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Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind, a production of

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Speaker 1: I Heart Radios How Stuff Works. Hey, you, welcome to

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Speaker 1: Stuff to Blow your Mind. My name is Robert Lamb

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Speaker 1: and I'm Joe McCormick, and we're coming at you with

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Speaker 1: some listener mail today. So Robert, is all of this

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Speaker 1: mail in today's episode going to be in response to

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Speaker 1: our five part series on psychedelics. Yes, our our five episodes,

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Speaker 1: a heroic dose of Stuff to Blow your Mind, if

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Speaker 1: you will, on the topic of psychedelics. That was a

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Speaker 1: really interesting thing to try. Now, we had never gone

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Speaker 1: to a five part series on the subject before. There

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Speaker 1: are certain subjects that we revisit over time in various ways.

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Speaker 1: I think in the past we'd gone to like two

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Speaker 1: or three parts on some specific subjects. Maybe four. Did

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Speaker 1: we go four on black Holes? I don't remember. I

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Speaker 1: think we went three parts of the Black Holes, but

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Speaker 1: I'm not positive. But anyway, so we've never gone that

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Speaker 1: long before. It was sort of an experiment, but it

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Speaker 1: felt necessary once we got into the topic because it

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Speaker 1: was something that we wanted to treat with thoroughness, but

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Speaker 1: also with care and even handedness, because it's a sensitive topic,

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Speaker 1: especially dealing with illegality and taboos and possible risks on

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Speaker 1: a you know, a substance that evidence shows may have

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Speaker 1: a lot of benefits but also is not without risks

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Speaker 1: and not without dangers, and that people should understand if

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Speaker 1: they're gonna experiment with. Of course, we're not advising people

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Speaker 1: to experiment with these substances, and that should be in

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Speaker 1: your minds throughout those episodes and today's episode is that

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Speaker 1: we're not recommending a course of action for you by

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Speaker 1: talking about the science or other people's experiences with psychedelics. Right,

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Speaker 1: these substances are almost certainly illegal wherever you're listening to

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Speaker 1: this show, and even if that were not the case,

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Speaker 1: they're powerful substances that should not be taken lightly. You know,

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Speaker 1: in certain individuals. As we discuss, psychological side effects can occur,

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Speaker 1: and even in the best cases of set and setting,

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Speaker 1: users often report challenging portions of the trip. Right, So

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Speaker 1: I mean, I would say the main takeaway is we're

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Speaker 1: not recommending people try psychedelics, but we do want to

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Speaker 1: fairly discuss what the science says about their possible benefits

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Speaker 1: and people's first hand experiences with them, for for good

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Speaker 1: and for ill, right, and of course, as always, we

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Speaker 1: reach out to the listeners and we'll reach out to

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Speaker 1: to other folks to to get their feedback, their experiences,

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Speaker 1: their first hand experiences on you know, any topic, and

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Speaker 1: this is certainly a topic that we wanted to hear

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Speaker 1: from everyone about. Also on our Facebook group on the

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Speaker 1: discussion module, we also heard some people talking back and

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Speaker 1: forth about just the nature of doing a five part episode.

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Speaker 1: And you know, to what extent people like that or

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Speaker 1: they don't. They don't like five part episodes. So you know,

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Speaker 1: if you're not a part of the discussion module and

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Speaker 1: you have thoughts on this, certainly right in and uh

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Speaker 1: and let us know, are you down for a five

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Speaker 1: part another five parts study of a particular topic or

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Speaker 1: do you prefer like one in two parts. I enjoyed it.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I really liked the ability to go in

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Speaker 1: depth and explore a topic, even though we couldn't do

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Speaker 1: everything about psychedelics. We couldn't even really It's frustrating how

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Speaker 1: no matter how deep you go, it seems like you

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Speaker 1: can't but scratch the surface on these big topics having

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Speaker 1: to do with the mind and you know, the human

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Speaker 1: experience and all that. But but I I did appreciate

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Speaker 1: being able to go into more depth than we usually

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Speaker 1: can in a single or two part episode on on

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Speaker 1: a big topic. And it seems to me like the

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Speaker 1: majority of responses we've gotten about it, we're positive. It

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Speaker 1: seems like most people liked it, though some people said

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Speaker 1: that they liked it better when we spend you know,

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Speaker 1: one or two parts on a subject and then move

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Speaker 1: on to something else, just in case it's not a

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Speaker 1: subject that captures their interest. And if psychedelics don't capture

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Speaker 1: your interest, that's okay, all right, So we're gonna bring

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Speaker 1: in the mail bot at this point. The mail bot

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Speaker 1: is very fractal looking today. I believe he has been

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Speaker 1: infected with machine elves. But still he's he's here to

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Speaker 1: do his job. He's here to present uh listener mail

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Speaker 1: for us. And we've we've changed addings just a little bit.

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Speaker 1: Normally we provide like the first name of an individual

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Speaker 1: who's written into us. In this case, given the nature

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Speaker 1: of the topic and given the fact that some people

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Speaker 1: asked to remain anonymous, we're just going to have everyone

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Speaker 1: be anonymous on this episode. Yeah. Oh, and just one

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Speaker 1: more thing also, obviously, since today's episode is going to

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Speaker 1: be frankly discussing people's first hand experiences to some extent

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Speaker 1: with psychedelics and and other drug use. Uh, you know, obviously,

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Speaker 1: just be warned that that subject matter is coming right.

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Speaker 1: All right, Well, I'm going to read the first one

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Speaker 1: here that Carney is handing me. In the psychedelic episodes,

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Speaker 1: there's mention of ridicality and encounters with God or something

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Speaker 1: that is best described as God. Given the limits of

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Speaker 1: human language to describe some of these things, I wanted

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Speaker 1: to share two experiences that I had along these lines,

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Speaker 1: One from my first and most powerful use of psilocybin mushrooms,

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Speaker 1: and the other from a much later savasana phase of

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Speaker 1: my yoga practice. In the psilocybin case, I experienced a deep,

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Speaker 1: closed eye internal experience. I wouldn't describe it as ego

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Speaker 1: lost because I was aware of myself, but it was

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Speaker 1: almost out of body in a way. Only instead of

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Speaker 1: pulling out of my physical form and seeing my physical

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Speaker 1: form from above, I saw my place in a much

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Speaker 1: grander chain of beings, like a link and a transdimensional tapestry.

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Speaker 1: It was fractal, genetic, and felt more like deep inner

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Speaker 1: space than outer space. There was a strong warm, organic

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Speaker 1: feel to it, swirling reds and orange, and in this state,

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Speaker 1: I felt, or was told that this reality was all

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Speaker 1: that mattered, that fears and concerns of the ego were irrelevant,

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Speaker 1: because all that mattered was that I loved and was

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Speaker 1: loved within this interconnected chain of souls. I would say

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Speaker 1: it was one of the most beautiful things I've ever experienced.

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Speaker 1: I didn't really know much about psychedelics at the time,

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Speaker 1: but I attribute the intensity of the experience to simply

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Speaker 1: having never taken sol cybin before, and I attribute the

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Speaker 1: attribute the vibe in large part to excellent set and

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Speaker 1: setting on that particular trip. It's been a long time, though,

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Speaker 1: and I feel as if I need to remember the

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Speaker 1: lessons of this trip in my day to day life.

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Speaker 1: More than a decade later, the Savastana experience was rather different.

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Speaker 1: I occasionally experienced strong visions during Savasta, and on a

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Speaker 1: few occasions I feel that they resulted in what could

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Speaker 1: be described as ego loss. I've also seen, but never

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Speaker 1: communicated with, manifestations of the deceased in these cases. And

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Speaker 1: then during one session, I saw something that I knew

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Speaker 1: was God. Despite the lack of communication between myself and

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Speaker 1: the entity. It was a triangle amid the clouds, but

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Speaker 1: not the clouds of this world, more like some brilliant

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Speaker 1: sunset illuminated atmosphere on some distant gas giant. The triangle

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Speaker 1: itself was luminescent, but of no real color that I remember.

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Speaker 1: I was overcome by feelings of wonder and calm. I'm

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Speaker 1: not saying this wasn't just a mental image assemboled out

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Speaker 1: of various visuals floating around my subconscious It almost certainly

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Speaker 1: was just that, But I think it's a good example

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Speaker 1: of the sort of otherworldly experience that one can have

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Speaker 1: through meditative practice, even without psychedelic substances. Yeah, that's interesting.

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Speaker 1: I mean, it certainly came up in our episode that

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Speaker 1: there are recognized neurological called parallels between uh, the meditative

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Speaker 1: practice that that some people do, and in the psychedelic experience.

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Speaker 1: One of the things we talked about was brain imaging

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Speaker 1: studies that at least make it seem like something that's

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Speaker 1: common to both the psychedelic experience with drugs like psilocybin

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Speaker 1: and the experience of at least master meditators, is that

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Speaker 1: there is some suppression of the brain regions we associate

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Speaker 1: with the default mode network, which we talked about having

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Speaker 1: to do with of course, you know, the kind of

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Speaker 1: rumination that enters people's minds when they're otherwise idol. So

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Speaker 1: you're just sitting there by yourself, you don't have anything

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Speaker 1: to do or think about. You start thinking about yourself

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Speaker 1: and your problems and your past and your future. And

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Speaker 1: that's another part of it, is mental time travel. And

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Speaker 1: then of course another part is like evaluations of the

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Speaker 1: self and of other people. Right, yeah, and and I

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Speaker 1: feel like, you know this this lines up with what

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Speaker 1: we've read from various commentators and and people who have

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Speaker 1: studied traditional practices that you know that there's there's the

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Speaker 1: domain of of a sort of psychedelic experience achievable through tradition,

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Speaker 1: non drug related practices, and then there's also like the

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Speaker 1: realm of dreams as well, that is often lumped into

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Speaker 1: the same you know, network of experiences, particularly in in

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Speaker 1: some you know, traditional Amazonian practices. Yeah, totally, all right,

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Speaker 1: here's the next one, and uh, how to catch for myself.

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Speaker 1: We're not using names, Okay, so this one begins. I

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Speaker 1: was an active member, says Hi, Robert and Joe. We

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Speaker 1: can use our names. It says I was an active

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Speaker 1: member of various message boards dedicated to psychedelic drugs from

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Speaker 1: Circle nine until about five years ago. I still participate

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Speaker 1: in some message boards, but not nearly as frequently. I

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Speaker 1: was a user on forums such as the shrew Maery

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Speaker 1: in the long defunct The Third Plateau, which are dedicated

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Speaker 1: to specific drugs such as psilocybin containing mushrooms and dextromethorphan

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Speaker 1: or d x M, respectively. I was also a member

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Speaker 1: of forums such as Drugs Forum dot com, which is

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Speaker 1: dedicated to psychoactive drugs in general. I'm a pretty critical person,

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Speaker 1: but I don't think my criticisms about ego death are invalid.

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Speaker 1: I think there is a lot of uncritical discussion on

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Speaker 1: these boards, especially when discussions start getting into the realm

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Speaker 1: of the mystical, supernatural, or spiritual. One thing that I

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Speaker 1: have seen is that a lot of people, often younger

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Speaker 1: people who are new to psychedelics, love to ask how

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Speaker 1: much LSD do I have to take to reach level

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Speaker 1: five or how many mushrooms do I need to take

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Speaker 1: to have ego loss or ego death? And the author

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Speaker 1: of this email explains that level five refers to what

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Speaker 1: was and may still be, a popular scheme for classifying

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Speaker 1: the intensity of psychedelic experiences, as laid out by Graham

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Speaker 1: Carl and included in the Psychedelic Experience fact, which appears

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Speaker 1: to be hosted on aerowid dot org, which is a

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Speaker 1: drug related information site. The writer continues, I've seen a

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Speaker 1: lot of discussions about this, and many people think the

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Speaker 1: ultimate aim of taking psychedelics is to experience ego loss.

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Speaker 1: But the writer here contends it is impossible to experience

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Speaker 1: ego loss. The ego is one sense of self. That

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Speaker 1: is to say that the ego is the model of

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Speaker 1: oneself which the brain constructs without any conception of self,

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Speaker 1: it is impossible to experience anything. Experiences are not things

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Speaker 1: that float around to be gathered. Experience has happened to

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Speaker 1: someone or something. I experience something. Experiences aren't the same

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Speaker 1: thing as raw sensory data, and experience is the result

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Speaker 1: of one's brain making the best sense of all that

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Speaker 1: raw sensory data in relation to the model of oneself.

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Speaker 1: Without the model of oneself, it's meaningless to talk about

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Speaker 1: experiencing ego death. I have never read a compelling description

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Speaker 1: of ego death. I do not believe that this is

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Speaker 1: simply because we don't have the words to describe what

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Speaker 1: it's like to experience things without any sense of self. Basically,

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Speaker 1: any trip report I've read that includes ego death says

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Speaker 1: nothing except for the same cliches. I generally found the

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Speaker 1: descriptions meaningless. Note that in this paragraph any quotations are

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Speaker 1: not actual quotations, their approximations for memory. Some would be

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Speaker 1: as brief as saying, and then I experience full ego death.

