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Speaker 1: Bodybags with Joseph Scott Morgan as a former death investigator.

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Speaker 1: There's any number of names I've been called over the years.

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Speaker 1: I think that people have a real discomfort with death.

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Speaker 1: They have a real discomfort around things involving the dead,

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Speaker 1: and it's almost comical many times. I guess the first

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Speaker 1: one I remember is, Hey, you're just like Quincy. And

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Speaker 1: to bring it up to more modern times, probably Dexter.

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Speaker 1: People will refer to me as Dexter. Hey, you're just

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Speaker 1: like Dexter, And of course I always say no, I'm not.

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Speaker 1: I'm not a serial killer. But traditionally, I guess the

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Speaker 1: one thing that people have equate me with, because it's

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Speaker 1: that imagery that comes to mind, is the grim Reaper.

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Speaker 1: That's pretty horrible in and of itself you think about it. Today,

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Speaker 1: we're going to talk about a man that actually rode

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Speaker 1: around in a car, and he worked for very prestigious institution.

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Speaker 1: And the car that he wrote around in it had

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Speaker 1: a vanity plate. And on that vanity plate where the

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Speaker 1: letters g R I M. DASH are. Now, I don't

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Speaker 1: know what that means to you, but it sounds suspiciously

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Speaker 1: like the Reaper himself. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this

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Speaker 1: is Bodybacks. Dave. We were talking about names just a

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Speaker 1: while ago, and isn't it interesting when you get involved

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Speaker 1: in whatever your career track is, there are some monikers

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Speaker 1: I guess that are hung on you. Maybe people forget

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Speaker 1: your name. I don't know. Did people ever refer to

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Speaker 1: you as the radio guy?

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Speaker 2: Oh buddy? Still you get called all kinds of things.

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Speaker 2: And I've wondered that about you because when I explain

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Speaker 2: who you are, most of them already know who you

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Speaker 2: are because they've seen you on TV over the last

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Speaker 2: ten to fifteen years, so they know you do something

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Speaker 2: with criminal stuff. And then when I try to explain

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Speaker 2: he's a professor, try to lay it all out there,

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Speaker 2: and ultimately it comes back to the dude deals with

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Speaker 2: bones in DNA, and I don't really know how to

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Speaker 2: explain it. But these people that we're going to be

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Speaker 2: talking about today, and I see people because we've got

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Speaker 2: to start with one. But boy, what is it? Scratch

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Speaker 2: a liar, find a thief?

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Speaker 1: You know, I've never heard that before. Really. I've heard

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Speaker 1: about pulling the thread on the sweater and the whole

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Speaker 1: thing comes unraveled. But scratch give it to him again.

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Speaker 2: Scratch a liar, Find a thief.

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Speaker 1: Scratch a liar, Find a thief. Wow, okay, I'm following

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Speaker 1: that one away. I hope you don't have that copyright.

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Speaker 2: I got it from Ray, the movie about Ray Charles.

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Speaker 1: Oh, holy smokes. Okay, well there you go.

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Speaker 2: But bottom lining it, this goes to the heart and

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Speaker 2: soul of human beings and how we treat people when

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Speaker 2: they're alive and when they're dead, and the efforts we

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Speaker 2: go to be respectful. What we're going to be talking

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Speaker 2: about today, if nothing else, is the most disrespectful thing

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Speaker 2: I can think of happening to somebody without their family

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Speaker 2: knowing or anybody else. It's a story I didn't think

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Speaker 2: I would ever see, Joe. I'm going to be honest

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Speaker 2: with you. I know, crazy stuff happens. But when you

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Speaker 2: start mentioning Harvard, I tend to on the level goes up.

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Speaker 1: How do you measure respect for the dead? On an

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Speaker 1: interesting little side, there was a story that came out

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Speaker 1: many years ago, and if you remember, I don't know

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Speaker 1: if you remember, the old newspaper insert magazine that would

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Speaker 1: come out in the Sunday papers called Parade. When you

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Speaker 1: open the Sunday paper, the coupons fallout and parade falls out,

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Speaker 1: and there was a feature article in there about a

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Speaker 1: mortician that lived in miss I think it was Mississippi,

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Speaker 1: and her family had owned this mortuary for years and years.

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Speaker 1: But there was this old gentleman that she regarded in

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Speaker 1: a fatherly way, and he had no family members and

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Speaker 1: he worked around the funeral home. Her family was apparently

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Speaker 1: gone her dad and genuinely loved this man, really loved him.

