Speaker 1: This is me eat podcast coming at you shirtless, severely,
Speaker 1: bug bitten, and in my case, underwear listening. Don't eat podcast.
Speaker 1: You can't predict anything presented by first light. Go farther,
Speaker 1: stay longer, get right up top. If you hate dogs,
Speaker 1: quit listening. That almost makes me have to quit listening.
Speaker 1: But if I don't like, I'm conflicted. I'm gonna stick
Speaker 1: it out because maybe this's like even though I own one. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's complicated for me. If you love it, believe me,
Speaker 1: put a positive spin on it. If you love dogs,
Speaker 1: if you love our fairy friends, stick around. That's a bet.
Speaker 1: That's a better way to put it. Yeah. I was
Speaker 1: gonna say, if you ask hate dogs and just f
Speaker 1: you don't hate him. But my brother the other day
Speaker 1: was asking me he was he was disappointed to hear.
Speaker 1: We were kind of talking about if everyone in your family, Uh,
Speaker 1: I don't want to use the word died, but like
Speaker 1: went away. I would say, if everyone in my family
Speaker 1: went away, I would go get rid of this dog,
Speaker 1: our dog. I'd find someone that wanted a dog. And
Speaker 1: he just felt that was the most cutthroat, cold blooded
Speaker 1: thing you'd ever heard. Yeah, I've heard that. I heard
Speaker 1: that story through the grapevine, and I've personally retold that
Speaker 1: story at least three or four times. Sort of you
Speaker 1: tube run yeah, sort of like explaining who Stephen Ronnella is. Yeah, Well,
Speaker 1: what's your problem with dogs? You're just like extra work,
Speaker 1: extra baggage. I don't like going a lot. I'm gone
Speaker 1: a lot, and it's just another thing I got to
Speaker 1: think about. Yeah, your kids and your wife, but they're
Speaker 1: in this situation. They've um gone to heaven. I don't
Speaker 1: want to think of something bad happening to him. We're
Speaker 1: talking about the situation in which I now have to
Speaker 1: take care of the dog by myself and always be
Speaker 1: gaming out wanting an do with the thing. I think.
Speaker 1: I think that's sad, because you donna need a friend.
Speaker 1: If they're gone, will you still be here? I think
Speaker 1: you'd have a different relationship with your dog if it
Speaker 1: was a working dog, Steve, you know, if it was
Speaker 1: a dog that was doing stuff for you, it changes
Speaker 1: the whole dynamic. I almost just said you have had
Speaker 1: way more dogs and you'll ever have, but that's not true.
Speaker 1: But for most people in this room, I've had way
Speaker 1: more dogs than you will ever have. Okay, way more
Speaker 1: than you will ever have. You as an adult, have
Speaker 1: head way more dogs. As a kid, we had a
Speaker 1: dog every two weeks. That doesn't count. We always yeah,
Speaker 1: but that doesn't count. To get word from a puppy.
Speaker 1: Let it grow up and die and go to the
Speaker 1: vet and euthanize it. That's owning the dogs. We had
Speaker 1: a dog one time. Here's how this dog came in
Speaker 1: our life. My old man was driving down the road
Speaker 1: to go rabbit hunting and saw a beagle walking down
Speaker 1: the road and called the dog into his truck. And
Speaker 1: we had that dog for years, and then he gave
Speaker 1: it to our neighbor. Did you turn it into a
Speaker 1: rabbit dog? It did rabbit hum, but I don't think
Speaker 1: it ever got good. I think that's why he gave
Speaker 1: it to the neighbor. Another time, he goes and gets
Speaker 1: a dog and it would get it'd like to play thatch,
Speaker 1: so would take green tomatoes out of the garden. So
Speaker 1: my dad brings it to like he would bring things
Speaker 1: to like the farm, you know, like the euphemism kind
Speaker 1: of way to get rid of a dog. But this
Speaker 1: dog he literally brought to his friend's farm eleven miles away.
Speaker 1: A couple of days later, we're eating dinner and I
Speaker 1: look out the window and here comes this dog named
Speaker 1: a Kayla. Here comes his dog streaking past the window
Speaker 1: carrying a green tomato in his mouth. That's something bitch
Speaker 1: found our house. And then it went like to the farm.
Speaker 1: That was that there was just never whatever he brought
Speaker 1: it and didn't come back. Oh, he was ruthless, was dogs.
Speaker 1: He had a cat, Maud, that had babies in his
Speaker 1: shoe and then ate the babies out of his shoe. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I think about that, Steve. Did he wear the shoes again?
Speaker 1: I don't know. I don't know. I was very young.
Speaker 1: But then he had another cat that he tamed named
Speaker 1: fig the cat I told the story because he then
Speaker 1: he took it to a pig farmer to try to castrate,
Speaker 1: and the cat fought them all a lot of dogs, Steve,
Speaker 1: who all do we have joining us this morning for
Speaker 1: this lovely podcast? Why we have Ronnie Bam not my
Speaker 1: first employer, but my most um impactful employer that I
Speaker 1: ever had. Thank you, Steve learned more from Ronnie. I
Speaker 1: still use Ronnie's tools that I stole from him all
Speaker 1: those years ago, especially like my tools that say Ronnie
Speaker 1: on him. So you posted a picture of making a
Speaker 1: birdhouse with Jimmy with a pair of yellow tin snips,
Speaker 1: and then I spread it open on my phone and
Speaker 1: I could see Ronnie on it. She had no you
Speaker 1: didn't care. I have your drift pin. Then I stole
Speaker 1: from you. I have tin snips. I stole from you.
Speaker 1: I think I have one of your tape measures. Yeah,
Speaker 1: stuff great, great quality tools. Years later, I didn't get
Speaker 1: no Christmas bonus. I'm taking these tips. They never got
Speaker 1: a Christmas bonus. No, you paid us really well. Yeah,
Speaker 1: we tried to take care of you know. It was
Speaker 1: like in terms of when I worked for Ronnie. Remember
Speaker 1: one time, Um, I remember one time being in college
Speaker 1: and had spring break and then I played a week
Speaker 1: of hookie. So I took my spring break, played a
Speaker 1: week of hooky, and you sent us out of town
Speaker 1: to do a job and we and we worked eighty
Speaker 1: hours a week down there. It was some crazy job
Speaker 1: when it was like they had to get something done
Speaker 1: during shut down or something like that. I remember coming
Speaker 1: back from that and I didn't do ship for months.
Speaker 1: You had money. Yeah, I was just like I'm set.
Speaker 1: Do you remember that time I sent you and Danny
Speaker 1: to go pick up a welder. Why didn't even tell
Speaker 1: this story? Now, okay, this is We're gonna tell a
Speaker 1: story real quick. We did a job for a guy
Speaker 1: from West Virginia. I can't remember what Steady was from,
Speaker 1: but he was doing a job in Like and they
Speaker 1: were out of West Virginia and mill Rights out of
Speaker 1: West Virginia, and they contacted me for a support crew
Speaker 1: because they were behind, right, I think they were doing
Speaker 1: a job for am Way. Is that too much that
Speaker 1: I'm like they were doing a job for Amway. They
Speaker 1: called into Calvary they were fell behind in schedule, and
Speaker 1: so they brought in T. L. I. Ronnie's company. Then
Speaker 1: somehow he got into a situation where uh, he couldn't
Speaker 1: pay Ronnie. So Ronnie has us come into the office.
Speaker 1: We always had to be there at six, which is
Speaker 1: hard because I used to drink. But he has coming earlier.
Speaker 1: One day, me and my brother Danny, and he says,
Speaker 1: here's what you gotta do today there and he already
Speaker 1: four grand. Yeah, and you're gonna take the welder, his welder,
Speaker 1: and you're gonna bring it back here to this shop.
Speaker 1: But you had to go in early going before anybody
Speaker 1: showed up, and it'll just look like one of the crew.
Speaker 1: Once you had a hard hat on, nobody you could
Speaker 1: walk in and out of that building all day, big
Speaker 1: generator welder. Yeah, I still got it. So so we
Speaker 1: drove down there in the truck, hooked up the hooked
Speaker 1: up the welder to the truck, drove the truck home,
Speaker 1: put it round his barn, and Ronnie let us take
Speaker 1: eight hours pay. Always always a fair and equal opportunity player.
Speaker 1: And the guy later called you right, I think said
Speaker 1: like you said something like I think we're even or whatever,
Speaker 1: like you put it together. Yeah, and you're honest. Morning
Speaker 1: another dog man, Johnny. If you're so insistent on the intros,
Speaker 1: I feel like you'd be like a little more, you know,
Speaker 1: like I'm like in your honest and you just sit
Speaker 1: there anyway. But that's all it takes is for you
Speaker 1: to say, who's here? My name? I mean, I don't
Speaker 1: and I feel like I'm a regular enough guests that
Speaker 1: people like you know roughly who I am, what I'm
Speaker 1: doing here? Ronnie? Maybe would would you know, be deserved
Speaker 1: a little bit more introduction this morning? You want me
Speaker 1: to prow some more on there. Ronnie's the host of
Speaker 1: the Hunting Dog Podcast, the first hunting dog podcast ever,
Speaker 1: and he's been on The Mediator Show a couple of times,
Speaker 1: a couple of times, this podcast a bunch of times,
Speaker 1: four times. I've been on your show and pioneered, pioneered
Speaker 1: having a hunting dog podcast podcast I did. I was
Speaker 1: even on The Wild Within with you, way back in
Speaker 1: the way back long show business career fills here, Phil,
Speaker 1: they can't see you look way younger than his voice,
Speaker 1: way younger. Thanks, that's not true, because they did a
Speaker 1: contest where you had to draw Phil based on his
Speaker 1: voice only, and people drew a young man. No one
Speaker 1: drew an old man. Oh I would have went forty
Speaker 1: years old. Yeah, a very very scrawny looking nerd with
Speaker 1: a lot of with a very wimpy facial hair situation,
Speaker 1: which is true, that's the true part. Yeah. I had
Speaker 1: a shave halfway through the day yesterday. I'm jealous. You
Speaker 1: know what's interesting about that, Like shaving halfway through to day. Uh,
Speaker 1: my wife doesn't like my kids to put the same
Speaker 1: clothes on that they had on the day before. But
Speaker 1: I always wear my clothes multiple days in a row,
Speaker 1: and I was pointing out that let's say the earth
Speaker 1: spun slower than it spins, and it took the earth
Speaker 1: forty eight hours to rotate. Would everybody go home midday
Speaker 1: and change their clothes. No, they would run. They would
Speaker 1: run those clothes twice as long without changing them. So
Speaker 1: to wear your clothes twice, there's no way. Would be
Speaker 1: like noon and everybody like, well, I got you know,
Speaker 1: I gotta run home and change. I've had these clothes
Speaker 1: on for X hours. Do you know what I'm saying?
Speaker 1: I do? But nighttime just a natural reset point. It
Speaker 1: just makes sense. I take them all off, I throw
Speaker 1: them down to the ground next to my bed. I
Speaker 1: wake up and put them all back on again. Sometimes
Speaker 1: I wake up, put them all back on again, take
Speaker 1: them off, take a shower, put them back on again,
Speaker 1: and then come to work. Kids are generally just more
Speaker 1: sticky and dirty in general. I think. I mean, I've
Speaker 1: been wearing this this, I even watched this pair of
Speaker 1: jeans and I don't know a couple of weeks. Now
Speaker 1: you know what I'm talking about. Yeah, it's got sticky
Speaker 1: bun residue all over. If your kids wore those jeans,
Speaker 1: you're right, Oh yeah, exactly. Well, there'd be um, I
Speaker 1: hate to say it, but there'd be some kind of
Speaker 1: poop on them. Hold of your kids until a certain age.
Speaker 1: I've got a two year old, so that, yeah, that's true.
Speaker 1: But then I've got an eight year old. The poop
Speaker 1: problem with the eight year old is pretty much kind
Speaker 1: they were they wrap it up after a while. But
Speaker 1: you know what's funny is um anotherhing. I was telling
Speaker 1: my kids, like, you know, they're in that phase like
Speaker 1: poop stuff is funny, like people pooping their fans. It's funny.
Speaker 1: It's embarrassing. But yeah, I was like, you people that
Speaker 1: are people most inclined to have encounters with poop, Like
Speaker 1: I think you guys would be very accepting of it.
Speaker 1: It's like a real part of your Yeah, like a
Speaker 1: couple of years ago, it is a daily part of
Speaker 1: your life to have it on you. But now you
Speaker 1: act like it's so disgusting and funny. You're like, you're
Speaker 1: it's a little too close for you to be dogging on.
Speaker 1: It's true, Like, wait, go ten years without having an accident,
Speaker 1: then come tell me how funny it is. Um Clay
Speaker 1: nucom newcomb Clay, how's your new show going? Man, it's
Speaker 1: going good. I know you don't ride an elevators ever,
Speaker 1: but can you give me an elevator pitch for your show? Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's called Burgerase Podcast and it's a documentary style narrative
Speaker 1: storytelling podcast where we cover all types of stuff. So
Speaker 1: it's it's hunting, but it's also rural culture, a lot
Speaker 1: of a lot of fun stuff. Man, what was the
Speaker 1: first episode? Tell everybody myth of the southern mountain lion
Speaker 1: so on that it's it's a it's an efficient listen
Speaker 1: as we say, it's it's always gonna be under an hour,
Speaker 1: and we interviewed uh to eyewitness sighting people that have
Speaker 1: seen mountain lions in the South. We interviewed a large
Speaker 1: carnivore biologist that so we got the real data of
Speaker 1: whether they're here or not. We interviewed a psychologist about
Speaker 1: why people see things when they really don't. And as fun,
Speaker 1: it's it's a lot of fun. Man Um Hayden, Sam,
Speaker 1: how do these permatially name Salmon? I was right, Yeah, okay,
Speaker 1: you've never been on the show before. I have not, Man,
Speaker 1: you work here, though, I do tell people what you do.
Speaker 1: He fiddles with Phil's buttons. Yeah, he fiddles Phil's knobs
Speaker 1: up literally, not figuratively. See where it goes. Yeah, I
Speaker 1: had it sound and do audio engineering stuff. I get
Speaker 1: to do all sorts of auxiliary auxiliary stuff. And you
Speaker 1: you tickle the ivories a little bit yourself. Oh sure do? Yeah,
Speaker 1: you bet. What's the fun fact about your last name?
Speaker 1: Oh it means it means fisherman in Syrian. Yeah, stomach
Speaker 1: is fish is fish in Arabic. Yeah, but you're not Syrian.
Speaker 1: I am serious. Talk got the Syrian last name? You're serious?
Speaker 1: You're Serriu. Yeah, yeah, you didn't just pick that because
Speaker 1: he'd liked to fish. Yeah, the su walk me through?
Speaker 1: Can you quickly walk me through your lineage? How how
Speaker 1: it worked while y'all are in the America? Oh? Hell um,
Speaker 1: I just know that my great grandfather was at least
Speaker 1: half Syrian. I don't know if he was full of
Speaker 1: Syrians or not, but it comes from my dad's side
Speaker 1: and uh yeah Syrian name said say it again? Sam?
Speaker 1: I mean, I'm sure I've American eyed the hell out
Speaker 1: of it at this point. I don't know if there's
Speaker 1: like some sort of yeah, I have an article, Um,
Speaker 1: that was my dad's stuff. It's about his uncle being
Speaker 1: shot and killed by a cop. I remember the cops
Speaker 1: name was Philip to me, but um, my dad's uncle,
Speaker 1: who my dad knew, Um, his name was spelled completely
Speaker 1: differently than mine. Yeah, my dad said, oh yeah, it
Speaker 1: was a split. Some of them were I on the end,
Speaker 1: and then some of them went A on the end
Speaker 1: and you just kind of chills, which start chills? Which
Speaker 1: version you wanted back in those days? You know? Kran
Speaker 1: is here? Of course have you heard from the KRN
Speaker 1: aside from asking Hayden about his last name? Now you
Speaker 1: guys are tearing it up. Makes you glad if you're
Speaker 1: doing these intros and then bro, I bet what watch what?
Speaker 1: Watch the watch how Zippy Brodio will say something, Now
Speaker 1: what do you want me to say? There you go? Um, okay,
Speaker 1: now we all if you listen to our recent episode
Speaker 1: with Dr David Meltzer, dogs domesticated twelve years ago, our
Speaker 1: first domesticated animal by a long shot. It's with genetics
Speaker 1: has become um. You know, people spend a lot of
Speaker 1: time thinking about it because it's it's we're able to
Speaker 1: answer long standing questions we've had about how this came
Speaker 1: to be. But we got around the dogs way before
Speaker 1: we got around a cattle. Sheet horses, pigs been our
Speaker 1: bodies for a long long time. What's funny here is
Speaker 1: how many people like didn't only recently got a dog?
Speaker 1: You were only recently got a dog? Or did you
Speaker 1: have a bunch before? Oh yeah, this is I mean,
Speaker 1: you've always had a dog? Mingus is my first as
Speaker 1: an adult dog? Phil, I've got a dog. I never
Speaker 1: had a dog as a kid, but my wife didn't.
Speaker 1: She tucked me into getting one, uh after we got married,
Speaker 1: So I've had her for four years now ish. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Point being real experts here. Oh yeah, top top grade.
Speaker 1: Teren's got a whopper of a dog. Oh yeah, Charns
Speaker 1: gotta you've never had a dog before? No. I grew
Speaker 1: up in the city and my parents never allowed Uh yeah.
Speaker 1: I would go bring him into pet stores, asked to
Speaker 1: hold onto a dog, and then start crying and trying
Speaker 1: to manipulate them, but they never fell for it. So
Speaker 1: this is your first dog? First first actual do get
Speaker 1: four pound dog? Uh? Couple a couple of corrections real quick,
Speaker 1: or one major correction, and I feel like I'm right.
Speaker 1: This guy is the guy that rowed in his pissed,
Speaker 1: and he deserves to be pissed. We had a thing
Speaker 1: about that, so card to explain. Now, who can explain this?
Speaker 1: Let me? I explain it once. I got sick of
Speaker 1: explaining it even then. Normally, when you buy a fishing license,
Speaker 1: um normally to buy a fishing license, the license fee
Speaker 1: goes to those states fishing game agency. So you go
Speaker 1: down and buy a fishing license that winds up being
Speaker 1: dedicated funding for fishing wildlife management. It is. It's not
Speaker 1: like when you pay your taxes and they just do what.
