1 00:00:08,520 --> 00:00:21,239 Speaker 1: Body Backs with Joseph Scott Morgan. I've had the opportunity 2 00:00:21,239 --> 00:00:26,480 Speaker 1: to travel quite a bit across this country, and one 3 00:00:26,480 --> 00:00:30,040 Speaker 1: of the most striking locations geographically, at least is in 4 00:00:30,080 --> 00:00:34,000 Speaker 1: my opinion, is the desert southwest of the United States. 5 00:00:34,560 --> 00:00:37,920 Speaker 1: Being from the southeast, I'm used to seeing farm land 6 00:00:38,000 --> 00:00:44,000 Speaker 1: and rolling hills and green everywhere. Not out there. Sometimes 7 00:00:44,000 --> 00:00:45,680 Speaker 1: you can get on one of those highways and it 8 00:00:45,760 --> 00:00:48,239 Speaker 1: just looks like it goes on and on forever, and 9 00:00:49,240 --> 00:00:51,279 Speaker 1: I kind of realize how small you are. It's kind 10 00:00:51,280 --> 00:00:52,519 Speaker 1: of like when you go to the ocean for the 11 00:00:52,520 --> 00:00:55,160 Speaker 1: first time when you're a kid. You see the vastness 12 00:00:55,160 --> 00:00:59,160 Speaker 1: of it, but there is a beauty to it. But 13 00:00:59,400 --> 00:01:03,080 Speaker 1: not too many people stop along the roadway. There's not 14 00:01:03,200 --> 00:01:06,479 Speaker 1: many establishments out in some of those locations to stop at. 15 00:01:08,720 --> 00:01:12,800 Speaker 1: But can you imagine tooling down the road. You got 16 00:01:12,800 --> 00:01:17,080 Speaker 1: your kids in the car with you, Maybe you're singing 17 00:01:17,080 --> 00:01:18,920 Speaker 1: a song whether or maybe you're playing a game, or 18 00:01:19,360 --> 00:01:22,280 Speaker 1: maybe you're telling them to settle down. But all of 19 00:01:22,319 --> 00:01:24,920 Speaker 1: a sudden, on the corner of your eye, you're catching 20 00:01:24,959 --> 00:01:30,920 Speaker 1: hot sight. In the middle of that vastness, there's a Mercedes, 21 00:01:31,120 --> 00:01:37,080 Speaker 1: a blue one Mercedes been C. Three hundred sitting there 22 00:01:37,440 --> 00:01:40,520 Speaker 1: rising up off the desert floor on what the police 23 00:01:40,560 --> 00:01:46,440 Speaker 1: called earthen burm. When your high catches it and you 24 00:01:46,560 --> 00:01:50,800 Speaker 1: notice that there's a big hole in the window, looks like, 25 00:01:50,840 --> 00:01:52,800 Speaker 1: I don't know, a gun blast or maybe a big 26 00:01:52,880 --> 00:01:56,680 Speaker 1: rock went through it. But when the police finally showed 27 00:01:56,760 --> 00:01:59,520 Speaker 1: up at that scene, after that duty had caught it in, 28 00:02:01,120 --> 00:02:04,040 Speaker 1: when they opened the trunk of that car, they found 29 00:02:04,080 --> 00:02:06,520 Speaker 1: something as shocking as anything else you might see out 30 00:02:06,560 --> 00:02:08,960 Speaker 1: there in that desperate they found the body of doctor 31 00:02:09,000 --> 00:02:14,359 Speaker 1: Thomas Bouchard. Today, we're going to talk about his honor side. 32 00:02:15,840 --> 00:02:24,799 Speaker 1: I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is body bags. Join 33 00:02:24,919 --> 00:02:28,680 Speaker 1: him in today is my good friend Jackie Howard, senior 34 00:02:28,720 --> 00:02:33,639 Speaker 1: producer with Nancy Gray's Crime Stories. Jackie, when I heard 35 00:02:33,639 --> 00:02:36,799 Speaker 1: about the story, I was thinking, what an odd thing. 36 00:02:37,480 --> 00:02:39,639 Speaker 1: You're riding along the road with your kids in the car. 37 00:02:39,880 --> 00:02:41,880 Speaker 1: You know, you and I are both parents, and I've 38 00:02:41,919 --> 00:02:43,760 Speaker 1: seen odd things along the road with my family in 39 00:02:43,760 --> 00:02:46,400 Speaker 1: the car. I don't know that I would have necessarily stopped, 40 00:02:46,680 --> 00:02:49,000 Speaker 1: but apparently he at least called it into the police 41 00:02:49,040 --> 00:02:51,120 Speaker 1: that caught his attention. And can you imagine the shock 42 00:02:51,160 --> 00:02:52,920 Speaker 1: of the police when they finally rolled up there and 43 00:02:53,520 --> 00:02:55,040 Speaker 1: they stick their head in the winter of their car 44 00:02:55,080 --> 00:02:57,720 Speaker 1: and they say it there's blood everywhere. That's going to 45 00:02:57,800 --> 00:03:00,760 Speaker 1: be an indication that's something pretty horrid has occurred, I 46 00:03:00,800 --> 00:03:04,519 Speaker 1: would think, I would say, in the landscape of California, 47 00:03:04,680 --> 00:03:07,760 Speaker 1: Las Vegas and the area in between, that's probably not 48 00:03:08,200 --> 00:03:11,720 Speaker 1: the strangest things that officers have seen out there. But 49 00:03:12,000 --> 00:03:16,919 Speaker 1: doctor Thomas Burchard was very well known and very well 50 00:03:16,960 --> 00:03:20,799 Speaker 1: liked among his patients. He had a longtime girlfriend. According 51 00:03:20,840 --> 00:03:26,040 Speaker 1: to Judy Earp, his girlfriend, his patients remained his friends 52 00:03:26,800 --> 00:03:30,560 Speaker 1: and he helped them often throughout the rest of his life. 53 00:03:31,200 --> 00:03:35,520 Speaker 1: Usually he dealt with children, but as they turned into adults, 54 00:03:35,600 --> 00:03:40,360 Speaker 1: he remained contact in their life, helping them financially, often 55 00:03:40,400 --> 00:03:44,160 Speaker 1: when he had to. But when doctor Burchard explained to 56 00:03:44,200 --> 00:03:46,680 Speaker 1: his girlfriend that he had to fly to Las Vegas. 57 00:03:47,160 --> 00:03:51,080 Speaker 1: That was Friday, March first, and he was scheduled to 58 00:03:51,120 --> 00:03:55,800 Speaker 1: return the following Monday. But on Sunday, she began to 59 00:03:55,800 --> 00:03:58,760 Speaker 1: realize that something was wrong. She spoke to him on Friday, 60 00:03:59,160 --> 00:04:03,080 Speaker 1: she texted with him on Saturday, but Judy Irp says 61 00:04:03,160 --> 00:04:06,120 Speaker 1: she knew something was wrong on Sunday when she received 62 00:04:06,160 --> 00:04:10,160 Speaker 1: a couple of texts from him in the afternoon that 63 00:04:10,320 --> 00:04:14,360 Speaker 1: she knew she just felt in her heart that were 64 00:04:14,440 --> 00:04:18,520 Speaker 1: not sent by him. She even replied, Tom, I don't 65 00:04:18,520 --> 00:04:20,960 Speaker 1: believe this is you. You need to call me, and 66 00:04:21,080 --> 00:04:24,680 Speaker 1: after that the phone went dead. Then she finds out 67 00:04:24,839 --> 00:04:27,559 Speaker 1: that Tom doesn't check in for his flight. She gets 68 00:04:27,680 --> 00:04:32,919 Speaker 1: very worried. There's days before doctor Bouchard's body was discovered 69 00:04:33,080 --> 00:04:35,560 Speaker 1: in the trunk, as you said, of his luxury car. 70 00:04:36,240 --> 00:04:40,880 Speaker 1: But before the police officers looked in the trunk, they 71 00:04:40,960 --> 00:04:43,920 Speaker 1: looked inside, as you said, they noticed the broken windshield. 