1 00:00:00,200 --> 00:00:08,080 Speaker 1: Family Secrets is a production of I Heart Radio. How 2 00:00:08,119 --> 00:00:11,680 Speaker 1: long have you known you were gay? She asked? Since 3 00:00:11,720 --> 00:00:14,920 Speaker 1: I was a child, then why didn't you come out? 4 00:00:14,960 --> 00:00:19,000 Speaker 1: Then the world was a different place. Being gay wasn't 5 00:00:19,000 --> 00:00:22,560 Speaker 1: an option, I said, But why did you wait so long? 6 00:00:24,079 --> 00:00:27,160 Speaker 1: Why did I wait so long? Why Because I made 7 00:00:27,200 --> 00:00:30,159 Speaker 1: a promise to never be like my father, Because my 8 00:00:30,240 --> 00:00:32,880 Speaker 1: mother sucked me up every single day by saying being 9 00:00:32,880 --> 00:00:35,720 Speaker 1: gay was disgusting and that I would never be happy. 10 00:00:36,360 --> 00:00:39,360 Speaker 1: Because I thought being gay was disgusting, and if I 11 00:00:39,440 --> 00:00:42,479 Speaker 1: was gay, then I was disgusting. Because I thought I 12 00:00:42,520 --> 00:00:45,599 Speaker 1: would go to hell, because religion sucked me over by 13 00:00:45,640 --> 00:00:49,440 Speaker 1: telling me my feelings were sinful. Because I was broken, 14 00:00:50,400 --> 00:00:53,880 Speaker 1: because I couldn't look at your sweet face and say sorry, 15 00:00:54,320 --> 00:00:56,520 Speaker 1: Daddy can't live with you anymore, because he wants to 16 00:00:56,560 --> 00:00:59,640 Speaker 1: have sex with men. Because I thought your mother would 17 00:00:59,720 --> 00:01:02,520 Speaker 1: kill her self. I lied for so long that I 18 00:01:02,600 --> 00:01:06,240 Speaker 1: didn't know how to stop. I created an entire world, 19 00:01:07,080 --> 00:01:13,720 Speaker 1: and how could I stop that from spending? That's William 20 00:01:13,800 --> 00:01:18,240 Speaker 1: Dameron reading from The Lie, a memoir of two marriages, 21 00:01:18,440 --> 00:01:22,240 Speaker 1: cat fishing and coming out. Bill's story is about a 22 00:01:22,240 --> 00:01:24,800 Speaker 1: secret he did his best to keep from himself from 23 00:01:24,880 --> 00:01:28,280 Speaker 1: most of his life. But as we all know, secrets 24 00:01:28,319 --> 00:01:31,919 Speaker 1: don't like to sit quietly in corners. They don't appreciate 25 00:01:32,000 --> 00:01:36,479 Speaker 1: being stuffed down in the silence. They grow until they 26 00:01:36,520 --> 00:01:51,760 Speaker 1: can be contained no longer. I'm Danny Shapiro, and this 27 00:01:51,920 --> 00:01:54,920 Speaker 1: is family secrets, the secrets that are kept from us, 28 00:01:55,280 --> 00:01:58,120 Speaker 1: the secrets we keep from others, and the secrets we 29 00:01:58,240 --> 00:02:03,880 Speaker 1: keep from ourselves. I like to begin by asking you 30 00:02:03,960 --> 00:02:07,560 Speaker 1: to describe the landscape of your childhood, where you grew up, 31 00:02:08,240 --> 00:02:10,560 Speaker 1: the family you grew up in, what it was like 32 00:02:10,720 --> 00:02:17,440 Speaker 1: for you. I was born in nine in Greensboro, North Carolina. 33 00:02:18,440 --> 00:02:21,560 Speaker 1: It was very a southern town, very provincial. I think 34 00:02:21,639 --> 00:02:26,360 Speaker 1: social Moray's and religion played very big in our family. 35 00:02:26,520 --> 00:02:29,840 Speaker 1: My mother was Catholic, and um, she stayed at home. 36 00:02:30,360 --> 00:02:33,560 Speaker 1: My father was an attorney. I had three brothers. I 37 00:02:33,600 --> 00:02:37,120 Speaker 1: was a second born, so it was a family that 38 00:02:37,320 --> 00:02:40,280 Speaker 1: was very much a part of the social fabric. My 39 00:02:40,320 --> 00:02:42,919 Speaker 1: mother was a part of the junior league. We were 40 00:02:42,960 --> 00:02:45,920 Speaker 1: all into sports. I was not into basketball, but I 41 00:02:46,000 --> 00:02:48,639 Speaker 1: was a swimmer, so, um, it was all sort of 42 00:02:48,680 --> 00:02:53,640 Speaker 1: about being that good citizen. I think tell me a 43 00:02:53,639 --> 00:02:56,120 Speaker 1: bit about your like, your inner life, as a child, 44 00:02:56,480 --> 00:03:02,880 Speaker 1: this boy growing up in Greensboro. I was the second point, 45 00:03:02,919 --> 00:03:06,280 Speaker 1: as I said, um, three years behind my older brother. Uh. 46 00:03:06,320 --> 00:03:09,320 Speaker 1: And I always looked up to him. And he was 47 00:03:09,440 --> 00:03:13,320 Speaker 1: the basketball star. He was, um, the kid who did 48 00:03:13,360 --> 00:03:15,880 Speaker 1: so well and and and that was sort of my 49 00:03:16,040 --> 00:03:19,160 Speaker 1: childhood is trying to look up to my older brother. 50 00:03:19,320 --> 00:03:23,080 Speaker 1: And and I specifically sort of remember him sitting on 51 00:03:23,320 --> 00:03:27,440 Speaker 1: the corner with him and he said, you know, all 52 00:03:27,480 --> 00:03:30,880 Speaker 1: I want in life is two cars a house in 53 00:03:30,880 --> 00:03:36,240 Speaker 1: the suburbs, two point three kids. I knew I was different, Um, 54 00:03:36,280 --> 00:03:39,360 Speaker 1: but I knew the dream or the desires and thoughts 55 00:03:39,440 --> 00:03:43,080 Speaker 1: that I had couldn't be the same. I couldn't give 56 00:03:43,160 --> 00:03:46,320 Speaker 1: voice to what those were. So I sort of adopted 57 00:03:46,680 --> 00:03:51,000 Speaker 1: his dream is my dream. I went to a Catholic school, Um, 58 00:03:51,080 --> 00:03:55,680 Speaker 1: we all did. We attended church every Sunday. Was very important. 59 00:03:56,160 --> 00:03:59,320 Speaker 1: I remember once our car ran out of gas on 60 00:03:59,360 --> 00:04:02,160 Speaker 1: the way to church, and instead of stopping to get gasps, 61 00:04:02,240 --> 00:04:04,240 Speaker 1: we walked to the rest of the way to church. 62 00:04:04,960 --> 00:04:06,760 Speaker 1: So that was kind of an important part of our 63 00:04:06,800 --> 00:04:11,640 Speaker 1: lives well. And so interesting. The idea of being quote 64 00:04:11,720 --> 00:04:17,960 Speaker 1: unquote normal, being average, being like everybody else, that being um, 65 00:04:18,000 --> 00:04:20,320 Speaker 1: that being a goal, that being something to aspire to. 66 00:04:21,279 --> 00:04:24,280 Speaker 1: It was it was a goal to be like all 67 00:04:24,320 --> 00:04:27,039 Speaker 1: the other kids. And it's funny when you're a kid, 68 00:04:27,560 --> 00:04:29,640 Speaker 1: you know how the other kids are, but also you 69 00:04:29,680 --> 00:04:33,080 Speaker 1: don't really know what their secret thoughts and desires are. 70 00:04:33,520 --> 00:04:36,680 Speaker 1: So as a child, you don't really know that until 71 00:04:36,960 --> 00:04:39,479 Speaker 1: you learn it, or you say something out of character 72 00:04:40,080 --> 00:04:44,880 Speaker 1: and then quickly something said, oh, that's not what I'm 73 00:04:44,880 --> 00:04:48,400 Speaker 1: supposed to say or be like. I remember playing with 74 00:04:48,440 --> 00:04:51,640 Speaker 1: some neighborhood kids. The rest of them were playing football 75 00:04:51,640 --> 00:04:54,440 Speaker 1: in the backyard, and there were two other boys that 76 00:04:54,560 --> 00:04:57,360 Speaker 1: had a football, and we were being kind of silly 77 00:04:57,520 --> 00:05:00,760 Speaker 1: and and walking to football down the driveway and sort 78 00:05:00,760 --> 00:05:03,200 Speaker 1: of dancing behind it. And I remember one of the 79 00:05:03,200 --> 00:05:06,279 Speaker 1: mothers saying, y'all are acting like a bunch of girls. 