WEBVTT - Yolk with Doak 8: Routing - Part 1 0:00:00.720 --> 0:00:03.280 Welcome back to another edition of the Yoke with Doak. 0:00:03.880 --> 0:00:07.000 This time Tom and I are joined by longtime Renaissance 0:00:07.040 --> 0:00:11.680 golf associate Don Plasik. Don is a man of many talents, 0:00:11.720 --> 0:00:15.400 and beyond golf course architecture, he is also behind much 0:00:15.440 --> 0:00:18.919 of the Renaissance artwork, such as the routing maps and 0:00:18.960 --> 0:00:22.720 the yardage books. Here's the first part of a two 0:00:22.760 --> 0:00:25.479 part episode with Tom and Don about the soul of 0:00:25.480 --> 0:00:36.880 a golf course, the routing and joy. 0:00:38.159 --> 0:00:41.080 Tom Dolk is back and as usual he's not holding back. 0:00:43.520 --> 0:00:47.720 But don't toss the yolk, and the famously candid Oak 0:00:47.840 --> 0:00:52.640 doesn't pull any punches. How do I make natural looking? Contour? 0:00:53.560 --> 0:00:55.560 Hire the biggest pool in the village and told him 0:00:55.560 --> 0:00:57.480 to make it flat? First? 0:00:57.480 --> 0:00:59.440 Overrated, underrated, rough. 0:01:01.000 --> 0:01:11.360 Terribly overrated, over the earth. You know, I fell in 0:01:11.400 --> 0:01:14.680 love with Cyprus Point when I was a teenager, partly 0:01:14.760 --> 0:01:18.039 because that routing is so good. You know, you go through, 0:01:19.280 --> 0:01:24.000 You go from the clubhouse by the ocean, through some 0:01:24.200 --> 0:01:28.919 lynxy stuff, back into the trees, up into the dunes, 0:01:29.920 --> 0:01:33.200 back out of the dunes, into the trees, back through 0:01:33.200 --> 0:01:36.039 the lynxy stuff, and you wind up on the coast. 0:01:36.840 --> 0:01:40.880 I mean you see the whole property. You know, it's 0:01:40.959 --> 0:01:44.840 not just divided up into trees, lynks coast. You kind 0:01:44.840 --> 0:01:50.840 of move back and forth between them. So it's a 0:01:50.880 --> 0:01:53.080 spectacular way to see the property. It's like if you 0:01:53.080 --> 0:01:55.560 were going to walk the property, that's the way you'd 0:01:55.560 --> 0:01:58.920 walk it. Another one that I used as an example 0:01:59.000 --> 0:02:01.440 of that in my book years ago was Cruden Bay 0:02:01.480 --> 0:02:04.480 in Scotland. You know, you sort of start high up 0:02:04.760 --> 0:02:09.040 the clubhouse is up by the town overlooking the lynx. 0:02:09.639 --> 0:02:13.040 You play down into the lower land for two or 0:02:13.120 --> 0:02:16.359 three holes, not so spectacular. Then all of a sudden 0:02:16.360 --> 0:02:19.480 you're up right by the fourth tee is like right 0:02:19.560 --> 0:02:22.720 up by a little inlet across from the fishing village, 0:02:23.120 --> 0:02:25.840 So you play right along there for a hole, and 0:02:25.880 --> 0:02:28.399 then you get up and you're playing along the big 0:02:28.520 --> 0:02:33.160 dunes from like five to seven and eight. Then you 0:02:33.280 --> 0:02:35.120 have to wind your way up a hill and play 0:02:35.120 --> 0:02:37.600 across a field up at the top of it, and 0:02:37.639 --> 0:02:41.080 then plunge back down into the lynx and go around. 0:02:41.120 --> 0:02:45.520 So it's a big figure eight on a simple level, 0:02:45.720 --> 0:02:52.160 but again it's moving through different styles of land and 0:02:54.120 --> 0:02:56.720 it's probably exactly the way you'd walk the site if 0:02:56.760 --> 0:02:58.600 I wanted to show you what that site was like, 0:02:59.160 --> 0:03:01.880 and we were starting where the clubhouse was. We'd go 0:03:01.960 --> 0:03:04.000 down to the one end, we'd go look at the 0:03:04.000 --> 0:03:06.560 little village on the end, we'd walk back through the 0:03:06.560 --> 0:03:09.600 big dunes, we'd go up the big valley where eight is, 0:03:09.680 --> 0:03:11.560 and then we'd go over the field to get to 0:03:11.560 --> 0:03:12.200 the other side. 0:03:14.040 --> 0:03:19.880 Would would you prefer to have a