1 00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:03,480 Speaker 1: Heads up, y'all. Today's episode is about death. So if 2 00:00:03,480 --> 00:00:06,280 Speaker 1: that's not something you're interested in listening to right now, 3 00:00:06,600 --> 00:00:10,520 Speaker 1: just come back to this episode later on. 4 00:00:10,680 --> 00:00:11,280 Speaker 2: Theme is a. 5 00:00:11,200 --> 00:00:36,919 Speaker 1: Production of iHeartRadio and Fairweather Friends Media. In twenty twenty two, 6 00:00:37,120 --> 00:00:40,280 Speaker 1: rapper Markel Moreau, also known by his stage name Gunu, 7 00:00:40,640 --> 00:00:43,800 Speaker 1: was killed in Maryland. He was just twenty four years 8 00:00:43,840 --> 00:00:46,880 Speaker 1: old when he died, and his death was all over 9 00:00:47,000 --> 00:00:49,800 Speaker 1: the news, not just because he was a rapper who 10 00:00:49,880 --> 00:00:52,640 Speaker 1: was murdered, but because of what his family did with 11 00:00:52,720 --> 00:00:58,720 Speaker 1: his body after he died. Markel Morrow's loved Ones hosted 12 00:00:58,760 --> 00:01:01,319 Speaker 1: a viewing over the weekend at DC Nightclop and. 13 00:01:01,280 --> 00:01:04,840 Speaker 3: Now videos and pictures they're surfacing all over social media 14 00:01:04,959 --> 00:01:08,360 Speaker 3: of Marrow's body being prominently displayed and then it. 15 00:01:09,240 --> 00:01:12,679 Speaker 1: So much about this whole debacle was shitty. The fact 16 00:01:12,720 --> 00:01:15,640 Speaker 1: that Guna was killed, the fact that his family had 17 00:01:15,640 --> 00:01:18,920 Speaker 1: to grieve his death while subjected to intense public scrutiny, 18 00:01:19,200 --> 00:01:22,360 Speaker 1: the fact that all the Internet instigators were more concerned 19 00:01:22,360 --> 00:01:25,400 Speaker 1: with his deceased body being staged than his life being 20 00:01:25,440 --> 00:01:28,880 Speaker 1: so needlessly taken from him. It was yet another instance 21 00:01:28,959 --> 00:01:32,280 Speaker 1: of the circumstances around a young black man's death being 22 00:01:32,360 --> 00:01:34,399 Speaker 1: harshly and endlessly picked apart. 23 00:01:34,959 --> 00:01:37,560 Speaker 3: Yeah, I remember this. There are people commenting online that 24 00:01:37,640 --> 00:01:41,640 Speaker 3: presenting Markel's body that way at a club was too much. 25 00:01:42,400 --> 00:01:45,360 Speaker 1: Now, I know that when you're putting a loved one 26 00:01:45,400 --> 00:01:48,639 Speaker 1: to rest, there are often people in your ear trying 27 00:01:48,640 --> 00:01:50,960 Speaker 1: to tell you how to do that best. But to 28 00:01:51,040 --> 00:01:54,080 Speaker 1: have people who aren't in your family, don't live in 29 00:01:54,120 --> 00:01:57,360 Speaker 1: your estate, were nowhere in around or near the deceased 30 00:01:57,360 --> 00:02:00,400 Speaker 1: person's life, don't know you from Jack's squat, trying to 31 00:02:00,440 --> 00:02:03,680 Speaker 1: tell you what you should and shouldn't have done, that 32 00:02:03,760 --> 00:02:08,120 Speaker 1: seems tiring. It's clearly one not anyone's business, and two 33 00:02:08,440 --> 00:02:12,560 Speaker 1: what the family wanted. This is Markel's mother, Patrese Parker Moreau, 34 00:02:12,760 --> 00:02:14,720 Speaker 1: speaking to Fox five Washington DC. 35 00:02:15,880 --> 00:02:18,799 Speaker 4: It's something that I wanted to do. That's how I want. 36 00:02:18,840 --> 00:02:21,120 Speaker 4: Marchel wanted me to do it. That's how he wanted 37 00:02:21,160 --> 00:02:25,239 Speaker 4: to go out. He wanted to celebrate his life, turning 38 00:02:25,400 --> 00:02:28,440 Speaker 4: up having a party. He don't want people to be 39 00:02:28,520 --> 00:02:31,400 Speaker 4: sad and crying. He always wants people to be happy, 40 00:02:31,520 --> 00:02:32,120 Speaker 4: having fun. 41 00:02:33,280 --> 00:02:36,000 Speaker 3: I'm sure the family would have much rather not had 42 00:02:36,000 --> 00:02:39,919 Speaker 3: a memorial service at all and instead saw Markel get older, 43 00:02:40,160 --> 00:02:42,680 Speaker 3: make more music. I'm sure they didn't want to have 44 00:02:42,720 --> 00:02:44,320 Speaker 3: to grieve, right. 45 00:02:44,280 --> 00:02:46,919 Speaker 1: Who would want to go through this? But as much 46 00:02:46,960 --> 00:02:49,880 Speaker 1: as Americans like to be uptight about death and mourning, 47 00:02:50,400 --> 00:02:54,320 Speaker 1: post mortem photography has a deep history that began long 48 00:02:54,360 --> 00:02:58,160 Speaker 1: before the first negative Nancy logged onto a social media site. 49 00:02:58,280 --> 00:03:01,120 Speaker 1: Death portraiture is an art that's been around for a 50 00:03:01,280 --> 00:03:12,880 Speaker 1: long time, and it's still alive today. I'm Katie and 51 00:03:12,919 --> 00:03:18,440 Speaker 1: I'm Eves. Today's episode the Last Image, Katie. Had you 52 00:03:18,480 --> 00:03:20,639 Speaker 1: ever seen any funerary portraits before? 53 00:03:21,320 --> 00:03:25,920 Speaker 3: You know what? Not professional ones. But whenever me and 54 00:03:26,000 --> 00:03:28,560 Speaker 3: my grandmother were at a funeral, she would try to 55 00:03:28,560 --> 00:03:30,200 Speaker 3: make me take a picture of the person in the casket, 56 00:03:30,200 --> 00:03:31,840 Speaker 3: and I would always yell at her as they no. 57 00:03:32,760 --> 00:03:35,080 Speaker 3: She would always take pictures and you would be like 58 00:03:35,360 --> 00:03:38,560 Speaker 3: at her house looking through photo albums and then boom, 59 00:03:38,960 --> 00:03:41,600 Speaker 3: somebody casket and I'm like, girl, but maybe. 60 00:03:41,400 --> 00:03:44,560 Speaker 2: She was on some yeah. 61 00:03:45,000 --> 00:03:47,680 Speaker 1: Twenty first century American culture on the whole is one 62 00:03:47,680 --> 00:03:49,920 Speaker 1: that seems to not want to touch death with a 63 00:03:49,960 --> 00:03:53,400 Speaker 1: ten foot stick. There are exceptions, of course, but here 64 00:03:53,440 --> 00:03:57,200 Speaker 1: in the US, funerals are sad occasions and morning is 65 00:03:57,280 --> 00:04:01,240 Speaker 1: private and appropriate it's not socially acceptable to wear our 66 00:04:01,280 --> 00:04:03,800 Speaker 1: grief on our sleeves for too long, and there are 67 00:04:04,040 --> 00:04:08,320 Speaker 1: respectable and unrespectable ways to mourn our loved ones. But 68 00:04:08,440 --> 00:04:11,640 Speaker 1: you know, before all the anti aging creams and supplements, 69 00:04:12,040 --> 00:04:17,160 Speaker 1: death was everywhere you turned, high infant mortality rates, war disease. 70 00:04:17,720 --> 00:04:20,680 Speaker 1: I mean, I'm not saying we aren't still surrounded by death. 71 00:04:20,800 --> 00:04:23,480 Speaker 1: It's just easier to live longer today in the US 72 00:04:23,760 --> 00:04:27,080 Speaker 1: than it was in the mid eighteen hundreds, So death 73 00:04:27,160 --> 00:04:29,680 Speaker 1: wasn't as touchy of a subject, and portraits of the 74 00:04:29,760 --> 00:04:30,960 Speaker 1: dead were not uncommon. 