WEBVTT - Listener Mail: The Psychedelic Experience 0:00:03.000 --> 0:00:04.840 Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind, a production of 0:00:04.880 --> 0:00:13.640 I Heart Radios How Stuff Works. Hey, you, welcome to 0:00:13.680 --> 0:00:15.880 Stuff to Blow your Mind. My name is Robert Lamb 0:00:16.120 --> 0:00:18.200 and I'm Joe McCormick, and we're coming at you with 0:00:18.280 --> 0:00:21.759 some listener mail today. So Robert, is all of this 0:00:21.840 --> 0:00:25.880 mail in today's episode going to be in response to 0:00:26.040 --> 0:00:30.560 our five part series on psychedelics. Yes, our our five episodes, 0:00:30.720 --> 0:00:32.879 a heroic dose of Stuff to Blow your Mind, if 0:00:32.920 --> 0:00:35.920 you will, on the topic of psychedelics. That was a 0:00:35.960 --> 0:00:38.520 really interesting thing to try. Now, we had never gone 0:00:38.560 --> 0:00:41.120 to a five part series on the subject before. There 0:00:41.159 --> 0:00:44.400 are certain subjects that we revisit over time in various ways. 0:00:44.680 --> 0:00:46.560 I think in the past we'd gone to like two 0:00:46.640 --> 0:00:50.320 or three parts on some specific subjects. Maybe four. Did 0:00:50.360 --> 0:00:53.080 we go four on black Holes? I don't remember. I 0:00:53.080 --> 0:00:54.720 think we went three parts of the Black Holes, but 0:00:54.760 --> 0:00:57.320 I'm not positive. But anyway, so we've never gone that 0:00:57.400 --> 0:00:59.880 long before. It was sort of an experiment, but it 0:01:00.600 --> 0:01:03.080 felt necessary once we got into the topic because it 0:01:03.160 --> 0:01:06.440 was something that we wanted to treat with thoroughness, but 0:01:06.520 --> 0:01:10.199 also with care and even handedness, because it's a sensitive topic, 0:01:10.280 --> 0:01:14.640 especially dealing with illegality and taboos and possible risks on 0:01:14.680 --> 0:01:18.520 a you know, a substance that evidence shows may have 0:01:18.560 --> 0:01:21.640 a lot of benefits but also is not without risks 0:01:21.680 --> 0:01:24.680 and not without dangers, and that people should understand if 0:01:24.680 --> 0:01:27.919 they're gonna experiment with. Of course, we're not advising people 0:01:27.959 --> 0:01:31.200 to experiment with these substances, and that should be in 0:01:31.200 --> 0:01:33.800 your minds throughout those episodes and today's episode is that 0:01:33.840 --> 0:01:36.399 we're not recommending a course of action for you by 0:01:36.440 --> 0:01:41.759 talking about the science or other people's experiences with psychedelics. Right, 0:01:42.000 --> 0:01:45.200 these substances are almost certainly illegal wherever you're listening to 0:01:45.240 --> 0:01:47.000 this show, and even if that were not the case, 0:01:47.120 --> 0:01:50.200 they're powerful substances that should not be taken lightly. You know, 0:01:50.240 --> 0:01:53.400 in certain individuals. As we discuss, psychological side effects can occur, 0:01:53.640 --> 0:01:56.000 and even in the best cases of set and setting, 0:01:56.080 --> 0:01:59.320 users often report challenging portions of the trip. Right, So 0:01:59.440 --> 0:02:01.680 I mean, I would say the main takeaway is we're 0:02:01.680 --> 0:02:04.320 not recommending people try psychedelics, but we do want to 0:02:04.440 --> 0:02:09.240 fairly discuss what the science says about their possible benefits 0:02:09.280 --> 0:02:12.600 and people's first hand experiences with them, for for good 0:02:12.639 --> 0:02:14.960 and for ill, right, and of course, as always, we 0:02:15.040 --> 0:02:17.440 reach out to the listeners and we'll reach out to 0:02:17.919 --> 0:02:21.800 to other folks to to get their feedback, their experiences, 0:02:21.840 --> 0:02:24.799 their first hand experiences on you know, any topic, and 0:02:24.840 --> 0:02:27.960 this is certainly a topic that we wanted to hear 0:02:27.960 --> 0:02:31.880 from everyone about. Also on our Facebook group on the 0:02:31.880 --> 0:02:34.800 discussion module, we also heard some people talking back and 0:02:34.840 --> 0:02:37.760 forth about just the nature of doing a five part episode. 