1 00:00:01,720 --> 00:00:05,279 Speaker 1: All Zone Media. 2 00:00:05,400 --> 00:00:06,760 Speaker 2: Welcome to ike it Happen here. 3 00:00:06,920 --> 00:00:08,920 Speaker 3: I'm your host, Mia Wong. I am happy to be 4 00:00:09,000 --> 00:00:12,280 Speaker 3: here once again with Garrison Davis and doctor Julius Serrano, 5 00:00:12,400 --> 00:00:14,920 Speaker 3: the author of, among many other works, a new edition 6 00:00:14,960 --> 00:00:18,319 Speaker 3: of Whipping Girl coming out in March, so. 7 00:00:19,720 --> 00:00:21,000 Speaker 2: Kind of pivoting a bit. 8 00:00:21,360 --> 00:00:25,599 Speaker 3: One of the really bleak aspects of being trans in 9 00:00:25,640 --> 00:00:29,600 Speaker 3: a hostile world is that we've we've effectively been forced 10 00:00:29,600 --> 00:00:32,040 Speaker 3: to become experts in the architects of her own extermination. 11 00:00:32,800 --> 00:00:35,120 Speaker 3: And I think that's a lot of what kind of 12 00:00:35,159 --> 00:00:38,519 Speaker 3: the new afterward to the upcoming twenty twenty four to 13 00:00:38,520 --> 00:00:41,360 Speaker 3: thirty edition of Whipping Girl is about. So, I guess 14 00:00:41,360 --> 00:00:44,040 Speaker 3: I wanted to ask, what do you see as the 15 00:00:44,080 --> 00:00:48,640 Speaker 3: biggest shifts in sort of the struggle for transliberation between 16 00:00:49,640 --> 00:00:52,360 Speaker 3: the end of the sort of Mitchfest like fighting over 17 00:00:52,440 --> 00:00:55,680 Speaker 3: Mitchfest era that you wrote like Dream, which you sort 18 00:00:55,680 --> 00:00:58,800 Speaker 3: of wrote the second uh, the forward, the preface of 19 00:00:58,840 --> 00:01:02,280 Speaker 3: the second edition, and then the stuff that's happening now 20 00:01:02,400 --> 00:01:04,399 Speaker 3: is the sort of three edition is coming out. 21 00:01:04,720 --> 00:01:10,600 Speaker 4: Sure, I think a huge aspect of transactivism from my 22 00:01:10,720 --> 00:01:13,840 Speaker 4: perspective of like first coming to trans communities in the nineties, 23 00:01:14,240 --> 00:01:20,080 Speaker 4: a lot of nineties and Zero's era transactivism was overcoming 24 00:01:20,880 --> 00:01:25,240 Speaker 4: basically people's ignorance, their lack of awareness about trans people 25 00:01:25,959 --> 00:01:29,479 Speaker 4: and so, and this is one of the things that 26 00:01:29,680 --> 00:01:31,560 Speaker 4: you know, Whipping Girl, for example, there are a lot 27 00:01:31,560 --> 00:01:35,440 Speaker 4: of bad ideas about trans people that had been circling, 28 00:01:35,680 --> 00:01:38,720 Speaker 4: lating for a long time, especially with the culmination of 29 00:01:38,800 --> 00:01:43,760 Speaker 4: Janis Raymond's book The Transsexual Empire the late nineteen seventies 30 00:01:43,800 --> 00:01:46,440 Speaker 4: nineteen seventy nine, I think, and that influenced a lot 31 00:01:46,480 --> 00:01:50,360 Speaker 4: of people, what say, places like Mishfest that had trans 32 00:01:50,360 --> 00:01:54,360 Speaker 4: women exclusion policies. And I felt like during the nineties 33 00:01:54,360 --> 00:01:57,800 Speaker 4: through the Zeros, we were constantly making gains that was 34 00:01:57,880 --> 00:02:00,880 Speaker 4: largely due to people learning more about it and then 35 00:02:00,960 --> 00:02:05,640 Speaker 4: recognizing basically shared goals, shared things in common. I think 36 00:02:05,680 --> 00:02:10,799 Speaker 4: that trans people are marginalized because of you know, mainstream 37 00:02:10,800 --> 00:02:15,240 Speaker 4: assumptions about sex, gender sexuality, and those assumptions also hurt 38 00:02:15,720 --> 00:02:19,960 Speaker 4: LGBTQIA plus people more broadly, they hurt you know, in 39 00:02:20,000 --> 00:02:23,359 Speaker 4: a sexist world, they hurt you know, CIS women, you know, 40 00:02:23,400 --> 00:02:26,560 Speaker 4: all women, all people who move through the world perceived 41 00:02:26,560 --> 00:02:28,600 Speaker 4: as female feminine. So we all have this kind of 42 00:02:28,600 --> 00:02:32,960 Speaker 4: shared thing that we're working towards, and I feel like 43 00:02:33,000 --> 00:02:35,040 Speaker 4: that was where a lot of the progress was happening. 44 00:02:35,440 --> 00:02:38,200 Speaker 4: And I think what really changed in the mid two 45 00:02:38,280 --> 00:02:44,840 Speaker 4: thousand tens, especially two year twenty fifteen, which is literally 46 00:02:45,120 --> 00:02:48,600 Speaker 4: the year after the so called tipping point Time magazine 47 00:02:48,600 --> 00:02:52,920 Speaker 4: declaring the transgender dipping point, was when it was the 48 00:02:52,960 --> 00:02:58,519 Speaker 4: beginning of what I would describe as organized anti transactivism, 49 00:02:59,200 --> 00:03:03,240 Speaker 4: where it wasn't just that people didn't like us or 50 00:03:03,280 --> 00:03:06,440 Speaker 4: they detested us, but it was where there was actual 51 00:03:06,480 --> 00:03:12,560 Speaker 4: coordination between different groups. In the afterward, I describe there's 52 00:03:12,800 --> 00:03:16,720 Speaker 4: the social conservatives and far right who have always been 53 00:03:17,000 --> 00:03:23,280 Speaker 4: anti LGBTQ plus who took an even more intense focus 54 00:03:23,360 --> 00:03:29,480 Speaker 4: on trans people. There were groups that at the time 55 00:03:29,480 --> 00:03:32,000 Speaker 4: that I wrote Whipping Girl, the term turf wasn't around, 56 00:03:32,040 --> 00:03:34,600 Speaker 4: of the term gender critical wasn't around. Now we would 57 00:03:34,600 --> 00:03:39,040 Speaker 4: call them gender critical or trans exclusionary feminists. They've become 58 00:03:39,520 --> 00:03:41,760 Speaker 4: kind of a part of that, and both those groups 59 00:03:41,960 --> 00:03:45,040 Speaker 4: working together in a lot of ways on policies. I 60 00:03:45,040 --> 00:03:48,080 Speaker 4: think one of the things that the average person might 61 00:03:48,120 --> 00:03:52,200 Speaker 4: not know if you're not really in kind of highly 62 00:03:52,240 --> 00:03:56,680 Speaker 4: aware of trans communities and issues is that probably behind 63 00:03:56,720 --> 00:04:01,160 Speaker 4: the scenes, the anti transparent movement as probably aid more 64 00:04:01,160 --> 00:04:04,080 Speaker 4: of an impact than any other group, and they are 65 00:04:04,200 --> 00:04:10,040 Speaker 4: very much like the anti vax parent movement, where it's 66 00:04:10,040 --> 00:04:14,720 Speaker 4: a lot of people who are from their standpoint, they're 67 00:04:14,760 --> 00:04:17,120 Speaker 