course that's gotform 0:03:20.680 --> 0:03:24.040 a uniform look and feel to it, or a lot 0:03:24.080 --> 0:03:27.519 of different types of topography, whether it be an open 0:03:28.280 --> 0:03:31.200 section or then into the woods and then you know, 0:03:31.320 --> 0:03:37.400 maybe out into water, or have one landscape that's consistent throughout. Well. 0:03:37.440 --> 0:03:39.520 I think I probably gave that away with the answer 0:03:39.640 --> 0:03:44.240 to my last question. I'd prefer variety. I mean, ultimately, 0:03:44.280 --> 0:03:47.440 what you're trying to get by routing a golf course 0:03:47.520 --> 0:03:51.760 is variety. If you've got different looks to the terrain 0:03:51.920 --> 0:03:54.640 and different parts of it that you go to, that's 0:03:54.680 --> 0:03:58.080 a huge head start. Whereas if you've got you know, 0:03:58.160 --> 0:04:01.320 if you got a typical parkland site it's something like Inverness, 0:04:01.600 --> 0:04:03.440 then you've got to work a lot harder to make 0:04:03.480 --> 0:04:07.600 the holes either hit the topography in different ways. Creates 0:04:07.640 --> 0:04:10.960 the variety or change directions a lot, but that's hard 0:04:11.040 --> 0:04:13.200 to do. When you get to a smaller and smaller site, 0:04:13.240 --> 0:04:16.000 you wind up with more parallel holes. But in the end, 0:04:16.040 --> 0:04:19.600 you're going for variety. So if the property has variety 0:04:19.640 --> 0:04:22.080 to start with, that's a big head start. 0:04:24.200 --> 0:04:28.640 So Mitchell Driver asks a good question here, how do 0:04:28.720 --> 0:04:32.479 you know the routing you choose is the best for 0:04:32.560 --> 0:04:37.479 the property? And how do you choose what directions holes go? 0:04:37.680 --> 0:04:42.560 With over one thousand options. 0:04:44.480 --> 0:04:46.280 The truth is you never know. That's one of the 0:04:46.320 --> 0:04:48.680 most interesting things about it, you know. I compare it 0:04:48.720 --> 0:04:53.359 to like doing routings is like doing a puzzle, you know, 0:04:53.480 --> 0:04:55.160 like the first time you look at the Sunday New 0:04:55.200 --> 0:04:57.680 York Times crossword puzzle, you go, well, this is impossible. 0:04:57.680 --> 0:05:02.960 I could never finish this. And if you're persistent with it, 0:05:03.000 --> 0:05:05.800 you get better at it over time and you understand 0:05:05.800 --> 0:05:08.400 how things fit together better and it gets easier, and 0:05:08.400 --> 0:05:13.560 eventually you can do it if you're reasonably smart. Doing 0:05:13.680 --> 0:05:16.719 routings is the same. The only difference is they don't 0:05:16.720 --> 0:05:20.720 print the answers in the paper the next weekend, so 0:05:20.839 --> 0:05:24.120 you don't know whether the solution you've got that you 0:05:24.240 --> 0:05:27.160 really like is really the best one. First of all, 0:05:27.200 --> 0:05:29.680 it's all a matter of opinion. You know, different architects 0:05:29.680 --> 0:05:32.239 would pick different you know, if we if I laid 0:05:32.240 --> 0:05:36.240 out five different routings for a golf course, people would 0:05:36.240 --> 0:05:40.200 have different opinions on what was the best. And then 0:05:40.880 --> 0:05:45.960 besides that, it's like, okay, how much more how much 0:05:46.000 --> 0:05:48.479 more time do I need to give this to really 0:05:48.480 --> 0:05:51.000 be comfortable that's the best, And I and I don't 0:05:51.000 --> 0:05:53.640 figure out a better way to put it together, and 0:05:53.680 --> 0:05:57.800 I'll just you know, I could name a bunch of 0:05:57.839 --> 0:06:01.800 examples of where you know, pisif Dunes. I thought I 0:06:01.880 --> 0:06:07.800 had a pretty good routing, you know, first I went there. First, 0:06:07.800 --> 0:06:10.440 I had the maps, and I played around with the 0:06:10.480 --> 0:06:13.160 maps a little bit before I ever went there, and 0:06:13.240 --> 0:06:16.640 I had a routing before