11:13,280 --> 00:11:18,520 Speaker 1: have been prosecuted for using abortion pills without a clinician involved, 196 00:11:18,559 --> 00:11:21,880 Speaker 1: in other words, for self managing their abortion UM. It's 197 00:11:21,880 --> 00:11:24,520 Speaker 1: important to say most of the people who were prosecuted 198 00:11:24,559 --> 00:11:30,400 Speaker 1: were not ultimately convicted, but somewhere because many states criminalize 199 00:11:30,640 --> 00:11:34,200 Speaker 1: the use of these pills without a clinician involved. That 200 00:11:34,360 --> 00:11:38,240 Speaker 1: being said, thousands and thousands of thousands of people are 201 00:11:38,320 --> 00:11:42,680 Speaker 1: obtaining mys acostal or mio cristal plus myz acrostal in 202 00:11:42,720 --> 00:11:46,000 Speaker 1: the United States. We have some websites where that actually 203 00:11:46,040 --> 00:11:49,599 Speaker 1: share the number of pills that they're sending into the US. 204 00:11:49,760 --> 00:11:53,680 Speaker 1: And we also know about my acrostal sales um going 205 00:11:53,760 --> 00:11:56,520 Speaker 1: way up in the countries where it is available of 206 00:11:56,559 --> 00:11:59,640 Speaker 1: an encounter, so there's no doubt. And also people have 207 00:11:59,640 --> 00:12:02,280 Speaker 1: shared their stories, so there that twenty four is a 208 00:12:02,320 --> 00:12:06,120 Speaker 1: tiny percentage of all the people who have been who 209 00:12:06,120 --> 00:12:10,360 Speaker 1: have used these pills. However, these pills are safe and 210 00:12:10,360 --> 00:12:13,959 Speaker 1: effective and nobody should have legal risk in using them. Therefore, 211 00:12:14,000 --> 00:12:16,600 Speaker 1: when we set up SASS, which is self managed abortion, 212 00:12:16,679 --> 00:12:19,360 Speaker 1: safe and supported and it's a project of this international 213 00:12:19,480 --> 00:12:22,480 Speaker 1: organization Women Help Women, we were very aware that in 214 00:12:22,520 --> 00:12:25,760 Speaker 1: the U s there's a lot of surveillance of people's bodies, 215 00:12:26,360 --> 00:12:31,400 Speaker 1: there's a lot of potential to pack into people's emails. 216 00:12:31,440 --> 00:12:34,160 Speaker 1: So we set up a very secure system where people 217 00:12:34,240 --> 00:12:38,319 Speaker 1: can email our overseas counselors UM on a very secure 218 00:12:38,360 --> 00:12:42,920 Speaker 1: server and get back a an answer that will disappear 219 00:12:43,040 --> 00:12:45,959 Speaker 1: within seven days, so there's no evidence in their phone 220 00:12:46,040 --> 00:12:49,240 Speaker 1: or electronic device that they ever sent this email. We 221 00:12:49,360 --> 00:12:52,320 Speaker 1: just thought, you know, it's an extra step. Um. Most 222 00:12:52,360 --> 00:12:54,800 Speaker 1: people probably aren't even aware they're going through a secure site, 223 00:12:54,840 --> 00:12:57,000 Speaker 1: but we want to make sure that nobody who who 224 00:12:57,200 --> 00:13:01,920 Speaker 1: contacts us can ever be prosecuted. Yeah, and it's I mean, 225 00:13:02,000 --> 00:13:04,439 Speaker 1: it seems like you're were especially given the nature of 226 00:13:04,440 --> 00:13:07,160 Speaker 1: the Texas law, you're worried about vigilantes as much as anything, 227 00:13:07,200 --> 00:13:10,040 Speaker 1: not necessarily even the state, but but you know, the 228 00:13:10,360 --> 00:13:12,760 Speaker 1: kind of people who show up outside of planned parenthoods 