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Speaker 1: Hey, this is Annie and Samantha. I want my stuff.

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Speaker 1: I never told you protection to Buyheart Radio.

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Speaker 2: And today we're bringing back a classic that I've just

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Speaker 2: been thinking about now that we're in Halloween times. It

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Speaker 2: was a book club we did that I actually want

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Speaker 2: to do this again, where we talked about two different

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Speaker 2: short stories. Yes, we talked about a Neil Gaman short story,

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Speaker 2: The Problem with Susan, that's about Susan and the Chronicles

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Speaker 2: of Narnia. And then we talked about a very important

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Speaker 2: short story to my life that it seems most people

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Speaker 2: have never heard of, but.

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Speaker 1: It was about Smooties.

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Speaker 2: It was about basically like loving a food item so

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Speaker 2: much and even though you know it's bad for you, you

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Speaker 2: keep eating it and kind of unhealthy thoughts around wait

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Speaker 2: around it.

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Speaker 1: And I was thinking.

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Speaker 2: About it because, yes, over on my other podcast, Saver,

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Speaker 2: we just did Twizzlers, but we're also doing an episode

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Speaker 2: on the menu, which I think we should talk about

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Speaker 2: on here.

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Speaker 3: Oh, I'd be excited about that one.

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Speaker 2: And I was just thinking about that kind of when

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Speaker 2: food is like not food or kind of gets divorced

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Speaker 2: from being just something you eat for sustenance.

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Speaker 3: I went to a restaurant recentthing like that. Mmm, I

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Speaker 3: have opinions, just kidding, I don't want have too many

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Speaker 3: opinions because it was my birthday dinner and I chose

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Speaker 3: it and I feel kind of guilty bday.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, well we should talk about it.

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Speaker 4: But I mean also, just like, it's a creepy Storypy,

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Speaker 4: it's creepy, and I love a good creepy story around

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Speaker 4: this time, anytime really, but definitely around this time.

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Speaker 2: So please enjoy this classic episode. Hey, this is Anny

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Speaker 2: and Samantha, and welcome to stuff. I never told you

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Speaker 2: a protection of iHeart. So before we get into this

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Speaker 2: one quick content warning. We are going to be discussing

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Speaker 2: issues around weight, weight loss, fad diets, and some violence,

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Speaker 2: some grief. Not so much on those last two, but

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Speaker 2: the first three like weight weight loss a lot. So

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Speaker 2: if that's something that's triggering for you, or especially now

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Speaker 2: when we're in the time of resolutions and a lot

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Speaker 2: of those often do involve dieting and weight, then I

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Speaker 2: would probably skip this one, or at least skip the

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Speaker 2: first half. Yes, because we are doing something interesting today

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Speaker 2: where we're talking about two short stories that really had

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Speaker 2: a big impact on me when I was younger, and

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Speaker 2: I guess now because I still think about them. And

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Speaker 2: we'll talk more about that in a second. But Samantha,

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Speaker 2: do you have any short stories that you read in

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Speaker 2: high school or just when you were younger that really

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Speaker 2: stuck with you?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, the ones that traumatized me were the ones that

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Speaker 3: I remember the most. Yeah, A Rose for Emily I

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Speaker 3: told you about, which is the William Faulkner one that

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Speaker 3: I was like, what is this? And then A good

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Speaker 3: Man is Hard to Find, which is the Flanney O'Connor.

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Speaker 3: And I've actually really went through all her short collection

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Speaker 3: because she's a Georgia person and so I felt like

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Speaker 3: I needed to connect and I love Southern Gothic like

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Speaker 3: that is probably some of my favorite genre books. Like

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Speaker 3: Flannie O'Connor, she's okay and all, but Carson McCullers was

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Speaker 3: my person and love her stories, So things like that

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Speaker 3: really got into it. But those were the ones that

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Speaker 3: pierced my brain the most, of like what is happening?

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Speaker 3: Why did I read this? Why? Like that? Typically, and

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Speaker 3: I guess it's probably a sign of a great book.

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Speaker 3: And that's the same thing I've always said. It's like, yes,

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Speaker 3: I hate them but they're amazing writers because they are

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Speaker 3: the worst for putting this in my head and I

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Speaker 3: can't to go. So those two are short stories stick

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Speaker 3: with me the most from high school. I do love

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Speaker 3: a good novella, so like Cosson, McCullers has a couple

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Speaker 3: of really good short novellas. I also read of My

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Speaker 3: Some Men in middle school and cried for three days

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Speaker 3: very much. But I do love Steinbeck as well, who

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Speaker 3: was not necessarily a Southern Gothic but was kind of

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Speaker 3: in that timeframe. So those are the stories that I remember.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I was thinking about this because we're

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Speaker 5: today we're talking about one that I imagine most of you

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Speaker 5: haven't heard of, called Lose Now Pay Later.

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Speaker 3: I've never heard of the story.

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Speaker 2: Me and my friends we read it in ninth grade,

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Speaker 2: I think, and we still talk about it. And then

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Speaker 2: we're talking about Neil Gaiman's The Problem with Susan, The

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Speaker 2: Problem of Susan, Excuse me, And I do think it's

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Speaker 2: really fascinating that when I there were a lot of

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Speaker 2: literature stories that I read, short stories I read in

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Speaker 2: literature class that they stuck out to me and I

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Speaker 2: remember them to this day.

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Speaker 1: And when I was in tenth grade.

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Speaker 2: We did a whole section on religious stories from around

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Speaker 2: the world, and that actually had a huge impact on

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Speaker 2: me and my because I grew up very religious, but

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Speaker 2: I was kind of stepping away and that was part

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Speaker 2: of that where I was like, this story is essentially

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Speaker 2: the same as Noah's arc, and it was written way

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Speaker 2: earlier as being very like logical about it and annoying

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Speaker 2: about it. But yeah, and then there was another story

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Speaker 2: that I still think of to this day. I can't

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Speaker 2: remember like any of the details other than the main

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Speaker 2: character was he was a male teenager and he was

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Speaker 2: kind of a jerk, and he kind of went out

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Speaker 2: and did all this stuff and cut his family out

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Speaker 2: and really burnt them, left them burnt. And then he

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Speaker 2: went through all this like trauma, and he came back

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Speaker 2: and the family just accepted him and they were so

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Speaker 2: happy to see him again.

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Speaker 1: And I just remember, for some reason that really stuck

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Speaker 1: with me.

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Speaker 2: Another one Harrison Bergeron, which was written by Kurt Vonnegut

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Speaker 2: in nineteen sixty one.

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Speaker 1: I reread it. It's really short, just.

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Speaker 2: Kind of because I found it online when I was

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Speaker 2: doing research for this, and it's got a lot of

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Speaker 2: interesting stuff in Mary that might be a maybe we'll

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Speaker 2: come back if we ever do another short story thing again.

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Speaker 3: I'll say Kurt Vonnicut's short stories are so different from

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Speaker 3: his novels that it threw me when I first read it,

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Speaker 3: because I was expecting one thing, but I loved it.

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Speaker 3: I was like, wait, it was almost reminiscent of Truman

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Speaker 3: Capoti and his short stories as well. That I was like, wait,

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Speaker 3: wait what, But I know that's not the case necessarily

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Speaker 3: because they're very different styles, very beautiful in each of

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Speaker 3: its way. But I really enjoyed his short stories. It

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Speaker 3: did go more into that literary world that I knew

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Speaker 3: because I'm not a big sci fi fan, and honestly,

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Speaker 3: I don't think Kurt Vonnegut is super sci fi. He

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Speaker 3: does have the futuristic vibe to everything he does, and

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Speaker 3: that's why I think I like his stuff. I think

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Speaker 3: he's hilarious. But his actual short stories are very reminiscent

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Speaker 3: to the literary works to me of Trim and Capoti's

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Speaker 3: like kind of very lyrical way, but don't get me started.

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Speaker 1: I want to get you started. Oh my gosh, it's

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Speaker 1: so fun.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. No, I really enjoyed it and I'm glad I

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Speaker 2: reread it, and yeah, there's just a lot of stuff

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Speaker 2: we could talk about now, especially in our modern context,

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Speaker 2: because it is very fascinating to me to read a

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Speaker 2: story that's set in the future when we're kind of

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Speaker 2: approaching that date.

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Speaker 1: It's right, oh, where are we when.

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Speaker 2: It comes to that, which is a good segue into

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Speaker 2: the first story we're going to read, well, not read

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Speaker 2: that we read and we're going to talk about, which

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Speaker 2: you can find for free online, and it is called

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Speaker 2: los Now Pay Later. So yes, I did. I read

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Speaker 2: this in ninth grade literature. It's by Carol Farley. I

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Speaker 2: think it was published in nineteen ninety one, but it

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Speaker 2: was surprisingly hard to check down.

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Speaker 1: I guess it's just like me and my friend group

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Speaker 1: that remember the story so well. I like it.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's definitely got some language we get in trouble

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Speaker 2: for using on this podcast, like crazy and dumb in it.

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Speaker 2: And I couldn't find too much about the author, but

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Speaker 2: here's hoping she isn't a terrible human being. But me

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Speaker 2: and my friends, yeah, we talk about the story pretty frequently,

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Speaker 2: and since it's all about fad diets gone really really wrong,

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Speaker 2: we thought it was sort of appropriate for all this

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Speaker 2: New Year, New you messaging. And let's get into the plot.

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Speaker 2: So it is about two girls, Deb and Trinda, and

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Speaker 2: I'm guessing on how to pronounce that it's tri n Ja.

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Speaker 2: And they encounter this news story at a mall selling

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Speaker 2: something called Swooties.

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Speaker 1: And this is another reason.

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Speaker 2: I think it's nineteen ninety one is probably correct because

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Speaker 2: it feels very nineties to me. So the shop sounds

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Speaker 2: like the fanciest frozen yogurt shop you've ever heard of.

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Speaker 2: And yeah, it reminds me of the fro yo trend

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Speaker 2: which was taking off in the in the nineteen nineties

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Speaker 2: in America. So very bright, very clean, but no employees

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Speaker 2: in sight. There's a sign inside the shop that reads

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Speaker 2: sweets plus goodies equals Swooties. I'm pronouncing it sooties, but

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Speaker 2: I guess it would be sweeties.

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Speaker 1: I'm saying swooties. I'm sticking with it.

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Speaker 2: Soudies came in a variety of flavors peanut butter crunch,

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Speaker 2: butter rum, pecan, coconut, almond, marshmallow, and chocolate nut mint.

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Speaker 1: And best of all, they were free.

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Speaker 3: I feel like those flavors are very adult flavors. Because

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Speaker 3: as a kid, I would never go for the coconut almond.

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Speaker 3: I'd be like, what what is this?

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Speaker 2: I might, but it would be for the coconut and

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Speaker 2: not the almond, if that makes sense.

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Speaker 3: I really love coconut so like butter fudge crunch, even

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Speaker 3: though like, yeah, that sounds like it would be a

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Speaker 3: lot more U friendly, but whatever. So deb the narrator,

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Speaker 3: is suspicious, a little on edge about how bright and

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Speaker 3: empty the story is, and doubtful that they are truly free.

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Speaker 3: Trenja is really excited about it, though so dev mentioned

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Speaker 3: she's on a diet and is therefore always thinking about food.

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Speaker 3: The smell lures them in and they try some from

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Speaker 3: the automated machine that dispenses a chocolate covered cone and

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Speaker 3: then a swirl of something with a similar consistency to

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Speaker 3: a soft serf, which, by the way, I still can't

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Speaker 3: quite grasp this. By all accounts, they're delicious, and they

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Speaker 3: the pair try every flavor before leaving, Trenja vowing the

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Speaker 3: diet for a whole year to make up for it.

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Speaker 3: As they exit, they tell others passing by to go

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Speaker 3: and try some.

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Speaker 2: Yes, So this is the thing we talk about the

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Speaker 2: most is the descriptions of how good they taste like,

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Speaker 2: we still think about how good they sounded. We want them,

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Speaker 2: So here's a quote. So swooties aren't cold like ice

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Speaker 2: cream or warm like cooked pudding, but they are blending

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Speaker 2: of both in temperature and texture. The flavor melts instantly,

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Speaker 2: and your whole mouth and brain are flooded with taste

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Speaker 2: and impressions. Like the first swoodie I tried coconut almond marshmallow. Suddenly,

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Speaker 2: as my mouth separated the individual taste, my brain bursted

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Speaker 2: into memories associated.

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Speaker 1: With each flavor.