80 00:05:08,320 --> 00:05:10,760 Speaker 1: That kind of stuff stays with you, doesn't it. It does. 81 00:05:12,360 --> 00:05:16,160 Speaker 1: It's so interesting to just generally the nature of childhood, 82 00:05:16,200 --> 00:05:22,039 Speaker 1: because no kid wants to be different, and yet every kid, 83 00:05:22,279 --> 00:05:26,239 Speaker 1: every child has an inner life. Um, but the idea 84 00:05:26,320 --> 00:05:30,800 Speaker 1: of sharing that inner life is too scary. It doesn't happen, 85 00:05:30,960 --> 00:05:34,919 Speaker 1: and so there's that feeling of um. Nobody else feels 86 00:05:34,960 --> 00:05:37,600 Speaker 1: the way I do, which is of course where literature 87 00:05:37,640 --> 00:05:41,920 Speaker 1: comes in, because then when we read, we discover that 88 00:05:42,520 --> 00:05:44,720 Speaker 1: there are these characters who feel just like we do 89 00:05:44,760 --> 00:05:47,200 Speaker 1: and have in our lives that are so similar to ours. 90 00:05:47,240 --> 00:05:50,040 Speaker 1: But there's such an isolating feeling. I think that is 91 00:05:50,320 --> 00:05:55,039 Speaker 1: universal in childhood, but more so when there's something within 92 00:05:55,120 --> 00:05:59,320 Speaker 1: you where you really do feel like you're different from 93 00:05:59,440 --> 00:06:02,480 Speaker 1: the large your group that's trying to be quote unquote 94 00:06:02,520 --> 00:06:06,479 Speaker 1: normal average. Tell me a little bit about your mother. 95 00:06:09,520 --> 00:06:12,880 Speaker 1: I can see looking back now that she really wanted 96 00:06:12,920 --> 00:06:15,320 Speaker 1: the best for all of us. She wanted us to 97 00:06:15,440 --> 00:06:19,640 Speaker 1: excel at everything that we did, whether that was jobs 98 00:06:19,800 --> 00:06:23,239 Speaker 1: or sports um or for me, I played the piano 99 00:06:23,320 --> 00:06:26,680 Speaker 1: as well. So it was really important to her that 100 00:06:26,760 --> 00:06:31,000 Speaker 1: we presented our best image um to our family and 101 00:06:31,080 --> 00:06:35,039 Speaker 1: friends and society, and there was sort of one image 102 00:06:35,080 --> 00:06:39,400 Speaker 1: to portray that that was the best. In the sixties 103 00:06:39,400 --> 00:06:42,719 Speaker 1: and seventies, there was no internet, so there was no 104 00:06:43,480 --> 00:06:47,080 Speaker 1: sort of way of finding different people or connecting to 105 00:06:47,120 --> 00:06:50,040 Speaker 1: other people. You only knew what was happening in the 106 00:06:50,080 --> 00:06:52,880 Speaker 1: town that you were in, in that small radius, and 107 00:06:52,960 --> 00:06:56,159 Speaker 1: my mother was very much that way. Tell me a 108 00:06:56,160 --> 00:07:00,600 Speaker 1: bit about your dad. My father was an attorney UM, 109 00:07:00,600 --> 00:07:03,480 Speaker 1: and he was a litigator, so I think he used 110 00:07:03,520 --> 00:07:06,760 Speaker 1: up all his words during the day in court. When 111 00:07:06,800 --> 00:07:09,559 Speaker 1: he came home, he was a man of very few words. Uh. 112 00:07:09,560 --> 00:07:12,400 Speaker 1: He came home, dinner was on the table. We did 113 00:07:12,440 --> 00:07:14,800 Speaker 1: have one sort of fun thing when he came home. 114 00:07:14,880 --> 00:07:18,040 Speaker 1: Sometimes he would have chewing gum in his pocket. We 115 00:07:18,080 --> 00:07:19,880 Speaker 1: would all sort of punch each other and run to 116 00:07:20,000 --> 00:07:21,680 Speaker 1: the door to be the first one there to grab 117 00:07:21,680 --> 00:07:24,160 Speaker 1: the chewing gum out of his pocket. But then we 118 00:07:24,160 --> 00:07:26,120 Speaker 1: would sit down at the table. My mother would have 119 00:07:26,200 --> 00:07:31,320 Speaker 1: dinner ready. He would drink down scotch very quickly. He 120 00:07:31,360 --> 00:07:34,560 Speaker 1: would eat his food in a minute or two. And 121 00:07:34,640 --> 00:07:40,080 Speaker 1: so there were very few really words spoken between us. 122 00:07:40,360 --> 00:07:43,400 Speaker 1: And when I look back, I sort of see that 123 00:07:43,480 --> 00:07:45,640 Speaker 1: he was. He was missing a lot of the time. 124 00:07:45,760 --> 00:07:49,440 Speaker 1: Even before he left us, he was sort of not there. 125 00:07:50,160 --> 00:07:53,320 Speaker 1: Did you feel like you knew him? No, I don't 126 00:07:53,320 --> 00:07:57,280 Speaker 1: think I ever really knew exactly who he was. Looking back, 127 00:07:57,480 --> 00:08:01,000 Speaker 1: I know now who he is. He had a difficult 128 00:08:01,080 --> 00:08:03,080 Speaker 1: childhood as well. He was an only child and his 129 00:08:03,120 --> 00:08:06,240 Speaker 1: mother was an alcoholic um so he was sent to 130 00:08:06,280 --> 00:08:10,480 Speaker 1: live with his grandparents in Fletcher, North Carolina for a 131 00:08:10,480 --> 00:08:13,760 Speaker 1: while while his mother recovered. So as an adult, I 132 00:08:13,840 --> 00:08:17,720 Speaker 1: understand that as a kid, I didn't was in this 133 00:08:17,840 --> 00:08:22,040 Speaker 1: image conscious childhood in this traditional Southern family. There was 134 00:08:22,080 --> 00:08:26,120 Speaker 1: also the matter of the body, as in Bill's body. 135 00:08:27,280 --> 00:08:29,440 Speaker 1: I think our bodies are for many of us, a 136 00:08:29,440 --> 00:08:33,560 Speaker 1: source of embarrassment or shame. There's just something so messy, 137 00:08:33,800 --> 00:08:38,400 Speaker 1: so exposed, so physical about our bodies. This shame came 138 00:08:38,400 --> 00:08:41,800 Speaker 1: into play in Bill's early life. I was a swimmer 139 00:08:42,080 --> 00:08:45,240 Speaker 1: for most of my childhood. My brothers and I were 140 00:08:45,240 --> 00:08:48,800 Speaker 1: all painfully skinny. We just could not seem to gain weight. 141 00:08:48,920 --> 00:08:52,680 Speaker 1: And as as a boy, you don't want to be skinny, 142 00:08:54,679 --> 00:08:58,400 Speaker 1: and also too, it's sort of portrayed this weakness on 143 00:08:58,440 --> 00:09:02,680 Speaker 1: the outside that I felt the inside. And I remember 144 00:09:02,840 --> 00:09:05,960 Speaker 1: swimming at the City swim Me getting out, my mother's 145 00:09:06,000 --> 00:09:09,080 Speaker 1: sitting in the stands, and I go up and sit 146 00:09:09,480 --> 00:09:12,400 Speaker 1: next to her on the bleachers, and I remember her 147 00:09:12,440 --> 00:09:17,200 Speaker 1: comment was, you're so damn skinny. You need to press 148 00:09:17,240 --> 00:09:21,319 Speaker 1: weights like those other boys. Um so, so there was 149 00:09:21,360 --> 00:09:24,840 Speaker 1: no there wasn't really a comment about, wow, you did 150 00:09:24,880 --> 00:09:29,040 Speaker 1: a great job, you know, swimming. It cemented that feeling 151 00:09:29,200 --> 00:09:32,720 Speaker 1: that there was something wrong with me, not only inside, 152 00:09:32,720 --> 00:09:36,679 Speaker 1: but on the outside. You internalized that I did, and 153 00:09:36,679 --> 00:09:39,080 Speaker 1: then you, and you carried it with you. I did 154 00:09:39,120 --> 00:09:42,360 Speaker 1: carry it with me. I think when you have something 155 00:09:42,440 --> 00:09:45,000 Speaker 1: you consider ugly on the inside, that's all you can 156 00:09:45,040 --> 00:09:47,360 Speaker 1: see on the outside. When I looked in the mirror, 157 00:09:47,400 --> 00:09:51,800 Speaker 1: I just saw all of the flaws. What Bill considered 158 00:09:51,880 --> 00:09:56,680 Speaker 1: ugly on the inside was the awareness, not necessarily conscious knowledge, 159 00:09:57,040 --> 00:10:01,480 Speaker 1: but something else, something thrumming deep in his interior that 160 00:10:01,559 --> 00:10:05,679 Speaker 1: he wasn't attracted to girls. He felt something for boys, 161 00:10:05,720 --> 00:10:09,480 Speaker 1: something he knew he wasn't supposed to feel. I was 162 00:10:09,520 --> 00:10:13,360 Speaker 1: in college for two years at a piano performance major. 163 00:10:13,960 --> 00:10:17,000 Speaker 1: I had an opportunity to have a summer job with 164 00:10:17,040 --> 00:10:20,800 Speaker 1: my aunt, who lived in Denver, Colorado. She knew a 165 00:10:20,840 --> 00:10:24,080 Speaker 1: couple who owned the Lost gold Mine. It was a 166 00:10:24,080 --> 00:10:26,880 Speaker 1: gold mine where you could take tours through and I 167 00:10:26,880 --> 00:10:29,640 Speaker 1: would live with her. I remember my mother sitting me 168 00:10:29,720 --> 00:10:32,360 Speaker 1: down in the living room. She was a nurse, so 169 00:10:32,440 --> 00:10:35,000 Speaker 1: she was wearing her starched nursing whites, and she sat 170 00:10:35,040 --> 00:10:37,600 Speaker 1: down and said, okay, Bill, I want you to know 171 00:10:37,679 --> 00:10:40,880 Speaker 1: that your aunt is and she lowered her voice a 172 00:10:40,960 --> 00:10:44,079 Speaker 1: lesbian because you couldn't say that out loud. It was 173 00:10:44,120 --> 00:10:47,080 Speaker 1: almost like it was a curse word. And she said 174 00:10:47,120 --> 00:10:48,880 Speaker 1: to me, I want you to promise that you won't 175 00:10:48,960 --> 00:10:53,959 Speaker 1: let Sheila change you. I is that okay? And I'm 176 00:10:53,960 --> 00:10:56,240 Speaker 1: still not quite certain why she let me live with her. 177 00:10:56,320 --> 00:10:58,439 Speaker 1: If she was so afraid, she must have had some 178 00:10:58,559 --> 00:11:02,040 Speaker 1: sense of of who her son was. But she still 179 00:11:02,120 --> 00:11:05,720 Speaker 1: let me live with her for that summer. So two questions. 