1
00:00:08,960 --> 00:00:13,320
Speaker 1: This is me Eat podcast coming at you shirtless, severely

2
00:00:13,440 --> 00:00:18,319
Speaker 1: bug bitten in my case, underwear lessening Hunt podcast. You

3
00:00:18,360 --> 00:00:22,560
Speaker 1: can't predict anything presented by on X. Hunt creators are

4
00:00:22,600 --> 00:00:26,160
Speaker 1: the most comprehensive digital mapping system for hunters. Download the

5
00:00:26,239 --> 00:00:29,440
Speaker 1: Hunt app from the iTunes or Google play store. Nor

6
00:00:29,440 --> 00:00:36,000
Speaker 1: where you stand with on X? All right? Can I

7
00:00:36,000 --> 00:00:38,760
Speaker 1: call you Professor dug Emlin. That's right, it works, Okay,

8
00:00:38,800 --> 00:00:41,199
Speaker 1: tell people what you do. I'm a biologist. I'm an

9
00:00:41,200 --> 00:00:45,760
Speaker 1: evolutionary biologist, and I study animal weapons at University of Montana.

10
00:00:46,479 --> 00:00:50,400
Speaker 1: Out there I got to take care of. Now. I'm

11
00:00:50,440 --> 00:00:53,280
Speaker 1: a biologist at the University of Montana, and uh, most

12
00:00:53,320 --> 00:00:55,760
Speaker 1: of my time I work on rhinoceros beetles with horns,

13
00:00:55,960 --> 00:00:59,360
Speaker 1: but more generally, I'm interested in how and why animal

14
00:00:59,400 --> 00:01:06,600
Speaker 1: weapons get really big, including dear teeth, saber tooths. Yeah,

15
00:01:06,720 --> 00:01:09,160
Speaker 1: including all of those things. We can talk about any

16
00:01:09,160 --> 00:01:10,720
Speaker 1: of them that you want to. One of the things

17
00:01:10,760 --> 00:01:12,920
Speaker 1: I stumbled on a few years ago while trying to

18
00:01:12,920 --> 00:01:15,560
Speaker 1: write a book was realizing that all these things that

19
00:01:15,600 --> 00:01:18,880
Speaker 1: we learned about insects and about beetles applied to things

20
00:01:18,920 --> 00:01:22,000
Speaker 1: like deer. And then the more I looked and the

21
00:01:22,040 --> 00:01:24,400
Speaker 1: more I dug into the sort of nitty gritty of

22
00:01:24,400 --> 00:01:27,520
Speaker 1: the biology, the more convinced I became that the same logic,

23
00:01:27,600 --> 00:01:30,039
Speaker 1: the same rules apply to all these cases of really

24
00:01:30,040 --> 00:01:36,720
Speaker 1: extreme weapons, including, to my astonishment, military technologies. Yeah, sort

25
00:01:36,760 --> 00:01:39,360
Speaker 1: of day to day research is on is on rhinoceros beetles.

26
00:01:39,440 --> 00:01:42,440
Speaker 1: The fact is, the concepts I study, the things I

27
00:01:42,480 --> 00:01:45,640
Speaker 1: think about applied just as much to military technologies as

28
00:01:45,640 --> 00:01:48,280
Speaker 1: they do to animal weapons. Okay, a couple quick things.

29
00:01:48,480 --> 00:01:51,800
Speaker 1: You do you know that you know? You know my

30
00:01:51,840 --> 00:01:54,640
Speaker 1: sister in law, I just figured this out two days ago.

31
00:01:55,880 --> 00:02:02,640
Speaker 1: Who is now You're one of her stituents. Remember when

32
00:02:02,920 --> 00:02:05,760
Speaker 1: Clinton was being impeached and and there was this debate

33
00:02:05,800 --> 00:02:10,000
Speaker 1: about whether or not character matters. Yeah, she has character.

34
00:02:11,320 --> 00:02:13,560
Speaker 1: I think I could have told you that Rush Limbaugh

35
00:02:13,600 --> 00:02:16,720
Speaker 1: said character is above all else at the time he

36
00:02:16,760 --> 00:02:20,560
Speaker 1: felt that and um, yeah, she fits that point too.

37
00:02:20,919 --> 00:02:23,960
Speaker 1: You're comparing it to Russia. No, No, I'm saying that.

38
00:02:26,040 --> 00:02:31,160
Speaker 1: I'm saying that there was a debate, like, Okay, there

39
00:02:31,200 --> 00:02:34,120
Speaker 1: was a debate at the time in the nineties. There

40
00:02:34,200 --> 00:02:36,720
Speaker 1: was like there was this debate where people were saying,

41
00:02:37,400 --> 00:02:41,160
Speaker 1: um that, you know, a president does what he does

42
00:02:41,200 --> 00:02:45,280
Speaker 1: and character doesn't matter. Right, It's like it's it's it's

43
00:02:45,360 --> 00:02:46,919
Speaker 1: nice that they have good character, but it's not good

44
00:02:46,960 --> 00:02:49,480
Speaker 1: character is not essential for the job. And so at

45
00:02:49,480 --> 00:02:53,760
Speaker 1: the time, people that were voicing the opposite opinion were

46
00:02:54,200 --> 00:02:57,240
Speaker 1: understandably from the opposite side of the aisle, and so

47
00:02:57,280 --> 00:02:59,280
Speaker 1: they were like, oh my god, does character ever matter?

48
00:02:59,800 --> 00:03:02,280
Speaker 1: Like that's character out limball, that characters above ball else.

49
00:03:02,760 --> 00:03:06,400
Speaker 1: And then you know later in subsequent administrations, the people

50
00:03:06,400 --> 00:03:10,280
Speaker 1: who voiced the the importance of character have dramatically shifted.

51
00:03:10,960 --> 00:03:16,920
Speaker 1: But I want to get another point now, um uh,

52
00:03:16,960 --> 00:03:20,360
Speaker 1: I think I told you this before. Dog the best

53
00:03:21,320 --> 00:03:26,600
Speaker 1: one of the best lines in your book, isn't your Lineinstein? Quote? Yeah?

54
00:03:26,960 --> 00:03:28,119
Speaker 1: What do you call it? When you put a quote

55
00:03:28,120 --> 00:03:32,639
Speaker 1: it to be of a book? What doesn't ea mean

56
00:03:32,720 --> 00:03:36,040
Speaker 1: later we'll look it up really quick. I should know

57
00:03:37,000 --> 00:03:40,160
Speaker 1: when you die and they write something about you. Yeah,

58
00:03:40,320 --> 00:03:43,920
Speaker 1: that's not that. It's not that anyway, there's a quote

59
00:03:44,320 --> 00:03:46,360
Speaker 1: I don't have you have hit him with the quote, yeah,

60
00:03:46,560 --> 00:03:48,120
Speaker 1: but I can't. I don't have a memories. It's like

61
00:03:48,200 --> 00:03:52,080
Speaker 1: I've I've opened books with quotes. Oh you got it right, Yeah,

62
00:03:52,760 --> 00:03:55,800
Speaker 1: speak of for yourself. Sam epigraph a sam longer coming

63
00:03:55,800 --> 00:03:58,640
Speaker 1: to epigraph. So epigraph is before a book, and epitaph

64
00:03:58,760 --> 00:04:01,240
Speaker 1: is on your teamstone after it's after you die. So

65
00:04:01,400 --> 00:04:06,680
Speaker 1: epigraph is before your book. And so I know not

66
00:04:06,920 --> 00:04:11,040
Speaker 1: what I it's not what he said. Let me try again.

67
00:04:12,240 --> 00:04:16,920
Speaker 1: I know not with what weapons. World War three will

68
00:04:16,960 --> 00:04:20,200
Speaker 1: be fought, but World War four will be fought with

69
00:04:20,320 --> 00:04:25,440
Speaker 1: sticks and stones. It is good and and I guess

70
00:04:25,440 --> 00:04:26,960
Speaker 1: I can speak to it for a minute about why

71
00:04:26,960 --> 00:04:28,560
Speaker 1: I chose to put it at the front of the book.

72
00:04:28,960 --> 00:04:32,120
Speaker 1: It felt president somehow for a book on extreme weapons.

73
00:04:33,440 --> 00:04:35,200
Speaker 1: And one of the things I hinted at is that

74
00:04:35,279 --> 00:04:37,279
Speaker 1: I learned along the way while writing this book that

75
00:04:37,360 --> 00:04:39,440
Speaker 1: all these things that we've stumbled on as a biologist

76
00:04:39,480 --> 00:04:43,159
Speaker 1: applied to military technologies. And part of the exercise of

77
00:04:43,200 --> 00:04:46,279
Speaker 1: writing this book was really digging into the military literature

78
00:04:46,279 --> 00:04:49,440
Speaker 1: and reading about historical arms races and the deep past,

79
00:04:49,560 --> 00:04:52,240
Speaker 1: and and looking at these parallels and really trying to

80
00:04:52,320 --> 00:04:55,120
Speaker 1: unpack the parallels between the animal and the military weapons.

81
00:04:55,160 --> 00:04:57,360
Speaker 1: And that meant to do that right, that meant coming

82
00:04:57,400 --> 00:04:59,960
Speaker 1: full forward and taking a really hard look at modern

83
00:05:00,160 --> 00:05:03,720
Speaker 1: times like the Cold War and post Cold War situations

84
00:05:03,760 --> 00:05:06,760
Speaker 1: and Einstein wrote that during the Cold War, very much

85
00:05:06,760 --> 00:05:11,839
Speaker 1: in that mindset and speaking to the I mean, I

86
00:05:11,839 --> 00:05:16,720
Speaker 1: guess the spectacular devastating capabilities of modern weapons of mass destruction,

87
00:05:17,000 --> 00:05:18,919
Speaker 1: And I think his point is it doesn't really matter

88
00:05:19,000 --> 00:05:21,200
Speaker 1: what the next world is, you know what the Third

89
00:05:21,200 --> 00:05:23,799
Speaker 1: World War is going to be fought with, because pretty

90
00:05:23,880 --> 00:05:26,240
Speaker 1: much anything they use these days is going to be

91
00:05:26,320 --> 00:05:30,040
Speaker 1: so destructive that everything will be rubble, and the people

92
00:05:30,080 --> 00:05:32,760
Speaker 1: that managed to stagger past that are going to be

93
00:05:32,839 --> 00:05:35,000
Speaker 1: hitting each other on the head with sticks and stones

94
00:05:35,040 --> 00:05:37,359
Speaker 1: because it's the only thing that will be left. There's

95
00:05:37,400 --> 00:05:40,520
Speaker 1: a kind of sobering, but it is a reflection of

96
00:05:40,560 --> 00:05:43,599
Speaker 1: the reality of where modern weapons of mass destruction are.

97
00:05:43,960 --> 00:05:47,479
Speaker 1: There's a thirty or forty thousand one of those thirty

98
00:05:47,560 --> 00:05:51,320
Speaker 1: or forty thousand year old skull from Europe that they had.

99
00:05:52,320 --> 00:05:55,000
Speaker 1: It was a pretty well preserved like in tax gold

100
00:05:55,040 --> 00:06:02,440
Speaker 1: they had, and they had a uh peculiar concave cracking

101
00:06:02,760 --> 00:06:06,200
Speaker 1: on it. It suggested the person they pondered over it

102
00:06:06,240 --> 00:06:08,480
Speaker 1: like whether it was post mortem or not, like they

103
00:06:08,480 --> 00:06:12,479
Speaker 1: thought maybe just soil compacion or something had happened. Um,

104
00:06:12,600 --> 00:06:14,600
Speaker 1: and then they want up they worked up some kind

105
00:06:14,600 --> 00:06:19,120
Speaker 1: of technology where they can make these, uh like something

106
00:06:19,160 --> 00:06:22,839
Speaker 1: that's a fact simile of human bone and fill it

107
00:06:22,920 --> 00:06:25,040
Speaker 1: with what you call that stuff you shoot guns at,

108
00:06:25,640 --> 00:06:28,839
Speaker 1: ballistic gel fill it with a ballistic gels. See what

109
00:06:28,960 --> 00:06:32,120
Speaker 1: kind of and then yeah, and then give it various

110
00:06:32,160 --> 00:06:36,480
Speaker 1: injuries and um, they determined it thirty thousand years ago

111
00:06:36,760 --> 00:06:39,159
Speaker 1: he had likely been killed by someone who is left

112
00:06:39,200 --> 00:06:46,000
Speaker 1: handed and facing him. That's okay, uh, okay, that's my

113
00:06:46,000 --> 00:06:48,520
Speaker 1: favorite line from the book. And not just because I'm

114
00:06:48,560 --> 00:06:50,160
Speaker 1: not pointing out that you didn't write it, but it's

115
00:06:50,160 --> 00:06:55,120
Speaker 1: a great it's a perfect really it's a really good

116
00:06:55,279 --> 00:06:58,479
Speaker 1: h you know, deal best line in the book. My

117
00:06:58,520 --> 00:07:00,719
Speaker 1: favorite new word that I learned in your book, which

118
00:07:00,760 --> 00:07:03,279
Speaker 1: is called animal weapons, like you get, the title gets

119
00:07:03,360 --> 00:07:05,960
Speaker 1: right to it. The title is that leave you guessing?

120
00:07:06,440 --> 00:07:08,799
Speaker 1: I don't know. I mean it does like blood Meridian

121
00:07:10,240 --> 00:07:14,640
Speaker 1: at am. But the title doesn't tell you what the

122
00:07:14,680 --> 00:07:18,440
Speaker 1: book is about. Okay, But in all fairness, animal weapons

123
00:07:18,640 --> 00:07:21,600
Speaker 1: doesn't necessarily speak to the fact that half the book

124
00:07:21,680 --> 00:07:27,360
Speaker 1: is about the miltee. So we struggled with titles. We

125
00:07:27,400 --> 00:07:30,720
Speaker 1: are that we are animals, that is, but that might

126
00:07:30,720 --> 00:07:32,680
Speaker 1: not have be the how the average person on the

127
00:07:33,320 --> 00:07:36,280
Speaker 1: you know in the bookstore looking at the shelves would

128
00:07:36,320 --> 00:07:38,920
Speaker 1: think about it. So okay, one more quick comment and

129
00:07:39,000 --> 00:07:42,760
Speaker 1: I'm gonna have you digging on something. Um My favorite

130
00:07:42,800 --> 00:07:48,960
Speaker 1: word that learned in this book is supernate. That was

131
00:07:48,960 --> 00:07:50,800
Speaker 1: a new one for me too. You didn't know that word. No,

132
00:07:50,920 --> 00:07:54,280
Speaker 1: I do now explain to folks. It is who can

133
00:07:54,280 --> 00:07:58,360
Speaker 1: supernate and why it matters. Cats can supernate their four limbs,

134
00:07:58,400 --> 00:08:01,280
Speaker 1: and it refers to the way that they can articulate

135
00:08:01,320 --> 00:08:03,720
Speaker 1: and twist the way that we can with our risk too.

136
00:08:03,720 --> 00:08:07,840
Speaker 1: But most other carnivores like dogs or wolves cannot. They

137
00:08:07,880 --> 00:08:11,080
Speaker 1: can articulate and twist their fore limbs, and it is

138
00:08:11,160 --> 00:08:13,000
Speaker 1: relevant and I talked about it in the book in

139
00:08:13,040 --> 00:08:17,120
Speaker 1: the context of the evolution of the extreme canines and

140
00:08:17,200 --> 00:08:20,560
Speaker 1: things like sabretooth cats and and and The idea there

141
00:08:20,640 --> 00:08:24,080
Speaker 1: is that those weapons are so big. I mean, they're

142
00:08:24,080 --> 00:08:27,680
Speaker 1: phenomenal for piercing and for killing really big prey, but

143
00:08:27,760 --> 00:08:31,400
Speaker 1: they're also really vulnerable to breakage and snapping, and so

144
00:08:31,480 --> 00:08:33,600
Speaker 1: the cats need to be able to plunge the teeth

145
00:08:33,640 --> 00:08:35,400
Speaker 1: in and pull them right back out again. You can't

146
00:08:35,440 --> 00:08:39,200
Speaker 1: just lock them in and hang or you'll well maybe

147
00:08:39,200 --> 00:08:40,680
Speaker 1: they could. But the only way they could do that

148
00:08:40,760 --> 00:08:42,840
Speaker 1: is if they can hold on to the animal and

149
00:08:42,880 --> 00:08:46,200
Speaker 1: position themselves. You know, if otherwise you sink your teeth

150
00:08:46,200 --> 00:08:48,040
Speaker 1: in the animal runs away, it snaps your teeth. Thought

151
00:08:49,040 --> 00:08:52,200
Speaker 1: to hold onto that animal would be spidd four limbs

152
00:08:52,200 --> 00:08:54,040
Speaker 1: while it's trying to run like hell away from you.

153
00:08:54,600 --> 00:08:56,880
Speaker 1: Is part of how we think, or the paliontal just

154
00:08:56,960 --> 00:08:59,680
Speaker 1: think these cats are able to not snap their teeth,

155
00:08:59,720 --> 00:09:01,080
Speaker 1: but they it. You know, you look at the libery

156
00:09:01,080 --> 00:09:04,240
Speaker 1: a tart pit fossils, they had snap teeth. My first

157
00:09:04,280 --> 00:09:06,600
Speaker 1: date with my wife, did you that's a good first date.

158
00:09:07,840 --> 00:09:09,560
Speaker 1: But so they snapped their teeth all the time. I

159
00:09:09,559 --> 00:09:11,600
Speaker 1: mean that was definitely the big price tag of having

160
00:09:11,600 --> 00:09:14,320
Speaker 1: teeth like that, well one of the price tags, because

161
00:09:14,320 --> 00:09:18,520
Speaker 1: you think about like you look at a wolf, dragon elpdown.

162
00:09:19,200 --> 00:09:21,640
Speaker 1: He doesn't. He can't supernate, so he has to do

163
00:09:21,800 --> 00:09:25,080
Speaker 1: all with his teeth, just hanging on for dear life.

164
00:09:25,280 --> 00:09:27,440
Speaker 1: But they also do it as a group. So wolves

165
00:09:27,440 --> 00:09:29,880
Speaker 1: tend to hunt as a pack, and they can bring

166
00:09:29,920 --> 00:09:34,000
Speaker 1: down prey by pulling on them from different sides. I

167
00:09:34,040 --> 00:09:36,360
Speaker 1: think there's a debate actually about saber tooths for a

168
00:09:36,360 --> 00:09:39,160
Speaker 1: long time it was assumed that they were solitary hunters,

169
00:09:39,160 --> 00:09:40,960
Speaker 1: and now there's people arguing that they might have been

170
00:09:41,000 --> 00:09:45,760
Speaker 1: social to you. But I don't know. Not my forte

171
00:09:45,760 --> 00:09:47,600
Speaker 1: I work on beetles. But no, there's been a bunch

172
00:09:47,600 --> 00:09:49,440
Speaker 1: of stuff that's come out on saber tooths. I mean,

173
00:09:49,800 --> 00:09:52,360
Speaker 1: they were a real catalyst for me. We can get

174
00:09:52,400 --> 00:09:54,080
Speaker 1: we can get into this and whatever. What do you want?

175
00:09:54,120 --> 00:09:57,440
Speaker 1: But most of that I okay, Then I we'll come

176
00:09:57,440 --> 00:10:00,320
Speaker 1: back to that. I feel like I want to start

177
00:10:00,360 --> 00:10:04,880
Speaker 1: out by talking if you're comfortable with this about the

178
00:10:04,880 --> 00:10:09,080
Speaker 1: white and brown mice on the white sand. Okay, because

179
00:10:09,320 --> 00:10:11,000
Speaker 1: unless you think that's a bad am I messing my

180
00:10:11,120 --> 00:10:12,840
Speaker 1: job up or doing my job, we can do this

181
00:10:12,920 --> 00:10:15,880
Speaker 1: or whatever. Do you want? The logic that I got

182
00:10:15,880 --> 00:10:18,000
Speaker 1: one that I might be able to wedge in ahead

183
00:10:18,000 --> 00:10:21,160
Speaker 1: of that kind of try go for it. What I

184
00:10:21,200 --> 00:10:23,120
Speaker 1: just want to know what? Maybe what like the what

185
00:10:23,280 --> 00:10:26,280
Speaker 1: your definition of a weapon is? Damnit? Yanni, that's the

186
00:10:26,320 --> 00:10:33,880
Speaker 1: first question and I skipped it. Look Sam, that's number one.

187
00:10:34,000 --> 00:10:35,959
Speaker 1: Back me up. So this is when I struggled with

188
00:10:36,000 --> 00:10:37,600
Speaker 1: when I was trying to research the book too. There

189
00:10:37,640 --> 00:10:42,240
Speaker 1: isn't a simple definition. I mean if you think about it, teeth, claws,

190
00:10:42,320 --> 00:10:45,640
Speaker 1: anything that you stab or claw slash with, clearly that's

191
00:10:45,640 --> 00:10:47,840
Speaker 1: a weapon. You think of tusks and antlers that you

192
00:10:47,960 --> 00:10:52,120
Speaker 1: lock and spar with, those are weapons. But chemical things

193
00:10:52,120 --> 00:10:55,480
Speaker 1: that animals produce as a toxin to spray or inject,

194
00:10:55,600 --> 00:10:58,839
Speaker 1: those are weapons of a sort. And if you start

195
00:10:58,840 --> 00:11:01,080
Speaker 1: looking at military arsons and you start looking at what

196
00:11:01,160 --> 00:11:03,200
Speaker 1: soldiers carry in the battle, they carry a lot more

197
00:11:03,320 --> 00:11:06,720
Speaker 1: than than the firearms. They've got communication equipment. They've got

198
00:11:06,760 --> 00:11:09,440
Speaker 1: camo that helps them blend with their backgrounds, they've got

199
00:11:09,559 --> 00:11:13,439
Speaker 1: kevlar that protects them from certain vantages. All of that

200
00:11:13,480 --> 00:11:16,040
Speaker 1: stuff could be considered part of the arsenal of an

201
00:11:16,040 --> 00:11:19,000
Speaker 1: individual soldier, and so you can start to subdivide it

202
00:11:19,040 --> 00:11:22,240
Speaker 1: into things that mostly function for protection and defense, things

203
00:11:22,240 --> 00:11:25,280
Speaker 1: that function for attack and offense. I don't actually want

204
00:11:25,280 --> 00:11:27,440
Speaker 1: to go down that path of what is a weapon,

205
00:11:27,440 --> 00:11:29,520
Speaker 1: because there's a million things that could fit under that.

206
00:11:29,640 --> 00:11:32,959
Speaker 1: What I will say is I focus on a particular

207
00:11:33,040 --> 00:11:35,679
Speaker 1: subset of animal weapons, and those are the things that

208
00:11:35,760 --> 00:11:38,600
Speaker 1: get really big and so sort of from my perspective

209
00:11:38,640 --> 00:11:42,079
Speaker 1: as an evolutionary biologist, I'm constantly stumped by the fact

210
00:11:42,080 --> 00:11:44,280
Speaker 1: that there are species out there with these things sticking

211
00:11:44,320 --> 00:11:47,240
Speaker 1: off of them that are ridiculous. I mean, any hunter

212
00:11:47,320 --> 00:11:49,520
Speaker 1: loves a good rack of antlers, and we love looking

213
00:11:49,520 --> 00:11:52,760
Speaker 1: at caribou or elk, but you step back a look

214
00:11:52,800 --> 00:11:54,960
Speaker 1: at them like you're an alien from another planet looking

215
00:11:55,000 --> 00:11:57,079
Speaker 1: at these things for the first time. It's absurd. It's

216
00:11:57,120 --> 00:12:00,560
Speaker 1: absolutely insane that these animals would have that much stuff

217
00:12:00,679 --> 00:12:03,480
Speaker 1: sticking off their heads. And as a biologist, I want

218
00:12:03,480 --> 00:12:05,280
Speaker 1: to make sense of that. We know it's awkward, we

219
00:12:05,320 --> 00:12:09,560
Speaker 1: know it's expensive. Under what kinds of circumstances will the

220
00:12:09,600 --> 00:12:13,040
Speaker 1: benefits of a weapon like that be so profound that

221
00:12:13,160 --> 00:12:16,679
Speaker 1: animals with these huge weapons do better than other individuals

222
00:12:16,679 --> 00:12:20,280
Speaker 1: out there with weapons that that are smaller or less extreme.

223
00:12:20,320 --> 00:12:23,319
Speaker 1: And so that's my sort of thing as a biologist.

224
00:12:23,520 --> 00:12:26,920
Speaker 1: Under what kinds of social or physical environments or circumstances

225
00:12:27,400 --> 00:12:29,760
Speaker 1: will sort of the stars aligned so that the really

226
00:12:29,800 --> 00:12:32,360
Speaker 1: big weapons win. And so so it's it comes back.

227
00:12:32,600 --> 00:12:34,280
Speaker 1: I'm not giving you an easy answer to what is

228
00:12:34,280 --> 00:12:36,360
Speaker 1: a weapon. There's a lot of things that qualify as

229
00:12:36,400 --> 00:12:38,760
Speaker 1: a weapon, but I'm kind of hoping today we're going

230
00:12:38,840 --> 00:12:41,760
Speaker 1: to focus on things that are unquestionably weapons and they're

231
00:12:41,760 --> 00:12:43,840
Speaker 1: the big stuff, the tusks and the horns and the

232
00:12:43,880 --> 00:12:48,440
Speaker 1: antlers and the you know, the sabretooth cat keynines. Okay,

233
00:12:48,480 --> 00:12:50,120
Speaker 1: so here's here's what I want you to talk about.

234
00:12:51,480 --> 00:12:52,800
Speaker 1: Here's what I wanted to get into. The white and

235
00:12:52,800 --> 00:12:57,280
Speaker 1: brown mice. Okay, because you have a I'm gonna switch up.

236
00:12:58,120 --> 00:13:01,079
Speaker 1: You have a page on page six. Nice to know

237
00:13:01,160 --> 00:13:04,320
Speaker 1: I made its pitch six. Yeah, body, I made it

238
00:13:04,320 --> 00:13:08,640
Speaker 1: always through this book, man. So on page six you

239
00:13:08,679 --> 00:13:12,559
Speaker 1: have a quote where you say, whenever individuals differ and

240
00:13:12,600 --> 00:13:18,600
Speaker 1: how successful they are at propagating their kind, evolution occurs. So,

241
00:13:18,800 --> 00:13:20,679
Speaker 1: keeping that in mind and knowing this is something that

242
00:13:20,720 --> 00:13:22,480
Speaker 1: you chose to bring up early on in your book,

243
00:13:22,840 --> 00:13:25,280
Speaker 1: tell the story about the white mice and the brown

244
00:13:25,360 --> 00:13:27,840
Speaker 1: mice and the white sand. And that's the reason I

245
00:13:27,920 --> 00:13:30,480
Speaker 1: told that story was to try to provide sort of

246
00:13:30,480 --> 00:13:34,520
Speaker 1: a really simple, intuitive, real world example to hang that

247
00:13:34,640 --> 00:13:38,560
Speaker 1: logic on. So that essence of evolutionary biology people people

248
00:13:38,600 --> 00:13:41,240
Speaker 1: feel threatened by it, people misunderstand that, people run with

249
00:13:41,240 --> 00:13:43,520
Speaker 1: it in all kinds of crazy directions, But it is basic.

250
00:13:43,600 --> 00:13:46,480
Speaker 1: It really is a simple process. It it rests on

251
00:13:46,520 --> 00:13:49,200
Speaker 1: the fact that if you look at any population of

252
00:13:49,240 --> 00:13:52,360
Speaker 1: anything out there, you pick your favorite species. But in

253
00:13:52,480 --> 00:13:55,320
Speaker 1: this case, we'll start with old field mice. And you

254
00:13:55,360 --> 00:13:57,760
Speaker 1: go out and you start looking at the individuals. You

255
00:13:57,800 --> 00:13:59,680
Speaker 1: look at the mice. You're not just saying, hey, there's

256
00:13:59,679 --> 00:14:02,040
Speaker 1: six or needy two of them, or you know, there's

257
00:14:02,040 --> 00:14:04,160
Speaker 1: more this year than last year. You're actually looking at

258
00:14:04,160 --> 00:14:06,560
Speaker 1: the mice. What you're gonna find is they're not the same.

259
00:14:06,840 --> 00:14:08,640
Speaker 1: Some of them are heavier, some of them are lighter,

260
00:14:08,679 --> 00:14:11,000
Speaker 1: some of them are darker. Some of them have I

261
00:14:11,080 --> 00:14:13,840
Speaker 1: don't know, longer legs, bigger teeth. If you go out

262
00:14:13,840 --> 00:14:16,440
Speaker 1: there as a biologist and you start measuring things, you're

263
00:14:16,440 --> 00:14:18,680
Speaker 1: gonna find that there's variation that some of the mice

264
00:14:18,720 --> 00:14:21,200
Speaker 1: are faster, some of them age more quickly, some of

265
00:14:21,240 --> 00:14:23,600
Speaker 1: them digest things better, some of them smell better. There's

266
00:14:23,640 --> 00:14:26,320
Speaker 1: tons of things about the mice that are different from

267
00:14:26,400 --> 00:14:29,280
Speaker 1: each other. And and evolution is about turnover. It's how

268
00:14:30,160 --> 00:14:32,880
Speaker 1: some types do about. It's winners and losers. Some types

269
00:14:32,920 --> 00:14:34,760
Speaker 1: do better than others, and the ones that do better

270
00:14:35,440 --> 00:14:37,480
Speaker 1: end up living when others die, and they end up

271
00:14:37,480 --> 00:14:40,400
Speaker 1: reproducing when others don't. And those are the ones that

272
00:14:40,480 --> 00:14:44,080
Speaker 1: end up producing offspring that carry with them these same characteristics.

273
00:14:44,080 --> 00:14:47,000
Speaker 1: And if you look at that population over time, from

274
00:14:47,000 --> 00:14:49,400
Speaker 1: one generation to the next generation to the next generation,

275
00:14:49,480 --> 00:14:53,880
Speaker 1: you follow that, you'll find that the average characteristics shift.

276
00:14:54,120 --> 00:14:57,760
Speaker 1: They get darker, they get faster, they get better. It's

277
00:14:57,800 --> 00:15:01,000
Speaker 1: smelling a certain thing. Populations are all was changing as

278
00:15:01,040 --> 00:15:03,800
Speaker 1: they sort of adapt to the environments around them. That's evolution.

279
00:15:03,960 --> 00:15:06,880
Speaker 1: That's the process that I'm looking at. So that you learn.

280
00:15:07,160 --> 00:15:09,480
Speaker 1: Mice is a really clear example. I can tell the

281
00:15:09,480 --> 00:15:12,800
Speaker 1: story if you want. I gotta like, I wanna a

282
00:15:12,800 --> 00:15:17,600
Speaker 1: couple of things that that brings up as a soth.

283
00:15:17,840 --> 00:15:20,920
Speaker 1: So often in biology you talk to people who are

284
00:15:20,960 --> 00:15:24,840
Speaker 1: looking at population like the general sense, and you're talking

285
00:15:24,880 --> 00:15:27,160
Speaker 1: about looking at the individual differences. And I think a

286
00:15:27,200 --> 00:15:28,760
Speaker 1: good way for people to understand that in the way

287
00:15:28,800 --> 00:15:30,320
Speaker 1: that struck and I was reading your book, is it

288
00:15:31,160 --> 00:15:35,160
Speaker 1: when we when we humans look at other humans, we

289
00:15:35,240 --> 00:15:38,160
Speaker 1: completely gloss over. We're not like, oh, they all look

290
00:15:38,240 --> 00:15:40,640
Speaker 1: the same. You're right, we are really good. You can

291
00:15:40,720 --> 00:15:45,640
Speaker 1: get the differences. Well, you see, I saw a man.

292
00:15:45,680 --> 00:15:48,360
Speaker 1: I'm like, that man has an extraordinarily long neck. It

293
00:15:48,400 --> 00:15:51,240
Speaker 1: wasn't thirty minutes ago. I thought that because you just

294
00:15:51,280 --> 00:15:52,760
Speaker 1: like you have a trained eye, so you're just like

295
00:15:52,880 --> 00:15:54,600
Speaker 1: the same way you can go you can recognize a

296
00:15:54,640 --> 00:15:56,880
Speaker 1: person and pick them out of hundreds of people. And

297
00:15:56,920 --> 00:15:59,920
Speaker 1: so to talk about how mice we can't see it

298
00:16:00,120 --> 00:16:02,240
Speaker 1: is all we see is it's MOUs nous. That's a

299
00:16:02,280 --> 00:16:04,880
Speaker 1: great analogy though, because people ought to recognize that we're

300
00:16:04,880 --> 00:16:08,280
Speaker 1: really good if seeing those differences in ourselves. But what

301
00:16:08,400 --> 00:16:10,800
Speaker 1: you have to accept then is those kinds of differences

302
00:16:10,880 --> 00:16:14,520
Speaker 1: exist in everything from you know, from plants to snails

303
00:16:14,520 --> 00:16:18,040
Speaker 1: to mice. Every population out there has sort of standing

304
00:16:18,080 --> 00:16:21,720
Speaker 1: genetic variation. It has differences among individuals and the traits

305
00:16:21,800 --> 00:16:24,520
Speaker 1: that you might look at and measure, and sometimes those

306
00:16:24,520 --> 00:16:28,560
Speaker 1: differences matter. Sometimes individuals that run faster actually do better

307
00:16:28,600 --> 00:16:31,040
Speaker 1: at getting away from predators and they live longer, or

308
00:16:31,400 --> 00:16:32,880
Speaker 1: you know, who knows what the traits are. In my

309
00:16:32,960 --> 00:16:35,600
Speaker 1: case and today's interview case, you know, we're going to

310
00:16:35,640 --> 00:16:38,160
Speaker 1: be sort of playing around with what kinds of conditions

311
00:16:38,200 --> 00:16:41,400
Speaker 1: cause the individuals with the really big weapons to win

312
00:16:41,720 --> 00:16:43,920
Speaker 1: to do better than the other individuals, because those are

313
00:16:43,920 --> 00:16:46,360
Speaker 1: the conditions that will lead to the evolution of big weapons.