0:02:37.960 --> 0:02:41.120 And you know, to what extent people like that or 0:02:41.160 --> 0:02:43.920 they don't. They don't like five part episodes. So you know, 0:02:43.960 --> 0:02:45.639 if you're not a part of the discussion module and 0:02:46.000 --> 0:02:48.760 you have thoughts on this, certainly right in and uh 0:02:48.760 --> 0:02:51.120 and let us know, are you down for a five 0:02:51.240 --> 0:02:55.200 part another five parts study of a particular topic or 0:02:55.440 --> 0:02:58.400 do you prefer like one in two parts. I enjoyed it. 0:02:58.440 --> 0:03:00.880 I mean, I really liked the ability to go in 0:03:01.120 --> 0:03:04.200 depth and explore a topic, even though we couldn't do 0:03:04.240 --> 0:03:08.320 everything about psychedelics. We couldn't even really It's frustrating how 0:03:08.360 --> 0:03:09.960 no matter how deep you go, it seems like you 0:03:10.000 --> 0:03:12.519 can't but scratch the surface on these big topics having 0:03:12.520 --> 0:03:14.360 to do with the mind and you know, the human 0:03:14.360 --> 0:03:18.200 experience and all that. But but I I did appreciate 0:03:18.240 --> 0:03:20.520 being able to go into more depth than we usually 0:03:20.520 --> 0:03:23.560 can in a single or two part episode on on 0:03:23.840 --> 0:03:26.120 a big topic. And it seems to me like the 0:03:26.160 --> 0:03:29.400 majority of responses we've gotten about it, we're positive. It 0:03:29.440 --> 0:03:31.400 seems like most people liked it, though some people said 0:03:31.400 --> 0:03:33.680 that they liked it better when we spend you know, 0:03:33.800 --> 0:03:35.560 one or two parts on a subject and then move 0:03:35.600 --> 0:03:37.440 on to something else, just in case it's not a 0:03:37.480 --> 0:03:41.080 subject that captures their interest. And if psychedelics don't capture 0:03:41.120 --> 0:03:43.880 your interest, that's okay, all right, So we're gonna bring 0:03:43.880 --> 0:03:46.320 in the mail bot at this point. The mail bot 0:03:46.720 --> 0:03:50.000 is very fractal looking today. I believe he has been 0:03:51.120 --> 0:03:54.680 infected with machine elves. But still he's he's here to 0:03:54.720 --> 0:03:57.640 do his job. He's here to present uh listener mail 0:03:57.680 --> 0:04:00.920 for us. And we've we've changed addings just a little bit. 0:04:01.000 --> 0:04:05.160 Normally we provide like the first name of an individual 0:04:05.160 --> 0:04:09.440 who's written into us. In this case, given the nature 0:04:09.440 --> 0:04:11.040 of the topic and given the fact that some people 0:04:11.400 --> 0:04:15.160 asked to remain anonymous, we're just going to have everyone 0:04:15.320 --> 0:04:18.240 be anonymous on this episode. Yeah. Oh, and just one 0:04:18.240 --> 0:04:21.159 more thing also, obviously, since today's episode is going to 0:04:21.240 --> 0:04:24.520 be frankly discussing people's first hand experiences to some extent 0:04:24.560 --> 0:04:28.200 with psychedelics and and other drug use. Uh, you know, obviously, 0:04:28.839 --> 0:04:31.640 just be warned that that subject matter is coming right. 0:04:31.839 --> 0:04:33.880 All right, Well, I'm going to read the first one 0:04:33.920 --> 0:04:37.080 here that Carney is handing me. In the psychedelic episodes, 0:04:37.120 --> 0:04:40.680 there's mention of ridicality and encounters with God or something 0:04:40.720 --> 0:04:42.839 that is best described as God. Given the limits of 0:04:42.880 --> 0:04:45.880 human language to describe some of these things, I wanted 0:04:45.920 --> 0:04:48.400 to share two experiences that I had along these lines, 0:04:48.520 --> 0:04:51.600 One from my first and most powerful use of psilocybin mushrooms, 0:04:51.839 --> 0:04:54.080 and the other from a much later savasana phase of 0:04:54.120 --> 0:04:57.840 my yoga practice. In the psilocybin case, I experienced a deep, 0:04:57.920 --> 0:05:01.559 closed eye internal experience. I wouldn't describe it as ego 0:05:01.640 --> 0:05:04.520 lost because I was aware of myself, but it was 0:05:04.680 --> 0:05:07.200 almost out of body in a way. Only instead of 0:05:07.200 --> 0:05:09.960 pulling out of my physical form and seeing my physical 0:05:10.240 --> 0:05:12.600 form from above, I saw my place in a much 0:05:12.680 --> 0:05:16.800 grander chain of beings, like a link and a transdimensional tapestry. 