I went there. I didn't 0:06:16.680 --> 0:06:19.400 expect it to be the final routing. I hoped that 0:06:19.560 --> 0:06:22.039 maybe I found a few holes that would wind up 0:06:22.040 --> 0:06:24.440 in the final routing. So I took it out there 0:06:24.480 --> 0:06:27.760 with me, and I'm there for like an hour, and 0:06:27.839 --> 0:06:34.320 it's trash because, among other things, Bandon Dunes used three 0:06:34.400 --> 0:06:37.880 or put three or four holes up into the map 0:06:37.920 --> 0:06:41.280 that I was working off of, So that like completely 0:06:41.360 --> 0:06:44.240 messed up some of you know, not only not only 0:06:44.279 --> 0:06:46.200 did it take some holes out of what I wanted 0:06:46.240 --> 0:06:49.120 to do, but it took out how I was connecting 0:06:49.160 --> 0:06:54.080 holes together and where I was connecting holes together. So okay, 0:06:54.120 --> 0:06:56.280 so that's trash, and it's like, oh damn. Now you 0:06:56.360 --> 0:06:59.240 got to regroup and and try to look at this 0:06:59.360 --> 0:07:01.400 fresh and you know, what can I say from this 0:07:01.520 --> 0:07:04.240 first one, and how can I put that back together? 0:07:04.480 --> 0:07:06.320 And you know, which of these holes do I like? 0:07:08.080 --> 0:07:10.840 Off that first map that I did. There's three holes 0:07:10.880 --> 0:07:18.800 that are on the on the golf course today, the sixth, 0:07:19.400 --> 0:07:23.440 the short part four, the eleventh, the par three along 0:07:23.480 --> 0:07:28.280 the coast, and I think the other one is the sixteenth. 0:07:28.360 --> 0:07:30.160 I'm trying to remember for sure, but I'm pretty sure 0:07:30.160 --> 0:07:35.160 it's the sixteenth. So so I did another routing that 0:07:35.280 --> 0:07:40.640 had those holes in it and a few, you know, 0:07:40.880 --> 0:07:43.440 quite a bit more of what's what's in the final 0:07:43.520 --> 0:07:48.800 routing now. But we couldn't walk all the sight because 0:07:48.800 --> 0:07:50.760 it was some of it was covered in gorse. Some 0:07:50.840 --> 0:07:52.440 of it you could walk, and some of it was 0:07:52.480 --> 0:07:55.000 just solid gorse and you couldn't really get through there. 0:07:55.160 --> 0:07:56.760 A lot of the holes that are kind of on 0:07:56.800 --> 0:08:01.720 that plane, the plane in the middle of the course, 0:08:01.880 --> 0:08:04.560 number four along the coast, and all the holes in 0:08:04.640 --> 0:08:07.960 and from that twelve and three that was just solid. 0:08:08.000 --> 0:08:10.600 Couldn't couldn't walk through there. You know, we knew it 0:08:10.640 --> 0:08:14.160 was pretty flat, but we couldn't see any features. And 0:08:14.200 --> 0:08:16.280 then we did get around to the far side and 0:08:16.360 --> 0:08:19.080 find where thirteen and fourteen were because you could walk 0:08:19.120 --> 0:08:21.920 in there from from the north end, kind of from 0:08:22.000 --> 0:08:26.640 where old McDonald is now. So you know, we had 0:08:26.640 --> 0:08:29.440 that piece and then but then, you know, it was 0:08:29.480 --> 0:08:32.280 still uncomfortable to mister Kaiser because we couldn't walk the 0:08:32.320 --> 0:08:36.079 whole thing in order at all. So I had a 0:08:36.160 --> 0:08:41.520 routing and over the you know, over the months while 0:08:41.520 --> 0:08:45.240 we were waiting for the next step, you know, I 0:08:45.360 --> 0:08:48.400 was I was convinced the routing was pretty good. There 0:08:48.400 --> 0:08:50.559 were all kinds of questions about it. Oh, you've got 0:08:50.559 --> 0:08:52.600 back to back part threes. I don't like the idea 0:08:52.720 --> 0:08:56.160 back to back part threes. Honestly, I didn't really like 0:08:56.200 --> 0:08:59.160 the idea of back to back part threes either. I'd 0:08:59.280 --> 0:09:01.480 when I'd come up up with ten and eleven on 0:09:01.559 --> 0:09:04.080 my very first plane before I saw the site. Ten 0:09:04.200 --> 0:09:06.880 was a short part