314
00:16:46,400 --> 00:16:48,640
Speaker 1: But but the light and dark mice, it's a it's

315
00:16:48,640 --> 00:16:51,600
Speaker 1: a simple example of a real world population that's been

316
00:16:51,640 --> 00:16:54,560
Speaker 1: studied really well all the way down to people have

317
00:16:54,640 --> 00:16:57,440
Speaker 1: figured out the genomes, they know the individual genes, they

318
00:16:57,480 --> 00:17:00,320
Speaker 1: know the mutations to the genes that contributed to the rights.

319
00:17:00,360 --> 00:17:04,679
Speaker 1: So so from a biology standpoint, it's a beautifully complete story.

320
00:17:04,840 --> 00:17:07,800
Speaker 1: But it's basic. It's really simple. Mice are dark, they're brown.

321
00:17:08,000 --> 00:17:11,280
Speaker 1: They usually go forage at night because there's predators that

322
00:17:11,320 --> 00:17:14,240
Speaker 1: can spot them and eat them. Owls are still really

323
00:17:14,280 --> 00:17:16,760
Speaker 1: good at seeing contrast in the dark, so their main

324
00:17:16,800 --> 00:17:19,680
Speaker 1: predators when they're out at night or owls. And and

325
00:17:20,160 --> 00:17:22,800
Speaker 1: if you're a mouse running around on dark soils and

326
00:17:22,920 --> 00:17:26,440
Speaker 1: most of their habitat and you're too light, the contrast

327
00:17:26,600 --> 00:17:29,040
Speaker 1: makes you stand out and you get nailed by the owls,

328
00:17:29,040 --> 00:17:33,560
Speaker 1: And so owls have historically kept mouse populations pretty dark

329
00:17:33,600 --> 00:17:35,919
Speaker 1: brown because any of that were too light got nailed

330
00:17:36,359 --> 00:17:38,600
Speaker 1: and the ones they got cold from the population because

331
00:17:38,600 --> 00:17:41,480
Speaker 1: they stood out. And then a few thousand years ago,

332
00:17:41,880 --> 00:17:45,760
Speaker 1: mice colonized, They expanded their range, and they colonized the

333
00:17:45,800 --> 00:17:48,240
Speaker 1: coastal sand dunes around the Gulf of you know, the

334
00:17:48,240 --> 00:17:51,119
Speaker 1: Gulf in the southern United States, around the coast of Florida,

335
00:17:51,200 --> 00:17:53,720
Speaker 1: and you get out onto these dunes, and all of

336
00:17:53,760 --> 00:17:56,280
Speaker 1: a sudden, the dirt's not rich and dark and brown anymore.

337
00:17:56,400 --> 00:17:58,639
Speaker 1: You're out on sand dunes, it's like piles of salt.

338
00:17:58,760 --> 00:18:01,440
Speaker 1: I mean, some places it's really white. And so what

339
00:18:01,600 --> 00:18:03,680
Speaker 1: happened is the mice are still being mice. They're doing

340
00:18:03,680 --> 00:18:05,639
Speaker 1: all the same things, but now they're running around at

341
00:18:05,720 --> 00:18:08,120
Speaker 1: night on white and all of a sudden, the dark

342
00:18:08,200 --> 00:18:11,360
Speaker 1: mice stood out really badly, and they got hammered by

343
00:18:11,400 --> 00:18:13,800
Speaker 1: the owls because they kept seeing these dark mice and

344
00:18:13,920 --> 00:18:17,960
Speaker 1: nailing them. And by pure dumb luck chance, a small

345
00:18:18,080 --> 00:18:21,080
Speaker 1: number of these mice carried mutations in their genome that

346
00:18:21,200 --> 00:18:25,200
Speaker 1: screwed around with the pathway that makes the dark melon

347
00:18:25,240 --> 00:18:28,080
Speaker 1: and pigment in the fur, and they happened, by chance,

348
00:18:28,119 --> 00:18:30,600
Speaker 1: to be lighter. More of their fur was white and

349
00:18:30,680 --> 00:18:33,280
Speaker 1: less of it was dark. And normally in the main

350
00:18:33,320 --> 00:18:35,440
Speaker 1: areas they get hammered because they look bad, they're they're

351
00:18:35,440 --> 00:18:37,600
Speaker 1: too light, they stand out. But out here on these

352
00:18:37,600 --> 00:18:41,080
Speaker 1: outer fringes, those individuals did better because they were lighter

353
00:18:41,119 --> 00:18:42,959
Speaker 1: in color and they were more likely to hide than

354
00:18:43,000 --> 00:18:46,000
Speaker 1: the dark mice. And so out on these coastal populations.

355
00:18:46,119 --> 00:18:48,120
Speaker 1: You know, owls are still being owls. They're just going

356
00:18:48,160 --> 00:18:51,359
Speaker 1: for whatever they find. But in those populations, they're eating

357
00:18:51,359 --> 00:18:53,359
Speaker 1: all the dark mice. And it was the ones that

358
00:18:53,480 --> 00:18:56,560
Speaker 1: carried these these random genetic mutations that made them lighter.

359
00:18:56,600 --> 00:18:59,800
Speaker 1: Those mice survived, they had all the kids, and then

360
00:19:00,000 --> 00:19:02,919
Speaker 1: over time these mice populations got whiter and whiter, and

361
00:19:03,000 --> 00:19:06,520
Speaker 1: now we have two sort of side by side areas

362
00:19:06,560 --> 00:19:09,359
Speaker 1: with white mice and dark mice, and we think it

363
00:19:09,440 --> 00:19:11,679
Speaker 1: was driven by selection from these predators. And so the

364
00:19:11,680 --> 00:19:13,600
Speaker 1: experiment I talked about in the book was a classic.

365
00:19:13,640 --> 00:19:18,119
Speaker 1: They set up in the seventies where they had captive owls.

366
00:19:18,359 --> 00:19:21,680
Speaker 1: They trucked in truckloads of sand and they created arenas

367
00:19:21,680 --> 00:19:24,159
Speaker 1: with white soil, like like from the coast, and then

368
00:19:24,160 --> 00:19:27,120
Speaker 1: they had other arenas with dark soil, and then they

369
00:19:27,160 --> 00:19:29,399
Speaker 1: just released mice and let the owls do what the

370
00:19:29,440 --> 00:19:32,280
Speaker 1: owl's dead. And they showed really cleanly that on the

371
00:19:32,359 --> 00:19:34,639
Speaker 1: dark soil, it's the white mice that get nailed, and

372
00:19:34,720 --> 00:19:37,240
Speaker 1: on the light soil it's the dark mice that get nailed.

373
00:19:37,720 --> 00:19:39,840
Speaker 1: And they were able to show that the owls were

374
00:19:39,840 --> 00:19:42,439
Speaker 1: sort of to use the technical language, acting as agents

375
00:19:42,480 --> 00:19:45,600
Speaker 1: of selection. They were selecting for dark or light mice

376
00:19:45,800 --> 00:19:49,200
Speaker 1: on these different backgrounds. So it's a nice example of

377
00:19:49,840 --> 00:19:52,600
Speaker 1: a process of winners and losers. The color of the

378
00:19:52,640 --> 00:19:56,120
Speaker 1: mouse differed from mouse to mouse, and in each environment

379
00:19:56,119 --> 00:19:59,399
Speaker 1: it mattered. The ones that had the right color combinations lived.

380
00:19:59,720 --> 00:20:02,080
Speaker 1: The one that had the bad combination stood out, like

381
00:20:02,119 --> 00:20:04,239
Speaker 1: you know, like a hunter wearing the wrong camo. You

382
00:20:04,280 --> 00:20:07,679
Speaker 1: stand out, you get noticed. And in that case, because

383
00:20:07,720 --> 00:20:11,040
Speaker 1: they were getting eaten, it ended up that some mice

384
00:20:11,080 --> 00:20:13,920
Speaker 1: were being more successful at surviving and reproducing in each area.

385
00:20:13,960 --> 00:20:17,200
Speaker 1: They passed on their inherited characteristics and the population changed

386
00:20:17,240 --> 00:20:20,200
Speaker 1: over time. It evolved so that now several thousand years later,

387
00:20:20,240 --> 00:20:23,280
Speaker 1: you know, a couple of thousand mouse generations later, those

388
00:20:23,280 --> 00:20:25,679
Speaker 1: two populations are totally different from each other. I mean

389
00:20:25,680 --> 00:20:28,679
Speaker 1: they look like different species. One's white and one's dark.

390
00:20:29,240 --> 00:20:32,560
Speaker 1: And that was a very recent, sort of gradual evolutionary

391
00:20:32,600 --> 00:20:37,840
Speaker 1: shift in the color example of the process. But that

392
00:20:37,920 --> 00:20:40,919
Speaker 1: process is happening all the time and just about anything

393
00:20:40,960 --> 00:20:45,080
Speaker 1: out there, it's on us as the scientist to figure out, Okay,

394
00:20:45,119 --> 00:20:47,639
Speaker 1: what are the things that differences among individuals? What are

395
00:20:47,640 --> 00:20:50,800
Speaker 1: the variations in this species that excuse me that matter?

396
00:20:51,800 --> 00:20:53,800
Speaker 1: Why do they matter? Why are these ones the ones

397
00:20:53,800 --> 00:20:55,240
Speaker 1: that are winning and these ones are the ones that

398
00:20:55,280 --> 00:20:56,919
Speaker 1: are losing? And we can go out and sort of

399
00:20:56,960 --> 00:21:01,040
Speaker 1: study the process of evolution in the wild in real populations.

400
00:21:01,680 --> 00:21:04,120
Speaker 1: And again that's it's just a conceptual backdrop to turn

401
00:21:04,119 --> 00:21:07,480
Speaker 1: around and then say, wider weapons, get big. What I like?

402
00:21:07,560 --> 00:21:09,760
Speaker 1: What strikes me about that that quote that Steve just

403
00:21:09,840 --> 00:21:12,240
Speaker 1: read and what you're saying. And I know that happened

404
00:21:12,560 --> 00:21:15,760
Speaker 1: over whatever thousand generation might have even been less, but

405
00:21:15,840 --> 00:21:19,720
Speaker 1: it was fast. Yeah. But you know, the po posing

406
00:21:19,720 --> 00:21:23,359
Speaker 1: evolution that way, I think gives it a little bit

407
00:21:23,359 --> 00:21:26,159
Speaker 1: more of an immediacy. I think to a lot of

408
00:21:26,200 --> 00:21:28,560
Speaker 1: people it's it's kind of an abstraction. You know, it's

409
00:21:28,560 --> 00:21:33,359
Speaker 1: something that is working on like macro population levels, but

410
00:21:33,400 --> 00:21:35,439
Speaker 1: it really does come down to the individual and it

411
00:21:35,520 --> 00:21:39,159
Speaker 1: can change very rapidly. I'm really glad you brought that up. Actually,

412
00:21:39,160 --> 00:21:41,080
Speaker 1: if you forgive me for a digression here, I'm really

413
00:21:41,080 --> 00:21:42,840
Speaker 1: glad you brought that up because I run into this

414
00:21:42,880 --> 00:21:45,919
Speaker 1: in my classes. People have this antiquated notion of the

415
00:21:45,960 --> 00:21:49,280
Speaker 1: evolutionary biologist as this old, white haired geezer with a

416
00:21:49,320 --> 00:21:53,320
Speaker 1: big beard arguing about apes, and that's not what modern

417
00:21:53,440 --> 00:21:59,680
Speaker 1: I mean truly, My major professor was a white haired GUYE. No,

418
00:22:00,119 --> 00:22:04,040
Speaker 1: wasn't that. It wasn't that your dad. I'll take issue

419
00:22:04,040 --> 00:22:08,239
Speaker 1: of that. It that way, But wasn't your father an

420
00:22:08,240 --> 00:22:14,600
Speaker 1: evolutionary and my grandfationary biologist. It's like the family business.

421
00:22:14,720 --> 00:22:17,399
Speaker 1: But coming back, father was one of the founders of

422
00:22:17,400 --> 00:22:22,680
Speaker 1: the the field of animal Yeah, yeah, I broke away.

423
00:22:22,680 --> 00:22:24,320
Speaker 1: I don't work on birds, I work on beatles. That

424
00:22:24,440 --> 00:22:32,800
Speaker 1: was my radical Yeah, exactly, bigger sample sizes. But but

425
00:22:32,920 --> 00:22:35,480
Speaker 1: back to the reality. What is an evolutionary bologist. Evolutionary

426
00:22:35,520 --> 00:22:39,280
Speaker 1: biology today is incredibly relevant to things that that everybody

427
00:22:39,320 --> 00:22:41,840
Speaker 1: cares about. It's not a bunch of old timers arguing

428
00:22:41,840 --> 00:22:46,199
Speaker 1: about apes. It's about genomes and genetics and medicine. So huge,

429
00:22:46,320 --> 00:22:48,840
Speaker 1: just a list a couple issues that matter to people

430
00:22:48,880 --> 00:22:51,760
Speaker 1: every day. People on farms have to deal with the

431
00:22:51,800 --> 00:22:54,040
Speaker 1: fact that they go out there and try to control

432
00:22:54,119 --> 00:22:58,320
Speaker 1: pest populations on their crops by spraying pesticides, and very

433
00:22:58,400 --> 00:23:01,879
Speaker 1: quickly the insect pests evolvers asistance and they stop being susceptible.

434
00:23:01,920 --> 00:23:04,400
Speaker 1: That is evolution, no matter what people want to call it,

435
00:23:04,400 --> 00:23:07,399
Speaker 1: it's turnover. You're killing a bunch of the pests. Some

436
00:23:07,560 --> 00:23:10,919
Speaker 1: of the pests happen by chance to have variants in

437
00:23:10,920 --> 00:23:14,520
Speaker 1: their genomes that allow them to detoxify the chemicals that

438
00:23:14,560 --> 00:23:18,400
Speaker 1: you're spraying. Everybody else is dead. Those ones survive, they

439
00:23:18,400 --> 00:23:20,480
Speaker 1: have lots of kids. All of a sudden, your pest

440
00:23:20,520 --> 00:23:25,520
Speaker 1: population explodes. With all these competitions, no competition, they're all dead, right,

441
00:23:25,560 --> 00:23:28,119
Speaker 1: And yet you saw suddenly you can detoxify these chemical

442
00:23:28,160 --> 00:23:31,080
Speaker 1: that nobody else. That's the winner, winners and losers. They

443
00:23:31,119 --> 00:23:35,199
Speaker 1: start reproducing and the population evolves fast within it. You know,

444
00:23:35,280 --> 00:23:37,920
Speaker 1: most of the pesticides are obsolete within five to ten

445
00:23:38,040 --> 00:23:42,520
Speaker 1: years because insect populations adapt so quickly. Herb besides, same story.

446
00:23:42,960 --> 00:23:45,320
Speaker 1: You see the same thing with antibiotics. We're running into

447
00:23:45,400 --> 00:23:47,520
Speaker 1: huge problems now where you go to the hospital and

448
00:23:47,560 --> 00:23:50,080
Speaker 1: things that used to be standard can kill you because

449
00:23:50,080 --> 00:23:52,800
Speaker 1: the antibiotics that we have available to us don't work.

450
00:23:53,160 --> 00:23:55,320
Speaker 1: And again, people don't like to use the E word,

451
00:23:55,640 --> 00:23:58,520
Speaker 1: but the fact is that's evolution. When you apply a

452
00:23:58,600 --> 00:24:01,320
Speaker 1: dose of antibiotics, you are trying to kill a population

453
00:24:01,359 --> 00:24:04,440
Speaker 1: of bacteria. And if you kill them all you win.

454
00:24:04,760 --> 00:24:08,120
Speaker 1: Population goes extinct, Your infection is cured. But if there's

455
00:24:08,160 --> 00:24:12,159
Speaker 1: any genetic variation among individuals within that bacteria population that

456
00:24:12,160 --> 00:24:14,520
Speaker 1: allow a few of them to survive the drug. Just

457
00:24:14,560 --> 00:24:16,480
Speaker 1: what you said down, If you kill all the competition,

458
00:24:16,680 --> 00:24:20,000
Speaker 1: they're all dead. And the heavy Yeah they got gravy.

459
00:24:20,040 --> 00:24:23,080
Speaker 1: It's awesome. There's no competition, there's all these resources. They explode,

460
00:24:23,520 --> 00:24:26,439
Speaker 1: and now your population is shifted from one generation to

461
00:24:26,480 --> 00:24:28,960
Speaker 1: the next, or over a couple of dozen bacterial generations

462
00:24:29,000 --> 00:24:32,320
Speaker 1: yet is shifted from susceptible to resistance. And you, as

463
00:24:32,359 --> 00:24:35,639
Speaker 1: a as a doctor applying a drug, have driven that.

464
00:24:35,800 --> 00:24:37,879
Speaker 1: You've acted as an agent of selection, and you've driven

465
00:24:37,880 --> 00:24:40,720
Speaker 1: the evolution of that population. So modern evolutionary biology is

466
00:24:40,720 --> 00:24:43,639
Speaker 1: about drug design. It's about trying to figure out ways

467
00:24:43,640 --> 00:24:47,600
Speaker 1: to combat antibiotic resistant disease strains. It's about public health

468
00:24:47,640 --> 00:24:51,639
Speaker 1: trying to engineer mosquitoes so that they can't carry zickar denghy,

469
00:24:51,760 --> 00:24:54,760
Speaker 1: and and trying to figure out how to produce these

470
00:24:54,760 --> 00:24:57,840
Speaker 1: engineered mosquitoes and get them in the field to spread

471
00:24:58,080 --> 00:25:07,600
Speaker 1: enough that the wild populations become resistant or it's not wet. Yes,

472
00:25:07,800 --> 00:25:12,520
Speaker 1: it's a huge industry right now. Yeah, Genetically modifying mosquito.

473
00:25:12,600 --> 00:25:15,080
Speaker 1: You can engineer one that can no longer carry malaria

474
00:25:15,280 --> 00:25:17,920
Speaker 1: or zika or dangy, and I've had dany It sucks.

475
00:25:18,160 --> 00:25:20,119
Speaker 1: I mean, if this is a big deal. If you

476
00:25:20,119 --> 00:25:22,280
Speaker 1: can figure out how to make a mosquito that normally

477
00:25:22,359 --> 00:25:26,480
Speaker 1: is a vector that carries the disease incapable of harboring

478
00:25:26,520 --> 00:25:29,679
Speaker 1: the pathogen, You've done a lot. But you've just engineered this,

479
00:25:29,800 --> 00:25:32,520
Speaker 1: you know, screwed up genetically modified mosquito. You introduced it

480
00:25:32,520 --> 00:25:35,959
Speaker 1: into the wild, and it's not going to outcompete all

481
00:25:36,000 --> 00:25:38,919
Speaker 1: the other normal mosquitoes. So you can spend a fortune

482
00:25:38,920 --> 00:25:41,119
Speaker 1: building it in the lab, but trying to implement it

483
00:25:41,160 --> 00:25:43,080
Speaker 1: in the field is a problem. And that's where evolutionary

484
00:25:43,080 --> 00:25:47,159
Speaker 1: biology comes in. How figure out what kind of selective advance,

485
00:25:47,160 --> 00:25:49,119
Speaker 1: you know, how can you figure out ways to to

486
00:25:49,240 --> 00:25:53,639
Speaker 1: let something that is otherwise deleterious spread within a population

487
00:25:53,760 --> 00:25:57,680
Speaker 1: so that it gets abundant enough that the mosquito population

488
00:25:57,760 --> 00:26:00,879
Speaker 1: rit large stops being capable of sustaining the infections and

489
00:26:01,280 --> 00:26:04,040
Speaker 1: involves a lot of theory, involves a lot of evolutionary biology.

490
00:26:04,200 --> 00:26:06,440
Speaker 1: So that was a big tangent. But yeah, I'm glad

491
00:26:06,480 --> 00:26:09,280
Speaker 1: you brought it up. Evolutionary biology is a vibrant, thriving

492
00:26:09,320 --> 00:26:14,840
Speaker 1: field that's not arguing about apes. It's about molecular biology, genetics, genomics.

493
00:26:14,840 --> 00:26:16,719
Speaker 1: It all comes back to the white mice, the light

494
00:26:16,720 --> 00:26:19,960
Speaker 1: and dark mice turnover. When are their winners and losers?

495
00:26:19,960 --> 00:26:23,560
Speaker 1: When individuals do better than other individuals and the traits

496
00:26:23,640 --> 00:26:26,199
Speaker 1: that make them do better are heritable or passed on,

497
00:26:26,960 --> 00:26:29,600
Speaker 1: you've got the raw material for revolution. You watch that

498
00:26:29,640 --> 00:26:33,080
Speaker 1: population over time, and it's going to change. Okay, let

499
00:26:33,080 --> 00:26:36,159
Speaker 1: me hear you with this one. Is it still in

500
00:26:36,200 --> 00:26:41,840
Speaker 1: your circle? Um? Do we still talk? We meaning you

501
00:26:42,280 --> 00:26:45,800
Speaker 1: do you guys still talk about Um, there being a

502
00:26:45,840 --> 00:26:52,000
Speaker 1: difference between natural selection and sexual selections. Where I thought

503
00:26:52,000 --> 00:26:55,000
Speaker 1: you're gonna go between biological evolution and cultural evolution that

504
00:26:55,280 --> 00:26:58,680
Speaker 1: we can get there later. Between natural selection and sexual selection. Yeah,

505
00:26:59,000 --> 00:27:00,920
Speaker 1: you do? You still view the as He's like, you

506
00:27:00,960 --> 00:27:02,840
Speaker 1: think your audience is going to know what sexual selection is,

507
00:27:03,400 --> 00:27:06,800
Speaker 1: step back and define it. So do it through? All right?

508
00:27:07,320 --> 00:27:11,080
Speaker 1: So natural selection tends really a good way to think

509
00:27:11,119 --> 00:27:13,679
Speaker 1: about it is survival. It's which are the individuals that

510
00:27:13,720 --> 00:27:16,679
Speaker 1: are going to grow the fastest, are going to you know,

511
00:27:17,280 --> 00:27:20,320
Speaker 1: get access to the best territories outcompete other individuals for

512
00:27:20,359 --> 00:27:23,480
Speaker 1: access to food. They're going to be the most resistant pathogens,

513
00:27:23,680 --> 00:27:27,320
Speaker 1: who are the healthiest animals in the population, and the

514
00:27:27,320 --> 00:27:30,760
Speaker 1: ones most likely to survive a winter cold snap or

515
00:27:30,800 --> 00:27:33,479
Speaker 1: to get through, you know, a reproductive season. It's all

516
00:27:33,520 --> 00:27:38,479
Speaker 1: about sort of living and dying. Sexual selection is so

517
00:27:38,520 --> 00:27:41,639
Speaker 1: almost like a subset it fits. It's also winners and losers,

518
00:27:41,680 --> 00:27:44,040
Speaker 1: and it's it's very much an agent of selection that

519
00:27:44,119 --> 00:27:47,880
Speaker 1: can cause populations to evolve, but it really focuses on reproduction.

520
00:27:48,359 --> 00:27:52,640
Speaker 1: It's recognizing that even if everybody survives, they're not all

521
00:27:52,680 --> 00:27:55,560
Speaker 1: going to reproduce. You have winners and losers when it

522
00:27:55,600 --> 00:28:00,000
Speaker 1: comes to reproduction too, and that means that you've got

523
00:28:00,119 --> 00:28:03,960
Speaker 1: individuals with traits like big antlers who are more likely

524
00:28:04,320 --> 00:28:06,919
Speaker 1: to win access to the harems or to the territories,

525
00:28:06,920 --> 00:28:09,720
Speaker 1: that are more likely to breed with the females and

526
00:28:09,760 --> 00:28:12,840
Speaker 1: the population and transmit their genetic material to the next

527
00:28:12,840 --> 00:28:16,159
Speaker 1: generation than other individuals in the population that might be

528
00:28:16,240 --> 00:28:19,040
Speaker 1: more sickly, smaller antlers, not as good a condition, younger,

529
00:28:19,160 --> 00:28:22,000
Speaker 1: less dominant, all those things you've got. It's it's the

530
00:28:22,040 --> 00:28:25,240
Speaker 1: same raw material variation. You go out into a deer population,

531
00:28:25,280 --> 00:28:28,719
Speaker 1: or an elk population measure a hundred bulls, they're not

532
00:28:28,800 --> 00:28:31,280
Speaker 1: the same. Some of them are bigger than others, some

533
00:28:31,320 --> 00:28:33,280
Speaker 1: of them are stronger, some are more aggressive, some of

534
00:28:33,320 --> 00:28:36,720
Speaker 1: them have a lot bigger antlers than others. Those traits matter,

535
00:28:37,359 --> 00:28:40,200
Speaker 1: and the weapons matter a lot. And in that case,

536
00:28:40,440 --> 00:28:44,200
Speaker 1: sexual selection is the process by which you know individuals

537
00:28:44,200 --> 00:28:48,320
Speaker 1: with big antlers reproduce more than individuals with small antlers.

538
00:28:48,400 --> 00:28:52,120
Speaker 1: And since ultimately the currency for evolution isn't whether you

539
00:28:52,160 --> 00:28:55,840
Speaker 1: live or die, it's whether you reproduce, what matters is

540
00:28:55,880 --> 00:28:59,000
Speaker 1: who are the individuals in the population now that are

541
00:28:59,000 --> 00:29:03,200
Speaker 1: contributing of spring their genetic material to the next generation.

542
00:29:04,280 --> 00:29:07,480
Speaker 1: That's the end game. Doesn't matter if you're the healthiest,

543
00:29:07,480 --> 00:29:09,800
Speaker 1: strongest animal out there, doesn't matter if you're resistant to

544
00:29:09,840 --> 00:29:13,000
Speaker 1: every disease in the book and you live forever. If

545
00:29:13,040 --> 00:29:16,320
Speaker 1: you fail in the game of producing offspring in a

546
00:29:16,320 --> 00:29:20,400
Speaker 1: biological population of something like, it's a genetic dead end.

547
00:29:20,960 --> 00:29:24,360
Speaker 1: And so the real end game is reproduction, and sexual

548
00:29:24,360 --> 00:29:28,840
Speaker 1: selection is all the stuff the crazy sperm competition, battles,

549
00:29:28,920 --> 00:29:32,680
Speaker 1: female choice, male competition, all the things that happen in

550
00:29:32,760 --> 00:29:35,920
Speaker 1: real world animal populations that cause some animals to win

551
00:29:36,440 --> 00:29:40,440
Speaker 1: and other animals to lose in the game of reproduction. Okay, man,

552
00:29:40,480 --> 00:29:41,640
Speaker 1: that was a bunch of things. I want to ask

553
00:29:41,680 --> 00:29:46,360
Speaker 1: you about my going off too far. You can strap

554
00:29:46,440 --> 00:29:49,280
Speaker 1: me up if you need to say, help me keep

555
00:29:49,520 --> 00:29:52,080
Speaker 1: help me, keep track, Johnnie. Okay, I want you to

556
00:29:52,120 --> 00:29:55,200
Speaker 1: explain couple things. I want you to talk about the

557
00:29:55,240 --> 00:30:02,440
Speaker 1: idea that UM the way in which differentiated land escapes. Okay, no,

558
00:30:02,600 --> 00:30:05,080
Speaker 1: it's not okay, couldn't send me that on your I'm

559
00:30:05,080 --> 00:30:06,880
Speaker 1: meant to ask you, did I have no idea what

560
00:30:06,960 --> 00:30:09,920
Speaker 1: you mean by this? So you were talking? Okay, here

561
00:30:09,960 --> 00:30:12,960
Speaker 1: we go. Okay, So I want to do differentiated landscapes.

562
00:30:13,000 --> 00:30:14,640
Speaker 1: I don't know what that is. I'll tell you and

563
00:30:14,680 --> 00:30:17,000
Speaker 1: I want to do I'm not using your word, I'm

564
00:30:17,040 --> 00:30:18,760
Speaker 1: using my world. You'll know what I'm talking about. What

565
00:30:18,800 --> 00:30:21,520
Speaker 1: you'll know what I'm talking at. Want to explain it.

566
00:30:21,560 --> 00:30:25,240
Speaker 1: I'm learning differentiated landscapes and I want uh and I

567
00:30:25,240 --> 00:30:30,160
Speaker 1: want you to talk about UM the different like you

568
00:30:30,160 --> 00:30:33,400
Speaker 1: mentioned earlier. You could have like six bull elk right, Yeah,

569
00:30:33,400 --> 00:30:38,000
Speaker 1: that the difference in size, how they can develop the

570
00:30:38,000 --> 00:30:42,360
Speaker 1: difference in size of their bodies, which a're like relatively

571
00:30:42,400 --> 00:30:47,720
Speaker 1: homogeneous versus the difference in size of their antlers. Yes,

572
00:30:48,800 --> 00:30:50,960
Speaker 1: what does that have to do with differentiated? Two different ideas?

573
00:30:51,000 --> 00:30:54,360
Speaker 1: But not explain differentiate landscapes. I'm talking to your book

574
00:30:54,400 --> 00:31:00,920
Speaker 1: about what happens with an animal population where there's little

575
00:31:00,960 --> 00:31:05,520
Speaker 1: pockets of good habitat or little bottlenecks like a water source,

576
00:31:05,920 --> 00:31:10,960
Speaker 1: a certain food source, rather than this, rather than a

577
00:31:11,040 --> 00:31:16,400
Speaker 1: landscape where all the resources are equally distributed an omnipresent,

578
00:31:16,960 --> 00:31:20,320
Speaker 1: so there's no sort of like cool spot to hang out. Yes,

579
00:31:21,160 --> 00:31:22,600
Speaker 1: which one of the which one of those you want

580
00:31:22,600 --> 00:31:25,840
Speaker 1: to do first? Let's start with the second one, the

581
00:31:25,920 --> 00:31:29,240
Speaker 1: landscape idea that was the first one. That was the

582
00:31:29,280 --> 00:31:33,320
Speaker 1: first one, differentiated landscapes. I'm with Doug. I think that

583
00:31:33,320 --> 00:31:36,400
Speaker 1: that one came second. Which let's start with that. So

584
00:31:38,240 --> 00:31:42,360
Speaker 1: you're going to have potential for individuals, say elk, to

585
00:31:42,480 --> 00:31:45,719
Speaker 1: be competing with each other over access to, say, females.

586
00:31:45,760 --> 00:31:47,280
Speaker 1: So you can do beetles too, because I think I

587
00:31:47,320 --> 00:31:51,960
Speaker 1: think you explain it like because there's a wound, Because

588
00:31:52,000 --> 00:31:53,880
Speaker 1: actually it's a better it's a better tool for this.

589
00:31:53,960 --> 00:31:56,000
Speaker 1: It's just fewer people are used to thinking about beetles

590
00:31:56,040 --> 00:31:58,719
Speaker 1: the way I'm used to thinking about beetles. So in

591
00:31:58,800 --> 00:32:01,760
Speaker 1: any situation, if the landscape is uniform and what I

592
00:32:01,800 --> 00:32:06,760
Speaker 1: mean by that, I don't mean Kansas. There resources that

593
00:32:06,840 --> 00:32:10,880
Speaker 1: the animals depend on, If they're distributed uniformly in space,

594
00:32:12,240 --> 00:32:14,040
Speaker 1: then where are you going to guard? What the hell

595
00:32:14,080 --> 00:32:15,720
Speaker 1: are you going to fight over? I mean I could

596
00:32:15,720 --> 00:32:18,240
Speaker 1: be a bowl, and I could our beetle, and I

597
00:32:18,480 --> 00:32:20,800
Speaker 1: there's my spot, and I'm going to guard that, and

598
00:32:20,840 --> 00:32:22,960
Speaker 1: I stand over that, and I beat the crap out

599
00:32:22,960 --> 00:32:24,920
Speaker 1: of any other beetle that comes near. And if I've

600
00:32:24,920 --> 00:32:27,160
Speaker 1: got big enough weapons, and I might pay a price

601
00:32:27,240 --> 00:32:29,640
Speaker 1: to have big weapons, but you know I got big weapons,

602
00:32:29,640 --> 00:32:31,760
Speaker 1: and I fight, and I fight and I fight, and

603
00:32:31,840 --> 00:32:34,760
Speaker 1: I'm holding that ground and nobody else. No other males

604
00:32:34,760 --> 00:32:37,800
Speaker 1: get into my territory. And there's food in my territory.

605
00:32:37,840 --> 00:32:40,000
Speaker 1: But you know there's food over there and food over there,

606
00:32:40,000 --> 00:32:42,120
Speaker 1: and there and there and there. If the food resources

607
00:32:42,120 --> 00:32:45,640
Speaker 1: are everywhere, then what have I gained? Where are the

608
00:32:45,680 --> 00:32:47,400
Speaker 1: female is gonna go? They could go anywhere, they could

609
00:32:47,400 --> 00:32:49,600
Speaker 1: feed on any spot on that landscape. And I spend

610
00:32:49,640 --> 00:32:52,720
Speaker 1: all this money, not money, all these energetic resources and

611
00:32:52,760 --> 00:32:54,880
Speaker 1: this cost of producing this weapon, and I fight and

612
00:32:54,880 --> 00:32:58,160
Speaker 1: I fight, and I fight to guard my spot, but

613
00:32:58,240 --> 00:33:00,880
Speaker 1: my spot isn't any more valuable than body else's spots.

614
00:33:00,880 --> 00:33:02,560
Speaker 1: And there's all these other beetles out there that don't

615
00:33:02,560 --> 00:33:05,080
Speaker 1: bother fighting at all, and they get just as good

616
00:33:05,120 --> 00:33:08,120
Speaker 1: access to food. So what in the situation where the

617
00:33:08,160 --> 00:33:11,160
Speaker 1: resources are uniform, there's no benefit to fighting to guard

618
00:33:11,160 --> 00:33:14,440
Speaker 1: a territory. You don't win anything because everywhere is equally good.

619
00:33:15,000 --> 00:33:17,120
Speaker 1: But when you have a landscape that's I think you

620
00:33:17,200 --> 00:33:19,560
Speaker 1: meant differentiated, I would think of it as patchy, where

621
00:33:19,560 --> 00:33:23,040
Speaker 1: the key resources are very rare and they're localized. They're

622
00:33:23,080 --> 00:33:26,040
Speaker 1: clustered or clumped in space like a water hole you said.

623
00:33:26,160 --> 00:33:28,600
Speaker 1: Or the beetles that we work on they feed on

624
00:33:28,680 --> 00:33:30,680
Speaker 1: wounds on the side of a tree that ooze sap.

