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Speaker 2: Well.

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Speaker 1: Joining me now is the author of a book. It's

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Speaker 1: called Killers of Row, my investigation into the mysterious death

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Speaker 1: of abortion rights. Book just came out. Well, the investigator

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Speaker 1: in this case is Amy Littlefield, and that's what makes

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Speaker 1: this book I think a This isn't just a policy

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Speaker 1: analysis of legal strategy. This is in some ways a

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Speaker 1: history of the of the anti abortion rights movement in

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Speaker 1: many ways and the fifty year campaign that was waged

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Speaker 1: and arguably a six obviously considering the Dobbs decision an

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Speaker 1: effective campaign, and in many ways is the book is

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Speaker 1: designed almost as a murder mystery. You're trying to figure

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Speaker 1: out who you know, who got rid of these rights,

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Speaker 1: how did it happen, did it happen immediately, or as

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Speaker 1: this book essentially teaches you, it's kind of like bankruptcy.

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Speaker 1: It happens very slowly and then suddenly it happens quickly.

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Speaker 1: And Dobbs was the feeling of quickness. But the fact

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Speaker 1: of the matter is this was literally a fifty year

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Speaker 1: campaign that arguably again the hour after the original road decision.

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Speaker 1: So to discuss this book fall out on abortion rights

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Speaker 1: and it's been well timed. You guys have had a

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Speaker 1: bunch of questions of me of wondering where is the

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Speaker 1: abortion issue this year in the midterm elections. Well, here's

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Speaker 1: a good way to have that conversation. Amy Littlefield, the investigator,

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Speaker 1: joins me. Now, Amy, nice to have you on the podcast.

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Speaker 3: Thank you so much, Chuck, It's great to be here.

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Speaker 1: So I guess that's it. Let's start with this. Why

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Speaker 1: did you choose this framing and what made it so

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Speaker 1: compelling to you? I mean, I'm gonna let the cat

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Speaker 1: out of the bag. I find it. I found it

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Speaker 1: to be a compelling framing because it was a nice

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Speaker 1: way to understand things. But you could have gone in

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Speaker 1: a number of directions. Why this one?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean so the murder mystery framing came about

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Speaker 2: because I had covered abortion rights for many years at

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Speaker 2: The Nation and New York Times Opinion and elsewhere, and

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Speaker 2: I was focused really on the grassroots of the abortion

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Speaker 2: rights movement and their strategy trying to defend abortion rights.

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Speaker 2: But I had also written a lot about near death

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Speaker 2: experiences that had been faced by women who had been

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Speaker 2: denied adequate care for miscarriages, principally in Catholic hospitals that

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Speaker 2: basically run under abortion vans, like the ones we're seeing

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Speaker 2: in states like Texas today. Right, You're not supposed to

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Speaker 2: do an abortion in a Catholic hospital, and.

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Speaker 1: Well, tried just asking for tried, just asking for recommendations

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Speaker 1: about getting an IUD in a Catholic hospital exactly, And

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Speaker 1: in fact, there can be no written record of this.

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Speaker 1: We'll whisper it to you. We'll talk to this person.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I'm not saying I know this from experience,

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Speaker 1: but I'm going to tell you I know this from experience.

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Speaker 2: Yes, a lot of people do, because one in six

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Speaker 2: acute care beds is in a Catholic hospital, right.

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Speaker 1: Care Right, I mean, it's just like some of the

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Speaker 1: best hospital care in the country is Catholic hospitals. But

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Speaker 1: they do operate with with essentially on one issue, very

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Speaker 1: much through a religious lens, not a scientific lens.

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Speaker 3: Right.

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Speaker 2: And the problem is, these are hospitals that look and

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Speaker 2: operate like any other except that there's rules written by

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Speaker 2: Catholic bishops governing how they administer reproductive healthcare, everything from

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Speaker 2: contraception to gender firm and care to of course abortion care.

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Speaker 2: And so I had been interviewing women for years who

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Speaker 2: had wound up in Catholic hospitals when they were losing

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Speaker 2: pregnancies and had almost died as a result. Now, these,

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Speaker 2: of course are the stories that we're seeing coming out

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Speaker 2: of Georgia and Texas. And so all of that is

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Speaker 2: to say that when I learned that Ruth Vader Ginsberg

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Speaker 2: had died and that roeb Wade was almost certainly going

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Speaker 2: to be overturned as a result, I was a new mom.

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Speaker 3: I had a five month old baby. It was COVID times.

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Speaker 2: We're in the middle of a pandemic, and about the

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Speaker 2: only thing I could read was Murder Mystery. Specifically, I

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Speaker 2: get the Christie because I was basically, you know, I

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Speaker 2: was anxious, I was angry, I was sad about what

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Speaker 2: I knew was going to happen, and that was my escapism,

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Speaker 2: was just mainlining.

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Speaker 3: I get the cost.

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Speaker 1: Everybody should go through an Agatha Christie face. It's just

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Speaker 1: a total at side. I did it at one point

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Speaker 1: in time too. You realize that, you know, look, she

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Speaker 1: didn't quite invent it, but she popularized the genre, and

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Speaker 1: you realize when you read her stuff, you're like, wow,

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Speaker 1: so many people ripped her off. Sorry, it's it aside,

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Speaker 1: but it's so so great that you mentioned that little aside,

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Speaker 1: because Agatha Christie's one of those you know it is

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Speaker 1: it is prolift obviously not to go down a rabbit hole.

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Speaker 1: Maybe she didn't write all I'm ready.

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Speaker 3: To go down to get the Christie rabbit hole with

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Speaker 3: you any time, but it.

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Speaker 1: Is everybody should go through an Agatha Christie face. But

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Speaker 1: I digress, go ahead.

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Speaker 3: Completely, and for me, I went through it twice.

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Speaker 2: I went through it in adolescence that I was a

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Speaker 2: teenager and first discovered her, and then I went through

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Speaker 2: it again as a new mom, where you know, I

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Speaker 2: just love disappearing into that world that she has created.

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Speaker 2: And yes, indeed we live in the literary world that

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Speaker 2: she has made.

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Speaker 1: She is true crime and all crime. Right. Well, that's

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Speaker 1: the other part of this is that, I mean, look,

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Speaker 1: I think all of us in journalism, all of us

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Speaker 1: in activism, are always looking for more compelling ways to

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Speaker 1: reach more people. In framing this in some ways as

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Speaker 1: a murder mystery, as a crime novel, if you will, right,

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Speaker 1: except that happens to be back not fiction, is a

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Speaker 1: way to perhaps widen the ambitshre here a little bit.

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Speaker 2: So, I mean, it started out as a way for

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Speaker 2: me and to entice myself to tell a really difficult story.

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Speaker 2: I knew I was going to have to sit with

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Speaker 2: some pretty difficult people. I was going to have to

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Speaker 2: sit and spend hours with anti abortion activists. I was

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Speaker 2: going to have to spend time telling the stories of

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Speaker 2: women who had died as a result of anti abortion policies.

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Speaker 2: You know, the sort of cliff notes version of this

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Speaker 2: history is that it's fifty years of women dying preventable

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Speaker 2: deaths because of policy. It's advanced by men who thought

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Speaker 2: they were speaking to God himself directly, and so it's

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Speaker 2: not easy to sit with that, especially today, right, I mean,

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Speaker 2: people of conscience in this country are having a really

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Speaker 2: tough time. We're watching, you know, bombs being dropped on

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Speaker 2: civilian populations from Gaza to Iran. We're watching you know,

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Speaker 2: constant social media imagery of parents holding their dead children. Okay,

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Speaker 2: it's it's a pretty rough and immigrant neighbors being rounded up.

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Speaker 2: I mean, this is a rough reality we're dealing with.

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Speaker 2: And I knew I was gonna have to tell part

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Speaker 2: of the history of how we got to this point,

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Speaker 2: of how the Republican Party, you know, wound up opportunistically

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Speaker 2: using the issue of abortion to end up where they

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Speaker 2: are today, and so I wanted to sort of entice

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Speaker 2: myself into that story. And as I got into it,

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Speaker 2: I realized, you know, not only is this providing a

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Speaker 2: little bit of comfort and escapism and I hope a

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Speaker 2: little bit of humor and levity too, to this very

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Speaker 2: serious story, But it turned out to be the right

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Speaker 2: frame to tell the story I was trying to tell

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Speaker 2: because I really was interested in the behind the scenes

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Speaker 2: figures in the suspects that you don't notice until you

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Speaker 2: get all the way to the end, and then the

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Speaker 2: detective says, you know she did it. It was the

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Speaker 2: housekeeper who was, you know, always in the background. And

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Speaker 2: I was looking for those people, you know, in the

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Speaker 2: margins of history, right, the people, not the Supreme Court justices.

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Speaker 2: We know that story, right, We know what the Supreme

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Speaker 2: Court did. We know how Donald Trump put the justices there,

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Speaker 2: we know how Leonard Leo picked the justices.

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Speaker 3: We have that story.

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Speaker 2: And I wanted to tell the story of the social

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Speaker 2: movement and of the grassroots activists and the more hidden figures,

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Speaker 2: and discovering them.

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Speaker 3: Was just as exciting as real life as it is

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Speaker 3: in a novel.

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Speaker 1: No, And that's to me what was really important. I

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Speaker 1: don't think people understood because it was you know, one

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Speaker 1: of the harder things to square over the last thirty

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Speaker 1: years in my professional life covering campaigns was you would

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Speaker 1: have fairly moderate Republicans still stick to some pretty strident

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Speaker 1: views on abortion, and it would always be a bit

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Speaker 1: of a head scratcher at first, and then over time

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Speaker 1: you've just come to learn, you know, if you wanted

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Speaker 1: volunteers to show up at your campaign to stuff envelopes,

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Speaker 1: and you didn't have of the essentially the old Phyllis

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Speaker 1: Schlapley crowd. You know, they showed up, they licked envelopes,

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Speaker 1: they went door knocking, I mean, and you didn't get

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Speaker 1: campaign volunteers. State parties wouldn't be able to get volunteers

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Speaker 1: had they ever quote moderated their position on abortion.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I mean the hard reality I think to

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Speaker 2: look at for people who support abortion rights is that

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Speaker 2: the anti abortion movement, one of the ways they won

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Speaker 2: was by erecting an incredibly impressive grassroots infrastructure.

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Speaker 3: And of course they hit the.

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Speaker 2: Ground running on that because the original infrastructure for organizing

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Speaker 2: in the anti abortion movement was the Catholic Church itself, right,

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Speaker 2: And I tell the story of the passage of the

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Speaker 2: High Amendment that ban on federal funding of abortion and

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Speaker 2: how that came about. Basically what tipped the scales on

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Speaker 2: that was the Catholic Church getting involved in rallying pastors

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Speaker 2: in the districts of critical members of Congress. And what

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Speaker 2: could be a better, you know, organizing infrastructure than the

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Speaker 2: Catholic Church, I mean.

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Speaker 1: More importantly back then and people don't realize this. You

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Speaker 1: still when did the Catholic Church stop allowing priests to

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Speaker 1: serve in elective office. It was, it was right around then.

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Speaker 1: But the point was is that it was more common

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Speaker 1: in the fifties and sixties and seventies for a Catholic

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Speaker 1: priest to be political, and it was sort of accepted.

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Speaker 1: And then because you know, it's only in the recent

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Speaker 1: last fifty years arguably that this idea of clergy in general,

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Speaker 1: let alone Catholic priests getting you know, running themselves for office.

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Speaker 1: But you had you know, one of my favorite stories

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Speaker 1: campaign stories to tell is that there was a sitting

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Speaker 1: Catholic priest who ran against Claiborne Pell for the US

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Speaker 1: Senate in Rhode Island in the early sixties. That priest

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Speaker 1: would leave the priesthood and start a political television show

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Speaker 1: called the McLaughlin which you may have heard of back

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Speaker 1: in the day, the originator of political punditry on television.

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Speaker 1: But the point was is that the Catholic Church and

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Speaker 1: they had tentacles in both parties. You had. It was

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Speaker 1: this was a case where this was not yet a

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Speaker 1: divisive correct me if I'm wrong, But in the seventies

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Speaker 1: This was not a red versus blue issue.

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Speaker 2: This was within both parties, right, right, absolutely. I mean

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Speaker 2: Mary Zigeler talks about how from nineteen seventy three to

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Speaker 2: nineteen eighty four, the majority of anti abortion policies that

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Speaker 2: were introduced in Congress were brought forward by Democrats. Right

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Speaker 2: in the early days, you had Catholic Democrats, you know,

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Speaker 2: who were anti abortion. You had pro choice Republicans, some

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Speaker 2: of whom I talked to in my book, like Senator

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Speaker 2: Bob Packwood, who's in his nineties now, you know, complicated guy,

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Speaker 2: but he was a pro choice champion through and through

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Speaker 2: so and he was a Republican.

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Speaker 1: Oh, there's a certain member of the Bush family that

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Speaker 1: started out as a pro choice Republican politician and then

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Speaker 1: literally flipped to get on a certain Republican ticket in

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Speaker 1: nineteen eighty Arguably.

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Speaker 2: That's right, the man they used to call Rubbers who

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Speaker 2: was so fond of family planning that he earned that

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Speaker 2: Moniker And yeah. So, so this was not guaranteed to

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Speaker 2: be a partisan issue when it started out by any means.

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Speaker 1: So when would you say that switch flipped? You know,

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Speaker 1: so you talk about the High Demendum in seventy six,

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Speaker 1: this is massive majorities right at that point in time

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Speaker 1: for Democrats. So this was This is why, you know,

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Speaker 1: there's a lot of people who I think think politics

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Speaker 1: began in two thousand and eight, and you know sometimes

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Speaker 1: that they forget that.

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Speaker 3: You know, you may have some listeners who were born

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Speaker 3: that night.

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Speaker 1: I say this with love, but this is why they are.

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Speaker 1: Sometimes our history sections are the most popular things we

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Speaker 1: do because because you know, you have to understand these things.

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Speaker 1: So seventy six, this is after the This is basically

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Speaker 1: the first Congress after the Watergate Congress, the Watergate elections,

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Speaker 1: which is just a massive democratic majorities. This was not.

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Speaker 1: And so the High Amendment I assume passed with more

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Speaker 1: Democrats and Republics.

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Speaker 2: Right, This was a Democratic Congress that passed this policy,

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Speaker 2: and it took Democrats. You know, Democrats supported it for years.

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Speaker 2: Joe Biden supported it for many years until you know,

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Speaker 2: a renegade faction of the abortion rights movement made it

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Speaker 2: untenable for him to do.

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Speaker 1: So, you know, he supported it through both terms as

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Speaker 1: vice president. He's stuck by this. It wasn't until he

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Speaker 1: wanted to be president himself.

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Speaker 3: Exactly exactly.

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Speaker 2: And so you know the part of The history I

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Speaker 2: tell in the book is the history of sort of

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Speaker 2: democratic complicity in the slow and steady erosion of abortion rights.