229 00:13:12,760 --> 00:13:16,000 Speaker 1: with guns. The good thing about an international organization running 230 00:13:16,000 --> 00:13:18,120 Speaker 1: this is none of the people answering the email are 231 00:13:18,160 --> 00:13:22,120 Speaker 1: in the US. Yeah, pretty difficult for these Texas vigilantes 232 00:13:22,200 --> 00:13:26,120 Speaker 1: or frankly anybody else to file a lawsuit. First of all, 233 00:13:26,240 --> 00:13:29,160 Speaker 1: it's all anonymized. They don't we don't. Women Help Them 234 00:13:29,240 --> 00:13:32,720 Speaker 1: doesn't advertise who our staff are, and none, none of 235 00:13:32,720 --> 00:13:36,360 Speaker 1: them are in this country. I mean, that's very smart. 236 00:13:36,720 --> 00:13:38,679 Speaker 1: When did when was it set up this way? Like 237 00:13:38,840 --> 00:13:41,319 Speaker 1: how long ago were you kind of thinking about the direction, 238 00:13:41,400 --> 00:13:45,400 Speaker 1: because it seems like you you had a pretty blunt 239 00:13:45,600 --> 00:13:48,920 Speaker 1: understanding of where things were headed. So Women Help Women 240 00:13:48,960 --> 00:13:52,280 Speaker 1: was founded in and we work in eighty two countries. 241 00:13:52,679 --> 00:13:55,440 Speaker 1: We work in countries like the Philippines where any kind 242 00:13:55,480 --> 00:14:00,280 Speaker 1: of drug deal dealer has been called. Yeah, work in 243 00:14:00,400 --> 00:14:03,800 Speaker 1: Poland where abortion is not legal. In anywhere in the country. 244 00:14:04,160 --> 00:14:08,440 Speaker 1: We work in many places in Latin America where abortion 245 00:14:08,480 --> 00:14:11,480 Speaker 1: is highly criminalized, so we had security set up from 246 00:14:11,559 --> 00:14:15,960 Speaker 1: the beginning. It was actually shortly after the election of 247 00:14:16,400 --> 00:14:19,800 Speaker 1: h I'll call him Orange forty five because I've sworn 248 00:14:19,880 --> 00:14:23,040 Speaker 1: that this our ex president's name, will never cross my lips. 249 00:14:23,640 --> 00:14:26,200 Speaker 1: Uh from Poland said, you know, we used to have 250 00:14:26,280 --> 00:14:28,360 Speaker 1: legal abortion and we lost it, and you're gonna lose 251 00:14:28,400 --> 00:14:31,160 Speaker 1: it too. People in the US better, you know, we 252 00:14:31,200 --> 00:14:33,720 Speaker 1: should do something for people in the United States, and 253 00:14:33,800 --> 00:14:37,400 Speaker 1: that's why so SAS was founded shortly after the inauguration 254 00:14:38,080 --> 00:14:41,640 Speaker 1: of the last president and has been in place ever since. 255 00:14:42,240 --> 00:14:44,320 Speaker 1: A lot of our work is not just the website 256 00:14:44,320 --> 00:14:47,920 Speaker 1: and answering, it's really raising the awareness of our colleagues. 257 00:14:48,000 --> 00:14:51,200 Speaker 1: We also before COVID went into communities. Now we do 258 00:14:51,240 --> 00:14:53,920 Speaker 1: it for via Zoo. We actually do three hour trainings 259 00:14:53,960 --> 00:14:56,120 Speaker 1: to teach people how to use these medicines and how 260 00:14:56,160 --> 00:15:02,080 Speaker 1: to teach others' we uh, you know, we have manual Spanish. 