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Speaker 1: Others repeated cliches like I had ego death and experienced

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Speaker 1: raw sensory data, or then I had ego death and

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Speaker 1: it was pure experience with no ego. A few times

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Speaker 1: I shared my hypothesis about the impossibility of actually experiencing

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Speaker 1: ego death. If your ego dies, then you do not

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Speaker 1: experience anything because you do not exist, or at least

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Speaker 1: there is no model of you to experience anything. So

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Speaker 1: if you or the model of you which your brain

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Speaker 1: presents are absent, then what is experiencing ego loss? Don't misunderstand,

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Speaker 1: I do know that psychedelics can radically change change one's

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Speaker 1: sense of self to the point where ego loss is

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Speaker 1: almost the right word. If one's normal ego the default

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Speaker 1: mode ego is transformed radically, then sure you've lost your

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Speaker 1: old ego and been born into a new ego. I know.

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Speaker 1: Psychedelics can cause one sense of self to become so

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Speaker 1: tiny that it seems like you don't exist except as

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Speaker 1: some little dot and a human brain which has self awareness. Alternately,

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Speaker 1: the subject object distinctions can be so fuzzy that it

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Speaker 1: seems one has merged with the universe. It can seem

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Speaker 1: that one is just purely aware. It's just pure awareness

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Speaker 1: with no sense of self. However, even if your ego

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Speaker 1: has gotten to this point where it seems you either

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Speaker 1: don't exist because the ego is an illusion, or you're

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Speaker 1: so tiny as to be meaningless, or you see yourself

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Speaker 1: as being one with everything around you, there is no

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Speaker 1: experiencing pure awareness without a sense of self. I submit

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Speaker 1: to you that simply being aware must imply self awareness,

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Speaker 1: even if that self seems to be purely an observer. Uh,

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Speaker 1: there still must be a sense of self in order

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Speaker 1: to experience anything. Maybe I'm being nitpicky because ego death

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Speaker 1: isn't exactly inaccurate, but I don't believe that experiencing without

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Speaker 1: any ego without any sense of self whatsoever is possible.

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Speaker 1: Psychedelics can certainly annihilate one sense of self, but the

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Speaker 1: ego is transformed, not taken away entirely. I'm glad you

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Speaker 1: haven't focused too much on ego death in the episodes.

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Speaker 1: I do think it's mumbo jumbo, and there are a

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Speaker 1: lot of seeker is out there who are being misled

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Speaker 1: by uncritical psychedelic enthusiasts who think it's possible to take

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Speaker 1: LST or another classical psychedelic and experience nirvana and emerge

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Speaker 1: from the trip as a totally new person like a butterfly,

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Speaker 1: ego death and rebirth like the caterpillar. While psychedelics can

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Speaker 1: influence personality, I don't think that experiencing ego loss is meaningful.

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Speaker 1: I think psychedelic idealists are suggesting that there is an

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Speaker 1: ultimate goal that people should strive towards when taking psychedelics,

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Speaker 1: as though it will then turn them into the beautiful butterfly.

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Speaker 1: I've not seen anyone emerge from a cocoon to end.

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Speaker 1: I'd like to say that the four episodes so far

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Speaker 1: I guess this was after the fourth one, have been

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Speaker 1: very very good. Thank you for doing such good work.

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Speaker 1: I am so grateful best regards. So in a sense,

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Speaker 1: I guess I see what the writer here is saying,

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Speaker 1: but I'm not sure. I I accept this argument about

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Speaker 1: ego loss being an incoherent concept. So we have experiences,

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Speaker 1: and obviously you need to, as as far as we know,

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Speaker 1: have some kind of brain to have those experiences. So

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Speaker 1: I would certainly disagree with somebody who says that their

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Speaker 1: psychedelic experience proves that like their brain doesn't exist or something.

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Speaker 1: But the self, I think, as far as we know,

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Speaker 1: is an internal, subjective concept. The self is something that's

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Speaker 1: created by the brain. It's a series of impressions that

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Speaker 1: have to do with a sort of autobiographical narrative script

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Speaker 1: that's constantly running this relating sensory data and experiences back

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Speaker 1: to this idea of who I am, what I've been,

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Speaker 1: what I'm going to be, And I don't actually accept.

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Speaker 1: I think that it is necessary for all experience to

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Speaker 1: be routed through references to this autobiographical sense of self,

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Speaker 1: the the narrator running in the head. Uh. In fact,

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Speaker 1: I think one of the things about the psychedelic experience

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Speaker 1: that's so revealing to people is it reveals to them

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Speaker 1: that their sense of self is an impression and not

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Speaker 1: an objective reality, that that the elf is a series

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Speaker 1: of thoughts and thought patterns, not like an object in

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Speaker 1: the world. Yeah, yeah, absolutely, Um, you know, I would

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Speaker 1: I would say that that my response to this would be, like,

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Speaker 1: on one hand, it seems like we are getting into

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Speaker 1: just a discussion of terminology. And I think I said

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Speaker 1: in the episodes that I don't particularly care for the

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Speaker 1: term eco death just you know, it's a little gram Yeah.

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Speaker 1: I like ego loss better. And I think my my

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Speaker 1: read on ego loss was was always not so much

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Speaker 1: an absolute loss, but more loss in the terms of

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Speaker 1: a depletion, like I and and that's exactly what this

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Speaker 1: particular listener like is saying, you know, is it is

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Speaker 1: occurring that you know, you're at least experiencing a depletion

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Speaker 1: of of the ego even if there is some you know,

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Speaker 1: they're arguing that there's some at least minuscule uh, sense

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Speaker 1: of the of the self remaining in your observations, right. Uh.

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Speaker 1: And a very good point I think they may actually

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Speaker 1: is they point out that you shouldn't have overly heroic

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Speaker 1: expectations for what's going to happen, even through a high

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Speaker 1: dose psychedelic experience that like you know that you're going

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Speaker 1: to emerge like a butterfly from a cocoon, you know,

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Speaker 1: without your past self and and being an all new person.

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Speaker 1: I mean, people do report, uh, in some cases, very

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Speaker 1: profound and positive changes in their life and their sense

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Speaker 1: of self. But it's not a it's not a miracle drought,

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Speaker 1: it's not a cure all. You know, It's just a tool,

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Speaker 1: a powerful tool, but a tool nonetheless. And yeah, I

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Speaker 1: mean I've I've read some accounts of people, you know,

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Speaker 1: they were critical back in the sixties and are critical

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Speaker 1: today of say individuals who travel to South America in

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Speaker 1: order to have the ahuasca experience, but with like a

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Speaker 1: certain goal in mind, and then they you know, it

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Speaker 1: can be disappointing if you're if you're going to into

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Speaker 1: it expecting again, these these heroic results, if you're expecting

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Speaker 1: to be transformed purely by the experience. Um so, so yeah,

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Speaker 1: I think that's worth taken into account. But but then again,

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Speaker 1: another whole thing about this, you know we're talking about,

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Speaker 1: you know, the degree to which people are primed and

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Speaker 1: the degree to which the degree to which their expectations

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Speaker 1: might be uh, you know, unfairly elevated. As we discuss though,

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Speaker 1: like this, the psychedelic experience is highly susceptible to priming. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and like that is that's it's part of the experience. Well,

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Speaker 1: it's one of the things that makes it a little

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Speaker 1: more difficult to study than a kind of kinds of

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Speaker 1: other things, because it's a drug that acts not necessarily

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Speaker 1: by like you know, changing levels of chemistry and your body,

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Speaker 1: that that have a direct mechanism of action outside your

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Speaker 1: your conscious control. It seems very much like to whatever extent,

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Speaker 1: psychedelics do have therapeutic and legitimate medical uses, and it

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Speaker 1: does seem like they probably do. It's by allowing you

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Speaker 1: to have an emotional cognitive experience that is meaningful to

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Speaker 1: you and perceived subjectively as meaningful and like motivates changes

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Speaker 1: in behavior. You know, It's not like it's not like

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Speaker 1: aspirin or something. And given that it very much appears

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Speaker 1: appears to be the case that you you do very

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Speaker 1: much want to intentionally bias people's expectations and stuff in

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Speaker 1: in a positive direction to have them get the most

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Speaker 1: out of the experience. Absolutely, but this is a great,

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Speaker 1: great bit of listener mail. I feel like this was

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Speaker 1: some you know, some some good good food for thought here. Uh.

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Speaker 1: You know, the listener was, you know, is kind of

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Speaker 1: disagreeing with some of the information out there about psychedelic

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Speaker 1: use and the effects. Uh, but they providing an interesting argument.

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Speaker 1: So um um, yeah, I really appreciate this, this bit

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Speaker 1: of listener feedback. Yeah. I appreciate somebody making a case

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Speaker 1: even and I think making some very good points, even

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Speaker 1: if I don't necessarily agree with the overall point being made.

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Speaker 1: All right, Well, we received another one. We received a

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Speaker 1: one bit of listener mail just asking if we had

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Speaker 1: enjoyed psychedelics and watched Avatar before. Um. But yeah, and

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Speaker 1: then they summarized it. But in the summary of of Avatar,

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Speaker 1: I was reminded like, yeah, this, like Avatar is a

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Speaker 1: very like psyched kind of psychedelic film in its own way.

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Speaker 1: You know, all these themes of you know, connecting with

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Speaker 1: nature and you know, transformed furring your consciousness into a

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Speaker 1: big blue cat creature leaving your body flying around. Yeah. So, um,

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Speaker 1: I will have to think of think about that that

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Speaker 1: read on Avatar the next time I see it, or

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Speaker 1: when I get to you know, CD sequels that are

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Speaker 1: in the works. Sorry, my mind is still just grinding

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Speaker 1: on this previous thing. There's another statement I want to make.

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Speaker 1: I just want to see if you agree with this

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Speaker 1: or not. I mean, basically, I think one of the

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Speaker 1: interesting things about psychedelic research to me is that it

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Speaker 1: yields the conclusion, at least to me, that saying the

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Speaker 1: self does not exist is not a spiritual or mystical statement.

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Speaker 1: Saying the self does not exist can be like a

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Speaker 1: purely material and mundane statement of fact in a way,

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Speaker 1: and that the psychedelic experience does tend to reveal to

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Speaker 1: people subjectively that this is the case. Without the use

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Speaker 1: of you know, brain imaging techniques and all that. It

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Speaker 1: just as you a different kind of subjective experience that

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Speaker 1: makes you realize, like, oh, this thing that I always

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Speaker 1: thought had to be there doesn't have to be there.

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Speaker 1: I know firsthand because I was there and it wasn't there. Right, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: And it's going to be interesting to see, you know what. Further, uh,

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Speaker 1: you know, breakthroughs we we see in this uh you

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Speaker 1: know now that we're seeing more and more research into psychedelics,

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Speaker 1: like one of the one of one of the points

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Speaker 1: that I see made again and again. Is that you know,

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Speaker 1: for for the most part, you know, Western Western science

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Speaker 1: has has been on one track, and this track has

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Speaker 1: been you know, completely parallel to uh to the psychedelic track.

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Speaker 1: And these two tracks have have converged, you know, for

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Speaker 1: a very short time, and and it's been kind of

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Speaker 1: touch and go. And now we're seeing more of a

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Speaker 1: true convergence where we're actually like leveraging more of our

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Speaker 1: our current scientific understanding of the world towards the psychedelic

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Speaker 1: experience and attempt to understand like what can be gained

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Speaker 1: from it, be it in the treatment of you know,

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Speaker 1: addiction or various psychological conditions, or simply an understanding like

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Speaker 1: what the mind is and how it works. All Right,

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Speaker 1: I guess we need to take a quick break, but

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Speaker 1: we'll be right back with more. Alright, we're back. So

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Speaker 1: here's another bit of listener mail related to our psychedelics episodes. Hi,

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Speaker 1: Robert and Joe. I've been listening to stuff to Blow

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Speaker 1: your mind for about two years now. It keeps my

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Speaker 1: mind occupied while I deal with the mundanity of my

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Speaker 1: day job. I apologize in advance if this gets long winded,

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Speaker 1: but I want to paint the whole picture of my

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Speaker 1: recent dealings with depression and magic mushrooms. Well, it does seem.

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Speaker 1: It seemed to be a theme that this that these

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Speaker 1: episodes resulted in long listener emails. All right, so they continue.

