WEBVTT - Sebastian Junger on Tribe, War, and the Cost of Coming Home 0:00:17.101 --> 0:00:27.981 Pushkin. I'm Malcolm Glabel and I'm back this week for 0:00:28.021 --> 0:00:31.501 a special bonus episode of Medal of Honor, Stories of Courage. 0:00:31.781 --> 0:00:35.301 We're sitting down with Sebastian Younger. Younger is the author 0:00:35.301 --> 0:00:36.741 of many books, but the one we're going to be 0:00:36.781 --> 0:00:41.061 talking about today is Tribe on Homecoming and Belonging, which 0:00:41.101 --> 0:00:43.981 came out ten years ago but seems more relevant than ever. 0:00:45.021 --> 0:00:48.581 Younger spent years embedded with American soldiers during the Afghan War, 0:00:48.941 --> 0:00:51.740 and in Tribe, he explores what happened to those soldiers 0:00:51.741 --> 0:00:54.701 when they were in Afghanistan and also what happened when 0:00:54.700 --> 0:00:57.661 they came home. I should point out that I am 0:00:57.781 --> 0:01:01.101 a huge fan of Sebastian Younger's I think he's easily 0:01:01.141 --> 0:01:04.140 one of the greatest nonfiction writers of my generation. And 0:01:04.221 --> 0:01:07.261 this conversation was everything I had hoped it would be. 0:01:08.101 --> 0:01:13.661 Enjoy Hi, Sebastian, how you doing. 0:01:14.301 --> 0:01:15.741 Hey good, it's nice to meet you. 0:01:15.981 --> 0:01:17.580 I'm looking forward to this. Thank you for doing this. 0:01:18.140 --> 0:01:20.460 Oh it's a honor. Thank you. I'm really looking forward 0:01:20.461 --> 0:01:20.700 to it. 0:01:21.461 --> 0:01:23.901 So we want to talk about Tribe, which is your 0:01:23.901 --> 0:01:27.020 book from what almost ten years ago. I loved that book. 0:01:27.060 --> 0:01:29.500 I thought it was. I'm a big fan of yours 0:01:29.500 --> 0:01:31.221 in general, but that was I thought that book was 0:01:31.261 --> 0:01:31.981 something special. 0:01:32.381 --> 0:01:35.420 Thank you so much. It's still selling, which means people 0:01:35.461 --> 0:01:36.181 are so lonely. 0:01:37.780 --> 0:01:40.741 I was just curious how you came to write that book, 0:01:40.780 --> 0:01:43.500 what was your what led you into that subject. 0:01:44.140 --> 0:01:46.060 You know. I'd been a war reporter for a long time, 0:01:46.381 --> 0:01:48.981 starting in Bosnia in nineteen ninety three, a bunch of 0:01:49.021 --> 0:01:54.061 civil wars West Africa, and I was very very compelled 0:01:54.061 --> 0:01:56.300 by Afghanistan. Had been going there for years since the 0:01:56.341 --> 0:02:00.421 mid nineties, and eventually I was with American forces in 0:02:00.461 --> 0:02:04.221 eastern Afghanistan at a little outpost called Rastreppo. I was 0:02:04.261 --> 0:02:08.300 out at Ristreppo with a wonderful photographer named Tim Heatherington. 0:02:08.941 --> 0:02:10.460 I was out there off and on for a year. 0:02:11.181 --> 0:02:13.781 Was the forty man position. It was all men out 0:02:13.781 --> 0:02:16.901 there on this ridge. We were getting shot at just 0:02:16.941 --> 0:02:18.900 about every day. There was a lot of combat, a 0:02:18.981 --> 0:02:21.981 lot of casualties. Totally cut off from the outside world, 0:02:22.701 --> 0:02:26.781 very very hard place. When the guys got back, they 0:02:26.821 --> 0:02:30.981 all got really depressed. All the things they interest young men, right, 0:02:31.101 --> 0:02:34.941 young women, television, cars, sports, all this stuff that civilization 0:02:35.061 --> 0:02:37.941 has to offer for them. They weren't interested, and they 0:02:37.981 --> 0:02:39.941 started to talk about how they wanted to go back 0:02:39.981 --> 0:02:43.981 to Afghanistan, and I was asked about that in an interview. 