0:05:17.279 --> 0:05:20.440 It was fractal, genetic, and felt more like deep inner 0:05:20.480 --> 0:05:23.480 space than outer space. There was a strong warm, organic 0:05:23.560 --> 0:05:26.719 feel to it, swirling reds and orange, and in this state, 0:05:26.800 --> 0:05:29.760 I felt, or was told that this reality was all 0:05:29.800 --> 0:05:33.000 that mattered, that fears and concerns of the ego were irrelevant, 0:05:33.120 --> 0:05:35.920 because all that mattered was that I loved and was 0:05:36.000 --> 0:05:39.080 loved within this interconnected chain of souls. I would say 0:05:39.080 --> 0:05:41.520 it was one of the most beautiful things I've ever experienced. 0:05:41.720 --> 0:05:43.960 I didn't really know much about psychedelics at the time, 0:05:44.000 --> 0:05:46.440 but I attribute the intensity of the experience to simply 0:05:46.520 --> 0:05:50.000 having never taken sol cybin before, and I attribute the 0:05:50.080 --> 0:05:52.599 attribute the vibe in large part to excellent set and 0:05:52.600 --> 0:05:55.360 setting on that particular trip. It's been a long time, though, 0:05:55.360 --> 0:05:57.200 and I feel as if I need to remember the 0:05:57.279 --> 0:05:59.760 lessons of this trip in my day to day life. 0:06:00.000 --> 0:06:03.719 More than a decade later, the Savastana experience was rather different. 0:06:03.920 --> 0:06:07.039 I occasionally experienced strong visions during Savasta, and on a 0:06:07.080 --> 0:06:09.960 few occasions I feel that they resulted in what could 0:06:10.000 --> 0:06:13.039 be described as ego loss. I've also seen, but never 0:06:13.080 --> 0:06:16.880 communicated with, manifestations of the deceased in these cases. And 0:06:16.920 --> 0:06:19.679 then during one session, I saw something that I knew 0:06:19.800 --> 0:06:23.279 was God. Despite the lack of communication between myself and 0:06:23.320 --> 0:06:26.200 the entity. It was a triangle amid the clouds, but 0:06:26.279 --> 0:06:28.600 not the clouds of this world, more like some brilliant 0:06:28.640 --> 0:06:32.760 sunset illuminated atmosphere on some distant gas giant. The triangle 0:06:32.800 --> 0:06:35.760 itself was luminescent, but of no real color that I remember. 0:06:36.040 --> 0:06:38.880 I was overcome by feelings of wonder and calm. I'm 0:06:38.920 --> 0:06:41.880 not saying this wasn't just a mental image assemboled out 0:06:41.920 --> 0:06:45.280 of various visuals floating around my subconscious It almost certainly 0:06:45.320 --> 0:06:47.520 was just that, But I think it's a good example 0:06:47.560 --> 0:06:50.280 of the sort of otherworldly experience that one can have 0:06:50.560 --> 0:06:55.440 through meditative practice, even without psychedelic substances. Yeah, that's interesting. 0:06:55.480 --> 0:06:57.599 I mean, it certainly came up in our episode that 0:06:57.640 --> 0:07:03.040 there are recognized neurological called parallels between uh, the meditative 0:07:03.040 --> 0:07:06.520 practice that that some people do, and in the psychedelic experience. 0:07:06.560 --> 0:07:09.080 One of the things we talked about was brain imaging 0:07:09.080 --> 0:07:11.480 studies that at least make it seem like something that's 0:07:11.640 --> 0:07:15.000 common to both the psychedelic experience with drugs like psilocybin 0:07:15.400 --> 0:07:18.200 and the experience of at least master meditators, is that 0:07:18.240 --> 0:07:21.520 there is some suppression of the brain regions we associate 0:07:21.560 --> 0:07:24.800 with the default mode network, which we talked about having 0:07:24.840 --> 0:07:27.200 to do with of course, you know, the kind of 0:07:27.320 --> 0:07:30.760 rumination that enters people's minds when they're otherwise idol. So 0:07:30.800 --> 0:07:32.760 you're just sitting there by yourself, you don't have anything 0:07:32.800 --> 0:07:34.960 to do or think about. You start thinking about yourself 0:07:35.240 --> 0:07:37.880 and your problems and your past and your future. And 0:07:37.920 --> 0:07:40.200 that's another part of it, is mental time travel. And 0:07:40.200 --> 0:07:43.800 then of course another part is like evaluations of the 0:07:43.840 --> 0:07:46.760 self and of other