72 00:04:44,520 --> 00:04:51,120 Speaker 1: And this vehicle parked it would almost be like a 73 00:04:51,200 --> 00:04:56,000 Speaker 1: big lightbulb above it because it's on display and it's 74 00:04:56,000 --> 00:04:58,000 Speaker 1: basically we got a knee on sun that says, hey, 75 00:04:58,000 --> 00:05:00,679 Speaker 1: look at me. I'm a flashy car and I'm sitting 76 00:05:00,760 --> 00:05:03,520 Speaker 1: up for all the world to see. So police officers 77 00:05:03,600 --> 00:05:09,880 Speaker 1: go to look and inside they find lots of blood. Joe, 78 00:05:10,640 --> 00:05:13,159 Speaker 1: one of the fascinating things about being a death investigator 79 00:05:13,200 --> 00:05:17,240 Speaker 1: is that sometimes when you arrive at a scene, do 80 00:05:17,320 --> 00:05:20,720 Speaker 1: you know that there are actually of deaths that don't 81 00:05:20,760 --> 00:05:25,800 Speaker 1: have bodies, And upon initial examination. When you look, say, 82 00:05:25,880 --> 00:05:28,760 Speaker 1: for instance, into the cabin of a car, and it 83 00:05:28,839 --> 00:05:33,320 Speaker 1: is just bathed in blood, you have to think automatically 84 00:05:33,440 --> 00:05:36,960 Speaker 1: that something horrific has happened in this environment. You have 85 00:05:37,040 --> 00:05:40,200 Speaker 1: all manner of blood staining that has taken place, and 86 00:05:40,520 --> 00:05:45,400 Speaker 1: you know with blood there goes an indication of activity. 87 00:05:45,880 --> 00:05:48,600 Speaker 1: What do I mean by that, Well, you have blood 88 00:05:48,600 --> 00:05:53,080 Speaker 1: spatter where you can have a dynamic event, say for instance, 89 00:05:53,120 --> 00:05:56,719 Speaker 1: a gunshot wound or maybe a bludgeoning, where you have 90 00:05:56,880 --> 00:06:00,840 Speaker 1: blood that is directly blown onto a surface, sprayed onto 91 00:06:00,839 --> 00:06:03,960 Speaker 1: a surface, if you will. In one manner speaking, then 92 00:06:04,000 --> 00:06:06,760 Speaker 1: you have transfer of blood, which means that you have 93 00:06:06,800 --> 00:06:10,520 Speaker 1: blood that comes comes about as a result of a 94 00:06:10,560 --> 00:06:13,520 Speaker 1: body or an object that is soaked with blood touching 95 00:06:13,560 --> 00:06:17,640 Speaker 1: that area, and then it kind of supersaturates the area 96 00:06:17,720 --> 00:06:21,120 Speaker 1: and it leaves this very specific pattern. If you take 97 00:06:21,160 --> 00:06:24,080 Speaker 1: a body, say, for instance, and you move it all 98 00:06:24,120 --> 00:06:27,600 Speaker 1: about an area and it's coated in blood, you'll get 99 00:06:27,600 --> 00:06:30,440 Speaker 1: these kind of swirls, say, for instance, as somebody has 100 00:06:30,480 --> 00:06:34,000 Speaker 1: a bloody, blood soaked hair. It's almost like taking a 101 00:06:34,040 --> 00:06:36,719 Speaker 1: mop that has mud or something on it, and you 102 00:06:36,720 --> 00:06:39,080 Speaker 1: can kind of see the swirl on the floor that 103 00:06:39,160 --> 00:06:42,600 Speaker 1: the mud makes as you transfer it from those strands 104 00:06:42,600 --> 00:06:45,279 Speaker 1: of the mop. Same thing with hair. Clothing works the 105 00:06:45,320 --> 00:06:47,599 Speaker 1: same way, hands work the same way, and so there's 106 00:06:47,720 --> 00:06:50,480 Speaker 1: very distinctive patterns that you look for. But it also 107 00:06:50,520 --> 00:06:53,599 Speaker 1: goes to the dynamic of an event, which is critical 108 00:06:54,000 --> 00:06:57,200 Speaker 1: in a case where you're trying to assess how this 109 00:06:57,360 --> 00:07:02,040 Speaker 1: blood is in fact directly related to a horrible event 110 00:07:02,120 --> 00:07:05,799 Speaker 1: that more than likely gaging from the amount of blood 111 00:07:06,200 --> 00:07:09,200 Speaker 1: you find it a scene might be an indication that 112 00:07:09,440 --> 00:07:12,560 Speaker 1: the amount of blood is what's referred to as incompatible 113 00:07:12,600 --> 00:07:16,960 Speaker 1: with life. Given where these blood patterns were found, there's 114 00:07:17,280 --> 00:07:20,360 Speaker 1: spatter on the driver's seat head rest and in the 115 00:07:20,440 --> 00:07:24,360 Speaker 1: back seat. When you're looking at a scene like this, Joe, 116 00:07:24,480 --> 00:07:27,840 Speaker 1: can you just immediately not from doing any kind of testing, 117 00:07:28,360 --> 00:07:31,760 Speaker 1: but just from looking at how much and how the 118 00:07:31,800 --> 00:07:38,200 Speaker 1: blood is laid out, whether it is a blood force wound, 119 00:07:38,480 --> 00:07:43,120 Speaker 1: a stabbing wound, a shooting. I mean, just can you 120 00:07:43,160 --> 00:07:45,240 Speaker 1: look at that and go, oh, yes, somebody got shot here. 121 00:07:45,640 --> 00:07:48,360 Speaker 1: Yeah you can, because you know the finer the spray, 122 00:07:48,480 --> 00:07:51,280 Speaker 1: for instance, that gives us an indication of the hire 123 00:07:51,320 --> 00:07:53,960 Speaker 1: of the velocity. And I'll give you an example of that. 124 00:07:54,000 --> 00:07:57,880 Speaker 1: If you if you take, say a handgun, and you 125 00:07:57,920 --> 00:08:01,320 Speaker 1: shoot somebody in the head, when that blood exits out 126 00:08:01,360 --> 00:08:04,440 Speaker 1: of the body, it's going to be in a spray 127 00:08:04,480 --> 00:08:06,840 Speaker 1: like pattern. When I say spray, I'm talking about the 128 00:08:07,000 --> 00:08:12,040 Speaker 1: consistency of like air sol hairspray. Can you kind of 129 00:08:12,080 --> 00:08:14,880 Speaker 1: sprits it like that and the droplets will be very 130 00:08:15,000 --> 00:08:18,880 Speaker 1: very fine. However, if you have an event where someone 131 00:08:19,000 --> 00:08:22,520 Speaker 1: is beaten to death, the droplets themselves will be much 132 00:08:22,600 --> 00:08:25,680 Speaker 1: larger when they settle on the surface. Another thing you 133 00:08:25,760 --> 00:08:29,600 Speaker 1: have to consider as well is do you have evidence 134 00:08:29,640 --> 00:08:32,800 Speaker 1: that blood's settled in a particular location. And this is 135 00:08:32,960 --> 00:08:34,520 Speaker 1: you know, we begin to talk about things like the 136 00:08:34,559 --> 00:08:37,520 Speaker 1: pooling of blood, where you have pools of blood that 137 00:08:37,640 --> 00:08:40,680 Speaker 1: give you an indication that a subject may have laid 138 00:08:40,720 --> 00:08:44,360 Speaker 1: there for a period of time and blood either pumped 139 00:08:44,360 --> 00:08:46,520 Speaker 1: out of their body at that spot. It doesn't have 140 00:08:46,559 --> 00:08:49,360 Speaker 1: to be like an arterial spray pattern, which tends to 141 00:08:49,400 --> 00:08:52,280 Speaker 1: be kind of fine. It can be just almost like 142 00:08:52,320 --> 00:08:55,560 Speaker 1: a seepage where you have blood that's kind of slowly 143 00:08:55,600 --> 00:08:57,760 Speaker 1: coursing out of the body and sometimes that's just drawn 144 00:08:57,880 --> 00:08:59,760 Speaker 1: up by gravity. At all depends, So if you have 145 00:08:59,800 --> 00:09:02,560 Speaker 1: a large area of blood, you have an indication that 146 00:09:02,600 --> 00:09:05,200 Speaker 1: the dynamic or that there was kind of a lack 147 00:09:05,240 --> 00:09:07,760 Speaker 1: of a dynamic environment there where you've got a lot 148 00:09:07,800 --> 00:09:11,400 Speaker 1: of movement around and kind of these high velocity events 149 00:09:11,400 --> 00:09:14,040 Speaker 1: and that sort of thing, a lot of activity. That's 150 00:09:14,080 --> 00:09:15,840 Speaker 1: one of the reasons. And this