WEBVTT - Private Judges and the Jolie-Pitt Custody Battle 0:00:03.200 --> 0:00:07.960 This is Bloombird Law with June Brasso from Bloomberg Radio. 0:00:09.160 --> 0:00:12.080 In the Buoy, Mr and Mrs Smith Brad Pitt and 0:00:12.119 --> 0:00:16.560 Angelina Joe Lee are married assassins working for competing agencies 0:00:16.600 --> 0:00:21.040 who repeatedly try to kill each other off. Sweetheart, I 0:00:21.079 --> 0:00:23.599 have an unusual problem Jane, who obviously want me dead, 0:00:24.520 --> 0:00:27.960 and I'm less and less concerned fear well being. So 0:00:28.000 --> 0:00:34.120 what do we do? Sweetheart? Come to Daddy? Who did? Daddy? 0:00:34.200 --> 0:00:40.959 Now still baby? In real life, Pitt and Joe Lee 0:00:41.000 --> 0:00:44.160 are involved in another kind of fight, a drawn out 0:00:44.240 --> 0:00:48.200 constanty battle over their five minor children, and Joe Lee 0:00:48.240 --> 0:00:51.199 has won the latest round, winning a court decision that 0:00:51.280 --> 0:00:54.560 means the custody fight, which was nearing an end, could 0:00:54.640 --> 0:00:58.280 just be getting started. Joining me a celebrity divorce attorney, 0:00:58.320 --> 0:01:02.880 Christopher Melcher of Waltzer Mal Chair to put this into context, 0:01:03.240 --> 0:01:06.280 this is a custody fight that's been going on for 0:01:06.480 --> 0:01:09.200 something like five years. One of the kids is already 0:01:09.680 --> 0:01:12.640 is nineteen and not subject to custody arrangement, so this 0:01:12.680 --> 0:01:15.240 has been going on for a long time. It is 0:01:15.360 --> 0:01:21.160 the divorce started in and they've been fighting over custody 0:01:21.200 --> 0:01:25.200 from the beginning with allegations by Angelina that there was 0:01:25.840 --> 0:01:29.200 some kind of violent or abusive problem on an airplane 0:01:29.800 --> 0:01:34.080 and that led to investigations and I think some monitored 0:01:34.160 --> 0:01:37.560 visitation that Brad had submitted to. And it's just been 0:01:37.600 --> 0:01:40.880 going on and on for five years, which is is 0:01:40.920 --> 0:01:45.320 this damaging the kids. I've heard about divorce where there 0:01:45.360 --> 0:01:48.360 is a custody battle and then years later, you know 0:01:48.360 --> 0:01:52.520 there's a renewed custody battle to change the visitation schedule 0:01:52.680 --> 0:01:56.120 or whatever. Has this been just going on continually. This 0:01:56.200 --> 0:01:59.639 is the first time there's been a decision in the case. 0:02:00.360 --> 0:02:04.000 So the case has had different facets to it. There 0:02:04.120 --> 0:02:08.079 was the terminating their marital status to restore them as 0:02:08.080 --> 0:02:11.480 single people. There was dealing with some property issues, and 0:02:11.520 --> 0:02:14.000 then custody has been coming in and out of the 0:02:14.080 --> 0:02:19.200 case over the years. There was a request by Brad 0:02:19.320 --> 0:02:24.760 last year for equal custody time and that's when Angelina 0:02:24.919 --> 0:02:31.160 really started to oppose this and was also being criticized 0:02:31.200 --> 0:02:37.040 by the judge going back to I believe of her 0:02:37.560 --> 0:02:43.200 refusal to share more custody time with Brad. Understandably, Angelina's 0:02:43.280 --> 0:02:47.080 claiming that it wouldn't be safe for the kids to 0:02:47.160 --> 0:02:50.280 be with Brad so much time. That's her view of 0:02:50.320 --> 0:02:53.640 the world. The judge didn't agree with that and wanted 0:02:53.639 --> 0:02:57.639 Brad to have more custody time. And it was after 0:02:57.880 --> 0:03:01.280 the judge was making those moves that Jelina sought to 0:03:01.320 --> 0:03:05.880 disqualify the judge. I understand in cases where a parent 0:03:06.280 --> 0:03:10.160 claims the other is abusive that sometimes they need to 0:03:10.200 --> 0:03:12.280 go in and fight for custody, and it can go 0:03:12.360 --> 0:03:15.520 on for a long time. But a parent needs to 0:03:15.600 --> 0:03:19.120 see that the cost of the litigation, the harm that's 0:03:19.160 --> 0:03:22.760 done by an ongoing custody dispute in it of itself 0:03:22.840 --> 0:03:27.440 has an effect on kids. So a California appeals court 0:03:27.560 --> 0:03:31.440 agreed with Joe Lee that the private judge deciding who 0:03:31.480 --> 0:03:35.880 gets custody of the children should be disqualified because he 0:03:36.000 --> 0:03:41.320 failed to sufficiently disclose business relationships with Pitt's attorneys. First 0:03:41.360 --> 0:03:46.240 of all, what exactly is a private judge in California? 