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Speaker 1: It was really creepy because what she had done is

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Speaker 1: that when this guy died, she had him embalmed there

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Speaker 1: in the facility that she owned, and dave she took

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Speaker 1: his body and stood him up in the corner of

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Speaker 1: her home and left him there if aestuoned in his

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Speaker 1: son to go to meeting. The article talked about how

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Speaker 1: she would have to touch up his makeup every now

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Speaker 1: and then. But there was this image of her sitting

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Speaker 1: on you know how they take those fish eye lens

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Speaker 1: images on these magazines, and she was seated on her

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Speaker 1: sofa and over her left or right shoulder is this

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Speaker 1: guy's corpse in the background. And people had allowed this

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Speaker 1: to go go on. Now I can't say that that's

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Speaker 1: necessarily disrespectful. But certain people when you begin to think

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Speaker 1: about how you honor the dead, how you take care

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Speaker 1: of them, because let's face it, we can get off

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Speaker 1: into a spiritual realm here and say that the dead

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Speaker 1: are no longer people. I think their families would argue

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Speaker 1: that they still are because that body, that shell that

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Speaker 1: remains is still representative of that individual and a life

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Speaker 1: that they lived, and how you treat those remains. Arguably,

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Speaker 1: if you want to think about the dead or the

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Speaker 1: most defenseless, right, I mean, there's nothing they can do

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Speaker 1: if you try to violate them in any way. And

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Speaker 1: so there's this built in trust that people that work

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Speaker 1: in the mortuary industry and those that are in the

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Speaker 1: anatomical gift industry. It's kind of unspoken. You know that

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Speaker 1: you're supposed to honor the dead, and in this case

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Speaker 1: it would seem at least that wasn't the case.

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Speaker 2: In this particular case. This is where the FBI. When

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Speaker 2: the FBI does a raid, oftentimes the search warrant is

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Speaker 2: always very specific as to what they're after. In particular,

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Speaker 2: the man of James not living in Kentucky, FBI comes

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Speaker 2: to raid his place. Now he is a man who

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Speaker 2: has a little bit of a record. I don't want

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Speaker 2: to dismiss it, but he did have past history with

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Speaker 2: crime and he was not allowed to own a gun.

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Speaker 2: When the FBI or local authorities think you are a

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Speaker 2: convicted felon who is not allowed to have a gun

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Speaker 2: and something pops up on their radar, they're going to

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Speaker 2: go look. And so the FBI raids this home of

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Speaker 2: mister James not in Bullock County, Kentucky, and what they

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Speaker 2: find forty human skulls. But that's not all. They find

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Speaker 2: spinal cords that are being used as decorations. They find

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Speaker 2: femurs and hip bones. And I don't know because I've

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Speaker 2: never handled these, but Joe Scott Morgan, I'm going to

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Speaker 2: be willing to bet that femurs from a bone standpoint

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Speaker 2: are pretty thick and big. When it comes to human beings.

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Speaker 1: Oh boy, you've got the pelvis and the hip So

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Speaker 1: if you're thinking about those, they're very robust. They're spinal cords.

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Speaker 1: But my suspicion is here that we're talking about vertebra.

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Speaker 1: You know, they're saying this guy had spinal cords, and

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Speaker 1: I'm not saying that he couldn't. As a matter of fact,

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Speaker 1: I've got to say probably in the morgue when we

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Speaker 1: do detailed dissections on bodies, and it will do it

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Speaker 1: for any number of reasons, any kind of trauma that

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Speaker 1: an individual may have sustained as a result of a

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Speaker 1: motor vehicle accent, certainly with gunshot ones, certain diseases. One

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Speaker 1: of the most difficult procedures that you can do in

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Speaker 1: the morgue is the removal of the brain and the

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Speaker 1: spinal cord and get this leave it intact, and you

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Speaker 1: have to go in and tely. So what that means

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Speaker 1: is that once you have removed the organs out of

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Speaker 1: the body, you go down the mid line of the

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Speaker 1: anterior aspect or the front of the spine. Okay, so

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Speaker 1: you're only going to see the front of the spine

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Speaker 1: if you're obviously looking at the interier of the of

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Speaker 1: the body. And to do that dissection with a bone saw,

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Speaker 1: it's very difficult. And so you can actually take out

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Speaker 1: a spinal cord intact. It's a very very tedious process

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Speaker 1: in order to do this, and they will be retained

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Speaker 1: many times in a jar for instance, and they'll be

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Speaker 1: preserved and what's really kind of creepy about it when

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Speaker 1: you see it, is that with the spinal cord itself,

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Speaker 1: it's attached to the brain stem. And if you've ever

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Speaker 1: seen a brain with a spinal cord attached, David looks

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Speaker 1: like something from outer because it's like the brain has

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Speaker 1: this long, long tail attached to it. And I've seen

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Speaker 1: these in jars. For instance. I've actually removed a few

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Speaker 1: and put them into jars completely intact, and as they

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Speaker 1: age and they're there in that glass and kind of floating,

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Speaker 1: it looks like some type of snake, some alien type

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Speaker 1: of snake, just kind of wrapped and coiled in that environment,

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Speaker 1: and it sits there and you're waiting for it to

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Speaker 1: reveal its secrets. Make no mistake, I love to travel,

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Speaker 1: truly do I value it more than just about anything else.