180 00:11:05,720 --> 00:11:07,880 Speaker 1: One is you you had a consciousness that you were 181 00:11:07,920 --> 00:11:11,000 Speaker 1: gay at that point? Yeah? Did you have language for it? 182 00:11:11,559 --> 00:11:14,400 Speaker 1: I didn't have language for it. You're exactly right. I 183 00:11:14,400 --> 00:11:16,679 Speaker 1: I could not say in my head that I'm gay, 184 00:11:16,840 --> 00:11:20,199 Speaker 1: and I never did. It just wasn't how I identified 185 00:11:20,240 --> 00:11:23,240 Speaker 1: and it wasn't an option. I knew it wasn't an option, 186 00:11:23,320 --> 00:11:28,800 Speaker 1: but I knew I had these thoughts and desires. So 187 00:11:28,960 --> 00:11:31,400 Speaker 1: I lived with my aunt for the summer. The Lost 188 00:11:31,440 --> 00:11:34,000 Speaker 1: gold Mine was owned by a couple of gay guys, 189 00:11:34,679 --> 00:11:37,800 Speaker 1: and it was a great summer. She eventually took me 190 00:11:37,880 --> 00:11:41,400 Speaker 1: to my first gay bar in Central City, of all places, 191 00:11:41,440 --> 00:11:45,959 Speaker 1: which is such a conservative passion. So we went into 192 00:11:46,040 --> 00:11:49,880 Speaker 1: the bar. I met a friend of hers don who 193 00:11:49,960 --> 00:11:54,120 Speaker 1: was twenty three. I was nineteen. I had a few drinks. 194 00:11:55,120 --> 00:11:59,640 Speaker 1: We walked out to the parking lot, and it was 195 00:11:59,679 --> 00:12:03,640 Speaker 1: the first time I kissed a man, and it was 196 00:12:03,720 --> 00:12:08,040 Speaker 1: the most amazing feeling. It was right and it was wrong, 197 00:12:08,640 --> 00:12:13,719 Speaker 1: and I knew that could never happen again. So now 198 00:12:13,760 --> 00:12:16,880 Speaker 1: you're twenty and you're back from your summer. Yes, And 199 00:12:16,960 --> 00:12:19,200 Speaker 1: as a matter of fact, that summer too, I remember 200 00:12:19,240 --> 00:12:22,640 Speaker 1: I um got a gym membership in Denver, and I 201 00:12:22,640 --> 00:12:24,199 Speaker 1: went to the gym as well, so I was a 202 00:12:24,200 --> 00:12:26,800 Speaker 1: little more fleshed out too, And so I was actually 203 00:12:26,840 --> 00:12:31,040 Speaker 1: feeling good about myself for sort of the first time. 204 00:12:31,480 --> 00:12:34,560 Speaker 1: And it felt good to have, you know, two or 205 00:12:34,559 --> 00:12:37,520 Speaker 1: three months of just being myself. But I came back 206 00:12:37,559 --> 00:12:40,120 Speaker 1: to North Carolina and I knew I had to tell 207 00:12:40,160 --> 00:12:42,480 Speaker 1: my mother. I knew I had to let her know that, 208 00:12:43,280 --> 00:12:45,240 Speaker 1: you know, the things that she said and the things 209 00:12:45,280 --> 00:12:48,679 Speaker 1: that I heard about gay people were wrong. I still 210 00:12:49,360 --> 00:12:52,800 Speaker 1: was not strong enough to say, Mom, I'm gay. What 211 00:12:52,960 --> 00:12:56,920 Speaker 1: I said was, you know, Mom, the love that Sheila 212 00:12:57,000 --> 00:12:59,320 Speaker 1: has for her girlfriend and the love that these other 213 00:12:59,360 --> 00:13:05,079 Speaker 1: people have, it's the same. And she was immediately incensed 214 00:13:05,080 --> 00:13:08,439 Speaker 1: and said, no, it's not that's disgusting. It's it's not 215 00:13:09,720 --> 00:13:14,400 Speaker 1: were her views informed primarily by her Catholicism, or by 216 00:13:14,480 --> 00:13:17,200 Speaker 1: community and culture, or all of the above, all of 217 00:13:17,240 --> 00:13:20,840 Speaker 1: the above. Yeah, I have actually spoke, you know, talked 218 00:13:20,920 --> 00:13:24,840 Speaker 1: to her, interrogated her a bit, since it was taboo, 219 00:13:25,000 --> 00:13:27,400 Speaker 1: That's what she told me. It was taboo, and I 220 00:13:27,480 --> 00:13:31,040 Speaker 1: didn't want you to experience that pain. You know, the 221 00:13:31,080 --> 00:13:34,520 Speaker 1: world would never alter, so I had to. So, now 222 00:13:34,559 --> 00:13:37,079 Speaker 1: you're back from your summer and you're feeling pretty good 223 00:13:37,080 --> 00:13:39,920 Speaker 1: about yourself. You've you've been able to be yourself for 224 00:13:39,960 --> 00:13:45,880 Speaker 1: three home months. What happens next? I was thrown right 225 00:13:45,880 --> 00:13:50,480 Speaker 1: back into this was so, I was thrown right back 226 00:13:50,520 --> 00:13:56,640 Speaker 1: into society in North Carolina. When you escape hundred miles 227 00:13:56,640 --> 00:13:59,520 Speaker 1: away from home, you fill this freedom. But when you 228 00:13:59,600 --> 00:14:05,080 Speaker 1: come act, it's sort of like the humidity of southern summer. 229 00:14:05,120 --> 00:14:08,559 Speaker 1: It's oppressive and you start to feel it and there's 230 00:14:08,679 --> 00:14:11,120 Speaker 1: your church again, and there's all the people you know. 231 00:14:11,800 --> 00:14:16,000 Speaker 1: And here was my mother saying this is wrong, this 232 00:14:16,080 --> 00:14:19,280 Speaker 1: is disgusting. You're never going to be happy. And it 233 00:14:19,360 --> 00:14:22,080 Speaker 1: wasn't just a one time thing. It was sort of Okay, 234 00:14:22,160 --> 00:14:25,240 Speaker 1: let's talk about this. As I came home from school 235 00:14:25,240 --> 00:14:27,880 Speaker 1: every day, do you want to talk to the priest 236 00:14:28,000 --> 00:14:30,800 Speaker 1: because the priest can help you. Do you want to 237 00:14:30,800 --> 00:14:34,720 Speaker 1: be a woman to My mother asked me, um, and 238 00:14:34,840 --> 00:14:38,240 Speaker 1: I just it was immediate. It was like, okay, this, 239 00:14:38,240 --> 00:14:41,960 Speaker 1: this is wrong, this is not good. Also, at the 240 00:14:42,000 --> 00:14:46,840 Speaker 1: same time, the AIDS epidemic had become national. It was 241 00:14:46,960 --> 00:14:50,200 Speaker 1: hidden for so long. I remember my aunt telling me 242 00:14:50,280 --> 00:14:53,000 Speaker 1: don't do poppers because they thought that's what caused it. 243 00:14:53,120 --> 00:14:56,040 Speaker 1: There was, you know, nobody really knew. But suddenly was 244 00:14:56,080 --> 00:14:59,080 Speaker 1: on the news and men were wasting away and here 245 00:14:59,240 --> 00:15:03,800 Speaker 1: was my body dysmorphia coming again. Okay, this is gay. 246 00:15:04,200 --> 00:15:08,240 Speaker 1: People are getting skinny and wasting away. And and so 247 00:15:08,320 --> 00:15:11,080 Speaker 1: it was the combination of all that guilt and shame 248 00:15:11,760 --> 00:15:14,280 Speaker 1: and being back that sort of drove me back into 249 00:15:14,360 --> 00:15:18,800 Speaker 1: the closet. We're going to take a quick break. We'll 250 00:15:18,840 --> 00:15:34,520 Speaker 1: be back in a moment. So Bill returned to the norm, 251 00:15:34,560 --> 00:15:37,840 Speaker 1: you know, wife, two point three kids, white picket fence. 