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Speaker 2: I felt as if I were lying on a warm beach,

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Speaker 2: all covered with coconut suntan oil. Then I heard myself

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Speaker 2: giggling and singing as a group of us roasted marshmallows

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Speaker 2: around a campfire. Then I lived the long ago moments

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Speaker 2: of biding into the special Christmas cookies with almonds my

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Speaker 2: grandmother made when I was little. And that's something we

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Speaker 2: have talked about, is this kind of nostalgia of food

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Speaker 2: and how powerful that can be. So yeah, swooties takeoff,

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Speaker 2: and despite achieving widespread popularity, the product remains free. People

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Speaker 2: are so excited about swooties that nobody really asked any

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Speaker 2: questions about it, someone was paying the rent, and the

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Speaker 2: product was determined to be safe for human consumption. People

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Speaker 2: lined up to get their hands on some swooties, and

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Speaker 2: the machines never seem to run out, and everyone who

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Speaker 2: partakes starts to gain weight. Trinja and Deb complain about it,

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Speaker 2: knowing the swooties are to blame, leading Deb to ask aloud,

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Speaker 2: if only there was some easy way to eat all

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Speaker 2: the swooties we want and still not gain any weight.

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Speaker 1: Well, ask and you shall receive.

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Speaker 2: Deb almost immediately notices a new fixture in the mall

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Speaker 2: parking lot, a tall, white telephone booth sized box. A

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Speaker 2: flashing light next to it reads the Slimmer, and a thin, tan,

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Speaker 2: short woman with a quote strange sounding voice is standing

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Speaker 2: outside of it, telling the girls that it is a

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Speaker 2: machine to make you slimmer and that if they step

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Speaker 2: inside they'll lose unwanted fat. Deb is taken aback at

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Speaker 2: this woman's confidence, knowing that quote. In the old days,

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Speaker 2: people believed they could lose weight quickly, but in twenty

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Speaker 2: forty one they weren't that gullible. They knew fad diets

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Speaker 2: don't work, and that's fat the woman explains that it

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Speaker 2: is a new process and that instant removal of fat

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Speaker 2: costs twenty five yen per pound.

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Speaker 3: Was this supposed to be based in China or.

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Speaker 1: No, so oh, Japan?

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Speaker 2: So I think because of the time it was written,

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Speaker 2: Japan was a big economic power, and that's actually one

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Speaker 2: of the reasons we see so many damaging stereotypes Asian

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Speaker 2: stereotypes and eighties nineties movies was to kind of combat that.

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Speaker 1: So, I think because when this was.

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Speaker 2: Written, she was imagining that in the future, Japan was

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Speaker 2: the power to Vanagut.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean I also thought that way too, I think,

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Speaker 3: but it was more China at that point in his books,

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Speaker 3: but that they would be in power in future, which

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Speaker 3: maybe they're not wrong, though they are both dubious that

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Speaker 3: the woman's confidence convinces Depth to give it a go,

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Speaker 3: digging up one hundred and thirty yen literally, they just say, well,

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Speaker 3: I mean, how much money do you have? And the

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Speaker 3: woman pushes it, takes some money and pushes in. Then

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Speaker 3: and the woman pushes Deb inside the booth, slams the

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Speaker 3: door behind her. There's a humming sound. I before Deb

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Speaker 3: can scream, Trinja opens the door yelling at the woman

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Speaker 3: when she says that five pounds are gone. In a daze,

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Speaker 3: Dev says her genes felt loose, but Trenja says it's

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Speaker 3: in her all in her imagination. However, when deb waste herself,

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Speaker 3: it turns out to be true.

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Speaker 1: So Yes.

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Speaker 3: Excited, the girls scrounge up as much money as they

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Speaker 3: can and head back to the mall. The woman reveals,

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Speaker 3: for every ten pounds you lose, because you know I

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Speaker 3: Trenja did more than just five, she has to prick

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Speaker 3: your wrist, leaving behind a tiny little mark for quote

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Speaker 3: safety reasons, and the girls are so relieved at the

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Speaker 3: weight loss and the prospect of never having to diet

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Speaker 3: again they accept this without question.

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Speaker 2: Yes, and soon after slimmers start appearing all over the world,

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Speaker 2: right next to swootie stores. Everyone loves them and the

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Speaker 2: population at large gets skinnier. Some people have four or

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Speaker 2: five pinpricks around their wrist, but no one really understands

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Speaker 2: how the machines work. The machine attendants, who are all

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Speaker 2: just kind of slightly off, will explain it, but it's

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Speaker 2: too technical to really understand, and in the words of Trinja,

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Speaker 2: people really didn't care how they worked because it meant

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Speaker 2: they could eat swooties all day long and not gain

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Speaker 2: an ounce, and that's what mattered. Everyone seems to love

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Speaker 2: swooties and slimmers, except for Deb's ten year old brother, Trevor.

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Speaker 1: He theorizes that they are.

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Speaker 2: The plot of aliens from outer space who are plumping

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Speaker 2: people up with swooties and then harvesting the fat collected

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Speaker 2: from slimmers for fuel. That once the dots circle someone's

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Speaker 2: risk completely, they will be cold.

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Speaker 1: They're fat, content, no longer of value.

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Speaker 2: Of course, Deb in Trinja dismiss him, deb thinking quote,

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Speaker 2: humans would never sacrifice their freedom and dignity just so

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Speaker 2: they could eat and still be thin. Even aliens ought

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Speaker 2: to know that I could quit eating sweeties and using

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Speaker 2: those slimmers anytime I want. But all those little blue

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Speaker 2: marks TRENCHA and I have are beginning to look like

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Speaker 2: delicate tattooed bracelets, and we both think they look really

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Speaker 2: neat on our wrist.

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Speaker 1: And that's the end. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: So it was interesting to reread this because it's been

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Speaker 2: what two decades almost since I'd read.

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Speaker 1: It, and I couldn't find it and why One.

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Speaker 2: Night I just was determined to find it and I

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Speaker 2: think I texted you about it.

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Speaker 1: Then I was like, we got to talk about this.

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Speaker 2: But one thing in there I kind of wanted to

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Speaker 2: talk about because I moll culture is kind of dying,

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Speaker 2: has been dying.

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Speaker 1: But when I was grown up, this was a thing.

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Speaker 1: You you go to the mall.

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Speaker 2: You would get your your frozen yogurt or whatever it was,

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Speaker 2: and there's just so much.

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Speaker 1: The pretzels are so good. Yes, I know exactly what

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Speaker 1: you're talking about. I love them too.

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Speaker 2: Oh yeah, And you would kind of hang out with

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Speaker 2: your friends and do this, and I think probably in

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Speaker 2: middle school to high school I would.

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Speaker 1: I would hang out with friends at the mall sometimes.

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Speaker 2: But you know, we both grew up in small towns,

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Speaker 2: so this was a big endeavor, Like you had to

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Speaker 2: get out. Yeah, it was like at least an hour

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Speaker 2: away to get to to a mall. But I do

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Speaker 2: think throughout this and even we just see it everywhere,

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Speaker 2: is this kind of fad diet idea, this diet culture thing,

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Speaker 2: this fat phobia of people wanting to eat these delicious

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Speaker 2: sounding things but not wanting to gain any weight from it.

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Speaker 2: And I don't think I've ever done a fad diet

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Speaker 2: per se but I've dieted.

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Speaker 1: I've definitely done some extreme diet, right.

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Speaker 3: I would think that I did not do many fad

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Speaker 3: diets because I just that too too much discipline and

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Speaker 3: I didn't have that meaning like whatever. The whole thirty

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Speaker 3: I think existed. And I know Atkins was a huge

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Speaker 3: thing when I was in college, and so people were

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Speaker 3: all about it, and I'd like, there's no way only

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Speaker 3: eating meat is healthy for you. There's no way.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: But again, like I was like, whatever, people do what

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Speaker 3: they need to do. I'm not gonna I'm not gonna

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Speaker 3: push or judge or anything. But I could not do it.

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Speaker 3: But I was all about the calorie counting, like that

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Speaker 3: is something that I have been really dangerously obsessed with,

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Speaker 3: like keeping underneath a certain amount, And that's my session,

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Speaker 3: was that instead of just necessarily like and I guess

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Speaker 3: Caldari accounting is a fad of itself, like kind of

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Speaker 3: a trend in itself tactic, but yeah, it's the whole

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Speaker 3: level of like, Okay, this level of obsession, Yeah, there's

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Speaker 3: something to be concerned about.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: I was the same, And I think I told you

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Speaker 2: for a while I was keeping I was using an

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Speaker 2: app to keep track, and the app actually sent me

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Speaker 2: a message and it said, if this is true, this

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Speaker 2: is dangerous.

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Speaker 3: Right.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, this is so pervasive, and we've talked about it

359
00:19:34,400 --> 00:19:37,840
Speaker 2: a lot, but especially for younger girls who are kind

360
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Speaker 2: of observing through perhaps our moms or other people in

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Speaker 2: our lives are entertainment, Like maybe we're not directly getting

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00:19:47,480 --> 00:19:51,399
Speaker 2: the messages, which we usually are, but there's also just

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00:19:51,440 --> 00:19:56,040
Speaker 2: this underlying everywhere you look or everything you hear, that

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00:19:56,320 --> 00:20:00,080
Speaker 2: you should look this way. And I think for me,

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00:20:00,440 --> 00:20:05,520
Speaker 2: it's still hard to just enjoy something, to just enjoy,

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Speaker 2: Like if I had a swootie, I would be thinking

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Speaker 2: like a whole day like guilt. I'd be feeling guilty

368
00:20:12,680 --> 00:20:17,000
Speaker 2: and like how can I counteract that, which is just

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Speaker 2: not a fun I'm not saying you shouldn't be aware

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Speaker 2: of what you're putting in your body, but I think

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Speaker 2: it goes beyond that.

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Speaker 1: It goes to you can't.

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Speaker 2: Have those, You can't have anything without feeling guilty about it,

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Speaker 2: to be honest, right, yeah, and sort of that whole

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Speaker 2: idea at the end of where they say, you know,

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Speaker 2: we would never give up everything just to look this.

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00:20:42,680 --> 00:20:43,359
Speaker 1: Way, and.

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Speaker 2: Kind of I've been thinking about that in terms of

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Speaker 2: what we talked about recently with the pandemic and health

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Speaker 2: and how you and I were saying, like, we know

381
00:20:52,680 --> 00:20:54,480
Speaker 2: we're going to pay for this, just like the title

382
00:20:54,520 --> 00:20:56,920
Speaker 2: of the story is like we know I'm not going

383
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Speaker 2: into the dentist. I need to go to the dentist

384
00:21:00,200 --> 00:21:02,800
Speaker 2: for this later, but kind of that putting off of

385
00:21:03,720 --> 00:21:05,800
Speaker 2: right now, I would rather look this way and I

386
00:21:05,840 --> 00:21:12,199
Speaker 2: will deal with the impacts later, which is very not

387
00:21:12,320 --> 00:21:14,600
Speaker 2: eating disorder territory.

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00:21:17,040 --> 00:21:17,680
Speaker 1: Yeah.

389
00:21:17,720 --> 00:21:21,199
Speaker 2: And then another big theme throughout this is sort of

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Speaker 2: the whole idea if it sounds too good to be true,

391
00:21:24,440 --> 00:21:28,119
Speaker 2: it probably is. There is a whole Seinfeld episode about

392
00:21:28,119 --> 00:21:30,480
Speaker 2: actually frozen yogurt and this very thing.

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Speaker 1: There's not aliens.

394
00:21:31,840 --> 00:21:35,000
Speaker 2: Involved, but there is lying about content in the ingredients.

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Speaker 5: Right.

396
00:21:36,480 --> 00:21:38,080
Speaker 1: Also this whole idea of no such thing as a

397
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Speaker 1: free lunch.

398
00:21:38,600 --> 00:21:41,560
Speaker 2: You know, they're giving away this free yogurt and people

399
00:21:41,600 --> 00:21:43,520
Speaker 2: aren't really asking questions because they like it.

400
00:21:44,560 --> 00:21:46,800
Speaker 1: So it's a big theme throughout.

401
00:21:48,160 --> 00:21:50,760
Speaker 2: And then just because you know, I love this, Santa,

402
00:21:51,200 --> 00:21:53,160
Speaker 2: I wanted to touch on some of the old teck

403
00:21:55,119 --> 00:21:58,679
Speaker 2: because this takes place in twenty forty one, right, but

404
00:21:59,040 --> 00:22:01,080
Speaker 2: you can tell it's a bit very much an imagined

405
00:22:01,160 --> 00:22:02,800
Speaker 2: future that is the product of its time.

406
00:22:02,920 --> 00:22:04,399
Speaker 1: Also, it was written for children.

407
00:22:04,480 --> 00:22:08,439
Speaker 2: It was specifically aimed towards I think it was I

408
00:22:08,440 --> 00:22:09,760
Speaker 2: read it high school, but I think it was aimed

409
00:22:09,760 --> 00:22:11,080
Speaker 2: towards like seventh and eighth grade.