75 00:04:31,440 --> 00:04:33,919 Speaker 3: You mean images of people after they had already died. 76 00:04:34,160 --> 00:04:37,200 Speaker 1: Yeah, when photography was still a young art form, a 77 00:04:37,200 --> 00:04:39,280 Speaker 1: lot of people never got the chance to have their 78 00:04:39,320 --> 00:04:42,960 Speaker 1: picture taken when they were alive, so their opportunity to 79 00:04:43,000 --> 00:04:46,600 Speaker 1: be photographed came in death. This gave the surviving family 80 00:04:46,640 --> 00:04:50,080 Speaker 1: members and friends a super special memento to hold on to, 81 00:04:50,640 --> 00:04:52,880 Speaker 1: a cherished reminder of their life. 82 00:04:53,279 --> 00:04:56,200 Speaker 3: Wow, we can take photos to our hearts content these days, 83 00:04:56,279 --> 00:04:58,599 Speaker 3: and those are our treasure to have when people pass away. 84 00:04:58,640 --> 00:05:00,680 Speaker 3: So I can only imagine what it was like to 85 00:05:00,680 --> 00:05:03,039 Speaker 3: have this new medium that can capture the image of 86 00:05:03,040 --> 00:05:04,640 Speaker 3: a loved one exactly as they were. 87 00:05:05,240 --> 00:05:08,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, and back in the nineteenth century, photos of the 88 00:05:08,080 --> 00:05:11,279 Speaker 1: day were put in family albums or displayed in the home. 89 00:05:11,760 --> 00:05:15,760 Speaker 1: By the twentieth century, photography was more accessible, death care 90 00:05:15,920 --> 00:05:19,080 Speaker 1: was more commercial, and post mortem photos weren't just for 91 00:05:19,240 --> 00:05:22,800 Speaker 1: anyone's eyes. But people still took photos of and with 92 00:05:23,040 --> 00:05:26,160 Speaker 1: dead people to honor their memory. It was less likely 93 00:05:26,200 --> 00:05:28,440 Speaker 1: that these photos would be taken in a home setting, 94 00:05:28,640 --> 00:05:32,800 Speaker 1: but photographers captured the deceased in their caskets alone or 95 00:05:32,920 --> 00:05:37,400 Speaker 1: surrounded by loved ones. And one such photographer was James Vanderz. 96 00:05:38,120 --> 00:05:39,479 Speaker 3: Oh yeah, I know, James. 97 00:05:39,800 --> 00:05:40,120 Speaker 2: Yeah. 98 00:05:40,200 --> 00:05:42,680 Speaker 1: You might have seen some of vander Z's photos before. 99 00:05:43,120 --> 00:05:46,360 Speaker 1: He created some really beautiful studio portraits of black New 100 00:05:46,440 --> 00:05:50,080 Speaker 1: Yorkers in the early nineteen hundreds. He also captured photographs 101 00:05:50,080 --> 00:05:52,360 Speaker 1: that documented black life in Harlem at the. 102 00:05:52,320 --> 00:05:54,560 Speaker 3: Time, and that time was the Harlem Renaissance. 103 00:05:54,680 --> 00:05:55,200 Speaker 2: Yes, ma'am. 104 00:05:55,400 --> 00:05:58,200 Speaker 1: He started his photography business in the early nineteen hundreds 105 00:05:58,200 --> 00:06:01,320 Speaker 1: in Harlem, but he really began to get attention after 106 00:06:01,360 --> 00:06:04,520 Speaker 1: he was featured in the nineteen sixty nine exhibition Harlem 107 00:06:04,560 --> 00:06:07,359 Speaker 1: On My Mind. He took portraits of noted artists like 108 00:06:07,400 --> 00:06:10,960 Speaker 1: County Cullen and Ruby d He photographed Marcus Garvey and 109 00:06:11,080 --> 00:06:13,160 Speaker 1: the Universal Negro Improvement Association. 110 00:06:13,839 --> 00:06:16,599 Speaker 3: Seems like his subjects had a little coin or notoriety. 111 00:06:16,960 --> 00:06:17,279 Speaker 5: Well. 112 00:06:17,320 --> 00:06:20,200 Speaker 1: While post mortem portraits were restricted to the upper class 113 00:06:20,200 --> 00:06:22,440 Speaker 1: back when they had to be painted, the emergence of 114 00:06:22,480 --> 00:06:25,200 Speaker 1: photography made them a lot more accessible. The development of 115 00:06:25,240 --> 00:06:28,760 Speaker 1: the technology was a boon to post mortem portraiture, and 116 00:06:28,960 --> 00:06:32,720 Speaker 1: people with money, not just money money, could now get portraits. 117 00:06:33,000 --> 00:06:35,240 Speaker 1: Some of those folks were the black folks that vander 118 00:06:35,320 --> 00:06:36,760 Speaker 1: z photographed in New York. 119 00:06:37,120 --> 00:06:37,720 Speaker 2: A lot of the. 120 00:06:37,600 --> 00:06:40,600 Speaker 1: Families that commissioned him would have been considered middle class 121 00:06:40,680 --> 00:06:44,479 Speaker 1: and weren't famous. And his work wasn't just about black life, 122 00:06:44,640 --> 00:06:47,880 Speaker 1: it was also about black death. Along with artists and 123 00:06:48,000 --> 00:06:52,480 Speaker 1: archivist Kamille Billips and poet Owen Dotson, James Vandersey created 124 00:06:52,560 --> 00:06:55,039 Speaker 1: the Harlem Book of the Dead. In it, his funerary 125 00:06:55,080 --> 00:06:59,120 Speaker 1: portraits were accompanied by Dotson's poems written from the dead's perspective, 126 00:06:59,520 --> 00:07:02,919 Speaker 1: and tech from interviews with Billips. A lot of the 127 00:07:02,960 --> 00:07:06,440 Speaker 1: older post mortem photographs we see are of Europeans and 128 00:07:06,520 --> 00:07:10,000 Speaker 1: white Americans, but this art form and mourning ritual is 129 00:07:10,040 --> 00:07:13,040 Speaker 1: also part of a black tradition when we get back 130 00:07:13,440 --> 00:07:17,000 Speaker 1: how The Harlem Book of the Dead memorialized James Vandersey's 131 00:07:17,000 --> 00:07:20,720 Speaker 1: work as a funerary photographer with a co sign from 132 00:07:20,720 --> 00:07:32,920 Speaker 1: Tony Morrison. The Harlem Book of the Dead marked the 133 00:07:33,000 --> 00:07:36,360 Speaker 1: first time the public saw all of James Vandersey's funerary 134 00:07:36,400 --> 00:07:40,280 Speaker 1: portraits compiled, but it wasn't published until nineteen seventy eight, 135 00:07:40,720 --> 00:07:45,160 Speaker 1: decades after he captured the photos, and millennia after its namesake, 136 00:07:45,280 --> 00:07:48,000 Speaker 1: the Egyptian Book of the Dead was used. The book 137 00:07:48,040 --> 00:07:51,679 Speaker 1: is divided into thematic sections, for instance, one about children, 138 00:07:51,880 --> 00:07:55,600 Speaker 1: one about soldiers, and one about women. The deceased pictured 139 00:07:55,600 --> 00:07:59,600 Speaker 1: in the photos are children and adults. Sometimes vanderz has 140 00:07:59,680 --> 00:08:02,920 Speaker 1: them whole props like a teddy bear or newspaper or flowers. 141 00:08:03,360 --> 00:08:05,960 Speaker 1: Stories of how some of the people pictured died are 142 00:08:06,000 --> 00:08:08,400 Speaker 1: included in the back of the book, And of course 143 00:08:08,480 --> 00:08:10,760 Speaker 1: there are the poems that accompany the black and white 144 00:08:10,760 --> 00:08:14,440 Speaker 1: photos in the book. Owen Dotson, a Black writer from Brooklyn, 145 00:08:14,720 --> 00:08:18,240 Speaker 1: used his poetry to highlight the inevitability and grim reality 146 00:08:18,280 --> 00:08:21,720 Speaker 1: of death, as well as the dignity and significance of 147 00:08:21,800 --> 00:08:25,000 Speaker 1: the lives that were lost. He says in one poem, 148 00:08:25,360 --> 00:08:30,280 Speaker 1: death always happens to somebody else, not the dead. Somebody friends, 149 00:08:30,520 --> 00:08:36,280 Speaker 1: somebody aunts, cousins, nephews, mothers, fathers, sisters, brothers, not the dead. 150 00:08:37,000 --> 00:08:39,400 Speaker 1: As Kamil Billips notes in the introduction to the book, 151 00:08:39,679 --> 00:08:44,000 Speaker 1: poetry and portraiture were old bedfellows with death, and vanderz 152 00:08:44,320 --> 00:08:46,760 Speaker 1: was well aware of the old tradition that he was 153 00:08:46,800 --> 00:08:49,320 Speaker 1: a part of. When Billips asked him if he knew 154 00:08:49,320 --> 00:08:52,400 Speaker 1: about the history of post mortem photography, he talked about 155 00:08:52,480 --> 00:08:55,720 Speaker 1: people who painted portraits of the dead and about funerary 156 00:08:55,760 --> 00:08:58,520 Speaker 1: photos he got from the West Indies that he copied 157 00:08:58,520 --> 00:08:59,880 Speaker 1: and translated to his style. 