4: just concerned about their children, they want what's best for 68 00:04:17,160 --> 00:04:21,680 Speaker 4: their children, but they actively seek out and often get 69 00:04:21,720 --> 00:04:27,240 Speaker 4: involved in you know, websites, social media forums and sometimes 70 00:04:27,279 --> 00:04:31,520 Speaker 4: actual activist campaigns that buy into a lot of ideas 71 00:04:31,800 --> 00:04:38,800 Speaker 4: that of children being indoctrinated into gender ideology or being 72 00:04:38,800 --> 00:04:42,360 Speaker 4: infected by social contagion, and there's all this pseudoscience that 73 00:04:43,240 --> 00:04:45,400 Speaker 4: grows out of that. So I would say that that 74 00:04:45,560 --> 00:04:48,359 Speaker 4: was the main difference, that there's this organized campaign, and 75 00:04:48,440 --> 00:04:50,800 Speaker 4: this campaign has just grown and grown and grown to 76 00:04:50,839 --> 00:04:55,960 Speaker 4: the point now where it's just this astoundingly large moral 77 00:04:56,000 --> 00:05:01,000 Speaker 4: panic that the types of things that like thirty percent 78 00:05:01,160 --> 00:05:04,880 Speaker 4: of people in our country believe about trans people is abhorrent. 79 00:05:05,200 --> 00:05:06,960 Speaker 4: But that's kind of how it played out. 80 00:05:07,839 --> 00:05:11,279 Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, there's there's been a lot of a 81 00:05:11,320 --> 00:05:15,840 Speaker 3: lot of very common, weird pseudoscience myths that sort of 82 00:05:15,920 --> 00:05:18,560 Speaker 3: came out of that. I wanted to talk a little 83 00:05:18,560 --> 00:05:24,440 Speaker 3: bit about quote unquote rapid onset gender dysphoria, because that's 84 00:05:24,480 --> 00:05:25,040 Speaker 3: been all. 85 00:05:24,920 --> 00:05:25,400 Speaker 2: Over the place. 86 00:05:25,440 --> 00:05:25,480 Speaker 4: Me. 87 00:05:25,560 --> 00:05:27,400 Speaker 3: There was like a New York Times article talking about 88 00:05:27,440 --> 00:05:31,159 Speaker 3: it like two weeks ago, and it's, I don't know, 89 00:05:31,240 --> 00:05:37,240 Speaker 3: really been a fiasco, especially given how unbelievably tenuous the 90 00:05:37,600 --> 00:05:40,479 Speaker 3: stuff they sort of faked or not as say fake, 91 00:05:40,600 --> 00:05:43,640 Speaker 3: like unbelievably tenuous to like quote unquote study they did 92 00:05:44,200 --> 00:05:45,080 Speaker 3: that got retracted. 93 00:05:45,320 --> 00:05:50,640 Speaker 4: Was Yeah, and this is something that I actually saw 94 00:05:50,720 --> 00:05:55,000 Speaker 4: developing firsthand and then did research on in twenty nineteen. 95 00:05:56,120 --> 00:05:59,320 Speaker 4: So let me frame this. I'll tell like my personal 96 00:06:00,120 --> 00:06:03,279 Speaker 4: a short version of my oral history of this. So 97 00:06:03,320 --> 00:06:06,039 Speaker 4: it was around twenty seventeen that I first heard the 98 00:06:06,080 --> 00:06:11,200 Speaker 4: idea of children, you know, becoming trans because of social contagion. 99 00:06:12,839 --> 00:06:14,599 Speaker 4: And it just seemed to come out of the blue. 100 00:06:14,960 --> 00:06:18,279 Speaker 4: And it's like, what, you know, it's gender identity is 101 00:06:18,279 --> 00:06:21,840 Speaker 4: not contagious. If it was, like, you know, trans people 102 00:06:21,839 --> 00:06:24,360 Speaker 4: would have infected way more than like the less than 103 00:06:24,360 --> 00:06:28,080 Speaker 4: one percent of us that actually exists. 104 00:06:28,240 --> 00:06:35,279 Speaker 5: Not a very effective contagious go yees rising like no, like. 105 00:06:35,680 --> 00:06:40,320 Speaker 4: Yes, yeah, exactly. It's like, once you start looking at it, 106 00:06:40,320 --> 00:06:42,599 Speaker 4: it seems kind of ridiculous. A lot of it was 107 00:06:42,640 --> 00:06:45,560 Speaker 4: because well, you know, you know, my kid was hanging 108 00:06:45,560 --> 00:06:49,720 Speaker 4: around a trans personer started watching trans videos on YouTube, 109 00:06:49,720 --> 00:06:52,760 Speaker 4: and now they're trans. It's like, yeah, well, maybe they 110 00:06:52,760 --> 00:06:55,720 Speaker 4: were hanging out with that trans friend and watching the 111 00:06:55,760 --> 00:06:59,360 Speaker 4: YouTube videos because they are trans and they just hadn't 112 00:06:59,360 --> 00:07:01,719 Speaker 4: come out. Yeah, or they're just they're still figuring it 113 00:07:01,760 --> 00:07:05,080 Speaker 4: out anyway. So in twenty eighteen is when the Lisa 114 00:07:05,080 --> 00:07:08,400 Speaker 4: Littmann paper on rapid on set gender dysphoria came out, 115 00:07:08,400 --> 00:07:11,000 Speaker 4: and I wrote this essay at the time talking about 116 00:07:11,040 --> 00:07:13,480 Speaker 4: all the things wrong with it, and then in twenty nineteen, 117 00:07:13,520 --> 00:07:15,720 Speaker 4: I'm like, where did these ideas come from? And I 118 00:07:15,720 --> 00:07:19,680 Speaker 4: should say that rapid onset gender dysphoria is basically transgender 119 00:07:19,720 --> 00:07:25,520 Speaker 4: social contagion wrapped up in a medical sounding diagnosis. Okay, 120 00:07:25,680 --> 00:07:30,240 Speaker 4: so if you read the initial descriptions of transgender social 121 00:07:30,240 --> 00:07:34,200 Speaker 4: contagion and the description of rapid onset gender dysphoria, they're 122 00:07:34,240 --> 00:07:36,840 Speaker 4: basically the same. It's that kids are infecting one another. 123 00:07:37,600 --> 00:07:40,200 Speaker 4: But the idea of rap it on set gender dysphoria 124 00:07:41,000 --> 00:07:45,120 Speaker 4: was meant to describe this quick infection of transness that 125 00:07:45,240 --> 00:07:50,960 Speaker 4: supposedly was happening. And so in twenty nineteen, I basically 126 00:07:51,040 --> 00:07:53,280 Speaker 4: did a deep dive. I'm not an investigative reporter, but 127 00:07:53,360 --> 00:07:55,520 Speaker 4: that's kind of what I did into like where the 128 00:07:55,600 --> 00:07:58,720 Speaker 4: origin of this was. And basically all of this kind 129 00:07:58,760 --> 00:08:02,960 Speaker 4: of came down to the website Fourth Wave Now, which 130 00:08:03,040 --> 00:08:07,000 Speaker 4: often worked in coordination with two other anti transparent websites. 