four, but ten t was in 0:09:06.920 --> 0:09:09.040 the middle of one of david Kids fairways, so that 0:09:09.040 --> 0:09:12.600 wouldn't work. So like five minutes after I was there, 0:09:12.679 --> 0:09:14.920 I was like, well, either this is going to have 0:09:15.000 --> 0:09:20.120 back to back par threes, or I'm just gonna not 0:09:20.360 --> 0:09:22.720 use one of these great green sites because this is 0:09:22.760 --> 0:09:27.880 the only way they fit together at all. So anyway, 0:09:28.200 --> 0:09:30.120 you know, I had a routing that I liked, but 0:09:30.160 --> 0:09:32.960 there were questions about it like that, and like the 0:09:33.000 --> 0:09:37.680 other one was after number eleven on that previous routing, 0:09:39.440 --> 0:09:43.400 the next hole went north, not inland where twelve is, 0:09:43.480 --> 0:09:46.400 but along the coast where number four is, so it 0:09:46.440 --> 0:09:50.000 connected up, you know. I basically I had ten, eleven, twelve, thirteen, 0:09:50.600 --> 0:09:55.280 number differently, all along the coast, all headed north. And 0:09:55.320 --> 0:09:58.400 one of mister Kaiser's pieces of feedback was, you know, 0:09:58.520 --> 0:10:02.640 can't we get a whole play to the south along 0:10:02.720 --> 0:10:06.040 the coast, not only because it's better for variety and 0:10:06.080 --> 0:10:08.840 having the water on the right once, but more importantly, 0:10:09.360 --> 0:10:10.760 you know, when people are there in the summer, the 0:10:10.800 --> 0:10:13.120 wind's blown out of the north, and so having three 0:10:13.200 --> 0:10:16.240 or four hole, say having all the most spectacular holes 0:10:16.679 --> 0:10:22.760 playing dead into that wind would have been tough, you know, so, 0:10:25.120 --> 0:10:28.719 And the only problem with trying to accommodate that request 0:10:29.200 --> 0:10:35.640 was ten and eleven were clearly better playing to the north, 0:10:36.520 --> 0:10:40.839 and thirteen was clearly better playing to the north. As 0:10:40.880 --> 0:10:43.640 it turned out, four was better playing to the south. 0:10:44.080 --> 0:10:47.040 But to make that work you have to get in 0:10:47.080 --> 0:10:50.080 there in the middle, cross over in the routing, play 0:10:50.080 --> 0:10:53.440 a hole south, then get back to the inland side, 0:10:53.920 --> 0:10:56.560 and then do it again when you come around, play eleven, 0:10:57.200 --> 0:11:01.000 cross away from the coast, have twelve cross again, and 0:11:01.160 --> 0:11:05.320 play thirteen. So making those connections without having really long 0:11:05.360 --> 0:11:08.720 walks from green to Tea was the toughest part of 0:11:08.760 --> 0:11:12.760 it to figure out in the end, you know. But 0:11:12.840 --> 0:11:16.600 we really didn't know that until they had a fire 0:11:16.880 --> 0:11:18.920 and the gorse burned, and then we could walk the 0:11:18.960 --> 0:11:21.920 whole thing in the order that we wanted to play it, 0:11:22.360 --> 0:11:26.240 and I could see that four would be better playing 0:11:26.280 --> 0:11:28.600 to the south. But then I had to figure out 0:11:28.840 --> 0:11:31.040 you know, that wound up changing about six or seven 0:11:31.080 --> 0:11:34.200 holes of the golf course to make the connections work 0:11:34.320 --> 0:11:38.679 right to have that one hole play south. So you know, 0:11:39.160 --> 0:11:42.080 I'd thought six months before that I had a really 0:11:42.080 --> 0:11:44.000 good routing and it would be a great golf course. 