158 00:09:00,600 --> 00:09:02,240 Speaker 3: What do you mean by his style. 159 00:09:02,559 --> 00:09:06,080 Speaker 1: Well, there were other artists, including black Ones, who photographed 160 00:09:06,080 --> 00:09:09,920 Speaker 1: it dead, but Vanderzy's images were unique. The staging of 161 00:09:09,920 --> 00:09:12,559 Speaker 1: the bodies and the composition of the photos weren't too 162 00:09:12,600 --> 00:09:16,040 Speaker 1: different from other funerary photos. The deceased were pictures lying 163 00:09:16,040 --> 00:09:20,040 Speaker 1: in plush caskets, surrounded by flowers, sometimes stage to look 164 00:09:20,120 --> 00:09:23,560 Speaker 1: like they were sleeping, but Vandersy added a little extra 165 00:09:23,640 --> 00:09:27,359 Speaker 1: flavor onto his photos by manipulating them to include images 166 00:09:27,400 --> 00:09:30,240 Speaker 1: of angels of the deceased while they were living, of 167 00:09:30,240 --> 00:09:33,960 Speaker 1: scriptures and palms and other inserts that, according to Vandersey, 168 00:09:34,520 --> 00:09:36,640 Speaker 1: take away the gruesomeness of the picture. 169 00:09:37,240 --> 00:09:39,760 Speaker 3: Yeah, I noticed that looking at his photos, and I 170 00:09:39,800 --> 00:09:43,960 Speaker 3: can see his influence on like obituaries. Maybe not the 171 00:09:43,960 --> 00:09:47,520 Speaker 3: most modern obituaries now, but I feel like in the 172 00:09:47,559 --> 00:09:49,800 Speaker 3: early two thousands, even the nineties, there was always like 173 00:09:49,840 --> 00:09:52,920 Speaker 3: an angel and some flowers going on, and that's what 174 00:09:53,000 --> 00:09:55,400 Speaker 3: he was putting in his photos, or you know, the 175 00:09:55,440 --> 00:09:58,880 Speaker 3: picture of them while they're alive over them, which you know, 176 00:09:58,960 --> 00:10:02,440 Speaker 3: looking at it then, like the technology was a little different, 177 00:10:02,640 --> 00:10:05,560 Speaker 3: so it looks a little you know, cut out with 178 00:10:05,559 --> 00:10:06,680 Speaker 3: scissors and pasted. 179 00:10:06,880 --> 00:10:07,240 Speaker 2: It does. 180 00:10:07,600 --> 00:10:11,040 Speaker 3: But you can definitely see his influence in more modern context. 181 00:10:11,120 --> 00:10:13,200 Speaker 3: And I'm sure like all these people probably have no 182 00:10:13,240 --> 00:10:15,720 Speaker 3: idea who this man is, but it's interesting to see 183 00:10:15,720 --> 00:10:16,520 Speaker 3: that through line there. 184 00:10:16,920 --> 00:10:20,800 Speaker 1: Yeah, but one I will say, girl, obituary art has 185 00:10:20,840 --> 00:10:24,160 Speaker 1: not changed much since the early two thousands. Really, it 186 00:10:24,160 --> 00:10:26,840 Speaker 1: has truly not evolve that much. So it still is 187 00:10:26,960 --> 00:10:29,360 Speaker 1: kind of in that vein. But you know, Venderzy did 188 00:10:29,360 --> 00:10:31,679 Speaker 1: have to be skilled to do those photo manipulations, like 189 00:10:31,720 --> 00:10:33,640 Speaker 1: not everybody was doing that, and that is something that 190 00:10:33,679 --> 00:10:36,400 Speaker 1: set him apart. So not only was it that the 191 00:10:36,440 --> 00:10:38,320 Speaker 1: execution need to be on point for what it was 192 00:10:38,400 --> 00:10:40,600 Speaker 1: at the time, which the technology was definitely not as 193 00:10:40,640 --> 00:10:42,960 Speaker 1: advanced as it is today. But he had to have 194 00:10:42,960 --> 00:10:45,680 Speaker 1: a little creativity and originality to think to even do 195 00:10:45,800 --> 00:10:48,320 Speaker 1: these things. But I think part of that came from 196 00:10:48,400 --> 00:10:51,480 Speaker 1: his artistry and came from his own spirit of like 197 00:10:51,600 --> 00:10:54,320 Speaker 1: how he felt people should be portrayed in the kind 198 00:10:54,320 --> 00:10:57,679 Speaker 1: of like light that should be brought to these photos, 199 00:10:57,720 --> 00:11:00,760 Speaker 1: and the additional context that he wanted to act. And 200 00:11:01,440 --> 00:11:03,640 Speaker 1: I think it also shows the way that he used 201 00:11:03,679 --> 00:11:09,080 Speaker 1: the inserts. It shows this very black tradition of funerals 202 00:11:09,120 --> 00:11:13,040 Speaker 1: and dying not just being about sadness and mourning, but 203 00:11:13,080 --> 00:11:16,040 Speaker 1: also being about the faith, you know, where the angels 204 00:11:16,040 --> 00:11:19,240 Speaker 1: and the scripture came into it, about moving on from struggle, 205 00:11:19,320 --> 00:11:22,240 Speaker 1: you know, going back home, it being a homegoing and 206 00:11:22,760 --> 00:11:25,680 Speaker 1: that was really impued in his portraits by these inserts 207 00:11:25,720 --> 00:11:28,440 Speaker 1: that he used. Another thing I was thinking of, you know, 208 00:11:28,520 --> 00:11:31,440 Speaker 1: you said that you could see the influence of him. 209 00:11:31,480 --> 00:11:34,480 Speaker 1: I was thinking about those old Oln Mills photos. I 210 00:11:34,520 --> 00:11:37,440 Speaker 1: don't know if you remember them, but they were black 211 00:11:37,480 --> 00:11:41,240 Speaker 1: in the background and they had like a portrait of 212 00:11:41,280 --> 00:11:44,560 Speaker 1: the family in the front. Probably facing one side, like 213 00:11:44,600 --> 00:11:47,480 Speaker 1: maybe half profile, quarter turned or whatever you call that 214 00:11:47,840 --> 00:11:52,160 Speaker 1: set up, and then a large floating head in the background. 215 00:11:53,000 --> 00:11:56,600 Speaker 1: And if people haven't seen these photos, because the Harlem 216 00:11:56,640 --> 00:11:58,160 Speaker 1: Book of the Dead is kind of hard to get 217 00:11:58,160 --> 00:12:01,920 Speaker 1: hold of. Yeah, but so if people haven't seen these photos, 218 00:12:02,000 --> 00:12:04,839 Speaker 1: you know, kind of imagine that floating head and think 219 00:12:04,880 --> 00:12:07,520 Speaker 1: about that being angels instead in the background are like 220 00:12:07,559 --> 00:12:11,040 Speaker 1: pictures of soldiers in formation that he took from like 221 00:12:11,559 --> 00:12:15,000 Speaker 1: more documentary photography and scriptures. Those are the kind of 222 00:12:15,120 --> 00:12:18,000 Speaker 1: things and the kind of setup he had of what 223 00:12:18,080 --> 00:12:21,120 Speaker 1: he was doing for his portraiture. True artists, and though 224 00:12:21,200 --> 00:12:24,360 Speaker 1: Vanderzy had his own particular style of post mortum portraiture 225 00:12:24,679 --> 00:12:27,600 Speaker 1: that departed from the standard in many ways, it was 226 00:12:27,640 --> 00:12:30,640 Speaker 1: imbued with all the symbology of its roots and meaning. 