people. Right, yeah, and and I 0:07:46.760 --> 0:07:48.600 feel like, you know this this lines up with what 0:07:48.840 --> 0:07:52.000 we've read from various commentators and and people who have 0:07:52.040 --> 0:07:54.840 studied traditional practices that you know that there's there's the 0:07:54.920 --> 0:07:59.960 domain of of a sort of psychedelic experience achievable through tradition, 0:08:00.560 --> 0:08:04.640 non drug related practices, and then there's also like the 0:08:04.640 --> 0:08:08.080 realm of dreams as well, that is often lumped into 0:08:08.160 --> 0:08:12.560 the same you know, network of experiences, particularly in in 0:08:12.680 --> 0:08:16.800 some you know, traditional Amazonian practices. Yeah, totally, all right, 0:08:16.880 --> 0:08:19.600 here's the next one, and uh, how to catch for myself. 0:08:19.600 --> 0:08:23.440 We're not using names, Okay, so this one begins. I 0:08:23.560 --> 0:08:26.000 was an active member, says Hi, Robert and Joe. We 0:08:26.000 --> 0:08:28.679 can use our names. It says I was an active 0:08:28.760 --> 0:08:32.000 member of various message boards dedicated to psychedelic drugs from 0:08:32.040 --> 0:08:35.959 Circle nine until about five years ago. I still participate 0:08:36.000 --> 0:08:38.680 in some message boards, but not nearly as frequently. I 0:08:38.800 --> 0:08:41.080 was a user on forums such as the shrew Maery 0:08:41.120 --> 0:08:44.440 in the long defunct The Third Plateau, which are dedicated 0:08:44.440 --> 0:08:48.920 to specific drugs such as psilocybin containing mushrooms and dextromethorphan 0:08:49.080 --> 0:08:51.680 or d x M, respectively. I was also a member 0:08:51.679 --> 0:08:54.000 of forums such as Drugs Forum dot com, which is 0:08:54.040 --> 0:08:57.880 dedicated to psychoactive drugs in general. I'm a pretty critical person, 0:08:57.960 --> 0:09:01.679 but I don't think my criticisms about ego death are invalid. 0:09:02.280 --> 0:09:04.760 I think there is a lot of uncritical discussion on 0:09:04.800 --> 0:09:07.720 these boards, especially when discussions start getting into the realm 0:09:07.720 --> 0:09:11.480 of the mystical, supernatural, or spiritual. One thing that I 0:09:11.520 --> 0:09:14.320 have seen is that a lot of people, often younger 0:09:14.320 --> 0:09:17.000 people who are new to psychedelics, love to ask how 0:09:17.080 --> 0:09:19.800 much LSD do I have to take to reach level 0:09:19.960 --> 0:09:23.120 five or how many mushrooms do I need to take 0:09:23.160 --> 0:09:26.319 to have ego loss or ego death? And the author 0:09:26.320 --> 0:09:29.680 of this email explains that level five refers to what 0:09:29.880 --> 0:09:32.679 was and may still be, a popular scheme for classifying 0:09:32.720 --> 0:09:36.360 the intensity of psychedelic experiences, as laid out by Graham 0:09:36.480 --> 0:09:40.480 Carl and included in the Psychedelic Experience fact, which appears 0:09:40.480 --> 0:09:44.040 to be hosted on aerowid dot org, which is a 0:09:44.160 --> 0:09:47.920 drug related information site. The writer continues, I've seen a 0:09:47.960 --> 0:09:50.160 lot of discussions about this, and many people think the 0:09:50.240 --> 0:09:54.360 ultimate aim of taking psychedelics is to experience ego loss. 0:09:55.360 --> 0:09:59.040 But the writer here contends it is impossible to experience 0:09:59.120 --> 0:10:02.760 ego loss. The ego is one sense of self. That 0:10:02.880 --> 0:10:04.880 is to say that the ego is the model of 0:10:04.960 --> 0:10:08.880 oneself which the brain constructs without any conception of self, 0:10:09.000 --> 0:10:13.160 it is impossible to experience anything. Experiences are not things 0:10:13.200 --> 0:10:16.400 that float around to be gathered. Experience has happened to 0:10:16.480 --> 0:10:21.280 someone or something. I experience something. Experiences aren't the same 0:10:21.320 --> 0:10:24.880 thing as raw sensory data, and experience is the result 0:10:24.960 --> 0:10:27.320 of one's brain making the best sense of all that 0:10:27.400 --> 0:10:30.800 raw sensory data in relation to the model of oneself. 