252 00:15:38,640 --> 00:15:41,800 Speaker 1: In the South. In those days, people married young and 253 00:15:41,920 --> 00:15:45,160 Speaker 1: got on with it. His brother, his friends, they were 254 00:15:45,200 --> 00:15:48,800 Speaker 1: all getting married. He meets Catherine, the friend of a friend, 255 00:15:49,280 --> 00:15:52,440 Speaker 1: and he's drawn to her. She seems like a kindred 256 00:15:52,480 --> 00:15:56,840 Speaker 1: spirit to him. First time I met Catherine, there was 257 00:15:56,920 --> 00:15:59,560 Speaker 1: something I saw in her eyes. It was this this 258 00:15:59,640 --> 00:16:03,520 Speaker 1: look vulnerability. I can remember it so specifically, looking at 259 00:16:03,560 --> 00:16:07,440 Speaker 1: it and seeing something there that I connected with, and 260 00:16:07,520 --> 00:16:09,320 Speaker 1: I think it was the same thing I saw in 261 00:16:09,440 --> 00:16:13,200 Speaker 1: my eyes. She was adopted, and I've heard that adopted 262 00:16:13,320 --> 00:16:16,960 Speaker 1: kids often find each other because there's something about them 263 00:16:17,000 --> 00:16:19,960 Speaker 1: that connects them. I wasn't adopted, but it was feeling 264 00:16:19,960 --> 00:16:22,800 Speaker 1: like it didn't have parents, and so I think, you know, 265 00:16:22,880 --> 00:16:25,840 Speaker 1: we really connected on that level. It was our our 266 00:16:25,880 --> 00:16:30,040 Speaker 1: shared pain that we we didn't externalize, but you know, 267 00:16:30,120 --> 00:16:33,880 Speaker 1: we had it inside and so we connected. And how 268 00:16:33,920 --> 00:16:38,560 Speaker 1: long after that did you marry and begin a family? 269 00:16:39,720 --> 00:16:43,240 Speaker 1: We dated for a year. We dated for a while. 270 00:16:44,040 --> 00:16:47,600 Speaker 1: Um I remember introducing her to my brother and he 271 00:16:47,800 --> 00:16:51,880 Speaker 1: sort of said, she seems a little immature, And it 272 00:16:51,960 --> 00:16:55,720 Speaker 1: mattered to me so much what my older brother thought. Um, 273 00:16:55,760 --> 00:16:58,320 Speaker 1: So we stopped dating for a while. But then my 274 00:16:58,400 --> 00:17:01,800 Speaker 1: older brother got married and and Catherine, you know, I 275 00:17:01,800 --> 00:17:03,440 Speaker 1: called her up and said would you come with me 276 00:17:03,520 --> 00:17:06,119 Speaker 1: to his wedding and she was like, well, you didn't 277 00:17:06,160 --> 00:17:08,760 Speaker 1: call me, so I thought we were off. And when 278 00:17:08,760 --> 00:17:11,480 Speaker 1: I saw her again, um, well, she dolled up, right, 279 00:17:11,640 --> 00:17:16,000 Speaker 1: she was dogged up. You know. It was a nineteen eighties, 280 00:17:16,040 --> 00:17:18,719 Speaker 1: and she had the big hair and the shoulder pads, 281 00:17:18,920 --> 00:17:22,200 Speaker 1: and she had this tiny waist. And I remember all 282 00:17:22,240 --> 00:17:24,320 Speaker 1: the men they are sort of looking at her, like, wow, 283 00:17:24,400 --> 00:17:28,200 Speaker 1: she's beautiful. And I felt proud, like this is great. 284 00:17:28,480 --> 00:17:31,680 Speaker 1: And and she always had an amazing sense of humor, 285 00:17:31,720 --> 00:17:33,760 Speaker 1: and I think I love that about her too. So 286 00:17:33,800 --> 00:17:37,960 Speaker 1: I think at weddings, that's what happens, right you you're 287 00:17:38,040 --> 00:17:41,200 Speaker 1: with someone and you see all of this happiness and joy, 288 00:17:41,320 --> 00:17:44,720 Speaker 1: and you want to capture that and have that for yourself. 289 00:17:45,160 --> 00:17:47,800 Speaker 1: And was this the wedding of your older brother who 290 00:17:48,000 --> 00:17:52,280 Speaker 1: was admired and emulated and wanted to be like So 291 00:17:52,359 --> 00:17:55,880 Speaker 1: Bill and Catherine start to plan their wedding. The details 292 00:17:55,960 --> 00:17:58,520 Speaker 1: kind of take over the way wedding details. So often 293 00:17:58,560 --> 00:18:02,520 Speaker 1: do you talk about flower arrangements and place cards and 294 00:18:02,560 --> 00:18:06,440 Speaker 1: whether to serve chicken or duck breast, rather than actually 295 00:18:06,480 --> 00:18:09,760 Speaker 1: talking about what you're doing, which is committing to another 296 00:18:09,800 --> 00:18:13,800 Speaker 1: person for life. Bill had all kinds of doubts, but 297 00:18:13,880 --> 00:18:17,920 Speaker 1: he didn't articulate them, not to Catherine, not even to himself. 298 00:18:18,680 --> 00:18:20,720 Speaker 1: He was going to make the best of it. A 299 00:18:20,760 --> 00:18:25,440 Speaker 1: beautiful wedding would lead to a beautiful future. I remember 300 00:18:25,480 --> 00:18:29,240 Speaker 1: the night before my wedding, we had a rehearsal dinner, 301 00:18:29,640 --> 00:18:34,919 Speaker 1: and I remember thinking I should feel something different, I 302 00:18:34,960 --> 00:18:41,239 Speaker 1: should feel this immense joy and wonder and love, and 303 00:18:41,280 --> 00:18:44,080 Speaker 1: I'm not feeling it. But it's too late to change it. 304 00:18:44,240 --> 00:18:48,000 Speaker 1: Everybody's been invited, all the gifts are here, and I 305 00:18:48,080 --> 00:18:52,280 Speaker 1: can't go back. Yeah, you're reminding me of I mean, 306 00:18:52,320 --> 00:18:55,960 Speaker 1: I had a brief, ill fated marriage when I was 307 00:18:56,000 --> 00:18:59,600 Speaker 1: in my twenties, and I remember walking down the aisle 308 00:19:00,200 --> 00:19:02,920 Speaker 1: on the arm of my nineteenth century literature professor who 309 00:19:02,960 --> 00:19:04,840 Speaker 1: was standing in from my dad, who was no longer living, 310 00:19:05,240 --> 00:19:07,439 Speaker 1: and just thinking, this is a mistake. This is a mistake. 311 00:19:07,480 --> 00:19:10,199 Speaker 1: This is a mistake. Um. Yeah, it's not what you're 312 00:19:10,200 --> 00:19:14,959 Speaker 1: supposed to be feeling on your wedding day. Yeah. Katherine 313 00:19:15,000 --> 00:19:18,200 Speaker 1: and Bill begin their lives together, first in Tampa, Florida, 314 00:19:18,240 --> 00:19:20,439 Speaker 1: where he had a job working at a bank, but 315 00:19:20,600 --> 00:19:23,720 Speaker 1: Catherine was terribly homesick, so they packs up their stuff 316 00:19:23,760 --> 00:19:27,000 Speaker 1: and moved back to Greensboro, North Carolina. After a year, 317 00:19:27,920 --> 00:19:31,000 Speaker 1: Bill found another job and that's where their children were born. 318 00:19:32,280 --> 00:19:34,760 Speaker 1: Bill throws himself into his life as a family man. 319 00:19:35,200 --> 00:19:37,960 Speaker 1: He stuffs any feelings he has for men even further 320 00:19:38,040 --> 00:19:41,240 Speaker 1: down into the recesses of his psyche, it just isn't 321 00:19:41,280 --> 00:19:43,720 Speaker 1: going to happen. He loves being a dad to his 322 00:19:43,800 --> 00:19:47,320 Speaker 1: young daughters. He's a really hands on father, unlike his 323 00:19:47,359 --> 00:19:50,600 Speaker 1: own father, who not only was distant and absent, but 324 00:19:50,720 --> 00:19:53,399 Speaker 1: was known to be a full landerer. So this is 325 00:19:53,480 --> 00:19:56,600 Speaker 1: yet another reason why Bill is never going to cheat 326 00:19:56,640 --> 00:20:00,000 Speaker 1: on Catherine, not with anyone, so that part of his life, 327 00:20:00,520 --> 00:20:05,760 Speaker 1: the sexual romantic part, just ceases to exist for him. 328 00:20:05,760 --> 00:20:08,240 Speaker 1: The family moves a number of times as his daughters 329 00:20:08,240 --> 00:20:11,879 Speaker 1: go from babies to little kids to teenagers, and he 330 00:20:11,960 --> 00:20:13,960 Speaker 1: works his way up with the corporate ladder in the 331 00:20:14,000 --> 00:20:18,000 Speaker 1: banking business. I had moved from North Carolina to Virginia 332 00:20:18,040 --> 00:20:22,600 Speaker 1: for a job. That company declared bankruptcy and I found 333 00:20:22,600 --> 00:20:27,440 Speaker 1: a job in the northeast. My kids were teenagers. Then 334 00:20:28,480 --> 00:20:32,160 Speaker 1: we made the decision to move for my career. So 335 00:20:32,160 --> 00:20:36,040 Speaker 1: suddenly I was out of the conservative state of North 336 00:20:36,040 --> 00:20:40,920 Speaker 1: Carolina and Virginia and in the very liberal bastion of 337 00:20:40,960 --> 00:20:44,720 Speaker 1: New England. Same sex marriage had just been approved the 338 00:20:44,800 --> 00:20:49,400 Speaker 1: year we moved, and there was this cognitive dissonance inside 339 00:20:49,440 --> 00:20:51,720 Speaker 1: of me. So there was the combination of the move. 340 00:20:52,240 --> 00:20:55,400 Speaker 1: The kids were teenagers and not relying on me anymore. 