227 00:12:31,000 --> 00:12:34,600 Speaker 1: The religious iconography, the church and funeral home settings, the 228 00:12:34,640 --> 00:12:38,640 Speaker 1: emotion and drama in the poetry, the veneration of ancestors, 229 00:12:39,080 --> 00:12:41,960 Speaker 1: the delicate treatment of loved one's bodies, the belief in 230 00:12:42,000 --> 00:12:45,680 Speaker 1: an afterlife. They all harken back to well worn black 231 00:12:45,760 --> 00:12:50,480 Speaker 1: rituals of mourning, perspectives on death, reckoning with grief and 232 00:12:50,600 --> 00:12:54,600 Speaker 1: community care. Vanderzy was already ninety one at the time 233 00:12:54,679 --> 00:12:57,720 Speaker 1: of this interview. But if it weren't for Billip's efforts 234 00:12:57,760 --> 00:13:00,560 Speaker 1: and putting the project together, we would have never got 235 00:13:00,559 --> 00:13:04,199 Speaker 1: the interview at all, let alone a book documenting Vanderzy's 236 00:13:04,240 --> 00:13:08,360 Speaker 1: funerary photography. Considering how prolific he was and how long 237 00:13:08,400 --> 00:13:11,439 Speaker 1: he worked, his death portraiture was but a footnote in 238 00:13:11,520 --> 00:13:14,720 Speaker 1: many people's survey of his body of work. Tony Morrison, 239 00:13:14,760 --> 00:13:16,760 Speaker 1: though knew what was up. The Harlem Book as a 240 00:13:16,800 --> 00:13:20,600 Speaker 1: Dead inspired her novels Jazz and Beloved. She says in 241 00:13:20,640 --> 00:13:23,199 Speaker 1: the forward to The Harlem Book of the Dead, the 242 00:13:23,320 --> 00:13:27,960 Speaker 1: narrative quality, the intimacy, the humanity of his photographs are stunning. 243 00:13:28,200 --> 00:13:31,080 Speaker 1: And the proof, if any is needed, is in this 244 00:13:31,160 --> 00:13:35,280 Speaker 1: collection of photographs devoted exclusively to the dead, about which 245 00:13:35,320 --> 00:13:38,840 Speaker 1: one can only say, how living are his portraits of 246 00:13:38,920 --> 00:13:39,320 Speaker 1: the dead. 247 00:13:40,200 --> 00:13:41,439 Speaker 3: I really liked her forward. 248 00:13:42,200 --> 00:13:44,079 Speaker 2: I was like, you tell me why. 249 00:13:44,360 --> 00:13:48,439 Speaker 3: It was just so good, Okay, But I did write 250 00:13:48,440 --> 00:13:50,520 Speaker 3: down part of what she said, so she was talking. 251 00:13:50,600 --> 00:13:53,960 Speaker 3: She started off the forward talking about how people are 252 00:13:53,960 --> 00:13:56,319 Speaker 3: like back in the day that was real portraits, which 253 00:13:56,320 --> 00:13:57,760 Speaker 3: I thought was so funny because I feel like we 254 00:13:57,760 --> 00:14:00,839 Speaker 3: would say that about that period of time. Everybody says 255 00:14:00,840 --> 00:14:02,360 Speaker 3: like back in the day, it was better, no matter 256 00:14:02,440 --> 00:14:05,720 Speaker 3: when the day was. So she's like talking about that sentiment, 257 00:14:05,800 --> 00:14:08,800 Speaker 3: like things are better back then, So she says, quote 258 00:14:09,160 --> 00:14:12,960 Speaker 3: part of the enthusiasm is not critical evaluation, but simple nostalgia, 259 00:14:13,160 --> 00:14:15,880 Speaker 3: a love affair with the past made more loving because 260 00:14:15,920 --> 00:14:18,079 Speaker 3: the beloved is no longer with us and able to 261 00:14:18,120 --> 00:14:20,640 Speaker 3: assert itself. And I just felt that was so true 262 00:14:20,680 --> 00:14:23,160 Speaker 3: because like when people talk about things that are gone, 263 00:14:23,640 --> 00:14:27,120 Speaker 3: whether they're like ideas or people, they're kind of like 264 00:14:27,200 --> 00:14:30,520 Speaker 3: frozen things. The person or the thing can't talk back, 265 00:14:31,000 --> 00:14:33,960 Speaker 3: It can't refute what you're saying about them, really, and 266 00:14:33,960 --> 00:14:35,920 Speaker 3: it made me think about just like pictures of the 267 00:14:35,960 --> 00:14:39,360 Speaker 3: dead generally, like you can do all this manipulation and 268 00:14:39,400 --> 00:14:41,800 Speaker 3: make them into an angel and have them, you know, 269 00:14:42,120 --> 00:14:45,520 Speaker 3: surrounded by flowers and put a newspaper in their hand 270 00:14:45,600 --> 00:14:47,680 Speaker 3: or try to fix their face so they're smiling, and 271 00:14:47,880 --> 00:14:51,040 Speaker 3: you can make them what you want them to be, 272 00:14:51,600 --> 00:14:55,280 Speaker 3: kind of like Markel's parents and family members, like putting 273 00:14:55,320 --> 00:14:58,040 Speaker 3: him in the club and like having his last hu rods, 274 00:14:58,080 --> 00:15:02,440 Speaker 3: Like you get to to manipulate your loved one for 275 00:15:02,520 --> 00:15:05,320 Speaker 3: the last time and then have like documentation of how 276 00:15:05,400 --> 00:15:07,880 Speaker 3: you wanted them to be presented. So that's what her 277 00:15:07,920 --> 00:15:09,920 Speaker 3: ford made me think of. So I feel like she was, 278 00:15:10,240 --> 00:15:12,920 Speaker 3: you know, working on multiple levels just about photography in general, 279 00:15:12,960 --> 00:15:16,520 Speaker 3: but specifically the subject of this photography. 280 00:15:17,560 --> 00:15:20,240 Speaker 1: And it's often not only just frozen in time, but 281 00:15:20,320 --> 00:15:24,200 Speaker 1: frozen in positive time because you know, so often people 282 00:15:24,320 --> 00:15:26,200 Speaker 1: like don't disrespect the name of the dead, like we 283 00:15:26,280 --> 00:15:29,080 Speaker 1: only want to talk about the good things about them. 284 00:15:29,120 --> 00:15:32,359 Speaker 1: So on top of the nostalgia, there's this like positivity 285 00:15:32,480 --> 00:15:36,760 Speaker 1: regurgitation that happens all over whatever their legacy was, which 286 00:15:36,800 --> 00:15:39,720 Speaker 1: is obviously very complex for a lot of people. 287 00:15:40,000 --> 00:15:40,680 Speaker 2: That shall. 288 00:15:42,240 --> 00:15:44,600 Speaker 1: When we get back from the break defending death rituals 289 00:15:44,600 --> 00:15:45,720 Speaker 1: in the social media. 290 00:15:45,520 --> 00:15:57,760 Speaker 5: Era, So do people still take postportum photographs? 291 00:15:58,000 --> 00:16:02,120 Speaker 1: Of course, professional photography, yes, but also plenty of people 292 00:16:02,120 --> 00:16:04,640 Speaker 1: who have a smartphone and can get a shot of 293 00:16:04,640 --> 00:16:07,600 Speaker 1: their deceased love one. Back in the day, the reach 294 00:16:07,720 --> 00:16:10,040 Speaker 1: was limited to how many people could see your photo 295 00:16:10,080 --> 00:16:12,560 Speaker 1: album or could get a physical print of the photo. 