Speaker 1: You know, your taxes going to a general fund and
Speaker 1: the state does whatever the whatever it does with it. Right,
Speaker 1: It's not like you can pick I'd like my taxes
Speaker 1: to go to UH infrastructure reform. You know, it just
Speaker 1: goes into a general fund and they do their deal.
Speaker 1: Fishing licenses are different because their agency specifics. So you
Speaker 1: you buy a license, it funds the agency, and then
Speaker 1: there's mechanisms in place that make it the states that
Speaker 1: the de incentivized states from robbing that general fund, I'm sorry,
Speaker 1: from robbing that specific fish and game fund. We had
Speaker 1: a guy right in and saying that the Massachusetts never
Speaker 1: used to require saltwater license. They require saltwater license now.
Speaker 1: And he was telling us how that saltwater license fee
Speaker 1: goes to the general fund where it can be diverted
Speaker 1: into all kinds of bs and doesn't stay specific specific.
Speaker 1: In Gloucester, everybody told me, I said that wrong. Another
Speaker 1: guy rolling and said that guy is quote completely incorrect.
Speaker 1: Explain crin. So guy number one from Gloucester, Gloucester called
Speaker 1: Gloucester one, and then there's Gloucester two. Gloucester two says
Speaker 1: that in fact, all the money collected from saltwater licenses
Speaker 1: go into a dedicated fund and that a third of
Speaker 1: the money collected must go to improving public access. He
Speaker 1: goes on to say it would have taken you less
Speaker 1: than one minute to look up and fact check this
Speaker 1: issue before broadcasting false information on your podcast Salty And
Speaker 1: then he says he's a frequent listener, but he's right,
Speaker 1: He's right. I don't know why, and when I was
Speaker 1: reading it, in the back of my head was like,
Speaker 1: we should probably look into this. My grand points out
Speaker 1: that she's checked it and had someone else check it
Speaker 1: and timed those people, and it took those people longer
Speaker 1: than a minute to check it, but not too much long.
Speaker 1: So the guy's right. So if he had said it
Speaker 1: would taken you not much longer than a minute, he
Speaker 1: had been correct. Uh. The one thing, though, I called
Speaker 1: the Massachusetts Division of Marine Fisheries and I'm waiting for
Speaker 1: a call back because I couldn't find where they stated
Speaker 1: that one third of the money must go to fishing access. Yeah,
Speaker 1: so I don't want to put that bit of unchecked
Speaker 1: information across to all of our podcast listeners just yet.
Speaker 1: When the guy when Gloucester one called his state tax Achusetts,
Speaker 1: which is fine, I should have been like I detected
Speaker 1: by US, I detect a blind spot. Uh. A friend
Speaker 1: of mine, this is this is, this is something for
Speaker 1: your Ronnie here his specialties dogs, but he has he
Speaker 1: has a minor, his major's dogs, but as a minor
Speaker 1: getting in trouble to T s A. Um A guy,
Speaker 1: a guy wrote in a friend of mine. I want
Speaker 1: to say his name. He uh he he recently got
Speaker 1: caught by T. S A. He didn't mean to be
Speaker 1: doing this, but he had an unloaded thirty eight pistol
Speaker 1: in his carry on. I feel his pain. Thousand bucks
Speaker 1: got his gun back. Ronnie I lost mine, and tell
Speaker 1: everybody what happened to you. This is a warning tale. Well,
Speaker 1: I had some I'll try to do it, not like
Speaker 1: my mom. I'll try to do a short version. But
Speaker 1: I had invertly taken the twenty two revolver and stuck
Speaker 1: it into my dry bag, and I was going out
Speaker 1: to Utah real quickly that inadvertently, well, it was like
Speaker 1: I had to move it somewhere. There was there was
Speaker 1: somebody coming to my kennel. I just didn't want to
Speaker 1: pistol lay in there. So I just kind of like
Speaker 1: slam dunked it up into a shelf. Well, I actually
Speaker 1: threw it into my dry bag because you thought they'd
Speaker 1: see the pistol and be alarmed. Yeah, I mean they're
Speaker 1: coming over to look at dogs, you know, and like,
Speaker 1: why is this guy got a pistol lay not on
Speaker 1: the counter. So anyway, I looked at the weather report
Speaker 1: before my flight. I saw that was gonna be raining,
Speaker 1: and judging in the rain sucks. So I grabbed all
Speaker 1: my gear judging dogs. Yeah, and I grab all my
Speaker 1: ring gear and I stick it in that bag without
Speaker 1: checking that bag. So now that bag, that's how it
Speaker 1: happened that bag has got a loaded twenty two pistol
Speaker 1: with a six inch barrel on it, and it's a
Speaker 1: large it almost looks like a cult pythe and almost
Speaker 1: it's huge gun even though it's a twenty two. And
Speaker 1: I had my first time I got that pre check
Speaker 1: where you don't have to take your shoes off, and
Speaker 1: I was feeling all kind of smarty. I was like,
Speaker 1: looking at me, I got my shoes on, and and
Speaker 1: I'm kind of I'm leaning on that conveyor, you know,
Speaker 1: and I'm kind of judging the conveyor, like, oh, that's
Speaker 1: pretty good. Rollers on this conveyored lines kind of building
Speaker 1: up behind me. And then the guy looking up at
Speaker 1: the screen, he turns the screen so I can see it.
Speaker 1: He goes, is this your bag? I don't go up there,
Speaker 1: and I can see everything but the serial number, and
Speaker 1: I I'm like, I even told the guy said I
Speaker 1: said yes, and it's loaded, because I'm like, I better
Speaker 1: just get it clear. And he said, well, we'll stay
Speaker 1: right there, and they diverted the rest of the line.
Speaker 1: You know, they had the people who didn't have to
Speaker 1: take your shoes off had to go on the other line.
Speaker 1: They weren't they weren't happy with me, a little salty,
Speaker 1: and I was probably at that little conveyor stand there
Speaker 1: where you get your stuff back for ten minutes. All
Speaker 1: three different people came up and questioned me did they
Speaker 1: coffee and stuff? Right there? Right once? Once? Like the
Speaker 1: third person said, of you have you? Did you do this?
Speaker 1: Did you blah blah. They just had this pet bunch
Speaker 1: a bunch of answers, like if you you know, it's
Speaker 1: like getting those COVID questions nowadays. There's like three questions
Speaker 1: they ask you. And she said, okay, well we're gonna
Speaker 1: take I don't know what do you mean? What kind
Speaker 1: of questions? Have you had suicidal thoughts? Oh did you
Speaker 1: have are you suffering from any family? Blah blah? Do
Speaker 1: you have anything against the airline? They all have the
Speaker 1: same three questions. It was a weird I can't I need,
Speaker 1: I need interject something you make me think of. I
Speaker 1: can't let it go on said we uh, maybe took
Speaker 1: our kids down in the emergency room too often. And
Speaker 1: one day they like, what are the strengths and weaknesses
Speaker 1: of your marriage? I was like, oh my god, really
Speaker 1: is this where this is at right now? Oh? Yeah,
Speaker 1: that I that's the one thing that I hate. We've
Speaker 1: had to take our kids to the emergency room a
Speaker 1: couple of times and they they give you like a
Speaker 1: little scan. They look at both of the parents. They
Speaker 1: asked the kids very straightforward questions. And you want, you want,
Speaker 1: you want to get mad. You're just playing into their hands.
Speaker 1: You want to be like, dude, mind your own business.
Speaker 1: But they're like, but if I say that, then that
Speaker 1: I probably get handcuffed or something. It's like a three
Speaker 1: year old kid and they're asking me, so, how exactly
Speaker 1: did it? So what happened? Explained to me what happened.
Speaker 1: They separated, They separated us to tell the story. Yeah, awful,
Speaker 1: it's the worst feeling. They didn't separate me. They just
Speaker 1: one one after the other came up and asked me
Speaker 1: the same three questions. And then the late There was
Speaker 1: a lady police officer that worked at the Grand Rapids Airport.
Speaker 1: They have their own little office. Remember that office you
Speaker 1: talked about on the subway, Steve, that you didn't know
Speaker 1: when I got caught with a knife, like, but you
Speaker 1: never know, there's an office there. It was just like
Speaker 1: that the airport. It was like the secret door and
Speaker 1: there's this police department that I never knew existed inside
Speaker 1: the airport. Always reminded me of that subway thing of you.
Speaker 1: So I go into you know, she puts handcuffs on me,
Speaker 1: and I gotta walk past everybody and we go out
Speaker 1: to this little little place for the police department. Is
Speaker 1: they coff you behind her in front of your back behind? Yeah,
Speaker 1: I started getting like weird itches. You couldn't No, I
Speaker 1: was just petrified. I could barely walk. I could barely walk.
Speaker 1: And they bring me into this back room and I'm
Speaker 1: sitting down. She uncuffs my cuffs, then handcuffs my left
Speaker 1: arm to the wall, like to a short handcuff to
Speaker 1: the wall, and I'm sitting in a chair just like this,
Speaker 1: and and then she'd got a piece of paper and
Speaker 1: I got to write a statement, and I'm like, well
Speaker 1: I'm left handed. So instead of like I always felt like,
Speaker 1: well you didn't think this through, because all they went
Speaker 1: and got like three other officers cuffs and made like
Speaker 1: a chain of cuffs instead of switching hands, instead of
Speaker 1: switching hands, instead of like okay, uncuff him, put his
Speaker 1: right arm on the table and let him right left. No,
Speaker 1: they went got like three other give me your cuffs,
Speaker 1: give me like a daisy chain of handcuffs and daisy chain.
Speaker 1: So now I'm writing down what happened. She's got my wallet.
Speaker 1: She asked me what I was doing, and I told
Speaker 1: her I was going to do a dog I was
Speaker 1: judging some dogs out in Utah. And then she said
Speaker 1: what kind of dogs? And I told her bird dogs
Speaker 1: and her eyes lit up, and I was like, oh,
Speaker 1: I'm I might I might have it here, you know.
Speaker 1: But I thought for sure, like my life was over
Speaker 1: because if I had I assumed it was a felony,
Speaker 1: just because why wouldn't it be right? And turned out
Speaker 1: to be. I had a loot. I lost my gun.
Speaker 1: It was a misdemeanor. But I did end up in jail.
Speaker 1: They had to give me over to Kent County Police.
Speaker 1: They took me to jail. I had to sit into
Speaker 1: drunk drunk tank for three hours until the sergeant came
Speaker 1: back to post. But like the funniest part of the
Speaker 1: story would be my daughter dropped me off the airport
Speaker 1: because Kelsey worked right right at forty Patterson and she
Speaker 1: dropped me off. And so two o'clock in the afternoon,
Speaker 1: I'm calling her up and she goes, yeah, Dad, what's up?
Speaker 1: And I said, I need you to come get me.
Speaker 1: She goes, well, you're either in Utah or you had
Speaker 1: a connector in Atlanta. Well, what's what's going on? I go, no,
Speaker 1: I'm at the Kent County jail. I need you to
Speaker 1: kill me get me. And she's just like she was like,
Speaker 1: I'm like, hello, is this Mike says Mike hut and
Speaker 1: she's I'm like Kelsey. She goes I said, She goes,
Speaker 1: did you call my I said, don't call mom, don't
Speaker 1: just come to the Kent County jail. I gotta get
Speaker 1: back to the airport and get my stuff. So that
Speaker 1: was That was a bad morning. But then he had
Speaker 1: a court date. I had a court date and I
Speaker 1: never actually went in front of the judge. My lawyer
Speaker 1: went in front of the whatever, the person that works
Speaker 1: with the judge, and uh, they did all their things.
Speaker 1: I sat out in the hallway both times I went
Speaker 1: to court. I don't know what they were talking about.
Speaker 1: So I feel I feel like I remember part of
Speaker 1: the story you're not mentioned where you then said your
Speaker 1: lawyer like, what about the gun? He's like, forget about Well, yeah,
Speaker 1: once I realized I was getting them this. Once I
Speaker 1: realized there was a misdemeanor, I said, well, chance I
Speaker 1: get that gun back. That's like asking a doc if
Speaker 1: you don't have to take your heart medicine, do I
Speaker 1: have to keep taking this? Uh? And you didn't pay
Speaker 1: much money? Not? You know, not really you know that
Speaker 1: story about when we had a jet boil canist during it?
Speaker 1: What was our initial fine? The lawyers four? And so
Speaker 1: this guy he paid half of a week for a
Speaker 1: jet ball canister. Paid he paid half for a pistol
Speaker 1: what you paid for a jet bawl canister. But he
Speaker 1: had an unloaded one. I don't know if that matters though,
Speaker 1: I don't know. I don't know about severity. But my
Speaker 1: oh yeah, here's the other part that was funny. So
Speaker 1: I'm sitting in that room, locked up against the wall,
Speaker 1: and as I walked into that room, there's this little
Speaker 1: i'd call it almost like a closet, and there's a
Speaker 1: shooting sand trap, like so you can just charge the
Speaker 1: firearms and they're all ready for this stuff apparently. And
Speaker 1: I see my pistol like in this uh like holder right,
Speaker 1: and it's pointing in to the sand and I walked
Speaker 1: by and I'm sitting unlocked up and I see a
Speaker 1: cop walk in there. Now this was like, you know
Speaker 1: what a top break pistol is. The back peep site
Speaker 1: comes up, it breaks open like a shotgun, right, and
Speaker 1: this cop is in there and he pokes his head
Speaker 1: around the corner. He goes, yeah, he goes, how do
Speaker 1: you open it? Things? I'm like, push up on the
Speaker 1: back of for your site. He goes back in there,
Speaker 1: but thirty second goes thanks because he didn't want to
Speaker 1: go to his sergeant and go like, I gotta go
Speaker 1: to I don't know how to get the bullets out
Speaker 1: of it though, I don't know where the lever is.
Speaker 1: I got held up by the police and the anchorage
Speaker 1: report for shotgun shells. Oh, they took you away from
Speaker 1: the line, and you know that happened to me there too.
Speaker 1: You know, you gave me something. I forgot to take
Speaker 1: him out of my bag. But they were they knew,
Speaker 1: yeah it happened. They were They were kind of like,
Speaker 1: I really like you dumbass, Now we gotta go through
Speaker 1: all these things. Was like, we gotta do through all
Speaker 1: this And obviously what you're telling us is like you
Speaker 1: went tarming and hunting, which is what I did and
Speaker 1: had like a bird shot. And then their their attitude
Speaker 1: was more that you've just cost us like a bunch
Speaker 1: of filling papers out we were going to have a
Speaker 1: cigarette break and now we have to take care of
Speaker 1: your dumbass. Yeah, it was. It was. No, there was
Speaker 1: no serious questioning, you know, o question of legality from
Speaker 1: a listener. It's about our quid pro quid pro after Ukraine,
Speaker 1: the Ukraine scandal. It's hard to say quid pro quo
Speaker 1: because it got forever tied to the Ukraine scandal. Anyways,
Speaker 1: we're not scandal, the scandal that wasn't the scandal anyways. Uh,
Speaker 1: we're talking about sturgeon scandal, the sturgeon scandal that occurred
Speaker 1: in where are you any Wisconsin. Yes, biologists are like
Speaker 1: taking you know, sturgeon row. Caviar is very valuable and
Speaker 1: there's biologists that extract the row and there's various just
Speaker 1: just crash course quickn't mind. Yeah, there was. They have
Speaker 1: check stations when when these sturgeon come in. They had
Speaker 1: every sturgeon that spear needs to be checked, and there
Speaker 1: was there were some coolers that were at that check
Speaker 1: station that were specifically four eggs it were then going
Speaker 1: to processors, and then it looks as if maybe people
Speaker 1: that worked for the game and fish were then getting
Speaker 1: cured finished jars of caviare in return, and so you
Speaker 1: had this trade, you know, of goods for a finished product,
Speaker 1: which became illegal. At the same time, there was also
Speaker 1: some folks that we did some work with, um Vic
Speaker 1: and uh Mary Lou that were similarly basically cleaning up
Speaker 1: eggs for people, curing them and then giving them back
Speaker 1: to them, but also holding onto a small portion of
Speaker 1: it for themselves. So again sort of getting paid by
Speaker 1: you know, holding onto it, which you can't do right.
Speaker 1: So so I don't think we've seen what's gonna come
Speaker 1: of it yet. I haven't heard any updates about that story.
Speaker 1: But anyways, folks gotten in trouble for bartering, trading, selling
Speaker 1: wild games. Am I correct and saying though that this
Speaker 1: is just something that went on there. It wasn't like
Speaker 1: they were trying to hide it. It was just something
Speaker 1: like that's kind of part of the culture there. Certainly
Speaker 1: with Vick and Mary Lou, it was very very much
Speaker 1: like that. I think they had been warned in the
Speaker 1: past and it was just sort of like, oh no,
Speaker 1: we're just helping out the community, you know, And this
Speaker 1: wasn't a black market. Yeah. I remember when I first
Speaker 1: heard about it. I don't know why I've talked about this.
Speaker 1: I first heard about it was like, oh, yeah, he
Speaker 1: was selling eggs to the Russians, which gets your hackles up,
Speaker 1: you know. Yeah, so you started rolling the Russians into
Speaker 1: something Russian mafia. Yeah, like, oh man, you know you're
Speaker 1: picturing like guns and whatnot, but I want to be
Speaker 1: And it was the neighbors by the Russians. I meant
Speaker 1: his neighbors. I don't know. Guy rolled in about this though,
Speaker 1: considering that you can't barter, trade sell wild game with
Speaker 1: some exceptions which will not get into uh, he lays
Speaker 1: out this little conundrum he's in. They play. His town
Speaker 1: has a Tiddly Winks tournament um and a meat raffle. Now,
Speaker 1: he says, you'll know what I'm talking about, but I
Speaker 1: don't know what either of those things are. They have
Speaker 1: a Tiddley Winks tournament and a meat raffle in his town.
Speaker 1: I can speak to meat raffle, but not Tiddley Winks tournament.
Speaker 1: You can run didn't you ever play Tiddley Winks when
Speaker 1: you were kidding? I use it like, um, you know,
Speaker 1: sitting around like like if I was if I caught
Speaker 1: Phil not working, he would be like, oh yeah, I'd
Speaker 1: be like, you spend the who day whistling Dixie down there?