625
00:33:30,880 --> 00:33:33,160
Speaker 1: These beetles flying and they feed on the sap like

626
00:33:33,240 --> 00:33:36,200
Speaker 1: syrup on the side of the tree. In most places

627
00:33:36,240 --> 00:33:39,440
Speaker 1: where these beetles live, they they've got wimpy little mouthparts.

628
00:33:39,440 --> 00:33:42,040
Speaker 1: They can't drill into the trees like a woodpecker or

629
00:33:42,080 --> 00:33:45,440
Speaker 1: something can. They're stuck finding a place where a branch

630
00:33:45,520 --> 00:33:48,000
Speaker 1: struck the tree, or where some other animals already created

631
00:33:48,040 --> 00:33:51,240
Speaker 1: a wound, and it's oozing that's a hot spot. But

632
00:33:51,320 --> 00:33:54,000
Speaker 1: those things aren't everywhere. They're rare. I mean, there's only

633
00:33:54,040 --> 00:33:56,800
Speaker 1: a couple of hot spots within a mile radius, say,

634
00:33:57,120 --> 00:33:59,000
Speaker 1: and that's where you gotta be. That's the only place

635
00:33:59,000 --> 00:34:01,920
Speaker 1: where the food is. That is not a uniform landscape.

636
00:34:01,960 --> 00:34:05,840
Speaker 1: That's I guess you're saying differentiated. Good places to be

637
00:34:05,960 --> 00:34:09,160
Speaker 1: in bad places to be. Now, if I'm a male

638
00:34:09,280 --> 00:34:11,280
Speaker 1: and I've got a weapon, and I fight the crap

639
00:34:11,320 --> 00:34:13,760
Speaker 1: out of all the opponents, and I hold my ground

640
00:34:14,160 --> 00:34:17,439
Speaker 1: and I happen to be guarding the food spot, I win.

641
00:34:17,680 --> 00:34:19,440
Speaker 1: I'm the only one in town that's got it. All

642
00:34:19,480 --> 00:34:21,760
Speaker 1: the other males can't get it because I'm keeping them away,

643
00:34:22,080 --> 00:34:23,960
Speaker 1: And where are the female is going to go? They're

644
00:34:24,000 --> 00:34:26,439
Speaker 1: coming to me because I'm sitting on the only spot

645
00:34:26,480 --> 00:34:29,440
Speaker 1: that's good. So when you have landscapes that are patchy

646
00:34:29,640 --> 00:34:33,120
Speaker 1: and there are sort of hot spots of value interspersed

647
00:34:33,120 --> 00:34:36,120
Speaker 1: with large areas that aren't very good, that's the that's

648
00:34:36,160 --> 00:34:38,239
Speaker 1: the sort of physical environment that sets the stage for

649
00:34:38,280 --> 00:34:41,000
Speaker 1: all this kind of stuff because it creates opportunities for

650
00:34:41,040 --> 00:34:43,880
Speaker 1: winning and losing. It creates a situation where the dominant

651
00:34:43,920 --> 00:34:47,560
Speaker 1: individuals can guard something that matters, and if you win

652
00:34:47,640 --> 00:34:50,640
Speaker 1: those fights and you get that resource, you win because

653
00:34:50,680 --> 00:34:52,959
Speaker 1: the females come to you. You're the male that meets

654
00:34:52,960 --> 00:34:54,959
Speaker 1: with those females when they come in to feed. All

655
00:34:54,960 --> 00:34:57,880
Speaker 1: the other males lose, Like the males in the population

656
00:34:57,960 --> 00:35:00,600
Speaker 1: might get nothing because there's nowhere else to go and

657
00:35:00,640 --> 00:35:03,800
Speaker 1: they're not strong enough to get it. That's sexual selection.

658
00:35:03,920 --> 00:35:07,880
Speaker 1: It's competition about access in this case to a food resource.

659
00:35:07,920 --> 00:35:09,960
Speaker 1: But it's a food resource that attracts all the females,

660
00:35:10,160 --> 00:35:13,440
Speaker 1: so that's access to reproduction. The males that win in

661
00:35:13,480 --> 00:35:16,880
Speaker 1: those fights mate with lots of females, produce lots of offspring,

662
00:35:16,960 --> 00:35:20,720
Speaker 1: sire the next generation of the population, and the males

663
00:35:20,760 --> 00:35:23,960
Speaker 1: that fail get nothing. That's over, they're done. So do

664
00:35:24,000 --> 00:35:30,040
Speaker 1: you see less fighting in like the in the same

665
00:35:30,160 --> 00:35:32,879
Speaker 1: or that's why beetles are better than elk, because it's

666
00:35:32,880 --> 00:35:34,719
Speaker 1: hard for people to picture that in something like an

667
00:35:34,760 --> 00:35:37,640
Speaker 1: ungulate or a deer. In insects, it happens all the time.

668
00:35:37,800 --> 00:35:40,640
Speaker 1: A lot of times the food resources are so dispersed

669
00:35:41,040 --> 00:35:43,560
Speaker 1: that what happens is it's not the animals that are

670
00:35:43,560 --> 00:35:46,560
Speaker 1: built like tanks with big horns that win. It's the

671
00:35:46,600 --> 00:35:49,920
Speaker 1: animals that are really agile and that are lightweight and

672
00:35:49,960 --> 00:35:52,600
Speaker 1: have good wing ratios and store energy and they fly

673
00:35:52,719 --> 00:35:55,560
Speaker 1: really far. It's the ones that can search, and so

674
00:35:55,680 --> 00:35:58,719
Speaker 1: you find insects where they're really good at traveling long

675
00:35:58,800 --> 00:36:01,719
Speaker 1: distances looking that the animals are so spread out and

676
00:36:01,719 --> 00:36:04,200
Speaker 1: the unit the landscape is so sort of uniform, there's

677
00:36:04,239 --> 00:36:06,640
Speaker 1: no obvious place to be that the ones who win

678
00:36:06,680 --> 00:36:09,880
Speaker 1: are the ones that search, that can find members of

679
00:36:09,880 --> 00:36:12,520
Speaker 1: the other sex the fastest. So there's some moths where

680
00:36:12,520 --> 00:36:15,440
Speaker 1: the males have these antennae that are unbelievably good at

681
00:36:15,480 --> 00:36:18,600
Speaker 1: detecting the smells of the females and they're out there

682
00:36:18,600 --> 00:36:21,359
Speaker 1: cruising along for wind currents trying to pick up the scent.

683
00:36:21,520 --> 00:36:23,359
Speaker 1: I mean, the military has looked into these things. They're

684
00:36:23,360 --> 00:36:27,120
Speaker 1: the most sensitive chemo sensors known. They can actually detect

685
00:36:27,280 --> 00:36:30,560
Speaker 1: individual molecules of these pheromones, and we've never come up

686
00:36:30,560 --> 00:36:33,120
Speaker 1: with anything that's even within several orders of magnitude and

687
00:36:33,160 --> 00:36:36,080
Speaker 1: being that sensitive to you know, a chemical that we

688
00:36:36,160 --> 00:36:38,399
Speaker 1: might want to detect. But these moths are really good

689
00:36:38,440 --> 00:36:42,160
Speaker 1: at it because their resources are sort of uniformly or

690
00:36:42,239 --> 00:36:44,560
Speaker 1: randomly distributed, and the only way to win in that

691
00:36:44,640 --> 00:36:46,719
Speaker 1: game is to be better at smelling a female, are

692
00:36:46,760 --> 00:36:49,680
Speaker 1: better at finding a female than other males, and so

693
00:36:49,760 --> 00:36:52,719
Speaker 1: competition plays out in a different way. They have huge antennae,

694
00:36:52,880 --> 00:36:55,759
Speaker 1: they're really good at flying, they search, but they don't

695
00:36:55,800 --> 00:36:58,239
Speaker 1: have weapons, they don't fight. Different kind of systems, so

696
00:36:58,280 --> 00:37:01,600
Speaker 1: they fall outside of your interests. Well, they're cool systems,

697
00:37:01,640 --> 00:37:04,560
Speaker 1: but yeah, I like I like the situations. You're differentiated

698
00:37:04,600 --> 00:37:07,800
Speaker 1: landscapes where where there really is a hot spot that matters,

699
00:37:08,040 --> 00:37:10,480
Speaker 1: and and if you can be the male that wins

700
00:37:11,280 --> 00:37:14,520
Speaker 1: access to that resource, then you win in the evolutionary

701
00:37:14,560 --> 00:37:17,520
Speaker 1: game because you're the one that gets access to the reproduction.

702
00:37:17,880 --> 00:37:20,080
Speaker 1: You you mentioned a couple of times so far, I

703
00:37:20,160 --> 00:37:23,280
Speaker 1: feel like you should pause and explain it in greater detail.

704
00:37:23,560 --> 00:37:27,120
Speaker 1: Is the costs. You keep talking about the enormous cost

705
00:37:27,280 --> 00:37:30,880
Speaker 1: or the expenditure of growing big horns or big teeth

706
00:37:31,000 --> 00:37:32,759
Speaker 1: or big antlers. And I'm glad you bring that up

707
00:37:32,760 --> 00:37:35,560
Speaker 1: because it come full circle back to the other half

708
00:37:35,560 --> 00:37:38,160
Speaker 1: of the question, the fact that antlers are more variable

709
00:37:38,280 --> 00:37:41,279
Speaker 1: an traits, because it actually ties into the costs. So

710
00:37:41,520 --> 00:37:45,280
Speaker 1: in a system like this where imagine your differentiated landscape

711
00:37:45,280 --> 00:37:48,400
Speaker 1: and you imagine your runounced speedle, and there's there's very

712
00:37:48,440 --> 00:37:51,600
Speaker 1: occasionally rare wounds on the side of a tree. That's

713
00:37:51,640 --> 00:37:54,080
Speaker 1: your oasis. That's like it. That's where the food is.

714
00:37:54,120 --> 00:37:55,960
Speaker 1: That's where all the females are going to come flying

715
00:37:55,960 --> 00:37:58,799
Speaker 1: from miles around to go feed at that spot. And

716
00:37:58,840 --> 00:38:01,719
Speaker 1: if you can be the male, it wins that you

717
00:38:01,760 --> 00:38:04,359
Speaker 1: win everything. And it really is winning everything. I mean,

718
00:38:04,360 --> 00:38:06,880
Speaker 1: in some of these populations, a very small percentage of

719
00:38:06,920 --> 00:38:10,759
Speaker 1: the males to all the reproducing, and the males lose

720
00:38:10,880 --> 00:38:14,360
Speaker 1: every generation. The mails are gone dead end, they fail,

721
00:38:15,040 --> 00:38:18,399
Speaker 1: and in a system like that, it really pays to win.

722
00:38:19,080 --> 00:38:21,319
Speaker 1: And imagine in that case, then if I'm a beetle

723
00:38:21,400 --> 00:38:24,080
Speaker 1: and I've got a bump sticking off me that allows

724
00:38:24,120 --> 00:38:27,279
Speaker 1: me to reach under and flip an opponent, it's gonna

725
00:38:27,320 --> 00:38:29,200
Speaker 1: be worth it no matter what that costs. If I've

726
00:38:29,200 --> 00:38:31,279
Speaker 1: got that and the other males don't, I've got an

727
00:38:31,360 --> 00:38:33,120
Speaker 1: edge and I'm going to win in these fights. And

728
00:38:33,120 --> 00:38:35,200
Speaker 1: therefore I'm the one that's reproducing, and my kids and

729
00:38:35,239 --> 00:38:38,839
Speaker 1: grandkids and great grandkids are the ones that populate the population.

730
00:38:39,160 --> 00:38:41,360
Speaker 1: The beatles are going to start getting this horn or

731
00:38:41,400 --> 00:38:44,320
Speaker 1: this thing sticking off their body that's used as a weapon,

732
00:38:45,000 --> 00:38:47,920
Speaker 1: but over time it's sort of a relative landscape. If

733
00:38:47,960 --> 00:38:50,480
Speaker 1: everybody's got horns the same size, and then another beetle

734
00:38:50,520 --> 00:38:53,200
Speaker 1: comes out with an even bigger weapon and allows him

735
00:38:53,239 --> 00:38:55,840
Speaker 1: to reach and flip his opponent before the other opponent

736
00:38:55,880 --> 00:38:58,080
Speaker 1: can even reach him, then that mail is going to

737
00:38:58,160 --> 00:38:59,920
Speaker 1: have an edge. So the weapons are gonna get bigger.

738
00:39:00,360 --> 00:39:02,600
Speaker 1: And then when everybody's got weapons that big, then it's

739
00:39:02,640 --> 00:39:04,279
Speaker 1: the one with the even bigger weapons that wins. And

740
00:39:04,320 --> 00:39:07,040
Speaker 1: this process sort of cycles and ratchets, and the weapons

741
00:39:07,080 --> 00:39:09,800
Speaker 1: get bigger and bigger and bigger, and as they get bigger,

742
00:39:09,800 --> 00:39:11,759
Speaker 1: they get more expensive. I know, it seemed like I

743
00:39:11,800 --> 00:39:17,480
Speaker 1: forgot your questions. You get caught in what we call

744
00:39:17,480 --> 00:39:20,120
Speaker 1: an arms race, and and these things start ratcheting bigger

745
00:39:20,120 --> 00:39:22,280
Speaker 1: and bigger and bigger and bigger and bigger, and along

746
00:39:22,320 --> 00:39:24,480
Speaker 1: the way they get more and more and more expensive.

747
00:39:24,640 --> 00:39:27,760
Speaker 1: And so when you start looking at costs and animal weapons,

748
00:39:27,760 --> 00:39:29,839
Speaker 1: we can talk about costs and military weapons too. They're

749
00:39:30,000 --> 00:39:34,160
Speaker 1: very expensive, but the costs get really staggering. So so

750
00:39:34,520 --> 00:39:37,640
Speaker 1: our rhinoceros beetle, the ones that we work on. A

751
00:39:37,760 --> 00:39:41,400
Speaker 1: mail puts thirty percent of his body weight into a weapon.

752
00:39:42,200 --> 00:39:44,200
Speaker 1: I mean I think about that weigh probably one eight

753
00:39:45,560 --> 00:39:49,520
Speaker 1: that's like like that. It's like a sixty pound thing

754
00:39:49,680 --> 00:39:52,680
Speaker 1: on top of my head. Be like this table glued

755
00:39:52,680 --> 00:39:54,840
Speaker 1: to the top of my head. That's what these beetles

756
00:39:54,880 --> 00:39:56,880
Speaker 1: are carrying around on their heads all day. That's a

757
00:39:57,000 --> 00:40:00,440
Speaker 1: huge investment. It costs in terms of resource is that

758
00:40:00,480 --> 00:40:02,840
Speaker 1: they need to grow that structure. Because all the material

759
00:40:02,880 --> 00:40:05,560
Speaker 1: that goes into that coffee table isn't going into my

760
00:40:05,600 --> 00:40:07,759
Speaker 1: heart or my lungs or my brain or anything else.

761
00:40:07,800 --> 00:40:09,680
Speaker 1: I'm putting it all into the coffee table and put

762
00:40:09,680 --> 00:40:13,080
Speaker 1: it into the weapon, So there's an allocation cost. Then

763
00:40:13,080 --> 00:40:15,319
Speaker 1: you've got to carry this thing around everywhere you go.

764
00:40:15,400 --> 00:40:17,960
Speaker 1: It's awkward and heavy, makes it harder to fly, makes

765
00:40:17,960 --> 00:40:20,759
Speaker 1: it harder to run. So there's sort of production and

766
00:40:20,840 --> 00:40:23,680
Speaker 1: maintenance costs that go with it. Weapons can get really

767
00:40:23,680 --> 00:40:26,920
Speaker 1: expensive in the beetles. Putting a horn together for a

768
00:40:26,960 --> 00:40:30,200
Speaker 1: male is so expensive that it forces these animals to

769
00:40:30,320 --> 00:40:33,160
Speaker 1: shunt resources away from other things. So the beetles with

770
00:40:33,200 --> 00:40:35,920
Speaker 1: the biggest horns have tiny eyes, and some of the

771
00:40:35,920 --> 00:40:39,440
Speaker 1: species we studied have males where they've stunted genitalia and

772
00:40:39,480 --> 00:40:43,400
Speaker 1: tiny testes, so they're really reallocating in the most absurd

773
00:40:43,440 --> 00:40:46,360
Speaker 1: way to get these weapons that you talk about, the

774
00:40:46,560 --> 00:40:52,920
Speaker 1: actually get a form of a form of osteoporosis studies. Yeah,

775
00:40:52,960 --> 00:40:57,319
Speaker 1: because the antlers and the antlers, because they regrow them

776
00:40:57,320 --> 00:41:00,840
Speaker 1: every year, they have to produce these enormous expensive structures,

777
00:41:00,840 --> 00:41:02,600
Speaker 1: and they've got to grow fast. And as far as

778
00:41:02,600 --> 00:41:06,239
Speaker 1: I know, antler bone is the fastest growing bone that's

779
00:41:06,239 --> 00:41:09,200
Speaker 1: ever been described for any any vertebrate ever. It's it's

780
00:41:09,239 --> 00:41:13,400
Speaker 1: growing at record speeds and they're pulling. They need calcium

781
00:41:13,400 --> 00:41:15,719
Speaker 1: and phosphorus and all these minerals to produce the bone,

782
00:41:15,760 --> 00:41:17,640
Speaker 1: and they don't get that much of that from the

783
00:41:17,760 --> 00:41:19,960
Speaker 1: leaves and the things that they feed on. And so

784
00:41:20,080 --> 00:41:21,800
Speaker 1: the people that have looked into this and studied have

785
00:41:21,920 --> 00:41:24,440
Speaker 1: found that there's no way that these bulls and bucks

786
00:41:24,440 --> 00:41:27,239
Speaker 1: can get enough from their food alone. They're growing it

787
00:41:27,360 --> 00:41:29,960
Speaker 1: too fast and there's just not enough of these minerals

788
00:41:29,960 --> 00:41:31,960
Speaker 1: in the food that they're eating. And that's when they

789
00:41:32,040 --> 00:41:35,120
Speaker 1: figured out that they're actually siphoning these things off the

790
00:41:35,160 --> 00:41:38,120
Speaker 1: other bones in their body. They're leaching calcium and phosphorus

791
00:41:38,160 --> 00:41:40,080
Speaker 1: out of their ribs and their spine and their femurs

792
00:41:40,080 --> 00:41:42,960
Speaker 1: and all the rest of the bones and reallocating it

793
00:41:43,000 --> 00:41:45,480
Speaker 1: to the antlers. So that forces them to go through

794
00:41:45,480 --> 00:41:48,600
Speaker 1: a period of osteoporosis during the rut before they have

795
00:41:48,600 --> 00:41:54,000
Speaker 1: an opportunity to replenish those resources. Really bad time, because

796
00:41:54,000 --> 00:41:56,359
Speaker 1: you're smacking into all these other bulls. So right when

797
00:41:56,360 --> 00:41:58,160
Speaker 1: you need to fight and throw down with all these

798
00:41:58,160 --> 00:42:01,279
Speaker 1: other eight hundred pound rivals, you've got brittle bones like

799
00:42:01,320 --> 00:42:03,520
Speaker 1: an old person. It's it's a bad formula. And then

800
00:42:03,840 --> 00:42:06,440
Speaker 1: they throw the antlers away and you gotta start. It's

801
00:42:06,440 --> 00:42:13,839
Speaker 1: like you're not even recouping that loss. It's gone there,

802
00:42:13,840 --> 00:42:16,879
Speaker 1: you know. Yeah, but you can imagine how that would

803
00:42:16,920 --> 00:42:19,680
Speaker 1: place a premium on any individuals that were in good

804
00:42:19,800 --> 00:42:23,760
Speaker 1: enough condition or had access to the best foraging spots.

805
00:42:23,840 --> 00:42:26,600
Speaker 1: They might have less osteo. Again, it comes back to variation.

806
00:42:27,000 --> 00:42:30,120
Speaker 1: Those bulls might pay a lower cost. They might have

807
00:42:30,239 --> 00:42:33,239
Speaker 1: less osteo process than a medium or poor quality bowl

808
00:42:33,320 --> 00:42:36,000
Speaker 1: that's in really crap quality territory that's also trying to

809
00:42:36,040 --> 00:42:39,960
Speaker 1: produce antlers, and so it may not be equal, but yeah,

810
00:42:40,120 --> 00:42:42,080
Speaker 1: they're all going through the same problem. They're all facing

811
00:42:42,120 --> 00:42:44,400
Speaker 1: the same dilemma. These things are expensive and when it

812
00:42:44,440 --> 00:42:47,040
Speaker 1: goes back to cost a great comparison. I think I

813
00:42:47,080 --> 00:42:51,360
Speaker 1: remember this from your class back in the day. Was

814
00:42:51,360 --> 00:42:53,560
Speaker 1: was that, like I think you said, for a bull

815
00:42:53,640 --> 00:42:57,360
Speaker 1: elk to like a mature bull to create the antlers

816
00:42:57,400 --> 00:43:01,080
Speaker 1: he needs for that year, it's a similar colore um

817
00:43:01,280 --> 00:43:06,080
Speaker 1: cost as a cow birthing a calf. Yeah, good memory.

818
00:43:06,800 --> 00:43:09,600
Speaker 1: This was a really clever Okay in time if I

819
00:43:09,600 --> 00:43:13,520
Speaker 1: explain some of these, so point out that the Sam

820
00:43:13,719 --> 00:43:15,759
Speaker 1: Longer and a very own special Sam Longer and too

821
00:43:15,880 --> 00:43:23,360
Speaker 1: special Doug Ellen's class. Yes you did behavior class, University Montana.

822
00:43:22,880 --> 00:43:29,520
Speaker 1: I went back in check he got today one of

823
00:43:29,520 --> 00:43:31,759
Speaker 1: the one of the greatest classes I ever I ever

824
00:43:31,840 --> 00:43:35,359
Speaker 1: took that. Paim say that fascinating fascinating, Well, you're just

825
00:43:35,480 --> 00:43:38,719
Speaker 1: you just take it so seriously. Fun stuff, lots of

826
00:43:38,800 --> 00:43:41,680
Speaker 1: lots of great video clips of animals beating the ship

827
00:43:41,800 --> 00:43:45,680
Speaker 1: out of each other, imagine that elephant seals and stuff.

828
00:43:46,040 --> 00:43:48,400
Speaker 1: But you bring up this point about, you know, the

829
00:43:48,640 --> 00:43:51,680
Speaker 1: energetic expense of doing this and and this was a

830
00:43:51,719 --> 00:43:54,480
Speaker 1: really clever set of studies and and I didn't do them.

831
00:43:54,480 --> 00:43:56,400
Speaker 1: I mean this is from the literature, but these people

832
00:43:56,920 --> 00:43:59,680
Speaker 1: they took advantage of the agriculture industry. So so if

833
00:43:59,719 --> 00:44:02,480
Speaker 1: you have cattle and your cattle farmer, you know everything

834
00:44:02,560 --> 00:44:04,480
Speaker 1: is about weight gain. I mean, you manage your you

835
00:44:04,520 --> 00:44:06,840
Speaker 1: manage your heard, you manage the four the feeds that

836
00:44:06,880 --> 00:44:09,560
Speaker 1: you're feeding them, the timing of things. Everything is coming

837
00:44:09,560 --> 00:44:11,600
Speaker 1: down to how quickly your animals can gain at what

838
00:44:11,680 --> 00:44:13,839
Speaker 1: rate they can gain weight. You want to buy them low,

839
00:44:14,320 --> 00:44:17,400
Speaker 1: fatten them up, sell them high. There's a huge industry

840
00:44:17,400 --> 00:44:21,560
Speaker 1: trying to understand the way that things like livestock put

841
00:44:21,600 --> 00:44:23,799
Speaker 1: on and gain muscle mass and weight. And so they

842
00:44:23,800 --> 00:44:26,760
Speaker 1: had actually broken this down and these really complicated models

843
00:44:26,760 --> 00:44:29,520
Speaker 1: where they were looking at all nitrogen, phosphors, put all

844
00:44:29,520 --> 00:44:32,759
Speaker 1: the different nutrients in paying attention to the diets. They

845
00:44:32,800 --> 00:44:36,240
Speaker 1: had input bone mass, the skeletal weights, the muscle mass,

846
00:44:36,280 --> 00:44:40,320
Speaker 1: the metabolic physiology, the weight, the sizes, all these parameters

847
00:44:40,320 --> 00:44:44,000
Speaker 1: on these animals, and they could predict really really accurately

848
00:44:44,040 --> 00:44:46,759
Speaker 1: how subtle changes to this or that piece of the

849
00:44:46,840 --> 00:44:50,840
Speaker 1: diet would translate into the rate at which these animals

850
00:44:50,840 --> 00:44:53,839
Speaker 1: were putting on muscle mass. And so, because people cared

851
00:44:53,840 --> 00:44:55,560
Speaker 1: a lot about that, they put a ton of time

852
00:44:55,560 --> 00:44:58,719
Speaker 1: and effort into parametizing these really complicated models, and they

853
00:44:58,760 --> 00:45:01,600
Speaker 1: did a really good job to gribing growth and weight

854
00:45:01,680 --> 00:45:05,080
Speaker 1: gain in vertebrates like that. So these biologists took the

855
00:45:05,120 --> 00:45:08,120
Speaker 1: models and said, hey, let's look at moose. Let's look

856
00:45:08,120 --> 00:45:11,200
Speaker 1: at something we care about. And they reset all the

857
00:45:11,200 --> 00:45:14,040
Speaker 1: parameters based on the bone densities and the leg lengths

858
00:45:14,040 --> 00:45:15,759
Speaker 1: and that, you know, all the height and all the

859
00:45:15,800 --> 00:45:19,080
Speaker 1: weights of the of the things like moose or caribou.

860
00:45:19,239 --> 00:45:21,680
Speaker 1: And turned around and said, all right, given the model

861
00:45:21,840 --> 00:45:25,480
Speaker 1: now parametized for a moose, how expensive or antlers? They

862
00:45:25,520 --> 00:45:27,920
Speaker 1: could burn antlers and figure out how many calories they

863
00:45:28,000 --> 00:45:30,520
Speaker 1: knew what was in it. They could basically figure out

864
00:45:30,640 --> 00:45:33,520
Speaker 1: what it costs in terms of nutrients and energy to

865
00:45:33,600 --> 00:45:36,200
Speaker 1: make an antler and then put that into the energy

866
00:45:36,200 --> 00:45:38,080
Speaker 1: budget of the animal and say how expensive is it?

867
00:45:38,360 --> 00:45:40,200
Speaker 1: And that's when they were stunned there, Like I mean,

868
00:45:40,280 --> 00:45:42,760
Speaker 1: they basically found I think it was two calves the

869
00:45:42,840 --> 00:45:45,680
Speaker 1: male bullet. I can't amber if it was moose producing

870
00:45:45,680 --> 00:45:49,279
Speaker 1: a full rack of antlers expended as much energy as

871
00:45:49,280 --> 00:45:52,239
Speaker 1: it took a female to raise two calves all the

872
00:45:52,280 --> 00:45:56,040
Speaker 1: way to weaning. Stunned, every nobody expected to be that expensive.

873
00:45:56,120 --> 00:45:58,640
Speaker 1: But it's a clever approach. It's a neat way to

874
00:45:58,640 --> 00:46:01,280
Speaker 1: do that. And then this guy great one step further

875
00:46:01,360 --> 00:46:03,719
Speaker 1: and they took the Irish elk, the extinct Irish elk,

876
00:46:03,760 --> 00:46:06,839
Speaker 1: which had these huge antlers, and try you know, they

877
00:46:06,880 --> 00:46:08,799
Speaker 1: had to make some guesses because we don't have any

878
00:46:08,800 --> 00:46:11,000
Speaker 1: living Irish elk, but they did a pretty good job

879
00:46:11,160 --> 00:46:13,319
Speaker 1: setting the models for them to try to figure out

880
00:46:13,360 --> 00:46:16,440
Speaker 1: just how expensive the antlers were. In they were pretty expensive.

881
00:46:16,600 --> 00:46:22,160
Speaker 1: You can see why they might have gone extinct. Yeah, well,

882
00:46:24,560 --> 00:46:27,000
Speaker 1: one could suggest, one could suggest. I'm not trying to

883
00:46:27,040 --> 00:46:29,359
Speaker 1: say that that's why. Well, let's add the caveat, because

884
00:46:29,400 --> 00:46:31,239
Speaker 1: because I think about these kinds of things, and and

885
00:46:31,239 --> 00:46:32,680
Speaker 1: one of the things we may get to when we

886
00:46:32,680 --> 00:46:35,680
Speaker 1: talk about arms racist today is that they cycle. There's

887
00:46:35,719 --> 00:46:39,560
Speaker 1: a very predictable sequence of stages, and eventually arms racist collapse.

888
00:46:39,640 --> 00:46:42,040
Speaker 1: The whole thing ends. The antlers or their weapons are

889
00:46:42,080 --> 00:46:44,399
Speaker 1: so expensive that they're not worth it anymore, and they're gone.

890
00:46:44,840 --> 00:46:47,000
Speaker 1: Normally in an animal when it happens, we're not arguing

891
00:46:47,000 --> 00:46:49,799
Speaker 1: that they go extinct. What means is some males come

892
00:46:49,840 --> 00:46:52,960
Speaker 1: along and don't bother producing the weapons, and those males win.

893
00:46:53,600 --> 00:46:55,840
Speaker 1: They're not paying the price, and the weapons really aren't

894
00:46:55,840 --> 00:46:57,680
Speaker 1: doing what they used to do any more, and all

895
00:46:57,680 --> 00:47:00,920
Speaker 1: of a sudden, individuals that ditched the weapons are the winners,

896
00:47:00,960 --> 00:47:04,040
Speaker 1: and the population loses the weapons and very quickly evolves

897
00:47:04,080 --> 00:47:06,400
Speaker 1: to a state where they no longer have the big weapons.

898
00:47:06,440 --> 00:47:10,560
Speaker 1: That's the normal way. The Irish elker the one exception

899
00:47:10,640 --> 00:47:13,960
Speaker 1: where they really might have actually gone extinct because of

900
00:47:13,960 --> 00:47:15,839
Speaker 1: the weapons. It's hard to say because we weren't there.

901
00:47:16,160 --> 00:47:18,400
Speaker 1: But what they found with these models is that the

902
00:47:18,440 --> 00:47:22,040
Speaker 1: antlers were so expensive that these bulls would have been

903
00:47:22,040 --> 00:47:24,799
Speaker 1: sort of right on the metabolic edge, and they would

904
00:47:24,840 --> 00:47:27,920
Speaker 1: have had barely enough time after the rut to recoup

905
00:47:27,960 --> 00:47:31,200
Speaker 1: the energetic losses before the next cycle. And then what

906
00:47:31,280 --> 00:47:33,960
Speaker 1: happened is not only were those antlers getting bigger and bigger,

907
00:47:34,440 --> 00:47:36,920
Speaker 1: but they have evidence from the pollen and the foss

908
00:47:36,920 --> 00:47:40,960
Speaker 1: and the climate records that the climate changed like pulling

909
00:47:40,960 --> 00:47:43,040
Speaker 1: the carpet out from under these animals. All of a sudden,

910
00:47:43,080 --> 00:47:44,600
Speaker 1: they went through I think it was called the Younger

911
00:47:44,680 --> 00:47:48,200
Speaker 1: Dry ask. The climate changed rather abruptly, and they can

912
00:47:48,200 --> 00:47:50,040
Speaker 1: tell from the pollen records that all the things that

913
00:47:50,080 --> 00:47:52,000
Speaker 1: they used to feed and were gone, and they were

914
00:47:52,040 --> 00:47:55,239
Speaker 1: forced to switch from herbs and things to grasses, things

915
00:47:55,239 --> 00:47:58,319
Speaker 1: that were a lot less nutritious, and so it's the

916
00:47:58,400 --> 00:48:01,120
Speaker 1: double It was the double punch, the expensive antlers that

917
00:48:01,160 --> 00:48:03,160
Speaker 1: are sort of pushing the limit of what's possible, and

918
00:48:03,160 --> 00:48:04,840
Speaker 1: then all of a sudden your food is gone and

919
00:48:04,840 --> 00:48:07,960
Speaker 1: you're forced to switch to something that's really crap quality,

920
00:48:08,080 --> 00:48:11,279
Speaker 1: and that combo might have been too much. So that's

921
00:48:11,320 --> 00:48:14,279
Speaker 1: the reason. Some people argue that the Irish actually went

922
00:48:14,360 --> 00:48:16,640
Speaker 1: extinct because of the weapons, But usually what happens is

923
00:48:16,640 --> 00:48:18,200
Speaker 1: they get caught on an arms race, they get bigger

924
00:48:18,200 --> 00:48:20,120
Speaker 1: and bigger and bigger, and then the whole thing collapses

925
00:48:20,120 --> 00:48:22,239
Speaker 1: and they ditched the weapons and go off on another path.

926
00:48:23,920 --> 00:48:26,839
Speaker 1: I never came back to you, But okay, don't do

927
00:48:26,880 --> 00:48:30,600
Speaker 1: this one next here sculted now. But there's a funny

928
00:48:30,640 --> 00:48:33,759
Speaker 1: story talking about with the Beatles. Where's this beetle And

929
00:48:33,800 --> 00:48:35,520
Speaker 1: there's like a female that goes down in the hole

930
00:48:35,880 --> 00:48:38,360
Speaker 1: and hangs out in the hole. Yeah, be he grows

931
00:48:38,360 --> 00:48:43,600
Speaker 1: his big, badass horn reguards the whole. But then there's

932
00:48:43,600 --> 00:48:47,160
Speaker 1: some little snaky dude with no horn who just burrows

933
00:48:47,239 --> 00:48:50,000
Speaker 1: down and comes in from under beneath a little sneak

934
00:48:50,000 --> 00:48:52,080
Speaker 1: attack and gets it on with the female and the

935
00:48:52,160 --> 00:48:53,879
Speaker 1: and the do with the big horns is hanging out.