0:10:31.280 --> 0:10:34.040 Without the model of oneself, it's meaningless to talk about 0:10:34.120 --> 0:10:38.359 experiencing ego death. I have never read a compelling description 0:10:38.400 --> 0:10:40.760 of ego death. I do not believe that this is 0:10:40.800 --> 0:10:43.120 simply because we don't have the words to describe what 0:10:43.200 --> 0:10:46.800 it's like to experience things without any sense of self. Basically, 0:10:46.840 --> 0:10:49.959 any trip report I've read that includes ego death says 0:10:50.000 --> 0:10:53.000 nothing except for the same cliches. I generally found the 0:10:53.040 --> 0:10:56.640 descriptions meaningless. Note that in this paragraph any quotations are 0:10:56.679 --> 0:11:00.400 not actual quotations, their approximations for memory. Some would be 0:11:00.440 --> 0:11:03.720 as brief as saying, and then I experience full ego death. 0:11:04.000 --> 0:11:07.559 Others repeated cliches like I had ego death and experienced 0:11:07.640 --> 0:11:10.480 raw sensory data, or then I had ego death and 0:11:10.520 --> 0:11:13.640 it was pure experience with no ego. A few times 0:11:13.720 --> 0:11:17.280 I shared my hypothesis about the impossibility of actually experiencing 0:11:17.360 --> 0:11:20.200 ego death. If your ego dies, then you do not 0:11:20.400 --> 0:11:24.480 experience anything because you do not exist, or at least 0:11:24.640 --> 0:11:27.880 there is no model of you to experience anything. So 0:11:28.000 --> 0:11:30.200 if you or the model of you which your brain 0:11:30.320 --> 0:11:35.120 presents are absent, then what is experiencing ego loss? Don't misunderstand, 0:11:35.200 --> 0:11:38.120 I do know that psychedelics can radically change change one's 0:11:38.160 --> 0:11:40.400 sense of self to the point where ego loss is 0:11:40.480 --> 0:11:44.040 almost the right word. If one's normal ego the default 0:11:44.080 --> 0:11:47.600 mode ego is transformed radically, then sure you've lost your 0:11:47.640 --> 0:11:50.520 old ego and been born into a new ego. I know. 0:11:50.559 --> 0:11:53.200 Psychedelics can cause one sense of self to become so 0:11:53.280 --> 0:11:56.600 tiny that it seems like you don't exist except as 0:11:56.640 --> 0:12:00.920 some little dot and a human brain which has self awareness. Alternately, 0:12:01.120 --> 0:12:04.200 the subject object distinctions can be so fuzzy that it 0:12:04.240 --> 0:12:07.400 seems one has merged with the universe. It can seem 0:12:07.400 --> 0:12:10.479 that one is just purely aware. It's just pure awareness 0:12:10.480 --> 0:12:13.240 with no sense of self. However, even if your ego 0:12:13.280 --> 0:12:15.640 has gotten to this point where it seems you either 0:12:15.720 --> 0:12:18.719 don't exist because the ego is an illusion, or you're 0:12:18.760 --> 0:12:21.880 so tiny as to be meaningless, or you see yourself 0:12:21.920 --> 0:12:24.320 as being one with everything around you, there is no 0:12:24.440 --> 0:12:28.199 experiencing pure awareness without a sense of self. I submit 0:12:28.240 --> 0:12:32.000 to you that simply being aware must imply self awareness, 0:12:32.320 --> 0:12:35.480 even if that self seems to be purely an observer. Uh, 0:12:35.559 --> 0:12:37.480 there still must be a sense of self in order 0:12:37.480 --> 0:12:40.720 to experience anything. Maybe I'm being nitpicky because ego death 0:12:40.800 --> 0:12:44.720 isn't exactly inaccurate, but I don't believe that experiencing without 0:12:44.720 --> 0:12:47.880 any ego without any sense of self whatsoever is possible. 0:12:48.160 --> 0:12:51.320 Psychedelics can certainly annihilate one sense of self, but the 0:12:51.360 --> 0:12:54.800 ego is transformed, not taken away entirely. I'm glad you 0:12:54.800 --> 0:12:57.319 haven't focused too much on ego death in the episodes. 0:12:57.400 --> 0:12:59.280 I do think it's mumbo jumbo, and there are a 0:12:59.280 --> 0:13:01.520 lot of seeker is out there who are being misled 0:13:01.520 --> 0:13:05.000 by uncritical psychedelic enthusiasts who think it's possible to take 0:13:05.120 --> 0:13:09.640 LST or another classical psychedelic and experience nirvana and emerge 0:13:09.679 --> 0:13:12.240 from the trip as a totally new person like a butterfly, 0:13:12.800 --> 0:13:16.360 ego death and rebirth like the caterpillar. While psychedelics can 0:13:16.400 --> 0:13:20.320 influence personality, I don't think that experiencing ego loss is meaningful. 