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Speaker 1: I mean, money's great, you gotta have money in order

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Speaker 1: to travel, But if you're talking about a big, fancy

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Speaker 1: house and a big fancy car, I'm going to take

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Speaker 1: travel day in and day out because you just learned

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Speaker 1: so much. And there's a couple of places I've always

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Speaker 1: wanted to go and it's part of who I am,

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Speaker 1: it's what I do. But there's two places. One is

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Speaker 1: in Portugal and the other is in Milan, Italy. And

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Speaker 1: I'm not going to Milan to see fashion. I've always

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Speaker 1: wanted to go and see what's referred to as an austuary,

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Speaker 1: and it's actually referred to as the San Berndino Asa

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Speaker 1: in Milan. And there is another one, this oshuary that

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Speaker 1: is in Portugal in Ivora, and it's called the Chapel

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Speaker 1: of Bones. And what has happened over the centuries is

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Speaker 1: that the monks that take care of the remains which

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Speaker 1: are buried underground that create oshuaries. And oshuaries are these

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Speaker 1: little areas that have nothing but stack skeletal remains. And

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Speaker 1: the one in Portugal is quite beautiful. It's actually a

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Speaker 1: chapel with an altar that has created for worship underground,

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Speaker 1: and it's quite striking when you see it. I've always

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Speaker 1: wanted to enter this place and just see what it's like.

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Speaker 1: But here's what I can't imagine. Dave. You're a FBI

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Speaker 1: agent and you're sent out to execute a warrant and

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Speaker 1: the guy that comes to the door has wild hair,

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Speaker 1: wild eyes. He answers the door and you ask him, Hey,

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Speaker 1: who's here in the house? With you, and his response

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Speaker 1: is only my dead friends. And that's the response that

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Speaker 1: the FBI agent's got from James Not.

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Speaker 2: I'm thinking they were just glad that he didn't look

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Speaker 2: at them and say you're next. The whole thing about

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Speaker 2: the FBI doing a search warrant and being surprised. I

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Speaker 2: don't necessarily know that. I believe that. I know they

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Speaker 2: were there as part of a gun investigation, But as

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Speaker 2: we started peeling this onion, there's so much more to

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Speaker 2: this and all I could think of he is it legal?

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Speaker 2: And b if it's not illegal.

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Speaker 1: Why listen? No offense to Bullock County, Kentucky. I'm sure

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Speaker 1: it's a lovely place. I would I'd go visit Bullock County, Kentucky.

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Speaker 1: But you're talking about one man in this location, this

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Speaker 1: James Knot, that has been identified by the FBI, and

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Speaker 1: he's got all of these remains that are inside of

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Speaker 1: his home. I mean, you've got remains that has a

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Speaker 1: scarf wrapped around the circumference of the skull. He's got

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Speaker 1: another skull that is apparently immediately adjacent either on or

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Speaker 1: in his bed dave where he slept. The question is,

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Speaker 1: is this is this guy a necro file. Does he

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Speaker 1: rob Graves or is it something darker than that? If

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Speaker 1: you can imagine, is he a serial killer or is

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Speaker 1: he trafficking in human remains? I don't know. It seems

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Speaker 1: like he took a lot of pride in this, but yeah,

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Speaker 1: they found a lot of weapons in there, but what's

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Speaker 1: in interesting and charge him with anything related to the

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Speaker 1: human remains?

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Speaker 2: Day you mentioned one of the skulls being on or

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Speaker 2: near the bed. I actually spent some time on this

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Speaker 2: because my first thought was, if this skull is attached

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Speaker 2: to something else and is laying there on the pillow

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Speaker 2: under the covers, we might just not do this show.

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Speaker 2: I don't think I could handle it. But what they

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Speaker 2: did find, and you mentioned the decorations and things like that,

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Speaker 2: the reality of this is I don't think their first

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Speaker 2: thought the FBI was we've got a massive serial killer

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Speaker 2: on our hands. Who is crazy? That passed Dahmer and Bundy.

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Speaker 2: I don't think they thought that because as part of

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Speaker 2: a bigger investigation, the FBI was not just aware of

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Speaker 2: the trafficking in human remains or is that what you

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Speaker 2: call the bones I mean in this particular case.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, absolutely, that's what they're referred to US.

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Speaker 2: And Harvard in particular has been in the news in

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Speaker 2: the last couple of months over some scads. So as

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Speaker 2: we move forward here, I wanted to give you an

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Speaker 2: idea of what the FBI found. The man had AK

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Speaker 2: forty seven with loaded magazines, dummy grenades, two plates of

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Speaker 2: body armor, loaded thirty eight special revolver, black powder primers,

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Speaker 2: elastic blasting caps, a detonation cord, inert grenade components, and

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Speaker 2: you have to ask, well, was there anything else in

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Speaker 2: the mix of all this the bones, the skulls, the

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Speaker 2: spinal cords, and the weapons. A Harvard Medical School bag.