is kind of an 151 00:09:15,920 --> 00:09:19,199 Speaker 1: interesting little aside. There are cases that have been worked 152 00:09:19,200 --> 00:09:24,280 Speaker 1: over the years where people have actually been convicted in 153 00:09:24,360 --> 00:09:27,000 Speaker 1: the absence of a body of a homicide, but yet 154 00:09:27,880 --> 00:09:31,440 Speaker 1: the investigators found such a large amount of blood at 155 00:09:31,440 --> 00:09:34,679 Speaker 1: the scene. The term just as I stated earlier, they 156 00:09:34,679 --> 00:09:37,280 Speaker 1: would say, let's see if I get the phraseology right, 157 00:09:37,840 --> 00:09:42,440 Speaker 1: this volume of blood is not compatible with life. In 158 00:09:42,480 --> 00:09:46,080 Speaker 1: other words, that the individual lost so much blood at 159 00:09:46,080 --> 00:09:50,000 Speaker 1: that moment in time that the subject could not have 160 00:09:50,360 --> 00:09:54,000 Speaker 1: continued to live. And it can be indicative of what 161 00:09:54,120 --> 00:09:57,080 Speaker 1: type of event that you might be looking at. You 162 00:09:57,160 --> 00:09:59,840 Speaker 1: begin to look at, for instance, the appearance of the blood. 163 00:10:00,200 --> 00:10:03,480 Speaker 1: Have the red blood cells begun to say, for instance, 164 00:10:03,559 --> 00:10:05,840 Speaker 1: separate from the serum. You know, the way we think 165 00:10:05,880 --> 00:10:09,960 Speaker 1: about blood is if it's constantly circulating and mixing, if 166 00:10:10,000 --> 00:10:12,760 Speaker 1: you will, So once that begins to happen, that can 167 00:10:12,760 --> 00:10:15,520 Speaker 1: be an indication of time as well, because it takes 168 00:10:15,600 --> 00:10:18,679 Speaker 1: a certain amount of time for the serum to separate 169 00:10:18,720 --> 00:10:21,600 Speaker 1: out from the red blood cells, for instance, and within 170 00:10:21,640 --> 00:10:25,640 Speaker 1: the serum you'll find other components as well. But it 171 00:10:25,679 --> 00:10:29,440 Speaker 1: gives you an idea of what may have happened. And 172 00:10:29,640 --> 00:10:32,120 Speaker 1: it's important because the blood will tell you. It'll give 173 00:10:32,160 --> 00:10:35,120 Speaker 1: you direction many times, not just the dynamic of events, 174 00:10:35,120 --> 00:10:37,920 Speaker 1: say the spray of a blood pattern it's left behind, 175 00:10:37,960 --> 00:10:40,880 Speaker 1: but also if you have, say, for instance, the drag 176 00:10:40,960 --> 00:10:44,520 Speaker 1: marks that are left behind, and sometimes they are telltale 177 00:10:45,120 --> 00:10:49,440 Speaker 1: people are moving a bloody body across a surface and 178 00:10:49,800 --> 00:10:52,400 Speaker 1: you see dots of blood, or you might see big 179 00:10:52,440 --> 00:10:55,360 Speaker 1: swipes of blood across that area, and it kind of 180 00:10:55,400 --> 00:10:59,480 Speaker 1: gives you this interesting pattern of movement and you begin 181 00:10:59,520 --> 00:11:02,360 Speaker 1: to interpret that. And you know, I find it very 182 00:11:02,400 --> 00:11:05,760 Speaker 1: interesting that in this particular case that the police found 183 00:11:06,280 --> 00:11:09,000 Speaker 1: not just blood within the cabin of the car, but 184 00:11:09,040 --> 00:11:12,040 Speaker 1: they also found blood on the exterior of the trunk 185 00:11:12,040 --> 00:11:33,800 Speaker 1: of this car. Jackie as a death investigator, many times 186 00:11:33,800 --> 00:11:38,960 Speaker 1: I've reflected back to that Bible verse from Genesis where 187 00:11:39,679 --> 00:11:43,480 Speaker 1: God confronts Kane and he asked, Kane, you know where's 188 00:11:43,480 --> 00:11:46,360 Speaker 1: they ablet Your brother Kane is kind of like, I 189 00:11:46,400 --> 00:11:49,360 Speaker 1: don't know, and I think, and I'm certainly paraphrasing. I'm 190 00:11:49,400 --> 00:11:53,120 Speaker 1: no theologian, but he says, your brother's blood cries out 191 00:11:53,240 --> 00:11:57,439 Speaker 1: from the ground, and from an investigative standpoint, blood does 192 00:11:57,520 --> 00:12:00,719 Speaker 1: cry out to you. It tells you things. It's an 193 00:12:00,720 --> 00:12:05,160 Speaker 1: indicator of motion, it's an indicator of placement, it's an 194 00:12:05,160 --> 00:12:09,800 Speaker 1: indicator of activity. Well, Joe, blood does not tell me 195 00:12:09,880 --> 00:12:12,160 Speaker 1: as much as it does you. So I got lots 196 00:12:12,240 --> 00:12:14,480 Speaker 1: more questions for you. So let's go back inside the 197 00:12:14,520 --> 00:12:17,080 Speaker 1: car you were talking about. Blood was found on the outside. Again, 198 00:12:17,800 --> 00:12:22,040 Speaker 1: I'm still inside the car. Blood was found on the 199 00:12:22,120 --> 00:12:25,400 Speaker 1: driver's side and in the backseat. But there was so 200 00:12:25,480 --> 00:12:28,280 Speaker 1: much more evidence that was found, so I want to 201 00:12:28,320 --> 00:12:33,160 Speaker 1: know how this would have been handled. Latex gloves were found, 202 00:12:33,440 --> 00:12:36,720 Speaker 1: and of course my limited knowledge, I went, oh, yeah, 203 00:12:36,800 --> 00:12:40,760 Speaker 1: we've got fingerprints on the inside and DNA on the inside. 204 00:12:40,760 --> 00:12:43,360 Speaker 1: And then we find out that there may have been 205 00:12:43,400 --> 00:12:46,600 Speaker 1: a fire set inside the car, and I go, okay, 206 00:12:46,760 --> 00:12:49,840 Speaker 1: was that intentional? I learned in way too much from you, Joe. 207 00:12:50,240 --> 00:12:53,160 Speaker 1: Let's terrifying on so many levels, Jackie. But yeah, yeah, 208 00:12:53,200 --> 00:12:55,160 Speaker 1: you're absolutely right, and you're a great student. You're probably 209 00:12:55,160 --> 00:12:57,680 Speaker 1: one of the best students I've had. Well, we spent 210 00:12:57,760 --> 00:13:00,520 Speaker 1: a lot of time together. But okays me, sup we 211 00:13:00,559 --> 00:13:03,760 Speaker 1: do when you look into an environment and listen, one 212 00:13:03,800 --> 00:13:05,920 Speaker 1: of the things you have to consider as an investigator. 213 00:13:06,080 --> 00:13:09,840 Speaker 1: When I see bloody gloves, most of the time, I 214 00:13:09,920 --> 00:13:14,200 Speaker 1: don't automatically think perpetrator. Unfortunately, when I show up at 215 00:13:14,200 --> 00:13:17,640 Speaker 1: a scene and I see bloody blue late tech gloves, 216 00:13:17,960 --> 00:13:21,080 Speaker 1: the first thing I think of is EMT. And this 217 00:13:21,120 --> 00:13:22,920 Speaker 1: is why this is very important and kind of let 218 00:13:22,960 --> 00:13:26,520 Speaker 1: me make this point so so that our listeners understand. 219 00:13:27,200 --> 00:13:30,240 Speaker 1: When we're at the scene and you have what would 220 00:13:30,360 --> 00:13:33,440 Speaker 1: commonly be referred to as kind of life saving debris 221 00:13:33,640 --> 00:13:37,680 Speaker 1: that's out there, and this includes bloodied gloves, they don't 222 00:13:37,679 --> 00:13:41,040 Speaker 1: throw that stuff away. You retain it, You take pictures 223 00:13:41,040 --> 00:13:43,360 Speaker 1: of it. You don't say, hey, let's take a picture 224 00:13:43,520 --> 00:13:46,920 Speaker 1: of a dead body and but remove all the debris 225 00:13:47,000 --> 00:13:50,280 Speaker 1: that the EMT's left behind. You know when you take 226 00:13:50,320 --> 00:13:52,679 Speaker 1: the photo, you can't do that. That's altering the scene. 227 00:13:52,720 --> 00:13:57,680 Speaker 1: So those gloves that are at the scene, within this car, 228 00:13:57,840 --> 00:14:00,440 Speaker 1: that's part and parcel. Even if they were left behind, 229 00:14:00,520 --> 00:14:02,840 Speaker 1: which I don't think they were by an EMT, but 230 00:14:02,880 --> 00:14:04,560 Speaker 1: that's one of the things that you think about. You 231 00:14:04,640 --> 00:14:08,200 Speaker 1: don't just toss things away because the smallest amount of 232 00:14:08,240 --> 00:14:12,800 Speaker 1: evidence can really turn the case. If you exclude the 233 00:14:12,840 --> 00:14:16,080 Speaker 1: emergency medical technicians that may have rolled out on any 234 00:14:16,120 --> 00:14:20,600 Speaker 1: particular scene, and you have bloody gloves, well, automatically your 235 00:14:20,640 --> 00:14:23,240 Speaker 1: default position is I didn't leave them. You didn't leave them, 236 00:14:23,240 --> 00:14:26,280 Speaker 1: so who did? And you think, well, this has got connection. 237 00:14:26,840 --> 00:14:30,280 Speaker 1: And also when you see gloves, it gives you a 238 00:14:30,360 --> 00:14:34,360 Speaker 1: sense that the individual that may have been involved in 239 00:14:34,360 --> 00:14:41,120 Speaker 1: this event was prepared. And that's kind of that puts 240 00:14:41,160 --> 00:14:45,320 Speaker 1: the case into a completely different realm at that moment, 241 00:14:45,920 --> 00:14:49,280 Speaker 1: because you have an individual that if they committed a 242 00:14:49,320 --> 00:14:53,120 Speaker 1: homicide and they had gloves when they did it, they 243 00:14:53,200 --> 00:14:55,720 Speaker 1: thought about it, They thought about what they were doing, 244 00:14:55,840 --> 00:14:58,640 Speaker 1: they thought about their actions, they thought about leaving a 245 00:14:58,680 --> 00:15:01,720 Speaker 1: trace of themselves. Going back to my old friend ed 246 00:15:01,800 --> 00:15:05,200 Speaker 1: mod Lecard, every contact leaves a trace, and they're trying 247 00:15:05,240 --> 00:15:09,160 Speaker 1: to do everything that can to thwart it. It's amazing 248 00:15:09,480 --> 00:15:13,240 Speaker 1: to me. You know, you'd mentioned recovering evidence from within gloves, 249 00:15:13,240 --> 00:15:15,760 Speaker 1: and that is possible. You can't get trace evidence off 250 00:15:15,760 --> 00:15:18,840 Speaker 1: of a perpetrator from within the gloves depend upon how 251 00:15:18,920 --> 00:15:21,880 Speaker 1: carefully you treat it. Why in the world would you 252 00:15:21,960 --> 00:15:24,800 Speaker 1: leave the gloves behind. It's almost like they're not thinking. 253 00:15:25,240 --> 00:15:28,560 Speaker 1: It's almost like an incomplete event. At that moment, you 254 00:15:28,720 --> 00:15:30,760 Speaker 1: thought to bring the gloves, but you didn't think to 255 00:15:30,800 --> 00:15:32,800 Speaker 1: take them with you. You just thought that you'd tear 256 00:15:32,840 --> 00:15:35,000 Speaker 1: them off and just lay them there and that they 257 00:15:35,000 --> 00:15:38,120 Speaker 1: wouldn't be collected as evidence. So that's kind of a 258 00:15:38,120 --> 00:15:41,480 Speaker 1: fascinating thing to me. But when you have gloves, that 259 00:15:41,560 --> 00:15:43,920 Speaker 1: means that you want to create a barrier between yourself 260 00:15:43,920 --> 00:15:48,160 Speaker 1: and whatever item that you're touching. And so if there 261 00:15:48,280 --> 00:15:51,240 Speaker 1: is blood from a victim, a specific victim that can 262 00:15:51,320 --> 00:15:54,960 Speaker 1: tie back, it gives you an idea that after blood 263 00:15:54,960 --> 00:15:59,520 Speaker 1: had been spilled, these gloves are essentially stained with it. 264 00:16:00,880 --> 00:16:02,760 Speaker 1: You begin to think, well, what was the purpose of 265 00:16:02,800 --> 00:16:05,760 Speaker 1: the gloves. Was it to hide points of contact on 266 00:16:05,800 --> 00:16:08,360 Speaker 1: a weapon that was used, or was it to thwart 267 00:16:08,400 --> 00:16:11,120 Speaker 1: the investigators to try to determine who handled the body 268 00:16:11,160 --> 00:16:15,600 Speaker 1: in a postmortem sense the fire they had evidence of 269 00:16:15,640 --> 00:16:19,000 Speaker 1: a fire at that point, would you have to bring 270 00:16:19,160 --> 00:16:24,680 Speaker 1: in an arson team or can investigated personnel like yourself 271 00:16:25,360 --> 00:16:29,520 Speaker 1: death that's seen investigators do all of those determinations and 272 00:16:29,640 --> 00:16:33,480 Speaker 1: diagnosis as well. No, never, if I have access to 273 00:16:33,600 --> 00:16:35,960 Speaker 1: arson personnel, I'm reaching out to them. These are some 274 00:16:36,000 --> 00:16:39,000 Speaker 1: of the most highly trained individuals and they are specifically 275 00:16:39,000 --> 00:16:41,840 Speaker 1: trained to deal with fire. I know enough about fire 276 00:16:41,840 --> 00:16:44,080 Speaker 1: to be dangerous from a forensic standpoint, and I can 277 00:16:44,120 --> 00:16:47,640 Speaker 1: interpret certain things. But when you begin to consider what 278 00:16:48,000 --> 00:16:50,560 Speaker 1: arson investigators the level of training that they go through, 279 00:16:50,600 --> 00:16:54,760 Speaker 1: because many times and many jurisdictions, for instance, arson investigators 280 00:16:54,760 --> 00:16:58,160 Speaker 1: are not just Many of them start off as firefighters 281 00:16:58,240 --> 00:17:01,200 Speaker 1: and then they go to the police academy and become 282 00:17:01,200 --> 00:17:04,159 Speaker 1: police officers as well, and then they go through arson training. 283 00:17:04,760 --> 00:17:09,800 Speaker 1: So these people have extensive trainings for this purpose alone. 284 00:17:10,320 --> 00:17:13,760 Speaker 1: So if I have these individuals in my rolodecks, if 285 00:17:13,800 --> 00:17:15,320 Speaker 1: you will, to use an old term, if I have 286 00:17:15,400 --> 00:17:17,520 Speaker 1: them in my contacts and phone, I'm hopping on the 287 00:17:17,520 --> 00:17:20,000 Speaker 1: phone with them. Because look, you and we talked about 288 00:17:20,040 --> 00:17:22,520 Speaker 1: this on bodybacks. You get one first chance to get 289 00:17:22,560 --> 00:17:25,560 Speaker 1: it right. If I say, oh, well, I'm the smartest 290 00:17:25,560 --> 00:17:27,159 Speaker 1: person in the room, I'm going to go ahead and 291 00:17:27,240 --> 00:17:30,520 Speaker 1: handle the area over here that looks like burning has 292 00:17:30,520 --> 00:17:33,320 Speaker 1: taken place and I screwed up, which there's a high 293 00:17:33,359 --> 00:17:35,880 Speaker 1: probability I would because I'm going to miss something I'm 294 00:17:35,920 --> 00:17:37,920 Speaker 1: not specifically trained in that area. I'm going to call 295 00:17:37,960 --> 00:17:40,080 Speaker 1: my friends from Arson. I've got a lot of really 296 00:17:40,119 --> 00:17:42,720 Speaker 1: good friends that are arson investigators, and what they can 297 00:17:42,800 --> 00:17:46,640 Speaker 1: do in that kind of environment is absolutely amazing. They 298 00:17:46,640 --> 00:17:49,600 Speaker 1: know what evidence to collect, they know how to interpret 299 00:17:49,840 --> 00:17:52,960 Speaker 1: the fire. They can tell you, for instance, how hot 300 00:17:53,000 --> 00:17:55,720 Speaker 1: the fire was. They can begin to search things out 301 00:17:55,760 --> 00:17:59,119 Speaker 1: to look for deposits of accelerant. They know how to 302 00:17:59,119 --> 00:18:01,400 Speaker 1: collect it and how to process it, who to talk 303 00:18:01,400 --> 00:18:03,879 Speaker 1: to at the lab. They speak the language, because a 304 00:18:03,920 --> 00:18:08,480 Speaker 1: lot about forensics is learning to specifically speak the language 305 00:18:08,840 --> 00:18:12,920 Speaker 1: and understand where to route evidence too, and Urson investigators 306 00:18:12,920 --> 00:18:15,480 Speaker 1: are the best at this. So yeah, I'm sure that 307 00:18:15,640 --> 00:18:17,639 Speaker 1: in this particular case they would have reached out to 308 00:18:17,680 --> 00:18:20,200 Speaker 1: people that our fire investigators would have brought them out 309 00:18:20,480 --> 00:18:22,840 Speaker 1: and asked for their opinion, and they would have generated 310 00:18:22,840 --> 00:18:26,040 Speaker 1: a report in this case as well. Okay, so my 311 00:18:26,200 --> 00:18:30,320 Speaker 1: inquiring mind has gone off into left field. We've all 312 00:18:30,359 --> 00:18:33,760 Speaker 1: seen on TV all those little evidence markers, you know, 313 00:18:34,200 --> 00:18:36,960 Speaker 1: number twenty two yellow tag with the pictures going to 314 00:18:37,000 --> 00:18:45,160 Speaker 1: be taken. How many bags pieces slides of evidence can 315 00:18:45,200 --> 00:18:49,560 Speaker 1: be generated from a crime scene like this, Each individual 316 00:18:49,720 --> 00:18:52,520 Speaker 1: piece of evidence. Let's say, for instance, those gloves, okay 317 00:18:52,520 --> 00:18:56,120 Speaker 1: that we mentioned, those are not to be packaged together, 318 00:18:56,520 --> 00:19:00,600 Speaker 1: all right. Each glove is an individual piece of evidence, 319 00:19:00,640 --> 00:19:03,840 Speaker 1: and it will be assigned a very specific number, and 320 00:19:03,880 --> 00:19:06,600 Speaker 1: it will be analyzed in and of itself. It will 321 00:19:06,640 --> 00:19:09,320 Speaker 1: not be analyzed with the other glove. It's like any item. 322 00:19:09,359 --> 00:19:12,320 Speaker 1: If you have two blood soak socks that are removed from, 323 00:19:12,840 --> 00:19:16,879 Speaker 1: say a deceased person's feet, each sock is an individual 324 00:19:16,880 --> 00:19:20,560 Speaker 1: piece of evidence. Any fiber collected, say from below the 325 00:19:20,640 --> 00:19:24,640 Speaker 1: knee with a tape lift at autopsy, is different than 326 00:19:24,640 --> 00:19:27,560 Speaker 1: the tape lift that you're going to get from superior 327 00:19:27,600 --> 00:19:30,600 Speaker 1: to the knee. Those are all individual pieces of evidence. 328 00:19:30,600 --> 00:19:33,959 Speaker 1: So when you begin to kind of calculate, and I 329 00:19:34,000 --> 00:19:36,359 Speaker 1: think folks are surprised to hear this, when you begin 330 00:19:36,400 --> 00:19:39,040 Speaker 1: to calculate the volume of evidence that you take out 331 00:19:39,720 --> 00:19:43,440 Speaker 1: of a scene, it can be staggering. I've actually been 332 00:19:43,520 --> 00:19:46,560 Speaker 1: on scenes. I remember one night in particular, we had 333 00:19:46,600 --> 00:19:49,600 Speaker 1: such an extensive scene within a house. We had to 334 00:19:49,640 --> 00:19:53,119 Speaker 1: call out two vans, full size vans like a connal 335 00:19:53,200 --> 00:19:56,120 Speaker 1: line size vans to haul off all of the evidence 336 00:19:56,160 --> 00:19:59,480 Speaker 1: that we had and those were in paperbacks. We had 337 00:19:59,520 --> 00:20:03,480 Speaker 1: bagged things individually at that scene, and we filled up 338 00:20:03,520 --> 00:20:06,880 Speaker 1: to two large vans, So you can go as deep 339 00:20:06,920 --> 00:20:10,080 Speaker 1: with this as you possibly want. Yeah, wait, wait, wait 340 00:20:10,080 --> 00:20:13,080 Speaker 1: wait wait, do you mean like one bag side by 341 00:20:13,200 --> 00:20:16,359 Speaker 1: side throughout the entire van? Are you just kind of 342 00:20:16,400 --> 00:20:19,240 Speaker 1: talking on the shelves and things that are installed. Well, 343 00:20:19,240 --> 00:20:20,720 Speaker 1: it all depends on, you know, if we want to 344 00:20:20,720 --> 00:20:23,640 Speaker 1: get into a volume contest, like judging how many jelly 345 00:20:23,680 --> 00:20:25,280 Speaker 1: beans are in a big class jar. I guess we 346 00:20:25,320 --> 00:20:27,959 Speaker 1: could do that, but it's gonna be hard to calculate that. 347 00:20:28,160 --> 00:20:29,840 Speaker 1: It's it's a vast number, and you have to be 348 00:20:29,920 --> 00:20:34,600 Speaker 1: very careful with it. This is why, because each thing 349 00:20:34,680 --> 00:20:39,880 Speaker 1: contained in that bag has individual value from a scientific standpoint, 350 00:20:39,960 --> 00:20:41,960 Speaker 1: you have to be very careful with it. There's certain 351 00:20:42,000 --> 00:20:44,840 Speaker 1: things that potentially could be jostled around and you're not 352 00:20:44,840 --> 00:20:46,959 Speaker 1: going to do any damage to them. But there are 353 00:20:47,000 --> 00:20:49,240 Speaker 1: other things, say, for instance, that you don't want to 354 00:20:49,320 --> 00:20:52,359 Speaker 1: stack on top of one another. Say, for instance, if 355 00:20:52,359 --> 00:20:55,919 Speaker 1: you do, in fact have a blood soaked item, you 356 00:20:55,920 --> 00:20:58,320 Speaker 1: don't want to crunch that down in the bag because 357 00:20:58,480 --> 00:21:01,800 Speaker 1: that could perhaps transfer or blood on one aspect of 358 00:21:01,800 --> 00:21:04,359 Speaker 1: an item to another aspect of the item that didn't 359 00:21:04,400 --> 00:21:06,920 Speaker 1: have blood on it before. So you have to think 360 00:21:06,960 --> 00:21:09,560 Speaker 1: about all of this. Everything that you do has to 361 00:21:09,560 --> 00:21:11,520 Speaker 1: have purpose behind it, and you have to be able 362 00:21:11,560 --> 00:21:13,240 Speaker 1: to justify it. You have to be able to justify 363 00:21:13,280 --> 00:21:16,879 Speaker 1: it to yourself and everybody work with. But also you 364 00:21:16,960 --> 00:21:19,479 Speaker 1: have to justify it in court because when you get 365 00:21:19,560 --> 00:21:22,480 Speaker 1: up on the stand to testify to the validity of 366 00:21:22,520 --> 00:21:25,960 Speaker 1: that evidence, how it was handled and everything, you better 367 00:21:26,000 --> 00:21:29,600 Speaker 1: bring your a game. And because their attorneys out there 368 00:21:29,320 --> 00:21:32,840 Speaker 1: that are that are bright enough to ask you questions 369 00:21:32,880 --> 00:21:37,040 Speaker 1: specific to these points. How was this evidence treated? Okay, 370 00:21:37,040 --> 00:21:41,639 Speaker 1: So back to the car. Investigators look inside, find the 371 00:21:41,680 --> 00:21:46,280 Speaker 1: blood nobody. Then they pop the trunk and they find 372 00:21:46,320 --> 00:21:50,320 Speaker 1: it doctor Thomas Burchard. He has been in this vehicle 373 00:21:50,480 --> 00:21:53,800 Speaker 1: for several days out in the desert on top of 374 00:21:53,840 --> 00:21:57,840 Speaker 1: this berm Now, the only good thing about this investigation 375 00:21:58,920 --> 00:22:02,000 Speaker 1: would have to be that it was March and not 376 00:22:02,280 --> 00:22:07,760 Speaker 1: July or August, and he was enclosed. I guess good 377 00:22:07,960 --> 00:22:12,439 Speaker 1: is probably not a great term, but a valid point 378 00:22:12,600 --> 00:22:15,800 Speaker 1: in this investigation. The conditions that you are in the 379 00:22:15,880 --> 00:22:22,159 Speaker 1: lower temperatures and enclosed space is going to preserve the evidence. 380 00:22:22,280 --> 00:22:26,439 Speaker 1: I eat the body better. Oh boy, you're right on 381 00:22:26,480 --> 00:22:30,040 Speaker 1: the money with that, Jackie. And here's why, because it 382 00:22:30,119 --> 00:22:33,480 Speaker 1: is the best term for me is advantageous. You look 383 00:22:33,520 --> 00:22:36,600 Speaker 1: for advantages as an investigator at a scene, and this 384 00:22:36,800 --> 00:22:39,640 Speaker 1: is an advantage. Remember in the opening I talked about 385 00:22:39,640 --> 00:22:42,479 Speaker 1: how vast this area is. We're talking about the desert, 386 00:22:42,600 --> 00:22:45,640 Speaker 1: all right, it just goes on for miles and miles 387 00:22:45,640 --> 00:22:51,080 Speaker 1: and miles and miles. They could have scattered remains all 388 00:22:51,080 --> 00:22:53,199 Speaker 1: over the place, but not in this case, they have 389 00:22:53,320 --> 00:22:59,600 Speaker 1: contained remains. And so for us as investigators, when you 390 00:23:00,000 --> 00:23:04,359 Speaker 1: put up a trunk as foul as this is, as 391 00:23:04,640 --> 00:23:08,119 Speaker 1: horrific as it is, you have the advantage in a 392 00:23:08,160 --> 00:23:12,520 Speaker 1: case like this because you have essentially a contained crime 393 00:23:12,560 --> 00:23:15,320 Speaker 1: scene within this environment. And you know, we have kind 394 00:23:15,320 --> 00:23:17,399 Speaker 1: of a way that we grade crime scenes, or that 395 00:23:17,440 --> 00:23:20,200 Speaker 1: we refer to crime scenes. For us as medical legal 396 00:23:20,200 --> 00:23:24,080 Speaker 1: death investigators, the area or the location where we find 397 00:23:24,080 --> 00:23:26,560 Speaker 1: the body that's going to be what we would refer 398 00:23:26,600 --> 00:23:30,359 Speaker 1: to as a primary crime scene because, with no disrespect 399 00:23:30,359 --> 00:23:33,960 Speaker 1: to the dead, but the body is the largest piece 400 00:23:34,000 --> 00:23:36,800 Speaker 1: of evidence that you have, Okay, you want to be 401 00:23:36,840 --> 00:23:39,520 Speaker 1: able to preserve it, to try to there's this word again, 402 00:23:39,520 --> 00:23:42,920 Speaker 1: and try to keep it as pristine as possible. And 403 00:23:43,080 --> 00:23:48,200 Speaker 1: in this gentleman's death, when they placed his body into 404 00:23:48,240 --> 00:23:52,040 Speaker 1: the trunk of this car, they did the investigators a 405 00:23:52,080 --> 00:23:55,840 Speaker 1: favor because for that moment, this body is sealed away. 406 00:23:56,480 --> 00:24:01,320 Speaker 1: You don't have the external environment, which could now highly unlikely. 407 00:24:01,720 --> 00:24:03,760 Speaker 1: It's not gonna be rain. You're in the desert. I 408 00:24:03,840 --> 00:24:06,240 Speaker 1: know they do have a monsoon season. I'm not quite 409 00:24:06,280 --> 00:24:08,439 Speaker 1: sure when that is. But you don't have rain. You 410 00:24:08,440 --> 00:24:10,840 Speaker 1: don't have to do Okay, they might set it in 411 00:24:10,840 --> 00:24:13,639 Speaker 1: the morning. You're not gonna have wind. Wind can really 412 00:24:13,720 --> 00:24:17,720 Speaker 1: impact a body. You don't have direct sunlight. And one 413 00:24:17,720 --> 00:24:20,280 Speaker 1: of the biggest things is that you don't have vermin. 414 00:24:20,560 --> 00:24:22,280 Speaker 1: You know, you're not gonna have coyotes that are going 415 00:24:22,359 --> 00:24:24,159 Speaker 1: to be walking up to the body and disrupting the 416 00:24:24,160 --> 00:24:26,919 Speaker 1: body as if it were laying outside of the car, 417 00:24:27,640 --> 00:24:30,360 Speaker 1: or any kind of other animals that might be out there. 418 00:24:30,400 --> 00:24:33,159 Speaker 1: It's actually kind of cocooned in a way and protected. 419 00:24:33,560 --> 00:24:37,159 Speaker 1: My thought is is that the best course with a 420 00:24:37,240 --> 00:24:40,000 Speaker 1: body and a car like this, and I've done this 421 00:24:40,119 --> 00:24:43,679 Speaker 1: on several occasions where we do not remove the body 422 00:24:44,320 --> 00:24:48,240 Speaker 1: from the vehicle at all. We have a flatbed truck 423 00:24:48,520 --> 00:24:52,320 Speaker 1: that comes out and we pull the vehicle up onto 424 00:24:52,359 --> 00:24:55,560 Speaker 1: the flatbed, and we take the body back to the 425 00:24:55,680 --> 00:24:59,280 Speaker 1: crime lab and the car in total is processed with 426 00:24:59,440 --> 00:25:02,360 Speaker 1: the body place and that way you don't disrupt anything. Now, 427 00:25:02,400 --> 00:25:05,320 Speaker 1: that's the ideals or circumstances that you work under, and 428 00:25:05,359 --> 00:25:08,080 Speaker 1: sometimes that can't happen. It doesn't happen in every case, 429 00:25:09,000 --> 00:25:12,199 Speaker 1: but for me as a forensics guy, that would be 430 00:25:12,200 --> 00:25:15,399 Speaker 1: my preference because I'm not going to lose anything. People 431 00:25:15,440 --> 00:25:17,560 Speaker 1: don't think, you know, well, gwiz, where are you gonna 432 00:25:17,600 --> 00:25:20,919 Speaker 1: lose Morgan? Well, if you just the simple act of 433 00:25:21,080 --> 00:25:24,320 Speaker 1: lifting a body out of this awkward space that you 434 00:25:24,400 --> 00:25:26,760 Speaker 1: have to draw the body out of essentially to get 435 00:25:26,760 --> 00:25:30,840 Speaker 1: it into a body bag, can create a disruption in 436 00:25:30,920 --> 00:25:34,200 Speaker 1: the continuity of the evidence. What if you were able 437 00:25:34,240 --> 00:25:38,680 Speaker 1: to take the entire car. You just said that moving 438 00:25:38,720 --> 00:25:43,480 Speaker 1: the body could possibly destroy tamper with the evidence. But 439 00:25:43,880 --> 00:25:47,280 Speaker 1: wouldn't tilting a car upon its axis to move it 440 00:25:47,320 --> 00:25:51,159 Speaker 1: onto a flat bed do the exact same thing, not 441 00:25:51,240 --> 00:25:53,600 Speaker 1: to the same degree as putting hands on it and 442 00:25:53,680 --> 00:25:56,760 Speaker 1: manipulating it. And there's a reason why people use the 443 00:25:56,880 --> 00:26:02,159 Speaker 1: term dead weight the weight of a deceased person is 444 00:26:02,600 --> 00:26:07,080 Speaker 1: the most awkward thing that anyone, well most people except 445 00:26:07,119 --> 00:26:10,199 Speaker 1: those that work on farms and carry things like sacks 446 00:26:10,200 --> 00:26:12,560 Speaker 1: of feed and try to deal with hay and all 447 00:26:12,560 --> 00:26:15,560 Speaker 1: that stuff. It is dead weight. It doesn't the body 448 00:26:15,600 --> 00:26:17,720 Speaker 1: does not help you. You know, when you lift somebody 449 00:26:18,119 --> 00:26:20,440 Speaker 1: and they're alive, you might not sense that they're helping. 450 00:26:20,680 --> 00:26:24,199 Speaker 1: They're helping you, and you're disrupting the body to a 451 00:26:24,240 --> 00:26:26,679 Speaker 1: great degree because you're moving the body. Let's say the 452 00:26:26,680 --> 00:26:29,720 Speaker 1: body is lying on the right side. Okay, lying on 453 00:26:29,760 --> 00:26:32,040 Speaker 1: the right side, and say, for instance, like a semi 454 00:26:32,040 --> 00:26:37,320 Speaker 1: fetal position. They've settled into that particular position. And also 455 00:26:37,400 --> 00:26:39,719 Speaker 1: there might be patterns of things that are coming up 456 00:26:39,760 --> 00:26:42,480 Speaker 1: off of the body that are underlying the body, and 457 00:26:42,560 --> 00:26:44,680 Speaker 1: it gives you an idea of the position of the body. 458 00:26:44,840 --> 00:26:46,720 Speaker 1: Was the person still alive and they put them in 459 00:26:46,760 --> 00:26:49,040 Speaker 1: the trunk or had they been dead prior to this 460 00:26:49,080 --> 00:26:51,520 Speaker 1: and they put them in the trunk. You lose kind 461 00:26:51,560 --> 00:26:54,560 Speaker 1: of context if you will, I think, in my opinion, 462 00:26:54,680 --> 00:26:58,120 Speaker 1: it's going to be much less disruptive to simply pull 463 00:26:58,160 --> 00:27:00,879 Speaker 1: the vehicle up onto a flatbed. It will be disruptive 464 00:27:00,880 --> 00:27:03,160 Speaker 1: with the body as opposed to taking the body out 465 00:27:03,640 --> 00:27:06,320 Speaker 1: and placing it into a bag and then jostling it 466 00:27:06,359 --> 00:27:08,520 Speaker 1: as you walk it back to a van that sparked 467 00:27:08,520 --> 00:27:11,080 Speaker 1: on the side of the road. Remember this is out 468 00:27:11,119 --> 00:27:13,760 Speaker 1: in the desert, okay, And so you're gonna have to 469 00:27:14,080 --> 00:27:16,680 Speaker 1: egress across this terrain, if you will, in order to 470 00:27:16,720 --> 00:27:18,399 Speaker 1: get it loaded up into a van. If you can 471 00:27:18,440 --> 00:27:22,240 Speaker 1: just take that body in place in the insight to 472 00:27:22,440 --> 00:27:24,640 Speaker 1: as they say, in place in the back of this car, 473 00:27:24,760 --> 00:27:27,640 Speaker 1: take it to the crime lab and process it that way, 474 00:27:28,000 --> 00:27:31,480 Speaker 1: that's the most ideal set of circumstances. Okay. So I'm 475 00:27:31,480 --> 00:27:34,440 Speaker 1: gonna let you move things as you find important, Joe. 476 00:27:34,920 --> 00:27:39,199 Speaker 1: But back to the trunk. When the investigators did remove 477 00:27:39,280 --> 00:27:43,880 Speaker 1: the body into the autopsy, they found that he had 478 00:27:43,920 --> 00:27:48,840 Speaker 1: been bludgeoned. And how did they figure that out? I know, 479 00:27:50,080 --> 00:27:52,399 Speaker 1: you know, you get meat with an instrument, you get 480 00:27:52,440 --> 00:27:55,920 Speaker 1: a certain amount of patternsplunt force, sharp force tells you 481 00:27:56,440 --> 00:27:59,640 Speaker 1: what he was beaten with. But how did they figure 482 00:27:59,720 --> 00:28:03,880 Speaker 1: out that heat been beaten? Bill? Unforced trauma is kind 483 00:28:03,880 --> 00:28:06,679 Speaker 1: of a curious thing. You have to try to do 484 00:28:06,760 --> 00:28:11,159 Speaker 1: an assessment many times on surfaces that are just encrusted 485 00:28:11,160 --> 00:28:15,280 Speaker 1: with blood, and particularly when their head strikes involved. As 486 00:28:15,320 --> 00:28:17,119 Speaker 1: I've mentioned on a number of occasions, you know, the 487 00:28:17,160 --> 00:28:19,879 Speaker 1: head is in fact the most vascular area of the body. 488 00:28:19,960 --> 00:28:22,639 Speaker 1: So when you have head strikes, the surfaces that are 489 00:28:22,720 --> 00:28:25,600 Speaker 1: kind of broken open as a result of blundforce trauma 490 00:28:25,680 --> 00:28:29,000 Speaker 1: are going to just be super saturated with blood, and 491 00:28:29,080 --> 00:28:31,280 Speaker 1: so it's hard to make heads of tails out of 492 00:28:31,280 --> 00:28:34,359 Speaker 1: what you're seeing. We do an initial examination in the 493 00:28:34,440 --> 00:28:38,800 Speaker 1: morgue where we'll look over the surface to see where 494 00:28:38,840 --> 00:28:42,080 Speaker 1: these insults have taken place, try to get an idea 495 00:28:42,120 --> 00:28:44,160 Speaker 1: of the degree of them, but you can never fully 496 00:28:44,200 --> 00:28:47,880 Speaker 1: appreciate them until well, to be quite honest with you, 497 00:28:48,000 --> 00:28:52,120 Speaker 1: we wash the individual's hair really clean the head off 498 00:28:52,280 --> 00:28:55,080 Speaker 1: very very well, and if they have hair still in place. 499 00:28:55,240 --> 00:28:58,080 Speaker 1: Most people don't realize this. We shave the head. We 500 00:28:58,440 --> 00:29:01,880 Speaker 1: take generally the edge of a apple, which are very 501 00:29:02,000 --> 00:29:05,160 Speaker 1: very sharp, and it's a real skill set that you 502 00:29:05,200 --> 00:29:08,400 Speaker 1: possess if you're an autopsy assistant or a forensic pathologist 503 00:29:08,480 --> 00:29:10,760 Speaker 1: in shave back the hair and you try to fully 504 00:29:10,920 --> 00:29:14,600 Speaker 1: appreciate what's going on beneath the hair itself, because the 505 00:29:14,640 --> 00:29:17,760 Speaker 1: hair can obscure a lot of things, and it's at 506 00:29:17,760 --> 00:29:20,040 Speaker 1: that point that in this particular case that they would 507 00:29:20,040 --> 00:29:23,080 Speaker 1: have been able to assess how many individual strikes, because 508 00:29:23,120 --> 00:29:28,160 Speaker 1: every time a blunt object strikes a surface like the skull, 509 00:29:28,680 --> 00:29:32,440 Speaker 1: it will essentially laceerate the skin. Now, keep in mind, 510 00:29:32,480 --> 00:29:35,520 Speaker 1: I did not say cut the skin, because that's something 511 00:29:35,560 --> 00:29:39,160 Speaker 1: that people get confused over many, many times. It's not 512 00:29:39,200 --> 00:29:41,920 Speaker 1: a matter of a cut. This is a laceration, and 513 00:29:41,960 --> 00:29:45,480 Speaker 1: they're completely two different things. Cut implies that you're using 514 00:29:46,280 --> 00:29:49,120 Speaker 1: a sharp edged instrument, okay, and it's going to be 515 00:29:49,240 --> 00:29:51,200 Speaker 1: very linear in shape, and you're going to have these 516 00:29:51,280 --> 00:29:54,640 Speaker 1: kind of what's referred to as smooth margins. It looks 517 00:29:54,680 --> 00:29:59,200 Speaker 1: like a machined blade, which a knife would be, has 518 00:29:59,360 --> 00:30:05,160 Speaker 1: sliced through tissue, all right, and the tissue is completely straight. 519 00:30:05,760 --> 00:30:10,440 Speaker 1: The injury is straight with sharp fours and very ordered. Now, 520 00:30:11,080 --> 00:30:17,040 Speaker 1: with a laceration, many times the injury will be very jagged. 521 00:30:17,520 --> 00:30:20,520 Speaker 1: They leave very nasty breaks in the skin. And one 522 00:30:20,520 --> 00:30:23,360 Speaker 1: of the ways we ascertain this is a check for 523 00:30:23,440 --> 00:30:26,720 Speaker 1: what's referred to as tissue bridging. And one of the 524 00:30:26,720 --> 00:30:30,320 Speaker 1: ways you can kind of understand this concept is the 525 00:30:30,440 --> 00:30:32,840 Speaker 1: next time you go out to eat a meal and 526 00:30:32,920 --> 00:30:36,600 Speaker 1: you're eating steak or chicken, particularly you take a knife 527 00:30:36,760 --> 00:30:38,880 Speaker 1: and you cut through, say you cut a piece of 528 00:30:38,920 --> 00:30:41,280 Speaker 1: steak or cut a piece of chicken. Look at the 529 00:30:41,400 --> 00:30:44,960 Speaker 1: edges of that meat that you just cut. It is 530 00:30:45,000 --> 00:30:50,440 Speaker 1: going to be very uniformed. However, if you take a 531 00:30:50,440 --> 00:30:52,280 Speaker 1: piece of meat and you pick it up with your 532 00:30:52,320 --> 00:30:56,880 Speaker 1: hands and you pull it apart, it gets stringy, doesn't it. 533 00:30:57,040 --> 00:30:59,480 Speaker 1: I don't care how tender the cut is. It gets 534 00:30:59,520 --> 00:31:01,800 Speaker 1: stringy if you just kind of pause just for a 535 00:31:01,800 --> 00:31:04,040 Speaker 1: second before you completely pull it apart, you'll see these 536 00:31:04,040 --> 00:31:06,720 Speaker 1: little strings at tissue. Well, that's what we refer to 537 00:31:06,760 --> 00:31:11,520 Speaker 1: in forensic science as tissue bridging. Bridging does not occur 538 00:31:12,160 --> 00:31:15,560 Speaker 1: with a sharp instrument. You have to have blunt instruments 539 00:31:15,600 --> 00:31:17,959 Speaker 1: to do that. So when we look at an injury 540 00:31:18,000 --> 00:31:21,160 Speaker 1: and assess it either at the scene or at the morgue, 541 00:31:21,400 --> 00:31:25,080 Speaker 1: we're looking for what's referred to as tissue bridging. Another 542 00:31:25,120 --> 00:31:28,240 Speaker 1: thing that they're going to look for, and pathologists will 543 00:31:28,360 --> 00:31:31,520 Speaker 1: use these ten dollar words, they're going to look for 544 00:31:31,600 --> 00:31:36,200 Speaker 1: associated echymosis. And what that means is there is surrounding hemorrhage, 545 00:31:36,560 --> 00:31:39,040 Speaker 1: which you see many times with blunt force trauma. So 546 00:31:39,080 --> 00:31:42,200 Speaker 1: if you can imagine an individual being struck by a 547 00:31:42,320 --> 00:31:46,200 Speaker 1: rod like an iron rod or perhaps a hammer, it 548 00:31:46,240 --> 00:31:50,680 Speaker 1: will leave at least in the predepth state or the 549 00:31:50,680 --> 00:31:53,440 Speaker 1: anti mordern state. It will leave these little areas of 550 00:31:53,480 --> 00:31:57,920 Speaker 1: echymosis or hemorrhage around that lacerated area. And that's how 551 00:31:57,960 --> 00:32:04,080 Speaker 1: we assess a blunt force injury. And also below the 552 00:32:04,120 --> 00:32:06,800 Speaker 1: surface of the scalp, we're talking about a head injury. Here, 553 00:32:06,880 --> 00:32:10,640 Speaker 1: a blunt force head injury, you can very well have 554 00:32:11,040 --> 00:32:13,720 Speaker 1: fracturing of what's called the external table of the skull, 555 00:32:13,800 --> 00:32:15,760 Speaker 1: and that is that layer of the skull that is 556 00:32:15,880 --> 00:32:20,360 Speaker 1: on the outside external and if it's with enough force, 557 00:32:21,440 --> 00:32:24,840 Speaker 1: the individual can sustain what's called a depressed skull fracture, 558 00:32:24,880 --> 00:32:29,840 Speaker 1: which means it actually drives the external tissue the skin, 559 00:32:30,280 --> 00:32:33,880 Speaker 1: for instance, of the scalp, the muscle down through the 560 00:32:33,920 --> 00:32:37,120 Speaker 1: external table of the skull and it's collapsing it in 561 00:32:37,120 --> 00:32:40,200 Speaker 1: into the cranial vault, many times into the surface of 562 00:32:40,240 --> 00:32:42,800 Speaker 1: the brain actually in the moment will actually fragment and 563 00:32:42,840 --> 00:32:45,960 Speaker 1: go down in there. And that's an indication. And this 564 00:32:46,040 --> 00:32:48,720 Speaker 1: is important from a dynamic standpoint when you're thinking about 565 00:32:48,760 --> 00:32:51,920 Speaker 1: assessing what happened at the scene. You're trying to assess 566 00:32:52,040 --> 00:32:54,840 Speaker 1: whether or not there was a very strong person that 567 00:32:54,960 --> 00:32:58,560 Speaker 1: was wielding the instrument as opposed to say, a lighter strike. 568 00:32:58,640 --> 00:33:00,959 Speaker 1: That might give you an indication that maybe not as 569 00:33:01,040 --> 00:33:05,000 Speaker 1: much strength or velocity was applied to the weapon that 570 00:33:05,120 --> 00:33:27,200 Speaker 1: was used. Given the fact that so much blood was 571 00:33:27,200 --> 00:33:29,120 Speaker 1: found within the cabin of the car and certainly in 572 00:33:29,160 --> 00:33:32,600 Speaker 1: the trunk, I think that the police in this case 573 00:33:32,680 --> 00:33:36,400 Speaker 1: have a real head scratcher going on. Is it possible 574 00:33:36,440 --> 00:33:40,440 Speaker 1: to beat someone to death in the front seat of 575 00:33:40,440 --> 00:33:42,320 Speaker 1: the car? I remember there was blood on the headrest, 576 00:33:42,360 --> 00:33:45,440 Speaker 1: there was blood on the seat. Or was the individual 577 00:33:45,520 --> 00:33:48,760 Speaker 1: transferred from the vehicle into the trunk of the car? 578 00:33:49,160 --> 00:33:53,440 Speaker 1: Did this maybe occur in another location and the car 579 00:33:53,520 --> 00:33:56,680 Speaker 1: was used to transport the individual somewhere I don't know. 580 00:33:57,360 --> 00:34:02,520 Speaker 1: So as the investigation unfolded, Lease learned and were able 581 00:34:02,720 --> 00:34:07,200 Speaker 1: to pinpoint where Bouchard had spent the last three days. 582 00:34:07,920 --> 00:34:13,760 Speaker 1: He had been visiting an old patient, Kelsey Turner, twenty 583 00:34:13,760 --> 00:34:17,440 Speaker 1: five years old. She is a model and an actress 584 00:34:17,520 --> 00:34:24,239 Speaker 1: on Instagram and there was a relationship between her and 585 00:34:24,480 --> 00:34:28,239 Speaker 1: doctor Bouchard. At the time, we did not know what 586 00:34:28,280 --> 00:34:32,880 Speaker 1: their relationship was. Now we know that doctor Bouchard was 587 00:34:33,000 --> 00:34:36,200 Speaker 1: paying for the home that she lived in, paying for 588 00:34:36,520 --> 00:34:42,480 Speaker 1: credit cards, and they had an intimate relationship. Police were 589 00:34:42,520 --> 00:34:45,080 Speaker 1: able to go back to the home and at the 590 00:34:45,160 --> 00:34:51,480 Speaker 1: home they found a situation that was pretty similar to 591 00:34:51,920 --> 00:34:57,360 Speaker 1: what they found in the car. There was blood. The 592 00:34:57,440 --> 00:35:00,840 Speaker 1: blood in the vehicle doesn't marry where the blood that 593 00:35:00,960 --> 00:35:05,480 Speaker 1: is spilled at this scene, at this home, if you will. 594 00:35:05,640 --> 00:35:08,319 Speaker 1: And that's going to be essential because you go back 595 00:35:08,360 --> 00:35:10,759 Speaker 1: to the dynamics of the event and what were the 596 00:35:10,800 --> 00:35:14,920 Speaker 1: patterns of blood that they found within the home. