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Speaker 1: Hey to your Therapist listeners. It's Lori and Guy and

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Speaker 1: we have a quick update.

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Speaker 2: Many of you have told us that you get something

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Speaker 2: new out of each episode when you listen to it

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Speaker 2: again the second or third time. In fact, when we

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Speaker 2: listen to the episodes again, we also get takeaways we

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Speaker 2: didn't remember.

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Speaker 1: We're They're therapy is like that too. There are so

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Speaker 1: many learning moments in a session, and it's difficult to

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Speaker 1: absorb them all at once. So while we're not taping

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Speaker 1: new episodes right now, we are offering you our most

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Speaker 1: popular sessions as encores so that you can continue to

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Speaker 1: gain value from them.

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Speaker 2: We love doing the Therapists episodes, but we're each busy

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Speaker 2: with new and exciting projects that we hope you will love.

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Speaker 3: Just as much.

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Speaker 1: I have a new advice podcast called Since You Asked,

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Speaker 1: which you can get wherever you listen to podcasts.

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Speaker 2: And I have a new book coming out. It's called

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Speaker 2: Mind Overgrind, How to Break Free when work Hijacks your life,

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Speaker 2: and it will be published by Simon and Schuster. You

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Speaker 2: can find out more about it on my website.

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Speaker 1: You can learn more about these on our socials. And meanwhile,

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Speaker 1: we hope you find these Dear Therapist sessions as valuable

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Speaker 1: as we have making them for you. Hey, fellow travelers,

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Speaker 1: I'm Lori Gottlieb. I'm the author of Maybe You Should

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Speaker 1: Talk to Someone, and I write the Dear Therapist advice

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Speaker 1: column for The Atlantic.

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Speaker 3: And I'm Guy Wench. I'm the author of Emotional First Aid,

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Speaker 3: and I write the Dear Guy advice column for TED.

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Speaker 3: And this is Dear Therapists.

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Speaker 1: Each week we invite you into a session so you

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Speaker 1: can learn more about yourself by hearing how we help

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Speaker 1: other people come to understand themselves better and make changes

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Speaker 1: in their lives.

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Speaker 3: So sit back and welcome to today's session.

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Speaker 1: This week, our fellow traveler struggles with the heartbreak of

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Speaker 1: infertility and pregnancy loss.

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Speaker 4: I had a really, really, really hard time without loss.

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Speaker 4: I was probably a month out from surgery when my

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Speaker 4: brother and sister in law announced they were pregnant.

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Speaker 5: It really kind of sucks the air out.

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Speaker 4: Of me because I was it's like, Oh, now she's

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Speaker 4: going to be pregnant, and oh, we could have been

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Speaker 4: pregnant together. And that really caused like a big friction

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Speaker 4: in my relationship with my brother and sister in law because.

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Speaker 5: I just didn't want to be around them first.

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Speaker 1: A quick note, Dear therapist is for informational purposes only.

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Speaker 1: It does not constitute medical or psychological advice and is

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Speaker 1: not a substitute for professional healthcare advice, diagnosis, or treatment.

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Speaker 1: Always seek the advice of your physician, mental health professional,

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Speaker 1: or other qualified health provider with any questions you may

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Speaker 1: have regarding a medical or psychological condition. By submitting a letter,

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Speaker 1: you are agreeing to let iHeartMedia use it in partwor

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Speaker 1: and full, and we may edit it for length and clarity.

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Speaker 1: In the sessions you'll hear. All names have been changed

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Speaker 1: for the privacy of our fellow travelers. Hey Lourie, Hey guy,

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Speaker 1: So what are we going to talk about today?

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Speaker 3: We're going to talk about pregnancy loss, and here's the

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Speaker 3: letter we got, Dear therapists. I've been struggling with the

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Speaker 3: pain of pregnancy loss and infertility for almost four years now.

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Speaker 3: We were blessed with our first child five and a

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Speaker 3: half years ago and had no trouble getting pregnant with her.

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Speaker 3: I had a healthy pregnancy and birth. Since then, I've

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Speaker 3: had an ectopic pregnancy resulting in losing a fallopian tube,

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Speaker 3: a chemical pregnancy and a miscarriage. All losses were early,

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Speaker 3: but so painful. It's been two years since our last

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Speaker 3: loss and I haven't even been able to get pregnant,

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Speaker 3: so now we're dealing with infertility. In the meantime, our

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Speaker 3: daughter has asked so many times about siblings, and I

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Speaker 3: know she would be a great big sister. Almost all

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Speaker 3: of her friends have siblings. I struggled so much being

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Speaker 3: surrounded by pregnant women everywhere it feels like, and especially

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Speaker 3: in this world of social media, every holiday means another

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Speaker 3: round of pregnancy announcements. Right now, both of my sister

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Speaker 3: and laws are pregnant, one with her fifth child and

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Speaker 3: one with her third, and here I am as barren

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Speaker 3: as ever. We've caught plastic mostly out of our kitchen.

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Speaker 3: I've met with a nutrition taken supplements, and I'm even

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Speaker 3: doing acupuncture, and so someone else getting pregnant without all

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Speaker 3: that feels especially defeating. I'm tired of everyone else's pregnancy

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Speaker 3: is affecting me so much. I was a person who

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Speaker 3: loved pregnancy announcements before this. I don't want to keep saying, well,

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Speaker 3: I'm happy for them, but sad for me. It feels

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Speaker 3: so selfish. It also doesn't help that I constantly struggle

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Speaker 3: with people automatically assuming pregnancy equals a baby in nine months.

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Speaker 3: So much can happen. I've met women who've lost babies

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Speaker 3: at every stage of pregnancy. I'm just really tired, tired

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Speaker 3: of trying to live in the present and also trying

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Speaker 3: to have hope for a different future. I try to

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Speaker 3: be happy with where I'm at. Some days I think

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Speaker 3: I'm there, other days I'm not, And some moments I

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Speaker 3: just crumble. Please help, I feel so lost. Diane.

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Speaker 1: Well, what Diane is describing is grief, and it's a

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Speaker 1: really complicated kind of grief that she's dealing with. It's

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Speaker 1: sort of an ambiguous grief because it's not like someone

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Speaker 1: dies and there's the grieving and people gather around and

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Speaker 1: they're there to comfort you. It's often a silent loss,

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Speaker 1: like with the loss of the pregnancies. It's ambiguous grief

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Speaker 1: because you don't know when or if this thing is

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Speaker 1: going to happen, so you're always every month that you

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Speaker 1: get that pregnancy test, you're dealing with another loss, and

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Speaker 1: then this question of what am I going to lose

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Speaker 1: going forward? So I can understand why she's struggling so

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Speaker 1: much with this, And I.

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Speaker 3: Think what makes it more difficult is that she's right.

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Speaker 3: When you lose pregnancies the way she's lost them, there

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Speaker 3: are a lot of people who shrug it off, who

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Speaker 3: don't take it seriously. She didn't make the announcements probably,

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Speaker 3: so a lot of people probably don't even know that

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Speaker 3: those things happened. And yet she's walking around with one

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Speaker 3: loss after another after another, feeling absolutely bereft, but not

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Speaker 3: able to get perhaps the social support, not able to

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Speaker 3: really even explain to people why it's so painful because

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Speaker 3: some people will get it, some people won't, and having

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Speaker 3: the constant, constant reminders around her, which is exactly what's

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Speaker 3: so painful in these cases, that there's pregnancy all around,

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Speaker 3: especially when you're queued into looking for it, and so

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Speaker 3: just seeing it everywhere and not being able to complete

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Speaker 3: it is just excruciating for her.

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Speaker 1: And then on top of that, she feels like a

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Speaker 1: bad person for feeling what are very normal reactions to

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Speaker 1: the kind of loss that she's experiencing. So let's go

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Speaker 1: talk to her and see what we can do to help.

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Speaker 3: You're listening to Deotherapists from iHeartRadio. We'll be back after

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Speaker 3: a quick break. I'm Lori Gottlieb and I'm Guy Wench

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Speaker 3: and this is Deotherapists. So Diane, welcome to the show.

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Speaker 1: Thank you.

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Speaker 3: Hi, Diane, hide to hear a little of the backstory.

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Speaker 3: Tell us a little bit about this journey that you've

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Speaker 3: been on and how you're feeling about it right now.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, So about five and a half years ago, I

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Speaker 4: had my first daughter, and I had a really normal pregnancy.

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Speaker 5: It was very easy to get pregnant.

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Speaker 4: And I had a rough delivery, but still pretty good

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Speaker 4: and kind of by any standard, and then.

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Speaker 5: Really struggled hard with postpartum depression. I had a lot

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Speaker 5: of a lot.

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Speaker 4: Of trouble adjusting to life as a new mom, like

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Speaker 4: just being needed one hundred percent of the time. I

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Speaker 4: was trying to breastfeed and pump and wasn't sleeping a lot,

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Speaker 4: and so I had a really really rough transition. I

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Speaker 4: always kind of knew I wanted multiple kids, but there

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Speaker 4: was a while after that I was just like, I

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Speaker 4: can't even imagine having more than one, just you know,

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Speaker 4: needed to get through that period of time. And then

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Speaker 4: even the early kind of toddler years are pretty hard.

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Speaker 5: But when my daughter was about two.

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Speaker 4: You know, we were pretty open to trying for the

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Speaker 4: next one, and got pregnant fairly easily again and was

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Speaker 4: really excited. But then I ended up going to er

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Speaker 4: like a day or two later because I was just

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Speaker 4: in so much pain, and I was in there and

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Speaker 4: they did an all like an early kind of ultrasound,

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Speaker 4: and I should have been about I think it was

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Speaker 4: like seven weeks or something, and whatever they were supposed

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Speaker 4: to kind of see, they didn't see.

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Speaker 5: And so then they were.

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Speaker 4: Like, could be a topic, It could be a miscarriage.

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Speaker 4: It could just be that you're like earlier than you

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Speaker 4: think and everything will be okay in a couple of weeks.

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Speaker 4: So it's very unsettling. I actually remember being at the

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Speaker 4: hospital and my husband getting a text from his best

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Speaker 4: friend and they said, we just found out we're having

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Speaker 4: a boy today, and I was like, Wow, that could

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Speaker 4: not be worse time, Like, I'm happy for them, but

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Speaker 4: I'm finding out that I could potentially be losing this child.

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Speaker 4: So it was very up and down, very stressful.

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Speaker 1: This was going on over the course of a few

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Speaker 1: weeks where you didn't know if the pregnancy was viable.

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Speaker 5: It was really kind of like a one to two

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Speaker 5: week period, and.

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Speaker 4: I was just in a lot of pain, and they

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Speaker 4: kept saying, well, if it gets to the point where

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Speaker 4: it's so extreme you you have to be doubled over,

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Speaker 4: then go to the er because then it's you know,

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Speaker 4: life threatening. So it was just like really stressful because

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Speaker 4: I kept thinking, Okay, well, I'm in a lot of pain,

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Speaker 4: but does this mean.

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Speaker 5: Is it like life threatening? Is this is this bad

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Speaker 5: enough to go to the er?

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Speaker 4: So once they determined that it was ech topic, they

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Speaker 4: gave me this medicine to help and then you know,

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Speaker 4: it would be good, we won't have to do surgery,

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Speaker 4: and so I did that and was just still in

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Speaker 4: so much pain, and the doctor was just like really

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Speaker 4: confused because ninety percent chances should have worked, and was

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Speaker 4: ultimately like, I don't want I want to do surgery

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Speaker 4: if I don't have to, because then there's always possibility

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Speaker 4: of having to remove a tube if you, you know,

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Speaker 4: do surgery. So after just being in a lot of

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Speaker 4: pain and kind of the emotional effects of everything and

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Speaker 4: having a two year old at this point, so trying

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Speaker 4: to you know, balance just the daily struggles of motherhood

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Speaker 4: as is I we just like ended up saying let's

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Speaker 4: just do the surgery. And I remember the first thing

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Speaker 4: I asked when I woke up.

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Speaker 5: Was did you save the tube?

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Speaker 4: And they said no, we had to take your right

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Speaker 4: tu about and so I was just like, and the

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Speaker 4: doctor had said, that doesn't half your chance of getting pregnant,

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Speaker 4: it reduces it by like, I don't know, thirty to

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Speaker 4: forty percent or something. So after my surgery and when

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Speaker 4: I was finally just like not in so much physical pain,

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Speaker 4: I really felt started feeling the emotional pain of losing

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Speaker 4: this pregnancy, of losing this child. And I had a

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Speaker 4: very very hard time with it.