131 00:08:07,280 --> 00:08:10,280 Speaker 4: So Fourth Wave Now is an anti transparent website, arguably 132 00:08:10,360 --> 00:08:14,320 Speaker 4: the very first one that came out, and a parent 133 00:08:14,480 --> 00:08:19,160 Speaker 4: posted the idea that her child was like being infected 134 00:08:19,240 --> 00:08:23,800 Speaker 4: by transgender social contagion, and it's almost definitely clear. Now 135 00:08:24,320 --> 00:08:26,760 Speaker 4: I will leave a little caveat even though I think 136 00:08:26,800 --> 00:08:30,560 Speaker 4: the evidence is pretty strong that that was Lisa Marchiano, 137 00:08:30,960 --> 00:08:34,920 Speaker 4: who's anti trans therapist who's very very involved in anti 138 00:08:34,960 --> 00:08:40,440 Speaker 4: transactivism right now, Okay, so and like all everything points 139 00:08:40,760 --> 00:08:44,679 Speaker 4: to that being her, and she also seems to have 140 00:08:45,559 --> 00:08:49,559 Speaker 4: in some capacity worked with Lisa Littman. So basically the 141 00:08:49,640 --> 00:08:52,400 Speaker 4: first paper about rapatan sat gender distory that came out 142 00:08:52,640 --> 00:08:55,760 Speaker 4: was not Lisa Littman's, it was actually Lisa Marchiano's, which 143 00:08:55,840 --> 00:08:58,760 Speaker 4: came out in twenty seventeen. So basically kind of grew 144 00:08:58,840 --> 00:09:02,880 Speaker 4: from these anti HRIS transparent websites. It really quickly within 145 00:09:03,040 --> 00:09:06,320 Speaker 4: six months. Not only was Lisa Littman doing her survey, 146 00:09:06,760 --> 00:09:09,199 Speaker 4: Lisa Littman, being someone who has no experience in trans 147 00:09:09,240 --> 00:09:13,120 Speaker 4: health ever before then just decides to go in and 148 00:09:13,360 --> 00:09:16,679 Speaker 4: only survey parents from an from three anti transparent websites, 149 00:09:17,559 --> 00:09:22,240 Speaker 4: and it gets taken very seriously just because the media 150 00:09:22,920 --> 00:09:25,920 Speaker 4: fan the flames. A lot of these groups were very 151 00:09:26,679 --> 00:09:30,200 Speaker 4: excited to have something that seemed to be a case 152 00:09:30,240 --> 00:09:33,160 Speaker 4: study on their side. The paper was heavily critiqued when 153 00:09:33,200 --> 00:09:36,120 Speaker 4: it came out. There are now and I described this 154 00:09:36,280 --> 00:09:39,800 Speaker 4: in an all nine SI have. It's free if you 155 00:09:39,960 --> 00:09:43,160 Speaker 4: google my name, and all the evidence against social contagion 156 00:09:43,559 --> 00:09:46,240 Speaker 4: it's in there. There are now ten papers that have 157 00:09:46,440 --> 00:09:49,480 Speaker 4: tested the idea of rap it on set gender dysphoria 158 00:09:49,880 --> 00:09:55,679 Speaker 4: and or social contagion and found evidence that contradicts the hypothesis. 159 00:09:56,360 --> 00:10:00,079 Speaker 4: So it's still being talked about that Pamela Paul, it 160 00:10:00,160 --> 00:10:02,400 Speaker 4: was an alped that looked like an article in the 161 00:10:02,440 --> 00:10:05,400 Speaker 4: New York Times. It's not the first time Pamela Paul 162 00:10:05,520 --> 00:10:08,120 Speaker 4: and or the New York Times has done this. They 163 00:10:08,240 --> 00:10:12,920 Speaker 4: seem to have a particular acts to grind against trans 164 00:10:13,040 --> 00:10:19,920 Speaker 4: people and putting out specious articles suggesting that gender firming care, 165 00:10:20,960 --> 00:10:25,319 Speaker 4: especially for trans use, is bad, when actually all the 166 00:10:25,400 --> 00:10:29,280 Speaker 4: evidence points to the opposite. So so yeah, that's a 167 00:10:29,400 --> 00:10:33,319 Speaker 4: brief discussion of rapid on set genders, for which I 168 00:10:33,360 --> 00:10:38,240 Speaker 4: think is the most popular of these kind of pseudoscientific ideas. 169 00:10:38,960 --> 00:10:41,599 Speaker 4: But there are definitely others that are like about like 170 00:10:41,760 --> 00:10:44,000 Speaker 4: four or five others that I could get into, and 171 00:10:44,080 --> 00:10:46,319 Speaker 4: I do get into in the Afterword and in some 172 00:10:46,480 --> 00:10:49,400 Speaker 4: of my other writings, but uh yeah. 173 00:10:49,320 --> 00:10:49,400 Speaker 5: And. 174 00:10:51,280 --> 00:10:56,720 Speaker 4: You know, I don't use the word pseudo scientific lightly. Basically, 175 00:10:57,360 --> 00:11:02,120 Speaker 4: there's like science, which is where different research groups try 176 00:11:02,160 --> 00:11:04,760 Speaker 4: to answer a particular question and if they all get 177 00:11:05,080 --> 00:11:07,920 Speaker 4: similar answers, then that becomes okay, well that seems to 178 00:11:07,960 --> 00:11:10,600 Speaker 4: be established. Now let's work from there and ask more 179 00:11:10,720 --> 00:11:14,920 Speaker 4: questions and do more studies. Junk science is when you 180 00:11:15,040 --> 00:11:20,480 Speaker 4: do kind of a crappy study that doesn't really interrogate 181 00:11:20,520 --> 00:11:25,360 Speaker 4: all the possibilities, that either doesn't use controls or you know, 182 00:11:25,480 --> 00:11:28,520 Speaker 4: only looks at you know, a bias sampling size or 183 00:11:29,240 --> 00:11:32,880 Speaker 4: a bias sample or small sample sizes and comes to 184 00:11:32,920 --> 00:11:35,280 Speaker 4: a conclusion that it wants to come to. That's junk science. 185 00:11:35,640 --> 00:11:39,120 Speaker 4: And then pseudoscience is when multiple independent groups all find 186 00:11:39,200 --> 00:11:42,560 Speaker 4: something different to what you're saying, but you keep touting 187 00:11:42,640 --> 00:11:45,880 Speaker 4: the thing you're saying is science. And that's definitely where 188 00:11:45,920 --> 00:11:49,079 Speaker 4: our GD is right now. Same thing with one of 189 00:11:49,160 --> 00:11:52,240 Speaker 4: these ideas that I talked about way back early and 190 00:11:52,240 --> 00:11:55,120 Speaker 4: Whipping Girl, and I've written other, you know, both academic 191 00:11:55,200 --> 00:11:59,400 Speaker 4: papers and online essays about this concept of autoginophilia, which 192 00:11:59,480 --> 00:12:02,160 Speaker 4: is this really old theory that just like it's kind 193 00:12:02,200 --> 00:12:04,960 Speaker 4: of like this zombie. It doesn't matter how many groups 194 00:12:05,240 --> 00:12:10,520 Speaker 4: find evidence to the contrary. It jibes with what basically 195 00:12:10,840 --> 00:12:17,920 Speaker 4: certain you know, gender disaffirming practitioners, practitioners and researchers and 196 00:12:18,040 --> 00:12:21,440 Speaker 4: anti transactivists. It jobs with what they want to say, 197 00:12:21,960 --> 00:12:24,920 Speaker 4: so it just kind of continues to be out there. 