1 00:00:02,240 --> 00:00:04,760 Speaker 1: Strange Arrivals is a production of I Heart three D 2 00:00:04,880 --> 00:00:16,800 Speaker 1: audio for full exposure, Listen with headphones. In the heart 3 00:00:16,840 --> 00:00:20,640 Speaker 1: of the Great Southwest, between Arizona and Texas and bordering 4 00:00:20,640 --> 00:00:23,919 Speaker 1: on the Republic of Mexico, lies the Sunshine State. In 5 00:00:23,960 --> 00:00:27,360 Speaker 1: this land of ours, the state of New Mexico, one 6 00:00:27,360 --> 00:00:29,880 Speaker 1: of the largest, yet one of the least populated, of 7 00:00:29,880 --> 00:00:32,559 Speaker 1: all of our states. New Mexico was admitted to the 8 00:00:32,640 --> 00:00:40,159 Speaker 1: Union as recently as nineteen twelve. Since Coronado brought the 9 00:00:40,200 --> 00:00:43,360 Speaker 1: first horses and sheep into the territory, the raising of 10 00:00:43,440 --> 00:00:47,040 Speaker 1: live stock has been one of New Mexico's most important industries. 11 00:00:48,000 --> 00:00:52,360 Speaker 1: At one time, sheep dominated the state's agricultural life, leading 12 00:00:52,640 --> 00:00:57,120 Speaker 1: clothing and helping support her people. Today, cattle are perhaps 13 00:00:57,120 --> 00:01:00,720 Speaker 1: of equal importance. The cattle round up is a familiar 14 00:01:00,760 --> 00:01:04,400 Speaker 1: site in the Great Southwest, Cowboys driving the cattle of 15 00:01:04,440 --> 00:01:08,360 Speaker 1: shipping points along the railroad and along the way. A 16 00:01:08,480 --> 00:01:15,960 Speaker 1: man's got to eat. That grub is plenty good too, Hey, partner, 17 00:01:24,800 --> 00:01:39,959 Speaker 1: I'm Toby Ball and this is Strange Arrivals Episode nine. 18 00:01:40,640 --> 00:01:47,400 Speaker 1: The Land of Enchantment, the beginning of the modern UFO era, 19 00:01:47,720 --> 00:01:51,400 Speaker 1: is generally pegged to Kenneth Arnold's UFO sighting around Mount 20 00:01:51,480 --> 00:01:57,800 Speaker 1: Rainier in but arguably the most famous UFO event in history, 21 00:01:58,040 --> 00:02:01,920 Speaker 1: took place less than three weeks later in Roswell, New Mexico. 22 00:02:03,000 --> 00:02:06,320 Speaker 1: I'm sure the story is familiar, at least in its outline, 23 00:02:07,320 --> 00:02:09,239 Speaker 1: but you may have the sense that it has played 24 00:02:09,240 --> 00:02:12,280 Speaker 1: an important part in UFO lore since the wreckage of 25 00:02:12,360 --> 00:02:15,400 Speaker 1: something was found in the scrub on mac Brazil's ranch. 26 00:02:16,280 --> 00:02:21,760 Speaker 1: But that's not the case, retired Air Force pilot James mcgahey, 27 00:02:22,440 --> 00:02:26,840 Speaker 1: The Roswell incident was never in Project Blue Book. It 28 00:02:27,000 --> 00:02:30,480 Speaker 1: wasn't a case in there. It was never investigated by 29 00:02:30,480 --> 00:02:34,880 Speaker 1: the United States Air Force. Earlier this season, we heard 30 00:02:34,960 --> 00:02:38,639 Speaker 1: Joe Nicol talk about his model of the Roswellian syndrome. 31 00:02:39,639 --> 00:02:44,840 Speaker 1: It's a five step process that some UFO stories undergo. First, 32 00:02:45,240 --> 00:02:52,560 Speaker 1: there's a UFO encounter. Second, the encounter is quickly explained. Third, 33 00:02:52,680 --> 00:02:58,040 Speaker 1: the story doesn't really go away, it just goes underground. Fourth, 34 00:02:58,440 --> 00:03:01,959 Speaker 1: While underground, the or is subjected to what Nickel calls 35 00:03:02,240 --> 00:03:08,560 Speaker 1: myth making processes, as some mixture of rumors, changing memories, hoaxing, 36 00:03:08,760 --> 00:03:14,240 Speaker 1: and so on is added to the original story. Finally, five, 37 00:03:14,880 --> 00:03:18,880 Speaker 1: the story resurfaces in a new form that explains away 38 00:03:18,919 --> 00:03:23,839 Speaker 1: the original skeptical explanation. I don't want to spend much 39 00:03:23,880 --> 00:03:27,920 Speaker 1: time on the actual seven Roswell event since many of 40 00:03:27,960 --> 00:03:31,760 Speaker 1: you probably know all about it, so here's a brief recap. 41 00:03:32,440 --> 00:03:39,080 Speaker 1: Skeptical investigator Joe Nicol. The Roswell incident really started on 42 00:03:39,320 --> 00:03:44,280 Speaker 1: July the eights in when a whip behind the years 43 00:03:44,760 --> 00:03:49,640 Speaker 1: press officer put out a press release claiming the recovery 44 00:03:49,680 --> 00:03:54,720 Speaker 1: of a quote unquote flying disc. The local paper, the 45 00:03:54,840 --> 00:03:58,960 Speaker 1: Roswell Daily Record, ran a story about how Mac Brazil 46 00:03:59,080 --> 00:04:01,600 Speaker 1: had come into town on with a collection of wreckage 47 00:04:01,920 --> 00:04:04,840 Speaker 1: that had been strewn over a large area of his ranch. 48 00:04:05,680 --> 00:04:09,800 Speaker 1: This wreckage consisted of sticks, tape, pieces of rubber, and 49 00:04:09,880 --> 00:04:13,880 Speaker 1: foil paper. Were these the remains of a crash flying saucer? 50 00:04:14,600 --> 00:04:18,000 Speaker 1: The newspaper quickly printed an update with an explanation for 51 00:04:18,120 --> 00:04:24,080 Speaker 1: what was the weather boat and the material sticks tape, rubber, 52 00:04:24,320 --> 00:04:30,200 Speaker 1: foiled paper. We're from a weather boat, weather device, and 53 00:04:30,400 --> 00:04:37,000 Speaker 1: that pretty much debunked the whole affair and was basically 54 00:04:37,040 --> 00:04:41,840 Speaker 1: the death knill to that story. From a wo R 55 00:04:42,080 --> 00:04:46,680 Speaker 1: news report else where, the spot of seeing flying sauces 56 00:04:46,800 --> 00:04:49,520 Speaker 1: or disks was left behind. In the excitement over the 57 00:04:49,560 --> 00:04:52,440 Speaker 1: discovery on the ground of a number of objects resembling 58 00:04:52,520 --> 00:04:55,960 Speaker 1: desks or sauces. One object found on the ranch near Roswell, 59 00:04:56,000 --> 00:04:59,040 Speaker 1: New Mexico, turned out to be a battered army weather below. 