0:03:46.600 --> 0:03:50.720 Under our constitution or state constitution. The parties to a 0:03:50.840 --> 0:03:55.800 case may agree to the appointment of a temporary judge. 0:03:56.360 --> 0:04:00.800 This is usually somebody who's a retired public judge, as 0:04:00.800 --> 0:04:03.080 in the case of Judge Outer Kirk here, or it 0:04:03.080 --> 0:04:06.080 can be an attorney with ten or more years of experience. 0:04:06.680 --> 0:04:10.200 So our law allows for the appointment of a decision 0:04:10.240 --> 0:04:14.560 maker in the superior court or trial courts would then 0:04:14.600 --> 0:04:18.600 appoint that person to serve and be granted pretty much 0:04:18.640 --> 0:04:21.440 all the powers that a regular judge would have, And 0:04:21.480 --> 0:04:25.800 that's a commonplace in bigger cases because the parties get 0:04:25.880 --> 0:04:30.560 to select someone who they think would be fair and 0:04:30.680 --> 0:04:33.800 who was experienced in the type of matter that they have. 0:04:34.320 --> 0:04:38.200 It gives the parties the full attention of that judicial 0:04:38.240 --> 0:04:41.880 officer rather than going to public court who may have 0:04:42.080 --> 0:04:45.719 twenty matters on their calendar per day. It's just really 0:04:45.760 --> 0:04:48.760 talking about minutes rather than hours that can be spent 0:04:49.000 --> 0:04:52.760 on each case. So this is something that's the feature 0:04:53.040 --> 0:04:57.440 of pretty much every celebrity case and certainly the big 0:04:57.480 --> 0:05:01.599 dollar cases. They are using these temporary judges. But the 0:05:01.680 --> 0:05:06.000 controversy is that they're paid, and does this create two 0:05:06.080 --> 0:05:09.599 systems of justice, one for the very wealthy and one 0:05:09.680 --> 0:05:12.960 for everybody else? And so there has been debate over 0:05:13.000 --> 0:05:15.400 the years about this, and we saw it crop up 0:05:15.440 --> 0:05:18.640 in this opinion by the California Court of Appeal that's 0:05:18.720 --> 0:05:22.000 been critical of that system. And how much are these 0:05:22.040 --> 0:05:27.760 private judges paid, so the parties can select this temporary 0:05:27.880 --> 0:05:31.200 judge by agreement, so it cannot be forced on a party. 0:05:31.560 --> 0:05:35.880 And the hourly rates for a private judge in California 0:05:35.920 --> 0:05:40.160 would range from five hundred dollars to maybe a thousand 0:05:40.160 --> 0:05:43.040 dollars an hour, and that's pretty much in line with 0:05:43.120 --> 0:05:46.360 what these parties would be paying their counsel, and just 0:05:46.400 --> 0:05:48.960 depends on how long the case would go on. We've 0:05:49.000 --> 0:05:51.960 seen certainly hundreds of thousands of dollars and fees be 0:05:52.040 --> 0:05:55.320 paid to a temporary judge, and even millions of dollars 0:05:55.360 --> 0:05:58.880 and fees in the very long cases. It sounds like 0:05:59.000 --> 0:06:02.320 a lot of money and certainly is to pay this 0:06:02.440 --> 0:06:05.159 decision maker. But there is a cost of going to 0:06:05.240 --> 0:06:08.919 public court for the parties, not really in paying the court, 0:06:08.960 --> 0:06:11.919 of course, but a cost to the litigants of having 0:06:11.960 --> 0:06:15.160 to pay their attorneys and expert witnesses for a hearing 0:06:15.640 --> 0:06:19.040 that may never happen. It actually could cost them less 0:06:19.080 --> 0:06:22.200 money to pay this temporary judge to hear their matter 0:06:22.800 --> 0:06:25.520 rather than the uncertainty of going to a public court 0:06:25.760 --> 0:06:29.520 and wasting perhaps many, many thousands of dollars for a 0:06:29.560 --> 0:06:33.040 hearing that never went forward. So the custody battle has 0:06:33.080 --> 0:06:36.760 been going on for about five years. Judge outer Kirk 0:06:36.880 --> 0:06:41.360 makes a tentative decision giving joint custody of the children, 0:06:41.640 --> 