261 00:15:02,440 --> 00:15:05,240 Speaker 1: We have people doing these trainings all over the US 262 00:15:06,040 --> 00:15:09,000 Speaker 1: UM and have reached thousands of people directly with this 263 00:15:09,120 --> 00:15:14,920 Speaker 1: information UM sort of prophylactically with the belief that it 264 00:15:14,960 --> 00:15:17,520 Speaker 1: shouldn't be when a person is pregnant that they understand 265 00:15:17,520 --> 00:15:21,400 Speaker 1: how these pills work. This is basic information that gotten 266 00:15:21,480 --> 00:15:24,240 Speaker 1: in high school. It's like knowing how to put on 267 00:15:24,280 --> 00:15:26,320 Speaker 1: a tourniquet or something. It should be part of your 268 00:15:26,320 --> 00:15:28,080 Speaker 1: first stage. How do you when to put on a 269 00:15:28,120 --> 00:15:31,480 Speaker 1: band aid and when to take an aspirint? You know, 270 00:15:32,000 --> 00:15:35,400 Speaker 1: how do you treat a cold? So the knowledge about 271 00:15:35,440 --> 00:15:38,960 Speaker 1: these pills, we've worked very hard to make it very accessible. 272 00:15:39,480 --> 00:15:41,600 Speaker 1: We actually have load we you know, we've done these 273 00:15:41,600 --> 00:15:43,800 Speaker 1: trainings and countries where there's not a lot of literacy, 274 00:15:44,320 --> 00:15:47,160 Speaker 1: so with graphics, we have videos. We have lots of 275 00:15:47,160 --> 00:15:50,120 Speaker 1: ways to teach. Many aren't appropriate for the u S 276 00:15:50,160 --> 00:15:54,240 Speaker 1: where there's more literacy but sometimes less understanding about how 277 00:15:54,280 --> 00:15:57,520 Speaker 1: bodies work. So um. So our goal has been to 278 00:15:57,720 --> 00:15:59,800 Speaker 1: you know, we also go to professional conferences and so 279 00:16:00,160 --> 00:16:03,640 Speaker 1: channels and try to raise awareness within the reproductive rights 280 00:16:03,640 --> 00:16:06,880 Speaker 1: and reproductive justice movement about the importance of self managed 281 00:16:06,920 --> 00:16:11,280 Speaker 1: abortion as an intol of empowerment and breaking stigma. Not 282 00:16:11,560 --> 00:16:14,000 Speaker 1: as hey, if you can't get to a clinic, tribes, 283 00:16:14,120 --> 00:16:17,160 Speaker 1: but why why is this option not available to me? 284 00:16:17,240 --> 00:16:19,840 Speaker 1: In a state of Massachusetts where I live where there's 285 00:16:19,840 --> 00:16:22,760 Speaker 1: plenty of clinics, But why can't I just walk down 286 00:16:22,760 --> 00:16:24,800 Speaker 1: to the to the Walgreens and get these pills if 287 00:16:24,800 --> 00:16:28,240 Speaker 1: a doctor tells me it's okay, or without a doctor, Yeah, 288 00:16:28,240 --> 00:16:32,160 Speaker 1: they're so safe. So we've really, we really advocate for 289 00:16:32,200 --> 00:16:36,440 Speaker 1: self managed abortion as a viable option. UM. It should 290 00:16:36,440 --> 00:16:39,760 Speaker 1: be viable regardless of the law. Obviously for many people 291 00:16:39,800 --> 00:16:43,880 Speaker 1: it's the only option in places like Texas. UM. But 292 00:16:44,120 --> 00:16:46,560 Speaker 1: it's as good, it's a better. Some people don't want 293 00:16:46,600 --> 00:16:49,200 Speaker 1: to go see a clinician. Yeah, they don't want to 294 00:16:49,240 --> 00:16:50,960 Speaker 1: go through a bunch of protesters. They would just like 295 00:16:51,000 --> 00:16:53,800 Speaker 1: to get a package in the mail with their medicines. Yeah, 296 00:16:53,960 --> 00:16:57,240 Speaker 1: I mean it's and that's I mean, there's there's both 297 00:16:57,280 --> 00:17:00,760 Speaker 1: the the tool of an immediate need that there's there's 298 00:17:00,800 --> 00:17:03,360 Speaker 1: desperate people who need access to