0:02:44.421 --> 0:02:46.981 Basically the question was like, what's wrong with these guys, 0:02:47.741 --> 0:02:51.261 Like what's their problem? And just intuitively I said, you know, 0:02:50.861 --> 0:02:53.941 I don't think they have the problem. I think they're 0:02:53.981 --> 0:02:58.461 coming back to a society, our society, which is sort 0:02:58.461 --> 0:03:02.821 of socially desolate and very hard to find a meaningful connection, 0:03:02.981 --> 0:03:06.741 meaningful community, to make sacrifices for it to be part of, 0:03:06.861 --> 0:03:09.541 to depend on. They have all that in spades out 0:03:09.581 --> 0:03:12.261 at Ristrepo, and they wanted to go back to the 0:03:12.301 --> 0:03:15.301 real thing. And I said, actually, their desire to go 0:03:15.381 --> 0:03:18.821 back in somebody shows their mental health rather than some 0:03:18.941 --> 0:03:22.781 kind of psychological struggle. And then, as an anthropologist I 0:03:22.821 --> 0:03:25.541 started to think about that question of what are people 0:03:25.661 --> 0:03:30.021 drawn to, and over and over again the answer is community, 0:03:30.061 --> 0:03:34.541 and that clearly reflects our evolutionary reality as social primates, 0:03:34.581 --> 0:03:37.981 and that we survive in groups, not by ourselves. And 0:03:38.061 --> 0:03:42.061 that began the sort of central thesis of tribe, which 0:03:42.101 --> 0:03:45.341 is really, in some ways the worst trauma, the worst hardship, 0:03:45.581 --> 0:03:48.901 is to be unconnected to others I. 0:03:48.861 --> 0:03:50.781 Want to go back to when you were in Afghanistan 0:03:51.061 --> 0:03:54.621 with that group of guys on that ridge. Were the 0:03:54.621 --> 0:03:59.101 things that you observed afterwards, the fact that these men 0:03:59.301 --> 0:04:02.501 longed for community. Did you see evidence of that when 0:04:02.541 --> 0:04:05.061 you were actually in combat in Afghanistan? 0:04:05.661 --> 0:04:08.861 Well, I mean structurally, yes, we were stuck on a 0:04:08.901 --> 0:04:12.021 hilltop and everyone dependent on everyone to sort of do 0:04:12.101 --> 0:04:14.501 their jobs, including me as a journalist, and my job 0:04:14.861 --> 0:04:17.020 was basically to not like screw up and cause a 0:04:17.061 --> 0:04:19.821 problem that they had to fix. Right, And I'd been 0:04:19.861 --> 0:04:21.421 in a lot of combat. I was in good shape, 0:04:21.541 --> 0:04:23.741 you know. I felt confident I could do my job 0:04:23.781 --> 0:04:28.061 in that sense. Emotionally, yeah, I mean it's really interesting 0:04:28.101 --> 0:04:31.301 to be in a situation where you're never away from 0:04:31.621 --> 0:04:34.941 the people in your community, even for a minute. Like 0:04:35.221 --> 0:04:37.621 I mean where we slept in these little plywood hooches 0:04:37.621 --> 0:04:39.940 that they knocked together. They had these sort of like 0:04:40.021 --> 0:04:42.221 rickety bunks that they built, and I could reach out 0:04:42.261 --> 0:04:44.781 with my arm and touch three other men. I mean, 0:04:44.781 --> 0:04:48.741 we're like we're on a submarine. The level of familiarity, 0:04:49.221 --> 0:04:51.901 you know, it's all men, right, So the love is 0:04:51.981 --> 0:04:56.821 expressed in extremely rough ways, but love it is, and 0:04:56.901 --> 0:04:59.141 you could see that in combat for their concern for 0:04:59.181 --> 0:05:03.541 each other, and they're concerned that completely at times when needed, 0:05:03.661 --> 0:05:07.781 eclipsed their own fear, their own self interest. And you know, 0:05:07.821 --> 0:05:09.941 the young men they get in a fight, into conflicts 0:05:09.981 --> 0:05:12.941 like it's not like it was all wonderful, but it 0:05:12.981 --> 0:05:17.101 didn't matter. The thing about brotherhood, as eyewitnessed it out, 0:05:17.141 --> 0:05:22.381 there was unlike friendship. Brotherhood was totally independent of how 0:05:22.381 --> 0:05:24.501 you felt about the other person had nothing to do 0:05:24.541 --> 0:05:27.221 with it. You might like the guy, you might not 0:05:27.341 --> 0:05:28.901 like the guy, you might not be able to stand 0:05:28.941 --> 0:05:32.941 the guy, but he's your brother. You will do anything 0:05:33.021 --> 0:05:35.501 for him because he would do anything for you. As 0:05:35.581 --> 0:05:37.621 the end of the sentence, do. 0:05:37.501 --> 0:05:40.821 You have any specific memories