410
00:22:11,800 --> 00:22:15,280
Speaker 1: But there's the fax machine. I love that.

411
00:22:15,680 --> 00:22:19,440
Speaker 2: In the eighties and nineties we thought the facts machines.

412
00:22:19,920 --> 00:22:22,560
Speaker 3: That's the whole like the future for back to the

413
00:22:22,680 --> 00:22:27,160
Speaker 3: fututure literally is how they communicate is via TV, which

414
00:22:27,240 --> 00:22:30,320
Speaker 3: they weren't wrong because they can do that the whole

415
00:22:30,359 --> 00:22:34,000
Speaker 3: like computer like skyping video which didn't exist at that

416
00:22:34,000 --> 00:22:36,960
Speaker 3: point in time. But also the fact machine that was

417
00:22:37,000 --> 00:22:42,400
Speaker 3: in every room, that every household had, that was the

418
00:22:42,440 --> 00:22:43,600
Speaker 3: prediction of the future.

419
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Speaker 1: I know, it cracks me up every time.

420
00:22:48,640 --> 00:22:51,560
Speaker 2: Also, yes, that malls would still be kind of this

421
00:22:51,640 --> 00:22:53,360
Speaker 2: place where we congregate and hang out.

422
00:22:53,359 --> 00:22:55,280
Speaker 1: And maybe mam also make a comeback. I don't know,

423
00:22:55,840 --> 00:22:57,600
Speaker 1: but right.

424
00:22:57,359 --> 00:23:00,159
Speaker 2: Now, I don't they seem to be on their way

425
00:23:00,160 --> 00:23:05,159
Speaker 2: out right, Yes, And then yeah, Japan has an economic power,

426
00:23:05,680 --> 00:23:09,480
Speaker 2: So I just I find all that interesting when people

427
00:23:09,520 --> 00:23:12,240
Speaker 2: are imagining the future, and I mean, twenty forty one

428
00:23:12,359 --> 00:23:15,399
Speaker 2: isn't that far away, as scary as that is, right,

429
00:23:15,480 --> 00:23:17,960
Speaker 2: but yeah, it's just sort of interesting to see where

430
00:23:17,960 --> 00:23:25,479
Speaker 2: we are versus what people imagined would be the future. Okay,

431
00:23:25,560 --> 00:23:28,200
Speaker 2: so I do recommend like if as long as you're

432
00:23:28,720 --> 00:23:31,639
Speaker 2: not going to be triggered by Await issues, which I

433
00:23:31,640 --> 00:23:34,960
Speaker 2: totally understand if you are, and it's definitely I would

434
00:23:34,960 --> 00:23:38,439
Speaker 2: say don't risk it, although you've already come through this,

435
00:23:38,680 --> 00:23:41,120
Speaker 2: so I recommend it. Like I said, you can find

436
00:23:41,240 --> 00:23:42,840
Speaker 2: you can find it for free online. It's really short,

437
00:23:42,840 --> 00:23:59,440
Speaker 2: it's like seven pages. But moving on, let's talk about

438
00:23:59,640 --> 00:24:02,879
Speaker 2: the Album of Susan, which is a Neil game and

439
00:24:03,000 --> 00:24:06,199
Speaker 2: short story you can also find online for free. But

440
00:24:06,280 --> 00:24:09,320
Speaker 2: it's also a whole concept now and we're going to

441
00:24:09,359 --> 00:24:13,199
Speaker 2: talk about that a bit. And I did think, you know,

442
00:24:13,240 --> 00:24:17,080
Speaker 2: we don't normally try to highlight works by men in

443
00:24:17,119 --> 00:24:20,840
Speaker 2: this segment, but because it did become this whole thing

444
00:24:20,960 --> 00:24:23,959
Speaker 2: to describe this issue which we are going to talk

445
00:24:24,000 --> 00:24:25,920
Speaker 2: about if you haven't heard of it, I also thought

446
00:24:25,960 --> 00:24:29,119
Speaker 2: about Forever Winter Never Christmas, which is kind of the

447
00:24:29,160 --> 00:24:32,919
Speaker 2: whole thing of the Lion, which and Wardrobe, right is

448
00:24:33,000 --> 00:24:37,520
Speaker 2: Narnia's Forever Winter Never Christmas, and as a lot of

449
00:24:37,600 --> 00:24:41,040
Speaker 2: us are preparing to enter a weekend of snow and chills.

450
00:24:42,680 --> 00:24:45,840
Speaker 2: I thought it was appropriate. So did you ever read

451
00:24:45,880 --> 00:24:47,399
Speaker 2: the Chronicles of Narniasmantha?

452
00:24:47,520 --> 00:24:50,600
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, oh yeah. I actually had the old school

453
00:24:50,680 --> 00:24:54,639
Speaker 3: version of it where it begins with the Lion, the

454
00:24:54,640 --> 00:24:58,520
Speaker 3: Witch and the wardrobe, right, all of the sixties drawings

455
00:24:58,880 --> 00:25:02,439
Speaker 3: and his glory. I lost it in a fire, and

456
00:25:02,480 --> 00:25:05,040
Speaker 3: I've been on the search for that type of that

457
00:25:05,080 --> 00:25:09,639
Speaker 3: specific series because I don't like this new switch up

458
00:25:09,640 --> 00:25:12,000
Speaker 3: with the Magician's Nephew, which we know is a prequel.

459
00:25:12,160 --> 00:25:14,560
Speaker 3: I know, but it doesn't belong in there like that.

460
00:25:14,760 --> 00:25:16,880
Speaker 3: He wrote it like that for a reason. I'm weirdly

461
00:25:17,400 --> 00:25:21,239
Speaker 3: purist about that. I don't know why necessarily so. But

462
00:25:21,280 --> 00:25:23,080
Speaker 3: I really have been trying to find the old school

463
00:25:23,160 --> 00:25:27,400
Speaker 3: versions of it because I really loved those books. And

464
00:25:27,480 --> 00:25:29,600
Speaker 3: it wasn't until you brought this back up that I

465
00:25:29,720 --> 00:25:34,080
Speaker 3: forgot the last battle. I completely forgot what happened out

466
00:25:34,119 --> 00:25:36,480
Speaker 3: of my head. I don't know, because you know, it's

467
00:25:36,480 --> 00:25:38,680
Speaker 3: been so long, and it's been a long long time,

468
00:25:39,240 --> 00:25:42,679
Speaker 3: and I used these books when I was teaching the

469
00:25:42,720 --> 00:25:46,640
Speaker 3: Bible as part of my curriculum, in talking about each

470
00:25:46,680 --> 00:25:49,640
Speaker 3: of the characters and I really did forget about Susan's

471
00:25:49,680 --> 00:25:52,480
Speaker 3: character at the end, and I was like, oh, oh yeah,

472
00:25:52,760 --> 00:25:56,040
Speaker 3: Oh so there's a whole level of like trying to

473
00:25:56,160 --> 00:26:01,320
Speaker 3: remember where we came from with this. Also in the

474
00:26:01,320 --> 00:26:04,360
Speaker 3: movie Ben Barnes. That's where I was introduced to Ben Barnes.

475
00:26:04,680 --> 00:26:08,040
Speaker 3: In the second movie Who is Westworld? Yeah, he was

476
00:26:08,040 --> 00:26:09,080
Speaker 3: a bad guy in Westworld?

477
00:26:09,520 --> 00:26:12,440
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, and then he was Yeah, he.

478
00:26:12,400 --> 00:26:14,440
Speaker 3: Was in several other movies, and he's in several other

479
00:26:14,520 --> 00:26:17,439
Speaker 3: shows that I absolutely love. He was in He's one

480
00:26:17,480 --> 00:26:19,439
Speaker 3: of the marvel ones. Is it Iron Fists? I think

481
00:26:19,440 --> 00:26:23,840
Speaker 3: he's in Iron Fist, which is forgettable. But any of

482
00:26:23,840 --> 00:26:26,840
Speaker 3: those things I can't remember. But I loved Ben Barnes

483
00:26:26,840 --> 00:26:30,080
Speaker 3: and I think he's fantastic. But this, I remember them

484
00:26:30,080 --> 00:26:33,399
Speaker 3: trying to pair him and Susan up of like, ew, yeah,

485
00:26:33,600 --> 00:26:37,280
Speaker 3: he's twenty years older than her. Sof this that's the

486
00:26:37,320 --> 00:26:41,159
Speaker 3: sidetracking of all of Chronicles of Narnia. But yes, I

487
00:26:41,200 --> 00:26:43,560
Speaker 3: loved it, loved it, loved it. I loved C. S.

488
00:26:43,600 --> 00:26:47,000
Speaker 3: Lewis during that time in my wondering because he also

489
00:26:47,080 --> 00:26:52,120
Speaker 3: wasn't as a big snob as Tolkien. I'm sorry when

490
00:26:52,119 --> 00:26:55,320
Speaker 3: it comes to English literature. I know people are very

491
00:26:55,640 --> 00:26:59,399
Speaker 3: very like Purest in that mode too, and so therefore

492
00:26:59,600 --> 00:27:02,800
Speaker 3: felt like he was a little more open. Do I agree.

493
00:27:03,040 --> 00:27:04,680
Speaker 3: Like thinking back on it now and I'm like, oh,

494
00:27:04,680 --> 00:27:08,359
Speaker 3: I have a whole different perspective, but yeah, yeah, but

495
00:27:08,760 --> 00:27:10,000
Speaker 3: a lot to me at that point in time.

496
00:27:10,480 --> 00:27:13,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, I loved them when I was a kid, I

497
00:27:13,080 --> 00:27:16,600
Speaker 2: loved There was an animated lion Whige and The Wardrobe

498
00:27:16,600 --> 00:27:20,200
Speaker 2: I loved, and I went through such an intense period

499
00:27:20,280 --> 00:27:22,720
Speaker 2: of loving them that I actually wrote fan fiction for it.

500
00:27:22,760 --> 00:27:25,000
Speaker 1: Of course you don't, yeah, but I mean it's pretty

501
00:27:26,800 --> 00:27:28,400
Speaker 1: It's kind of rare. There are things that.

502
00:27:28,400 --> 00:27:31,119
Speaker 2: I love, love, love more than I loved that that

503
00:27:31,200 --> 00:27:33,640
Speaker 2: I never wrote fan fiction for. But I wrote fan

504
00:27:33,680 --> 00:27:36,240
Speaker 2: fiction for it, and that's that's pretty indicative of how

505
00:27:36,320 --> 00:27:39,760
Speaker 2: much I loved it. I If in case anyone doesn't

506
00:27:39,760 --> 00:27:41,240
Speaker 2: know what we're talking about, I'm gonna explain it more

507
00:27:41,280 --> 00:27:43,720
Speaker 2: in a second. But depending on when you bought these

508
00:27:43,760 --> 00:27:46,840
Speaker 2: are a book series of seven books. I bought them

509
00:27:46,840 --> 00:27:49,200
Speaker 2: at the time when The Magician's Nephew was the first

510
00:27:49,680 --> 00:27:55,640
Speaker 2: in the series, but for people before me, U Lion,

511
00:27:55,640 --> 00:27:57,119
Speaker 2: which in The Wardrobe came first.

512
00:27:57,160 --> 00:27:59,920
Speaker 1: So if you're confused by that. I did.

513
00:28:00,080 --> 00:28:01,640
Speaker 2: I loved it, and then I just got so weird

514
00:28:01,680 --> 00:28:05,200
Speaker 2: about religion and then I kind of just turned away.

515
00:28:05,680 --> 00:28:08,960
Speaker 2: But I do remember them pretty well, and we're gonna, yeah,

516
00:28:09,000 --> 00:28:11,199
Speaker 2: we're gonna get into all of this, but okay, for

517
00:28:11,240 --> 00:28:14,000
Speaker 2: anyone who doesn't know, The Chronicles of Narnia is yes,

518
00:28:14,080 --> 00:28:16,520
Speaker 2: a seven book series written by C. S. Lewis, first

519
00:28:16,560 --> 00:28:19,840
Speaker 2: published in nineteen fifty through nineteen fifty six, and there

520
00:28:19,840 --> 00:28:23,000
Speaker 2: have since been animated and live adaptions for the screen.

521
00:28:23,520 --> 00:28:25,800
Speaker 2: We're not going to go too deeply into the plot.

522
00:28:26,200 --> 00:28:29,199
Speaker 2: Weirdly enough, you can check out the Savor podcast that

523
00:28:29,280 --> 00:28:32,240
Speaker 2: I do. We did an episode on fictional foods of

524
00:28:32,320 --> 00:28:33,760
Speaker 2: Narnia for more information.

525
00:28:33,920 --> 00:28:36,359
Speaker 3: We really want to stortish to light then tell me

526
00:28:36,440 --> 00:28:38,760
Speaker 3: that because I have a weird picture in my head.