341 00:20:56,560 --> 00:21:00,040 Speaker 1: And I met this guy who sort of affect and 342 00:21:00,160 --> 00:21:05,399 Speaker 1: me in a way I had never experienced before. He 343 00:21:05,560 --> 00:21:09,600 Speaker 1: was an ideal, He was funny, he was generous, he 344 00:21:09,760 --> 00:21:12,840 Speaker 1: was kind a lot of men in the South, they're 345 00:21:12,920 --> 00:21:15,879 Speaker 1: kind of guarded, you know, and they don't really express 346 00:21:16,000 --> 00:21:18,720 Speaker 1: their emotions and their feelings. This was the first guy 347 00:21:18,800 --> 00:21:23,880 Speaker 1: that did that, and it really affected me. Bill's feelings 348 00:21:23,880 --> 00:21:27,560 Speaker 1: for this man can't be expressed. It's way too dangerous. 349 00:21:28,040 --> 00:21:32,439 Speaker 1: So instead he finds another outlet for those feelings. The 350 00:21:32,520 --> 00:21:34,760 Speaker 1: skinny kid whose mom told him he really ought a 351 00:21:34,840 --> 00:21:40,119 Speaker 1: lift weights. That kid asserts himself big time. So I 352 00:21:40,160 --> 00:21:45,080 Speaker 1: began to feel those feelings and it became stronger. Because 353 00:21:45,119 --> 00:21:49,359 Speaker 1: of all of that, I was still feeling like that skinny, 354 00:21:49,720 --> 00:21:54,120 Speaker 1: ugly kid, and I wanted to sort of shore up 355 00:21:54,160 --> 00:21:58,800 Speaker 1: the outside to help shore up what was crumbling inside. 356 00:21:59,440 --> 00:22:02,720 Speaker 1: So I began going to the gym working out. It 357 00:22:02,840 --> 00:22:05,760 Speaker 1: was an obsession. It was a way to control something 358 00:22:05,800 --> 00:22:08,960 Speaker 1: in my life when everything else was spinning out of control. 359 00:22:11,280 --> 00:22:14,600 Speaker 1: And I remember the first I'm sort of clicking on 360 00:22:14,640 --> 00:22:18,320 Speaker 1: the by for steroids on the internet and it was 361 00:22:18,400 --> 00:22:21,480 Speaker 1: like all my life, I've been the good boy. I'm 362 00:22:21,520 --> 00:22:24,160 Speaker 1: going to do something now that is just for me. 363 00:22:24,440 --> 00:22:27,959 Speaker 1: I'm going to control this thing. And how did that 364 00:22:28,000 --> 00:22:31,880 Speaker 1: play out? With the steroids and within your I mean, 365 00:22:31,880 --> 00:22:34,200 Speaker 1: you're you're living this family life. You're in this house, 366 00:22:34,240 --> 00:22:37,119 Speaker 1: You've you've got Katherine, You've got your daughters, and you 367 00:22:37,200 --> 00:22:41,720 Speaker 1: have this other life, this secret life. It's sort of 368 00:22:41,720 --> 00:22:43,840 Speaker 1: like a double secret life. It's a secret on top 369 00:22:43,880 --> 00:22:49,359 Speaker 1: of a secret. It is. I remember getting them in 370 00:22:49,359 --> 00:22:54,639 Speaker 1: the mail and Katherine and the girls were sleeping. It 371 00:22:54,720 --> 00:22:57,760 Speaker 1: was a Saturday morning. So I got up and I 372 00:22:57,800 --> 00:23:00,680 Speaker 1: had planned it all out. I had printed out how 373 00:23:00,800 --> 00:23:04,040 Speaker 1: to do a steroid cycle stack. I did all my 374 00:23:04,119 --> 00:23:08,400 Speaker 1: research like the Internet was the greatest teacher. Looking back, 375 00:23:08,440 --> 00:23:10,919 Speaker 1: of course, now that's so foolish, but you know, I 376 00:23:10,960 --> 00:23:13,440 Speaker 1: felt like, oh, I verified it with several different sources 377 00:23:13,480 --> 00:23:16,760 Speaker 1: on the Internet. It was foolish. I got this in 378 00:23:16,840 --> 00:23:18,840 Speaker 1: the mail. I had no idea who the supplier was, 379 00:23:18,880 --> 00:23:22,399 Speaker 1: except it was someone in Eastern Europe. I actually, in 380 00:23:22,520 --> 00:23:25,680 Speaker 1: order to get the steroids, my father had died and 381 00:23:25,760 --> 00:23:28,840 Speaker 1: he left me in I ra a and I needed 382 00:23:28,840 --> 00:23:31,440 Speaker 1: to cash a check every year, and I used that 383 00:23:31,480 --> 00:23:34,480 Speaker 1: money to buy the steroids, and I wired it to 384 00:23:34,520 --> 00:23:39,000 Speaker 1: the supplier. I went down to the bathroom, closed the door, 385 00:23:40,200 --> 00:23:42,560 Speaker 1: and I remember looking in the mirror, thinking, all right, 386 00:23:42,720 --> 00:23:44,960 Speaker 1: am I really going to do this? Is this what 387 00:23:45,000 --> 00:23:50,520 Speaker 1: I'm gonna do? And I filled up the syringe, pulled 388 00:23:50,520 --> 00:23:53,879 Speaker 1: down my pants, stuck it in, pushed the plunger in, 389 00:23:54,119 --> 00:23:56,960 Speaker 1: and then pulled the needle out. And I sat there waiting, 390 00:23:57,080 --> 00:24:00,159 Speaker 1: thinking how fast is this going to work? Is this 391 00:24:00,280 --> 00:24:02,439 Speaker 1: going to make me strong right away? Is it going 392 00:24:02,480 --> 00:24:06,280 Speaker 1: to cause a heart attack? Of course, none of that happened, um, 393 00:24:07,040 --> 00:24:09,959 Speaker 1: But over the weeks it became more of an obsession. 394 00:24:10,480 --> 00:24:13,520 Speaker 1: And then I began to see the scale move from 395 00:24:13,600 --> 00:24:20,360 Speaker 1: one sixty one seventy, and I became really hungry, finishing 396 00:24:20,359 --> 00:24:27,160 Speaker 1: my plate, finishing the girl's plates. It's interesting because I 397 00:24:27,200 --> 00:24:31,359 Speaker 1: was spiraling down, but somehow Catherine was becoming stronger in 398 00:24:31,400 --> 00:24:34,560 Speaker 1: a way. I'm not sure if she saw, Okay, something's 399 00:24:34,800 --> 00:24:38,560 Speaker 1: terribly wrong with her husband, um, but she had struggled 400 00:24:38,600 --> 00:24:42,520 Speaker 1: for a while, you know, in finding her birth family 401 00:24:42,680 --> 00:24:46,120 Speaker 1: and and all the results of that. But she started 402 00:24:46,160 --> 00:24:48,960 Speaker 1: to sort of question me, like what's going on? Like 403 00:24:49,040 --> 00:24:51,480 Speaker 1: you're a lot bigger and like, you're going to the 404 00:24:51,520 --> 00:24:53,600 Speaker 1: gym all the time, is you tell me if something 405 00:24:53,720 --> 00:24:56,199 Speaker 1: was wrong? And of course I was like, no, no, 406 00:24:56,280 --> 00:24:58,159 Speaker 1: I'm just stressed at work and this is just my 407 00:24:58,240 --> 00:25:04,600 Speaker 1: way of just beating distress. Within your marriage to Catherine, 408 00:25:04,680 --> 00:25:08,320 Speaker 1: during those years and the years prior, was there a 409 00:25:08,359 --> 00:25:14,120 Speaker 1: kind of accommodation in terms of intimacy. Catherine Um struggled 410 00:25:14,160 --> 00:25:17,480 Speaker 1: for a while with i'll call it sadness, just just 411 00:25:17,520 --> 00:25:23,159 Speaker 1: to call it that. Um she was adopted, she found 412 00:25:23,200 --> 00:25:26,320 Speaker 1: her birth family, who was wonderful. It was a wonderful 413 00:25:26,359 --> 00:25:28,560 Speaker 1: birth family, and as it turned out, her birth mother 414 00:25:29,240 --> 00:25:32,320 Speaker 1: married her birth father and they had another child, so 415 00:25:33,480 --> 00:25:35,399 Speaker 1: she was given up so that she could have a 416 00:25:35,480 --> 00:25:40,080 Speaker 1: two parent family. Her adopted father died when she was five, 417 00:25:40,160 --> 00:25:43,000 Speaker 1: so she didn't have that. But here was this family 418 00:25:43,040 --> 00:25:45,560 Speaker 1: that gave her up, who did have that, and a 419 00:25:45,640 --> 00:25:49,880 Speaker 1: sister and that, and she struggled with that. She always 420 00:25:51,440 --> 00:25:54,520 Speaker 1: wanted a family that would sort of choose her and 421 00:25:54,560 --> 00:25:59,520 Speaker 1: not regret their decision. So she struggled a long time. 422 00:25:59,560 --> 00:26:03,920 Speaker 1: And so intimacy in the beginning, it was we were 423 00:26:04,080 --> 00:26:07,439 Speaker 1: very intimate. As the years progressed, it became less and 424 00:26:07,520 --> 00:26:11,639 Speaker 1: less frequent and I would say, oh, this is what 425 00:26:11,760 --> 00:26:14,239 Speaker 1: all married couples do, this