Speaker 1: You might say you can spend the whole day down
Speaker 1: there playing tilly winks. Tiddley Winks is an actual like
Speaker 1: game with these little plastic dick um saucers and you
Speaker 1: push down on, you flip the you flip them up.
Speaker 1: You make a move around the board tid winks. Yeah,
Speaker 1: somebody google that, don't we have a Jamie here kind
Speaker 1: of blank expression. No, I accepted it the game. I
Speaker 1: know it's a game. I don't know what it is.
Speaker 1: And I don't know how a town gets together to
Speaker 1: have a Tiddley Wink turnaments, But COVID just winds up
Speaker 1: being a COVID story. COVID causes a cancelation of the
Speaker 1: town wide Tiddley Winks tournament meat Raffle put him and
Speaker 1: some close friends decided to get together anyway and have
Speaker 1: a private Tiddley Winks tournament and a private meat Raffle
Speaker 1: Tiddley Winks sounds worse every time you say it. So
Speaker 1: normally one of these meat raffles. So normally everybody, apparently
Speaker 1: everyone from the town. I'm gonna get one of these going.
Speaker 1: Everyone from the town goes to the butcher's shop. They
Speaker 1: all buy meat. You bring the meat. It's a great idea.
Speaker 1: You bring the meat back and put it on the table,
Speaker 1: and then you sell raffle tickets, draw raffle tickets. Brodie's
Speaker 1: number comes up, like, I say, oh, I pulled the
Speaker 1: hat out number one. Bro He's like, my god, I'm
Speaker 1: number one. So then Brody goes up and he'll be like, damn,
Speaker 1: I'm taking the pork wine. That's a meat raffle. Okay.
Speaker 1: Since they had to do the small scale version and
Speaker 1: all of his buddies hunting fish, they all brought game,
Speaker 1: wild game, and then had a sturgeon and then had
Speaker 1: a thing. So he brought down two pounds of smoked
Speaker 1: sturgeon and walked out with two pounds of vendison loin.
Speaker 1: Should he anticipate being arrested, that's a great question. I
Speaker 1: hope we don't. I hope our emails don't get subpoena
Speaker 1: so they can find out who he is tiley winks.
Speaker 1: I'm reading a Wikipedia page on it right now. You
Speaker 1: wouldn't believe it. The small disks are called winks. Uh.
Speaker 1: There's a pot which is the target, and a collection
Speaker 1: of squidgers which are also disks. To shoot a wink
Speaker 1: into flight by flicking the squidder across the top of
Speaker 1: a wink and then over its edge. It's it's like
Speaker 1: something had of Harry Potter. Just gonna see that sounds
Speaker 1: sid Harry. This game has been was invented in eighteen eight.
Speaker 1: They got it nailed. Yeah, and and okay, I'm just
Speaker 1: gonna finish with this tidty winks. And sometimes consider a
Speaker 1: simple minded, minded, frivolous children's game a strategic adult game
Speaker 1: wait for it. However, the modern competitive adult game of
Speaker 1: tiddley Winks made a strong comeback at the University of
Speaker 1: Cambridge in nine. Modern game uses far more complex rules
Speaker 1: and a consistent set of high grade equipment. So back
Speaker 1: in the day, if you had a child that was
Speaker 1: an academic, you just put him in the yard with
Speaker 1: a cup and some tiddley winks. He would just kill
Speaker 1: some hours and you could get some laundry done. And
Speaker 1: as long as he learns how to fold his raffle
Speaker 1: tickets right, he will have plenty of meat from the
Speaker 1: meat raffle. He'll be fine. Got rolling in with a
Speaker 1: poem for Kevin Murphy. Who someone get ready to read
Speaker 1: the poem. I'll tee it up. And someone else has
Speaker 1: read the poem. You gotta read the poem. I read
Speaker 1: it to my kids this morning. Okay. A listener had
Speaker 1: heard our episode with Kevin Murphy about trying to trail
Speaker 1: uh cotton tail rabbits out in the desert with dogs
Speaker 1: from Kentucky. Um and how and we heard this from
Speaker 1: Jake grib too, kind of our one of our resident
Speaker 1: dog experts that the dog lives at a certain climate,
Speaker 1: certain humidity, certain foliage. It seems to become like accustomed
Speaker 1: to those things, and then it tracks and those things
Speaker 1: and when you move them, like you can take a
Speaker 1: dog from a wet place and move them to a desert,
Speaker 1: just throws him out of way, takes him while he's
Speaker 1: gotta kind of relearn all of his tricks, whateverything smells
Speaker 1: like and how everything goes. So this guy came up
Speaker 1: with he calls it an a fourism anecdote colloquialism, or
Speaker 1: whatever you choose to call it. Hit a grin. This
Speaker 1: one's for you. Kevin Murphy. If on the morning breeze
Speaker 1: you can smell your dog's daily habit, it's a damn
Speaker 1: good day to go hunt. Rabbit explained that through Ronnie,
Speaker 1: if you can smell, No one likes that poem. I
Speaker 1: can't wait till we get that dial in here to
Speaker 1: tell people, to tell what people think is good or not.
Speaker 1: I thought i'd laugh track. No, no, no, we're getting
Speaker 1: in We're getting a machine where everybody in here has
Speaker 1: a dial they turned up and down to tell how
Speaker 1: interested they aren't. Lights and light in the center of
Speaker 1: the table so people know when they're being born. Cream
Speaker 1: would have I would have cranked her. But um. Another
Speaker 1: piece of feedback that came out of our Rabbit conversation
Speaker 1: with Kevin Murphy is the guy wrote in about this
Speaker 1: interesting practice that takes place in the Lake Okachobe region
Speaker 1: and the sugar cane fields. And we're right now kind
Speaker 1: of half watching some of these videos and it's fascinating
Speaker 1: saying that when they when they burn off the fields
Speaker 1: and then also kind of like they're harvesting, but also
Speaker 1: burning off the cane fields. It's common practice for local
Speaker 1: kids to come out with a stick in a in
Speaker 1: a sack or a pillow case and to fill those
Speaker 1: pillow cases up with rabbits that they just chase after
Speaker 1: and whap with a stick, just hit them like they're
Speaker 1: like you'd kill a fish. And you watch this thing,
Speaker 1: it's like just just it's like a tap almost, and
Speaker 1: you kids run around handfuls of rabbits. I have no
Speaker 1: idea on the legality of it, like if they have
Speaker 1: a seasoned method to take I don't know, but it's
Speaker 1: but yeah, you can go online and find these these
Speaker 1: kids around these rabbits up. It's really interesting. I like
Speaker 1: the local legend stuff. What's the local legend? Well, look,
Speaker 1: legend is the best football players developed their skills as
Speaker 1: small children chasing rabbits. Because there's so many pro football players,
Speaker 1: collegiate football players that are good that come out of
Speaker 1: this small region of Florida where they grow sugarcane and
Speaker 1: have this practice and you watch them run down the rabbits.
Speaker 1: It's it's athletic. Yeah, I can't. I mean, you know,
Speaker 1: I've seen plenty of rabbits running around and uh, I
Speaker 1: haven't really chased them, but I can imagine I could
Speaker 1: that I would not be able to run one down.
Speaker 1: I'm looking at an NFL film, official NFL films. Uh
Speaker 1: looks like Travis Benjamin and Generes Jenkins. So Giants player
Speaker 1: and Chargers player. It looks like they grew up doing
Speaker 1: this and uh hunting sugarcane exactly, and then they're in
Speaker 1: the NFL. So there you have it. If it was
Speaker 1: just one person, that could be a fluke. But it's
Speaker 1: too Clay, tell tell everybody about this. This uh, this
Speaker 1: this this raccoon dog. So a couple of weeks ago,
Speaker 1: or at least it came out a couple of weeks
Speaker 1: ago on social media, there was a coon dog in Tennessee.
Speaker 1: They got stuck fifty feet up in a tree and
Speaker 1: firefighters had to come rescue it. Do by that, Oh yeah,
Speaker 1: oh yeah it Uh you can watch the video, you
Speaker 1: can search for it. But Steve, that's pretty common. Um,
Speaker 1: there are in in all the hound world, there are
Speaker 1: dogs that are exceptionally good climbers that find themselves and
Speaker 1: just advantageous situations for climbing a tree. Be at the tree,
Speaker 1: is leaning, or be at the tree is a species
Speaker 1: that has really grabby bark where they can just climb.
Speaker 1: And then some dogs are just incredible climbers. And so
Speaker 1: now I've never seen a dog up that high. And
Speaker 1: it's so the story was in Tennessee that they had
Speaker 1: to call the fire department to come get this dog
Speaker 1: out of the tree. What's unclear to me is this
Speaker 1: dog must have treated a coon pretty close to the
Speaker 1: road or you know, somewhere where these guys could get
Speaker 1: to it. And then the video shows them lowering the
Speaker 1: dog out of the tree on some kind of pulley
Speaker 1: system and they yeah, so some human had to go
Speaker 1: up there, hook up the pulley system and then hooked
Speaker 1: the dog to it and they kind of used it
Speaker 1: was pretty it's pretty good. They it looked like a
Speaker 1: chest harness on the dog, but it wasn't. It was
Speaker 1: a rope that they tied themselves and then they lowered
Speaker 1: the dog down. They didn't show that part. So I
Speaker 1: don't know how they got up there to set all
Speaker 1: this up. But I mean, a dog climbing that high,
Speaker 1: they do it all the time. Dogs get killed. Uh.
Speaker 1: Good friend of mine, Brent Reeves, he and his buddy
Speaker 1: Carson just this last fall had a dog get killed
Speaker 1: that fell out of a tree. But it's so it
Speaker 1: happens chasing a raccoon. Well, they're just tree and you know,
Speaker 1: like they they don't they're not watching the raccoon go
Speaker 1: up the tree. But it's like I have a dog,
Speaker 1: one of my dogs, Steve um Jedi, you hunted with him.
Speaker 1: He's a tree climbing dude. Man, if there's a tree
Speaker 1: that has any kind of lean to it, I mean,
Speaker 1: he'll go up as high as he can't. What happens
Speaker 1: is they get up there and they can't come down.
Speaker 1: Then they fall. And now do you worry about breaking
Speaker 1: him of it? Clay? Do you try to break him
Speaker 1: of it? You just let him have at it, you know,
Speaker 1: I don't. I don't know. You know, people might say
Speaker 1: you can break them of it, but I don't really
Speaker 1: know how you would do it. I mean, they're just
Speaker 1: so pumped up when they're they've treated this coon. They're
Speaker 1: jumping on the tree, embarking. And so it happens because
Speaker 1: in chasing lions, it presents a whole another problem. Oh yeah,
Speaker 1: you get up the tree, they're gonna get into skirmish
Speaker 1: and that's how we earlier we were talking about when
Speaker 1: dogs hounds get killed by lions. It happens usually when
Speaker 1: a lion is not treed in like what you consider
Speaker 1: us a normal tree twenty feet up and a straight tree.
Speaker 1: It's like a blowdown or something, and it just jumps
Speaker 1: onto a you know, a a trunk that's only five
Speaker 1: six ft off the ground. You know, it's being supported
Speaker 1: by the anches or whatever. And then the dogs, you know,
Speaker 1: bay it for a minute off the ground. But then
Speaker 1: the dogs quickly realize, oh, I can get on the
Speaker 1: end of that tree and run right up to that thing.
Speaker 1: And the dogs have no nothing in their heads says
Speaker 1: that that thing that I'm barking at can kill me,
Speaker 1: you know what I mean, They're they're not thinking that.
Speaker 1: So they go right up to it and they want
Speaker 1: to get closer to it and bark at it and
Speaker 1: gets them in trouble. So yeah, when when I know
Speaker 1: that when Jake's dogs start climbing at all, and it's
Speaker 1: pretty amazing, like not even like grabbing like a cat
Speaker 1: would climb straight up the trunk like these dogs will
Speaker 1: actually go onto a limb, turn go to the next slimb,
Speaker 1: and turn, go to the next slim. Oh yeah, and
Speaker 1: he does not like it at all. And there's yeah,
Speaker 1: they there's there's consequences when they do it. Honest is
Speaker 1: he does he think that he can train them to
Speaker 1: not climb. The guys that I was with in Washington,
Speaker 1: Bart George and his crew, uh they do it as well.
Speaker 1: If the dogs start getting up on the uh tree,
Speaker 1: they they punish him. If you can train them, you
Speaker 1: train them to cut the tree. You trained dog do anything,
Speaker 1: so getting them stay out of tree with no problem.
Speaker 1: You just gotta set up the situation. My comment on
Speaker 1: it is basically, just like a lot of times in
Speaker 1: a tree, you're not there for a long time. It
Speaker 1: may take you a long time to get to the tree.
Speaker 1: So the dogs are they're unattended, not under you know,
Speaker 1: and just that desires watch Puss pushing them up the tree.
Speaker 1: You know. But you need that obedience set up in
Speaker 1: a yard situation. In the training situation, you'd have to
Speaker 1: simulate it as close as you could and correct the dog,
Speaker 1: because you're right, you'd never get there before the dog
Speaker 1: gets there. So yeah, backyard training Yanni's dog. You're just
Speaker 1: talking about mangus, were you? Mm hmm? Um, A long
Speaker 1: time ago, we had Dave Simonette for Trampled by Turtles
Speaker 1: on the show. Mm hmm. Musician, we're talking about how
Speaker 1: we needed a theme song from Mingus. Mingus has his
Speaker 1: own theme song now by Trampled by Turtles, Short and Sweet,
Speaker 1: Short and Sweet, ladies and gentleman does Mingus by Trampled
Speaker 1: by Turtles talk about we're gonna use the we'll use
Speaker 1: ask them what you all be sick of that? Uh,
Speaker 1: Clay do your big apology and explanation about how you
Speaker 1: messed everything up about fox hunting. Yeah, so we we
Speaker 1: talked about, we talked about I was talking about the
Speaker 1: painting on the ceiling in my office and I have
Speaker 1: a painting of an English fox hunt and I said
Speaker 1: that I put it up there because that scene no
Speaker 1: longer exists on the earth, and it's a it's like
Speaker 1: the Sistine Chapel. It's it's a painting overhead. Yeah. So
Speaker 1: all the other paintings and pictures in my office are
Speaker 1: on the walls like a normal one. I put this
Speaker 1: one on the ceiling because my point was, and what
Speaker 1: I tell people when they're in my office, as I say,
Speaker 1: do you see that scene? And it's this beautiful old
Speaker 1: painting of a of a what I presume to be
Speaker 1: an English fox hunt, and I say that no longer
Speaker 1: exists on the earth. And probably in the heat of
Speaker 1: the moment on the podcast the other day, I probably
Speaker 1: said that scene exists nowhere else on the face of
Speaker 1: the earth. That would have been a mistake. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: And so so we had some really good feedback come
Speaker 1: in some people that kind of set the record straight.
Speaker 1: And also, you know, stand by my statement that that
Speaker 1: scene doesn't exist in that warm but here, Steve, here's
Speaker 1: just a quick rundown. So fox hunting became big in Europe,
Speaker 1: and like the fifteen hundreds, Germany was one of the
Speaker 1: first countries in the nineteen thirties that banned it. In
Speaker 1: two thousand two, Scotland banded fox hunting with hounds, and
Speaker 1: then in two thousand five England and Wales banned fox
Speaker 1: hunting with hounds. And it's a pretty complex situation. A
Speaker 1: lot of it had to do with land related issues,
Speaker 1: but it was primarily fueled by anti hunting people just
Speaker 1: saying we don't like people chasing foxes with dogs. So
Speaker 1: in those places though, and I guess this is where
Speaker 1: the clarity comes. They still have simulated fox hunts with
Speaker 1: scent which as a as a American houndsman, I'm not
Speaker 1: counting that as a fox hunt. It's like a Civil
Speaker 1: War reenactment they do with yeah, and so well, and
Speaker 1: and I don't want to take anything away from those
Speaker 1: people for doing that. Yeah, I mean, I I'm not
Speaker 1: cutting them down for having a simulated fox because these
Speaker 1: people hunt on horseback and they have big packs of
Speaker 1: dogs and they do these scent drags through the countryside.
Speaker 1: So I mean, I think that's great. That is a
Speaker 1: far cry from what it was. And so but here's
Speaker 1: where I learned some stuff. Okay, I had several people
Speaker 1: contact me personally in Northern Ireland and in France, real
Speaker 1: fox hunting with hounds, like chasing real fox is still legal. Um.
Speaker 1: And and then I also had a bunch of people say, oh, Clay,
Speaker 1: you're wrong because there's fox in the United States. I
Speaker 1: wasn't talking about fox in the United States. We can
Speaker 1: run all kind of stuff with hounds. I mean, it's
Speaker 1: we live. I mean this, we got some incredible rights
Speaker 1: when it comes to hound hunting in this country still
Speaker 1: to this day. And so I I know people in
Speaker 1: northwest Arkansas that do simulated fox hunts, and it's a
Speaker 1: it's an equestrian thing, you know. I mean they're riding
Speaker 1: horses fast, they've got hounds, they're doing scent drags, and
Speaker 1: there's probably real fox sense going on in the US.
Speaker 1: But I was talking about Europe and my whole idea
Speaker 1: with you know, just this kind of guarding the gate
Speaker 1: thing is that they want to take this stuff away
Speaker 1: from us, and we can look at some of these
Speaker 1: places where they have and so my painting still is
Speaker 1: on the ceiling. So yeah, I like pugnacious. At the
Speaker 1: very end, Clay nucom other people rolling in saying they
Speaker 1: were mad at me about saying that fox hunters aren't hunters.
Speaker 1: I don't know. Yeah, He's like, oh, we're out there
Speaker 1: for having a good time, loving nature all that. Another
Speaker 1: guy rolled in. He says he hunts at a place
Speaker 1: now and then these fox hunters they dragged that little
Speaker 1: smell through the woods and they all come riding after it.
Speaker 1: He said, you'll, he'll be out in the woods. He
Speaker 1: thought about being out in his tree stand. You'll, you'll
Speaker 1: be all wouldn't have forty hounds come through making a racket,
Speaker 1: followed by dozens of people on horseback dressed up in
Speaker 1: the red and green coats like the old English hunter's war.