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Speaker 1: During this time that you were going through all of this,

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Speaker 1: What was going on between you and your husband? How

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Speaker 1: were you both dealing with it?

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Speaker 4: He was very supportive in just kind of being there

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Speaker 4: with me. For me, we're lucky that we lived near family,

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Speaker 4: so we had a lot of times that like my

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Speaker 4: parents would just take our daughter. So he was able

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Speaker 4: to be there with me for the surgery and everything.

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Speaker 4: He's just not a talker. He's not a sharer of feelings,

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Speaker 4: so I don't think he always necessarily knows how to

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Speaker 4: express himself. Even though he was really there physically and

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Speaker 4: provided a lot of that physical support and you know,

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Speaker 4: let me cry on him kind of emotionally and things

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Speaker 4: like that. It did still feel very isolating when.

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Speaker 1: You lost the pregnancy and then found out that you

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Speaker 1: lost the Filippian tube as well. Did he ever share

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Speaker 1: with you anything about how he felt about what was

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Speaker 1: going on?

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Speaker 4: No? I mean I remember asking him like, are you

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Speaker 4: sad about this?

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Speaker 6: You know?

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Speaker 4: And he was like, yeah, I'm sad, Like he was

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Speaker 4: sad that I was so sad. So he always said,

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Speaker 4: I am sad to see you so sad, and I'm

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Speaker 4: sad that this is, you know, causing you so much

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Speaker 4: pain physically and emotionally, having it like happen in your body.

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Speaker 5: It's very very personal.

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Speaker 4: And it felt like I did something to fail as child,

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Speaker 4: Like I did something to fail the pregnancy.

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Speaker 5: I caused it.

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Speaker 4: Why couldn't my body sustain it?

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Speaker 3: Can we go back? I just want to ask you

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Speaker 3: about the postpartum depression. May I ask if you were

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Speaker 3: treated for it, how long you had it, how your

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Speaker 3: husband was during that?

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Speaker 5: Yeah? I was treated for it.

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Speaker 4: It was very difficult for me to find help, which

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Speaker 4: is very frustrating. I went very fast into a very

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Speaker 4: dark place, and I ended up in the er and

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Speaker 4: they wanted to admit me, and I said, well, I

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Speaker 4: really want to breastfeed my child.

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Speaker 5: I really want to be with my child.

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Speaker 4: And they were like, you can't be and I didn't

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Speaker 4: end up going in at that point, and then we

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Speaker 4: tried to call like a woman's center that was kind

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Speaker 4: of nearby, like a woman's mental health center. They said like,

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Speaker 4: are you a harm to yourself, to your child or

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Speaker 4: somebody else? And I said no, and they said, well

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Speaker 4: you don't qualify. And I was like, I can't be

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Speaker 4: alone with my child. I can't like think straight, like

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Speaker 4: I have these bad thoughts, but I'm.

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Speaker 5: Not going to do anything.

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Speaker 4: And then I try to go to my ob and

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Speaker 4: I had already been on medicine for like anxiety prior

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Speaker 4: to pregnancy, and so I was on that medicine and

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Speaker 4: so the obee said, well, I can't prescribe anything else

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Speaker 4: because that's compounding and I'm not qualified. And you guys

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Speaker 4: are in the profession, so you know this. But you

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Speaker 4: try to call a psychiatrists and they're like, wait, can

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Speaker 4: see you in six to eight weeks, and you're like, no,

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Speaker 4: I need something now.

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Speaker 5: I need something today.

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Speaker 4: I basically ended up finally at my primary care physician

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Speaker 4: and they did prescribe me well beutriated to go with

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Speaker 4: my I think I was so loved and thankfully that

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Speaker 4: was finally the like combination that worked.

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Speaker 5: But it was a very, very long few weeks. My

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Speaker 5: mom was only so post it.

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Speaker 4: We lived like four hours away from our parents at

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Speaker 4: this time, so she was gonna stay for like a

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Speaker 4: week after the baby was born to help, and she

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Speaker 4: was there almost six weeks because I was just like

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Speaker 4: in such a bad place, and my husband was absolutely amazing,

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Speaker 4: just like caring for us, for all of us.

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Speaker 1: You said, Diane, that you had a traumatic birth, and

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Speaker 1: you kind of skipped over that. Sometimes people experience postpartum

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Speaker 1: depression because they have a history of depression. Sounds like

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Speaker 1: you have a history of anxiety. Sometimes that can be

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Speaker 1: compounded by having a traumatic birth. And then when it

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Speaker 1: turns out okay, often people ignore that. They say, oh,

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Speaker 1: look you got a healthy baby and now everything's fine

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Speaker 1: and congratulations and it's amazing, and you're like, I'm not

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Speaker 1: feeling amazing. I'm overwhelmed. I just had a traumatic birth.

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Speaker 1: I'm adjusting to this new role. Were you able to

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Speaker 1: talk with any buddy about the traumatic birth and the

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Speaker 1: impact that it had on you, or did people just

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Speaker 1: kind of ignore that and you went home and everyone

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Speaker 1: acted like everything was great.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I guess I didn't really have a chance to

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Speaker 4: process it at all. I almost feel bad saying it

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Speaker 4: was traumatic, because it was. It was traumatic for me,

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Speaker 4: I guess, but like in the grand scheme of births,

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Speaker 4: it was it was not traumatic.

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Speaker 1: If you were not minimizing it. Can you tell us

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Speaker 1: what was traumatic about it for you?

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Speaker 5: It was so long.

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Speaker 4: It was the most mentally challenging thing I've ever had

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Speaker 4: to do. I was very set on doing an all

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Speaker 4: natural birth, and I had like digging classes and done

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Speaker 4: all this stuff.

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Speaker 5: And it was basically like.

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Speaker 4: Three days of on and off labor, like hard enough

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Speaker 4: labor that I'd have to get done on the floor

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Speaker 4: and you know, breathe through it. Like at the end

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Speaker 4: of the day, I was able to have a natural birth,

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Speaker 4: but like I thought I was dying. I wanted to

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Speaker 4: go to sleep. I at one point was like, just

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Speaker 4: cut this baby out of me. Like I was just

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Speaker 4: absolutely exhausted. By the time she was finally born, I

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Speaker 4: had no energy left in me, and so I just

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Speaker 4: kept saying, like, I just want her to be born

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Speaker 4: so I can sleep, and like that's the biggest joke

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Speaker 4: of all, because when you have a newborn, you don't sleep.

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Speaker 1: You wanted her to be born so that someone could

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Speaker 1: then take care of you because you've just been through

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Speaker 1: all of this, and instead it was, oh, I have

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Speaker 1: to take care of this baby.

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Speaker 5: Yeah exactly.

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Speaker 4: And again, like I think a lot of it was

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Speaker 4: pressure I put on myself, Like I was so intent

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Speaker 4: on I'm going to exclusively breastfeed until she's four years old,

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Speaker 4: and you know, twenty four hours later in the hospital,

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Speaker 4: she's screaming and crying and she's not getting food, and

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Speaker 4: the nurses like you need to give her formula, and

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Speaker 4: I'm crying and and my husband's like, just give her

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Speaker 4: the bottle. And so I was putting all this pressure

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Speaker 4: on myself like now I'm a horrible mother because this

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00:19:14,719 --> 00:19:16,279
Speaker 4: class I took told me, and now I'm giving her

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Speaker 4: poison and all this stuff. And so just started out

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Speaker 4: in this like whirlwind. But then it is hard because

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Speaker 4: I will say that I also felt very empowered, like

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Speaker 4: the fact that I was able to have her all

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Speaker 4: naturally and the fact that I was able to complete

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Speaker 4: that process, so it felt empowering, but then it was

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Speaker 4: just also so overwhelming, and the fact that somebody handed

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Speaker 4: me a child and was like, now you need to

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Speaker 4: make every decision for them. And I remember saying to

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Speaker 4: my friend like, can somebody give me a manual?

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Speaker 5: I will follow it. I will do exactly what they say.

347
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Speaker 4: I will feed her this much, I will do this,

348
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Speaker 4: But trying to figure it all out myself is very overwhelming.

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Speaker 6: Yeah.

350
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Speaker 4: So Dave was very supportive of me again, but I

351
00:20:01,799 --> 00:20:04,159
Speaker 4: think just didn't understand why I was holding on so

352
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Speaker 4: tightly to these things. Like he was sort of like,

353
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Speaker 4: if it's so hard for her to eat, it's really

354
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Speaker 4: okay if we just give her formula.

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Speaker 1: He didn't understand what it represented for you, because there's

356
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Speaker 1: so much conflicting information out there, and new mothers are

357
00:20:20,839 --> 00:20:24,239
Speaker 1: told all kinds of things in very absolute terms. This

358
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Speaker 1: is toxic, this is poison, this will hurt your baby,

359
00:20:27,479 --> 00:20:30,079
Speaker 1: this will hurt their development. And so I think that

360
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Speaker 1: maybe he didn't understand that giving her formula represented something

361
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Speaker 1: for you, whether it was accurate or not correct.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, that's a good assessment.

363
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Speaker 3: There's this concept in psychology called good enough parenting on

364
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Speaker 3: good enough mothering, and the idea of the concept is

365
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Speaker 3: that it's impossible to be a perfect parent. Really, the

366
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Speaker 3: bar is can it be good enough? And I'm saying

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Speaker 3: that because I'm wondering if you were aware at the

368
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Speaker 3: time that you were putting a lot of pressure and

369
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Speaker 3: expectation on yourself to do things, not just a certain way,

370
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Speaker 3: but the correct right way.

371
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Speaker 4: Yeah, I don't think I realized how entrenched in it

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Speaker 4: that I really was at the time.

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Speaker 3: You're saying that six weeks after the birth is when

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Speaker 3: your mom kind of went back home, So you were

375
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Speaker 3: doing a little bitter in terms of the postponing depression.

376
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Speaker 3: How much were you struggling emotionally in that first year

377
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Speaker 3: or four years?

378
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Speaker 4: Even it was challenging, especially that first year. We lived

379
00:21:30,879 --> 00:21:33,759
Speaker 4: about four hours away from our family, so well, I

380
00:21:33,799 --> 00:21:36,519
Speaker 4: worked full time, but three days I worked at home

381
00:21:36,679 --> 00:21:40,519
Speaker 4: with her, and she was not a napper. She would

382
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Speaker 4: maybe nap for like twenty minutes at a time, and

383
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Speaker 4: so it was very, very stressful because I just felt

384
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Speaker 4: like I couldn't do anything well. I couldn't parent well,

385
00:21:51,799 --> 00:21:57,839
Speaker 4: I couldn't work well, I couldn't wife well, almost six

386
00:21:57,959 --> 00:22:01,439
Speaker 4: years later, thinking back on it, like, maybe she wasn't

387
00:22:01,479 --> 00:22:02,239
Speaker 4: so high knees.

388
00:22:02,319 --> 00:22:05,279
Speaker 5: Maybe I just had a lot of trouble adjusting.

389
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Speaker 1: And it's also true that babies have different temperaments, and

390
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Speaker 1: so sometimes you'll see other mothers when you're a new

391
00:22:13,399 --> 00:22:15,799
Speaker 1: mother and they're like, my baby sleeps all the time,

392
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Speaker 1: and my baby's so calm, and it just makes you

393
00:22:19,199 --> 00:22:21,959
Speaker 1: feel like something is your fault. That probably isn't.

394
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Speaker 5: That's true too.

395
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Speaker 1: You said that during that time you started to think,

396
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Speaker 1: I can't do this again. I'm not sure that I

397
00:22:30,119 --> 00:22:33,719
Speaker 1: want to have another kid. So when did that shift

398
00:22:33,719 --> 00:22:37,279
Speaker 1: for you where you decided I would really like to

399
00:22:37,359 --> 00:22:39,639
Speaker 1: have another kid, And how did those conversations go with

400
00:22:39,679 --> 00:22:42,999
Speaker 1: your husband? Tell us more about what the plan was

401
00:22:43,079 --> 00:22:45,399
Speaker 1: between the two of you before you had your first child.