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Speaker 3: And the High Amendment is really you know where it starts.

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Speaker 2: That's the policy that restricts medicaid funding of abortion. To

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Speaker 2: this day, most states, unless they cover abortion with their

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Speaker 2: own state funds, medicaid patients can knot get their abortions covered.

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Speaker 2: They have to raise hundreds or even thousands of dollars

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Speaker 2: out of pocket, which has put enormous pressure on the

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Speaker 2: abortion rights movement as well to come up with the

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Speaker 2: millions of dollars that it takes to try to fill

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Speaker 2: that gap.

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Speaker 3: Never been enough, and so you know that policy.

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Speaker 2: I tell the story of some of the behind the scenes,

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Speaker 2: you know, Catholic Republicans that were involved in that history.

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Speaker 2: And of course the Catholic Church played an important role,

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Speaker 2: but so did Democrats, you know, Democrats like Republican I'm sorry,

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Speaker 2: Representative Dan Flood, it was from Pennsylvania who oversaw the

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Speaker 2: subcommittee in charge of the Appropriations bill that the High

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Speaker 2: Amendment was sort of being tacked onto, and he was

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Speaker 2: very against the High Amendment. Saw it as an attack

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Speaker 2: on poor people. He railed against it, and he was

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Speaker 2: this Shakespearean theater actor, very dramatic.

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Speaker 3: So this is a you know, attack on poor people

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Speaker 3: as plain as the nose on your face.

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Speaker 2: Well then what happened. A Catholic church got involved, sent

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Speaker 2: him thousands of letters. You know, he came from a

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Speaker 2: heavily Catholic district, and he flipped. And that's part of

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Speaker 2: the story of how the High Amendment got through a

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Speaker 2: Democratic majority Congress. I mean another thing, and you know,

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Speaker 2: you know this history even better than I do. But

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Speaker 2: in nineteen seventy six, right, this is the even nineteen

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Speaker 2: seventy sixth election, Evangelicals are becoming a big political force

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Speaker 2: for the first time. And I think there were plenty

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Speaker 2: of Democrats in Congress who maybe thought Roe v.

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Speaker 3: Wade was a good thing. Most Americans did at that point.

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Speaker 3: And yet they thought public funding of abortion poor people,

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Speaker 3: women of color, Maybe we can, you know.

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Speaker 2: We better not take a stand on that one this

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Speaker 2: close to an election where there's this new you know, political.

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Speaker 3: Force, and so anti abortion.

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Speaker 2: You know, politics have always been a minority point of view,

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Speaker 2: and this is one of many stops along the way

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Speaker 2: where we can see how that minority point of view

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Speaker 2: asserted itself on a population that disagreed with it.

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Speaker 1: Look, you brought up the sort of the evangelical movement

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Speaker 1: which began, you know, sort of politically first flexed its

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Speaker 1: muzzle with the election of the first ever evangelical Christian

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Speaker 1: to be president, Jimmy Carter. And immediately within four years

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Speaker 1: there's the evangelical leaders, people like Jerry Fowwell standing next

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Speaker 1: to Ronald Reagan, who at one point was a supporter

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Speaker 1: of abortion rights as governor of California. How did that

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Speaker 1: moment come up out?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, And I think the Reagan eras where we really

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Speaker 2: start to see the partisan lines. They're still not totally fixed,

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Speaker 2: you know. I think that's an even more recent development,

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Speaker 2: but I think that's where we start to see the

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Speaker 2: partisan lines start to solidify a bit more. When you

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Speaker 2: have Reagan campaigning on a strong anti abortion position, even

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Speaker 2: though he himself, of course had signed an abortion liberalization

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Speaker 2: law when he was governor of California, later said he

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Speaker 2: regredit it. You know, he gets dubbed in the first

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Speaker 2: pro life president. Of course, he makes out a major issue,

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Speaker 2: and you see right to life groups really supporting him.

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Speaker 2: I mean, one of the interesting pieces of raw material

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Speaker 2: I was able to examine for this book where some

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Speaker 2: communicates between right to life groups and the Reagan campaign

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Speaker 2: in nineteen eighty four, where basically, the rights to life

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Speaker 2: groups were saying, listen, we do not have a majority

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Speaker 2: point of view. Right most people disagree with what we

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Speaker 2: want to do, and yet we do have a majority

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Speaker 2: of people who will base their or we do have

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Speaker 2: a strong contingent of people who will base their votes

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Speaker 2: on a single issue of abortion. And so they were

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Speaker 2: basically saying to the Reagan campaign, Hey, we have this huge,

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Speaker 2: super impressive grassroots infrastructure. Use it, Use our volunteers, Use

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Speaker 2: the you know housewives out there who you know, to

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Speaker 2: whom you know the issue of abortion is an existential threat.

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Speaker 2: Use the you know folks out there or going to

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Speaker 2: Catholic church on the weekends and want to you know,

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Speaker 2: stamp envelopes for the Reagan campaign during the week I mean,

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Speaker 2: this is this is sort of how they built this

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Speaker 2: alliance between the Republican Party and anti abortion diehards.

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Speaker 1: it's interesting, you could do a very similar There was

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Speaker 1: a similar sort of evolution to the gun issue that

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Speaker 1: started as a you know, there wasn't a arguably there

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Speaker 1: was a pro gun majority in both parties for a

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Speaker 1: period of time. But guns and abortion are both single

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Speaker 1: issue type of voters, right the voters that say it's

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Speaker 1: their number one issue, it's the there is no number

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Speaker 1: two issue. And it's an interesting phenomenon. It's sort of

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Speaker 1: like when people try to ask yourself, you try to

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Speaker 1: you know, I hear I get this question all the time.

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Speaker 1: Why what is something that has seventy percent support? I

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Speaker 1: guess abortion rights. It's sitting somewhere between fifty five and

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Speaker 1: sixty five depending on the stage go into. But it's

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Speaker 1: you know, there might be two states in the Union

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Speaker 1: where's upside down maybe, but we're talking like Idaho and Wyoming.

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Speaker 1: If any and I'm we're talking narrow, but it is

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Speaker 1: this issue of being a single issue voter. And how

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Speaker 1: if you are, if you really want, if you have

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Speaker 1: a minority position and you want outside political power, get

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Speaker 1: as many single issue allies as you can on this.

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Speaker 1: And when you think about the power of the Republican

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Speaker 1: Party was able to extract out of just guns and

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Speaker 1: abortion basically in the nineties. By that's really I know,

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Speaker 1: I'm fast forwarding here being single issue I don't it

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Speaker 1: is it is. It is fascinating whenever we pull these

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Speaker 1: questions we used to pull wed ask is there an

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Speaker 1: issue that's so important to you that you would vote

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Speaker 1: against all your other interests just for this issue? And

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Speaker 1: you look, and it's always been abortion one guns too.

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Speaker 1: You know where those things come down.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, absolutely absolutely.

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Speaker 2: And we've seen what happen when what happens when people

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Speaker 2: vote on the single issue of abortion, specifically, Right with

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Speaker 2: all of these ballot initiatives that have come about from

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Speaker 2: you know, Missouri to Vermont, you know, across the political spectrum,

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Speaker 2: in the wake of the Dobb's decision, a record number

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Speaker 2: of states are putting the issue of abortion directly on the.

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Speaker 3: Ballot and more often than not, abortion rights.

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Speaker 2: Wins in almost any state you go to right because

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Speaker 2: when people have the chance to vote directly on this issue,

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Speaker 2: they vote in favor of it. I think when you're

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Speaker 2: talking about political parties and you know whether people are

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Speaker 2: going to vote for a candidate based on it, of

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Speaker 2: course it gets more complicated. But the anti abortion movement

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Speaker 2: is always known that that's one of its straints, that

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Speaker 2: one of the ways that they win with an unpopular

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Speaker 2: point of view is that there are people who are

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Speaker 2: willing to compromise the rest of their you know, values,

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Speaker 2: in order to vote for a politician who stands against abortion.

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Speaker 1: In fact, there's not a lot there were. There weren't

436
00:22:49,880 --> 00:22:53,240
Speaker 1: that many attempts by the anti abortion rights movement to

437
00:22:53,440 --> 00:22:57,960
Speaker 1: go to referendums were they're compared comparatively.

438
00:22:58,040 --> 00:22:59,320
Speaker 3: By the abortion rights movement.

439
00:22:59,359 --> 00:23:02,320
Speaker 1: You're saying type vers rights movement. Well, I'm trying to

440
00:23:02,359 --> 00:23:06,800
Speaker 1: think there's a person I remember a personhood amendment? Yeah, empt, Yeah,

441
00:23:06,840 --> 00:23:09,040
Speaker 1: I mean I think that I don't I believe that failed.

442
00:23:09,240 --> 00:23:11,760
Speaker 3: I think it was lot in South Dakota or yeah.

443
00:23:11,800 --> 00:23:14,720
Speaker 2: I mean when this personhood fails, when it because people realize,

444
00:23:14,720 --> 00:23:16,359
Speaker 2: oh my god, wait a minute, if you're talking about

445
00:23:16,400 --> 00:23:19,399
Speaker 2: life beginning at conception, you're going to come for my

446
00:23:19,440 --> 00:23:22,919
Speaker 2: IVF are you going to try to come for my iud.

447
00:23:23,359 --> 00:23:26,879
Speaker 1: So so when you go. So it is interesting that

448
00:23:26,880 --> 00:23:28,960
Speaker 1: that if they thought, I mean, that's sort of in

449
00:23:29,000 --> 00:23:31,840
Speaker 1: some ways, the lack of action is proof that they

450
00:23:31,920 --> 00:23:33,399
Speaker 1: knew they didn't have majority support.

451
00:23:34,560 --> 00:23:37,560
Speaker 2: Oh. I think they've always known they don't have majority support.

452
00:23:37,760 --> 00:23:40,120
Speaker 2: I think they've always known that. You know, they have

453
00:23:40,160 --> 00:23:42,920
Speaker 2: to find That's why, you know, defenders of abortion rights

454
00:23:42,960 --> 00:23:45,480
Speaker 2: will say democracy and abortion rights go hand in hand.

455
00:23:45,920 --> 00:23:48,280
Speaker 2: The more voting rights you have, the better abortion does,

456
00:23:48,400 --> 00:23:50,520
Speaker 2: the more you know. And that's why if you look

457
00:23:50,520 --> 00:23:53,879
Speaker 2: at authoritarian societies, you know, around the world, not just

458
00:23:54,000 --> 00:23:55,560
Speaker 2: here at home, you're going to see that, you know,

459
00:23:55,680 --> 00:23:58,199
Speaker 2: reproductive rights are off in the first one's constrained. I mean,

460
00:23:58,240 --> 00:24:02,520
Speaker 2: these issues can't be separated. When you have one, youre

461
00:24:02,600 --> 00:24:05,560
Speaker 2: women who will have an abortion in her lifetime. You know, yeah,

462
00:24:06,119 --> 00:24:08,400
Speaker 2: that's going to be a pretty popular issue.

463
00:24:08,560 --> 00:24:10,960
Speaker 1: There's another way to look at your book about you know,

464
00:24:11,280 --> 00:24:16,480
Speaker 1: you're chronicling a brilliant campaign strategy that the anti abortion

465
00:24:16,760 --> 00:24:25,320
Speaker 1: rights movement ran versus a the abortion rights activists who

466
00:24:26,480 --> 00:24:29,439
Speaker 1: couldn't believe they were probably spent so much time, couldn't

467
00:24:29,440 --> 00:24:30,960
Speaker 1: believe they were losing. You know, It's sort of like

468
00:24:31,040 --> 00:24:33,560
Speaker 1: there's a there's an old SNL skit, you know, where

469
00:24:33,600 --> 00:24:35,760
Speaker 1: the guy playing John Lovett plays Michael deccause. I can't

470
00:24:35,760 --> 00:24:39,639
Speaker 1: believe I'm losing to this guy, and you're just And

471
00:24:39,680 --> 00:24:42,119
Speaker 1: I've always sensed, I mean, there's sort of two things

472
00:24:42,160 --> 00:24:45,520
Speaker 1: now in hindsight that I want that I've always been

473
00:24:45,520 --> 00:24:51,280
Speaker 1: curious about what the abortion rights movement. One is, was

474
00:24:51,320 --> 00:24:55,119
Speaker 1: it a was it a failed defense strategy from the beginning?

475
00:24:55,200 --> 00:24:58,440
Speaker 1: Was choice the worst word they could have picked? And

476
00:24:58,760 --> 00:25:02,400
Speaker 1: how did they you know, in what why didn't they

477
00:25:02,520 --> 00:25:10,120
Speaker 1: make freedom and right the centerpiece rather or even healthcare

478
00:25:10,160 --> 00:25:13,280
Speaker 1: the centerpiece. I feel like in the last four years

479
00:25:14,200 --> 00:25:17,560
Speaker 1: those advocating abortion rights have gotten smarter about this, but

480
00:25:17,680 --> 00:25:20,160
Speaker 1: in the previous forty six not so much.

481
00:25:21,640 --> 00:25:24,760
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, I think the problem with choice is.

482
00:25:24,680 --> 00:25:27,480
Speaker 2: That, even with rob WA being a lot of the land,

483
00:25:27,520 --> 00:25:30,520
Speaker 2: it was always a false promise. Right, It's not do

484
00:25:30,600 --> 00:25:32,879
Speaker 2: people have a meaningful choice when one of the top

485
00:25:32,920 --> 00:25:36,080
Speaker 2: issues that people get an abortion is financial right. And

486
00:25:36,119 --> 00:25:37,760
Speaker 2: I've worked in clinics, so I can tell you, most

487
00:25:37,760 --> 00:25:39,880
Speaker 2: people are saying, I can't afford this baby right now,

488
00:25:40,400 --> 00:25:40,920
Speaker 2: and so is.

489
00:25:40,880 --> 00:25:43,119
Speaker 1: That it's rare to meet somebody who got an abortion

490
00:25:43,160 --> 00:25:44,719
Speaker 1: who's like, I'm so glad I got an abortion.

491
00:25:45,680 --> 00:25:48,080
Speaker 3: They're out there, you know, they're out there. That's not

492
00:25:48,200 --> 00:25:48,800
Speaker 3: you know, there.

493
00:25:48,640 --> 00:25:51,879
Speaker 1: Are there's a lot of people, a lot of people

494
00:25:51,880 --> 00:25:55,600
Speaker 1: are getting it's it is. There are other reasons they

495
00:25:55,600 --> 00:25:57,640
Speaker 1: feel they need to do it, and so they don't

496
00:25:57,760 --> 00:26:00,440
Speaker 1: like being told it's a choice exactly.

497
00:26:00,920 --> 00:26:02,640
Speaker 3: It was always a false promise. I mean.