is what happens to all 426 00:26:14,320 --> 00:26:17,560 Speaker 1: married couples. And because she was struggling with some of 427 00:26:17,560 --> 00:26:21,440 Speaker 1: this sadness too, she was less frequently interested in it. 428 00:26:21,960 --> 00:26:23,960 Speaker 1: So I think that was sort of the accommodation. But 429 00:26:24,000 --> 00:26:27,000 Speaker 1: there was a certainly times where she would say, why 430 00:26:27,040 --> 00:26:29,320 Speaker 1: don't you ever kiss me? Why don't you kiss me 431 00:26:29,400 --> 00:26:32,199 Speaker 1: the way we did when we dated? You know, I 432 00:26:32,240 --> 00:26:34,960 Speaker 1: shouldn't be the one who's initiating it all the time. 433 00:26:35,040 --> 00:26:37,760 Speaker 1: This is what she said. I would listen to that 434 00:26:37,840 --> 00:26:39,560 Speaker 1: and say, Okay, I've got to make a note to 435 00:26:39,600 --> 00:26:43,200 Speaker 1: make sure that I do initiate it. And I do that. 436 00:26:43,280 --> 00:26:47,000 Speaker 1: But I'm sure in her mind it was always playing 437 00:26:47,119 --> 00:26:51,359 Speaker 1: behind it that there's something wrong, and is that thing 438 00:26:51,560 --> 00:26:55,639 Speaker 1: that's wrong me? And so I think she began to 439 00:26:55,680 --> 00:27:00,119 Speaker 1: think there was something wrong with her, which was extremely 440 00:27:00,160 --> 00:27:03,199 Speaker 1: painful for me because I knew what was happening, and 441 00:27:03,240 --> 00:27:07,639 Speaker 1: I was causing her to feel less desirable. And you 442 00:27:07,840 --> 00:27:13,160 Speaker 1: loved her. I did love her. That love comes through 443 00:27:13,240 --> 00:27:17,280 Speaker 1: so strongly in Bill's memoir. His bond with Catherine may 444 00:27:17,320 --> 00:27:20,600 Speaker 1: not have been romantic or sexual, but it was love, 445 00:27:22,000 --> 00:27:24,000 Speaker 1: So it would be a painful thing to know you're 446 00:27:24,040 --> 00:27:27,280 Speaker 1: causing the person you love pain, or that she's blaming 447 00:27:27,320 --> 00:27:30,280 Speaker 1: herself for something that's got nothing to do with her. 448 00:27:31,280 --> 00:27:34,359 Speaker 1: For so many years of our marriage, she always worked 449 00:27:34,359 --> 00:27:36,560 Speaker 1: at home, so I was always sort of the breadwinner 450 00:27:37,040 --> 00:27:40,119 Speaker 1: and the caretaker. Even when the kids were born. Um, 451 00:27:40,600 --> 00:27:42,639 Speaker 1: Katherine had a C section with both of them, so 452 00:27:42,680 --> 00:27:44,200 Speaker 1: I would get up with the kids in the middle 453 00:27:44,200 --> 00:27:45,840 Speaker 1: of the night. So I was always the one to 454 00:27:45,920 --> 00:27:48,080 Speaker 1: sort of take care of things. And I sort of 455 00:27:48,760 --> 00:27:51,680 Speaker 1: prided myself and that I love doing that, and and 456 00:27:51,800 --> 00:27:54,760 Speaker 1: I love taking care of Catherine as well, but I 457 00:27:54,800 --> 00:27:59,040 Speaker 1: wasn't taking care of her completely. So this period of 458 00:27:59,080 --> 00:28:02,760 Speaker 1: time where your body is changing, there is a moment 459 00:28:03,880 --> 00:28:09,479 Speaker 1: where Catherine finds the steroids. Yeah, the way that that 460 00:28:09,600 --> 00:28:13,399 Speaker 1: happened is I would I She was beginning to doubt, 461 00:28:13,480 --> 00:28:18,600 Speaker 1: of course, because no man goes from hundred and fifty 462 00:28:18,600 --> 00:28:23,160 Speaker 1: pounds pounds and suddenly as acne on his back. There 463 00:28:23,200 --> 00:28:28,200 Speaker 1: was a package that came in the mail well after Christmas, Um, 464 00:28:28,280 --> 00:28:30,159 Speaker 1: and I had told her, you know, I might be 465 00:28:30,200 --> 00:28:32,600 Speaker 1: getting stuff in the mail and it might be a 466 00:28:32,640 --> 00:28:38,200 Speaker 1: Christmas gifts. Don't open it clever. She did she she 467 00:28:38,320 --> 00:28:42,520 Speaker 1: saw this package. It was from Moldova and um I 468 00:28:42,920 --> 00:28:44,880 Speaker 1: she told me, well, their writing was sort of so 469 00:28:45,000 --> 00:28:47,520 Speaker 1: interesting and intricate, and when I opened it up, the 470 00:28:47,640 --> 00:28:51,720 Speaker 1: vial of steroids was wrapped in this newspaper that was 471 00:28:51,840 --> 00:28:54,880 Speaker 1: very intricately wrapped, and so she thought, oh, it's a gift. 472 00:28:55,040 --> 00:28:57,239 Speaker 1: You know. The girls were with her and she's like, 473 00:28:57,320 --> 00:29:00,360 Speaker 1: should we open it. My daughters were with her and 474 00:29:01,320 --> 00:29:05,200 Speaker 1: they opened it, and unfortunately it was all of them 475 00:29:05,240 --> 00:29:09,240 Speaker 1: that discovered sort of this vial of amber fluid at 476 00:29:09,240 --> 00:29:13,320 Speaker 1: the same time. So when I came home that night, 477 00:29:13,360 --> 00:29:15,480 Speaker 1: she actually called me at work and said, all right, 478 00:29:15,680 --> 00:29:21,160 Speaker 1: you need to come home. Now. We're going to pause 479 00:29:21,200 --> 00:29:34,520 Speaker 1: for a moment. Bill comes home, his wife and his 480 00:29:34,600 --> 00:29:37,920 Speaker 1: girls are all sitting at the kitchen counter, very solemn, 481 00:29:38,280 --> 00:29:42,960 Speaker 1: just sitting there staring at him. Catherine opens up her 482 00:29:43,000 --> 00:29:46,040 Speaker 1: hand and in her palm is the vial of steroids. 483 00:29:46,920 --> 00:29:50,360 Speaker 1: At first, Bill is just plain angry she opened his mail, 484 00:29:50,520 --> 00:29:54,120 Speaker 1: violated his privacy. He knows this is the wrong response, 485 00:29:54,160 --> 00:29:57,080 Speaker 1: but he just can't help it. His daughter, Claire says, 486 00:29:57,840 --> 00:29:59,600 Speaker 1: I think I know where the rest of his stashes. 487 00:30:00,440 --> 00:30:03,120 Speaker 1: She's noticed that Bill has always been protective of his 488 00:30:03,200 --> 00:30:05,520 Speaker 1: work back, he doesn't let it out of his sight. 489 00:30:06,360 --> 00:30:09,160 Speaker 1: She grabs his bag, pulls out a brown paper bag 490 00:30:09,280 --> 00:30:15,720 Speaker 1: filled with syringes, and Catherine Catherine confiscates it all. It 491 00:30:15,840 --> 00:30:18,080 Speaker 1: must have been a terrible feeling on top of a 492 00:30:18,160 --> 00:30:21,360 Speaker 1: terrible feeling, because those steroids are the only way that 493 00:30:21,400 --> 00:30:26,120 Speaker 1: Bill is managing to control his shame, guilt, and desires. 494 00:30:26,120 --> 00:30:31,520 Speaker 1: So how long after this does she confront you and 495 00:30:31,640 --> 00:30:37,320 Speaker 1: straight out ask you if you're gay? It took a 496 00:30:37,360 --> 00:30:41,040 Speaker 1: couple of months after that actually before she confronted me. 497 00:30:41,880 --> 00:30:47,040 Speaker 1: That's so interesting because I think we only ask what 498 00:30:47,040 --> 00:30:53,840 Speaker 1: we're ready to know, and it would seem so completely 499 00:30:53,960 --> 00:30:58,719 Speaker 1: clear once that discovery of the steroids were made, plus 500 00:30:58,800 --> 00:31:01,960 Speaker 1: everything else that had come to for that that was 501 00:31:02,000 --> 00:31:06,600 Speaker 1: the case. But it seems like she couldn't take in 502 00:31:06,800 --> 00:31:09,760 Speaker 1: more than she could handle until she was able to 503 00:31:09,800 --> 00:31:13,880 Speaker 1: ask the next logical question. Right, She had to be 504 00:31:13,960 --> 00:31:17,000 Speaker 1: prepared if she asked that question for what the answer was, 505 00:31:18,200 --> 00:31:22,920 Speaker 1: and that answer might destroy everything she always knew. So 506 00:31:23,000 --> 00:31:27,080 Speaker 1: I think it was a series of steps to discovering 507 00:31:27,320 --> 00:31:33,440 Speaker 1: what the true nature of the secret was. We were 508 00:31:33,840 --> 00:31:37,000 Speaker 1: driving to Walmart to get some supplies for the girls 509 00:31:37,000 --> 00:31:40,760 Speaker 1: for school, and I could see she was very quiet 510 00:31:40,960 --> 00:31:45,800 Speaker 