of that time that kind 0:05:40.821 --> 0:05:43.861 of illustrate that. Do you see anything that you're like, Oh, 0:05:43.901 --> 0:05:46.101 in retrospect, that's what brotherhood looks like. 0:05:46.981 --> 0:05:51.541 I mean, in combat, the guys were largely utterly un 0:05:51.541 --> 0:05:54.501 self concerned. They did their jobs, and by their jobs, 0:05:54.541 --> 0:05:56.661 I don't mean their roles that were sort of like 0:05:56.741 --> 0:06:00.381 handed down by the military, their jobs as they themselves 0:06:00.501 --> 0:06:03.781 understood their jobs to be, which meant being an effective 0:06:03.861 --> 0:06:06.741 combatant and ignoring the incoming rounds. I can't tell you 0:06:06.821 --> 0:06:09.541 how hard it is to ignore bullets they're going past 0:06:09.541 --> 0:06:12.461 your head. It's almost impossible. But if you don't ignore 0:06:12.501 --> 0:06:14.861 them and stick your head up above the sandbag and 0:06:14.861 --> 0:06:19.501 shoot back, everyone's gonna die. You cannot just cower. And 0:06:19.621 --> 0:06:24.061 doing that is an incredible act of sort of self negation. 0:06:24.981 --> 0:06:27.661 And if everyone does that, then there's a much greater 0:06:27.781 --> 0:06:31.941 chance that everyone's gonna be okay. Chosen company one valot 0:06:31.941 --> 0:06:34.821 to the north. They got mauled several times. They had 0:06:34.821 --> 0:06:38.341 one firefight where they took one hundred percent casualties. First 0:06:38.341 --> 0:06:42.141 platoon walked into an L shaped ambush and took six 0:06:42.181 --> 0:06:44.461 casualties in the first few seconds, I think it was. 0:06:45.061 --> 0:06:47.460 And one of those young men was named sal Junta, 0:06:47.501 --> 0:06:50.221 and he was the first living Medal of Honor recipient 0:06:50.301 --> 0:06:53.940 since Vietnam. I mean. Junta ran forward, throwing hand grenades 0:06:53.981 --> 0:06:57.261 because they were dragging off his wounded Fred. They the 0:06:57.261 --> 0:07:01.301 Taliban down a hillside into the darkness, and Shutta had 0:07:01.381 --> 0:07:05.181 bullets impacting his body armor, and he ran forward. He 0:07:05.301 --> 0:07:07.940 killed the guys who were dragging away his brother and 0:07:08.101 --> 0:07:11.781 administered first aid until more soldiers got there. You know, 0:07:11.861 --> 0:07:14.181 dragging your wounded friend out of the line of fire. 0:07:14.301 --> 0:07:18.221 I mean, that's a powerful, powerful relationship, and I think 0:07:18.261 --> 0:07:22.541 an ancient one that only arises in the circumstances that 0:07:22.621 --> 0:07:29.301 require it for survival. That's an act of loyalty that 0:07:29.461 --> 0:07:31.541 is hard to find in the civilian world, and that 0:07:31.621 --> 0:07:34.621 if you experience it, it's missed, even though the things 0:07:34.701 --> 0:07:40.141 that make those acts necessary are horrific beyond description. This 0:07:40.181 --> 0:07:42.421 one guy said to me, Brendan o'bern, who's still a good, 0:07:42.501 --> 0:07:45.821 good friend of mine. He said, you know, Sebastian is strange. 0:07:45.901 --> 0:07:48.061 There's guys in the platoon who straight up hate each other, 0:07:48.581 --> 0:07:52.541 but we would all die for each other. Later, I 0:07:52.741 --> 0:07:55.021 kept thinking about that sentence, and I thought, Wow, no 0:07:55.061 --> 0:07:57.381 matter how nice life is back in the United States, 0:07:58.461 --> 0:07:59.981 if you're one of those young men, you are no 0:08:00.101 --> 0:08:19.501 longer in a group that you can say that about. 0:08:20.821 --> 0:08:23.981 It's a passion. When you were in Afghanistan, what impact 0:08:24.061 --> 0:08:27.061 did it have on you to be in that environment? 0:08:27.181 --> 0:08:29.261 Did you develop the same kind of bonds to the 0:08:29.301 --> 0:08:31.101 soldiers as they were developing to each other. 0:08:32.021 --> 0:08:35.101 I did, and it was interesting because it wasn't immediate. 0:08:35.141 --> 0:08:37.021 How could it be, You know, you're the new kid 0:08:37.021 --> 0:08:39.461 in high school and it takes a while to make friends. 0:08:39.461 --> 0:08:43.021 And we're twice their age. We're journalists, we're not soldiers. 0:08:43.580 --> 0:08:45.700 Are we going to be a liability? Can we keep 0:08:45.780 --> 0:08:47.740 up on the You know it was brutal. It was 0:08:47.780 --> 0:08:49.780 all foot movement, right, it was all on foot. That 0:08:50.141 --> 0:08:52.821 guys were carrying eighty ninety one hundred and twenty pounds 0:08:53.300 --> 0:08:57.501 of gear at eight thousand feet in one hundred degree heat, 0:08:57.660 --> 0:09:02.181 you know, in combat. Just insane Olympic level performance from 0:09:02.221 --> 0:09:04.461 these guys. And we're joining that group, Like, are we 0:09:04.501 --> 0:09:08.060 going to be a drag on them? Trip after trip, 0:09:08.141 --> 0:09:10.540 we of all got to know each other, and I 0:09:10.621 --> 0:09:15.021 start to feel this thing that I never felt before, 0:09:15.940 --> 0:09:20.420 which was a kind of love and loyalty for a group. 0:09:21.660 --> 0:09:25.381 And we've all felt love and loyalty to family members, 0:09:25.460 --> 0:09:28.221 to a partner, to a lover, to a friend maybe 0:09:28.381 --> 0:09:33.620 of course, but to a group. I realized, Wow, if 0:09:33.621 --> 0:09:36.501 I took a round, these guys would do whatever it 0:09:36.540 --> 0:09:42.301 took to help me, even exposing themselves to danger. I 0:09:42.341 --> 0:09:44.261 felt that feeling in me of like, wow, I'm ready 0:09:44.300 --> 0:09:46.860 to do that. I'm not going to curl up behind 0:09:46.901 --> 0:09:49.261 a tree while some guy that I care about that's 0:09:49.300 --> 0:09:53.901 in this group takes fire. That was never required of me. 0:09:54.221 --> 0:09:56.621 But I got to say that. The feeling of the 0:09:56.660 --> 0:09:59.461 certainty that I would do that, and the sort of 0:09:59.501 --> 0:10:02.101 pride I felt knowing that I would do that, there's 0:10:02.141 --> 0:10:05.021 a real pride in that, Like, Wow, I have that selflessness. 0:10:05.101 --> 0:10:08.861 I have it in me too. Who knew? This culture 0:10:08.940 --> 0:10:11.861 doesn't bring that out in people very easily, So we 0:10:11.901 --> 0:10:15.461 all walk around thinking we're selfish bastards. Were not, but 0:10:15.540 --> 0:10:19.141 the circumstances don't ask for that. Suddenly I'm in circumstances 0:10:19.501 --> 0:10:22.580 that were somewhat reproducing of our evolutionary past. I mean, 0:10:22.660 --> 0:10:25.221 humans evolved in groups of thirty forty to fifty people 0:10:25.780 --> 0:10:27.940 in a threatening environment where they had to depend on 0:10:27.981 --> 0:10:31.261 each other. That's our sweet spot, right. This was the 0:10:31.341 --> 0:10:34.660 first time I was in that kind of situation and 0:10:34.700 --> 0:10:36.901 I realized, Wow, I'm a good group member. 0:10:37.621 --> 0:10:39.820 It surprised you to think that you are a good 0:10:39.861 --> 0:10:40.420 group member. 0:10:41.021 --> 0:10:42.980 It surprised me because I was forty five and I'd 0:10:42.981 --> 0:10:45.261 never had to be before. And now I was like 0:10:45.460 --> 0:10:47.820 I became a father at fifty five, and it's a 0:10:47.861 --> 0:10:50.181 little bit of the same surprise, Like, Wow, who knew 0:10:50.300 --> 0:10:52.780 I'm a good dad and it's the most thrilling thing 0:10:53.021 --> 0:10:55.901 to feel. It was for me. And so, you know, 0:10:55.940 --> 0:10:58.981 at one point, Chosen Company, you know, like I said, 0:10:58.981 --> 0:11:00.780 they were ambush. It was a three hundred and sixty 0:11:00.780 --> 0:11:05.021 degree ambush. They took one hundred percent casualties. Tim and 0:11:05.060 --> 0:11:07.581 I talked about it, and I said, you know that 0:11:07.621 --> 0:11:09.700 could easily have been us. What are we going to 0:11:09.780 --> 0:11:12.660 do if that happens to And I said, I think 0:11:12.700 --> 0:11:16.660 we should learn first aid from the platoon medic and 0:11:16.741 --> 0:11:18.181 I think we need to be trained on all the 0:11:18.221 --> 0:11:22.741 weapons just in case, God forbid, we're in a Chosen 0:11:22.741 --> 0:11:25.940 Company kind of situation. And you know, that felt a 0:11:25.981 --> 0:11:29.341 little uncomfortable in terms of journalistic ethics, but I'm like, listen, 0:11:29.420 --> 0:11:31.941 if we're in a situation where everyone's wounded and we're 0:11:31.940 --> 0:11:35.180 all going to die, journalistic ethics are actually no longer. No, 0:11:35.221 --> 0:11:37.700 we're longer really get to vote, right, You're in survival mode. 0:11:38.221 --> 0:11:40.741 So we were trained up on all that stuff, and 0:11:40.780 --> 0:11:43.700 then I really felt like, all right, I'm in I'm 0:11:43.741 --> 0:11:46.661 really part of this. One of the things that helped 0:11:46.660 --> 0:11:48.980 is that I was not trying to write an objective 0:11:49.021 --> 0:11:52.141 analysis of the War on Terror in Afghanistan. I was 0:11:52.180 --> 0:11:55.621 trying to be as subjective as possible about what it 0:11:55.700 --> 0:11:58.621 feels like to be an American soldier. So me allowing 0:11:58.660 --> 0:12:04.421 myself the subjectivity of even arms length participation, like being 0:12:04.460 --> 0:12:07.580 trained on the weapons. You know, that sort of felt okay. 0:12:08.141 --> 0:12:11.741 But on a human level, I felt like, Oh, I'm 0:12:11.741 --> 0:12:15.141 finally a human being. I'm part of something that I 0:12:15.141 --> 0:12:17.901 would give my life for and that's been a human 0:12:17.940 --> 0:12:21.141 norm for hundreds of thousands of years. We're the only 0:12:21.180 --> 0:12:23.861 animal that does that in that sense, and it changed 0:12:23.861 --> 0:12:24.301 me forever. 0:12:25.420 --> 0:12:26.820 You know what this reminds me of. This is at 0:12:26.820 --> 0:12:31.220 a much lesser level. I've always wondered why rock musicians. 0:12:31.420 --> 0:12:34.141 This is a dumb example, but bear with me, why 0:12:34.141 --> 0:12:37.741 do they keep touring? Sometimes? They tour for years. I 0:12:37.780 --> 0:12:40.580 was watching The Last Waltz. The band tours for like 0:12:41.060 --> 0:12:44.021 seven years on the road. And then I was very 0:12:44.060 --> 0:12:47.621 briefly part of this little traveling show with a band, 0:12:47.981 --> 0:12:51.381 and we're on the bus and you'd sleep on the bus, right, 0:12:51.420 --> 0:12:54.381 and you'd drive from Indianapolis to Lexington or something right 0:12:54.460 --> 0:12:57.661 right right, And I was like, oh, like I suddenly 0:12:57.660 --> 0:13:02.501 got it, like close proximity, No, there's no your life 0:13:02.540 --> 0:13:04.661 is not a mistake, but you are in a collective 0:13:04.780 --> 0:13:06.901 enterprise where you're all depending on each other for the 0:13:06.940 --> 0:13:10.180 performance at the end of the Yeah, and it's there 0:13:10.261 --> 0:13:14.341 is something incredibly powerful about that feeling. No, if you 0:13:14.460 --> 0:13:18.980 add to that threat of life and limb, I can 0:13:19.021 --> 0:13:22.661 see you've turbocharged it and made it impossibly powerful. 0:13:23.460 --> 0:13:26.461 Absolutely, yeah, you've exactly identified it. You know. One of 0:13:26.501 --> 0:13:29.740 the things about combat about bravery, I mean as the 0:13:30.460 --> 0:13:33.341 one quality, the one virtue, the one value that you 0:13:33.420 --> 0:13:35.940 have to have out there, or you're not a member 0:13:35.981 --> 0:13:38.861 in good standing of a combat unit, you have to 0:13:38.901 --> 0:13:42.261 be selfless in your courage. The great thing about that 0:13:43.300 --> 0:13:46.981 is that you're completely self determining in that sense. Anyone 0:13:47.021 --> 0:13:50.101 can be courageous. You can be five foot two or 0:13:50.221 --> 0:13:52.981 six foot two, you can be good looking or not 0:13:53.060 --> 0:13:55.101 good looking. Your dad could be in prison or your 0:13:55.180 --> 0:13:57.621 dad can be a billionaire. It doesn't matter. You can 0:13:57.741 --> 0:14:03.101 choose to be unself concerned and courageous on behalf of others. 0:14:03.621 --> 0:14:08.300 And there is something liberating in that, and it's an 0:14:08.341 --> 0:14:14.100 amazing thing to see these young people step into that role. Think, Wow, 0:14:14.180 --> 0:14:16.381 I can just choose who I want to be. I 0:14:16.420 --> 0:14:19.781 have full access to honor and to the admiration of others. 0:14:20.181 --> 0:14:23.580 I love that that phrase full access to honor. It's 0:14:23.621 --> 0:14:24.661 a fantastic phrase. 0:14:25.061 --> 0:14:27.980 Thank you. Yeah, And it's essential because that was our 0:14:28.141 --> 0:14:32.941 evolutionary past as well. The loss of brotherhood, of connection 0:14:33.101 --> 0:14:36.580 of community, the tragic loss of adversity, I'll even put 0:14:36.621 --> 0:14:39.661 it that way. That happens when soldiers come home is 0:14:39.741 --> 0:14:42.860 extremely hard on them. Most people in the military are 0:14:42.901 --> 0:14:45.981 not getting directly traumatized by bullets going past their head 0:14:46.061 --> 0:14:47.621 or by killing people themselves. 0:14:47.701 --> 0:14:47.901 Right. 0:14:48.421 --> 0:14:50.501 You can take a platoon that was not in combat. 0:14:50.661 --> 0:14:53.661 There was like fixing stuff on an aircraft carrier, oh, whatever, right, 0:14:54.460 --> 0:14:56.661 and they will have some of the same struggles when 0:14:56.661 --> 0:14:59.980 they go home, and you know, the sort of army 0:14:59.981 --> 0:15:03.181 shrinks and the VA and all the experts are to 0:15:03.261 --> 0:15:06.061 misdiagnose things in some ways. In my humble opinion, I'm 0:15:06.061 --> 0:15:08.781 not a psychologist, but they oh, you were on a 0:15:08.861 --> 0:15:11.261 deployment and now you're struggling when you can back. You 0:15:11.261 --> 0:15:13.821 have PTSD. How do you have PTSD if you weren't 0:15:13.821 --> 0:15:17.260 in combat. How does that work. One of the traumas 0:15:17.301 --> 0:15:19.541 of the many that are on offer in a warzone 0:15:20.301 --> 0:15:23.861 is later being stripped of that human affiliation that you 0:15:23.981 --> 0:15:26.781 came to need and love. One of the traumas is 0:15:26.821 --> 0:15:29.821 actually having to leave and go home. The human norm 0:15:29.901 --> 0:15:32.421 is to be together. Now you're not because you're living 0:15:32.460 --> 0:15:34.581 in your air conditioned house in the end of a 0:15:34.621 --> 0:15:37.221 cul de sac in a suburb. One of the problems 0:15:37.221 --> 0:15:39.661 with treating this is that if you insist that it's 0:15:39.741 --> 0:15:43.620 trauma from combat, the soldiers themselves, some of them who 0:15:43.621 --> 0:15:45.141 were in combat, are going to sort of have to 0:15:45.221 --> 0:15:50.381 fabricate things that explain how alienated and depressed they now 0:15:50.421 --> 0:15:51.781 are back home. 0:15:52.541 --> 0:15:55.861 It means it's just a fascinating insight, and the notion 0:15:55.901 --> 0:15:59.261 of PTSD has been constructed in the absence of an 0:15:59.341 --> 0:16:03.181 understanding of what happens in war. I mean, obviously there's 0:16:03.221 --> 0:16:07.501 a category of people who are genuinely psychologically impaired by 0:16:07.501 --> 0:16:10.261 what they went through. But we're incapable of seeing what 0:16:10.421 --> 0:16:16.781 is beautiful and powerful in something that extreme and dangerous. 0:16:17.501 --> 0:16:19.901 And part of the problem, I think is this idea 0:16:20.181 --> 0:16:22.221 that many people have in this society, a kind of 0:16:22.221 --> 0:16:25.981 default idea that this is the best possible society. What 0:16:25.981 --> 0:16:28.501 do you mean, We've got blenders and cars et cetera, 0:16:28.501 --> 0:16:30.580 et cetera. I mean all these sort of material benefits 0:16:31.181 --> 0:16:34.340 which are indisputable, and many of them a great blessing 0:16:34.661 --> 0:16:38.500 in terms of human comfort, human dignity, human life. So 0:16:38.621 --> 0:16:40.821 it's that this is the best possible society in some 0:16:40.901 --> 0:16:43.461 ways that you know, people think that. So if the 0:16:43.501 --> 0:16:48.501 soldiers are coming back and unhappy and self destructive, they 0:16:48.580 --> 0:16:51.341 must be really messed up, and they must be really 0:16:51.341 --> 0:16:54.701 messed up by combat, because I think there's an unwillingness 0:16:54.701 --> 0:16:57.741 in our society to say, oh, maybe we are all 0:16:57.861 --> 0:17:00.861 unhappy too, And if you look at the mental health statistics, 0:17:01.021 --> 0:17:07.261 we're not doing great right, like depression, suicide, addiction, anxiety. 0:17:07.301 --> 0:17:09.741 I mean, the levels are insane for a society that 0:17:09.861 --> 0:17:12.461 is this comfortable and affluent and safe. 0:17:13.181 --> 0:17:15.541 Maybe what you mean to say is those levels are 0:17:16.021 --> 0:17:20.580 paradoxically appropriate for a society of this level of comfort 0:17:20.581 --> 0:17:23.901 and affluence, and maybe those are the disorders that arise 0:17:23.981 --> 0:17:27.301 out of a world that's been stripped of any There's 0:17:27.341 --> 0:17:31.421 that lovely phrase that psychologis use desirable difficulty. 0:17:31.461 --> 0:17:34.701 Right right, Yeah, they're entirely appropriate, but they seem to 0:17:34.701 --> 0:17:38.101 stand in conflict and contradiction to our idea of ourselves. 0:17:38.181 --> 0:17:39.221 Yeah, yeah, I. 0:17:39.221 --> 0:17:42.580 Mean soldiers on frontlines almost never kill themselves. If they 0:17:42.621 --> 0:17:44.981 commit suicide, it's when they come back. And it's not 0:17:45.021 --> 0:17:47.421 even necessarily related to the amount of combat they we're in. 0:17:47.501 --> 0:17:49.701 It's related to other things. And so then you're not 0:17:49.741 --> 0:17:52.421 going to fix it because you won't be looking at 0:17:52.541 --> 0:17:56.661 the deep alienation of our society that makes people vulnerable 0:17:56.781 --> 0:18:02.501 to suicidal impulses. There's an amazing film that was shot, 0:18:02.581 --> 0:18:04.301 I think in the late forties or right after World 0:18:04.301 --> 0:18:07.981 War Two, called The Best Years of Our Lives. It's 0:18:08.021 --> 0:18:10.661 about four or five soldiers from different units coming back 0:18:10.661 --> 0:18:13.340 on a transport plane and landing in some airfield in 0:18:13.341 --> 0:18:16.021 the Midwest. Their families don't even know they're coming home, 0:18:16.381 --> 0:18:18.301 and the first thing they do is go to a bar. 0:18:18.821 --> 0:18:20.461 So then they get into taxi and they're going to 0:18:20.581 --> 0:18:22.741 drop each other off at house after house. 0:18:23.421 --> 0:18:24.581 It's the fourth house from there. 0:18:25.861 --> 0:18:27.541 They pull up to the first guy's house and you 0:18:27.541 --> 0:18:30.261 could see the family in the windows. He hasn't seen 0:18:30.301 --> 0:18:32.461 his family in a year or two or whatever, and 0:18:32.501 --> 0:18:34.941 he doesn't want to get out of the taxi. Say 0:18:35.101 --> 0:18:37.181 how about the three of us going back to Butcher's place. 0:18:37.261 --> 0:18:38.701 They'll have a couple of drinks and then we can 0:18:38.741 --> 0:18:39.141 go home. 0:18:40.301 --> 0:18:43.261 You're home, no kid, He said, what about one more drink? 0:18:43.541 --> 0:18:45.701 And You're like, come on, man, you gotta go, and 0:18:45.781 --> 0:18:46.221 he goes. 0:18:46.701 --> 0:18:48.580 Those if I were going in to hit a beach. 0:18:49.701 --> 0:18:52.741 I feel like I'm about to hit a beach, meaning 0:18:52.901 --> 0:18:56.261 land under machine gun fire and an atoll in the 0:18:56.301 --> 0:19:00.580 South Pacific. That's what coming home to his family felt like. 0:19:01.661 --> 0:19:04.061 One of the things that people do when they're facing 0:19:04.101 --> 0:19:08.941 something hard, painful, dangerous is they consolidate into a group 0:19:09.621 --> 0:19:14.301 for protection. There was a woman I spoke with who 0:19:14.941 --> 0:19:18.661 barely survived cancer, very lucky to survive, and she said, 0:19:18.661 --> 0:19:20.981 you know what, cancer was horrible. I'm lucky to be alive. 0:19:21.581 --> 0:19:26.141 But I do miss one thing about it, the cancer 0:19:26.221 --> 0:19:30.061 ward all of us who were together in the fight 0:19:30.101 --> 0:19:33.181 of our lives and we stuck together. And she said, 0:19:33.221 --> 0:19:36.661 I miss those people. I think she missed who she 0:19:36.941 --> 0:19:40.461 was in that moment, because again she was like rising 0:19:40.461 --> 0:19:42.901 above herself and having concern for others, and they were 0:19:42.901 --> 0:19:43.661 all doing that. 0:19:44.541 --> 0:20:02.781 It's like a drug, it's a passion. How old are 0:20:02.821 --> 0:20:03.261 your children. 0:20:03.661 --> 0:20:05.661 They're nine and six, two little girls. 0:20:06.061 --> 0:20:09.301 I also an older dad. I have four and two 0:20:09.421 --> 0:20:12.461 two little girls. Congratulates since I think and gracious and 0:20:12.501 --> 0:20:16.141 to you as well, we're in the same position. So 0:20:16.181 --> 0:20:20.661 I'm curious the things that you have explored in books 0:20:20.741 --> 0:20:23.341 like this, How does that change the way you parents 0:20:23.381 --> 0:20:26.781 your daughters. Have you thought about? How can you give 0:20:26.821 --> 0:20:29.261 them this thing that you've identified as being so important, 0:20:29.261 --> 0:20:34.141 which is this sense of community and desirable difficulty and 0:20:34.941 --> 0:20:37.021 finding meaning and adversity. How do you give them that? 0:20:37.581 --> 0:20:39.101 You know, the first thing we did was not have 0:20:39.181 --> 0:20:41.541 them grow up in an upper middle class community. I 0:20:41.581 --> 0:20:44.621 grew up in a pretty affluent suburb of Boston where 0:20:44.661 --> 0:20:47.301 we didn't know our neighbors particularly well. They're all perfectly 0:20:47.381 --> 0:20:50.861 nice people. We certainly didn't depend on them for anything existential, 0:20:50.901 --> 0:20:52.461 like can you help us fix the roof we got 0:20:52.461 --> 0:20:55.580 a leak, right, And certainly we weren't joining together to 0:20:55.581 --> 0:20:57.261 fight the rebels that were coming down the road and 0:20:57.261 --> 0:21:00.461 pick up drugs. All those forms of human adversity that 0:21:00.541 --> 0:21:04.661 people have bonded together to overcome utterly absent from the 0:21:04.701 --> 0:21:07.181 community that I grew up in. So we live in 0:21:07.221 --> 0:21:11.101 a mixed income but mostly lower income neighborhood and out 0:21:11.101 --> 0:21:14.381 of Manhattan. The building's mostly Spanish speaking is a five 0:21:14.421 --> 0:21:16.781 story tenement and we live on the four of us 0:21:16.821 --> 0:21:20.741 in five hundred square feet. So they're part of the community. 0:21:21.021 --> 0:21:23.981 They are part of that social fabric which is so crucial. 0:21:24.541 --> 0:21:26.901 You know, is it the Sioux nation on the northern 0:21:26.901 --> 0:21:29.100 Great Plains in eighteen eighty No, it's not right, but 0:21:29.141 --> 0:21:32.861 it's for our world in context. It's sort of as 0:21:32.861 --> 0:21:36.701 close as we can get. They have extremely limited access 0:21:36.741 --> 0:21:39.541 to screens. They have no use of an iPhone. It's 0:21:39.661 --> 0:21:41.421 they get a little bit of time on the laptop 0:21:41.501 --> 0:21:44.101 to watch some child programming or do du a lingo 0:21:44.221 --> 0:21:48.901 or what have you. But the interactive touchscreen, they're completely 0:21:49.101 --> 0:21:53.701 separated from it. And we also we co sleep right. 0:21:53.741 --> 0:21:56.541 We have a big pad on the floor and they 0:21:56.541 --> 0:21:58.580 have little bunk beds too in a different room and 0:21:58.621 --> 0:22:00.421 they can sleep there when they want. Sometimes they do, 0:22:00.501 --> 0:22:02.221 but mostly we sort of sleep in a big pile. 0:22:02.261 --> 0:22:03.941 And I've been sort of questioned about this by my 0:22:04.061 --> 0:22:06.461