Speaker 1: It's quite something. You're out hunting in the woods, and
Speaker 1: that rolls through. As an avid hunter, I can tell
Speaker 1: you that the people involved in this fox hunt are
Speaker 1: so unrelated to nature and real hunting that it's insulted
Speaker 1: to call the fox hunt hunt. Obviously there's no real fox,
Speaker 1: but the people this sport attracts are also the last
Speaker 1: people that would ever know what to do with the
Speaker 1: real fox, or any wild game for that matter. It's
Speaker 1: all just a social status affair. Then you're pipe and
Speaker 1: smoke it. Brodie Henderson, you know, my mom was into
Speaker 1: horses and she belonged to what was called a hunt
Speaker 1: and Saddle club. They didn't do any hunting there. I
Speaker 1: think it's like just some traditional kind of connection, you know.
Speaker 1: I think I hear what that guy's saying, but I don't.
Speaker 1: I mean, these people are on our side, I mean,
Speaker 1: if they, I mean, yeah, we can say. I think
Speaker 1: it's a pretty big stereotype. I bet there's some legit
Speaker 1: folks and those bunches. Well, he points out that what
Speaker 1: one of these One of these fellers points out, not
Speaker 1: that guy, but another feller points out that we share enemies, right,
Speaker 1: radical animal rights community. Yeah, suburban sprawl habitat, having the
Speaker 1: your the rules of your life dictated by people who
Speaker 1: make stereotypes about you and don't understand what it is
Speaker 1: exactly that you do, but they know you. They don't
Speaker 1: want you to do it. So you're bound together by
Speaker 1: your enemies. But I'll point out, I don't want to
Speaker 1: do that. I was gonna say, but I won't. I
Speaker 1: wasn't gonna say, but I shouldn't. I was gonna point
Speaker 1: out how we were friends with the Rooskis against the
Speaker 1: Germans that got us. But that wouldn't be appropriate. It
Speaker 1: wouldn't even be a good metaphor. But Patton wanted to
Speaker 1: go on and get them. Second Patton and my old man,
Speaker 1: they were ready to keep going east. Yeah, my old
Speaker 1: man thought we were halfway done with that war when
Speaker 1: we quit. Um Clay, I'm with you. I think we
Speaker 1: should not generalize, you know, just off this one email
Speaker 1: that all these mounted fox hunters are not real outdoors folks,
Speaker 1: because I think, like you said, there's probably quite a
Speaker 1: few that are. Yeah, i'd like to see the guy
Speaker 1: that wrote dead email ride dead Horse. There you go.
Speaker 1: That's interesting. Good point, Ronnie, all right, Um, onto being
Speaker 1: better outdoors folks with our weapons. I wish I can remember.
Speaker 1: Oh he says it right here. On episode to fifty
Speaker 1: two the podcast, Steve was talking about the most common
Speaker 1: firearm related injury was bird hunting. Um he and this
Speaker 1: guy agrees with him. He is a shooting instructor in
Speaker 1: the United States Coast Guard counter terrorism teams and teaches
Speaker 1: advanced marksmanship. UM. He wanted rite in to say that
Speaker 1: some of the stuff that he teaches in that sort
Speaker 1: of space can be you used for us as safety measures,
Speaker 1: you know, as hunters out in the field, and uh,
Speaker 1: just with some other projects we've been working on. UM,
Speaker 1: you know, speaking of people getting shot or getting closest shot,
Speaker 1: it's really kind of hits home right now. But there's
Speaker 1: a thing that they teach when they shoot, when they
Speaker 1: go into close quarters combat, and that's basically when they
Speaker 1: have to start engaging multiple targets, they teach them to
Speaker 1: move their eyes first then the gun. That being so
Speaker 1: one is for safety, right, because that way your eyes
Speaker 1: and brain can look at the target and go yes,
Speaker 1: that is a threat. I need to, you know, get
Speaker 1: rid of it because you can imagine close quarters. They
Speaker 1: got a bunch of their team members in there. It
Speaker 1: can be dark, it's in a house. You gotta be
Speaker 1: very careful about what direction you're shooting at where you're shooting,
Speaker 1: just like we do when we're out in the field,
Speaker 1: you know, up and bird hunting and there's whatever, ten
Speaker 1: people on a pheasant hunt. Um. And another advantage of
Speaker 1: that is he saying, is that it actually makes you
Speaker 1: faster at shooting. A lot of people think that you
Speaker 1: want to look over or swing to your target with
Speaker 1: your gun, but if you do that, you will actually
Speaker 1: pass over the target and then have to come back
Speaker 1: and correct. Whereas if you go there first with your
Speaker 1: eyes lock on, then bring your target too, then bring
Speaker 1: your pistol or rifle or shot and whatever to the target.
Speaker 1: You'll be faster doing it that way. You know what's
Speaker 1: interesting parallel there, uh is when you take out beginner
Speaker 1: hunters who aren't of customers shooting sculpt rifles, they have
Speaker 1: a very difficult time finding the d or whatever acquiring
Speaker 1: the target because they are looking through the scope, trying
Speaker 1: to get oriented through the scope and then searching for
Speaker 1: the thing. Once you get the knack of it, your
Speaker 1: eye never leaves the thing, the thing being your target,
Speaker 1: your target. You're looking at a deer on the hillside
Speaker 1: and you bring your rifle up. You don't then look
Speaker 1: for it. It's just there, like your eyes on it,
Speaker 1: and everything is. The scope is coming to your eye,
Speaker 1: which is already trained on the thing. It's hard to do,
Speaker 1: but you just figure it out over time. You don't
Speaker 1: go like, Okay, I look through the scope, then I'll
Speaker 1: start staring all over the place trying to find the thing.
Speaker 1: It's seamless i first, but you know he relates it
Speaker 1: to like getting tunnel vision, and you know you're getting
Speaker 1: real Like we always talked about the factor of lust
Speaker 1: and wanting to kill something and wanting to be successful
Speaker 1: as a hunter. And you know, you see the pheasant
Speaker 1: flush and you're so focused on that that you don't
Speaker 1: see your buddy that's in the line of fire. Right happens?
Speaker 1: It does happen? Does happen? I mean A really good
Speaker 1: example is if you shoot up like old old style
Speaker 1: South Dakota blockers flankers and pushers. The flankers are only
Speaker 1: on the outside of the field in case a bird
Speaker 1: peels out. But sometimes right when it starts, these birds
Speaker 1: start coming up in the middle and they're like, well,
Speaker 1: there's nobody here, and they're shooting the other flanker or
Speaker 1: putting shot on him. And I've seen a guy get
Speaker 1: taken right square and a lip right here flanking the
Speaker 1: field and he says, I'm not flanking anymore this week.
Speaker 1: And it, I mean, it was pretty it was. We
Speaker 1: had to get it out. We had to get the
Speaker 1: yeah mingus um, okay, more about dogs. While back, I
Speaker 1: don't know what episode it was that we were talking
Speaker 1: about blood tracking dogs and about how it's becoming a
Speaker 1: thing and more and more, states um. And a fellow
Speaker 1: rode in uh he he wasn't a member, he's not
Speaker 1: a member of the the United Blood Trackers, but he was
Speaker 1: saying that there's a lot of Facebook based groups that
Speaker 1: provide volunteer tracking service. Is two Hunters, And what was
Speaker 1: interesting is that very high success rates for for these
Speaker 1: dogs to find wounded dear that you might not find later.
Speaker 1: What kind of numbers did they say in seventeen they
Speaker 1: went on five seven tracks, had two seven total recoveries.
Speaker 1: Just makes for a success rate of fifty four point four.
Speaker 1: You know not want to know here, and it would
Speaker 1: be really important to this is is that after like,
Speaker 1: is that after you failed manually tracking? I would say typically, well,
Speaker 1: you'd have to know that because if you're just showing
Speaker 1: up off out of the gate with a dog, that
Speaker 1: doesn't impress me at all. I'll bet you though some
Speaker 1: people they're shooting one in the evening right at dark,
Speaker 1: they may just call the dog because we'll normal trailing.
Speaker 1: I mean normal trailing is yeah, you know high if
Speaker 1: but if if that's you've exhausted your manual tracking abilities
Speaker 1: and then you're recovering of what couldn't have been recovered otherwise,
Speaker 1: that's impressive. Yeah. I mean my only exposure to this
Speaker 1: was in Idaho. They used a woman shot a bear
Speaker 1: right at dark. It was raining um and they brought
Speaker 1: in a teeny little blood tracking dog. That bear had
Speaker 1: only gone a hundred yards. I don't think we would
Speaker 1: have ever found it. It was buried in the brush.
Speaker 1: We couldn't see any blood. So it was a pretty
Speaker 1: impressive and it it was quick. It was a couple
Speaker 1: of minutes that dog found. Hey, don't get me wrong, man,
Speaker 1: I'm not down on it. I think that they should
Speaker 1: loosen whatever restrictions are in place and make it that
Speaker 1: it's just the thing. I wish that, like every community
Speaker 1: had a community to help people with recovery. I'm not
Speaker 1: down on it. I'm saying if if you could up,
Speaker 1: if after you exhausted possibilities and you brought a dog
Speaker 1: and then had a fifty of recovering, that's phenomenal. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I'd say that's more of the rule of the rule.
Speaker 1: I've interviewed three three trackers and they're coming into after
Speaker 1: they can't find it. Very rare. Would they just go
Speaker 1: in without any intel, just say hey, I shot, just
Speaker 1: come out with me. But would you say, you know,
Speaker 1: time we could find it. So it's almost always after
Speaker 1: a bad weather condition or inability to find anything. No
Speaker 1: blood thing always gets them. So when they get called in,
Speaker 1: it's because usually of a lack of blood. Most people
Speaker 1: see blood that keep going, they don't, They don't look
Speaker 1: for help. And the dogs are able to now track
Speaker 1: from the dearest tarso gland, which is just like our
Speaker 1: thumb print, Like the FBI is not gonna mistake your
Speaker 1: thumb print for mine. A dog, well trained dogs not
Speaker 1: gonna I'm not gonna mistake that tarso gland smell. It's
Speaker 1: that dear's individual scent. I'm on that. I'm I'm on
Speaker 1: Bobby Ranilla and I'm chasing him across as air a
Speaker 1: lot farm and I'll find him. It's funny mentioned because
Speaker 1: I got a nephew name Bobby, were knowing, I knew that.
Speaker 1: The other thing that would affect that statistic is how
Speaker 1: many of those deer didn't die? Like, so you got there. Yeah,
Speaker 1: so there's some percentage of those unrecovered deer that didn't die,
Speaker 1: which I would think would be pretty high. I think
Speaker 1: a lot of deers survive, you know what people you know,
Speaker 1: just flesh wounds, and so that makes it even a
Speaker 1: higher percentage of dead deer that are recovered. And actually,
Speaker 1: as they've got numbers all the way through UH and
Speaker 1: the percentages are are every year, it seems a steadily
Speaker 1: increase Like success straight got up to sixty six mhm. Okay, yeah,
Speaker 1: ready take it away. Where would you go to recon
Speaker 1: fighting coons and dogs and barrels or whatever? I said, Well, okay,
Speaker 1: I listened. Believe it or not, I listened to your podcast.
Speaker 1: Is quite often and every once in a while I
Speaker 1: hear you tell a story and I just cringe because
Speaker 1: it came from you. I know where, I know the source,
Speaker 1: but I know for a fact that I did not
Speaker 1: say it like that. But one of the reasons is
Speaker 1: when I sit with you anywhere, and this has been
Speaker 1: since the day you worked for me an eighteen years old,
Speaker 1: you like to engage and ask questions like I could
Speaker 1: start telling a story and go whoa wait a minute, wait,
Speaker 1: so this guy? So you remember things and I was
Speaker 1: talking about and Clay, Clay, you got to jump in
Speaker 1: on this because you're the coon hunter. Um. Friends of
Speaker 1: mine told me this story that if you don't want
Speaker 1: your dog chasing deer, you put the coon dog in
Speaker 1: a barrel with a bunch of deer legs and roll
Speaker 1: it down a hill. Now, barbaric, silly, local legend, whatever
Speaker 1: it is. I started googling this morning and there's a
Speaker 1: guy who uses doe urine in a in a cup
Speaker 1: on an electric fence and when the dogs going to
Speaker 1: smell the dog urine, the dough year and the dog
Speaker 1: gets a shock from the electric fences. Great, what, Clay,
Speaker 1: what what have you heard for old legends of breaking
Speaker 1: them from tress. They call it chasing trash. Well, if
Speaker 1: Clay doesn't have any, I got it. I've got one.
Speaker 1: Let's hear it. Go ahead. You know I don't have
Speaker 1: anything beyond that. I mean the real world, like houndsman
Speaker 1: typically don't or at least a brand I'm around. Don't
Speaker 1: buy into that kind of stuff. It's a lot more natural.
Speaker 1: There's a lot of really pretty easy ways to break right, right.
Speaker 1: I don't even know if whatever happened, right, I just
Speaker 1: I just know, guys, I've heard of that same one
Speaker 1: Ronnie about you know dough y'arin electric fans. Well, I
Speaker 1: don't have anything, right, let me tell you one here.
Speaker 1: It would work to keep the dog out of barrels. Though, dogs,
Speaker 1: you don't even worry about me chasing barrels. Yeah, never
Speaker 1: gonna happen again. I see a barrel, I go the
Speaker 1: other way too, Okay, from this same guys, I don't
Speaker 1: want to see who they are from way back, the
Speaker 1: same guys that you came away with the story about
Speaker 1: you fill up a barrel full of deer legs and
Speaker 1: rolling down the hill. And I was unsettled by this
Speaker 1: when I heard it from them, back when nothing would
Speaker 1: unsettled me, but I was unsettled by this. They would
Speaker 1: also say that when they had one of their dogs
Speaker 1: kill a fawn, they said, what you do is you
Speaker 1: hang the dog up in a tree by its collar
Speaker 1: and whoop it with the fawn. That is brutal. Well,
Speaker 1: and I later thought that can't be true. We had
Speaker 1: a guy said I didn't put it on Instagram because
Speaker 1: it was too graphic. We had a guy send us
Speaker 1: in a picture. He was very upset by it. It
Speaker 1: was like a high test collar and a high test lead,
Speaker 1: like the kind houndsman news, like those bright orange, real
Speaker 1: heavy freaking collars hanging from a tree, and underneath that
Speaker 1: collar was a stack of dog bones, telling you what.
Speaker 1: And he thought he's a hunter. He found it. He's like,
Speaker 1: this is insane. No one knows what happened at night.
Speaker 1: I don't know, No, I don't know. Bad apples for sure.
Speaker 1: I'm I don't know what happened that night, but I'm
Speaker 1: assuming it's condemnable. But I'm just saying, like I heard
Speaker 1: that a long time ago. And we're and you know,
Speaker 1: we're talking about like, well, people us do a lot
Speaker 1: of things that they shouldn't do. Right right, Well you
Speaker 1: said you, Oh mine wasn't. My dad used to uh,
Speaker 1: his this is for you personally or no dog, No,
Speaker 1: his his bird dog. He was a gross center back
Speaker 1: when Pennsylvania used to have grouse, and that dog would
Speaker 1: occasionally chase deer and it was nothing as bad as
Speaker 1: what we've already talked about. But he'd hang a piece
Speaker 1: of deer hide soaked in and dough yearn on that
Speaker 1: dog's collar. I have no idea if it like to
Speaker 1: make it sick of it. Yeah, yeah, it's just he
Speaker 1: did it. Who knows if. I don't know if it worked,
Speaker 1: but that was something he still talks about doing that
Speaker 1: to this day. I've had guys telling me about trying
Speaker 1: a skunk hide onto a dog to make the dog
Speaker 1: get sick of skunk hide smell, or just get so
Speaker 1: used to it they don't pay any attention to it.
Speaker 1: I don't know. You know what's funny about you telling
Speaker 1: how I tell your stories and get him a little
Speaker 1: as Yet, there's a I can't tell the story because
Speaker 1: it's very very sensitive material. I could do it if
Speaker 1: I took my time, very sensitive material. But Ronnie had
Speaker 1: a story that happened to him I told my brother
Speaker 1: the story about what happened to Ronnie. A couple of
Speaker 1: years go by, he's drunk and he's telling Ronnie's story
Speaker 1: about what happened to me. And Ronnie's halfway through the stories, like,
Speaker 1: wait a minute, that that's my story. That always happens
Speaker 1: at the fish check. Uh? Where were we? Keep going around? Well,
Speaker 1: where are we at? Oh? As far as the scandal,
Speaker 1: So it's like the Ukraine scandal. There there is in America.
Speaker 1: There are sporting dog groups, right, individual breed groups. One
Speaker 1: is Deutsch Drathar Deutsch Kurtzhar, which is a German short hair,
Speaker 1: German wire hair, and there's other breed clubs that they
Speaker 1: hold to the standards of the European testing system, which
Speaker 1: is what NAVDA it's kind of based on. Explain NAVDA
Speaker 1: real quick well. Navda's North American Versatile Hunting Dog Association.
Speaker 1: And what we're looking for is a well rounded dog
Speaker 1: that does good work before and after the shot on
Speaker 1: land and on water. Like and you're a judge for NAVDA, right, Yeah,
Speaker 1: I've been judging twenty years for him, and so that's
Speaker 1: what we're looking for. But in the European test and
Speaker 1: I can't. Actually I did call a friend when I
Speaker 1: knew I was coming on. I did call a friend
Speaker 1: in Germany. And what they used to do at least
Speaker 1: this is my understanding. Somebody can write in and straighten
Speaker 1: it all out and your German and I'm beam with
Speaker 1: an um lot over the but we dropped doom lot.
Speaker 1: It's actually been um anyway. So during a test they
Speaker 1: went they may not have a let's say, what they
Speaker 1: don't have. What's a version of a raccoon in Europe
Speaker 1: um badgers. There a European raccoon, the European badger. So
Speaker 1: the dogs, because the dogs are always not the badgers
Speaker 1: and raccoons are like the same thing, but they're they're
Speaker 1: a geating bird eating ground eating critters that sure do
Speaker 1: you want to get rid of. So, because in Europe
Speaker 1: everything is on private ground, they wanted to keep the
Speaker 1: grounds as pristine as possible for the ground nesting birds
Speaker 1: in the rabbits, which are the game that they're hunting.
Speaker 1: So the dogs were always expected to dispatch any kind
Speaker 1: of vermin, whatever, whatever they could catch in the course
Speaker 1: of a day. That if he came across the groundhog,
Speaker 1: if he came across a badger came across the raccoon
Speaker 1: skunk kill it eliminate the competition, eliminate everything so the
Speaker 1: hunter can get something with his shotgun. So part of
Speaker 1: their testing format on a test day, there's no way
Speaker 1: you could guarantee like you're going to run into a
Speaker 1: raccoon on a test day. They but what they would do.