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Speaker 1: You talk about putting two and two together, you begin

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Speaker 1: to think, first off, I don't know, maybe there are

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Speaker 1: Harvard trained physicians in Bullock County, Kentucky. Maybe there are,

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Speaker 1: Maybe there's former faculty members, maybe there's people that donate.

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Speaker 1: I think one of the first questions that I would

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Speaker 1: ask this fella is how did you come into possession

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Speaker 1: of this back? And why is it here? Because when

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Speaker 1: you start to see all of these anato specimens, and

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Speaker 1: that's really what they are, they are anatomical specimens, each

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Speaker 1: and every single item there, whether it's one of the skulls,

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Speaker 1: the spinal column, slash chords, the femurs, the hip bones,

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Speaker 1: all of these sorts of things. You begin to think, well,

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Speaker 1: you've got these specimens. Here, is this in some way

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Speaker 1: affiliated with Harvard Medical School? And how did you come

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Speaker 1: into possession this? Back? I mean, the AK forty seven's

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Speaker 1: are really intriguing. Your previously convicted felon. You're not supposed

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Speaker 1: to have any of this stuff. But dude, we've got

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Speaker 1: to talk about the human remains. How did you come

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Speaker 1: into possession of them? And I think that that's when

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Speaker 1: this takes a turn.

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Speaker 2: Dave, and I wanted to know from you, Joe, when

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Speaker 2: one gets human remains like this where he's able to

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Speaker 2: use them as decorations. They had to have been scrubbed, cleaned.

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Speaker 2: I don't know where they came from right now, so

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Speaker 2: I'm just assuming that they've been cleaned up, because I

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Speaker 2: don't know what a non cleaned up skull would look like.

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Speaker 2: I'm really out of my depth here, Joe. What are

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Speaker 2: we talking about? Are we talking about bones that have

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Speaker 2: gone through somebody's dishwasher? Have they come out of a lab?

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Speaker 2: How did they use these at Harvard? What is the

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Speaker 2: purpose of having skeletal remains, where this guy could have forty.

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Speaker 1: Skulls with skulls in particular, when you're talking about a

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Speaker 1: gross anatomy lab. Previous institution I was at, we had

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Speaker 1: a gross anatomy lab and I spent a lot of

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Speaker 1: time in there with my students and we'd have generally

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Speaker 1: I don't know five, six, sometimes eight bodies that were

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Speaker 1: in there that the students from several different departments within

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Speaker 1: the university would utilize to do gross anatomy with. Trust

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Speaker 1: me when I say the dissections are extensive, and you

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Speaker 1: want them to be extensive, Dave, because these people are

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Speaker 1: going to go into the medical arts and you want

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Speaker 1: them to understand just I mean as my detail as possible,

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Speaker 1: every nuance of hum an anatomy and how everything works.

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Speaker 1: It's not just the anatomy, it's the physiology and understanding

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Speaker 1: how all of that works together in order to make

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Speaker 1: us who we are and how you're going to treat

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Speaker 1: these people in the future. So with that said, the

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Speaker 1: fact that he had in tax skulls is kind of

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Speaker 1: interesting because many times, if they were in fact intact,

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Speaker 1: we don't have all of those details. You will not

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Speaker 1: find a fully intact skull out of a medical school,

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Speaker 1: because what do you have to do, Well, you have

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Speaker 1: to open the head, take the brain out, and you

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Speaker 1: cannot appreciate neuro anatomy as it applies specifically to the

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Speaker 1: brain without eviscerting the brain from the skull. So, if

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Speaker 1: that's the case where these skulls completely intact, did they

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Speaker 1: have a saw incision which is referred to the incision

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Speaker 1: is actually referred to as a circumferential incision, which is

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Speaker 1: a fancy way of saying the incision goes all the

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Speaker 1: way around the skull. So if he's got in tax skulls,

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Speaker 1: that's one of the ways, you know, somebody asked me,

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Speaker 1: is is this a real human skull? If I see

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Speaker 1: the skull cap is still on there, or what's referred

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Speaker 1: to as the calvarium, it becomes the calvarium when you

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Speaker 1: pop the off of the skull. If I see something

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Speaker 1: that is intact and somebody's got it up on a

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Speaker 1: shelf or something like that, I'm going to look at

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Speaker 1: it and I'm going to say, well, if that's intact,

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Speaker 1: why would you have an intact skull? Because you know

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Speaker 1: that it probably is not part of a gross anatomy class,

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Speaker 1: there's a higher likelihood unless you're collecting human remains, there's

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Speaker 1: a higher likelihood that it's probably a mock up that

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Speaker 1: just looks like bone because most of the time these

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Speaker 1: students have to pop the caps, these calvariums off of

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Speaker 1: them to take the brain out in order to examine it.