this, but it's also 299 00:17:03,880 --> 00:17:07,280 Speaker 1: in a broader sense, like building power within individuals and 300 00:17:07,320 --> 00:17:10,199 Speaker 1: within communities to manage their own reproductive healthcare, which I 301 00:17:10,200 --> 00:17:13,160 Speaker 1: think is really important exactly. And there are people who 302 00:17:13,240 --> 00:17:15,199 Speaker 1: could get to a clinic and have them needs to 303 00:17:15,200 --> 00:17:16,960 Speaker 1: go to a clinic, who are opting not to go 304 00:17:17,040 --> 00:17:20,280 Speaker 1: to a clinic. And two because they feel confident in 305 00:17:20,320 --> 00:17:25,359 Speaker 1: their ability to take these pills as directed to manage it. 306 00:17:25,560 --> 00:17:27,399 Speaker 1: And I just want to say, we started this conversation 307 00:17:27,440 --> 00:17:30,840 Speaker 1: with talking about of all praises end in a miscarriage. 308 00:17:31,080 --> 00:17:34,240 Speaker 1: Most people have a miscarriage don't get medical care. Yeah, 309 00:17:34,520 --> 00:17:37,760 Speaker 1: they can manage the bleeding and they know when it's 310 00:17:37,800 --> 00:17:40,600 Speaker 1: over and they know that fine, which I think is 311 00:17:40,600 --> 00:17:43,120 Speaker 1: an important point because I know people who have had 312 00:17:43,720 --> 00:17:46,760 Speaker 1: very difficult miscarriages, but that's not most of the most 313 00:17:46,800 --> 00:17:49,640 Speaker 1: of them are are mild enough that yeah, like you said, 314 00:17:49,680 --> 00:17:52,800 Speaker 1: you don't need medical care. Well, I just so, I 315 00:17:52,880 --> 00:17:56,119 Speaker 1: just want to be clear. You know, using the abortion 316 00:17:56,160 --> 00:17:59,840 Speaker 1: pills does cause cramping and bleeding, but it is not 317 00:18:00,280 --> 00:18:02,960 Speaker 1: so far out of most people with the uterus is 318 00:18:03,040 --> 00:18:06,800 Speaker 1: experience to have cramping and bleeding every month. This is 319 00:18:06,840 --> 00:18:09,960 Speaker 1: heavier cramping, heavier bleeding, but we we know how to 320 00:18:10,000 --> 00:18:23,400 Speaker 1: deal with this. Another point you make that I think 321 00:18:23,480 --> 00:18:26,440 Speaker 1: is really important is that you know, with any medication, 322 00:18:26,480 --> 00:18:28,840 Speaker 1: there's a chance it will be used wrong or it'll 323 00:18:28,920 --> 00:18:31,159 Speaker 1: have an expected effect. If you have to if you 324 00:18:31,200 --> 00:18:33,040 Speaker 1: take this stuff and you have to go to the doctor, 325 00:18:33,520 --> 00:18:35,520 Speaker 1: you don't need to tell the doctor. This is what 326 00:18:35,680 --> 00:18:38,879 Speaker 1: I've taken you you like, could you talk to that 327 00:18:38,920 --> 00:18:40,919 Speaker 1: about a little bit how someone would if they needed 328 00:18:40,960 --> 00:18:42,920 Speaker 1: to go to the doctor as a result of an 329 00:18:42,920 --> 00:18:45,720 Speaker 1: interaction or something, what they would would be best to say. 330 00:18:46,200 --> 00:18:48,600 Speaker 1: There are two kinds of complications that can happen in 331 00:18:48,880 --> 00:18:51,320 Speaker 1: very very rare cases. The person can bleed too much, 332 00:18:51,400 --> 00:18:54,679 Speaker 1: have a hemorrhage, and they absolutely mean medical care. The 333 00:18:54,760 --> 00:18:57,240 Speaker 1: chance of a hemorrhage with these pills is exactly the 334 00:18:57,280 --> 00:18:59,000 Speaker 1: same as the has a chance of the hemorrhage with 335 00:18:59,040 --> 00:19:02,720 Speaker 1: a natural miscare. So it happens. Doctors in every e 336 00:19:02,880 --> 00:19:05,439 Speaker 1: r know how to treat it. The other complication that 337 00:19:05,440 --> 00:19:08,160 Speaker 1: can happen is in infection. You know, there's some retained 338 00:19:08,200 --> 00:19:12,320 Speaker 1: tissue and the bleeding continues and they need to get antibiotics. 