198 00:12:25,600 --> 00:12:28,200 Speaker 2: So yeah, yeah, I. 199 00:12:28,200 --> 00:12:30,400 Speaker 3: Mean something that Garrison we were talking about before, this 200 00:12:30,840 --> 00:12:33,640 Speaker 3: is the extent to which the extent to which the 201 00:12:33,960 --> 00:12:36,400 Speaker 3: rapid onset gender is for you study is almost exactly 202 00:12:36,480 --> 00:12:39,199 Speaker 3: the same study as the first anti VAC study. Like 203 00:12:39,400 --> 00:12:41,719 Speaker 3: it has almost exactly the same It's the same thing 204 00:12:41,800 --> 00:12:43,760 Speaker 3: where you find a group of people who think their 205 00:12:43,840 --> 00:12:45,880 Speaker 3: kid has autism because they got vaccinated, or you find 206 00:12:45,920 --> 00:12:47,480 Speaker 3: a group of people who think their kids are trans 207 00:12:47,640 --> 00:12:52,400 Speaker 3: because social contation or something, and then you ask them 208 00:12:52,440 --> 00:12:54,439 Speaker 3: about it, and then you report the results of the study, 209 00:12:54,480 --> 00:12:56,320 Speaker 3: and it's like, well, now and you report the results 210 00:12:56,320 --> 00:12:58,680 Speaker 3: of you asking the people the thing that they believe, 211 00:12:59,080 --> 00:13:01,599 Speaker 3: and now it's a study, and it's I don't know, 212 00:13:02,480 --> 00:13:04,880 Speaker 3: it drives me insane, they extent to which he is 213 00:13:04,960 --> 00:13:06,400 Speaker 3: literally exactly the same thing. 214 00:13:07,960 --> 00:13:09,959 Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean that was something. So I didn't know 215 00:13:10,080 --> 00:13:14,040 Speaker 4: this until h bomber Guy, who's a YouTuber who does 216 00:13:14,120 --> 00:13:18,319 Speaker 4: really good investigations and video essays, and I saw his 217 00:13:18,440 --> 00:13:21,079 Speaker 4: autism and so this is something that you know. I remember, 218 00:13:21,320 --> 00:13:23,679 Speaker 4: I'm old enough to remember the Wakefield paper being in 219 00:13:23,760 --> 00:13:26,839 Speaker 4: the news and then you've heard lots of people debunking it, 220 00:13:26,880 --> 00:13:30,959 Speaker 4: and then it's officially retracted and basically all you know, 221 00:13:31,679 --> 00:13:34,959 Speaker 4: the scientific field has settled that it's like vaccines do 222 00:13:35,080 --> 00:13:37,839 Speaker 4: not cause autism. A lot of that is just like 223 00:13:38,200 --> 00:13:41,240 Speaker 4: a coincidence of the time that you first start noticing 224 00:13:41,320 --> 00:13:44,520 Speaker 4: that children maybe autistic is like right around the time 225 00:13:44,679 --> 00:13:48,440 Speaker 4: after they've had vaccinations. But but yeah, it wasn't until 226 00:13:48,440 --> 00:13:51,679 Speaker 4: the h bomber Guy video that he talks about that 227 00:13:51,840 --> 00:13:55,960 Speaker 4: the Wakefield study is a study of parents, not the children. 228 00:13:56,280 --> 00:13:59,160 Speaker 4: A study of the parents, and the parents already had 229 00:13:59,720 --> 00:14:03,240 Speaker 4: were already suspicious of the vaccines, and so they said, oh, well, 230 00:14:03,520 --> 00:14:07,240 Speaker 4: it happened right after they had these vaccines, just like 231 00:14:07,600 --> 00:14:09,280 Speaker 4: rap it dont set genders for it happens. Oh, it 232 00:14:09,360 --> 00:14:13,400 Speaker 4: happened right after. You know, one of my child's peer, 233 00:14:13,640 --> 00:14:15,920 Speaker 4: their cheer peers came out as trans. It's like, yeah, 234 00:14:15,920 --> 00:14:18,839 Speaker 4: maybe they're connected. Maybe that's why they're good friends. You know, 235 00:14:18,960 --> 00:14:21,280 Speaker 4: most of my friends, you know, like when I go 236 00:14:21,400 --> 00:14:23,760 Speaker 4: out and stuff like that. You know, a huge chunk 237 00:14:23,840 --> 00:14:26,560 Speaker 4: of my friends, way higher than the average person, are 238 00:14:26,640 --> 00:14:30,840 Speaker 4: trans people. And it's not because any of us infected 239 00:14:30,880 --> 00:14:32,960 Speaker 4: each other. It's just that you have that thing in common. 240 00:14:33,360 --> 00:14:37,160 Speaker 4: You also, really importantly, when you're part of a stigmatized group, 241 00:14:37,480 --> 00:14:41,400 Speaker 4: being around other people who won't stigmatize you often because 242 00:14:41,440 --> 00:14:43,800 Speaker 4: they're part of that same group, that can be really 243 00:14:43,920 --> 00:14:45,440 Speaker 4: freeing and really supportive. 244 00:14:45,840 --> 00:14:49,120 Speaker 3: So yeah, yeah, Sally, we need to take another AD break, 245 00:14:49,880 --> 00:14:53,600 Speaker 3: but when we come back, there will be more. I 246 00:14:53,640 --> 00:14:56,000 Speaker 3: don't know, I'm really kind of blowing the ad pivots 247 00:14:56,000 --> 00:15:12,200 Speaker 3: on this one. I'm very sorry, and we are back, 248 00:15:12,560 --> 00:15:17,840 Speaker 3: so I guess speaking of moral panics, speaking of social contagions. 249 00:15:20,920 --> 00:15:24,000 Speaker 4: Yes, moral panics are always very socially contagious. 250 00:15:24,400 --> 00:15:28,800 Speaker 6: Yeah, it's really truly, really truly. They have described their 251 00:15:28,840 --> 00:15:32,240 Speaker 6: own ideology and they projected it out to everyone else. 252 00:15:33,200 --> 00:15:36,840 Speaker 6: Uh So, one of the things that you talk about, 253 00:15:36,880 --> 00:15:39,360 Speaker 6: both in the Afterward and in sext up is about 254 00:15:39,480 --> 00:15:43,640 Speaker 6: the relationship between stigma and contagion and how it's this powerful, 255 00:15:43,800 --> 00:15:47,680 Speaker 6: incredibly powerful force for moobilizing moral panics. Can you explain 256 00:15:47,840 --> 00:15:49,080 Speaker 6: sort of how that works? 257 00:15:50,080 --> 00:15:50,320 Speaker 3: Sure? 258 00:15:50,400 --> 00:15:53,360 Speaker 4: Yeah, so, and this was something that when I was 259 00:15:53,440 --> 00:15:56,280 Speaker 4: first working on sex Up, it wasn't kind of my idea. 260 00:15:56,440 --> 00:15:58,720 Speaker 4: I didn't think I was going to write about the 261 00:15:58,840 --> 00:16:02,120 Speaker 4: concept of stigma much, but it really ended up being 262 00:16:02,240 --> 00:16:04,320 Speaker 4: very central the more kind of research I did into it. 263 00:16:04,760 --> 00:16:06,920 Speaker 4: And so I think most of us are familiar with 264 00:16:07,000 --> 00:16:11,320 Speaker 4: the idea of stigma in terms of like feeling embarrassment 265 00:16:11,560 --> 00:16:14,800 Speaker 4: or being made to feel lesser than other people because 266 00:16:14,880 --> 00:16:18,600 Speaker 4: of some aspect of your person, right, And there is 267 00:16:18,720 --> 00:16:22,600 Speaker 4: that aspect of it that's often called like felt stigma. 