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Speaker 1: I suffered from chronic headaches for about five years and

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Speaker 1: that kept getting worse. Along with this, I developed migrains

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Speaker 1: that were triggered by travel anything more than fifty kilometers

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Speaker 1: in a car, and the next day my brain wants

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Speaker 1: to load. Once the pain goes away, suicidal depression would

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Speaker 1: kick in for about five days as the post drum

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Speaker 1: and so I saw my doc a few times, who

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Speaker 1: is a psychiatrist as well. After trying a bunch of

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Speaker 1: different meds and techniques and coming up empty, she suggested

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Speaker 1: that I try a mild S s R I and

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Speaker 1: just see what happens. My life changed from that day on,

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Speaker 1: which was in January this year. Turned out I had depression,

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Speaker 1: and only after being on S s R I was

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Speaker 1: able to see how depressed I was. Depression biases you

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Speaker 1: so much towards negativity that it's impossible to see that

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Speaker 1: you have a problem. My rage, road rage and anxiety

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Speaker 1: has basically disappeared. Completely along with the headaches and migraines,

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Speaker 1: gotten back to my hobbies and rebuilding relationships. And this

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Speaker 1: is where the shrooms come in. I've had shrims multiple

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Speaker 1: times long ago, about six years ago, and only three

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Speaker 1: weeks ago, decided to give it a go again as

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Speaker 1: my mindset is in a good place and I felt

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Speaker 1: like doing a mental reset. This was literally a week

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Speaker 1: before your Psychedelic series started on Stuff to Blow your mind.

427
00:22:59,119 --> 00:23:02,080
Speaker 1: I took about four rams, dried, got in bed under

428
00:23:02,080 --> 00:23:04,359
Speaker 1: a lot of blankets, and listened to prog metal for

429
00:23:04,440 --> 00:23:07,959
Speaker 1: a few hours. Yeah. Well, you know, no, I'm not mocking.

430
00:23:08,040 --> 00:23:10,800
Speaker 1: That's just it's funny what people do. I mean, it's

431
00:23:10,800 --> 00:23:13,760
Speaker 1: gonna it's it's gonna be subjective to your experience and taste.

432
00:23:13,800 --> 00:23:17,400
Speaker 1: You know. The music that is comforting to me isn't

433
00:23:17,480 --> 00:23:19,679
Speaker 1: necessarily going to be comforting to the next person. And

434
00:23:19,720 --> 00:23:22,840
Speaker 1: then I think is sometimes the case the music that

435
00:23:22,960 --> 00:23:27,600
Speaker 1: is comforting to you, the psilocybin user or what have you,

436
00:23:28,200 --> 00:23:30,560
Speaker 1: it might be different from the music that is comforting

437
00:23:30,560 --> 00:23:33,040
Speaker 1: to you in your like your normal day to day state.

438
00:23:33,160 --> 00:23:35,480
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I mean I was just thinking, how you know,

439
00:23:35,520 --> 00:23:38,040
Speaker 1: I love me some electric Wizard in general doom metal

440
00:23:38,160 --> 00:23:40,919
Speaker 1: kind of stuff. But I don't I don't know, it

441
00:23:40,960 --> 00:23:43,640
Speaker 1: seems like that could be a bad recipe. Yeah, well

442
00:23:44,440 --> 00:23:49,080
Speaker 1: it's gonna vary right the anyway, the listening continues. The

443
00:23:49,160 --> 00:23:52,040
Speaker 1: experience was profound, to say the least. Other than the

444
00:23:52,040 --> 00:23:54,960
Speaker 1: colors and patterns, I was confronted by all my mental

445
00:23:55,000 --> 00:23:57,439
Speaker 1: baggage and given a choice of how to deal with it.

446
00:23:57,720 --> 00:23:59,960
Speaker 1: At a stage, I was in a black pit surrounded

447
00:24:00,000 --> 00:24:03,879
Speaker 1: by amorphous beings representing all the human connections in my life,

448
00:24:04,200 --> 00:24:08,440
Speaker 1: towering around me my ego, and they all said simultaneously,

449
00:24:08,680 --> 00:24:11,240
Speaker 1: you are no more. My sense of self kind of

450
00:24:11,280 --> 00:24:14,359
Speaker 1: just evaporated into everything, as if the universe was in

451
00:24:14,400 --> 00:24:18,720
Speaker 1: a high intropy state and all particles were homogeneously spread

452
00:24:18,760 --> 00:24:21,200
Speaker 1: over the universe and I just became part of that.

453
00:24:21,680 --> 00:24:25,800
Speaker 1: After this, the particles started to reconstitute into points of connection,

454
00:24:25,880 --> 00:24:28,440
Speaker 1: representing all the people in my life, with a connection

455
00:24:28,480 --> 00:24:31,800
Speaker 1: between all of them, including me. What I observed was

456
00:24:31,840 --> 00:24:35,000
Speaker 1: that life is a giant web of connections with mental energy,

457
00:24:35,280 --> 00:24:40,159
Speaker 1: not quacky pyramid b as, flowing between all these connections.

458
00:24:40,400 --> 00:24:43,199
Speaker 1: If a connection is faulty, it restricts flow in a

459
00:24:43,200 --> 00:24:45,879
Speaker 1: certain part of this cloud and drains the amount of

460
00:24:45,960 --> 00:24:48,760
Speaker 1: energy you have to keep the system in balance. So

461
00:24:48,840 --> 00:24:51,679
Speaker 1: the solution would be to either fix the connection or

462
00:24:51,680 --> 00:24:55,359
Speaker 1: sever it, allowing space for more positive experiences and connections

463
00:24:55,359 --> 00:24:57,720
Speaker 1: with people. I know it all sounds very subjective, and

464
00:24:57,760 --> 00:24:59,560
Speaker 1: honestly it is, but I find a lot of comfort

465
00:24:59,560 --> 00:25:02,560
Speaker 1: in the site you. Three weeks later, I still feel

466
00:25:02,560 --> 00:25:05,720
Speaker 1: like I've returned from a three month vacation. Things are

467
00:25:05,760 --> 00:25:08,400
Speaker 1: going a lot better than it used to. I realized

468
00:25:08,440 --> 00:25:11,120
Speaker 1: that if life consists of fifty fifty good and bad,

469
00:25:11,400 --> 00:25:13,720
Speaker 1: and you can see fifty of the bad things as

470
00:25:13,800 --> 00:25:17,240
Speaker 1: either neutral or good, then of your life will be good.

471
00:25:17,600 --> 00:25:21,120
Speaker 1: It's not about the arbitrary energy that you supposedly send

472
00:25:21,119 --> 00:25:23,680
Speaker 1: out into the universe that draws in good energy. It's

473
00:25:23,680 --> 00:25:26,879
Speaker 1: about your perspective on life. If your observation bias is

474
00:25:26,920 --> 00:25:29,840
Speaker 1: dial towards the positive, then your life will seem more positive.

475
00:25:29,880 --> 00:25:32,720
Speaker 1: Weird thing is my sense of self hasn't really returned,

476
00:25:32,760 --> 00:25:35,200
Speaker 1: which feels odd and fantastic at the same time. I'm

477
00:25:35,200 --> 00:25:38,159
Speaker 1: not religious or spiritual in any sense, and if you

478
00:25:38,200 --> 00:25:40,919
Speaker 1: stop worrying about the self, you have the capacity to

479
00:25:40,960 --> 00:25:43,600
Speaker 1: help others anyway. Love the podcast guys. I recommend it

480
00:25:43,600 --> 00:25:45,360
Speaker 1: to most of my friends and will keep listening as

481
00:25:45,400 --> 00:25:48,000
Speaker 1: long as you make it. Oh well, thank you so much.

482
00:25:48,080 --> 00:25:51,800
Speaker 1: That's a nice message. And I'm so interested in the

483
00:25:51,840 --> 00:25:57,440
Speaker 1: way that the brains generate these visual metaphors. It's extremely common,

484
00:25:57,440 --> 00:25:59,800
Speaker 1: I mean, not unique to this message. You know. It's

485
00:26:00,359 --> 00:26:02,600
Speaker 1: probably at least half of the trip reports out there

486
00:26:02,640 --> 00:26:05,480
Speaker 1: have something like this where people talk about their psychedelic

487
00:26:05,560 --> 00:26:10,720
Speaker 1: experience being not just a sort of abstract revelation about,

488
00:26:10,760 --> 00:26:13,280
Speaker 1: you know, their relationships and their emotions and all that,

489
00:26:13,680 --> 00:26:18,320
Speaker 1: but that they get a concrete visual metaphor through which

490
00:26:18,359 --> 00:26:22,960
Speaker 1: they picture these revelations. I remember in Michael Pollan's book

491
00:26:23,040 --> 00:26:25,600
Speaker 1: you Know, which we read for that series, he talks

492
00:26:25,640 --> 00:26:30,080
Speaker 1: about his experiences um having revelations about his relationships and

493
00:26:30,160 --> 00:26:34,280
Speaker 1: his family. In one case, he talks about like envisioning

494
00:26:34,280 --> 00:26:37,560
Speaker 1: this giant building made out of like beams of wood

495
00:26:37,640 --> 00:26:41,320
Speaker 1: and all that, and like that the structure somehow represented

496
00:26:41,359 --> 00:26:44,679
Speaker 1: to him these these feelings he was having about his

497
00:26:44,680 --> 00:26:47,240
Speaker 1: his parents and his children and all that. Uh. And

498
00:26:47,240 --> 00:26:50,520
Speaker 1: another one was like feeling this way about the images

499
00:26:50,600 --> 00:26:53,080
Speaker 1: of oak trees and a meadow. Why is it that

500
00:26:53,119 --> 00:26:55,760
Speaker 1: the brain doesn't just say like, oh, I should focus

501
00:26:55,800 --> 00:26:59,280
Speaker 1: more on having positive relationships with my parents or something

502
00:26:59,359 --> 00:27:01,280
Speaker 1: like that. Why is it that, like it gives you

503
00:27:01,320 --> 00:27:04,280
Speaker 1: a picture that shows that to you? Yeah, I mean

504
00:27:04,320 --> 00:27:06,840
Speaker 1: because because in a way, we're getting into some sort

505
00:27:06,840 --> 00:27:11,240
Speaker 1: of like a non linguistic communication, right or or what

506
00:27:11,240 --> 00:27:15,439
Speaker 1: what would be the description, like a translinguistic object in

507
00:27:15,520 --> 00:27:20,919
Speaker 1: your mind? Um. Terence McKenna, you know, talks about a

508
00:27:20,960 --> 00:27:24,280
Speaker 1: lot of things like this in his his writings. Uh uh, though,

509
00:27:24,320 --> 00:27:26,000
Speaker 1: I mean in a lot of those writings, it's going

510
00:27:26,040 --> 00:27:29,520
Speaker 1: beyond merely perceiving like a complex metaphor, but interacting with

511
00:27:29,560 --> 00:27:32,399
Speaker 1: the complex metaphor and sort of the course dissecting that

512
00:27:32,520 --> 00:27:35,679
Speaker 1: metaphor later on and with drawing conclusions from it. It

513
00:27:35,720 --> 00:27:38,080
Speaker 1: totally goes beyond. Yeah, if you're you're thinking like, Okay,

514
00:27:38,119 --> 00:27:43,160
Speaker 1: I'm not just perceiving in my imagination imagery that reveals

515
00:27:43,240 --> 00:27:46,240
Speaker 1: something to me, but actually, like I'm thinking that there

516
00:27:46,440 --> 00:27:49,280
Speaker 1: is some physical other thing out there that I'm just

517
00:27:49,600 --> 00:27:52,800
Speaker 1: perceiving as I would perceive objects in my environment, which

518
00:27:52,840 --> 00:27:56,120
Speaker 1: to some extent McKenna actually thought he did experience, right, Like, Yeah,

519
00:27:56,240 --> 00:27:58,280
Speaker 1: though I've been kind of I've been looking around at

520
00:27:58,840 --> 00:28:02,560
Speaker 1: people's different takes on that, Like basically the question to

521
00:28:02,640 --> 00:28:05,359
Speaker 1: what extent did did McKenna believe in some of these

522
00:28:05,440 --> 00:28:09,920
Speaker 1: reads that he discussed on, you know, psychedelic visions, And

523
00:28:09,960 --> 00:28:12,200
Speaker 1: you know, some argue that, well, you know, it's it's

524
00:28:12,240 --> 00:28:15,040
Speaker 1: not so much that he necessarily believed in all of

525
00:28:15,080 --> 00:28:17,880
Speaker 1: these things, but was encouraging people to you know, consider

526
00:28:18,240 --> 00:28:21,119
Speaker 1: alternate reason reality and also just sort of like pulling

527
00:28:21,160 --> 00:28:24,280
Speaker 1: the thread of a particular idea and just you know,

528
00:28:24,359 --> 00:28:25,879
Speaker 1: keep pulling it to see how much of it you

529
00:28:25,920 --> 00:28:28,400
Speaker 1: can get? What happens if you follow the rabbit hole

530
00:28:28,720 --> 00:28:32,119
Speaker 1: of this particular notion, where does it lead you? And

531
00:28:32,160 --> 00:28:34,679
Speaker 1: I think I do see that. And I'm currently reading

532
00:28:34,840 --> 00:28:38,320
Speaker 1: a collection of his um like interviews and writing titled

533
00:28:38,320 --> 00:28:41,080
Speaker 1: The Archaic Revival, And and you do see that, Like

534
00:28:41,200 --> 00:28:43,440
Speaker 1: it's you can't take all the ideas in the book

535
00:28:43,800 --> 00:28:47,040
Speaker 1: and line them up and like construct necessarily like the