60 00:05:00,560 --> 00:05:04,000 Speaker 1: But I have to pause here and say that the 61 00:05:04,120 --> 00:05:06,840 Speaker 1: story that it was a weather balloon was not true. 62 00:05:08,000 --> 00:05:11,840 Speaker 1: And here is a controversy in the whole Roswell story 63 00:05:12,600 --> 00:05:15,640 Speaker 1: whether the people who said it was a weather balloon 64 00:05:16,640 --> 00:05:22,640 Speaker 1: were sincerely mistaken or whether they knew what it really was. 65 00:05:22,880 --> 00:05:27,360 Speaker 1: And we're putting out a false story. But what was 66 00:05:27,880 --> 00:05:33,880 Speaker 1: actually found at mc brazil's ranch instead of a weather balloon, 67 00:05:34,800 --> 00:05:39,920 Speaker 1: and i'll lower my voice, here was a secret United 68 00:05:40,040 --> 00:05:48,799 Speaker 1: States government spy balloon from something called Project mokel James mcgahey. 69 00:05:50,040 --> 00:05:53,520 Speaker 1: So the whole story ended at that point. The Air 70 00:05:53,600 --> 00:05:56,359 Speaker 1: Force put out a statement saying it was just a 71 00:05:56,400 --> 00:05:59,560 Speaker 1: weather balloon. Now it was a bit more than a 72 00:05:59,600 --> 00:06:03,640 Speaker 1: weather a loon in one sense. There was a secret 73 00:06:03,800 --> 00:06:09,280 Speaker 1: classified project going on at Alama Gordo called Project Mogul, 74 00:06:09,360 --> 00:06:14,640 Speaker 1: which was actually top secret a way to release some 75 00:06:15,600 --> 00:06:20,880 Speaker 1: instrumentation in to the high atmosphere at six thousand feet 76 00:06:21,560 --> 00:06:25,960 Speaker 1: carried up by a number of regular weather blooms. In 77 00:06:25,960 --> 00:06:29,799 Speaker 1: this case, it was like twenty three weather balloons connected 78 00:06:29,800 --> 00:06:33,200 Speaker 1: together in a six foot train. And they have been 79 00:06:33,240 --> 00:06:35,560 Speaker 1: doing this for a while, and on one of their 80 00:06:35,600 --> 00:06:39,680 Speaker 1: missions they lost the weather below train when it came down, 81 00:06:40,600 --> 00:06:44,000 Speaker 1: and it just so happened to come down on the 82 00:06:44,160 --> 00:06:47,640 Speaker 1: ranch at which the rancher found this debreeding got drug 83 00:06:47,680 --> 00:06:50,880 Speaker 1: across the desert, and that was sort of the story. 84 00:06:52,360 --> 00:06:58,479 Speaker 1: But anyway, the story was was appropriately deboned, but the 85 00:06:58,600 --> 00:07:03,159 Speaker 1: secrecy of local begins to work its way into the 86 00:07:03,240 --> 00:07:07,359 Speaker 1: story to make more of a conspiracy tale. But what 87 00:07:07,560 --> 00:07:13,800 Speaker 1: happened the whole story went underground, and then there were 88 00:07:13,840 --> 00:07:17,640 Speaker 1: lots of rumors and various things around Roswell, and there's 89 00:07:17,680 --> 00:07:22,560 Speaker 1: some other Air Force tests that happened years later causing 90 00:07:22,640 --> 00:07:27,400 Speaker 1: all kinds of effects of a local population believing this. 91 00:07:28,200 --> 00:07:33,760 Speaker 1: And then finally a UFO believer, Stanton Freedman, found the 92 00:07:33,880 --> 00:07:41,120 Speaker 1: intel officer from the original event. This intel officer was 93 00:07:41,240 --> 00:07:44,920 Speaker 1: Jesse Marcel, who was a major at Roswell Army Air 94 00:07:44,960 --> 00:07:53,400 Speaker 1: Force Base. He was a TV repairman, and he told 95 00:07:53,440 --> 00:07:57,480 Speaker 1: a slightly different story about what had happened those U 96 00:07:58,120 --> 00:08:03,360 Speaker 1: thirty one years before. Here's Jesse Marcel talking about the 97 00:08:03,400 --> 00:08:07,360 Speaker 1: materials he saw from the crash site. It was not 98 00:08:07,440 --> 00:08:10,920 Speaker 1: anything from this earth that I'm quite sure of, because 99 00:08:10,960 --> 00:08:12,880 Speaker 1: I was bigger and tell us almost I was familiar 100 00:08:13,000 --> 00:08:15,360 Speaker 1: just about all of the two he was in aircraft 101 00:08:15,440 --> 00:08:19,240 Speaker 1: and our air travel. And then a number of books 102 00:08:19,280 --> 00:08:21,400 Speaker 1: got written about it, and it became one of the 103 00:08:21,400 --> 00:08:26,840 Speaker 1: most famous UFO cases in history. In Bill Moore and 104 00:08:26,960 --> 00:08:31,800 Speaker 1: Charles Burlitt's published a book called The Roswell Incident, which 105 00:08:31,840 --> 00:08:35,640 Speaker 1: reintroduced the crash story to the public. The book not 106 00:08:35,720 --> 00:08:39,520 Speaker 1: only tells the story, but introduces new elements that are 107 00:08:39,559 --> 00:08:43,560 Speaker 1: now familiar, such as government cover up and alien bodies. 108 00:08:44,559 --> 00:08:48,280 Speaker 1: Though not credited as an author, Stanton Friedman was one 109 00:08:48,320 --> 00:08:52,480 Speaker 1: of the primary researchers. Here he is talking about the 110 00:08:52,520 --> 00:08:57,240 Speaker 1: work he and Moore did. I'm the original civilian investigator 111 00:08:57,240 --> 00:09:01,600 Speaker 1: about the Roswell incidents. Starting in Night Dylan, I located 112 00:09:01,679 --> 00:09:03,959 Speaker 1: sixty two people. Within the next year and a half 113 00:09:04,600 --> 00:09:08,080 Speaker 1: we were connected with the story. The first book came out, 114 00:09:10,600 --> 00:09:13,120 Speaker 1: Crash at Corona, laid out the claim that what was 115 00:09:13,200 --> 00:09:16,840 Speaker 1: found on mac Braswell's ranch was not a top secret balloon, 116 00:09:17,480 --> 00:09:20,959 Speaker 1: but a flying saucerer, and that alien bodies were recovered. 