268 00:16:23,400 --> 00:16:27,560 Speaker 4: But then there's the way that other people view stigma, right, 269 00:16:28,080 --> 00:16:31,080 Speaker 4: And so you know, people weren't necessarily stigmatized in that 270 00:16:31,160 --> 00:16:34,960 Speaker 4: way themselves. They might view people who are stigmatized in 271 00:16:35,080 --> 00:16:41,600 Speaker 4: particular ways. And one aspect of stigma that I learned 272 00:16:41,600 --> 00:16:46,840 Speaker 4: a lot of this from psychologists, I think it's Paul Rosen, 273 00:16:47,120 --> 00:16:50,880 Speaker 4: I know the last name is Rosin, and also Carol 274 00:16:51,800 --> 00:16:54,640 Speaker 4: Nemarov and they both worked together and they had other 275 00:16:54,720 --> 00:16:56,760 Speaker 4: colleagues who worked on this. But a lot of this 276 00:16:56,920 --> 00:17:00,840 Speaker 4: comes from this really unconscious idea of contain agent that 277 00:17:01,200 --> 00:17:04,600 Speaker 4: seems to be it's like pan cultural. It's just kind 278 00:17:04,640 --> 00:17:06,280 Speaker 4: of a way that people tend to view the world 279 00:17:07,000 --> 00:17:08,560 Speaker 4: kind of like a lot of people and a lot 280 00:17:08,600 --> 00:17:12,920 Speaker 4: of cultures have essentialist views. Contagion is sort of along 281 00:17:12,960 --> 00:17:16,119 Speaker 4: those lines. It's often described as a type of magical thinking. 282 00:17:16,720 --> 00:17:20,120 Speaker 4: And the idea is if something in your mind has 283 00:17:20,240 --> 00:17:23,560 Speaker 4: this contagion, if you get too close to it or 284 00:17:23,600 --> 00:17:27,800 Speaker 4: you interact with it, it can like permanently corrupt or 285 00:17:27,880 --> 00:17:32,000 Speaker 4: taint you. And so it has this kind of contagious 286 00:17:32,840 --> 00:17:36,640 Speaker 4: like property in people's minds, and so people often view 287 00:17:36,680 --> 00:17:40,359 Speaker 4: groups who are stigmatized, especially groups that are highly stigmatized, 288 00:17:41,000 --> 00:17:46,240 Speaker 4: as essentially contagious, where that stigma that they have could 289 00:17:46,320 --> 00:17:49,080 Speaker 4: rub off on you if you get too close to them. 290 00:17:49,640 --> 00:17:52,840 Speaker 4: And so this happens like when I was really young, 291 00:17:53,200 --> 00:17:55,320 Speaker 4: the idea of like if you were friends with the 292 00:17:55,400 --> 00:17:58,320 Speaker 4: trans person, a lot of times people or even someone 293 00:17:58,359 --> 00:18:01,040 Speaker 4: who is gay back then people be like, oh, so 294 00:18:01,160 --> 00:18:03,520 Speaker 4: what are you? You must be gay too, right, It's 295 00:18:03,520 --> 00:18:06,600 Speaker 4: almost as if that stigma would then like kind of 296 00:18:06,760 --> 00:18:10,639 Speaker 4: migrate to you. And that's a lot of why stigmatized 297 00:18:10,640 --> 00:18:15,639 Speaker 4: groups face a lot of ostracization in society, and so 298 00:18:16,080 --> 00:18:19,080 Speaker 4: so this idea of contagion has been around. I think 299 00:18:19,119 --> 00:18:22,280 Speaker 4: groups who are lesser stigmatized, one of the ways that 300 00:18:22,359 --> 00:18:24,960 Speaker 4: that plays out is they're viewed is less contagious. So 301 00:18:25,840 --> 00:18:27,600 Speaker 4: you know, when I was really young, the idea of 302 00:18:27,760 --> 00:18:29,480 Speaker 4: if you had a trans person in your life, people 303 00:18:29,480 --> 00:18:32,960 Speaker 4: would really question you. Whereas by the time I came out, 304 00:18:33,240 --> 00:18:35,000 Speaker 4: you could have a trans friend and that would be fine. 305 00:18:35,040 --> 00:18:38,600 Speaker 4: It wouldn't necessarily be contagious, unless, of course, you were 306 00:18:38,640 --> 00:18:41,359 Speaker 4: interested in them, and then that stigma would If you 307 00:18:41,440 --> 00:18:44,639 Speaker 4: were like attracted to them, then there's that stigma. And 308 00:18:44,760 --> 00:18:47,320 Speaker 4: I think that stigma plays a lot into kind of 309 00:18:47,400 --> 00:18:49,960 Speaker 4: dynamics of and I write about this and sex stuff 310 00:18:50,000 --> 00:18:52,639 Speaker 4: that the whole idea of like fetishes and chasers and 311 00:18:52,720 --> 00:18:56,040 Speaker 4: all that. That's basically all this stigma that contagent stuff 312 00:18:56,400 --> 00:19:03,240 Speaker 4: playing out in different ways anyway, So I also think that, 313 00:19:03,440 --> 00:19:05,520 Speaker 4: and I write about and sext up, I think people 314 00:19:05,760 --> 00:19:10,960 Speaker 4: view sex and stigma as really closely intertwined, such that 315 00:19:11,560 --> 00:19:15,640 Speaker 4: I think people view the average person views heterosexual sex 316 00:19:15,680 --> 00:19:18,480 Speaker 4: as a stigma contamination act where the male is the 317 00:19:18,520 --> 00:19:24,280 Speaker 4: corrupting force and it's the woman who is corrupted by sex, 318 00:19:24,359 --> 00:19:27,439 Speaker 4: which is why you know virgins are pure. But then 319 00:19:27,800 --> 00:19:30,720 Speaker 4: once a woman has sex, she's like, you know, she's 320 00:19:30,840 --> 00:19:35,000 Speaker 4: become contaminated or tainted, and she has a lot of sex, 321 00:19:35,080 --> 00:19:38,200 Speaker 4: then people view her as like ruined, right, So that 322 00:19:38,320 --> 00:19:42,520 Speaker 4: idea is bell in there, And I think this combination 323 00:19:43,200 --> 00:19:47,040 Speaker 4: of viewing sex and stigma is kind of intertwined leads 324 00:19:47,200 --> 00:19:52,520 Speaker 4: to the sexual predator, the sexual predator stereotype that we're 325 00:19:52,560 --> 00:19:55,480 Speaker 4: seeing play out in really strong ways with trans people 326 00:19:55,560 --> 00:19:58,879 Speaker 4: right now. But actually, if you look throughout history, like 327 00:19:58,960 --> 00:20:02,480 Speaker 4: a lot of marginalized groups like deal in different ways 328 00:20:02,800 --> 00:20:04,280 Speaker 4: with the sexual predator trope. 