536
00:28:47,160 --> 00:28:50,560
Speaker 1: Terrence Terence mckinna mythos, you know, because it's because it's

537
00:28:50,560 --> 00:28:52,520
Speaker 1: like he's exploring one idea here and he's talking about

538
00:28:52,560 --> 00:28:54,800
Speaker 1: another one here. Uh well, I guess that comes back

539
00:28:54,800 --> 00:28:58,040
Speaker 1: to the the interesting quality of a ridicality or or

540
00:28:58,120 --> 00:29:02,480
Speaker 1: the noetic quality, right, that there's this feeling that so

541
00:29:02,520 --> 00:29:05,360
Speaker 1: many people get about their psychedelic experiences that it wasn't

542
00:29:05,440 --> 00:29:10,360
Speaker 1: just an interesting experience, but that it revealed something objectively true,

543
00:29:11,120 --> 00:29:14,520
Speaker 1: which is such a strange and interesting quality. And one

544
00:29:14,560 --> 00:29:17,680
Speaker 1: way you could look at it is that maybe what

545
00:29:17,800 --> 00:29:21,240
Speaker 1: it does is it kind of it not that it

546
00:29:21,320 --> 00:29:24,160
Speaker 1: makes people believe that a hallucination they had on a

547
00:29:24,240 --> 00:29:28,240
Speaker 1: high dose of psilocybin was a literal, physical object that's

548
00:29:28,240 --> 00:29:30,440
Speaker 1: out there that they encountered, but it more sort of

549
00:29:30,480 --> 00:29:35,800
Speaker 1: like increases your willingness to suspend disbelief when entertaining metaphors

550
00:29:35,880 --> 00:29:38,719
Speaker 1: and stuff. Does that make sense, It's like allows you

551
00:29:38,760 --> 00:29:41,440
Speaker 1: to get into the story of a movie more without

552
00:29:41,880 --> 00:29:44,080
Speaker 1: stepping out and thinking this is just a movie. It

553
00:29:44,280 --> 00:29:47,520
Speaker 1: just sort of like opens you up to going with

554
00:29:47,600 --> 00:29:50,760
Speaker 1: an idea for longer than you normally would without without

555
00:29:50,760 --> 00:29:54,880
Speaker 1: getting embarrassed about it or thinking like, Okay, that's that's silly, yeah, yeah,

556
00:29:54,960 --> 00:29:58,120
Speaker 1: or be getting drawn back into the the egoic mind

557
00:29:58,200 --> 00:30:01,400
Speaker 1: and and thinking about this, pulling out the old toys,

558
00:30:01,520 --> 00:30:04,040
Speaker 1: you know, the toys of of the past and the

559
00:30:04,040 --> 00:30:06,520
Speaker 1: toys of the future. If to worry about and being

560
00:30:06,520 --> 00:30:09,400
Speaker 1: able to focus on this. You know what is often

561
00:30:09,560 --> 00:30:11,640
Speaker 1: and in so many of these cases, it's it's some

562
00:30:11,720 --> 00:30:14,480
Speaker 1: sort of metaphor that is that is bound up in

563
00:30:14,560 --> 00:30:19,160
Speaker 1: empathy and uh and uh, you know it's it's it's

564
00:30:19,160 --> 00:30:22,720
Speaker 1: not the necessarily the kind of of you know, ultimately

565
00:30:22,760 --> 00:30:26,280
Speaker 1: like positive imagery that one is going to dwell on,

566
00:30:26,480 --> 00:30:28,480
Speaker 1: because what we two, we tend to dwell on. We

567
00:30:28,520 --> 00:30:31,600
Speaker 1: tend to dwell on things, things from the past that

568
00:30:31,640 --> 00:30:34,080
Speaker 1: we're we're great and we wish we had again, or

569
00:30:34,160 --> 00:30:36,520
Speaker 1: things in the past that hurt us, and then likewise

570
00:30:36,560 --> 00:30:39,360
Speaker 1: gazing into the future and fantasizing about the things that

571
00:30:39,400 --> 00:30:42,000
Speaker 1: could hurt us or make us happy. Uh. And then

572
00:30:42,200 --> 00:30:45,120
Speaker 1: you know, it's in so often it's the metaphor in

573
00:30:45,240 --> 00:30:49,000
Speaker 1: play in our first message that we read in in

574
00:30:49,040 --> 00:30:52,080
Speaker 1: this one and also in the example from Michael Pollan's book,

575
00:30:52,240 --> 00:30:54,200
Speaker 1: it's based kind of in the present. It's like, what

576
00:30:54,240 --> 00:30:57,080
Speaker 1: do I have now that is important and of value? Yeah,

577
00:30:57,280 --> 00:30:59,760
Speaker 1: and and so many It also just seems funny that

578
00:30:59,840 --> 00:31:03,640
Speaker 1: so many of these revelations and metaphors that people have

579
00:31:04,480 --> 00:31:08,760
Speaker 1: during their experiences are about love. Yeah, it's always about love.

580
00:31:08,800 --> 00:31:13,280
Speaker 1: It's like statements that people might normally find kind of

581
00:31:13,360 --> 00:31:17,960
Speaker 1: embarrassingly trite or but now take on a new profundity. Yeah,

582
00:31:18,160 --> 00:31:20,120
Speaker 1: you don't see a lot of accounts where people are like, yeah,

583
00:31:20,160 --> 00:31:22,040
Speaker 1: I had a psychedelic experience and I realized they need

584
00:31:22,040 --> 00:31:24,800
Speaker 1: to kick people more. Why am I not kicking people?

585
00:31:24,920 --> 00:31:27,120
Speaker 1: I mean, I'm not ruling out that possibility that could

586
00:31:27,200 --> 00:31:29,040
Speaker 1: happen with some people. But you don't hear that kind

587
00:31:29,080 --> 00:31:31,720
Speaker 1: of thing much. Yeah, more often you hear stuff like

588
00:31:32,360 --> 00:31:36,160
Speaker 1: I realized that love is everything, and you know, you

589
00:31:36,320 --> 00:31:40,480
Speaker 1: not having the experience, might hear somebody say that and say, Okay, yeah,

590
00:31:40,640 --> 00:31:42,680
Speaker 1: you know I could have told you. You know, there's

591
00:31:43,400 --> 00:31:45,880
Speaker 1: you want to hear some more Beatles lyrics, But it is.

592
00:31:45,920 --> 00:31:48,200
Speaker 1: It's the stuff of lyrics. It's the stuff of of

593
00:31:48,200 --> 00:31:51,520
Speaker 1: of bumper stickers. But but but the actually felt is

594
00:31:51,560 --> 00:31:55,760
Speaker 1: the thing. It's truly felt. Is it for the first time?

595
00:31:55,840 --> 00:32:00,560
Speaker 1: Sometimes yes, totally. Okay, looks like we're going to move

596
00:32:00,600 --> 00:32:04,360
Speaker 1: on to the next one. Uh, this one starts. Hey, guys,

597
00:32:04,520 --> 00:32:05,960
Speaker 1: I just wanted to let you know that I really

598
00:32:06,040 --> 00:32:09,320
Speaker 1: enjoyed your series on psychedelics and wanted to share my experiences.

599
00:32:09,760 --> 00:32:12,000
Speaker 1: Each spring and fall, I and a few other guys

600
00:32:12,040 --> 00:32:14,600
Speaker 1: go up to my friend's cottage to open or close

601
00:32:14,640 --> 00:32:17,120
Speaker 1: it for the season. For the last few years we've

602
00:32:17,120 --> 00:32:20,840
Speaker 1: taken this opportunity to take magic mushrooms. His cottage is

603
00:32:20,880 --> 00:32:23,240
Speaker 1: located on a fairly small island, which makes it a

604
00:32:23,240 --> 00:32:25,720
Speaker 1: great place to go for a wander without a risk

605
00:32:25,760 --> 00:32:28,640
Speaker 1: of getting lost. But we always make sure to stick together,

606
00:32:28,720 --> 00:32:30,560
Speaker 1: even if one of us is lost in the shapes

607
00:32:30,600 --> 00:32:33,240
Speaker 1: of the clouds and someone else is pondering the moss

608
00:32:33,240 --> 00:32:36,080
Speaker 1: on a rock. We've always had good experiences, and for

609
00:32:36,120 --> 00:32:38,360
Speaker 1: the following weeks and months, the world seems like a

610
00:32:38,400 --> 00:32:41,040
Speaker 1: brighter place. As you said at the beginning of your series,

611
00:32:41,080 --> 00:32:43,440
Speaker 1: it's like someone opens a window, and even after the

612
00:32:43,440 --> 00:32:46,480
Speaker 1: window was closed, the air feels a little fresher. I've

613
00:32:46,520 --> 00:32:49,360
Speaker 1: had some very interesting experiences on my trips. Most of

614
00:32:49,360 --> 00:32:52,680
Speaker 1: the time the effects are fairly standard visual hallucinations and

615
00:32:52,720 --> 00:32:55,600
Speaker 1: a general feeling of euphoria. But on our last adventure,

616
00:32:55,680 --> 00:32:58,560
Speaker 1: we went for it and took Terence McKenna's heroic dose

617
00:32:58,640 --> 00:33:01,280
Speaker 1: of five brams. I should just throw in that this

618
00:33:01,360 --> 00:33:03,960
Speaker 1: is something he he mentioned in some of the writings

619
00:33:03,960 --> 00:33:07,040
Speaker 1: I'm reading now, and basically his argument was, look if

620
00:33:07,080 --> 00:33:10,360
Speaker 1: you're going to take psychedelics, don't play around. Take a

621
00:33:10,400 --> 00:33:14,240
Speaker 1: heroic dose so that you can like really experience the thing.

622
00:33:14,640 --> 00:33:16,680
Speaker 1: Uh you know, I agree or disagree with that as

623
00:33:16,720 --> 00:33:19,400
Speaker 1: you like. But that's that's what people were talking about

624
00:33:19,400 --> 00:33:23,760
Speaker 1: when they're talking about Terence McKenna's five grams. Uh So,

625
00:33:23,960 --> 00:33:26,960
Speaker 1: the writer here continues. This resulted in a much more

626
00:33:27,040 --> 00:33:30,600
Speaker 1: cerebral experience. I could see the surface of my mind

627
00:33:30,640 --> 00:33:33,360
Speaker 1: again this visual metaphor. I could see the surface of

628
00:33:33,400 --> 00:33:36,320
Speaker 1: my mind and had the feeling that small ten drils

629
00:33:36,320 --> 00:33:40,520
Speaker 1: were extending off and connecting to another level beyond regular consciousness.

630
00:33:41,040 --> 00:33:42,960
Speaker 1: In that time, I felt like I had a perfect

631
00:33:43,000 --> 00:33:46,120
Speaker 1: understanding of so many things, the origins of art, the

632
00:33:46,200 --> 00:33:49,280
Speaker 1: meaning of family, the intricacies of society, and even some

633
00:33:49,360 --> 00:33:53,400
Speaker 1: religious thoughts from a non religious person. Unfortunately, my descent

634
00:33:53,440 --> 00:33:55,560
Speaker 1: to reality was much harder than it had been on

635
00:33:55,640 --> 00:33:58,719
Speaker 1: lighter doses, and the fresh feeling didn't stick with me.

636
00:33:59,080 --> 00:34:01,200
Speaker 1: I'm looking forward to are closing this fall, and I

637
00:34:01,280 --> 00:34:03,160
Speaker 1: hope I can strike a balance in the dose and

638
00:34:03,200 --> 00:34:05,800
Speaker 1: get the best of both worlds. I also wanted to

639
00:34:05,840 --> 00:34:08,600
Speaker 1: thank you for your approach to the conversation. My wife

640
00:34:08,600 --> 00:34:10,239
Speaker 1: and I grew up the same way you did, with

641
00:34:10,280 --> 00:34:12,839
Speaker 1: the dangers of drugs being pushed on us at every turn,

642
00:34:13,160 --> 00:34:15,040
Speaker 1: so she has a bit of apprehension when it comes

643
00:34:15,120 --> 00:34:17,160
Speaker 1: to things like this. We listen to a few of

644
00:34:17,160 --> 00:34:19,279
Speaker 1: the episodes together, and I think it opened her mind

645
00:34:19,320 --> 00:34:21,759
Speaker 1: a little to the idea that mushrooms can be beneficial.

646
00:34:22,120 --> 00:34:23,799
Speaker 1: Maybe one day she will be ready and we can

647
00:34:23,840 --> 00:34:27,360
Speaker 1: go explore together. Thanks again, Well, I like that, But

648
00:34:27,440 --> 00:34:29,879
Speaker 1: then again, I mean I want to emphasize that every

649
00:34:29,880 --> 00:34:33,120
Speaker 1: everybody's got to make decisions for themselves and inform themselves

650
00:34:33,120 --> 00:34:36,399
Speaker 1: on these things. So we're not encouraging people to take psychedelics.