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Speaker 1: There's no other way to get the brain out, Okay,

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Speaker 1: is what it comes down to. When it is said

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Speaker 1: by the FBI that he had forty human skulls, you

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Speaker 1: begin to think, well, my word, how did you get

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Speaker 1: these and what state were they in? It's an interesting thing.

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Speaker 1: Unless the people in Bullet County, Kentucky had went out

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Speaker 1: to the local cemetery and looked around, they had a

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Speaker 1: bunch of holes in the ground. There's got to be

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Speaker 1: some other explanation for this guy being in possession of

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Speaker 1: these skulls, forty of them. This guy's only thirty nine

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Speaker 1: years old. How do you collect that many skulls in

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Speaker 1: that period of time in your life? And what's the

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Speaker 1: purpose for you have in them? And back to your

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Speaker 1: point about how do you get these bones clean? There's

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Speaker 1: any number of ways that you get them clean. People

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Speaker 1: have used bleach over the years, forensic anthropologists actually use

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Speaker 1: a technique that is not for the squeamish. If we have, say,

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Speaker 1: for instance, bones that come to us out of the field,

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Speaker 1: and the tissue there might be some decomposing tissue that's

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Speaker 1: still on there, they will essentially slowly heat that bone

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Speaker 1: inside of a pot with water or chemical mixture inside

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Speaker 1: of it, and the soft tissue will fall away, and

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Speaker 1: so that what you're left with is raw bone, just

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Speaker 1: pure bone. If you've gotten medical students that are utilizing

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Speaker 1: bone as a tool for understanding anatomy, they're not very

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Speaker 1: skilled with tools at this point, and you're going to

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Speaker 1: get a lot of tool marks on these bones. You'll

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Speaker 1: see scalpel scraping, for instance. You'll see where they've used

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Speaker 1: scissors to cut away tendons and those sorts of things,

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Speaker 1: and if you closely examine it, you can see that

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Speaker 1: somebody has done something to these bones.

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Speaker 2: I know that as we move forward, I don't want

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Speaker 2: to make a light of this by Joe. I don't

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Speaker 2: know any other way. When you've got a man who's

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Speaker 2: got forty skulls on his property and he's made decorations

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Speaker 2: out of them, I would think and I mean this,

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Speaker 2: if that's your thing, that you like this type of

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Speaker 2: imagery and around you, that you just by plastic that

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Speaker 2: it would hold up longer. And this seems to be

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Speaker 2: more from a shock value standpoint of And when I

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Speaker 2: saw the guy's mugshot, my first, second, and third thought was, hey, man,

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Speaker 2: don't rule out the possibility that he is a serial killer.

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Speaker 1: Well here's the thing, Dave. There's a certain level of

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Speaker 1: comfort than has develops with this. There's almost a callous

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Speaker 1: that develops, I think psychologically to being around human remains.

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Speaker 1: I'llgue you for instance, when I spent hours and hours

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Speaker 1: in the Morgue and it was my daily routine. I'd

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Speaker 1: go in, I'd have a cup coffee or soda or

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Speaker 1: something like that, and I'd be standing at the counter,

359
00:21:19,480 --> 00:21:22,440
Speaker 1: you know, writing, there'd be bodies laid out in there.

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Speaker 1: If I just grabbed John Q Public and said, hey,

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Speaker 1: I want you to come to work with me, I'll

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Speaker 1: go through the drive through by you a cup coffee

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Speaker 1: and you can come and talk to me at the counter.

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Speaker 1: And I've got bodies laid out in there. You think

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Speaker 1: that person's going to listen to anything I have to say.

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Speaker 1: They're not going to sit there and calmly drink their coffee.

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Speaker 1: And for me, it goes to this idea that you've

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Speaker 1: become very comfortable in this environment. You don't give it

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Speaker 1: a second thought because it's part of the world that

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Speaker 1: you occupy. So when you're talking about this gentleman from

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Speaker 1: up in Kentucky, you begin to think, how in the

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Speaker 1: world do you get to this level of comfort at

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Speaker 1: this point in your life where you are actually sleeping

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Speaker 1: with a human skull in your bed. I'm gonna throw

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Speaker 1: out a couple of names to you, Dave. The names

376
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Speaker 1: actually come from a few years back. William Burke and

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Speaker 1: William Hare, and these guys were from Scotland and they

378
00:22:34,320 --> 00:22:39,479
Speaker 1: were a pair of serial killers and they kind of

379
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Speaker 1: had an interesting, let's say, modus operandi. They were killing

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Speaker 1: people in order to create a market for anatomical gifts,

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Speaker 1: and these gifts of these bodies of these people that

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Speaker 1: they were killing. We're going to a gentleman that was