0:06:44.599 and Jolie says, the judge has a conflict. But he 0:06:44.640 --> 0:06:48.359 officiated at their weddings, so both parties know him. I 0:06:48.440 --> 0:06:51.400 don't know how he found himself in that role, but 0:06:51.560 --> 0:06:55.640 he officiated their marriage and then he was selected to 0:06:55.760 --> 0:07:01.560 officiate their divorce. He was agreed upon counseled by both 0:07:01.680 --> 0:07:06.920 parties when they appointed him years ago, and when they 0:07:06.960 --> 0:07:10.480 selected Judge outer Kirk, he was obligated to make a 0:07:10.480 --> 0:07:15.160 disclosure of other cases that Judge outer Kirk had with 0:07:15.200 --> 0:07:18.800 the counsel for either party, and he made that disclosure. 0:07:18.960 --> 0:07:21.880 Judge outer Kirk disclosed that he had some cases with 0:07:21.960 --> 0:07:25.640 Brad's counsel and he also had some cases with Angelina's 0:07:25.640 --> 0:07:28.960 counsel at the time, Laura Wasser, and they were all 0:07:29.080 --> 0:07:32.920 fine with that knowledge that Judge outerer Kirk was handling 0:07:32.960 --> 0:07:36.200 cases for counsel for other parties that either Brad or 0:07:36.240 --> 0:07:40.920 Angelina's counsel were representing them in those other matters. For compensation, 0:07:41.360 --> 0:07:45.840 Judge outer Kirk's appointment was given for a limited duration, 0:07:46.120 --> 0:07:50.520 and each time that expired he was reappointed by further 0:07:50.600 --> 0:07:54.200 agreement of the parties, and he made some further disclosures 0:07:54.200 --> 0:07:58.840 of other cases that he had with counsel for either party. Eventually, 0:07:59.680 --> 0:08:04.720 Laura Wasser exits and Angelina is now represented by a 0:08:04.760 --> 0:08:08.680 different lawyer who's in San Francisco. And after Judge pouter 0:08:08.800 --> 0:08:14.320 Kirk had been reappointed, his appointment order went through December 0:08:16.080 --> 0:08:19.640 or until a judgment of custody was made, whichever was later. 0:08:20.280 --> 0:08:23.640 So he had been appointed, he made his disclosures at 0:08:23.680 --> 0:08:28.760 the time, and after Brad had filed for joint custody, 0:08:28.880 --> 0:08:35.319 Angelina's new lawyer innocently apparently asked for an updated disclosure 0:08:35.559 --> 0:08:38.640 out of the blue, even though the appointment order was 0:08:38.720 --> 0:08:42.520 not coming up for renewal, and Joe joder Kirk responded 0:08:42.640 --> 0:08:46.200 with two or three additional matters that he had with 0:08:46.240 --> 0:08:51.000 Brad's counsel. And that's when Angelina cried foul. It smacked 0:08:51.040 --> 0:08:56.120 of strategy and tactics. And this was noted by Brad's 0:08:56.160 --> 0:08:59.400 counsel and even by one of the justices at the 0:08:59.440 --> 0:09:02.200 court of a real argument. There was a comment that 0:09:02.520 --> 0:09:06.360 why was it okay for Angelina to accept Judge outer 0:09:06.480 --> 0:09:11.680 Kirk knowing that he had twelve prior paid assignments by 0:09:11.679 --> 0:09:14.720 Brad's accouncil. But it was not okay when she learned 0:09:14.760 --> 0:09:17.680 it might be fourteen or fifteen. And I thought that 0:09:17.880 --> 0:09:23.200 remark was cynical, critical of Angelina's position. That would have 0:09:23.240 --> 0:09:27.280 been telegraphing that she was raising really a technical argument, 0:09:27.360 --> 0:09:30.880 not an ethical breach. But the appeals Court found that 0:09:30.960 --> 0:09:34.240 he had committed an ethical breach that might cause an 0:09:34.240 --> 0:09:38.240 objective person, aware of all the facts, reasonably to entertain 0:09:38.280 --> 0:09:41.360 a doubt as to the judge's ability to be impartial. 