296 00:16:12,840 --> 00:16:16,040 Speaker 1: But now people are posting images and videos of the 297 00:16:16,080 --> 00:16:21,119 Speaker 1: dead on social media, namely Facebook, for hundreds thousands, potentially 298 00:16:21,320 --> 00:16:24,640 Speaker 1: millions to see. Just google this topic and you'll see 299 00:16:24,640 --> 00:16:28,720 Speaker 1: how controversial it is. People posting think pieces demanding others 300 00:16:28,800 --> 00:16:31,560 Speaker 1: stop sharing pictures of the dead on social media, people 301 00:16:31,600 --> 00:16:34,120 Speaker 1: asking folks on Kora if it's okay to post them, 302 00:16:34,360 --> 00:16:37,400 Speaker 1: and a lot of people are not okay with seeing 303 00:16:37,400 --> 00:16:40,800 Speaker 1: a picture of a deceased friend, family member, or even 304 00:16:40,840 --> 00:16:43,600 Speaker 1: stranger when they open up their social media app. 305 00:16:44,040 --> 00:16:46,680 Speaker 3: Yeah, I've seen this happen before, like people getting really 306 00:16:46,760 --> 00:16:51,040 Speaker 3: upset when someone posts an open casket of somebody. People 307 00:16:51,080 --> 00:16:53,400 Speaker 3: who don't like it seem to consider it offensive and 308 00:16:53,480 --> 00:16:56,120 Speaker 3: a violation of privacy, which I can see. 309 00:16:57,640 --> 00:17:00,840 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's fair, but some people take comfort in having 310 00:17:00,920 --> 00:17:04,040 Speaker 1: and sharing photos of deceased loved ones. It's how they 311 00:17:04,080 --> 00:17:06,760 Speaker 1: want to grieve. But that desire to mourn in the 312 00:17:06,800 --> 00:17:10,560 Speaker 1: way that feels right to them bumps up against others' judgment, 313 00:17:11,000 --> 00:17:14,240 Speaker 1: notions of appropriateness, morality, et cetera, et cetera. 314 00:17:14,400 --> 00:17:18,000 Speaker 3: And it can be hard to navigate managing ethics, feelings, opinions, 315 00:17:18,040 --> 00:17:20,920 Speaker 3: and grief when the Internet is involved. We're in time 316 00:17:20,960 --> 00:17:23,159 Speaker 3: when photos and videos of black people dying are spread 317 00:17:23,240 --> 00:17:25,040 Speaker 3: endlessly and analyzed to death. 318 00:17:25,240 --> 00:17:28,639 Speaker 1: Definitely, And to be honest, I did think the open 319 00:17:28,640 --> 00:17:31,600 Speaker 1: casket photos were kind of strange in the past, but 320 00:17:31,880 --> 00:17:34,280 Speaker 1: I've had to check my own bias for sure, because 321 00:17:34,440 --> 00:17:36,760 Speaker 1: it's really not a new practice, it's just set in 322 00:17:36,800 --> 00:17:39,840 Speaker 1: a different context. These images of the day can still 323 00:17:39,880 --> 00:17:43,640 Speaker 1: be portraits that tell stories of the living of our ancestors, 324 00:17:44,000 --> 00:17:47,080 Speaker 1: even if the framing is a little off or the 325 00:17:47,160 --> 00:17:49,800 Speaker 1: lighting is bad. I appreciate being able to see it 326 00:17:49,840 --> 00:17:53,240 Speaker 1: as the preserving of a morning practice that feels celebratory 327 00:17:53,320 --> 00:17:56,600 Speaker 1: and hopeful, like we don't want to release the loved 328 00:17:56,600 --> 00:17:58,719 Speaker 1: one's memory just because they transitioned. 329 00:17:58,760 --> 00:17:59,720 Speaker 2: We want to keep it alive. 330 00:18:00,320 --> 00:18:03,160 Speaker 1: Also, I'm thinking about how black folks are so good 331 00:18:03,160 --> 00:18:06,399 Speaker 1: at bringing humor and levity into dark circumstances. Do you 332 00:18:06,440 --> 00:18:09,560 Speaker 1: remember that shock wave of news that went around many 333 00:18:09,640 --> 00:18:12,800 Speaker 1: years ago about all the corpses that were being dressed 334 00:18:12,880 --> 00:18:16,800 Speaker 1: up and posed like they were alive thanks to extreme embalming. 335 00:18:17,400 --> 00:18:21,480 Speaker 3: No, I've never heard of this in my life, girl. 336 00:18:21,640 --> 00:18:24,600 Speaker 2: Yes, it was a whole thing. It was a moment, 337 00:18:24,760 --> 00:18:24,959 Speaker 2: you know. 338 00:18:25,359 --> 00:18:27,000 Speaker 1: It was a moment that didn't last too long, as 339 00:18:27,000 --> 00:18:29,159 Speaker 1: many things in the news cycle don't. But it was 340 00:18:29,480 --> 00:18:33,040 Speaker 1: people dressing their deceased loved ones up, putting them in 341 00:18:33,119 --> 00:18:37,560 Speaker 1: different scenes, basically like doing whole set design, being able 342 00:18:37,560 --> 00:18:39,760 Speaker 1: to prop them up in different ways. They would work 343 00:18:39,760 --> 00:18:41,800 Speaker 1: with the funeral home, I guess, to be able to 344 00:18:42,200 --> 00:18:46,360 Speaker 1: embalm them and place them in the way that felt right, Okaya. 345 00:18:46,840 --> 00:18:48,240 Speaker 3: I wonder if they were like we are on the 346 00:18:48,359 --> 00:18:51,560 Speaker 3: vanguard of a new way of displaying the dead. 347 00:18:51,920 --> 00:18:54,440 Speaker 1: You know, I don't know, but now that I'm thinking 348 00:18:54,480 --> 00:18:56,600 Speaker 1: about it, I'm wondering, like if back in the day 349 00:18:56,720 --> 00:19:01,399 Speaker 1: when people were staging their death portraits, they could only 350 00:19:01,520 --> 00:19:04,399 Speaker 1: pose the bodies in certain ways because they were dead, 351 00:19:04,520 --> 00:19:07,840 Speaker 1: so their bodies didn't move the same, so they had 352 00:19:07,880 --> 00:19:10,959 Speaker 1: to be sitting up in certain ways, or sometimes they 353 00:19:10,960 --> 00:19:12,960 Speaker 1: could stage them as lying down, as we talked about 354 00:19:12,960 --> 00:19:14,600 Speaker 1: in some of Anderzy's. 355 00:19:14,000 --> 00:19:14,800 Speaker 2: Work that he did. 356 00:19:14,840 --> 00:19:17,920 Speaker 1: That was an old known way of staging dead portraits. 357 00:19:18,240 --> 00:19:21,280 Speaker 1: So I'm wondering now if back then people would have 358 00:19:21,840 --> 00:19:23,600 Speaker 1: seen this and be like, wow, I wish we had 359 00:19:23,640 --> 00:19:26,480 Speaker 1: this kind of evolving and this kind of technology, because 360 00:19:26,480 --> 00:19:28,480 Speaker 1: they could have staged the portraits differently. They could have 361 00:19:28,520 --> 00:19:30,720 Speaker 1: had a little bit more pizazz and razzle dazzle in 362 00:19:30,760 --> 00:19:33,520 Speaker 1: their portraits back then, versus the more standard poses they 363 00:19:33,520 --> 00:19:33,879 Speaker 1: had to have. 364 00:19:34,359 --> 00:19:37,399 Speaker 3: Awesome I thinking, if you do someone in like a 365 00:19:37,520 --> 00:19:42,000 Speaker 3: pose that's like real extra, then how do you get 366 00:19:42,000 --> 00:19:43,480 Speaker 3: them in the casket after? 367 00:19:44,240 --> 00:19:45,560 Speaker 2: I don't know, that's a good question. 368 00:19:46,240 --> 00:19:48,520 Speaker 1: Maybe there's no casket at all, because that's how they 369 00:19:48,520 --> 00:19:51,919 Speaker 1: were staged for the funerals, so that was the memorial service, 370 00:19:52,040 --> 00:19:54,200 Speaker 1: so people would come to see the body in that way. 371 00:19:55,080 --> 00:19:56,200 Speaker 1: So I don't even know if they were put in 372 00:19:56,280 --> 00:19:59,720 Speaker 1: the caskets afterwards that people saw. I'm sure it wouldn't 373 00:19:59,720 --> 00:20:01,879 Speaker 1: be hard for the people who are handling the body 374 00:20:01,920 --> 00:20:04,120 Speaker 1: to put it in whatever casket they need to put 375 00:20:04,160 --> 00:20:07,680 Speaker 1: it in for burial or for cremation, because they know 376 00:20:07,720 --> 00:20:09,399 Speaker 1: how to work with bodies, and don't nobody need to 377 00:20:09,400 --> 00:20:13,960 Speaker 1: see it after that point? True, Yeah, it is a lot, 378 00:20:14,080 --> 00:20:15,679 Speaker 1: you know. I'm not saying it's not a lot. But 379 00:20:15,920 --> 00:20:18,560 Speaker 1: I don't know about you, But I associated this phenomenon 380 00:20:18,640 --> 00:20:21,680 Speaker 1: with black people, and I don't actually know if more 381 00:20:21,720 --> 00:20:24,080 Speaker 1: Black folks did it than any other race, but I 382 00:20:24,119 --> 00:20:27,919 Speaker 1: can say that many black folks did partake in the trend. 