936
00:48:53,960 --> 00:48:55,560
Speaker 1: Has no idea that it even happen. So these are

937
00:48:55,600 --> 00:48:57,719
Speaker 1: these are dunge beetles that live in Panama. A lot

938
00:48:57,760 --> 00:48:59,359
Speaker 1: of the dung bells have this problem. But the ones

939
00:48:59,400 --> 00:49:01,120
Speaker 1: that I was looking that live down in Panama and

940
00:49:01,120 --> 00:49:03,279
Speaker 1: the males have been nice, big rack of horns on

941
00:49:03,320 --> 00:49:05,880
Speaker 1: their heads. So they're big tank. Well they're little beetles,

942
00:49:05,920 --> 00:49:07,640
Speaker 1: but I mean the horns are big relative to the

943
00:49:07,640 --> 00:49:10,920
Speaker 1: tank pair of horns on their head. And and it's

944
00:49:10,960 --> 00:49:13,239
Speaker 1: important because again it depends on where we want to

945
00:49:13,280 --> 00:49:14,880
Speaker 1: go with it is one of the catalysts, one of

946
00:49:14,880 --> 00:49:19,359
Speaker 1: the things, one of the things that we think I

947
00:49:19,400 --> 00:49:22,600
Speaker 1: think precipitates an arms race and animals that sort of

948
00:49:22,640 --> 00:49:25,640
Speaker 1: aligns the last star into place. All of a sudden,

949
00:49:25,640 --> 00:49:28,279
Speaker 1: the population shoots off on this trajectory of bigger and

950
00:49:28,280 --> 00:49:32,200
Speaker 1: bigger and bigger weapons. Is a situation where the fight

951
00:49:32,280 --> 00:49:35,239
Speaker 1: dynamics change from being something that is sort of a

952
00:49:35,320 --> 00:49:39,080
Speaker 1: chaotic scramble to something that is much more consistently one

953
00:49:39,120 --> 00:49:42,680
Speaker 1: on one. Something about the biology, the habitat, the structure,

954
00:49:42,800 --> 00:49:45,600
Speaker 1: something about the way these animals are confronting each other

955
00:49:45,760 --> 00:49:48,160
Speaker 1: changes and then all of a sudden what had been

956
00:49:48,200 --> 00:49:52,000
Speaker 1: really chaotic becomes very consistent and predictable and repeatable one

957
00:49:52,080 --> 00:49:55,080
Speaker 1: on one duels. And that's this thing that I learned

958
00:49:55,120 --> 00:49:57,480
Speaker 1: actually from the military literature. Can spark an arms race

959
00:49:57,520 --> 00:49:59,720
Speaker 1: and start the whole process. So in the dung beetles,

960
00:50:00,120 --> 00:50:01,879
Speaker 1: most of the time we think of dung beetles, who

961
00:50:02,120 --> 00:50:03,680
Speaker 1: you know, for those of us that actually think about

962
00:50:03,719 --> 00:50:05,600
Speaker 1: dung beetles, But if you've ever been to Africa, you

963
00:50:05,640 --> 00:50:08,120
Speaker 1: picture these things that they've got. The they carve these balls,

964
00:50:08,160 --> 00:50:11,000
Speaker 1: they pushed the balls around on the ground. Those beetles

965
00:50:11,040 --> 00:50:13,680
Speaker 1: fight all the time. They scramble. None of them have

966
00:50:13,760 --> 00:50:16,479
Speaker 1: weapons never they do not have horns on those kinds

967
00:50:16,480 --> 00:50:19,000
Speaker 1: of beetles. And the fights are all sort of pandemonium

968
00:50:19,040 --> 00:50:23,120
Speaker 1: and scrambles, lots of animals all piling in. But there's subsets,

969
00:50:23,200 --> 00:50:26,000
Speaker 1: some lineages of dung beetles where they started digging the tunnels,

970
00:50:26,040 --> 00:50:28,399
Speaker 1: and you mentioned the whole and that was that, that

971
00:50:28,440 --> 00:50:31,360
Speaker 1: was the behavior change, that that that rewrote the rules,

972
00:50:31,440 --> 00:50:33,200
Speaker 1: because all of a sudden, the females are down in

973
00:50:33,200 --> 00:50:35,360
Speaker 1: a hole, they're in a tunnel. It's a tube, and

974
00:50:35,400 --> 00:50:38,239
Speaker 1: so the males plant themselves at the entrance and they

975
00:50:38,280 --> 00:50:40,839
Speaker 1: guard the tunnel, and all of a sudden, it's not

976
00:50:40,880 --> 00:50:43,919
Speaker 1: a scramble anymore, because you can't get attacked by ten

977
00:50:44,080 --> 00:50:46,600
Speaker 1: rivals at once. It's a tube. Only one beetle can

978
00:50:46,640 --> 00:50:49,000
Speaker 1: fit in the tunnel at a time, and so it's

979
00:50:49,000 --> 00:50:51,879
Speaker 1: not like they consciously decided to fight duels because it's

980
00:50:51,880 --> 00:50:54,400
Speaker 1: more honorable or anything like that. Suddenly they're in a tunnel,

981
00:50:54,400 --> 00:50:56,759
Speaker 1: and because they're in a tube, they only ever fight

982
00:50:56,800 --> 00:51:00,160
Speaker 1: one rival at a time. Boom, Just like that. It's

983
00:51:00,160 --> 00:51:02,440
Speaker 1: the catalyst, as simple as that. All of a sudden,

984
00:51:02,800 --> 00:51:06,640
Speaker 1: the males are fighting consistent, repeatable, pushing matches of strength,

985
00:51:07,040 --> 00:51:09,160
Speaker 1: and in that kind of a fight, the bigger, stronger

986
00:51:09,200 --> 00:51:11,560
Speaker 1: male wins. The mail with the weapons wins, and boom,

987
00:51:11,640 --> 00:51:15,000
Speaker 1: those lineages start evolving. Horns. It could be big curved

988
00:51:15,040 --> 00:51:17,200
Speaker 1: things on the thorax. It could be horns coming off

989
00:51:17,239 --> 00:51:20,160
Speaker 1: the head. I mean, there's there's hundreds of configurations of

990
00:51:20,200 --> 00:51:22,480
Speaker 1: these weapons. They've popped up again and again and again.

991
00:51:22,560 --> 00:51:25,200
Speaker 1: Every single time these beetles switched from fighting in a

992
00:51:25,280 --> 00:51:27,440
Speaker 1: scramble on the surface to fighting in a tube in

993
00:51:27,440 --> 00:51:30,160
Speaker 1: a tunnel. Just like that on an arms race. They

994
00:51:30,200 --> 00:51:32,440
Speaker 1: started getting weapons, and the weapons got bigger and bigger

995
00:51:32,440 --> 00:51:35,280
Speaker 1: and bigger. So the ones I was studying, these males

996
00:51:35,280 --> 00:51:37,759
Speaker 1: had big horns. They're guarding the tunnel. They're fighting these

997
00:51:37,840 --> 00:51:40,880
Speaker 1: duels with rivals at the entrance, and that's when the

998
00:51:40,920 --> 00:51:43,440
Speaker 1: little sneaky guys break the rules. The little males are

999
00:51:43,480 --> 00:51:46,000
Speaker 1: never gonna win their smaller body size. They're not as

1000
00:51:46,040 --> 00:51:48,200
Speaker 1: strong they've got they don't even have horns, I mean

1001
00:51:48,200 --> 00:51:50,279
Speaker 1: little nubbins where the weapons would be, so they got

1002
00:51:50,280 --> 00:51:53,799
Speaker 1: no weapons. They're never gonna win a fair fight. But

1003
00:51:53,880 --> 00:51:56,200
Speaker 1: they don't fight fair. They break the rules, and so

1004
00:51:56,239 --> 00:51:58,240
Speaker 1: they act like a female. They dig their own tunnel,

1005
00:51:58,360 --> 00:52:01,000
Speaker 1: they mine down in there, and then they cut over

1006
00:52:01,040 --> 00:52:03,080
Speaker 1: and they intercept the guarded tunnel. So you're the big

1007
00:52:03,080 --> 00:52:06,239
Speaker 1: guy at the entrance fighting the little sneaky buggers are

1008
00:52:06,320 --> 00:52:09,160
Speaker 1: are basically mining their way in beneath you, getting into

1009
00:52:09,200 --> 00:52:11,640
Speaker 1: your tunnel, going down, finding the female, meeting with the female,

1010
00:52:11,680 --> 00:52:14,239
Speaker 1: sneaking out again. The big guys that the entrance are

1011
00:52:14,239 --> 00:52:19,520
Speaker 1: oblivious that same thing exists with salmon. Uh chinook. Salmon

1012
00:52:19,600 --> 00:52:23,440
Speaker 1: have an alternate life history called precocious males. Or the

1013
00:52:23,520 --> 00:52:27,400
Speaker 1: jack exactly, but there's one there's ones that um unlike

1014
00:52:27,480 --> 00:52:30,040
Speaker 1: Jack's don't even go to the ocean, so they'll they'll

1015
00:52:30,560 --> 00:52:35,000
Speaker 1: become sexually mature like six months. Yeah, so so they're

1016
00:52:35,360 --> 00:52:37,239
Speaker 1: like jack didn't go to the ocean, Well Jack's do.

1017
00:52:37,520 --> 00:52:40,520
Speaker 1: Jack's do go to the ocean. So so Jack's there's

1018
00:52:40,560 --> 00:52:43,120
Speaker 1: there's multiple life histories and and a lot of these

1019
00:52:43,200 --> 00:52:45,279
Speaker 1: these salmon species. So you know, you've got everything from

1020
00:52:45,320 --> 00:52:47,759
Speaker 1: the big forty pound males that spent four years in

1021
00:52:47,760 --> 00:52:49,799
Speaker 1: the ocean to the jack's that just spent one year

1022
00:52:50,280 --> 00:52:52,520
Speaker 1: to the precocious males that never even go out. And

1023
00:52:52,520 --> 00:52:55,320
Speaker 1: so they'll be sexually mature like three inches long, and

1024
00:52:55,320 --> 00:52:58,080
Speaker 1: they'll hiden the rocks with with like you know, to

1025
00:52:58,360 --> 00:53:02,160
Speaker 1: fifty pound chinook and then the hen goes to layer

1026
00:53:02,239 --> 00:53:05,360
Speaker 1: eggs and they I've seen videos of this actually my

1027
00:53:05,360 --> 00:53:09,440
Speaker 1: my my buddy John. Yeah, he'll go in and jizz

1028
00:53:09,440 --> 00:53:12,120
Speaker 1: on him before before the big buck can and never

1029
00:53:12,200 --> 00:53:14,040
Speaker 1: even know it, and he doesn't have to go to

1030
00:53:14,080 --> 00:53:16,680
Speaker 1: all the expense of going to the ocean and and

1031
00:53:16,719 --> 00:53:21,360
Speaker 1: all the dangers that after six months exactly, it takes

1032
00:53:21,360 --> 00:53:25,160
Speaker 1: four years opportunity. And I've also read about how that

1033
00:53:25,160 --> 00:53:29,440
Speaker 1: that's helpful. Um from a conservation standpoint, that that sometimes

1034
00:53:30,040 --> 00:53:34,200
Speaker 1: when runs get so bad, so low, as they often

1035
00:53:34,280 --> 00:53:37,520
Speaker 1: do in this day and age, that sometimes like if

1036
00:53:37,560 --> 00:53:40,239
Speaker 1: there's only the one like a couple of females who

1037
00:53:40,280 --> 00:53:43,600
Speaker 1: make it back to a stream to spawn, they're they're

1038
00:53:43,640 --> 00:53:46,960
Speaker 1: able to you know, keep the keep the line going,

1039
00:53:47,080 --> 00:53:51,600
Speaker 1: keep the population exactly. You know, in college you think

1040
00:53:51,600 --> 00:53:54,080
Speaker 1: about it too, is will be like it's like the

1041
00:53:54,160 --> 00:53:59,919
Speaker 1: dude who um, I can't wait to see like a dude.

1042
00:54:00,000 --> 00:54:02,920
Speaker 1: Of girls are like, oh he's funny, right, that's like

1043
00:54:02,960 --> 00:54:06,520
Speaker 1: your guy that like burrows in right exactly. He's like

1044
00:54:06,600 --> 00:54:10,000
Speaker 1: playing a totally different trip, you know, yeah the friend zone. Yeah,

1045
00:54:10,000 --> 00:54:12,680
Speaker 1: he's fun I like he's funny. It's like he's a

1046
00:54:12,680 --> 00:54:15,480
Speaker 1: little digger digging in. You can tell me any everybody

1047
00:54:15,480 --> 00:54:18,680
Speaker 1: else is all fighting, so in beatles and things like this,

1048
00:54:18,760 --> 00:54:21,640
Speaker 1: we call it an alternative reproductive tactic or an alternative

1049
00:54:21,680 --> 00:54:24,560
Speaker 1: meeting tactic. And and lots of big horn sheep they've

1050
00:54:24,560 --> 00:54:28,000
Speaker 1: got coursers that because when a big male is fighting

1051
00:54:28,000 --> 00:54:30,239
Speaker 1: and distracted in a battle, a little guys running and

1052
00:54:30,320 --> 00:54:32,239
Speaker 1: chase the females off in corner him. What do you

1053
00:54:32,280 --> 00:54:35,719
Speaker 1: call those coursers? Aren't they called coursers and big horn sheep? Well, yeah,

1054
00:54:35,840 --> 00:54:38,400
Speaker 1: he's got a favorite thing. Are you gonna bring up

1055
00:54:38,400 --> 00:54:43,720
Speaker 1: your shirkers? Johnie? I thought about him, then I started

1056
00:54:43,800 --> 00:54:52,720
Speaker 1: not too Yeah, anyone, I'll hit you because he's backed

1057
00:54:52,760 --> 00:54:54,600
Speaker 1: up as it is. But okay, he's backed up by

1058
00:54:54,640 --> 00:54:59,040
Speaker 1: one question. Well he's playing it safe. He's backed up

1059
00:54:59,040 --> 00:55:01,200
Speaker 1: by one question. But he happened with the shirts, happening

1060
00:55:01,200 --> 00:55:04,320
Speaker 1: with the shirkers. We just want to know dogs opinion

1061
00:55:04,360 --> 00:55:08,960
Speaker 1: on its opinion on shirkers. Uh, you've heard of val Geist?

1062
00:55:10,040 --> 00:55:15,319
Speaker 1: Yeah what was that? He's not like our uncle or anything. No,

1063
00:55:15,480 --> 00:55:18,840
Speaker 1: I mean that was a loaded Yeah, well he's a

1064
00:55:18,880 --> 00:55:20,960
Speaker 1: loaded character. I mean I never actually met him, but

1065
00:55:21,000 --> 00:55:22,440
Speaker 1: I've read a ton of his work because he did

1066
00:55:22,480 --> 00:55:24,520
Speaker 1: a lot of the early conceptual work on the evolution

1067
00:55:24,560 --> 00:55:27,799
Speaker 1: of crazy structures. Yeah. Yeah, that's the big problem is

1068
00:55:27,840 --> 00:55:29,960
Speaker 1: it was mostly ideas and not a lot of data.

1069
00:55:30,320 --> 00:55:31,960
Speaker 1: But you know, I mean, now and then people get

1070
00:55:31,960 --> 00:55:34,480
Speaker 1: it right in a surprising number of his ideas that

1071
00:55:34,520 --> 00:55:36,680
Speaker 1: he just threw out there and never actually backed up,

1072
00:55:37,239 --> 00:55:40,359
Speaker 1: a lot of those ideas are turning out to be right. Yeah,

1073
00:55:40,400 --> 00:55:42,040
Speaker 1: we've had this conversation a lot of times. We're a

1074
00:55:42,080 --> 00:55:44,440
Speaker 1: lot of researchers such as yourself. Well, we'll talk about

1075
00:55:44,440 --> 00:55:48,160
Speaker 1: the um you know, his practice of being like, you know,

1076
00:55:48,239 --> 00:55:54,440
Speaker 1: what might have happened right enough times, it's like probability

1077
00:55:55,200 --> 00:55:58,439
Speaker 1: at the wall. So the idea of shirkers, which were

1078
00:55:58,760 --> 00:56:03,880
Speaker 1: bucks or bulls that would remove themselves from the breeding

1079
00:56:04,560 --> 00:56:07,440
Speaker 1: game or the rut and for four or five years

1080
00:56:07,480 --> 00:56:09,439
Speaker 1: just hang out at the top of the hill where

1081
00:56:09,440 --> 00:56:12,600
Speaker 1: the grass is thick and green lush, load up and

1082
00:56:12,640 --> 00:56:15,239
Speaker 1: load up and load up until at the point where

1083
00:56:15,239 --> 00:56:19,240
Speaker 1: they were bigger body wise, there was some bigger antler wise,

1084
00:56:19,280 --> 00:56:22,480
Speaker 1: and they could stroll in and they could breed everybody

1085
00:56:22,480 --> 00:56:25,200
Speaker 1: in pass their jeans. In one season, they could own

1086
00:56:25,680 --> 00:56:28,439
Speaker 1: the you know, the breeding rights. So I don't know

1087
00:56:28,600 --> 00:56:32,400
Speaker 1: whether those animals exist because I don't study on gult populations,

1088
00:56:32,400 --> 00:56:35,400
Speaker 1: but it wouldn't surprise me really. So let me give

1089
00:56:35,400 --> 00:56:41,919
Speaker 1: you an extreme example. Wraps Like it's about so so

1090
00:56:42,120 --> 00:56:44,360
Speaker 1: there are fish that that go even one step further.

1091
00:56:44,920 --> 00:56:50,920
Speaker 1: So so they start out life as a female. Because

1092
00:56:51,160 --> 00:56:55,200
Speaker 1: most females are able to reproduce. The variance and reproductive success,

1093
00:56:55,239 --> 00:56:57,880
Speaker 1: the difference between winners and losers females is pretty small.

1094
00:56:58,680 --> 00:57:01,480
Speaker 1: And then it's the males where the competition is really stark,

1095
00:57:01,520 --> 00:57:04,120
Speaker 1: and them get nothing in a very small percentage of

1096
00:57:04,160 --> 00:57:06,560
Speaker 1: them get all the reproduction. And so they'll start out

1097
00:57:06,560 --> 00:57:09,200
Speaker 1: as females and play it safe and breed literally as

1098
00:57:09,280 --> 00:57:12,680
Speaker 1: females while you know the breeding is good. And then

1099
00:57:12,760 --> 00:57:15,200
Speaker 1: and only if they get big enough and strong enough

1100
00:57:15,239 --> 00:57:17,440
Speaker 1: and the alpha male gets killed and he's suddenly removed

1101
00:57:17,440 --> 00:57:20,440
Speaker 1: and there's a vacancy, then the sort of next biggest

1102
00:57:20,440 --> 00:57:22,520
Speaker 1: in line switches from female to male, takes on the

1103
00:57:22,560 --> 00:57:25,440
Speaker 1: male status and steps into that role. It's in a way,

1104
00:57:25,520 --> 00:57:27,800
Speaker 1: it's like your shirker, except that you're not just sitting

1105
00:57:27,800 --> 00:57:30,640
Speaker 1: there eating on the greener pastor you're actually reproducing as

1106
00:57:30,640 --> 00:57:33,360
Speaker 1: a female that whole time. But you only flip and

1107
00:57:33,400 --> 00:57:36,840
Speaker 1: take on the really risky you know, high reward high

1108
00:57:37,200 --> 00:57:40,400
Speaker 1: whatever you want to say, that risky strategy. If and

1109
00:57:40,480 --> 00:57:43,000
Speaker 1: when you're big enough to tell me again, what's pieces

1110
00:57:43,160 --> 00:57:47,200
Speaker 1: was that? W R A S S. It's it's a

1111
00:57:47,280 --> 00:57:55,000
Speaker 1: coral reef there like Napoleon rass And I was just

1112
00:57:55,120 --> 00:57:57,960
Speaker 1: I just saw this on the Ultimate The New Blue

1113
00:57:58,000 --> 00:58:00,960
Speaker 1: Planet um from from BBC, which is on Netflix. They

1114
00:58:00,960 --> 00:58:03,919
Speaker 1: have a really cool segment on that and and how

1115
00:58:03,920 --> 00:58:07,160
Speaker 1: it goes away and the body goes undergoes that incredible

1116
00:58:07,240 --> 00:58:09,400
Speaker 1: change and it grows that huge bump on its head

1117
00:58:10,000 --> 00:58:14,040
Speaker 1: and yeah changes, it's sex. Yeah, man, you know what

1118
00:58:14,080 --> 00:58:18,880
Speaker 1: that program needs is uh two versions, one with David

1119
00:58:19,560 --> 00:58:22,640
Speaker 1: and one without him. I cannot listen to that, dude.

1120
00:58:22,680 --> 00:58:26,160
Speaker 1: Oh my god, I could listen to that, dude. All

1121
00:58:27,280 --> 00:58:30,440
Speaker 1: it makes it. It makes it that I watch the

1122
00:58:30,520 --> 00:58:38,320
Speaker 1: high end nature documentaries really like I feel like everybody

1123
00:58:38,400 --> 00:58:41,160
Speaker 1: because I feel like we tried, didn't we try getting

1124
00:58:41,200 --> 00:58:45,040
Speaker 1: Morgan Freeman and uh, I would so much prefer that.

1125
00:58:47,600 --> 00:58:50,280
Speaker 1: I heard a bird show up, a bird, you know,

1126
00:58:50,320 --> 00:58:53,040
Speaker 1: and then like the bird joins the thing just kills me. Man.

1127
00:58:53,080 --> 00:58:59,000
Speaker 1: It's like, would you please just say the lines writes

1128
00:58:59,080 --> 00:59:05,640
Speaker 1: the lines that anyway? Anyway. Another example bull frogs or

1129
00:59:05,680 --> 00:59:07,960
Speaker 1: frog A lot of frog populations, not bull frogs, but

1130
00:59:08,040 --> 00:59:12,000
Speaker 1: like tangara frogs and chorus frogs. They sing and the

1131
00:59:12,080 --> 00:59:14,560
Speaker 1: call that they sing is an honest signal of the

1132
00:59:14,600 --> 00:59:16,640
Speaker 1: size of the male. I mean again, they're they're larynx

1133
00:59:16,760 --> 00:59:20,439
Speaker 1: size tracks with their bodies. The big the big bull

1134
00:59:20,480 --> 00:59:23,200
Speaker 1: frogs are deeper the females can tell. The females orient

1135
00:59:23,280 --> 00:59:26,560
Speaker 1: towards the big guys. But singing like that is dangerous.

1136
00:59:26,560 --> 00:59:29,200
Speaker 1: They're out there calling, calling, calling, calling, they get hammered

1137
00:59:29,200 --> 00:59:31,720
Speaker 1: by bats that q in on the same properties of

1138
00:59:31,760 --> 00:59:34,000
Speaker 1: the song and eat them all. And so when you're

1139
00:59:34,000 --> 00:59:37,040
Speaker 1: out there singing, it's dangerous. You're risking death. And if

1140
00:59:37,040 --> 00:59:39,959
Speaker 1: you're a medium quality, mediocre, puny, little male, why would

1141
00:59:39,960 --> 00:59:42,480
Speaker 1: you go risk death if you're not gonna win anyway,

1142
00:59:42,480 --> 00:59:44,120
Speaker 1: Because there's a big guy over there, and all the

1143
00:59:44,160 --> 00:59:46,240
Speaker 1: females are going to go over there. And so when

1144
00:59:46,280 --> 00:59:48,320
Speaker 1: you find these populations, you find, first of all, a

1145
00:59:48,320 --> 00:59:51,080
Speaker 1: lot of the smaller males shut up. They play it safe.

1146
00:59:51,120 --> 00:59:53,680
Speaker 1: So they are the ultimate shirkers. They sneak, they hang

1147
00:59:53,720 --> 00:59:57,000
Speaker 1: out quiet, acting like a female. They're not singing singing singing,

1148
00:59:57,360 --> 00:59:59,240
Speaker 1: they look and act like a female. They creep up

1149
00:59:59,320 --> 01:00:01,680
Speaker 1: to the territory is with the big stud males, and

1150
01:00:01,720 --> 01:00:03,280
Speaker 1: they hang out on the edges, and they try to

1151
01:00:03,320 --> 01:00:05,640
Speaker 1: intercept females and mate with them as they come into

1152
01:00:05,640 --> 01:00:08,880
Speaker 1: the big male and then and then when they get

1153
01:00:08,880 --> 01:00:11,080
Speaker 1: big enough, and only when they get big enough, they

1154
01:00:11,120 --> 01:00:12,960
Speaker 1: switch over and start calling. And you can show that

1155
01:00:13,000 --> 01:00:14,560
Speaker 1: you can go in and take out the big guys.

1156
01:00:14,600 --> 01:00:16,720
Speaker 1: Just pull him out, remove him. All of a sudden,

1157
01:00:16,760 --> 01:00:19,280
Speaker 1: there's this pond and the big studs are gone. The

1158
01:00:19,360 --> 01:00:21,360
Speaker 1: next male. It's like the males in line can figure

1159
01:00:21,360 --> 01:00:23,600
Speaker 1: it out, like, holy sh it, he's not there anymore. Boom,

1160
01:00:23,640 --> 01:00:26,080
Speaker 1: they stop sneaking and they start calling and they step

1161
01:00:26,160 --> 01:00:29,240
Speaker 1: into so so shirking is real. Whether it happens in dear,

1162
01:00:29,280 --> 01:00:31,080
Speaker 1: I don't know, but it happens in frogs. That happens

1163
01:00:31,080 --> 01:00:33,520
Speaker 1: in a lot of things. How are you feeling, because

1164
01:00:34,040 --> 01:00:36,439
Speaker 1: that's how you brought up sugars. You got shot down

1165
01:00:36,480 --> 01:00:41,200
Speaker 1: bad and the biologists didn't agree. He all but came

1166
01:00:41,240 --> 01:00:46,280
Speaker 1: over and hit up sugar. But let's come back to

1167
01:00:46,400 --> 01:00:48,400
Speaker 1: the one that I'm behind on. Can I do that? Well,

1168
01:00:48,440 --> 01:00:50,360
Speaker 1: you tell me what you're behind on. So when I'm

1169
01:00:50,360 --> 01:00:52,760
Speaker 1: behind on, you mentioned that, you know, body size is

1170
01:00:53,160 --> 01:00:56,080
Speaker 1: the same, but antlers differ a lot. And we started

1171
01:00:56,080 --> 01:00:58,320
Speaker 1: flirted with his topic from different angles. It comes back

1172
01:00:58,360 --> 01:01:00,280
Speaker 1: to the signal. It's like, what is the thing that's

1173
01:01:00,280 --> 01:01:03,120
Speaker 1: sort of advertising the status or the size or the

1174
01:01:03,200 --> 01:01:05,720
Speaker 1: quality of a male. And in the frogs we just

1175
01:01:05,760 --> 01:01:08,040
Speaker 1: talked about, you know, the big guys have a deeper call.

1176
01:01:08,200 --> 01:01:11,000
Speaker 1: They sound different. The females can tell. It's an honest signal.

1177
01:01:11,080 --> 01:01:12,480
Speaker 1: You can't fake it. The only way to have a

1178
01:01:12,480 --> 01:01:14,960
Speaker 1: low song is to be huge, and if you're a

1179
01:01:15,000 --> 01:01:17,760
Speaker 1: little wimpy guy, there's just nothing you can do. You're stuck.

1180
01:01:17,840 --> 01:01:21,040
Speaker 1: It is. It is an intrinsically honest signal because it's difficult.

1181
01:01:21,080 --> 01:01:22,959
Speaker 1: You can't fake it. You can't be a puny little

1182
01:01:23,000 --> 01:01:25,080
Speaker 1: male and just suddenly say I'm going to sing the

1183
01:01:25,120 --> 01:01:27,640
Speaker 1: sexy song today. If you don't have the body to

1184
01:01:27,720 --> 01:01:30,479
Speaker 1: do it, you can't fake it. And signals like that

1185
01:01:31,040 --> 01:01:35,560
Speaker 1: are more stable evolutionarily, they're less susceptible to cheaters to collapse.

1186
01:01:35,640 --> 01:01:38,800
Speaker 1: Those signaling systems last a long time, and females that

1187
01:01:38,880 --> 01:01:42,080
Speaker 1: happen to pay attention to honest signals do better. They

1188
01:01:42,120 --> 01:01:44,880
Speaker 1: make better decisions than females that that might be more

1189
01:01:44,920 --> 01:01:47,200
Speaker 1: fickle or pay attention to other things that don't matter.

1190
01:01:47,600 --> 01:01:51,560
Speaker 1: And over time, female preferences evolve and track in on

1191
01:01:51,600 --> 01:01:54,520
Speaker 1: the things that are the most expensive, the most difficult

1192
01:01:54,520 --> 01:01:57,400
Speaker 1: for males to do, the most honest signals that you

1193
01:01:57,480 --> 01:02:00,560
Speaker 1: really can't fake. And and that's a part to biology

1194
01:02:00,600 --> 01:02:03,400
Speaker 1: that we know a lot about for big bird displays

1195
01:02:03,480 --> 01:02:06,040
Speaker 1: and song bird calls, all these things. They tend to

1196
01:02:06,040 --> 01:02:09,560
Speaker 1: be very expensive, they tend to be almost impossible to fake.

1197
01:02:09,960 --> 01:02:13,880
Speaker 1: They tend to be extravagant, charismatic, obvious things that a

1198
01:02:13,960 --> 01:02:16,800
Speaker 1: female can see really easily from a long way away.

1199
01:02:16,880 --> 01:02:18,960
Speaker 1: And they tend to be super variable. So if you

1200
01:02:19,040 --> 01:02:23,560
Speaker 1: took ten, I don't want Let's go back to the aim.

1201
01:02:23,640 --> 01:02:25,400
Speaker 1: He took a whole bunch of mails and lined them up,

1202
01:02:25,680 --> 01:02:28,200
Speaker 1: and you looked at things like body size, they differ

1203
01:02:28,240 --> 01:02:30,080
Speaker 1: a little bit. You know, the little guys might be

1204
01:02:30,120 --> 01:02:31,880
Speaker 1: about half as big as the big guys. But you

1205
01:02:31,880 --> 01:02:34,120
Speaker 1: look at the ornaments or the songs or whatever the

1206
01:02:34,240 --> 01:02:37,360
Speaker 1: signal is that they're focusing on, and it's wildly variable.

1207
01:02:37,440 --> 01:02:41,840
Speaker 1: Be tenfold, twentyfold, fifty fold difference in size or quality

1208
01:02:41,880 --> 01:02:44,360
Speaker 1: between the puny guys and the big guys. And that's

1209
01:02:44,400 --> 01:02:47,280
Speaker 1: not an accident. That's sort of how these signaling systems

1210
01:02:47,320 --> 01:02:50,440
Speaker 1: evolved in these animals, and it makes them a really

1211
01:02:50,440 --> 01:02:53,640
Speaker 1: important sort of differentiator of winners and losers. Back to

1212
01:02:53,680 --> 01:02:56,480
Speaker 1: sexual selection, it's the males with the best calls, or

1213
01:02:56,560 --> 01:03:00,600
Speaker 1: the the sexiest signals, or the most charismatic colorful displays.

1214
01:03:00,720 --> 01:03:02,600
Speaker 1: Those are the ones that win. You can't fake it.

1215
01:03:02,680 --> 01:03:04,040
Speaker 1: The only way to do that is to be a

1216
01:03:04,120 --> 01:03:06,400
Speaker 1: rock star, and the females que in on that and

1217
01:03:06,440 --> 01:03:09,280
Speaker 1: they pick the rock stars. So in talking about the

1218
01:03:09,320 --> 01:03:12,120
Speaker 1: percentage differences, like like, imagine that you have a year

1219
01:03:12,160 --> 01:03:14,880
Speaker 1: and a half old white tailed deer. Okay, whatever, he's

1220
01:03:14,880 --> 01:03:18,600
Speaker 1: a hundred twenty pounds, he's got little spike antlers. But

1221
01:03:18,680 --> 01:03:22,000
Speaker 1: then that's exactly the next year the deer could be

1222
01:03:22,520 --> 01:03:28,080
Speaker 1: whatever pounds and how what magnitude larger. So so you're

1223
01:03:28,120 --> 01:03:30,440
Speaker 1: you're asking antler questions. I work on beetles. I can

1224
01:03:30,440 --> 01:03:38,000
Speaker 1: only get if I tooks beetles be so beetles are

1225
01:03:38,000 --> 01:03:39,760
Speaker 1: a little simpler in the sense that I don't have them.

1226
01:03:40,000 --> 01:03:43,680
Speaker 1: The age cohorts confounding things because the biggest bat bucks

1227
01:03:43,680 --> 01:03:45,840
Speaker 1: and bulls are also the oldest. It's not an accident

1228
01:03:45,880 --> 01:03:48,000
Speaker 1: and it's part of the same equation. At the end

1229
01:03:48,000 --> 01:03:50,040
Speaker 1: of the day, the males with the biggest antlers are

1230
01:03:50,080 --> 01:03:52,400
Speaker 1: also the oldest and the most dominant and in the

1231
01:03:52,440 --> 01:03:55,760
Speaker 1: best physiological condition. It's not a coincidence that you're boone

1232
01:03:55,800 --> 01:03:58,560
Speaker 1: and crockett bull has the antlers that it has that's

1233
01:03:58,640 --> 01:04:01,080
Speaker 1: not an accident. But age is part of that. With

1234
01:04:01,160 --> 01:04:03,000
Speaker 1: the beatles, it's simpler because they're all sort of the

1235
01:04:03,000 --> 01:04:05,320
Speaker 1: same age. That's the point I never thought of. That's

1236
01:04:05,320 --> 01:04:07,840
Speaker 1: a good point with insects. It's they're all the same age.

1237
01:04:07,880 --> 01:04:10,240
Speaker 1: They're all adults. A little teeny guy is never gonna

1238
01:04:10,320 --> 01:04:12,520
Speaker 1: once he comes out a metamorphosis, goes from a grub

1239
01:04:12,520 --> 01:04:14,560
Speaker 1: to a beetle. He's stuck. It's like a suit of armor.

1240
01:04:14,600 --> 01:04:16,440
Speaker 1: It's not going to change. A little guy has a

1241
01:04:16,480 --> 01:04:18,400
Speaker 1: little horn, and he's gonna have a little horn till

1242
01:04:18,400 --> 01:04:20,680
Speaker 1: the day he dies. So you take age out of

1243
01:04:20,720 --> 01:04:23,960
Speaker 1: the equation, but it's the same process. I never thought

1244
01:04:23,960 --> 01:04:27,760
Speaker 1: about how how much that kind of simplifies things, just

1245
01:04:27,800 --> 01:04:30,560
Speaker 1: in terms of explaining it. The biology is the same too.