0:09:41.640 --> 0:09:44.320 Why did they come to that decision considering all that 0:09:44.360 --> 0:09:48.840 you've told us. That's what makes cases unpredictable. That the 0:09:48.920 --> 0:09:52.880 court could have found that the failure to disclose these 0:09:52.880 --> 0:09:57.280 two or three additional matters were technical, weren't enough to 0:09:57.400 --> 0:10:01.160 cause a reasonable person to entertain doubt as to Judge 0:10:01.160 --> 0:10:05.880 outer Kirk's impartiality. And that was what I was foolishly 0:10:06.000 --> 0:10:12.079 predicting would happen, because why would a reasonable person entertained 0:10:12.080 --> 0:10:16.640 doubt as to Judge outer Kirk's impartiality knowing that there 0:10:16.640 --> 0:10:20.720 were twelve disclosed matters that Angelina and her legal team 0:10:20.800 --> 0:10:24.560 was accepting of and then adding these two or three 0:10:24.600 --> 0:10:27.400 other matters were really of the same type, with all 0:10:27.440 --> 0:10:30.240 of a sudden cast doubt as to whether Judge outer 0:10:30.360 --> 0:10:33.720 Kirk could be impartial. It makes no sense to me, 0:10:34.240 --> 0:10:37.040 but I'm not the decision maker. And the Court of 0:10:37.040 --> 0:10:41.160 Appeal said that every matter essentially could count, and that 0:10:41.280 --> 0:10:45.200 these matters count, and that this was an ethical breach. 0:10:45.600 --> 0:10:49.560 I think what's happening behind the scenes is more of 0:10:49.600 --> 0:10:53.480 a criticism of the private judging system than anything that 0:10:53.559 --> 0:10:57.240 Judge outer Kirk himself did, because if we just look 0:10:57.280 --> 0:10:59.600 at it on the facts of this case, I would 0:10:59.600 --> 0:11:01.960 think it's more of a technical than an ethical breach. 0:11:02.360 --> 0:11:06.080 And we do have the criticism in the opinion of 0:11:06.120 --> 0:11:08.880 the private judging system. And this may have been a 0:11:08.920 --> 0:11:12.360 message to private judges that if you're going to undertake 0:11:12.400 --> 0:11:15.280 this work and be paid for it, which the Court 0:11:15.280 --> 0:11:19.400 of Appeal seemed uneasy with that concept, that they better 0:11:19.679 --> 0:11:22.640 follow the rules to the tea. And they're the Court 0:11:22.640 --> 0:11:25.160 of Appeal, they get to make the rules, and that's 0:11:25.200 --> 0:11:28.439 what they said and tell us about the concurring opinion. 0:11:29.320 --> 0:11:35.640 Justice Siegel wrote a concurring opinion to express his reservations 0:11:35.679 --> 0:11:39.440 about the private judging system, and he wrote separately because 0:11:39.480 --> 0:11:42.080 that wasn't an issue that was even raised by Angelina. 0:11:42.200 --> 0:11:46.600 In her briefing, Angelina was attacking Judge outer Kirk's failure 0:11:46.679 --> 0:11:50.440 to disclose. She said that Judge outer Kirk was biased 0:11:50.480 --> 0:11:54.160 against her because he had wanted Brad to have equal 0:11:54.200 --> 0:11:58.000 custody time despite this prior alleged incident, and wouldn't let 0:11:58.000 --> 0:12:01.800 the children testify at a hearing. But she never attacked 0:12:02.120 --> 0:12:06.080 the private judging system because she had agreed to that system. 0:12:06.240 --> 0:12:09.560 Just a Siegel on his own brought up this question 0:12:09.640 --> 0:12:13.880 of can we pay a private judge? So what happens now? 0:12:14.160 --> 0:12:17.560 Do they pick another private judge and go through all 0:12:17.600 --> 0:12:22.600 the proceedings again. So Judge outer Kirk has been disqualified 0:12:22.760 --> 0:12:25.680 and the decision that Judge outer Kirk had made about 0:12:25.880 --> 0:12:30.800 joint custody for Brad never became final and is certainly void. 0:12:31.160 --> 0:12:35.960 Angelina in her briefing was careful to say that she 0:12:36.160 --> 0:12:39.680 was okay with what Judge outer Kirk was doing before 0:12:39.760 --> 0:12:42.880 he failed to disclose these two or three additional matters, 0:12:43.200 --> 0:12:46.240 and was really offended just by the actions that he 0:12:46.280 --> 0:12:50.000 took after he failed to disclose those matters and was 0:12:50.120 --> 0:12:53.240 making that argument, I believe because she wanted to preserve 0:12:53.559 --> 0:12:56.640 the other rulings that Judge outer Kirk had made, including 0:12:56.760 --> 0:13:01.359 divorcing them. And if Judge outer Kirk's rulings were invalidated 0:13:01.440 --> 0:13:04.439 from the get go, well they would still be married 0:13:04.480 --> 0:13:07.559 to each other and all the property division orders everything 0:13:07.600 --> 0:13:09.880 else in the case would also be invalidated. So I 0:13:09.880 --> 0:13:12.080 don't think she wanted that there will be a new 0:13:12.160 --> 0:13:15.840 judge appointed. That judge will be a public judge unless 0:13:15.920 --> 0:13:20.520 Angelina and Brad agree to another privately compensated judge, and 0:13:20.880 --> 0:13:23.600 that will have to go back l a superior court 0:13:23.679 --> 0:13:29.640 for assignment. And delay would benefit Angelina because the status 0:13:29.720 --> 0:13:33.480 quo is the parenting plan that exists right now, which 0:13:33.640 --> 0:13:36.560 presumably is in her favor in terms of the amount 0:13:36.559 --> 0:13:39.040 of time that she's allocated, and so the longer it 0:13:39.080 --> 0:13:42.160 goes on, the longer she has that time. Thanks Chris, 0:13:42.480 --> 0:13:47.920 that's Christopher Melcher of Waltz or Melcher. Progressive groups seeking 0:13:47.960 --> 0:13:50.560 to remake the Supreme Court had hoped to spend this 0:13:50.640 --> 0:13:54.120 summer helping win confirmation of what was expected to be 0:13:54.160 --> 0:13:58.640 the first black woman nominated as a justice instead, Justice 0:13:58.679 --> 0:14:02.520 Stephen Bryer opted not to retire, and advocates who are 0:14:02.559 --> 0:14:06.360 focused on the court's conservative bent have watched their issue 0:14:06.400 --> 0:14:10.400 mostly received from view joining me as Madison Alder Bloomberg 0:14:10.440 --> 0:14:15.760 Law Reporter. What were the progressives focused on before the 0:14:15.880 --> 0:14:19.040 end of the Supreme Court term? So this past term, 0:14:19.400 --> 0:14:22.360 the issue of Briar's retirement has really been front and 0:14:22.440 --> 0:14:26.680 center for progressive organizations like Demand Justice, which is a 0:14:26.680 --> 0:14:30.320 progressive judicial advocacy group, really put this in the front 0:14:30.360 --> 0:14:34.280 of people's minds. They had a billboard bus that was 0:14:34.520 --> 0:14:37.800 circling the Supreme Court calling for Briar to retire and 0:14:38.240 --> 0:14:41.200 that would make room for Biden to appoint the first 0:14:41.480 --> 0:14:44.080 black woman justice, which he said he would do on 0:14:44.120 --> 0:14:48.080 the campaign trail. But when the term came to a close, 0:14:48.360 --> 0:14:51.280 and you know, Briar, in an interview with Sannon said 0:14:51.280 --> 0:14:53.920 he's happy where he is on the Court and he 0:14:53.960 --> 0:14:56.640 hasn't made any decision on retirement. That kind of closed 0:14:56.640 --> 0:15:01.120 the door on this. Pretty personally said rallying cry for 0:15:01.440 --> 0:15:05.880 progressives or pretty strong rallying cry for progressives that Biden 0:15:05.920 --> 0:15:09.560 had an opportunity here to appoint the first black woman justice, 0:15:09.600 --> 0:15:13.720 and now that leaves open the possibility of other areas 0:15:13.760 --> 0:15:17.800 for progressives to try to get the attention of their 0:15:17.840 --> 0:15:22.240 constituencies and and try to keep the focus on the court. 0:15:22.760 --> 0:15:25.200 You know, we should point out that even if Briar 0:15:25.280 --> 0:15:29.480 had retired, it would have just been substituting one liberal 0:15:29.560 --> 0:15:32.840 justice for another. It wouldn't have made any change in 0:15:33.160 --> 0:15:37.880 the conservative majority on the court. Right. Brian Fallon, who 0:15:38.000 --> 0:15:41.600 is the executive director of Demand Justice, told me that 0:15:42.000 --> 0:15:45.920 they never had any illusions about Briar retiring and being 0:15:45.960 --> 0:15:50.720 replaced necessarily making an impact in some of the broader 0:15:51.080 --> 0:15:54.160 structural changes they'd like to see in the judiciary. Right, 0:15:54.280 --> 0:15:58.480 Like you said, it's replacing liberal justice with the liberal justice. 0:15:58.920 --> 0:16:02.440 They're also interested it in seeing the Supreme Court expanded 0:16:02.480 --> 0:16:06.280 and some of these changes coming about. Um, so this 0:16:06.320 --> 0:16:10.040 is something that might have helped with the margins, but 0:16:10.680 --> 0:16:13.280 in their eyes, it wasn't the end of the line. 0:16:13.960 --> 0:16:17.880 Now what's interesting is Demand Justice is working with some 0:16:18.040 --> 0:16:22.720 student groups now. So Fallon told me that the way 0:16:22.720 --> 0:16:25.880 that they're looking at keeping the attention on the court 0:16:26.640 --> 0:16:29.560 is by focusing on the next term, which is already 0:16:29.600 --> 0:16:33.120 shaping up to you know, deal with some pretty hot 0:16:33.160 --> 0:16:38.480 button issues like abortion and gun rights UM and possibly 0:16:38.480 --> 0:16:43.400 affirmative action. And so through those issues, Demand Justice is 0:16:43.480 --> 0:16:46.640 teaming up with student groups like March for Our Lives 0:16:47.280 --> 0:16:51.840 and Sunrise Movement to really highlight some of these issues 0:16:52.200 --> 0:16:55.480 going forward and kind of fire up their base. Are 0:16:55.520 --> 0:16:58.680 they anticipating that the decisions are not going to be 0:16:59.000 --> 0:17:03.520 what liberals would want to see? I think that's the position. 0:17:03.640 --> 0:17:07.480 Advocacy group typically taken these kinds of scenarios and there's 0:17:07.520 --> 0:17:09.800 a hot button issue, and especially given the sixth three 0:17:09.840 --> 0:17:13.600 majority of the majority at the Superhan Court, they are 0:17:13.720 --> 0:17:18.800 always going to advocate for um the fact that they 0:17:18.840 --> 0:17:21.760 could possibly get the result that they're looking for in 0:17:21.800 --> 0:17:24.639 these cases. It doesn't necessarily mean that that's going to happen, 0:17:24.840 --> 0:17:29.520 but you know, if the justices vote, uh maybe in 0:17:29.640 --> 0:17:32.760 line with the political parties that appointed them, that that 0:17:32.840 --> 0:17:36.760 could be the result. One group, She Will Rise. I 0:17:36.800 --> 0:17:39.320 hadn't heard of this group before. Tell me about that group. 0:17:40.600 --> 0:17:44.679 So She Will Rise is an initiative that was first 0:17:44.680 --> 0:17:48.520 started and incubated under Demand Justice, as that was described 0:17:48.560 --> 0:17:52.520 to me, and then it has moved under a new 0:17:52.680 --> 0:17:57.240 organization called Take Creative Control UM and it is squarely 0:17:57.280 --> 0:18:02.080 focused on advocacy surrounding appointing the first black woman justice 0:18:02.080 --> 0:18:04.680 to the Supreme Court. So some of their work has 0:18:04.760 --> 0:18:09.960 been painting a mural in in the Shaw neighborhood of Washington, 0:18:10.040 --> 0:18:14.040 d c UM that depicts black women and the Supreme 0:18:14.040 --> 0:18:18.400 Court kind of envisioning this idea of a black woman justice. UM. 0:18:18.440 --> 0:18:22.600 They also collected, you know, a huge group photo of 0:18:23.400 --> 0:18:26.040 a whole bunch of black girls who were dressed in 0:18:26.119 --> 0:18:29.640 judicial roads to kind of show what the future would 0:18:29.680 --> 0:18:34.200 look like for the Court. And so their advocacy is 0:18:34.320 --> 0:18:37.520 kind of in that. Vein and Kim Tigner, who who 0:18:37.560 --> 0:18:41.720 co founded this organization, told me UM that they're they're 0:18:41.760 --> 0:18:45.640 planning on keeping the focus on that by supporting Biden's 0:18:46.040 --> 0:18:49.440 judicial nominees, many of which has been black women. UM, 0:18:49.560 --> 0:18:54.359 and kind of supporting this pipeline that's building for black 0:18:54.400 --> 0:18:57.560 women judges and creating the foundation for the first black 0:18:57.600 --> 0:19:01.760 woman justice on the Supreme Court. You're also focusing on 0:19:02.240 --> 0:19:05.720 the clerks at the Supreme Court. Do they get demographic 0:19:05.840 --> 0:19:10.239 information about the law clerks that the justices employ. So 0:19:10.320 --> 0:19:13.720 that's not something that the Court typically readily gives out, 0:19:13.760 --> 0:19:16.240 but UM, it's one of the areas. She said it 0:19:16.240 --> 0:19:20.920 was an example of something that her organization is going 0:19:20.960 --> 0:19:23.600 to you know, prompts the Supreme Court on is going 0:19:23.640 --> 0:19:28.080 to ask about demographic information about clerks, because that is, 0:19:28.600 --> 0:19:31.879 as she explained, it, a pipeline in itself to becoming 0:19:31.880 --> 0:19:36.400 a future justice. So Madison Brian Fallon of Demand Justice 0:19:37.000 --> 0:19:39.560 said he expects more people to call on Briar to 0:19:39.600 --> 0:19:43.560 step down next summer, So likely if these calls are 0:19:43.600 --> 0:19:47.680 going to take place again when there is another opportunity 0:19:47.760 --> 0:19:50.879 for prior to retire. Of course, he could retire at 0:19:50.920 --> 0:19:53.120 any point, but it is more likely that he would 0:19:53.119 --> 0:19:56.320 did this at the end of a Supreme Court term 0:19:56.359 --> 0:19:59.960 and when that happens. Uh Balan said he could see 0:20:00.160 --> 0:20:03.160 potentially more people getting on board with a more Democrats 0:20:03.160 --> 0:20:07.280 getting on board with this um because their biggest critics 0:20:07.680 --> 0:20:13.440 during this past session were people who said, give Briar's face, 0:20:13.640 --> 0:20:15.440 give him the benefit of the doubt, maybe he will 0:20:15.480 --> 0:20:19.879 retire and in in falonce you uh, those people now 0:20:20.040 --> 0:20:23.960 might be a little bit more uh willing to call 0:20:24.000 --> 0:20:26.040 on him to retire now that he has already not 0:20:26.119 --> 0:20:29.359 done at once. So they believe that calls will grow 0:20:29.920 --> 0:20:32.720 at the end of next term. After the Cenni interview, 0:20:33.480 --> 0:20:36.679 it seems like, you know, Briar is not even considering 0:20:37.080 --> 0:20:40.600 retirement at this point and loving the role he's in, 0:20:41.040 --> 0:20:44.800 which is remarkably similar to what happened with the late 0:20:45.240 --> 0:20:48.760 Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg who became the leader of the 0:20:49.000 --> 0:20:52.639 liberal block and held onto it and there's nothing that 0:20:52.720 --> 0:20:55.959 can be done to force him to retire. Right, this 0:20:56.040 --> 0:21:00.400 is ultimately Briar's decision, and as he said that interview 0:21:00.520 --> 0:21:04.320 your he's happy where he is. But since then, um on, 0:21:04.720 --> 0:21:10.640 then again Amy Klobatar during Clobatar, she kind of uh 0:21:11.119 --> 0:21:15.280 said Briar should should potentially think about retiring as soon 0:21:15.320 --> 0:21:18.119 as possible. Um So, you know, it's already something that 0:21:18.440 --> 0:21:21.639 we're seeing Democrats continue to talk about, even if the 0:21:21.760 --> 0:21:25.439 calls don't feel like this is something that could immediately 0:21:25.880 --> 0:21:31.840 take place now Because are liberals disappointed in the commission 0:21:32.680 --> 0:21:35.960 that's been set up by the White House to examine 0:21:36.520 --> 0:21:41.800 issues surrounding the court, Well, there's certainly have been some 0:21:41.920 --> 0:21:47.119 criticisms of this commission. Early on, there were criticisms that, uh, 0:21:47.160 --> 0:21:50.399 they were potentially going to talk about issues and not 0:21:50.520 --> 0:21:54.000 really come to any solutions. The commission is set up 0:21:54.119 --> 0:22:00.119 to to not give recommendations specifically, it's going to do 0:22:00.600 --> 0:22:03.040 an exploration of a lot of the reforms that could 0:22:03.040 --> 0:22:06.920 happen at the Supreme Court, but not necessarily be prescriptive 0:22:07.119 --> 0:22:10.800 to the president. UM. So that was that was something 0:22:10.920 --> 0:22:12.840 that I think some of these groups have taken issue with. 0:22:13.400 --> 0:22:16.639 But more recently, Uh, you know, we've seen now that 0:22:16.680 --> 0:22:20.440 we've we've had witnesses come before the commission and UM, 0:22:20.520 --> 0:22:25.399 they've done more publication meetings. Uh, there have been criticisms 0:22:25.440 --> 0:22:29.439 that it isn't very reflective of the people that the 0:22:29.440 --> 0:22:32.720 Supreme Court decision has impact most and looks a lot 0:22:32.880 --> 0:22:36.359 like an academic conference. UM. A lot of the people 0:22:36.560 --> 0:22:41.159 attended the same law schools. UM. There was actually a 0:22:41.200 --> 0:22:44.680 few moments in some of the recent hearings where someone 0:22:44.760 --> 0:22:48.520 was speaking to their former professor UM or their former student. 