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Speaker 1: highly respected and highly regarded by the name of doctor

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Speaker 1: Robert Knox. But the problem was this, when you worked

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Speaker 1: in medical schools back during that period of time, there

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Speaker 1: was a prohibition against doing human dissections, and so there

387
00:23:14,200 --> 00:23:16,479
Speaker 1: was a real market, and this happened a lot. There

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00:23:16,480 --> 00:23:19,639
Speaker 1: were several cases. There's even a very infamous case that

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00:23:19,680 --> 00:23:24,080
Speaker 1: occurred in Georgia where they went in under many years ago,

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Speaker 1: went under one of the old buildings at the Medical

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Speaker 1: College of Georgia it's no longer call that now, where

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Speaker 1: they found an area where bones had been dumped. Medical

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Speaker 1: students pre Civil War were doing dissections on human remains

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Speaker 1: that were provided to them by grave robbers. They would

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Speaker 1: do them by candle light, just so that they could

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Speaker 1: understand human anatomy. But the reason I bring this up

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Speaker 1: is that actually one of the center points of this

398
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Speaker 1: investigation that the FBI is conducting involves a man and Dave.

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Speaker 1: His email handle that he actually used was William.

400
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Speaker 2: Burke James Knott, the Kentucky man that had the forty skulls.

401
00:24:04,480 --> 00:24:07,200
Speaker 2: He was the one using William Burke as a Facebook

402
00:24:07,240 --> 00:24:10,719
Speaker 2: Messenger name, and he was the one, according to the

403
00:24:11,240 --> 00:24:14,400
Speaker 2: FBI and their paperwork, that's who actually was using that name,

404
00:24:14,720 --> 00:24:19,000
Speaker 2: and his contact was Jeremy Pauley, Jeremy Paully being from Pennsylvania.

405
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Speaker 2: As you start looking at these things, these people are

406
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Speaker 2: all using Facebook messenger. Joe You've got James Not with

407
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Speaker 2: the forty skulls in Kentucky and his contact Jeremy in Pennsylvania.

408
00:24:30,280 --> 00:24:34,280
Speaker 2: That's where that investigation begins to really open up to

409
00:24:34,359 --> 00:24:37,840
Speaker 2: because ultimately who had that Harvard Medical School bag and

410
00:24:37,880 --> 00:24:40,080
Speaker 2: how to end up in Kentucky at the home of

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Speaker 2: James Knot.

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Speaker 1: That's an excellent question because now you're getting into the

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Speaker 1: area of anatomical gifts. Who in the world is going

414
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Speaker 1: to have access to human remains? Well, it's the people

415
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Speaker 1: that put their hands on the human remain. What's the

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Speaker 1: quickest way to facilitate that if you're looking to actually

417
00:25:01,640 --> 00:25:05,520
Speaker 1: distribute these among people, Well, if you sign a will

418
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Speaker 1: and you say, okay, I want my body to go

419
00:25:08,160 --> 00:25:11,320
Speaker 1: to X, Okay, I want it to go to I

420
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Speaker 1: don't know. There's people that actually donate their bodies to

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00:25:13,800 --> 00:25:16,520
Speaker 1: the Body Farm in Tennessee. I've had people ask me

422
00:25:16,560 --> 00:25:19,720
Speaker 1: about that, something I would want to do, but people

423
00:25:19,800 --> 00:25:22,520
Speaker 1: do that. But there are a large number of people

424
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Speaker 1: that say, for instance, they want their body donated from

425
00:25:27,080 --> 00:25:31,240
Speaker 1: medical science and it's certainly admirable, I think because the

426
00:25:31,280 --> 00:25:33,359
Speaker 1: body is going to be used in order to teach

427
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Speaker 1: people so that they can go out and become future

428
00:25:36,080 --> 00:25:40,240
Speaker 1: practitioners into medical arts. And you begin to think about this.

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Speaker 1: There's a certain level of trust that comes along with

430
00:25:44,400 --> 00:25:48,560
Speaker 1: these donations, and it would appear that how Harvard kind

431
00:25:48,560 --> 00:25:51,840
Speaker 1: of weaves its way into this whole drama. There was

432
00:25:51,880 --> 00:25:55,600
Speaker 1: a fellow by the name of Cecil Lodge who's formerly

433
00:25:55,880 --> 00:25:59,639
Speaker 1: he headed up the Harvard Medical School Anatomical Gift program.