0:11:44.760 --> 0:11:47.560 And then six months later it turned out, no, this 0:11:47.720 --> 0:11:51.079 routing is a lot better. You know, I just needed 0:11:51.080 --> 0:11:53.520 out much more time to come up with it. Part 0:11:53.559 --> 0:11:55.920 of it was not being able to walk it. But 0:11:56.679 --> 0:11:59.320 you know what that taught me was you have to 0:11:59.320 --> 0:12:01.360 take a step back. You know, no matter how good 0:12:01.400 --> 0:12:05.120 you think the routing is, you probably need to like 0:12:05.160 --> 0:12:07.840 go away for at least a couple of months and 0:12:07.960 --> 0:12:10.760 just let it all soak in and then come back 0:12:10.800 --> 0:12:12.560 and try to look at it with fresh eyes and 0:12:12.600 --> 0:12:15.720 don't be so defensive that you've got it right the 0:12:15.760 --> 0:12:20.960 first time you were there. It's a hard thing to do, 0:12:21.440 --> 0:12:24.800 and at the end of the day you still never know, Okay, 0:12:24.880 --> 0:12:27.839 this is the right thing to do. I'm positive of it. 0:12:28.920 --> 0:12:31.679 You know somebody else could, you know, don could look 0:12:31.720 --> 0:12:34.360 at it and go like you did for something we're 0:12:34.440 --> 0:12:37.280 just working on now, why don't you switch the nines? 0:12:38.960 --> 0:12:45.720 You know? And normally that's you get that conversation a 0:12:45.760 --> 0:12:47.720 lot when you when you come back to the clubhouse 0:12:47.760 --> 0:12:50.920 at nine, it's like, Okay, why why is this the 0:12:50.960 --> 0:12:53.439 front nine? And why is this the back? I guarantee 0:12:53.440 --> 0:12:55.679 you if you ask ten people, there's at least one 0:12:55.720 --> 0:12:57.160 of them is going to think it's better the other 0:12:57.200 --> 0:13:00.680 way around, and you also leave your self open to 0:13:00.720 --> 0:13:03.920 the client deciding that it should be the other way around, 0:13:04.240 --> 0:13:06.520 or changing it after the fact. I mean we both 0:13:06.559 --> 0:13:09.720 know courses that they've changed at some point in their lives. 0:13:10.080 --> 0:13:16.440 Augusta changed, you know, most of the time, changing ten 0:13:16.520 --> 0:13:18.959 or ten years into the game or twenty years into 0:13:18.960 --> 0:13:21.280 the game. That's like the kiss of death because now 0:13:21.360 --> 0:13:25.120 nobody can even remember what hole is what anymore. So 0:13:25.160 --> 0:13:27.280 that's something you really want to get right at the 0:13:27.320 --> 0:13:32.120 beginning and not change your mind on. You know, at 0:13:32.120 --> 0:13:35.280 the stage we're at with this project, we still haven't 0:13:35.320 --> 0:13:39.120 really shown anything to the client yet, so we're grinding 0:13:39.160 --> 0:13:42.120 hard on which way is better because because we want 0:13:42.200 --> 0:13:43.960 that to be the way we show it to the client, 0:13:44.000 --> 0:13:45.959 because we don't want them to change it. 0:13:46.080 --> 0:13:49.800 As the course I grew up of UNI playing change 0:13:49.840 --> 0:13:53.200 their routing. They flipped it, and I like still describe 0:13:53.200 --> 0:13:55.719 the holes in the old order because that's what I've 0:13:55.720 --> 0:13:57.959 played the course the most with. So it's like I'm 0:13:58.000 --> 0:14:00.160 talking to something. I'm like, oh ten, and they're like no, 0:14:00.280 --> 0:14:05.240 what what? It's all different order. It's confusing don being 0:14:06.440 --> 0:14:10.720 the artist that draws up plans. B Niblic had a 0:14:10.840 --> 0:14:17.200 question about the property and a course's character and is 0:14:17.240 --> 0:14:22.360 that determined by just sheerly the property, the routing or 0:14:22.440 --> 0:14:25.760 is it the building process that you see it or 0:14:25.840 --> 0:14:26.720 is it your drawings. 0:14:27.560 --> 0:14:30.280 I would say it's not the drawings. I just have 0:14:30.800 --> 0:14:35.520 the enviable job of being able to work on them. 0:14:36.080 --> 0:14:38.720 That's one of my favorite things to do. But you 0:14:38.720 --> 0:14:43.880 know that to try and answer that question is is difficult. 