117 00:09:21,880 --> 00:09:24,880 Speaker 1: This was the basis on which the new Roswell mythology 118 00:09:24,960 --> 00:09:28,760 Speaker 1: was formed and from which it grew. Can we get 119 00:09:28,800 --> 00:09:34,240 Speaker 1: this elaborate story of the Christ flying saucer and alien 120 00:09:34,360 --> 00:09:38,880 Speaker 1: bodies and the alien bodies? This was an old done 121 00:09:38,960 --> 00:09:42,400 Speaker 1: in one story. You know, these are handed on and 122 00:09:42,480 --> 00:09:47,080 Speaker 1: the aliens were kept at some secret location, and pretty 123 00:09:47,120 --> 00:09:50,520 Speaker 1: soon there's another Christ site that we've never heard of, 124 00:09:51,480 --> 00:09:54,760 Speaker 1: and so on. This is just what happens over time. 125 00:09:55,559 --> 00:09:59,920 Speaker 1: I got my doctorate in English literature and folklore. Folk 126 00:10:00,160 --> 00:10:06,520 Speaker 1: Ors know that given enough time, stories proliferate and told 127 00:10:06,559 --> 00:10:11,040 Speaker 1: and retold and retold, and you will get these very 128 00:10:11,120 --> 00:10:15,360 Speaker 1: different versions of a story that you can recognize though 129 00:10:15,400 --> 00:10:20,320 Speaker 1: that's the same story, but it's now a very different 130 00:10:20,440 --> 00:10:24,600 Speaker 1: version of the same story. The Roswell Crash dates back 131 00:10:24,640 --> 00:10:27,640 Speaker 1: almost seventy five years. It has been in the public 132 00:10:27,679 --> 00:10:31,160 Speaker 1: eye for about forty. It is the most famous UFO 133 00:10:31,280 --> 00:10:35,280 Speaker 1: case in history. As David Clark said earlier in this season, 134 00:10:36,520 --> 00:10:40,160 Speaker 1: really what can you say about wasn't being said, But 135 00:10:40,240 --> 00:10:42,719 Speaker 1: it turns out that people still have plenty to say 136 00:10:42,760 --> 00:10:45,920 Speaker 1: about Roswell and it fits with the dynamic that we 137 00:10:46,040 --> 00:10:50,320 Speaker 1: looked at in the Ryndolshom Forest incident. There remains no 138 00:10:50,440 --> 00:10:54,640 Speaker 1: public insensus for what happened at Roswell, whether the debris 139 00:10:54,679 --> 00:10:57,640 Speaker 1: found there was from a secret balloon program or a 140 00:10:57,679 --> 00:11:01,520 Speaker 1: crash flying saucer, and that leaves room for stories to 141 00:11:01,600 --> 00:11:06,959 Speaker 1: be proffered, evaluated, and neither absorbed into the folklore or forgotten. 142 00:11:08,240 --> 00:11:11,400 Speaker 1: I talked to Ryan Sprague, the host of the Somewhere 143 00:11:11,400 --> 00:11:14,640 Speaker 1: in the Skies podcast, about a number of topics for 144 00:11:14,679 --> 00:11:17,560 Speaker 1: this season, and he told me about some work he 145 00:11:17,559 --> 00:11:21,400 Speaker 1: had done for a television show about Roswell, and without 146 00:11:21,400 --> 00:11:24,080 Speaker 1: trying to evaluate the merits of the evidence he saw 147 00:11:24,320 --> 00:11:28,120 Speaker 1: and stories he heard, his experience shows how the Roswell's 148 00:11:28,120 --> 00:11:33,880 Speaker 1: story remains dynamic. I had the opportunity to do an 149 00:11:33,880 --> 00:11:39,480 Speaker 1: independent investigation on Roosvelt, and this is for a television network, 150 00:11:40,040 --> 00:11:42,200 Speaker 1: and I told them off the bat, I said, look, 151 00:11:42,440 --> 00:11:45,520 Speaker 1: if there's nothing new that you've discovered or you want 152 00:11:45,520 --> 00:11:47,440 Speaker 1: me to look into, I don't want to be a 153 00:11:47,480 --> 00:11:51,760 Speaker 1: part of this because it's Roswell. People know this, they've 154 00:11:51,760 --> 00:11:54,240 Speaker 1: seen it a million times, and I don't want to 155 00:11:54,240 --> 00:11:56,400 Speaker 1: be connected to it. If we're just rehashing the same 156 00:11:56,440 --> 00:11:59,880 Speaker 1: stuff over and over. And to their credit, the rees 157 00:12:00,080 --> 00:12:04,320 Speaker 1: archers on this television program, working in conjunction with me 158 00:12:04,520 --> 00:12:08,800 Speaker 1: and my co investigator, a private investigator and Navy veteran, 159 00:12:09,320 --> 00:12:13,600 Speaker 1: we found new evidence. We flew to Roswell. We met 160 00:12:13,640 --> 00:12:18,960 Speaker 1: with a geologist who claimed to have debris from a 161 00:12:19,000 --> 00:12:22,880 Speaker 1: possible crash of a craft and that was it for me. 162 00:12:23,000 --> 00:12:25,760 Speaker 1: Man the minute this guy said he had physical evidence 163 00:12:26,000 --> 00:12:29,040 Speaker 1: that he found, presumably at the Roswey UFO crash site, 164 00:12:29,400 --> 00:12:32,440 Speaker 1: I needed to see it. The guy with the evidence 165 00:12:32,520 --> 00:12:36,600 Speaker 1: was Frank Kimbler, an associate professor of Earth science at 166 00:12:36,600 --> 00:12:40,600 Speaker 1: New Mexico Military Institute. He has appeared in a number 167 00:12:40,640 --> 00:12:45,760 Speaker 1: of UFO documentaries and television shows. We went right to 168 00:12:45,800 --> 00:12:50,280 Speaker 1: the military institute where this geologist taught, and he showed 169 00:12:50,400 --> 00:12:55,199 Speaker 1: us exactly how he found the location where the crash happened. 