527
00:28:38,800 --> 00:28:40,560
Speaker 3: And then when someone told me what it was, I

528
00:28:40,600 --> 00:28:41,200
Speaker 3: was like, wait.

529
00:28:41,000 --> 00:28:46,360
Speaker 2: What Yeah, So it's kind of a gelatine based It's

530
00:28:46,440 --> 00:28:50,360
Speaker 2: usually lightly sweet with like rose and it's got some

531
00:28:50,480 --> 00:28:51,080
Speaker 2: chagrin top.

532
00:28:51,120 --> 00:28:54,680
Speaker 1: But it's sort of a gelatine light dessert.

533
00:28:55,800 --> 00:28:59,080
Speaker 2: Now, Okay, that being said, a lot of people have

534
00:28:59,120 --> 00:29:04,680
Speaker 2: said it's kind of represents drugs. Drugs casey, yes, because

535
00:29:05,400 --> 00:29:10,520
Speaker 2: it is something that the witch gives out to Edmund

536
00:29:10,600 --> 00:29:12,400
Speaker 2: in particular in this case, to kind of get him

537
00:29:12,440 --> 00:29:16,720
Speaker 2: hooked anyway, I love Anybody who.

538
00:29:16,600 --> 00:29:18,760
Speaker 1: Doesn't know what we're talking about must be what is

539
00:29:18,840 --> 00:29:19,600
Speaker 1: going on here.

540
00:29:20,280 --> 00:29:25,040
Speaker 3: There's so many there is literal Christian workbooks that go

541
00:29:25,120 --> 00:29:29,600
Speaker 3: along with the series to talk about and analyze the

542
00:29:29,680 --> 00:29:33,000
Speaker 3: depth of the pretty much the origin story. So it's

543
00:29:33,080 --> 00:29:35,440
Speaker 3: kind of like saying this is a Higgin Genesis into

544
00:29:35,440 --> 00:29:37,959
Speaker 3: a modern daytail, which is also why Tokien didn't like it.

545
00:29:37,960 --> 00:29:39,880
Speaker 3: He was like, as you're hitting there being too obvious

546
00:29:39,920 --> 00:29:40,800
Speaker 3: and over the top.

547
00:29:41,240 --> 00:29:44,400
Speaker 2: Right back to right, which we'll touch on in a

548
00:29:44,400 --> 00:29:47,880
Speaker 2: second more a little bit. But Okay, despite the fact

549
00:29:47,880 --> 00:29:50,840
Speaker 2: that Lewis, who yes, wrote a lot about religion, was

550
00:29:51,000 --> 00:29:55,240
Speaker 2: adamant these books weren't an allegory a religious allegory and

551
00:29:55,280 --> 00:29:58,960
Speaker 2: specific they have often been interpreted through your religious lens,

552
00:29:59,240 --> 00:30:05,160
Speaker 2: with Narnia being Heaven and Aslan being God and or Jesus.

553
00:30:05,760 --> 00:30:11,200
Speaker 2: There's even a whole magic apple temptation thing that goes on. Yeah,

554
00:30:11,200 --> 00:30:13,040
Speaker 2: there's a lot we could get into, but that would

555
00:30:13,040 --> 00:30:16,840
Speaker 2: be a different podcast. So for our purposes, we're focusing

556
00:30:16,880 --> 00:30:20,840
Speaker 2: on the Pevensey children, Peter, Susan, Edmund, and Lucy, who

557
00:30:21,040 --> 00:30:23,760
Speaker 2: have adventures and become royalty in Narnia.

558
00:30:24,440 --> 00:30:27,120
Speaker 1: However, as Susan grows.

559
00:30:26,840 --> 00:30:29,560
Speaker 2: Older, she is quote no longer a friend of Narnia

560
00:30:29,960 --> 00:30:33,440
Speaker 2: AKA for a lot of people, yep, heaven. Even though yes,

561
00:30:33,640 --> 00:30:36,920
Speaker 2: Lewis disputed this and said perhaps one day Susan could

562
00:30:36,960 --> 00:30:39,440
Speaker 2: find her way.

563
00:30:39,520 --> 00:30:40,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, she's the.

564
00:30:40,120 --> 00:30:44,280
Speaker 2: Second oldest, she's the oldest daughter of this group. But

565
00:30:44,760 --> 00:30:47,720
Speaker 2: so why is she no longer a friend of Narnia?

566
00:30:47,840 --> 00:30:50,760
Speaker 2: Here we go, here's the whole exchange from the book

567
00:30:50,840 --> 00:30:53,760
Speaker 2: The Last Battle, which is the final book My sister,

568
00:30:53,840 --> 00:30:55,960
Speaker 2: Susan answered Peter shortly and gravely.

569
00:30:56,120 --> 00:30:57,760
Speaker 1: Is no longer a friend of Narnia?

570
00:30:58,040 --> 00:31:00,720
Speaker 3: Yes, said Eustace. And whenever you try to get her

571
00:31:00,760 --> 00:31:03,880
Speaker 3: to come and talk about Narnia or do anything about Narnia,

572
00:31:04,000 --> 00:31:08,080
Speaker 3: she says, what wonderful memories you have? Fancy you're still

573
00:31:08,120 --> 00:31:10,320
Speaker 3: thinking about all those funny games we used to play

574
00:31:10,320 --> 00:31:11,280
Speaker 3: when we were children.

575
00:31:11,920 --> 00:31:13,280
Speaker 1: Oh, Susan, said Jill.

576
00:31:13,440 --> 00:31:17,760
Speaker 2: She's interested in nothing nowadays except nylons and lipsticks and invitations.

577
00:31:17,960 --> 00:31:20,200
Speaker 2: She always was a jolly sight too, keen on being

578
00:31:20,280 --> 00:31:21,000
Speaker 2: grown up.

579
00:31:21,720 --> 00:31:24,960
Speaker 3: Grown up indeed said the lady Polly, I wish you

580
00:31:24,960 --> 00:31:27,960
Speaker 3: would grow up. She wasted all her school time wanting

581
00:31:28,040 --> 00:31:30,520
Speaker 3: to be the age she is now, and she'll waste

582
00:31:30,640 --> 00:31:33,200
Speaker 3: all the rest of her life trying to stay that age.

583
00:31:33,480 --> 00:31:36,240
Speaker 3: Her whole idea is to race onto the silliest time

584
00:31:36,560 --> 00:31:38,560
Speaker 3: of one's life as quick as she can, and then

585
00:31:38,600 --> 00:31:40,240
Speaker 3: stop there as long as she can.

586
00:31:41,000 --> 00:31:43,120
Speaker 1: Yep, and that's pretty much it.

587
00:31:43,840 --> 00:31:47,040
Speaker 2: That's pretty much the attitude about her from everyone, her

588
00:31:47,080 --> 00:31:52,240
Speaker 2: family and friends. Notably, Lucy doesn't say anything during this exchange,

589
00:31:52,400 --> 00:31:56,800
Speaker 2: Aslyn doesn't sing anything during this exchange, right.

590
00:31:57,680 --> 00:32:00,000
Speaker 3: I find it like, again, we'll come back to it.

591
00:32:00,120 --> 00:32:03,800
Speaker 3: But in my mind she at the very first book

592
00:32:04,120 --> 00:32:06,440
Speaker 3: she was already too grown as well, and they accused

593
00:32:06,560 --> 00:32:09,720
Speaker 3: her of that from jump, So I found that interesting

594
00:32:09,800 --> 00:32:12,560
Speaker 3: that that's how it built up. But again I forgot

595
00:32:12,600 --> 00:32:14,560
Speaker 3: the last battle completely, So.

596
00:32:16,480 --> 00:32:17,200
Speaker 1: Well, here we go.

597
00:32:17,840 --> 00:32:22,080
Speaker 3: Susan was always the more practical one. She was a caregiver,

598
00:32:22,200 --> 00:32:25,160
Speaker 3: and I feel like that seems on brand, which makes

599
00:32:25,200 --> 00:32:28,160
Speaker 3: sense because the children had lost their mother and she

600
00:32:28,280 --> 00:32:30,440
Speaker 3: was always making sure they had their codes and that

601
00:32:30,520 --> 00:32:33,960
Speaker 3: they ate. She is the oldest girl and referred to

602
00:32:34,000 --> 00:32:37,480
Speaker 3: as quote little mother. She was kind, gentle, and yes,

603
00:32:37,680 --> 00:32:41,880
Speaker 3: very beautiful. So what's the issue. It seemed to be

604
00:32:42,040 --> 00:32:47,600
Speaker 3: she's choosing being an adult over Narnia and Aslan the fantasy. Essentially.

605
00:32:48,400 --> 00:32:50,840
Speaker 3: Lewis wrote in a letter about her that she was

606
00:32:51,160 --> 00:32:55,600
Speaker 3: quote a rather silly, conceited young woman, even though that

607
00:32:55,640 --> 00:32:58,000
Speaker 3: really doesn't seem to match up with everything else we

608
00:32:58,120 --> 00:33:01,200
Speaker 3: the readers knew about her all though we are supposed

609
00:33:01,200 --> 00:33:04,880
Speaker 3: to think her annoying. Some believe he did this more

610
00:33:04,920 --> 00:33:08,480
Speaker 3: out of his need for her to represent something quote

611
00:33:08,520 --> 00:33:11,880
Speaker 3: the believer that walks away from faith, instead of telling

612
00:33:11,920 --> 00:33:13,520
Speaker 3: the story true to the character.

613
00:33:13,920 --> 00:33:14,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, so.

614
00:33:16,160 --> 00:33:19,200
Speaker 2: There's this is kind of a tricky conversation actually because

615
00:33:20,200 --> 00:33:22,080
Speaker 2: and we're going to get into it, but it almost

616
00:33:22,160 --> 00:33:27,600
Speaker 2: seems like it was just confusion, Like it was kind

617
00:33:27,640 --> 00:33:31,520
Speaker 2: of out of nowhere. There was no attempt like this.

618
00:33:31,600 --> 00:33:33,760
Speaker 2: There was suspension of her. She's not coming back to

619
00:33:33,840 --> 00:33:36,040
Speaker 2: Narnia and that's it. Like there was no attempt to

620
00:33:36,240 --> 00:33:38,200
Speaker 2: redeem her or talk to her or anything with her.

621
00:33:38,480 --> 00:33:41,680
Speaker 2: It was just like, oh, never talk about her.

622
00:33:41,600 --> 00:33:45,680
Speaker 3: Again, right, yeah again. Like I said to you when

623
00:33:45,680 --> 00:33:48,280
Speaker 3: we were originally talking about this, I was like I

624
00:33:48,320 --> 00:33:50,120
Speaker 3: had to go back and figure out what happened because

625
00:33:50,160 --> 00:33:54,000
Speaker 3: I didn't exactly understand what just happened when I read

626
00:33:54,120 --> 00:33:57,200
Speaker 3: originally read the book and to the point, and we're

627
00:33:57,200 --> 00:33:58,920
Speaker 3: going to talk about more about this later, I know,

628
00:33:59,000 --> 00:34:02,800
Speaker 3: but was during the time that Passion and Purity was big.

629
00:34:03,120 --> 00:34:06,080
Speaker 3: I don't know if you know this book. Annie, I'm

630
00:34:06,080 --> 00:34:08,200
Speaker 3: so sorry. I'm very critical. I'm so sorry for the

631
00:34:08,239 --> 00:34:10,959
Speaker 3: religious listeners if you're offended by this, but I will

632
00:34:11,000 --> 00:34:13,640
Speaker 3: say it brought me a lot of pain. This one

633
00:34:13,680 --> 00:34:16,879
Speaker 3: book that talks about a woman's place in religion. It

634
00:34:16,920 --> 00:34:22,280
Speaker 3: is very stereotypical in some of the things that I

635
00:34:22,400 --> 00:34:24,399
Speaker 3: get what they're saying, but at the same time could

636
00:34:24,440 --> 00:34:26,719
Speaker 3: be really damaging to women. We talked about this during

637
00:34:26,760 --> 00:34:30,359
Speaker 3: the Purity during our episode, but I think that's what

638
00:34:30,400 --> 00:34:36,080
Speaker 3: Susan represented as being anti Christian woman, right if that

639
00:34:36,160 --> 00:34:37,160
Speaker 3: means too worldly?

640
00:34:37,880 --> 00:34:40,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, no, that makes sense, And we're definitely gonna

641
00:34:40,760 --> 00:34:42,839
Speaker 2: break break some of that down to you and we

642
00:34:42,920 --> 00:34:45,400
Speaker 2: are one day going to do an episode on religious

643
00:34:45,400 --> 00:34:46,640
Speaker 2: trauma and that's going to be fun.

644
00:34:50,000 --> 00:34:54,200
Speaker 1: Was kind of frightened.