329 00:20:05,080 --> 00:20:05,359 Speaker 2: And so. 330 00:20:07,080 --> 00:20:11,040 Speaker 4: I think this really clearly plays out with the kind 331 00:20:11,080 --> 00:20:13,520 Speaker 4: of what I call the Groomer explosion that started in 332 00:20:13,600 --> 00:20:17,440 Speaker 4: twenty twenty two, where you know, people were accusing trans 333 00:20:17,520 --> 00:20:19,960 Speaker 4: people being groomers before then, but it really exploded in 334 00:20:20,000 --> 00:20:22,400 Speaker 4: twenty twenty two. And if you listen to what people 335 00:20:22,440 --> 00:20:26,359 Speaker 4: are saying, that they're using the word groomer, which sounds 336 00:20:26,400 --> 00:20:28,960 Speaker 4: like a sexual predator thing, like there's a real thing 337 00:20:29,040 --> 00:20:34,160 Speaker 4: of grooming children that sexual abusers do, but they're using 338 00:20:34,200 --> 00:20:36,520 Speaker 4: it against trans people in a way that has nothing 339 00:20:36,600 --> 00:20:39,760 Speaker 4: to do with that. But what they're talking about is corrupting, 340 00:20:40,160 --> 00:20:42,520 Speaker 4: you know, so their children who are presumed to be 341 00:20:42,600 --> 00:20:47,480 Speaker 4: sisgender and who often I think this is why a 342 00:20:47,520 --> 00:20:52,200 Speaker 4: lot of these anti trans discourses continue to paint like 343 00:20:52,320 --> 00:20:56,040 Speaker 4: trans children as being girls, right like, because then it 344 00:20:56,160 --> 00:20:58,800 Speaker 4: kind of plays into these feelings of like, you know, 345 00:20:59,320 --> 00:21:03,920 Speaker 4: transgender people are the adult men corrupting young girls. It 346 00:21:04,000 --> 00:21:07,840 Speaker 4: plays into a lot of people's view like messed up, 347 00:21:08,240 --> 00:21:14,680 Speaker 4: messed up heteronormative views of sex and fears of you know, 348 00:21:14,960 --> 00:21:18,359 Speaker 4: sexual abuse, child abuse being a very real thing, but 349 00:21:18,480 --> 00:21:23,600 Speaker 4: people greatly misinterpret it so that the people who are 350 00:21:23,680 --> 00:21:29,359 Speaker 4: the usual perpetrators, which are usually you know, by and large, 351 00:21:29,440 --> 00:21:34,359 Speaker 4: straight men who are like adults who are close or 352 00:21:34,480 --> 00:21:38,119 Speaker 4: sometimes even family members of the child in question. But 353 00:21:38,359 --> 00:21:41,520 Speaker 4: like when they say grooming, they just mean corrupting or contaminating, 354 00:21:42,080 --> 00:21:45,159 Speaker 4: And I think that both grooming and social contagion. I 355 00:21:45,240 --> 00:21:49,000 Speaker 4: think both of these basically play off of this stigma 356 00:21:49,080 --> 00:21:53,080 Speaker 4: contamination idea. Right, the kids are pure, but then transgenders 357 00:21:53,160 --> 00:21:55,760 Speaker 4: like a type of coodies that if one kid becomes 358 00:21:55,840 --> 00:21:58,680 Speaker 4: trans then they spread it to the other kids. And 359 00:21:58,800 --> 00:22:02,520 Speaker 4: so yeah, so I feel like it plays a really 360 00:22:02,560 --> 00:22:05,879 Speaker 4: big role not only moral panics, which amost all moral 361 00:22:05,920 --> 00:22:09,320 Speaker 4: panics are. There's some kind of corrupting force that is 362 00:22:09,440 --> 00:22:15,800 Speaker 4: often attacking otherwise pure and innocent children. Sometimes it's technology, right, 363 00:22:16,200 --> 00:22:17,840 Speaker 4: and so people will be like, oh, we have to 364 00:22:17,920 --> 00:22:21,600 Speaker 4: ban you know, social media apps, you know, because it's 365 00:22:21,840 --> 00:22:24,359 Speaker 4: hurting the children. Or it could be transgender people who 366 00:22:24,440 --> 00:22:27,120 Speaker 4: are the things we need to ban because they're corrupting 367 00:22:27,160 --> 00:22:30,760 Speaker 4: the children. But I definitely think that both these ideas 368 00:22:30,760 --> 00:22:35,119 Speaker 4: of stigma and contagion play a big role in the 369 00:22:35,200 --> 00:22:38,440 Speaker 4: way in which moral panics, why they resonate with a 370 00:22:38,480 --> 00:22:41,720 Speaker 4: lot of people, even though they don't make any rational 371 00:22:41,880 --> 00:22:47,280 Speaker 4: sense if you just think about them kind of from 372 00:22:47,320 --> 00:22:50,440 Speaker 4: a very realistic, practical point of view. 373 00:22:50,960 --> 00:22:52,920 Speaker 2: And we have to go to ads, but really back 374 00:22:53,040 --> 00:23:05,360 Speaker 2: in a second, and we're back. 375 00:23:06,359 --> 00:23:09,359 Speaker 5: This is something that you mentioned briefly in the afterward. 376 00:23:09,800 --> 00:23:12,040 Speaker 5: And that's something that we've reported on is how a 377 00:23:12,119 --> 00:23:15,120 Speaker 5: lot of this groomer thing that started in twenty twenty 378 00:23:15,160 --> 00:23:17,639 Speaker 5: two and a whole bunch of this kind of modern 379 00:23:17,720 --> 00:23:21,160 Speaker 5: wave of transphobia is mirroring a lot of the anti 380 00:23:21,240 --> 00:23:24,359 Speaker 5: gay stuff from like the eighties that was pushed forward 381 00:23:24,440 --> 00:23:27,640 Speaker 5: by a lot of like evangelicals into just like mainstream 382 00:23:27,640 --> 00:23:30,879 Speaker 5: conservatism and specifically how it functions as this. Yeah, this 383 00:23:30,920 --> 00:23:33,080 Speaker 5: is sort of like moral panic and even social contagion. 384 00:23:33,320 --> 00:23:38,480 Speaker 5: The way homosexuality was treated as this thing and this 385 00:23:38,760 --> 00:23:41,560 Speaker 5: this sort of social contingent aspect is so common now. 386 00:23:41,680 --> 00:23:45,760 Speaker 5: I mean, even even the way we've already alluded to Musk, 387 00:23:45,840 --> 00:23:48,080 Speaker 5: even the way he mentions like the woke mind virus 388 00:23:48,160 --> 00:23:51,520 Speaker 5: ist is exactly this thing, and as it really like 389 00:23:51,600 --> 00:23:54,360 Speaker 5: moral panics and stuff. Right, this was kind of predated 390 00:23:54,680 --> 00:23:58,720 Speaker 5: by the critical race theory debacle, which then got you know, 391 00:23:58,880 --> 00:24:03,919 Speaker 5: turned into the groomer thing, and now exactly and now 392 00:24:03,960 --> 00:24:07,119 Speaker 5: it's even changed again. And these moral panics can have 393 00:24:07,359 --> 00:24:10,520 Speaker 5: like devastating results in terms of pushing forward legislation that 394 00:24:11,000 --> 00:24:14,960 Speaker 5: outlasts the actual moral panic, But the actual things themselves 395 00:24:14,960 --> 00:24:17,520 Speaker 5: are very short lived. They don't seem to have very 396 00:24:17,600 --> 00:24:22,119 Speaker 5: much like staying power as as like cultural moments. They 397 00:24:22,359 --> 00:24:24,520 Speaker 5: move on so quickly, Like no one talks about critical 398 00:24:24,600 --> 00:24:26,920 Speaker 5: race theory anymore. You don't even hear this sort of 399 00:24:26,960 --> 00:24:30,280 Speaker 5: groomer rhetoric as often as you did two years ago, 400 00:24:30,400 --> 00:24:33,119 Speaker 5: and it's being replaced by new versions. And yeah, like 401 00:24:33,200 --> 00:24:36,720 Speaker 5: Mia said, the DEEI thing is that is the current 402 00:24:37,280 --> 00:24:40,920 Speaker 5: current thing that is wrecking American society if you ask 403 00:24:40,960 --> 00:24:45,080 Speaker 5: about maybe one third of population. But yeah, how do 404 00:24:45,119 --> 00:24:48,240 Speaker 5: you feel about like the life cycle of these moral 405 00:24:48,320 --> 00:24:51,040 Speaker 5: panics and how they relate to like the social contagion aspect. 