402
00:22:46,639 --> 00:22:50,839
Speaker 4: I always said I wanted four kids, and he always said,

403
00:22:51,759 --> 00:22:55,799
Speaker 4: I mean two is good. I think after she was

404
00:22:55,879 --> 00:23:00,639
Speaker 4: about a year and a half, we were back in

405
00:23:00,679 --> 00:23:05,279
Speaker 4: the same city as our family, but still kind of like, Okay,

406
00:23:05,319 --> 00:23:07,119
Speaker 4: well this is kind of a good time to start

407
00:23:07,159 --> 00:23:08,919
Speaker 4: thinking about it, because you want them.

408
00:23:08,799 --> 00:23:12,119
Speaker 7: To be the three years apart. You know that ideal

409
00:23:12,279 --> 00:23:15,919
Speaker 7: and who was bringing that up. Was it your husband

410
00:23:15,919 --> 00:23:18,519
Speaker 7: who said let's start thinking about this or was it you?

411
00:23:18,959 --> 00:23:22,039
Speaker 7: And did your husband ever say to you, you know,

412
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Speaker 7: I would be sad if we didn't try to have

413
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Speaker 7: another kid.

414
00:23:25,199 --> 00:23:29,439
Speaker 4: I guess we didn't have a specific conversation about it.

415
00:23:30,079 --> 00:23:33,039
Speaker 4: I think it was just more a sense of we're

416
00:23:33,079 --> 00:23:35,359
Speaker 4: just open to it, kind of if it happens, like

417
00:23:35,399 --> 00:23:37,799
Speaker 4: we're not gonna really try try, but.

418
00:23:37,839 --> 00:23:40,759
Speaker 1: We're open to it. So there wasn't a conversation with

419
00:23:40,799 --> 00:23:42,559
Speaker 1: your husband where he said, I know you've had a

420
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Speaker 1: really rough time. How are you feeling about the idea

421
00:23:47,319 --> 00:23:47,999
Speaker 1: of having more?

422
00:23:48,119 --> 00:23:52,039
Speaker 5: No, because I wanted I was like, yeah, I want more.

423
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Speaker 4: Even though I didn't really feel settled with one, I

424
00:23:55,039 --> 00:23:57,839
Speaker 4: felt like it was time to have to It's the

425
00:23:57,919 --> 00:24:00,319
Speaker 4: time so that they'll be close enough in age where

426
00:24:00,319 --> 00:24:01,559
Speaker 4: they can play together.

427
00:24:02,559 --> 00:24:05,679
Speaker 1: You keep talking about the time, but again, it sounds

428
00:24:05,679 --> 00:24:08,439
Speaker 1: like the conversation never happened. That this has been a

429
00:24:08,439 --> 00:24:11,399
Speaker 1: really stressful year and a half. You know, one point

430
00:24:11,439 --> 00:24:14,039
Speaker 1: you felt like you didn't think you could do this again,

431
00:24:14,959 --> 00:24:17,719
Speaker 1: And how are you feeling about it now? That conversation

432
00:24:17,839 --> 00:24:21,079
Speaker 1: between you and your husband didn't have not officially.

433
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Speaker 3: The thing about the time to me is another example

434
00:24:26,479 --> 00:24:29,319
Speaker 3: of you going by the this would be ideal. You

435
00:24:29,399 --> 00:24:32,519
Speaker 3: said three years is ideal, and it's fine as a

436
00:24:32,559 --> 00:24:36,079
Speaker 3: goal as a rough guideline, but there's a way in

437
00:24:36,079 --> 00:24:40,879
Speaker 3: which you internalize these quote unquote ideals that you really

438
00:24:40,919 --> 00:24:43,839
Speaker 3: set the expectation that it has to happen then, and

439
00:24:43,919 --> 00:24:46,159
Speaker 3: if it doesn't, it means that I'm not doing something

440
00:24:46,239 --> 00:24:48,399
Speaker 3: right or my body isn't doing something right. And it

441
00:24:48,479 --> 00:24:50,959
Speaker 3: sounds like you were even saying yes to trying at

442
00:24:50,959 --> 00:24:54,279
Speaker 3: that time because of the ideal rather than because it

443
00:24:54,319 --> 00:24:56,039
Speaker 3: felt like this was the right time for you.

444
00:24:56,999 --> 00:25:00,639
Speaker 4: Yeah, I remember thinking, I know people who have had trouble,

445
00:25:00,679 --> 00:25:03,119
Speaker 4: and so in case I have trouble, I would rather

446
00:25:03,279 --> 00:25:04,039
Speaker 4: start earlier.

447
00:25:05,199 --> 00:25:07,479
Speaker 1: And then you got pregnant right away with that pregnancy

448
00:25:07,519 --> 00:25:08,319
Speaker 1: that you told us about.

449
00:25:08,879 --> 00:25:10,759
Speaker 5: Yes, so I got pregnant right away.

450
00:25:10,759 --> 00:25:13,359
Speaker 4: Again, we weren't super trying, we were just open to it,

451
00:25:13,399 --> 00:25:16,839
Speaker 4: and I was like wow. I remember being really nervous,

452
00:25:17,639 --> 00:25:20,039
Speaker 4: you know, when we first found out, but then I

453
00:25:20,159 --> 00:25:22,479
Speaker 4: was excited and I was like, oh, this will be

454
00:25:22,519 --> 00:25:26,159
Speaker 4: really great and ended up kind of telling my parents

455
00:25:26,199 --> 00:25:32,359
Speaker 4: earlier than I thought because just like circumstance, and I

456
00:25:32,439 --> 00:25:34,879
Speaker 4: even went out and got like a big sister shirt

457
00:25:34,959 --> 00:25:41,279
Speaker 4: for our daughter and took pictures with her in it,

458
00:25:41,359 --> 00:25:43,079
Speaker 4: and I was like, Oh, this will be a cute

459
00:25:43,079 --> 00:25:45,679
Speaker 4: way to announce it. And then it was like a

460
00:25:45,719 --> 00:25:50,079
Speaker 4: couple days later that all my cramping started and everything happened.

461
00:25:50,839 --> 00:25:54,119
Speaker 3: And then there were two other losses that happened after

462
00:25:54,159 --> 00:25:54,639
Speaker 3: that one.

463
00:25:54,999 --> 00:25:59,039
Speaker 4: Yeah, so after my topic, I had a really really

464
00:25:59,159 --> 00:26:02,639
Speaker 4: really hard time with that loss. I was probably a

465
00:26:02,679 --> 00:26:05,439
Speaker 4: month out from surgery when my brother and sister in

466
00:26:05,479 --> 00:26:09,199
Speaker 4: law announced they were pregnant. So and I'm really close

467
00:26:09,599 --> 00:26:13,839
Speaker 4: to my brother, to that brother especially, and it really

468
00:26:13,919 --> 00:26:16,239
Speaker 4: kind of sucked the air out of me because I

469
00:26:16,359 --> 00:26:18,399
Speaker 4: was like, oh, now she's going to be pregnant over

470
00:26:18,439 --> 00:26:20,679
Speaker 4: Thanksgiving and Christmas, and I was going to be pregnant

471
00:26:20,679 --> 00:26:23,199
Speaker 4: over Thanksgiving and Christmas, and oh we could have been

472
00:26:23,199 --> 00:26:26,959
Speaker 4: pregnant together and all this stuff. So that was really hard,

473
00:26:26,999 --> 00:26:30,239
Speaker 4: and that really caused like a big friction in my

474
00:26:30,319 --> 00:26:32,999
Speaker 4: relationship with my brother and sister in law because I

475
00:26:33,079 --> 00:26:36,159
Speaker 4: just didn't want to be around them.

476
00:26:36,199 --> 00:26:37,079
Speaker 5: I just I.

477
00:26:36,999 --> 00:26:40,079
Speaker 4: Needed space, I needed to separate. I actually started going

478
00:26:40,079 --> 00:26:43,799
Speaker 4: to lost groups after that, and it was so nice

479
00:26:43,839 --> 00:26:46,599
Speaker 4: to not be alone, but it was also hard because

480
00:26:47,319 --> 00:26:49,319
Speaker 4: I started finding out all of the ways you could

481
00:26:49,359 --> 00:26:53,279
Speaker 4: lose a child. So before I knew about this many

482
00:26:53,319 --> 00:26:56,519
Speaker 4: ways to lose a child, and now I was like, oh, wow,

483
00:26:56,599 --> 00:27:00,079
Speaker 4: it can really happen. At forty weeks, you can lose

484
00:27:00,119 --> 00:27:01,879
Speaker 4: a child. Everything can be fine one day and the

485
00:27:01,919 --> 00:27:02,959
Speaker 4: next day I can't be.

486
00:27:04,119 --> 00:27:07,559
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's not necessarily great information for somebody who's struggling

487
00:27:07,599 --> 00:27:08,319
Speaker 3: with anxiety.

488
00:27:09,919 --> 00:27:11,759
Speaker 4: And then I was feeling guilty because a lot of

489
00:27:11,799 --> 00:27:14,639
Speaker 4: these groups I went to they didn't have any children,

490
00:27:15,479 --> 00:27:17,279
Speaker 4: and so then I was like, well, at least I

491
00:27:17,279 --> 00:27:17,719
Speaker 4: have one.

492
00:27:17,919 --> 00:27:20,799
Speaker 1: And so what you're doing there is you're doing the

493
00:27:20,879 --> 00:27:25,759
Speaker 1: comparative loss game, where you feel like, I don't deserve

494
00:27:26,439 --> 00:27:29,079
Speaker 1: to feel the depth of the loss that I'm feeling

495
00:27:29,159 --> 00:27:32,799
Speaker 1: because look what happened to this person. They lost their

496
00:27:32,839 --> 00:27:36,919
Speaker 1: baby thirty eight weeks and for me it was seven

497
00:27:36,959 --> 00:27:40,719
Speaker 1: weeks or I already have a child and they don't

498
00:27:40,719 --> 00:27:43,839
Speaker 1: have a child, so my loss isn't as intense as

499
00:27:43,879 --> 00:27:46,839
Speaker 1: their loss. And people do that all the time, and

500
00:27:46,879 --> 00:27:49,999
Speaker 1: I think that ties into this what guy was talking

501
00:27:49,999 --> 00:27:54,119
Speaker 1: about earlier about on the one hand, you perceive everything

502
00:27:54,119 --> 00:27:58,079
Speaker 1: that goes wrong as a personal failure. Of yours, and

503
00:27:58,159 --> 00:28:01,359
Speaker 1: on the other hand, you feel like, oh, but you know,

504
00:28:01,399 --> 00:28:05,399
Speaker 1: I really have it good, so I can't really experience

505
00:28:05,479 --> 00:28:07,719
Speaker 1: this loss and I need to kind of just buck

506
00:28:07,839 --> 00:28:10,879
Speaker 1: up and be happy for my brother when he announces

507
00:28:10,919 --> 00:28:13,919
Speaker 1: the pregnant SAT did your brother know what you had

508
00:28:13,959 --> 00:28:14,439
Speaker 1: been through?

509
00:28:15,039 --> 00:28:17,039
Speaker 4: Yes, And this is what made it even harder. And

510
00:28:17,079 --> 00:28:21,999
Speaker 4: my brother is super open about things, and so he

511
00:28:22,159 --> 00:28:26,279
Speaker 4: was even open with me when I was going through

512
00:28:26,319 --> 00:28:30,319
Speaker 4: it to say like, oh, well, we want another one,

513
00:28:30,439 --> 00:28:31,879
Speaker 4: but it's going to be a while.

514
00:28:31,999 --> 00:28:33,959
Speaker 5: It's definitely going to be a while until we have

515
00:28:33,999 --> 00:28:36,479
Speaker 5: another one. So in my mind I was.

516
00:28:36,439 --> 00:28:38,759
Speaker 4: Like, okay, good, I'm not gonna have to deal with

517
00:28:38,799 --> 00:28:40,759
Speaker 4: any pregnant family members for a while.

518
00:28:41,159 --> 00:28:42,959
Speaker 5: And also I shared.