0:13:20.480 --> 0:13:23.560 I think psychedelic idealists are suggesting that there is an 0:13:23.600 --> 0:13:26.960 ultimate goal that people should strive towards when taking psychedelics, 0:13:27.000 --> 0:13:29.920 as though it will then turn them into the beautiful butterfly. 0:13:30.320 --> 0:13:33.200 I've not seen anyone emerge from a cocoon to end. 0:13:33.240 --> 0:13:35.800 I'd like to say that the four episodes so far 0:13:35.840 --> 0:13:37.600 I guess this was after the fourth one, have been 0:13:37.720 --> 0:13:39.880 very very good. Thank you for doing such good work. 0:13:40.120 --> 0:13:44.520 I am so grateful best regards. So in a sense, 0:13:44.559 --> 0:13:46.920 I guess I see what the writer here is saying, 0:13:47.360 --> 0:13:50.200 but I'm not sure. I I accept this argument about 0:13:50.720 --> 0:13:55.000 ego loss being an incoherent concept. So we have experiences, 0:13:55.040 --> 0:13:57.960 and obviously you need to, as as far as we know, 0:13:58.120 --> 0:14:00.920 have some kind of brain to have those experiences. So 0:14:01.559 --> 0:14:04.560 I would certainly disagree with somebody who says that their 0:14:04.559 --> 0:14:08.680 psychedelic experience proves that like their brain doesn't exist or something. 0:14:09.240 --> 0:14:11.840 But the self, I think, as far as we know, 0:14:12.000 --> 0:14:15.400 is an internal, subjective concept. The self is something that's 0:14:15.520 --> 0:14:19.200 created by the brain. It's a series of impressions that 0:14:19.280 --> 0:14:23.000 have to do with a sort of autobiographical narrative script 0:14:23.160 --> 0:14:27.800 that's constantly running this relating sensory data and experiences back 0:14:27.840 --> 0:14:30.400 to this idea of who I am, what I've been, 0:14:30.560 --> 0:14:34.680 what I'm going to be, And I don't actually accept. 0:14:34.760 --> 0:14:38.280 I think that it is necessary for all experience to 0:14:38.320 --> 0:14:43.160 be routed through references to this autobiographical sense of self, 0:14:43.280 --> 0:14:46.480 the the narrator running in the head. Uh. In fact, 0:14:46.520 --> 0:14:49.440 I think one of the things about the psychedelic experience 0:14:49.520 --> 0:14:53.040 that's so revealing to people is it reveals to them 0:14:53.720 --> 0:14:57.160 that their sense of self is an impression and not 0:14:57.280 --> 0:15:01.120 an objective reality, that that the elf is a series 0:15:01.160 --> 0:15:05.280 of thoughts and thought patterns, not like an object in 0:15:05.320 --> 0:15:09.880 the world. Yeah, yeah, absolutely, Um, you know, I would 0:15:10.000 --> 0:15:12.520 I would say that that my response to this would be, like, 0:15:12.520 --> 0:15:14.400 on one hand, it seems like we are getting into 0:15:14.440 --> 0:15:18.040 just a discussion of terminology. And I think I said 0:15:18.040 --> 0:15:20.080 in the episodes that I don't particularly care for the 0:15:20.200 --> 0:15:23.720 term eco death just you know, it's a little gram Yeah. 0:15:23.760 --> 0:15:26.400 I like ego loss better. And I think my my 0:15:26.440 --> 0:15:29.680 read on ego loss was was always not so much 0:15:29.720 --> 0:15:32.160 an absolute loss, but more loss in the terms of 0:15:32.160 --> 0:15:35.640 a depletion, like I and and that's exactly what this 0:15:35.680 --> 0:15:38.840 particular listener like is saying, you know, is it is 0:15:38.840 --> 0:15:43.040 occurring that you know, you're at least experiencing a depletion 0:15:43.600 --> 0:15:47.600 of of the ego even if there is some you know, 0:15:47.240 --> 0:15:50.640 they're arguing that there's some at least minuscule uh, sense 0:15:50.680 --> 0:15:54.440 of the of the self remaining in your observations, right. Uh. 0:15:54.480 --> 0:15:56.840 And a very good point I think they may actually 0:15:57.000 --> 0:15:59.920 is they point out that you shouldn't have overly heroic 0:16:00.080 --> 0:16:02.920 expectations for what's going to happen, even through a high 0:16:02.920 --> 0:16:05.840 dose psychedelic experience that like you know that you're going 0:16:05.920 --> 0:16:08.640 to emerge like a butterfly from a cocoon, you know, 0:16:08.720 --> 0:16:12.160 without your past self and and being an all new person. 