651
00:34:36,400 --> 00:34:38,680
Speaker 1: We're just trying to describe what, you know, what, what's

652
00:34:38,719 --> 00:34:41,680
Speaker 1: out there, what the literature says. Yeah, choosing to to

653
00:34:41,800 --> 00:34:46,239
Speaker 1: never try psychedelics, who is a perfectly valid choice. Um. Yeah,

654
00:34:46,280 --> 00:34:49,279
Speaker 1: We we don't advocate, you know, pressuring anybody or bore

655
00:34:49,680 --> 00:34:53,799
Speaker 1: dosing Richard Nixon with them right, all right, here's another one.

656
00:34:54,120 --> 00:34:57,880
Speaker 1: This listener rides Hi Joe, Hi, Robert. I'm an occasional

657
00:34:57,920 --> 00:35:00,200
Speaker 1: listener of your podcast, choosing the topics that inter me

658
00:35:00,280 --> 00:35:02,440
Speaker 1: most and saving the others for when I have more time,

659
00:35:02,760 --> 00:35:05,279
Speaker 1: because unlike other podcasts that I can listen to while

660
00:35:05,320 --> 00:35:07,840
Speaker 1: doing other stuff. Yours requires my complete attention in a

661
00:35:07,880 --> 00:35:11,280
Speaker 1: good way. Your recent Psychedelic series, though, had me drop

662
00:35:11,320 --> 00:35:14,279
Speaker 1: everything right at the second each episode was available. Your

663
00:35:14,440 --> 00:35:16,960
Speaker 1: research and personal insights were eye opening to a subject

664
00:35:16,960 --> 00:35:19,800
Speaker 1: that I hadn't really considered before. Your reports of several

665
00:35:19,840 --> 00:35:22,920
Speaker 1: studies where people described communicating with the gods had me

666
00:35:22,960 --> 00:35:28,760
Speaker 1: thinking about the three big monotheistic religions Christianity, Judaism, Islam uh.

667
00:35:28,800 --> 00:35:31,520
Speaker 1: They all forbid the use of mind altering substances to

668
00:35:31,600 --> 00:35:34,720
Speaker 1: various degrees, the key probably being that one should always

669
00:35:34,719 --> 00:35:37,400
Speaker 1: be in control of one action one's actions and not

670
00:35:37,520 --> 00:35:41,719
Speaker 1: be able to to excuse one's shortcomings with being under

671
00:35:41,719 --> 00:35:44,359
Speaker 1: the influence of drugs. But I'm wondering if this could

672
00:35:44,360 --> 00:35:47,000
Speaker 1: also be interpreted as the religious leaders having had a

673
00:35:47,080 --> 00:35:50,600
Speaker 1: real experience of talking to God while on SI gets psychedelics,

674
00:35:50,600 --> 00:35:53,719
Speaker 1: and subsequently trying to prevent others from experiencing the same thing.

675
00:35:54,239 --> 00:35:56,799
Speaker 1: The motive could be oppression and less for power. But

676
00:35:56,840 --> 00:35:59,960
Speaker 1: then Jesus and later Mohammad were like, nah, I don't

677
00:36:00,040 --> 00:36:02,920
Speaker 1: care about that. About what Abraham and Moses said, I

678
00:36:02,960 --> 00:36:05,399
Speaker 1: want to have as much fun as that goat over

679
00:36:05,440 --> 00:36:09,200
Speaker 1: there that ate some weird looking mushroom and God talking

680
00:36:09,360 --> 00:36:11,960
Speaker 1: to them too. Another thought I had while listening was

681
00:36:12,200 --> 00:36:15,000
Speaker 1: Michael Pollen, huh like the cookbook guy. Weird case of

682
00:36:15,040 --> 00:36:18,440
Speaker 1: two people with the same name. But well he you know,

683
00:36:18,760 --> 00:36:20,800
Speaker 1: well maybe he did stuff about food. He's done a

684
00:36:20,840 --> 00:36:23,400
Speaker 1: lot about food, and is I think previous book was

685
00:36:23,440 --> 00:36:25,880
Speaker 1: about like you know, um, you know, he talked about

686
00:36:26,120 --> 00:36:30,400
Speaker 1: a lot about like culinary traditions, and well, our our

687
00:36:30,080 --> 00:36:33,440
Speaker 1: our producer Maya just chimed in and pointed out that

688
00:36:33,440 --> 00:36:36,120
Speaker 1: he did a Cooked series on Netflix. Unless I actually

689
00:36:36,120 --> 00:36:40,160
Speaker 1: watched this series, it's it's excellent anywhere, our listener continues.

690
00:36:40,360 --> 00:36:42,160
Speaker 1: But then I decided to look up the book you

691
00:36:42,200 --> 00:36:45,360
Speaker 1: reference so much, and it's the exact same guy. My

692
00:36:45,480 --> 00:36:49,200
Speaker 1: second favorite cookbook author ever, second only to Samine nos Frott,

693
00:36:49,400 --> 00:36:52,480
Speaker 1: who literally refers to to him as one of her

694
00:36:52,480 --> 00:36:57,479
Speaker 1: biggest mentors, inspirations, and supporters. His next Netflix series and book,

695
00:36:57,520 --> 00:37:01,160
Speaker 1: Cooked Heir sparked my interest into the more science e

696
00:37:01,880 --> 00:37:05,320
Speaker 1: side of cooking, why fermentation is so important, how nutrition works,

697
00:37:05,520 --> 00:37:08,439
Speaker 1: and why some modern foods make a sick spoiler, It's

698
00:37:08,480 --> 00:37:11,800
Speaker 1: most likely neither lactose nor gluten. He dives into different

699
00:37:11,800 --> 00:37:14,799
Speaker 1: cultures and cuisines with genuine curiosity and respect and not

700
00:37:14,880 --> 00:37:18,160
Speaker 1: elevating himself and his personal knowledge above the more traditional

701
00:37:18,160 --> 00:37:20,400
Speaker 1: ways of cooking. What I'm basically trying to say is

702
00:37:20,560 --> 00:37:22,919
Speaker 1: he would be a phenomenal guest on to your show,

703
00:37:22,960 --> 00:37:25,480
Speaker 1: whether you want to talk about food, psychedelics, or general

704
00:37:25,680 --> 00:37:28,520
Speaker 1: cultural developments. If you've actually made it this far, thank

705
00:37:28,560 --> 00:37:30,480
Speaker 1: you for reading through my whole rant about things you

706
00:37:30,600 --> 00:37:33,000
Speaker 1: probably already know, and thank you for making such a

707
00:37:33,000 --> 00:37:36,799
Speaker 1: phenomenal podcast. Have a great week. Uh well, thanks for

708
00:37:36,800 --> 00:37:41,080
Speaker 1: getting in touch. I would say that, um, there are

709
00:37:41,080 --> 00:37:43,560
Speaker 1: a lot of theories people have about the roles of

710
00:37:43,600 --> 00:37:46,400
Speaker 1: psychedelics in the origin of religions, and I think a

711
00:37:46,480 --> 00:37:49,040
Speaker 1: lot of these theories are obviously going to be difficult

712
00:37:49,040 --> 00:37:51,600
Speaker 1: to prove. So it's just kind of like people offering

713
00:37:51,680 --> 00:37:55,600
Speaker 1: speculations of that may to various extents conform or not

714
00:37:55,640 --> 00:37:58,200
Speaker 1: conformed to the evidence we already have, but it's hard

715
00:37:58,239 --> 00:38:00,799
Speaker 1: to prove these things right. But it's like the food

716
00:38:00,800 --> 00:38:03,560
Speaker 1: of the God's argument jas MCKINNI made, like it's it's

717
00:38:03,680 --> 00:38:06,759
Speaker 1: a very interesting argument, but ultimately it's nothing you could

718
00:38:06,880 --> 00:38:09,439
Speaker 1: ever actually prove, yeah, or at least not in any

719
00:38:09,440 --> 00:38:11,880
Speaker 1: way we can imagine now. I mean, who knows what

720
00:38:11,920 --> 00:38:13,759
Speaker 1: we could prove given evidence we don't know about, but

721
00:38:13,800 --> 00:38:18,160
Speaker 1: it seems unlikely at least. Um. But with these things,

722
00:38:18,200 --> 00:38:20,520
Speaker 1: I mean, one thing I would say is that I

723
00:38:20,560 --> 00:38:22,480
Speaker 1: think it's not hard to see why a lot of

724
00:38:22,520 --> 00:38:26,560
Speaker 1: religions would place limitations on the use of mind altering

725
00:38:26,560 --> 00:38:30,120
Speaker 1: substances of various kinds, even the kinds of radically different effects.

726
00:38:30,120 --> 00:38:32,799
Speaker 1: I mean that that they might have the same kind

727
00:38:32,840 --> 00:38:36,360
Speaker 1: of attitude towards alcohol that they have towards psilocybin mushrooms,

728
00:38:36,360 --> 00:38:39,040
Speaker 1: and these are extremely different compounds that are different things

729
00:38:39,040 --> 00:38:41,839
Speaker 1: to the brain. Um. But but yeah, I think there's

730
00:38:41,960 --> 00:38:45,000
Speaker 1: there's like a complex interplay of different pressures going on there.

731
00:38:45,000 --> 00:38:48,320
Speaker 1: I think one is just sort of like a social

732
00:38:48,520 --> 00:38:51,760
Speaker 1: orderliness pressure, with the idea that you sort of mentioned

733
00:38:51,760 --> 00:38:55,480
Speaker 1: in the email that like drugs can induce changes in behavior,

734
00:38:55,680 --> 00:38:59,160
Speaker 1: drugs can lower people's inhibitions and uh, and you just

735
00:38:59,280 --> 00:39:03,360
Speaker 1: generally don't want people having excuses for bad behavior that

736
00:39:03,400 --> 00:39:06,960
Speaker 1: are chemical in nature. Yea. Um. But another thing I

737
00:39:06,960 --> 00:39:09,280
Speaker 1: think I mentioned in the episodes, and I still pretty

738
00:39:09,280 --> 00:39:12,399
Speaker 1: firmly believe is that there is definitely a threat from

739
00:39:12,440 --> 00:39:17,480
Speaker 1: specifically psychedelics. There's a threat to organized religions that have

740
00:39:17,520 --> 00:39:22,080
Speaker 1: a set number of like doctrines and dogmas, because psychedelics

741
00:39:22,320 --> 00:39:24,400
Speaker 1: very often tend to cause people to believe they have

742
00:39:24,480 --> 00:39:27,759
Speaker 1: had new revelations, you know, like God has talked to

743
00:39:27,800 --> 00:39:29,839
Speaker 1: me now, and now I in fact see that here

744
00:39:29,840 --> 00:39:32,279
Speaker 1: are the new things we should believe. And of course

745
00:39:32,320 --> 00:39:35,399
Speaker 1: that's a challenge to the authority of the existing church,

746
00:39:35,440 --> 00:39:38,560
Speaker 1: which has like a doctrinal statement. Yeah. And of course

747
00:39:39,239 --> 00:39:43,000
Speaker 1: these types of revelations can occur without psychedelics and do

748
00:39:43,040 --> 00:39:46,480
Speaker 1: occur without psychedelics, And the history is full of individuals

749
00:39:46,480 --> 00:39:51,080
Speaker 1: who likely had obtained the revelation uh, you know, viet

750
00:39:51,160 --> 00:39:54,840
Speaker 1: non drug related means, and then end up posing a

751
00:39:54,880 --> 00:39:57,279
Speaker 1: problem to the established religion. You know, suddenly you have

752
00:39:57,320 --> 00:40:01,160
Speaker 1: a new heresy, and generally organized religions don't take kindly

753
00:40:01,239 --> 00:40:04,680
Speaker 1: to heresies, uh, and they have to be squashed, right.