498
00:26:03,000 --> 00:26:05,159
Speaker 2: And you know, when you have the right to abortion

499
00:26:05,240 --> 00:26:07,560
Speaker 2: coming about at the same time that you start to see,

500
00:26:07,960 --> 00:26:10,639
Speaker 2: you know, the eviseration of the social safety net in

501
00:26:10,680 --> 00:26:14,119
Speaker 2: this country, the backlash against the War on poverty, the

502
00:26:14,160 --> 00:26:17,919
Speaker 2: backlash against the civil rights movement, the backlash against feminism,

503
00:26:18,200 --> 00:26:20,240
Speaker 2: the fact that we don't have many of the like

504
00:26:20,520 --> 00:26:24,120
Speaker 2: basic policies like you know, childcare and paid family leave

505
00:26:24,480 --> 00:26:26,879
Speaker 2: that it would take to raise a family. Then choice

506
00:26:27,040 --> 00:26:31,439
Speaker 2: is not really it doesn't really operate the way that

507
00:26:31,520 --> 00:26:33,679
Speaker 2: it promises to do. And I think the other issue

508
00:26:33,680 --> 00:26:36,800
Speaker 2: with it is that the choice framework could be weaponized

509
00:26:37,080 --> 00:26:39,720
Speaker 2: in order to promote anti abortion policies. It could be

510
00:26:39,760 --> 00:26:42,840
Speaker 2: weaponized to say we shouldn't have tax payer funding of abortion,

511
00:26:43,840 --> 00:26:46,560
Speaker 2: We shouldn't we should have parental consent laws. Right, These

512
00:26:46,560 --> 00:26:49,240
Speaker 2: are two of the kind of most popular anti abortion

513
00:26:49,400 --> 00:26:53,960
Speaker 2: policies that even Democrats often supported. Why because you know,

514
00:26:54,000 --> 00:26:56,320
Speaker 2: if the government's supposed to stay out of abortion, and

515
00:26:56,359 --> 00:26:59,160
Speaker 2: it's supposed to be a personal choice, you know, then

516
00:26:59,400 --> 00:27:02,080
Speaker 2: why would they funded then? You know, why wouldn't we

517
00:27:02,119 --> 00:27:05,439
Speaker 2: want parents involved in this choice that belongs to the family.

518
00:27:05,480 --> 00:27:07,080
Speaker 2: And so I think there was a way that it

519
00:27:07,160 --> 00:27:13,920
Speaker 2: could be used to justify, you know, conservative policies. And

520
00:27:14,240 --> 00:27:17,960
Speaker 2: it's a less encompassing framework than freedom. It's less encompassing

521
00:27:18,000 --> 00:27:20,879
Speaker 2: than reproductive justice, which was the framework developed by black

522
00:27:20,880 --> 00:27:23,600
Speaker 2: women to say we shouldn't just have the right to abortion,

523
00:27:23,680 --> 00:27:25,360
Speaker 2: we should have the right to parent and to raise

524
00:27:25,400 --> 00:27:28,960
Speaker 2: those children in safe communities. And especially after the Reagan era,

525
00:27:29,080 --> 00:27:31,000
Speaker 2: that is not what the United States has been able

526
00:27:31,040 --> 00:27:32,080
Speaker 2: to provide for families.

527
00:27:32,680 --> 00:27:34,640
Speaker 1: You spend a little bit of time on the first

528
00:27:34,800 --> 00:27:37,959
Speaker 1: deaths sort of after the High Amendment, and you were

529
00:27:38,000 --> 00:27:40,800
Speaker 1: talking about how it's a woman who name's Rosie Himanniz.

530
00:27:42,000 --> 00:27:47,000
Speaker 1: Didn't I think there was some thought she'd become a Look,

531
00:27:47,040 --> 00:27:50,320
Speaker 1: this is what happens when when you make this more difficult,

532
00:27:50,359 --> 00:27:54,520
Speaker 1: when you add more hurdles on something that the Supreme

533
00:27:54,560 --> 00:27:59,760
Speaker 1: Court said was a right, okay, and suddenly in order,

534
00:28:00,160 --> 00:28:02,359
Speaker 1: you know, our rights were never supposed to come with

535
00:28:02,400 --> 00:28:05,680
Speaker 1: a fee, right way, I think we you know, we

536
00:28:06,320 --> 00:28:08,920
Speaker 1: decided we weren't going to allow poll taxes. Right. I'm

537
00:28:08,920 --> 00:28:11,280
Speaker 1: not trying to, but you know, essentially the idea was,

538
00:28:11,280 --> 00:28:14,560
Speaker 1: your rights aren't supposed to cost you money. And in

539
00:28:14,600 --> 00:28:17,000
Speaker 1: this case, here's a death because somebody couldn't afford an

540
00:28:17,040 --> 00:28:22,520
Speaker 1: abortion because they were in medicaid. It didn't galvanize. And

541
00:28:22,760 --> 00:28:24,000
Speaker 1: why didn't the galvanize?

542
00:28:24,520 --> 00:28:26,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, that is the question I asked in the book,

543
00:28:26,520 --> 00:28:29,400
Speaker 2: and I cover the first death of Rosi Jumenez, which

544
00:28:29,440 --> 00:28:32,199
Speaker 2: was the horrible, you know, eight day long saga of

545
00:28:32,280 --> 00:28:35,320
Speaker 2: her getting an infection and dying as a result of

546
00:28:35,320 --> 00:28:39,120
Speaker 2: the infection while doctors were badgering her to talk about

547
00:28:39,160 --> 00:28:42,280
Speaker 2: her abortion and she was pleading to be left alone

548
00:28:42,320 --> 00:28:44,800
Speaker 2: to die in peace. I talk about that first death,

549
00:28:45,920 --> 00:28:49,200
Speaker 2: which was horrible and completely preventable and resulted from this

550
00:28:49,400 --> 00:28:52,440
Speaker 2: policy called the High Amendment. And then I look at

551
00:28:52,440 --> 00:28:55,440
Speaker 2: the second death, which was how was the pro choice

552
00:28:55,560 --> 00:28:59,360
Speaker 2: movement implicated. How are democrats implicated in the fact that

553
00:28:59,400 --> 00:29:03,840
Speaker 2: this policy that killed this woman became accepted, became popular,

554
00:29:04,040 --> 00:29:07,360
Speaker 2: became seen as a middle ground on the abortion issue.

555
00:29:07,480 --> 00:29:11,720
Speaker 1: As you're referring to. I think her name's Becky Bell, right,

556
00:29:12,000 --> 00:29:14,960
Speaker 1: and she was under eighteen, so right right? Did to

557
00:29:15,000 --> 00:29:15,640
Speaker 1: tell her parents?

558
00:29:16,120 --> 00:29:18,720
Speaker 2: Becky Bell is a seventeen year old in Indiana. Because

559
00:29:18,760 --> 00:29:21,040
Speaker 2: of a law passed in the nineteen eighties in that state,

560
00:29:21,120 --> 00:29:23,240
Speaker 2: she had to tell her parents and get consent if

561
00:29:23,240 --> 00:29:25,840
Speaker 2: she wanted an abortion. She told a friend, I love

562
00:29:25,920 --> 00:29:28,360
Speaker 2: them too much. I can't tell my parents. I'll disappoint them,

563
00:29:28,920 --> 00:29:31,640
Speaker 2: And so instead she got an unsafe abortion. Her parents

564
00:29:32,160 --> 00:29:35,080
Speaker 2: take her to the hospital. She dies of pneumonia. They

565
00:29:35,120 --> 00:29:36,840
Speaker 2: have no idea what's happened until they get a call

566
00:29:36,880 --> 00:29:39,560
Speaker 2: from the coroner. It says, your daughter died because of

567
00:29:39,600 --> 00:29:42,000
Speaker 2: an abortion. That's what caused the pneumonia that killed her.

568
00:29:42,560 --> 00:29:46,360
Speaker 2: And what's remarkable about them is that they could have

569
00:29:47,120 --> 00:29:49,240
Speaker 2: had the secret that their daughter had died to keep,

570
00:29:49,280 --> 00:29:51,400
Speaker 2: and instead they decided to share it with the world

571
00:29:51,600 --> 00:29:54,320
Speaker 2: and to say, listen, these policies are popular.

572
00:29:54,400 --> 00:29:57,320
Speaker 3: We would have supported them. We like the idea. You know,

573
00:29:57,680 --> 00:29:58,080
Speaker 3: lots of.

574
00:29:58,040 --> 00:30:00,200
Speaker 2: Liberals like the idea, my daughter should have to come

575
00:30:00,200 --> 00:30:02,080
Speaker 2: to me if she needs an abortion. But they said,

576
00:30:02,600 --> 00:30:04,640
Speaker 2: we wish she had had an abortion, we had never known,

577
00:30:04,640 --> 00:30:07,200
Speaker 2: because then she would have been here today. And when

578
00:30:07,280 --> 00:30:10,160
Speaker 2: Dobbs happened, when the Supreme Court overturned ro v. Wade,

579
00:30:10,240 --> 00:30:13,080
Speaker 2: all but fourteen states in this country were enforcing some

580
00:30:13,200 --> 00:30:16,520
Speaker 2: version of a parental involvement law. And so that's another

581
00:30:16,600 --> 00:30:20,479
Speaker 2: example of how, you know, this incremental erosion of abortion

582
00:30:20,600 --> 00:30:25,000
Speaker 2: rights that killed real people, you know, that killed women.

583
00:30:26,240 --> 00:30:29,160
Speaker 2: How that happened and was supported by people across the

584
00:30:29,200 --> 00:30:30,280
Speaker 2: political spectrum.

585
00:30:30,920 --> 00:30:33,320
Speaker 1: So when you talk to folks on the abortion rights

586
00:30:33,360 --> 00:30:37,560
Speaker 1: side of things as you were investigating this mystery, what

587
00:30:37,680 --> 00:30:41,920
Speaker 1: ownership do they take in? I mean, because you know,

588
00:30:41,960 --> 00:30:44,920
Speaker 1: one of the my conservative legal friends will say, well,

589
00:30:44,960 --> 00:30:47,360
Speaker 1: the initial decision was a bad decision. And in fact,

590
00:30:47,920 --> 00:30:51,200
Speaker 1: I don't understand why equal protection wasn't used as the

591
00:30:51,440 --> 00:30:55,840
Speaker 1: argument right that they went searching for this right to privacy. Now,

592
00:30:56,120 --> 00:30:57,600
Speaker 1: is it the legal argument that did it? Or was

593
00:30:57,640 --> 00:31:00,200
Speaker 1: it the justicees desperate to not do a five or

594
00:31:00,680 --> 00:31:02,920
Speaker 1: right They didn't want a five to four in row,

595
00:31:03,080 --> 00:31:06,280
Speaker 1: so they came up with a convoluted way in order

596
00:31:06,320 --> 00:31:08,040
Speaker 1: to believe it was a seven to two. If I'm

597
00:31:08,080 --> 00:31:14,680
Speaker 1: not mistaken, it was sixth three, which one the original row? Right, Yeah, yeah,

598
00:31:14,720 --> 00:31:16,320
Speaker 1: it was it six three or seven two. But I

599
00:31:16,360 --> 00:31:20,720
Speaker 1: knew they didn't. They were fearful of a five to four, right, right,

600
00:31:20,200 --> 00:31:24,880
Speaker 1: and they come up with this, this this version. But

601
00:31:25,800 --> 00:31:30,000
Speaker 1: you know that's my conservative legal friends will say the

602
00:31:30,360 --> 00:31:34,640
Speaker 1: reason Roe fell is it was poorly it was, it

603
00:31:34,680 --> 00:31:39,000
Speaker 1: was poorly decided. Did you come across those on the

604
00:31:39,000 --> 00:31:41,840
Speaker 1: abortion right sides that look at it now and say, yeah,

605
00:31:41,960 --> 00:31:45,120
Speaker 1: maybe that wasn't that that maybe that was the original sin?

606
00:31:45,920 --> 00:31:47,400
Speaker 3: I mean, I think you could.

607
00:31:47,480 --> 00:31:50,400
Speaker 2: I think people will definitely find flaws in the legal

608
00:31:50,480 --> 00:31:52,880
Speaker 2: rationale of Roe v.

609
00:31:53,040 --> 00:31:54,960
Speaker 3: Wade. But I think we both know that that's not

610
00:31:55,000 --> 00:31:55,840
Speaker 3: why it fell.

611
00:31:56,360 --> 00:31:56,600
Speaker 1: Right.

612
00:31:56,720 --> 00:32:01,480
Speaker 2: They felt because abortion, and it fell because the anti

613
00:32:01,560 --> 00:32:06,600
Speaker 2: abortion movement built very powerful connections and was able to

614
00:32:06,720 --> 00:32:10,560
Speaker 2: orchestrate this, you know, political coup, despite having most of

615
00:32:10,600 --> 00:32:15,000
Speaker 2: society against it. So I don't think it was like, oh,

616
00:32:15,080 --> 00:32:17,560
Speaker 2: there were flaws with the legal rationale and therefore, I mean,

617
00:32:17,600 --> 00:32:19,960
Speaker 2: there's plenty of flawed decisions out there that are still

618
00:32:20,040 --> 00:32:21,400
Speaker 2: the law of the land.

619
00:32:23,680 --> 00:32:26,400
Speaker 1: You know, Another culprit you don't talk about that much.

620
00:32:26,560 --> 00:32:28,560
Speaker 1: You talk about it with High with the High Amendment.

621
00:32:29,120 --> 00:32:36,959
Speaker 1: But you know, I've been I've been growing more fond

622
00:32:37,000 --> 00:32:40,840
Speaker 1: of being of realizing that ninety percent of our political

623
00:32:40,880 --> 00:32:44,800
Speaker 1: problems over the last sixty years in this country stem

624
00:32:44,840 --> 00:32:49,560
Speaker 1: from inaction by Congress. And because of Congress's inability to

625
00:32:49,600 --> 00:32:53,360
Speaker 1: deal with problems, many activists started going to the courts.

626
00:32:53,640 --> 00:32:55,640
Speaker 1: You know, you could argue the courts never should have

627
00:32:55,680 --> 00:32:57,680
Speaker 1: been involved with this. If we had, you know, any

628
00:32:57,720 --> 00:33:00,120
Speaker 1: other system, you would have just had this past just

629
00:33:00,200 --> 00:33:06,840
Speaker 1: slatively what you know, how has that never really been

630
00:33:06,920 --> 00:33:09,000
Speaker 1: pursued seriously.

631
00:33:10,040 --> 00:33:12,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a it's a good question. I mean, there

632
00:33:12,360 --> 00:33:15,640
Speaker 2: have been attempts. And by the way, Chuck, you were right.

633
00:33:15,720 --> 00:33:19,960
Speaker 2: The original Ruby Wade was seven to two two and

634
00:33:20,360 --> 00:33:23,000
Speaker 2: so I mean the question of Congress, and it's so true,

635
00:33:23,040 --> 00:33:25,920
Speaker 2: like the abortion rights struggle has always been in the states, right,

636
00:33:25,960 --> 00:33:27,760
Speaker 2: And I think one of the fatal flaws for the

637
00:33:27,800 --> 00:33:30,440
Speaker 2: abortion rights movement is they did not have a huge

638
00:33:30,440 --> 00:33:32,720
Speaker 2: amount of investment. No one on the progressive side of

639
00:33:32,720 --> 00:33:36,920
Speaker 2: the equation really had a huge investment in state legislatures.