170 00:12:55,800 --> 00:12:58,400 Speaker 1: Kimbler claimed that he had found metals a couple of 171 00:12:58,400 --> 00:13:01,360 Speaker 1: feet beneath the surface of the crowd our site. He 172 00:13:01,440 --> 00:13:04,760 Speaker 1: also said he had found buttons consistent with army uniforms 173 00:13:04,800 --> 00:13:08,640 Speaker 1: at the same time at the same site, and then 174 00:13:08,679 --> 00:13:12,640 Speaker 1: he showed us the medals at first glance, it looked 175 00:13:12,679 --> 00:13:17,160 Speaker 1: like any other metal out there, so that was, you know, 176 00:13:17,200 --> 00:13:20,400 Speaker 1: a little I guess deflating for me. We brought it 177 00:13:20,480 --> 00:13:24,920 Speaker 1: to a prominent aerospace lab in California and had attested 178 00:13:25,559 --> 00:13:29,959 Speaker 1: and that's where things got really interesting. We got the 179 00:13:30,000 --> 00:13:36,000 Speaker 1: results back and while the result didn't scream alien, what 180 00:13:36,040 --> 00:13:40,560 Speaker 1: you found is alien or extraterrestrial. The composition and the 181 00:13:40,600 --> 00:13:44,360 Speaker 1: makeup of the medal that he claims is what he 182 00:13:44,400 --> 00:13:52,199 Speaker 1: found in this desert. It was manufactured, and the alloys 183 00:13:52,280 --> 00:13:56,880 Speaker 1: within this medal where things we can only dream of 184 00:13:57,360 --> 00:14:03,280 Speaker 1: our aerospace flabs using right now. So again, if this 185 00:14:03,520 --> 00:14:06,160 Speaker 1: was found in the desert in nineteen or had been 186 00:14:06,240 --> 00:14:11,160 Speaker 1: underground for fifty something years, it was what is being 187 00:14:11,280 --> 00:14:16,000 Speaker 1: used on our most sophisticated aerospace technology and shuttles right now. 188 00:14:16,760 --> 00:14:21,000 Speaker 1: So that begs the question. Was this some highly secretive 189 00:14:21,440 --> 00:14:25,600 Speaker 1: advanced spacecraft that America was working on at the time, 190 00:14:26,360 --> 00:14:28,640 Speaker 1: It had a crash, they needed to clean it up. 191 00:14:29,040 --> 00:14:32,040 Speaker 1: Let's use this alien thing as a cover story possibly? 192 00:14:32,520 --> 00:14:35,200 Speaker 1: Or what is it? Or it could be from an 193 00:14:35,240 --> 00:14:39,320 Speaker 1: alien spacecraft or it could be an advanced modern alloy. 194 00:14:39,480 --> 00:14:43,360 Speaker 1: The Kimbler only says he found in the desert. There 195 00:14:43,440 --> 00:14:46,920 Speaker 1: was one other experience that I've never really shared with anyone. 196 00:14:47,920 --> 00:14:52,840 Speaker 1: My investigative partner Jennifer Marshall and I we were unbreak 197 00:14:53,080 --> 00:14:57,480 Speaker 1: during filming for this television show and we're covering was 198 00:14:57,520 --> 00:15:01,360 Speaker 1: it Aliens? Was it? This a guy in the town 199 00:15:01,600 --> 00:15:04,280 Speaker 1: of Roswell. He comes up to us, he sees in 200 00:15:04,320 --> 00:15:08,280 Speaker 1: our camera crew, and he starts asking questions, as anyone 201 00:15:08,320 --> 00:15:11,320 Speaker 1: in a small town would when outsiders come in and 202 00:15:11,360 --> 00:15:15,040 Speaker 1: you seek cameras and all of this. This guy asked 203 00:15:15,080 --> 00:15:17,280 Speaker 1: what Ryan's angle on the show is going to be. 204 00:15:18,280 --> 00:15:20,880 Speaker 1: Is he going to claim it was an extraterrestrial craft? 205 00:15:21,840 --> 00:15:27,080 Speaker 1: Ryan says, not necessarily, and he's like, well, I could 206 00:15:27,080 --> 00:15:30,320 Speaker 1: tell you this it was an aliens and that perked 207 00:15:30,360 --> 00:15:34,040 Speaker 1: our interest and they're like, okay, well what do you 208 00:15:34,120 --> 00:15:36,480 Speaker 1: think it was? And he said, look, everyone in this 209 00:15:36,560 --> 00:15:40,080 Speaker 1: town knows everybody. We all had a friend or a 210 00:15:40,080 --> 00:15:44,440 Speaker 1: family member who was directly involved with that incident. He said, 211 00:15:44,520 --> 00:15:48,440 Speaker 1: for me, it was my great grandfather, and I can 212 00:15:48,520 --> 00:15:51,320 Speaker 1: tell you right now it was not aliens. So of 213 00:15:51,360 --> 00:15:53,560 Speaker 1: course we're going to press him on that. We're like, okay, well, 214 00:15:53,560 --> 00:15:56,520 Speaker 1: what was it? What was it? And he went into 215 00:15:56,560 --> 00:16:00,080 Speaker 1: this story that I'd heard in the past, but I 216 00:16:00,120 --> 00:16:04,360 Speaker 1: didn't put much credence into it. This was a very early, 217 00:16:04,600 --> 00:16:08,400 Speaker 1: top secret program for spaceflight. I mean we're talking the 218 00:16:08,480 --> 00:16:14,880 Speaker 1: early early days of high altitude tests and whatnot. So 219 00:16:15,880 --> 00:16:22,480 Speaker 1: this guy told us that the American government, we're using individuals, 220 00:16:22,920 --> 00:16:27,440 Speaker 1: children to be specific, who were runaways or who were 221 00:16:27,880 --> 00:16:31,800 Speaker 1: um left to the corners of society, whether they were 222 00:16:31,880 --> 00:16:37,280 Speaker 1: mentally disabled or physically disabful, and they would use these kids, 223 00:16:38,080 --> 00:16:41,760 Speaker 1: put them in these high altitude balloons or or craft 224 00:16:41,800 --> 00:16:44,280 Speaker 1: of some sort, and send them up to see how 225 00:16:44,360 --> 00:16:49,000 Speaker 1: far they could survive in the atmosphere. And one of 226 00:16:49,040 --> 00:16:52,920 Speaker 1: these things came down and that's what they found on 227 00:16:52,960 --> 00:16:57,560 Speaker 1: the ranch and Roswell. This is a pretty dark story, obviously, 228 00:16:58,520 --> 00:17:02,080 Speaker 1: and as Ryan says, it's a variation on an existing 229 00:17:02,200 --> 00:17:06,359 Speaker 1: story about test flights and crashes and government cover up 230 00:17:06,400 --> 00:17:11,119 Speaker 1: of advanced weapons systems. And that's why so many military 231 00:17:11,119 --> 00:17:14,879 Speaker 1: officials claimed we've seen bodies at the time, and that 232 00:17:15,000 --> 00:17:17,840 Speaker 1: they were they didn't look human. If we're going to 233 00:17:17,880 --> 00:17:20,600 Speaker 1: go back to this idea that they could have been children, 234 00:17:20,680 --> 00:17:24,200 Speaker 1: they were very small, some of them had physical disabilities. 