645
00:34:56,520 --> 00:34:59,239
Speaker 2: So another point to make here is Peter, who is

646
00:34:59,280 --> 00:35:01,239
Speaker 2: older than Susan and was told he was too old

647
00:35:01,280 --> 00:35:05,000
Speaker 2: to return to Narnia, but he did and she didn't,

648
00:35:05,239 --> 00:35:08,120
Speaker 2: and two male characters get painful redemption arcs, but she

649
00:35:08,200 --> 00:35:08,480
Speaker 2: does not.

650
00:35:08,680 --> 00:35:11,400
Speaker 1: And you mentioned earlier Smith, right, you see, this is.

651
00:35:11,640 --> 00:35:16,600
Speaker 3: One of the worst characters to me in this entire book.

652
00:35:17,320 --> 00:35:19,600
Speaker 3: And yes, it's supposed to be that he was childish

653
00:35:19,640 --> 00:35:23,000
Speaker 3: and didn't understand he'd gone through drama, he'd lost his

654
00:35:23,040 --> 00:35:27,440
Speaker 3: parents too, and was a brat essentially. But yeah, after

655
00:35:27,480 --> 00:35:29,719
Speaker 3: he just turned into a dragon for his greed and

656
00:35:29,760 --> 00:35:33,960
Speaker 3: then freedom of that spell, he repents essentially to Laslin

657
00:35:34,520 --> 00:35:37,000
Speaker 3: and becomes whole again. But yeah, I think it's really

658
00:35:37,000 --> 00:35:40,680
Speaker 3: interesting because Lucy and Edmund are too old, which is

659
00:35:40,680 --> 00:35:43,399
Speaker 3: why you see Eustace and Jill come into play, because

660
00:35:43,440 --> 00:35:46,240
Speaker 3: they're young enough to believe these so they technically aged

661
00:35:46,239 --> 00:35:46,640
Speaker 3: out too.

662
00:35:47,320 --> 00:35:50,719
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, and that's there are listeners.

663
00:35:51,480 --> 00:35:54,440
Speaker 2: You might be surprised at how many people have written

664
00:35:54,520 --> 00:35:58,920
Speaker 2: long essays about this, so so many, and they were

665
00:35:58,960 --> 00:36:01,360
Speaker 2: all really interesting in a lot of them had different viewpoints,

666
00:36:01,360 --> 00:36:05,239
Speaker 2: which I found interesting too. But somebody was saying, like, essentially,

667
00:36:05,520 --> 00:36:09,200
Speaker 2: the message we're supposed to take is that you have

668
00:36:09,280 --> 00:36:13,840
Speaker 2: to be young and believe, never grow up and never

669
00:36:14,120 --> 00:36:16,920
Speaker 2: like be an adult and take care of people, or

670
00:36:17,000 --> 00:36:19,439
Speaker 2: you can't go to what has essentially happened.

671
00:36:20,080 --> 00:36:22,840
Speaker 3: Right, So it's and I just remember the saying I

672
00:36:22,920 --> 00:36:26,200
Speaker 3: have somewhere in one of my journals. I went through

673
00:36:26,280 --> 00:36:29,560
Speaker 3: and did a whole dive not only in the books,

674
00:36:29,840 --> 00:36:33,840
Speaker 3: but compared it to specific Bible verses like I went in.

675
00:36:34,760 --> 00:36:37,759
Speaker 3: So yeah, again when I say, these meant a lot

676
00:36:37,800 --> 00:36:40,080
Speaker 3: to me in that point in time. Yeah, And essentially

677
00:36:40,080 --> 00:36:43,279
Speaker 3: this is kind of a play into childlike faith, like

678
00:36:43,360 --> 00:36:46,120
Speaker 3: he was being literal, even though he probably would deny it,

679
00:36:46,200 --> 00:36:48,400
Speaker 3: but it is literal, right.

680
00:36:49,200 --> 00:36:50,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, no, no, no oh.

681
00:36:50,880 --> 00:36:54,080
Speaker 2: He's got a lot of interesting quotes about this, CS Lewis.

682
00:37:08,840 --> 00:37:10,919
Speaker 2: But okay, going back to what you were saying about,

683
00:37:10,960 --> 00:37:13,759
Speaker 2: you know, the good Christian woman. I think a lot

684
00:37:13,800 --> 00:37:16,160
Speaker 2: of folks thought that this whole sort of writing out

685
00:37:16,160 --> 00:37:20,840
Speaker 2: of Susan was more that she had become shallow. But

686
00:37:21,400 --> 00:37:23,600
Speaker 2: a lot of people point out, and I think we

687
00:37:23,640 --> 00:37:26,759
Speaker 2: should point out that the things that are listed are

688
00:37:26,840 --> 00:37:32,160
Speaker 2: feminine things, patriarchal feminine things put on to Susan who

689
00:37:32,239 --> 00:37:34,400
Speaker 2: has been told she needs to be an adult and

690
00:37:34,440 --> 00:37:38,239
Speaker 2: take care of her siblings. And I think for a

691
00:37:38,280 --> 00:37:41,319
Speaker 2: long time my interpretation was that too. Before I kind

692
00:37:41,320 --> 00:37:42,920
Speaker 2: of got more nuanced as I grow up. Well as

693
00:37:42,960 --> 00:37:43,560
Speaker 2: a kid, I was.

694
00:37:43,520 --> 00:37:46,400
Speaker 1: Like, oh, she wants to grow up is just gross,

695
00:37:46,719 --> 00:37:47,840
Speaker 1: like so shallow.

696
00:37:47,920 --> 00:37:50,680
Speaker 2: She could go to Narnia and be having fun, but

697
00:37:50,719 --> 00:37:53,839
Speaker 2: instead she wants to do this. But it is very feminized,

698
00:37:53,880 --> 00:37:56,080
Speaker 2: Like we can't turn away from the fact that it

699
00:37:56,120 --> 00:37:58,279
Speaker 2: is purposely or not.

700
00:37:58,840 --> 00:38:02,000
Speaker 1: That is very feminized things he lists, right.

701
00:38:02,320 --> 00:38:04,960
Speaker 3: But also these are things that he lists when women

702
00:38:05,080 --> 00:38:08,080
Speaker 3: want to feel good about themselves. The lipstick, the stockings

703
00:38:08,200 --> 00:38:11,800
Speaker 3: are very specific during a time where you're supposed to

704
00:38:11,800 --> 00:38:15,680
Speaker 3: be natural and cowering, and so that was too bold

705
00:38:15,840 --> 00:38:17,920
Speaker 3: of her to be. So I feel like that's to

706
00:38:17,960 --> 00:38:21,040
Speaker 3: this day that would be listed as a good god

707
00:38:21,080 --> 00:38:24,680
Speaker 3: the character to dress up for your man only for

708
00:38:24,719 --> 00:38:29,080
Speaker 3: your man obviously or for your yeah, this man. This

709
00:38:29,160 --> 00:38:33,520
Speaker 3: is very also heteronormative in this this idea, but that fact,

710
00:38:34,440 --> 00:38:36,319
Speaker 3: at that point in time, that was even too much,

711
00:38:36,360 --> 00:38:40,520
Speaker 3: and that was being too loud, essentially too proud of

712
00:38:40,560 --> 00:38:42,880
Speaker 3: what you're looking like. And so for women to be

713
00:38:43,200 --> 00:38:46,239
Speaker 3: that at that point in time was a sin mm hm.

714
00:38:46,680 --> 00:38:49,120
Speaker 3: And so you see that turn like hmmm.

715
00:38:50,080 --> 00:38:52,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, And I mean I think in case we

716
00:38:52,960 --> 00:38:53,439
Speaker 2: didn't make.

717
00:38:53,320 --> 00:38:56,880
Speaker 1: It clear she's a teenager. I think she maybe twenty,

718
00:38:57,360 --> 00:38:57,680
Speaker 1: she's I.

719
00:38:57,680 --> 00:39:01,279
Speaker 3: Think she's early twenty, like getting at school a little.

720
00:39:01,000 --> 00:39:04,400
Speaker 1: Bit when this happens. So, I mean, it's just kind

721
00:39:04,440 --> 00:39:09,280
Speaker 1: of a natural for women.

722
00:39:09,440 --> 00:39:12,000
Speaker 2: But it does feel like when you're reading it, like,

723
00:39:12,120 --> 00:39:14,600
Speaker 2: oh wow, she can't go to Evan because she did this.

724
00:39:15,440 --> 00:39:16,640
Speaker 3: Okay, let's stick.

725
00:39:17,239 --> 00:39:17,839
Speaker 1: Yeah.

726
00:39:17,960 --> 00:39:21,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, And as as we said, already C. S Lewis,

727
00:39:21,880 --> 00:39:24,720
Speaker 2: he denies this, but also says she has time to repent,

728
00:39:25,000 --> 00:39:29,480
Speaker 2: like it's not over for her, but also it is

729
00:39:29,520 --> 00:39:29,839
Speaker 2: for us.

730
00:39:29,840 --> 00:39:33,680
Speaker 1: Because no one else wrote that story. We can imagine it.

731
00:39:33,719 --> 00:39:35,360
Speaker 1: We can write the fan fiction if we want.

732
00:39:35,719 --> 00:39:39,600
Speaker 2: But well, speaking of okay, all of this discussion around

733
00:39:39,600 --> 00:39:42,360
Speaker 2: this character led to Neil Gamean writing The Problem of

734
00:39:42,400 --> 00:39:44,879
Speaker 2: Susan in two thousand and four, and the phrase has

735
00:39:45,000 --> 00:39:48,240
Speaker 2: yes become sort of a catch all to describe feminist

736
00:39:48,320 --> 00:39:53,759
Speaker 2: and literary investigation into this character, which, as I said, there's.

737
00:39:53,600 --> 00:39:56,960
Speaker 1: A lot and it's actually really really interesting. I recommend

738
00:39:57,040 --> 00:39:58,520
Speaker 1: going to look into it more.

739
00:39:58,600 --> 00:40:01,200
Speaker 2: But this whole thing was later turned into a comic.

740
00:40:01,600 --> 00:40:04,040
Speaker 2: Both are fairly graphic in terms of violence and sex

741
00:40:04,120 --> 00:40:08,040
Speaker 2: and sexual violence, so just astixet if that's not something

742
00:40:08,080 --> 00:40:10,040
Speaker 2: you're into, you can definitely read about it and not

743
00:40:10,160 --> 00:40:13,280
Speaker 2: have to read the whole thing, which is also very short.

744
00:40:13,480 --> 00:40:16,840
Speaker 2: So the plot centers on Professor Hastings, an older woman

745
00:40:16,880 --> 00:40:20,319
Speaker 2: who strongly resembles Susan, who lost her family in a

746
00:40:20,360 --> 00:40:24,120
Speaker 2: train crash, which is how the Last Battle ended. Susan

747
00:40:24,160 --> 00:40:27,000
Speaker 2: loses her family in a train crash. It opens with

748
00:40:27,040 --> 00:40:29,040
Speaker 2: her dreaming that she is with her siblings on a

749
00:40:29,040 --> 00:40:33,279
Speaker 2: battlefield surrounded by the bodies of dead creatures. Later that day,

750
00:40:33,360 --> 00:40:35,480
Speaker 2: she is interviewed by a student named Greta, who is

751
00:40:35,480 --> 00:40:39,360
Speaker 2: doing a profile on Hastings for the Literary Chronicle. Hastings

752
00:40:39,400 --> 00:40:41,680
Speaker 2: is an author known for her work A Quest for

753
00:40:41,719 --> 00:40:45,480
Speaker 2: the Meanings in Children's Fiction. The two are discussing the

754
00:40:45,520 --> 00:40:48,280
Speaker 2: history of children's fiction and famous examples when Greta realizes

755
00:40:48,320 --> 00:40:51,240
Speaker 2: that Hastings lost her entire family in a train accident

756
00:40:51,280 --> 00:40:54,719
Speaker 2: and says, just like Susan, and she tells Hastings how

757
00:40:54,800 --> 00:40:57,239
Speaker 2: much that bothered her as a kid, so much so

758
00:40:57,320 --> 00:40:59,360
Speaker 2: that she spoke to her teacher about it, and the

759
00:40:59,400 --> 00:41:02,680
Speaker 2: teacher told her Susan still had time to repent not

760
00:41:02,719 --> 00:41:05,000
Speaker 2: believing and the sin of eve, so that was what

761
00:41:05,040 --> 00:41:07,160
Speaker 2: the teacher kind of said was her sin was not believing.

762
00:41:07,520 --> 00:41:10,479
Speaker 2: Also that whole thing with Eve that we.