519
00:28:42,599 --> 00:28:46,839
Speaker 4: With him about how hard it was, and he goes, well,

520
00:28:47,039 --> 00:28:51,199
Speaker 4: a lot of people have miscarriages. It's pretty common, and

521
00:28:51,279 --> 00:28:57,599
Speaker 4: so it felt very dismissed and very invalidated. And then

522
00:28:57,639 --> 00:29:00,399
Speaker 4: a week later or not probably not a week later,

523
00:29:00,479 --> 00:29:03,279
Speaker 4: but a couple of weeks later is when he shared

524
00:29:03,279 --> 00:29:09,559
Speaker 4: that they were pregnant and then couldn't understand why. You know,

525
00:29:09,599 --> 00:29:11,559
Speaker 4: I needed more than a day to process it, and

526
00:29:11,719 --> 00:29:13,839
Speaker 4: was very hurt about the fact that I didn't want

527
00:29:13,879 --> 00:29:17,399
Speaker 4: to see them, and so it just made it hard.

528
00:29:18,119 --> 00:29:20,999
Speaker 3: And has that relationship been repaired since then.

529
00:29:21,119 --> 00:29:24,479
Speaker 4: It has made very helpful by the fact that his

530
00:29:24,679 --> 00:29:27,159
Speaker 4: oldest daughter and my daughter are a year apart and

531
00:29:27,199 --> 00:29:30,519
Speaker 4: they're like best friends, and so it sort of forced

532
00:29:30,559 --> 00:29:32,119
Speaker 4: me to be like, well, I want my daughter to

533
00:29:32,159 --> 00:29:34,919
Speaker 4: see her cousin and have that relationship.

534
00:29:35,559 --> 00:29:38,159
Speaker 5: And then also once my nephew.

535
00:29:37,879 --> 00:29:42,879
Speaker 4: Was born, it was easier to be around him and

536
00:29:42,959 --> 00:29:45,839
Speaker 4: to really just love and adore him and say it's

537
00:29:45,839 --> 00:29:48,679
Speaker 4: not his fault, it's not you know, he's a beautiful

538
00:29:48,679 --> 00:29:52,279
Speaker 4: gift and he's here and it's you know, a wonderful

539
00:29:52,279 --> 00:29:56,079
Speaker 4: addition to our family. And you know, they recently announced

540
00:29:56,079 --> 00:29:59,199
Speaker 4: that they're pregnant with their thirds, so and here I

541
00:29:59,239 --> 00:30:01,399
Speaker 4: am still barren as ever, so I'm like, wow, they've

542
00:30:01,399 --> 00:30:04,679
Speaker 4: had three children and I just have one time amount

543
00:30:04,719 --> 00:30:05,999
Speaker 4: I've just had one.

544
00:30:06,159 --> 00:30:09,199
Speaker 1: That sounds so painful and you're sort of laughing through it.

545
00:30:10,079 --> 00:30:14,119
Speaker 1: But the way that you talk about it is, well,

546
00:30:14,199 --> 00:30:17,639
Speaker 1: I'm here, I am I'm barren, as if it's your

547
00:30:17,719 --> 00:30:21,359
Speaker 1: fault or you have any control over this. Again, going

548
00:30:21,399 --> 00:30:25,159
Speaker 1: back to that perception as this being a personal failure

549
00:30:25,199 --> 00:30:29,399
Speaker 1: of yours, and I think that just adds to the pain.

550
00:30:29,599 --> 00:30:32,079
Speaker 1: The pain is going to be there, but when you

551
00:30:32,479 --> 00:30:36,759
Speaker 1: frame it that way, I think you're layering more pain

552
00:30:36,919 --> 00:30:39,279
Speaker 1: on top of the already existing pain.

553
00:30:40,479 --> 00:30:40,679
Speaker 5: Yeah.

554
00:30:40,759 --> 00:30:43,079
Speaker 4: Part of what why I wrote to you guys, because

555
00:30:43,119 --> 00:30:44,879
Speaker 4: it's like, I don't even know how to process it

556
00:30:44,959 --> 00:30:46,199
Speaker 4: all well.

557
00:30:46,239 --> 00:30:49,799
Speaker 3: In part because it's been such a series of trauma

558
00:30:50,559 --> 00:30:54,959
Speaker 3: and loss, the birth being really difficult, the postpartum depression,

559
00:30:55,039 --> 00:30:58,919
Speaker 3: struggling to get help but really not finding the help

560
00:30:58,959 --> 00:31:03,119
Speaker 3: that you needed, and then struggling for so long afterwards

561
00:31:03,159 --> 00:31:06,159
Speaker 3: even and then you have that other pregnancy, the ectomic pregnancy,

562
00:31:06,159 --> 00:31:08,479
Speaker 3: and all the trauma of that and the incredible pain

563
00:31:08,519 --> 00:31:10,759
Speaker 3: that you were in, and that was one thing after

564
00:31:10,799 --> 00:31:12,919
Speaker 3: the other, and then getting that text when you're in

565
00:31:12,959 --> 00:31:16,119
Speaker 3: the ar and then in any event, it sounds like

566
00:31:16,159 --> 00:31:19,839
Speaker 3: it's been quite relentless, and so in part it's hard

567
00:31:19,879 --> 00:31:22,879
Speaker 3: to make sense of things when you're still in them.

568
00:31:23,799 --> 00:31:24,159
Speaker 5: Yeah.

569
00:31:24,199 --> 00:31:27,719
Speaker 1: Absolutely. And the other thing about this kind of loss

570
00:31:27,759 --> 00:31:30,079
Speaker 1: is that you have to face it every day in

571
00:31:30,119 --> 00:31:32,799
Speaker 1: the sense of you walk out onto the street and

572
00:31:32,839 --> 00:31:37,319
Speaker 1: there are babies, and there are pregnant women, and you're

573
00:31:37,359 --> 00:31:40,199
Speaker 1: walking down the aisles of target and you think you're

574
00:31:40,199 --> 00:31:42,079
Speaker 1: just going for the things that you need, but oop,

575
00:31:42,079 --> 00:31:44,719
Speaker 1: there's the diaper aisle and look at these women there,

576
00:31:45,439 --> 00:31:49,079
Speaker 1: and you want to where maybe you do burst into

577
00:31:49,079 --> 00:31:54,519
Speaker 1: tears in public and nobody knows this internal struggle that

578
00:31:54,599 --> 00:31:57,279
Speaker 1: you're experiencing. And I don't know if people at work

579
00:31:57,399 --> 00:32:00,519
Speaker 1: know what's going on with you, if other friends know

580
00:32:00,559 --> 00:32:02,639
Speaker 1: what's going on with you, if it's just your family.

581
00:32:03,239 --> 00:32:07,279
Speaker 1: But often people don't realize that even though you are

582
00:32:07,359 --> 00:32:11,279
Speaker 1: trying to manage and get through your day, that reminders

583
00:32:11,319 --> 00:32:13,319
Speaker 1: of this pop up all the time, and ad will

584
00:32:13,359 --> 00:32:16,919
Speaker 1: pop up on your computer for baby products. Guy used

585
00:32:16,959 --> 00:32:20,719
Speaker 1: the word relentless, and I think it is relentless. And

586
00:32:20,759 --> 00:32:23,639
Speaker 1: there's that the silence of it because a lot of

587
00:32:23,639 --> 00:32:26,479
Speaker 1: people don't know. It's not visible what you're going through.

588
00:32:26,999 --> 00:32:29,759
Speaker 1: And then there's the again, the ambiguous grief of like

589
00:32:29,839 --> 00:32:32,399
Speaker 1: maybe this month, oh no, not this month, it didn't happen,

590
00:32:33,239 --> 00:32:36,599
Speaker 1: will it ever happen? So am I grieving that I'm

591
00:32:36,639 --> 00:32:38,479
Speaker 1: never going to have a second child? Or am I

592
00:32:38,559 --> 00:32:40,479
Speaker 1: grieving the loss that's right in front of me right

593
00:32:40,559 --> 00:32:43,479
Speaker 1: now that this this month I'm not having a second child.

594
00:32:43,679 --> 00:32:47,159
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, all those things we had to wait

595
00:32:47,199 --> 00:32:48,759
Speaker 4: a while after I had to wait like at least

596
00:32:48,759 --> 00:32:53,439
Speaker 4: six months after my surgery, and then I was able

597
00:32:53,519 --> 00:32:57,519
Speaker 4: to get pregnant again and was happy about it.

598
00:32:57,679 --> 00:32:59,639
Speaker 5: But next day I started bleeding.

599
00:33:00,119 --> 00:33:02,959
Speaker 4: Then we have to do this you know, procedure to

600
00:33:02,999 --> 00:33:07,119
Speaker 4: suck out the tissue, and so not even that was

601
00:33:07,159 --> 00:33:08,319
Speaker 4: like a simple process.

602
00:33:08,999 --> 00:33:11,159
Speaker 5: It was like, okay, is this my life?

603
00:33:11,159 --> 00:33:13,279
Speaker 4: But I was like I can't. This can't happen more

604
00:33:13,319 --> 00:33:13,879
Speaker 4: than twice.

605
00:33:14,279 --> 00:33:14,799
Speaker 5: And so.

606
00:33:16,279 --> 00:33:18,999
Speaker 4: It was maybe not even six weeks later that I

607
00:33:18,999 --> 00:33:21,999
Speaker 4: found out I was pregnant again, and so I was

608
00:33:22,159 --> 00:33:25,679
Speaker 4: very excited and like I felt really confident this time.

609
00:33:25,999 --> 00:33:29,719
Speaker 4: And I actually started getting like nauseous the next week

610
00:33:29,879 --> 00:33:34,599
Speaker 4: and really really tired and just really had a lot

611
00:33:34,639 --> 00:33:40,159
Speaker 4: of symptoms of pregnancy, and went to get my blood

612
00:33:40,199 --> 00:33:43,599
Speaker 4: work done and they just said, well, it's kind of uncertain,

613
00:33:44,319 --> 00:33:46,839
Speaker 4: why don't you come back, And it was scheduled for

614
00:33:46,919 --> 00:33:49,279
Speaker 4: New Year's Eve. So it was really hard because I

615
00:33:49,279 --> 00:33:53,519
Speaker 4: had to go through Christmas and everything like not telling anybody,

616
00:33:54,159 --> 00:33:57,319
Speaker 4: And so we went for the ultrasound on New Year's

617
00:33:57,319 --> 00:34:02,999
Speaker 4: Eve and they just said, I'm sorry, you know, the

618
00:34:03,039 --> 00:34:07,239
Speaker 4: baby step growing, and you know, I was devastated, and

619
00:34:07,279 --> 00:34:11,159
Speaker 4: I cried and my husband got like he looked like

620
00:34:11,199 --> 00:34:14,239
Speaker 4: he was really upset, and I was like, oh my gosh,

621
00:34:14,559 --> 00:34:19,159
Speaker 4: he's finally showing emotion. The doctor left the room or whatever,

622
00:34:19,599 --> 00:34:23,039
Speaker 4: but he literally said to me, you have one at home,

623
00:34:23,159 --> 00:34:26,199
Speaker 4: right and I said yes, and he goes, you'll have

624
00:34:26,239 --> 00:34:29,079
Speaker 4: three kids before you know it, and I was like, what,

625
00:34:30,119 --> 00:34:33,679
Speaker 4: this is so invalidating and so upsetting, and then they,

626
00:34:33,719 --> 00:34:35,719
Speaker 4: you know, they go, you can let yourself out the

627
00:34:35,719 --> 00:34:38,279
Speaker 4: back door because nobody wants a crying person to walk

628
00:34:38,319 --> 00:34:42,279
Speaker 4: through the waiting room, and so you literally have to

629
00:34:42,319 --> 00:34:45,119
Speaker 4: go out the back door to the parking garage. And

630
00:34:45,199 --> 00:34:49,319
Speaker 4: so it just felt very like this is not happening again,

631
00:34:49,479 --> 00:34:50,719
Speaker 4: like how am I going to get through this? Like

632
00:34:50,759 --> 00:34:54,199
Speaker 4: this feels absolutely impossible? How am I going to even

633
00:34:54,239 --> 00:34:56,959
Speaker 4: try again? Because how could I ever go through this again?

634
00:34:58,079 --> 00:35:01,799
Speaker 4: And that also just absolutely broke me.

635
00:35:03,199 --> 00:35:05,599
Speaker 3: So you got this devastating news, then you know you

636
00:35:05,679 --> 00:35:08,159
Speaker 3: have to go through a devastating medical procedure which can't

637
00:35:08,159 --> 00:35:11,599
Speaker 3: be even more pain for emotionally because of it, and

638
00:35:11,639 --> 00:35:14,079
Speaker 3: you're thinking, I can't go through this again. I'm not

639
00:35:14,079 --> 00:35:16,599
Speaker 3: sure how I'm getting through it this time. Were you

640
00:35:16,919 --> 00:35:19,759
Speaker 3: able to verbalize that to your husband. Was he able

641
00:35:19,799 --> 00:35:21,639
Speaker 3: to be there for you and understand the depths of

642
00:35:21,679 --> 00:35:23,719
Speaker 3: your despair at that moment?

643
00:35:25,359 --> 00:35:26,479
Speaker 5: In some ways? Yes?

644
00:35:26,599 --> 00:35:31,359
Speaker 4: I mean he said, I'm sad, you know, I wanted

645
00:35:31,359 --> 00:35:34,879
Speaker 4: this baby, but like this is going to sound bad,

646
00:35:34,919 --> 00:35:37,679
Speaker 4: but I was just like, why why doesn't this hurt

647
00:35:37,759 --> 00:35:38,119
Speaker 4: you more?

648
00:35:38,319 --> 00:35:41,519
Speaker 5: Why isn't this more painful for you?

649
00:35:43,239 --> 00:35:45,359
Speaker 3: What are the discussions like between the two of you

650
00:35:45,479 --> 00:35:47,719
Speaker 3: now about what your options are?

651
00:35:48,079 --> 00:35:50,079
Speaker 4: Well, you know, we just talked about this the other

652
00:35:50,159 --> 00:35:54,319
Speaker 4: day because I said, do we even want a second one?

653
00:35:54,679 --> 00:35:55,639
Speaker 5: Because I feel like.

654
00:35:55,639 --> 00:35:58,559
Speaker 4: I'm pushing harder than you are. He said, you are

655
00:35:58,599 --> 00:36:01,839
Speaker 4: pushing harder, but I do want another one.

656
00:36:03,279 --> 00:36:05,999
Speaker 1: Do you know if he has any fears about what

657
00:36:06,079 --> 00:36:08,839
Speaker 1: it might be like to try again given what you

658
00:36:08,879 --> 00:36:09,759
Speaker 1: both have be and through.

659
00:36:11,119 --> 00:36:14,119
Speaker 5: I don't know I should.

660
00:36:13,879 --> 00:36:17,639
Speaker 1: Ask him that is there a plan between the two

661
00:36:17,679 --> 00:36:22,359
Speaker 1: of you, like if we keep trying after this many months,

662
00:36:22,839 --> 00:36:26,919
Speaker 1: we are willing to try other measures or other ideas,

663
00:36:27,519 --> 00:36:30,759
Speaker 1: or we're going to say we're going to kind of

664
00:36:30,759 --> 00:36:33,959
Speaker 1: close the book on this if it doesn't happen after

665
00:36:33,959 --> 00:36:37,079
Speaker 1: a certain amount of time. And are you two on

666
00:36:37,159 --> 00:36:40,479
Speaker 1: the same page, because often what happens is one person

667
00:36:40,559 --> 00:36:42,559
Speaker 1: feels like I'm willing to do this, and the other

668
00:36:42,599 --> 00:36:45,599
Speaker 1: person feels like I've had enough. Where are the two

669
00:36:45,679 --> 00:36:47,439
Speaker 1: of you? Do you even know?

670
00:36:48,279 --> 00:36:50,359
Speaker 5: I don't know? And this is so sad for me,

671
00:36:50,879 --> 00:36:52,279
Speaker 5: Like you don't know.

672
00:36:52,279 --> 00:36:54,239
Speaker 3: Where you are, or you don't know where he is,

673
00:36:54,359 --> 00:36:55,599
Speaker 3: or you don't know both both.

674
00:36:56,039 --> 00:36:56,639
Speaker 5: I feel like.

675
00:36:58,119 --> 00:37:01,799
Speaker 4: I don't know how to talk to him about it

676
00:37:01,839 --> 00:37:07,959
Speaker 4: because what we've talked about has just sort of been like, well,

677
00:37:08,039 --> 00:37:11,839
Speaker 4: let's just try this now and see if it works.

678
00:37:12,119 --> 00:37:17,439
Speaker 4: Like at what point do I just say like one

679
00:37:17,559 --> 00:37:20,639
Speaker 4: is enough and like I hate saying that because my

680
00:37:20,759 --> 00:37:22,359
Speaker 4: daughter is enough, and so.

681
00:37:24,919 --> 00:37:25,839
Speaker 5: I struggle with this.

682
00:37:26,759 --> 00:37:27,279
Speaker 3: It can be.

683
00:37:27,319 --> 00:37:30,559
Speaker 1: Both and that your daughter is enough and you want

684
00:37:30,599 --> 00:37:31,439
Speaker 1: a second child.

685
00:37:33,399 --> 00:37:36,399
Speaker 3: I understand you have these discussions with your husband occasionally,

686
00:37:36,439 --> 00:37:40,559
Speaker 3: certainly when stuff happens. How much is it in the

687
00:37:40,599 --> 00:37:44,359
Speaker 3: air between you in the day to day, how much

688
00:37:44,599 --> 00:37:47,079
Speaker 3: is it in your head in the day to day

689
00:37:47,159 --> 00:37:50,319
Speaker 3: versus his, and how much is it hovering between you

690
00:37:51,279 --> 00:37:51,839
Speaker 3: right now?

691
00:37:52,079 --> 00:37:56,119
Speaker 4: I would say it's a huge part of where I'm at.

692
00:37:56,599 --> 00:37:59,079
Speaker 4: I take like fifteen supplements a day at this point,

693
00:37:59,119 --> 00:38:02,759
Speaker 4: and he's taking supplements, and I'm like did you take

694
00:38:02,759 --> 00:38:07,599
Speaker 4: your supplements? And then I feel bad about that And

695
00:38:07,639 --> 00:38:09,999
Speaker 4: sometimes I'm like, well, can you just drink glass like

696
00:38:10,079 --> 00:38:12,319
Speaker 4: so that, like do you care about this?

697
00:38:12,559 --> 00:38:14,879
Speaker 1: Like what does he say when you ask him do

698
00:38:14,919 --> 00:38:17,319
Speaker 1: you care about this? And when you feel like you

699
00:38:17,399 --> 00:38:19,879
Speaker 1: have to be the person who reminds him to do

700
00:38:20,239 --> 00:38:22,879
Speaker 1: these things that might help increase your chances of having

701
00:38:22,879 --> 00:38:23,679
Speaker 1: a child.

702
00:38:24,079 --> 00:38:26,759
Speaker 5: He gets mad, like, of course I do, of course

703
00:38:26,799 --> 00:38:31,359
Speaker 5: I care. It's so hard for him.

704
00:38:31,359 --> 00:38:33,719
Speaker 3: It sounds like it's a little bit more sporadic. He

705
00:38:33,799 --> 00:38:36,439
Speaker 3: might be taking supplements every morning, but he's not living

706
00:38:36,479 --> 00:38:41,759
Speaker 3: it every minute, perhaps the way you are. Does he

707
00:38:41,879 --> 00:38:45,639
Speaker 3: talk to you about that about whether is he concerned

708
00:38:45,639 --> 00:38:49,479
Speaker 3: that you're too much in it too much of the time.

709
00:38:49,919 --> 00:38:52,479
Speaker 3: Is he expressing your concern about you being able to

710
00:38:52,519 --> 00:38:56,319
Speaker 3: be fully present in the lives that you have.

711
00:38:57,719 --> 00:39:01,279
Speaker 4: Yeah, Like I think he wishes I could just like

712
00:39:02,159 --> 00:39:06,439
Speaker 4: let go and just not be so anxious about things.

713
00:39:07,279 --> 00:39:10,039
Speaker 3: What is the state of the couplehood and how are

714
00:39:10,079 --> 00:39:14,479
Speaker 3: you doing together as a married couple with a young daughter.

715
00:39:15,799 --> 00:39:18,159
Speaker 4: Yeah, I feel like we're doing good. But even like

716
00:39:18,199 --> 00:39:20,479
Speaker 4: you just starting a new job that's like really stressful,

717
00:39:20,919 --> 00:39:22,719
Speaker 4: And so the other day I was like, Oh, do

718
00:39:22,759 --> 00:39:26,199
Speaker 4: you just feel overwhelmed, and he goes, no, I don't

719
00:39:26,199 --> 00:39:29,959
Speaker 4: get overwhelmed. I'm just figuring it out, and I'm like,

720
00:39:30,239 --> 00:39:31,559
Speaker 4: I'm always overwhelmed.

721
00:39:32,559 --> 00:39:36,199
Speaker 1: I don't know, but that right there might be in

722
00:39:36,239 --> 00:39:40,079
Speaker 1: a microcosm the way that the two of you are

723
00:39:40,119 --> 00:39:46,559
Speaker 1: dealing with this pregnancy issue, that he does feel things.

724
00:39:47,239 --> 00:39:50,839
Speaker 1: He does have anxiety or sadness or with times he

725
00:39:50,919 --> 00:39:55,599
Speaker 1: might have been devastated, but the way that he manages

726
00:39:55,719 --> 00:39:58,079
Speaker 1: those feelings is different from the way that you do.

727
00:39:58,159 --> 00:39:59,959
Speaker 1: And it doesn't mean one is better than the other.

728
00:40:00,119 --> 00:40:02,839
Speaker 1: It just means that sometimes couples can feel like, well,

729
00:40:02,839 --> 00:40:05,879
Speaker 1: why aren't you feeling anything about this? And he might

730
00:40:05,919 --> 00:40:08,359
Speaker 1: be feeling a lot about it, but what he does

731
00:40:08,399 --> 00:40:10,359
Speaker 1: with those feelings is a little bit different, and so

732
00:40:10,399 --> 00:40:12,119
Speaker 1: you don't see it in the same way.

733
00:40:12,599 --> 00:40:15,559
Speaker 4: Yeah, Like, how do I get him to acknowledge his feelings?

734
00:40:16,999 --> 00:40:19,119
Speaker 3: I think from what you're describing, what he does is

735
00:40:19,159 --> 00:40:22,519
Speaker 3: he can compartmentalize. What that means is that what you

736
00:40:22,559 --> 00:40:27,039
Speaker 3: put aside is not the knowledge of what happened, but

737
00:40:27,159 --> 00:40:30,599
Speaker 3: the emotion attached to it. You can detach from that feeling,

738
00:40:30,679 --> 00:40:34,039
Speaker 3: have the awareness, but really kind of segment the feeling

739
00:40:34,039 --> 00:40:38,159
Speaker 3: away to a certain extent. And I think that you

740
00:40:38,359 --> 00:40:41,279
Speaker 3: chose him perhaps for this reason, because you are somebody

741
00:40:41,279 --> 00:40:44,559
Speaker 3: who deals with a lot of anxiety, but you chose

742
00:40:44,559 --> 00:40:48,639
Speaker 3: somebody rocks onlid. You chose somebody who has these emotions

743
00:40:48,679 --> 00:40:51,639
Speaker 3: but manages them in a way that he's like steady

744
00:40:51,759 --> 00:40:53,919
Speaker 3: Eddy all the time. And you are somebody who tends

745
00:40:53,959 --> 00:40:56,639
Speaker 3: to be anxious, And so it's actually really useful to

746
00:40:56,639 --> 00:41:00,719
Speaker 3: be with someone who's very steady, because then it doesn't

747
00:41:00,759 --> 00:41:03,519
Speaker 3: compound the anxiety. When two people get anxious at the

748
00:41:03,519 --> 00:41:07,159
Speaker 3: same time, they can really feed into one another. I

749
00:41:07,279 --> 00:41:10,119
Speaker 3: do want to ask you, though, are you aware of

750
00:41:10,159 --> 00:41:12,999
Speaker 3: the severity of the anxiety that you have? Are you

751
00:41:14,599 --> 00:41:17,319
Speaker 3: treating it still?

