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Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind, a production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 2: Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. My name's

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Speaker 2: Robert Lamb. On today's episode, I chat with distinguished theoretical

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Speaker 2: physicist and a professor of natural philosophy, physics, and astronomy

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Speaker 2: at Dartmouth College, Marcello Gliser, the first Latin American recipient

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Speaker 2: of the Templeton Prize. His new book is The Dawn

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Speaker 2: of a Mindful Universe, a manifesto for Humanity's future, out

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Speaker 2: now in all formats, and it's just a tremendous read

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Speaker 2: to kick off a new year with optimism and determination

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Speaker 2: about our relationship to the planet. So without further Ado,

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Speaker 2: let's jump right into the interview. Hi, Marcello, Welcome to

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Speaker 2: the show.

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Speaker 3: My pleasure. Thanks Rob.

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Speaker 2: The new book is The Dawn of a Mindful Universe,

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Speaker 2: out now in all formats. You stress that this is

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Speaker 2: not an doom book about the dire trajectory of human civilization.

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Speaker 2: You point out that, particularly with the existential crisis of

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Speaker 2: climate change, scare tactics don't seem to work. What is

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Speaker 2: it about humans that make us so resistant to change?

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Speaker 2: When confronted with problems like climate change?

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 4: So I think what makes climate change different is that

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Speaker 4: you don't see the eminent danger in front of your face.

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Speaker 3: You know.

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Speaker 4: It's not sort of like the Japanese just bald pearl harbor,

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Speaker 4: we got to mobilize and five back kind of thing.

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Speaker 3: You know. It's sort of like.

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Speaker 4: This slow, slowly encroaching thing, and we tend to not

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Speaker 4: push back whenever we don't feel this kind of oh

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Speaker 4: my god, you know, the world is about to end

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Speaker 4: kind of thing. And so there is a disconnect between

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Speaker 4: what people keep saying, Look, global warming, it's real, it's happening.

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Speaker 4: You know, it's affecting all of us. For example, I

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Speaker 4: live in northern New England.

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Speaker 3: And it's late December here and there is no snow

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Speaker 3: right then.

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Speaker 4: There should be two feet of snow out there, and

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Speaker 4: it's like, oh, it's al Nino. It's normal. It's not

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Speaker 4: really normal.

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Speaker 3: You know.

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Speaker 4: This is the hottest year ever recorded apparently in the planet.

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Speaker 4: So I'm talking about twenty twenty three. And so that

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Speaker 4: means that I think the problem, the challenge that people

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Speaker 4: have is convincing people of two things. First of all,

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Speaker 4: that yes, it's not happening right now, but it's happening slowly,

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Speaker 4: and when it starts unfolding, it's going to just get

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Speaker 4: worse and more challenging.

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Speaker 3: So it's like the slow approach to the danger.

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Speaker 4: And the other one is that most people say that,

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Speaker 4: you know, I'm just one person.

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Speaker 3: What am I going to do?

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Speaker 4: You know, if I stop eating meat right now, it's

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Speaker 4: not going to make a difference, And if I buy

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Speaker 4: an electric car, it's not going to make a difference,

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Speaker 4: because I'm just a little little person in this giant

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Speaker 4: eight billion people world controlled by corporations and governments. So

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Speaker 4: my actions are useless.

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Speaker 3: And the point is that that is only true to

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Speaker 3: a certain degree, because what you do is a statement

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Speaker 3: of who you are and why you believe in right,

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Speaker 3: and the way you position yourself in the world.

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Speaker 4: Really is a mirror of your attitudes and your value system.

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Speaker 4: And so if you are a person that is bothered

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Speaker 4: by global arming, by the fact that the big oil

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Speaker 4: companies are polluting the world because we need the fuel

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Speaker 4: and that's the only way mostly that we can use it,

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Speaker 4: you can do something about it, not so much to

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Speaker 4: stop global arming by yourself, but to make a statement.

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Speaker 3: And I am an optimist. That's why when you talk

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Speaker 3: about doom.

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Speaker 4: You know, like, I'm an optimist and I think that

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Speaker 4: the alternative, you know, to be a pessimist is a

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Speaker 4: total disaster, right, because you know, I grew up in Brazil,

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Speaker 4: and as you know, Brazil, we love soccer, and so

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Speaker 4: I'm using a soccer metaphor, which is this, right, So

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Speaker 4: if you are pessimists, you're the kind of guy that

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Speaker 4: is going to go to a game and even before

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Speaker 4: the ball is kicked for the first time, you sit

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Speaker 4: down on the ground and say, oh, there's no way

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Speaker 4: I can win this game.

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Speaker 3: I'm giving up, you know. And what kind of game

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Speaker 3: is that? Right? What kind of life is that? So

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Speaker 3: you have to try to.

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Speaker 4: Make a difference and make a statement because you will

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Speaker 4: influence people around you. And I think that I'm a

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Speaker 4: believer in the chain reaction of social forces, and so

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Speaker 4: that as more and more people engage with this way

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Speaker 4: of thinking about preservation sustainability, the more difference you know,

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Speaker 4: we are going to feel in a society as a whole.

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Speaker 4: It's a big, big challenge, but I think it's possible.

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Speaker 2: In the book, you propose a transformation of the collective mindset,

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Speaker 2: particularly the adoption of a post Copernican worldview. Can can

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Speaker 2: you walk us through this beginning with just a reminder

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Speaker 2: of who Nicholas Copernicus was and how he helped transform

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Speaker 2: an established worldview.

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Speaker 3: Absolutely, So this is a very long story. This is

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Speaker 3: sort of the core kind of aspect of the whole book.

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Speaker 4: And the idea is this that even before Copernicus's starting,

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Speaker 4: really from the beginning, if you think about our species, right,

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Speaker 4: so we are Homo sapiens, and we've been here on

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Speaker 4: this planet for about three hundred thousand years. Just give

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Speaker 4: perspective to people, if you look at the history of

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Speaker 4: the world, right, the planet Earth, Right, planet Earth has

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Speaker 4: been around for four and a half billion years. So

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Speaker 4: if you take three hundred thousand of four and a

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Speaker 4: half billion years, you're talking. And if you take four

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Speaker 4: and a half billionaires and compress it into twenty four

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Speaker 4: hours in one day, right, we basically arrived a few

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Speaker 4: seconds before midnight. So we are the newcomers on the planet, right,

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Speaker 4: that's for sure. But on the other hand, we have

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Speaker 4: changed the planet dramatically. And it's not three hundred thousand

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Speaker 4: years of Homo SAPIs that did it is about ten

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Speaker 4: thousand years of agrarian and industrial civilization. That they did

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Speaker 4: it so in about ten thousand years, which changed everything.

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Speaker 4: So if we look at our history sort of like

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Speaker 4: in what we call deep time, right, so we start

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Speaker 4: from the beginning. For most of the time that we

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Speaker 4: existed in this planet, we were organized socially.

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Speaker 3: In a completely different way. Were what we call hunter gatherers, right,

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Speaker 3: So people organize themselves into small bands.

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Speaker 4: They all helped one another. The idea that we're savage

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Speaker 4: caveman is kind of silly and it's old fashioned. You know,

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Speaker 4: all the anthropology studies now mentioned that actually those bands

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Speaker 4: of hunter gatherers they'd stuck together, but they also collaborated, interbred,

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Speaker 4: you know, with.

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Speaker 3: Each other, and they had a relationship to the planet.

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Speaker 4: And this is the essential point, which is very very

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Speaker 4: different from the one we have now. And nowadays, the

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Speaker 4: only cultures that still relate to the planet.

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Speaker 3: In a similar way other indigenous cultures. And what do

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Speaker 3: they say. They say the planet is sacred, right, that the.

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Speaker 4: Mountains, the rivers, the forests, the animals, everyone is interconnected

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Speaker 4: in a very fundamental way. And you have to respect

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Speaker 4: this chain of being because if you don't, you're going

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Speaker 4: to pay a very high price. So there was this

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Speaker 4: notion of everything had an enchanted kind of reality about it.

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Speaker 4: There were spirits everywhere. The ancestors were there too, and

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Speaker 4: there was really no separation between the reality that we

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Speaker 4: see with our eyes right now and this kind of

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Speaker 4: fantastic other world of spirits and forces beyond their control.

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Speaker 4: So there was a way of dealing with the planet

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Speaker 4: which was in a sense deeply respectful.

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Speaker 3: Right.

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Speaker 4: So with a grand civilization, many wonderful things happened. For example,

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Speaker 4: we started to plant and we could feed more people,

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Speaker 4: and of course of that, the population started to grow,

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Speaker 4: and we started to condense more and more into small

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Speaker 4: areas which became city states.

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Speaker 3: And you know, life expectancy didn't grow much for that

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Speaker 3: because once we start putting a lot of people together,

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Speaker 3: there all sorts of issues like sewage and diseases. And

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Speaker 3: so for most of the history of our species, the

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Speaker 3: life expectancy was between thirty and forty years old. This

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Speaker 3: is including Victoria and England in nineteenth century. We never

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Speaker 3: lived very long.

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Speaker 4: But the point back to your question is that what

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Speaker 4: changed with their ground civilization was the notion that now

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Speaker 4: we can control the planet, we can control nature. Look,

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Speaker 4: we are planting, we are making things grow, we can

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Speaker 4: domesticate animals, and more and more.

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Speaker 3: We felt like we are the owners of the place.

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Speaker 4: Right, And it is no coincidence when you look look

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Speaker 4: at monotoistic religions which came at about the same time,

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Speaker 4: you know, Judaism and then Christianity, they all talk about

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Speaker 4: us as being above the world. You know, God created

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Speaker 4: the land to serve you. You take ownership of the animals,

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Speaker 4: et cetera. That's in Genesis in the Bible. Right to say,

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Speaker 4: all right, this is our place, this is our world.

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Speaker 4: We control it, and we are above nature. And this notion,

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Speaker 4: you know, that we are above nature kind of pervaded

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Speaker 4: all of what happened in the last two thousand years

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Speaker 4: that we are going to be creating technologies that we

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Speaker 4: can't use to basically protect us from the forces of

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Speaker 4: the world. Right, So we build our homes, we warm

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Speaker 4: them up, we create clothes, they are warm, we eat

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Speaker 4: and cook our food, etc.

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Speaker 3: So we tried to really control the forces of nature.

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Speaker 3: But then comes a storm.

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Speaker 4: There comes about panic eruption, or an earthquake or a

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Speaker 4: tidal wave. And to teachers that you know what folks

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Speaker 4: is not that simple, right. We are not really above nature.

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Speaker 4: We are really very much part of the natural world, right.

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Speaker 4: But we kept on going and became very successful developing technologies.

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Speaker 3: And this is our story, right. We are a species

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Speaker 3: that tells stories about who we are and the place

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Speaker 3: we have been. Now back to Copernicus. So Copernicus showed

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Speaker 3: up in the early fifteen hundreds, and in fifteen forty

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Speaker 3: three he wrote a book.

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Speaker 4: He published the book which is sort of like the

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Speaker 4: big book of his life, okay, And the book was

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Speaker 4: called on the Revolution of.