1246
01:04:30,640 --> 01:04:32,600
Speaker 1: But say I took a hundred males line them. I

1247
01:04:32,640 --> 01:04:34,840
Speaker 1: showed you a box before we started today, a box

1248
01:04:34,920 --> 01:04:37,000
Speaker 1: with like a hundred beetles all lined up in a row.

1249
01:04:37,640 --> 01:04:40,640
Speaker 1: And if I took that sample and I measured body size,

1250
01:04:40,760 --> 01:04:42,760
Speaker 1: and I compared the smallest guy all the way to

1251
01:04:42,800 --> 01:04:45,040
Speaker 1: the biggest, i'd find a nice sort of even gradient

1252
01:04:45,120 --> 01:04:47,560
Speaker 1: from little to big, and it'd be about a twofold

1253
01:04:47,720 --> 01:04:50,160
Speaker 1: one and half to two fold difference. The biggest beetles

1254
01:04:50,160 --> 01:04:53,400
Speaker 1: probably twice as long or twice as wide as the

1255
01:04:53,440 --> 01:04:56,320
Speaker 1: littlest beetle. But if I look at the horns, I'm

1256
01:04:56,360 --> 01:05:00,240
Speaker 1: looking at about a sixtyfold difference. I mean much here,

1257
01:05:00,320 --> 01:05:04,360
Speaker 1: not How do I say that two times different? I'm

1258
01:05:04,360 --> 01:05:07,600
Speaker 1: getting confused on air. Here, it's more like a fifteen

1259
01:05:07,600 --> 01:05:10,439
Speaker 1: to twenty fold sorry, difference between antler size. So two

1260
01:05:10,440 --> 01:05:14,000
Speaker 1: fold difference embody size and a fifteen to twenty fold

1261
01:05:14,040 --> 01:05:17,480
Speaker 1: difference in the antler size or the horn size. So

1262
01:05:17,480 --> 01:05:19,560
Speaker 1: so it comes back to what you mentioned a minute ago.

1263
01:05:19,560 --> 01:05:22,240
Speaker 1: The antlers are more variable the horns, and these beetles

1264
01:05:22,240 --> 01:05:24,720
Speaker 1: are more variable. You look at tusks, you look at

1265
01:05:24,760 --> 01:05:27,760
Speaker 1: any of these big weapons systems, fiddler crab claws, all

1266
01:05:27,800 --> 01:05:32,760
Speaker 1: these kinds of weapons are big. They're expensive, and they're

1267
01:05:32,840 --> 01:05:35,080
Speaker 1: wildly variable from mail to mail, and that's all part

1268
01:05:35,080 --> 01:05:37,880
Speaker 1: of the same thing. The reason they're variable is they're expensive.

1269
01:05:38,200 --> 01:05:40,800
Speaker 1: The little guys can't afford it. Only the best conditioned

1270
01:05:40,800 --> 01:05:43,640
Speaker 1: animals can afford to produce the really big weapons. Everybody

1271
01:05:43,640 --> 01:05:46,760
Speaker 1: else is stuck with a compromise, and so you end

1272
01:05:46,840 --> 01:05:50,040
Speaker 1: up having this huge sort of spectrum from the whimps

1273
01:05:50,080 --> 01:05:53,040
Speaker 1: with a little tiny things to the superstar best condition

1274
01:05:53,160 --> 01:05:56,440
Speaker 1: studs with the massive weapons. And it's not an accident.

1275
01:05:56,480 --> 01:05:59,600
Speaker 1: It's not random at all. For the beatles is it's

1276
01:05:59,600 --> 01:06:02,280
Speaker 1: who who is best at being a grub. It has

1277
01:06:02,320 --> 01:06:03,600
Speaker 1: a lot to do with that has to do with

1278
01:06:03,680 --> 01:06:06,440
Speaker 1: access to food, but it's more complicated than that, because

1279
01:06:06,440 --> 01:06:08,960
Speaker 1: who gets the best food in the field. You know,

1280
01:06:09,000 --> 01:06:10,840
Speaker 1: in the lab, I can manipulate I give them a

1281
01:06:10,840 --> 01:06:13,200
Speaker 1: lot of food, and I get huge beetles with massive horns.

1282
01:06:13,200 --> 01:06:15,240
Speaker 1: I give them very little food. They all grow up

1283
01:06:15,280 --> 01:06:17,080
Speaker 1: stunted and tiny, and none of them have any big

1284
01:06:17,080 --> 01:06:19,440
Speaker 1: weapons at all, so I can manipulate it. But in

1285
01:06:19,480 --> 01:06:22,000
Speaker 1: the wild it's not an accident. Same with elk and deer,

1286
01:06:22,240 --> 01:06:25,120
Speaker 1: it's not a coincidence. The best dominant individuals have the

1287
01:06:25,160 --> 01:06:26,960
Speaker 1: best territories, and they're the ones that are able to

1288
01:06:27,040 --> 01:06:29,280
Speaker 1: keep everybody else away so their kids have the least

1289
01:06:29,280 --> 01:06:32,320
Speaker 1: amount of competition. They're the ones that are most resistant

1290
01:06:32,320 --> 01:06:35,160
Speaker 1: to pathogens and parasites, the healthiest, the least likely to

1291
01:06:35,200 --> 01:06:38,560
Speaker 1: get sick, so everything sort of lines up in their favor,

1292
01:06:38,600 --> 01:06:41,400
Speaker 1: and those individuals have the most resources available to them.

1293
01:06:41,440 --> 01:06:44,720
Speaker 1: Other individuals are forced to more peripheral habitats. They're dealing

1294
01:06:44,720 --> 01:06:48,000
Speaker 1: with more crowded conditions. They're stressed out because they're losing

1295
01:06:48,000 --> 01:06:50,520
Speaker 1: the competition for access to resources all the time. The

1296
01:06:50,560 --> 01:06:52,840
Speaker 1: stress interacts with their immune systems, so they're sick a

1297
01:06:52,880 --> 01:06:55,680
Speaker 1: lot more often. You know, they have access to less food,

1298
01:06:55,760 --> 01:06:59,640
Speaker 1: poor quality food, more competition, more disease, more parasites. All

1299
01:06:59,720 --> 01:07:04,000
Speaker 1: that stuff plays out and separates the winners from the losers.

1300
01:07:04,000 --> 01:07:05,920
Speaker 1: And none of it's an accident. I mean, it's it's

1301
01:07:06,200 --> 01:07:09,120
Speaker 1: compounding and sort of self reinforcing. But the best conditioned

1302
01:07:09,160 --> 01:07:12,240
Speaker 1: animals are the ones that tend to win. In the insects,

1303
01:07:12,280 --> 01:07:14,800
Speaker 1: it even gets into the parents behavior. The females that

1304
01:07:14,840 --> 01:07:16,760
Speaker 1: are the best at picking the right spots to lay

1305
01:07:16,800 --> 01:07:19,480
Speaker 1: their eggs, their kids hatch and they just eat what's there.

1306
01:07:19,920 --> 01:07:22,040
Speaker 1: But you know, there's some individuals that are in really

1307
01:07:22,120 --> 01:07:25,520
Speaker 1: good places and other individuals that are allowsy places, and

1308
01:07:25,560 --> 01:07:28,000
Speaker 1: so right from the day they're born, it's it isn't

1309
01:07:28,000 --> 01:07:31,000
Speaker 1: a fair world. There's winners and losers, but it's not random.

1310
01:07:31,320 --> 01:07:34,240
Speaker 1: Has a lot to do with the behavior of the parents.

1311
01:07:34,480 --> 01:07:37,760
Speaker 1: We had a guy on who deals with nutrition and ungulus. Yeah,

1312
01:07:37,760 --> 01:07:41,200
Speaker 1: I would love to have heard that, and I find it.

1313
01:07:41,360 --> 01:07:45,040
Speaker 1: And he talks about this idea that, uh, the people

1314
01:07:45,080 --> 01:07:48,960
Speaker 1: talk about an area having good genetics for box, right,

1315
01:07:49,000 --> 01:07:52,160
Speaker 1: and so there's some area grows big box because of genetics.

1316
01:07:52,240 --> 01:07:55,360
Speaker 1: And he refutes that and talks about nutrition being the

1317
01:07:55,480 --> 01:07:58,960
Speaker 1: driver and not that animals nutrition, but in some ways

1318
01:07:59,240 --> 01:08:03,840
Speaker 1: a deer's eventual rack, it's going to depend on both

1319
01:08:04,080 --> 01:08:11,000
Speaker 1: it's it's mothers in utero nutrition. Totally. We see this

1320
01:08:11,040 --> 01:08:13,080
Speaker 1: with people that you can take these animals, you can

1321
01:08:13,120 --> 01:08:16,920
Speaker 1: take these animals from places with quote shitty genetics and

1322
01:08:16,960 --> 01:08:21,559
Speaker 1: put them in a situation genetics and that would mean

1323
01:08:21,640 --> 01:08:24,920
Speaker 1: habitats that are marginal with poor quality indovice in our

1324
01:08:25,040 --> 01:08:30,080
Speaker 1: lingo and like hunter lingo genetics the animals. Yes, but

1325
01:08:30,120 --> 01:08:33,439
Speaker 1: I'm telling about what hunters talk about. Hunters will be

1326
01:08:33,479 --> 01:08:36,679
Speaker 1: like why you know, like why are all these big

1327
01:08:36,720 --> 01:08:40,639
Speaker 1: bucks coming out of Iowa right, and be like, oh,

1328
01:08:40,720 --> 01:08:46,480
Speaker 1: you know the ioh, they got the genetics the population.

1329
01:08:47,040 --> 01:08:48,960
Speaker 1: But I'm not I'm talking about how people use it.

1330
01:08:49,720 --> 01:08:52,080
Speaker 1: Use it like that. They're like, oh, it's got the

1331
01:08:52,160 --> 01:08:55,799
Speaker 1: feed and got the genetics right, and they take animals

1332
01:08:55,840 --> 01:08:58,240
Speaker 1: from these places that's supposedly like out of the mule

1333
01:08:58,320 --> 01:09:01,880
Speaker 1: here from the Black Hills, supposedly have bad genetics, So

1334
01:09:01,920 --> 01:09:03,479
Speaker 1: there's nothing you can do that it's gonna be small.

1335
01:09:03,680 --> 01:09:06,479
Speaker 1: But you take mulder from the Black Hills and move

1336
01:09:06,560 --> 01:09:09,479
Speaker 1: them to a place where no, you're not changing the genetics.

1337
01:09:09,479 --> 01:09:12,200
Speaker 1: You take males and females move into place with different nutrition,

1338
01:09:12,400 --> 01:09:16,200
Speaker 1: and all a sudden their giants. So in general, weapons

1339
01:09:16,720 --> 01:09:20,960
Speaker 1: and ornaments and all those other traits, but weapons this kind,

1340
01:09:21,040 --> 01:09:25,839
Speaker 1: the sexually selected weapons tend to be exquisitely sensitive to nutrition.

1341
01:09:26,320 --> 01:09:28,439
Speaker 1: More sense. So we did experiments in the beetles. Will

1342
01:09:28,479 --> 01:09:31,000
Speaker 1: will manipulate nutrition, same kind of thing I just talked

1343
01:09:31,040 --> 01:09:32,360
Speaker 1: about if I give them a little food or a

1344
01:09:32,400 --> 01:09:36,000
Speaker 1: lot of food. Body size about a twofold difference, wing

1345
01:09:36,120 --> 01:09:39,759
Speaker 1: size about a twofold difference, eye size about a twofold difference,

1346
01:09:39,880 --> 01:09:44,240
Speaker 1: horn size about a fifteen fold difference. And so same animals,

1347
01:09:44,240 --> 01:09:48,240
Speaker 1: same experiment, same difference in nutrition. And legs and eyes

1348
01:09:48,280 --> 01:09:51,120
Speaker 1: and wings and all those things are sensitive to nutrition.

1349
01:09:51,160 --> 01:09:54,840
Speaker 1: They're all responding, but the weapons are responding more so,

1350
01:09:54,960 --> 01:09:58,400
Speaker 1: weapons are exquisitely sensitive to nutrition. It doesn't mean it's

1351
01:09:58,439 --> 01:10:01,080
Speaker 1: not genetic because it's not an accident in the wild.

1352
01:10:01,160 --> 01:10:04,480
Speaker 1: It's the best quality animals that usually end up succeeding

1353
01:10:04,479 --> 01:10:07,400
Speaker 1: in defending the best quality nutrition and the best resources.

1354
01:10:07,439 --> 01:10:10,840
Speaker 1: So you get this interaction between the quality of the genetics,

1355
01:10:10,920 --> 01:10:14,240
Speaker 1: the genotypes of those animals, and the environments that those

1356
01:10:14,240 --> 01:10:17,240
Speaker 1: animals are in. But all of that comes together and

1357
01:10:17,320 --> 01:10:20,040
Speaker 1: is expressed in these traits, these weapons, and there you

1358
01:10:20,200 --> 01:10:22,800
Speaker 1: very minute, if you very nutrition, I guarantee you you're

1359
01:10:22,800 --> 01:10:25,720
Speaker 1: gonna have an enormous effect on antler size. So so

1360
01:10:25,880 --> 01:10:28,320
Speaker 1: let me follow the logic here. I want to step

1361
01:10:28,320 --> 01:10:29,840
Speaker 1: back because I know we've been going off on all

1362
01:10:29,840 --> 01:10:32,640
Speaker 1: these directions. What I've been trying to talk about is

1363
01:10:33,680 --> 01:10:36,880
Speaker 1: the kinds of ecological situations that can spark an arms race,

1364
01:10:37,000 --> 01:10:39,519
Speaker 1: that can take a population that doesn't have big weapons,

1365
01:10:39,920 --> 01:10:43,680
Speaker 1: that's going about its business. Something changes, and all of

1366
01:10:43,720 --> 01:10:47,080
Speaker 1: a sudden, from that point forward, it's the suit you know,

1367
01:10:47,120 --> 01:10:49,320
Speaker 1: it's the bigger, stronger males with the weapons that win.

1368
01:10:49,520 --> 01:10:52,679
Speaker 1: They're able to monopolize access to some kind of resource,

1369
01:10:52,920 --> 01:10:55,120
Speaker 1: something that gives them an edge in the way that

1370
01:10:55,160 --> 01:10:58,280
Speaker 1: they come into contact with females. Something changed, and all

1371
01:10:58,320 --> 01:11:00,439
Speaker 1: of a sudden, bigger is better, and mails with the

1372
01:11:00,439 --> 01:11:03,200
Speaker 1: biggest weapons win. I talked in the dung beetle example

1373
01:11:03,240 --> 01:11:07,320
Speaker 1: about how suddenly starting to fight over tunnels, a simple

1374
01:11:07,400 --> 01:11:10,400
Speaker 1: change in behavior aligns the fights so that they're not

1375
01:11:10,439 --> 01:11:13,640
Speaker 1: scrambles anymore, now they're duels. That change in behavior, all

1376
01:11:13,640 --> 01:11:15,599
Speaker 1: of a sudden, bigger is better, because in a duel,

1377
01:11:15,960 --> 01:11:18,200
Speaker 1: the stronger male wins, and if a mail has a

1378
01:11:18,240 --> 01:11:20,280
Speaker 1: longer horn and he can pry better and get rid

1379
01:11:20,320 --> 01:11:22,519
Speaker 1: of the opponent better with the weapon, than the mail

1380
01:11:22,560 --> 01:11:24,799
Speaker 1: with the longer weapon wins. And so all of a sudden,

1381
01:11:24,840 --> 01:11:28,800
Speaker 1: that population gets tipped into this trajectory that we're talking

1382
01:11:28,800 --> 01:11:31,200
Speaker 1: about as an arms race, and from that point forward,

1383
01:11:31,240 --> 01:11:34,240
Speaker 1: bigger is better, and so very quickly the population or

1384
01:11:34,280 --> 01:11:36,760
Speaker 1: cross generations is going to ratchet up to bigger and

1385
01:11:36,760 --> 01:11:40,200
Speaker 1: bigger weapons. So that kind of a phenomenon happens with

1386
01:11:40,240 --> 01:11:43,400
Speaker 1: elephant tusks, It happens with cariboo, it happens with fiddler crabs,

1387
01:11:43,439 --> 01:11:45,839
Speaker 1: It happens with all these animals with these crazy weapons.

1388
01:11:46,240 --> 01:11:49,400
Speaker 1: The particular trigger might be different, but they all fight

1389
01:11:49,439 --> 01:11:52,559
Speaker 1: in duels, one on one contest, and once they start

1390
01:11:52,640 --> 01:11:56,240
Speaker 1: on this path, the arms race plays out the same way.

1391
01:11:56,360 --> 01:11:58,559
Speaker 1: Every single time. And that's a point I kind of

1392
01:11:58,560 --> 01:12:01,240
Speaker 1: want to take a second to make. Once that button

1393
01:12:01,280 --> 01:12:04,200
Speaker 1: gets pushed, go that beatles on the trajectory. It's in

1394
01:12:04,240 --> 01:12:07,080
Speaker 1: an arms race. The weapons get bigger and bigger and

1395
01:12:07,080 --> 01:12:10,760
Speaker 1: bigger and bigger, and a very very set set of

1396
01:12:10,840 --> 01:12:13,400
Speaker 1: things happens. As they get big, they get expensive. We

1397
01:12:13,479 --> 01:12:16,080
Speaker 1: talked about cost, So they get more and more expensive.

1398
01:12:16,439 --> 01:12:19,080
Speaker 1: What that means is fewer and fewer mails are up

1399
01:12:19,080 --> 01:12:21,280
Speaker 1: to the muster. Most of the males now can't pay

1400
01:12:21,320 --> 01:12:23,400
Speaker 1: that price because it's getting more and more and more

1401
01:12:23,439 --> 01:12:27,920
Speaker 1: expensive very quickly, the mails are out of the game.

1402
01:12:28,120 --> 01:12:30,840
Speaker 1: They just don't have the resources to produce the really

1403
01:12:30,840 --> 01:12:34,519
Speaker 1: big weapons, and so they're pretty much gone. Colladteral they lose.

1404
01:12:34,640 --> 01:12:37,880
Speaker 1: The population becomes more and more concentrated around a smaller

1405
01:12:37,880 --> 01:12:41,360
Speaker 1: and smaller subset of victorious males, and the benefits of

1406
01:12:41,400 --> 01:12:44,120
Speaker 1: these big weapons get stronger and bigger and bigger, and

1407
01:12:44,160 --> 01:12:47,519
Speaker 1: the whole process ratchets up. But you reach a point,

1408
01:12:47,600 --> 01:12:52,240
Speaker 1: a tipping point, where the winners and losers are so

1409
01:12:52,320 --> 01:12:54,800
Speaker 1: starkly different from each other, and so many males are

1410
01:12:54,800 --> 01:12:59,080
Speaker 1: getting nothing, nothing, nothing, nothing, that some of them somewhere

1411
01:12:59,200 --> 01:13:02,200
Speaker 1: stumble on a to break the rules. They cheat, Oh

1412
01:13:02,280 --> 01:13:04,000
Speaker 1: I forgot one more step. So the weapons get big,

1413
01:13:04,080 --> 01:13:06,439
Speaker 1: they get expensive. The fact that only a few males

1414
01:13:06,439 --> 01:13:09,040
Speaker 1: can do it, that's what gives us that variability we

1415
01:13:09,040 --> 01:13:12,639
Speaker 1: were talking about. That's the point where antlers are more

1416
01:13:12,800 --> 01:13:15,960
Speaker 1: variable than legs or ears or body size or fiddler

1417
01:13:16,000 --> 01:13:18,400
Speaker 1: crab claws are more variable than body size. All of

1418
01:13:18,439 --> 01:13:21,559
Speaker 1: a sudden, now those weapons are so expensive that only

1419
01:13:21,600 --> 01:13:23,960
Speaker 1: a few Boone and Crockett quality individuals can do it.

1420
01:13:24,000 --> 01:13:26,920
Speaker 1: The rest of them are stuck with suboptimal versions. The

1421
01:13:27,040 --> 01:13:31,280
Speaker 1: variation in the traits is pronounced that tip. That means

1422
01:13:31,320 --> 01:13:33,679
Speaker 1: that you suddenly got a signal. You've got a thing

1423
01:13:33,880 --> 01:13:36,879
Speaker 1: out there that is an honest indicator of fighting ability.

1424
01:13:37,120 --> 01:13:39,200
Speaker 1: It's not an accident that the biggest males have the

1425
01:13:39,200 --> 01:13:42,360
Speaker 1: biggest they're the studs. So if I'm a mediocre male

1426
01:13:42,360 --> 01:13:44,479
Speaker 1: with a medium rack and I look and I size

1427
01:13:44,560 --> 01:13:47,439
Speaker 1: up my opponent and he's got a massive rack, do

1428
01:13:47,520 --> 01:13:50,719
Speaker 1: I want to escalate in that fight? No, because really

1429
01:13:50,800 --> 01:13:53,320
Speaker 1: he's gonna beat me. Because it's an honest signal, and

1430
01:13:53,360 --> 01:13:56,000
Speaker 1: that male with bigger antlers is really the better fighter.

1431
01:13:56,479 --> 01:13:59,559
Speaker 1: And so in these animal populations, whether it's beetles, crabs,

1432
01:14:00,160 --> 01:14:03,400
Speaker 1: and I mean caribou, elephants, all these systems. Once the

1433
01:14:03,479 --> 01:14:06,200
Speaker 1: arms races at that point, and these weapons are big,

1434
01:14:06,240 --> 01:14:10,040
Speaker 1: they're expensive, they're variable, they're an honest signal of fighting ability.

1435
01:14:10,200 --> 01:14:12,960
Speaker 1: The next step kicks in and the weapons start acting

1436
01:14:13,000 --> 01:14:15,840
Speaker 1: as a deterrent. There a signal you don't actually have

1437
01:14:15,920 --> 01:14:17,840
Speaker 1: to fight with it, because all I need to do

1438
01:14:17,880 --> 01:14:20,240
Speaker 1: is look at that antler and I know I'm gonna lose.

1439
01:14:20,600 --> 01:14:22,920
Speaker 1: And so more and more in these populations, the small

1440
01:14:22,920 --> 01:14:25,840
Speaker 1: guys back down. They they size each other up, they

1441
01:14:25,880 --> 01:14:27,800
Speaker 1: spar a little bit, they look at each other. You

1442
01:14:27,840 --> 01:14:30,840
Speaker 1: see these great examples of antelope sort of strutt in

1443
01:14:30,920 --> 01:14:33,640
Speaker 1: side by side, or fallow deer. There's beautiful pictures of

1444
01:14:33,680 --> 01:14:35,680
Speaker 1: these males. They run side by side and they turn

1445
01:14:35,720 --> 01:14:37,680
Speaker 1: on the run back there like looking at each other

1446
01:14:37,680 --> 01:14:40,760
Speaker 1: whose antlers are bigger. And then the smaller ones usually leave.

1447
01:14:41,120 --> 01:14:43,280
Speaker 1: And so you reach this point in the cycle where

1448
01:14:43,320 --> 01:14:46,320
Speaker 1: the weapons are big, they're expensive, they're a signal, and

1449
01:14:46,360 --> 01:14:49,000
Speaker 1: all of a sudden they're a deterrent. You don't even

1450
01:14:49,040 --> 01:14:52,240
Speaker 1: have to fight anymore because most of your competition walks

1451
01:14:52,280 --> 01:14:54,559
Speaker 1: away because you're the stud and you've got the weapons

1452
01:14:54,600 --> 01:14:58,320
Speaker 1: and it's honest, And that's the point where you start.

1453
01:14:58,400 --> 01:15:00,720
Speaker 1: That's where there's tons of military pair aloes. By the way,

1454
01:15:00,760 --> 01:15:03,800
Speaker 1: if we go there and then you reach this point

1455
01:15:03,800 --> 01:15:06,360
Speaker 1: where the weapons are huge, only a tiny fraction of

1456
01:15:06,360 --> 01:15:08,800
Speaker 1: individuals can afford it. Nobody else is even in the game.

1457
01:15:09,000 --> 01:15:10,800
Speaker 1: They can't even not only can they not fight, I

1458
01:15:10,800 --> 01:15:13,439
Speaker 1: mean they don't even bother trying to fight. And that's

1459
01:15:13,439 --> 01:15:17,240
Speaker 1: the point where usually somebody breaks the rules the asymmetric warfare,

1460
01:15:17,320 --> 01:15:19,960
Speaker 1: the guerilla equivalent. Somebody cheats and figures out a way

1461
01:15:20,000 --> 01:15:22,799
Speaker 1: to screw that. Man, I'm not playing by those rules anymore,

1462
01:15:23,120 --> 01:15:25,679
Speaker 1: the sneaky dumb It's like, I'm not going to fight

1463
01:15:25,720 --> 01:15:27,240
Speaker 1: with the entrance. I'm not gonna win. So they dig

1464
01:15:27,240 --> 01:15:29,720
Speaker 1: a side tone and find another way, and that's the

1465
01:15:29,760 --> 01:15:32,360
Speaker 1: beginning of the end. Once the sneakers or the cheaters

1466
01:15:32,360 --> 01:15:36,280
Speaker 1: start doing too well, the whole thing collapses, The weapons disappear,

1467
01:15:36,560 --> 01:15:40,640
Speaker 1: and the whole process starts again. That cycle. Something aligns

1468
01:15:40,640 --> 01:15:42,360
Speaker 1: like a star so that all of a sudden, bigger

1469
01:15:42,400 --> 01:15:47,599
Speaker 1: is better population starts launching onto this trajectory bigger, bigger, bigger, bigger, bigger.

1470
01:15:47,920 --> 01:15:50,680
Speaker 1: They get bigger, they get expensive, they become exaggerated as

1471
01:15:50,720 --> 01:15:54,920
Speaker 1: a signal, they become a deterrent cheaters, and aage collapse.

1472
01:15:55,280 --> 01:15:58,160
Speaker 1: That sort of process repeats itself over and over again,

1473
01:15:58,160 --> 01:16:00,479
Speaker 1: and I would argue that just about any animal you

1474
01:16:00,479 --> 01:16:03,000
Speaker 1: can imagine, with the exception of the saber tooth cats

1475
01:16:03,040 --> 01:16:06,640
Speaker 1: that has huge weapons like that, has gone through exactly

1476
01:16:06,680 --> 01:16:09,639
Speaker 1: that cycle. And that's the parallel with the military. Military

1477
01:16:09,720 --> 01:16:12,240
Speaker 1: technologies go through the same cycle. They get triggered for

1478
01:16:12,240 --> 01:16:15,080
Speaker 1: the same reasons. Once they get triggered, the weapons get

1479
01:16:15,120 --> 01:16:17,479
Speaker 1: bigger and bigger and bigger. As they get bigger, they

1480
01:16:17,479 --> 01:16:20,120
Speaker 1: get more and more and more expensive. As they get

1481
01:16:20,120 --> 01:16:23,160
Speaker 1: more and more expensive, fewer countries or nations can afford

1482
01:16:23,200 --> 01:16:25,439
Speaker 1: to play the game. And then you reach a point

1483
01:16:25,439 --> 01:16:27,760
Speaker 1: where they're a deterrent because you got the weapons and

1484
01:16:27,800 --> 01:16:30,240
Speaker 1: nobody else does. And then the cheaters invade and the

1485
01:16:30,240 --> 01:16:32,960
Speaker 1: whole thing class and along comes some guys with airplane

1486
01:16:32,960 --> 01:16:37,240
Speaker 1: tickets and box cutters and brings you to your knees exactly,

1487
01:16:38,800 --> 01:16:41,240
Speaker 1: or cyber hackers. All throughout your book, you talk, you

1488
01:16:41,320 --> 01:16:45,040
Speaker 1: talk about military. Yeah, sure, let me go off on that,

1489
01:16:45,080 --> 01:16:50,080
Speaker 1: but I wanted to throughout you but you talk about

1490
01:16:50,080 --> 01:16:54,160
Speaker 1: military parallels. So you get into armaments, um, the arms race,

1491
01:16:54,560 --> 01:16:57,920
Speaker 1: but there's one, there's one that doesn't go towards bigger, bigger, bigger,

1492
01:16:58,520 --> 01:17:03,840
Speaker 1: And you talk about, uh, projectile points. Can you tell

1493
01:17:03,840 --> 01:17:07,720
Speaker 1: everyone about? So I can't remember where it's it's it's

1494
01:17:07,960 --> 01:17:10,479
Speaker 1: like I'm losing myself now, Like I can't remember what

1495
01:17:10,560 --> 01:17:13,080
Speaker 1: example you brought up that got you to write about

1496
01:17:13,760 --> 01:17:17,160
Speaker 1: Clovis points and full time, I am a sucker for history.

1497
01:17:17,360 --> 01:17:19,320
Speaker 1: I love the past. I love the past. When I

1498
01:17:19,360 --> 01:17:21,920
Speaker 1: find a fossil and I realized I'm looking at something

1499
01:17:21,960 --> 01:17:25,160
Speaker 1: that's a snapshot from something way in the past. We

1500
01:17:25,280 --> 01:17:27,439
Speaker 1: just got back from taking our kids two weeks in Europe.

1501
01:17:27,479 --> 01:17:29,639
Speaker 1: I mean, I was blown away by POMPEII. The whole

1502
01:17:29,680 --> 01:17:32,960
Speaker 1: idea of walking around and looking at the mosaics in

1503
01:17:33,040 --> 01:17:36,320
Speaker 1: a bathroom of somebody's house from a thousand years ago.

1504
01:17:36,439 --> 01:17:38,920
Speaker 1: Just I mean, I get a rush. It's a palpable

1505
01:17:39,160 --> 01:17:42,880
Speaker 1: endorphin rush. I love that feeling. And for me growing up,

1506
01:17:42,960 --> 01:17:45,559
Speaker 1: I used to find arrowheads in my neighbor's tobacco field

1507
01:17:45,600 --> 01:17:48,320
Speaker 1: in Tennessee, and after the rains, I would go walk

1508
01:17:48,360 --> 01:17:51,240
Speaker 1: through these fields and just look at the slopes of

1509
01:17:51,280 --> 01:17:53,240
Speaker 1: the dirt at the basis of the plants. Look for

1510
01:17:53,240 --> 01:17:55,720
Speaker 1: the little glisten of pieces of flint or absidian that

1511
01:17:55,760 --> 01:17:58,639
Speaker 1: we're coming out of the dirt. And there's this feeling

1512
01:17:58,680 --> 01:18:00,599
Speaker 1: I don't have. Some people get it, some people don't.

1513
01:18:00,640 --> 01:18:01,920
Speaker 1: I don't know how to describe it. But if I

1514
01:18:01,920 --> 01:18:03,680
Speaker 1: pick up an arrowhead and hold it, and I'm the

1515
01:18:03,720 --> 01:18:07,200
Speaker 1: first person to touch that since the person that made it,

1516
01:18:07,400 --> 01:18:09,559
Speaker 1: and those things can be three, four or five, ten

1517
01:18:09,680 --> 01:18:11,640
Speaker 1: thousand years old, depending on where you are and what

1518
01:18:11,680 --> 01:18:13,759
Speaker 1: they are. If it's Clovis, it could be fifteen thousand

1519
01:18:13,840 --> 01:18:18,240
Speaker 1: years old. That's this priceless moment of touching the past.

1520
01:18:18,320 --> 01:18:19,880
Speaker 1: And I used to get a kick out of that

1521
01:18:19,960 --> 01:18:23,000
Speaker 1: from his I mean basically from when I could walk onward.

1522
01:18:23,520 --> 01:18:25,479
Speaker 1: I love that history. And so for me, when I

1523
01:18:25,520 --> 01:18:27,120
Speaker 1: had a chance to look at all these weapons, to

1524
01:18:27,120 --> 01:18:31,120
Speaker 1: go back and look at arrowheads and really think about what,

1525
01:18:31,680 --> 01:18:35,040
Speaker 1: you know, what kinds of processes, agents of selection sort

1526
01:18:35,040 --> 01:18:37,760
Speaker 1: of shaped the evolution of the form of these arrowheads.

1527
01:18:38,600 --> 01:18:40,720
Speaker 1: It was it was a fun, fun digression. But you

1528
01:18:40,720 --> 01:18:42,840
Speaker 1: brought it up in the context of them evolving to

1529
01:18:42,880 --> 01:18:45,360
Speaker 1: be smaller that rather than larger, And I think it's

1530
01:18:45,360 --> 01:18:47,920
Speaker 1: a really good parallel. I've tried to say it already

1531
01:18:47,920 --> 01:18:52,759
Speaker 1: in this interview. Most of the time animal weapons aren't big.

1532
01:18:53,200 --> 01:18:56,160
Speaker 1: Most animals don't have an enormous racks sticking on the

1533
01:18:56,160 --> 01:18:58,439
Speaker 1: top o coffee table fused to the top of their head.

1534
01:18:58,479 --> 01:19:01,840
Speaker 1: Most species, it's not worth it. It's too expensive, it's

1535
01:19:01,880 --> 01:19:04,920
Speaker 1: too awkward. Why the hell would you do something like that?

1536
01:19:05,320 --> 01:19:07,000
Speaker 1: And so most of the time it's not worth it.

1537
01:19:07,080 --> 01:19:10,599
Speaker 1: We talked today about the rare circumstances where the stars

1538
01:19:10,640 --> 01:19:12,480
Speaker 1: line up and all of a sudden, in one population

1539
01:19:12,479 --> 01:19:14,160
Speaker 1: of one species, it is worth it, and you go

1540
01:19:14,240 --> 01:19:17,519
Speaker 1: off on this trajectory. But the arrowheads are a really nice,

1541
01:19:17,560 --> 01:19:20,599
Speaker 1: clear illustration of a of a more typical situation where

1542
01:19:20,600 --> 01:19:22,920
Speaker 1: it's not worth it to get really big, and it

1543
01:19:23,000 --> 01:19:25,840
Speaker 1: illustrates the point that weapons are shaped by costs and benefits.