0:14:45.360 --> 0:14:48.720 But I think that, you know, that's the craft of 0:14:48.760 --> 0:14:52.240 the process, and that's what I've learned from Tom. You know, 0:14:52.320 --> 0:14:55.760 every property is different. You can have a property that 0:14:56.240 --> 0:15:02.000 is flat and constrained and really on first glance, doesn't 0:15:02.040 --> 0:15:04.320 lend itself to golf. You know, the two I've had 0:15:04.360 --> 0:15:07.280 the luxury of listening to Tom answer the questions and 0:15:07.400 --> 0:15:10.160 sort of formulate some basic ideas. And you know, the 0:15:10.160 --> 0:15:13.120 first thing that popped into my head was Garden City 0:15:13.200 --> 0:15:20.560 and Marion. You know, those by definition don't lend themselves 0:15:20.560 --> 0:15:24.480 to be great golf courses. They're odd, oddly shaped, there's 0:15:24.600 --> 0:15:29.360 roads crossing everywhere, There's there's some sort of structure and 0:15:29.760 --> 0:15:35.200 and things going on on all sides. There doesn't appear 0:15:35.240 --> 0:15:39.000 to be much great golf in there, but that's when 0:15:39.480 --> 0:15:42.600 you know, figuring out where the holes go to really 0:15:42.600 --> 0:15:45.200 get the most out of the property, whatever the property 0:15:45.280 --> 0:15:50.920 has to offer, that's where the real value and the 0:15:50.960 --> 0:15:54.280 real architecture is. And then if you're able to take 0:15:54.880 --> 0:15:58.160 the way the holes are configured and really make them 0:15:58.200 --> 0:16:01.320 interesting tea to green in the in the third dimension, 0:16:02.120 --> 0:16:05.640 greens and bunkers and contours and all of that kind 0:16:05.680 --> 0:16:11.280 of stuff, then you really have something. But because every 0:16:11.400 --> 0:16:16.480 property is different, we have the very good fortune of 0:16:16.720 --> 0:16:21.400 working with Tom. He has people that really have a 0:16:21.440 --> 0:16:26.200 lovely piece of ground, like the property in Bandon at 0:16:26.280 --> 0:16:29.680 Pacific Dunes. And Tom has a reputation of really being 0:16:29.680 --> 0:16:33.320 the guy to talk to open a dialogue with him 0:16:33.360 --> 0:16:35.800 if the land is great, because he knows how to 0:16:35.840 --> 0:16:39.760 find the most potential in the property. But you know, 0:16:39.800 --> 0:16:44.520 some of the things I've had the luxury and enjoyment 0:16:44.520 --> 0:16:48.240 of working on with Tom or properties that when you 0:16:48.280 --> 0:16:51.680 first look at him, don't offer much. Texas Tech University 0:16:51.720 --> 0:16:55.640 in Lubbock was on a rectangular piece of ground that 0:16:55.680 --> 0:16:59.400 had three feet of fall. I mean there was nothing there. 0:16:59.440 --> 0:17:01.800 I mean, you know, a blank canvas can be exciting, 0:17:01.840 --> 0:17:05.720 but it can be daunting too. So you know, from 0:17:05.760 --> 0:17:09.359 that all the way to Pacific Dunes, ta Eedy Cape, Kidnappers, 0:17:09.400 --> 0:17:13.040 where you have these just epic pieces of property that 0:17:13.440 --> 0:17:17.440 offer oceans of options. You know, to get that right, 0:17:17.600 --> 0:17:19.560 there's a lot of pressure, but there's also a lot 0:17:19.560 --> 0:17:22.320 of work involved in getting something really good out of 0:17:22.359 --> 0:17:26.720 something that doesn't have any of those advantages. And and 0:17:26.880 --> 0:17:29.600 like Tom was talking about earlier, you know, just the 0:17:29.680 --> 0:17:34.320 idea of returning nines, that's a constraint in the equation 0:17:34.920 --> 0:17:38.360 that limits you in what you can do, how far 0:17:38.480 --> 0:17:40.520 you can get away from the clubhouse before you have 0:17:40.560 --> 0:17:43.760 to turn around and come back. And listening to Tom 0:17:43.840 --> 0:17:49.160 talk about Pacific Dunes, you know, bally Neil and Eastern 0:17:49.200 --> 0:17:52.399 Colorado some of the best stuff that we've had a 0:17:52.480 --> 0:17:55.760 chance to work on. Tom went off the map to 0:17:55.800 --> 0:17:59.159 go get those extra holes, and that happened at Pacific Dunes, 0:17:59.200 --> 0:18:02.640 it happened at bally Neil, and you know, he has 0:18:03.880 --> 0:18:06.800 the ability to help