1 00:00:17,101 --> 00:00:27,981 Speaker 1: Pushkin. I'm Malcolm Glabel and I'm back this week for 2 00:00:28,021 --> 00:00:31,501 Speaker 1: a special bonus episode of Medal of Honor, Stories of Courage. 3 00:00:31,781 --> 00:00:35,301 Speaker 1: We're sitting down with Sebastian Younger. Younger is the author 4 00:00:35,301 --> 00:00:36,741 Speaker 1: of many books, but the one we're going to be 5 00:00:36,781 --> 00:00:41,061 Speaker 1: talking about today is Tribe on Homecoming and Belonging, which 6 00:00:41,101 --> 00:00:43,981 Speaker 1: came out ten years ago but seems more relevant than ever. 7 00:00:45,021 --> 00:00:48,581 Speaker 1: Younger spent years embedded with American soldiers during the Afghan War, 8 00:00:48,941 --> 00:00:51,740 Speaker 1: and in Tribe, he explores what happened to those soldiers 9 00:00:51,741 --> 00:00:54,701 Speaker 1: when they were in Afghanistan and also what happened when 10 00:00:54,700 --> 00:00:57,661 Speaker 1: they came home. I should point out that I am 11 00:00:57,781 --> 00:01:01,101 Speaker 1: a huge fan of Sebastian Younger's I think he's easily 12 00:01:01,141 --> 00:01:04,140 Speaker 1: one of the greatest nonfiction writers of my generation. And 13 00:01:04,221 --> 00:01:07,261 Speaker 1: this conversation was everything I had hoped it would be. 14 00:01:08,101 --> 00:01:13,661 Speaker 1: Enjoy Hi, Sebastian, how you doing. 15 00:01:14,301 --> 00:01:15,741 Speaker 2: Hey good, it's nice to meet you. 16 00:01:15,981 --> 00:01:17,580 Speaker 1: I'm looking forward to this. Thank you for doing this. 17 00:01:18,140 --> 00:01:20,460 Speaker 2: Oh it's a honor. Thank you. I'm really looking forward 18 00:01:20,461 --> 00:01:20,700 Speaker 2: to it. 19 00:01:21,461 --> 00:01:23,901 Speaker 1: So we want to talk about Tribe, which is your 20 00:01:23,901 --> 00:01:27,020 Speaker 1: book from what almost ten years ago. I loved that book. 21 00:01:27,060 --> 00:01:29,500 Speaker 1: I thought it was. I'm a big fan of yours 22 00:01:29,500 --> 00:01:31,221 Speaker 1: in general, but that was I thought that book was 23 00:01:31,261 --> 00:01:31,981 Speaker 1: something special. 24 00:01:32,381 --> 00:01:35,420 Speaker 2: Thank you so much. It's still selling, which means people 25 00:01:35,461 --> 00:01:36,181 Speaker 2: are so lonely. 26 00:01:37,780 --> 00:01:40,741 Speaker 1: I was just curious how you came to write that book, 27 00:01:40,780 --> 00:01:43,500 Speaker 1: what was your what led you into that subject. 28 00:01:44,140 --> 00:01:46,060 Speaker 2: You know. I'd been a war reporter for a long time, 29 00:01:46,381 --> 00:01:48,981 Speaker 2: starting in Bosnia in nineteen ninety three, a bunch of 30 00:01:49,021 --> 00:01:54,061 Speaker 2: civil wars West Africa, and I was very very compelled 31 00:01:54,061 --> 00:01:56,300 Speaker 2: by Afghanistan. Had been going there for years since the 32 00:01:56,341 --> 00:02:00,421 Speaker 2: mid nineties, and eventually I was with American forces in 33 00:02:00,461 --> 00:02:04,221 Speaker 2: eastern Afghanistan at a little outpost called Rastreppo. I was 34 00:02:04,261 --> 00:02:08,300 Speaker 2: out at Ristreppo with a wonderful photographer named Tim Heatherington. 35 00:02:08,941 --> 00:02:10,460 Speaker 2: I was out there off and on for a year. 36 00:02:11,181 --> 00:02:13,781 Speaker 2: Was the forty man position. It was all men out 37 00:02:13,781 --> 00:02:16,901 Speaker 2: there on this ridge. We were getting shot at just 38 00:02:16,941 --> 00:02:18,900 Speaker 2: about every day. There was a lot of combat, a 39 00:02:18,981 --> 00:02:21,981 Speaker 2: lot of casualties. Totally cut off from the outside world, 40 00:02:22,701 --> 00:02:26,781 Speaker 2: very very hard place. When the guys got back, they 41 00:02:26,821 --> 00:02:30,981 Speaker 2: all got really depressed. All the things they interest young men, right, 42 00:02:31,101 --> 00:02:34,941 Speaker 2: young women, television, cars, sports, all this stuff that civilization 43 00:02:35,061 --> 00:02:37,941 Speaker 2: has to offer for them. They weren't interested, and they 44 00:02:37,981 --> 00:02:39,941 Speaker 2: started to talk about how they wanted to go back 45 00:02:39,981 --> 00:02:43,981 Speaker 2: to Afghanistan, and I was asked about that in an interview. 46 00:02:44,421 --> 00:02:46,981 Speaker 2: Basically the question was like, what's wrong with these guys, 47 00:02:47,741 --> 00:02:51,261 Speaker 2: Like what's their problem? And just intuitively I said, you know, 48 00:02:50,861 --> 00:02:53,941 Speaker 2: I don't think they have the problem. I think they're 49 00:02:53,981 --> 00:02:58,461 Speaker 2: coming back to a society, our society, which is sort 50 00:02:58,461 --> 00:03:02,821 Speaker 2: of socially desolate and very hard to find a meaningful connection, 51 00:03:02,981 --> 00:03:06,741 Speaker 2: meaningful community, to make sacrifices for it to be part of, 52 00:03:06,861 --> 00:03:09,541 Speaker 2: to depend on. They have all that in spades out 53 00:03:09,581 --> 00:03:12,261 Speaker 2: at Ristrepo, and they wanted to go back to the 54 00:03:12,301 --> 00:03:15,301 Speaker 2: real thing. And I said, actually, their desire to go 55 00:03:15,381 --> 00:03:18,821 Speaker 2: back in somebody shows their mental health rather than some 56 00:03:18,941 --> 00:03:22,781 Speaker 2: kind of psychological struggle. And then, as an anthropologist I 57 00:03:22,821 --> 00:03:25,541 Speaker 2: started to think about that question of what are people 58 00:03:25,661 --> 00:03:30,021 Speaker 2: drawn to, and over and over again the answer is community, 59 00:03:30,061 --> 00:03:34,541 Speaker 2: and that clearly reflects our evolutionary