752
00:41:17,479 --> 00:41:21,159
Speaker 4: I am still taking medicine for it, but I think

753
00:41:21,199 --> 00:41:24,759
Speaker 4: it's gotten worse. I've had a few people say like, oh,

754
00:41:24,799 --> 00:41:28,559
Speaker 4: you need to talk to somebody about, you know, your

755
00:41:28,559 --> 00:41:32,359
Speaker 4: struggles and things like that. One of the big things

756
00:41:32,399 --> 00:41:40,199
Speaker 4: I'm struggling with is just managing Like I almost just

757
00:41:40,279 --> 00:41:43,639
Speaker 4: wish I could be like just oh, I'm just gonna

758
00:41:43,679 --> 00:41:45,719
Speaker 4: have one and then just be done so that I

759
00:41:45,759 --> 00:41:48,079
Speaker 4: don't have to, like, you know, worry about all this

760
00:41:48,439 --> 00:41:54,519
Speaker 4: stuff and have it be so consuming, but like I

761
00:41:54,519 --> 00:41:56,839
Speaker 4: can't get it out of my mind that like I

762
00:41:56,879 --> 00:41:59,799
Speaker 4: don't necessarily feel like our families complete, and I do,

763
00:41:59,919 --> 00:42:03,439
Speaker 4: there is like hope there that maybe maybe it's not.

764
00:42:05,679 --> 00:42:08,639
Speaker 4: But then I also know that if I do get

765
00:42:08,679 --> 00:42:12,199
Speaker 4: that positive pregnancy test, but that's only the beginning, and

766
00:42:12,199 --> 00:42:15,559
Speaker 4: then like there's nine months of different anxiety.

767
00:42:16,799 --> 00:42:19,239
Speaker 1: I think what you're talking about is that you're in

768
00:42:19,279 --> 00:42:22,279
Speaker 1: this situation where you feel like you have so little

769
00:42:22,319 --> 00:42:27,159
Speaker 1: control not only of whether you get pregnant, or whether

770
00:42:27,199 --> 00:42:30,119
Speaker 1: the pregnancy is viable, or whether the pregnancy results in

771
00:42:30,159 --> 00:42:33,759
Speaker 1: a healthy baby, but also in terms of what happens

772
00:42:33,879 --> 00:42:36,039
Speaker 1: when you wake up in the morning, and what's going

773
00:42:36,079 --> 00:42:37,719
Speaker 1: to pop up on your screen, and what you're going

774
00:42:37,759 --> 00:42:40,279
Speaker 1: to see on Facebook, and who's going to announce a

775
00:42:40,279 --> 00:42:45,399
Speaker 1: new pregnancy. So all of that feels very unpredictable and

776
00:42:45,479 --> 00:42:48,159
Speaker 1: out of your control. But I think there are certain

777
00:42:48,159 --> 00:42:50,839
Speaker 1: things that you do have control over. Do I want

778
00:42:50,879 --> 00:42:52,679
Speaker 1: to know if someone's pregnant, or do I want to

779
00:42:52,679 --> 00:42:55,799
Speaker 1: know later on whether they're farther along, or maybe an

780
00:42:55,839 --> 00:42:59,319
Speaker 1: email would be better for me because I don't want

781
00:42:59,319 --> 00:43:03,079
Speaker 1: to have to respond in that moment it's excruciating to

782
00:43:03,159 --> 00:43:04,999
Speaker 1: have to respond in that moment. It's like I hear

783
00:43:04,999 --> 00:43:07,239
Speaker 1: this from single people a lot, where they say, you know,

784
00:43:07,279 --> 00:43:09,239
Speaker 1: my friend called me and she told me she got engaged.

785
00:43:09,439 --> 00:43:10,999
Speaker 1: I was supposed to be so happy, and it was

786
00:43:11,039 --> 00:43:13,039
Speaker 1: the third person that month who told me they were

787
00:43:13,079 --> 00:43:17,439
Speaker 1: engaged the same thing. And so maybe the parts that

788
00:43:17,479 --> 00:43:20,199
Speaker 1: you have control over are the parts that I think

789
00:43:20,239 --> 00:43:22,999
Speaker 1: are important to focus on. How do I deal with

790
00:43:23,119 --> 00:43:26,599
Speaker 1: going out in the world and the inevitable injuries that

791
00:43:26,639 --> 00:43:29,719
Speaker 1: I'm going to experience as I go through my day.

792
00:43:30,639 --> 00:43:34,319
Speaker 1: What parts of that might I ask something from people

793
00:43:34,359 --> 00:43:38,879
Speaker 1: around me to help me through this. And so before

794
00:43:38,919 --> 00:43:40,759
Speaker 1: we get to the advice, we just had one last

795
00:43:40,759 --> 00:43:43,519
Speaker 1: thing we wanted to ask about, which is tell us

796
00:43:43,519 --> 00:43:48,279
Speaker 1: a little bit about your daughter and what her experience

797
00:43:48,319 --> 00:43:48,759
Speaker 1: of all.

798
00:43:48,639 --> 00:43:49,199
Speaker 5: Of this is.

799
00:43:50,359 --> 00:43:53,119
Speaker 4: I am so grateful that she was so young when

800
00:43:53,159 --> 00:43:55,159
Speaker 4: I had my first loss and I was trying to

801
00:43:55,199 --> 00:44:00,239
Speaker 4: process it so much. But I mean, I haven't been shy,

802
00:44:00,399 --> 00:44:05,119
Speaker 4: like you know, I believe that my losses are angels

803
00:44:05,119 --> 00:44:08,079
Speaker 4: and that they're you know, they're in heaven. And so

804
00:44:08,119 --> 00:44:10,519
Speaker 4: she's asked about siblings before, and I've told her, oh,

805
00:44:10,599 --> 00:44:12,159
Speaker 4: you have brothers and sisters in heaven.

806
00:44:12,839 --> 00:44:14,239
Speaker 5: So in the fall, we.

807
00:44:14,399 --> 00:44:19,399
Speaker 4: Lost our first pets, our first pet that we had together,

808
00:44:20,399 --> 00:44:24,119
Speaker 4: and she was kind of like mine before we got married,

809
00:44:24,159 --> 00:44:27,959
Speaker 4: and so it is very very hard on all of us.

810
00:44:28,679 --> 00:44:35,279
Speaker 4: But my husband especially was like outwardly crying for the

811
00:44:35,479 --> 00:44:40,279
Speaker 4: first time in a long time. And one of my

812
00:44:40,319 --> 00:44:43,919
Speaker 4: first thoughts was, how dare you get this upset about

813
00:44:43,919 --> 00:44:46,719
Speaker 4: our cat when you didn't even cry this much about

814
00:44:46,759 --> 00:44:50,199
Speaker 4: our children. And then I felt bad for a feeling

815
00:44:50,319 --> 00:44:53,159
Speaker 4: like that and was kind of just like, well, at

816
00:44:53,279 --> 00:44:56,039
Speaker 4: least it feels nice not to grieve alone.

817
00:44:56,679 --> 00:44:59,599
Speaker 3: Sometimes in couples, when one of them sees the other

818
00:44:59,639 --> 00:45:03,239
Speaker 3: one is really really struggling, they really button up their

819
00:45:03,279 --> 00:45:06,759
Speaker 3: emotions because it's difficult for two people to go to

820
00:45:06,799 --> 00:45:09,759
Speaker 3: pieces at the same time, and it's supposed to bullet

821
00:45:09,759 --> 00:45:12,879
Speaker 3: with a cat. He saw that you were managing it better,

822
00:45:13,599 --> 00:45:17,119
Speaker 3: and therefore he allowed himself to access his feelings a

823
00:45:17,159 --> 00:45:20,199
Speaker 3: little bit more, and his concern for you. In the

824
00:45:20,279 --> 00:45:24,159
Speaker 3: other cases of losing the pregnancies, his concern for you

825
00:45:25,239 --> 00:45:30,639
Speaker 3: didn't allow him to access his own feelings. So it

826
00:45:30,639 --> 00:45:33,239
Speaker 3: wasn't a statement about what he was grieving more. It

827
00:45:33,279 --> 00:45:36,479
Speaker 3: was a statement about where he felt he had room

828
00:45:37,439 --> 00:45:39,439
Speaker 3: to access those feelings.

829
00:45:40,079 --> 00:45:44,039
Speaker 1: And it's also possible that because he felt like he

830
00:45:44,079 --> 00:45:48,079
Speaker 1: had permission to grieve, that he wasn't just grieving the cat,

831
00:45:48,519 --> 00:45:51,439
Speaker 1: that it was complicated, and that he was grieving the

832
00:45:51,479 --> 00:45:55,399
Speaker 1: cat and he was grieving all the other losses that

833
00:45:55,479 --> 00:46:00,039
Speaker 1: he had held inside for all this time. But you

834
00:46:00,119 --> 00:46:02,559
Speaker 1: don't know because the two of you haven't really talked

835
00:46:02,559 --> 00:46:10,999
Speaker 1: about it. So, Diane, you've been through and it has

836
00:46:11,079 --> 00:46:14,519
Speaker 1: touched everyone in the family. And we do have some

837
00:46:14,599 --> 00:46:17,959
Speaker 1: advice that we'd like you to try this week. And

838
00:46:17,999 --> 00:46:22,959
Speaker 1: the first part is that something that really feeds anxiety

839
00:46:23,519 --> 00:46:28,039
Speaker 1: is a sense of lack of control. And there's a

840
00:46:28,079 --> 00:46:30,199
Speaker 1: lot that we don't have control over in life, but

841
00:46:30,239 --> 00:46:32,759
Speaker 1: there are some things that we do. And one of

842
00:46:32,799 --> 00:46:35,239
Speaker 1: the ways that we think you might feel like you

843
00:46:35,239 --> 00:46:38,199
Speaker 1: have a little more control in this situation is to

844
00:46:38,279 --> 00:46:41,799
Speaker 1: have a plan that you and your husband agree upon.

845
00:46:43,559 --> 00:46:45,159
Speaker 1: And so we'd like you to sit down with your

846
00:46:45,199 --> 00:46:51,319
Speaker 1: husband and have a real direct conversation about what is

847
00:46:51,359 --> 00:46:55,879
Speaker 1: our plan given where we are now, and very specifically,

848
00:46:57,079 --> 00:47:02,839
Speaker 1: are we willing to try one round of IVF Are

849
00:47:02,839 --> 00:47:06,079
Speaker 1: we willing to try none? Are we willing to try too.

850
00:47:06,119 --> 00:47:09,719
Speaker 1: What would be our timetable on that? How long are

851
00:47:09,719 --> 00:47:13,959
Speaker 1: we going to continue the acupuncture and the supplements. Are

852
00:47:13,959 --> 00:47:17,559
Speaker 1: we going to consider adoption or a surrogate or a

853
00:47:17,599 --> 00:47:21,159
Speaker 1: donor are we going to keep trying naturally? And for

854
00:47:21,239 --> 00:47:25,039
Speaker 1: how long? So that you're not living in the maybe

855
00:47:25,839 --> 00:47:28,239
Speaker 1: and in the will, We'll just kind of leave it

856
00:47:28,319 --> 00:47:32,359
Speaker 1: up to something out there, but that we're taking action

857
00:47:32,919 --> 00:47:35,919
Speaker 1: with an agreed upon plan and then you know, we'll

858
00:47:35,919 --> 00:47:38,079
Speaker 1: see what happens. We don't have control over that, but

859
00:47:38,119 --> 00:47:41,919
Speaker 1: we do have control over the plan, and that's something

860
00:47:41,959 --> 00:47:44,719
Speaker 1: you can come up with together in terms of what

861
00:47:44,799 --> 00:47:49,039
Speaker 1: you're both comfortable with where you're both at emotionally, physically,

862
00:47:49,479 --> 00:47:51,639
Speaker 1: fatigue wise at this point.

863
00:47:52,679 --> 00:47:57,639
Speaker 4: How do you recommend having him think about it? Because

864
00:47:57,679 --> 00:48:00,199
Speaker 4: I feel like he's just going to say we'll figure it.

865
00:48:00,159 --> 00:48:04,959
Speaker 3: Out, and you'll say, actually, as you know, I struggle

866
00:48:05,039 --> 00:48:09,199
Speaker 3: with anxiety, Dave, and having this uncertainty is probably not

867
00:48:09,399 --> 00:48:11,879
Speaker 3: best for me. And as much as I would like

868
00:48:11,919 --> 00:48:13,959
Speaker 3: to just figure it out and take it step by step,

869
00:48:13,999 --> 00:48:15,599
Speaker 3: I think it would be better for both of us

870
00:48:15,639 --> 00:48:19,119
Speaker 3: if we had an idea that had parameters so we

871
00:48:19,719 --> 00:48:21,679
Speaker 3: have a sense so we're not spending the next five

872
00:48:21,799 --> 00:48:24,679
Speaker 3: ten years in this still with uncertainty.