763
00:41:10,400 --> 00:41:12,440
Speaker 3: Talked about being a woman. Yes, so all of this

764
00:41:12,600 --> 00:41:15,640
Speaker 3: prompts Greta to say, there must have been something else

765
00:41:15,760 --> 00:41:19,799
Speaker 3: wrong with Susan, something they didn't tell us, Otherwise she

766
00:41:19,800 --> 00:41:22,759
Speaker 3: wouldn't have been damned like that, denied the heaven of

767
00:41:22,840 --> 00:41:24,080
Speaker 3: Further up and further.

768
00:41:23,880 --> 00:41:26,799
Speaker 2: In, Hastings says that she doubted Susan had time for

769
00:41:26,840 --> 00:41:29,600
Speaker 2: lipstick and nylons after her whole family died, and that quote,

770
00:41:29,760 --> 00:41:31,680
Speaker 2: I don't know about the girl in the books, but

771
00:41:31,800 --> 00:41:34,439
Speaker 2: remaining behind would have also meant that she was able

772
00:41:34,440 --> 00:41:37,359
Speaker 2: to identify her brothers and her little sister's bodies. There

773
00:41:37,360 --> 00:41:39,080
Speaker 2: were a lot of people dead in that crash. I

774
00:41:39,160 --> 00:41:41,520
Speaker 2: was taken to a nearby school. It was the first

775
00:41:41,640 --> 00:41:43,919
Speaker 2: day of term and they had taken the bodies there.

776
00:41:44,160 --> 00:41:46,799
Speaker 2: My older brother looked okay, like he was asleep. The

777
00:41:46,840 --> 00:41:49,160
Speaker 2: other two were a bit messier. I remember looking at

778
00:41:49,200 --> 00:41:51,200
Speaker 2: them and thinking, what if I'm wrong, What if it's

779
00:41:51,239 --> 00:41:54,319
Speaker 2: not him? After all, my younger brother was decapitated. You know,

780
00:41:54,880 --> 00:41:57,040
Speaker 2: a god who would punish me for liking nylons and

781
00:41:57,080 --> 00:41:59,959
Speaker 2: parties by making me walk through that school dining room

782
00:42:00,200 --> 00:42:03,920
Speaker 2: with the flies to identify ed. Well, he's enjoying himself

783
00:42:03,920 --> 00:42:06,080
Speaker 2: a bit too much as any, like a cat getting

784
00:42:06,080 --> 00:42:08,440
Speaker 2: the last ounce of enjoyment out of a mouse.

785
00:42:08,600 --> 00:42:11,080
Speaker 3: Right, which is how the story begins, by the way, Yeah,

786
00:42:11,239 --> 00:42:14,600
Speaker 3: Hastins cuts the interview short, and that night sleeps in

787
00:42:14,600 --> 00:42:18,600
Speaker 3: her childhood bed looking through old photos. She notices children's

788
00:42:18,640 --> 00:42:21,839
Speaker 3: books on the bedside tables and knows she's dreaming because

789
00:42:21,880 --> 00:42:24,520
Speaker 3: she's never kept these kinds of books around. The One

790
00:42:24,560 --> 00:42:27,320
Speaker 3: on top of the pile shows two girls weaving daisies

791
00:42:27,320 --> 00:42:31,640
Speaker 3: into a lion's main Meanwhile, Greta dreams that she is

792
00:42:31,680 --> 00:42:34,840
Speaker 3: on the same battlefield in Asla and the witch have

793
00:42:34,960 --> 00:42:38,080
Speaker 3: come to an agreement. She will take the boys and

794
00:42:38,120 --> 00:42:41,760
Speaker 3: he will take the girls. She understands what must have happened,

795
00:42:41,800 --> 00:42:44,080
Speaker 3: and she runs, but the beast is upon her before

796
00:42:44,120 --> 00:42:47,239
Speaker 3: she's covered a dozen paces. The lion eats all of

797
00:42:47,280 --> 00:42:50,000
Speaker 3: her except her head, but this is all in her dream,

798
00:42:50,400 --> 00:42:52,480
Speaker 3: and he leaves the head in one of her hands,

799
00:42:52,920 --> 00:42:54,520
Speaker 3: just like the house cat at the beginning of the

800
00:42:54,560 --> 00:42:57,840
Speaker 3: story leaves parts of a mouse it has no desire

801
00:42:57,920 --> 00:43:01,600
Speaker 3: for for later or as a gift, again referencing how

802
00:43:01,800 --> 00:43:04,360
Speaker 3: Susan found a mouse at the door bats at the

803
00:43:04,400 --> 00:43:05,200
Speaker 3: beginning of the story.

804
00:43:05,560 --> 00:43:08,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, so that was a lot of that was quote.

805
00:43:08,400 --> 00:43:10,880
Speaker 2: Greta watches, unable to shut her eyes as her brothers

806
00:43:10,880 --> 00:43:13,359
Speaker 2: are transformed into monsters, and the end quote the great

807
00:43:13,360 --> 00:43:15,800
Speaker 2: beast ate her little sister more slowly, and it seemed

808
00:43:15,800 --> 00:43:18,200
Speaker 2: to her with more relish and pleasure than it had

809
00:43:18,200 --> 00:43:21,000
Speaker 2: eaten her. But then her little sister had always been

810
00:43:21,080 --> 00:43:25,400
Speaker 2: its favorite. Then the witch disrobes and the lion tongues

811
00:43:25,440 --> 00:43:29,279
Speaker 2: her and they have sex, making Greta slash Susan kind

812
00:43:29,280 --> 00:43:33,120
Speaker 2: of in this dream a watch before finally eating her head.

813
00:43:33,400 --> 00:43:36,000
Speaker 2: Greta wakes up thinking it's true that Susan didn't die.

814
00:43:36,120 --> 00:43:39,880
Speaker 2: This whole thing actually happened. And then here's another quote.

815
00:43:40,080 --> 00:43:42,520
Speaker 2: She imagines the professor waking in the night and listening

816
00:43:42,560 --> 00:43:45,160
Speaker 2: to the noises coming from the old applewood wardrobe in

817
00:43:45,200 --> 00:43:48,640
Speaker 2: the corner, to the rustlings of all these gliding ghosts

818
00:43:48,840 --> 00:43:51,840
Speaker 2: which might be mistaken for the scurries of miser rats,

819
00:43:52,160 --> 00:43:55,080
Speaker 2: and to the patting of enormous velvet paws, and the distant,

820
00:43:55,160 --> 00:43:58,000
Speaker 2: dangerous music of a hunting horn. She knows she is

821
00:43:58,000 --> 00:44:00,400
Speaker 2: being ridiculous, although she will not be surprised when she

822
00:44:00,440 --> 00:44:03,279
Speaker 2: reads of her professor's demise. Death comes in the night,

823
00:44:03,320 --> 00:44:06,080
Speaker 2: she thinks, before she returns to sleep like a lion.

824
00:44:06,600 --> 00:44:09,319
Speaker 2: The white Witch rides naked on the lion's golden back.

825
00:44:09,600 --> 00:44:12,680
Speaker 2: Its muzzle is spotted with fresh scarlet blood. Then the

826
00:44:12,800 --> 00:44:15,400
Speaker 2: vast pinkness of its tongue wipes around its face, and

827
00:44:15,440 --> 00:44:17,319
Speaker 2: once more it is perfectly clean.

828
00:44:18,680 --> 00:44:20,239
Speaker 1: Oof.

829
00:44:20,760 --> 00:44:23,760
Speaker 2: Okay, so there's a lot of things we can discuss

830
00:44:23,760 --> 00:44:26,239
Speaker 2: about this. Obviously, I did want to include this quote

831
00:44:26,280 --> 00:44:28,560
Speaker 2: Gaman said about it. There is so much in the

832
00:44:28,560 --> 00:44:30,360
Speaker 2: books that I love, but each time I found the

833
00:44:30,400 --> 00:44:34,080
Speaker 2: disposal Susan to be intensely problematic and deeply irritating. I

834
00:44:34,120 --> 00:44:35,960
Speaker 2: suppose I wanted to write a story that would be

835
00:44:36,040 --> 00:44:38,719
Speaker 2: equally problematic and just as much of an irritant, if

836
00:44:38,719 --> 00:44:41,160
Speaker 2: from a different direction, and to talk about the remarkable

837
00:44:41,200 --> 00:44:43,919
Speaker 2: power of children's literature. And He's not the only author

838
00:44:43,960 --> 00:44:46,200
Speaker 2: to I've spoken out about this. Philip Pullman said, I

839
00:44:46,320 --> 00:44:49,080
Speaker 2: just don't like the conclusions Lewis comes to after all

840
00:44:49,080 --> 00:44:51,880
Speaker 2: that analysis, the way he shuts children out from heaven

841
00:44:52,000 --> 00:44:54,680
Speaker 2: or whatever it is. On the grounds that one girl's

842
00:44:54,719 --> 00:44:58,960
Speaker 2: interested in boys she's a teenager, it's terrible sex can't

843
00:44:59,000 --> 00:45:04,399
Speaker 2: have that. Yeah, yeah, okay, so yeah, we've already been

844
00:45:04,560 --> 00:45:05,760
Speaker 2: I'm so excited.

845
00:45:05,320 --> 00:45:06,239
Speaker 1: That you know a lot about this.

846
00:45:06,280 --> 00:45:09,120
Speaker 2: Samantha and I got some background and we have kind

847
00:45:09,120 --> 00:45:26,040
Speaker 2: of how to impact us. So as we discussed a

848
00:45:26,080 --> 00:45:30,279
Speaker 2: lot of people took away from this whole thing that

849
00:45:30,400 --> 00:45:34,799
Speaker 2: feminine things like makeup and stockings are frivolous and sinful

850
00:45:35,000 --> 00:45:38,880
Speaker 2: and worth shutting you out of heaven for and Eve

851
00:45:39,120 --> 00:45:42,920
Speaker 2: kind of being the representative kind of.

852
00:45:42,840 --> 00:45:46,200
Speaker 1: The first example of that.

853
00:45:46,920 --> 00:45:50,040
Speaker 2: And because I feel like my favorite character was Lucy,

854
00:45:50,640 --> 00:45:52,560
Speaker 2: but a lot of people said, like she Susan was

855
00:45:52,600 --> 00:45:56,040
Speaker 2: their favorite character, and she was generally well liked, even

856
00:45:56,080 --> 00:45:59,560
Speaker 2: if she wasn't. She wasn't like a hated character, right,

857
00:45:59,640 --> 00:46:04,200
Speaker 2: and have her just suddenly when you know, even she

858
00:46:04,360 --> 00:46:06,960
Speaker 2: was Queen, she was Susan the gentle and she was,

859
00:46:07,000 --> 00:46:09,840
Speaker 2: you know, taking care of children who needed it and

860
00:46:10,040 --> 00:46:12,160
Speaker 2: just very kind. And to kind of have that go

861
00:46:12,280 --> 00:46:17,400
Speaker 2: from that to well, she's gone and that's that's the

862
00:46:17,560 --> 00:46:18,040
Speaker 2: end of that.

863
00:46:18,120 --> 00:46:18,800
Speaker 1: Don't worry.

864
00:46:19,280 --> 00:46:21,480
Speaker 3: You know, it's interesting too because when we see the

865
00:46:21,520 --> 00:46:27,239
Speaker 3: flashbacks where they meet the adults. Yeah, and she is

866
00:46:27,280 --> 00:46:31,520
Speaker 3: being forced into an arranged marriage, right, and she's the

867
00:46:31,520 --> 00:46:34,040
Speaker 3: one that refuses to do so unless you could pick

868
00:46:34,040 --> 00:46:37,640
Speaker 3: her own, which would have been seen as valiant. But yet

869
00:46:37,719 --> 00:46:41,560
Speaker 3: that's not remembered. It's it's quite fascinating how the adult

870
00:46:41,640 --> 00:46:44,799
Speaker 3: version of her in Narnia does not compare to the

871
00:46:44,800 --> 00:46:47,640
Speaker 3: adult version of her in the real world, and why

872
00:46:47,640 --> 00:46:50,600
Speaker 3: would it be so? But I did, I do remember

873
00:46:50,600 --> 00:46:53,360
Speaker 3: that specific scene because you're like, yeah, girl, go ahead,

874
00:46:53,480 --> 00:46:56,000
Speaker 3: tell them you're not gonna marry anyone, you know, like

875
00:46:56,160 --> 00:46:58,240
Speaker 3: you can choose because you are the high queen.

876
00:46:58,719 --> 00:46:59,319
Speaker 1: You do you?