406 00:24:51,800 --> 00:24:54,160 Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, no, And I agree with what you're also 407 00:24:54,440 --> 00:24:57,280 Speaker 4: all the things you're citing that like, I think these 408 00:24:57,320 --> 00:25:00,280 Speaker 4: are all different variations of kind of the same idea. 409 00:25:00,600 --> 00:25:03,600 Speaker 4: And I do really appreciate the idea of the woke 410 00:25:03,760 --> 00:25:08,000 Speaker 4: mind virus as being kind of like the perfect like 411 00:25:08,119 --> 00:25:12,040 Speaker 4: the exemplar of this, and that you know, people were, 412 00:25:12,240 --> 00:25:14,400 Speaker 4: you know, people were complaining about you know, stuff being 413 00:25:14,480 --> 00:25:17,760 Speaker 4: woke for a while, and you know it is usually 414 00:25:17,920 --> 00:25:21,080 Speaker 4: it's often coded as something that's woke, is like anti racist, 415 00:25:21,280 --> 00:25:25,800 Speaker 4: or you know, is something like it's very much associated 416 00:25:26,440 --> 00:25:29,320 Speaker 4: you know, infused with like when people complain about wocism, 417 00:25:29,800 --> 00:25:33,840 Speaker 4: a lot of times they're like they're racist or or 418 00:25:33,920 --> 00:25:38,160 Speaker 4: there or at the very least they have fears about 419 00:25:38,200 --> 00:25:41,920 Speaker 4: kind of the corruption of pure whiteness being corrupted by 420 00:25:42,480 --> 00:25:46,920 Speaker 4: increasing you know, people of color and and you know, 421 00:25:47,320 --> 00:25:50,920 Speaker 4: like making gains in society. Right, But the woke mind virus, 422 00:25:50,920 --> 00:25:53,200 Speaker 4: because no one could really explain what woke is because 423 00:25:53,240 --> 00:25:55,520 Speaker 4: then it keeps shifting and it refers to trans people 424 00:25:56,160 --> 00:25:59,240 Speaker 4: or or critical race theory and et cetera. Yeah, and 425 00:25:59,320 --> 00:26:03,159 Speaker 4: the woke mind is like perfect because that's how they 426 00:26:03,320 --> 00:26:07,639 Speaker 4: think it all works. Like it's just this thing that 427 00:26:07,840 --> 00:26:12,760 Speaker 4: infects people, especially children. And the way in which there 428 00:26:12,880 --> 00:26:16,480 Speaker 4: is a recent thing just today, I think it was Ackerman, 429 00:26:16,600 --> 00:26:18,920 Speaker 4: the billionaire has been involved in a lot of this 430 00:26:19,080 --> 00:26:24,080 Speaker 4: DII stuff, complaining about his child being infected in college 431 00:26:24,240 --> 00:26:29,520 Speaker 4: with Marxism, and Elon Musk had similar issues with his 432 00:26:29,680 --> 00:26:34,080 Speaker 4: trans daughter, like becoming pro marx or anti capitalists, and 433 00:26:34,160 --> 00:26:37,680 Speaker 4: so they just assume that, like, no, my child was pure, 434 00:26:37,760 --> 00:26:40,040 Speaker 4: but now they're infected. It's like, well, maybe there are 435 00:26:40,119 --> 00:26:42,800 Speaker 4: other ideas out there that are better than your idea. 436 00:26:43,240 --> 00:26:45,840 Speaker 2: Yeah, and maybe that's. 437 00:26:45,640 --> 00:26:49,919 Speaker 4: All it is. But yeah, so I think in all 438 00:26:50,000 --> 00:26:53,480 Speaker 4: of these cases, yes, I think that there's this idea 439 00:26:53,520 --> 00:26:59,880 Speaker 4: of a contagion or corruption, often involving children, and it is. Yeah, 440 00:27:00,000 --> 00:27:03,040 Speaker 4: a lot of the moral panic, a lot of the literature, 441 00:27:03,240 --> 00:27:07,320 Speaker 4: like the social sciences literature, all moral panics. They often 442 00:27:07,359 --> 00:27:10,480 Speaker 4: describe them as fleeting. You know, this one, the anti 443 00:27:10,520 --> 00:27:14,360 Speaker 4: trans one, isn't fleeting enough right now from my perspective. 444 00:27:15,400 --> 00:27:18,440 Speaker 4: But people will tend to kind of move on, like 445 00:27:18,520 --> 00:27:22,040 Speaker 4: the Satanic panic of the eighties, you know, like that 446 00:27:22,240 --> 00:27:23,320 Speaker 4: was a really big deal and then all of a 447 00:27:23,320 --> 00:27:25,280 Speaker 4: sudden it was just gone and no one ever talked 448 00:27:25,280 --> 00:27:28,399 Speaker 4: about it again. I think the difference here is that 449 00:27:29,800 --> 00:27:33,480 Speaker 4: a lot of these moral panics are really tied together 450 00:27:33,640 --> 00:27:37,760 Speaker 4: with what's happening in the country more generally, with anti 451 00:27:37,800 --> 00:27:43,760 Speaker 4: democratic and authoritative, you know, views coming from you know, 452 00:27:43,840 --> 00:27:47,840 Speaker 4: particularly the right wing of the country. You know, like 453 00:27:47,960 --> 00:27:51,560 Speaker 4: one of the two major political parties is really pushing 454 00:27:52,359 --> 00:27:56,240 Speaker 4: a lot of just generally across the board. You know, 455 00:27:56,359 --> 00:28:00,400 Speaker 4: they're against feminism, they're you know, against people of color, 456 00:28:00,480 --> 00:28:05,879 Speaker 4: against LGBTQ plus people, and I think it's all wrapped 457 00:28:05,960 --> 00:28:09,879 Speaker 4: up into the same thing. I think that while individual 458 00:28:10,080 --> 00:28:12,480 Speaker 4: parts of the moral panic may go away. They may 459 00:28:12,560 --> 00:28:14,920 Speaker 4: talk about critical race theory for a bit and then 460 00:28:15,400 --> 00:28:18,199 Speaker 4: shift to trans people being groomers, then shift to DEI 461 00:28:19,200 --> 00:28:22,200 Speaker 4: but I think a lot of this is they're all intertwined. 