1544
01:19:25,920 --> 01:19:30,640
Speaker 1: And so with a with a projectile point, how do

1545
01:19:30,680 --> 01:19:32,519
Speaker 1: I where do I start? So so what I did

1546
01:19:32,560 --> 01:19:34,439
Speaker 1: is I picked up a literature that it looked at

1547
01:19:34,520 --> 01:19:37,240
Speaker 1: the so called evolution of projectile points in North America

1548
01:19:37,400 --> 01:19:39,840
Speaker 1: from you know, the earliest people that we think came

1549
01:19:39,880 --> 01:19:42,200
Speaker 1: across the Bearing Street, and these were the Clovis people,

1550
01:19:42,200 --> 01:19:45,240
Speaker 1: and the fulsome people's all the way through to you know,

1551
01:19:45,280 --> 01:19:49,280
Speaker 1: effectively that the colonization from Western Europeans and sort of

1552
01:19:49,280 --> 01:19:52,480
Speaker 1: the end of that era. And they have beautiful sequences

1553
01:19:52,520 --> 01:19:55,559
Speaker 1: of these projectile points through time, even from within the

1554
01:19:55,600 --> 01:19:58,200
Speaker 1: same areas. You can look sort of over time and

1555
01:19:58,320 --> 01:20:01,240
Speaker 1: how the technology changed the fla making patterns, the shapes,

1556
01:20:01,280 --> 01:20:04,040
Speaker 1: the sizes, and what they found is that the points

1557
01:20:04,040 --> 01:20:06,640
Speaker 1: got smaller. So if you go way back to the

1558
01:20:06,640 --> 01:20:10,080
Speaker 1: Clovised time period, they were using these primarily to hunt

1559
01:20:10,160 --> 01:20:13,160
Speaker 1: things like Columbian mammoths, and so we found that we

1560
01:20:13,479 --> 01:20:16,880
Speaker 1: they found the points almost always in association with mammoth kills.

1561
01:20:16,880 --> 01:20:19,840
Speaker 1: They were pretty confident that that was a major source

1562
01:20:19,840 --> 01:20:22,599
Speaker 1: of calories for these people. And if you're gonna try

1563
01:20:22,640 --> 01:20:25,479
Speaker 1: to puncture through the hide of something that's thick and

1564
01:20:25,600 --> 01:20:28,439
Speaker 1: that big, you need a big point. And there's some

1565
01:20:28,439 --> 01:20:30,800
Speaker 1: pretty tight physical constraints. I brought one that we can

1566
01:20:30,840 --> 01:20:34,519
Speaker 1: hold and look at pretty tight physical constraints on a

1567
01:20:34,640 --> 01:20:39,920
Speaker 1: napped stone projectile point that they have. You have to

1568
01:20:39,960 --> 01:20:42,120
Speaker 1: have a point that's tailored to the size of the

1569
01:20:42,120 --> 01:20:44,519
Speaker 1: shaft of the spear. It has to be about one

1570
01:20:44,560 --> 01:20:47,240
Speaker 1: and a half times the diameter of the shaft of

1571
01:20:47,240 --> 01:20:50,559
Speaker 1: the spear. If the points too narrow, then when it

1572
01:20:50,640 --> 01:20:53,639
Speaker 1: pierces the hide, it doesn't create a slit that's big

1573
01:20:53,720 --> 01:20:55,680
Speaker 1: enough to allow the shaft of the spear to go in,

1574
01:20:55,720 --> 01:20:57,519
Speaker 1: so it hits. It goes in like an inch and

1575
01:20:57,600 --> 01:21:02,599
Speaker 1: it stops. So longer wider blade cuts a bigger gash

1576
01:21:02,680 --> 01:21:05,360
Speaker 1: slice and it creates an opening that lets the shaft

1577
01:21:05,400 --> 01:21:07,880
Speaker 1: of the spear go into the animal. But if you

1578
01:21:07,880 --> 01:21:10,400
Speaker 1: make them too wide, it's brittle and they snap. So

1579
01:21:10,479 --> 01:21:12,439
Speaker 1: you have this sort of you know, the sort of

1580
01:21:12,520 --> 01:21:16,080
Speaker 1: tension between points that are too too small for your

1581
01:21:16,080 --> 01:21:18,120
Speaker 1: shaft of your spear and points that are too wide

1582
01:21:18,120 --> 01:21:20,280
Speaker 1: and they break. And the happy mediums about one and

1583
01:21:20,320 --> 01:21:23,080
Speaker 1: a half times, so we know the early Clovis this

1584
01:21:23,120 --> 01:21:26,400
Speaker 1: isn't Clovis, but they were big, big points with really

1585
01:21:26,479 --> 01:21:29,640
Speaker 1: thick shafted spears that they needed to puncture through the

1586
01:21:29,720 --> 01:21:32,960
Speaker 1: high of the mammoth. But those were very expensive points

1587
01:21:33,000 --> 01:21:35,360
Speaker 1: to make. It was hard to find pieces of obsidian

1588
01:21:35,400 --> 01:21:39,080
Speaker 1: without imperfections in it that would allow you to nap

1589
01:21:39,120 --> 01:21:41,000
Speaker 1: a point that was like you know, some of them

1590
01:21:41,000 --> 01:21:44,280
Speaker 1: were like six ten inches long, and it took a

1591
01:21:44,320 --> 01:21:46,479
Speaker 1: spectacular amount of skill to be able to pull that

1592
01:21:46,560 --> 01:21:48,439
Speaker 1: off without breaking these things. And then you had to

1593
01:21:48,479 --> 01:21:50,760
Speaker 1: carry the spears and the points with you everywhere you went.

1594
01:21:50,840 --> 01:21:53,280
Speaker 1: These were nomadic people. They're carrying everything with them everywhere

1595
01:21:53,320 --> 01:21:56,160
Speaker 1: they go. By some estimates, they'd moved two hundred miles

1596
01:21:56,160 --> 01:21:58,559
Speaker 1: in a year. You're carrying everything with you, so big

1597
01:21:58,600 --> 01:22:01,559
Speaker 1: spears are heavy. Is long as you're getting things like mammoths,

1598
01:22:01,560 --> 01:22:03,680
Speaker 1: it's worth it. The benefits of the big weapons are

1599
01:22:03,720 --> 01:22:05,920
Speaker 1: you can take down the huge prey feture people. It's

1600
01:22:05,920 --> 01:22:09,080
Speaker 1: a great thing. But the mammoths went extinct and they

1601
01:22:09,120 --> 01:22:11,800
Speaker 1: had to shift from mammoth to smaller species. The next

1602
01:22:11,800 --> 01:22:14,160
Speaker 1: one was the bison antiquois, which I think you've talked

1603
01:22:14,200 --> 01:22:17,439
Speaker 1: about in some of years of big bison but smaller

1604
01:22:17,479 --> 01:22:20,880
Speaker 1: than a mammoth, and so the shafts were overkilled. Suddenly

1605
01:22:20,920 --> 01:22:23,160
Speaker 1: it wasn't worth it to carry these huge, heavy spears

1606
01:22:23,200 --> 01:22:25,960
Speaker 1: and to make these really really hard to make points.

1607
01:22:26,000 --> 01:22:29,200
Speaker 1: So they started making smaller points that were better fit

1608
01:22:29,400 --> 01:22:31,679
Speaker 1: to the shaft sizes that they needed on the spears

1609
01:22:31,720 --> 01:22:34,759
Speaker 1: for the bison. And then when the bison antiquis went extinct,

1610
01:22:34,760 --> 01:22:37,320
Speaker 1: they shifted down again to big horn sheep into the

1611
01:22:37,320 --> 01:22:41,280
Speaker 1: modern American bison, and each time they shifted to smaller prey,

1612
01:22:41,520 --> 01:22:43,760
Speaker 1: they immediately got rid of the big stuff because it

1613
01:22:43,760 --> 01:22:46,120
Speaker 1: was too expensive to make, too expensive to carry, and

1614
01:22:46,160 --> 01:22:48,800
Speaker 1: they scaled down and got smaller and smaller until they

1615
01:22:48,840 --> 01:22:51,160
Speaker 1: had shaft sizes and point sizes that worked for the

1616
01:22:51,200 --> 01:22:53,679
Speaker 1: current prey. And then all that ended when they invented

1617
01:22:53,720 --> 01:22:56,520
Speaker 1: the bow and arrow, because suddenly you had a fundamentally

1618
01:22:56,520 --> 01:22:59,439
Speaker 1: different sort of projectile propulsion system and you could get

1619
01:22:59,439 --> 01:23:01,759
Speaker 1: by with really tiny points. And from that point forward,

1620
01:23:01,800 --> 01:23:04,160
Speaker 1: nobody wanted to carry the big stuff. It was too expensive,

1621
01:23:04,200 --> 01:23:08,080
Speaker 1: too heavy. They all switched to really lightweight, portable bone

1622
01:23:08,200 --> 01:23:11,439
Speaker 1: arrow technologies. So is that is that what you That?

1623
01:23:11,520 --> 01:23:16,160
Speaker 1: I got too far? But it's a nice illustration of

1624
01:23:16,200 --> 01:23:19,640
Speaker 1: costs and benefits that the big weapons were worth the

1625
01:23:19,720 --> 01:23:22,240
Speaker 1: price when the prey was really big and you could

1626
01:23:22,320 --> 01:23:24,240
Speaker 1: use them on bison, But when that prey was gone,

1627
01:23:24,600 --> 01:23:26,920
Speaker 1: it wasn't worth the price to make a big weapon,

1628
01:23:27,000 --> 01:23:30,000
Speaker 1: so you downsized it to something that was cheaper, and

1629
01:23:30,040 --> 01:23:32,559
Speaker 1: then you downsize it again it's something that was even cheaper.

1630
01:23:32,800 --> 01:23:35,360
Speaker 1: There's this sort of tension tug, a war between costs

1631
01:23:35,360 --> 01:23:37,800
Speaker 1: and benefits, and once the big prey were gone, the

1632
01:23:37,840 --> 01:23:41,400
Speaker 1: benefits weren't as big. So it's it ratcheted down to

1633
01:23:41,439 --> 01:23:44,599
Speaker 1: a smaller size. Explain your view on or not your view,

1634
01:23:44,640 --> 01:23:46,919
Speaker 1: but your insights how you want to put it into.

1635
01:23:48,280 --> 01:23:52,160
Speaker 1: Where we've looked, like in recent decades with our military,

1636
01:23:52,479 --> 01:23:55,960
Speaker 1: and how we imagined military might and how we would

1637
01:23:56,000 --> 01:24:01,080
Speaker 1: exercise military might, and where current lee Who is the

1638
01:24:01,439 --> 01:24:05,000
Speaker 1: sneak strategy, who's the beatle that tunnels who tunnels in

1639
01:24:05,120 --> 01:24:09,479
Speaker 1: and comes up through the floor? That one I can answer.

1640
01:24:09,840 --> 01:24:13,000
Speaker 1: So so step back a second and we okay, in time,

1641
01:24:13,120 --> 01:24:15,360
Speaker 1: I want to go out. Okay, so step back a second.

1642
01:24:15,360 --> 01:24:16,720
Speaker 1: I want to I want to make one thing clear.

1643
01:24:16,800 --> 01:24:20,040
Speaker 1: We've been talking about evolution of animal populations and winners

1644
01:24:20,040 --> 01:24:23,479
Speaker 1: and losers and sexual selection. In something like cariboo or elk,

1645
01:24:23,880 --> 01:24:28,040
Speaker 1: it's all about reproduction because the males that win, which

1646
01:24:28,040 --> 01:24:31,519
Speaker 1: presumably are the studs with the best antlers, the best condition,

1647
01:24:31,560 --> 01:24:34,080
Speaker 1: they win the harems, they get access to the most females.

1648
01:24:34,720 --> 01:24:39,000
Speaker 1: They win because they sire more offspring and they produce

1649
01:24:39,080 --> 01:24:41,160
Speaker 1: more of the kids in the next generation, and those

1650
01:24:41,240 --> 01:24:43,919
Speaker 1: kids carry the antlers because the way that the antlers

1651
01:24:43,920 --> 01:24:48,240
Speaker 1: are copied is through producing more elk. The winners have

1652
01:24:48,360 --> 01:24:51,400
Speaker 1: more kids, and the currency of success is numbers of offspring.

1653
01:24:52,040 --> 01:24:54,360
Speaker 1: When you talk about military weapons is different. We're not

1654
01:24:54,400 --> 01:24:57,160
Speaker 1: talking about who has kids, whether you have a better

1655
01:24:57,200 --> 01:25:00,320
Speaker 1: machine gun and more. We're not talking about reproduction they anymore.

1656
01:25:00,360 --> 01:25:03,479
Speaker 1: We're talking about manufactured techne But historically there's a lot

1657
01:25:03,520 --> 01:25:06,439
Speaker 1: of instances where it does control reproduction. There are the

1658
01:25:06,479 --> 01:25:08,840
Speaker 1: Middle Ages is a good one, and weapons are used.

1659
01:25:09,840 --> 01:25:12,960
Speaker 1: Definitely a factory production. But people find where like it

1660
01:25:13,000 --> 01:25:17,400
Speaker 1: seems like the male there will be a population and

1661
01:25:17,479 --> 01:25:21,280
Speaker 1: it will seem like there's a sudden, very radical shift

1662
01:25:22,000 --> 01:25:24,639
Speaker 1: and the population in the area from and you can

1663
01:25:24,680 --> 01:25:28,880
Speaker 1: see markers from a conquering invasion where it seems like

1664
01:25:30,000 --> 01:25:35,639
Speaker 1: want to go there. Yes, there seems with conquests, and

1665
01:25:36,200 --> 01:25:40,400
Speaker 1: there's no question that military leaders and political leaders tend,

1666
01:25:40,640 --> 01:25:43,599
Speaker 1: especially if you're including illegitimate offspring, to sire an awful

1667
01:25:43,640 --> 01:25:48,840
Speaker 1: of offspring. So reproduction. So reproduction, I'm not trying to

1668
01:25:48,840 --> 01:25:51,760
Speaker 1: say what you say is still the ultimate currency for

1669
01:25:51,800 --> 01:25:53,920
Speaker 1: success and us too. That will piss everybody off, But

1670
01:25:53,960 --> 01:25:55,960
Speaker 1: at the end of the day, you know, when you

1671
01:25:56,000 --> 01:25:58,840
Speaker 1: look a thousand generations from now, the people that are

1672
01:25:58,880 --> 01:26:01,680
Speaker 1: gonna be out there are going to be offspring from

1673
01:26:01,680 --> 01:26:04,880
Speaker 1: people that were here today. So so yes, reproduction still matters.

1674
01:26:04,880 --> 01:26:06,120
Speaker 1: But what I'm trying to say is, if I want

1675
01:26:06,120 --> 01:26:08,599
Speaker 1: to understand this arrowhead, or I want to look at

1676
01:26:08,640 --> 01:26:12,680
Speaker 1: airplane technology or a tank technology or missile technology, it

1677
01:26:12,720 --> 01:26:15,320
Speaker 1: really doesn't matter how many kids the person that designed

1678
01:26:15,360 --> 01:26:17,240
Speaker 1: it has or how many kids the person that flew

1679
01:26:17,320 --> 01:26:21,160
Speaker 1: it has. That's a separate question. So yes, military issues

1680
01:26:21,160 --> 01:26:23,800
Speaker 1: are associated with dying and with breeding, but we're not

1681
01:26:23,880 --> 01:26:25,400
Speaker 1: that's not what we're talking about. We're talking about the

1682
01:26:25,400 --> 01:26:28,000
Speaker 1: missile or the tank or the arrowhead. And when you're

1683
01:26:28,000 --> 01:26:30,240
Speaker 1: talking about a weapon, or take a machine gun, you

1684
01:26:30,240 --> 01:26:33,000
Speaker 1: know in a K forty seven that is a thing there,

1685
01:26:33,080 --> 01:26:35,559
Speaker 1: there are copies made in a factory. They're cranking out

1686
01:26:35,560 --> 01:26:38,200
Speaker 1: a K forty seven's. The factory is making more a

1687
01:26:38,320 --> 01:26:40,479
Speaker 1: K for it. That's not me having kids, that's the

1688
01:26:40,560 --> 01:26:42,640
Speaker 1: factory making more a K forty sevens. But if I

1689
01:26:42,680 --> 01:26:45,160
Speaker 1: look at the population of submachine guns out there or

1690
01:26:45,200 --> 01:26:47,720
Speaker 1: assault rifles out there, I could go out there, just

1691
01:26:47,800 --> 01:26:49,759
Speaker 1: like I could say how many dark mice and white

1692
01:26:49,760 --> 01:26:52,160
Speaker 1: mice are out there in my population, I could say

1693
01:26:52,240 --> 01:26:54,639
Speaker 1: how many m sixteen. How many A K forty sevens.

1694
01:26:54,640 --> 01:26:57,200
Speaker 1: If I want to characterize the population of assault rifles

1695
01:26:57,200 --> 01:27:00,280
Speaker 1: on this planet right now, I could probably find fifty

1696
01:27:00,640 --> 01:27:02,240
Speaker 1: different models out there. A few of them are gonna

1697
01:27:02,280 --> 01:27:04,080
Speaker 1: be really rare. Some of them, like the a K

1698
01:27:04,200 --> 01:27:07,320
Speaker 1: forty seven, are going to be ridiculously common. I could

1699
01:27:07,320 --> 01:27:10,840
Speaker 1: talk about variation in the weapon out there now, and

1700
01:27:10,960 --> 01:27:13,439
Speaker 1: realistically that's going to change. Some models are going to

1701
01:27:13,520 --> 01:27:16,000
Speaker 1: get picked up and spread and they're gonna become more common,

1702
01:27:16,000 --> 01:27:18,120
Speaker 1: and they're gonna get adjusted and developed and get better

1703
01:27:18,120 --> 01:27:20,719
Speaker 1: and better over time. Others are gonna disappear. They're too clunky,

1704
01:27:20,760 --> 01:27:22,800
Speaker 1: they jam under you know, the sand gets in them,

1705
01:27:22,800 --> 01:27:25,759
Speaker 1: they don't work. Nobody wants them, they're too expensive. Nobody

1706
01:27:25,800 --> 01:27:28,880
Speaker 1: wants to produce them for their militaries. So the weapons

1707
01:27:28,920 --> 01:27:33,200
Speaker 1: are going to change over time, and it's a turnover process,

1708
01:27:33,240 --> 01:27:35,760
Speaker 1: winners and losers. It's exactly the same as what we're

1709
01:27:35,760 --> 01:27:38,240
Speaker 1: talking about with antlers or beetles, but it's not tied

1710
01:27:38,280 --> 01:27:40,680
Speaker 1: to reproduction. It's tied to who wants this. You know

1711
01:27:40,720 --> 01:27:43,759
Speaker 1: which models are being being picked up, manufactured and spreading,

1712
01:27:44,120 --> 01:27:47,240
Speaker 1: and which mant models are being discontinued because they suck,

1713
01:27:47,320 --> 01:27:49,640
Speaker 1: or they're not cost effective, or nobody wants them, and

1714
01:27:49,720 --> 01:27:51,960
Speaker 1: so you still have winners and losers. You can talk

1715
01:27:52,000 --> 01:27:54,200
Speaker 1: about the technology. It will change over time. If you

1716
01:27:54,240 --> 01:27:56,880
Speaker 1: look at the assault rifle, over the last fifty years,

1717
01:27:56,880 --> 01:28:00,280
Speaker 1: it's changed. It's better now, it's more efficient. Now. People

1718
01:28:00,360 --> 01:28:02,639
Speaker 1: have been playing around with it, trying to change the design.

1719
01:28:02,960 --> 01:28:05,720
Speaker 1: Sometimes it's by accident. Sometimes their engineers trying to make

1720
01:28:05,760 --> 01:28:08,360
Speaker 1: it more efficient, make the cartridges work better, make it

1721
01:28:08,400 --> 01:28:12,000
Speaker 1: more cost effective, make it more portable. People are tweaking

1722
01:28:12,000 --> 01:28:14,040
Speaker 1: it and playing around. It's still in a K forty seven,

1723
01:28:14,520 --> 01:28:17,080
Speaker 1: but they're playing with it to try to make it better.

1724
01:28:17,240 --> 01:28:19,680
Speaker 1: That's variation. That's just like mutations cropping up in a

1725
01:28:19,680 --> 01:28:22,280
Speaker 1: mouse population making them a little faster, a little thicker,

1726
01:28:22,320 --> 01:28:25,200
Speaker 1: a little lighter. You know, there's variation, and some of

1727
01:28:25,200 --> 01:28:27,439
Speaker 1: it sucks, it doesn't work at all, it's gone. Some

1728
01:28:27,479 --> 01:28:29,599
Speaker 1: of it works really well. People grab it and run

1729
01:28:29,640 --> 01:28:33,719
Speaker 1: with it. That's evolution. So without as a backdrop for weapons,

1730
01:28:34,400 --> 01:28:36,360
Speaker 1: now we can come back full circle and say, well,

1731
01:28:36,360 --> 01:28:40,559
Speaker 1: when would weapons particular technologies get caught up in an

1732
01:28:40,640 --> 01:28:42,200
Speaker 1: arms race where all of a sudden you need bigger

1733
01:28:42,200 --> 01:28:45,479
Speaker 1: and bigger and bigger and bigger, and historically there's really

1734
01:28:45,520 --> 01:28:48,719
Speaker 1: good sort of accounts of early weapons technologies and where

1735
01:28:48,720 --> 01:28:50,759
Speaker 1: this happens. So if you go back to the Romans

1736
01:28:50,760 --> 01:28:54,000
Speaker 1: and the Greeks and and the Syrian time periods Mediterranean,

1737
01:28:54,640 --> 01:28:57,320
Speaker 1: there were galleys that were these order you know, the

1738
01:28:57,360 --> 01:28:59,920
Speaker 1: try reams. There were these ships that were rowing soldier

1739
01:29:00,160 --> 01:29:03,840
Speaker 1: back and forth for many many years, like a thousand years.

1740
01:29:03,880 --> 01:29:08,120
Speaker 1: These ships were called penticonters. They had fifty rowers and

1741
01:29:08,520 --> 01:29:10,800
Speaker 1: there was nothing special about them. They just carried troops

1742
01:29:10,800 --> 01:29:13,439
Speaker 1: from place to place. They scrambled about on the ocean.

1743
01:29:13,600 --> 01:29:16,240
Speaker 1: They weren't actually weapons. They were just boats that took

1744
01:29:16,280 --> 01:29:19,880
Speaker 1: people along the shorelines to transport troops. For a thousand years,

1745
01:29:19,920 --> 01:29:22,240
Speaker 1: nothing changed. All the countries had the same basic ship.

1746
01:29:22,320 --> 01:29:26,200
Speaker 1: The design was pretty much indistinguishable. And then somebody invents

1747
01:29:26,200 --> 01:29:29,800
Speaker 1: a battering ram boom, just like that new technology. It's

1748
01:29:29,880 --> 01:29:31,519
Speaker 1: just it's like a beetle horn. It's a thing that

1749
01:29:31,560 --> 01:29:33,559
Speaker 1: sticks off the front of the boat. But oh my god,

1750
01:29:33,600 --> 01:29:36,200
Speaker 1: from that point forward, all the rules were written because

1751
01:29:36,200 --> 01:29:38,960
Speaker 1: now you could take your ship smashing into somebody else

1752
01:29:38,960 --> 01:29:42,400
Speaker 1: and saying k his his ship. And so overnight they went

1753
01:29:42,439 --> 01:29:47,120
Speaker 1: from shuttling people like a scramble to hitting another opponent

1754
01:29:47,160 --> 01:29:49,600
Speaker 1: ship one on one in a duel. That's that's the

1755
01:29:49,640 --> 01:29:52,400
Speaker 1: same trigger that works in animals. That's the spark. All

1756
01:29:52,439 --> 01:29:55,320
Speaker 1: of a sudden, whoever's got the fastest ship wins. Now

1757
01:29:55,360 --> 01:29:57,240
Speaker 1: you've got an arms race because a bigger ship, of

1758
01:29:57,320 --> 01:29:59,920
Speaker 1: faster ship wins in that kind of one on one encountering.

1759
01:30:00,280 --> 01:30:03,240
Speaker 1: Just like that, after nothing happening for a thousand years,

1760
01:30:03,400 --> 01:30:07,400
Speaker 1: overnight these technologies exploded. As people started making bigger and

1761
01:30:07,400 --> 01:30:10,639
Speaker 1: bigger and bigger ships. They started getting longer until they buckled.

1762
01:30:10,880 --> 01:30:14,759
Speaker 1: They started adding another row of rowers, so buyreams came along,

1763
01:30:14,840 --> 01:30:17,639
Speaker 1: than try reams, than five six is. They got bigger

1764
01:30:17,640 --> 01:30:20,519
Speaker 1: and bigger and bigger until these ships were monstrosities that

1765
01:30:20,560 --> 01:30:24,080
Speaker 1: were effectively useless. But the point is a change in

1766
01:30:24,160 --> 01:30:27,720
Speaker 1: technology caused the weapons the ships to line up one

1767
01:30:27,760 --> 01:30:29,920
Speaker 1: on one in a duel, exactly like the dung beetles

1768
01:30:29,920 --> 01:30:32,240
Speaker 1: in a tunnel. Suddenly they're facing each other one on one,

1769
01:30:32,240 --> 01:30:35,000
Speaker 1: and that was it. You can look at various periods

1770
01:30:35,000 --> 01:30:37,719
Speaker 1: throughout military history and the same kind of a process

1771
01:30:37,760 --> 01:30:40,479
Speaker 1: has happened. The Cold War was the most precedent and

1772
01:30:40,520 --> 01:30:42,920
Speaker 1: sort of alarming of those and in that case it

1773
01:30:43,000 --> 01:30:45,880
Speaker 1: happened at the level of nation states and political landscapes,

1774
01:30:46,120 --> 01:30:49,639
Speaker 1: but you effectively had the US and the USS are

1775
01:30:49,680 --> 01:30:52,639
Speaker 1: the superpowers that were still standing after the Second World War,

1776
01:30:52,840 --> 01:30:54,559
Speaker 1: going toe to toe and the scene that's a one

1777
01:30:54,600 --> 01:30:57,360
Speaker 1: on one duel, and that sparked an arms race that

1778
01:30:57,439 --> 01:31:03,120
Speaker 1: led to unbelievably appid development of missiles, aircraft, tanks, nuclear

1779
01:31:03,160 --> 01:31:05,760
Speaker 1: weapon everything, I mean, all the weapons technologies that we

1780
01:31:05,800 --> 01:31:09,080
Speaker 1: had sort of got folded into that race. And and

1781
01:31:09,120 --> 01:31:10,800
Speaker 1: if you want to go into that, it turns out

1782
01:31:10,800 --> 01:31:13,200
Speaker 1: the behavior of the nations during that time period was

1783
01:31:13,280 --> 01:31:17,720
Speaker 1: exactly like elk or fiddler crabs or beetles. Those two

1784
01:31:17,800 --> 01:31:21,759
Speaker 1: nations didn't go nuclear and all doubt full on battle.

1785
01:31:21,880 --> 01:31:26,880
Speaker 1: They sparred. They had little conflagrations in Afghanistan and Korea

1786
01:31:26,880 --> 01:31:29,840
Speaker 1: and Vietnam where they sort of pushed each other a

1787
01:31:29,920 --> 01:31:32,080
Speaker 1: little bit. They used conventional weapons, they didn't use the

1788
01:31:32,160 --> 01:31:35,280
Speaker 1: nuclear or the weapons of mass destruction. They sized each

1789
01:31:35,280 --> 01:31:37,920
Speaker 1: other up and then back down again. That's exactly what

1790
01:31:38,120 --> 01:31:40,920
Speaker 1: animals do in that kind of situation. You know what's

1791
01:31:40,960 --> 01:31:43,519
Speaker 1: interesting about when we think about the parallels and then

1792
01:31:43,560 --> 01:31:47,599
Speaker 1: the things that don't line up. Would be like with

1793
01:31:48,760 --> 01:31:53,080
Speaker 1: in World War Two, that the US becoming the people

1794
01:31:53,120 --> 01:31:56,360
Speaker 1: who developed that refers to develop the atomic bomb, would

1795
01:31:56,360 --> 01:31:59,280
Speaker 1: be as though, I mean, we started that war not

1796
01:31:59,439 --> 01:32:02,400
Speaker 1: a super power, right, but by the time we came

1797
01:32:02,400 --> 01:32:04,280
Speaker 1: out and we were emerging as it would be like

1798
01:32:04,320 --> 01:32:07,599
Speaker 1: if a giant. It wouldn't be that the hornless beetle

1799
01:32:08,320 --> 01:32:12,160
Speaker 1: suddenly came up. It would be like the horned beetle.

1800
01:32:13,120 --> 01:32:16,040
Speaker 1: The wolf with the big bad horn was like, oh

1801
01:32:16,160 --> 01:32:21,600
Speaker 1: and guess what else? I also have fangs. You know,

1802
01:32:22,200 --> 01:32:24,519
Speaker 1: it's a little bit like we we upset our, we

1803
01:32:24,680 --> 01:32:27,880
Speaker 1: upped our, we trumped our own action by developing the

1804
01:32:27,880 --> 01:32:31,320
Speaker 1: atomic weapon, and then thereby making in some in some degrees,

1805
01:32:31,439 --> 01:32:36,280
Speaker 1: made this man Japan this naval superpower. It made that

1806
01:32:36,960 --> 01:32:39,960
Speaker 1: naval might irrelevant because we had the atomic bomb. It

1807
01:32:40,000 --> 01:32:42,760
Speaker 1: rewrote the rules, completely changed the game. But that's again

1808
01:32:42,800 --> 01:32:46,799
Speaker 1: the arms races ratchet up, they escalate, so the simplest

1809
01:32:46,840 --> 01:32:48,559
Speaker 1: way to think of it as beatles again. And you

1810
01:32:48,560 --> 01:32:51,280
Speaker 1: know it got or an antelope picture. You've got seven

1811
01:32:51,280 --> 01:32:53,600
Speaker 1: inch horns out there, and suddenly somebody comes along with

1812
01:32:53,640 --> 01:32:56,680
Speaker 1: eight inch horns and they start winning. Pretty soon all

1813
01:32:56,720 --> 01:32:59,639
Speaker 1: their kids grandkids, great grandkids. Pretty soon everybody's got eight

1814
01:32:59,640 --> 01:33:02,120
Speaker 1: inch horns and that's not enough. And now somebody pops

1815
01:33:02,160 --> 01:33:03,960
Speaker 1: up with a nine inch horn, and and so in

1816
01:33:03,960 --> 01:33:07,800
Speaker 1: a sense, the sizes of these weapons ratchet and steps.

1817
01:33:07,840 --> 01:33:10,800
Speaker 1: But you can also have sort of fundamentally new technologies

1818
01:33:10,840 --> 01:33:13,000
Speaker 1: that pop up on the scene that just completely rewrite

1819
01:33:13,040 --> 01:33:15,719
Speaker 1: the rules. And so arms races can go in lots

1820
01:33:15,720 --> 01:33:18,160
Speaker 1: of directions, and usually they're additive. So you still need

1821
01:33:18,200 --> 01:33:20,080
Speaker 1: the first weapon, but now you need the second one too,

1822
01:33:20,680 --> 01:33:23,240
Speaker 1: and I need the third. You need tanks and submarines

1823
01:33:23,439 --> 01:33:26,040
Speaker 1: and bombers and nuclear weapons. You know, it got more

1824
01:33:26,080 --> 01:33:29,120
Speaker 1: and more expensive because all these things were sort of compounded.

1825
01:33:29,240 --> 01:33:32,439
Speaker 1: But the nuclear weapon game that was that was like

1826
01:33:32,479 --> 01:33:37,000
Speaker 1: a spontaneous mutation that completely rewrote the rules because incontinental

1827
01:33:37,320 --> 01:33:41,040
Speaker 1: and had delivered with the ship. It was like the Indianapolis.

1828
01:33:41,080 --> 01:33:43,760
Speaker 1: You had like deliver it to the Pacific theater in

1829
01:33:43,800 --> 01:33:46,240
Speaker 1: a ship. You had to have a powerful air force

1830
01:33:46,920 --> 01:33:50,120
Speaker 1: to get the thing a field and put it where

1831
01:33:50,160 --> 01:33:51,920
Speaker 1: you want it. And so you're, like you said, it's

1832
01:33:51,920 --> 01:33:55,680
Speaker 1: like a ratcheting up because you're relying on all these capabilities.

1833
01:33:57,200 --> 01:34:00,599
Speaker 1: Because really you're assessing your capabilities against to your opponent,

1834
01:34:00,720 --> 01:34:03,080
Speaker 1: and they're constantly trying to do better at their capability.

1835
01:34:03,120 --> 01:34:05,400
Speaker 1: So every time they get a new technology, then they're up.

1836
01:34:05,400 --> 01:34:08,520
Speaker 1: Then there ahead of you, the races on to surpass them.