877
00:46:59,800 --> 00:47:01,880
Speaker 3: And then we see that flip, But like, yeah, it

878
00:47:01,920 --> 00:47:04,239
Speaker 3: definitely does feel it needed to be a little bit

879
00:47:04,280 --> 00:47:07,120
Speaker 3: on the nose, whether it's it was Lewis showing his

880
00:47:07,200 --> 00:47:10,560
Speaker 3: disapproval for how women were acting during that time and

881
00:47:10,640 --> 00:47:13,520
Speaker 3: wanted to bring him back to this is religion or not,

882
00:47:13,760 --> 00:47:16,120
Speaker 3: or this is godly and what's not? Or whether he

883
00:47:16,200 --> 00:47:18,520
Speaker 3: just needed a villain and he found a way to

884
00:47:18,760 --> 00:47:20,879
Speaker 3: make one of them a villain and it made sense

885
00:47:20,920 --> 00:47:24,400
Speaker 3: for him, as she is a woman and disposable.

886
00:47:25,080 --> 00:47:28,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, well that's I'm glad you brought that up because

887
00:47:28,480 --> 00:47:33,440
Speaker 2: somebody wrote a really interesting essay about kind of that idea,

888
00:47:33,600 --> 00:47:37,560
Speaker 2: where the author was saying, there's sort of a funny

889
00:47:37,600 --> 00:47:41,640
Speaker 2: thing happening here that game, and comments on directly is

890
00:47:41,680 --> 00:47:47,240
Speaker 2: that we are really interpreting, like as the audience interpreting

891
00:47:47,239 --> 00:47:49,040
Speaker 2: it in a way that perhaps he didn't mean it,

892
00:47:49,080 --> 00:47:51,640
Speaker 2: but it doesn't change the fact we're interpreting it that way,

893
00:47:52,040 --> 00:47:56,760
Speaker 2: and that's how impact it does. But the author was saying, like, basically,

894
00:47:56,840 --> 00:47:59,840
Speaker 2: he got kind of lazy, and so he's got four kids,

895
00:48:00,160 --> 00:48:03,960
Speaker 2: got Edmund who is the betrayer who comes back.

896
00:48:04,360 --> 00:48:06,480
Speaker 1: You've got Lucy who is the natural believer.

897
00:48:07,239 --> 00:48:10,200
Speaker 2: You've got Peter, who is like he's Peter at the

898
00:48:10,239 --> 00:48:14,000
Speaker 2: Saint Peter essentially right. And he needed somebody to be

899
00:48:14,080 --> 00:48:16,680
Speaker 2: the opposite of Edmund, of the person who believed and

900
00:48:16,719 --> 00:48:18,800
Speaker 2: then walked away, and she was the one that was left,

901
00:48:19,120 --> 00:48:20,879
Speaker 2: and so he put it on her.

902
00:48:21,239 --> 00:48:23,560
Speaker 1: But we were all as readers, like, but.

903
00:48:23,640 --> 00:48:28,720
Speaker 2: Wait, it doesn't make sense with all this other stuff

904
00:48:28,719 --> 00:48:31,640
Speaker 2: you said, which which is I thought that was a

905
00:48:31,680 --> 00:48:36,000
Speaker 2: really interesting take on that. And throughout Gaiman's short story,

906
00:48:36,040 --> 00:48:39,000
Speaker 2: there are these signifiers of sex associated with evil. You've

907
00:48:39,040 --> 00:48:41,880
Speaker 2: got the witch's lipstick, you've got handset.

908
00:48:41,920 --> 00:48:44,480
Speaker 1: Professor hasting sexuality and the dream.

909
00:48:44,560 --> 00:48:47,759
Speaker 2: She notices the dead center's penis and wonders what it

910
00:48:47,760 --> 00:48:50,680
Speaker 2: would have been like to kiss him. She remembers past

911
00:48:50,719 --> 00:48:55,200
Speaker 2: sexual experiences with men, making the point that in this framework,

912
00:48:55,719 --> 00:49:00,840
Speaker 2: in this story, Susan is tied to evil for being sexual,

913
00:49:00,960 --> 00:49:05,280
Speaker 2: like this is wrong. There's also, throughout the frivolous desire

914
00:49:05,360 --> 00:49:08,520
Speaker 2: for youth quote, there are things about herself that the

915
00:49:08,520 --> 00:49:12,000
Speaker 2: Professor despises her smell. For example, she smells like her

916
00:49:12,000 --> 00:49:14,960
Speaker 2: grandmother smelled like old women smell, and for this she

917
00:49:15,000 --> 00:49:17,920
Speaker 2: cannot forgive herself. So on waking she baths in scented

918
00:49:18,000 --> 00:49:21,120
Speaker 2: water and naked and towel dried DAPs several drops of

919
00:49:21,160 --> 00:49:23,840
Speaker 2: chnaeled toilet water beneath her arms and on her neck.

920
00:49:24,520 --> 00:49:29,239
Speaker 2: And that's kind of like in there two of I

921
00:49:29,239 --> 00:49:32,080
Speaker 2: guess it feels like a contrast between she wanted to

922
00:49:32,080 --> 00:49:34,080
Speaker 2: be an adult, that kind of narrative, she always wanted

923
00:49:34,080 --> 00:49:36,320
Speaker 2: to be an adult, and now that she is one,

924
00:49:36,920 --> 00:49:40,680
Speaker 2: she's also kind of punishing herself and being societally punished

925
00:49:40,760 --> 00:49:43,080
Speaker 2: for being an older woman. Right.

926
00:49:43,680 --> 00:49:46,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, there's also.

927
00:49:46,000 --> 00:49:47,360
Speaker 2: I just want to put this in here because it

928
00:49:47,360 --> 00:49:49,600
Speaker 2: stuck out to me how she thought she was old

929
00:49:50,000 --> 00:49:52,560
Speaker 2: when she quote lost what was left of her virginity

930
00:49:52,920 --> 00:49:56,200
Speaker 2: at twenty, which I think probably a lot of us

931
00:49:56,239 --> 00:49:59,680
Speaker 2: can identify with thinking that's old, and then when you

932
00:49:59,680 --> 00:50:03,759
Speaker 2: get old, thinking oh no, that was so young. Yeah, yeah,

933
00:50:03,840 --> 00:50:09,280
Speaker 2: but you're already exactly exactly. She also Hastings thinks about

934
00:50:09,280 --> 00:50:13,520
Speaker 2: how young Gretel looks. Another interesting take I read was

935
00:50:13,560 --> 00:50:16,920
Speaker 2: this kind of idea that like God, the patriarchy comes

936
00:50:16,960 --> 00:50:19,960
Speaker 2: for us all that if God, in the context of literature,

937
00:50:20,320 --> 00:50:22,560
Speaker 2: is the creation of man, and in this particular case

938
00:50:22,560 --> 00:50:24,840
Speaker 2: it is if we're saying, like Aslan is the godlike

939
00:50:24,920 --> 00:50:27,719
Speaker 2: figure and C. S. Lewis is a man of his

940
00:50:27,840 --> 00:50:29,920
Speaker 2: time that wrote it, and it stands the reason that

941
00:50:30,000 --> 00:50:33,319
Speaker 2: he is a part of the patriarchy. So this whole

942
00:50:33,360 --> 00:50:37,360
Speaker 2: idea of like the God in this case Aslan punishing

943
00:50:37,440 --> 00:50:43,080
Speaker 2: Susan for being feminine or not fitting into whatever rules

944
00:50:43,080 --> 00:50:47,319
Speaker 2: of this patriarchy, I thought that was an interesting an

945
00:50:47,320 --> 00:50:49,440
Speaker 2: interesting take as well.

946
00:50:49,520 --> 00:50:52,160
Speaker 3: Right, and when we again we talk about Susan's role

947
00:50:52,360 --> 00:50:56,080
Speaker 3: and the individual roles that he has placed on these characters,

948
00:50:56,400 --> 00:50:59,319
Speaker 3: it is very obvious that it is a very male

949
00:50:59,640 --> 00:51:03,960
Speaker 3: led throughout, whether it's Caspian that we're talking about, Ben Barnes'

950
00:51:04,040 --> 00:51:07,480
Speaker 3: character that I mentioned earlier coming to find the father,

951
00:51:08,000 --> 00:51:12,680
Speaker 3: and or talking about Aslan being this lion who comes

952
00:51:12,760 --> 00:51:16,040
Speaker 3: roaring through and Evil being a woman, a witch till

953
00:51:16,040 --> 00:51:18,680
Speaker 3: the Swinton who played the hell out of that character,

954
00:51:19,160 --> 00:51:21,920
Speaker 3: the hell out of me. I'm not gonna lie, but like, really,

955
00:51:22,160 --> 00:51:28,920
Speaker 3: obviously again, women leader, evil, bad, there's definitely notes of

956
00:51:28,960 --> 00:51:32,080
Speaker 3: that that you have. You can't really ignore any of that.

957
00:51:32,120 --> 00:51:34,520
Speaker 3: He does mention to Lucy that she would not be

958
00:51:34,560 --> 00:51:36,280
Speaker 3: a part of the battle, that she would be the healer,

959
00:51:36,960 --> 00:51:39,240
Speaker 3: and though actually Susan is a part of the battle.

960
00:51:39,280 --> 00:51:41,839
Speaker 3: She has the bow, but she's also has a call

961
00:51:41,920 --> 00:51:45,360
Speaker 3: for help, which Peter comes running too. So like there's

962
00:51:45,440 --> 00:51:46,880
Speaker 3: a lot of things for sure.

963
00:51:47,440 --> 00:51:49,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, you know, that's a good point. A lot

964
00:51:49,400 --> 00:51:52,600
Speaker 2: of people brought that up as well, if like, if

965
00:51:52,600 --> 00:51:56,240
Speaker 2: you look at the earlier ones, while she was always

966
00:51:56,280 --> 00:52:00,319
Speaker 2: sort of the practical one, she was also pretty like

967
00:52:00,400 --> 00:52:03,200
Speaker 2: she wrote on Aazon's back, she was there and he

968
00:52:03,280 --> 00:52:07,480
Speaker 2: was resurrected, like she was pretty stalwart. So yeah, just

969
00:52:08,080 --> 00:52:10,440
Speaker 2: not that you can't go from being stalwart to not

970
00:52:10,520 --> 00:52:12,440
Speaker 2: being stal But again it was just one of those

971
00:52:12,440 --> 00:52:15,560
Speaker 2: things where people were like, this doesn't track, it doesn't

972
00:52:15,560 --> 00:52:18,719
Speaker 2: feel right. As we said, there's that whole messaging of

973
00:52:18,920 --> 00:52:20,719
Speaker 2: being adult equals being.

974
00:52:20,640 --> 00:52:26,960
Speaker 1: Bad, especially for women. Then there is trauma.

975
00:52:27,719 --> 00:52:30,839
Speaker 2: So the impetus behind this story that Neil Gaman wrote

976
00:52:30,880 --> 00:52:34,239
Speaker 2: actually was imagining like Susan was a woman who was

977
00:52:34,320 --> 00:52:34,760
Speaker 2: left behind.

978
00:52:34,760 --> 00:52:35,720
Speaker 1: She lost her whole family.

979
00:52:35,760 --> 00:52:37,640
Speaker 2: And there's a scene at the end where it is

980
00:52:37,719 --> 00:52:40,080
Speaker 2: kind of confusing, but yeah, they die in this.

981
00:52:40,400 --> 00:52:43,120
Speaker 1: Train accident and then they're in Narnia and.

982
00:52:43,120 --> 00:52:45,839
Speaker 2: As the reader, we realize they've died, and yeah, they're

983
00:52:45,840 --> 00:52:49,759
Speaker 2: in Narnia and you know, they're happy and embracing and

984
00:52:49,800 --> 00:52:53,080
Speaker 2: all this stuff, and Susan really doesn't not mentioned. So

985
00:52:53,120 --> 00:52:56,040
Speaker 2: she was just left behind and she's going to deal

986
00:52:56,080 --> 00:53:00,080
Speaker 2: with this aftermath and some people really hurt that they're

987
00:53:00,120 --> 00:53:03,400
Speaker 2: wasn't even a thought of her. There wasn't even like,

988
00:53:04,040 --> 00:53:06,759
Speaker 2: oh wow, that was exactly.