640
00:33:37,040 --> 00:33:37,200
Speaker 3: Right.

641
00:33:37,200 --> 00:33:39,760
Speaker 2: There was much more focus on Washington, d C. And

642
00:33:39,800 --> 00:33:42,200
Speaker 2: there was very little happening in cong.

643
00:33:42,080 --> 00:33:45,600
Speaker 1: The conservative movement has been exact opposite. They have, starting

644
00:33:45,640 --> 00:33:48,800
Speaker 1: in the late seventies, been very focused on the states.

645
00:33:48,960 --> 00:33:53,320
Speaker 1: You know, is something called go pack exactly in the

646
00:33:53,360 --> 00:33:55,400
Speaker 1: old New Gingrid era, but anyway, go ahead.

647
00:33:55,280 --> 00:33:56,200
Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly.

648
00:33:56,280 --> 00:33:58,400
Speaker 2: And that's where you know, I mean, we're talking about

649
00:33:58,560 --> 00:34:01,840
Speaker 2: hundreds more than a thousand, and you know, policies coming

650
00:34:01,840 --> 00:34:05,040
Speaker 2: out of state legislatures that chip away at people's access

651
00:34:05,080 --> 00:34:08,440
Speaker 2: to abortion, and basically the abortion rights movement saying, well,

652
00:34:08,800 --> 00:34:10,839
Speaker 2: we'll have to fight those in court, right, I mean,

653
00:34:10,920 --> 00:34:14,080
Speaker 2: starting eventually, you know, the High Amendment. Eventually, they they thought,

654
00:34:14,080 --> 00:34:15,719
Speaker 2: if we can't stop this in Congress, we're going to

655
00:34:15,800 --> 00:34:18,120
Speaker 2: have to fight it in court. And that strategy worked

656
00:34:18,280 --> 00:34:21,000
Speaker 2: until it didn't. Didn't work with the High Amendment, didn't

657
00:34:21,000 --> 00:34:21,640
Speaker 2: work with Roe v.

658
00:34:21,719 --> 00:34:22,040
Speaker 3: Wade.

659
00:34:22,200 --> 00:34:24,080
Speaker 2: You know, it took them fifty years, but that fell

660
00:34:24,080 --> 00:34:27,480
Speaker 2: in twenty twenty two. There were moments that I revisited

661
00:34:27,480 --> 00:34:30,360
Speaker 2: where this issue came up in Congress and where you know,

662
00:34:30,640 --> 00:34:34,920
Speaker 2: Democrats in Congress with a democratic administration actually had an

663
00:34:34,920 --> 00:34:38,000
Speaker 2: opportunity to codify Roe v. Wade until on I look

664
00:34:38,040 --> 00:34:40,680
Speaker 2: at why didn't that happen when it could have. There

665
00:34:40,719 --> 00:34:44,000
Speaker 2: was one moment in the nineteen nineties where there was

666
00:34:44,040 --> 00:34:47,359
Speaker 2: a possibility it could happen, and where basically there were

667
00:34:47,360 --> 00:34:51,239
Speaker 2: disagreements within the abortion rights movement over who do we

668
00:34:51,280 --> 00:34:54,560
Speaker 2: include in codifying the right to abortion? Do we include

669
00:34:54,600 --> 00:34:57,800
Speaker 2: young people, do we include people who are on medicaid?

670
00:34:58,320 --> 00:35:01,960
Speaker 2: Do we try to, you know, protect everyone's rights or

671
00:35:01,960 --> 00:35:04,360
Speaker 2: do we only protect you know, the bare minimum.

672
00:35:04,480 --> 00:35:08,319
Speaker 1: And what you're describing is you know what you know,

673
00:35:08,400 --> 00:35:11,400
Speaker 1: how they what fell through and they had they lost

674
00:35:11,400 --> 00:35:13,840
Speaker 1: Lisa Murkowski and Susan Collins when there was an attempt

675
00:35:13,920 --> 00:35:16,959
Speaker 1: to do that in the Senate. And that's the question.

676
00:35:17,040 --> 00:35:20,920
Speaker 1: Are you codifying row right or are you codifying the

677
00:35:21,040 --> 00:35:24,239
Speaker 1: right right right?

678
00:35:24,360 --> 00:35:26,680
Speaker 2: And and we saw this happen, you know, I mean,

679
00:35:26,719 --> 00:35:31,160
Speaker 2: and the problem is, right, you don't have this sort

680
00:35:31,200 --> 00:35:34,520
Speaker 2: of vociferous dedication to this issue on the Democratic side

681
00:35:34,560 --> 00:35:37,880
Speaker 2: across the board that you do for Republicans who see

682
00:35:38,080 --> 00:35:40,840
Speaker 2: what a brilliant opportunity it is for them to restrict

683
00:35:40,880 --> 00:35:45,480
Speaker 2: abortion and rile up this, you know, contingent of their

684
00:35:45,520 --> 00:35:48,600
Speaker 2: base that they need for that. And so there's disagreements

685
00:35:48,600 --> 00:35:51,279
Speaker 2: within the abortion rights movement about how to contend with

686
00:35:51,320 --> 00:35:54,640
Speaker 2: the weak support that they get from Democrats relatively speaking.

687
00:35:56,080 --> 00:35:58,399
Speaker 2: And we saw this happen again with the Affordable Care

688
00:35:58,440 --> 00:36:02,680
Speaker 2: Act right where abortions became the scapegoat around the Affordable

689
00:36:02,680 --> 00:36:05,400
Speaker 2: Care Act. And Obama, who had come into office promising

690
00:36:05,480 --> 00:36:07,799
Speaker 2: to sign the Freedom of Choice Act to caudify Row,

691
00:36:08,760 --> 00:36:11,520
Speaker 2: then when he gets there says, that's not my priority.

692
00:36:11,640 --> 00:36:13,920
Speaker 2: You know, I want to pass his healthcare law. And

693
00:36:14,320 --> 00:36:17,480
Speaker 2: you know, while that law was an incredible you know,

694
00:36:17,560 --> 00:36:20,239
Speaker 2: expanded healthcare to millions of people who didn't have it,

695
00:36:20,520 --> 00:36:22,600
Speaker 2: on the abortion rights issue in particular, it was seen

696
00:36:22,640 --> 00:36:24,440
Speaker 2: as a step backwards because of the.

697
00:36:24,840 --> 00:36:27,560
Speaker 1: So called look I had to cover that hour by

698
00:36:27,640 --> 00:36:30,920
Speaker 1: hour when these negotiations were taking place. It was the

699
00:36:30,960 --> 00:36:35,560
Speaker 1: so called Stupak Amendment, a pro life Democrat from Michigan

700
00:36:36,480 --> 00:36:39,200
Speaker 1: who was sort of pro union pro you know, it

701
00:36:39,239 --> 00:36:42,960
Speaker 1: was one of those that Catholic Democrats from the seventies

702
00:36:43,160 --> 00:36:46,799
Speaker 1: that you described, and they needed his vote and they

703
00:36:46,840 --> 00:36:50,200
Speaker 1: came up with this convoluted executive order I believe that

704
00:36:50,200 --> 00:36:52,719
Speaker 1: that Obama signed in order to get Stupac on.

705
00:36:52,680 --> 00:36:55,239
Speaker 3: Board exactly exactly.

706
00:36:55,440 --> 00:36:58,000
Speaker 2: And so you know, the silver lining of that is

707
00:36:58,000 --> 00:37:01,400
Speaker 2: that for abortion rights activist, especially those who are younger

708
00:37:01,400 --> 00:37:04,000
Speaker 2: and sort of outside the hill, outside the sort of

709
00:37:04,000 --> 00:37:06,720
Speaker 2: center of political power. That was a real catalyzing moment

710
00:37:06,760 --> 00:37:09,239
Speaker 2: for them to say they're going to escapegoat abortion. While

711
00:37:09,239 --> 00:37:11,120
Speaker 2: they do this, we might as well just go for

712
00:37:11,160 --> 00:37:13,399
Speaker 2: it and call for repealing the High Amendment. And they

713
00:37:13,440 --> 00:37:16,000
Speaker 2: form this sort of long shot campaign to do just that,

714
00:37:16,400 --> 00:37:19,040
Speaker 2: which I talk about as I think the greatest unsung

715
00:37:19,120 --> 00:37:21,680
Speaker 2: success story that the abortion rights movement has had in

716
00:37:21,719 --> 00:37:24,239
Speaker 2: a generation. I mean, it's a really remarkable story of

717
00:37:24,280 --> 00:37:27,279
Speaker 2: how they got people including Joe Biden to talk about

718
00:37:27,360 --> 00:37:29,040
Speaker 2: the High Amendment and how it needed to go.

719
00:37:30,040 --> 00:37:33,200
Speaker 1: Well, if you know, is that the beginning of the

720
00:37:33,239 --> 00:37:36,680
Speaker 1: abortion rights side basically saying, all right, you guys wrote

721
00:37:36,680 --> 00:37:40,960
Speaker 1: the playbook, we'll use your playbook, and we'll start chipping

722
00:37:41,280 --> 00:37:43,480
Speaker 1: sort of chip instead of chipping away. I guess this

723
00:37:43,600 --> 00:37:46,280
Speaker 1: is rebuilding the rights while brick by brick.

724
00:37:47,120 --> 00:37:47,880
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think so.

725
00:37:47,920 --> 00:37:51,520
Speaker 2: I mean, I think what I would argue is that, yes,

726
00:37:51,680 --> 00:37:54,600
Speaker 2: there needs to be incremental progress, and we are seeing that.

727
00:37:54,680 --> 00:37:58,759
Speaker 2: You know, I talk about the activists in Texas who

728
00:37:59,280 --> 00:38:02,520
Speaker 2: bring forward legislation to restore full reproductive freedom there, even

729
00:38:02,560 --> 00:38:04,720
Speaker 2: though they know it won't pass. Okay, that's an example

730
00:38:04,800 --> 00:38:08,040
Speaker 2: of an incremental you know, you introduce legislation, you know

731
00:38:08,080 --> 00:38:09,799
Speaker 2: it's not going to happen, but you keep doing it,

732
00:38:09,880 --> 00:38:12,560
Speaker 2: and you keep doing it, and you know, years from

733
00:38:12,600 --> 00:38:16,120
Speaker 2: now at finally tips to scales. But I also think

734
00:38:16,200 --> 00:38:18,680
Speaker 2: like that, the way that the anti abortion movement succeeded

735
00:38:18,800 --> 00:38:21,600
Speaker 2: wasn't just the incremental legal approach, right, That's where we

736
00:38:21,640 --> 00:38:25,000
Speaker 2: get the most attention, because of course that's what eventually

737
00:38:25,040 --> 00:38:28,759
Speaker 2: resulted in the Supreme Court decision. But they also had

738
00:38:29,080 --> 00:38:33,720
Speaker 2: radical and even extreme militant, you know, factions within their movement.

739
00:38:33,760 --> 00:38:36,840
Speaker 2: They had Operation Riskue that was bringing the you know,

740
00:38:37,040 --> 00:38:40,120
Speaker 2: thousands of people. Randall Terry, who I interviewed for the book,

741
00:38:40,160 --> 00:38:42,799
Speaker 2: had a fascinating run in with him.

742
00:38:42,960 --> 00:38:43,200
Speaker 3: You know.

743
00:38:43,840 --> 00:38:46,719
Speaker 2: They they had their militants, they had their you know,

744
00:38:47,080 --> 00:38:50,960
Speaker 2: their radicals, and you know, they had a long term vision.

745
00:38:51,080 --> 00:38:52,960
Speaker 2: And so I think you need all of it. You know,

746
00:38:53,000 --> 00:38:55,040
Speaker 2: I don't think it's an either or, And I think

747
00:38:55,239 --> 00:38:58,960
Speaker 2: the abortion rights movement often has you know, planned parenthood

748
00:38:58,960 --> 00:39:01,920
Speaker 2: has had a hugely dominant role in the movement and

749
00:39:02,040 --> 00:39:04,399
Speaker 2: has relied on a strategy of protecting its own health

750
00:39:04,400 --> 00:39:08,839
Speaker 2: centers which provide essential services to many. There's often been

751
00:39:08,840 --> 00:39:13,200
Speaker 2: a focus on defending abortion through the courts versus having

752
00:39:13,280 --> 00:39:16,279
Speaker 2: a grassroots, state by state strategy, and I do think

753
00:39:16,280 --> 00:39:18,759
Speaker 2: you're starting to see more boldness. I do think you're

754
00:39:18,760 --> 00:39:21,480
Speaker 2: starting to see more radical thinking on the abortion right

755
00:39:21,560 --> 00:39:24,480
Speaker 2: side now that the constitutional right to abortion is gone,

756
00:39:24,480 --> 00:39:27,360
Speaker 2: because there's this recognition that came too late that the

757
00:39:27,400 --> 00:39:32,160
Speaker 2: courts are not going to protect, threat or expand this right.

758
00:39:34,640 --> 00:39:38,319
Speaker 1: Having good life insurance is incredibly important. I know from

759
00:39:38,360 --> 00:39:41,439
Speaker 1: personal experience. I was sixteen when my father passed away.

760
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761
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Speaker 1: the best shape. My mother, single mother, now widow, myself

762
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763
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764
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Speaker 1: one life insurance policy that we found wasn't a lot,

765
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Speaker 1: but it was important at the time, and it's why

766
00:39:59,680 --> 00:40:03,000
Speaker 1: I was able to go to college. Little did he

767
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Speaker 1: know how important that would be in that moment. Well,

768
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769
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772
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774
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777
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778
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781
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Speaker 1: March twenty twenty five, Business Insider named Ethos the number

782
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783
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784
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786
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787
00:41:09,360 --> 00:41:12,320
Speaker 1: life insurance is something you should really think about, especially

788
00:41:12,719 --> 00:41:18,200
Speaker 1: if you've got a growing family. Would there be a

789
00:41:18,200 --> 00:41:19,880
Speaker 1: federalist society without rope?

790
00:41:21,920 --> 00:41:23,160
Speaker 3: That's a great question.

791
00:41:24,040 --> 00:41:26,480
Speaker 2: I mean, I think they would find other quibbles with, like,

792
00:41:26,640 --> 00:41:31,440
Speaker 2: you know, women's participation in public life even Well, the.