462 00:28:22,400 --> 00:28:24,760 Speaker 4: And actually, I think that's like the last couple of 463 00:28:24,800 --> 00:28:28,720 Speaker 4: paragraphs of the afterward, I talk about that as a 464 00:28:28,800 --> 00:28:32,000 Speaker 4: potentially good thing, because even though it's been a horring 465 00:28:32,119 --> 00:28:34,920 Speaker 4: time to be a trans person, with all the anti 466 00:28:34,960 --> 00:28:40,400 Speaker 4: trans legislation and all the anti trans news stories, all 467 00:28:40,440 --> 00:28:43,760 Speaker 4: the pushes back on gender firm and care, despite all that, 468 00:28:44,440 --> 00:28:46,840 Speaker 4: I think the good thing is that I think there 469 00:28:46,880 --> 00:28:50,440 Speaker 4: are clear sides here, and I think, well, this wasn't 470 00:28:50,480 --> 00:28:54,800 Speaker 4: true early on in the anti trans backlash in the 471 00:28:55,160 --> 00:28:59,280 Speaker 4: late twenty tens. I think most people realize now that 472 00:28:59,840 --> 00:29:02,880 Speaker 4: all these things are tied together from like kind of 473 00:29:04,160 --> 00:29:07,400 Speaker 4: you know, the right wing perspective in this country is 474 00:29:07,520 --> 00:29:11,880 Speaker 4: just against all these things. You know, they want a white, Christian, 475 00:29:12,760 --> 00:29:18,440 Speaker 4: straight minority of people running everything about this country, and 476 00:29:18,920 --> 00:29:20,600 Speaker 4: so I think the rest of us really need to 477 00:29:21,520 --> 00:29:23,720 Speaker 4: recognize that and work together to defeat that. 478 00:29:25,000 --> 00:29:27,720 Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, I think I think that's a pretty 479 00:29:27,760 --> 00:29:30,440 Speaker 3: good place to end on. Let's you have anything else 480 00:29:30,440 --> 00:29:31,520 Speaker 3: that you wanted to make sure you get in. 481 00:29:32,840 --> 00:29:35,280 Speaker 4: No, I mean I feel like we touched, We covered 482 00:29:35,520 --> 00:29:38,560 Speaker 4: a bunch of the book past, present, and hopefully future 483 00:29:38,640 --> 00:29:42,200 Speaker 4: being better than the present right now. 484 00:29:42,360 --> 00:29:44,760 Speaker 3: Hopefully hopefully hopefully. 485 00:29:44,880 --> 00:29:45,040 Speaker 2: Yes. 486 00:29:46,920 --> 00:29:52,000 Speaker 3: So okay, where can people find a the new additional 487 00:29:52,000 --> 00:29:54,640 Speaker 3: Whipping Girl and be you and your work on the 488 00:29:54,720 --> 00:29:56,200 Speaker 3: internet and or other places? 489 00:29:57,720 --> 00:30:01,040 Speaker 4: Sure? Yeah, so the book should be available. So it's 490 00:30:01,040 --> 00:30:03,600 Speaker 4: available for pre order right now, so you can do 491 00:30:03,760 --> 00:30:08,120 Speaker 4: that through like, you know, online places. I often suggest 492 00:30:08,200 --> 00:30:11,120 Speaker 4: people go to the Seal Press, my publisher, because they 493 00:30:11,160 --> 00:30:13,240 Speaker 4: give lots of options there. But you can also go 494 00:30:13,400 --> 00:30:16,640 Speaker 4: to your local independent bookstore and say hey, I'd like 495 00:30:16,680 --> 00:30:18,160 Speaker 4: the pre order this book and they will do that 496 00:30:18,280 --> 00:30:20,960 Speaker 4: for you. So the book will be available everywhere and 497 00:30:21,000 --> 00:30:25,000 Speaker 4: should be in stores starting in March. As for me, 498 00:30:26,080 --> 00:30:29,120 Speaker 4: my website Juliusarana dot com, particularly if you go to 499 00:30:29,160 --> 00:30:32,280 Speaker 4: the writings page there, I have like literally links to 500 00:30:32,520 --> 00:30:36,360 Speaker 4: everything I've written online over the years, so it's kind 501 00:30:36,400 --> 00:30:39,440 Speaker 4: of a clearinghouse of free writings of mine. There are 502 00:30:39,440 --> 00:30:41,800 Speaker 4: also links to my books there, and then if you're 503 00:30:41,840 --> 00:30:44,840 Speaker 4: looking for me on social media, I'm at Julius Serrano 504 00:30:45,160 --> 00:30:47,360 Speaker 4: on most platforms that I'm at. 505 00:30:48,400 --> 00:30:51,600 Speaker 3: I don't know how much stronger I can possibly recommend 506 00:30:51,840 --> 00:30:55,640 Speaker 3: reading Whipping Girl. It had I don't know, it had 507 00:30:55,640 --> 00:30:58,120 Speaker 3: an enormous impact on me when I first read it, 508 00:30:59,000 --> 00:31:01,600 Speaker 3: and yeah, yeah it will, it will. It will do 509 00:31:01,720 --> 00:31:03,200 Speaker 3: good things for you if you read it too. 510 00:31:04,720 --> 00:31:08,600 Speaker 5: Yeah, and it's all still incredibly relevant. Like I was 511 00:31:08,680 --> 00:31:12,160 Speaker 5: breezing through like fifty pages just to refresh my memory 512 00:31:12,600 --> 00:31:14,320 Speaker 5: this morning, and I'm like, oh wow, so many of 513 00:31:14,440 --> 00:31:18,880 Speaker 5: the like intercommunity trans discourses that are constantly happening have 514 00:31:18,960 --> 00:31:21,600 Speaker 5: already been addressed, like twenty years ago, so many of 515 00:31:21,880 --> 00:31:24,840 Speaker 5: like I all the time I spend trying to write 516 00:31:24,840 --> 00:31:29,960 Speaker 5: about like trans misogyny of like, oh I I forgot, 517 00:31:30,040 --> 00:31:31,920 Speaker 5: this is already like all like written down, Like I 518 00:31:32,440 --> 00:31:35,200 Speaker 5: spent so long writing about the Daily Wire movie, and like, 519 00:31:35,280 --> 00:31:37,960 Speaker 5: oh this is hardly all this work has already been done. 520 00:31:38,080 --> 00:31:39,040 Speaker 3: I can just like stop. 521 00:31:41,040 --> 00:31:44,200 Speaker 5: Oh man, Yeah, cannot cannot recommend enough. 522 00:31:45,520 --> 00:31:47,600 Speaker 2: Yeah, thank you, thank you so much for coming on. 523 00:31:48,480 --> 00:31:51,320 Speaker 4: Yeah, thank you all for the kind words. Yeah, thank 524 00:31:51,360 --> 00:31:54,720 Speaker 4: you for having me And it was great and thanks 525 00:31:54,760 --> 00:31:55,600 Speaker 4: for all you do too. 526 00:31:57,040 --> 00:31:57,640 Speaker 3: Oh thank you. 527 00:32:03,960 --> 00:32:05,960 Speaker 1: It could happen here as a production of Cool Zone 528 00:32:06,040 --> 00:32:08,800 Speaker 1: Media for more podcasts from cool Zone Media. Visit our 529 00:32:08,840 --> 00:32:11,440 Speaker 1: website coolzonemedia dot com, or check us out on the 530 00:32:11,520 --> 00:32:14,920 Speaker 1: iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts, 531 00:32:15,360 --> 00:32:17,479 Speaker 1: you can find sources for It could happen here, Updated 532 00:32:17,560 --> 00:32:21,560 Speaker 1: monthly at coolzonemedia dot com slash sources. Thanks for listening.