754
00:40:05,280 --> 00:40:07,560
Speaker 1: Another I think thing to think to keep in mind

755
00:40:07,640 --> 00:40:09,640
Speaker 1: is that so many of these different substances. When we're

756
00:40:09,640 --> 00:40:13,239
Speaker 1: looking historically, we're dealing with with something very regional, and

757
00:40:13,239 --> 00:40:15,440
Speaker 1: we're dealing dealing with something that is tied to traditional

758
00:40:15,520 --> 00:40:20,239
Speaker 1: regional practices and then incomes a major religion. It's these

759
00:40:20,280 --> 00:40:24,839
Speaker 1: major religions tend to uh be you know, evangelical, they

760
00:40:24,880 --> 00:40:29,080
Speaker 1: tend to be They're expanding their domain, and in doing

761
00:40:29,160 --> 00:40:34,880
Speaker 1: so they are absorbing and crushing traditional practices. And and

762
00:40:34,960 --> 00:40:38,040
Speaker 1: part of that is is crushing whatever kind of you know,

763
00:40:38,120 --> 00:40:41,319
Speaker 1: medicinal practices they have in place. Yeah, and uh and

764
00:40:41,320 --> 00:40:43,680
Speaker 1: of course we don't mean that necessarily as an indictment

765
00:40:43,680 --> 00:40:45,600
Speaker 1: of people who believe in these religions, but all kind

766
00:40:45,600 --> 00:40:49,840
Speaker 1: of like Christianity, Islam, Buddhism, even they all at various

767
00:40:49,840 --> 00:40:54,320
Speaker 1: points were expansionist religions that were sort of obliterating local,

768
00:40:54,600 --> 00:40:58,040
Speaker 1: regional religious practices that people had before them. Yeah. Yeah,

769
00:40:58,040 --> 00:41:01,040
Speaker 1: I mean it's just the it's the nature of of

770
00:41:01,120 --> 00:41:03,000
Speaker 1: these of ideas. And you can look at it in

771
00:41:03,080 --> 00:41:04,600
Speaker 1: two ways. You can look at it is like, okay,

772
00:41:04,640 --> 00:41:08,040
Speaker 1: here's the big you know, dominant religion coming in and

773
00:41:08,080 --> 00:41:09,880
Speaker 1: just destroying everything in its path, and think of it

774
00:41:09,960 --> 00:41:12,480
Speaker 1: like a like a mold taking over something. But you

775
00:41:12,480 --> 00:41:15,479
Speaker 1: can also look at it if you want, you can say, well,

776
00:41:15,680 --> 00:41:17,680
Speaker 1: here are just some really good ideas that someone had

777
00:41:17,680 --> 00:41:19,439
Speaker 1: about how to live your life and so of course

778
00:41:19,480 --> 00:41:21,040
Speaker 1: they're going to expand of course they're going to be

779
00:41:21,040 --> 00:41:24,600
Speaker 1: adopted by people who can benefit from them. I think

780
00:41:24,680 --> 00:41:27,640
Speaker 1: ultimately you have a mix of these two factors in

781
00:41:27,640 --> 00:41:30,279
Speaker 1: the expansion of any religion. There are things that are

782
00:41:30,520 --> 00:41:33,080
Speaker 1: doing people good and therefore they expand, And then of

783
00:41:33,080 --> 00:41:39,120
Speaker 1: course there's just the inevitable conflict of different ideas, different cosmologies,

784
00:41:39,160 --> 00:41:42,440
Speaker 1: bump bumping heads, like something's there's gonna be a certain

785
00:41:42,440 --> 00:41:46,399
Speaker 1: amount of of synthesis that takes place, but something's gonna

786
00:41:46,480 --> 00:41:49,560
Speaker 1: gonna also be left, you know, on the cutting room floor,

787
00:41:49,680 --> 00:41:52,560
Speaker 1: and something is going to more or less win. Yeah. Now,

788
00:41:52,600 --> 00:41:55,640
Speaker 1: more directly to exactly what the writer here says, uh,

789
00:41:56,120 --> 00:41:58,839
Speaker 1: I don't necessarily assume or think that there's any good

790
00:41:58,880 --> 00:42:01,920
Speaker 1: evidence to assume that the founders of you know, more

791
00:42:01,920 --> 00:42:07,080
Speaker 1: recent revelatory religions were themselves taking psychedelics. I don't necessarily

792
00:42:07,160 --> 00:42:10,279
Speaker 1: see any evidence of that, especially because we know that

793
00:42:10,320 --> 00:42:13,439
Speaker 1: some people spontaneously have these types of mystical experiences without

794
00:42:13,480 --> 00:42:17,080
Speaker 1: the use of psychedelics, and also because a lot of

795
00:42:17,120 --> 00:42:21,840
Speaker 1: times the prohibitions that you're talking about against mind altering

796
00:42:21,880 --> 00:42:24,960
Speaker 1: substances are not spoken directly by the people who have

797
00:42:25,080 --> 00:42:29,600
Speaker 1: these revelations themselves. I mean, Jesus never said anywhere that

798
00:42:29,760 --> 00:42:33,279
Speaker 1: is recorded that one should not take psychedelic substances. That's

799
00:42:33,320 --> 00:42:35,839
Speaker 1: just not to be found in the Bible. All right, Well,

800
00:42:35,840 --> 00:42:37,359
Speaker 1: on that note, we're going to take one more break

801
00:42:37,360 --> 00:42:43,160
Speaker 1: when we come back. More listener mail. Thank alright, we're back. Okay.

802
00:42:43,200 --> 00:42:47,360
Speaker 1: The next message starts, Hey guys. Uh. The writer says

803
00:42:47,440 --> 00:42:51,120
Speaker 1: that we produce their favorite media and says some needlessly

804
00:42:51,160 --> 00:42:54,520
Speaker 1: flattering things and then says, anyways, I just finished your

805
00:42:54,560 --> 00:42:58,120
Speaker 1: five part mini series on psychedelics, listening to it and

806
00:42:58,160 --> 00:43:00,879
Speaker 1: being reminded of mushrooms and Mike's perience with them when

807
00:43:00,880 --> 00:43:03,160
Speaker 1: I was much younger, and it still has the power

808
00:43:03,200 --> 00:43:06,600
Speaker 1: to give me this feeling of ego dissolution. Just a

809
00:43:06,600 --> 00:43:09,280
Speaker 1: little background. When I was nineteen, I had been arrested

810
00:43:09,320 --> 00:43:12,360
Speaker 1: a ton of times for marijuana and drinking related crimes,

811
00:43:12,400 --> 00:43:15,319
Speaker 1: all culminating with my house being rated. I did a

812
00:43:15,320 --> 00:43:17,600
Speaker 1: short stint in County and then was released with one

813
00:43:17,600 --> 00:43:20,600
Speaker 1: point five years of probation and drug counseling. I was

814
00:43:20,680 --> 00:43:23,280
Speaker 1: never a violent or bad guy, or ever really felt

815
00:43:23,320 --> 00:43:25,440
Speaker 1: I had a problem with drugs. I just sort of

816
00:43:25,520 --> 00:43:29,120
Speaker 1: lacked purpose or had anything positive I cared about any who.

817
00:43:29,160 --> 00:43:31,600
Speaker 1: On my twentieth birthday, my best friend at the time

818
00:43:31,640 --> 00:43:34,160
Speaker 1: and I took mushrooms for the first time and walked

819
00:43:34,200 --> 00:43:37,120
Speaker 1: around town. I had this feeling of enlightenment, like I

820
00:43:37,160 --> 00:43:39,279
Speaker 1: was thinking on a much higher level and there was

821
00:43:39,360 --> 00:43:41,319
Speaker 1: just so much more meaning and truth to the world

822
00:43:41,360 --> 00:43:43,719
Speaker 1: than I had known. At that point. I decided I

823
00:43:43,760 --> 00:43:47,000
Speaker 1: wanted to study physics and understand this higher dimension. I

824
00:43:47,040 --> 00:43:49,360
Speaker 1: had never been successful in school. My high school g

825
00:43:49,440 --> 00:43:51,640
Speaker 1: p A was a one point seven, but I took

826
00:43:51,680 --> 00:43:55,120
Speaker 1: some classes at a local school, did well, matriculated, continued

827
00:43:55,160 --> 00:43:58,080
Speaker 1: to do well, applied to a solid physics program at

828
00:43:58,080 --> 00:44:00,880
Speaker 1: the u n H, got a degree, and on to graduate.

829
00:44:01,080 --> 00:44:04,440
Speaker 1: Went on to graduate school to study imaging science. I

830
00:44:04,480 --> 00:44:06,920
Speaker 1: sort of stopped looking for the higher dimensions and just

831
00:44:06,960 --> 00:44:09,960
Speaker 1: got excited about science. Also, there were other things going

832
00:44:10,000 --> 00:44:12,520
Speaker 1: on in my life that were positive, but what I

833
00:44:12,560 --> 00:44:15,439
Speaker 1: really wanted to get to the day after I guess

834
00:44:15,520 --> 00:44:19,200
Speaker 1: this is the day after the psilocybin experience. I hadn't

835
00:44:19,239 --> 00:44:21,359
Speaker 1: slept and I was in the best mood ever, not

836
00:44:21,480 --> 00:44:24,600
Speaker 1: tripping anymore, just feeling like I had learned something deep,

837
00:44:24,719 --> 00:44:28,239
Speaker 1: gained purpose, and perspective. Months later. I didn't feel that

838
00:44:28,280 --> 00:44:31,280
Speaker 1: way always, but I could remember the perspective and bring

839
00:44:31,280 --> 00:44:34,359
Speaker 1: myself there just tapping into the memory. To this day,

840
00:44:34,440 --> 00:44:36,560
Speaker 1: sometimes I think back to the time I tripped on

841
00:44:36,640 --> 00:44:39,240
Speaker 1: mushrooms and I can still sort of get the ego

842
00:44:39,280 --> 00:44:42,560
Speaker 1: dissolution just by making the connection in my memory. It

843
00:44:42,680 --> 00:44:45,920
Speaker 1: is sort of like meditation on demand. That being said,

844
00:44:46,000 --> 00:44:49,600
Speaker 1: I meditated before and a long while after with regularity

845
00:44:49,680 --> 00:44:51,719
Speaker 1: after I had tripped, and I think it brought a

846
00:44:51,719 --> 00:44:54,839
Speaker 1: whole other level to my meditation. It was like there

847
00:44:54,840 --> 00:44:57,520
Speaker 1: was a deeper well of being in the moment, or

848
00:44:57,560 --> 00:45:00,279
Speaker 1: maybe more apt being in the moment also aim with

849
00:45:00,280 --> 00:45:03,640
Speaker 1: a stronger feeling of being connected to the world. Shortly after,

850
00:45:03,680 --> 00:45:06,560
Speaker 1: I made up a meditation inspired by my trip. There

851
00:45:06,600 --> 00:45:08,960
Speaker 1: was this pulsing thing to it, where like your breath

852
00:45:09,000 --> 00:45:11,719
Speaker 1: and heartbeat were connected to the world around you. So

853
00:45:11,760 --> 00:45:14,000
Speaker 1: I would try to force that feeling. I would start

854
00:45:14,040 --> 00:45:17,920
Speaker 1: by using my mind's eye and imagining myself breathing in

855
00:45:17,960 --> 00:45:21,720
Speaker 1: the energy of my surroundings. That I would expand my region,

856
00:45:21,840 --> 00:45:24,520
Speaker 1: to my town, and then to my state, my country,

857
00:45:24,560 --> 00:45:28,160
Speaker 1: the world, the solar system, and then the universe, watching

858
00:45:28,160 --> 00:45:32,160
Speaker 1: with my mind's eye, this abstract universe is gaseous energy

859
00:45:32,320 --> 00:45:35,359
Speaker 1: coming into my lungs, following it the entire way than

860
00:45:35,440 --> 00:45:38,920
Speaker 1: breathing my energy into the universe. And then the writer

861
00:45:39,000 --> 00:45:40,560
Speaker 1: goes on to say a few more things, but I

862
00:45:40,600 --> 00:45:43,280
Speaker 1: think we'll cap it there. But I like this idea

863
00:45:43,280 --> 00:45:48,399
Speaker 1: of the the expanding consciousness exercise through meditation because it's

864
00:45:48,440 --> 00:45:50,960
Speaker 1: something that I don't know if there's a version exactly

865
00:45:51,000 --> 00:45:53,280
Speaker 1: like this that I've come across before, but there's certainly

866
00:45:53,760 --> 00:45:58,360
Speaker 1: the idea of expanding forms of consciousness in the compassion

867
00:45:58,400 --> 00:46:02,160
Speaker 1: meditation tradition, you know, where you uh, you're like, you

868
00:46:02,280 --> 00:46:06,200
Speaker 1: meditate on well wishes and compassion for yourself and for

869
00:46:06,239 --> 00:46:10,000
Speaker 1: people close to you, and you gradually, through the exercise

870
00:46:10,080 --> 00:46:13,640
Speaker 1: like expand that circle of people who you include in

871
00:46:13,719 --> 00:46:16,440
Speaker 1: your the circle of people who you wish well for,

872
00:46:17,160 --> 00:46:19,720
Speaker 1: And this just gets bigger and bigger until you wish

873
00:46:19,760 --> 00:46:22,440
Speaker 1: well for all of humanity. And that's like a way

874
00:46:22,440 --> 00:46:25,760
Speaker 1: of forcing yourself to experience compassion for people you would

875
00:46:25,760 --> 00:46:28,680
Speaker 1: not normally feel compassion for. Right. Yeah, I think that's

876
00:46:28,719 --> 00:46:32,000
Speaker 1: sometimes overlooked as as being you know, one of the

877
00:46:32,040 --> 00:46:36,200
Speaker 1: positive sides about prayer traditions and like Western Christian traditions,

878
00:46:36,560 --> 00:46:40,080
Speaker 1: you know, is that sometimes there's criticism level. They're like, oh,

879
00:46:40,120 --> 00:46:43,680
Speaker 1: if you're praying for somebody, you're not really helping them, uh,

880
00:46:43,719 --> 00:46:45,160
Speaker 1: you know, and so forth, you know, the whole sort

881
00:46:45,200 --> 00:46:48,839
Speaker 1: of thoughts and prayers counter argument. But but if you

882
00:46:48,880 --> 00:46:51,840
Speaker 1: think of it as like this, uh, this empathy building