235 00:17:25,320 --> 00:17:28,080 Speaker 1: So these are two stories from one person who is 236 00:17:28,119 --> 00:17:32,679 Speaker 1: actively involved in looking at the UFO phenomenon. You'll notice 237 00:17:32,720 --> 00:17:35,800 Speaker 1: that the stories point to different explanations for the crash, 238 00:17:36,440 --> 00:17:42,080 Speaker 1: use different methods of authentication, and are mutually exclusive. One 239 00:17:42,160 --> 00:17:45,800 Speaker 1: explanation points to either an advanced military craft of some 240 00:17:45,920 --> 00:17:50,000 Speaker 1: sort or an alien vehicle, and supports this story with 241 00:17:50,080 --> 00:17:54,480 Speaker 1: a piece of alleged physical evidence. The other story takes 242 00:17:54,480 --> 00:17:57,080 Speaker 1: the evidence that the wreckage was from a high altitude 243 00:17:57,080 --> 00:18:00,840 Speaker 1: balloon and adds the part about children being victimized in 244 00:18:00,880 --> 00:18:06,800 Speaker 1: a terrible experiment. These explanations cannot both be true, but 245 00:18:06,880 --> 00:18:09,320 Speaker 1: these are the kind of stories that keep the Roswell 246 00:18:09,480 --> 00:18:14,440 Speaker 1: legend going, creating new narratives or adding twists to old narratives. 247 00:18:15,760 --> 00:18:18,800 Speaker 1: My sense is that there's no pulling the Roswell incident 248 00:18:18,920 --> 00:18:23,560 Speaker 1: back to the original story that was reported in the 249 00:18:23,680 --> 00:18:26,960 Speaker 1: legend is too deeply ingrained in our culture at this point. 250 00:18:27,880 --> 00:18:32,320 Speaker 1: There are innumerable books and episodes of television programs about Roswell. 251 00:18:33,000 --> 00:18:36,040 Speaker 1: A series of young adult books about human looking alien 252 00:18:36,080 --> 00:18:39,159 Speaker 1: teenagers at Roswell High School that was turned into a 253 00:18:39,200 --> 00:18:44,520 Speaker 1: TV show, The Alien Autopsy Special of Fox Television, The 254 00:18:44,560 --> 00:18:49,040 Speaker 1: Alien Autopsy version of The Child's Game Operation, an annual 255 00:18:49,200 --> 00:18:54,760 Speaker 1: UFO Festival and on and on. It is the foundational 256 00:18:54,800 --> 00:18:58,280 Speaker 1: event from which our perception of the government and UFOs sprang. 257 00:18:59,119 --> 00:19:02,680 Speaker 1: And it's a special interesting that when the story reserviced 258 00:19:02,680 --> 00:19:08,280 Speaker 1: in it was brought back by civilian researchers. When Project 259 00:19:08,280 --> 00:19:13,040 Speaker 1: Bluebook closed and with it the official government inquiry into UFOs, 260 00:19:13,800 --> 00:19:17,760 Speaker 1: the impetus for investigation fell on people outside the government, 261 00:19:18,640 --> 00:19:21,560 Speaker 1: and while civilians took the lead in the nineteen seventies 262 00:19:21,600 --> 00:19:25,080 Speaker 1: and eighties, the Air Force was not content to leave 263 00:19:25,119 --> 00:19:28,760 Speaker 1: them to their own devices, and the efforts undertaken by 264 00:19:28,760 --> 00:19:32,720 Speaker 1: the Air Force to undermine this civilian research has played 265 00:19:32,720 --> 00:19:37,359 Speaker 1: a role in shaping our understanding of UFOs today after 266 00:19:37,400 --> 00:20:01,960 Speaker 1: the break. One of the stranger aspects of the developing 267 00:20:02,000 --> 00:20:05,399 Speaker 1: folklore was the part that the US government and in 268 00:20:05,440 --> 00:20:10,800 Speaker 1: particularly the Air Force, played in advancing disinformation about UFOs. 269 00:20:12,000 --> 00:20:14,680 Speaker 1: We're going to look at some of the alleged instances 270 00:20:14,760 --> 00:20:18,879 Speaker 1: of this disinformation campaign in the next few episodes. A 271 00:20:18,920 --> 00:20:21,720 Speaker 1: lot of the insight we have into this effort comes 272 00:20:21,720 --> 00:20:27,160 Speaker 1: from the tricky figure of Richard Doughty. I'm Richard Doughty. 273 00:20:27,280 --> 00:20:30,800 Speaker 1: I'm a former intelligence officer with the Air Force Office 274 00:20:30,840 --> 00:20:36,520 Speaker 1: Special Investigations. I worked in intelligence from nine seventy eight 275 00:20:36,560 --> 00:20:40,399 Speaker 1: to nine. I was in the regular Air Force for 276 00:20:40,440 --> 00:20:44,199 Speaker 1: four years. I went to college. After college, I was 277 00:20:44,280 --> 00:20:49,320 Speaker 1: recruited in the Intelligence Service and I worked at Curtland 278 00:20:49,359 --> 00:20:53,520 Speaker 1: Air Force Base here now Buquerque. I worked at DEBT 279 00:20:53,640 --> 00:20:56,320 Speaker 1: three Flight Test Center and what you call what they 280 00:20:56,359 --> 00:21:00,320 Speaker 1: call Area fifty one in Nevada. The Air Force often 281 00:21:00,400 --> 00:21:05,000 Speaker 1: Special Investigations is the criminal investigative arm of the United 282 00:21:05,000 --> 00:21:10,920 