Speaker 1: This is Bloomberg Business Week with Carol Messer and Tim
Speaker 1: Steneveek on Bloomberg Radio.
Speaker 2: We do want to get to our next guest. We're
Speaker 2: excited about talking to her as well. She's worked in
Speaker 2: a lot of culture and DII rolls over the last
Speaker 2: twenty years. She's worked in communications and culture at the
Speaker 2: money and metals company BHP Billetin. She's also worked in
Speaker 2: DEI rolls at The Unsued Women.
Speaker 3: And she's done.
Speaker 4: More than that. Yeah.
Speaker 1: She spent a year as Netflix's director of Diversity and
Speaker 1: Inclusion and is now a managing director at a DEI
Speaker 1: consulting firm. Michelle King is also the author of a
Speaker 1: brand new book. It's called How Work Works, The Subtle
Speaker 1: Science of Getting Ahead Without losing Yourself. She joins us
Speaker 1: on Zoom from the UK. Good to have you with
Speaker 1: us this afternoon. Michelle, how are you.
Speaker 3: I'm good. Thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 1: Well, thanks for joining us. I was really interested in
Speaker 1: reading about the book in terms of the strategies that
Speaker 1: you have for getting ahead without losing yourself, and so
Speaker 1: much of it involves physical being in an office with
Speaker 1: somebody else and like interacting with them and looking for cues,
Speaker 1: and I'm wondering how in the world of twenty twenty three,
Speaker 1: when so many people are in these hybrid rules and
Speaker 1: you know you're joining us on zoom for example, how
Speaker 1: you do this?
Speaker 4: Yes, So I mean the book try to cover, you know,
Speaker 4: how the world of work is hybrid, whether we like
Speaker 4: it or not. I know a lot of businesses have
Speaker 4: moved back to being in the office, but I think
Speaker 4: the reality is the data points about seventy to eighty
Speaker 4: percent of companies see this as you know, here to stay.
Speaker 4: So I think the reality is we've got to learn
Speaker 4: how to do this in a hybrid environment. I think
Speaker 4: what makes it a lot more challenging when it comes
Speaker 4: to things like informal networking or sharing informal information as examples,
Speaker 4: it's a lot harder when you're doing that virtually because
Speaker 4: you can't read the non verbal cues, you can't sort
Speaker 4: of see somebody's border context. So I think what that
Speaker 4: requires is actually being a lot more intentional. So you know,
Speaker 4: most people don't actually manage their careers, you know, so
Speaker 4: finds they tend to to sort of let it volve
Speaker 4: organically or hope their company will help them advance and
Speaker 4: the reason I wrote this book is I wanted people
Speaker 4: to see, Look, the world of work has changed, and
Speaker 4: really it's up to each of us now to manage
Speaker 4: our careers and carve our own path.
Speaker 2: What's the biggest mistake people make in today's environment when
Speaker 2: they are trying to get ahead.
Speaker 4: Yeah, the number one mistake is people focus.
Speaker 3: On what they do, not how they do it.
Speaker 4: So eighty three percent of us have to collaborate with
Speaker 4: other people in order to do our jobs.
Speaker 3: That's incredible.
Speaker 4: So if you think back to the nineteen fifties and
Speaker 4: you know sort of companies like Ford Motor Company and
Speaker 4: mass production lines, you could go and do a task,
Speaker 4: go home and not really have to engage too much
Speaker 4: with anybody that has gone So how we work really
Speaker 4: enables what we can achieve because we have to work
Speaker 4: with others to do our jobs.
Speaker 1: Do you think companies are still taking DEI seriously. We
Speaker 1: heard a lot of it in the wake of George Floyd,
Speaker 1: in the wake of twenty twenty. Are they taking it
Speaker 1: seriously today?
Speaker 4: Look, I think the backlash we're seeing is pretty inevitable. So,
Speaker 4: you know, I think whenever there's progress, there's some form
Speaker 4: of backlash. I think what this tells me, though, particularly
Speaker 4: as a researcher, having spent maybe all of my career
Speaker 4: also in academia, is that, you know, we haven't really
Speaker 4: engaged white men in understanding how this benefits them. The
Speaker 4: one study I conducted with eight hundred and thirty five
Speaker 4: men and women, I found for men in particular, they
Speaker 4: saw sort of the number one barrier to their advancement
Speaker 4: at work being de initiatives focused on women. And that's
Speaker 4: because men don't really understand what's in it for them.
Speaker 4: They don't really understand, you know, why they should engage.
Speaker 4: There's no personal case for change. And I think in
Speaker 4: many respects, you know, DEI initiatives have failed white men
Speaker 4: because we haven't engaged them in understanding how this benefits
Speaker 4: them and quite honestly why.
Speaker 3: They need this more than anyone.
Speaker 4: And my first book really, you know, try to make
Speaker 4: the case the why we need to engage everyone in
Speaker 4: the fight for building workplaces that work for everybody.
Speaker 2: Interesting. Well, I guess it kind of speaks to you
Speaker 2: got to get them on board in order for it
Speaker 2: to really happen, since they are predominantly in the senior roles.
Speaker 2: No right, it's an interesting is that kind of basically
Speaker 2: what you're saying that if you don't get them on board,
Speaker 2: then it's going to be hard to really move forward.
Speaker 4: Well, we need everyone on board, and I think, in
Speaker 4: all honesty, that's why I wrote this book. I wanted
Speaker 4: to show people that the old world of work that
Speaker 4: we know and love, the traditional hierarchical, command and control, dominant, assertive, aggressive,
Speaker 4: typically masculine workplace cultures, that's gone and it's going.
Speaker 3: And the reason it's.