339 00:19:13,440 --> 00:19:16,600 Speaker 1: So what's really interesting about these pills is they move 340 00:19:16,680 --> 00:19:20,240 Speaker 1: through the body relatively quickly and there is no test 341 00:19:20,280 --> 00:19:22,840 Speaker 1: of blood or urine for them as long as the person, 342 00:19:22,960 --> 00:19:25,239 Speaker 1: especially if the person followed the directions and use them 343 00:19:25,280 --> 00:19:28,080 Speaker 1: under the tongue or in the cheeks, they've gone through 344 00:19:28,080 --> 00:19:33,199 Speaker 1: the stomach, they're gone. Yeah. In some directions say to 345 00:19:33,320 --> 00:19:36,960 Speaker 1: use the MISA prostal vaginally. The problem with that is 346 00:19:37,000 --> 00:19:39,720 Speaker 1: the inert substances, and the pills could stay in the 347 00:19:39,760 --> 00:19:42,120 Speaker 1: vagina for up to three days, and then there's evidence, 348 00:19:42,400 --> 00:19:44,439 Speaker 1: right because the doctor could see the crumbs if they 349 00:19:44,440 --> 00:19:46,879 Speaker 1: do a pelvic exam. But as long as the person 350 00:19:47,000 --> 00:19:51,040 Speaker 1: used the pills, either used the mice aprostal one swallows 351 00:19:51,040 --> 00:19:54,199 Speaker 1: the mephopristom, as long as they use it in the 352 00:19:54,280 --> 00:19:57,000 Speaker 1: and that's absorbed through the mouth, there are no tests. 353 00:19:57,000 --> 00:19:59,359 Speaker 1: So the person can say I'm bleeding and I don't 354 00:19:59,359 --> 00:20:01,520 Speaker 1: know why, which, by the way, many people with a 355 00:20:01,600 --> 00:20:05,520 Speaker 1: miscaracter now they were pregnant. Happens all the time, or 356 00:20:05,640 --> 00:20:07,800 Speaker 1: they could say I was pregnant and I think I'm 357 00:20:07,800 --> 00:20:11,320 Speaker 1: having a miscarriage. Yeah, we are really trying to work 358 00:20:11,359 --> 00:20:15,520 Speaker 1: with some professional groups to increase awareness that people shouldn't 359 00:20:15,520 --> 00:20:20,360 Speaker 1: be vigilanties, healthcare providers should not be vigilanties. But the 360 00:20:20,400 --> 00:20:22,280 Speaker 1: only way a person is going to get in trouble 361 00:20:22,359 --> 00:20:25,439 Speaker 1: is if they say they use the medicines. Even if 362 00:20:25,480 --> 00:20:28,240 Speaker 1: the doctor says, did you use the medicines, there is 363 00:20:28,280 --> 00:20:31,520 Speaker 1: no reason to say it. The treatment is exactly the 364 00:20:31,520 --> 00:20:35,119 Speaker 1: same as for a natural miscarriage. I wanted to ask 365 00:20:35,240 --> 00:20:39,480 Speaker 1: kind of how listeners, particularly listeners who you know may 366 00:20:39,520 --> 00:20:44,040 Speaker 1: not personally need this medicine but may want to support 367 00:20:44,080 --> 00:20:46,120 Speaker 1: what you're doing, or may need the medicine and still 368 00:20:46,119 --> 00:20:48,159 Speaker 1: want to support what you're doing. Are there ways in 369 00:20:48,160 --> 00:20:51,280 Speaker 1: which people can either financially or otherwise help support y'all? 370 00:20:51,640 --> 00:20:55,200 Speaker 1: Absolutely again. Abortion pill info dot Org is our website. 