Speaker 1: States airf Force. They investigate criminal activities, fraud activities, and 283 00:21:11,080 --> 00:21:14,639 Speaker 1: counter intelligence counter espionage. And that's what I did. I 284 00:21:14,680 --> 00:21:20,760 Speaker 1: did exclusively just counterintelligence and counter espionage for a FOS I. 285 00:21:22,000 --> 00:21:25,480 Speaker 1: Richard Doughty is an important figure in our story because 286 00:21:25,520 --> 00:21:29,560 Speaker 1: he admittedly passed disinformation to the UFO community in the 287 00:21:29,640 --> 00:21:34,080 Speaker 1: nineteen eighties, and this disinformation became part of the greater 288 00:21:34,240 --> 00:21:39,080 Speaker 1: UFO narrative. But when listening to him, it's very important 289 00:21:39,119 --> 00:21:41,800 Speaker 1: to remember that his job was to lie to people 290 00:21:41,840 --> 00:21:45,600 Speaker 1: about UFOs, and there's no reason to believe that he's 291 00:21:45,640 --> 00:21:49,280 Speaker 1: telling the truth now. I interviewed him over the course 292 00:21:49,320 --> 00:21:52,840 Speaker 1: of about two hours about a number of subjects and 293 00:21:52,880 --> 00:21:55,080 Speaker 1: found that when he was talking about people that he 294 00:21:55,160 --> 00:21:59,000 Speaker 1: knew and operations he was involved in. What he said 295 00:21:59,040 --> 00:22:02,119 Speaker 1: often lined up what others involved in these incidents have 296 00:22:02,320 --> 00:22:06,960 Speaker 1: written or said. When the conversation strayed into the subject 297 00:22:07,040 --> 00:22:11,320 Speaker 1: of actual UFOs and alien contact, I definitely felt that 298 00:22:11,359 --> 00:22:14,160 Speaker 1: he was promoting the same false stories that he has 299 00:22:14,200 --> 00:22:18,600 Speaker 1: for decades. So as we look at some of these intrigues, 300 00:22:18,960 --> 00:22:22,359 Speaker 1: particularly in the nineteen eighties, I want to be very 301 00:22:22,480 --> 00:22:24,840 Speaker 1: clear that many of the claims that he makes are 302 00:22:24,840 --> 00:22:28,040 Speaker 1: in keeping with his past as an agent of disinformation, 303 00:22:28,840 --> 00:22:32,439 Speaker 1: and as we talked about earlier in the season, whether 304 00:22:32,480 --> 00:22:35,240 Speaker 1: the story he is telling is factual or not is 305 00:22:35,320 --> 00:22:38,879 Speaker 1: less important than the story itself, but don't take his 306 00:22:38,920 --> 00:22:43,840 Speaker 1: claims about aliens as factual. With that said, I didn't 307 00:22:43,920 --> 00:22:47,640 Speaker 1: ask Rick specifically about Roswell, but it came up when 308 00:22:47,640 --> 00:22:50,000 Speaker 1: I asked him about how he was oriented to his 309 00:22:50,119 --> 00:22:54,720 Speaker 1: job infiltrating the UFO community. At the time, he was 310 00:22:54,760 --> 00:22:58,320 Speaker 1: stationed at Curland Air Force Base in Albuquerque, New Mexico, 311 00:22:59,000 --> 00:23:02,600 Speaker 1: an enormous facilit of the encompassing about eighties square miles. 312 00:23:04,080 --> 00:23:07,800 Speaker 1: While stationed at Curtland, there was an incident that occurred 313 00:23:08,400 --> 00:23:12,520 Speaker 1: in a remote secretive area of the base, and it 314 00:23:12,640 --> 00:23:18,679 Speaker 1: fell within my purview of counterintelligence operation, so I didn't 315 00:23:18,680 --> 00:23:23,120 Speaker 1: have a proper clearance to access to certain information pertaining 316 00:23:23,160 --> 00:23:27,600 Speaker 1: to this. So I was then briefed into the program. 317 00:23:27,720 --> 00:23:34,560 Speaker 1: And the program involved the United States government's knowledge in 318 00:23:34,640 --> 00:23:39,399 Speaker 1: contacts with extra trustrials, the investigation of UFO activities on 319 00:23:39,520 --> 00:23:43,320 Speaker 1: or near a base or all all over the United States. 320 00:23:43,320 --> 00:23:46,280 Speaker 1: It was a highly classified program. I had to get 321 00:23:46,280 --> 00:23:49,960 Speaker 1: a special clearance for it. The films and the briefings 322 00:23:49,960 --> 00:23:52,719 Speaker 1: that we obtained, it was just wasn't just me. There 323 00:23:52,760 --> 00:23:55,000 Speaker 1: were some others in the room and we were being 324 00:23:55,080 --> 00:23:58,440 Speaker 1: briefed pertained to the United States involvement with E T 325 00:23:58,680 --> 00:24:03,440 Speaker 1: S and UFOs from on and this was in Vight. 326 00:24:03,560 --> 00:24:07,320 Speaker 1: So the briefing brought us right up to the current 327 00:24:07,440 --> 00:24:11,600 Speaker 1: nineteen seventy eight at that point, and that um explained 328 00:24:11,640 --> 00:24:15,879 Speaker 1: to us that Roswell happened. Incident Roswell happened. There are 329 00:24:15,880 --> 00:24:19,399 Speaker 1: two crashes, one at cronin New Mexico, which was north 330 00:24:19,440 --> 00:24:24,240 Speaker 1: of Roswell in the second one out west of Magdalena 331 00:24:24,520 --> 00:24:30,840 Speaker 1: Polona's Peak, which was south of horse Mesa. The Roswell 332 00:24:30,920 --> 00:24:34,760 Speaker 1: of the Corona crash was found almost immediately in July 333 00:24:34,840 --> 00:24:40,080 Speaker 1: of n but the other crash in uh western part 334 00:24:40,119 --> 00:24:44,520 Speaker 1: of New Mexico wasn't found until nine. The UFO crashed 335 00:24:44,560 --> 00:24:48,879 Speaker 1: in a very very remote area of New Mexico and 336 00:24:49,160 --> 00:24:52,639 Speaker 1: no one really had access to that area. In and 337 00:24:52,760 --> 00:24:55,359 Speaker 1: rancher was taken his cows to a higher pasture and 338 00:24:55,359 --> 00:24:59,520 Speaker 1: he located it. In seven we the Army was involved 339 00:24:59,560 --> 00:25:04,520 Speaker 1: in recovering a craft that crashed Necrona, New Mexico with 340 00:25:04,920 --> 00:25:08,840 Speaker 1: four bodies for dead bodies of E. T s and 341 00:25:08,880 --> 00:25:13,440 Speaker 1: one live body that live creature found in the craft. 