1: and she was mulling something over and she said, very quickly, okay, 511 00:31:45,880 --> 00:31:47,880 Speaker 1: just pull over, pull over, parked the car. I got 512 00:31:47,880 --> 00:31:50,680 Speaker 1: to ask you this or I never will. And I 513 00:31:50,760 --> 00:31:52,520 Speaker 1: knew in I had what she was going to ask me, 514 00:31:53,320 --> 00:31:56,240 Speaker 1: but I didn't know what my answer would be until 515 00:31:56,280 --> 00:32:03,960 Speaker 1: we parked there, and I owed her the truth. When 516 00:32:04,000 --> 00:32:07,960 Speaker 1: you love someone, you can't lie to them. You've got 517 00:32:08,080 --> 00:32:13,640 Speaker 1: to stand in the truth. And even though I knew 518 00:32:13,640 --> 00:32:17,320 Speaker 1: it would destroy everything I built, because everything was built 519 00:32:17,400 --> 00:32:22,440 Speaker 1: on that lie everything, I owed her the truth. And 520 00:32:22,480 --> 00:32:24,920 Speaker 1: what was your response to Catherine when she asked you 521 00:32:24,960 --> 00:32:30,160 Speaker 1: if you were gay? I don't want to be. And 522 00:32:30,240 --> 00:32:33,920 Speaker 1: it was exactly what I was thinking. And that was 523 00:32:34,000 --> 00:32:36,920 Speaker 1: also the truth of your entire life, which is you 524 00:32:36,960 --> 00:32:41,880 Speaker 1: didn't want to be exactly I had tried so hard 525 00:32:41,960 --> 00:32:48,200 Speaker 1: not to be. So after telling Catherine, there was this 526 00:32:48,320 --> 00:32:53,360 Speaker 1: immediate sense of relief. Oh my god, I've finally told somebody, 527 00:32:54,720 --> 00:32:59,600 Speaker 1: and the person I've told is my wife. In some 528 00:32:59,680 --> 00:33:03,200 Speaker 1: ways it felt really right, and in some ways it 529 00:33:03,280 --> 00:33:08,920 Speaker 1: felt really wrong. Catherine had been with Bill all those years. 530 00:33:09,480 --> 00:33:11,160 Speaker 1: She deserved to be the one who knew the truth 531 00:33:11,240 --> 00:33:13,960 Speaker 1: to begin with. For a while, the two of them 532 00:33:14,000 --> 00:33:16,400 Speaker 1: had a renewed connection because they both knew a secret 533 00:33:16,480 --> 00:33:19,960 Speaker 1: no one else knew. They clung to each other. They wondered, 534 00:33:20,280 --> 00:33:22,680 Speaker 1: where do we go from here? Do we stay together? 535 00:33:22,800 --> 00:33:26,040 Speaker 1: Because we got the kids, the house, the job. Each night, 536 00:33:26,080 --> 00:33:29,840 Speaker 1: as they laid in bed, they talked it through. Eventually 537 00:33:29,880 --> 00:33:32,360 Speaker 1: they came to the conclusion that they both deserved to 538 00:33:32,440 --> 00:33:35,680 Speaker 1: be happy and they needed to tell the kids. It 539 00:33:35,760 --> 00:33:38,640 Speaker 1: wasn't fair to lie to them. Their girls were at 540 00:33:38,640 --> 00:33:43,160 Speaker 1: this point fourteen and sixteen, Bill and Catherine call a 541 00:33:43,240 --> 00:33:47,520 Speaker 1: family meeting on a weekend afternoon. Okay, girls, I want 542 00:33:47,560 --> 00:33:50,360 Speaker 1: you to know something. I'm the same person today that 543 00:33:50,400 --> 00:33:53,160 Speaker 1: I was yesterday, but I want you to know this 544 00:33:53,280 --> 00:33:57,880 Speaker 1: about me. I'm gay. It was the thing he never 545 00:33:57,920 --> 00:34:02,680 Speaker 1: wanted to say to them, to anyone. Well, that makes sense, 546 00:34:02,800 --> 00:34:05,600 Speaker 1: one of them says, are you getting a divorce? The 547 00:34:05,640 --> 00:34:10,640 Speaker 1: other asks, we're talking about it? Your parents respond, does 548 00:34:10,680 --> 00:34:14,560 Speaker 1: this mean we'll have to move again? So many questions 549 00:34:15,000 --> 00:34:20,480 Speaker 1: and the sound of a house so carefully constructed breaking apart. 550 00:34:22,200 --> 00:34:25,040 Speaker 1: You wrote a really beautiful modern love column in The 551 00:34:25,080 --> 00:34:28,200 Speaker 1: New York Times about the last time that Catherine cuts 552 00:34:28,200 --> 00:34:31,759 Speaker 1: your hair. She had always cut your hair throughout your 553 00:34:32,120 --> 00:34:37,040 Speaker 1: entire decades long marriage. Was it two sixty four haircuts? 554 00:34:37,080 --> 00:34:41,560 Speaker 1: Two and sixty four haircuts? And it's this beautiful piece 555 00:34:41,640 --> 00:34:45,000 Speaker 1: about her giving you the last haircut. You know it's 556 00:34:45,000 --> 00:34:46,919 Speaker 1: going to be the last haircut, and actually you asked 557 00:34:46,920 --> 00:34:49,680 Speaker 1: her to just shave your head, and she shaves your head, 558 00:34:49,719 --> 00:34:53,480 Speaker 1: and she's crying as she's shaving your head. It's really powerful. 559 00:34:54,800 --> 00:34:57,880 Speaker 1: So after after we decided to get a divorce and 560 00:34:57,920 --> 00:35:01,239 Speaker 1: I came out to the children, I was sort of 561 00:35:01,280 --> 00:35:04,759 Speaker 1: so racked with shame and guilt. Then Catherine didn't have 562 00:35:04,800 --> 00:35:07,480 Speaker 1: a support system in the Northeast, and she felt like 563 00:35:07,560 --> 00:35:10,040 Speaker 1: she just had to take the girls back to Virginia, 564 00:35:10,120 --> 00:35:13,040 Speaker 1: where we had lived for nine years, where they would 565 00:35:13,080 --> 00:35:16,879 Speaker 1: have a support system. So she had moved back, and 566 00:35:17,080 --> 00:35:19,319 Speaker 1: I helped them buy a house and I set up 567 00:35:19,360 --> 00:35:23,040 Speaker 1: the house, and I would go back every weekend, using 568 00:35:23,080 --> 00:35:26,000 Speaker 1: all these miles to spend time with them, to set 569 00:35:26,040 --> 00:35:29,320 Speaker 1: up the house, to get things ready. And finally, after 570 00:35:29,360 --> 00:35:34,720 Speaker 1: a while, Catherine had had enough, like we can't keep pretending. 571 00:35:34,800 --> 00:35:38,520 Speaker 1: You can't keep coming back here every weekend and pretending 572 00:35:38,560 --> 00:35:40,520 Speaker 1: that we're a married couple. It's too hard on me. 573 00:35:40,880 --> 00:35:43,840 Speaker 1: I've got to move on um. And she had always 574 00:35:43,840 --> 00:35:46,080 Speaker 1: cut my hair. Nobody else had cut my hair. I 575 00:35:46,080 --> 00:35:49,680 Speaker 1: don't know why I was so particular about it, but 576 00:35:49,760 --> 00:35:53,520 Speaker 1: she had done it all of those times. And I 577 00:35:53,600 --> 00:35:56,680 Speaker 1: remember just getting the briefcase because we wouldn't even say anything. 578 00:35:56,719 --> 00:35:59,080 Speaker 1: If I got the briefcase that had the haircutting equipment 579 00:35:59,120 --> 00:36:01,480 Speaker 1: in it. She okay, it's time for a hair cut. 580 00:36:01,600 --> 00:36:04,359 Speaker 1: So I got it. She puts the cape on me 581 00:36:04,840 --> 00:36:07,560 Speaker 1: and she's cutting my hair, and that's when she's saying, 582 00:36:09,000 --> 00:36:13,920 Speaker 1: you can't stay here again. And so she asked me, 583 00:36:13,960 --> 00:36:17,080 Speaker 1: who's going to cut your hair? After all this time, 584 00:36:17,120 --> 00:36:20,000 Speaker 1: it was our most in a way, our most intimate 585 00:36:20,080 --> 00:36:22,719 Speaker 1: act because she would have her hands on my head 586 00:36:22,800 --> 00:36:25,880 Speaker 1: and in my hair. And so I thought, well, I 587 00:36:25,880 --> 00:36:27,840 Speaker 1: don't know who's going to cut my hair, so I 588 00:36:28,080 --> 00:36:30,960 Speaker 1: just want you to shave it all off. And so 589 00:36:31,040 --> 00:36:35,279 Speaker 1: she did. And when she saw me, she saw me 590 00:36:36,040 --> 00:36:40,000 Speaker 1: the person with no hair shaved off, and it was 591 00:36:40,040 --> 00:36:42,759 Speaker 1: a different man. And so for her that was shocking, 592 00:36:43,120 --> 00:36:45,160 Speaker 1: and she knew she was never going to cut it again. 593 00:36:46,040 --> 00:36:48,880 Speaker 1: And here was this man who's no longer her husband. 