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Speaker 3: The Celestial Spheres. And what the story was with that

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Speaker 3: book is that up to his time, everyone believed that

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Speaker 3: the Earth was the center of the universe.

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Speaker 4: That there was the Earth in the middle, and then

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Speaker 4: you had the moon and had Mercury and Venus around it,

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Speaker 4: and the Sun and all the other planets up to Saturn,

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Speaker 4: because that's all.

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Speaker 3: They could see. In the fifteen hundreds, everything revolved around us,

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Speaker 3: and so the Earth was the center of everything.

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Speaker 4: And of course we, according to religion, were created in

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Speaker 4: the image of God. So we were like, you know,

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Speaker 4: even though we were being kicked out of paradise, we

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Speaker 4: were sort of the God emissaries in this planet, right,

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Speaker 4: and so we had this value system where we were

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Speaker 4: the best, right, our planet was the center. When Copernicus

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Speaker 4: comes in, he basically changes this story and he says, sorry, folks,

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Speaker 4: it turns out that from what we can say from astronomy.

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Speaker 3: That is not the story. The story is that the

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Speaker 3: Sun really is the center of our solar system, and

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Speaker 3: the Earth is just a planet, just like Mercury and

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Speaker 3: Venus and Jupiter, which means that it just goes around

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Speaker 3: the Sun.

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Speaker 4: And at that point something very profound happens, because if

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Speaker 4: Earth is just a planet like any other planet, it

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Speaker 4: does not have the value that people believed it had.

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Speaker 4: So all of the philosophy and the cosmology, you know,

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Speaker 4: the way we thought about the universe at the time

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Speaker 4: was based on the Aristotelian So Aristotle, this Greek philosopher

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Speaker 4: about three hundred years BCE, built a whole system, a

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Speaker 4: whole worldview, you know, based on the fact that the

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Speaker 4: Earth is the center.

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Speaker 3: Everything falls to it.

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Speaker 4: Everything changes here by the heavens, the planets, and the

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Speaker 4: moon and the stars are all eternal and changing. So

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Speaker 4: the Earth was the place whereas everything was changing, the

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Speaker 4: skies were eternal.

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Speaker 3: There was some hierarchy. There was vertico, you know, from

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Speaker 3: the center of the earth changing all the way up

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Speaker 3: to the sky. And the Catholic Church bought that and said,

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Speaker 3: that is exactly how the world should be if God

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Speaker 3: created it. And God is not on earth anymore like

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Speaker 3: he was for our ancestors. God is way up there

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Speaker 3: in the skies. And it's a very abstract idea, you know.

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Speaker 4: The more the idea of the monotheistic God advanced in time,

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Speaker 4: the more remote God became. You know, in the Old

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Speaker 4: Testament it was around a lot, you know, it was

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Speaker 4: like burning bush with Moses and doing all sorts.

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Speaker 3: Of other things.

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Speaker 4: And then in the Christian times, you know, it became

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Speaker 4: sort of like this idea in the skies.

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Speaker 3: It sent a sun, you know. But and so the point.

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Speaker 4: Is that as religion left the planet, the planet became

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Speaker 4: an object, became not sacred anymore, a place where you

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Speaker 4: could exploit as you wanted. And that attached to the

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Speaker 4: notion from astronomy from Copernicas, Hey, the Earth is just

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Speaker 4: a planet. Meant that the combination of the science of

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Speaker 4: the time and this religion of the time meant that, yes,

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Speaker 4: you can do to the planet whatever we want. It's

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Speaker 4: just another world. It's not that important. If there is

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Speaker 4: life here, there will be life and other planets too.

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Speaker 3: So it's really cool.

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Speaker 4: Actually, if you look at the sixteen hundreds and seventeen hundreds,

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Speaker 4: all these guys, like very famous scientists were speculating about

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Speaker 4: life and another world, like, you know, like is it

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Speaker 4: going to be just like here or not? And if

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Speaker 4: it's just like humans, would they be sinners? And if

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Speaker 4: there is a sinner there, well you need another Jesus,

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Speaker 4: you know, And are there many Jesuses and.

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Speaker 3: All these different planets to save people. It was like

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Speaker 3: this wild conversation about this other life. And the end

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Speaker 3: result of this, right as the centuries advanced, is that

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Speaker 3: the Earth was objectified and became a place where you

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Speaker 3: could do as we wanted to. And so that's the

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Speaker 3: impact of the Copernican idea, which was not really his.

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Speaker 4: I mean, all he said is that, look, the Earth

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Speaker 4: is planet, but the whole everything else that followed, and

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Speaker 4: this has been the narrative of modern astronomy and cosmology,

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Speaker 4: which is what I do for a living, you know,

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Speaker 4: as a researcher, which is essentially this and you must

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Speaker 4: have heard this before. It's like, man, these are scientists

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Speaker 4: keep telling us that the more we know about the universe,

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Speaker 4: the less important we become. You know, if the Earth

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Speaker 4: is just a.

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Speaker 3: Planet, and then the Sun was the center of everything.

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Speaker 4: But then, sorry, folks, know, the Sun is just a

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Speaker 4: star and this star they are in this galaxy in

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Speaker 4: the Milky Way where we live, there are about two

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Speaker 4: hundred billion stars, you know, and the Sun, the kind

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Speaker 4: of star that the Sun belongs to, which is it's

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Speaker 4: called g star, is only about three percent.

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Speaker 3: Of all the stars.

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Speaker 4: And then the galaxy that we thought until one hundred

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Speaker 4: years ago, everybody thought the Milky Way was the only

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Speaker 4: galaxy in the universe. And then this American astronomer called

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Speaker 4: Hubbo said, nope, there are hundreds of billions of galaxies

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Speaker 4: out there, and these galaxies, furthermore, are moving away from

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Speaker 4: one another. The universe is expanding, and so like, we're

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Speaker 4: really becoming smaller and smaller and smaller, right, And then

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Speaker 4: to top it.

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Speaker 3: All, in the last forty years or so, we discovered.

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Speaker 4: That the matter that we are made of, the atoms

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Speaker 4: in your body are just about five percent.

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Speaker 3: Of the stuff that fills up the universe.

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Speaker 4: So all the stars and the planets and the gas

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Speaker 4: clouds and the people.

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Speaker 3: All this stuff is only about five percent of what's

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Speaker 3: out there. So now even the stuff we are made

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Speaker 3: of is important, right, and then to finish the whole thing, right,

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Speaker 3: to less nail on the coffin. In the last twenty

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Speaker 3: years or so, even our universe may not be the

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Speaker 3: only universe. That may be part of what's called a multiverse,

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Speaker 3: which is like a bubbling soup of.

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Speaker 4: Different universes, and each universe has a different set of

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Speaker 4: proper And so the narrative that I'm trying to build

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Speaker 4: here is that we went from a species that thought

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Speaker 4: of this world as their mother, as the sole responsible

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Speaker 4: for our existence, to a species where the development of

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Speaker 4: industrial technologies and this way of looking at the universe

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Speaker 4: as this very very big place, which is all true scientifically,

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Speaker 4: you know, took the value of our planet and objectified it,

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Speaker 4: and it created this mindset where we don't have to

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Speaker 4: worry about the world. That's the story, you know, that

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Speaker 4: comes into this book. And then the point is, okay,

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Speaker 4: now that story needs.

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Speaker 3: To change because if we keep telling this story to ourselves,

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Speaker 3: we are not going to be here telling the story

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Speaker 3: for much longer. So The question is how can we

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Speaker 3: build a different argument to explain who we are now?

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Speaker 2: Some might, you know, criticize this notion as something radical

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Speaker 2: that could never captivate the mainstream, but you rightfully point

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Speaker 2: out that the major shifts in worldview and cultural narrative

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Speaker 2: occur throughout human history. So it's it's not an unreasonable hope.

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Speaker 3: Right, I hope not. You know.

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Speaker 4: For example, the shift to Copernicanism, the shift from an

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Speaker 4: Earth centered cosmos to a Sun centered cosmos was like

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Speaker 4: profoundly changing, right. I mean, there was the whole issue

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Speaker 4: with Galileo and the Inquisition because he was, you know,

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Speaker 4: about one hundred years not quiet eighty years after Copernicus.

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Speaker 4: He was saying, folks, Copernicus is right, you know, and

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Speaker 4: if you keep insisting that the Earth is the center,

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Speaker 4: you're going to embarrass yourselves, you know. And only in

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Speaker 4: the nineteen eighties the Church forgave Galileo.

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Speaker 3: You know.

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Speaker 4: And so changes of mindset they do happen, right when

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Speaker 4: there's enough evidence for them to happen, either moved by

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Speaker 4: fear or moved by scientific evidence. You don't have to believe,

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Speaker 4: because science is exactly what tells you you don't need

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Speaker 4: to believe in this. You need to look at the data,

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Speaker 4: interpret it properly, and understand what's going on. Right, So

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Speaker 4: where does the fun new story comes in?

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Speaker 2: Right?

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Speaker 4: The story that comes in is that you can rescue

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Speaker 4: this notion of belonging to the natural world that ancient

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Speaker 4: cultures have had for a long time and couch it

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Speaker 4: in a scientific narrative. And that's what I tried to

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Speaker 4: do in this book.

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Speaker 3: Right, And how do you do that? Well? First of all,

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Speaker 3: there is the story that everybody knows already that we

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Speaker 3: are made of star dost right, you know. So you have.

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Speaker 4: Johnny Mitchell and you have Carl Sagan, all of us

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Speaker 4: saying these things, and people have to internalize that this

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Speaker 4: is really true.

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Speaker 3: Right.

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Speaker 4: And I love to talk about this because it is

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Speaker 4: so beautiful. You know, it's kind of at the same

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Speaker 4: time lyrical and scientifically accurate.

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Speaker 3: That you know, the iron in.

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Speaker 4: Your blood, and the calcium in your bones, and the

360
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Speaker 4: carbon in your cells, all of these chemical elements, they

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Speaker 4: all came from stars that blew up over five billion

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Speaker 4: years ago. So if you stop to think about this,

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Speaker 4: for instance, so what you know, so because the stars

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Speaker 4: are what are the great alchemists. So what a star

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Speaker 4: does essentially is that it grabs hydrogen. A star is

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Speaker 4: a giant ball of flaming hydrogen. Hydrogen, you guys don't remember,

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Speaker 4: is the simplest chemical element that exists in nature. It

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Speaker 4: has one proton and one electron in the one proton

369
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Speaker 4: in the nucleus and one electron moving about it. So

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Speaker 4: that is the simplest thing that exists chemically speaking. And

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Speaker 4: what a star does it grabs hydrogen, pushes it together,

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Speaker 4: compresses it really hard, and this compression transforms hydrogen in

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Speaker 4: all the other chemical elements that exists.

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Speaker 3: That's called nuclear fusion.

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Speaker 4: So a star is essentially a giant nu clear fusion

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00:21:00,800 --> 00:21:06,439
Speaker 4: device that transforms hydrogen into helium, carbon, oxygen all the

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Speaker 4: way to iron. And then when it gets to iron,

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00:21:10,000 --> 00:21:13,359
Speaker 4: big stars tend to explode in what we call super

379
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Speaker 4: and over explosions, and when that happens, the heavy elements

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Speaker 4: all the way to uranium.