434
00:26:00,040 --> 00:26:03,560
Speaker 1: So there's your point of contact. And what was happening

435
00:26:03,880 --> 00:26:09,520
Speaker 1: apparently was Lodge has been allegedly using I don't want

436
00:26:09,560 --> 00:26:13,720
Speaker 1: to say Facebook marketplace, but he's been utilizing Facebook as

437
00:26:13,760 --> 00:26:18,680
Speaker 1: a way to broker human remains and individuals that are

438
00:26:18,720 --> 00:26:22,800
Speaker 1: tied into here. You've got this fellow in Pennsylvania that's

439
00:26:22,880 --> 00:26:26,120
Speaker 1: brokering or that the remains are coming to them. There's

440
00:26:26,119 --> 00:26:30,640
Speaker 1: an individual in Arkansas that is a funeral director. They're

441
00:26:30,680 --> 00:26:36,760
Speaker 1: acquiring things. They're acquiring things like skin dissected out, hands, feet,

442
00:26:37,359 --> 00:26:40,119
Speaker 1: all these sorts of things that you normally use so

443
00:26:40,240 --> 00:26:43,760
Speaker 1: that people can do detailed dissections. Let me kind of

444
00:26:43,840 --> 00:26:45,840
Speaker 1: explain to you how this works, because I think a

445
00:26:45,880 --> 00:26:51,239
Speaker 1: lot of folks might believe that when a body is

446
00:26:51,440 --> 00:26:56,040
Speaker 1: used by medical school to teach gross anatomy they're going

447
00:26:56,119 --> 00:26:59,639
Speaker 1: to take that body and keep it stored forever and ever. Amen,

448
00:27:00,119 --> 00:27:03,280
Speaker 1: That's not what happens. Here's how the process goes. So

449
00:27:03,920 --> 00:27:06,679
Speaker 1: let's just say the Cecil Lodge Fellow has a body

450
00:27:06,800 --> 00:27:10,280
Speaker 1: that is donated to Harvard Medical School. And I'm sure

451
00:27:10,320 --> 00:27:12,920
Speaker 1: that there are many alumni that have donated their body,

452
00:27:12,920 --> 00:27:16,399
Speaker 1: particularly those that came through the medical school. And let's

453
00:27:16,400 --> 00:27:19,919
Speaker 1: face it, Dave, those are very powerful people. Can you imagine?

454
00:27:20,200 --> 00:27:23,359
Speaker 1: So an individual says, Okay, I want my dad's body,

455
00:27:23,440 --> 00:27:26,359
Speaker 1: my mom's body to go to Harvard Medical School. It

456
00:27:26,400 --> 00:27:29,280
Speaker 1: was their wish. Maybe the individual before they passed on

457
00:27:29,520 --> 00:27:33,320
Speaker 1: signed an agreement making their body an anatomical gift. Well,

458
00:27:33,520 --> 00:27:37,600
Speaker 1: Lodge takes the body. It will actually pass before the

459
00:27:37,600 --> 00:27:42,760
Speaker 1: medical school students, the incoming freshmen, well I say incoming freshmen,

460
00:27:42,800 --> 00:27:44,560
Speaker 1: and they're not referred to as freshmen, that refer to

461
00:27:44,600 --> 00:27:47,400
Speaker 1: as first years. And that's when you take gross anatomy

462
00:27:47,680 --> 00:27:50,320
Speaker 1: in medical school. That first year you got started the

463
00:27:50,400 --> 00:27:53,560
Speaker 1: baseline here and they do their dissection. There might be

464
00:27:53,600 --> 00:27:56,480
Speaker 1: two or three of these students on one body, working

465
00:27:56,520 --> 00:27:59,520
Speaker 1: as a team, and they'll work with this body, perhaps

466
00:27:59,600 --> 00:28:01,840
Speaker 1: through an entire semester and in some cases through an

467
00:28:01,960 --> 00:28:04,680
Speaker 1: entire year. Well, what happens to the body after that?

468
00:28:05,280 --> 00:28:08,600
Speaker 1: Do they go and have a funeral service? No. Most

469
00:28:08,600 --> 00:28:12,600
Speaker 1: of the time those bodies are then taken to a

470
00:28:12,640 --> 00:28:16,480
Speaker 1: facility where there's a standing agreement where those bodies will

471
00:28:16,520 --> 00:28:20,120
Speaker 1: then be cremated. That's not what happened. So after these

472
00:28:20,160 --> 00:28:24,520
Speaker 1: bodies would have gone through these detailed dissections at Harvard,

473
00:28:24,920 --> 00:28:29,040
Speaker 1: apparently things changed. They weren't going out to be cremated.

474
00:28:29,200 --> 00:28:33,040
Speaker 1: These bodies were being retained, and allegedly what has happened

475
00:28:33,480 --> 00:28:37,000
Speaker 1: is that parts of these bodies were being broken to

476
00:28:37,119 --> 00:28:42,040
Speaker 1: individuals that Lodge has allegedly been networked with throughout the country.