Speaker 1: There's a breed, a breed warden who also does the
Speaker 1: confirmation of the dog and make sure that this dog
Speaker 1: should be bred to that dog. It's kind of like
Speaker 1: that old school arranged marriages. They get very concerned with
Speaker 1: the coat on that dog versus the code on this
Speaker 1: dog or the furnishings they call it. There's a lot
Speaker 1: of they call the dog's color. It's furnishings. No, it's
Speaker 1: coat coat. Yeah, so when it has the big beard
Speaker 1: in the big fuzzy faces, furnishings, right, yeah, Rusty always
Speaker 1: thought it was the testicles. Know, He's always going like, hey,
Speaker 1: how's that dog's furnishing. Oh yeah, it didn't have any
Speaker 1: furnish anyway. So so during like right now, currently, this
Speaker 1: is a friend of mine. Uh no, I won't even
Speaker 1: say what he's decorated for anyway, He's he's over in
Speaker 1: yourpe right now working for us. Yeah, and so he
Speaker 1: has a German breath. Well, I don't know if I
Speaker 1: I really I don't know how far we're gonna go
Speaker 1: into that. But anyway, he told me that in Germany
Speaker 1: right now, if this happens in the course of a
Speaker 1: hunt and you're with somebody as a witness, okay, they
Speaker 1: that is still a desirable trait. So if you and
Speaker 1: I were out hunting and my dog even a feral cat,
Speaker 1: my dog dispatched a feral cat, I could say, like Steve,
Speaker 1: write a note to my breed Warden that you're a hunter.
Speaker 1: I saw, I saw Ron's dog do it, and it
Speaker 1: would go. It would be duly noted in that dog's paperwork. Now,
Speaker 1: what they've done here, I can't speak for Germany, but
Speaker 1: when I started getting into the Versaill Dog world, I
Speaker 1: knew a lot of people that were in what's called
Speaker 1: the v d d g n A that's very in
Speaker 1: Deutsch Rat Group North America, and that's the group that
Speaker 1: the fellow from Alaska wrote the email from. Okay, Um,
Speaker 1: the best of my knowledge, that is still a requirement
Speaker 1: to breed. They want to make sure that your dog
Speaker 1: will dispatch game. And they called a sharpness or hardness hardness.
Speaker 1: I think it's hardness like HD. What would most American
Speaker 1: upland hunters with dogs, I would think would consider that
Speaker 1: to be an undesirable trade. Well, I've always said they
Speaker 1: wouldn't have started if they had porcupines in Germany, Like
Speaker 1: I really think they would not if they had porcupines
Speaker 1: in Germany. That it's because porcupines are the worst thing
Speaker 1: for a dog to get into. My dogs have killed
Speaker 1: raccoons to get a scratch on the ear. Go kill
Speaker 1: a porcupine and it's six dollars of emergency that you know,
Speaker 1: I'm taken out. So anyway, So that was part of
Speaker 1: the testing to the best of my knowledge, and to
Speaker 1: the best of my knowledge it still is. But you know,
Speaker 1: somebody can write in the controversy came up um in NAVDA.
Speaker 1: Nowhere in our testing do we test on for. But
Speaker 1: you are allowed in this one part of a one
Speaker 1: part of our utility test. We take typically a duck
Speaker 1: and we put like a long leash on it, and
Speaker 1: it's called a drag. So the dog is over in
Speaker 1: the truck with the owner. I make a little feather pile,
Speaker 1: and I dragged this duck yards and the dead duck
Speaker 1: a dead duck, and I drag it into the woods
Speaker 1: and kind of hide it. And then I go behind
Speaker 1: another tree or something to stay out away from the dog.
Speaker 1: I blow my whistle. They call the owner. The dog
Speaker 1: comes up. Now, this isn't the dog's test of nose
Speaker 1: because a dead duck dragon in the grass. I mean, anybody,
Speaker 1: your dog at home could find that. We can try
Speaker 1: it tonight if you had time. Um, But what this
Speaker 1: does is shows the dog's cooperation and obedience, like you
Speaker 1: have to go retrieve that. And in our rules, because
Speaker 1: we have a big background, we have a historic connection
Speaker 1: with Germany. Boat a winner held it started NAVDA. You
Speaker 1: know he came from that world, and we allow replacement
Speaker 1: if the chapter will provide a duck. But if you
Speaker 1: are a person that wants to do it with a
Speaker 1: rabbit or a squirrel or a woodchuck, you could bring
Speaker 1: your own dead let's say, cold dead road kill or
Speaker 1: something you had in refrigerator the night before. Because a
Speaker 1: lot of the members from v D D G n
Speaker 1: A are also members of Navada, so they're practicing. These
Speaker 1: are people that really like to test their dogs. So
Speaker 1: they come to our venue and they test their dogs,
Speaker 1: and they go in their venue and test dogs and
Speaker 1: their and their venue. There's a lot more of these
Speaker 1: drag which is the retrieve, and there's a lot of emphasis.
Speaker 1: There's an old saying that the Europeans want a tracking dog,
Speaker 1: little point and Americans want to pointing dog, little track.
Speaker 1: So their emphasis in Europe has always been on recovery
Speaker 1: of game. Like you are not allowed to go upland
Speaker 1: hunting your duck hunting without a dog. You can in America,
Speaker 1: but not in Europe, not in Germany, and you can't
Speaker 1: big game hunt unless you have the resources of it's
Speaker 1: like a United Blood trackers, which they don't have there,
Speaker 1: but they always have. Like the hunting property that Ben
Speaker 1: told me about it, they call it a reserve. Might
Speaker 1: be two or three farmers get together and let's say, okay,
Speaker 1: let's let's get a lesi to come out here and
Speaker 1: they can hunt and they can, you know, take some
Speaker 1: of the road deer or the red deer whatever is
Speaker 1: on the in that area. And you know, if there's ducks,
Speaker 1: they can hunt ducks. So those hunters are kind of
Speaker 1: in charge of that piece of property. And so in
Speaker 1: Germany or in the vd d g n A testing,
Speaker 1: they do a lot more recovery, so they want they
Speaker 1: actually will drag a dead fox and they call it
Speaker 1: a fox in a box that dogs jump over like
Speaker 1: a box edge and retrieve a fox and bring a
Speaker 1: fox back a rabbit backup, you know. So that's where
Speaker 1: the that little miss up happened. We don't trained for
Speaker 1: it in our test, but at one portion of lar
Speaker 1: test you are allowed to bring in your own cold
Speaker 1: fur god for that portion test. Nowhere else in the
Speaker 1: test can you substitute whatever the chapter would provide for you.
Speaker 1: Can you explain what you were telling me about you
Speaker 1: mentioned that in certain German systems where there's a person
Speaker 1: that you mentioned the arranged marriage thing. Yeah, you that
Speaker 1: you could have a dog and bring it down and
Speaker 1: and that dog would get stamped do not breed right
Speaker 1: if if the dog, if the dog failed, Let's say
Speaker 1: let's say the dog did fail. It's hard dis test
Speaker 1: like this dog just can't close the deal on a
Speaker 1: skunk or a possum or whatever. They would stamp do
Speaker 1: not breed on their papers because you can't breed within
Speaker 1: the club without the blessing of the club. We're in America.
Speaker 1: You and I could breed your dog and my dog.
Speaker 1: No one's gonna stop me. But in when you're in
Speaker 1: that club, of that breed club, the breed warden, like
Speaker 1: he sits at the throne of the breeding, he'll say like,
Speaker 1: Steve's got a dog that's um got a nice coat,
Speaker 1: maybe not a great undercoat, and Ron's got a dog
Speaker 1: that's coat would compliment that. Now they have to have
Speaker 1: all the hunting skills up there through testing. See oh,
Speaker 1: in that club, you also don't get to breed your
Speaker 1: dog unless it passes these tests. We're Navada. You could
Speaker 1: fail your dog and still go to your neighbor and
Speaker 1: breed your German short hair to his German short hair.
Speaker 1: They could both and sell it as a German short hair.
Speaker 1: But they don't have to pass the test to be bred.
Speaker 1: But if it's in the European judging system or or
Speaker 1: breed club system, those dogs not only have to participate
Speaker 1: in the test, they have to get a passing score.
Speaker 1: So you don't have a bunch of you know, guys
Speaker 1: like me in high school breeding Basically, uh what in
Speaker 1: your mind based on uh, your experienced judge and dogs.
Speaker 1: If someone's gonna go this is highly subjective. I understand
Speaker 1: if someone's gonna go buy a dog, like I don't
Speaker 1: know what kind of dog to get. I want the
Speaker 1: most versatile dog I can find on the planet. You
Speaker 1: would say, the one that was near and dearest to
Speaker 1: my heart was a German wire head pointer, which is
Speaker 1: the English version of Deutsche droth her so. Deutsche is
Speaker 1: German dropped her is wire hair, so German wire hare.
Speaker 1: That's always been my go to favorite dog. But that's
Speaker 1: not the kind of dog you run. No. I got
Speaker 1: tired of all the cats and all the deer and
Speaker 1: the fawns and the porcupines, and the dog fights, and
Speaker 1: because they're just too aggressive. They can be to aggress
Speaker 1: shouldn't say too aggresive, they're aggressive, they're aggressive. Yeah, if
Speaker 1: there's a dog that's prone to, you know, even getting
Speaker 1: a fight with another dog, it's a dog that's got that.
Speaker 1: He's kind of like a hyper vigilant dog. It's almost
Speaker 1: like picture a bunch of guys that fighting m m
Speaker 1: A and going drinking with them. There's probably gonna be
Speaker 1: a fight in the bar that night, right, But if
Speaker 1: you went to the men tell you not, they tell
Speaker 1: you because it's all that aggression is released into the ring.
Speaker 1: Yeah all that. Yeah, And what's funny is I went
Speaker 1: to an M m A fight one time and watched
Speaker 1: no fewer than three fights in the crowd, including one
Speaker 1: that sent a woman away on a stretcher. But then, meanwhile,
Speaker 1: was supposed to be that there's no it's all alleviated
Speaker 1: through the spectacle. I'm like, oh, you can't like a
Speaker 1: hockey game. You can't take the hard the hardness out
Speaker 1: of the dog, you know. So so the dogs I run, now,
Speaker 1: yeah they are. They're kind of known for not The
Speaker 1: Italians are not. They don't have that type of testing system.
Speaker 1: They've never had it. The dogs just had to perform
Speaker 1: in the field for upland game. So generations, hundreds of
Speaker 1: years of that get a dog that really doesn't care
Speaker 1: much about you know. For now, it still happens, don't.
Speaker 1: Don't get me wrong. Bravo Bravos killed a couple of
Speaker 1: cats in his later years for some reason. I don't
Speaker 1: know why, but I would trust him around most domestic animals.
Speaker 1: A broco Italiano still has that. They're just pretty. They're
Speaker 1: just not interested in for but the German wire hair
Speaker 1: or Deutsch strathire, or the German short hair or the
Speaker 1: German equivalent is the Deutsch kurtzher. Those animals are more
Speaker 1: prone to Like if you're out hunting in a feral
Speaker 1: cat scoots out of the grass, that's the last run
Speaker 1: for the cat. It's gonna be honest. What's the worst
Speaker 1: kind of dog? Oh, there's no worst. It's really that
Speaker 1: gets down to breeding, Like if if what what I
Speaker 1: mentioned earlier, If so, there's not a kind of dog
Speaker 1: that people insist on buying, and then you, after all
Speaker 1: the testing experience you've had, you're just like you just
Speaker 1: you're wasting your time. I would say, I would say
Speaker 1: in every breed of dog, I could find you one
Speaker 1: that would be adequate in the field. But there are
Speaker 1: breeds that haven't had the testing and and kind of
Speaker 1: lost favor with the upland hunter over the Like the
Speaker 1: one that everybody talks about is the Irish center. You know,
Speaker 1: real pretty mahogany coat, you know, just a friendly dog.
Speaker 1: Back in the day. That was the upland dog in
Speaker 1: North America for for years, and then the popularity when
Speaker 1: the German dogs came over after War War two, the
Speaker 1: hunters started going for German short hairs and German wire hairs,
Speaker 1: and win Mariners, and and and the the breeders who
Speaker 1: are still breeding the ira center. They just lost popularity.
Speaker 1: And so right now to take an Irish center and
Speaker 1: put it in through our system, it could be done,
Speaker 1: and it is done. But if you called me up
Speaker 1: and said, ron, I want a versatild dog and my
Speaker 1: wife wants Iras center, I'd say, let's get you one
Speaker 1: that you got a better chance of. Yeah, Brody, telling
Speaker 1: about your dog, Man, Oh, the English springer Spaniel. He's
Speaker 1: got big shoes to fill. Man, my dog was good
Speaker 1: and that dog just required very little training. But um,
Speaker 1: I went a year after that first one died. I
Speaker 1: didn't know if I was going to get another one.
Speaker 1: Got another Springer Spaniel, and uh, man, it's just it's
Speaker 1: not his fault. It's like he's coming along. I shot
Speaker 1: a couple of grouse over him, pheasants, a couple of
Speaker 1: ducks over him last last fall, and the old dog
Speaker 1: would retrieve ducks. This one will not so far. Um,
Speaker 1: how old is it, Brodie, He's about sixteen months now. Um,
Speaker 1: give him time. Well, that's the problem. Is like I
Speaker 1: just you know, I go hunting for other stuff and
Speaker 1: don't dedicate enough time to training him, and so hopefully
Speaker 1: he'll come along. I'm not writing him off yet. What
Speaker 1: do you think of the general name of the dog?
Speaker 1: What's the dog's name, Dusty? The name of the kind
Speaker 1: of daylish springers a flushing dog. So I don't have
Speaker 1: a lot of background with flushing dogs. There's three major types.
Speaker 1: The hounds that that Clay has, which for tracking, mostly
Speaker 1: for big game or raccoons, and then you have the
Speaker 1: flushing dogs, which are in the retriever category. So you've
Speaker 1: got Springer Spaniels, Irish water Spaniel, Labrador Retriever uh chest
Speaker 1: Peak Bay Retriever. When those dogs are used, they're retrieving specialists,
Speaker 1: which is kind of funny. That doesn't pick up a
Speaker 1: duck usually pick up everything. He's kind of a whim.
Speaker 1: Well then that happens. There's no fixing that, right, Yeah, No,
Speaker 1: Usually maturity fixes that sometimes. Just didn't you ever know
Speaker 1: kids that like like my daughter Jesse, she didn't. She
Speaker 1: was real shy and now she's on news every other Sunday,
Speaker 1: you know, doing a cooking segment. She was real shy
Speaker 1: as a kid just took her a while to find
Speaker 1: her voice, and dogs can be the same way. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean he'll he'll pick up he picked up grouse
Speaker 1: and yeah it was new and he was like, yeah,
Speaker 1: I don't know, maybe I'm not even supposed to you know, right,
Speaker 1: you know, if the first thing you shot form was
Speaker 1: a duckling out of season, he might be good duck. Right.
Speaker 1: So those dogs don't point, so therefore they're not in
Speaker 1: the I don't judge Springer Spans with you. Yeah. Um,
Speaker 1: But as far as training the dog, it's all the
Speaker 1: same training. You know, the you just know in the process,
Speaker 1: like Brodie's job is to make sure that dog stays
Speaker 1: within shot on range, and the dog's natural range should
Speaker 1: be more cooperative, it should be more around you anyway.
Speaker 1: And with the pointing dogs, you have to work on
Speaker 1: the steadiness of the point because of a pointing dog
Speaker 1: will find a bird and after a while he just
Speaker 1: he just he just can't handle it and he's gonna
Speaker 1: and if he gets into that bird before you get there,
Speaker 1: which could be to yards away, especially in the Dakotas
Speaker 1: or why hunting North Dakota, you can see a dog
Speaker 1: on point three hundred yards away. Well, if he can't
Speaker 1: hold his ship together, you're not get any birds. You know,
Speaker 1: break breaks point exactly. So that's like our curses working
Speaker 1: at steadiness, and in a flushing dog, it's keeping that
Speaker 1: dog within let's say yards, You don't and they you know,
Speaker 1: you want him quartering back, which he does. What they
Speaker 1: do nice and is you always think, why are the
Speaker 1: birds always out there where my pointing dogs found him?
Speaker 1: Well they're also birds you're walking by. Because your dogs
Speaker 1: are already two hundred yards away from you. You You can't
Speaker 1: smell it on the ground. The flushing dog kind of
Speaker 1: vacuums like everywhere you're walking. So a lot of people,
Speaker 1: it's very popular, will hunt with a flushing dog and
Speaker 1: a pointing dog. Oh yeah, Now the training comes into
Speaker 1: like when the when the two lines meet. But a
Speaker 1: lot of times that pointer could just be out there
Speaker 1: on the horizon or out there in the field hunting,
Speaker 1: and your flusher could be walking along a fence line
Speaker 1: with you and boom, take something right out of there.
Speaker 1: You probably roll your eyes and people tall you this
Speaker 1: because I bet you everybody tells you this. But when
Speaker 1: you knew our dog, we had a really good dog,
Speaker 1: like a really good flushing dog growing up. Yeah, you
Speaker 1: had that white lab. Yeah she was great for rough grouse.
Speaker 1: But the only that made her good for rough grouse
Speaker 1: she didn't go far away, right she was, so she
Speaker 1: would run. She flushed birds. I don't know when she
Speaker 1: was flushing birds, but she'd just be like busybody and
Speaker 1: within twenty yards you no matter where you went, and
Speaker 1: inadvertently kick stuff up. And it was very good at
Speaker 1: finding it, yea. So it wasn't that it's goodness was
Speaker 1: only that it liked to smell around and didn't go away.
Speaker 1: And if there was a thicket that you didn't want
Speaker 1: to go into and you waited for a minute, she'd
Speaker 1: eventually get bored and going there and look around and
Speaker 1: something comes busting out. Yeah, And like when you like
Speaker 1: grouse hunting by our house, Like if a grouse is
Speaker 1: on the ground and you just start walking by, like
Speaker 1: that grouse's job is to sit. Like when he flies,
Speaker 1: he's gonna get taken by a hawk, right Statistically, that's
Speaker 1: how they're going to die the most. So his job
Speaker 1: is to sit. So if you're walking through the woods
Speaker 1: with your brothers and you're talking the girls is like
Speaker 1: they don't know, they don't know I'm here. But now
Speaker 1: you throw this other thing that's like, what, what's that
Speaker 1: a erratic footstep? Why? Why am I hearing footsteps over here?