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Speaker 3: Are forged in different ways.

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Speaker 4: So and then when the stars explode, they spell all

383
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Speaker 4: that stuff out into interstellar space, and all these gas

384
00:21:29,480 --> 00:21:33,840
Speaker 4: clouds filled with all these chemical elements travel around hit

385
00:21:34,000 --> 00:21:37,840
Speaker 4: all the floating clouds of hydrogen sprinkle them with the

386
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Speaker 4: heavy chemical elements. And when this star is born and

387
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Speaker 4: the planets are born, they carry with them all the

388
00:21:45,359 --> 00:21:49,600
Speaker 4: chemistry that will become part of life. So that's who

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00:21:49,640 --> 00:21:52,639
Speaker 4: we are, you know. So the star do story is

390
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Speaker 4: really true. So that's connecting us to the history of

391
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Speaker 4: the universe as a whole, right, So we connect ourselves

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Speaker 4: to billions and billions of years of cosmic history.

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Speaker 3: So that's one point.

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Speaker 4: There's this Buddhist monk that I like a lot called

395
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Speaker 4: ticknot Hunt, who talked about this thing called interveing.

396
00:22:13,720 --> 00:22:16,199
Speaker 3: The notion of intervening is really cool, he says. You know,

397
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Speaker 3: pick up a book and read a poem, and you

398
00:22:19,440 --> 00:22:23,040
Speaker 3: look at that page in that book and you say, wow,

399
00:22:23,119 --> 00:22:26,040
Speaker 3: this page is made of paper. So that means that

400
00:22:26,200 --> 00:22:28,920
Speaker 3: as I'm reading this book and I'm looking at this

401
00:22:29,000 --> 00:22:33,320
Speaker 3: page of paper, there is a cloud that made this

402
00:22:33,520 --> 00:22:37,000
Speaker 3: paper possible, you know, because this paper is made of wood.

403
00:22:37,520 --> 00:22:38,320
Speaker 3: Wood is tree.

404
00:22:38,720 --> 00:22:43,159
Speaker 4: Tree needs water. Water comes from rain, rain comes some clouds,

405
00:22:43,560 --> 00:22:46,680
Speaker 4: and the planet made that happen. But it only made

406
00:22:46,680 --> 00:22:49,480
Speaker 4: that happen because there is a sun giving it energy

407
00:22:49,560 --> 00:22:52,199
Speaker 4: to make it happen and to drive its climate. And

408
00:22:52,240 --> 00:22:55,840
Speaker 4: so you're already connected to the Sun, so when you're

409
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Speaker 4: reading a page of a book, you're really already.

410
00:22:58,720 --> 00:22:59,760
Speaker 3: Connected to this.

411
00:23:00,240 --> 00:23:02,520
Speaker 4: But the Son, of course, is a star that belongs

412
00:23:02,560 --> 00:23:05,399
Speaker 4: to a galaxy that belongs to the universe. So in

413
00:23:05,440 --> 00:23:08,359
Speaker 4: this page of paper that you're reading, you have the

414
00:23:08,400 --> 00:23:11,400
Speaker 4: whole history of the universe, and that's the notion of intervening.

415
00:23:11,880 --> 00:23:14,240
Speaker 3: So this vision that this guy had.

416
00:23:14,600 --> 00:23:18,800
Speaker 4: It really is completely supported by scientific research.

417
00:23:19,119 --> 00:23:23,200
Speaker 3: So that's all good. Now comes the second part.

418
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Speaker 4: That's where it becomes a little provocative from my end,

419
00:23:26,200 --> 00:23:30,440
Speaker 4: which is this, In the last fifteen or twenty years,

420
00:23:30,760 --> 00:23:36,080
Speaker 4: this new branch of astronomy called astrobiology came out, and

421
00:23:36,080 --> 00:23:40,440
Speaker 4: what is astrobiology. Astrobiology is essentially the study of life

422
00:23:40,440 --> 00:23:43,840
Speaker 4: in the universe. Right, So now it's kind of awesome.

423
00:23:44,119 --> 00:23:47,560
Speaker 4: You can actually get grants from NASA and National Science

424
00:23:47,560 --> 00:23:51,320
Speaker 4: Foundation to study aliens or the possibility of alien life

425
00:23:51,359 --> 00:23:53,600
Speaker 4: in the universe. You know, twenty years ago that was

426
00:23:53,800 --> 00:23:57,399
Speaker 4: not possible at all. And what we have been doing

427
00:23:57,480 --> 00:24:00,040
Speaker 4: with the Hubble Space Telescope and now the James we

428
00:24:00,080 --> 00:24:04,400
Speaker 4: have space Telescope, which is this spectacular machine that allows

429
00:24:04,520 --> 00:24:10,879
Speaker 4: us to look at planets going around other stars, to

430
00:24:11,040 --> 00:24:14,760
Speaker 4: search for chemical elements, look at these chemical elements in

431
00:24:14,880 --> 00:24:19,000
Speaker 4: their atmospheres to see if the atmosphere stell is about

432
00:24:19,080 --> 00:24:22,560
Speaker 4: life in that world or not. So, to make this

433
00:24:22,640 --> 00:24:25,800
Speaker 4: a little more concrete, if a native astronomer looked at

434
00:24:25,800 --> 00:24:28,800
Speaker 4: Earth from far away, from like ten light years away,

435
00:24:29,640 --> 00:24:32,040
Speaker 4: you would say, oh, look at that blue planet over there.

436
00:24:32,400 --> 00:24:37,040
Speaker 4: It has a very thick atmosphere. It has water, it

437
00:24:37,080 --> 00:24:42,359
Speaker 4: has carbon dioxide, it has methane, it has ozone. That

438
00:24:42,480 --> 00:24:46,720
Speaker 4: planet is alive just because of the combinations of possible

439
00:24:46,800 --> 00:24:52,800
Speaker 4: chemicals in their atmosphere. So to find life elsewhere, you

440
00:24:52,840 --> 00:24:55,920
Speaker 4: don't really need to take a spaceship and go interstellar,

441
00:24:56,040 --> 00:24:56,960
Speaker 4: which would.

442
00:24:56,720 --> 00:24:59,600
Speaker 3: Be awesome, but it's not possible yet. But you can

443
00:24:59,680 --> 00:25:03,080
Speaker 3: look those planets thirty their atmospherees S thirty the chemical

444
00:25:03,119 --> 00:25:07,240
Speaker 3: composition of the atmosphere, and say, yep, it really indicates

445
00:25:07,280 --> 00:25:09,440
Speaker 3: the presence of biological activity there.

446
00:25:09,920 --> 00:25:13,879
Speaker 4: So we're doing that now, and we have found so

447
00:25:14,119 --> 00:25:19,560
Speaker 4: far over five thousand, five hundred exoplanets we call them,

448
00:25:19,680 --> 00:25:25,200
Speaker 4: that is, planets rotating orbiting around other stars far away,

449
00:25:25,320 --> 00:25:27,879
Speaker 4: and we have been able to study the atmospheres of

450
00:25:27,920 --> 00:25:30,440
Speaker 4: a small amount of them. But we have also found

451
00:25:30,560 --> 00:25:32,520
Speaker 4: what kind of planet is that? Is it like an

452
00:25:32,560 --> 00:25:36,640
Speaker 4: Earth like rocky solid guy, or is it more like Jupiter,

453
00:25:36,760 --> 00:25:40,919
Speaker 4: which is this big, giant, buffy ball of gas. And

454
00:25:40,960 --> 00:25:44,440
Speaker 4: what we have found out is that the vast majority

455
00:25:44,440 --> 00:25:48,639
Speaker 4: of worlds I have nothing to do with Earth, a

456
00:25:48,800 --> 00:25:54,560
Speaker 4: much more like Jupiter on neptunes of big gas planets.

457
00:25:54,600 --> 00:25:58,720
Speaker 4: Only about three percent of the planets that we have

458
00:25:58,840 --> 00:26:03,480
Speaker 4: found so far have a similar look to Earth. But

459
00:26:03,640 --> 00:26:07,240
Speaker 4: of those, very few of them orbit a star like

460
00:26:07,320 --> 00:26:10,280
Speaker 4: the Sun. Some of them orbit stars which are much colder.

461
00:26:11,040 --> 00:26:14,120
Speaker 4: Most of them, in fact, orbit stars which are much colder.

462
00:26:14,680 --> 00:26:18,680
Speaker 4: And so as you start looking at this in more detail,

463
00:26:18,800 --> 00:26:23,080
Speaker 4: you realize that even from an astronomical perspective, even though

464
00:26:23,119 --> 00:26:26,400
Speaker 4: there are trillions, and I'm not joking, trillion is one,

465
00:26:26,440 --> 00:26:30,240
Speaker 4: trillion is a one with twelve zeros, there are trillions

466
00:26:30,240 --> 00:26:35,719
Speaker 4: of planets in our galaxy alone, okay, but very few

467
00:26:36,160 --> 00:26:38,240
Speaker 4: are going to be similar to this planet.

468
00:26:38,840 --> 00:26:41,919
Speaker 3: So what we're beginning to learn is that despite you

469
00:26:42,000 --> 00:26:45,399
Speaker 3: have this gigantic diversity of worlds out there which is

470
00:26:45,480 --> 00:26:50,120
Speaker 3: really spectacular, and they are all magically amazing, right, I mean,

471
00:26:50,240 --> 00:26:53,120
Speaker 3: you have moons in our Solar system, not just the planets.

472
00:26:53,160 --> 00:26:56,840
Speaker 3: You have the moons too, like Enceladus and Europa, which

473
00:26:56,880 --> 00:27:01,280
Speaker 3: is this moon of Jupiter that has a crust, and

474
00:27:01,359 --> 00:27:05,439
Speaker 3: the underneath the ice crust there's a nocean of salt

475
00:27:05,480 --> 00:27:09,719
Speaker 3: water that carries four times more water than all the

476
00:27:09,720 --> 00:27:12,760
Speaker 3: oceans of our planet together. So like damn.

477
00:27:12,840 --> 00:27:16,240
Speaker 4: You know, if there is that, then maybe hey, salt water, right,

478
00:27:16,280 --> 00:27:18,880
Speaker 4: that may be life there, So there'll be there are

479
00:27:18,920 --> 00:27:22,920
Speaker 4: planned missions that will go there, hopefully at some point

480
00:27:23,840 --> 00:27:26,879
Speaker 4: land drill a hole, try to get some of the

481
00:27:27,040 --> 00:27:29,880
Speaker 4: water to analyze if there are any little create creatures

482
00:27:29,920 --> 00:27:33,120
Speaker 4: out there. But even if there are, they're not going

483
00:27:33,160 --> 00:27:35,920
Speaker 4: to be as complex as life here. See, the thing

484
00:27:35,960 --> 00:27:38,520
Speaker 4: about Earth is not that it's just a living planet

485
00:27:39,160 --> 00:27:41,760
Speaker 4: as a whole, but it's a living planet with very

486
00:27:41,760 --> 00:27:47,480
Speaker 4: complex life, and that makes all the difference. So Avatar,

487
00:27:47,920 --> 00:27:51,159
Speaker 4: you know, that's that that movie was made for a

488
00:27:51,280 --> 00:27:54,240
Speaker 4: very good reason, you know, which is there will be

489
00:27:54,359 --> 00:27:57,600
Speaker 4: very few planets like was similar to there will let

490
00:27:57,600 --> 00:28:00,479
Speaker 4: me be the more more bombastic here I do this.