383 00:20:28,119 --> 00:20:28,680 Speaker 2: I guess. 384 00:20:29,200 --> 00:20:32,879 Speaker 1: A woman named Miriam Marie Burkebank was embalmed in posed, 385 00:20:32,880 --> 00:20:36,360 Speaker 1: sitting up, wearing shades and grasping the stem of a wineglass. 386 00:20:36,680 --> 00:20:38,320 Speaker 3: Okay, now that you say that, I feel like I 387 00:20:38,359 --> 00:20:40,640 Speaker 3: have seen that picture. Did she have like long hair? 388 00:20:40,760 --> 00:20:41,040 Speaker 3: Uh huh? 389 00:20:41,040 --> 00:20:42,240 Speaker 2: I think she did have long hair. 390 00:20:42,880 --> 00:20:45,280 Speaker 3: Yeah, I feel like she had on jeans or something. 391 00:20:45,600 --> 00:20:47,320 Speaker 1: I don't remember seeing the bottom of her because she 392 00:20:47,359 --> 00:20:48,200 Speaker 1: was sitting at a table. 393 00:20:48,880 --> 00:20:50,879 Speaker 3: In my mind, she's sitting with the wine glass and 394 00:20:50,920 --> 00:20:53,800 Speaker 3: she has her leg propped up. That's what I'm seeing. 395 00:20:53,840 --> 00:20:57,280 Speaker 1: Maybe she also had other alcohol around her around her 396 00:20:57,280 --> 00:21:00,600 Speaker 1: and there was an ash tray with like a pack 397 00:21:00,600 --> 00:21:02,680 Speaker 1: of cigarettes next to it because she loved a party. 398 00:21:03,160 --> 00:21:04,639 Speaker 3: Okay, I feel like I've seen this. Now that you 399 00:21:05,000 --> 00:21:07,399 Speaker 3: now that you describe the su try to. 400 00:21:07,400 --> 00:21:10,639 Speaker 2: Block it out right. I'm not gouldn't be mad at that. 401 00:21:11,359 --> 00:21:14,399 Speaker 1: And after eighteen year old Matthews was shot and killed, 402 00:21:14,680 --> 00:21:17,760 Speaker 1: his family had him propped up in a chair playing Xbox, 403 00:21:18,040 --> 00:21:22,200 Speaker 1: sitting next to some Doritos and soda. I mean, it's 404 00:21:22,200 --> 00:21:25,960 Speaker 1: so serious, but it's so unserious. A properly dramatic send 405 00:21:25,960 --> 00:21:28,680 Speaker 1: off that feels like an extension of the playfulness, joy 406 00:21:28,760 --> 00:21:32,840 Speaker 1: and spectacle that black folks bring to all our morning rituals. 407 00:21:33,240 --> 00:21:35,960 Speaker 3: Those Airbrush memorial t shirts come to mind. 408 00:21:36,040 --> 00:21:42,560 Speaker 1: Oh classic, but I know we're joking right now, but 409 00:21:42,760 --> 00:21:47,119 Speaker 1: there is a more somber and serious side to death portraiture. 410 00:21:47,520 --> 00:21:50,240 Speaker 1: I think that can really come to mind because you know, 411 00:21:50,320 --> 00:21:53,040 Speaker 1: we see so many death portraits that we don't choose 412 00:21:53,080 --> 00:21:56,359 Speaker 1: to see on a very regular basis, because when people 413 00:21:56,400 --> 00:21:59,679 Speaker 1: are shot in the United States and killed in the 414 00:21:59,720 --> 00:22:04,159 Speaker 1: States sanctioned killings than images of debt people can float 415 00:22:04,200 --> 00:22:07,800 Speaker 1: around on the Internet and we are non consensually exposed 416 00:22:07,840 --> 00:22:09,639 Speaker 1: to them in so many ways and consensually in so 417 00:22:09,680 --> 00:22:10,640 Speaker 1: many ways, and you watch. 418 00:22:10,480 --> 00:22:11,960 Speaker 2: Them over and over and over again. 419 00:22:12,320 --> 00:22:15,399 Speaker 1: But there is an instance that we all know, or 420 00:22:15,440 --> 00:22:17,280 Speaker 1: a lot of us know here in the United States, 421 00:22:17,760 --> 00:22:20,399 Speaker 1: where there was a death portrait that was share it 422 00:22:20,480 --> 00:22:25,080 Speaker 1: with everyone, and that was a consensual choice, and that 423 00:22:25,240 --> 00:22:29,600 Speaker 1: was Emmett Till's photograph of when he was in his casket. 424 00:22:30,040 --> 00:22:32,359 Speaker 3: I'm also thinking about how impactful it was for his 425 00:22:32,440 --> 00:22:35,080 Speaker 3: mother made me tell Bradley to share photos of his 426 00:22:35,160 --> 00:22:37,960 Speaker 3: body in his casket. She said, let the world see 427 00:22:38,000 --> 00:22:40,760 Speaker 3: what I've seen. She wanted folks to face reality, to 428 00:22:40,800 --> 00:22:42,840 Speaker 3: be as lit up as she was by the gruesome 429 00:22:42,880 --> 00:22:45,600 Speaker 3: image of her son's body. She was in mourning, but 430 00:22:45,680 --> 00:22:48,399 Speaker 3: she asked Jet photographer David Jackson to take photos of 431 00:22:48,440 --> 00:22:51,280 Speaker 3: the funeral. She chose to share it in publications because 432 00:22:51,280 --> 00:22:55,360 Speaker 3: she knew that photo can transmit grief into memorial empathy 433 00:22:55,680 --> 00:22:59,919 Speaker 3: and ultimately a movement. Emmett till his death. Portraiture is 434 00:23:00,040 --> 00:23:03,280 Speaker 3: definitely like a different vibe for sure, but it still 435 00:23:03,359 --> 00:23:07,199 Speaker 3: is storytelling and it really did launch the civil rights movement, 436 00:23:07,640 --> 00:23:13,040 Speaker 3: and it's interesting how death portraiture plays into it. And 437 00:23:13,080 --> 00:23:15,080 Speaker 3: like you said, there's so many images of black people 438 00:23:15,200 --> 00:23:17,640 Speaker 3: dying in a way that is not of our choosing 439 00:23:17,960 --> 00:23:21,000 Speaker 3: the portraits itself, Like obviously the way Immettel died was 440 00:23:21,040 --> 00:23:23,200 Speaker 3: not of his choosing, but even the portraits of black 441 00:23:23,240 --> 00:23:26,879 Speaker 3: people dying, I'm thinking, like of Mike Brown and how 442 00:23:26,880 --> 00:23:29,119 Speaker 3: they left him in the street like that, and you know, 443 00:23:29,119 --> 00:23:31,919 Speaker 3: people took pictures and then posted that and it's like, 444 00:23:32,359 --> 00:23:34,320 Speaker 3: you know, no one in his family chose for it 445 00:23:34,359 --> 00:23:36,520 Speaker 3: to be that way, to be shown that way, but 446 00:23:36,840 --> 00:23:39,760 Speaker 3: imtt Tell's mom Maymi did choose that, And like all 447 00:23:39,800 --> 00:23:42,080 Speaker 3: these other people are like choosing how they're like shown 448 00:23:42,160 --> 00:23:45,000 Speaker 3: in death. There's a dignity to it, whether you like 449 00:23:45,119 --> 00:23:47,199 Speaker 3: want to see the picture or not. I think that 450 00:23:47,520 --> 00:23:50,320 Speaker 3: the choice of it makes it like different. 