873
00:48:25,639 --> 00:48:28,199
Speaker 1: So we want you to first have that conversation with

874
00:48:28,239 --> 00:48:31,039
Speaker 1: your husband, and then we want you to have one

875
00:48:31,079 --> 00:48:35,359
Speaker 1: more conversation with him, And it's really an opener to

876
00:48:35,679 --> 00:48:38,119
Speaker 1: getting the two of you to be able to start

877
00:48:38,159 --> 00:48:40,759
Speaker 1: talking on a deeper level about what you've both been

878
00:48:40,799 --> 00:48:46,399
Speaker 1: through so that it doesn't bleed into the future when

879
00:48:46,439 --> 00:48:49,479
Speaker 1: you don't deal with it. And we want you to

880
00:48:49,519 --> 00:48:54,359
Speaker 1: go back to the cat dying, and we want you

881
00:48:54,399 --> 00:48:57,599
Speaker 1: to tell Dave that, even though at the time you

882
00:48:57,759 --> 00:49:00,639
Speaker 1: had a certain reaction to it, that you've really reflected

883
00:49:00,679 --> 00:49:04,839
Speaker 1: on that and that you think it's really beautiful that

884
00:49:04,999 --> 00:49:09,119
Speaker 1: he was able to express his grief and loss over

885
00:49:09,159 --> 00:49:13,119
Speaker 1: the cat and it made you feel so much closer

886
00:49:13,119 --> 00:49:16,879
Speaker 1: to him to see him really be able to express

887
00:49:16,919 --> 00:49:21,559
Speaker 1: his grief, and that you have a suspicion that maybe

888
00:49:21,599 --> 00:49:25,519
Speaker 1: he's been holding some of his grief back around the

889
00:49:25,559 --> 00:49:30,759
Speaker 1: pregnancy losses because your grief has been so big, and

890
00:49:30,799 --> 00:49:33,679
Speaker 1: that you want to let him know that you would

891
00:49:33,759 --> 00:49:38,079
Speaker 1: like to open that door and that you are able

892
00:49:38,119 --> 00:49:42,919
Speaker 1: to handle whatever he's feeling, whatever grief he's experiencing, so

893
00:49:42,959 --> 00:49:47,839
Speaker 1: that it doesn't become a dynamic between you where you're

894
00:49:47,839 --> 00:49:49,959
Speaker 1: the one who gets to express grief and he has

895
00:49:49,999 --> 00:49:52,399
Speaker 1: to be the steady eddie. That you can be the

896
00:49:52,439 --> 00:49:56,119
Speaker 1: steady eddie at times, and he's the one who's kind

897
00:49:56,159 --> 00:49:59,119
Speaker 1: of falling apart, and you want to let him know

898
00:49:59,159 --> 00:50:01,719
Speaker 1: that you can be that person for him, and that

899
00:50:01,799 --> 00:50:05,239
Speaker 1: you realize that when you saw him grieving over the cat,

900
00:50:05,599 --> 00:50:07,999
Speaker 1: you were so moved by it. It made you feel

901
00:50:08,079 --> 00:50:12,839
Speaker 1: so much more seeing that he was experiencing something and

902
00:50:12,879 --> 00:50:15,119
Speaker 1: you could be there for him.

903
00:50:15,999 --> 00:50:20,039
Speaker 3: We have two more quick pieces of advice. One about

904
00:50:20,079 --> 00:50:23,319
Speaker 3: your daughter. We think that the conversations that you've been

905
00:50:23,359 --> 00:50:26,839
Speaker 3: having with her around the extra sibling, they've been a

906
00:50:26,839 --> 00:50:30,919
Speaker 3: little painful for you, obviously, but we think they've been

907
00:50:30,959 --> 00:50:34,719
Speaker 3: a little heavy for her because she's just saying, hey,

908
00:50:34,719 --> 00:50:38,239
Speaker 3: this would be fun another baby brother or sister, kind

909
00:50:38,239 --> 00:50:40,759
Speaker 3: of like having a puppy. It's like just fun. They

910
00:50:40,799 --> 00:50:43,039
Speaker 3: don't realize that's a lot of work, that puppy and

911
00:50:43,079 --> 00:50:46,159
Speaker 3: that little baby brother and sister. So we'd like to

912
00:50:46,199 --> 00:50:48,439
Speaker 3: suggest that when she brings it up again, and she

913
00:50:48,639 --> 00:50:51,239
Speaker 3: probably will, that you say to her, you know what,

914
00:50:52,319 --> 00:50:56,119
Speaker 3: we don't know if we're going to have another baby.

915
00:50:56,159 --> 00:50:59,479
Speaker 3: But you know what, we do know that our family

916
00:50:59,879 --> 00:51:03,639
Speaker 3: is great as it is. And you know what we

917
00:51:03,719 --> 00:51:07,119
Speaker 3: do know that we love each other very much, the

918
00:51:07,199 --> 00:51:11,799
Speaker 3: three of us already. So maybe we'll get an extra

919
00:51:11,799 --> 00:51:14,759
Speaker 3: member of the family, maybe we won't, but we can

920
00:51:14,799 --> 00:51:18,439
Speaker 3: be so happy just the three of us. That's the

921
00:51:18,439 --> 00:51:22,319
Speaker 3: most important part. And I see that you're tearing up

922
00:51:22,319 --> 00:51:25,199
Speaker 3: when I say that. Yeah, can you tell me what

923
00:51:25,199 --> 00:51:25,759
Speaker 3: you're feeling.

924
00:51:28,719 --> 00:51:33,519
Speaker 6: Yeah, because we are a beautiful family, and she's so

925
00:51:33,559 --> 00:51:37,439
Speaker 6: important to us and brings us so much joy, and

926
00:51:37,479 --> 00:51:41,279
Speaker 6: I just want her to always know that she's enough.

927
00:51:42,759 --> 00:51:46,199
Speaker 3: Great. We also think if she has friends who don't

928
00:51:46,239 --> 00:51:50,719
Speaker 3: have siblings, them's some good playdates to arrange, perhaps so

929
00:51:50,719 --> 00:51:53,599
Speaker 3: she can see that that's something that's not uncommon.

930
00:51:54,679 --> 00:51:56,559
Speaker 1: It's almost like the way that when you walk out

931
00:51:56,559 --> 00:51:59,039
Speaker 1: into the world you see pregnant women and other women

932
00:51:59,119 --> 00:52:02,199
Speaker 1: with babies. I think that the way that it's been

933
00:52:02,239 --> 00:52:05,999
Speaker 1: framed in your family, that's what she sees when she

934
00:52:06,119 --> 00:52:09,479
Speaker 1: goes out. And you said, you kept correcting yourself. You

935
00:52:09,559 --> 00:52:12,359
Speaker 1: said all of her friends have Oh well, I mean

936
00:52:12,439 --> 00:52:15,959
Speaker 1: most of her friends have siblics. So there are other

937
00:52:16,119 --> 00:52:20,839
Speaker 1: families that have one child, and it would be helpful,

938
00:52:20,879 --> 00:52:22,839
Speaker 1: I think for her to have some play dates with them.

939
00:52:22,879 --> 00:52:24,759
Speaker 1: Not that you won't comment on it. You're not going

940
00:52:24,799 --> 00:52:28,319
Speaker 1: to say, look, they only have one child. You're just

941
00:52:28,399 --> 00:52:31,479
Speaker 1: going to expose her to different kinds of families so

942
00:52:31,519 --> 00:52:34,879
Speaker 1: that she understands that their families come in all shapes

943
00:52:34,919 --> 00:52:35,479
Speaker 1: and sizes.

944
00:52:36,559 --> 00:52:39,719
Speaker 3: The last piece of advice is that we would like

945
00:52:39,799 --> 00:52:44,039
Speaker 3: you to get a little bit more informed about anxiety.

946
00:52:44,079 --> 00:52:45,679
Speaker 3: I think you know quite a bit, but I think

947
00:52:45,719 --> 00:52:48,799
Speaker 3: there's more for you to know because it's something that

948
00:52:48,839 --> 00:52:52,679
Speaker 3: you're dealing with quite significantly, and I think that you

949
00:52:52,799 --> 00:52:58,279
Speaker 3: need to read something a book such as The Anxiety

950
00:52:58,399 --> 00:53:02,039
Speaker 3: Toolkit by doctor Alice Boyce, which is a very practical

951
00:53:02,759 --> 00:53:06,159
Speaker 3: toolkit to deal with anxiety. It explains what goes on,

952
00:53:06,239 --> 00:53:09,599
Speaker 3: but it gives you some tools and strategies. Like you

953
00:53:09,679 --> 00:53:14,519
Speaker 3: to find two tools or techniques that you can tell

954
00:53:14,599 --> 00:53:17,639
Speaker 3: us about using and that you start to implement in

955
00:53:17,679 --> 00:53:20,279
Speaker 3: your life. Does that sound okay?

956
00:53:21,559 --> 00:53:21,919
Speaker 5: Yeah.

957
00:53:21,999 --> 00:53:24,559
Speaker 4: I was diagnosed with anxiety when I was in eighth grade,

958
00:53:24,599 --> 00:53:27,039
Speaker 4: so I feel like I've been learning about it forever.

959
00:53:27,199 --> 00:53:31,959
Speaker 5: But I think just as it as like I evolve,

960
00:53:32,119 --> 00:53:32,679
Speaker 5: so does it.

961
00:53:32,839 --> 00:53:37,479
Speaker 4: So I probably just need new, new ways of coping

962
00:53:37,519 --> 00:53:39,039
Speaker 4: with like the new things I'm feeling.

963
00:53:40,639 --> 00:53:44,639
Speaker 3: It was a pleasure talking to you, and you know

964
00:53:44,679 --> 00:53:47,839
Speaker 3: you've been through a lot and we both really really

965
00:53:47,919 --> 00:53:48,839
Speaker 3: push the best for you.

966
00:53:49,599 --> 00:53:52,239
Speaker 4: Thank you very much. I really appreciate your time and

967
00:53:52,479 --> 00:53:55,799
Speaker 4: it was great. It's in your faces too. I wish

968
00:53:55,839 --> 00:53:56,999
Speaker 4: I could talk to you every week.

969
00:54:04,279 --> 00:54:07,839
Speaker 3: I'm actually quite hopeful that Dane will be able to

970
00:54:07,839 --> 00:54:10,319
Speaker 3: follow through on all the time we gave her. I'm

971
00:54:10,319 --> 00:54:12,639
Speaker 3: trying to think if we've ever given somebody that many tasks,

972
00:54:12,679 --> 00:54:15,119
Speaker 3: Even though some of them were small, it was it's

973
00:54:15,199 --> 00:54:16,479
Speaker 3: quite a bit that we've given her to do.

974
00:54:16,879 --> 00:54:17,079
Speaker 5: Right.

975
00:54:17,119 --> 00:54:19,279
Speaker 1: We gave her three, but the first one had a

976
00:54:19,279 --> 00:54:21,079
Speaker 1: two parter, so right.

977
00:54:20,919 --> 00:54:23,719
Speaker 3: So that was a lot to do. But I have

978
00:54:23,799 --> 00:54:26,079
Speaker 3: a lot of faith in her. I think she's really

979
00:54:26,639 --> 00:54:30,279
Speaker 3: eager to change her situation, at least emotionally, given how

980
00:54:30,319 --> 00:54:33,039
Speaker 3: she's really been through so much already.

981
00:54:33,639 --> 00:54:36,119
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I think the important point is that we're

982
00:54:36,159 --> 00:54:38,159
Speaker 1: not doing what I think a lot of people do,

983
00:54:38,199 --> 00:54:41,119
Speaker 1: which is telling her not to feel what she's feeling.

984
00:54:41,479 --> 00:54:43,959
Speaker 1: We're saying, we want to help you cope with what you're.

985
00:54:43,759 --> 00:54:46,039
Speaker 3: Feeling, and you want to help the two of you

986
00:54:46,079 --> 00:54:48,839
Speaker 3: as a couple who've been through this together, cope with

987
00:54:48,879 --> 00:54:50,719
Speaker 3: what you're feeling, and as a family, indeed with her

988
00:54:50,799 --> 00:54:51,479
Speaker 3: daughter as well.

989
00:54:51,959 --> 00:55:00,519
Speaker 1: Absolutely, you're listening to Dear Therapists for my Heart Radio.