793
00:41:31,400 --> 00:41:33,239
Speaker 1: Reason I said is I think the whole reason we

794
00:41:33,320 --> 00:41:37,080
Speaker 1: got a federal society, yeah, right, where they wanted to

795
00:41:37,239 --> 00:41:39,680
Speaker 1: no longer have the a BA as sort of the

796
00:41:39,760 --> 00:41:43,839
Speaker 1: vetter of things that they wanted, a conservative vetting, not

797
00:41:43,960 --> 00:41:49,600
Speaker 1: a legal vetting on expertise, and you know it's you know,

798
00:41:49,920 --> 00:41:53,680
Speaker 1: basically there's been two sort of one would argue very

799
00:41:53,760 --> 00:41:58,719
Speaker 1: radical schools of thought on trying to deal with certain

800
00:41:58,800 --> 00:42:01,640
Speaker 1: legal issues, one on guns, on an abortion that all

801
00:42:02,120 --> 00:42:09,000
Speaker 1: these legal arguments basically came through Federalist society meetings and

802
00:42:09,120 --> 00:42:10,600
Speaker 1: organizations and trainings.

803
00:42:11,239 --> 00:42:15,040
Speaker 2: Absolutely, and Leonard Leo effectively, you know, handed Trump the

804
00:42:15,120 --> 00:42:17,120
Speaker 2: names that he knew we're going to overturn Roe v.

805
00:42:17,239 --> 00:42:19,759
Speaker 3: Wade, and you know here we are.

806
00:42:21,120 --> 00:42:23,400
Speaker 2: I mean, I guess one thing that's super interesting about

807
00:42:23,480 --> 00:42:26,680
Speaker 2: organizations like that and Alliance Defending Freedom is in this

808
00:42:26,840 --> 00:42:30,400
Speaker 2: category as well. You know, you said that the abortion

809
00:42:30,520 --> 00:42:33,719
Speaker 2: rights movement can copy the anti abortion playbook. But you know,

810
00:42:33,840 --> 00:42:36,040
Speaker 2: part of the way that the anti abortion movement got

811
00:42:36,040 --> 00:42:39,399
Speaker 2: where it is today is by copying their enemy's playbook, right.

812
00:42:40,040 --> 00:42:43,160
Speaker 2: I mean, I spoke to the conservative architect Richard Vigory

813
00:42:43,400 --> 00:42:43,640
Speaker 2: for this.

814
00:42:43,880 --> 00:42:46,160
Speaker 3: You figured out how to raise money through direct mail.

815
00:42:46,320 --> 00:42:49,480
Speaker 1: He was the and arguably the the You know, if

816
00:42:49,520 --> 00:42:52,480
Speaker 1: you hate if you hate direct mail fundraising, if you

817
00:42:52,480 --> 00:42:54,719
Speaker 1: hate email fundraising, you can blame Richard Vigory.

818
00:42:54,560 --> 00:42:57,759
Speaker 2: Right, Roger Craber, who I also talked to his you

819
00:42:57,760 --> 00:42:59,839
Speaker 2: knowargenemy and your friend on the.

820
00:42:59,800 --> 00:43:02,600
Speaker 1: Other, an old friend.

821
00:43:04,160 --> 00:43:07,280
Speaker 2: It's hilarious to revisit a time when like these letters

822
00:43:07,320 --> 00:43:09,279
Speaker 2: they were sending asking people for money were like this

823
00:43:09,400 --> 00:43:10,960
Speaker 2: controversial new technology.

824
00:43:11,120 --> 00:43:13,000
Speaker 3: It was like, oh my gosh, what are they doing,

825
00:43:13,160 --> 00:43:16,640
Speaker 3: you know, And now they just go into the recycling bent.

826
00:43:16,800 --> 00:43:20,719
Speaker 2: But but yeah, they copied the playbook of the civil

827
00:43:20,840 --> 00:43:24,440
Speaker 2: rights movement, they copied their rhetoric, they called themselves, you know.

828
00:43:24,760 --> 00:43:26,440
Speaker 3: And and Jennifer Holland talks.

829
00:43:26,280 --> 00:43:29,239
Speaker 2: About the civil rights movement for white people, which was

830
00:43:29,239 --> 00:43:32,359
Speaker 2: the civil rights movement for fetuses, and how you know,

831
00:43:32,600 --> 00:43:35,319
Speaker 2: when civil rights activists were saying, hey, we need to

832
00:43:35,320 --> 00:43:38,719
Speaker 2: talk about, you know, white supremacy, and white conservatives didn't

833
00:43:38,719 --> 00:43:41,839
Speaker 2: want to do that. Instead, they created their own sort

834
00:43:41,840 --> 00:43:44,960
Speaker 2: of imitation civil rights movement where they were championing the

835
00:43:45,040 --> 00:43:47,440
Speaker 2: rights of the fetus. And they co opted the language,

836
00:43:47,480 --> 00:43:50,520
Speaker 2: I mean right to life, you know, And they saw

837
00:43:50,560 --> 00:43:53,160
Speaker 2: themselves as civil rights activists. They ran clips of Martin

838
00:43:53,200 --> 00:43:56,600
Speaker 2: Luther King. You know, they believed that they were carrying

839
00:43:56,640 --> 00:44:00,400
Speaker 2: on the great civil rights struggle of their time. And so,

840
00:44:00,800 --> 00:44:02,319
Speaker 2: you know, I think the other side has really been

841
00:44:02,400 --> 00:44:07,080
Speaker 2: masters of copying the playbook of and you know Alliance

842
00:44:07,080 --> 00:44:09,680
Speaker 2: Defending Freedom, which ultimately brought the case that you know,

843
00:44:10,080 --> 00:44:13,000
Speaker 2: designed the legal strategy that overturned ro V Wade. You know,

844
00:44:13,080 --> 00:44:17,080
Speaker 2: they were a response to the ACLU and to left

845
00:44:17,160 --> 00:44:20,960
Speaker 2: leaning legal power, and so a lot of how he

846
00:44:21,040 --> 00:44:26,000
Speaker 2: got here is through reactionary strategies. And I think, you know,

847
00:44:26,080 --> 00:44:29,600
Speaker 2: the abortion rights and left side has not always been

848
00:44:29,680 --> 00:44:32,240
Speaker 2: as good at observing and learning from the enemy.

849
00:44:32,920 --> 00:44:36,360
Speaker 1: So ultimately, a right that a large majority of Americans

850
00:44:36,400 --> 00:44:42,240
Speaker 1: believe should exist was overturned in a fifty year campaign.

851
00:44:42,440 --> 00:44:47,120
Speaker 1: So if you were to line up five entities responsible

852
00:44:48,719 --> 00:44:54,920
Speaker 1: for this, are there anybody on the pro abortion rights

853
00:44:54,960 --> 00:44:56,320
Speaker 1: side that belonged there.

854
00:44:57,800 --> 00:44:57,920
Speaker 2: Right?

855
00:44:58,000 --> 00:44:59,320
Speaker 3: Say it again, if you were to line.

856
00:44:59,360 --> 00:45:01,480
Speaker 1: If you had a line up, say the five entities,

857
00:45:01,520 --> 00:45:03,919
Speaker 1: whether it's people or groups that you would say, Hey,

858
00:45:03,960 --> 00:45:06,080
Speaker 1: they deserve credit or blame however you want to look

859
00:45:06,120 --> 00:45:08,920
Speaker 1: at this. But for you know, for the overturning of

860
00:45:08,960 --> 00:45:11,880
Speaker 1: Dobs for taking away this right. Is it only people

861
00:45:11,880 --> 00:45:13,799
Speaker 1: who were advocating to take this right or are there

862
00:45:13,840 --> 00:45:16,839
Speaker 1: people who in theory didn't want to see the right

863
00:45:16,880 --> 00:45:18,880
Speaker 1: go away who also belong on this list?

864
00:45:19,640 --> 00:45:19,879
Speaker 3: Oh?

865
00:45:19,960 --> 00:45:23,799
Speaker 2: Absolutely absolutely, And that's why you know, I'm in my

866
00:45:24,120 --> 00:45:26,960
Speaker 2: like Miss Marple approach to figuring out who did it

867
00:45:27,000 --> 00:45:29,960
Speaker 2: and why. That's why I talked to people on both sides,

868
00:45:30,080 --> 00:45:33,960
Speaker 2: and I went after, you know, everyone I could talk

869
00:45:34,040 --> 00:45:36,960
Speaker 2: to who had been there on the abortion right side,

870
00:45:37,040 --> 00:45:40,040
Speaker 2: you know, the people who were heads of NAYRAL, of

871
00:45:40,080 --> 00:45:41,960
Speaker 2: the National Organization for Women.

872
00:45:42,640 --> 00:45:43,719
Speaker 3: Of Planned Parenthood.

873
00:45:43,719 --> 00:45:45,560
Speaker 2: I went and talked with Fay Waddleton, it was Planned

874
00:45:45,600 --> 00:45:48,920
Speaker 2: Parenthood president starting in nineteen seventy eight, and I asked

875
00:45:48,920 --> 00:45:51,040
Speaker 2: them all some version of the same question, which is

876
00:45:51,040 --> 00:45:53,719
Speaker 2: like what keeps you up at night? What could you

877
00:45:53,760 --> 00:45:56,960
Speaker 2: have done differently? And some people didn't want to take

878
00:45:57,000 --> 00:45:59,680
Speaker 2: responsibility and some people did. You know, of course they

879
00:45:59,719 --> 00:46:02,960
Speaker 2: did greed about exactly what could have done been done differently,

880
00:46:04,480 --> 00:46:07,600
Speaker 2: but I think that they're and look, the other issue

881
00:46:07,640 --> 00:46:10,120
Speaker 2: is they were under resource for what they needed to

882
00:46:10,160 --> 00:46:16,839
Speaker 2: do and consistently outflanked by their opponents. So but I

883
00:46:16,880 --> 00:46:19,719
Speaker 2: do think you need to look at at organizations like

884
00:46:19,880 --> 00:46:23,040
Speaker 2: Nayral and Planned Parenthood and what you know, complicity they have.

885
00:46:23,160 --> 00:46:27,000
Speaker 2: I mean, those were the two most influential organizations, and

886
00:46:27,040 --> 00:46:29,719
Speaker 2: what decisions were made along the way that you know,

887
00:46:30,160 --> 00:46:34,239
Speaker 2: in some way made this a cause that that more

888
00:46:34,280 --> 00:46:36,759
Speaker 2: people could support because they were narrowing the frame. They

889
00:46:36,800 --> 00:46:39,640
Speaker 2: were talking about choice, they were talking about just protecting

890
00:46:39,760 --> 00:46:43,600
Speaker 2: Roe v. Wade rather than focusing on things like you know,

891
00:46:43,680 --> 00:46:49,080
Speaker 2: young people and public funding. And yet there you know,

892
00:46:49,640 --> 00:46:52,680
Speaker 2: there was damage done as a result of those compromises

893
00:46:52,880 --> 00:46:55,000
Speaker 2: as well. So yes, I think you have to look

894
00:46:55,040 --> 00:46:57,120
Speaker 2: at at people on both sides of the struggle.

895
00:47:00,040 --> 00:47:05,440
Speaker 1: Using or feeling as if you're having to fight for

896
00:47:05,600 --> 00:47:11,719
Speaker 1: something can be more galvanizing than defending something that's legal. Right,

897
00:47:11,760 --> 00:47:14,480
Speaker 1: and that used to be one of the rationales. And

898
00:47:14,520 --> 00:47:17,040
Speaker 1: the assumption was, you know, why why was the right

899
00:47:17,160 --> 00:47:20,480
Speaker 1: always more motivated by Supreme Court openings and elections than

900
00:47:20,520 --> 00:47:23,560
Speaker 1: the left? Right? One of my great you know, I

901
00:47:23,200 --> 00:47:26,600
Speaker 1: love I love butterfly effects with history and you know,

902
00:47:26,640 --> 00:47:30,920
Speaker 1: like you use of one thing had changed and you know,

903
00:47:31,000 --> 00:47:34,040
Speaker 1: had Scalia lived, I don't think Donald Trump becomes president.

904
00:47:34,680 --> 00:47:39,960
Speaker 1: It's just one of my theses. Because the right there

905
00:47:39,960 --> 00:47:42,239
Speaker 1: were people that didn't like Trump's character, who held their

906
00:47:42,280 --> 00:47:45,920
Speaker 1: nose because it issue matters to them so much, who's

907
00:47:45,920 --> 00:47:49,600
Speaker 1: on the Supreme Court matters to them so much. Even

908
00:47:49,640 --> 00:47:51,920
Speaker 1: in the wake of losing Dobbs. I think there was

909
00:47:51,960 --> 00:47:55,040
Speaker 1: an assumption I had it there was some evidence in

910
00:47:55,080 --> 00:47:58,719
Speaker 1: polling it would be there that the single mindedness that

911
00:47:59,280 --> 00:48:02,040
Speaker 1: we saw on the right about this issue would basically

912
00:48:02,080 --> 00:48:06,160
Speaker 1: transform itself and become a single mindedness on the left.

913
00:48:06,920 --> 00:48:09,000
Speaker 1: We're not seeing that. Why do you think that is?

914
00:48:10,040 --> 00:48:10,360
Speaker 3: Yeah?

915
00:48:10,480 --> 00:48:14,400
Speaker 2: I have to say I shared that misapprehension as well,

916
00:48:14,600 --> 00:48:17,680
Speaker 2: which is why I put myself in the position of

917
00:48:17,680 --> 00:48:20,600
Speaker 2: being in Amarillo, Texas, in a room full of Trump

918
00:48:20,640 --> 00:48:28,960
Speaker 2: supporters on election day, because I was interesting choice. I

919
00:48:29,040 --> 00:48:33,960
Speaker 2: went down there thinking I was so confident that anyway,

920
00:48:34,880 --> 00:48:37,600
Speaker 2: I did have another prediction that turned out to be true,

921
00:48:37,640 --> 00:48:40,319
Speaker 2: which was there was an anti abortion ordinance on the

922
00:48:40,360 --> 00:48:45,120
Speaker 2: ballot in Amarillo, and that anti abortion ordinance failed in

923
00:48:45,160 --> 00:48:48,160
Speaker 2: this super conservative area in Texas, even though, of course

924
00:48:48,239 --> 00:48:51,160
Speaker 2: Trump was elected, and so the activists I happen to

925
00:48:51,200 --> 00:48:53,880
Speaker 2: be spending time with were actually super depressed, you know,

926
00:48:54,280 --> 00:48:56,360
Speaker 2: for that reason, because they've been working very hard on

927
00:48:56,400 --> 00:48:59,560
Speaker 2: this ordinance. I mean, and that disconnect, I think tells

928
00:48:59,560 --> 00:49:02,520
Speaker 2: you a lot, right about the fact that even in

929
00:49:02,560 --> 00:49:06,880
Speaker 2: this super conservative area, this pretty extreme ordinance that was

930
00:49:06,880 --> 00:49:09,640
Speaker 2: trying to stop people from leaving the state of Texas

931
00:49:09,680 --> 00:49:10,200
Speaker 2: to get abortion.

932
00:49:10,960 --> 00:49:13,399
Speaker 1: You couldn't leave the county, right or something like this, right.