Speaker 1: Why am I hearing footsteps? And then that kind of
Speaker 1: unnerves the grouse and girls like I can handle three
Speaker 1: kids walking by me. But whatever that, you know, whatever
Speaker 1: that which is more like a coyote or a bobcat,
Speaker 1: you know that's of course they don't hunt like a
Speaker 1: dog does. But um so that yeah, yeah, duchess would
Speaker 1: be a real helpful again with the range though, if
Speaker 1: she did that fifty yards from you, you'll be hot.
Speaker 1: If people want to hunt a flusher and a pointer,
Speaker 1: how come nobody's just breeding two of them together and
Speaker 1: coming out with the best of both worlds. You know,
Speaker 1: a lot of money right there. Business point. You know,
Speaker 1: I got a little English cocker spaniel right now, and
Speaker 1: I could breathe that with one of my broccles and
Speaker 1: see what happens. But I'm not thinking that would work
Speaker 1: because whatever whatever instincts gonna if the pointing instinct comes
Speaker 1: through in the dog, it's always going to point, at
Speaker 1: least initially. And then if you were looking for that
Speaker 1: dog to just flush, and he kept the ranginus of
Speaker 1: the pointing dog. Well, then you're back out to unshootable birds.
Speaker 1: But it is real popular to hunt with a like
Speaker 1: a lab or cocker or springer um while you've got
Speaker 1: a pointing dog running out, you know, yeah, and there's
Speaker 1: a whole thing with like one the flushing dog honoring
Speaker 1: the pointer or vice. That's where the real high level trade.
Speaker 1: Like you tell the one dog, if you see him point,
Speaker 1: don't go in there and screwing it up right right,
Speaker 1: So if you would, if you saw your dog point,
Speaker 1: you would call your your flushing dog to heal you go.
Speaker 1: He'd come right back to your legs. You don't want
Speaker 1: to blow it. You don't want him to blow it. Right,
Speaker 1: But if you get close enough, now, if you're worth
Speaker 1: in ten yards of your dog and you know there's
Speaker 1: something there because you get to know your dog's points,
Speaker 1: all of a sudden, the tail gets loose or the
Speaker 1: body gets loose, or he might kind of look over
Speaker 1: his head and see if you're coming. That usually means
Speaker 1: the bird's gone or the birds starting to move. But
Speaker 1: his training is like I'm not allowed to move until
Speaker 1: my boss gets here. So what you don't want is
Speaker 1: that little flushing dog running in on a pointing dog
Speaker 1: when you don't know the situation yet. But when you
Speaker 1: get to say, let's say ten yards, let the little
Speaker 1: flusher go. But now the pointing dog can get mad
Speaker 1: because that's his bird. So you've gotta have it's it's
Speaker 1: a struggle are there with these high test, well trained dogs.
Speaker 1: Do you ever see anybody that gets that. They're able
Speaker 1: to go in and hunt woodcock and real dense cover
Speaker 1: and they whatever. Then the dogs like the pointer is,
Speaker 1: I'm only gonna work thirty yards, I'll still point. I'm
Speaker 1: working close. I've seen. But then you're going to open
Speaker 1: cover and the dog you're able to communicate to the dog,
Speaker 1: and then all he's he's out seventy eight yards looking
Speaker 1: for a pheasant out and open cover. It can can
Speaker 1: is it? Or is it one or the other? No, no,
Speaker 1: it should be both. In fact, in the NAVSA rules
Speaker 1: we don't implement it as much as we used to.
Speaker 1: But what we would do, Let's say if we rented
Speaker 1: uh a forty acre or we had a lease on
Speaker 1: a forty year eighty acre hay field to use for
Speaker 1: the field and if there was an adjoining wood lot.
Speaker 1: So in our old rules were take the dog now
Speaker 1: that's hunting this field, Take the dog into the wood lot,
Speaker 1: and you should see the dog's range tighten up. So
Speaker 1: that's an expectation that is an expectation doesn't always come,
Speaker 1: but it's an expectation, you know. And and honestly, I
Speaker 1: can't remember more than a half a dozen tests where
Speaker 1: I'm like, I don't worry, we got a little piece
Speaker 1: of woods, will walk through the woods to get to
Speaker 1: the next field, and I will make a note like
Speaker 1: that dog just wanted to get to the next field.
Speaker 1: Like and if there was a grouse sitting on the
Speaker 1: side of this wood lot, we weren't going to find it,
Speaker 1: you know. But it's something that we don't really set
Speaker 1: up for the test, but it is in our kind
Speaker 1: of our judge's hand. It's something we can do if
Speaker 1: we opt to explain. Um, we we're talking last night
Speaker 1: as well, and you were talking about a thing that
Speaker 1: that that you guys trained dogs to do that is
Speaker 1: just completely This has not like like residential house dog owners,
Speaker 1: this is not on their radar. But but the what
Speaker 1: do you call it where they get up on the block. Oh,
Speaker 1: I was talking about the program. My my friend justin
Speaker 1: to no no, yeah, but yeah, we'll talk to explain
Speaker 1: the program, but explain like what that's called, Like it's
Speaker 1: just part of the it's part of you guys take
Speaker 1: it as a matter of course that of course you
Speaker 1: can hunting dogs should do this. But you were talking
Speaker 1: about I don't know why any dog owner wouldn't want
Speaker 1: to establish this capability. It makes sense. Yeah, Well, we
Speaker 1: referred to it as a calming touch. So when a
Speaker 1: when a puppy is young, um, when you're real young,
Speaker 1: it's a matter of maybe putting them on your lap
Speaker 1: and fiddling with their paws and fiddling with their ears.
Speaker 1: Most puppies turn them on their back and they're like,
Speaker 1: you know, they don't want to be under back, So
Speaker 1: you do the best. No matter how nice the dog is,
Speaker 1: the bets got to wrestle it right, right, there's those dogs.
Speaker 1: So what we would do is, let's say, once you
Speaker 1: get this dog home and he's let's say, twelve weeks old,
Speaker 1: and he's you kind of gotta wait till they show
Speaker 1: you a little teenager nos in them. You know, if
Speaker 1: they're just walking around a little dopey. I mean, there's
Speaker 1: not much resistance. But what would do is take this
Speaker 1: dog up onto an elevated platform, whether it's your picnic table,
Speaker 1: a tailgate. And yeah, but you have in your in
Speaker 1: your shop, you have actual training table. The ramp right,
Speaker 1: and that's used for a whole lot of stuff. So
Speaker 1: I just happened to use the ramp and the table um.
Speaker 1: But for a person, let's say when you got your
Speaker 1: dog home. Now, yours was four months old when you
Speaker 1: got it. You don't know the history of it. But
Speaker 1: let's say it was eight weeks from a breeder or
Speaker 1: a farmer had an accidental litter. If you were to
Speaker 1: take that dog and in a show where they call
Speaker 1: stacking it, we call it a calming touch. You get
Speaker 1: it to sit up there, and you've got a short leash,
Speaker 1: or you kind of hold it by the leash, you know,
Speaker 1: hold it by its collar. You take your other hand
Speaker 1: and you run it down its back and up its
Speaker 1: tail and down its legs. You'll see a lot of
Speaker 1: dogs you you go to grab their lower leg and
Speaker 1: they pull their leg up, and they pull their leg up. Well,
Speaker 1: there's ways to offset that, like if they if you're
Speaker 1: having trouble letting them. They just don't want you to
Speaker 1: touch their back left leg for some reason. You reach
Speaker 1: around and you take to the right back leg. You
Speaker 1: start putting pressure on that while you're it's almost like
Speaker 1: you're milking a cow. You grab their right rear leg
Speaker 1: and all of a sudden they put their left one down,
Speaker 1: and uh, they're like, they're like basically trusting you to
Speaker 1: give them a physical exam because you can't. You can't
Speaker 1: ask a dog do you get any ticks on you today?
Speaker 1: You can't ask a dog give a toothache. You can't
Speaker 1: ask your dog do you have a ear infection? So
Speaker 1: you want your dog to be able to your hands
Speaker 1: should be able to literally, uh, stroke the tail, stroke
Speaker 1: the legs open, the lips up, pick his ears up,
Speaker 1: pick his lips up, count his teeth while he's standing there,
Speaker 1: while he's standing there. Now, that doesn't happen in one course,
Speaker 1: but it's something that like all people would benefit when
Speaker 1: they bring home a new dog. You know, uh, well,
Speaker 1: my brother is training llamas, like breaking and training llamas.
Speaker 1: After you get to the point where you can just
Speaker 1: you know, they're very like they're not like a horse.
Speaker 1: They never become your friend. I'm sure someone will be like, oh,
Speaker 1: my lot was my best friend. But I mean generally
Speaker 1: they're they're not. They don't need that. They don't have
Speaker 1: that deep connection where they were. A lot of horses
Speaker 1: really seem to like appreciate a human presence like they're
Speaker 1: just they're a little more they're a little more wild.
Speaker 1: It's safe to say. They're Yeah, they're they're not quite there. Um,
Speaker 1: a thing is working to the point. It's just funny
Speaker 1: you mentioned the feet. A thing is working to the
Speaker 1: point where you can handle his feet right, and it
Speaker 1: takes a lot. It takes a lot to get there
Speaker 1: where you're gonna approach it and touch its foot because
Speaker 1: it's like a sign of like, okay, we've gotten somewhere
Speaker 1: that I can touch. And it's really all it is
Speaker 1: is let the dogs just gotta you know, get his
Speaker 1: composure and be like, okay, this is this will be
Speaker 1: over in a minute. And then after a while the
Speaker 1: dog really likes it. And you know what dog doesn't
Speaker 1: like to be competitive? Whose dog comes up and said,
Speaker 1: keep pet he keeps knocking your arm up. That same
Speaker 1: dog if I stuck him up on a cooler in
Speaker 1: your backyard and I want to start looking at his
Speaker 1: back legs. He probably yeah, away from my back legs.
Speaker 1: So even in our in our testing, during a utility
Speaker 1: test or natural ability test, when a dog comes out
Speaker 1: of the water, we feel their coat, We count their teeth,
Speaker 1: and we look at their eyes set to make sure
Speaker 1: they don't have like tropical and tropic eyelids. And we
Speaker 1: for males, we also check for testicles to make sure
Speaker 1: they don't are not mon orchid or missing testicles, both
Speaker 1: of them. And that goes into our notes. And that way,
Speaker 1: when somebody reads about a dog that they had sold
Speaker 1: to California, they're like, oh good, that puppy came out
Speaker 1: with odds teeth, two testicles, and a harsh coat. And
Speaker 1: and we get that on test day, like this dog,
Speaker 1: it won't let us look at its mouth. I mean,
Speaker 1: it's absolutely like a kid of a temper tantrum. You know,
Speaker 1: you can get bit actually if you if you're not careful,
Speaker 1: and that'll count against that dog. It won't count against it.
Speaker 1: But if we can't get the tooth, let's say, we
Speaker 1: can't get the tooth exam done. No matter what, the
Speaker 1: dogs just ain't doing it ain't doing it. Then we'll
Speaker 1: put a note on the car and we'll come into
Speaker 1: you know, when the magazine scores are posted, it'll say
Speaker 1: tooth exam, um, dog too sensitive for tooth exam. Uh right,
Speaker 1: But that also tells you, as you're buying a dog
Speaker 1: later on, like, well, that's rare. It's rare that we
Speaker 1: can't look in the dog's mouth. It's it's rare. It's
Speaker 1: it's a little bit of a rodeo while you're doing
Speaker 1: it sometimes. But I can always tell the people who
Speaker 1: did this calming touch their dog because dogs just stand
Speaker 1: there like just like a dentist. It's like, it's like,
Speaker 1: let what's I mean. I haven't been to the dentist
Speaker 1: with a kid in a long time. But what was
Speaker 1: your your kid's first dentist deployment? Oh, they're a little
Speaker 1: freaked out by the littlest one, right. He had to
Speaker 1: go home with no toy because and come back a
Speaker 1: couple of days later. But only they happened his brother
Speaker 1: and sister got the toys and it burned him up
Speaker 1: so bad. A couple days later he got all picked up,
Speaker 1: went back in there and got taken care of. But
Speaker 1: picture if you'd have took here. He had had stitches
Speaker 1: a few times, so he didn't like he the minute
Speaker 1: he got an He's like, no, I bet you even
Speaker 1: smells like an asept because like, I know what goes
Speaker 1: on here. We're gonna start selling something in my head. Right.
Speaker 1: But picture if you had a kid and you prepared
Speaker 1: this kid from a baby, like no, no, no, stop.
Speaker 1: Once they understand, like no, mom and dad just gonna
Speaker 1: look to see if that little if you did that
Speaker 1: over and over again, then you put him in a
Speaker 1: dentist chair. He's like, yeah, hey, my mom does that.
Speaker 1: It's it's such a simple thing to do with a dog.
Speaker 1: Should you be would they should it be that? Um
Speaker 1: like in your mind, if it's properly trained, should it
Speaker 1: be that you could that it could have it could
Speaker 1: be limping because it's got a cactus thorn and its paw.
Speaker 1: It should stand out there and let you pull that. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and the one guy like have your body like restrain
Speaker 1: it and tape It's joshut happens a lot. Remember I
Speaker 1: sent you the picture that wooden doll that you're strapping
Speaker 1: the dog's mouth to get porcupine quills. I've taken porcupine
Speaker 1: quills out of Bravo's mouth. He mouthed when he didn't
Speaker 1: kill it, and I just said sit and I just
Speaker 1: grabbed his big old lips and I got my leatherman
Speaker 1: out and started pulling. He just like, okay, a big deal, really,
Speaker 1: but other dogs you get bit oh that that had
Speaker 1: my brother's dog and they had it was like a
Speaker 1: group effort. I couldn't. I couldn't trim my my about
Speaker 1: like nail trimming, like Karen, can you trim your dog's nails?
Speaker 1: Or do you bring it to a place I do?
Speaker 1: I do everything on my own. And how how's your
Speaker 1: dog do with it? Great? I mean that That's what
Speaker 1: I was going to ask you. Is the takeaway for
Speaker 1: you know, everybody, the one yeah, exactly for everyone, the
Speaker 1: one thing because I, um, you know, I got a Newfoundland.
Speaker 1: This is like moved Montana. Always wanted a dog, so
Speaker 1: I just like went for the biggest freaking dog exactly
Speaker 1: exactly as much as I do. Um. But the one thing,
Speaker 1: you know, I was like getting obsessed with reading training
Speaker 1: books and watching videos online. The one thing that seemed
Speaker 1: to make the most sense to me, which wasn't exactly
Speaker 1: a training technique, but seems to be training is to
Speaker 1: touch that animal everywhere all the time. So I would
Speaker 1: stick my fingers in his mouth. I would, you know,
Speaker 1: touch its ears everything. You can literally take his ears
Speaker 1: and put a bowl in it if you wanted to. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean I give him hairstyles and I actually have
Speaker 1: tied his ears together, get like a little ponytail. Um.
Speaker 1: It's terrible. But it comes to clipping nails now, people
Speaker 1: have to go pay, you know, a groomer to do
Speaker 1: to trimm the dog's nails because the dog just freaks
Speaker 1: out because you're trimming its nails. My dog has to
Speaker 1: be put under. That's how bad it is. Phil. We
Speaker 1: took her somewhere, they had her muzzled and strapped, and
Speaker 1: they still couldn't do it. So they actually gave her
Speaker 1: a we she was astray on the Fort Peck Reservation.
Speaker 1: We don't know what her life was like before we
Speaker 1: adopted her, and so but like you can't go near
Speaker 1: her pause nothing. She's terrified. Yeah. Well, you know what's
Speaker 1: saddest thing they had to meet. One of the saddest
Speaker 1: things ever happened to me is uh, hang you left
Speaker 1: t l I that was sad. Remember remember and Miles
Speaker 1: Sab used to hang out out with that old guy
Speaker 1: West Monsel. He was in his nineties and his wife
Speaker 1: passed away, and me and him were out messing around,
Speaker 1: driving to try to find some mushrooms one time, and
Speaker 1: he was he was eighty seven at the time, or
Speaker 1: maybe he just turned he's I think he's eighty seven,
Speaker 1: and we get we we stayed out longer, and we
Speaker 1: were playing out and staying out and and uh, he
Speaker 1: wanted me to drive and drop him off at the doctor. Okay,
Speaker 1: So now I was kind of weird, like, oh, what's
Speaker 1: going on while he's got a doctor, you know? So
Speaker 1: I dropped off and he goes in there for a
Speaker 1: while and I just mess around wait from to come out.
Speaker 1: And we're driving home. I was like, what's what's going
Speaker 1: on at the doctor there? And he goes, I had
Speaker 1: to get my ton ails cut because my wife had
Speaker 1: always cut my tones. I can't reach down there, so
Speaker 1: you had to make an appointment at the doctor. I said,
Speaker 1: I cut your damn you know, he never had me
Speaker 1: do it. I was like, I'll cut your tonils. I
Speaker 1: don't care going to the doctor to cut your tonils.
Speaker 1: Just beat alone and old man. Yeah, get a loving
Speaker 1: family and everything, but just maybe sad, ye to make
Speaker 1: you sad. Hearing about that, it kind of creeped me
Speaker 1: out a little bit actually, because because now you're thinking,
Speaker 1: I'm thinking, like you know that book I was trying
Speaker 1: to write, real men don't wear short socks or crocs,
Speaker 1: and real men don't, you know, go to get a pedicure.
Speaker 1: And now I know guys that actually go get pedicures.
Speaker 1: It's not that he wasn't going to get a pedicure.
Speaker 1: He's going to a doctor to have his tone nails cut. Well,
Speaker 1: you know, he could have went to a pedicure place.
Speaker 1: He's probably not. He probably doesn't want to be that
Speaker 1: kind of guy. Or let's go, let's get back to dogs. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: I'll just feel sad about my friend by myself. Tell
Speaker 1: everybody about the Upland Institute project, okay, which we kind
Speaker 1: of been talking about without talking about it, right, right.