Speaker 4: Going is because workplaces, the innovation, the creativity, the productivity
Speaker 4: they want, everything is on the other side of building
Speaker 4: workplace cultures that are more inclusive. And what I wanted
Speaker 4: to share is this is actually a career imperative. So
Speaker 4: you know, if you want to network, for example, right,
Speaker 4: you know, seventy percent of all jobs come through then
Speaker 4: formal network. You cannot afford to only network with people
Speaker 4: who look like you.
Speaker 3: You could have maybe.
Speaker 4: Back in the nineteen fifties when workplaces were dominated with
Speaker 4: one type of person, but you can't do that today.
Speaker 2: You know that that was actually something Michelle I wanted
Speaker 2: to ask you in terms of building networks, I get it,
Speaker 2: like the importance of having a diverse network. But I mean,
Speaker 2: what is the right network to build? Is it people?
Speaker 2: You know, we've talked about sponsors and mentors in the past,
Speaker 2: but what is diversity?
Speaker 3: I get?
Speaker 2: But if you really want to move ahead, you know,
Speaker 2: people talk about managing up and like, you know, making
Speaker 2: sure that you're kind of in with the people who
Speaker 2: are making decisions about hiring or maybe pulling you over
Speaker 2: to a new job. You know, what else do you
Speaker 2: we need to kind of be smart about when it
Speaker 2: comes to networking.
Speaker 4: So I actually share in the book how you can
Speaker 4: map your informal network. So when you think of an
Speaker 4: informal network, most people think of a cocktail out and
Speaker 4: it sort of dredges up horrible images of having to
Speaker 4: introduce yourself to strangers. That's not an informal network. So
Speaker 4: if you were to write a list of everybody you
Speaker 4: go to for their information on how to do your job,
Speaker 4: advice or social support, that's your informal network, and generally
Speaker 4: it's about twelve to twenty four people. Now, to build
Speaker 4: a healthy, helpful informal network, you really need sort three
Speaker 4: core ingredients. So the first to your point is you
Speaker 4: want to try and have a network that's made up
Speaker 4: of people who don't really share your background. But the
Speaker 4: second thing you want to think about is are you
Speaker 4: building relationships that are mutually beneficial?
Speaker 3: Because we have limited.
Speaker 4: Time and energy to invest in relationships, so we have
Speaker 4: to think about, you know, where we're spending our time.
Speaker 4: So it's okay to not network with people who don't
Speaker 4: have your back and where they don't have your best
Speaker 4: interest at heart, but it's.
Speaker 3: That group where you're unsure.
Speaker 4: So ninety percent of anxiety at work comes from five
Speaker 4: percent of the people in your informal networks. So you
Speaker 4: want to make sure you're not investing in those ambiguous
Speaker 4: relationships right where you're not sure if this person has
Speaker 4: your back. You want to invest in those mutually beneficial relationships.
Speaker 4: And then finally, you really want to make sure you've
Speaker 4: got a mix of what we call close versus loose connections.
Speaker 4: So most of the job information or information on vacancies
Speaker 4: or opportunities comes through what we call loose connections. So
Speaker 4: people who more like acquaintances that you might sort of
Speaker 4: catch up with relatively sort of infrequently, but those close connections,
Speaker 4: that's where you get all the social support. So you
Speaker 4: really want to mix. So it's those three things are
Speaker 4: the magic ingredients for having a strong network.
Speaker 1: What if you don't have a choice about whether you
Speaker 1: invest your time with these people who are not you know,
Speaker 1: it's not mutually beneficial. What if you have to because
Speaker 1: they are colleagues you have to work with.
Speaker 4: Yeah, So I think that's it's different from a formal
Speaker 4: versus informal network.
Speaker 3: So an informal network is.
Speaker 4: Where you can make a choice in terms of where
Speaker 4: you're spending your time. I think if you're an in
Speaker 4: an ambiguous relationship with somebody, so where you're not sure
Speaker 4: if they have your back or not, I think what
Speaker 4: you have to recognize is that is an ambiguous relationship.
Speaker 4: So it's actually the not knowing that does our heads
Speaker 4: and where you have an interaction, you walk away and
Speaker 4: then you're like, oh, you know, how did that go?
Speaker 4: Why did they do that? You spend all that mental
Speaker 4: and emotional energy. That's what causes anxiety, That's what causes stress.
Speaker 4: So I think it's actually being able to categorize, Hey,
Speaker 4: you know, what category does this person fall into when
Speaker 4: it comes to is this mutually beneficial relationship or not?
Speaker 4: So just the knowing is helpful I think the second
Speaker 4: thing though, is recognizing there are people you have to
Speaker 4: engage with as part of doing your job. That's more
Speaker 4: of a formal network. The informal network, though, is where
Speaker 4: you're spending your time and to grow that you want
Speaker 4: to think about, you know, while your network gives you
Speaker 4: access to information, advice and support, if you want to
Speaker 4: grow your informal network, so you see people who you
Speaker 4: would like to develop connections with.
Speaker 3: One way to do that is to.
Speaker 4: Pay it forward by giving them access to informal information,
Speaker 4: advice or support.
Speaker 3: That's how you grow a network.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that makes it not an awful lot of sense. Michelle,
Speaker 2: Thank you so much, really appreciate it. Michelle King, author
Speaker 2: of a new book How Work Works, The Subtle Signs
Speaker 2: of getting ahead without losing yourself. Joining us on Zoom
Speaker 2: from the UK. But it is interesting, like the subtle
Speaker 2: differences between the types of networks. Right, there are networks
Speaker 2: you have to work with and then there are those
Speaker 2: that you think about, Okay, wait a minute, like maybe
Speaker 2: by developing this relationship it'll be beneficial to me.
Speaker 1: So different in person versus hybrid.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it has to be right,