989
00:53:07,239 --> 00:53:09,440
Speaker 3: But if we're looking at a Christian perspective of heaven,

990
00:53:09,640 --> 00:53:12,320
Speaker 3: that's the intent is that you will forget that trauma,

991
00:53:12,440 --> 00:53:14,200
Speaker 3: and if she is a trauma, part of that trauma,

992
00:53:14,280 --> 00:53:16,840
Speaker 3: you don't remember her like that is the joy of heaven,

993
00:53:17,600 --> 00:53:20,359
Speaker 3: because honestly, that's one of the things that didn't trek

994
00:53:20,400 --> 00:53:22,520
Speaker 3: with me. I was really hurt by the idea that

995
00:53:22,560 --> 00:53:25,960
Speaker 3: I would forget everyone I go to heaven, and that

996
00:53:26,160 --> 00:53:29,640
Speaker 3: is kind of that narrative that you forget everyone. And again,

997
00:53:29,680 --> 00:53:31,880
Speaker 3: I'm not going to go into the religious back and

998
00:53:31,920 --> 00:53:35,000
Speaker 3: forth about religious religious trauma, which I laughed about earlier

999
00:53:35,040 --> 00:53:38,279
Speaker 3: because I was like, there's a lot there, but that

1000
00:53:38,400 --> 00:53:40,799
Speaker 3: is one of the thoughts, is yeah, and I think

1001
00:53:40,800 --> 00:53:42,560
Speaker 3: this is why I'm so confused, because I'm still too

1002
00:53:42,560 --> 00:53:46,200
Speaker 3: connected to Well, something bad happened, right that translated into

1003
00:53:46,280 --> 00:53:51,600
Speaker 3: something amazing happening, And yeah, that means they forget everything,

1004
00:53:52,040 --> 00:53:54,440
Speaker 3: and so that includes their sister who they had loved,

1005
00:53:55,000 --> 00:53:56,640
Speaker 3: and she is no longer a part of the story

1006
00:53:56,680 --> 00:53:58,680
Speaker 3: and not no longer a part of the narrative.

1007
00:53:58,400 --> 00:54:02,880
Speaker 2: Right yeah, yeah, having heard in this case go to

1008
00:54:02,960 --> 00:54:05,279
Speaker 2: identify the bodies in this short story or like she's

1009
00:54:05,440 --> 00:54:08,319
Speaker 2: going to be dealing with this, right, which is just

1010
00:54:08,480 --> 00:54:11,920
Speaker 2: very very painful. And something else we've already mentioned, and

1011
00:54:12,000 --> 00:54:14,800
Speaker 2: we've mentioned a lot, that these stories are more forgiving

1012
00:54:14,800 --> 00:54:18,360
Speaker 2: to white male characters and their trauma, and people pointed

1013
00:54:18,360 --> 00:54:19,160
Speaker 2: that out a lot of it.

1014
00:54:19,480 --> 00:54:21,360
Speaker 1: They was repenting and redeeming for a.

1015
00:54:21,360 --> 00:54:24,960
Speaker 2: Lot of male characters, but not so much for female characters.

1016
00:54:25,000 --> 00:54:28,040
Speaker 2: Like you either were always a believer or you did

1017
00:54:28,280 --> 00:54:30,839
Speaker 2: one mistake and you're out exact.

1018
00:54:30,560 --> 00:54:32,520
Speaker 3: Well, yeah, and I don't know if I just remember

1019
00:54:32,560 --> 00:54:34,279
Speaker 3: one thing that really bothered me. It had nothing to

1020
00:54:34,280 --> 00:54:38,120
Speaker 3: do with Susan, but when they do return and Lucy

1021
00:54:38,560 --> 00:54:41,560
Speaker 3: was supposed to make them believe, and Aslen got mad

1022
00:54:41,600 --> 00:54:44,560
Speaker 3: at her because she could not convince them and really

1023
00:54:44,680 --> 00:54:48,040
Speaker 3: kind of stayed like called her out again. This is

1024
00:54:48,120 --> 00:54:50,960
Speaker 3: kind of that trauma, religious trauma that whether C. S.

1025
00:54:51,040 --> 00:54:53,360
Speaker 3: Lewis meant to do it, whether it was just something

1026
00:54:53,360 --> 00:54:56,240
Speaker 3: that was like supposed to be storytelling, but it's very true,

1027
00:54:56,400 --> 00:54:59,719
Speaker 3: like this guilt on Christians in general. Why didn't you

1028
00:54:59,760 --> 00:55:02,680
Speaker 3: con Yeah, you're partially damned them the hell because you

1029
00:55:02,680 --> 00:55:04,120
Speaker 3: could not convince them, right.

1030
00:55:04,520 --> 00:55:04,920
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1031
00:55:05,080 --> 00:55:08,600
Speaker 2: I will never forget one time when I was in

1032
00:55:08,680 --> 00:55:12,799
Speaker 2: seventh grade, my algebra teacher told me, it's like I'm

1033
00:55:12,800 --> 00:55:14,919
Speaker 2: watching you walk off a cliff and I just want

1034
00:55:14,960 --> 00:55:15,560
Speaker 2: to save you.

1035
00:55:15,960 --> 00:55:17,560
Speaker 1: And I was like, uh oh.

1036
00:55:17,600 --> 00:55:19,960
Speaker 3: Oh, I had that done at my workplace when I

1037
00:55:20,000 --> 00:55:22,799
Speaker 3: was a DJJ. And she was just like, you know,

1038
00:55:23,040 --> 00:55:25,160
Speaker 3: I love you so much. I don't want this for you.

1039
00:55:25,320 --> 00:55:26,520
Speaker 3: And I looked and I was like, I know what

1040
00:55:26,520 --> 00:55:29,080
Speaker 3: you're doing and it's sweet, and I know you made

1041
00:55:29,080 --> 00:55:29,839
Speaker 3: those love but.

1042
00:55:30,400 --> 00:55:39,279
Speaker 2: Hmm, okay, math teacher, can we go back to now.

1043
00:55:41,120 --> 00:55:42,920
Speaker 1: And then really briefly to close this up?

1044
00:55:42,960 --> 00:55:46,799
Speaker 2: Because I really I find this so interesting. Legitimately I

1045
00:55:46,800 --> 00:55:49,359
Speaker 2: find this interesting. A lot of people did make this

1046
00:55:49,520 --> 00:55:53,480
Speaker 2: argument of kind of a distinction between what C. S.

1047
00:55:53,560 --> 00:55:57,200
Speaker 2: Lewis meant and what he said he meant versus what

1048
00:55:57,280 --> 00:56:01,720
Speaker 2: we interpreted and how much which how much it matters

1049
00:56:01,800 --> 00:56:05,600
Speaker 2: or shouldn't matter. I think another interesting point somebody made

1050
00:56:05,640 --> 00:56:08,719
Speaker 2: is unless you went and like researched this and looked

1051
00:56:08,800 --> 00:56:12,360
Speaker 2: up the letters he wrote specifically about Susan that people

1052
00:56:12,360 --> 00:56:14,040
Speaker 2: wrote in about him and like why did you do this?

1053
00:56:14,320 --> 00:56:16,080
Speaker 1: And he would respond, you wouldn't know.

1054
00:56:16,680 --> 00:56:20,279
Speaker 2: His respond we only have the books, really, unless you

1055
00:56:20,360 --> 00:56:24,160
Speaker 2: go beyond that, and some people did were saying, like,

1056
00:56:25,239 --> 00:56:31,279
Speaker 2: there's just a very interesting line between kind of what

1057
00:56:31,440 --> 00:56:34,799
Speaker 2: Gamon was talking about in this short story of researching

1058
00:56:34,920 --> 00:56:38,000
Speaker 2: children's book and searching for meaning like you and I did,

1059
00:56:38,640 --> 00:56:39,640
Speaker 2: and then.

1060
00:56:41,080 --> 00:56:42,279
Speaker 1: Maybe being hurt by that.

1061
00:56:42,400 --> 00:56:46,200
Speaker 2: Or maybe internalizing these messages that might not have been intended,

1062
00:56:46,239 --> 00:56:50,080
Speaker 2: but that did have the impact, right, especially for kids

1063
00:56:50,120 --> 00:56:53,120
Speaker 2: at the young age. So I just I thought that

1064
00:56:53,160 --> 00:56:57,000
Speaker 2: was really interesting. And Lewis once wrote to someone that

1065
00:56:57,200 --> 00:57:01,760
Speaker 2: he thought this person who was concerned about Susan should

1066
00:57:01,800 --> 00:57:03,720
Speaker 2: go write the story of Susan.

1067
00:57:04,200 --> 00:57:06,719
Speaker 1: Was he being smart, alec I don't think so. He

1068
00:57:06,840 --> 00:57:07,279
Speaker 1: might have been.

1069
00:57:07,440 --> 00:57:10,440
Speaker 2: He said it was like older he liked children's literature

1070
00:57:10,560 --> 00:57:13,319
Speaker 2: that was more of an adult thing. But a lot

1071
00:57:13,360 --> 00:57:15,239
Speaker 2: of people did say this was what was missing. We

1072
00:57:15,320 --> 00:57:17,840
Speaker 2: needed the story of Susan after this, like if you're

1073
00:57:17,880 --> 00:57:22,919
Speaker 2: just gonna write her out, we needed something and that's

1074
00:57:22,960 --> 00:57:24,040
Speaker 2: why we're still.

1075
00:57:23,760 --> 00:57:26,120
Speaker 1: Talking about it today. That's why there's a whole thing

1076
00:57:26,160 --> 00:57:27,600
Speaker 1: called the It is pretty cool.

1077
00:57:27,760 --> 00:57:28,720
Speaker 3: He could do a post.

1078
00:57:29,360 --> 00:57:32,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, well maybe it's time.

1079
00:57:32,120 --> 00:57:35,400
Speaker 3: Well not anymore, not anymore, but you and I could

1080
00:57:35,400 --> 00:57:36,080
Speaker 3: get in on this.

1081
00:57:36,320 --> 00:57:41,960
Speaker 1: Actually we could lawyers and stuff. But this is what

1082
00:57:42,000 --> 00:57:45,400
Speaker 1: that fiction is for, right, But yeah, I have This

1083
00:57:45,560 --> 00:57:47,920
Speaker 1: was a fun conversation. I'm glad we had it. I

1084
00:57:47,920 --> 00:57:50,240
Speaker 1: think we could return to it another day.

1085
00:57:50,400 --> 00:57:53,560
Speaker 3: Yeah, absolutely, I think, especially when it comes to like

1086
00:57:53,600 --> 00:57:57,560
Speaker 3: religious religious fiction and women, the connotations because I read

1087
00:57:57,720 --> 00:58:01,920
Speaker 3: many a religious romance novel, and let me tell you

1088
00:58:03,920 --> 00:58:07,760
Speaker 3: the amount of marital discourse and what women were supposed

1089
00:58:07,760 --> 00:58:12,120
Speaker 3: to do and be. Man, that's dramatizing in itself. I

1090
00:58:12,160 --> 00:58:15,320
Speaker 3: even read one book where she was raped, got left

1091
00:58:15,360 --> 00:58:18,960
Speaker 3: by her pastor husband, but she was accepted by another

1092
00:58:18,960 --> 00:58:20,960
Speaker 3: godly man, so she's okay.

1093
00:58:20,720 --> 00:58:25,320
Speaker 2: Oh wow, yeah, all right, well we'll come out.

1094
00:58:25,480 --> 00:58:27,080
Speaker 3: It was something at the time, and I thought it

1095
00:58:27,160 --> 00:58:29,960
Speaker 3: was something at the time coming back to now, Oh

1096
00:58:30,000 --> 00:58:31,320
Speaker 3: my god, what was I thinking?

1097
00:58:31,960 --> 00:58:34,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, that's that's kind of what we're talking about.

1098
00:58:35,080 --> 00:58:37,480
Speaker 2: Why does somebody say it's like we're searching for meaning

1099
00:58:37,840 --> 00:58:40,880
Speaker 2: or meaning wasn't there, but we made it then. But

1100
00:58:41,120 --> 00:58:43,080
Speaker 2: because of the product of their time and how we're

1101
00:58:43,160 --> 00:58:47,760
Speaker 2: raised and how it was written. Who can blame us?

1102
00:58:49,480 --> 00:58:52,560
Speaker 2: Who can blame us? Okay, well, we've talked.

1103
00:58:52,280 --> 00:58:55,040
Speaker 1: A lot about this. I love it, so listeners.

1104
00:58:55,160 --> 00:58:58,680
Speaker 2: If you have any short stories, are any books to

1105
00:58:58,760 --> 00:59:01,840
Speaker 2: recommend to us for this, or any recommendations at all,

1106
00:59:01,920 --> 00:59:03,840
Speaker 2: we love to get them. You can email us a

1107
00:59:03,840 --> 00:59:05,960
Speaker 2: step media mom Stuff at iHeartMedia dot com. You can

1108
00:59:06,000 --> 00:59:07,960
Speaker 2: find us on Twitter at mom Stuff Podcasts or on

1109
00:59:08,000 --> 00:59:10,320
Speaker 2: Instagram at Stuff I've Never Told You. Thanks as always

1110
00:59:10,320 --> 00:59:14,720
Speaker 2: to our superducer Christina the best. Oh Yes, and thanks

1111
00:59:14,760 --> 00:59:16,840
Speaker 2: to you for listening stuff on ever Total is protection

1112
00:59:16,880 --> 00:59:19,680
Speaker 2: of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts f my iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app,

1113
00:59:19,680 --> 00:59:22,120
Speaker 2: Apple podcasts, or where you listen to your favorite shows.