933
00:49:13,480 --> 00:49:19,160
Speaker 2: Didn't one people, and people were passing through the Texas state.

934
00:49:18,000 --> 00:49:18,480
Speaker 3: So they were.

935
00:49:18,600 --> 00:49:21,360
Speaker 2: It was this kind I mean, really to restrict people

936
00:49:22,760 --> 00:49:25,399
Speaker 2: driving to abortion clinics or ordering pills through the mail.

937
00:49:25,440 --> 00:49:29,160
Speaker 2: It's very hard to stop the unstoppable unless you resort

938
00:49:29,200 --> 00:49:31,680
Speaker 2: to pretty draconian scenarios, and.

939
00:49:31,920 --> 00:49:32,640
Speaker 3: This was one of them.

940
00:49:32,800 --> 00:49:36,319
Speaker 2: It was defeated, And so I was talking to as

941
00:49:36,320 --> 00:49:38,520
Speaker 2: many people as I could in the parking lot outside

942
00:49:38,560 --> 00:49:41,600
Speaker 2: these polling places, and some of them had indeed voted

943
00:49:41,600 --> 00:49:45,319
Speaker 2: against this ordinance, right, so effectively in support of you know,

944
00:49:45,800 --> 00:49:48,720
Speaker 2: limited abortion rights and voting for.

945
00:49:48,680 --> 00:49:49,560
Speaker 3: Trump, you know.

946
00:49:50,200 --> 00:49:53,959
Speaker 2: And part of it, I think is that Trump had

947
00:49:54,120 --> 00:49:56,560
Speaker 2: convinced some number of voters that he was a moderate

948
00:49:56,640 --> 00:49:57,880
Speaker 2: on the abortion issue.

949
00:49:58,640 --> 00:50:00,120
Speaker 3: He had convinced some number.

950
00:50:00,200 --> 00:50:01,600
Speaker 1: Look what he did in Florida. I mean, it was

951
00:50:01,640 --> 00:50:04,920
Speaker 1: sort of you know, his that you know, you know,

952
00:50:05,000 --> 00:50:07,000
Speaker 1: it's funny, it's just like, you know, it's the there's

953
00:50:07,200 --> 00:50:09,720
Speaker 1: that Joe Biden saying, don't judge me by the almighty,

954
00:50:09,800 --> 00:50:13,120
Speaker 1: judge me by the alternative. And this is a case

955
00:50:13,160 --> 00:50:16,560
Speaker 1: where Trump took advantage of the alternative. Boy, this six

956
00:50:16,680 --> 00:50:19,960
Speaker 1: week ballot initiative is so extreme, I don't know who

957
00:50:19,960 --> 00:50:23,680
Speaker 1: could support that. Well, it looked moderate because he was

958
00:50:23,760 --> 00:50:26,320
Speaker 1: to the left of Ronda Santus, right.

959
00:50:26,480 --> 00:50:29,240
Speaker 3: Right right, which worked with a certain number of people.

960
00:50:29,280 --> 00:50:31,600
Speaker 2: I think, and I mean I think the other issue

961
00:50:31,640 --> 00:50:34,520
Speaker 2: going on, it was fascinating to watch the abortion rights

962
00:50:34,560 --> 00:50:37,480
Speaker 2: activists and their strategy on the ground and Amarillo. They

963
00:50:37,520 --> 00:50:39,919
Speaker 2: were basically copying the other side's playbook. They were trying

964
00:50:39,920 --> 00:50:42,080
Speaker 2: to make abortions sound like a conservative issue.

965
00:50:42,640 --> 00:50:44,920
Speaker 1: Right, don't let the government tell you what to do, right.

966
00:50:45,320 --> 00:50:46,320
Speaker 3: Yes, get the government.

967
00:50:46,400 --> 00:50:49,040
Speaker 2: The government's trying to make a travel ban here, you know,

968
00:50:49,080 --> 00:50:52,440
Speaker 2: they're coming for your guns, except it's reproductive freedom.

969
00:50:53,120 --> 00:50:54,120
Speaker 3: And it worked.

970
00:50:54,160 --> 00:50:56,239
Speaker 2: And I but I think that there's, you know, a

971
00:50:56,360 --> 00:50:59,560
Speaker 2: downside to framing abortion as a conservative issue. Yes, it

972
00:50:59,560 --> 00:51:03,320
Speaker 2: means you could win on the single issue with conservative voters.

973
00:51:04,000 --> 00:51:06,799
Speaker 1: But let me let me push back on let me

974
00:51:06,840 --> 00:51:08,960
Speaker 1: push back in a second, because this is where I

975
00:51:09,000 --> 00:51:12,200
Speaker 1: get frustrated. The word freedom is not a conservative word, right,

976
00:51:12,840 --> 00:51:17,960
Speaker 1: but the conservatives have more successfully used the word and

977
00:51:18,040 --> 00:51:20,600
Speaker 1: marketed the word as a you know, you see the

978
00:51:20,640 --> 00:51:24,280
Speaker 1: words freedom and patriot right, and automatically there's this assumption

979
00:51:24,360 --> 00:51:26,000
Speaker 1: that they're trying to appeal to the right. And I'm

980
00:51:26,000 --> 00:51:28,800
Speaker 1: sitting here going, hey, I'm a patriot, I'm for freedom.

981
00:51:28,840 --> 00:51:33,440
Speaker 1: I don't know, you know, you know, and and it

982
00:51:33,480 --> 00:51:35,720
Speaker 1: is not lost on me. I mean, Kansas was another

983
00:51:35,760 --> 00:51:40,839
Speaker 1: example of this. We're using these same sort of keep

984
00:51:40,880 --> 00:51:43,719
Speaker 1: the government out of you know, the same arguments the

985
00:51:44,080 --> 00:51:47,680
Speaker 1: right makes on guns. Make it the same thing about

986
00:51:48,840 --> 00:51:54,399
Speaker 1: your personal autonomy and the argument, I mean, the good

987
00:51:54,400 --> 00:51:56,759
Speaker 1: news is it shows you people are not like you

988
00:51:56,760 --> 00:51:59,959
Speaker 1: know people actually, you know, we think everybody has groups.

989
00:52:00,280 --> 00:52:02,400
Speaker 1: Now when you frame it this way, people do start

990
00:52:02,400 --> 00:52:05,320
Speaker 1: to personalize. Well, let me put this in my shoes.

991
00:52:05,360 --> 00:52:07,480
Speaker 1: And I think that's why you get the numbers that

992
00:52:07,560 --> 00:52:11,160
Speaker 1: you get on this issue. Is this not the playbook?

993
00:52:11,440 --> 00:52:15,160
Speaker 1: Go with the freedom the freedom messaging and the and

994
00:52:15,239 --> 00:52:16,640
Speaker 1: the autonomy messaging.

995
00:52:17,000 --> 00:52:20,360
Speaker 2: It worked, you know, it worked and defeating that ordinance.

996
00:52:20,800 --> 00:52:23,239
Speaker 2: You know, it was the message that that you know,

997
00:52:23,320 --> 00:52:25,959
Speaker 2: and it certainly wasn't the first time that it had

998
00:52:26,200 --> 00:52:31,799
Speaker 2: been used successfully. But then you know, is there a downside?

999
00:52:31,840 --> 00:52:35,239
Speaker 2: And then giving people permission to vote in line with

1000
00:52:35,280 --> 00:52:39,719
Speaker 2: their conservative politics and other issues? Right, I mean, I

1001
00:52:39,760 --> 00:52:41,320
Speaker 2: think that's an interesting question.

1002
00:52:41,880 --> 00:52:46,880
Speaker 1: This is right, It's it's having personal rights be up

1003
00:52:46,920 --> 00:52:50,200
Speaker 1: for debate versus right. This was arguably the whole point

1004
00:52:50,200 --> 00:52:53,640
Speaker 1: of the constitution, right, so that we didn't have elections

1005
00:52:53,680 --> 00:52:55,719
Speaker 1: constant elections to determine, well, do you have a right

1006
00:52:55,760 --> 00:52:57,640
Speaker 1: to speech this year or not? You know that sort

1007
00:52:57,640 --> 00:52:57,880
Speaker 1: of thing.

1008
00:52:58,800 --> 00:53:03,359
Speaker 2: Yeah, yes, oh yeah, that document. Sometimes you forget about

1009
00:53:03,360 --> 00:53:04,320
Speaker 2: it these days.

1010
00:53:04,120 --> 00:53:07,200
Speaker 1: Right, I know, I just wish I remember Congress would

1011
00:53:07,200 --> 00:53:09,920
Speaker 1: read it once, you know, realize where Article one sits.

1012
00:53:11,920 --> 00:53:19,680
Speaker 1: But I digress. So where if I three years ago

1013
00:53:19,760 --> 00:53:23,799
Speaker 1: I was pretty confident that the right to abortion would

1014
00:53:23,800 --> 00:53:27,440
Speaker 1: be an all fifty states by the start of the

1015
00:53:27,440 --> 00:53:30,360
Speaker 1: twenty thirties, why am I less convinced that's going to

1016
00:53:30,400 --> 00:53:30,799
Speaker 1: be the case.

1017
00:53:32,320 --> 00:53:34,080
Speaker 3: Why are you less convinced that it's going Yeah?

1018
00:53:34,160 --> 00:53:36,799
Speaker 1: And I feel like your book only frankly reinforces my

1019
00:53:37,480 --> 00:53:40,759
Speaker 1: newfound skepticism that, oh, is the public going to start

1020
00:53:40,800 --> 00:53:44,480
Speaker 1: to tolerate this or accept this or sort of decide

1021
00:53:44,520 --> 00:53:47,000
Speaker 1: not to fight this or is this something that maybe

1022
00:53:47,000 --> 00:53:51,919
Speaker 1: when Trump goes away, this reanimates itself, right, right?

1023
00:53:52,000 --> 00:53:54,279
Speaker 2: I mean I think I don't want to overlook the

1024
00:53:54,320 --> 00:53:58,399
Speaker 2: fact that it is animating for a decent chunk of Americans, right.

1025
00:53:58,600 --> 00:54:00,760
Speaker 2: I think that you know that one in four women

1026
00:54:00,800 --> 00:54:03,719
Speaker 2: will have an abortion in her lifetime. My friend, the

1027
00:54:03,719 --> 00:54:06,520
Speaker 2: activist Renee Bracy Sherman likes to say, everyone loves someone

1028
00:54:06,560 --> 00:54:10,200
Speaker 2: who's had an abortion, and so for those for those people,

1029
00:54:10,280 --> 00:54:14,040
Speaker 2: this is a live issue. This is never something that

1030
00:54:14,080 --> 00:54:17,920
Speaker 2: it is always top of mind. And I do think

1031
00:54:17,960 --> 00:54:20,080
Speaker 2: it was an issue in the twenty twenty four election, right,

1032
00:54:20,160 --> 00:54:22,120
Speaker 2: I know, because I sat in on focus groups, I

1033
00:54:22,200 --> 00:54:24,120
Speaker 2: talked to voters. It was something a lot of them

1034
00:54:24,120 --> 00:54:29,000
Speaker 2: were thinking about. But I don't know why it wasn't

1035
00:54:29,160 --> 00:54:32,200
Speaker 2: enough to tip the scales, right, I mean, when.

1036
00:54:32,000 --> 00:54:34,080
Speaker 1: He's already a pretty big gender gap. But I guess

1037
00:54:34,120 --> 00:54:36,239
Speaker 1: the gender gap wasn't big enough. I mean, there's still

1038
00:54:36,280 --> 00:54:41,680
Speaker 1: a significant chunk of women that do not share the

1039
00:54:42,160 --> 00:54:46,440
Speaker 1: share the same views on bodily autonomy as a majority

1040
00:54:46,480 --> 00:54:48,200
Speaker 1: of women do, right.

1041
00:54:48,600 --> 00:54:52,440
Speaker 2: Right, right, you know, And and abortion was pulling as

1042
00:54:52,480 --> 00:54:55,400
Speaker 2: an important issue, you know, it certainly rose in importance

1043
00:54:55,440 --> 00:54:59,360
Speaker 2: for voters after the Dobs decision, but it didn't outweigh

1044
00:54:59,360 --> 00:55:02,319
Speaker 2: the economy, didn't outlish some of those other issues that

1045
00:55:02,440 --> 00:55:06,760
Speaker 2: people care about because it affects their day to day lives,

1046
00:55:07,320 --> 00:55:08,920
Speaker 2: which again abortion does.

1047
00:55:08,800 --> 00:55:10,120
Speaker 3: Too for a lot of people.

1048
00:55:10,520 --> 00:55:13,120
Speaker 2: I think, you know, I think potentially one you know

1049
00:55:14,000 --> 00:55:17,000
Speaker 2: flaw in the Democrats strategy with this in twenty twenty

1050
00:55:17,000 --> 00:55:20,080
Speaker 2: four is again when you talk about just choice, when

1051
00:55:20,120 --> 00:55:22,080
Speaker 2: you talk about abortion, when you talk about it in

1052
00:55:22,160 --> 00:55:25,720
Speaker 2: isolation from other issues, you don't give people a framework

1053
00:55:25,760 --> 00:55:28,279
Speaker 2: to think about it as connected to the economy, as

1054
00:55:28,320 --> 00:55:31,719
Speaker 2: connected to you know, all of the other issues that

1055
00:55:31,840 --> 00:55:33,799
Speaker 2: they think about in their day to day lives, when

1056
00:55:33,800 --> 00:55:36,479
Speaker 2: in fact, it is when people are making decisions about

1057
00:55:36,480 --> 00:55:38,560
Speaker 2: the shape of their families based on how much money

1058
00:55:38,600 --> 00:55:41,640
Speaker 2: they have, on how much support the government is providing,

1059
00:55:41,680 --> 00:55:44,279
Speaker 2: on whether they can pay for childcare. Abortion is an

1060
00:55:44,280 --> 00:55:46,680
Speaker 2: economic issue, but I think the way that it gets

1061
00:55:46,680 --> 00:55:49,319
Speaker 2: talked about is again in that narrow choice framing. You know,

1062
00:55:49,400 --> 00:55:51,160
Speaker 2: this is just about the decision that you make and

1063
00:55:51,200 --> 00:55:53,640
Speaker 2: whether you can get to a clinic or not. And

1064
00:55:53,680 --> 00:55:55,799
Speaker 2: in fact, the way that people experience it is that

1065
00:55:55,800 --> 00:55:58,359
Speaker 2: it's part of the sort of fabric of how they

1066
00:55:58,760 --> 00:56:01,160
Speaker 2: you know, shape their lives, they choose to live with,

1067
00:56:01,400 --> 00:56:03,640
Speaker 2: you know, what they choose for their work like this

1068
00:56:03,760 --> 00:56:06,680
Speaker 2: is this is not a decision that's made in isolation.