0:16:12.200 --> 0:16:16.040 I mean, people do report, uh, in some cases, very 0:16:16.080 --> 0:16:19.000 profound and positive changes in their life and their sense 0:16:19.040 --> 0:16:21.640 of self. But it's not a it's not a miracle drought, 0:16:21.720 --> 0:16:23.520 it's not a cure all. You know, It's just a tool, 0:16:24.560 --> 0:16:27.520 a powerful tool, but a tool nonetheless. And yeah, I 0:16:27.520 --> 0:16:29.960 mean I've I've read some accounts of people, you know, 0:16:30.000 --> 0:16:32.880 they were critical back in the sixties and are critical 0:16:32.920 --> 0:16:36.920 today of say individuals who travel to South America in 0:16:37.040 --> 0:16:39.960 order to have the ahuasca experience, but with like a 0:16:40.000 --> 0:16:42.840 certain goal in mind, and then they you know, it 0:16:42.880 --> 0:16:45.360 can be disappointing if you're if you're going to into 0:16:45.400 --> 0:16:49.240 it expecting again, these these heroic results, if you're expecting 0:16:49.280 --> 0:16:54.960 to be transformed purely by the experience. Um so, so yeah, 0:16:54.960 --> 0:16:57.160 I think that's worth taken into account. But but then again, 0:16:57.200 --> 0:16:59.240 another whole thing about this, you know we're talking about, 0:16:59.600 --> 0:17:02.080 you know, the degree to which people are primed and 0:17:02.120 --> 0:17:05.000 the degree to which the degree to which their expectations 0:17:05.119 --> 0:17:09.600 might be uh, you know, unfairly elevated. As we discuss though, 0:17:09.640 --> 0:17:14.000 like this, the psychedelic experience is highly susceptible to priming. Yeah, 0:17:14.119 --> 0:17:17.200 and like that is that's it's part of the experience. Well, 0:17:17.200 --> 0:17:18.880 it's one of the things that makes it a little 0:17:18.920 --> 0:17:20.919 more difficult to study than a kind of kinds of 0:17:20.960 --> 0:17:24.320 other things, because it's a drug that acts not necessarily 0:17:24.400 --> 0:17:28.120 by like you know, changing levels of chemistry and your body, 0:17:28.160 --> 0:17:31.280 that that have a direct mechanism of action outside your 0:17:31.320 --> 0:17:35.160 your conscious control. It seems very much like to whatever extent, 0:17:35.240 --> 0:17:38.760 psychedelics do have therapeutic and legitimate medical uses, and it 0:17:38.800 --> 0:17:42.239 does seem like they probably do. It's by allowing you 0:17:42.280 --> 0:17:47.840 to have an emotional cognitive experience that is meaningful to 0:17:47.920 --> 0:17:52.280 you and perceived subjectively as meaningful and like motivates changes 0:17:52.320 --> 0:17:54.560 in behavior. You know, It's not like it's not like 0:17:54.680 --> 0:17:58.160 aspirin or something. And given that it very much appears 0:17:58.200 --> 0:18:00.760 appears to be the case that you you do very 0:18:00.840 --> 0:18:05.879 much want to intentionally bias people's expectations and stuff in 0:18:05.880 --> 0:18:08.320 in a positive direction to have them get the most 0:18:08.359 --> 0:18:11.560 out of the experience. Absolutely, but this is a great, 0:18:11.600 --> 0:18:13.119 great bit of listener mail. I feel like this was 0:18:13.160 --> 0:18:16.240 some you know, some some good good food for thought here. Uh. 0:18:16.359 --> 0:18:19.040 You know, the listener was, you know, is kind of 0:18:19.040 --> 0:18:22.560 disagreeing with some of the information out there about psychedelic 0:18:22.720 --> 0:18:27.560 use and the effects. Uh, but they providing an interesting argument. 0:18:27.840 --> 0:18:30.680 So um um, yeah, I really appreciate this, this bit 0:18:30.720 --> 0:18:33.520 of listener feedback. Yeah. I appreciate somebody making a case 0:18:33.680 --> 0:18:35.960 even and I think making some very good points, even 0:18:36.000 --> 0:18:38.920 if I don't necessarily agree with the overall point being made. 0:18:39.480 --> 0:18:42.440 All right, Well, we received another one. We received a 0:18:42.480 --> 0:18:44.919 one bit of listener mail just asking if we had 0:18:45.000 --> 0:18:49.240 enjoyed psychedelics and watched Avatar before. Um. But yeah, and 0:18:49.280 --> 0:18:53.080 then they summarized it. But