371 00:20:55,240 --> 00:20:57,439 Speaker 1: There's a whole section of what people can do. They 372 00:20:57,480 --> 00:20:59,920 Speaker 1: can they can learn about these pills and tell other people. 373 00:21:00,440 --> 00:21:03,120 Speaker 1: They can get stickers to let people know they exist. 374 00:21:03,160 --> 00:21:06,160 Speaker 1: Because remember, most people don't know there are abortion pills, 375 00:21:06,200 --> 00:21:07,320 Speaker 1: so they don't even know how to look on the 376 00:21:07,320 --> 00:21:12,439 Speaker 1: internet for this thing, you know, so sharing information is 377 00:21:12,560 --> 00:21:16,879 Speaker 1: really important. There's also a donation button there, but the 378 00:21:16,920 --> 00:21:20,000 Speaker 1: biggest thing that people can do in this moment, apart 379 00:21:20,080 --> 00:21:24,640 Speaker 1: from donating, is to educate themselves. They can either sign 380 00:21:24,680 --> 00:21:26,840 Speaker 1: up to take one of our trainings and become a 381 00:21:27,119 --> 00:21:30,159 Speaker 1: We call them trainers, but it's really information sharing. You know, 382 00:21:30,280 --> 00:21:32,280 Speaker 1: you and I have just talked about these pills. You 383 00:21:32,359 --> 00:21:34,240 Speaker 1: understand them more than you did half an hour ago. 384 00:21:35,160 --> 00:21:37,680 Speaker 1: Training a little too formal of a term for what 385 00:21:37,720 --> 00:21:41,040 Speaker 1: we do, but afterwards people will understand these pills very 386 00:21:41,040 --> 00:21:43,560 Speaker 1: well and be able to support others who either want 387 00:21:43,560 --> 00:21:47,480 Speaker 1: to know about them or are using them. And the 388 00:21:47,560 --> 00:21:49,440 Speaker 1: last thing I'd kind of like to ask you, if 389 00:21:49,440 --> 00:21:53,000 Speaker 1: you don't mind sharing, is how did you get into 390 00:21:53,040 --> 00:21:56,480 Speaker 1: this personally? Like what brought you into this line of 391 00:21:56,600 --> 00:22:01,240 Speaker 1: good question. So I've been doing abortion access work since 392 00:22:01,280 --> 00:22:04,600 Speaker 1: the eighties. UM. I was involved in the big demonstrations 393 00:22:05,000 --> 00:22:08,359 Speaker 1: in front of the clinics, etcetera. But I've also spent 394 00:22:08,400 --> 00:22:10,520 Speaker 1: a lot of time in Mexico where these pills are 395 00:22:10,560 --> 00:22:14,119 Speaker 1: over the counter and no, And it wasn't until and 396 00:22:14,160 --> 00:22:16,600 Speaker 1: I'm a little embarrassed to say this, but it wasn't 397 00:22:16,640 --> 00:22:19,159 Speaker 1: until about fifteen years ago that it's suddenly occurred to me, 398 00:22:19,200 --> 00:22:22,080 Speaker 1: Wait a second, I wonder why people in the US 399 00:22:22,119 --> 00:22:26,199 Speaker 1: aren't doing what what people in Mexico are doing. I'm just, 400 00:22:26,400 --> 00:22:28,760 Speaker 1: you know, it just it's like I was crossing the border, 401 00:22:28,800 --> 00:22:33,720 Speaker 1: but the idea hadn't crossed. And I started working with 402 00:22:33,760 --> 00:22:38,000 Speaker 1: another international organization of Women on Waves that was supplying 403 00:22:38,040 --> 00:22:41,120 Speaker 1: these pills all over