477
00:28:42,560 --> 00:28:45,640
Speaker 1: It goes out to these individuals, and then these individuals

478
00:28:45,760 --> 00:28:52,400
Speaker 1: have people that are interested in purchasing interesting souvenirs body parts, skulls,

479
00:28:52,640 --> 00:28:57,480
Speaker 1: spinal columns, a pelvis, a thigh bone, or femur, anything

480
00:28:57,520 --> 00:29:00,800
Speaker 1: that just kind of peaks their interest. People that will

481
00:29:00,840 --> 00:29:03,920
Speaker 1: take the small elements of a hand, for instance, say

482
00:29:04,200 --> 00:29:07,600
Speaker 1: the digits off of a finger, and make necklaces out

483
00:29:07,640 --> 00:29:09,920
Speaker 1: of these things. There are people that make human teeth

484
00:29:10,040 --> 00:29:12,600
Speaker 1: necklaces out of these things. Most of the time, it

485
00:29:12,640 --> 00:29:16,240
Speaker 1: doesn't happen here in the US. But if that's where

486
00:29:16,280 --> 00:29:20,360
Speaker 1: your imagination runs to, it's being fueled by these individuals

487
00:29:20,960 --> 00:29:23,000
Speaker 1: that participate in this kind of behavior.

488
00:29:23,640 --> 00:29:27,600
Speaker 2: We have people that we trust with the last vet.

489
00:29:28,000 --> 00:29:30,440
Speaker 2: This is my mom, you know, this is my dad,

490
00:29:30,480 --> 00:29:34,560
Speaker 2: this is my wife, and you're at the funeral home

491
00:29:34,640 --> 00:29:38,800
Speaker 2: at my emotionally weakest moment. Maybe we have decided to

492
00:29:38,840 --> 00:29:42,640
Speaker 2: do cremation. I expect this to be all of my

493
00:29:42,760 --> 00:29:46,920
Speaker 2: loved one. I don't expect for you. You're already charging

494
00:29:46,960 --> 00:29:51,200
Speaker 2: me a bundle to do this job, and now you're

495
00:29:51,200 --> 00:29:55,680
Speaker 2: gonna take my mom's skull and sell it to some

496
00:29:55,840 --> 00:29:57,840
Speaker 2: guy so he can make a vase out of it

497
00:29:57,880 --> 00:30:01,560
Speaker 2: in Kentucky. No, here's what we actually have. We have

498
00:30:01,680 --> 00:30:06,360
Speaker 2: James knot at the forty Skullman. We have the Pennsylvania guy,

499
00:30:06,440 --> 00:30:10,280
Speaker 2: Jeremy Pauley. We have the head of the Harvard the

500
00:30:10,320 --> 00:30:14,719
Speaker 2: former More guy at Harvard this whole and Candace Chapman

501
00:30:14,760 --> 00:30:17,560
Speaker 2: out of Little Rock. All of these people playing a

502
00:30:17,680 --> 00:30:21,959
Speaker 2: role in taking body parts that were not intended to

503
00:30:22,040 --> 00:30:24,920
Speaker 2: be a lamp and they're moving them around the country.

504
00:30:24,920 --> 00:30:27,360
Speaker 2: And it's not just small It's not just Joe Scott

505
00:30:27,400 --> 00:30:30,840
Speaker 2: and Dave needing a femur for a lucky stick. This

506
00:30:31,000 --> 00:30:35,400
Speaker 2: is a whole big thing using social media to reach

507
00:30:35,520 --> 00:30:40,080
Speaker 2: other like minded individuals, to create these trophies, these things,

508
00:30:40,720 --> 00:30:45,480
Speaker 2: and to move them around the country. It's a big group.

509
00:30:45,720 --> 00:30:49,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, it is. And to this day there are essentially

510
00:30:50,240 --> 00:30:54,320
Speaker 1: mister Lodge along with his wife Denise, who is also

511
00:30:54,440 --> 00:30:57,320
Speaker 1: involved in this. There are five other people that you've named.

512
00:30:57,640 --> 00:31:00,520
Speaker 1: They have only been charged at this point, Tom and

513
00:31:00,720 --> 00:31:04,160
Speaker 1: not convicted. And right now we're going to wait and

514
00:31:04,200 --> 00:31:07,680
Speaker 1: see what happens with this case because it's going to impact,

515
00:31:08,160 --> 00:31:10,800
Speaker 1: i think, Dave, in the long run, it's going to

516
00:31:10,880 --> 00:31:15,520
Speaker 1: impact policy as it applies to all of these other groups,

517
00:31:15,920 --> 00:31:18,760
Speaker 1: all of these people that you allow into that circle

518
00:31:19,280 --> 00:31:24,440
Speaker 1: within the anatomical gift environment and within mortuaries that are

519
00:31:24,480 --> 00:31:28,280
Speaker 1: trusted with taking care of the dead, but more importantly

520
00:31:28,680 --> 00:31:36,280
Speaker 1: taking care of their memories and their families. I'm Joseph

521
00:31:36,280 --> 00:31:39,360
Speaker 1: Scott Morgan and this is Bodybacks