in the summary of of Avatar, 0:18:53.200 --> 0:18:55.480 I was reminded like, yeah, this, like Avatar is a 0:18:55.600 --> 0:18:58.520 very like psyched kind of psychedelic film in its own way. 0:18:58.560 --> 0:19:01.679 You know, all these themes of you know, connecting with 0:19:01.800 --> 0:19:06.080 nature and you know, transformed furring your consciousness into a 0:19:06.119 --> 0:19:10.800 big blue cat creature leaving your body flying around. Yeah. So, um, 0:19:11.200 --> 0:19:13.080 I will have to think of think about that that 0:19:13.160 --> 0:19:15.800 read on Avatar the next time I see it, or 0:19:15.840 --> 0:19:17.760 when I get to you know, CD sequels that are 0:19:17.760 --> 0:19:20.880 in the works. Sorry, my mind is still just grinding 0:19:20.880 --> 0:19:24.040 on this previous thing. There's another statement I want to make. 0:19:24.280 --> 0:19:25.760 I just want to see if you agree with this 0:19:25.880 --> 0:19:28.639 or not. I mean, basically, I think one of the 0:19:28.680 --> 0:19:32.600 interesting things about psychedelic research to me is that it 0:19:33.000 --> 0:19:36.080 yields the conclusion, at least to me, that saying the 0:19:36.160 --> 0:19:41.760 self does not exist is not a spiritual or mystical statement. 0:19:42.280 --> 0:19:44.960 Saying the self does not exist can be like a 0:19:45.240 --> 0:19:48.720 purely material and mundane statement of fact in a way, 0:19:48.800 --> 0:19:52.920 and that the psychedelic experience does tend to reveal to 0:19:53.040 --> 0:19:56.240 people subjectively that this is the case. Without the use 0:19:56.320 --> 0:19:59.520 of you know, brain imaging techniques and all that. It 0:19:59.640 --> 0:20:02.720 just as you a different kind of subjective experience that 0:20:02.800 --> 0:20:05.640 makes you realize, like, oh, this thing that I always 0:20:05.680 --> 0:20:08.360 thought had to be there doesn't have to be there. 0:20:08.800 --> 0:20:13.880 I know firsthand because I was there and it wasn't there. Right, Yeah, 0:20:13.920 --> 0:20:17.520 And it's going to be interesting to see, you know what. Further, uh, 0:20:17.560 --> 0:20:20.480 you know, breakthroughs we we see in this uh you 0:20:20.520 --> 0:20:24.240 know now that we're seeing more and more research into psychedelics, 0:20:24.720 --> 0:20:26.760 like one of the one of one of the points 0:20:26.760 --> 0:20:29.239 that I see made again and again. Is that you know, 0:20:29.280 --> 0:20:32.520 for for the most part, you know, Western Western science 0:20:32.600 --> 0:20:36.320 has has been on one track, and this track has 0:20:36.359 --> 0:20:40.520 been you know, completely parallel to uh to the psychedelic track. 0:20:40.920 --> 0:20:44.600 And these two tracks have have converged, you know, for 0:20:44.640 --> 0:20:47.280 a very short time, and and it's been kind of 0:20:47.320 --> 0:20:50.280 touch and go. And now we're seeing more of a 0:20:50.280 --> 0:20:54.600 true convergence where we're actually like leveraging more of our 0:20:54.680 --> 0:20:58.320 our current scientific understanding of the world towards the psychedelic 0:20:58.320 --> 0:21:01.000 experience and attempt to understand like what can be gained 0:21:01.040 --> 0:21:04.000 from it, be it in the treatment of you know, 0:21:04.040 --> 0:21:08.520 addiction or various psychological conditions, or simply an understanding like 0:21:08.600 --> 0:21:10.800 what the mind is and how it works. All Right, 0:21:10.840 --> 0:21:12.240 I guess we need to take a quick break, but 0:21:12.320 --> 0:21:19.959 we'll be right back with more. Alright, we're back. So 0:21:20.040 --> 0:21:24.320 here's another bit of listener mail related to our psychedelics episodes. Hi, 0:21:24.480 --> 0:21:26.200 Robert and Joe. I've been listening to stuff to Blow 0:21:26.200 --> 0:21:28.600 your mind for about two years now. It keeps my 0:21:28.680 --> 0:21:31.199 mind occupied while I deal with the mundanity of my 0:21:31.280 --> 0:21:34.440 day job. I apologize in advance if this gets long winded, 0:21:34.440 --> 0:21:36.080 but I want to paint the whole picture of my 0:21:36.160 --> 0:21:39.720 recent dealings with depression and magic mushrooms. Well, it does seem. 0:21:39.720 --> 0:21:42.520