a client understand that it's worth 0:18:07.480 --> 0:18:09.880 going and getting those holes so that they can be 0:18:09.960 --> 0:18:12.280 a part of the solution. I think one of the 0:18:12.320 --> 0:18:16.119 really cool things Tom mentioned about the crossword puzzle that 0:18:16.480 --> 0:18:20.200 popped into my head is Tom's right. The answers aren't 0:18:20.440 --> 0:18:22.520 posted in the paper the next day. And I kind 0:18:22.520 --> 0:18:25.080 of think of it as a Rubik's cube. You know, 0:18:25.160 --> 0:18:28.880 when you get a jumbled Rubik's cube, there is a solution, 0:18:29.320 --> 0:18:31.760 and there's an agreed upon solution, and you know, the 0:18:31.840 --> 0:18:34.360 question is how fast can you get there? But when 0:18:34.359 --> 0:18:39.720 you're out in golf holes, the solution is, like Tom said, 0:18:39.760 --> 0:18:42.440 a complete matter of opinion. You know, you don't have 0:18:42.480 --> 0:18:43.879 the red and the green and the white and the 0:18:43.920 --> 0:18:46.240 blue all figured out. Yay, you did it. 0:18:46.240 --> 0:18:48.080 It just doesn't work that way. And the other thing 0:18:48.160 --> 0:18:50.840 is it's it's free form. I mean a crossword puzzle. 0:18:50.920 --> 0:18:55.439 Somebody's determined the answers for you, and you don't go 0:18:55.680 --> 0:18:57.959 out of the box, and you don't go off the page. 0:18:58.359 --> 0:19:01.520 And with a golf course outing you can I mean 0:19:03.840 --> 0:19:06.800 ninety nine point nine percent of people, except that it's 0:19:06.800 --> 0:19:09.399 got to be eighteen holes. That would be a pretty 0:19:09.400 --> 0:19:11.840 tough convention to fight, although there's a couple of people 0:19:11.880 --> 0:19:16.639 trying to fight that convention now. But beyond that, there's 0:19:16.680 --> 0:19:19.280 not really any rules or limits to it. I mean, 0:19:19.760 --> 0:19:23.840 you know, one of the first one's boundaries we pushed against. 0:19:23.920 --> 0:19:26.520 Black Forest is the first one where I went off 0:19:26.560 --> 0:19:28.840 the page to find a couple holes. And that was 0:19:29.000 --> 0:19:31.640 when I worked for Pete Dye. He told me at 0:19:31.640 --> 0:19:35.720 the golf club in Columbus that he had like four 0:19:35.800 --> 0:19:38.720 hundred acre farm to work with, and he went back 0:19:38.720 --> 0:19:41.440 to the client and said, I got a really good routing, 0:19:41.480 --> 0:19:44.520 except I need the two acres over there off the 0:19:44.560 --> 0:19:47.680 property for one of the green sites. You know, you 0:19:47.760 --> 0:19:50.080 got to buy that other two acres. Is four hundred 0:19:50.119 --> 0:19:54.800 acres isn't enough, and you know, to be able to 0:19:54.880 --> 0:19:57.359 look outside, you know, I have the freedom to do it. 0:19:57.400 --> 0:19:59.719 Some clients would give you the big middle finger if 0:19:59.760 --> 0:20:02.800 you all them. You know they're four hundred acres isn't enough. 0:20:02.880 --> 0:20:04.960 But if you're trying to find the best solutions, sometimes 0:20:05.040 --> 0:20:07.679 that's what it takes. So when we were working on 0:20:07.760 --> 0:20:13.640 Black Forest a long time ago, I actually, you know, 0:20:14.480 --> 0:20:18.280 it was the client owned seven thousand acres of woods. 0:20:18.680 --> 0:20:20.200 So it gave me a topa map and there were 0:20:20.240 --> 0:20:24.040 no property lines or anything on it, and I did 0:20:24.040 --> 0:20:26.679 a routing and you know, you couldn't. You kind of 0:20:26.720 --> 0:20:29.000 had to do the routing mostly off the topo there. 