Speaker 1: So I have a very good friend that's a really
Speaker 1: well known dog trainer in West Michigan. I've known him
Speaker 1: off and on since he was really young, and uh,
Speaker 1: he's been training dogs for thirty years. Him and I
Speaker 1: kind of reconnected when he moved close to me and
Speaker 1: with me being a judge and seeing all the different
Speaker 1: things that our training related issues during a test, like
Speaker 1: our upper level tests are a lot of obedience. Our
Speaker 1: puppy test is a lot of just natural natural mo ability.
Speaker 1: What do you what do you roll under? Obedience, steadiness, retrieving, healing, waiting,
Speaker 1: you know, waiting when we go do shots away from
Speaker 1: the dog. Everything in that test there's a there's obedience
Speaker 1: portions of it like come on called falls in death, sure,
Speaker 1: primary will be right stay whoa um? So we're always
Speaker 1: sitting there kicking things back and forth about like oh
Speaker 1: I saw and he says, well, yeah, that's probably because
Speaker 1: the person didn't do this before they did that. And
Speaker 1: I think back on my testing career, which I don't
Speaker 1: test my dogs very often, but as a requirement, you
Speaker 1: are required as a judge to test your dog every
Speaker 1: so often because they want to put you on that
Speaker 1: side of the fence. So you don't. You're just not
Speaker 1: to judge your whole life. You gotta go there and
Speaker 1: go like me and my dog are here. Guys, Guys,
Speaker 1: remember I might be watching you next year. You know.
Speaker 1: Hell man, you should have seen me my last test.
Speaker 1: I was actually told that I was no longer a
Speaker 1: judge last January or no two januaryes ago. I said.
Speaker 1: Made they go, well, you went over your grace here.
Speaker 1: I'm like, oh, I didn't like. Yeah, we keep pretty
Speaker 1: good records. And I had to get a test lined
Speaker 1: up and I did, and it was bravo that big
Speaker 1: dog I have with a long tail, that big big broco.
Speaker 1: And we're not as in the test. But as a judge,
Speaker 1: I'm like, yeah, we're we're okay. I would be so
Speaker 1: unnerved in that environment. Man, we're not going to get
Speaker 1: all fours today. We have a zero to four. But
Speaker 1: I said, I got twos and threes in the right spot.
Speaker 1: We're okay. Last part of the test, last part of tests,
Speaker 1: the easiest part. They launched a duck with a launcher,
Speaker 1: like a big giant sling shot. They launched this duck
Speaker 1: across a duck, a duck, expired duck, dead duck, out
Speaker 1: of a launcher a giant sling shot. Huh. It's like
Speaker 1: it's like a four foot sling someone saves the duck
Speaker 1: from when we save it from other things, or we
Speaker 1: buy ducks like that. But anyway, every dog loves this.
Speaker 1: The dog. You know the birds up in the sky.
Speaker 1: You shoot the blank gun in the air to simulate
Speaker 1: the shot, which is another part of obedience. He's not
Speaker 1: allowed to leave until the duck hits the water out um,
Speaker 1: and and then you send the dog. And I'm like, oh,
Speaker 1: we're gonna pass. I'm gonna be a judge again. And
Speaker 1: Bravo just stood there on the bank and looked at
Speaker 1: that duck and I'm like, fetch, fetch, pitch it up.
Speaker 1: He's not budging, he's not putting his toe in the water.
Speaker 1: And I'm like, this dog loves fetching out of the water.
Speaker 1: I take this dog goose and duck hunting right. He's like,
Speaker 1: ain't doing it. And I'm like, what am I gonna do?
Speaker 1: So that you know the judges there and they all
Speaker 1: know me because you know, you make friends over the
Speaker 1: years and their dogs harshly. And I also know that
Speaker 1: to pass this portion, that dog has got to get
Speaker 1: that duck out of that water. All my pleading is
Speaker 1: going to bring my score down. But if I can
Speaker 1: get that duck to shore, I'll get a one. I'm
Speaker 1: pleading brings your score down, sure does? Oh yeah, here
Speaker 1: to make a way down if you can. So he
Speaker 1: just whisper plead. Well, yeah, I'm like I'm literally lit
Speaker 1: like I'm acting like I'm doing this on purpose. I'm
Speaker 1: stroking his back and like, good boy, fetch you, fetch
Speaker 1: I'm they're hearing good boy, good boy, and I'm gonna
Speaker 1: fetch you, fetch you and he's just like nope, nope,
Speaker 1: and they're like, what do you want to do it?
Speaker 1: So I have a you have an option? Do you
Speaker 1: not have an option to take a rock? Okay, now,
Speaker 1: I already know my score is down there, but if
Speaker 1: that duck comes back to Shore by his job, I'm
Speaker 1: gonna just like it in school, I'm gonna I'm gonna
Speaker 1: I'm gonna have low numbers and you're gonna let me
Speaker 1: graduate in high school even if I got to d mindus. Okay,
Speaker 1: it was just, you know, it was algebra. And finally,
Speaker 1: I don't know if it was the rock or what
Speaker 1: it was, but finally it was just like at that point,
Speaker 1: I'm going, really you Now, the judges like ron quitex
Speaker 1: so silly. I'm like I'm looking at Bravo and face like, really,
Speaker 1: you don't want me to be a judge again? You
Speaker 1: can't go out there and get that damn duck of me,
Speaker 1: and they're like, all right, rock calm down a little bit.
Speaker 1: I think I threw I can't remember if I threw
Speaker 1: a rocker. Finally, he just went, we're doing into the
Speaker 1: pond and swam out, got the duck, gave it to
Speaker 1: me like nothing. He just I don't know if he
Speaker 1: was messing with me. I don't know what he's doing,
Speaker 1: but yeah it was. He watched you, uh, demean all
Speaker 1: those other dogs, and he's like, you know what, body,
Speaker 1: and hear you ruin enough dogs days where I'm gonna
Speaker 1: ruin your I hear you all the time, what your
Speaker 1: friends talking about it. Watch Watch how I can make
Speaker 1: you nervous. I really thought, I'm like, oh my god,
Speaker 1: we are failing today. But anyway, project, Justin mcgrail and
Speaker 1: myself we started kicking around the idea of like what
Speaker 1: if I got a camera and kind of followed your
Speaker 1: process through a whole bunch of dogs. And it took
Speaker 1: us fifteen months to film it. We filmed it in
Speaker 1: four states because because Justin is a guy that um,
Speaker 1: he doesn't train dogs for testing. You know, he can
Speaker 1: do parts of it, but that's not he's he's trying
Speaker 1: and the dogs for a hunter wants to go wild
Speaker 1: bird hunting with your dog. So he literally takes strings
Speaker 1: of dogs to Kansas, runs them Montana before the season
Speaker 1: opens in August, same thing. Him and I went to
Speaker 1: North Dakota and filmed in August, and all that was
Speaker 1: reinforcing that yard training and that field training we did
Speaker 1: in Michigan. And we have real nice shots of like say,
Speaker 1: a bunch of sharp tails getting up and the dog
Speaker 1: just standing in the middle of the sharp tails just
Speaker 1: oh boy, you know, and he'll take a blank gun
Speaker 1: at that point and then he'll shoot the blank gun
Speaker 1: and dog stands through it. So that's the kind of
Speaker 1: style of training and his But but oh, it's very instructional.
Speaker 1: It in fact, it's not like look what the dog
Speaker 1: can do with the right training. It's like, how, here's
Speaker 1: how you do. And and we show examples like day one,
Speaker 1: like here's the dog the first time on a woe post.
Speaker 1: It's almost like the first time you try to train
Speaker 1: your dog trimmy dogs nails. He's jerking. He gets on
Speaker 1: this woe post, which is a solid steak like a
Speaker 1: horseshoe steak, and a little cable. First time he hits
Speaker 1: the end of well, he's bucking like a horse and
Speaker 1: he's he doesn't understand why, and you eventually when he doesn't,
Speaker 1: when he does give you what you want, which is
Speaker 1: him to just stand there, then you start overlaying a
Speaker 1: name to it, which in that case would be woe.
Speaker 1: It goes back like hell to you. Don't you don't
Speaker 1: start a dog. You don't teach a dog to heal
Speaker 1: with the word heal. You teach a dog to heal
Speaker 1: with motion and a leash. Once you see the compliance,
Speaker 1: then you give the command a name. And I watched him.
Speaker 1: He would come on my podcast about every six months,
Speaker 1: so I get listener questions and the way he breaks
Speaker 1: down a question, it's like always like number one downloaded episodes.
Speaker 1: They just love the way he even and it's hard to,
Speaker 1: you know, look at someone's dog from an email because
Speaker 1: you're not you're only getting what he said. My dog
Speaker 1: doesn't pick up the bird. Sometimes it does, and he's
Speaker 1: you know, he just breaks it down. And so we decided, Um,
Speaker 1: you know, I felt I was kind of confident from
Speaker 1: doing shows with you to watch the camera guy does,
Speaker 1: so I had I put myself in the job of
Speaker 1: the cameraman and followed him along for fifteen months, and
Speaker 1: I would we're really lucky that COVID hit so that
Speaker 1: shut my company down and I could go over to
Speaker 1: his kennel, I could go to Kansas, North Dakota. I
Speaker 1: had the whole year want to do whatever heck I
Speaker 1: wanted to and uh, and we were putting it together.
Speaker 1: It's it's an editing, it's an audio right now, and
Speaker 1: it's it's coming out hopefully by the time this errors,
Speaker 1: it should be out. And it's called the Upland Institute
Speaker 1: dot com or that's a website and what how's it
Speaker 1: going to function? Like if someone wants the material, what
Speaker 1: do they do to get the material? They would they
Speaker 1: would purchase the material. They there right now on the website.
Speaker 1: There's a trailer commercial that talks about it. And then
Speaker 1: there's in the beginning, we've got three three classes were offering.
Speaker 1: The one is called Foundation and Fundamentals. And that's when
Speaker 1: you were kind of talking about that you could do
Speaker 1: that with a lot of dogs. And that's what you're saying,
Speaker 1: any dog, dog, house dog, whatever, any dog would benefit
Speaker 1: because it's all that early stuff that expo. As you're
Speaker 1: putting the foundation blocks underneath it. It'll go a little
Speaker 1: bit further into introduction to birds and introduction to gunfire.
Speaker 1: But you know, in the beginning, like crate training, tie out, stake, calming,
Speaker 1: touch come one called early exploratory walks. Those are things
Speaker 1: that every dog should do with their owner. And people
Speaker 1: kind of get in this habit of like they treat
Speaker 1: that puppy like a little kid instead of like a dog,
Speaker 1: and they tend not to expose it to enough stuff.
Speaker 1: And then all of a sudden, the dogs six months
Speaker 1: old and goes to the dog parking dogs. You know,
Speaker 1: he's in a corner, you know, without the confidence. So um,
Speaker 1: foundation and fundamentals is like the core class. And then
Speaker 1: Brody you might know this little bit. Yanni doesn't do it,
Speaker 1: and I'm sure Clay doesn't do it in the hound world,
Speaker 1: but in the retrieving world, it's a thing called the
Speaker 1: trained retrieve. If your dog is a sloppy retriever or
Speaker 1: doesn't pick up game, or picks it up and drops
Speaker 1: it fifteen feet from you. Um, there's a process to
Speaker 1: go through to clean up that retrieve and called the
Speaker 1: trained retrieve. And it's got sixteen different parts to it,
Speaker 1: you know. But so that that's a separate class. A
Speaker 1: person could buy that class um if they just like, say,
Speaker 1: I don't care for my dog Steady, and he's pretty
Speaker 1: good dog, let's me clip clip his nails and he's
Speaker 1: already create trained, but I wouldn't mind some better retrieving
Speaker 1: out of him. So you could do that class. And
Speaker 1: then what piggybacks onto foundations and fundamentals is advanced bird work.
Speaker 1: That's where you would see a dog that not only
Speaker 1: would hold point, but learn to relocate on birds, learn
Speaker 1: to hunt with another dog, and back and honor another dog.
Speaker 1: It's like it's like an appointing dog world. If a
Speaker 1: dog's on point, another dog sees it. Ideally that dog
Speaker 1: is going to point the dog that's pointing the bird,
Speaker 1: he's like, oh, he's at work. I can't sneak up
Speaker 1: on him. Let him get his work done. My dogs
Speaker 1: don't do that. I mean, if I can get it
Speaker 1: ready for a test, I could do it, but I don't.
Speaker 1: I don't hunt him that way, you know. I just
Speaker 1: try to get good, trying to be a better wingshooter
Speaker 1: than I am a dog trainer. To be honest with
Speaker 1: you you mentioned Johnny's dog. I think the interesting thing
Speaker 1: about um, what mingus is supposed to do or what
Speaker 1: Clay's coon hounds are supposed to do, is a bird
Speaker 1: dog is supposed to He's kind of got to know
Speaker 1: all these things, right, Yeah, like just a lot of
Speaker 1: commands and stuff. Like the hound dogs they're kind of
Speaker 1: it's like they it's like, no, man, you got not that.
Speaker 1: Not that it's one thing, but all this stuff about sitting, healing,
Speaker 1: rolling over, shaking hands and all that's like not part
Speaker 1: of the conversation. It's like, did you do anything like
Speaker 1: that Yanni with him or were you just trying to
Speaker 1: get him on a raccoon early on? Yeah? No, we
Speaker 1: still I mean I want him to be a good
Speaker 1: uh family dog first and get companion, so I try
Speaker 1: to be real harsh on him with like when we're
Speaker 1: running together, come when I call, Yeah, come, money calls.
Speaker 1: We did a lot of work on the what's the
Speaker 1: long rope called rope fancy terms. You do do some
Speaker 1: of that house dog stuff. Oh yeah, I guess because
Speaker 1: it's your house dogs. Yeah exactly, Clay. You must have
Speaker 1: because I used to watch you did some of your
Speaker 1: YouTube's and one of your dogs is always on your
Speaker 1: you know, behind you during your podcast and during your
Speaker 1: YouTube stuff. Did you do a lot of obedience with
Speaker 1: your hounds? Very informal obedience training that that particular dog
Speaker 1: and and a lot of these dogs I'm hunting are
Speaker 1: just naturally pretty obedient and and you know, so informal
Speaker 1: training just by them being around me so much, you know.
Speaker 1: So what that is is like dogs get certain things inherited,
Speaker 1: and that's called cooperation with a dog on our scorecard.
Speaker 1: And so cooperative dog isn't a real challenge to live
Speaker 1: with if they're cooperative dog and done a little bit
Speaker 1: of overlank sit when stay, or wait to give you
Speaker 1: a food bowl. But there's a lot of dogs that
Speaker 1: have a super high desire, like their desires at attend
Speaker 1: and their co operations at a two and so they're
Speaker 1: they're like, I hate that. I always analogize kids to it.
Speaker 1: They're like that kid that can't sit down in class,
Speaker 1: always getting yelled at, always getting put in the hall.
Speaker 1: The teachers like, oh, we gotta put them on ridland.
Speaker 1: You know. That's kind of like there's bird dogs and
Speaker 1: hounds I'm sure that are much like that. They're almost
Speaker 1: like a it's like a three ring circus getting them
Speaker 1: in and out of the truck. And where I would
Speaker 1: venture to say that you could tell your home dogs
Speaker 1: to sit open one door and load one up if
Speaker 1: you cared to do it. But I've never really spent
Speaker 1: any time with a lot of houndsmen a little bit.
Speaker 1: You know, there's there's there's a lot of variants in
Speaker 1: the hounds. Some of them are not and I've heard
Speaker 1: the term used biddable there. There there's some strains of
Speaker 1: hounds that are just they're just not interested in that.
Speaker 1: They're just not that good. Not to say it couldn't
Speaker 1: be done, but primaries, primarily it's an issue of function.
Speaker 1: We just don't use them that way, so we don't
Speaker 1: need them trained that way. But I think even if
Speaker 1: you could train them that way, it did they would
Speaker 1: never be most of them would never be as good
Speaker 1: as maybe some of the bird dogs that have been
Speaker 1: bred for so long to be cooperative. I got a
Speaker 1: odd question for you, then we'll open up Membail has
Speaker 1: got specific dog questions. But first of all, you guys,
Speaker 1: where do people go find the well? You just you know,
Speaker 1: type in upland institute. And what's they'll find the website
Speaker 1: if you do that. Yeah, www upland Institute dot com.
Speaker 1: That's the name of it. And it's available when people
Speaker 1: are listening to this, it's available, should be available. If
Speaker 1: if for any reason it's not available, you know, you
Speaker 1: can just put a email. There's an email sign up
Speaker 1: page and notifind me when it is. But it's like
Speaker 1: an ola carte transaction. You picked the things you want downloaded,
Speaker 1: right you you you pick the courses you want, and
Speaker 1: you download it and it's yours for life. Ron. I'd
Speaker 1: like to commend you only what four episodes being on
Speaker 1: the show, you picked up all that knowledge. Is a photographer,
Speaker 1: it's well shot, it's pretty I'm like, I'm impressed he
Speaker 1: was taking notes there there. I did take notes, and
Speaker 1: I was always shocked with your your videographers in the field.
Speaker 1: And and I remember you told me to editing has
Speaker 1: got a big thing to do with it. It's all
Speaker 1: to do. You gotta still be good with the camera.
Speaker 1: But when we started, like day one, when we started
Speaker 1: doing this, I went out and bought a GoPro and
Speaker 1: like called up my son in law, who he's an
Speaker 1: editor for another hunting company and he said, what do
Speaker 1: you goetta go pro for? I said, well I wouldn't.
Speaker 1: He goes, no, you need a movie camera. And I
Speaker 1: called up I think it was Rick or Garrett. One
Speaker 1: of them was real good. He got back with me
Speaker 1: and he told me the brand of camera that we
Speaker 1: shot in Montana. He said, that's you'll be able to
Speaker 1: figure out how to use it. It doesn't have too
Speaker 1: many features, but it'll it'll be everything you need. So
Speaker 1: then I went out and spent a bunch of money
Speaker 1: on the camera. And then I was like, well, we
Speaker 1: gotta do this now, you know, because it's invested. I'm invested, right,
Speaker 1: and uh just just uh yeah. So there was a
Speaker 1: secret to a lot of it. It's called the tripod,
Speaker 1: which you guys, we never carry tripods for the camera
Speaker 1: guys out there, but um, when whenever I could set
Speaker 1: something up because we kind of know what's gonna happen,
Speaker 1: but what you're doing instructional, so it's different, right, right,
Speaker 1: So we'll shoot off sticks like they'll shoot off sticks
Speaker 1: now and that on food stuff. But generally we like
Speaker 1: that kind of like um moving around like like like
Speaker 1: it's like with the body, you know what I mean yeah,
Speaker 1: like it feels more human to human. You know, it
Speaker 1: has more of a like a present quality to it's
Speaker 1: free hand. Yeah, you don't call it freehand though, what
Speaker 1: the hell they call it? Yeah? Freehand? Sure, but can
Speaker 1: I see my dog? No? I mean Yanni never, he
Speaker 1: doesn't compliment made people buy anything. Well, I do appreciate that.