883
00:46:52,080 --> 00:46:54,879
Speaker 1: meditative practice, uh, you know, I think it's a little

884
00:46:54,920 --> 00:46:56,719
Speaker 1: bit different. And of course the idea to being that,

885
00:46:56,840 --> 00:46:59,640
Speaker 1: like you know, first comes thought and then comes action,

886
00:47:00,239 --> 00:47:02,520
Speaker 1: that if it puts you in a more empathetic mind state,

887
00:47:02,560 --> 00:47:05,400
Speaker 1: then then hopefully you'll be in a better position to

888
00:47:05,440 --> 00:47:08,200
Speaker 1: take actions that are also empathetic. I think I've said

889
00:47:08,239 --> 00:47:10,239
Speaker 1: this on the podcast before, but I know there are

890
00:47:10,280 --> 00:47:13,360
Speaker 1: at least some This might sound like an oxymoron to

891
00:47:13,440 --> 00:47:15,080
Speaker 1: some people, but I've read about this that there are

892
00:47:15,120 --> 00:47:18,719
Speaker 1: like atheist Christians, you know, who are Christians, they don't

893
00:47:18,760 --> 00:47:23,400
Speaker 1: necessarily believe that there is a God that can physically

894
00:47:23,520 --> 00:47:25,719
Speaker 1: change things in the world or anything like that, and

895
00:47:25,800 --> 00:47:28,440
Speaker 1: yet they would still consider themselves in some way Christian

896
00:47:28,520 --> 00:47:32,600
Speaker 1: and pray and that the prayer uh is sometimes thought

897
00:47:32,680 --> 00:47:36,640
Speaker 1: of as a kind of internal psychological drama where you

898
00:47:36,680 --> 00:47:40,160
Speaker 1: are conditioning yourself to have, you know, well, wishes and

899
00:47:40,200 --> 00:47:42,880
Speaker 1: compassion for the people who you pray for, kind of

900
00:47:42,920 --> 00:47:46,440
Speaker 1: like the compassion meditation tradition in Buddhism. Yeah yeah, I

901
00:47:46,440 --> 00:47:49,400
Speaker 1: mean exactly, like if you're if you're doing a uh

902
00:47:49,440 --> 00:47:51,799
Speaker 1: you know, even like a blessing before a dinner, like

903
00:47:51,800 --> 00:47:54,759
Speaker 1: you're stopping for a second to appreciate, you know, the

904
00:47:54,800 --> 00:47:56,400
Speaker 1: fact that you do have food on the table and

905
00:47:56,400 --> 00:47:59,479
Speaker 1: maybe thinking about you know, other people that need help

906
00:47:59,560 --> 00:48:03,120
Speaker 1: and certain causes and whatnot. Like similar exercises and this

907
00:48:03,160 --> 00:48:04,680
Speaker 1: is one that we do in my house is to

908
00:48:04,680 --> 00:48:07,000
Speaker 1: have like a family meeting and there are certain like

909
00:48:07,120 --> 00:48:09,000
Speaker 1: questions that we all answered, like what was the best

910
00:48:09,000 --> 00:48:10,400
Speaker 1: party day? What was the worst part, what are you

911
00:48:10,600 --> 00:48:12,879
Speaker 1: thankful for? What are you looking forward to? That sort

912
00:48:12,880 --> 00:48:15,279
Speaker 1: of thing. Uh, animal of the day is also in

913
00:48:15,320 --> 00:48:17,520
Speaker 1: their animal of the day. Oh yeah, oh that's a

914
00:48:17,520 --> 00:48:20,160
Speaker 1: good that's a good tradition. It's frequently a squirrel for me.

915
00:48:20,320 --> 00:48:23,120
Speaker 1: But um yea yeah, I mean it's like like you say,

916
00:48:23,160 --> 00:48:27,040
Speaker 1: it's it's ultimately kind of this empathetic meditative practice. All right. Next,

917
00:48:27,080 --> 00:48:29,520
Speaker 1: I want to read a section one Like, like I said,

918
00:48:29,520 --> 00:48:32,000
Speaker 1: a lot of these were long because they're often describing,

919
00:48:32,000 --> 00:48:36,720
Speaker 1: you know, rather you know, complex emotional or perceptive experiences.

920
00:48:37,239 --> 00:48:39,160
Speaker 1: Uh so, I'm just gonna read a portion of this

921
00:48:39,200 --> 00:48:45,360
Speaker 1: one where this individual is talking about how how psychedelic

922
00:48:45,440 --> 00:48:49,320
Speaker 1: usage impacted their life. Quote. It definitely changed my perspective

923
00:48:49,320 --> 00:48:51,800
Speaker 1: on things At the time. I was really lonely, anxious

924
00:48:51,840 --> 00:48:53,960
Speaker 1: to have a girlfriend. You had not social enough to

925
00:48:54,000 --> 00:48:56,240
Speaker 1: get out there and then meet and mingle with new people.

926
00:48:56,560 --> 00:48:59,400
Speaker 1: After the trip, I relaxed a great deal. I realized

927
00:48:59,480 --> 00:49:01,719
Speaker 1: it didn't matter or so much at once. I became

928
00:49:01,760 --> 00:49:04,320
Speaker 1: more comfortable with my solitude and more open to trying

929
00:49:04,320 --> 00:49:06,840
Speaker 1: new things and meeting new people. I realized there was

930
00:49:06,880 --> 00:49:08,680
Speaker 1: so much more to do, and I was not doing

931
00:49:08,719 --> 00:49:12,320
Speaker 1: everything I could be doing to make my memories richer.

932
00:49:12,680 --> 00:49:14,960
Speaker 1: But that was just the beginning of my changes. The

933
00:49:15,040 --> 00:49:16,520
Speaker 1: last time my trip was about a year and a

934
00:49:16,560 --> 00:49:19,520
Speaker 1: half ago. I had one more insightful experience. I was

935
00:49:19,560 --> 00:49:22,200
Speaker 1: over at my brother's apartment, but instead of discussing anything

936
00:49:22,200 --> 00:49:24,239
Speaker 1: with him, I opted to lay down in silence for

937
00:49:24,239 --> 00:49:26,800
Speaker 1: the duration of the trip. I tried to focus inward,

938
00:49:26,960 --> 00:49:29,000
Speaker 1: but had a very difficult time because of the pain

939
00:49:29,040 --> 00:49:31,080
Speaker 1: I was feeling in my body. At first, I was

940
00:49:31,120 --> 00:49:34,120
Speaker 1: frustrated because I felt like I was just being distracted

941
00:49:34,120 --> 00:49:36,759
Speaker 1: by this pain. But eventually I realized that I was

942
00:49:36,800 --> 00:49:39,480
Speaker 1: supposed to be feeling this pain. I had been experiencing

943
00:49:39,520 --> 00:49:41,480
Speaker 1: chronic back and risk pains for about a year at

944
00:49:41,480 --> 00:49:43,839
Speaker 1: that point, and had not really done anything about them.

945
00:49:43,880 --> 00:49:46,319
Speaker 1: I realized that day that I was not treating my

946
00:49:46,360 --> 00:49:48,279
Speaker 1: body the way it needed to be treated. I had

947
00:49:48,280 --> 00:49:51,440
Speaker 1: a very sedentary life style as a computer jockey and

948
00:49:51,480 --> 00:49:54,400
Speaker 1: did a little exercise. The psychedelics made me focus on

949
00:49:54,440 --> 00:49:57,040
Speaker 1: how much it sucked to be in pain all the time,

950
00:49:57,360 --> 00:49:59,239
Speaker 1: and that I was still young enough to fix it.

951
00:49:59,360 --> 00:50:01,680
Speaker 1: Although I my not have enough time if I didn't

952
00:50:01,719 --> 00:50:04,759
Speaker 1: start soon. I still work from a computer. Uh, there

953
00:50:04,840 --> 00:50:06,640
Speaker 1: was no changing that aspect of my life, but I

954
00:50:06,680 --> 00:50:09,560
Speaker 1: decided to start having healthier exercise habits. I got a

955
00:50:09,600 --> 00:50:11,920
Speaker 1: gym membership and started swimming almost every day of the

956
00:50:11,960 --> 00:50:15,480
Speaker 1: week after work, and began practicing yoga almost every morning.

957
00:50:15,840 --> 00:50:17,840
Speaker 1: I was upset at first that I didn't have as

958
00:50:17,920 --> 00:50:19,720
Speaker 1: much time in the day to do what I wanted,

959
00:50:19,880 --> 00:50:21,640
Speaker 1: but as the week went by, I began to love

960
00:50:21,680 --> 00:50:24,840
Speaker 1: the exercise. I feel that my trip gave me a

961
00:50:24,880 --> 00:50:27,759
Speaker 1: healthier ability to communicate with my body and understand what

962
00:50:27,840 --> 00:50:30,200
Speaker 1: it wanted. I had been depriving it for so long,

963
00:50:30,360 --> 00:50:32,360
Speaker 1: and it was so happy that I was giving it

964
00:50:32,440 --> 00:50:35,080
Speaker 1: the movement it needed so badly. Uh yeah, and the

965
00:50:35,120 --> 00:50:37,480
Speaker 1: writer here has has some other great things to say.

966
00:50:37,520 --> 00:50:39,640
Speaker 1: This was also a long email, but thank you for

967
00:50:39,640 --> 00:50:41,879
Speaker 1: getting in touch. It's it's great to hear. I mean,

968
00:50:41,960 --> 00:50:44,239
Speaker 1: yet again, this is something we've we've seen at least

969
00:50:44,280 --> 00:50:47,600
Speaker 1: anecdotally over and over again in these reports, is the

970
00:50:47,640 --> 00:50:51,880
Speaker 1: ability of these substances to give people an experience that

971
00:50:52,040 --> 00:50:55,360
Speaker 1: leads to change in habits, which is such a precious

972
00:50:55,400 --> 00:50:57,960
Speaker 1: thing to come by, actually, like being able to change

973
00:50:57,960 --> 00:51:02,160
Speaker 1: your routines were In fact, I think so often we

974
00:51:02,239 --> 00:51:07,160
Speaker 1: are really just oblivious to how governed by routine we are,

975
00:51:07,880 --> 00:51:11,279
Speaker 1: how how subject it to habits and repetitive actions. I mean,

976
00:51:11,520 --> 00:51:14,360
Speaker 1: it's one of the things that it can be almost

977
00:51:14,440 --> 00:51:17,080
Speaker 1: kind of debilitating to think about life this way, but

978
00:51:17,120 --> 00:51:20,400
Speaker 1: it is sometimes worth realizing that every time you do something,

979
00:51:20,480 --> 00:51:22,799
Speaker 1: you're not just doing that thing, but you're making it

980
00:51:22,880 --> 00:51:25,520
Speaker 1: more likely that you'll do that thing again in the future.

981
00:51:26,120 --> 00:51:28,520
Speaker 1: Every time you say it, every time you think it,

982
00:51:28,600 --> 00:51:31,400
Speaker 1: every time you do it, you're sort of writing a

983
00:51:31,480 --> 00:51:35,640
Speaker 1: program in your brain to reinforce that thing. And so

984
00:51:35,880 --> 00:51:39,000
Speaker 1: like our actions, you know, your actions are never just

985
00:51:39,360 --> 00:51:42,439
Speaker 1: that one action in the moment. It's also changing your

986
00:51:42,560 --> 00:51:46,719
Speaker 1: future predisposition. But it seems like the one great thing

987
00:51:46,719 --> 00:51:49,440
Speaker 1: about psychedelics is they have at least some sort of power,

988
00:51:49,520 --> 00:51:53,960
Speaker 1: often reported anecdotally, to to to get in there and

989
00:51:54,000 --> 00:51:56,680
Speaker 1: mess with that code, to give you more ability to

990
00:51:56,800 --> 00:52:01,080
Speaker 1: overcome your habitual behaviors and try to do something different. Yeah,

991
00:52:01,120 --> 00:52:03,879
Speaker 1: to shake up the snow globe, and and again again.

992
00:52:03,880 --> 00:52:05,880
Speaker 1: The research this is it goes beyond just sort of

993
00:52:05,920 --> 00:52:08,200
Speaker 1: the subjective experience. But I mean we see the research

994
00:52:08,280 --> 00:52:11,880
Speaker 1: in uh, the ability to combat combat addiction addiction, and

995
00:52:12,040 --> 00:52:14,440
Speaker 1: like that is a that is certainly a more concrete

996
00:52:14,480 --> 00:52:17,400
Speaker 1: area of like here's the here's the coding, here's the

997
00:52:17,400 --> 00:52:19,759
Speaker 1: program that's been put in place, and then here we

998
00:52:19,800 --> 00:52:23,680
Speaker 1: are just we're seeing its disruption. Alright, So we have

999
00:52:23,760 --> 00:52:25,400
Speaker 1: just a few more. These are some short ones to

1000
00:52:25,440 --> 00:52:28,480
Speaker 1: close it out. I'm gonna read this one listening rites

1001
00:52:28,520 --> 00:52:30,600
Speaker 1: and it says I've been enjoying the five part series

1002
00:52:30,640 --> 00:52:33,920
Speaker 1: on psychedelics. Great examination given to this topic. I particularly

1003
00:52:34,000 --> 00:52:35,799
Speaker 1: enjoy the discussion of the other. At the end of

1004
00:52:35,800 --> 00:52:39,319
Speaker 1: the first installment, the foray and gnostic belief was quite apt.