1837
01:34:08,560 --> 01:34:12,160
Speaker 1: It really ratchets into this vicious cycle that can lead

1838
01:34:12,520 --> 01:34:17,080
Speaker 1: out of control. So so where a new weapons, So

1839
01:34:17,160 --> 01:34:21,439
Speaker 1: where we are today? That the Cold War obviously, but

1840
01:34:21,600 --> 01:34:25,000
Speaker 1: the technologies are still out there. And one interesting sort

1841
01:34:25,040 --> 01:34:27,280
Speaker 1: of twist on that system is during the Cold War,

1842
01:34:27,880 --> 01:34:31,000
Speaker 1: the most expensive state of the art weapons, the ones

1843
01:34:31,040 --> 01:34:33,280
Speaker 1: that were the equivalent of the antlers in your elk

1844
01:34:33,360 --> 01:34:35,360
Speaker 1: or your cariboo or the horns and my beetles, were

1845
01:34:35,360 --> 01:34:38,439
Speaker 1: the nuclear weapons. Though that was the new technology. That

1846
01:34:38,560 --> 01:34:40,639
Speaker 1: was the one that was the most sophisticated, the most

1847
01:34:40,680 --> 01:34:44,160
Speaker 1: difficult to to actually generate. And then you had to

1848
01:34:44,160 --> 01:34:45,720
Speaker 1: have all, like you said, the delivery. You had to

1849
01:34:45,800 --> 01:34:49,080
Speaker 1: have the infrastructure to be able to deliver that, which

1850
01:34:49,120 --> 01:34:51,719
Speaker 1: took all the sensor nets, that took all the guidance systems,

1851
01:34:51,720 --> 01:34:54,479
Speaker 1: it took the whole space race was basically a cloak

1852
01:34:54,520 --> 01:34:57,240
Speaker 1: and you know, a facade for developing this will technology

1853
01:34:57,280 --> 01:35:00,200
Speaker 1: that could deliver nuclear weapons to an opponent. And so

1854
01:35:00,280 --> 01:35:03,280
Speaker 1: all of that stuff had to be there. Today, we're

1855
01:35:03,280 --> 01:35:06,000
Speaker 1: in a very different world now. We've got stockpiles of

1856
01:35:06,000 --> 01:35:08,760
Speaker 1: these nuclear weapons cached away in places that I hate

1857
01:35:08,800 --> 01:35:11,680
Speaker 1: to think about, that are sort of rotting away and

1858
01:35:11,720 --> 01:35:14,200
Speaker 1: there their diamond doesn't because we produced a shipload of

1859
01:35:14,240 --> 01:35:16,400
Speaker 1: them during the Cold War. So there's tons of nuclear

1860
01:35:16,439 --> 01:35:19,759
Speaker 1: warheads out there that's not that's not that expensive. In fact,

1861
01:35:20,320 --> 01:35:23,080
Speaker 1: it's not that inconceivable that just about anybody could get

1862
01:35:23,120 --> 01:35:25,599
Speaker 1: their hands on them. Seven or I can't remember how many,

1863
01:35:25,640 --> 01:35:28,559
Speaker 1: seven or eight countries now maybe more. A couple more

1864
01:35:28,560 --> 01:35:30,400
Speaker 1: on the horizon. There are a couple more on the horizon.

1865
01:35:30,760 --> 01:35:34,960
Speaker 1: The the the really expensive weapons, the ones that are

1866
01:35:35,000 --> 01:35:38,800
Speaker 1: the equivalent of antlers now are conventional weapons. There are

1867
01:35:38,800 --> 01:35:40,800
Speaker 1: things like the F thirty five strike fighter and the

1868
01:35:40,840 --> 01:35:44,880
Speaker 1: new Jail four class aircraft carrier. These things cost billions

1869
01:35:44,920 --> 01:35:47,800
Speaker 1: and billions of dollars to produce, and only a very

1870
01:35:47,840 --> 01:35:51,640
Speaker 1: small number of nations have the technology, the sophistication, the infrastructure,

1871
01:35:51,720 --> 01:35:54,800
Speaker 1: the trained personnel, that all the stuff you need to

1872
01:35:54,920 --> 01:35:59,200
Speaker 1: produce and maintain and use these weapons. So I mean,

1873
01:35:59,240 --> 01:36:01,000
Speaker 1: I had a chance to is it one of our

1874
01:36:01,080 --> 01:36:04,680
Speaker 1: nuclear aircraft carriers? A couple of months ago. Astounding experience

1875
01:36:04,760 --> 01:36:08,240
Speaker 1: looking at our operations in action in the Pacific. As

1876
01:36:08,240 --> 01:36:10,519
Speaker 1: we cycled through, they have the F thirty five strike

1877
01:36:10,600 --> 01:36:13,120
Speaker 1: fighters landing on a carrier for one of the first

1878
01:36:13,160 --> 01:36:14,880
Speaker 1: times ever on a carrier. I got to stand like

1879
01:36:14,920 --> 01:36:16,800
Speaker 1: as close as I am to you and watch these

1880
01:36:16,800 --> 01:36:20,480
Speaker 1: things come screaming down and catch the tailhook. These technologies

1881
01:36:20,479 --> 01:36:23,679
Speaker 1: are incredible. A helmet on an F thirty five costs

1882
01:36:23,680 --> 01:36:26,720
Speaker 1: half a million dollars. Every single bomb that they put

1883
01:36:26,800 --> 01:36:28,519
Speaker 1: on these things as a million dollars out of the gates.

1884
01:36:28,520 --> 01:36:31,080
Speaker 1: I mean, we're spending billions of dollars the nuclear triad,

1885
01:36:31,120 --> 01:36:33,839
Speaker 1: the infrastructure that we have is is trillions of dollars

1886
01:36:33,840 --> 01:36:36,400
Speaker 1: a year. And and so these are the state of

1887
01:36:36,400 --> 01:36:39,200
Speaker 1: the art weapons now. And you asked about the sneaky beatles.

1888
01:36:39,439 --> 01:36:42,679
Speaker 1: What's the cheater that we have to worry about. It's

1889
01:36:42,720 --> 01:36:45,439
Speaker 1: cyber hackers. I mean, it seems crazy, but we're spending

1890
01:36:45,720 --> 01:36:49,040
Speaker 1: billions of dollars on some astoundingly good time. I mean,

1891
01:36:49,080 --> 01:36:54,040
Speaker 1: I got these fighters are amazing, absolutely amazing. I don't

1892
01:36:54,040 --> 01:36:55,439
Speaker 1: know if any of you had a chance to see them.

1893
01:36:55,439 --> 01:36:57,080
Speaker 1: If you know much about the F thirty five, it

1894
01:36:57,200 --> 01:37:02,880
Speaker 1: is a supersonic, super maneuverable stealth fighter that the helmets.

1895
01:37:02,920 --> 01:37:04,800
Speaker 1: The reason the helmets cost half a million dollars on

1896
01:37:04,840 --> 01:37:07,760
Speaker 1: these things is they're completely integrated with sensor systems so

1897
01:37:07,800 --> 01:37:11,320
Speaker 1: that the movements of the pilots are tracked within the

1898
01:37:11,520 --> 01:37:14,439
Speaker 1: within the cockpit of the plane. So any direction the

1899
01:37:14,439 --> 01:37:18,200
Speaker 1: pilot looks, the direction they're looking is automatically integrated with

1900
01:37:18,240 --> 01:37:20,480
Speaker 1: sensors that are built into the skin of the aircraft.

1901
01:37:20,479 --> 01:37:22,960
Speaker 1: In that direction they're tracking the pupils of the pilot.

1902
01:37:23,520 --> 01:37:26,160
Speaker 1: And so they've got infrared sensors, they've got all the

1903
01:37:26,200 --> 01:37:30,679
Speaker 1: GPS stuff, they've got this the topographic maps, everything all overlaid.

1904
01:37:30,680 --> 01:37:32,519
Speaker 1: It's not even like there's a screen. The old ones

1905
01:37:32,560 --> 01:37:35,720
Speaker 1: had a heads up display screen. It's just there. They

1906
01:37:35,720 --> 01:37:38,479
Speaker 1: can look straight through their legs. They're crotched down the

1907
01:37:38,479 --> 01:37:40,920
Speaker 1: bottom of the plane. There's it's gone. It's nothing. They

1908
01:37:40,960 --> 01:37:43,360
Speaker 1: see all the way to the ground because it completely integrated.

1909
01:37:43,360 --> 01:37:46,719
Speaker 1: They've unobstructed three and sixty degree view all the time,

1910
01:37:47,120 --> 01:37:50,840
Speaker 1: heat sensor, everything all sort of overlaid into an integrative picture.

1911
01:37:50,840 --> 01:37:55,599
Speaker 1: It's amazing. But all of these technologies depend on software,

1912
01:37:56,439 --> 01:37:59,880
Speaker 1: so we're spending a fortune on these incredible technologies and

1913
01:38:00,040 --> 01:38:02,280
Speaker 1: they you know, we're the Boone and crocket ball right now.

1914
01:38:02,840 --> 01:38:04,559
Speaker 1: Those are the state of the our weapons and we

1915
01:38:04,640 --> 01:38:08,120
Speaker 1: really are safer because of them. They're amazing. But the

1916
01:38:08,160 --> 01:38:10,759
Speaker 1: sneaky little beetles sort of worming away from the sidelines

1917
01:38:10,840 --> 01:38:13,960
Speaker 1: or the hackers because if they can get past, we can't.

1918
01:38:14,160 --> 01:38:16,519
Speaker 1: Pilot can't fly these things without software. You can't land

1919
01:38:16,560 --> 01:38:19,880
Speaker 1: these planes without software that they literally can't handle the

1920
01:38:19,880 --> 01:38:23,160
Speaker 1: planes without the software because the planes can too maneuvers

1921
01:38:23,200 --> 01:38:25,760
Speaker 1: that are fast enough that the pilot would black out

1922
01:38:25,800 --> 01:38:28,400
Speaker 1: from the g forces. So they have to integrate whatever

1923
01:38:28,400 --> 01:38:31,360
Speaker 1: the pilot does with the stick with sort of built

1924
01:38:31,360 --> 01:38:36,160
Speaker 1: in sensor systems that that that interpret the pilot's movement

1925
01:38:36,520 --> 01:38:38,720
Speaker 1: in a way that doesn't cause the plane to do

1926
01:38:38,800 --> 01:38:41,679
Speaker 1: something that the blacks out the pilot. So you literally

1927
01:38:41,720 --> 01:38:44,280
Speaker 1: can't even go old fashioned and fly these things without

1928
01:38:44,280 --> 01:38:48,120
Speaker 1: the software that the aircraft carry. Was awesome. I got

1929
01:38:48,120 --> 01:38:49,800
Speaker 1: to talk to Captain, I got to talk to the

1930
01:38:49,880 --> 01:38:52,040
Speaker 1: first officer, I got to talk to the master chief,

1931
01:38:52,120 --> 01:38:54,240
Speaker 1: the cooks, I got to talk to people running the

1932
01:38:54,320 --> 01:38:56,559
Speaker 1: nuclear actors. I mean I got to meet anybody and everybody.

1933
01:38:56,600 --> 01:38:58,880
Speaker 1: They were awesome about letting us as a civilian go

1934
01:38:58,960 --> 01:39:02,280
Speaker 1: in and just look what was happening. But every single

1935
01:39:02,360 --> 01:39:04,920
Speaker 1: step of that operation is critically dependent on software. They

1936
01:39:04,920 --> 01:39:07,160
Speaker 1: can't control the nuclear reactor on the ship without software.

1937
01:39:07,200 --> 01:39:09,879
Speaker 1: They can't navigate without software. They can't control the positions

1938
01:39:09,880 --> 01:39:12,599
Speaker 1: of the planes without software. They can't orchestrate the landings

1939
01:39:12,600 --> 01:39:15,760
Speaker 1: and the takeoffs of the planes without software. The way

1940
01:39:15,760 --> 01:39:17,720
Speaker 1: that they communicate with all the rest of Norad and

1941
01:39:17,760 --> 01:39:21,919
Speaker 1: everything is all software. So so our vulnerability the flanks

1942
01:39:21,960 --> 01:39:25,280
Speaker 1: that we've got exposed right now is the firewalls on

1943
01:39:25,479 --> 01:39:28,320
Speaker 1: our software. And they know it. I mean, I'm not

1944
01:39:28,360 --> 01:39:30,719
Speaker 1: teaching telling them anything. Yes, I did get a chance

1945
01:39:30,720 --> 01:39:33,360
Speaker 1: to go to find d C and give a talk

1946
01:39:33,400 --> 01:39:35,120
Speaker 1: in front of the former director of the n s

1947
01:39:35,200 --> 01:39:37,400
Speaker 1: A and the CIA and all these top brass from

1948
01:39:37,400 --> 01:39:40,519
Speaker 1: the military about sneaky dung beetles and sneaky big horn

1949
01:39:40,560 --> 01:39:42,960
Speaker 1: sheep and salmon, actually telling them the parallels. But you know,

1950
01:39:43,000 --> 01:39:45,160
Speaker 1: I'm not teaching them anything. They don't know. They they

1951
01:39:45,160 --> 01:39:48,400
Speaker 1: are totally aware of this and and that's the new

1952
01:39:48,479 --> 01:39:51,360
Speaker 1: arms race. So when I was at this conference talking

1953
01:39:51,400 --> 01:39:54,439
Speaker 1: to these guys, they said, yeah, yeah, we've the Chinese

1954
01:39:54,479 --> 01:39:57,280
Speaker 1: have buildings full of people that are trying seven to

1955
01:39:57,320 --> 01:40:01,120
Speaker 1: hack into our systems, and we've buildings full of people

1956
01:40:01,160 --> 01:40:03,639
Speaker 1: that are hacking into theirs. And the ideas each side

1957
01:40:03,720 --> 01:40:06,799
Speaker 1: is trying to insert code. It's not just stealing trade secrets.

1958
01:40:06,840 --> 01:40:08,680
Speaker 1: So they could go build their own F thirty five,

1959
01:40:08,760 --> 01:40:11,320
Speaker 1: that would cost them a fortune. Why go build your

1960
01:40:11,360 --> 01:40:16,240
Speaker 1: own jet if you can insert code that renders ours useless.

1961
01:40:16,240 --> 01:40:19,120
Speaker 1: So so the idea that they're called zero day attacks

1962
01:40:19,200 --> 01:40:21,840
Speaker 1: is if they can insert code that sits, then we

1963
01:40:21,920 --> 01:40:24,000
Speaker 1: can't find it because it's not doing anything. It's just

1964
01:40:24,040 --> 01:40:26,040
Speaker 1: sitting there. So it's harder for us to tell that

1965
01:40:26,120 --> 01:40:29,800
Speaker 1: it's there until you know, zero day when they need it,

1966
01:40:29,840 --> 01:40:31,680
Speaker 1: they turn it on and they can take over our

1967
01:40:31,720 --> 01:40:34,680
Speaker 1: technologies and use it against us. That's the fear. We

1968
01:40:34,760 --> 01:40:38,200
Speaker 1: spend all the money, we produce the technologies, they hijack

1969
01:40:38,280 --> 01:40:40,720
Speaker 1: those technologies and use them against us. That is the

1970
01:40:40,800 --> 01:40:43,360
Speaker 1: ultimate game changer sneak strategy that we gotta worry about.

1971
01:40:43,520 --> 01:40:46,000
Speaker 1: But the military is on it, and their argument is

1972
01:40:46,040 --> 01:40:49,000
Speaker 1: they have so much infiltrating all their technologies that we

1973
01:40:49,040 --> 01:40:51,680
Speaker 1: can damn sure shut them down too. So so the

1974
01:40:51,720 --> 01:40:53,960
Speaker 1: general actually said this is the new arms race. It's

1975
01:40:54,040 --> 01:40:56,519
Speaker 1: like we're all sort of racing each other to who

1976
01:40:56,600 --> 01:40:59,120
Speaker 1: can hijack and control the software or the other side.

1977
01:40:59,520 --> 01:41:01,519
Speaker 1: That's the new real that's that's our new Cold war

1978
01:41:02,800 --> 01:41:05,519
Speaker 1: crazy stuff. It's a long way from dung beetles and

1979
01:41:05,600 --> 01:41:09,679
Speaker 1: rhinoceros beetles, I'll tell you that. No, it's great though, man,

1980
01:41:10,280 --> 01:41:12,799
Speaker 1: you do a great job of bringing it all together. Thanks.

1981
01:41:13,200 --> 01:41:18,120
Speaker 1: Like the parts about deer, No, it's phenomenal. Is it

1982
01:41:18,160 --> 01:41:21,719
Speaker 1: possible to tell where you are in within an arms

1983
01:41:21,800 --> 01:41:25,040
Speaker 1: race in a partaylor species? Oh? I thought you mean us.

1984
01:41:25,080 --> 01:41:26,840
Speaker 1: It's like it's a little scary when you try to

1985
01:41:26,880 --> 01:41:33,200
Speaker 1: do that. That says our aircraft carriers. Had all kinds

1986
01:41:33,200 --> 01:41:36,360
Speaker 1: of human comparison questions coming through my head and I've

1987
01:41:36,400 --> 01:41:41,040
Speaker 1: passed it all. Elk kef bigger antlers or they have

1988
01:41:41,200 --> 01:41:45,800
Speaker 1: like very possible. Yeah, yeah, I think that arms racist. Still, well,

1989
01:41:45,800 --> 01:41:48,640
Speaker 1: it's hard to say so. First of all, with animal populations,

1990
01:41:48,720 --> 01:41:50,280
Speaker 1: you know, we talked. Sam brought up the fact that

1991
01:41:50,320 --> 01:41:52,880
Speaker 1: evolution can happen really fast. And when you're dealing with

1992
01:41:52,880 --> 01:41:55,439
Speaker 1: antibiotics applied to a population of BacT here as you're

1993
01:41:55,479 --> 01:41:57,519
Speaker 1: talking hours, you know, I met population is going to

1994
01:41:57,560 --> 01:42:01,400
Speaker 1: adapt within twenty four hours fast. Because they're head influenza.

1995
01:42:01,439 --> 01:42:02,800
Speaker 1: People want to know why they get to get a

1996
01:42:02,800 --> 01:42:05,040
Speaker 1: flu shot every single year. It's because the flu virus

1997
01:42:05,160 --> 01:42:09,280
Speaker 1: is evolving so fast that six months, eight months out,

1998
01:42:09,520 --> 01:42:12,360
Speaker 1: it's such a genetically different beast that the vaccinations we

1999
01:42:12,439 --> 01:42:15,040
Speaker 1: just produced don't match it anymore. And so those are

2000
01:42:15,080 --> 01:42:18,800
Speaker 1: situations where it's happening really fast. I mean hours to days,

2001
01:42:18,840 --> 01:42:20,519
Speaker 1: two weeks. You've got to stay on top of it.

2002
01:42:21,000 --> 01:42:24,439
Speaker 1: Elk rhinosters beetle is probably a little bit slower, still

2003
01:42:24,520 --> 01:42:26,599
Speaker 1: fast in the grand scheme of things, because these kinds

2004
01:42:26,600 --> 01:42:29,320
Speaker 1: of arms races are quicker than normal background evolution. But

2005
01:42:30,240 --> 01:42:32,760
Speaker 1: but we're talking decades, the hundreds of years. No, but

2006
01:42:32,800 --> 01:42:35,639
Speaker 1: I can flip that back getting smaller. We've got really

2007
01:42:35,680 --> 01:42:37,640
Speaker 1: good evidence. This will be a hot button topic for

2008
01:42:37,680 --> 01:42:39,519
Speaker 1: your audience, but I know some of the scientists. We

2009
01:42:39,560 --> 01:42:42,439
Speaker 1: have very compelling evidence that things like big horn sheep

2010
01:42:42,520 --> 01:42:47,080
Speaker 1: populations have been selected on by trophy hunting and have

2011
01:42:47,320 --> 01:42:51,320
Speaker 1: actually evolved in response to have smaller and smaller horns.

2012
01:42:51,320 --> 01:42:54,640
Speaker 1: So we've actually driven the evolution of smaller weapons in

2013
01:42:54,760 --> 01:42:58,720
Speaker 1: contemporary populations of an ungulate big horn sheep and they've

2014
01:42:58,760 --> 01:43:00,760
Speaker 1: got data where they stopped the trophy hunting and the

2015
01:43:01,040 --> 01:43:04,040
Speaker 1: horns rebounded and evolved to be really really big again.

2016
01:43:04,120 --> 01:43:07,479
Speaker 1: So we can see weapon evolution even on the scale

2017
01:43:07,520 --> 01:43:09,719
Speaker 1: of things like to you or big horn sheep happening

2018
01:43:09,760 --> 01:43:13,000
Speaker 1: over you know, two decades, three decades. It's not ours

2019
01:43:13,080 --> 01:43:16,400
Speaker 1: like flu, and it's not millennia. It's it's still pretty

2020
01:43:16,400 --> 01:43:21,559
Speaker 1: fast with that, you know, like a doll sheet, for instance,

2021
01:43:21,640 --> 01:43:24,439
Speaker 1: and most of Alaska, a doll sheep becomes legal when

2022
01:43:24,439 --> 01:43:27,880
Speaker 1: he develops the three sixty degree horn. If al's a

2023
01:43:27,920 --> 01:43:33,719
Speaker 1: doll sheet, you'd be better off. If that didn't, you're

2024
01:43:33,720 --> 01:43:36,280
Speaker 1: still vulnerable because of other things. But that's like the

2025
01:43:36,360 --> 01:43:39,920
Speaker 1: key indicator. And one that gets there fast, one that

2026
01:43:39,960 --> 01:43:44,280
Speaker 1: gets a full curl fast is I don't know, and

2027
01:43:44,280 --> 01:43:47,559
Speaker 1: I don't know how actually two. And if if there's

2028
01:43:47,960 --> 01:43:50,840
Speaker 1: tens of thousands of dollar sheep and a relatively light

2029
01:43:50,880 --> 01:43:53,479
Speaker 1: hunting pressure, so only a couple of dozen trophy animals

2030
01:43:53,479 --> 01:43:56,320
Speaker 1: get yanked, maybe that's not really that big an effect,

2031
01:43:56,360 --> 01:43:58,760
Speaker 1: and the benefits in the local populations are still going

2032
01:43:58,800 --> 01:44:01,240
Speaker 1: to be so great to keep going. But if you're

2033
01:44:01,240 --> 01:44:04,479
Speaker 1: talking about hunting pressure, where you're really taking a sizeable

2034
01:44:04,479 --> 01:44:07,479
Speaker 1: proportion of the top animals, then yeah, that would apply

2035
01:44:07,600 --> 01:44:10,280
Speaker 1: very strong selection to the males to not have that

2036
01:44:10,360 --> 01:44:12,680
Speaker 1: last curl. We do that with fisheries. One of the

2037
01:44:12,680 --> 01:44:15,840
Speaker 1: problems we have things like Atlantic cod populations is gill

2038
01:44:15,920 --> 01:44:19,479
Speaker 1: nets catch the big animals the small ones slipped through,

2039
01:44:19,920 --> 01:44:22,760
Speaker 1: so we tend to selectively harvest the older. Big fish

2040
01:44:22,800 --> 01:44:24,439
Speaker 1: keep growing as they get You know this better than

2041
01:44:24,439 --> 01:44:27,160
Speaker 1: me saying they get They keep growing as they get older.

2042
01:44:27,240 --> 01:44:30,560
Speaker 1: So big fish are also older fish. So we're selectively

2043
01:44:30,640 --> 01:44:33,800
Speaker 1: harvesting the biggest and the oldest fish on a very

2044
01:44:33,920 --> 01:44:36,719
Speaker 1: large scale. When you consider the scope of the Atlantic

2045
01:44:36,720 --> 01:44:38,960
Speaker 1: cod fisheries and the numbers of ships and the numbers

2046
01:44:38,960 --> 01:44:41,599
Speaker 1: of fish that they're taking, and there's really good evidence

2047
01:44:41,600 --> 01:44:44,960
Speaker 1: over the last thirty fifty years that the animals have

2048
01:44:45,120 --> 01:44:48,240
Speaker 1: both evolved to grow more slowly so they stay smaller,

2049
01:44:48,640 --> 01:44:51,200
Speaker 1: and they started reproducing at a smaller size and a

2050
01:44:51,240 --> 01:44:54,000
Speaker 1: younger age. So they're beginning to reproduce smaller than they

2051
01:44:54,080 --> 01:44:56,400
Speaker 1: used to because all the big guys are being pulled out.

2052
01:44:56,800 --> 01:44:58,960
Speaker 1: It's the small ones that stumbled on a way to

2053
01:44:59,000 --> 01:45:01,639
Speaker 1: reproduce early that now winning they're small enough to get

2054
01:45:01,640 --> 01:45:04,160
Speaker 1: through the gillnets and they're breeding. Those are the ones

2055
01:45:04,200 --> 01:45:07,240
Speaker 1: producing the offspring. So the populations evolving, you know, in

2056
01:45:07,240 --> 01:45:09,439
Speaker 1: a direction that's not so great for the fisheries industry,

2057
01:45:09,479 --> 01:45:11,799
Speaker 1: but it makes a lot of biological sense. We're applying

2058
01:45:11,840 --> 01:45:14,719
Speaker 1: selection by taking the big ones, the smaller ones start

2059
01:45:14,760 --> 01:45:18,479
Speaker 1: doing better, the population evolves towards a smaller size. What

2060
01:45:18,520 --> 01:45:26,559
Speaker 1: else you got yet, um on animal weapons? Like any

2061
01:45:26,640 --> 01:45:29,360
Speaker 1: like concluders, masks, like you're typing away over there. Oh,

2062
01:45:30,320 --> 01:45:32,639
Speaker 1: that was my question. There was about if we knew

2063
01:45:32,680 --> 01:45:35,040
Speaker 1: where the arms race was? Are you asked where we

2064
01:45:35,040 --> 01:45:36,720
Speaker 1: were in the animals? You can see in a lot

2065
01:45:36,760 --> 01:45:39,240
Speaker 1: of animals that the sneak tactics are already there. You

2066
01:45:39,280 --> 01:45:41,719
Speaker 1: study their behavior and you can find the sneaky mails

2067
01:45:41,800 --> 01:45:45,200
Speaker 1: or the what you call them precocious mails in the

2068
01:45:45,240 --> 01:45:47,920
Speaker 1: salmon and so in a way, you know you're already

2069
01:45:47,920 --> 01:45:50,000
Speaker 1: part way into that cycle. And by definition, if you

2070
01:45:50,040 --> 01:45:52,320
Speaker 1: picked it because it's got a huge weapon, it's probably

2071
01:45:52,360 --> 01:45:55,439
Speaker 1: already pretty far in. But but there is a fun

2072
01:45:55,479 --> 01:46:00,639
Speaker 1: twist there. We've known about sneaky mails for years. I mean,

2073
01:46:00,640 --> 01:46:03,559
Speaker 1: it's not a new aspect of animal behavior, but nobody

2074
01:46:03,560 --> 01:46:06,479
Speaker 1: had ever connected it to an arms race before seeing

2075
01:46:06,520 --> 01:46:09,280
Speaker 1: the sneaky mails as the beginning of the end, the

2076
01:46:09,360 --> 01:46:12,519
Speaker 1: sort of beginning of the collapse was totally new, and

2077
01:46:13,000 --> 01:46:15,439
Speaker 1: I got that idea from the military. And the reason

2078
01:46:15,520 --> 01:46:17,320
Speaker 1: is because he's saying you brought it's because it takes

2079
01:46:17,320 --> 01:46:20,559
Speaker 1: a long time. We can see arms races there. We

2080
01:46:20,640 --> 01:46:23,280
Speaker 1: see species with huge antlers. That's why I try to

2081
01:46:23,280 --> 01:46:24,960
Speaker 1: study these things in the first place. It's like, what

2082
01:46:25,040 --> 01:46:27,400
Speaker 1: the hell is happening in that beetle or this fly

2083
01:46:27,920 --> 01:46:31,320
Speaker 1: or that ungulate. We picked them because they've got the structures.

2084
01:46:31,360 --> 01:46:33,559
Speaker 1: We know something's going on, and we can infer from

2085
01:46:33,600 --> 01:46:36,080
Speaker 1: that that they're part way into this cycle. But we

2086
01:46:36,160 --> 01:46:39,679
Speaker 1: never actually get to see a collapse. But the military does.

2087
01:46:40,000 --> 01:46:43,599
Speaker 1: They've got really good records all the way through. They

2088
01:46:43,720 --> 01:46:47,519
Speaker 1: know why arms races collapse. They know why the arms

2089
01:46:47,600 --> 01:46:50,519
Speaker 1: raced with the Napoleon era sailing galleons collapsed. It was

2090
01:46:50,600 --> 01:46:53,800
Speaker 1: fire ships. Once that you know, you could set these

2091
01:46:53,800 --> 01:46:55,800
Speaker 1: things on fire, it was over. It was game over.

2092
01:46:55,840 --> 01:46:58,920
Speaker 1: They were done. We know about iron clad battleships. They

2093
01:46:58,920 --> 01:47:00,800
Speaker 1: know what started the arms race. They know how they

2094
01:47:00,800 --> 01:47:03,719
Speaker 1: got bigger and bigger and bigger. They know how nations

2095
01:47:03,720 --> 01:47:06,439
Speaker 1: sort of exploded in their attempts to build bigger and

2096
01:47:06,479 --> 01:47:08,360
Speaker 1: more of these battleships, and then they know why they

2097
01:47:08,400 --> 01:47:11,200
Speaker 1: became obsoleted with submarines. It was a sneaky beetle. Little

2098
01:47:11,240 --> 01:47:14,680
Speaker 1: beetle goes underground, minds his way into the tunnel. Submarines

2099
01:47:14,840 --> 01:47:17,639
Speaker 1: sneak under the surface, and they can sink even the biggest,

2100
01:47:17,640 --> 01:47:22,280
Speaker 1: best battleships from underwater. It's cheating that admirals hate submarines.

2101
01:47:22,600 --> 01:47:25,320
Speaker 1: It's an athema to them. It's dishonorable. It's like breaking

2102
01:47:25,360 --> 01:47:28,160
Speaker 1: the rules. It's exactly what it is, is breaking the rules.

2103
01:47:28,479 --> 01:47:30,559
Speaker 1: But once you've got submarines out there, you change the

2104
01:47:30,560 --> 01:47:33,840
Speaker 1: game and suddenly the really big battleships are obsolete. And

2105
01:47:33,840 --> 01:47:37,760
Speaker 1: so today it's not battleships and submarines. Well, so what

2106
01:47:37,840 --> 01:47:40,040
Speaker 1: we have our strike groups. We have our own submarines,

2107
01:47:40,479 --> 01:47:43,599
Speaker 1: and we surround our carriers now, which are the focus

2108
01:47:43,640 --> 01:47:46,280
Speaker 1: instead of the battleships. It's the carriers now we have

2109
01:47:46,400 --> 01:47:48,559
Speaker 1: to surround them with a strike group. You'll we would

2110
01:47:48,640 --> 01:47:52,120
Speaker 1: never send a carrier anywhere by itself. It only exists

2111
01:47:52,120 --> 01:47:54,160
Speaker 1: in a bubble that is created by the cruisers and

2112
01:47:54,160 --> 01:47:56,720
Speaker 1: the destroyers and the submarines, and the reason we need

2113
01:47:56,760 --> 01:47:59,600
Speaker 1: all that other stuff is because the submarines from the

2114
01:47:59,600 --> 01:48:04,240
Speaker 1: other side. So so the military figured out that changes

2115
01:48:04,240 --> 01:48:07,479
Speaker 1: in technology that broke the rules, that cheated were the

2116
01:48:07,520 --> 01:48:10,080
Speaker 1: things that collapsed in arms race. And they had studied

2117
01:48:10,080 --> 01:48:12,519
Speaker 1: it over and over again, from the ancient Mediterranean through

2118
01:48:12,520 --> 01:48:16,480
Speaker 1: the saline warships, the ironclad battleships, aircraft, all these systems

2119
01:48:16,840 --> 01:48:19,280
Speaker 1: had been worked out by military scholars and over and

2120
01:48:19,320 --> 01:48:22,720
Speaker 1: over again it's the sneaky, the cheaters that collapse the system.

2121
01:48:22,800 --> 01:48:24,519
Speaker 1: And so what was fun for me here, I'm a

2122
01:48:24,560 --> 01:48:27,880
Speaker 1: biologist reading all this military stuff, was to turn around

2123
01:48:27,880 --> 01:48:30,960
Speaker 1: and say, hey, we've got cheaters. We've known that forever.

2124
01:48:31,040 --> 01:48:32,840
Speaker 1: Oh they're sneak. I even found him as a grad

2125
01:48:32,880 --> 01:48:35,840
Speaker 1: student in my dung beetles, the sneaky mails. But putting

2126
01:48:35,840 --> 01:48:38,320
Speaker 1: the two pieces together and saying, wait a minute, maybe

2127
01:48:38,320 --> 01:48:40,400
Speaker 1: the sneakers or the collapse of the arms race in

2128
01:48:40,439 --> 01:48:42,680
Speaker 1: the animal systems too, that's new. We don't have a

2129
01:48:42,680 --> 01:48:45,240
Speaker 1: good way to test it yet because animal systems take

2130
01:48:45,320 --> 01:48:47,320
Speaker 1: long enough that we rarely ever get to catch it

2131
01:48:47,400 --> 01:48:49,360
Speaker 1: in action. So it's sort of a leap of faith

2132
01:48:49,400 --> 01:48:51,960
Speaker 1: at this point. It's an hypothesis that needs to be tested.

2133
01:48:52,439 --> 01:48:54,040
Speaker 1: But it's one of the ideas I put forward in

2134
01:48:54,040 --> 01:48:57,519
Speaker 1: that book, and it came from crossover between the military

2135
01:48:57,520 --> 01:48:59,559
Speaker 1: literature and the animal literature. And again it's it's fun,

2136
01:48:59,560 --> 01:49:02,599
Speaker 1: and it's only possible because these extreme weapons are so similar.

2137
01:49:02,720 --> 01:49:05,960
Speaker 1: The animal weapons story. Pretty much everything you could say

2138
01:49:06,080 --> 01:49:10,120
Speaker 1: about elk antlers or cariboo antlers you could apply verbatim

2139
01:49:10,200 --> 01:49:13,559
Speaker 1: to aircraft carriers or F thirty five strike fighters today.

2140
01:49:13,600 --> 01:49:16,080
Speaker 1: I mean, the parallels are so deep at every level

2141
01:49:16,360 --> 01:49:18,080
Speaker 1: that now we can go back and forth between the

2142
01:49:18,160 --> 01:49:23,520
Speaker 1: literatures and each side can learn from the other. Sam,

2143
01:49:23,640 --> 01:49:27,000
Speaker 1: what do you got? Oh, you got a good grade

2144
01:49:27,040 --> 01:49:29,519
Speaker 1: when you took his class. You don't, can't bring that up.

2145
01:49:32,840 --> 01:49:38,639
Speaker 1: Deserved a better grade? Um man? So many, so many things.

2146
01:49:38,840 --> 01:49:41,920
Speaker 1: One one thing I was I was curious about perusing

2147
01:49:41,960 --> 01:49:44,759
Speaker 1: the book, and you know, think about animal animal weapons.

2148
01:49:44,960 --> 01:49:48,440
Speaker 1: Um what? And you know, obviously my my mind gravitates,

2149
01:49:48,520 --> 01:49:52,040
Speaker 1: gravitates towards the young ulates and the antlers and everything.