451 00:23:50,680 --> 00:23:53,760 Speaker 1: I agree, Yeah, the agency that made me tell Bradley 452 00:23:53,880 --> 00:23:56,879 Speaker 1: had in it makes a really big difference. And that 453 00:23:57,040 --> 00:24:01,080 Speaker 1: made her a storyteller too, because those were creative decisions 454 00:24:01,080 --> 00:24:05,160 Speaker 1: that she made. But I think it was really impactful 455 00:24:05,240 --> 00:24:07,679 Speaker 1: for her to do that and to understand, like so 456 00:24:07,840 --> 00:24:11,320 Speaker 1: intrinsically seemingly what death portraiture could do, because as far 457 00:24:11,400 --> 00:24:13,800 Speaker 1: as I know, nobody told her to do that. So 458 00:24:13,840 --> 00:24:15,960 Speaker 1: it's like she already had this sense that she didn't 459 00:24:16,000 --> 00:24:18,560 Speaker 1: have to derive from anywhere outside of herself that death 460 00:24:18,600 --> 00:24:22,400 Speaker 1: portraiture meant something like the Art Forum meant something, because 461 00:24:22,480 --> 00:24:25,399 Speaker 1: people knew about his death already, so they already had 462 00:24:25,680 --> 00:24:29,160 Speaker 1: knowledge in writing and newspapers, and they already had knowledge 463 00:24:29,200 --> 00:24:32,280 Speaker 1: from just hearsaying what people are saying to each other, 464 00:24:32,840 --> 00:24:36,400 Speaker 1: news spreading that way. But she knew that the image 465 00:24:36,440 --> 00:24:38,960 Speaker 1: captured in that way was going to have a different 466 00:24:39,040 --> 00:24:41,520 Speaker 1: kind of impact. So it was an astute observation for 467 00:24:41,560 --> 00:24:44,560 Speaker 1: her to say, no, let's do this, And it was 468 00:24:44,640 --> 00:24:47,360 Speaker 1: also like a critical decision for the people who were 469 00:24:47,400 --> 00:24:50,160 Speaker 1: at JET to publish the photos as well and to say, 470 00:24:50,200 --> 00:24:50,920 Speaker 1: I'm going to do what. 471 00:24:50,840 --> 00:24:51,639 Speaker 2: She wants us to do. 472 00:24:51,680 --> 00:24:54,080 Speaker 1: So so it was a lot of coordination, you know, 473 00:24:54,119 --> 00:24:57,359 Speaker 1: and structure around it that made it even more of 474 00:24:57,400 --> 00:25:01,399 Speaker 1: a concerted storytelling effort on all of their parts. 475 00:25:01,600 --> 00:25:05,440 Speaker 3: Yeah, and Jet they knew it would sell those too. 476 00:25:05,600 --> 00:25:08,679 Speaker 3: They knew it was like a business decision, but not 477 00:25:08,680 --> 00:25:12,960 Speaker 3: saying that business decisions can't coincide with movement decisions, because 478 00:25:13,000 --> 00:25:14,879 Speaker 3: in that case it did. 479 00:25:17,280 --> 00:25:20,120 Speaker 1: So Really, why police the ways that other folks choose 480 00:25:20,160 --> 00:25:23,800 Speaker 1: to honor the dead like Markel Moreau's family. One thing 481 00:25:23,880 --> 00:25:27,040 Speaker 1: that so many of the people who ordered extreme embalming 482 00:25:27,240 --> 00:25:30,120 Speaker 1: said is that it's what their deceased loved one would 483 00:25:30,119 --> 00:25:34,480 Speaker 1: have won it. So then the elaborate staging, the theatricality 484 00:25:34,840 --> 00:25:39,360 Speaker 1: becomes a continuation of that person's story, their characteristics, their personality, 485 00:25:39,400 --> 00:25:42,160 Speaker 1: the things they love to do, they're all on display. 486 00:25:42,480 --> 00:25:44,040 Speaker 2: And Katie, I have to say that. 487 00:25:44,160 --> 00:25:47,040 Speaker 1: Even though in the past I was really a little 488 00:25:47,040 --> 00:25:50,760 Speaker 1: weirded out by people sharing the death portraits online, thinking 489 00:25:50,800 --> 00:25:54,320 Speaker 1: about James Vandersey's work and learning more about death portraiture 490 00:25:54,359 --> 00:25:57,040 Speaker 1: and the history of it, I've kind of shifted my 491 00:25:57,160 --> 00:26:00,320 Speaker 1: feelings on it, Like I know, this is like me 492 00:26:00,440 --> 00:26:03,439 Speaker 1: rewriting the narrative and away for myself and you know, 493 00:26:03,520 --> 00:26:05,679 Speaker 1: doing a little bit of a revisionist history and my 494 00:26:05,760 --> 00:26:06,399 Speaker 1: own history. 495 00:26:06,880 --> 00:26:09,120 Speaker 2: But I'm not mad at it. 496 00:26:09,880 --> 00:26:13,720 Speaker 3: I'm not I'm mad at it. Okay, I'm not mad 497 00:26:13,760 --> 00:26:16,520 Speaker 3: at it. Okay, I'm mad at it being on the 498 00:26:16,600 --> 00:26:22,080 Speaker 3: internet and me seeing it without my consent. But I think, 499 00:26:22,200 --> 00:26:23,959 Speaker 3: like how I said, I would be like yelling at 500 00:26:23,960 --> 00:26:25,520 Speaker 3: my grandma, like I don't want to take the picture. 501 00:26:25,600 --> 00:26:27,320 Speaker 3: I mean I want to take the picture either, but 502 00:26:27,440 --> 00:26:30,800 Speaker 3: like I do think it is important to have. But 503 00:26:31,240 --> 00:26:33,680 Speaker 3: just like how everything is just like so accessible now, 504 00:26:33,880 --> 00:26:36,800 Speaker 3: I truly do not need to see an open castt photo. 505 00:26:37,200 --> 00:26:38,560 Speaker 3: I think, ever, that's fair. 506 00:26:38,600 --> 00:26:41,600 Speaker 1: Everybody's comfort level is different, and I think that's a 507 00:26:41,640 --> 00:26:44,840 Speaker 1: difficult thing about it. I think that I may be 508 00:26:44,840 --> 00:26:48,399 Speaker 1: because you know, I was already into like maybe a 509 00:26:48,400 --> 00:26:50,679 Speaker 1: little bit more than an average person, into death planning 510 00:26:50,760 --> 00:26:54,320 Speaker 1: and death care, and think about it a lot for myself, 511 00:26:54,359 --> 00:26:57,119 Speaker 1: talk about wills with family, you know, I think about 512 00:26:57,240 --> 00:26:59,080 Speaker 1: the ways that I would want to be buried and 513 00:26:59,080 --> 00:27:01,119 Speaker 1: what I want to happen and I die. I think 514 00:27:01,280 --> 00:27:03,920 Speaker 1: I may be a person who confronts it a little 515 00:27:03,920 --> 00:27:05,920 Speaker 1: bit more than the average person in the United States. 516 00:27:05,960 --> 00:27:07,639 Speaker 1: I mean, I don't have the stats on that, but 517 00:27:08,160 --> 00:27:11,080 Speaker 1: I'm quite comfortable with it, and like recently when I've 518 00:27:11,080 --> 00:27:14,399 Speaker 1: had to plan a funeral, myself like was able to 519 00:27:14,440 --> 00:27:16,960 Speaker 1: handle it because I think of all of that work 520 00:27:16,960 --> 00:27:21,119 Speaker 1: that I had already done. So I guess there was 521 00:27:21,160 --> 00:27:23,720 Speaker 1: a part of me that had to question why the 522 00:27:23,760 --> 00:27:26,280 Speaker 1: whys around it for me, like why was I so 523 00:27:26,320 --> 00:27:28,640 Speaker 1: sensitive to this thing that we all have to deal with. 524 00:27:28,960 --> 00:27:30,760 Speaker 1: I must have to deal with it for myself. And 525 00:27:30,800 --> 00:27:33,520 Speaker 1: I do know that there's been a shifting of that 526 00:27:33,720 --> 00:27:36,960 Speaker 1: culture around death in the United States over time, where 527 00:27:36,960 --> 00:27:40,439 Speaker 1: we've been more afraid to deal with it that I 528 00:27:40,480 --> 00:27:43,199 Speaker 1: don't think is a holy positive thing, the way that 529 00:27:43,240 --> 00:27:45,680 Speaker 1: we create distance from it because you know, we live 530 00:27:45,800 --> 00:27:48,240 Speaker 1: to die essentially because we know it's coming at the 531 00:27:48,320 --> 00:27:48,960 Speaker 1: end of everything. 