1005
00:52:39,560 --> 00:52:42,719
Speaker 1: I experienced a similar feeling during a few psychedelic experiences,

1006
00:52:42,840 --> 00:52:45,719
Speaker 1: and this detail lended more to a feeling I used

1007
00:52:45,760 --> 00:52:49,240
Speaker 1: to think was unique. However, my whole gnostic experience happened

1008
00:52:49,239 --> 00:52:51,720
Speaker 1: after reading way too much HP Lovecraft in my freshman

1009
00:52:51,760 --> 00:52:55,760
Speaker 1: year of college, and that produced a monolithic Cyclopean fear

1010
00:52:55,840 --> 00:52:59,799
Speaker 1: that I cannot describe of which is fitting. That's very okay, uh.

1011
00:53:00,000 --> 00:53:03,239
Speaker 1: Over the less, I think that the other produced by psychedelics,

1012
00:53:03,280 --> 00:53:07,239
Speaker 1: the disassociation from reality and the fallibility of perception, is

1013
00:53:07,239 --> 00:53:10,120
Speaker 1: a real benefit from these substances. I look forward to

1014
00:53:10,160 --> 00:53:13,520
Speaker 1: future research on psychedelics, especially the use of micro dosis.

1015
00:53:13,560 --> 00:53:15,680
Speaker 1: Some of the best transcendent moments of my teens in

1016
00:53:15,719 --> 00:53:18,640
Speaker 1: early adulthood were aided by consumption of small amounts of

1017
00:53:18,680 --> 00:53:22,360
Speaker 1: psychedelics in the company of close friends. Taking some mushrooms

1018
00:53:22,360 --> 00:53:24,759
Speaker 1: and hiking up a small mountain can really offer you

1019
00:53:24,800 --> 00:53:27,319
Speaker 1: some perspective. I would like to see a time when

1020
00:53:27,400 --> 00:53:30,600
Speaker 1: responsible and private use of psychedelics is more accepted. I

1021
00:53:30,640 --> 00:53:32,839
Speaker 1: couldn't help but think of Roger from mad Men. When

1022
00:53:32,840 --> 00:53:35,800
Speaker 1: I was listening to the series. Oh yeah, yeah, this happened.

1023
00:53:35,880 --> 00:53:38,960
Speaker 1: Later on, he ends up taking I never finished mad Man.

1024
00:53:39,000 --> 00:53:40,960
Speaker 1: I think I just watched the first season or something.

1025
00:53:41,160 --> 00:53:44,360
Speaker 1: Oh it's I. I enjoyed the whole the whole journey.

1026
00:53:44,360 --> 00:53:47,120
Speaker 1: But yeah, Roger ends up taking out. I want to say,

1027
00:53:47,920 --> 00:53:50,840
Speaker 1: he ends up going over to an individual's house and

1028
00:53:50,840 --> 00:53:53,879
Speaker 1: I can't remember what historic figure that may or may

1029
00:53:53,880 --> 00:53:57,360
Speaker 1: not supposed to be like, but anyway, he goes, and

1030
00:53:57,400 --> 00:54:02,120
Speaker 1: he's introduced to last Anyway, listen, the writer continues his

1031
00:54:02,239 --> 00:54:04,640
Speaker 1: love of LSD and his habitual use in later in

1032
00:54:04,680 --> 00:54:07,320
Speaker 1: the later seasons paints and image of how even successful

1033
00:54:07,360 --> 00:54:10,400
Speaker 1: people in business could enjoy that kind of cleansing feeling

1034
00:54:10,400 --> 00:54:13,560
Speaker 1: that psychedelics evoke. Great show. I love listening to this

1035
00:54:13,600 --> 00:54:16,080
Speaker 1: podcast on my way to work. Oh well, thanks for

1036
00:54:16,120 --> 00:54:18,520
Speaker 1: sharing with us. Wait a minute, what is this about

1037
00:54:18,520 --> 00:54:25,400
Speaker 1: the Cyclopean fear that? Uh well, I I take that

1038
00:54:25,440 --> 00:54:29,000
Speaker 1: to to mean that, yeah, that there was. The psychedelic

1039
00:54:29,040 --> 00:54:33,240
Speaker 1: experience was initially influenced by reading too much HP Lovecraft,

1040
00:54:33,719 --> 00:54:36,840
Speaker 1: which sounds like not a great bad story hearing, uh,

1041
00:54:36,920 --> 00:54:40,400
Speaker 1: you know, but it's funny. HP Lovecraft also gets to

1042
00:54:40,440 --> 00:54:43,440
Speaker 1: the ineffable much like the mystical experience as this quality

1043
00:54:43,480 --> 00:54:46,399
Speaker 1: of ineffability one of the most common things, at least

1044
00:54:46,440 --> 00:54:48,800
Speaker 1: in my you know, I'm not as deeply read on HP. Lovecraft,

1045
00:54:48,840 --> 00:54:50,480
Speaker 1: I think as you were, as a lot of other

1046
00:54:50,480 --> 00:54:53,000
Speaker 1: people are. But I recognize in that and in some

1047
00:54:53,080 --> 00:54:55,880
Speaker 1: other horror writers of the period this very common thing

1048
00:54:55,920 --> 00:54:59,200
Speaker 1: about just like not being able to describe the feeling

1049
00:54:59,239 --> 00:55:02,480
Speaker 1: of horror experienced. Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's just a common

1050
00:55:02,480 --> 00:55:06,040
Speaker 1: trope of of Lovecrafts writing. But then yeah, other writers

1051
00:55:06,200 --> 00:55:09,120
Speaker 1: working at the time, and and writers have come and

1052
00:55:09,160 --> 00:55:13,480
Speaker 1: you know, in the tradition to follow. Um. But but yeah,

1053
00:55:13,480 --> 00:55:16,200
Speaker 1: at the same time, it's very like there's no empathy there,

1054
00:55:16,200 --> 00:55:19,920
Speaker 1: Like it's kind of an anti psychedelic like well a

1055
00:55:20,000 --> 00:55:26,160
Speaker 1: darkly psychedelic description of things, I guess. But anyway, I

1056
00:55:26,200 --> 00:55:27,759
Speaker 1: guess part of the thing to think about is I

1057
00:55:27,760 --> 00:55:30,360
Speaker 1: guess that the brain is going to build your experience

1058
00:55:30,360 --> 00:55:33,880
Speaker 1: out of whatever you've been feeding in to a certain extent. So, um,

1059
00:55:33,920 --> 00:55:36,319
Speaker 1: he was this individuals feeding at Lovecraft and this is

1060
00:55:36,320 --> 00:55:38,560
Speaker 1: what they got. Well, I hope this has been informative.

1061
00:55:38,600 --> 00:55:41,680
Speaker 1: After we uh, you know, explored the sort of historical

1062
00:55:41,760 --> 00:55:45,200
Speaker 1: and scientific reports for a number of episodes now to

1063
00:55:45,320 --> 00:55:48,239
Speaker 1: just hear these like first hand anecdotes and experiences from

1064
00:55:48,280 --> 00:55:51,640
Speaker 1: all these listeners and and other people. Yeah, yeah, this

1065
00:55:51,680 --> 00:55:54,359
Speaker 1: was This was great. So I appreciate everyone who wrote in.

1066
00:55:54,680 --> 00:55:56,839
Speaker 1: If you wrote in or or you know somehow try

1067
00:55:56,840 --> 00:55:59,640
Speaker 1: to communicate with us on this and we didn't respond

1068
00:55:59,760 --> 00:56:03,759
Speaker 1: or read your your thoughts here, just you know, bear

1069
00:56:03,760 --> 00:56:05,960
Speaker 1: in mind that we we we did read them. We

1070
00:56:06,000 --> 00:56:08,640
Speaker 1: read everything that comes in, and we do appreciate you

1071
00:56:08,719 --> 00:56:11,920
Speaker 1: sharing your thoughts with us. And likewise, if you didn't

1072
00:56:12,000 --> 00:56:13,840
Speaker 1: you know, hit the deadline on this and you have

1073
00:56:14,239 --> 00:56:16,520
Speaker 1: you have you have additional thoughts, well we'll send those in.

1074
00:56:16,560 --> 00:56:19,920
Speaker 1: Anyway we may return to We won't do a dedicated

1075
00:56:20,040 --> 00:56:22,840
Speaker 1: listener mail on this topic again, but you know, we

1076
00:56:22,880 --> 00:56:25,720
Speaker 1: may carve out the in portion of a future listener

1077
00:56:25,760 --> 00:56:29,920
Speaker 1: mail episode to consider future emails related to the psychedelic

1078
00:56:29,960 --> 00:56:32,960
Speaker 1: experience totally. And for that matter, I mean, we may

1079
00:56:32,960 --> 00:56:36,720
Speaker 1: do future episodes about psychedelics because again, the research is ongoing.

1080
00:56:36,840 --> 00:56:39,719
Speaker 1: We may see some some really cool studies in the

1081
00:56:39,760 --> 00:56:42,440
Speaker 1: next year or two and we'll have no choice but

1082
00:56:42,520 --> 00:56:44,919
Speaker 1: to return to them. So I mean, hopefully that's the case.

1083
00:56:45,120 --> 00:56:46,919
Speaker 1: I hope. So I don't think we'll do another five

1084
00:56:47,000 --> 00:56:50,160
Speaker 1: part series, but but you know it's something. Yeah, we're

1085
00:56:50,160 --> 00:56:54,640
Speaker 1: we're we're fascinating. New avenues of of inquiry will continuously

1086
00:56:54,719 --> 00:56:56,919
Speaker 1: pop up. Yeah, and the ultimately, I think it would

1087
00:56:56,920 --> 00:56:58,520
Speaker 1: be fun to like what we do come back to it,

1088
00:56:58,600 --> 00:57:00,799
Speaker 1: have like a single study to focus in on, Like

1089
00:57:00,880 --> 00:57:03,600
Speaker 1: here's a new study, here's what they did, here's what

1090
00:57:03,680 --> 00:57:05,880
Speaker 1: their their findings are, and and and here's what we

1091
00:57:05,920 --> 00:57:07,839
Speaker 1: can we can clean from that. Oh yeah, I think

1092
00:57:07,840 --> 00:57:10,240
Speaker 1: I already mentioned. One that came up in the episode

1093
00:57:10,360 --> 00:57:12,920
Speaker 1: we didn't get into in depth was like the research

1094
00:57:12,960 --> 00:57:16,200
Speaker 1: on adult personality change. I imagine if more stuff comes

1095
00:57:16,200 --> 00:57:18,840
Speaker 1: out about that, maybe we'll explore that in a future episode. Yeah,

1096
00:57:18,920 --> 00:57:20,440
Speaker 1: all right. In the meantime, if you want to check

1097
00:57:20,440 --> 00:57:22,080
Speaker 1: out more episodes of Stuff to Blow your Mind, head

1098
00:57:22,080 --> 00:57:24,080
Speaker 1: on over to Stuff to Blow your Mind dot com.

1099
00:57:24,120 --> 00:57:26,680
Speaker 1: And if you want to support us and support the show,

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Speaker 1: review us wherever you have the power to do so,

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Speaker 1: and make sure you've subscribed not only to Stuff to

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Speaker 1: Blow Your Mind, but also our other show, Invention, which

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Speaker 1: is uh his is a study of human history via

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Speaker 1: the various inventions that we have concocted. Yeah, if you're

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Speaker 1: not subscribed, why not subscribe to invention. Subscribe to Invention.

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Speaker 1: Subscribe to Invention. Robert, you're gonna join. Subscribe to invention.

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Speaker 1: Subscribe to invention. You have subscribe to Invention. Subscribe to Invention.

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Speaker 1: Subscribe to Invention. Okay, that's enough. Uh well, anyway, so

1110
00:57:58,960 --> 00:58:02,920
Speaker 1: thanks to our excellent audio producer say Maya Cole. If

1111
00:58:02,960 --> 00:58:04,480
Speaker 1: you would like to get in touch with us with

1112
00:58:04,560 --> 00:58:07,640
Speaker 1: feedback on this episode or any other, uh, to suggest

1113
00:58:07,640 --> 00:58:10,080
Speaker 1: a topic for the future, or just to say hello

1114
00:58:10,280 --> 00:58:12,320
Speaker 1: and all that kind of stuff, you can email us

1115
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Speaker 1: at contact at stuff to blow your Mind dot com.

1116
00:58:25,360 --> 00:58:27,560
Speaker 1: Stuff to Blow Your Mind is a production of iHeart Radios.

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Speaker 1: How stuff Works. For more podcasts from my heart Radio

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