reality as social primates, 60 00:03:34,581 --> 00:03:37,981 Speaker 2: and that we survive in groups, not by ourselves. And 61 00:03:38,061 --> 00:03:42,061 Speaker 2: that began the sort of central thesis of tribe, which 62 00:03:42,101 --> 00:03:45,341 Speaker 2: is really, in some ways the worst trauma, the worst hardship, 63 00:03:45,581 --> 00:03:48,901 Speaker 2: is to be unconnected to others I. 64 00:03:48,861 --> 00:03:50,781 Speaker 1: Want to go back to when you were in Afghanistan 65 00:03:51,061 --> 00:03:54,621 Speaker 1: with that group of guys on that ridge. Were the 66 00:03:54,621 --> 00:03:59,101 Speaker 1: things that you observed afterwards, the fact that these men 67 00:03:59,301 --> 00:04:02,501 Speaker 1: longed for community. Did you see evidence of that when 68 00:04:02,541 --> 00:04:05,061 Speaker 1: you were actually in combat in Afghanistan? 69 00:04:05,661 --> 00:04:08,861 Speaker 2: Well, I mean structurally, yes, we were stuck on a 70 00:04:08,901 --> 00:04:12,021 Speaker 2: hilltop and everyone dependent on everyone to sort of do 71 00:04:12,101 --> 00:04:14,501 Speaker 2: their jobs, including me as a journalist, and my job 72 00:04:14,861 --> 00:04:17,020 Speaker 2: was basically to not like screw up and cause a 73 00:04:17,061 --> 00:04:19,821 Speaker 2: problem that they had to fix. Right, And I'd been 74 00:04:19,861 --> 00:04:21,421 Speaker 2: in a lot of combat. I was in good shape, 75 00:04:21,541 --> 00:04:23,741 Speaker 2: you know. I felt confident I could do my job 76 00:04:23,781 --> 00:04:28,061 Speaker 2: in that sense. Emotionally, yeah, I mean it's really interesting 77 00:04:28,101 --> 00:04:31,301 Speaker 2: to be in a situation where you're never away from 78 00:04:31,621 --> 00:04:34,941 Speaker 2: the people in your community, even for a minute. Like 79 00:04:35,221 --> 00:04:37,621 Speaker 2: I mean where we slept in these little plywood hooches 80 00:04:37,621 --> 00:04:39,940 Speaker 2: that they knocked together. They had these sort of like 81 00:04:40,021 --> 00:04:42,221 Speaker 2: rickety bunks that they built, and I could reach out 82 00:04:42,261 --> 00:04:44,781 Speaker 2: with my arm and touch three other men. I mean, 83 00:04:44,781 --> 00:04:48,741 Speaker 2: we're like we're on a submarine. The level of familiarity, 84 00:04:49,221 --> 00:04:51,901 Speaker 2: you know, it's all men, right, So the love is 85 00:04:51,981 --> 00:04:56,821 Speaker 2: expressed in extremely rough ways, but love it is, and 86 00:04:56,901 --> 00:04:59,141 Speaker 2: you could see that in combat for their concern for 87 00:04:59,181 --> 00:05:03,541 Speaker 2: each other, and they're concerned that completely at times when needed, 88 00:05:03,661 --> 00:05:07,781 Speaker 2: eclipsed their own fear, their own self interest. And you know, 89 00:05:07,821 --> 00:05:09,941 Speaker 2: the young men they get in a fight, into conflicts 90 00:05:09,981 --> 00:05:12,941 Speaker 2: like it's not like it was all wonderful, but it 91 00:05:12,981 --> 00:05:17,101 Speaker 2: didn't matter. The thing about brotherhood, as eyewitnessed it out, 92 00:05:17,141 --> 00:05:22,381 Speaker 2: there was unlike friendship. Brotherhood was totally independent of how 93 00:05:22,381 --> 00:05:24,501 Speaker 2: you felt about the other person had nothing to do 94 00:05:24,541 --> 00:05:27,221 Speaker 2: with it. You might like the guy, you might not 95 00:05:27,341 --> 00:05:28,901 Speaker 2: like the guy, you might not be able to stand 96 00:05:28,941 --> 00:05:32,941 Speaker 2: the guy, but he's your brother. You will do anything 97 00:05:33,021 --> 00:05:35,501 Speaker 2: for him because he would do anything for you. As 98 00:05:35,581 --> 00:05:37,621 Speaker 2: the end of the sentence, do. 99 00:05:37,501 --> 00:05:40,821 Speaker 1: You have any specific memories of that time that kind 100 00:05:40,821 --> 00:05:43,861 Speaker 1: of illustrate that. Do you see anything that you're like, Oh, 101 00:05:43,901 --> 00:05:46,101 Speaker 1: in retrospect, that's what brotherhood looks like. 102 00:05:46,981 --> 00:05:51,541 Speaker 2: I mean, in combat, the guys were largely utterly un 103 00:05:51,541 --> 00:05:54,501 Speaker 2: self concerned. They did their jobs, and by their jobs, 104 00:05:54,541 --> 00:05:56,661 Speaker 2: I don't mean their roles that were sort of like 105 00:05:56,741 --> 00:06:00,381 Speaker 2: handed down by the military, their jobs as they themselves 106 00:06:00,501 --> 00:06:03,781 Speaker 2: understood their jobs to be, which meant being an effective 107 00:06:03,861 --> 00:06:06,741 Speaker 2: combatant and ignoring the incoming rounds. I can't tell you 108 00:06:06,821 --> 00:06:09,541 Speaker 2: how hard it is to ignore bullets they're going past 109 00:06:09,541 --> 00:06:12,461 Speaker 2: your head. It's almost impossible. But if you don't ignore 110 00:06:12,501 --> 00:06:14,861 Speaker 2: them and stick your head up above the sandbag and 111 00:06:14,861 --> 00:06:19,501 Speaker 2: shoot back, everyone's gonna die. You cannot just cower. And 112 00:06:19,621 --> 00:06:24,061 Speaker 2: doing that is an incredible act of sort of self negation. 113 00:06:24,981 --> 00:06:27,661 Speaker 2: And if everyone does that, then there's a much greater 114 00:06:27,781 --> 00:06:31,941 Speaker 2: chance that everyone's gonna be okay. Chosen company one valot 115 00:06:31,941 --> 00:06:34,821 Speaker 2: to the north. They got mauled several times. They had 116 00:06:34,821 --> 00:06:38,341 Speaker 2: one firefight where they took one hundred percent casualties. First 117 00:06:38,341 --> 00:06:42,141 Speaker 2: platoon walked into an L shaped ambush and took six 118 00:06:42,181 --> 00:06:44,461 Speaker 2: casualties in the first few seconds, I think it was. 119 00:06:45,061 --> 00:06:47,460 Speaker 2: And one of those young men was named sal Junta, 120 00:06:47,501 --> 00:06:50,221 Speaker 2: and he was the first living Medal of Honor recipient 121 00:06:50,301 --> 00:06:53,940 Speaker 2: since Vietnam. I mean. Junta ran forward, throwing hand grenades 122 00:06:53,981 --> 00:06:57,261 Speaker 2: because they were dragging off his wounded Fred. They the 123 00:06:57,261 --> 00:07:01,301 Speaker 2: Taliban down a hillside into the darkness, and Shutta had 124 00:07:01,381 --> 00:07:05,181 Speaker 2: bullets impacting his body armor, and he ran forward. He 125 00:07:05,301 --> 00:07:07,940 Speaker 2: killed the guys who were dragging away his brother and 126 00:07:08,101 --> 00:07:11,781 Speaker 2: administered first aid until more soldiers got there. You know, 127 00:07:11,861 --> 00:07:14,181 Speaker 2: dragging your wounded friend out of the line of fire. 128 00:07:14,301 --> 00:07:18,221 Speaker 2: I mean, that's a powerful, powerful relationship, and I think 129 00:07:18,261 --> 00:07:22,541 Speaker 2: an ancient one that only arises in the circumstances that 130 00:07:22,621 --> 00:07:29,301 Speaker 2: require it for survival. That's an act of loyalty that 131 00:07:29,461 --> 00:07:31,541 Speaker 2: is hard to find in the civilian world, and that 132 00:07:31,621 --> 00:07:34,621 Speaker 2: if you experience it, it's missed, even though the things 133 00:07:34,701 --> 00:07:40,141 Speaker 2: that make those acts necessary are horrific beyond description. This 134 00:07:40,181 --> 00:07:42,421 Speaker 2: one guy said to me, Brendan o'bern, who's still a good, 135 00:07:42,501 --> 00:07:45,821 Speaker 2: good friend of mine. He said, you know, Sebastian is strange. 136 00:07:45,901 --> 00:07:48,061 Speaker 2: There's guys in the platoon who straight up hate each other, 137 00:07:48,581 --> 00:07:52,541 Speaker 2: but we would all die for each other. Later, I 138 00:07:52,741 --> 00:07:55,021 Speaker 2: kept thinking about that sentence, and I thought, Wow, no 139 00:07:55,061 --> 00:07:57,381 Speaker 2: matter how nice life is back in the United States, 140 00:07:58,461 --> 00:07:59,981 Speaker 2: if you're one of those young men, you are no 141 00:08:00,101 --> 00:08:19,501 Speaker 2: longer in a group that you can say that about. 142 00:08:20,821 --> 00:08:23,981 Speaker 1: It's a passion. When you were in Afghanistan, what impact 143 00:08:24,061 --> 00:08:27,061 Speaker 1: did it have on you to be in that environment? 144 00:08:27,181 --> 00:08:29,261 Speaker 1: Did you develop the same kind of bonds to the 145 00:08:29,301 --> 00:08:31,101 Speaker 1: soldiers as they were developing to each other. 146 00:08:32,021 --> 00:08:35,101 Speaker 2: I did, and it was interesting because it wasn't immediate. 147 00:08:35,141 --> 00:08:37,021 Speaker 2: How could it be, You know, you're the new kid 148 00:08:37,021 --> 00:08:39,461 Speaker 2: in high school and it takes a while to make friends. 149 00:08:39,461 --> 00:08:43,021 Speaker 2: And we're twice their age. We're journalists, we're not soldiers. 150 00:08:43,580 --> 00:08:45,700 Speaker 2: Are we going to be a liability? Can we keep 151 00:08:45,780 --> 00:08:47,740 Speaker 2: up on the You know it was brutal. It was 152 00:08:47,780 --> 00:08:49,780 Speaker 2: all foot movement, right, it was all on foot. That 153 00:08:50,141 --> 00:08:52,821 Speaker 2: guys were carrying eighty ninety one hundred and twenty pounds 154 00:08:53,300 --> 00:08:57,501 Speaker 2: of gear at eight thousand feet in one hundred degree heat, 155 00:08:57,660 --> 00:09:02,181 Speaker 2: you know, in combat. Just insane Olympic level performance from 156 00:09:02,221 --> 00:09:04,461 Speaker 2: these guys. And we're joining that group, Like, are we 157 00:09:04,501 --> 00:09:08,060 Speaker 2: going to be a drag on them? Trip after trip, 158 00:09:08,141 --> 00:09:10,540 Speaker 2: we of all got to know each other, and I 159 00:09:10,621 --> 00:09:15,021 Speaker 2: start to feel this thing that I never felt before, 160 00:09:15,940 --> 00:09:20,420 Speaker 2: which was a kind of love and loyalty for a group. 161 00:09:21,660 --> 00:09:25,381 Speaker 2: And we've all felt love and loyalty to family members, 162 00:09:25,460 --> 00:09:28,221 Speaker 2: to a partner, to a lover, to a friend maybe 163 00:09:28,381 --> 00:09:33,620 Speaker 2: of course, but to a group. I realized, Wow, if 164 00:09:33,621 --> 00:09:36,501 Speaker 2: I took a round, these guys would do whatever it 165 00:09:36,540 --> 00:09:42,301 Speaker 2: took to help me, even exposing themselves to danger. I 166 00:09:42,341 --> 00:09:44,261 Speaker 2: felt that feeling in me of like, wow, I'm ready 167 00:09:44,300 --> 00:09:46,860 Speaker 2: to do that. I'm not going to curl up behind 168 00:09:46,901 --> 00:09:49,261 Speaker 2: a tree while some guy that I care about that's 169 00:09:49,300 --> 00:09:53,901 Speaker 2: in this group takes fire. That was never required of me. 170 00:09:54,221 --> 00:09:56,621 Speaker 2: But I got to say that. The feeling of the 171 00:09:56,660 --> 00:09:59,461 Speaker 2: certainty that I would do that, and the sort of 172 00:09:59,501 --> 00:10:02,101 Speaker 2: pride I felt knowing that I would do that, there's 173 00:10:02,141 --> 00:10:05,021 Speaker 2: a real pride in that, Like, Wow, I have that selflessness. 174 00:10:05,101 --> 00:10:08,861 Speaker 2: I have it in me too. Who knew? This culture 175 00:10:08,940 --> 00:10:11,861 Speaker 2: doesn't bring that out in people very easily, So we 176 00:10:11,901 --> 00:10:15,461 Speaker 2: all walk around thinking we're selfish bastards. Were not, but 177 00:10:15,540 --> 00:10:19,141 Speaker 2: the circumstances don't ask for that. Suddenly I'm in circumstances 178 00:10:19,501 --> 00:10:22,580 Speaker 2: that were somewhat reproducing of our evolutionary past. I mean, 179 00:10:22,660 --> 00:10:25,221 Speaker 2: humans evolved in groups of thirty forty to fifty people 180 00:10:25,780 --> 00:10:27,940 Speaker 2: in a threatening environment where they had to depend on 181 00:10:27,981 --> 00:10:31,261 Speaker 2: each other. That's our sweet spot, right. This was the 182 00:10:31,341 --> 00:10:34,660 Speaker 2: first time I was in that kind of situation and 183 00:10:34,700 --> 00:10:36,901 Speaker 2: I realized, Wow, I'm a good group member. 184 00:10:37,621 --> 00:10:39,820 Speaker 1: It surprised you to think that you are a good 185 00:10:39,861 --> 00:10:40,420 Speaker 1: group member. 186 00:10:41,021 --> 00:10:42,980 Speaker 2: It surprised me because I was forty five and I'd 187 00:10:42,981 --> 00:10:45,261 Speaker 2: never had to be before. And now I was like 188 00:10:45,460 --> 00:10:47,820 Speaker 2: I became a father at fifty five, and it's a 189 00:10:47,861 --> 00:10:50,181 Speaker 2: little bit of the same surprise, Like, Wow, who knew 190 00:10:50,300 --> 00:10:52,780 Speaker 2: I'm a good dad and it's the most thrilling thing 191 00:10:53,021 --> 00:10:55,901 Speaker 2: to feel. It was for me. And so, you know, 192 00:10:55,940 --> 00:10:58,981 Speaker 2: at one point, Chosen Company, you know, like I said, 193 00:10:58,981 --> 00:11:00,780 Speaker 2: they were ambush. It was a three hundred and sixty 194 00:11:00,780 --> 00:11:05,021 Speaker 2: degree ambush. They took one hundred percent casualties. Tim and 195 00:11:05,060 --> 00:11:07,581 Speaker 2: I talked about it, and I said, you know that 196 00:11:07,621 --> 00:11:09,700 Speaker 2: could easily have been us. What are we going to 197 00:11:09,780 --> 00:11:12,660 Speaker 2: do if that happens to And I said, I think 198 00:11:12,700 --> 00:11:16,660 Speaker 2: we should learn first aid from the platoon medic and 199 00:11:16,741 --> 00:11:18,181 Speaker 2: I think we need to be trained on all the 200 00:11:18,221 --> 00:11:22,741 Speaker 2: weapons just in case, God forbid, we're in a Chosen 201 00:11:22,741 --> 00:11:25,940 Speaker 2: Company kind of situation. And you know, that felt a 202 00:11:25,981 --> 00:11:29,341 Speaker 2: little uncomfortable in terms of journalistic ethics, but I'm like, listen, 203 00:11:29,420 --> 00:11:31,941 Speaker 2: if we're in a situation where everyone's wounded and we're 204 00:11:31,940 --> 00:11:35,180 Speaker 2: all going to die, journalistic ethics are actually no longer. No, 205 00:11:35,221 --> 00:11:37,700 Speaker 2: we're longer really get to vote, right, You're in survival mode. 206 00:11:38,221 --> 00:11:40,741 Speaker 2: So we were trained up on all that stuff, and 207 00:11:40,780 --> 00:11:43,700 Speaker 2: then I really felt like, all right, I'm in I'm 208 00:11:43,741 --> 00:11:46,661 Speaker 2: really part of this. One of the things that helped 209 00:11:46,660 --> 00:11:48,980 Speaker 2: is that I was not trying to write an objective 210 00:11:49,021 --> 00:11:52,141 Speaker 2: analysis of the War on Terror in Afghanistan. I was 211 00:11:52,180 --> 00:11:55,621 Speaker 2: trying to be as subjective as possible about what it 212 00:11:55,700 --> 00:11:58,621 Speaker 2: feels like to be an American soldier. So me allowing 213 00:11:58,660 --> 00:12:04,421 Speaker 2: myself the subjectivity of even arms length participation, like being 214 00:12:04,460 --> 00:12:07,580 Speaker 2: trained on the weapons. You know, that sort of felt okay. 215 00:12:08,141 --> 00:12:11,741 Speaker 2: But on a human level, I felt like, Oh, I'm 216 00:12:11,741 --> 00:12:15,141 Speaker 2: finally a human being. I'm part of something that I 217 00:12:15,141 --> 00:12:17,901 Speaker 2: would give my life for and that's been a human 218 00:12:17,940 --> 00:12:21,141 Speaker 2: norm for hundreds of thousands of years. We're the only 219 00:12:21,180 --> 00:12:23,861 Speaker 2: animal that does that in that sense, and it changed 220 00:12:23,861 --> 00:12:24,301 Speaker 2: me forever. 221 00:12:25,420 --> 00:12:26,820 Speaker 1: You know what this reminds me of. This is at 222 00:12:26,820 --> 00:12:31,220 Speaker 1: a much lesser level. I've always wondered why rock musicians. 223 00:12:31,420 --> 00:12:34,141 Speaker 1: This is a dumb example, but bear with me, why 224 00:12:34,141 --> 00:12:37,741 Speaker 1: do they keep touring? Sometimes? They tour for years. I 225 00:12:37,780 --> 00:12:40,580 Speaker 1: was watching The Last Waltz. The band tours for like 226 00:12:41,060 --> 00:12:44,021 Speaker 1: seven years on the road. And then I was very 227 00:12:44,060 --> 00:12:47,621 Speaker 1: briefly part of this little traveling show with a band, 228 00:12:47,981 --> 00:12:51,381 Speaker 1: and we're on the bus and you'd sleep on the bus, right, 229 00:12:51,420 --> 00:12:54,381 Speaker 1: and you'd drive from Indianapolis to Lexington or something right 230 00:12:54,460 --> 00:12:57,661 Speaker 1: right right, And I was like, oh, like I suddenly 231 00:12:57,660 --> 00:13:02,501 Speaker 1: got it, like close proximity, No, there's no your life 232 00:13:02,540 --> 00:13:04,661 Speaker 1: is not a mistake, but you are in a collective 233 00:13:04,780 --> 00:13:06,901 Speaker 1: enterprise where you're all depending on each other for the 234 00:13:06,940 --> 00:13:10,180 Speaker 1: performance at the end of the Yeah, and it's there 235 00:13:10,261 --> 00:13:14,341 Speaker 1: is something incredibly powerful about that feeling. No, if you 236 00:13:14,460 --> 00:13:18,980 Speaker 1: add to that threat of life and limb, I can 237 00:13:19,021 --> 00:13:22,661 Speaker 1: see you've turbocharged it and made it impossibly powerful. 238 00:13:23,460 --> 00:13:26,461 Speaker 2: Absolutely, yeah, you've exactly identified it. You know. One of 239 00:13:26,501 --> 00:13:29,740 Speaker 2: the things about combat about bravery, I mean as the 240 00:13:30,460 --> 00:13:33,341 Speaker 2: one quality, the one virtue, the one value that you 241 00:13:33,420 --> 00:13:35,940 Speaker 2: have to have out there, or you're not a member 242 00:13:35,981 --> 00:13:38,861 Speaker 2: in good standing of a combat unit, you have to 243 00:13:38,901 --> 00:13:42,261 Speaker 2: be selfless in your courage. The great thing about that 244 00:13:43,300 --> 00:13:46,981 Speaker 2: is that you're completely self determining in that sense. Anyone 245 00:13:47,021 --> 00:13:50,101 Speaker 2: can be courageous. You can be five foot two or 246 00:13:50,221 --> 00:13:52,981 Speaker 2: six foot two, you can be good looking or not 247 00:13:53,060 --> 00:13:55,101 Speaker 2: good looking. Your dad could be in prison or your 248 00:13:55,180 --> 00:13:57,621 Speaker 2: dad can be a billionaire. It doesn't matter. You can 249 00:13:57,741 --> 00:14:03,101 Speaker 2: choose to be unself concerned and courageous on behalf of others. 250 00:14:03,621 --> 00:14:08,300 Speaker 2: And there is something liberating in that, and it's an 251 00:14:08,341 --> 00:14:14,100 Speaker 2: amazing thing to see these young people step into that role. Think, Wow, 252 00:14:14,180 --> 00:14:16,381 Speaker 2: I can just choose who I want to be. I 253 00:14:16,420 --> 00:14:19,781 Speaker 2: have full access to honor and to the admiration of others. 254 00:14:20,181 --> 00:14:23,580 Speaker 1: I love that that phrase full access to honor. It's 255 00:14:23,621 --> 00:14:24,661 Speaker 1: a fantastic phrase. 256 00:14:25,061 --> 00:14:27,980 Speaker 2: Thank you. Yeah, And it's essential because that was our 257 00:14:28,141 --> 00:14:32,941 Speaker 2: evolutionary past as well. The loss of brotherhood, of connection 258 00:14:33,101 --> 00:14:36,580 Speaker 2: of community, the tragic loss of adversity, I'll even put 259 00:14:36,621 --> 00:14:39,661 Speaker 2: it that way. That happens when soldiers come home is 260 00:14:39,741 --> 00:14:42,860 Speaker 2: extremely hard on them. Most people in the military are 261 00:14:42,901 --> 00:14:45,981 Speaker 2: not getting directly traumatized by bullets going past their head 262 00:14:46,061 --> 00:14:47,621 Speaker 2: or by killing people themselves. 263 00:14:47,701 --> 00:14:47,901 Speaker 1: Right. 264 00:14:48,421 --> 00:14:50,501 Speaker 2: You can take a platoon that was not in combat. 265 00:14:50,661 --> 00:14:53,661 Speaker 2: There was like fixing stuff on an aircraft carrier, oh, whatever, right, 266 00:14:54,460 --> 00:14:56,661 Speaker 2: and they will have some of the same struggles when 267 00:14:56,661 --> 00:14:59,980 Speaker 2: they go home, and you know, the sort of army 268 00:14:59,981 --> 00:15:03,181 Speaker 2: shrinks and the VA and all the experts are to 269 00:15:03,261 --> 00:15:06,061 Speaker 2: misdiagnose things in some ways. In my humble opinion, I'm 270 00:15:06,061 --> 00:15:08,781 Speaker 2: not a psychologist, but they oh, you were on a 271 00:15:08,861 --> 00:15:11,261 Speaker 2: deployment and now you're struggling when you can back. You 272 00:15:11,261 --> 00:15:13,821 Speaker 2: have PTSD. How do you have PTSD if you weren't 273 00:15:13,821 --> 00:15:17,260 Speaker 2: in combat. How does that work. One of the traumas 274 00:15:17,301 --> 00:15:19,541 Speaker 2: of the many that are on offer in a warzone 275 00:15:20,301 --> 00:15:23,861 Speaker 2: is later being stripped of that human affiliation that you 276 00:15:23,981 --> 00:15:26,781 Speaker 2: came to need and love. One of the traumas is 277 00:15:26,821 --> 00:15:29,821 Speaker 2: actually having to leave and go home. The human norm 278 00:15:29,901 --> 00:15:32,421 Speaker 2: is to be together. Now you're not because you're living 279 00:15:32,460 --> 00:15:34,581 Speaker 2: in your air conditioned house in the end of a 280 00:15:34,621 --> 00:15:37,221 Speaker 2: cul de sac in a suburb. One of the problems 281 00:15:37,221 --> 00:15:39,661 Speaker 2: with treating this is that if you insist that it's 282 00:15:39,741 --> 00:15:43,620 Speaker 2: trauma from combat, the soldiers themselves, some of them who 283 00:15:43,621 --> 00:15:45,141 Speaker 2: were in combat, are going to sort of have to 284 00:15:45,221 --> 00:15:50,381 Speaker 2: fabricate things that explain how alienated and depressed they now 285 00:15:50,421 --> 00:15:51,781 Speaker 2: are back home. 286 00:15:52,541 --> 00:15:55,861 Speaker 1: It means it's just a fascinating insight, and the notion 287 00:15:55,901 --> 00:15:59,261 Speaker 1: of PTSD has been constructed in the absence of an 288 00:15:59,341 --> 00:16:03,181 Speaker 1: understanding of what happens in war. I mean, obviously there's 289 00:16:03,221 --> 00:16:07,501 Speaker 1: a category of people who are genuinely psychologically impaired by 290 00:16:07,501 --> 00:16:10,261 Speaker 1: what they went through. But we're incapable of seeing what 291 00:16:10,421 --> 00:16:16,781 Speaker 1: is beautiful and powerful in something that extreme and dangerous. 292 00:16:17,501 --> 00:16:19,901 Speaker 2: And part of the problem, I think is this idea 293 00:16:20,181 --> 00:16:22,221 Speaker 2: that many people have in this society, a kind of 294 00:16:22,221 --> 00:16:25,981 Speaker 2: default idea that this is the best possible society. What 295 00:16:25,981 --> 00:16:28,501 Speaker 2: do you mean, We've got blenders and cars et cetera, 296 00:16:28,501 --> 00:16:30,580 Speaker 2: et cetera. I mean all these sort of material benefits 297 00:16:31,181 --> 00:16:34,340 Speaker 2: which are indisputable, and many of them a great blessing 298 00:16:34,661 --> 00:16:38,500 Speaker 2: in terms of human comfort, human dignity, human life. So 299 00:16:38,621 --> 00:16:40,821 Speaker 2: it's that this is the best possible society in some 300 00:16:40,901 --> 00:16:43,461 Speaker 2: ways that you know, people think that. So if the 301 00:16:43,501 --> 00:16:48,501 Speaker 2: soldiers are coming back and unhappy and self destructive, they 302 00:16:48,580 --> 00:16:51,341 Speaker 2: must be really messed up, and they must be really 303 00:16:51,341 --> 00:16:54,701 Speaker 2: messed up by combat, because I think there's an unwillingness 304 00:16:54,701 --> 00:16:57,741 Speaker 2: in our society to say, oh, maybe we are all 305 00:16:57,861 --> 00:17:00,861 Speaker 2: unhappy too, And if you look at the mental health statistics, 306 00:17:01,021 --> 00:17:07,261 Speaker 2: we're not doing great right, like depression, suicide, addiction, anxiety. 307 00:17:07,301 --> 00:17:09,741 Speaker 2: I mean, the levels are insane for a society that 308 00:17:09,861 --> 00:17:12,461 Speaker 2: is this comfortable and affluent and safe. 309 00:17:13,181 --> 00:17:15,541 Speaker 1: Maybe what you mean to say is those levels are 310 00:17:16,021 --> 00:17:20,580 Speaker 1: paradoxically appropriate for a society of this level of comfort 311 00:17:20,581 --> 00:17:23,901 Speaker 1: and affluence, and maybe those are the disorders that arise 312 00:17:23,981 --> 00:17:27,301 Speaker 1: out of a world that's been stripped of any There's 313 00:17:27,341 --> 00:17:31,421 Speaker 1: that lovely phrase that psychologis use desirable difficulty. 314 00:17:31,461 --> 00:17:34,701 Speaker 2: Right right, Yeah, they're entirely appropriate, but they seem to 315 00:17:34,701 --> 00:17:38,101 Speaker 2: stand in conflict and contradiction to our idea of ourselves. 316 00:17:38,181 --> 00:17:39,221 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I. 317 00:17:39,221 --> 00:17:42,580 Speaker 2: Mean soldiers on frontlines almost never kill themselves. If they 318 00:17:42,621 --> 00:17:44,981 Speaker 2: commit suicide, it's when they come back. And it's not 319 00:17:45,021 --> 00:17:47,421 Speaker 2: even necessarily related to the amount of combat they we're in. 320 00:17:47,501 --> 00:17:49,701 Speaker 2: It's related to other things. And so then you're not 321 00:17:49,741 --> 00:17:52,421 Speaker 2: going to fix it because you won't be looking at 322 00:17:52,541 --> 00:17:56,661 Speaker 2: the deep alienation of our society that makes people vulnerable 323 00:17:56,781 --> 00:18:02,501 Speaker 2: to suicidal impulses. There's an amazing film that was shot, 324 00:18:02,581 --> 00:18:04,301 Speaker 2: I think in the late forties or right after World 325 00:18:04,301 --> 00:18:07,981 Speaker 2: War Two, called The Best Years of Our Lives. It's 326 00:18:08,021 --> 00:18:10,661 Speaker 2: about four or five soldiers from different units coming back 327 00:18:10,661 --> 00:18:13,340 Speaker 2: on a transport plane and landing in some airfield in 328 00:18:13,341 --> 00:18:16,021 Speaker 2: the Midwest. Their families don't even know they're coming home, 329 00:18:16,381 --> 00:18:18,301 Speaker 2: and the first thing they do is go to a bar. 330 00:18:18,821 --> 00:18:20,461 Speaker 2: So then they get into taxi and they're going to 331 00:18:20,581 --> 00:18:22,741 Speaker 2: drop each other off at house after house. 332 00:18:23,421 --> 00:18:24,581 Speaker 1: It's the fourth house from there. 333 00:18:25,861 --> 00:18:27,541 Speaker 2: They pull up to the first guy's house and you 334 00:18:27,541 --> 00:18:30,261 Speaker 2: could see the family in the windows. He hasn't seen 335 00:18:30,301 --> 00:18:32,461 Speaker 2: his family in a year or two or whatever, and 336 00:18:32,501 --> 00:18:34,941 Speaker 2: he doesn't want to get out of the taxi. Say 337 00:18:35,101 --> 00:18:37,181 Speaker 2: how about the three of us going back to Butcher's place. 338 00:18:37,261 --> 00:18:38,701 Speaker 1: They'll have a couple of drinks and then we can 339 00:18:38,741 --> 00:18:39,141 Speaker 1: go home. 340 00:18:40,301 --> 00:18:43,261 Speaker 2: You're home, no kid, He said, what about one more drink? 341 00:18:43,541 --> 00:18:45,701 Speaker 2: And You're like, come on, man, you gotta go, and 342 00:18:45,781 --> 00:18:46,221 Speaker 2: he goes. 343 00:18:46,701 --> 00:18:48,580 Speaker 1: Those if I were going in to hit a beach. 344 00:18:49,701 --> 00:18:52,741 Speaker 2: I feel like I'm about to hit a beach, meaning 345 00:18:52,901 --> 00:18:56,261 Speaker 2: land under machine gun fire and an atoll in the 346 00:18:56,301 --> 00:19:00,580 Speaker 2: South Pacific. That's what coming home to his family felt like. 347 00:19:01,661 --> 00:19:04,061 Speaker 2: One of the things that people do when they're facing 348 00:19:04,101 --> 00:19:08,941 Speaker 2: something hard, painful, dangerous is they consolidate into a group 349 00:19:09,621 --> 00:19:14,301 Speaker 2: for protection. There was a woman I spoke with who 350 00:19:14,941 --> 00:19:18,661 Speaker 2: barely survived cancer, very lucky to survive, and she said, 351 00:19:18,661 --> 00:19:20,981 Speaker 2: you know what, cancer was horrible. I'm lucky to be alive. 352 00:19:21,581 --> 00:19:26,141 Speaker 2: But I do miss one thing about it, the cancer 353 00:19:26,221 --> 00:19:30,061 Speaker 2: ward all of us who were together in the fight 354 00:19:30,101 --> 00:19:33,181 Speaker 2: of our lives and we stuck together. And she said, 355 00:19:33,221 --> 00:19:36,661 Speaker 2: I miss those people. I think she missed who she 356 00:19:36,941 --> 00:19:40,461 Speaker 2: was in that moment, because again she was like rising 357 00:19:40,461 --> 00:19:42,901 Speaker 2: above herself and having concern for others, and they were 358 00:19:42,901 --> 00:19:43,661 Speaker 2: all doing that. 359 00:19:44,541 --> 00:20:02,781 Speaker 1: It's like a drug, it's a passion. How old are 360 00:20:02,821 --> 00:20:03,261 Speaker 1: your children. 361 00:20:03,661 --> 00:20:05,661 Speaker 2: They're nine and six, two little girls. 362 00:20:06,061 --> 00:20:09,301 Speaker 1: I also an older dad. I have four and two 363 00:20:09,421 --> 00:20:12,461 Speaker 1: two little girls. Congratulates since I think and gracious and 364 00:20:12,501 --> 00:20:16,141 Speaker 1: to you as well, we're in the same position. So 365 00:20:16,181 --> 00:20:20,661 Speaker 1: I'm curious the things that you have explored in books 366 00:20:20,741 --> 00:20:23,341 Speaker 1: like this, How does that change the way you parents 367 00:20:23,381 --> 00:20:26,781 Speaker 1: your daughters. Have you thought about? How can you give 368 00:20:26,821 --> 00:20:29,261 Speaker 1: them this thing that you've identified as being so important, 369 00:20:29,261 --> 00:20:34,141 Speaker 1: which is this sense of community and desirable difficulty and 370 00:20:34,941 --> 00:20:37,021 Speaker 1: finding meaning and adversity. How do you give them that? 371 00:20:37,581 --> 00:20:39,101 Speaker 2: You know, the first thing we did was not have 372 00:20:39,181 --> 00:20:41,541 Speaker 2: them grow up in an upper middle class community. I 373 00:20:41,581 --> 00:20:44,621 Speaker 2: grew up in a pretty affluent suburb of Boston where 374 00:20:44,661 --> 00:20:47,301 Speaker 2: we didn't know our neighbors particularly well. They're all perfectly 375 00:20:47,381 --> 00:20:50,861 Speaker 2: nice people. We certainly didn't depend on them for anything existential, 376 00:20:50,901 --> 00:20:52,461 Speaker 2: like can you help us fix the roof we got 377 00:20:52,461 --> 00:20:55,580 Speaker 2: a leak, right, And certainly we weren't joining together to 378 00:20:55,581 --> 00:20:57,261 Speaker 2: fight the rebels that were coming down the road and 379 00:20:57,261 --> 00:21:00,461 Speaker 2: pick up drugs. All those forms of human adversity that 380 00:21:00,541 --> 00:21:04,661 Speaker 2: people have bonded together to overcome utterly absent from the 381 00:21:04,701 --> 00:21:07,181 Speaker 2: community that I grew up in. So we live in 382 00:21:07,221 --> 00:21:11,101 Speaker 2: a mixed income but mostly lower income neighborhood and out 383 00:21:11,101 --> 00:21:14,381 Speaker 2: of Manhattan. The building's mostly Spanish speaking is a five 384 00:21:14,421 --> 00:21:16,781 Speaker 2: story tenement and we live on the four of us 385 00:21:16,821 --> 00:21:20,741 Speaker 2: in five hundred square feet. So they're part of the community. 386 00:21:21,021 --> 00:21:23,981 Speaker 2: They are part of that social fabric which is so crucial. 387 00:21:24,541 --> 00:21:26,901 Speaker 2: You know, is it the Sioux nation on the northern 388 00:21:26,901 --> 00:21:29,100 Speaker 2: Great Plains in eighteen eighty No, it's not right, but 389 00:21:29,141 --> 00:21:32,861 Speaker 2: it's for our world in context. It's sort of as 390 00:21:32,861 --> 00:21:36,701 Speaker 2: close as we can get. They have extremely limited access 391 00:21:36,741 --> 00:21:39,541 Speaker 2: to screens. They have no use of an iPhone. It's 392 00:21:39,661 --> 00:21:41,421 Speaker 2: they get a little bit of time on the laptop 393 00:21:41,501 --> 00:21:44,101 Speaker 2: to watch some child programming or do du a lingo 394 00:21:44,221 --> 00:21:48,901 Speaker 2: or what have you. But the interactive touchscreen, they're completely 395 00:21:49,101 --> 00:21:53,701 Speaker 2: separated from it. And we also we co sleep right. 396 00:21:53,741 --> 00:21:56,541 Speaker 2: We have a big pad on the floor and they 397 00:21:56,541 --> 00:21:58,580 Speaker 2: have little bunk beds too in a different room and 398 00:21:58,621 --> 00:22:00,421 Speaker 2: they can sleep there when they want. Sometimes they do, 399 00:22:00,501 --> 00:22:02,221 Speaker 2: but mostly we sort of sleep in a big pile. 400 00:22:02,261 --> 00:22:03,941 Speaker 2: And I've been sort of questioned about this by my 401 00:22:04,061 --> 00:22:06,461 Speaker 2: sort of if I may say, bougie friends, They're like, 402 00:22:06,501 --> 00:22:08,701 Speaker 2: what are you talking about. You need a bigger apartment. 403 00:22:09,181 --> 00:22:12,861 Speaker 2: Every kid needs their own room. I'm like, look, Americans 404 00:22:12,861 --> 00:22:15,461 Speaker 2: are the first mammal ever to not sleep with their 405 00:22:15,501 --> 00:22:18,221 Speaker 2: young like, I'm sorry. And if you were going camping 406 00:22:18,261 --> 00:22:21,341 Speaker 2: the Bob Marshall Wilderness in Montana with your like five 407 00:22:21,421 --> 00:22:23,901 Speaker 2: year old and your three year old, you know what, 408 00:22:23,941 --> 00:22:26,381 Speaker 2: they'd be in the same tent with you, which is 409 00:22:26,421 --> 00:22:30,100 Speaker 2: the human norm, It's the primate norm. So why would you, 410 00:22:30,461 --> 00:22:33,221 Speaker 2: as was done to me on day one, put them 411 00:22:33,261 --> 00:22:35,741 Speaker 2: in a different room and close the door and make 412 00:22:35,781 --> 00:22:38,221 Speaker 2: them cry it out in the dark. It's just insane. 413 00:22:38,861 --> 00:22:42,541 Speaker 1: Yeah, But I was thinking about something like if your 414 00:22:42,781 --> 00:22:44,141 Speaker 1: daughters came to you and said I want to go 415 00:22:44,181 --> 00:22:44,981 Speaker 1: to West Point. 416 00:22:45,261 --> 00:22:48,661 Speaker 2: I would say why, and I'd be very curious about 417 00:22:48,661 --> 00:22:50,581 Speaker 2: the answer, and she said, well, it's the only way 418 00:22:50,581 --> 00:22:52,620 Speaker 2: to fulfill your patriotic duty. I would say, okay, well 419 00:22:52,621 --> 00:22:55,421 Speaker 2: what do you mean by duty and patriotism? I have 420 00:22:55,461 --> 00:22:58,901 Speaker 2: some questions. Yeah, but the idea that they would join 421 00:22:58,941 --> 00:23:01,941 Speaker 2: the military, knowing what I know about the military, both 422 00:23:01,941 --> 00:23:05,141 Speaker 2: its flaws and its incredible strikes, I mean, like, you 423 00:23:05,221 --> 00:23:08,661 Speaker 2: know what, you might be a lot happier in the 424 00:23:08,661 --> 00:23:11,861 Speaker 2: military than as a freelance writer. 425 00:23:14,181 --> 00:23:15,981 Speaker 1: My sister in law grew up on an army base 426 00:23:16,221 --> 00:23:20,701 Speaker 1: in New Jersey and describes it as paradise and for 427 00:23:20,821 --> 00:23:24,141 Speaker 1: precisely the reasons you're talking about. By the way, that 428 00:23:24,181 --> 00:23:26,421 Speaker 1: to be a child in a close knit community of 429 00:23:26,421 --> 00:23:31,021 Speaker 1: people with a shared purpose was just magic. And when 430 00:23:31,101 --> 00:23:34,221 Speaker 1: her dad retired from the Army, she was bereft. She 431 00:23:34,341 --> 00:23:36,821 Speaker 1: was like, why are we leaving Paradise. When I did 432 00:23:36,821 --> 00:23:38,701 Speaker 1: my book Bomber Mafia, and I spent all this time 433 00:23:38,741 --> 00:23:42,221 Speaker 1: with these Air Force guys, I've never been more impressed 434 00:23:42,221 --> 00:23:44,421 Speaker 1: with a group of people, not just in terms of 435 00:23:44,461 --> 00:23:48,461 Speaker 1: their intelligence and their dedication, but it's just there's something 436 00:23:48,461 --> 00:23:52,860 Speaker 1: about that experience which just you could feel the kind 437 00:23:52,901 --> 00:23:55,301 Speaker 1: of character they had as human beings. 438 00:23:55,381 --> 00:23:58,501 Speaker 2: And the loyalty to each other is it's extraordinary. My 439 00:23:58,581 --> 00:24:00,981 Speaker 2: first in bed was two thousand and five, embedded with 440 00:24:01,101 --> 00:24:03,501 Speaker 2: US Forces and it was the same unit I was 441 00:24:03,501 --> 00:24:06,141 Speaker 2: with two years later, and they a lot of complicated 442 00:24:06,181 --> 00:24:08,461 Speaker 2: things happened. We had to cross a mountain pass that was, 443 00:24:08,501 --> 00:24:11,741 Speaker 2: you know, probably nine thousand feet and it was in 444 00:24:11,741 --> 00:24:14,141 Speaker 2: the middle of the winter. The temperature was sub zero, 445 00:24:14,661 --> 00:24:17,021 Speaker 2: and the guys were carrying the mortar teams were carrying 446 00:24:17,021 --> 00:24:19,581 Speaker 2: one hundred and twenty pounds on their back, one hundred 447 00:24:19,581 --> 00:24:22,301 Speaker 2: and forty pounds on their back, righty, and these aren't 448 00:24:22,341 --> 00:24:25,701 Speaker 2: big dudes either, just people, right, They're just normal people. 449 00:24:28,501 --> 00:24:28,701 Speaker 1: You know. 450 00:24:28,741 --> 00:24:32,941 Speaker 2: We walked from sunset to sunrise in those temperatures at 451 00:24:32,941 --> 00:24:35,661 Speaker 2: those elevations, carrying that kind of weight, and they were 452 00:24:35,701 --> 00:24:39,221 Speaker 2: all in T shirts because they were sweating so hard. 453 00:24:39,981 --> 00:24:42,661 Speaker 2: But I thought, boy, I can't think of a single 454 00:24:42,741 --> 00:24:44,941 Speaker 2: dude I went to college with that would do that 455 00:24:45,381 --> 00:24:48,381 Speaker 2: for another person or another country or their own country. 456 00:24:49,021 --> 00:24:50,941 Speaker 2: I can't think of a single guy, you know what. 457 00:24:50,981 --> 00:24:53,421 Speaker 2: I wasn't that guy in college either. But had I 458 00:24:53,541 --> 00:24:56,541 Speaker 2: joined the military, I would have been. We all would 459 00:24:56,541 --> 00:24:58,821 Speaker 2: have been. That's the extraordinary thing about it. 460 00:25:03,461 --> 00:25:06,621 Speaker 1: Especially. That's a lovely way too, to end our conversation. 461 00:25:06,701 --> 00:25:08,621 Speaker 1: I think this has been so much fun. 462 00:25:09,101 --> 00:25:10,861 Speaker 2: Thank you. A real pleasure for me as well. 463 00:25:20,661 --> 00:25:24,061 Speaker 1: Sebastian Younger is the author of Tribe on Homecoming and 464 00:25:24,061 --> 00:25:27,541 Speaker 1: Belonging but he's an excellent writer. His other books include 465 00:25:27,581 --> 00:25:31,101 Speaker 1: The Perfect Storm, War and most recently, In My Time 466 00:25:31,141 --> 00:25:34,021 Speaker 1: of Dying. He also has a substat called Tribe with 467 00:25:34,181 --> 00:25:37,461 Speaker 1: Sebastian Younger. Links to all of those are in the 468 00:25:37,501 --> 00:25:45,661 Speaker 1: show notes. This episode was produced by Ryan Schweikert, edited 469 00:25:45,661 --> 00:25:49,061 Speaker 1: by Lydia Jane Kott. Sound designed by Jake Gorski. Our 470 00:25:49,101 --> 00:25:54,061 Speaker 1: executive producer is Costanza Guyardo. Original music by Eric Phillips. 471 00:25:54,981 --> 00:25:58,620 Speaker 1: I'm Malcolm Gladwell. Thanks, as always for listening.