594 00:36:48,960 --> 00:36:53,279 Speaker 1: And so for me, that is just sort of the 595 00:36:53,360 --> 00:36:56,520 Speaker 1: heart of the book and why I published it in 596 00:36:56,640 --> 00:37:01,720 Speaker 1: modern Love, because we did have this love, in this intimacy, 597 00:37:01,840 --> 00:37:06,279 Speaker 1: and it was expressed through two hundred and sixty four haircuts. 598 00:37:06,320 --> 00:37:08,160 Speaker 1: And if she's cut my hair all these years, I'm 599 00:37:08,160 --> 00:37:10,640 Speaker 1: gonna shave it and nobody else is going to cut it. 600 00:37:10,719 --> 00:37:15,080 Speaker 1: Is a way to start new. So, speaking of starting new, 601 00:37:16,320 --> 00:37:21,400 Speaker 1: talk about your life today. Life today is really good. 602 00:37:21,560 --> 00:37:27,120 Speaker 1: After all of that. I had a few tragic encounters 603 00:37:27,160 --> 00:37:30,760 Speaker 1: with men, of course, because after forty some years, dating 604 00:37:30,760 --> 00:37:33,720 Speaker 1: men for the first time was a whole new experience. 605 00:37:34,960 --> 00:37:38,600 Speaker 1: But then I met another father named Paul, who has 606 00:37:38,640 --> 00:37:42,880 Speaker 1: three children, and I've written him about him in my book, 607 00:37:43,120 --> 00:37:47,200 Speaker 1: and my brother told me, you make Paul too perfect, Like, well, 608 00:37:47,400 --> 00:37:53,040 Speaker 1: he is perfect. We're married, we have five kids between us, 609 00:37:53,080 --> 00:37:55,320 Speaker 1: three of them still live with us there in their twenties. 610 00:37:55,840 --> 00:37:58,280 Speaker 1: He has a great relationship with his ex wife because 611 00:37:58,280 --> 00:38:01,200 Speaker 1: he was married to a woman before, and his ex 612 00:38:01,239 --> 00:38:04,960 Speaker 1: wife is married and has another child. And my ex 613 00:38:05,040 --> 00:38:09,920 Speaker 1: wife now is engaged to somebody. Um he has the 614 00:38:09,960 --> 00:38:12,640 Speaker 1: same name as me. We talked on the phone a 615 00:38:12,680 --> 00:38:15,040 Speaker 1: week ago and she asked if Paul and I would 616 00:38:15,080 --> 00:38:18,280 Speaker 1: come to her wedding, So we're all in a really 617 00:38:18,640 --> 00:38:26,320 Speaker 1: great place. It took this bomb to explode, to sort 618 00:38:26,360 --> 00:38:29,919 Speaker 1: of blow things apart so that we could come back 619 00:38:29,960 --> 00:38:33,800 Speaker 1: together in a new configuration, which was in truth instead 620 00:38:33,840 --> 00:38:37,399 Speaker 1: of lies, and in real love instead of this sort 621 00:38:37,440 --> 00:38:45,400 Speaker 1: of faking. Yet, so what happens when shame goes away? 622 00:38:45,840 --> 00:38:50,520 Speaker 1: When a secret is no longer sitting in any corner 623 00:38:51,280 --> 00:38:54,560 Speaker 1: or stuffed under any rug? What does it feel like 624 00:38:54,719 --> 00:38:57,560 Speaker 1: to walk through life? Or I don't want to put 625 00:38:57,560 --> 00:38:59,360 Speaker 1: words in your mouth? Is that the case that you 626 00:38:59,400 --> 00:39:04,600 Speaker 1: walk through life now without that feeling of something wrong 627 00:39:05,000 --> 00:39:09,680 Speaker 1: being on the inside? You're exactly right, it is. It's 628 00:39:09,760 --> 00:39:13,600 Speaker 1: gone away. You have an energy you never thought you 629 00:39:13,640 --> 00:39:18,279 Speaker 1: would have before. You don't have to hide pronouns, you 630 00:39:18,320 --> 00:39:21,920 Speaker 1: don't have to hide you know, when you're in the closet, 631 00:39:21,920 --> 00:39:23,839 Speaker 1: it's not just a part of you, it's all of you. 632 00:39:24,840 --> 00:39:28,200 Speaker 1: And when you step out of that, you can suddenly 633 00:39:28,239 --> 00:39:32,280 Speaker 1: see things so clearly. And I always wanted to write, 634 00:39:32,400 --> 00:39:35,720 Speaker 1: but I couldn't write because my words weren't authentic. Now 635 00:39:35,760 --> 00:39:39,800 Speaker 1: I had this sudden creativity and this energy, and I'm 636 00:39:39,800 --> 00:39:43,080 Speaker 1: writing and reaching out to people who were in the 637 00:39:43,120 --> 00:39:48,120 Speaker 1: same situation and helping them, And it is night and day. 638 00:39:48,239 --> 00:39:50,480 Speaker 1: It is night and day when you get rid of 639 00:39:50,480 --> 00:39:53,719 Speaker 1: a secret. And that's I think the way to see it. 640 00:39:53,719 --> 00:39:59,040 Speaker 1: It was dark before and now it's light. I asked 641 00:39:59,080 --> 00:40:01,839 Speaker 1: Bill to me a pass from his memoir, the Lie 642 00:40:02,000 --> 00:40:05,360 Speaker 1: that to me perfectly encapsulates the beauty and the pathos 643 00:40:05,400 --> 00:40:09,280 Speaker 1: of his story and the way ultimately that love wins. 644 00:40:10,080 --> 00:40:12,879 Speaker 1: Oh and when it comes to love, there's one more thing. 645 00:40:13,480 --> 00:40:16,120 Speaker 1: After our interview, Bill wrote to me to make sure 646 00:40:16,160 --> 00:40:19,600 Speaker 1: I understood that his mother, the same mother who once 647 00:40:19,640 --> 00:40:22,680 Speaker 1: berated him and shamed him for being gay, is his 648 00:40:22,880 --> 00:40:27,960 Speaker 1: fiercest and most loving supporter today. So there's that in 649 00:40:28,000 --> 00:40:31,400 Speaker 1: the richness, the fullness, the amazing span of a life 650 00:40:31,719 --> 00:40:36,800 Speaker 1: he never could have imagined. If this were a film 651 00:40:36,880 --> 00:40:40,160 Speaker 1: playing out in the camera, pand you would see a 652 00:40:40,200 --> 00:40:43,839 Speaker 1: family of four standing silently by the front door, with 653 00:40:43,880 --> 00:40:47,400 Speaker 1: no sense of whether they were coming or going. Pulling 654 00:40:47,440 --> 00:40:50,759 Speaker 1: further back, a set of upset kitchen chair is lying 655 00:40:50,800 --> 00:40:54,279 Speaker 1: on their backs, and then drifting above the house, and 656 00:40:54,320 --> 00:40:58,040 Speaker 1: then old branches of leafless trees hovering over the roof. 657 00:40:58,600 --> 00:41:03,319 Speaker 1: We're chattering squirrels, anst and mocked. A barking dog just 658 00:41:03,440 --> 00:41:07,200 Speaker 1: behind this house, where other similar homes, where warm yellow 659 00:41:07,280 --> 00:41:10,880 Speaker 1: lights began to illuminate windows, and the headlights of cars 660 00:41:10,960 --> 00:41:15,800 Speaker 1: cast yellow triangles in the dark driveways. Behind the doors 661 00:41:15,840 --> 00:41:18,719 Speaker 1: of these homes, you might hear the muffled cries of 662 00:41:18,760 --> 00:41:22,799 Speaker 1: excited children running toward the front door, holding out their 663 00:41:22,840 --> 00:41:33,880 Speaker 1: hands and shouting Daddy's home. I'd like to thank my guest, 664 00:41:34,000 --> 00:41:37,880 Speaker 1: William Dameron, for sharing his story today. He is the 665 00:41:37,920 --> 00:41:41,760 Speaker 1: author of The Lie, a memoir of two marriages, cat fishing, 666 00:41:41,880 --> 00:41:45,080 Speaker 1: and coming Out. You can find out more about Bill 667 00:41:45,480 --> 00:41:50,960 Speaker 1: at www dot William Dameron dot com. Family Secrets is 668 00:41:51,000 --> 00:41:54,880 Speaker 1: an iHeart Media production. Dylan Fagan is the supervising producer, 669 00:41:55,160 --> 00:41:58,640 Speaker 1: Lowell Bolante is the audio engineer, and Julie Douglas is 670 00:41:58,680 --> 00:42:02,200 Speaker 1: the executive producer. If you have a family secret you'd 671 00:42:02,239 --> 00:42:04,440 Speaker 1: like to share, you can get in touch with us 672 00:42:04,480 --> 00:42:08,799 Speaker 1: at listener mail at Family Secrets podcast dot com, and 673 00:42:08,880 --> 00:42:12,120 Speaker 1: you can also find us on Instagram at Danny Writer, 674 00:42:12,760 --> 00:42:16,640 Speaker 1: and Facebook at Family Secrets Pod and Twitter at fami 675 00:42:16,680 --> 00:42:21,320 Speaker 1: Secrets Pod. For more about my book Inheritance, visit Danny 676 00:42:21,360 --> 00:42:33,640 Speaker 1: Shapiro dot com. For more podcasts. For my Heart Radio, 677 00:42:33,800 --> 00:42:36,640 Speaker 1: visit the I heart radio, app, Apple podcasts, or wherever 678 00:42:36,840 --> 00:42:38,280 Speaker 1: you listen to your favorite shows.