532 00:27:49,320 --> 00:27:50,720 Speaker 2: So for me, it was just. 533 00:27:50,640 --> 00:27:54,720 Speaker 1: Like, oh, I had to consider why was I against it? 534 00:27:55,160 --> 00:27:57,720 Speaker 1: And it wasn't a thing of consent for me because 535 00:27:57,840 --> 00:27:59,399 Speaker 1: for me, I know when I log on the internet, 536 00:27:59,400 --> 00:28:01,160 Speaker 1: I'm about to get some stuff I don't want to see. 537 00:28:01,680 --> 00:28:03,639 Speaker 1: I thought it was from a different place for me, 538 00:28:04,359 --> 00:28:08,000 Speaker 1: So I think that's part of why my feelings have 539 00:28:08,040 --> 00:28:10,520 Speaker 1: shifted on it. But that doesn't mean that I've lost 540 00:28:10,560 --> 00:28:13,640 Speaker 1: the nuance that like that feeling can be different for everyone, 541 00:28:13,880 --> 00:28:16,520 Speaker 1: and I don't necessarily prescribe that it's the right thing 542 00:28:16,600 --> 00:28:20,800 Speaker 1: to do to share death portraiture on or I don't. 543 00:28:20,600 --> 00:28:22,000 Speaker 2: Even know if I want to call it portrait because 544 00:28:22,000 --> 00:28:23,000 Speaker 2: that sounds really official. 545 00:28:23,040 --> 00:28:26,399 Speaker 1: But you know, open casket images on the internet, because 546 00:28:26,440 --> 00:28:29,480 Speaker 1: that's an element that didn't exist in the eighteen hundreds 547 00:28:29,560 --> 00:28:32,280 Speaker 1: or the early nineteen hundreds that we have to reckon 548 00:28:32,320 --> 00:28:36,119 Speaker 1: with now. It's just I appreciate now having a larger 549 00:28:36,200 --> 00:28:39,000 Speaker 1: lay of the land and thinking about they did this before, 550 00:28:39,680 --> 00:28:41,840 Speaker 1: and they were used to death and we still should be. 551 00:28:42,200 --> 00:28:45,440 Speaker 1: Death isn't the same, not the same magnitudes in the 552 00:28:45,480 --> 00:28:49,480 Speaker 1: same ways, but we talk about it every day and 553 00:28:49,560 --> 00:28:52,240 Speaker 1: it's still a big part of black media. Black death 554 00:28:52,320 --> 00:28:55,080 Speaker 1: is Yeah, I think it was a personal reckoning. 555 00:28:55,880 --> 00:28:58,400 Speaker 3: Well, I'm glad that you got that from doing this 556 00:28:58,440 --> 00:28:59,960 Speaker 3: research in this episode. 557 00:29:00,240 --> 00:29:00,440 Speaker 2: Hmm. 558 00:29:00,520 --> 00:29:08,320 Speaker 3: It's the growth for me girl, all right. Now, Now 559 00:29:08,400 --> 00:29:11,360 Speaker 3: it is time for roll credits, the segment where we 560 00:29:11,480 --> 00:29:15,040 Speaker 3: give credit to a person place thank idea that we 561 00:29:15,160 --> 00:29:18,040 Speaker 3: encountered during the week. Eves. You want to kick it. 562 00:29:18,000 --> 00:29:21,320 Speaker 1: Off, sure, and I'll just say something inspired by the episode. 563 00:29:21,360 --> 00:29:25,120 Speaker 1: I will say Camille Billips, because, as I mentioned in 564 00:29:25,160 --> 00:29:27,320 Speaker 1: the episode, the Harlem Book of the Dead wouldn't have 565 00:29:27,360 --> 00:29:29,680 Speaker 1: been possible without her. She's the one who organized it. 566 00:29:29,760 --> 00:29:31,080 Speaker 1: She was like, Hey, I think it would be a 567 00:29:31,120 --> 00:29:33,200 Speaker 1: good idea for you to put all of your death 568 00:29:33,240 --> 00:29:35,520 Speaker 1: portraiture in one book. You know, he had all of this, 569 00:29:35,720 --> 00:29:37,880 Speaker 1: these other photographs that we've seen, And she was like, 570 00:29:37,960 --> 00:29:39,680 Speaker 1: and I think, you know, you should work with Owen 571 00:29:39,720 --> 00:29:42,280 Speaker 1: Dotson and y'all can get together and y'all can put 572 00:29:42,320 --> 00:29:44,800 Speaker 1: poetry along with the photos. And this needs to be 573 00:29:44,840 --> 00:29:48,400 Speaker 1: shared with everyone. And it just makes me think about 574 00:29:48,440 --> 00:29:51,840 Speaker 1: all the projects that wouldn't have happened if people didn't 575 00:29:51,880 --> 00:29:54,280 Speaker 1: just say I have this feeling and it feels right, 576 00:29:54,440 --> 00:29:56,040 Speaker 1: let me just see if we can do it. And 577 00:29:56,080 --> 00:29:58,840 Speaker 1: it's also inspirational for me to know that, like the 578 00:29:59,000 --> 00:30:03,000 Speaker 1: long groll a parchment paper of ideas that I have 579 00:30:03,240 --> 00:30:06,760 Speaker 1: and I'm like, isn't it good idy or not that 580 00:30:06,840 --> 00:30:10,120 Speaker 1: like it could be so uh Yeah, I want to 581 00:30:10,120 --> 00:30:12,800 Speaker 1: give credit to Kameil Billips today her work. 582 00:30:13,280 --> 00:30:15,400 Speaker 3: Yeah, there's so many things that just wouldn't exist if 583 00:30:15,440 --> 00:30:17,080 Speaker 3: one person was like, Okay, I'm gonna go ahead and 584 00:30:17,080 --> 00:30:18,600 Speaker 3: do it. You know, or like I'm gonna get the 585 00:30:18,640 --> 00:30:21,080 Speaker 3: people together so we can do it. I would like 586 00:30:21,120 --> 00:30:25,000 Speaker 3: to give credit to printed out pictures also kind of 587 00:30:25,120 --> 00:30:28,560 Speaker 3: relate it to today's episode. But my nephew gave me 588 00:30:28,800 --> 00:30:32,880 Speaker 3: printed out pictures of himself for Valentine's Day and he 589 00:30:33,040 --> 00:30:35,240 Speaker 3: was posing and he was so cute, and I'm just like, 590 00:30:35,280 --> 00:30:37,640 Speaker 3: remember when we used to give each other pictures, Like 591 00:30:37,680 --> 00:30:39,360 Speaker 3: I have like so many pictures of you that you 592 00:30:39,400 --> 00:30:41,400 Speaker 3: like printed out and like wrote notes on the back 593 00:30:41,440 --> 00:30:42,000 Speaker 3: of me. 594 00:30:42,360 --> 00:30:44,320 Speaker 5: Yeah, like school. 595 00:30:44,080 --> 00:30:46,560 Speaker 3: Pictures are just like pictures we take around, you know, 596 00:30:47,000 --> 00:30:49,280 Speaker 3: and like we don't do that anymore. Like there's so many, 597 00:30:49,360 --> 00:30:51,920 Speaker 3: Like we have so many pictures, but like they're not 598 00:30:51,960 --> 00:30:54,920 Speaker 3: going to exist because the technology keeps changing and the 599 00:30:54,920 --> 00:30:57,400 Speaker 3: files get corrupted and you try to print them out 600 00:30:57,480 --> 00:30:59,760 Speaker 3: later and it's all blurry because it's on your iPhone too. 601 00:31:00,120 --> 00:31:03,520 Speaker 3: So I love a printed photograph and I would like 602 00:31:03,560 --> 00:31:06,480 Speaker 3: to give credit to that today. I love that. And 603 00:31:07,200 --> 00:31:11,920 Speaker 3: with that, we will see y'all next week. Bye hy bye, 604 00:31:12,360 --> 00:31:13,280 Speaker 3: bye bye bye. 605 00:31:15,720 --> 00:31:19,680 Speaker 1: On Theme is a production of iHeartRadio and Fairweather Friends Media. 606 00:31:20,240 --> 00:31:23,360 Speaker 1: This episode was written by Eves Jeffco and Katie Mitchell. 607 00:31:23,680 --> 00:31:27,200 Speaker 1: It was edited and produced by Tari Harrison. Follow us 608 00:31:27,200 --> 00:31:30,640 Speaker 1: on Instagram at on Themeshow. You can also send us 609 00:31:30,640 --> 00:31:35,000 Speaker 1: an email at hello at on Theme dot Show. Head 610 00:31:35,040 --> 00:31:36,680 Speaker 1: to on Theme dot Show to check out the show 611 00:31:36,680 --> 00:31:40,640 Speaker 1: notes for episodes. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the 612 00:31:40,640 --> 00:31:44,520 Speaker 1: iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you listen to your 613 00:31:44,560 --> 00:31:45,600 Speaker 1: favorite shows.