990
00:55:00,879 --> 00:55:02,439
Speaker 1: We'll be back after a short break.

991
00:55:13,719 --> 00:55:15,679
Speaker 3: So we heard from Diane and we had given her

992
00:55:15,759 --> 00:55:18,559
Speaker 3: a lot of homework. I'm curious to see how that went.

993
00:55:19,239 --> 00:55:22,279
Speaker 4: Hi, Laurian guy, it's Diane. I just wanted to update

994
00:55:22,319 --> 00:55:26,039
Speaker 4: you about my week. It was a busy week with

995
00:55:26,119 --> 00:55:29,959
Speaker 4: lots to do, but I, you know, told my husband

996
00:55:29,999 --> 00:55:33,879
Speaker 4: that I wanted to have these conversations about these specific things,

997
00:55:34,559 --> 00:55:37,159
Speaker 4: and we sat down and were able to just really

998
00:55:37,199 --> 00:55:41,319
Speaker 4: talk openly and honestly about how we were feeling about everything.

999
00:55:41,999 --> 00:55:47,919
Speaker 4: I apologized for really not having a conversation sooner about

1000
00:55:48,039 --> 00:55:55,359
Speaker 4: wanting to be very intentional about trying again, and you know,

1001
00:55:55,399 --> 00:55:57,839
Speaker 4: before we started doing the supplements and the acupuncture, that

1002
00:55:57,919 --> 00:56:00,199
Speaker 4: was something I had sort of just taken on by myself,

1003
00:56:00,239 --> 00:56:04,799
Speaker 4: and that was honestly obviously a conversation.

1004
00:56:04,279 --> 00:56:05,919
Speaker 5: We really needed to have together.

1005
00:56:06,879 --> 00:56:09,279
Speaker 4: And then we kind of came up with a plane

1006
00:56:09,399 --> 00:56:11,479
Speaker 4: going forward of you know, how long we were going

1007
00:56:11,559 --> 00:56:15,559
Speaker 4: to try everything and what the next steps were we

1008
00:56:16,279 --> 00:56:20,199
Speaker 4: talked about being open to adoption and you know, research

1009
00:56:20,479 --> 00:56:25,359
Speaker 4: different options and talk to different agencies and things like that.

1010
00:56:25,399 --> 00:56:26,279
Speaker 5: So that was exciting.

1011
00:56:27,759 --> 00:56:31,599
Speaker 4: I'm very hopeful going forward, and it really helped us

1012
00:56:31,719 --> 00:56:36,519
Speaker 4: establish a great path forward for communications like this.

1013
00:56:37,279 --> 00:56:37,959
Speaker 5: So I just kind of.

1014
00:56:37,959 --> 00:56:41,439
Speaker 4: Rolled the second conversation up into that first one, and

1015
00:56:41,479 --> 00:56:44,639
Speaker 4: we talked about, you know, our previous losses and everything

1016
00:56:44,719 --> 00:56:46,799
Speaker 4: like that. So it was really nice to really talk

1017
00:56:46,839 --> 00:56:49,919
Speaker 4: about that now that we're kind of more removed from it,

1018
00:56:51,039 --> 00:56:55,679
Speaker 4: and you know, talk about our feelings about that. And

1019
00:56:55,719 --> 00:57:04,279
Speaker 4: then I also talked to our daughter and and emphasized

1020
00:57:04,359 --> 00:57:07,759
Speaker 4: again that we are a complete family, just the three

1021
00:57:07,799 --> 00:57:12,759
Speaker 4: of us, and she just said, I know, but I

1022
00:57:12,799 --> 00:57:16,439
Speaker 4: really want a little brother. So I think she's not

1023
00:57:18,639 --> 00:57:21,319
Speaker 4: quite there yet either, but I'm just going to keep

1024
00:57:21,319 --> 00:57:23,199
Speaker 4: telling her that, you know, maybe one day she'll have

1025
00:57:23,239 --> 00:57:25,279
Speaker 4: a little brother or sister, and maybe she won't, but

1026
00:57:25,359 --> 00:57:28,119
Speaker 4: no matter what, we're just so grateful that.

1027
00:57:28,119 --> 00:57:28,679
Speaker 1: We have her.

1028
00:57:29,519 --> 00:57:32,719
Speaker 4: I also ordered the Anxiety Toolkit by Alice Boys that

1029
00:57:32,759 --> 00:57:39,159
Speaker 4: guy recommended, and I'm about twenty pages in even this

1030
00:57:39,279 --> 00:57:42,159
Speaker 4: soon in the book, it's already really opened my eyes

1031
00:57:42,359 --> 00:57:47,199
Speaker 4: to how much anxiety permeates my life. I'm really glad

1032
00:57:46,799 --> 00:57:51,199
Speaker 4: that you guys opened my eyes back up to making

1033
00:57:51,199 --> 00:57:54,559
Speaker 4: that front and center, because it is front and center,

1034
00:57:55,119 --> 00:57:57,039
Speaker 4: and now I'm able to kind.

1035
00:57:56,959 --> 00:57:57,559
Speaker 5: Of address that.

1036
00:57:57,799 --> 00:58:01,919
Speaker 4: So just sort of looking ahead at the chapters on

1037
00:58:01,999 --> 00:58:06,999
Speaker 4: paralyzing perfectionism and rumination, I know that just being aware

1038
00:58:07,079 --> 00:58:10,079
Speaker 4: of the fact that I'm doing it, that I'm spending

1039
00:58:10,119 --> 00:58:15,359
Speaker 4: time ruminating, and that I'm kind of getting in my

1040
00:58:15,479 --> 00:58:18,239
Speaker 4: own way, I think is going to really help me

1041
00:58:18,359 --> 00:58:23,599
Speaker 4: move forward. And I haven't tried anything specifically since I

1042
00:58:23,719 --> 00:58:26,839
Speaker 4: just kind of got started, but I'm very excited about

1043
00:58:27,759 --> 00:58:32,079
Speaker 4: really getting into it and trying these strategies. And I

1044
00:58:32,159 --> 00:58:35,719
Speaker 4: also got a few recommendations for therapists when I went

1045
00:58:35,759 --> 00:58:39,279
Speaker 4: to see my acupuncturists today. So excited to reach out

1046
00:58:39,319 --> 00:58:44,319
Speaker 4: to them and hopefully continue this weekly. So thank you

1047
00:58:44,479 --> 00:58:48,199
Speaker 4: so much. You guys made such a big difference on

1048
00:58:49,199 --> 00:58:54,639
Speaker 4: many parts of my life, and I'm very hopeful going forward.

1049
00:58:59,319 --> 00:59:02,999
Speaker 1: So sometimes when there's a big issue going on, it

1050
00:59:03,119 --> 00:59:05,599
Speaker 1: tends to mask the other things that really need to

1051
00:59:05,599 --> 00:59:09,479
Speaker 1: be addressed. And what was so great about what what

1052
00:59:09,759 --> 00:59:13,319
Speaker 1: Diane did this week was she really got in there

1053
00:59:13,479 --> 00:59:17,119
Speaker 1: and said I need to talk about the communication with

1054
00:59:17,159 --> 00:59:20,919
Speaker 1: my husband, and she hadn't really dealt with her anxiety

1055
00:59:20,999 --> 00:59:24,439
Speaker 1: that had been a lifelong issue with her. They were

1056
00:59:24,439 --> 00:59:28,079
Speaker 1: so focused on having a baby that they didn't realize

1057
00:59:28,079 --> 00:59:30,399
Speaker 1: that there were other things that also needed to be addressed.

1058
00:59:30,959 --> 00:59:33,559
Speaker 3: And what I loved was that when she told us

1059
00:59:33,599 --> 00:59:36,919
Speaker 3: about telling her daughter, hey, we're a complete family. You

1060
00:59:37,039 --> 00:59:39,359
Speaker 3: might have a little brother or sister, or you might not,

1061
00:59:40,279 --> 00:59:41,999
Speaker 3: and her daughter was saying, yeah, I know, but I

1062
00:59:42,039 --> 00:59:44,959
Speaker 3: really want a little brother. That was the kind of

1063
00:59:44,999 --> 00:59:49,119
Speaker 3: thing that would have made her very upset before. And

1064
00:59:49,239 --> 00:59:53,479
Speaker 3: she said it with a laugh, a smile in her voice, like, oh,

1065
00:59:53,679 --> 00:59:56,439
Speaker 3: you know, five year olds they just wanted the little sibling.

1066
00:59:56,479 --> 01:00:00,079
Speaker 3: There was already some emotional distance that she had from

1067
01:00:00,119 --> 01:00:04,239
Speaker 3: that issue. And I think that when you tackle things

1068
01:00:04,359 --> 01:00:06,799
Speaker 3: and you really get into the feelings and you really

1069
01:00:06,879 --> 01:00:11,919
Speaker 3: talk about them in a complete way, it actually eases

1070
01:00:12,999 --> 01:00:16,599
Speaker 3: the feelings you have about things, rather than exacerbates them.

1071
01:00:16,879 --> 01:00:18,839
Speaker 3: And I'm so glad that that's happened here.

1072
01:00:19,919 --> 01:00:22,719
Speaker 1: It really does, And I'm so glad that she and

1073
01:00:22,799 --> 01:00:27,039
Speaker 1: her husband have begun to talk about the loss and

1074
01:00:27,119 --> 01:00:29,519
Speaker 1: the roller coaster that they've been on and the grief

1075
01:00:29,599 --> 01:00:33,319
Speaker 1: and how it affects them individually. I don't think that

1076
01:00:33,359 --> 01:00:36,119
Speaker 1: they've been able to really share their feelings with each other,

1077
01:00:36,279 --> 01:00:38,399
Speaker 1: and they've kind of tiptoed around that, And so I

1078
01:00:38,399 --> 01:00:39,999
Speaker 1: think this is going to be really helpful as they

1079
01:00:40,039 --> 01:00:43,559
Speaker 1: continue on whatever path, and that they have a path

1080
01:00:43,639 --> 01:00:46,359
Speaker 1: now that they're starting to say, wait, what is the

1081
01:00:46,399 --> 01:00:48,959
Speaker 1: plan here? So that we aren't in limbo forever?

1082
01:00:49,399 --> 01:00:52,439
Speaker 3: And what makes that plan work is that they're making

1083
01:00:52,479 --> 01:00:52,919
Speaker 3: it together.

1084
01:00:57,519 --> 01:01:00,559
Speaker 1: Next week we'll get updates from last season sessions to

1085
01:01:00,599 --> 01:01:03,319
Speaker 1: find out how our advice worked out. A year later.

1086
01:01:03,759 --> 01:01:06,119
Speaker 8: It made me realize how hard I am on myself,

1087
01:01:06,439 --> 01:01:09,919
Speaker 8: and I remember Laurie and guys saying something about feeling

1088
01:01:09,999 --> 01:01:12,839
Speaker 8: like I was inherently lovable as I am, and I'm

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Speaker 8: slowly beginning to realize that I don't need.

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Speaker 1: To perform to be loved. Hey, fellow travelers, if you're

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Speaker 1: enjoying our podcast each week, don't forget to subscribe for

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Speaker 1: free so that you don't miss any episodes, and please

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Speaker 1: help support Dear Therapists by telling your friends about it

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Speaker 1: and leaving a review on Apple Podcasts. Your reviews really

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Speaker 1: help people to find the show. You can also find

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Speaker 1: us both online. I'm at Lorigotlieb dot com and you

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Speaker 1: can follow me on Twitter at lorigottlib one or on

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Speaker 1: Instagram at Lorigottlieb Underscore Author, and.

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Speaker 3: I'm at guywinch dot com and on Twitter and Instagram

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Speaker 3: at Guywitch. If you have a dilemma you'd like to

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Speaker 3: discuss with us, we'll go smooth. Email us at Lorianguy

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Speaker 3: at iHeartMedia dot com.

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Speaker 1: Our executive producer is Noel Brown. We're produced and edited

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01:02:00,119 --> 01:02:04,279
Speaker 1: by Mike Johns, Josh Fisher, and Chris Childs. Our interns

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Speaker 1: are Dorit Corwin and Silver Liften. Special thanks to Alison

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Speaker 1: Wright and to our podcast Fairy Godmother Katie Couric. We

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Speaker 1: can't wait to see you at next week's session.

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Speaker 3: Giotherapist is a production of iHeartRadio.