Speaker 1: And I also found out that I also found out
Speaker 1: that editors, well I just I'm saying he doesn't throw
Speaker 1: them around. Let me put it differently, Yanni doesn't run
Speaker 1: around given compliments where they're not doing all right. Well,
Speaker 1: then yes it is if you get one. It was
Speaker 1: good visually, it's very pleasant to watch. It's well, he
Speaker 1: doesn't blow a bunch of smoke. No, okay this in now.
Speaker 1: I was told recently that I'm stingy with my likes
Speaker 1: on the Instagram. People know that he can anybody crop
Speaker 1: right now, listen. I like it because you don't run
Speaker 1: around just shine everybody up all the time. And when
Speaker 1: it was a compliment, you pay, you pay attention to
Speaker 1: the compliment. It's an earned compliment. I feel good when
Speaker 1: you're honest. HiT's something like button on mine. Steve never,
Speaker 1: Steve never does anymore. Come on, don't know what I do.
Speaker 1: Let me get my other shot. I'm not that fond
Speaker 1: of the platform, but I should have said this, so
Speaker 1: we we were going to start an Instagram account for that,
Speaker 1: but that's not something I'm counting on. I'm advertising this
Speaker 1: in magazines and partners of mine and from the podcast,
Speaker 1: so all this information will keep coming up on my
Speaker 1: Instagram count which is the Hunting Dog Podcast. Don't go
Speaker 1: to my name, go to the hunting Dog podcast. That's
Speaker 1: your handle that yeah, no underscores and the lashes the
Speaker 1: hunting Dog Hunting Dog Podcast on Instagram, and we'll put
Speaker 1: up notifications and clips and stuff like that so you
Speaker 1: can also get information from that. I'm glad you said Instagram.
Speaker 1: Here's my dog question. I kind of know the answer
Speaker 1: to it, but I just i'd like to hear you
Speaker 1: say about it. Um our little dog will heal for me? Okay,
Speaker 1: and it will heal on command off leash or on
Speaker 1: a leash either. That's impressive. It does it farther away
Speaker 1: off leash? Sure? Because no, because I don't I don't
Speaker 1: have the ability to get its attention right, but it'll
Speaker 1: like it kind of knows. I'm talking about right unleash
Speaker 1: dead nuts. But it won't do the command for other people.
Speaker 1: But in like sophisticated dog training, I'm guessing that you
Speaker 1: like do do you guys? Um? Do you guys view
Speaker 1: it that a dog should be that any handler should
Speaker 1: be able to come in and get out of the
Speaker 1: dog or is it handler specific? I I would say
Speaker 1: if somebody had a dog that was really well rounded,
Speaker 1: I could probably take him to a test and pass him.
Speaker 1: And healing is in the test, so he would probably
Speaker 1: acquiesced and saying okay, he's my owner today. But most
Speaker 1: dogs would act differently without their owner. But I get
Speaker 1: it with the differently. But but like a properly trained horse, yeah,
Speaker 1: it's almost like horse are probably gonna I should ruin
Speaker 1: us by my sister in law. My understanding of a
Speaker 1: properly trained horse is that riders can be interchangeable. Yeah,
Speaker 1: there's a style of riding. A rider should get on
Speaker 1: that horse, and it should it shouldn't need to figure
Speaker 1: out you know, it's like this means that, this means that,
Speaker 1: and the basics are squeeze the legs mean this, the
Speaker 1: rain like these basic commands that if you're a ride
Speaker 1: or you ride a certain style and the horse's right,
Speaker 1: you should be able to be functional with the horse.
Speaker 1: But I always see dogs that they're just not gonna
Speaker 1: listen to most people, and then there's a person to
Speaker 1: listen to, right, And I think that just comes from
Speaker 1: them being a pack animal. Like somehow you've established yourself
Speaker 1: as to alpha and the dog kind of understands that,
Speaker 1: and like, well, when Steve tells me that, he means it.
Speaker 1: And if the kids try to do it, you know,
Speaker 1: I bet you you probably work more with a dog
Speaker 1: than the kids do. Well. When I when it doesn't
Speaker 1: do what I say on that least, it doesn't go unnoticed, right,
Speaker 1: you know, like right, and that's how you snap you
Speaker 1: if you give it a little now you don't. I mean,
Speaker 1: I don't need to do anything now. I just need
Speaker 1: to like just give it a little jiggle. And she's like, oh, yeah,
Speaker 1: I'm good. I don't think she likes it. I think
Speaker 1: when I got around the least, she's like, damn it,
Speaker 1: this guy probably like that dog given given themselves. They
Speaker 1: just feel like a horse they've given. If a horse
Speaker 1: had his choice, he'd be out in the pasture. He
Speaker 1: wouldn't be rolled can I think about it. They're like, really,
Speaker 1: I gotta care your dumb mess around all day, you know,
Speaker 1: and a dog to say, way, like if you did
Speaker 1: do nothing with a dog, the co operative ones are
Speaker 1: gonna be able to be lived with, and the wild
Speaker 1: ones are gonna drive it crazy. They're just always going
Speaker 1: to be into something because there's no structure. It goes
Speaker 1: right back to kids, no structure, no foundation, you're dealing
Speaker 1: with problems down the road. Later on, Yeah, I had
Speaker 1: a guy to say something interested me the other day
Speaker 1: about kids, and we were talking about having rough dads.
Speaker 1: He was saying that, you know, after spending his career
Speaker 1: in public education as an administrator and then having you know,
Speaker 1: his own family as well, he said, I used to
Speaker 1: be worried about being too hard on my kids, But
Speaker 1: after the things I've seen in my career, I realized
Speaker 1: that the people that are too hard on their kids
Speaker 1: have it just about right. That's kind of that goes
Speaker 1: with dogs. You gotta be there's a there's a point
Speaker 1: of you have to I'm the boss, you know, and
Speaker 1: you're and you're not. I remember, um, yeah, you probably
Speaker 1: don't even remember this, but I remember you, uh and
Speaker 1: talking about because you had kids before I had kids,
Speaker 1: you know, tad older than I am, and U two dads. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and just your thing about um, I'm not here to
Speaker 1: beat your friend. Oh you'll do that later, but right now,
Speaker 1: this isn't about us be friends. Oh it's right when
Speaker 1: I would, you know, I would go on those rants
Speaker 1: and rays. It's like when somebody's like, oh, I want
Speaker 1: my kid to be my their best friend, Like, well,
Speaker 1: then your kid doesn't have one, because if you're your
Speaker 1: kid's best friend, man, he's a lonely kid. Your best
Speaker 1: friend should be in a pup tent when you're twelve
Speaker 1: years old, sleeping in the backyard. Shouldn't be you. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: my kids are my friends now. Yeah, because they weren't
Speaker 1: back then. They're like, may he finally likes me. I
Speaker 1: mean I didn't even go to sports games, you know.
Speaker 1: It's like I didn't join I didn't join tennis. Why
Speaker 1: would I go to tennis game. I'm not interested in tennis.
Speaker 1: I wanted to join baseball. When I was a kid.
Speaker 1: My dad says, you're terrible. You can't catch or anything.
Speaker 1: And I'm like, yeah, but my buddy Rusty, he's in
Speaker 1: a little league and I want to go in Little
Speaker 1: League and he goes, all right, all right, fine, we're
Speaker 1: gonna get you, but you're going to every game and
Speaker 1: every practice. He never showed up to one. It was
Speaker 1: my job to get on my bike and go there.
Speaker 1: And it was miserable. I have learned a lot. You
Speaker 1: kind to realize this, but I actually like picked up
Speaker 1: like a handful of I didn't have a ton of
Speaker 1: exposure to you and your kids because we were working
Speaker 1: and stuff or hunting or whatever, but I picked up
Speaker 1: a handful of like, um, it's hard to explain it,
Speaker 1: just like I recognized early on, like a demeanor the
Speaker 1: way you spoke to your kids. Uh, I don't know,
Speaker 1: there's like like authority but understanding on equal footing but
Speaker 1: not you know, it was like it was it was
Speaker 1: you spoke to your kids in a deliberate sort of way.
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, yeah, you know. There was not like sweet
Speaker 1: talking people know it. It was it was very conversational
Speaker 1: with them, like kind of like leveling with them. I
Speaker 1: picked up on that, you know, I like I noticed
Speaker 1: it even prior to having kids, that there was a it.
Speaker 1: It didn't seem accidental, you know, it seemed like it
Speaker 1: was a developed way to deal with kids. I'll give
Speaker 1: I'll give Sue most of the credit because I was
Speaker 1: working on the road, but that way of I mean literally,
Speaker 1: i'd get compliments. I could take my three girls when
Speaker 1: they were ten or twelve years old to a dog
Speaker 1: test and I never had a They weren't climbing on anything,
Speaker 1: they weren't starting trouble. They're just they occupy themselves, you
Speaker 1: know that Just it's just the way you raise him.
Speaker 1: It's funny how you wind up making it your own.
Speaker 1: Like my boy there, they were on a plane and
Speaker 1: he wanted to get water something. I said, we'll go
Speaker 1: up and talk to that moment up there and get water.
Speaker 1: You know, a while later she comes back. You have
Speaker 1: the nicest boy. You know, makes my weak But how
Speaker 1: many parents would have said, okay, I'll go get it
Speaker 1: for you. So you make him. You're gonna go out
Speaker 1: there and here's what you're saying. You're telling this and
Speaker 1: get the thing. When I came to your house last night,
Speaker 1: all three kids go up and you haven't seen Ronnie
Speaker 1: in a long time, go up and shake Ronnie's hand. Yeah,
Speaker 1: you know, and you know the kids are so But
Speaker 1: I hope by the time they're eighteen, they'll do it
Speaker 1: without me, Like they'll you know, not embarrassing the people
Speaker 1: in the eye, and they'll shake their hand when they
Speaker 1: interview for a job. Someday. That's all. That's all you
Speaker 1: can hope for. Yeah, and alays got a dog question? Yeah,
Speaker 1: can you teach an old dog trick? Seriously? Like in
Speaker 1: regards to let's say someone I've always wanted this. Like,
Speaker 1: let's say someone there's a there's a German short hair
Speaker 1: pointer that's a year or two old at the pound
Speaker 1: that was never it was just someone's house dog and
Speaker 1: they got rid of it. It's never kept chewing up
Speaker 1: the couch and and someone's like, man, I don't want
Speaker 1: to pay two tho dollars for a bread puppy, but
Speaker 1: I'm gonna get this dog from the pound and turn
Speaker 1: it into a bird dog. Like can that be done? Oh? Yeah?
Speaker 1: The problem is if you adopt a dog, and I
Speaker 1: think Yanni could probably speak to it because he he
Speaker 1: adopted a hunting dog from a brand new one, but
Speaker 1: no idea what his background was, no background. So if
Speaker 1: you don't have the background, let's say on that German
Speaker 1: short hair like an older one it might come from
Speaker 1: what's called what we would refer to as a showline.
Speaker 1: Like so the dogs were in the show ring and
Speaker 1: really not hunted for the last that dog's parents, grandparents,
Speaker 1: great grandparents, they just didn't hunt much. They're still gonna
Speaker 1: have instincts, They're still gonna be okay. But you could
Speaker 1: certainly get a dog from a pound. And I know
Speaker 1: there's a guy who rescues dogs where his wife does,
Speaker 1: and he whenever a like an English setter and English
Speaker 1: pointer or something shows up in the sporting dog world,
Speaker 1: he takes it in and he hunts with them. They
Speaker 1: can they can learn obedience, you know, like their genetics
Speaker 1: don't expire and they can learn there and that nothing
Speaker 1: no genetics expire. The nose is going to be there
Speaker 1: the whole time. The love of birds, it's like like
Speaker 1: the big here's one. I again. I love analogies. My
Speaker 1: biggest problem is when people call me up, they'll ask
Speaker 1: those questions like can my dogs still do this? And
Speaker 1: I never did it? Yes? And then the other one
Speaker 1: is I got this brand new dog, when should I
Speaker 1: get it into birds? Everybody wants to see their dog
Speaker 1: point a bird first, right, So my buddy says, oh,
Speaker 1: I gotta I got some quail or there's a hunt
Speaker 1: club over here. They'll let you go after a test
Speaker 1: and we'll bring your puppy out there. And I'm like, okay,
Speaker 1: that's fine, you want to see it once. But people
Speaker 1: overdo it and I keep in They're like, so, Ron,
Speaker 1: you're telling me I don't need to get my young
Speaker 1: dog in front of birds. And I always tell him,
Speaker 1: you know, did your dad leave a Playboy magazine on
Speaker 1: the counter so you when you hit Pubert you would
Speaker 1: like it? No? I mean, yeah, I understand, right, you
Speaker 1: don't need to expose them that. The difference in the
Speaker 1: dog and a kid is the dog gets to be
Speaker 1: a teenager by the time he's ten months old, and
Speaker 1: a teenager takes thirteen years. But again, throwing that Playboy
Speaker 1: magazine in front of him, that's not what they need.
Speaker 1: They need the shaking hands waiting to be released. They
Speaker 1: need opening the door. They need the structure, the pointing
Speaker 1: instinct and the love of the game is genetically in
Speaker 1: the dog. One last question, Yeah, what's the uh what's
Speaker 1: the advice you'd give to any new either new dog owner,
Speaker 1: anyone bringing home a rescue dog, A puppy, Like, what's
Speaker 1: the thing they need to get on? Uh? For for one?
Speaker 1: Always create training. You know if you a lot of
Speaker 1: people try to do without a create. Create training is
Speaker 1: super important for a young dog. Okay, a create would
Speaker 1: be like a portable transportation create. You'll see him on airlines,
Speaker 1: they call him airline creates. Um getting a getting a
Speaker 1: puppy used to sleeping in that crate by himself learning
Speaker 1: not it helps him to not develop separation anxiety. Like,
Speaker 1: it's what training mean. He's comfortable in there. He's comfortable
Speaker 1: in there. Now his first day in there, he's gonna
Speaker 1: bark and squawk and yell and and it's just like
Speaker 1: the first time you put a baby in a crib
Speaker 1: when they're old enough to cry. If you are putting
Speaker 1: them down for a nap and they cry and you're
Speaker 1: going and get him, what did they do? Oh? I cry?
Speaker 1: Mom comes get me. So if your dogs crying and
Speaker 1: out on the couch and just basically crying ourselves, it's
Speaker 1: exact same thing with a puppy. You gotta you just
Speaker 1: gotta put the music up higher and let him cry
Speaker 1: himself to sleep, and then the next day he'll fuss
Speaker 1: a little bit more or a little bit less, and
Speaker 1: then after a while he's like, oh, that's where I
Speaker 1: go and it's not my time to be with people.
Speaker 1: And then later on you'll see it's real common if
Speaker 1: you have a crate in the house, Like if somebody
Speaker 1: comes over, you got a dog that you don't want.
Speaker 1: Her baby comes over, you don't you know a little
Speaker 1: toddler tell a dog to go to create, but you'll find,
Speaker 1: like my wife's dog, You're like, where did dog go?
Speaker 1: And you look at the create doors open, he's in there, sleeping.
Speaker 1: It becomes his little Yeah, it's his place. Yeah, So
Speaker 1: I mean create trading and socialization being trying to do
Speaker 1: as much as you can with the dog. Get the
Speaker 1: dog in front of other people, let other people handle
Speaker 1: it if they're willing. Um. Try to get your whole family,
Speaker 1: even if you've got young kids, try to get them
Speaker 1: all to do a little of this hands on stuff.
Speaker 1: So that dog kind of goes a little bit down
Speaker 1: the pack line. It's like, oh, even a little toddler
Speaker 1: has to look at my mouth. Jeez, what's yeah, I'll say,
Speaker 1: dog won't look my youngest in the eye. Right. He
Speaker 1: tries to act like he does exist. It's like looks
Speaker 1: in the corner and I'll bet you somewhere along the line,
Speaker 1: your youngest just kind of grabbed his tail or something
Speaker 1: and he's like that thing. It's like, I can't bite him,
Speaker 1: but I don't. I can't. They can't make me look
Speaker 1: at him either. Nope, Nope, I can't bite him, but
Speaker 1: I don't have to like him. Uh getty. Ron Bam
Speaker 1: Upland Institute Project Hunting Dog Podcast, Ron Bam, thank you,
Speaker 1: Thank you, and thank you Steve for having me come
Speaker 1: out and getting to spread the word with you anytime,
Speaker 1: almost anytime, anytime, anytime, anytime I can get ahold of
Speaker 1: Karin schedule me to come out, provide her was something
Speaker 1: that tittilates us, and you'll be on the show. We
Speaker 1: could do a whole another one. It would be nothing
Speaker 1: to do with dogs, just all those fun all those
Speaker 1: things that have happened to me that are you see
Speaker 1: what we're working with here. You gotta wait till you
Speaker 1: fill up a thingful of subject ideas, and be warned,
Speaker 1: next time you here, we're gonna have our little dials
Speaker 1: with a light in the middle, so you'll be Ron.
Speaker 1: I'll probably break that thing. Oh yeah, it just depends
Speaker 1: on coming the door and it's gonna turn it to
Speaker 1: full black. That's it, red light. Thank you, Steve, thank you,
Speaker 1: Johnny Brody, thank you everybody. Thank you, Phil, Good Clay, Nucomb, Nucomb,
Speaker 1: thanks for joining man Hey, thanks for having me pleasure.
Speaker 1: Good Clay. Yeah, Clay and I talked five years ago
Speaker 1: when I first started the podcast. You didn't know him
Speaker 1: at all back then. Now, Yeah, it's true. We go
Speaker 1: way back, all right, boys, see you all right, see
Speaker 1: you