1069
00:56:08,000 --> 00:56:10,640
Speaker 2: And I think a lot of the way that it

1070
00:56:10,680 --> 00:56:12,880
Speaker 2: got talked about was sort of with these sort of

1071
00:56:13,000 --> 00:56:18,760
Speaker 2: narrow stories that were much more about abortion in isolation

1072
00:56:18,840 --> 00:56:20,800
Speaker 2: from the rest of people's experiences.

1073
00:56:21,239 --> 00:56:24,560
Speaker 1: Is there anything to learn from the fact that birth

1074
00:56:24,640 --> 00:56:28,920
Speaker 1: control is in some ways been taken off the political

1075
00:56:28,920 --> 00:56:33,600
Speaker 1: debate stage. That's interesting, you know, in that look, we

1076
00:56:33,680 --> 00:56:37,719
Speaker 1: still have some fights over what do you do do

1077
00:56:37,840 --> 00:56:39,600
Speaker 1: I U D S or you know that going to

1078
00:56:39,600 --> 00:56:43,239
Speaker 1: get paid for and all? You know, I but you know,

1079
00:56:43,680 --> 00:56:46,880
Speaker 1: it's almost as if those that cared so much about

1080
00:56:47,800 --> 00:56:50,399
Speaker 1: getting rid of the right to abortion, we're willing to say, Okay,

1081
00:56:50,440 --> 00:56:52,640
Speaker 1: I'm going to be It was always the you know,

1082
00:56:52,640 --> 00:56:54,720
Speaker 1: I remember Bobby Jindall, I'm going to make birth control

1083
00:56:54,800 --> 00:57:00,719
Speaker 1: free over here in Louisiana, while we also to advocate

1084
00:57:00,920 --> 00:57:02,440
Speaker 1: for not having a right to abortion.

1085
00:57:04,760 --> 00:57:05,120
Speaker 2: Is there.

1086
00:57:06,840 --> 00:57:09,239
Speaker 1: Is there anything to be learned from the fact that

1087
00:57:09,280 --> 00:57:13,840
Speaker 1: there is even greater support for birth control that the

1088
00:57:13,880 --> 00:57:17,000
Speaker 1: abortion rights movement can sort of draft off of.

1089
00:57:17,080 --> 00:57:20,080
Speaker 2: If that makes sense, You know, I'm glad it looks

1090
00:57:20,120 --> 00:57:22,680
Speaker 2: to you that way. I spend a lot of time

1091
00:57:23,000 --> 00:57:25,680
Speaker 2: for my job as a reporter hanging around with anti

1092
00:57:25,720 --> 00:57:26,800
Speaker 2: abortion activists.

1093
00:57:26,960 --> 00:57:29,200
Speaker 1: No, I know, the activist community still wants to get

1094
00:57:29,240 --> 00:57:31,200
Speaker 1: rid of birth control, but it doesn't have.

1095
00:57:31,120 --> 00:57:33,120
Speaker 3: A traction right right, right.

1096
00:57:33,080 --> 00:57:36,000
Speaker 2: But it's very live for them. I mean, that is

1097
00:57:36,040 --> 00:57:38,840
Speaker 2: their end goal, right. They think abortion should go. A

1098
00:57:39,240 --> 00:57:41,840
Speaker 2: healthy member of them think IVF should go as well.

1099
00:57:42,800 --> 00:57:47,600
Speaker 2: But of course, you know, savvy politicians are more circumspect

1100
00:57:47,880 --> 00:57:52,200
Speaker 2: about that, you know, I mean again, listen, Richard Viggery.

1101
00:57:52,400 --> 00:57:55,120
Speaker 2: You know we just talked about and his ilk saw

1102
00:57:55,320 --> 00:58:00,000
Speaker 2: the way that they could make abortion specifically political issue,

1103
00:58:00,080 --> 00:58:03,600
Speaker 2: you and sort of manufactured it as a political issue

1104
00:58:03,640 --> 00:58:07,480
Speaker 2: that could rally strategically, could bring Catholics into their coalition,

1105
00:58:08,320 --> 00:58:12,120
Speaker 2: social Catholics to their coalition exactly, and how are they

1106
00:58:12,120 --> 00:58:15,040
Speaker 2: going to get Catholics to to you know, come into

1107
00:58:15,040 --> 00:58:18,280
Speaker 2: the fold of the Republican Party on the issue of abortion, right,

1108
00:58:18,400 --> 00:58:21,200
Speaker 2: And so they isolated it as a political issue, even

1109
00:58:21,240 --> 00:58:24,080
Speaker 2: though that's not how it is in human beings, real lives, right,

1110
00:58:24,160 --> 00:58:27,640
Speaker 2: The issues of birth control abortion are in me.

1111
00:58:27,560 --> 00:58:30,280
Speaker 1: It's all intertwined, and that I've always thought, could could

1112
00:58:31,120 --> 00:58:35,600
Speaker 1: the Morning After Pill become the parental notification of the

1113
00:58:35,640 --> 00:58:39,920
Speaker 1: abortion rights movement where where they're essentially the bild instead

1114
00:58:39,920 --> 00:58:42,840
Speaker 1: of the chip away the building that this is you know,

1115
00:58:42,920 --> 00:58:46,840
Speaker 1: as you know, and this goes to the whole should

1116
00:58:47,040 --> 00:58:49,480
Speaker 1: is it going to take you know, is it going

1117
00:58:49,520 --> 00:58:51,280
Speaker 1: to take fifty years to get the right back? Or

1118
00:58:51,320 --> 00:58:53,360
Speaker 1: maybe twenty five years take the right back? Because this

1119
00:58:53,400 --> 00:58:56,280
Speaker 1: has to be this has to be methodical. It has

1120
00:58:56,320 --> 00:58:58,800
Speaker 1: to be sort of one brick at a time, because

1121
00:58:58,960 --> 00:59:00,720
Speaker 1: hoping that there will be a Congress that will do

1122
00:59:00,760 --> 00:59:02,800
Speaker 1: this and a president that'll sign it, that that actually

1123
00:59:03,360 --> 00:59:07,080
Speaker 1: that's just like buying scratch scratch off lottery tickets that

1124
00:59:07,160 --> 00:59:09,880
Speaker 1: you're better off at least making incremental progress. And the

1125
00:59:09,960 --> 00:59:15,560
Speaker 1: more you know, parental notification getting mainstreamed, right, kept the

1126
00:59:15,640 --> 00:59:19,880
Speaker 1: idea that abortion was controversial, right, meaning once you take

1127
00:59:19,920 --> 00:59:23,640
Speaker 1: away and there's an argument you made, if the Morning

1128
00:59:23,680 --> 00:59:27,760
Speaker 1: After Pill became mainstream, then all of a sudden people

1129
00:59:27,960 --> 00:59:30,680
Speaker 1: see it, it's no longer, it's less controversial, right, So

1130
00:59:31,160 --> 00:59:33,640
Speaker 1: you're tipping away at a psyche. And I guess that's

1131
00:59:33,680 --> 00:59:38,400
Speaker 1: my question, could is where do you expect the abortion

1132
00:59:38,520 --> 00:59:42,400
Speaker 1: rights activist community to go to be going immediately to

1133
00:59:42,400 --> 00:59:45,240
Speaker 1: try to get a congressional answer here or this long

1134
00:59:45,720 --> 00:59:50,760
Speaker 1: sort of basically mirror image campaign brick by brick, Right.

1135
00:59:51,240 --> 00:59:54,160
Speaker 3: I mean, I think the predominant place where the abortion

1136
00:59:54,560 --> 00:59:57,040
Speaker 3: rights movement, at least the sort of ground troops within

1137
00:59:57,080 --> 00:59:59,800
Speaker 3: the abortion rights movement have gone at this point is

1138
00:59:59,840 --> 01:00:03,200
Speaker 3: there just providing abortions regardless of what the laws in

1139
01:00:03,280 --> 01:00:04,520
Speaker 3: these states, say.

1140
01:00:04,400 --> 01:00:09,360
Speaker 2: Right, I mean, you know, yeah, and they have sued

1141
01:00:09,360 --> 01:00:11,400
Speaker 2: and so far, you know, this is all going to

1142
01:00:11,480 --> 01:00:13,480
Speaker 2: end up before the Supreme Court. But you have eight

1143
01:00:13,520 --> 01:00:16,680
Speaker 2: states that have passed shield laws that say a doctor

1144
01:00:16,680 --> 01:00:20,320
Speaker 2: in New York or Massachusetts can ship medication abortion to

1145
01:00:20,400 --> 01:00:23,760
Speaker 2: Texas or Alabama, and they're doing this for free or

1146
01:00:23,800 --> 01:00:27,680
Speaker 2: for very cheap and will protect them. Right, States like

1147
01:00:27,720 --> 01:00:31,640
Speaker 2: my state of Massachusetts are protecting those clinicians. So far,

1148
01:00:31,920 --> 01:00:33,840
Speaker 2: this is held up, and so what that means is

1149
01:00:33,840 --> 01:00:36,360
Speaker 2: that the number of abortions has gone up since the

1150
01:00:36,440 --> 01:00:40,800
Speaker 2: Dobs decision, and so I think it remains to be seen.

1151
01:00:40,840 --> 01:00:43,840
Speaker 2: I mean, finally we're seeing the kind of like legal

1152
01:00:43,920 --> 01:00:46,880
Speaker 2: experimentation that the anti abortion movement was so good at

1153
01:00:47,000 --> 01:00:49,080
Speaker 2: happening on the abortion right side. I think that's what

1154
01:00:49,120 --> 01:00:51,560
Speaker 2: these shield laws are. I think it remains to be

1155
01:00:51,640 --> 01:00:54,120
Speaker 2: seen if the Supreme Court is gonna let it hold.

1156
01:00:54,160 --> 01:00:55,880
Speaker 2: I think it remains to be seen if after the

1157
01:00:55,920 --> 01:00:59,160
Speaker 2: midterms are done, the Trump administration comes in with some

1158
01:00:59,200 --> 01:01:02,440
Speaker 2: sort of restrict on abortion pills by mail. I mean,

1159
01:01:02,480 --> 01:01:04,880
Speaker 2: it tells you everything that they seem to have decided

1160
01:01:04,920 --> 01:01:06,680
Speaker 2: not to do so before the midterms.

1161
01:01:08,040 --> 01:01:09,600
Speaker 1: But I think there are a seeming to be some

1162
01:01:10,000 --> 01:01:12,720
Speaker 1: You talk to some of my folks I've talked on

1163
01:01:12,760 --> 01:01:15,600
Speaker 1: the right, and they're really bitter that RFK Junior is

1164
01:01:15,600 --> 01:01:18,880
Speaker 1: sitting at HHHS because of this very issue.

1165
01:01:19,200 --> 01:01:22,560
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, yeah, you know, and you know, the FDA

1166
01:01:23,480 --> 01:01:26,520
Speaker 2: could crack down on you know, abortion pills by mail.

1167
01:01:26,960 --> 01:01:27,120
Speaker 3: You know.

1168
01:01:27,120 --> 01:01:29,640
Speaker 2: Project twenty twenty five lays out a way that the

1169
01:01:29,760 --> 01:01:32,800
Speaker 2: Justice Department could invoke the eighteen seventy three Comstock Act,

1170
01:01:32,840 --> 01:01:36,240
Speaker 2: this Victorian era anti vice law, to stop the mailing

1171
01:01:36,240 --> 01:01:39,160
Speaker 2: of abortion pills. And so far, you know, Trump hasn't

1172
01:01:39,160 --> 01:01:42,560
Speaker 2: seemed interested in doing that. I mean, he's busy waging

1173
01:01:42,600 --> 01:01:44,920
Speaker 2: war in Iran, I guess. But also I think that

1174
01:01:45,040 --> 01:01:48,400
Speaker 2: you know, his strategists understand that this is a deep

1175
01:01:48,480 --> 01:01:53,400
Speaker 2: liability for Republicans, and so I think what you're seeing

1176
01:01:53,440 --> 01:01:55,040
Speaker 2: is that people are sort of rising up to the

1177
01:01:55,160 --> 01:01:59,960
Speaker 2: challenge of this public health emergency and providing abortions where

1178
01:02:00,000 --> 01:02:03,960
Speaker 2: wherever they can. There's another slower process that's going to

1179
01:02:04,000 --> 01:02:06,120
Speaker 2: have to happen with restoring the legal rights so that

1180
01:02:06,200 --> 01:02:09,000
Speaker 2: the experience for people seeking these abortions isn't fraught with

1181
01:02:09,160 --> 01:02:11,360
Speaker 2: fear and risk as it is today in states where

1182
01:02:11,360 --> 01:02:12,200
Speaker 2: abortion is banned.

1183
01:02:13,680 --> 01:02:19,000
Speaker 1: So do you want to reveal your suspects? I mean,

1184
01:02:19,040 --> 01:02:20,680
Speaker 1: in some ways we've been talking about it, all of them,

1185
01:02:20,680 --> 01:02:22,520
Speaker 1: but we're coming to an end here. Or do we

1186
01:02:22,560 --> 01:02:23,880
Speaker 1: want to make people read it all the way to

1187
01:02:23,920 --> 01:02:24,200
Speaker 1: the end?

1188
01:02:24,400 --> 01:02:24,760
Speaker 3: Okay?

1189
01:02:24,960 --> 01:02:29,040
Speaker 2: I get the Christy spoiler alert, Chuck, and she's dead. Okay,

1190
01:02:29,040 --> 01:02:31,160
Speaker 2: thank goodness she's not here because she hated it when

1191
01:02:31,160 --> 01:02:35,840
Speaker 2: people spoiled her endings. Murder on the Orange Express spoiler alert. Okay,

1192
01:02:36,120 --> 01:02:38,520
Speaker 2: you get to the end of that book or that movie.

1193
01:02:38,520 --> 01:02:40,600
Speaker 2: If you watched it and what happens, you learned that

1194
01:02:40,640 --> 01:02:41,480
Speaker 2: they're all guilty.

1195
01:02:41,960 --> 01:02:42,720
Speaker 3: They all did it.

1196
01:02:43,240 --> 01:02:45,600
Speaker 2: And that was my experience with you know, the death

1197
01:02:45,600 --> 01:02:48,000
Speaker 2: of Rowe was death by a thousand stab wounds. It

1198
01:02:48,040 --> 01:02:51,800
Speaker 2: was death incrementally over decades. It involved people on the

1199
01:02:51,840 --> 01:02:56,000
Speaker 2: Democratic and the Republican side. It involved grassroots activists you've

1200
01:02:56,000 --> 01:02:58,600
Speaker 2: never heard of. It involved people who didn't care about

1201
01:02:58,640 --> 01:03:01,960
Speaker 2: abortion but saw political opportunity for themselves. And it involved

1202
01:03:02,000 --> 01:03:04,440
Speaker 2: diehards who thought they were the great civil rights heroes

1203
01:03:04,480 --> 01:03:06,520
Speaker 2: of their time and who believed they were earning a

1204
01:03:06,520 --> 01:03:11,120
Speaker 2: ticket to heaven by restricting abortion and you know, putting

1205
01:03:11,120 --> 01:03:15,360
Speaker 2: women through hell. And some of those suspects are pretty

1206
01:03:15,400 --> 01:03:18,280
Speaker 2: colorful characters, and I talk about them all in my book.