342 00:25:14,040 --> 00:25:18,400 Speaker 1: It was later called by the government an extra trustrial 343 00:25:18,400 --> 00:25:23,240 Speaker 1: biological entity or EBA, and he remained into captivity at 344 00:25:23,320 --> 00:25:28,200 Speaker 1: Los Alamos until two when he died. So this will 345 00:25:28,240 --> 00:25:31,919 Speaker 1: be the beginning of a pattern. Doughty takes ideas that 346 00:25:31,960 --> 00:25:35,919 Speaker 1: are already out there in the UFO culture, the Roswell crash, 347 00:25:36,080 --> 00:25:39,840 Speaker 1: the recovery of bodies, even the existence of a live et, 348 00:25:40,720 --> 00:25:44,040 Speaker 1: and puts them in an official context, in this case 349 00:25:44,440 --> 00:25:48,720 Speaker 1: a top secret Air Force briefing. Doughty says he was 350 00:25:48,840 --> 00:25:53,080 Speaker 1: briefed at Kirtland Air Force Base in about the government's 351 00:25:53,119 --> 00:25:58,800 Speaker 1: involvement with UFOs in seven or seventy eight. A man 352 00:25:58,840 --> 00:26:02,360 Speaker 1: who lived just out side the base named Paul Benowitz 353 00:26:02,880 --> 00:26:07,200 Speaker 1: started seeing some strange lights in the night sky. Author 354 00:26:07,240 --> 00:26:11,280 Speaker 1: of the two thousand and five book Project Beta, Greg Bishop. 355 00:26:12,280 --> 00:26:14,719 Speaker 1: Paul benn and Witz was an electrical physicist. He had 356 00:26:14,760 --> 00:26:18,200 Speaker 1: his own business in Albuquerque, New Mexico. It still exists. 357 00:26:18,280 --> 00:26:23,359 Speaker 1: He's deceased now. The business is called Thunder Scientific and 358 00:26:23,400 --> 00:26:27,800 Speaker 1: it is located just outside Curtland Air Force Base. He 359 00:26:27,840 --> 00:26:32,680 Speaker 1: had a government contract. He made censors and humidity sensors 360 00:26:32,720 --> 00:26:37,000 Speaker 1: and other types of sensors. Paul lived in the Four 361 00:26:37,080 --> 00:26:41,600 Speaker 1: Hills area of Albuquerque, which is right outside Curland Air 362 00:26:41,680 --> 00:26:45,800 Speaker 1: Force Base. His backyard butted up against the perimeter of 363 00:26:45,840 --> 00:26:48,720 Speaker 1: the base. You can see the most of the north 364 00:26:48,800 --> 00:26:51,480 Speaker 1: part of the Curtland Air Force Space from his house. 365 00:26:51,720 --> 00:26:55,720 Speaker 1: From his his top deck porch in Albuquerque, he'd go 366 00:26:55,760 --> 00:26:57,920 Speaker 1: out on his porch at night near the Air Force 367 00:26:57,960 --> 00:27:01,480 Speaker 1: space and he can see lights flying around. So he 368 00:27:01,560 --> 00:27:04,440 Speaker 1: started making films of these and I think some video, 369 00:27:04,480 --> 00:27:08,360 Speaker 1: but this was nine when they started or so. Most 370 00:27:08,400 --> 00:27:10,200 Speaker 1: things were done on film. So I had eight millimeter 371 00:27:10,320 --> 00:27:13,359 Speaker 1: film mostly of these lights lifting up off the ground 372 00:27:13,359 --> 00:27:17,760 Speaker 1: and then taking off and going behind this mountain now 373 00:27:18,520 --> 00:27:22,720 Speaker 1: not far from where the perimeter is located is a 374 00:27:22,720 --> 00:27:26,520 Speaker 1: place called Manzano Storage Area. It was one of the 375 00:27:26,600 --> 00:27:30,160 Speaker 1: largest nuclear weapons storage areas in the United States, probably 376 00:27:30,160 --> 00:27:33,359 Speaker 1: in a free world. And there were other classified things 377 00:27:34,119 --> 00:27:39,359 Speaker 1: at Manzano and this isn't classified anymore. Paul placed some 378 00:27:39,680 --> 00:27:44,520 Speaker 1: electronic sensors outside on his patio facing Manzano and he 379 00:27:44,560 --> 00:27:49,320 Speaker 1: was picking up strange signals. He was also photographing airplanes 380 00:27:50,119 --> 00:27:54,280 Speaker 1: flying military airplanes taking off from Curlin Air Force Base. 381 00:27:54,640 --> 00:27:57,480 Speaker 1: He was taking all sorts of pictures. Paul was a 382 00:27:57,560 --> 00:28:02,040 Speaker 1: Navy Vorlo two veteran, highly decorated. He felt that there 383 00:28:02,119 --> 00:28:07,000 Speaker 1: was some danger to the base. Benewitz became convinced that 384 00:28:07,040 --> 00:28:10,800 Speaker 1: these lights that he was filming were in fact advanced 385 00:28:10,880 --> 00:28:17,399 Speaker 1: vehicles being piloted by extraterrestrials. In worried that these UFOs 386 00:28:17,560 --> 00:28:20,840 Speaker 1: posed a serious threat to the base. Benewitz got in 387 00:28:20,880 --> 00:28:24,960 Speaker 1: touch with Kurtland security. So they said, well, this is interesting. 