491
00:28:00,680 --> 00:28:02,879
Speaker 3: There will never be another Earth in the whole of

492
00:28:02,920 --> 00:28:03,520
Speaker 3: the universe.

493
00:28:03,920 --> 00:28:09,160
Speaker 4: You can have planets similar to Earth maybe, and even

494
00:28:09,200 --> 00:28:12,760
Speaker 4: if they have life, life on those planets, even if

495
00:28:12,760 --> 00:28:16,320
Speaker 4: it's kind of like our life, like carbon based water bays,

496
00:28:17,119 --> 00:28:21,160
Speaker 4: that life is going to be completely different from life here,

497
00:28:21,840 --> 00:28:24,800
Speaker 4: which means which I think is really cool, and it's

498
00:28:24,840 --> 00:28:27,959
Speaker 4: part of the fundamental soul of the book that we

499
00:28:28,240 --> 00:28:32,320
Speaker 4: are the only humans in the universe. There will be

500
00:28:32,600 --> 00:28:37,040
Speaker 4: no other humans. There could be other humanoid like things.

501
00:28:36,760 --> 00:28:39,080
Speaker 3: With like a left right symmetry like you have, you know,

502
00:28:39,240 --> 00:28:42,760
Speaker 3: left right eye and stuff, but there will be no

503
00:28:42,920 --> 00:28:46,680
Speaker 3: other human species in the whole of the universe. And

504
00:28:46,800 --> 00:28:51,560
Speaker 3: that puts us back in the center of the universe,

505
00:28:51,600 --> 00:28:55,640
Speaker 3: but in a completely different way from before Copernicus, because

506
00:28:55,720 --> 00:29:01,800
Speaker 3: now we become the species that is self aware and

507
00:29:01,960 --> 00:29:03,920
Speaker 3: is able to tell its own story.

508
00:29:04,800 --> 00:29:08,000
Speaker 4: And the biggest story that we tell is the story

509
00:29:08,000 --> 00:29:10,720
Speaker 4: of how we belong to the universe as a whole.

510
00:29:11,240 --> 00:29:14,600
Speaker 4: So we are in a sense, telling the story of

511
00:29:14,640 --> 00:29:18,160
Speaker 4: the universe. We are the voice and the mind of

512
00:29:18,200 --> 00:29:28,560
Speaker 4: the universe telling its own story.

513
00:29:29,960 --> 00:29:33,120
Speaker 2: And so is this this basic idea, this this idea

514
00:29:33,120 --> 00:29:35,560
Speaker 2: of the Earth is this precious gem and it being

515
00:29:35,880 --> 00:29:39,640
Speaker 2: vitally connected with us. This gets into this idea of

516
00:29:39,720 --> 00:29:42,240
Speaker 2: the secular sacredness of the planet.

517
00:29:42,400 --> 00:29:46,800
Speaker 4: Correct exactly so in this so I propose this thing

518
00:29:46,840 --> 00:29:50,200
Speaker 4: called biocentrism, which is not a word I invented. Other

519
00:29:50,240 --> 00:29:52,080
Speaker 4: people have used it, but I used it in a

520
00:29:52,160 --> 00:29:55,800
Speaker 4: somewhat different context. I think the context that I use

521
00:29:55,960 --> 00:29:58,080
Speaker 4: is similar to the people.

522
00:29:57,840 --> 00:30:01,240
Speaker 3: That we're doing this logical theology.

523
00:30:01,360 --> 00:30:04,920
Speaker 4: I guess in the seventies and eighties, you know, they said,

524
00:30:05,040 --> 00:30:08,360
Speaker 4: you know, religion abandoned the world, then we need to

525
00:30:08,360 --> 00:30:11,400
Speaker 4: go back to that. And what I'm saying is that, yes,

526
00:30:11,560 --> 00:30:15,680
Speaker 4: religion abandoned the world, so did science, because you know,

527
00:30:15,840 --> 00:30:18,920
Speaker 4: science also sort of like took the world as a

528
00:30:18,960 --> 00:30:22,800
Speaker 4: big laboratory without really respecting it for what it is.

529
00:30:23,400 --> 00:30:26,400
Speaker 4: And now we have this new science coming out and

530
00:30:26,440 --> 00:30:29,920
Speaker 4: we can bring this notion of what I would call

531
00:30:29,960 --> 00:30:34,480
Speaker 4: a secular spirituality, the idea that you can relate to

532
00:30:34,520 --> 00:30:36,400
Speaker 4: the world. It doesn't matter if you believe in God

533
00:30:36,480 --> 00:30:39,200
Speaker 4: or not. This has nothing to do directly with God.

534
00:30:39,280 --> 00:30:42,160
Speaker 4: If you do, that's great, bring God back to the planet.

535
00:30:42,640 --> 00:30:46,880
Speaker 4: But if you don't, you can relate to the awesomeness

536
00:30:46,920 --> 00:30:51,320
Speaker 4: of being part of this deep connection to the history

537
00:30:51,360 --> 00:30:55,520
Speaker 4: of the universe in this planet that allows us to

538
00:30:55,640 --> 00:30:57,320
Speaker 4: be able to tell this story.

539
00:30:57,440 --> 00:30:59,440
Speaker 3: Right. It's not just that we exist here.

540
00:30:59,720 --> 00:31:03,640
Speaker 4: But this planet has had even though it has had

541
00:31:03,760 --> 00:31:08,600
Speaker 4: wild climate changes, you know, there was this planet has

542
00:31:08,640 --> 00:31:12,520
Speaker 4: been an ice ball completely. It has been a tropical forest.

543
00:31:12,840 --> 00:31:15,160
Speaker 4: You know, it has gone through all these different phases

544
00:31:15,200 --> 00:31:19,240
Speaker 4: in these four billion years of existence, but it always

545
00:31:19,520 --> 00:31:24,280
Speaker 4: allowed a certain amount of stability in the climate for

546
00:31:24,440 --> 00:31:27,880
Speaker 4: life to persist. Right, And life has been around here.

547
00:31:28,440 --> 00:31:31,000
Speaker 4: So I told you that the planet's fare and a

548
00:31:31,040 --> 00:31:33,960
Speaker 4: half billion years old. Life has been around for three

549
00:31:33,960 --> 00:31:37,680
Speaker 4: and a half billion years in here, and it became

550
00:31:37,720 --> 00:31:41,560
Speaker 4: incredibly complex. And once you start to look at nature

551
00:31:41,760 --> 00:31:45,000
Speaker 4: with these eyes, you know, with the eyes of awesomeness, like,

552
00:31:45,720 --> 00:31:49,479
Speaker 4: be grateful for what you have, because this is a jam.

553
00:31:49,600 --> 00:31:52,320
Speaker 3: Look at look what happens to us when we try

554
00:31:52,360 --> 00:31:55,720
Speaker 3: to get out of the atmosphere. Right, the universe is

555
00:31:55,800 --> 00:32:02,320
Speaker 3: profoundly hostile to life. When I read things like life physubiquitous.

556
00:32:01,200 --> 00:32:03,720
Speaker 4: In the universe, that the universe is filled with life,

557
00:32:03,720 --> 00:32:07,040
Speaker 4: and like, I find that almost offensive because first of all,

558
00:32:07,440 --> 00:32:12,600
Speaker 4: we have zero evidence of that. Okay, so there's zero

559
00:32:12,720 --> 00:32:16,800
Speaker 4: evidence that we have been certainly visited by aliens. Right,

560
00:32:16,840 --> 00:32:20,520
Speaker 4: there's another whole conversation. And I have lots of friends

561
00:32:20,520 --> 00:32:25,160
Speaker 4: writing books about that, but more than that, we have

562
00:32:25,280 --> 00:32:27,800
Speaker 4: zero evidence that there is life in other places, which

563
00:32:27,840 --> 00:32:31,080
Speaker 4: doesn't mean there isn't. See, this is where you have

564
00:32:31,120 --> 00:32:34,840
Speaker 4: to be very careful with scientific statements. We cannot prove

565
00:32:35,760 --> 00:32:38,840
Speaker 4: that there is no life in an other world. That's impossible.

566
00:32:38,880 --> 00:32:41,600
Speaker 4: I'll tell you why. It's because we simply cannot go

567
00:32:41,640 --> 00:32:44,840
Speaker 4: and visit every other world in the universe to find

568
00:32:44,840 --> 00:32:47,600
Speaker 4: out if there is life there or not. So we

569
00:32:47,680 --> 00:32:51,440
Speaker 4: may say life is rare, or life in our bubble

570
00:32:51,800 --> 00:32:55,800
Speaker 4: like cosmic bubble like within a big distance from our

571
00:32:55,840 --> 00:32:58,880
Speaker 4: planet here is rare, but we cannot.

572
00:32:58,560 --> 00:32:59,120
Speaker 3: Rule it out.

573
00:33:00,080 --> 00:33:02,400
Speaker 4: But what we can rule it out, as I said before,

574
00:33:02,520 --> 00:33:05,280
Speaker 4: is that definitely there will be no other.

575
00:33:05,160 --> 00:33:08,000
Speaker 3: Human species in the universe, and even.

576
00:33:07,800 --> 00:33:10,840
Speaker 4: If there would be, they'll be so far away and

577
00:33:10,880 --> 00:33:13,320
Speaker 4: so remote that for all.

578
00:33:13,160 --> 00:33:17,280
Speaker 3: Purposes, all practical purposes, we really are alone telling our

579
00:33:17,320 --> 00:33:19,720
Speaker 3: own story of what's going on. Now.

580
00:33:19,840 --> 00:33:21,800
Speaker 2: You talk about this a little bit in the book.

581
00:33:22,360 --> 00:33:25,960
Speaker 2: I was wondering if you might feel this question. Do

582
00:33:25,640 --> 00:33:30,720
Speaker 2: you believe that various sci fi, futurists and transhumanist ideas

583
00:33:30,760 --> 00:33:34,680
Speaker 2: such as the digitization of consciousness and even things like

584
00:33:34,800 --> 00:33:38,560
Speaker 2: interplanetary colonization no matter how far fetch some of the

585
00:33:38,640 --> 00:33:42,360
Speaker 2: concepts may be, or you know, just outside of immediate grasp.

586
00:33:42,960 --> 00:33:45,600
Speaker 2: Have they played a negative role in moving sort of

587
00:33:45,600 --> 00:33:48,920
Speaker 2: the public imagination away from more life centric and earth

588
00:33:48,960 --> 00:33:49,959
Speaker 2: centric worldviews.

589
00:33:50,240 --> 00:33:53,960
Speaker 4: I think absolutely yes, because you know, just it's a

590
00:33:54,000 --> 00:33:56,840
Speaker 4: matter of focus, right, you say, look, we are going

591
00:33:56,920 --> 00:33:59,840
Speaker 4: to mess this planet up, and we're just going to

592
00:33:59,840 --> 00:34:03,000
Speaker 4: move somewhere else, so it doesn't matter, you know, let's

593
00:34:03,080 --> 00:34:06,160
Speaker 4: just keep doing it. Let's just keeping it up, and

594
00:34:06,200 --> 00:34:10,320
Speaker 4: we're just basically eating its entrails, right, that's what fossil fuels,

595
00:34:10,320 --> 00:34:12,960
Speaker 4: they come from underground, right, So we're sort of feeding

596
00:34:13,320 --> 00:34:16,600
Speaker 4: from the entrails of the planet to sustain this big

597
00:34:16,680 --> 00:34:20,719
Speaker 4: civilization on the surface. And hey, if there are other

598
00:34:20,760 --> 00:34:23,080
Speaker 4: worlds out there for us to colonize, just like we

599
00:34:23,160 --> 00:34:30,160
Speaker 4: did here. So this whole notion of colonizing other planets

600
00:34:30,360 --> 00:34:32,680
Speaker 4: is a repetition of what we have.

601
00:34:32,719 --> 00:34:35,120
Speaker 3: Done to this planet if you think about this, right,

602
00:34:35,160 --> 00:34:36,279
Speaker 3: I mean, what happened.

603
00:34:36,000 --> 00:34:40,960
Speaker 4: Here is that there were native populations around the planet.

604
00:34:41,440 --> 00:34:45,839
Speaker 4: But then you had the Europeans that had the technology

605
00:34:45,920 --> 00:34:51,520
Speaker 4: to explore and go across vast distances and in the oceans,

606
00:34:51,560 --> 00:34:54,040
Speaker 4: and that's what they did, and they moved on to

607
00:34:54,160 --> 00:34:57,759
Speaker 4: these other places. And what did they do? They plundered, right,

608
00:34:57,800 --> 00:35:00,840
Speaker 4: I mean I grew up in Brazil. Brazil was colony

609
00:35:00,880 --> 00:35:03,400
Speaker 4: of Portugal that in the fifteen hundreds was the most

610
00:35:03,440 --> 00:35:07,600
Speaker 4: powerful country or you know, kingdom in that case in

611
00:35:07,640 --> 00:35:10,520
Speaker 4: the world. And they you know, you look at all

612
00:35:10,560 --> 00:35:13,879
Speaker 4: the gold in the churches in Europe and cathedrals, where

613
00:35:13,880 --> 00:35:14,680
Speaker 4: did that come from?

614
00:35:14,719 --> 00:35:17,000
Speaker 3: Well a lot of it came from South America? Right,

615
00:35:17,440 --> 00:35:20,680
Speaker 3: And so are we going to just repeat that model

616
00:35:21,000 --> 00:35:23,959
Speaker 3: as we move on? So let's go to the moon,

617
00:35:24,040 --> 00:35:26,600
Speaker 3: and let's go mind the moon, and then we make

618
00:35:26,600 --> 00:35:28,680
Speaker 3: a base on the Moon, and then we colonize, so

619
00:35:29,040 --> 00:35:32,239
Speaker 3: we tear a four Mars, which basically means we make

620
00:35:32,360 --> 00:35:35,640
Speaker 3: Mars into our earth thing, which is completely ridiculous. It

621
00:35:36,280 --> 00:35:38,280
Speaker 3: just doesn't work and it will not work.

622
00:35:38,680 --> 00:35:43,120
Speaker 4: You can make an igloo like life, a biosphere kind

623
00:35:43,160 --> 00:35:48,319
Speaker 4: of thing in another world and recreate the earth conditions

624
00:35:48,360 --> 00:35:51,640
Speaker 4: in that world locally, but at.

625
00:35:51,480 --> 00:35:55,320
Speaker 5: A global level that is so far away, as you said,

626
00:35:55,480 --> 00:35:59,000
Speaker 5: so far Thatch, that it is at this point, given

627
00:35:59,040 --> 00:36:02,719
Speaker 5: the problems we have in this planet right now, we

628
00:36:02,760 --> 00:36:04,920
Speaker 5: should be focusing everything.

629
00:36:04,520 --> 00:36:07,680
Speaker 3: That we've got here and not and can I go

630
00:36:07,719 --> 00:36:11,839
Speaker 3: to Mars and you know, colonize Mars or whatever. So

631
00:36:12,000 --> 00:36:14,480
Speaker 3: that's the planetary aspect of things.

632
00:36:14,520 --> 00:36:19,040
Speaker 4: And then the other one the transhumanist idea that we

633
00:36:19,120 --> 00:36:22,000
Speaker 4: can and I write a lot about that, not in

634
00:36:22,040 --> 00:36:25,520
Speaker 4: this book so much, but in other places, that we.

635
00:36:25,520 --> 00:36:26,760
Speaker 3: Can't actually.

636
00:36:27,920 --> 00:36:31,280
Speaker 4: Create some sort of scientific based immortality.

637
00:36:31,920 --> 00:36:33,160
Speaker 3: Right, is a.

638
00:36:33,160 --> 00:36:37,480
Speaker 4: Very very old idea, right, I mean, at least you

639
00:36:37,600 --> 00:36:41,800
Speaker 4: can go back to Frankenstein. So you know eighteen nineteen

640
00:36:42,640 --> 00:36:47,160
Speaker 4: where Mary Shelley she used the cutting edge science of

641
00:36:47,200 --> 00:36:52,839
Speaker 4: her time, which was look, electricity can make muscles twitch. Right,

642
00:36:53,160 --> 00:36:57,080
Speaker 4: that was like Galvani, you know, Volta had discovered this

643
00:36:57,120 --> 00:37:01,040
Speaker 4: stuff in Italy and people are like amaze by this, right,

644
00:37:01,080 --> 00:37:05,279
Speaker 4: They're like wow. So basically the secret of motion is

645
00:37:05,960 --> 00:37:09,560
Speaker 4: electricity growing through your nerves and your muscles. So that

646
00:37:09,680 --> 00:37:15,319
Speaker 4: means that if you could recreate a dead person and

647
00:37:15,520 --> 00:37:19,760
Speaker 4: pass electricity to that person, science would conquer death.

648
00:37:20,520 --> 00:37:20,719
Speaker 3: Right.

649
00:37:21,120 --> 00:37:27,200
Speaker 4: Transhumanism is exactly the same notion, but now using our cutting.

650
00:37:26,960 --> 00:37:29,359
Speaker 3: Edge technology, which is digital technology.

651
00:37:29,480 --> 00:37:34,640
Speaker 4: So the sense the essence being if we could capture

652
00:37:35,560 --> 00:37:39,040
Speaker 4: the essence of who you are, right, so essentially look

653
00:37:39,080 --> 00:37:45,360
Speaker 4: into your brain and somehow can download your memories and

654
00:37:45,480 --> 00:37:49,359
Speaker 4: the circuitry in your brain, and you can recreate all

655
00:37:49,400 --> 00:37:52,120
Speaker 4: of that complexity in a it's.

656
00:37:51,920 --> 00:37:55,440
Speaker 3: Called the connectome. You know, how all the synapses of

657
00:37:55,480 --> 00:37:58,279
Speaker 3: your neurons connect to one another. It's like a map, right,

658
00:37:58,560 --> 00:38:01,239
Speaker 3: so this would be the map to yourself, right, and

659
00:38:01,360 --> 00:38:02,120
Speaker 3: each one of us.

660
00:38:02,200 --> 00:38:06,000
Speaker 4: Even though we have brains which are very similar, they're

661
00:38:06,000 --> 00:38:09,160
Speaker 4: also very different because I'm not Rob, and Rob it's

662
00:38:09,200 --> 00:38:13,080
Speaker 4: not me. Even though we share so much of what

663
00:38:13,200 --> 00:38:15,680
Speaker 4: we are, right, there is a difference there. So the

664
00:38:15,719 --> 00:38:19,360
Speaker 4: idea is if you could capture the assence and create

665
00:38:19,400 --> 00:38:23,120
Speaker 4: a giant simulation, then that simulation will be you.

666
00:38:24,320 --> 00:38:28,640
Speaker 3: Or an approximation of you. And I find that very

667
00:38:28,640 --> 00:38:33,440
Speaker 3: disturbing and also very kind of like, uh, far fetched

668
00:38:33,560 --> 00:38:37,000
Speaker 3: is not even a word for this, because we have

669
00:38:37,200 --> 00:38:41,640
Speaker 3: zero idea of what it means to capture ourselves, you know,

670
00:38:41,719 --> 00:38:45,440
Speaker 3: the essence of who we are from a digital perspective

671
00:38:45,640 --> 00:38:48,680
Speaker 3: or any kind of perspective, because we don't know what

672
00:38:48,880 --> 00:38:53,400
Speaker 3: consciousness is of how it works. But as you said,

673
00:38:53,440 --> 00:38:55,600
Speaker 3: the way you phrase the question, which is very clever,

674
00:38:55,680 --> 00:38:57,799
Speaker 3: it is like those things, even though they are very

675
00:38:57,880 --> 00:39:02,160
Speaker 3: far fetched, can they be taking us away from our task?

676
00:39:02,280 --> 00:39:06,440
Speaker 3: Right now, which is to really celebrate the life that we.

677
00:39:06,520 --> 00:39:10,200
Speaker 4: Have and the planet that gives us the possibility of

678
00:39:10,280 --> 00:39:14,680
Speaker 4: having this life, as opposed to spending so much energy

679
00:39:14,800 --> 00:39:18,960
Speaker 4: and fantasy and money and resources in dreaming up a

680
00:39:19,000 --> 00:39:21,120
Speaker 4: future which is not going to help us in the

681
00:39:21,160 --> 00:39:23,799
Speaker 4: next few decades, which is when we really need the help.

682
00:39:24,120 --> 00:39:26,960
Speaker 3: And the answer is absolutely that's why we should be focusing.

683
00:39:27,000 --> 00:39:30,760
Speaker 3: And the hope of this book is to help people

684
00:39:31,120 --> 00:39:35,320
Speaker 3: maybe refocus a little bit on the beauty and the

685
00:39:35,560 --> 00:39:39,040
Speaker 3: tremendous miracle in a sense that life in this planet

686
00:39:39,120 --> 00:39:40,120
Speaker 3: really is and.

687
00:39:40,440 --> 00:39:42,799
Speaker 4: What a place that we have, that we should be

688
00:39:42,880 --> 00:39:45,280
Speaker 4: thinking about it very differently than we are.

689
00:39:55,280 --> 00:39:57,319
Speaker 2: Now. Part of the hopefulness of the book is that

690
00:39:57,480 --> 00:40:01,040
Speaker 2: it's not just big ideas. You also discuss concrete steps

691
00:40:01,080 --> 00:40:05,360
Speaker 2: that individuals and society can take. So what can we do,

692
00:40:05,400 --> 00:40:07,359
Speaker 2: what can link listeners to the show do to help

693
00:40:07,400 --> 00:40:11,359
Speaker 2: adopt these principles and drive positive change as individuals?

694
00:40:11,920 --> 00:40:15,080
Speaker 4: Right So, so the subtitle of the book is a

695
00:40:15,160 --> 00:40:19,160
Speaker 4: Manifesto for Humanity's future. Right So, manifest is kind of

696
00:40:19,200 --> 00:40:21,600
Speaker 4: like a little bit of a pretentious thing to say.

697
00:40:21,640 --> 00:40:24,359
Speaker 3: There are lots of people writing manifesto about this or that.

698
00:40:24,440 --> 00:40:26,640
Speaker 4: But so what I did is I went back to

699
00:40:26,719 --> 00:40:28,799
Speaker 4: something I read but I was a teenager, which was

700
00:40:28,800 --> 00:40:32,120
Speaker 4: a communist manifesto about Marx and angels, you know, said

701
00:40:32,160 --> 00:40:34,480
Speaker 4: to say, Okay, what the heck is a manifester and

702
00:40:34,520 --> 00:40:35,479
Speaker 4: how do you write one?

703
00:40:35,800 --> 00:40:39,480
Speaker 3: Right? And so basically the manifesto has two parts.

704
00:40:39,560 --> 00:40:42,600
Speaker 4: Right, he has this is the argument of why the

705
00:40:42,640 --> 00:40:45,920
Speaker 4: world needs to change, Right, So you bring that argument

706
00:40:46,000 --> 00:40:48,840
Speaker 4: forward and you say, look, in their case was about

707
00:40:49,000 --> 00:40:52,239
Speaker 4: capitalism and the bourgeoisie and we need to you know,

708
00:40:52,360 --> 00:40:55,160
Speaker 4: save the workers, et cetera. So that was their story.

709
00:40:55,680 --> 00:40:59,359
Speaker 3: Our story is we are making a planet sick, and

710
00:40:59,520 --> 00:41:03,240
Speaker 3: we can be healthy as humans in a sick planet.

711
00:41:03,680 --> 00:41:06,279
Speaker 3: So we have to change the way we relate to

712
00:41:06,320 --> 00:41:09,640
Speaker 3: the planet. It's that simple, right. I Mean, it's a little.

713
00:41:09,400 --> 00:41:12,240
Speaker 4: More sophisticated that in the book, but the bare bones

714
00:41:12,320 --> 00:41:15,359
Speaker 4: is this, you know, a sick planet cannot support a

715
00:41:15,400 --> 00:41:18,719
Speaker 4: healthy life or any kind of life, human or otherwise.

716
00:41:19,160 --> 00:41:21,640
Speaker 4: So then the second part of the manifesto is, okay,

717
00:41:21,719 --> 00:41:22,640
Speaker 4: what do you do about this?

718
00:41:22,800 --> 00:41:26,200
Speaker 3: What are the action items? Right? And in their case

719
00:41:26,400 --> 00:41:29,759
Speaker 3: was you know, workers of the world unite and you know,

720
00:41:29,880 --> 00:41:32,839
Speaker 3: let's throw out the kings and all that, and that's

721
00:41:32,880 --> 00:41:35,080
Speaker 3: what happened with Itzar in Russia.

722
00:41:35,200 --> 00:41:39,399
Speaker 4: But in our case is about what can we do

723
00:41:39,600 --> 00:41:43,920
Speaker 4: as individuals and as a society in order to actually

724
00:41:44,760 --> 00:41:48,280
Speaker 4: start really making a difference, right, And I suggest several

725
00:41:48,400 --> 00:41:52,279
Speaker 4: different things. Okay, So at the individual level, and not

726
00:41:52,440 --> 00:41:56,319
Speaker 4: just at individual I also at the corporate level. Is

727
00:41:56,360 --> 00:42:01,320
Speaker 4: the notion of I call it the doctrine of less what. Well,

728
00:42:02,480 --> 00:42:06,560
Speaker 4: you don't need to become vegan overnight, because you know

729
00:42:06,719 --> 00:42:10,400
Speaker 4: that doesn't work. But if you cut your meat consumption

730
00:42:11,000 --> 00:42:15,800
Speaker 4: in half, if everybody cut the meat consumption in half,

731
00:42:15,920 --> 00:42:19,600
Speaker 4: a fifty percent solution, you will make a tremendous impact

732
00:42:20,040 --> 00:42:24,440
Speaker 4: on the amount of not just the methane and the

733
00:42:24,440 --> 00:42:28,319
Speaker 4: carbon dioxide, but the water pollution and soil pollution, the

734
00:42:28,400 --> 00:42:32,239
Speaker 4: cattle grazing and cutting the forest to have area for

735
00:42:32,320 --> 00:42:34,560
Speaker 4: the cattle to graze would make Okay.

736
00:42:34,600 --> 00:42:39,400
Speaker 3: So the notion that it is possible to make personal choices,

737
00:42:39,480 --> 00:42:43,320
Speaker 3: that's the real challenge. There are personal choices that you can.

738
00:42:43,200 --> 00:42:46,399
Speaker 4: Make that may not be ideal for you, that may

739
00:42:46,440 --> 00:42:51,280
Speaker 4: involve a certain level of self sacrifice that will impact people.

740
00:42:51,280 --> 00:42:53,480
Speaker 4: And some people are man, I don't care, you know,

741
00:42:53,560 --> 00:42:54,560
Speaker 4: I don't want to do that.

742
00:42:55,000 --> 00:42:57,800
Speaker 3: Well, if we don't care, we're going to be a price.

743
00:42:58,080 --> 00:43:01,560
Speaker 4: Like if we didn't care about the Japanese invasion of

744
00:43:01,600 --> 00:43:04,600
Speaker 4: the Nazis in Europe, we would have lost Second World

745
00:43:04,680 --> 00:43:07,399
Speaker 4: War and the world will have been a very very

746
00:43:07,400 --> 00:43:08,560
Speaker 4: different place right now.

747
00:43:09,120 --> 00:43:11,640
Speaker 3: So we care, and when we care, we.

748
00:43:11,560 --> 00:43:15,200
Speaker 4: Make change happens. Right The Manhattan Project is a great

749
00:43:15,239 --> 00:43:18,480
Speaker 4: example that. You know, if people watched Openheimer, they know

750
00:43:18,520 --> 00:43:22,000
Speaker 4: what I'm talking about. That was an incredibly difficult technical challenge,

751
00:43:22,440 --> 00:43:26,680
Speaker 4: very expensive. But you put a bunch of great minds

752
00:43:26,719 --> 00:43:29,240
Speaker 4: together and give them the resources, and we can solve

753
00:43:29,280 --> 00:43:31,400
Speaker 4: problems to a certain point.

754
00:43:31,520 --> 00:43:33,160
Speaker 3: I'm going to get to that in a second.

755
00:43:33,760 --> 00:43:40,439
Speaker 4: So less meat, less energy, less water, less garbage. These

756
00:43:40,480 --> 00:43:44,080
Speaker 4: are the four lessons that we can all work on together.

757
00:43:44,600 --> 00:43:48,680
Speaker 4: Shorter showers, more coposting, et cetera. So all these things

758
00:43:48,960 --> 00:43:51,520
Speaker 4: can be done. And then there is the doctrine of

759
00:43:51,560 --> 00:43:56,040
Speaker 4: the more more, what more? Engaging with the natural world.

760
00:43:56,880 --> 00:44:00,440
Speaker 4: What does that mean? It means go out look at

761
00:44:00,560 --> 00:44:02,799
Speaker 4: nature once now, I look up at the sky. If

762
00:44:02,800 --> 00:44:05,920
Speaker 4: you live in the city, find a darker corner, go

763
00:44:06,000 --> 00:44:09,759
Speaker 4: to a park, look at the park, pay attention to

764
00:44:09,800 --> 00:44:10,560
Speaker 4: what's going on.

765
00:44:11,040 --> 00:44:11,799
Speaker 3: Walk by the.

766
00:44:11,719 --> 00:44:15,200
Speaker 4: Ocean front, you know, engage with the natural world, because,

767
00:44:15,600 --> 00:44:17,920
Speaker 4: as I was saying earlier, you know, for most of

768
00:44:17,960 --> 00:44:22,920
Speaker 4: our existence, we were beings in the natural world.

769
00:44:23,200 --> 00:44:25,120
Speaker 3: That's what we vote for. That's why we.

770
00:44:25,280 --> 00:44:28,480
Speaker 4: Sweat and we run distances. You know, I'm a long

771
00:44:28,520 --> 00:44:32,200
Speaker 4: distance runner. I love that and because that connects me

772
00:44:32,880 --> 00:44:34,520
Speaker 4: with really the essence of what.

773
00:44:34,440 --> 00:44:35,120
Speaker 3: We have volved here.

774
00:44:35,160 --> 00:44:38,600
Speaker 4: For we were like hunting antelopes and gazelles, you know,

775
00:44:38,640 --> 00:44:42,600
Speaker 4: two hundred thousand years ago, and we got them even

776
00:44:42,680 --> 00:44:44,719
Speaker 4: though they're much faster than we are, because we could

777
00:44:44,800 --> 00:44:47,319
Speaker 4: do this for a long time. So we have all

778
00:44:47,360 --> 00:44:53,200
Speaker 4: those senses of very good vision, very good resistance, and

779
00:44:53,480 --> 00:44:57,520
Speaker 4: ways of moving which are designed to be in the world.

780
00:44:57,600 --> 00:45:01,400
Speaker 4: But what we have done since Sagra Sation is we

781
00:45:01,560 --> 00:45:04,880
Speaker 4: created cities which are the anti nature.

782
00:45:04,960 --> 00:45:08,239
Speaker 3: Think about that, right. A city is a ball of

783
00:45:08,280 --> 00:45:10,640
Speaker 3: concrete surrounded by nature on all sides.

784
00:45:11,080 --> 00:45:15,120
Speaker 4: And the idea is that we can engage with nature

785
00:45:15,200 --> 00:45:19,000
Speaker 4: much more. And once we do that, you feel better

786
00:45:19,040 --> 00:45:22,280
Speaker 4: about yourself. Even if it's just a walk in the park.

787
00:45:22,320 --> 00:45:25,040
Speaker 4: You know, people have been talking about forest bathing and

788
00:45:25,080 --> 00:45:28,560
Speaker 4: all these things. Just walk and look at the trees,

789
00:45:28,600 --> 00:45:30,600
Speaker 4: you know, and the clouds in the sky and stuff

790
00:45:30,640 --> 00:45:35,800
Speaker 4: like that. He has measured physiological benefits. You know, lots

791
00:45:35,800 --> 00:45:39,120
Speaker 4: of studies, a few of them at Stanford have already

792
00:45:39,719 --> 00:45:42,359
Speaker 4: demonstrated that we feel.

793
00:45:42,000 --> 00:45:43,920
Speaker 3: Better when we engage with the world.

794
00:45:43,960 --> 00:45:49,160
Speaker 4: So that's the more connection to the world, more respect

795
00:45:49,239 --> 00:45:52,919
Speaker 4: for animal life, right, because that story I was telling

796
00:45:52,920 --> 00:45:57,040
Speaker 4: in the beginning where I said, we have basically deemed

797
00:45:57,080 --> 00:45:59,319
Speaker 4: ourselves the owners of the planets, and we can do

798
00:45:59,360 --> 00:46:03,480
Speaker 4: too everything like we can kill them, we can eat them,

799
00:46:03,680 --> 00:46:06,759
Speaker 4: or we can have them as pats, which is you know,

800
00:46:06,960 --> 00:46:10,040
Speaker 4: think of this this. It's kind of uncomfortable to say this,

801
00:46:10,160 --> 00:46:12,600
Speaker 4: but I'm going to say it because why not look

802
00:46:12,640 --> 00:46:17,120
Speaker 4: at the cognitive dissonance here. We love our pats, We

803
00:46:17,320 --> 00:46:20,880
Speaker 4: love our dogs and our cats and our bunny rabbits

804
00:46:21,000 --> 00:46:22,839
Speaker 4: or even our fish, you know.

805
00:46:23,280 --> 00:46:26,320
Speaker 3: But then we go out and we eat a calf.

806
00:46:28,600 --> 00:46:31,200
Speaker 3: How does that work exactly? And you go visit the

807
00:46:31,239 --> 00:46:33,719
Speaker 3: farm and you go, oh, look, how cute, you know,

808
00:46:33,840 --> 00:46:35,000
Speaker 3: like when you have little kids.

809
00:46:35,040 --> 00:46:37,640
Speaker 4: You go and you go look at the beautiful cow,

810
00:46:37,760 --> 00:46:39,279
Speaker 4: and then we go eat them.

811
00:46:39,920 --> 00:46:43,200
Speaker 3: So what is going on here? You know? And you

812
00:46:43,280 --> 00:46:45,239
Speaker 3: love your dog like yourself, like the.

813
00:46:45,280 --> 00:46:48,360
Speaker 4: Dog dies or like in the deep depression, it's just

814
00:46:48,400 --> 00:46:48,960
Speaker 4: an animal.

815
00:46:49,120 --> 00:46:51,960
Speaker 3: I love my dog deeply. It's just the best dog

816
00:46:52,000 --> 00:46:54,839
Speaker 3: in the world. But so, what is going on here?

817
00:46:54,960 --> 00:46:58,080
Speaker 3: How do we get to be that way? You know? So,

818
00:46:59,080 --> 00:47:00,880
Speaker 3: and that's an uncalled conversation.

819
00:47:01,120 --> 00:47:03,520
Speaker 4: You know, they're like, look, there's a story that can

820
00:47:03,560 --> 00:47:06,360
Speaker 4: be told from the farm to the junk of meeting

821
00:47:06,400 --> 00:47:10,080
Speaker 4: a supermarket, but it's so far removed that we just

822
00:47:10,160 --> 00:47:13,000
Speaker 4: go to the market and we buy that, and we

823
00:47:13,000 --> 00:47:14,560
Speaker 4: we just you know, we don't care.

824
00:47:15,560 --> 00:47:18,360
Speaker 3: But we should be caring more. That's the point. You know.

825
00:47:18,400 --> 00:47:21,080
Speaker 3: It's because we didn't care for thousands of years that

826
00:47:21,200 --> 00:47:22,000
Speaker 3: we are.

827
00:47:21,680 --> 00:47:25,960
Speaker 4: In a difficult situation now. So it's a hard conversation

828
00:47:26,120 --> 00:47:30,040
Speaker 4: to have. But the more engagement of the natural world

829
00:47:30,160 --> 00:47:33,640
Speaker 4: is essential. And the other thing I suggest is two

830
00:47:33,640 --> 00:47:36,719
Speaker 4: more things, just because you know, the Eyasa could talk

831
00:47:36,760 --> 00:47:37,279
Speaker 4: for too long.

832
00:47:38,160 --> 00:47:42,120
Speaker 3: One is the notion of education.

833
00:47:43,160 --> 00:47:47,600
Speaker 4: Every school, at any level, from elementary school to pach

834
00:47:47,760 --> 00:47:51,160
Speaker 4: d level, should tell the story of who we are

835
00:47:51,200 --> 00:47:54,480
Speaker 4: in the universe. This whole conversation that we had about

836
00:47:55,280 --> 00:47:58,200
Speaker 4: where we come from from stars, how we evolved in

837
00:47:58,239 --> 00:48:01,040
Speaker 4: this planet, how connected we are to all forms of.

838
00:48:00,960 --> 00:48:03,920
Speaker 3: Life and to this world in particular. This is a

839
00:48:04,000 --> 00:48:08,279
Speaker 3: story that should be told at all levels, you know,

840
00:48:08,400 --> 00:48:11,239
Speaker 3: and we hardly have a talk about this, and that's

841
00:48:11,239 --> 00:48:13,160
Speaker 3: why we don't know who we are. That's why we

842
00:48:13,200 --> 00:48:14,880
Speaker 3: think we are the owners of the place, because we

843
00:48:15,000 --> 00:48:17,279
Speaker 3: forgot to tell this story, which is.

844
00:48:18,160 --> 00:48:21,799
Speaker 4: The most important story. And finally, as a consumer, you

845
00:48:21,840 --> 00:48:25,560
Speaker 4: have choices too, you know. If you think that that

846
00:48:25,760 --> 00:48:29,400
Speaker 4: certain corporation does not align with your ethical values about

847
00:48:29,440 --> 00:48:32,600
Speaker 4: the environment and about how they treat animals, don't buy

848
00:48:32,600 --> 00:48:37,439
Speaker 4: from that business. Buy from another business. And that has

849
00:48:37,520 --> 00:48:41,040
Speaker 4: more power and more pressure than any think. Consumers have

850
00:48:41,880 --> 00:48:46,280
Speaker 4: power when they unite and boycott a certain company because

851
00:48:46,320 --> 00:48:48,560
Speaker 4: they don't align with their values, you know. And so

852
00:48:48,960 --> 00:48:51,719
Speaker 4: there's this Being an optimist, I have to say, there

853
00:48:51,760 --> 00:48:54,920
Speaker 4: is this thing called bi corporations now, which are corporations

854
00:48:54,960 --> 00:48:58,680
Speaker 4: that have an ethos, have a way of dealing with

855
00:48:58,719 --> 00:49:03,279
Speaker 4: the world which is much more alignment sustainability and circular economics, etc.

856
00:49:04,840 --> 00:49:07,839
Speaker 4: And so this is happening already, and I have tremendous

857
00:49:07,880 --> 00:49:10,960
Speaker 4: fate that all this work is going to kind of

858
00:49:11,040 --> 00:49:14,400
Speaker 4: crystallize into a different way of thinking about who we

859
00:49:14,440 --> 00:49:16,560
Speaker 4: are in the next decade or so.

860
00:49:17,840 --> 00:49:20,600
Speaker 2: And you also point out that there's a responsibility for

861
00:49:20,640 --> 00:49:22,040
Speaker 2: the scientific community as well.

862
00:49:22,160 --> 00:49:25,880
Speaker 4: Correct, there is because and that's the hard one because

863
00:49:25,960 --> 00:49:30,320
Speaker 4: as a scientist, I know how my peers think, and

864
00:49:31,560 --> 00:49:35,880
Speaker 4: the scientific community should be telling the story I believe

865
00:49:36,480 --> 00:49:39,960
Speaker 4: as it is, which is not like, oh, there are

866
00:49:40,040 --> 00:49:42,600
Speaker 4: lots of Earth like you know, you know, people talk

867
00:49:42,640 --> 00:49:45,640
Speaker 4: about other earths out there. Now there are no other

868
00:49:45,760 --> 00:49:49,040
Speaker 4: earths out there. There may be Earth analogus, but there's

869
00:49:49,120 --> 00:49:51,880
Speaker 4: only one Earth. So it's just a way of telling

870
00:49:51,920 --> 00:49:54,440
Speaker 4: the story. As you know, the way you tell a

871
00:49:54,520 --> 00:49:57,719
Speaker 4: story makes a huge difference. You could be telling the

872
00:49:57,800 --> 00:50:01,840
Speaker 4: same story and completely change the meaning of that story.

873
00:50:02,239 --> 00:50:05,040
Speaker 4: And so I think we should be very careful about

874
00:50:05,120 --> 00:50:08,080
Speaker 4: telling the story of our planet and our species in

875
00:50:08,120 --> 00:50:15,120
Speaker 4: this planet in a much more environmentally aware way. And

876
00:50:15,239 --> 00:50:17,880
Speaker 4: with this notion, and you know, when you use the

877
00:50:17,920 --> 00:50:22,000
Speaker 4: word sacred, you know most scientists scringe, right because they

878
00:50:22,000 --> 00:50:25,560
Speaker 4: associated that with other kinds of sacred. No, but I'm

879
00:50:25,600 --> 00:50:29,560
Speaker 4: talking about the sacredness of life that that perhaps is

880
00:50:29,560 --> 00:50:34,799
Speaker 4: the most fundamental universal moral value, which is life is

881
00:50:34,840 --> 00:50:39,439
Speaker 4: sacred right and our life of another human, but other

882
00:50:39,560 --> 00:50:40,400
Speaker 4: life forms do.

883
00:50:40,600 --> 00:50:42,719
Speaker 3: And so if you relate to that in a more

884
00:50:42,800 --> 00:50:46,000
Speaker 3: concrete way, not just as you're just saying that. As

885
00:50:46,000 --> 00:50:48,040
Speaker 3: a scientist, you have a role to play.

886
00:50:48,520 --> 00:50:50,680
Speaker 4: You are a role model for this way of thinking

887
00:50:50,719 --> 00:50:53,480
Speaker 4: about the world because you are the one bringing all

888
00:50:53,480 --> 00:50:56,520
Speaker 4: this information to the public. Right, so the people that

889
00:50:56,560 --> 00:51:01,040
Speaker 4: are writing books about science should be thinking a little

890
00:51:01,040 --> 00:51:04,720
Speaker 4: more carefully about what are they saying of the power

891
00:51:04,760 --> 00:51:07,880
Speaker 4: of science, and science, for example, solve all the problems.

892
00:51:07,920 --> 00:51:09,680
Speaker 4: I probably always going to go back to that, and

893
00:51:09,719 --> 00:51:11,719
Speaker 4: I can go back to that right now, and the

894
00:51:11,760 --> 00:51:15,719
Speaker 4: answer is absolutely not. You know, science not all problems

895
00:51:15,760 --> 00:51:19,759
Speaker 4: have a scientific solution. You know, some problems have a

896
00:51:19,880 --> 00:51:24,600
Speaker 4: complicated solution that also uses science, but it uses philosophy.

897
00:51:25,080 --> 00:51:29,520
Speaker 4: He uses anthropology to anthropological ways of thinking about who

898
00:51:29,560 --> 00:51:33,280
Speaker 4: we are in a culture, and native ways of thinking

899
00:51:33,320 --> 00:51:36,120
Speaker 4: about who we are and how we relate to certain values.

900
00:51:36,200 --> 00:51:39,399
Speaker 3: So I would believe that now we are.

901
00:51:39,280 --> 00:51:44,080
Speaker 4: At this point where the science that we are using

902
00:51:44,120 --> 00:51:47,440
Speaker 4: to describe the planet, you know, it's called systems science,

903
00:51:48,160 --> 00:51:51,439
Speaker 4: is telling us a story that we have to bring

904
00:51:51,560 --> 00:51:56,040
Speaker 4: together different ways of knowing in order to tell people

905
00:51:56,760 --> 00:52:00,440
Speaker 4: what really matters in this world. Not just we are

906
00:52:00,440 --> 00:52:03,880
Speaker 4: going to sequest the carbon with our machines, and that's.

907
00:52:03,680 --> 00:52:05,000
Speaker 3: Going to solve oup all as well.

908
00:52:05,080 --> 00:52:10,080
Speaker 4: Will not because guess what science historically, and that's a

909
00:52:10,080 --> 00:52:13,560
Speaker 4: hard thing to say, but it's true. Historically science always

910
00:52:13,600 --> 00:52:19,520
Speaker 4: has served those in power because science needs money to operate,

911
00:52:20,080 --> 00:52:24,000
Speaker 4: and this alligance between science and state and science and.

912
00:52:24,040 --> 00:52:26,600
Speaker 3: Industry is what has pushed science forward.

913
00:52:26,960 --> 00:52:30,160
Speaker 4: So unless you have an industry that has a certain

914
00:52:30,160 --> 00:52:32,840
Speaker 4: way of thinking about the world, or powers in state

915
00:52:33,400 --> 00:52:35,360
Speaker 4: they have a certain way of thinking about the world,

916
00:52:35,400 --> 00:52:39,120
Speaker 4: the science that is going to be mostly funded is

917
00:52:39,160 --> 00:52:41,040
Speaker 4: not going to be the science that is going to

918
00:52:41,080 --> 00:52:44,840
Speaker 4: bring us out of our mindset unless we have a

919
00:52:44,840 --> 00:52:47,400
Speaker 4: different mindset, which is what I'm proposing.

920
00:52:47,960 --> 00:52:51,319
Speaker 2: So again it falls to us. It falls to society

921
00:52:51,440 --> 00:52:54,520
Speaker 2: to really be the major movement here.

922
00:52:54,880 --> 00:52:58,920
Speaker 3: It falls to society. It falls to families, communities, schools.

923
00:52:59,000 --> 00:53:01,640
Speaker 3: You know, it's a rest roots thing. You know, it

924
00:53:01,719 --> 00:53:05,440
Speaker 3: goes from every In my opinion and of course, you know,

925
00:53:05,560 --> 00:53:09,200
Speaker 3: is that every family should be sitting down together and

926
00:53:09,280 --> 00:53:12,600
Speaker 3: talking about this problem because if you have kids, hey,

927
00:53:12,840 --> 00:53:14,520
Speaker 3: this is the world they're going to be living in,

928
00:53:14,680 --> 00:53:18,719
Speaker 3: you know, and and it's our responsibility to kind of

929
00:53:19,280 --> 00:53:22,640
Speaker 3: make them aware of what's going on and what the

930
00:53:22,680 --> 00:53:25,640
Speaker 3: possible choices we have for a future that is going

931
00:53:25,719 --> 00:53:29,360
Speaker 3: to be a great future, not just a horrible dystopic future,

932
00:53:29,400 --> 00:53:30,680
Speaker 3: which is what so.

933
00:53:30,680 --> 00:53:33,200
Speaker 4: Many people are talking about, right. I mean, it's you

934
00:53:33,280 --> 00:53:35,320
Speaker 4: talk about doomscrolling for a reason.

935
00:53:35,840 --> 00:53:40,560
Speaker 3: Lots of public intellectuals are talking about a world with

936
00:53:40,719 --> 00:53:44,319
Speaker 3: a horrible future ahead, right, like digital doom and you

937
00:53:44,360 --> 00:53:48,719
Speaker 3: know you name it, like none of technology taking over,

938
00:53:49,000 --> 00:53:52,640
Speaker 3: you know, like noneobots and all sorts of existential risks,

939
00:53:53,120 --> 00:53:56,040
Speaker 3: and very few people are talking about Okay, these are.

940
00:53:55,880 --> 00:53:59,880
Speaker 4: The risks, what are the solutions? How can we revert that?

941
00:54:00,000 --> 00:54:02,720
Speaker 4: And that's a much harder job because it's so easy

942
00:54:02,760 --> 00:54:05,400
Speaker 4: to point fingers and say this is happening. So this

943
00:54:05,480 --> 00:54:08,000
Speaker 4: is going to happen, But what about what can we

944
00:54:08,040 --> 00:54:11,440
Speaker 4: do even though it costs? That's the thing, you know,

945
00:54:11,520 --> 00:54:15,680
Speaker 4: every choice we make involves a little level of self

946
00:54:15,719 --> 00:54:19,160
Speaker 4: sacrifice because you cannot leave the other choice. So you're

947
00:54:19,160 --> 00:54:22,279
Speaker 4: always losing something when you make a choice. But some

948
00:54:22,400 --> 00:54:25,600
Speaker 4: choices are for the common good, and it's time for

949
00:54:25,680 --> 00:54:28,400
Speaker 4: us to be thinking about us and this planet in

950
00:54:28,520 --> 00:54:31,960
Speaker 4: terms of the common good. Ours and everybody else is

951
00:54:32,000 --> 00:54:32,359
Speaker 4: in it.

952
00:54:33,120 --> 00:54:36,000
Speaker 2: So thank you so much. For writing such an inspirational

953
00:54:36,040 --> 00:54:37,960
Speaker 2: book and for coming on the show to discuss it.

954
00:54:38,560 --> 00:54:40,879
Speaker 2: I recommend it to all our listeners. It's a great read.

955
00:54:40,880 --> 00:54:43,920
Speaker 2: It's a very consumable read. You just end up reading

956
00:54:44,160 --> 00:54:46,920
Speaker 2: the entire book in a single session, And I think

957
00:54:46,960 --> 00:54:48,799
Speaker 2: it's a great read to kick off the new year,

958
00:54:48,840 --> 00:54:49,560
Speaker 2: wouldn't you say?

959
00:54:49,760 --> 00:54:52,680
Speaker 3: Absolutely? Twenty twenty four, folks, you know this is the

960
00:54:52,760 --> 00:54:57,880
Speaker 3: year where if things don't change radically, you know, we

961
00:54:57,960 --> 00:54:59,560
Speaker 3: are going to be paying more and more of a

962
00:54:59,600 --> 00:55:01,839
Speaker 3: price every year. And we don't want that. We want

963
00:55:01,840 --> 00:55:03,960
Speaker 3: a better place. We don't want a worse place. So

964
00:55:04,080 --> 00:55:07,160
Speaker 3: let's wake up and work together to make this happen.

965
00:55:07,920 --> 00:55:11,160
Speaker 2: Well said. Where can our listeners follow you and learn

966
00:55:11,200 --> 00:55:12,040
Speaker 2: more about your work?

967
00:55:12,440 --> 00:55:15,920
Speaker 3: Oh, I'm all over at social media. You know. There

968
00:55:15,960 --> 00:55:20,040
Speaker 3: is a Marcella Glizer dot com. I am on x

969
00:55:20,280 --> 00:55:23,440
Speaker 3: and Instagram, and I have a ton of followers on

970
00:55:23,520 --> 00:55:28,200
Speaker 3: YouTube and so and also LinkedIn because I'm starting a

971
00:55:28,239 --> 00:55:33,839
Speaker 3: new think tank in Tuscany actually, which is precisely to

972
00:55:33,880 --> 00:55:38,400
Speaker 3: help corporate leaders rethink about their roles in the world.

973
00:55:38,680 --> 00:55:40,759
Speaker 3: You know. So I'm thinking that one way we could

974
00:55:40,800 --> 00:55:44,080
Speaker 3: affect change is by going straight to the power source

975
00:55:44,719 --> 00:55:47,799
Speaker 3: and making them see other ways of thinking about the

976
00:55:47,840 --> 00:55:52,000
Speaker 3: world and then implement them in their business. So, in

977
00:55:52,000 --> 00:55:54,560
Speaker 3: a sense, even though I don't like trickle down economics,

978
00:55:54,600 --> 00:55:58,160
Speaker 3: this would be a trickle down worldview change, and that's

979
00:55:58,200 --> 00:56:00,719
Speaker 3: what we're trying to do. So I'm all over. I

980
00:56:00,880 --> 00:56:02,640
Speaker 3: just look for my name and you'll find.

981
00:56:02,400 --> 00:56:06,280
Speaker 2: Me excellent, and we'll have our social media accounts tag

982
00:56:06,320 --> 00:56:07,640
Speaker 2: you where we can as well.

983
00:56:08,000 --> 00:56:10,160
Speaker 3: Awesome, Rob, Thank you so much for your time and

984
00:56:10,239 --> 00:56:11,000
Speaker 3: fight invitation.

985
00:56:11,440 --> 00:56:13,920
Speaker 2: Thank you for chatting with us, Thank you, thank you.

986
00:56:15,760 --> 00:56:18,200
Speaker 2: Thanks again to Marcello Glizer for taking time out of

987
00:56:18,200 --> 00:56:20,799
Speaker 2: his holiday to chat with me here. The Dawn of

988
00:56:20,840 --> 00:56:24,919
Speaker 2: a Mindful Universe, a manifesto for Humanity's future, is out now.

989
00:56:25,280 --> 00:56:29,000
Speaker 2: Grab a copy. I highly recommend it. A reminder to

990
00:56:29,040 --> 00:56:31,040
Speaker 2: everyone out there that Stuff to Blow Your Mind is

991
00:56:31,040 --> 00:56:35,239
Speaker 2: primarily a science podcast with core episodes on Tuesdays and Thursdays,

992
00:56:35,360 --> 00:56:37,920
Speaker 2: though on Fridays we set aside most serious concerns to

993
00:56:37,920 --> 00:56:40,520
Speaker 2: just talk about a weird movie on Weird House Cinema.

994
00:56:40,920 --> 00:56:43,480
Speaker 2: Also a reminder to everyone to please rate and review

995
00:56:43,520 --> 00:56:45,719
Speaker 2: the show wherever you have the power to do so,

996
00:56:45,760 --> 00:56:48,240
Speaker 2: and hey, if you listen to us on an Apple device.

997
00:56:48,480 --> 00:56:50,719
Speaker 2: Maybe check in and make sure that you're still subscribed

998
00:56:51,000 --> 00:56:54,880
Speaker 2: and receiving downloads. It helps us out. Thanks as always

999
00:56:54,880 --> 00:56:57,759
Speaker 2: to the excellent JJ Possway for producing the show. If

1000
00:56:57,800 --> 00:56:59,640
Speaker 2: you want to get in touch with us, email us

1001
00:56:59,760 --> 00:57:11,080
Speaker 2: at contact at Stuff to Blow Your Mind dot com.

1002
00:57:11,120 --> 00:57:14,080
Speaker 1: Stuff to Blow Your Mind is production of iHeartRadio. For

1003
00:57:14,160 --> 00:57:16,960
Speaker 1: more podcasts from my heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app,

1004
00:57:17,120 --> 00:57:34,280
Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.