1207
01:03:18,640 --> 01:03:20,640
Speaker 1: No, it's an important it's look, it's a bit of

1208
01:03:20,680 --> 01:03:24,440
Speaker 1: a history book, but it's one of these. But it's

1209
01:03:24,480 --> 01:03:28,360
Speaker 1: also obviously it's still a relevant I mean, you you

1210
01:03:28,520 --> 01:03:33,640
Speaker 1: cannot deal with today's politics without understanding and in many ways,

1211
01:03:33,680 --> 01:03:37,640
Speaker 1: I I don't know this, Shet And fifty years from now,

1212
01:03:37,920 --> 01:03:41,040
Speaker 1: maybe you'll be around to see this. I doubt I

1213
01:03:41,080 --> 01:03:44,800
Speaker 1: will be, But you know, I think we are at

1214
01:03:44,800 --> 01:03:47,400
Speaker 1: the end of this movement somehow, some way, that Trump

1215
01:03:47,440 --> 01:03:52,160
Speaker 1: is sort of the dead cat bounce, and we're going

1216
01:03:52,240 --> 01:03:55,400
Speaker 1: to see an entirely different conservative movement in this country

1217
01:03:55,440 --> 01:03:59,600
Speaker 1: grow after he leaves the stage. But that may be

1218
01:03:59,880 --> 01:04:01,600
Speaker 1: my own version of TDS. So what do I know,

1219
01:04:01,760 --> 01:04:05,120
Speaker 1: but and I think that's the that's the mystery, right

1220
01:04:05,200 --> 01:04:07,360
Speaker 1: are we Are we at the beginning of something or

1221
01:04:07,400 --> 01:04:08,800
Speaker 1: at the end of something? Mm?

1222
01:04:10,400 --> 01:04:16,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm a total hope practitioner. I read a lot

1223
01:04:16,920 --> 01:04:19,520
Speaker 2: of Rebecca Soulnett. I believe in hope, So I'm gonna

1224
01:04:19,560 --> 01:04:21,480
Speaker 2: I'm going to choose to believe you there, although I

1225
01:04:21,520 --> 01:04:24,840
Speaker 2: have to say, you know, some of what is coming

1226
01:04:24,920 --> 01:04:28,280
Speaker 2: out of the extreme right fringe it's not even extreme

1227
01:04:28,680 --> 01:04:29,560
Speaker 2: fringe anymore.

1228
01:04:29,680 --> 01:04:33,960
Speaker 1: In I don't know what to fringe right exactly. Fringe

1229
01:04:34,600 --> 01:04:36,440
Speaker 1: it's in the center camera some days.

1230
01:04:36,800 --> 01:04:37,600
Speaker 3: What do you call it?

1231
01:04:37,680 --> 01:04:42,240
Speaker 2: You know, I think there there's folks now who are

1232
01:04:42,480 --> 01:04:45,680
Speaker 2: gaining way more traction in the anti abortion movement who

1233
01:04:45,920 --> 01:04:49,000
Speaker 2: think that women should get the death penalty for abortions.

1234
01:04:49,080 --> 01:04:51,640
Speaker 2: The there's a legislation being introduced. You know, this is

1235
01:04:51,680 --> 01:04:54,240
Speaker 2: gaining more traction than it did before. There are people

1236
01:04:54,280 --> 01:04:56,240
Speaker 2: who think women should not have the right to vote.

1237
01:04:56,680 --> 01:04:59,440
Speaker 2: You know, I'm profiling some of the women leaders of

1238
01:04:59,480 --> 01:05:04,000
Speaker 2: anti abor organizations who have men constantly harassing them, saying

1239
01:05:04,040 --> 01:05:05,920
Speaker 2: you shouldn't have a job, you should be at home.

1240
01:05:06,320 --> 01:05:08,680
Speaker 2: You know, this is this is coming out of the

1241
01:05:08,760 --> 01:05:12,640
Speaker 2: right wing part of this of the antibors movement.

1242
01:05:12,680 --> 01:05:14,680
Speaker 1: So well, it's been interesting to see like a Marjorie

1243
01:05:14,720 --> 01:05:19,000
Speaker 1: Taylor Green, who you knows, I don't think it's coming

1244
01:05:19,000 --> 01:05:21,760
Speaker 1: out and saying, hey, this mega movement's not very pro woman.

1245
01:05:23,560 --> 01:05:26,800
Speaker 2: That's interesting, right, It is interesting to see what choices

1246
01:05:26,840 --> 01:05:30,400
Speaker 2: women make when they look around and discover just how misogynists,

1247
01:05:30,760 --> 01:05:32,920
Speaker 2: you know, their peers are in.

1248
01:05:32,760 --> 01:05:35,440
Speaker 3: This coalition, and some of them are staying and some

1249
01:05:35,520 --> 01:05:36,240
Speaker 3: of them are leaving.

1250
01:05:37,680 --> 01:05:40,120
Speaker 1: I don't know if if a, if there isn't a

1251
01:05:40,200 --> 01:05:44,960
Speaker 1: senator named Katie Britt that IVF is protected. Yeah, yeah,

1252
01:05:45,000 --> 01:05:48,320
Speaker 1: I mean it is interesting. The women in this in

1253
01:05:48,320 --> 01:05:52,680
Speaker 1: the Republican Party, who you can tell are very are

1254
01:05:53,000 --> 01:05:58,120
Speaker 1: very They're not comfortable with the position they've been put in.

1255
01:05:58,600 --> 01:06:00,280
Speaker 1: M h. Look, they made the choice, so I'm not

1256
01:06:00,320 --> 01:06:02,760
Speaker 1: going to say, but you can feel that discomfort.

1257
01:06:03,480 --> 01:06:06,800
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I mean it's interesting. You mentioned Kansas.

1258
01:06:06,920 --> 01:06:09,080
Speaker 2: You know, this was the first state to vote directly

1259
01:06:09,240 --> 01:06:11,960
Speaker 2: on abortion after the Dobbs decision in twenty twenty two.

1260
01:06:11,960 --> 01:06:13,760
Speaker 2: And I was on the ground there going door to

1261
01:06:13,800 --> 01:06:16,320
Speaker 2: door with some of the door knockers, and there were

1262
01:06:16,360 --> 01:06:19,160
Speaker 2: people who came to the door who were women who

1263
01:06:19,160 --> 01:06:23,400
Speaker 2: were registered Republicans who were like, yeah, I'm really worried

1264
01:06:23,440 --> 01:06:26,680
Speaker 2: about this because my IVF, And I told my mom,

1265
01:06:27,120 --> 01:06:29,560
Speaker 2: you know you better, you know, you better vote the

1266
01:06:29,600 --> 01:06:32,320
Speaker 2: right way on this because my IVF. You know again,

1267
01:06:32,360 --> 01:06:34,080
Speaker 2: this is what happens when you come for an issue

1268
01:06:34,120 --> 01:06:39,640
Speaker 2: that's central to people's decision making and autonomy, well, create coalitions.

1269
01:06:39,880 --> 01:06:44,560
Speaker 1: You know. Technology. I always thought technology helped the anti

1270
01:06:44,560 --> 01:06:48,720
Speaker 1: abortion rights community when you could see that heartbeat, so

1271
01:06:48,800 --> 01:06:51,280
Speaker 1: we're like right, and that allowed them to make the

1272
01:06:51,320 --> 01:06:54,600
Speaker 1: weak designation and keep moving it up, moving it up.

1273
01:06:56,120 --> 01:06:59,520
Speaker 1: Is there technology that benefits the right side of this

1274
01:06:59,560 --> 01:07:00,720
Speaker 1: as we can going forward?

1275
01:07:03,040 --> 01:07:06,560
Speaker 2: Social media seems to be helping the abortion rights move

1276
01:07:06,600 --> 01:07:08,440
Speaker 2: and get their word out. I mean a lot of

1277
01:07:08,480 --> 01:07:12,600
Speaker 2: young people are out there, you know, sharing their abortion stories.

1278
01:07:12,720 --> 01:07:15,919
Speaker 2: I mean, you know, people sharing their personal experiences, whether

1279
01:07:15,960 --> 01:07:19,200
Speaker 2: it's on TikTok or Instagram or you know, breaking this

1280
01:07:19,360 --> 01:07:22,760
Speaker 2: down saying like, hey, you know, I think a huge

1281
01:07:22,760 --> 01:07:25,760
Speaker 2: part of the way the anti abortion movement one is

1282
01:07:25,840 --> 01:07:30,640
Speaker 2: through creating this impression that abortion is this deeply divisive,

1283
01:07:30,800 --> 01:07:32,960
Speaker 2: deeply shameful, deeply stigmatized stigma.

1284
01:07:33,560 --> 01:07:35,280
Speaker 1: They stigmatized it, yes.

1285
01:07:35,360 --> 01:07:37,760
Speaker 2: Exactly, and that was one of the main triumphs of

1286
01:07:37,800 --> 01:07:40,360
Speaker 2: Operation Rescue. I think if you're blockading clinics, if you

1287
01:07:40,400 --> 01:07:42,439
Speaker 2: have hundreds of people getting arrested in the parking lot,

1288
01:07:42,440 --> 01:07:45,520
Speaker 2: it sends this this impression that this is a battleground,

1289
01:07:45,520 --> 01:07:47,800
Speaker 2: even though when you look at the polls, it's like, oh,

1290
01:07:48,000 --> 01:07:50,600
Speaker 2: most people seem to actually support this issue and think

1291
01:07:50,640 --> 01:07:51,680
Speaker 2: that the status quo is.

1292
01:07:52,120 --> 01:07:53,320
Speaker 3: Probably fine, you know.

1293
01:07:55,040 --> 01:07:58,800
Speaker 2: And so you know, I think people sharing their stories,

1294
01:07:58,800 --> 01:08:01,880
Speaker 2: people talking about this is you in a way that

1295
01:08:02,040 --> 01:08:05,720
Speaker 2: you know, I haven't coming up with Beccaraya Tucker, the

1296
01:08:05,720 --> 01:08:08,000
Speaker 2: Sweet Feminists, and her thing is like she she's on

1297
01:08:08,040 --> 01:08:11,760
Speaker 2: social media and she makes these cakes and then she

1298
01:08:11,800 --> 01:08:15,120
Speaker 2: writes like throw abortion rights slogans on the cakes, you know,

1299
01:08:15,160 --> 01:08:17,240
Speaker 2: and shares them on social media. I mean, hey, that's

1300
01:08:17,240 --> 01:08:21,120
Speaker 2: the use of technology to spread a pro abortion rights message.

1301
01:08:21,640 --> 01:08:25,120
Speaker 1: Well, it's like I said, your book is well timed,

1302
01:08:25,120 --> 01:08:27,880
Speaker 1: just simply by the number of questions I've been getting

1303
01:08:27,880 --> 01:08:30,439
Speaker 1: about the campaign trail and where is this issue and

1304
01:08:30,560 --> 01:08:33,280
Speaker 1: where should it be? And we know the Democrats are

1305
01:08:33,280 --> 01:08:36,719
Speaker 1: wringing their hands about culture issues and all sorts of things.

1306
01:08:36,720 --> 01:08:39,320
Speaker 1: Oh they're losing the manisphere, should they? You know? Not

1307
01:08:39,439 --> 01:08:43,000
Speaker 1: this or that. But I have a feeling this your

1308
01:08:43,040 --> 01:08:44,760
Speaker 1: book's going to get more traction and people are going

1309
01:08:44,800 --> 01:08:47,559
Speaker 1: to say, oh, that's right. People care about this issue.

1310
01:08:48,000 --> 01:08:50,679
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, people care about this issue because it affects

1311
01:08:50,680 --> 01:08:54,320
Speaker 2: the shape of their lives, men and women, and because

1312
01:08:54,400 --> 01:08:56,679
Speaker 2: lives are at stake, because women's lives are at stake.

1313
01:08:56,880 --> 01:08:59,960
Speaker 2: And I hope that we remember those stories. I know

1314
01:09:00,120 --> 01:09:02,240
Speaker 2: that people do, and I know that, you know, true

1315
01:09:02,280 --> 01:09:04,400
Speaker 2: believers on the right side of history are keeping those

1316
01:09:04,400 --> 01:09:07,200
Speaker 2: stories alive and keeping them in front of mind, even

1317
01:09:07,240 --> 01:09:09,080
Speaker 2: if people seem to think voters have forgotten.

1318
01:09:10,280 --> 01:09:13,639
Speaker 1: Well, Amy, pack up a bunch of bagif that. Christine

1319
01:09:13,640 --> 01:09:16,160
Speaker 1: novels for your book, doer right, so you can, you know,

1320
01:09:16,760 --> 01:09:18,479
Speaker 1: have some you know, have some reading to do in

1321
01:09:18,520 --> 01:09:19,120
Speaker 1: your downtown.

1322
01:09:19,840 --> 01:09:21,559
Speaker 3: You know, I will. I think I'll go read one

1323
01:09:21,640 --> 01:09:22,000
Speaker 3: right now.

1324
01:09:23,280 --> 01:09:26,120
Speaker 1: Congrats of the book. It's like I said, you took

1325
01:09:26,160 --> 01:09:28,880
Speaker 1: a topic that I'm not gonna lie to you. I

1326
01:09:28,960 --> 01:09:32,639
Speaker 1: know it well, I've you know, if you cover American

1327
01:09:32,640 --> 01:09:35,519
Speaker 1: politics over the last thirty years and you aren't familiar,

1328
01:09:35,880 --> 01:09:40,040
Speaker 1: you're doing yourself into service. It's it's so woven in

1329
01:09:40,160 --> 01:09:44,320
Speaker 1: to campaign tactics and why messaging sounds what it does,

1330
01:09:44,360 --> 01:09:46,960
Speaker 1: and all of these things, and so many interest groups

1331
01:09:47,000 --> 01:09:51,040
Speaker 1: that literally exist solely because of this issue. And so

1332
01:09:51,439 --> 01:09:53,800
Speaker 1: if you're not as well versed in this, I highly

1333
01:09:53,840 --> 01:09:56,439
Speaker 1: recommend this book because you do a terrific job of

1334
01:09:56,479 --> 01:10:00,200
Speaker 1: making the history also digestible. As we all we know

1335
01:10:00,320 --> 01:10:03,519
Speaker 1: we have the attention economy coming for us all the time.

1336
01:10:04,080 --> 01:10:06,240
Speaker 1: You know, I'm sure you'll have a TikTok version of

1337
01:10:06,280 --> 01:10:10,040
Speaker 1: your books soon, but in the meantime, good old fashioned reading.

1338
01:10:10,040 --> 01:10:11,040
Speaker 1: There's nothing wrong with it.

1339
01:10:12,320 --> 01:10:14,840
Speaker 3: Thank you so much for saying that you got it.