0:22:48.800 --> 0:22:51.359 It happened a couple of times with the most recent hearing, 0:22:51.960 --> 0:22:54.719 and advocates say that, you know, this is an issue, 0:22:54.800 --> 0:22:59.000 because this is an urgent issue, the issue of the 0:22:59.040 --> 0:23:03.159 Supreme Court UM and not being representative of the American public, 0:23:03.640 --> 0:23:08.760 and if they want to create a solution, they should 0:23:08.840 --> 0:23:12.919 include people who are most impacted by this decision. It 0:23:12.960 --> 0:23:15.000 seems that packing the court is the only way they're 0:23:15.040 --> 0:23:18.680 really going to change the conservative majority on the Court, 0:23:18.760 --> 0:23:22.560 at least to me. But it's such an uphill battle 0:23:23.080 --> 0:23:25.880 to the progressive groups you've talked to really have any 0:23:26.000 --> 0:23:29.359 hope that that could be accomplished, that they could pack 0:23:29.440 --> 0:23:33.080 the court. So I spoke a little bit to Brian 0:23:33.119 --> 0:23:36.920 Fellon about this again. He's the executive director at Demand Justice, 0:23:37.200 --> 0:23:40.879 and he told me that they know that this isn't 0:23:41.000 --> 0:23:46.000 something immediate. Right the sixty vote threshold is for legislation 0:23:46.280 --> 0:23:48.640 is still in place in the Senate, and it doesn't 0:23:48.720 --> 0:23:51.119 look like that's going anywhere for the time being. So 0:23:51.280 --> 0:23:56.120 Democrats can't just approve an expansion of the Supreme Court 0:23:56.119 --> 0:23:58.320 on their own. They would likely need Republican support and 0:23:58.359 --> 0:24:01.520 that is not going to happen. So they know that 0:24:01.640 --> 0:24:04.880 this is something that that they aren't going to achieve 0:24:05.000 --> 0:24:08.560 in the short term, but he sees that as as 0:24:08.600 --> 0:24:11.320 a long term goal. You know, may be similar to 0:24:12.280 --> 0:24:15.679 the way that the calls to get rid of the 0:24:15.760 --> 0:24:21.080 legiblative filibuster have been uh increasing over over the years, 0:24:21.320 --> 0:24:26.000 Maybe support among Democrats for court reform and especially for 0:24:26.560 --> 0:24:29.639 Supreme Court expansion would grow over time. You know, you 0:24:29.720 --> 0:24:33.840 always hear about Demand Justice, but there's another advocacy group, 0:24:33.960 --> 0:24:38.160 Alliance for Justice, that's been around a lot longer, and 0:24:38.280 --> 0:24:42.160 the founder is going to leave after forty two years. 0:24:42.680 --> 0:24:45.800 So Nan Aaron, who is the founder of the Alliance 0:24:45.840 --> 0:24:50.360 for Justice, is stepping down. She announced this in January. 0:24:50.440 --> 0:24:54.000 It's going to be effective in September, and um she's 0:24:54.000 --> 0:24:57.000 going to be replaced with Rakim Brookes who is an 0:24:57.040 --> 0:24:59.720 a c l U strategist and he's going to be 0:24:59.800 --> 0:25:02.840 take being over over that role and over the organization, 0:25:02.880 --> 0:25:07.040 which is a really key organization for progressives when it 0:25:07.080 --> 0:25:13.040 comes to UH judiciary issues, including judicial nominations, and Nan 0:25:13.080 --> 0:25:18.800 Aaron has definitely been a prominent figure in the judicial 0:25:18.800 --> 0:25:22.760 nomination space for for liberals. So you have Demand Justice, 0:25:22.880 --> 0:25:27.639 Alliance for Justice. What other liberal or progressive judicial advocacy 0:25:27.680 --> 0:25:30.719 groups are they're out there. On the court reform side, 0:25:30.760 --> 0:25:34.520 there is take Back the Court that is an organization 0:25:34.560 --> 0:25:38.960 that is also pushing for Supreme Court reform and UM 0:25:39.000 --> 0:25:43.879 specifically pushing for you know, basically anything that would expand 0:25:44.200 --> 0:25:47.520 or great term limits, that sort of thing. And then 0:25:47.560 --> 0:25:51.200 you also have People's Parody Project which is mostly a 0:25:51.280 --> 0:25:55.359 student led and young lawyer led group. Um, they're fairly new. 0:25:55.600 --> 0:26:00.000 They have been pretty vocal in the last few months 0:26:00.400 --> 0:26:05.280 on the briar fronts and also on judicial nominations, pushing 0:26:05.400 --> 0:26:09.400 for more diversity in those nominations. So I think those 0:26:09.400 --> 0:26:12.760 are kind of the fours that come to mind for 0:26:12.800 --> 0:26:16.440 me at least, Demand Justice, Alliance for Justice, Take Back 0:26:16.440 --> 0:26:18.880