388 00:28:25,640 --> 00:28:27,560 Speaker 1: So they called him in and said, so what are 389 00:28:27,600 --> 00:28:29,359 Speaker 1: you saying? And he stood there in front of a 390 00:28:29,359 --> 00:28:33,119 Speaker 1: whole bunch of based security people at Colonel's and the 391 00:28:33,200 --> 00:28:35,359 Speaker 1: guy that ran the base and told him what he 392 00:28:35,400 --> 00:28:37,479 Speaker 1: was seeing. You know, because they knew what it was, 393 00:28:37,720 --> 00:28:40,320 Speaker 1: but they wanted to know what he knew, one because 394 00:28:40,320 --> 00:28:43,400 Speaker 1: they didn't think anybody's watching, and too because if he's 395 00:28:43,440 --> 00:28:46,240 Speaker 1: talking to anybody, they wanted to know who those people were, 396 00:28:46,760 --> 00:28:50,880 Speaker 1: and he possibly foreign nationals or somebody that just wasn't 397 00:28:50,920 --> 00:28:54,000 Speaker 1: supposed to be seeing that stuff. So they listened to 398 00:28:54,000 --> 00:28:58,760 Speaker 1: his report. As his report went on, security staff would 399 00:28:58,800 --> 00:29:01,280 Speaker 1: leave the room as they realized that what Benewitz was 400 00:29:01,320 --> 00:29:05,000 Speaker 1: talking about was not under their purview. So the two 401 00:29:05,040 --> 00:29:06,800 Speaker 1: or three people that were left that had something to 402 00:29:06,800 --> 00:29:09,360 Speaker 1: worry about about what he was seeing told him, this 403 00:29:09,440 --> 00:29:11,640 Speaker 1: is very interesting, Paul. Why didn't you keep telling us 404 00:29:11,640 --> 00:29:13,920 Speaker 1: what's going on. We want to keep in touch with you. 405 00:29:14,040 --> 00:29:18,200 Speaker 1: This is important to national security, etcetera. What they did 406 00:29:18,200 --> 00:29:21,280 Speaker 1: not say was don't worry about it. We know what 407 00:29:21,320 --> 00:29:24,120 Speaker 1: you're seeing and they are not a threat. Just go 408 00:29:24,200 --> 00:29:26,600 Speaker 1: on about your life and don't worry about it anymore. 409 00:29:27,680 --> 00:29:31,840 Speaker 1: So Bennewitz kept at it. So he continued to film 410 00:29:31,880 --> 00:29:36,360 Speaker 1: these things, and he also built a radio receiver and 411 00:29:36,480 --> 00:29:39,920 Speaker 1: was starting to pick up signals which he thought were 412 00:29:40,520 --> 00:29:45,680 Speaker 1: where UFO or alien transmissions, but apparently what they really 413 00:29:45,680 --> 00:29:50,240 Speaker 1: were were coded transmissions being used to either control weapons 414 00:29:50,360 --> 00:29:54,240 Speaker 1: or who knows what. It's basically electronically coded and this 415 00:29:54,280 --> 00:29:57,600 Speaker 1: is before there was digital encoding decoding all that. They 416 00:29:57,720 --> 00:29:59,760 Speaker 1: spent tons of money to developed this, and he just 417 00:30:00,000 --> 00:30:02,920 Speaker 1: can get up and started to figure out what the 418 00:30:02,960 --> 00:30:05,240 Speaker 1: messages were saying. But he didn't interpret them in the 419 00:30:05,240 --> 00:30:08,400 Speaker 1: way that that that made sense as weapons systems. He 420 00:30:08,440 --> 00:30:14,120 Speaker 1: interpreted them as as alien transmissions. Kirtland Security eventually decided 421 00:30:14,160 --> 00:30:18,920 Speaker 1: that Bennewitz needed to be more carefully monitored. They assigned 422 00:30:19,000 --> 00:30:22,000 Speaker 1: a security person from the Air Force Office of Special 423 00:30:22,080 --> 00:30:25,880 Speaker 1: Investigations to basically, I guess his contact or case officer 424 00:30:26,000 --> 00:30:29,240 Speaker 1: or whatever, and that was Richard Doughty. So Doughty not 425 00:30:29,400 --> 00:30:32,760 Speaker 1: only listened to what he said, he also encouraged his 426 00:30:32,760 --> 00:30:36,160 Speaker 1: his reporting and encouraged I think some of his delusions 427 00:30:36,160 --> 00:30:39,240 Speaker 1: about being alien because they wanted him to stay interested, 428 00:30:39,280 --> 00:30:41,400 Speaker 1: but they didn't want him to know what was going on. 429 00:30:41,480 --> 00:30:44,760 Speaker 1: If he wants to think it's aliens, that's fine. And 430 00:30:44,880 --> 00:30:48,760 Speaker 1: so as far Paul Benowitz goes, that was a a 431 00:30:48,920 --> 00:30:54,320 Speaker 1: super operation by the government and that wasn't just my operation. 432 00:30:54,400 --> 00:30:58,880 Speaker 1: It was the government had planned that operation. And if 433 00:30:58,920 --> 00:31:01,880 Speaker 1: you look back at what Paul did and what Paul 434 00:31:02,400 --> 00:31:06,800 Speaker 1: found out in the entire history of the Paul Bennewitz's 435 00:31:06,840 --> 00:31:09,800 Speaker 1: incident and look at it at a rational with an 436 00:31:09,800 --> 00:31:14,480 Speaker 1: open mind. Most patriotic Americans would say, you did what 437 00:31:14,600 --> 00:31:16,560 Speaker 1: you had to do, and I did what I had 438 00:31:16,600 --> 00:31:18,360 Speaker 1: to do. The government did what we had to do 439 00:31:18,880 --> 00:31:22,480 Speaker 1: to prevent Paul from delving into something that was highly, 440 00:31:22,560 --> 00:31:28,360 Speaker 1: highly classified at that point. Next time on Strange Arrivals. 441 00:31:30,640 --> 00:31:33,240 Speaker 1: Strange Arrivals is a production of I Heeart, three D 442 00:31:33,320 --> 00:31:37,040 Speaker 1: Audio and Grimm and Mild from Aaron Manky. This episode 443 00:31:37,040 --> 00:31:39,719 Speaker 1: was written and hosted by Toby Ball and produced by 444 00:31:39,720 --> 00:31:44,280 Speaker 1: Miranda Hawkins and Josh Thame, with executive producers Alex Williams, 445 00:31:44,440 --> 00:31:48,640 Speaker 1: Matt Frederick, and Aaron Manky, and special thanks to Wendy Connors, 446 00:31:48,840 --> 00:31:52,320 Speaker 1: creator of the Faded Discs archive of UFO related audio 447 00:31:52,720 --> 00:31:56,280 Speaker 1: on archive dot org. Learn more about Strange Rivals over 448 00:31:56,320 --> 00:31:59,960 Speaker 1: at Grimm and Mild dot com, and find more podcasts 449 00:32:00,200 --> 00:32:02,960 Speaker 1: from my Heart Radio by visiting the I Heart Radio app, 450 00:32:03,320 --> 00:32:07,400 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. 451 00:32:09,680 --> 00:32:09,720 Speaker 1: H