the world, and I learned more 404 00:22:41,160 --> 00:22:44,040 Speaker 1: about them, and I eventually gave up my other day 405 00:22:44,119 --> 00:22:48,160 Speaker 1: job UM and started doing this work more directly over 406 00:22:48,200 --> 00:22:52,320 Speaker 1: the last ten years. Awesome, UM, Well, Susan, I think 407 00:22:52,320 --> 00:22:54,000 Speaker 1: that's everything I had to ask. Was there anything else 408 00:22:54,040 --> 00:22:56,240 Speaker 1: you wanted to make sure to get out today? No, 409 00:22:56,480 --> 00:22:58,880 Speaker 1: I just want to be really clear that well, this 410 00:22:58,960 --> 00:23:01,520 Speaker 1: is a human right and that they're people should have 411 00:23:01,520 --> 00:23:05,040 Speaker 1: the option of going to a clinic. And the closing 412 00:23:05,119 --> 00:23:06,800 Speaker 1: of the what you know, this is going to result 413 00:23:06,800 --> 00:23:11,399 Speaker 1: in clinics in Texas being down essentially nobody who's you know, 414 00:23:11,680 --> 00:23:14,080 Speaker 1: and they can't keep their doors open with a few 415 00:23:14,080 --> 00:23:17,159 Speaker 1: people who happen to get in before six weeks. And 416 00:23:17,200 --> 00:23:19,200 Speaker 1: I think we have to do everything possible to support 417 00:23:19,680 --> 00:23:23,600 Speaker 1: there being access to clinicians, that this is an option 418 00:23:23,640 --> 00:23:25,840 Speaker 1: that we all need to learn more about and to 419 00:23:25,960 --> 00:23:29,320 Speaker 1: think about why why is this so controlled? If this 420 00:23:29,440 --> 00:23:32,600 Speaker 1: was a medicine, like it's more controlled than than opiates. 421 00:23:33,640 --> 00:23:39,240 Speaker 1: It's certainly more controlled than beyond and it's crazy and 422 00:23:39,440 --> 00:23:45,000 Speaker 1: it's a misogynistic that these pills are not in our hands. So, 423 00:23:45,520 --> 00:23:48,560 Speaker 1: um yeah, I would encourage your listeners to get on 424 00:23:48,600 --> 00:23:52,000 Speaker 1: the website if they want more information there is you know, 425 00:23:52,119 --> 00:23:55,320 Speaker 1: they can easily email through the website and learn whatever 426 00:23:55,400 --> 00:23:58,199 Speaker 1: they want. Um. But it's all of our responsibility to 427 00:23:58,280 --> 00:24:02,440 Speaker 1: learn this and to help get this information out absolutely, 428 00:24:02,680 --> 00:24:05,000 Speaker 1: Susan Yano, thank you so much for talking with us 429 00:24:05,040 --> 00:24:09,280 Speaker 1: today and thank you all for listening. This has been 430 00:24:09,359 --> 00:24:12,560 Speaker 1: It Could Happen Here and we'll be back tomorrow UM 431 00:24:12,600 --> 00:24:16,440 Speaker 1: with another episode. Thank you so much, season you're very well. 432 00:24:21,240 --> 00:24:23,600 Speaker 1: It Could Happen Here as a production of cool Zone Media. 433 00:24:23,800 --> 00:24:26,520 Speaker 1: For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website 434 00:24:26,520 --> 00:24:28,639 Speaker 1: cool zone Media dot com, or check us out on 435 00:24:28,680 --> 00:24:31,240 Speaker 1: the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you 436 00:24:31,280 --> 00:24:34,080 Speaker 1: listen to podcasts. You can find sources for It Could 437 00:24:34,080 --> 00:24:37,080 Speaker 1: Happen Here, updated monthly at cool zone Media dot com 438 00:24:37,119 --> 00:24:39,040 Speaker 1: slash sources. Thanks for listening.