2150
01:49:52,479 --> 01:49:56,479
Speaker 1: I was curious about non typical antler configurations and and

2151
01:49:56,520 --> 01:50:02,120
Speaker 1: if if that is adaptive in some way, and and

2152
01:50:02,439 --> 01:50:06,880
Speaker 1: I'm wondering if if perhaps that is is some form

2153
01:50:06,960 --> 01:50:10,840
Speaker 1: of cheating that it's a different configuration that might be

2154
01:50:10,920 --> 01:50:17,519
Speaker 1: able to um be defeat like that because they call

2155
01:50:17,560 --> 01:50:22,559
Speaker 1: it cheating because they're still paying the prosy. And I'm

2156
01:50:22,560 --> 01:50:23,880
Speaker 1: going to take your idea and run with it. What

2157
01:50:23,920 --> 01:50:27,240
Speaker 1: I would call it is variation. So again, all these

2158
01:50:27,240 --> 01:50:31,320
Speaker 1: populations start out with differences among individuals. Mutations pop up

2159
01:50:31,320 --> 01:50:33,400
Speaker 1: here and there, and if they happen to affect the

2160
01:50:33,400 --> 01:50:36,920
Speaker 1: way the antlers are developing, then you get a variant

2161
01:50:36,960 --> 01:50:38,640
Speaker 1: on the theme. The antlers a little bit different the

2162
01:50:38,640 --> 01:50:40,800
Speaker 1: times been. Who knows what it is, it's different. You've

2163
01:50:40,840 --> 01:50:45,200
Speaker 1: all seen crazy mutant antlers. Sometimes it's it's a genetic change.

2164
01:50:45,240 --> 01:50:47,640
Speaker 1: It's literally a heritable mutation in the genomes of these

2165
01:50:47,680 --> 01:50:50,040
Speaker 1: animals that affects the way they grow. And there's pretty

2166
01:50:50,040 --> 01:50:51,519
Speaker 1: good evidence of that. I don't know how many of

2167
01:50:51,520 --> 01:50:54,559
Speaker 1: you collect sheds, but probably all of you do. There's

2168
01:50:54,600 --> 01:50:56,960
Speaker 1: some neat places where you can show that the same

2169
01:50:57,000 --> 01:51:00,559
Speaker 1: bowl produces the same mutant form of the antler after year,

2170
01:51:00,640 --> 01:51:03,080
Speaker 1: and often you can find kids and grandkids in the

2171
01:51:03,120 --> 01:51:05,479
Speaker 1: same area that have the same variants. So some of

2172
01:51:05,520 --> 01:51:09,879
Speaker 1: these sort of defective antlers are heritable. They're they're produced

2173
01:51:09,880 --> 01:51:12,799
Speaker 1: somehow by something in the genome that's passed on other times.

2174
01:51:12,880 --> 01:51:14,920
Speaker 1: Who knows, it could be an injury to the cells

2175
01:51:15,040 --> 01:51:17,160
Speaker 1: or a burn or something that's not passed on. But

2176
01:51:17,160 --> 01:51:20,760
Speaker 1: but either way, their perturbations, their variations on the theme

2177
01:51:21,080 --> 01:51:23,519
Speaker 1: that's the raw material that evolution works on. I would

2178
01:51:23,520 --> 01:51:25,960
Speaker 1: expect most of the time they're not going to work

2179
01:51:26,000 --> 01:51:28,160
Speaker 1: that well. You know, thousands of millions of years of

2180
01:51:28,200 --> 01:51:30,799
Speaker 1: honing Antler shape and you go off in some wonkie

2181
01:51:30,840 --> 01:51:33,360
Speaker 1: direction and probably it's not going to function as well

2182
01:51:33,800 --> 01:51:36,680
Speaker 1: most of the time. But every now and then it

2183
01:51:36,800 --> 01:51:39,639
Speaker 1: might and all of a sudden you've got something that's better,

2184
01:51:39,680 --> 01:51:41,439
Speaker 1: and you might have an edge because now you've got

2185
01:51:41,439 --> 01:51:45,000
Speaker 1: a twist that nobody else has and that can really

2186
01:51:45,040 --> 01:51:47,160
Speaker 1: take off. And now your kids and grandkids and so

2187
01:51:47,280 --> 01:51:49,559
Speaker 1: what will happen is you'll start doing better because you've

2188
01:51:49,600 --> 01:51:52,400
Speaker 1: got that twist or the new time or whatever it is.

2189
01:51:53,320 --> 01:51:56,920
Speaker 1: And over time, across generations, if you're doing well enough,

2190
01:51:57,040 --> 01:51:59,519
Speaker 1: the population is going to evolve towards the point where

2191
01:51:59,479 --> 01:52:02,200
Speaker 1: everybody's got that new thing. And this may be the

2192
01:52:02,320 --> 01:52:04,880
Speaker 1: kind of process that Geist would talk about, but none

2193
01:52:04,880 --> 01:52:07,400
Speaker 1: of us ever get to actually see of how you

2194
01:52:07,520 --> 01:52:09,760
Speaker 1: go like, why why does a white tailed deer and

2195
01:52:09,760 --> 01:52:12,240
Speaker 1: a mule deer have, you know, antlers with the same

2196
01:52:12,320 --> 01:52:15,400
Speaker 1: number of times, but they branched differently. Who knows, but

2197
01:52:15,479 --> 01:52:17,840
Speaker 1: it might have been something like that and sistrally that

2198
01:52:18,000 --> 01:52:20,559
Speaker 1: sent one population off on a direction where they had

2199
01:52:20,560 --> 01:52:23,680
Speaker 1: a slightly different configuration than before. And so what you're

2200
01:52:23,720 --> 01:52:26,160
Speaker 1: talking about is the raw material that I would argue

2201
01:52:26,479 --> 01:52:29,519
Speaker 1: sets the stage for evolution of new shapes or new

2202
01:52:29,600 --> 01:52:31,960
Speaker 1: types of weapons. When we look across beetles, or you

2203
01:52:32,000 --> 01:52:34,760
Speaker 1: look across service, or you look across the antelope, it's

2204
01:52:34,760 --> 01:52:36,960
Speaker 1: really clear to us that the weapons change a lot.

2205
01:52:37,080 --> 01:52:39,600
Speaker 1: They don't just get big, they change in form. So

2206
01:52:39,640 --> 01:52:42,639
Speaker 1: there's all kinds of crazy differences and weapons, and that's

2207
01:52:42,640 --> 01:52:44,600
Speaker 1: sort of the big unknown mystery we're still trying to

2208
01:52:44,600 --> 01:52:47,080
Speaker 1: figure out. We don't have a good reason to explain

2209
01:52:47,120 --> 01:52:49,439
Speaker 1: why there's a thousand different kinds of beetle horns. If

2210
01:52:49,439 --> 01:52:51,439
Speaker 1: beetle horns are good and bigger is better, why don't

2211
01:52:51,479 --> 01:52:53,160
Speaker 1: they all have the same kind of horn. I can't

2212
01:52:53,160 --> 01:52:56,200
Speaker 1: tell you. I spent years trying to answer this stupid question.

2213
01:52:56,240 --> 01:52:59,240
Speaker 1: I can't tell you why two sister species of beetles

2214
01:52:59,280 --> 01:53:02,120
Speaker 1: have totally different shapes of horns. They're in tunnels, they're

2215
01:53:02,120 --> 01:53:04,360
Speaker 1: doing the same thing, they're finding the same kinds of fights.

2216
01:53:04,400 --> 01:53:06,559
Speaker 1: Everything else about their biology is the same. So why

2217
01:53:06,600 --> 01:53:08,720
Speaker 1: the hell does one of them have horns coming off

2218
01:53:08,760 --> 01:53:11,360
Speaker 1: the thorax and another one have a bent set of

2219
01:53:11,360 --> 01:53:14,639
Speaker 1: horns coming off the head. We don't know. But but

2220
01:53:14,640 --> 01:53:17,000
Speaker 1: but these kinds of things have to start with what

2221
01:53:17,040 --> 01:53:20,040
Speaker 1: you're talking about, differences, you know, those crazy variants that

2222
01:53:20,080 --> 01:53:23,240
Speaker 1: pop up and in some set set of circumstances and

2223
01:53:23,280 --> 01:53:27,000
Speaker 1: some population, it just works. Whatever it is about it,

2224
01:53:27,000 --> 01:53:32,280
Speaker 1: it's better and that spreads. Here's my last question for you, Um,

2225
01:53:32,360 --> 01:53:36,920
Speaker 1: what's the explanation of like, like, how did it come

2226
01:53:36,960 --> 01:53:43,200
Speaker 1: to be that starts all right there? How would it

2227
01:53:43,240 --> 01:53:47,439
Speaker 1: come to be? Uh, what is the advantage of losing

2228
01:53:47,439 --> 01:53:51,519
Speaker 1: your antlers? Or you know what I mean? Yeah, cost

2229
01:53:52,240 --> 01:53:55,960
Speaker 1: I think of them. I thought you man like nolutionarily,

2230
01:53:56,000 --> 01:54:00,040
Speaker 1: why would I get why? How? Curan warned me you

2231
01:54:00,120 --> 01:54:01,599
Speaker 1: might ask me that, And I was like, oh shit,

2232
01:54:01,680 --> 01:54:03,720
Speaker 1: I don't know the answer to that, Like how did

2233
01:54:03,760 --> 01:54:05,400
Speaker 1: it come to me that they like that they shed

2234
01:54:05,439 --> 01:54:10,360
Speaker 1: their antlers? And don't I don't know? And I quick

2235
01:54:10,400 --> 01:54:12,280
Speaker 1: because we've got some really good biologic here, and you

2236
01:54:12,320 --> 01:54:14,200
Speaker 1: were see Montana, and so I instantly as soon as

2237
01:54:14,240 --> 01:54:15,880
Speaker 1: I got that last night, it's like, oh my god,

2238
01:54:15,920 --> 01:54:17,599
Speaker 1: I don't know the answer to that. I quick wrote

2239
01:54:17,640 --> 01:54:21,920
Speaker 1: Mark Eva White, who's a phenomenal biologic here, really good biologists.

2240
01:54:21,920 --> 01:54:26,200
Speaker 1: It's like, he'll know. I don't think anybody knows. He

2241
01:54:26,320 --> 01:54:28,840
Speaker 1: flipped it around, he said, tell me why why Why

2242
01:54:28,960 --> 01:54:31,920
Speaker 1: don't you know why don't the bovids shed their antlers

2243
01:54:31,920 --> 01:54:33,720
Speaker 1: every year six and one half dozen of the other

2244
01:54:33,760 --> 01:54:35,680
Speaker 1: Why Why are you asking the question one way and

2245
01:54:35,720 --> 01:54:37,360
Speaker 1: not the other. But the fact is, we don't know.

2246
01:54:37,760 --> 01:54:39,920
Speaker 1: I did a quick search on the literature. We know

2247
01:54:40,120 --> 01:54:43,800
Speaker 1: a lot about the mechanisms sort of how they do it,

2248
01:54:43,920 --> 01:54:46,680
Speaker 1: so I could say, oh, they shed their antlers because

2249
01:54:46,760 --> 01:54:49,000
Speaker 1: these animals are queuing into photo period and the hormones

2250
01:54:49,000 --> 01:54:51,440
Speaker 1: are changing, and when the steroid hormones levels dropped, the

2251
01:54:51,480 --> 01:54:54,880
Speaker 1: cells sinasse and it all falls fine. We know a

2252
01:54:54,880 --> 01:54:57,040
Speaker 1: lot about the cellular machinery. There was a beautiful new

2253
01:54:57,080 --> 01:54:59,480
Speaker 1: paper that just came out in Science like last week

2254
01:55:00,160 --> 01:55:03,120
Speaker 1: where they sequence the genomes of like twenty servant species

2255
01:55:03,160 --> 01:55:05,280
Speaker 1: and they're able to look and a bunch of antelope

2256
01:55:05,280 --> 01:55:07,480
Speaker 1: and bovid species, and they're able to look at the

2257
01:55:07,560 --> 01:55:10,760
Speaker 1: cellular level of how these horns grow and figure out

2258
01:55:10,800 --> 01:55:13,440
Speaker 1: the genes and the pathways. A beautiful set of studies.

2259
01:55:13,680 --> 01:55:17,400
Speaker 1: So we know a lot about how antlers grow and

2260
01:55:17,440 --> 01:55:21,200
Speaker 1: about how they fall off and start regrowing again, but

2261
01:55:21,360 --> 01:55:24,720
Speaker 1: nobody has a clue sort of for the adaptive significance

2262
01:55:24,800 --> 01:55:28,040
Speaker 1: or ultimate evolutionary explanation why at some point in the

2263
01:55:28,080 --> 01:55:31,400
Speaker 1: past and the ancestor of the servits some idiot that

2264
01:55:31,520 --> 01:55:33,320
Speaker 1: shed its antlers and had to go through the whole

2265
01:55:33,320 --> 01:55:36,840
Speaker 1: process and grow it back again. Why those individuals did

2266
01:55:36,880 --> 01:55:41,400
Speaker 1: better and persisted when the other individuals don't. We don't know. Well,

2267
01:55:41,480 --> 01:55:42,680
Speaker 1: let me tell you how what the people are right

2268
01:55:42,680 --> 01:55:44,840
Speaker 1: into us like to throw out there because this comes

2269
01:55:44,880 --> 01:55:46,160
Speaker 1: up all I will take a step, but let me

2270
01:55:46,160 --> 01:55:48,720
Speaker 1: hear what they say. Um, and again you don't know,

2271
01:55:49,080 --> 01:55:51,640
Speaker 1: like we don't know the answer. But people like to say, like, well,

2272
01:55:51,680 --> 01:55:55,720
Speaker 1: I could you know imagine this right? So one is uh,

2273
01:55:55,920 --> 01:55:59,000
Speaker 1: you could imagine this isn't the cause of what happened.

2274
01:55:59,000 --> 01:56:03,240
Speaker 1: You could imagine that. It's more it's a constantly changing,

2275
01:56:03,840 --> 01:56:07,840
Speaker 1: in much more responsive marker of your fitness. That is

2276
01:56:07,880 --> 01:56:10,720
Speaker 1: a great answer. So whoever you call that one and

2277
01:56:10,880 --> 01:56:12,400
Speaker 1: is on the money, that's a good one. Because we

2278
01:56:12,480 --> 01:56:16,640
Speaker 1: talked about honest signals. So in the Beatles, I told

2279
01:56:16,640 --> 01:56:18,520
Speaker 1: you it's like a suit of armor. Once he emerges

2280
01:56:18,520 --> 01:56:21,800
Speaker 1: an adult, you're stuck. So the horn size is a

2281
01:56:21,880 --> 01:56:24,480
Speaker 1: really good signal of what kind of a stud you

2282
01:56:24,520 --> 01:56:26,760
Speaker 1: are as a grub, as a larva. But once you

2283
01:56:26,800 --> 01:56:28,760
Speaker 1: go through metamorphosis and you're an adult and you've got

2284
01:56:28,800 --> 01:56:31,400
Speaker 1: your suit of armor, that's it how you're doing right now.

2285
01:56:31,440 --> 01:56:34,480
Speaker 1: And so I could come out out of you know, development,

2286
01:56:34,520 --> 01:56:36,400
Speaker 1: with a huge horn because I'm a stud, and another

2287
01:56:36,440 --> 01:56:38,520
Speaker 1: guy has a little horn because he's a whimp. But

2288
01:56:38,920 --> 01:56:41,880
Speaker 1: two months, three months later, I could have been fighting, fighting,

2289
01:56:41,880 --> 01:56:43,959
Speaker 1: fighting and not eating at all. I could be starved,

2290
01:56:43,960 --> 01:56:46,040
Speaker 1: I could be a shell. I could be riddled with disease.

2291
01:56:46,040 --> 01:56:48,720
Speaker 1: I've still got a huge horn. You know, you can't tell.

2292
01:56:48,880 --> 01:56:51,400
Speaker 1: So over time it becomes uncoupled with the sort of

2293
01:56:51,440 --> 01:56:54,520
Speaker 1: instantaneous condition and dominance and status of the mail, and

2294
01:56:54,560 --> 01:56:56,960
Speaker 1: so redoing it each year makes a lot of sense.

2295
01:56:57,000 --> 01:56:58,680
Speaker 1: There's a way to keep the signal honest. The other

2296
01:56:58,720 --> 01:57:01,200
Speaker 1: thing is they're expensive to carry round, so you look

2297
01:57:01,240 --> 01:57:04,040
Speaker 1: at birds with bright colors, they get rid of them

2298
01:57:04,040 --> 01:57:06,080
Speaker 1: as soon as as soon as the breeding season is done,

2299
01:57:06,120 --> 01:57:09,320
Speaker 1: they molt all those bright feathers out. They go drab.

2300
01:57:09,560 --> 01:57:11,800
Speaker 1: Why stand out like a sore thought and carry all

2301
01:57:11,920 --> 01:57:14,160
Speaker 1: is crap around behind you when you don't have to.

2302
01:57:14,600 --> 01:57:17,960
Speaker 1: So the other possible argument is you only need it,

2303
01:57:18,120 --> 01:57:19,560
Speaker 1: you only produce it when you need it, and then

2304
01:57:19,560 --> 01:57:21,960
Speaker 1: you get rid of it. Oh, you know, during the

2305
01:57:22,040 --> 01:57:23,600
Speaker 1: rut you've got it, then you throw it away and

2306
01:57:23,600 --> 01:57:25,840
Speaker 1: you don't have to carry it around and going into

2307
01:57:25,920 --> 01:57:28,680
Speaker 1: winter when it's hard to carry it around. Yep. And

2308
01:57:28,680 --> 01:57:30,640
Speaker 1: and a twist on that that would be consistent with

2309
01:57:30,680 --> 01:57:32,600
Speaker 1: that is a study that that I got to be

2310
01:57:32,640 --> 01:57:34,920
Speaker 1: a peripheral part of that. Mark Heba White was also

2311
01:57:35,000 --> 01:57:38,240
Speaker 1: part of and and one of his students beautiful study

2312
01:57:38,240 --> 01:57:42,520
Speaker 1: that came out looking at the Yellowstone elk and wolf

2313
01:57:42,640 --> 01:57:47,520
Speaker 1: population dynamics. And they showed that the elk actually keep

2314
01:57:47,520 --> 01:57:50,120
Speaker 1: their antlers longer than most of the other servants. So

2315
01:57:50,120 --> 01:57:52,120
Speaker 1: they're not getting rid of them and being hornless or

2316
01:57:52,160 --> 01:57:54,400
Speaker 1: antler less all winter. They're holding onto them all the

2317
01:57:54,440 --> 01:57:56,920
Speaker 1: way through until March. You know, people who collect sheds

2318
01:57:56,920 --> 01:57:59,000
Speaker 1: know this until the end of March early April. That's

2319
01:57:59,000 --> 01:58:02,280
Speaker 1: when the elk shed. So then what, right, why are

2320
01:58:02,280 --> 01:58:04,040
Speaker 1: you carrying this thing around all winter? If you can

2321
01:58:04,080 --> 01:58:05,720
Speaker 1: get rid of it, why not get rid of it

2322
01:58:05,760 --> 01:58:07,680
Speaker 1: as soon as you're done with it? In this case,

2323
01:58:07,800 --> 01:58:10,320
Speaker 1: the secondary benefit of having the antlers is that it

2324
01:58:10,320 --> 01:58:12,800
Speaker 1: protects these bulls from wolves. And so they have a

2325
01:58:12,800 --> 01:58:16,560
Speaker 1: beautiful study showing that the bulls that dropped their antlers early,

2326
01:58:16,600 --> 01:58:19,160
Speaker 1: even just a couple of days earlier than other bulls

2327
01:58:19,160 --> 01:58:22,160
Speaker 1: in the population get targeted and hammered by the wolves

2328
01:58:22,160 --> 01:58:25,400
Speaker 1: because they can't defend themselves the same way. And so

2329
01:58:25,400 --> 01:58:27,920
Speaker 1: so again it comes back to costs and benefits. But

2330
01:58:28,080 --> 01:58:31,240
Speaker 1: here's this expensive thing, and you actually keep it all

2331
01:58:31,240 --> 01:58:33,200
Speaker 1: winter if you're an elk, because it helps protect you

2332
01:58:33,200 --> 01:58:35,040
Speaker 1: against wolves, and then you got to turn around and

2333
01:58:35,120 --> 01:58:37,640
Speaker 1: use it during the rut. So now we're stuck with

2334
01:58:37,680 --> 01:58:39,280
Speaker 1: that question of why get rid of it and grow

2335
01:58:39,320 --> 01:58:42,240
Speaker 1: the whole thing again? And that may be alegacy. It

2336
01:58:42,320 --> 01:58:44,000
Speaker 1: might have been early on that it made a lot

2337
01:58:44,000 --> 01:58:45,880
Speaker 1: of sense, and early on they were getting rid of

2338
01:58:45,880 --> 01:58:48,200
Speaker 1: the cost, and then they were regrowing it and keeping

2339
01:58:48,240 --> 01:58:51,320
Speaker 1: the signal honest, and then only sort of secondarily in

2340
01:58:51,360 --> 01:58:54,120
Speaker 1: places where the major predators with things like wolves did.

2341
01:58:54,160 --> 01:58:58,080
Speaker 1: Some lineages like elk secondarily essentially hold onto it for

2342
01:58:58,160 --> 01:59:00,320
Speaker 1: longer and longer, in which case they're stuck. It would

2343
01:59:00,320 --> 01:59:02,200
Speaker 1: make more sense if you could design an elk from

2344
01:59:02,200 --> 01:59:04,880
Speaker 1: scratch to have them hold onto the antlers like a

2345
01:59:04,880 --> 01:59:07,440
Speaker 1: big horn sheep would. But we're you know, that's part

2346
01:59:07,440 --> 01:59:09,440
Speaker 1: of evolution is you get the legacy, you get to

2347
01:59:09,480 --> 01:59:11,920
Speaker 1: carry over the baggage that comes with you in your genome.

2348
01:59:12,320 --> 01:59:14,640
Speaker 1: They're carrying with them a legacy of having to throw

2349
01:59:14,680 --> 01:59:16,600
Speaker 1: it away and regrow it each year. So they put

2350
01:59:16,600 --> 01:59:18,480
Speaker 1: it off, put it off, put it off, ditch it,

2351
01:59:18,520 --> 01:59:21,000
Speaker 1: turn around, and regrow it fast. And that's the best

2352
01:59:21,000 --> 01:59:23,160
Speaker 1: they can do. I don't know. Good questions A couple

2353
01:59:23,200 --> 01:59:27,920
Speaker 1: other guys through this one out where they're talking about, um,

2354
01:59:28,000 --> 01:59:31,640
Speaker 1: you know, they break and so it allows you to

2355
01:59:31,680 --> 01:59:34,440
Speaker 1: regenerate all the time instead of snapping it off and

2356
01:59:34,480 --> 01:59:38,400
Speaker 1: being screwed for the rest of these breaks his horn

2357
01:59:38,440 --> 01:59:43,840
Speaker 1: and it's gone shark teeth. Yeah, constantly, Because we're talking

2358
01:59:43,840 --> 01:59:45,480
Speaker 1: about like, how come nothing else We're trying to think

2359
01:59:45,520 --> 01:59:50,280
Speaker 1: of other stuff besides servids. Right, the develop a weapon

2360
01:59:51,360 --> 01:59:53,080
Speaker 1: and lose the weapon and someone's like, well, you can

2361
01:59:53,160 --> 01:59:56,440
Speaker 1: kind of look at just the constant replacing of teeth

2362
01:59:56,440 --> 01:59:58,640
Speaker 1: in a shark. Yeah, you get the same thing in insects,

2363
01:59:58,640 --> 02:00:01,800
Speaker 1: so nimful stage grass oppers are chewing away on leaves

2364
02:00:01,800 --> 02:00:04,000
Speaker 1: and the leaves are often like sandpaper, and it grinds

2365
02:00:04,040 --> 02:00:05,920
Speaker 1: down the edges on their mouth parts. But then they

2366
02:00:05,960 --> 02:00:08,040
Speaker 1: mold and they throw away the old they start with

2367
02:00:08,080 --> 02:00:09,640
Speaker 1: a new clean set and then they can choo choo

2368
02:00:09,680 --> 02:00:11,520
Speaker 1: choo choo, and there's sort of this race for time.

2369
02:00:11,920 --> 02:00:13,960
Speaker 1: If the plants get more and more sand in their

2370
02:00:14,000 --> 02:00:16,120
Speaker 1: in their leaf tissues, then they can grind down the

2371
02:00:16,160 --> 02:00:18,320
Speaker 1: mouth parts. And if they can grind down the grasshopper

2372
02:00:18,360 --> 02:00:21,360
Speaker 1: mouth parts fast enough, they starve to death before they

2373
02:00:21,360 --> 02:00:24,080
Speaker 1: make it to the next mold. So it's like this race.

2374
02:00:24,480 --> 02:00:25,760
Speaker 1: But if they make it to the mold, they got

2375
02:00:25,800 --> 02:00:28,040
Speaker 1: a clean set, new set of anibal sharp blades. They're

2376
02:00:28,080 --> 02:00:30,320
Speaker 1: at it again. So yeah, that would be an insect

2377
02:00:30,320 --> 02:00:35,200
Speaker 1: analogy to the shark's teeth. That's fun. That's it. Hey,

2378
02:00:35,240 --> 02:00:37,880
Speaker 1: this is fun. It's hot in here, but this is great. Yeah,

2379
02:00:37,880 --> 02:00:40,400
Speaker 1: thank you very much. And you got like so animal

2380
02:00:40,440 --> 02:00:43,280
Speaker 1: wait wait wait I get to plug it, don't I'm plug.

2381
02:00:43,480 --> 02:00:45,560
Speaker 1: I'm gonna plug this to t you up, all right,

2382
02:00:45,600 --> 02:00:48,640
Speaker 1: so you can plug your next one. Go for it, time,

2383
02:00:50,160 --> 02:00:53,480
Speaker 1: author of Animal Weapons. The Evolution of Battle is a

2384
02:00:53,520 --> 02:00:56,080
Speaker 1: subtitle for the book, and you got a new version?

2385
02:00:56,560 --> 02:00:59,200
Speaker 1: I do. I have a version of it. That's the backstory.

2386
02:00:59,400 --> 02:01:02,960
Speaker 1: That's sort of the adventures doing research on animal weapons

2387
02:01:03,560 --> 02:01:05,920
Speaker 1: and how did somebody who starts out with muddy beats

2388
02:01:05,960 --> 02:01:09,440
Speaker 1: boots biology and reinforced on dung beetles end up visiting

2389
02:01:09,480 --> 02:01:12,000
Speaker 1: an aircraft carrier or given a talk in Washington, d C.

2390
02:01:12,240 --> 02:01:15,000
Speaker 1: Two top brass from the military. It's sort of a

2391
02:01:15,000 --> 02:01:18,920
Speaker 1: why basic science is relevant and surprising ways kind of story,

2392
02:01:19,040 --> 02:01:21,840
Speaker 1: and it's aimed at teenagers, sort of ten to twelve,

2393
02:01:21,960 --> 02:01:25,600
Speaker 1: twelve to fourteen year old kids, and so it's narrative nonfiction.

2394
02:01:25,680 --> 02:01:30,320
Speaker 1: Is called Beatle Battles One Scientist Journey of Adventure and Discovery,

2395
02:01:30,320 --> 02:01:33,400
Speaker 1: and it comes out in December. Beetle Battles, beat Battles,

2396
02:01:33,520 --> 02:01:36,000
Speaker 1: You got kids, look for it. I think it's orange

2397
02:01:36,000 --> 02:01:40,000
Speaker 1: on the cover, and you love it. You love the color.

2398
02:01:40,440 --> 02:01:42,080
Speaker 1: I don't love the color, but I love the book.

2399
02:01:42,200 --> 02:01:44,640
Speaker 1: I had a literally good time getting to unpack that story,

2400
02:01:44,680 --> 02:01:46,400
Speaker 1: and I had a really good editor to work with me.

2401
02:01:46,480 --> 02:01:50,480
Speaker 1: It's fun. It's really fun telling that story. Okay, thanks

2402
02:01:50,480 --> 02:01:55,960
Speaker 1: you guys. Yeah, we got a couple of quick things. Ready,

2403
02:01:56,240 --> 02:02:00,400
Speaker 1: I'm ready. Um, do us a favor. We bring you

2404
02:02:00,440 --> 02:02:05,120
Speaker 1: all this free stuff the show, right, get to listen. Um,

2405
02:02:05,160 --> 02:02:08,480
Speaker 1: you gotta do us favorite and go subscribe to our newsletter.

2406
02:02:09,520 --> 02:02:15,720
Speaker 1: You need to go to www dot The Meat Eater

2407
02:02:16,160 --> 02:02:18,280
Speaker 1: dot com and then you'll be you'll you'll see how

2408
02:02:18,320 --> 02:02:20,280
Speaker 1: to sign up for the newsletter. That's really important for us.

2409
02:02:20,280 --> 02:02:21,960
Speaker 1: Then you can kind of track everything that's going on

2410
02:02:22,560 --> 02:02:26,440
Speaker 1: with articles, podcasts, recipes, all kinds of stuff like that. Yeah.

2411
02:02:26,600 --> 02:02:29,280
Speaker 1: Then once a week you get a newsletter. And how often, Sam,

2412
02:02:29,360 --> 02:02:32,440
Speaker 1: would they get to read something that you wrote about

2413
02:02:32,480 --> 02:02:37,520
Speaker 1: every two weeks? Yeah, we we spent a lot of

2414
02:02:37,520 --> 02:02:40,360
Speaker 1: time on those newsletters. Man, it's not just slapped together.

2415
02:02:40,480 --> 02:02:43,440
Speaker 1: That's we're trying to bring really good, high quality stuff

2416
02:02:43,600 --> 02:02:46,240
Speaker 1: to to everybody, and we're tinkering with it all the

2417
02:02:46,240 --> 02:02:48,320
Speaker 1: time to make it even better. And I think, uh,

2418
02:02:48,480 --> 02:02:50,920
Speaker 1: most folks you follow it really enjoy it. Yeah, So

2419
02:02:51,120 --> 02:02:54,080
Speaker 1: get the newsletter and that's like everything that goes on um,

2420
02:02:54,200 --> 02:02:56,640
Speaker 1: new products, everything that goes on our space and also

2421
02:02:56,680 --> 02:02:59,000
Speaker 1: we haven't asked for a long time. Do us favorite too,

2422
02:02:59,000 --> 02:03:03,360
Speaker 1: and go go on iTunes and click the right most

2423
02:03:03,360 --> 02:03:05,320
Speaker 1: star it give us a five star review. You need that,

2424
02:03:05,360 --> 02:03:07,520
Speaker 1: and then you can follow us on social media. Can

2425
02:03:07,520 --> 02:03:11,520
Speaker 1: find me um on Instagram at Stephen Ranella. You can

2426
02:03:11,520 --> 02:03:14,040
Speaker 1: find Yanni on there. He used to be the Latvian

2427
02:03:14,120 --> 02:03:18,560
Speaker 1: hunter on Instagram and now I was just ready a Yanni. Yeah.

2428
02:03:18,600 --> 02:03:24,120
Speaker 1: I didn't want to make it confusing to Janice Poodless

2429
02:03:24,840 --> 02:03:27,840
Speaker 1: and there's an underscoing there. Really, why do you confuse it?

2430
02:03:28,160 --> 02:03:31,800
Speaker 1: Because it was early in Instagram, I guess when I

2431
02:03:31,800 --> 02:03:33,640
Speaker 1: started messing around and I saw a lot of other

2432
02:03:33,680 --> 02:03:36,200
Speaker 1: people that seemed to like have to have that underscored

2433
02:03:36,280 --> 02:03:39,040
Speaker 1: for a space in their name, like yours is just

2434
02:03:39,080 --> 02:03:41,280
Speaker 1: all straight through right, no spaces at all, because I

2435
02:03:41,720 --> 02:03:43,560
Speaker 1: didn't have mine up early. But it probably happens you

2436
02:03:43,600 --> 02:03:46,400
Speaker 1: went to get Janis Poodless and had been taken No,

2437
02:03:47,400 --> 02:03:48,760
Speaker 1: so you had to do the real. That's when you

2438
02:03:48,840 --> 02:03:54,200
Speaker 1: do the real, Yeah, authentic go So that didn't happen

2439
02:03:54,200 --> 02:03:55,800
Speaker 1: to you. You just didn't underscore for the hell of it.

2440
02:03:56,720 --> 02:03:59,600
Speaker 1: I thought that's what you did. Yeah, Oh wait, man,

2441
02:04:00,040 --> 02:04:04,480
Speaker 1: try to look saying how do they find you on Instagram?

2442
02:04:04,760 --> 02:04:09,600
Speaker 1: Sam Longer Media, no underscores, no nothing, Doug, you mess

2443
02:04:09,600 --> 02:04:14,520
Speaker 1: around social media too business. I don't care. I think

2444
02:04:14,560 --> 02:04:17,360
Speaker 1: better of you. If you don't, I don't. I like

2445
02:04:17,440 --> 02:04:20,440
Speaker 1: you more. Now I have an offer, but I don't

2446
02:04:20,480 --> 02:04:25,520
Speaker 1: do much with it, all right, Professor Emlyn, University of Montana,

2447
02:04:25,600 --> 02:04:29,480
Speaker 1: my home the matter. Uh yeah, Sam suo, thank you

2448
02:04:29,560 --> 02:04:45,520
Speaker 1: very much for joining us. My pleasure. Okay, everyone, thanks

2449
02:04:45,560 --> 02:04:47,600
Speaker 1: for listening. Again. And if I said it once, I

2450
02:04:47,640 --> 02:04:50,760
Speaker 1: said a thousand times. Please go check out our feature

2451
02:04:50,880 --> 02:04:55,800
Speaker 1: length documentary about hunting in America today called Stars in

2452
02:04:55,840 --> 02:04:58,360
Speaker 1: the Sky. You can find it at Stars in the

2453
02:04:58,400 --> 02:05:03,720
Speaker 1: Sky film dot colm. It is available for streaming and download. Again,

2454
02:05:03,920 --> 02:05:06,320
Speaker 1: do us yourself a good turn, do us a good

2455
02:05:06,320 --> 02:05:10,080
Speaker 1: turn Stars in the Sky. Find it at Stars in

2456
02:05:10,120 --> 02:05:13,440
Speaker 1: the Sky film dot com. You can stream it, you

2457
02:05:13,440 --> 02:05:16,720
Speaker 1: can download it, and you can watch it again and again.

2458
02:05:17,040 --> 02:05:17,400
Speaker 1: Thank you,