0:20:29.040 --> 0:20:31.919 Because the woods were so thick you couldn't tell very 0:20:32.040 --> 0:20:34.840 much when you were walking through about house this hole 0:20:34.920 --> 0:20:38.120 going to look. I mean you really, you really had 0:20:38.119 --> 0:20:40.159 to kind of understand the map and just take a 0:20:40.240 --> 0:20:42.320 leap of faith. Okay, I know what this hole's doing, 0:20:42.800 --> 0:20:45.000 so when it gets cleared out, it's going to be okay. 0:20:46.000 --> 0:20:48.520 So i'd done a routing and they were starting to 0:20:48.560 --> 0:20:50.919 cut center lines of the holes so we could walk it. 0:20:51.000 --> 0:20:55.080 And the survey air comes by and I think Gil 0:20:55.160 --> 0:20:57.680 Hanson and I were out there. The surveyor comes by 0:20:57.720 --> 0:21:03.200 and goes, I think that sixth hole is is going 0:21:03.240 --> 0:21:06.960 across into the state property, going over the property line. 0:21:06.960 --> 0:21:11.080 And I said, what property line? You know, because there 0:21:11.119 --> 0:21:13.720 was nothing on my map that showed a property line. 0:21:13.720 --> 0:21:16.080 And I figured, well, the guy owns seven thousand acres, 0:21:16.320 --> 0:21:18.040 so he's given me something in the middle of it. 0:21:18.119 --> 0:21:22.840 But no, you know, there was there was a property line, 0:21:22.920 --> 0:21:25.800 it wasn't showing on the map. And sure enough I'd 0:21:25.840 --> 0:21:28.800 put one hole, you know, one hole going over by 0:21:28.840 --> 0:21:31.600 one hundred yards, and another hole with the tea on 0:21:31.720 --> 0:21:34.920 the state land coming back, and then another hole down 0:21:34.920 --> 0:21:37.920 at the bottom that was really close like really close 0:21:37.960 --> 0:21:41.320 to the property line. You know, the it was it 0:21:41.359 --> 0:21:43.840 was state forest and it wasn't marked, and it wasn't fenced. 0:21:43.880 --> 0:21:45.840 It was just out there in the middle of the woods. 0:21:46.280 --> 0:21:49.320 So we had to like change a couple holes on 0:21:49.359 --> 0:21:51.280 the fly, you know. We had to take the sixth 0:21:51.280 --> 0:21:55.359 and the seventh holes and like angle them, you know, 0:21:55.520 --> 0:21:59.080 like route them on more of a diagonal so you 0:21:59.080 --> 0:22:01.880 could fit them in and be sure of the where 0:22:01.880 --> 0:22:06.199 the property line was. And then the thirteenth hole, I 0:22:06.240 --> 0:22:08.840 had the surveyor come out and I was like, Okay, 0:22:08.880 --> 0:22:10.880 I don't want you to mark this thing and put 0:22:10.920 --> 0:22:13.240 a bunch of flags or anything. I just want you 0:22:13.280 --> 0:22:15.320 to show me this. You know, I got a tee 0:22:15.640 --> 0:22:17.800 over here somewhere. I just want you to show me 0:22:17.840 --> 0:22:19.760 where the line is so I don't go over it. 0:22:20.240 --> 0:22:22.080 And he showed me and that the back of that 0:22:22.119 --> 0:22:27.879 tea is about two feet on our property. But you know, 0:22:27.920 --> 0:22:29.359 I didn't want to, you know, I didn't want to 0:22:29.359 --> 0:22:31.399 build a fence and give it all away. I just 0:22:31.440 --> 0:22:33.240 wanted to work as close as I could to the 0:22:33.400 --> 0:22:35.480 edge without drawing any attention to it. 0:22:37.760 --> 0:22:41.639 So when you've got this property, you win a job 0:22:42.680 --> 0:22:45.919 or you're fighting for a job and you're you know, 0:22:45.960 --> 0:22:49.760 presenting a plan, like where how do you start the 0:22:49.800 --> 0:22:51.879 whole process of routing it? 0:22:52.000 --> 0:22:55.040 Off? Course, First of all, I hate that. I hate 0:22:55.080 --> 0:22:58.920 those jobs where they want four different architects to present 0:22:59.040 --> 0:23:04.080 a plan because this is the most important part of 0:23:04.119 --> 0:23:06.960 the job and the most time consuming part of it, 0:23:07.080 --> 0:23:09.320 or should be one of the most time consuming parts 0:23:09.320 --> 0:23:12.240 of it, and asking everybody to do it for free 0:23:12.280 --> 0:23:17.399 as kind of not right on top of that, you know, 0:23:17.520 --> 0:23:19.719 the people that are the people that are looking at 0:23:19.720 --> 0:23:22.080 the maps, a lot of them don't know what they're 0:23:22.080 --> 0:23:25.359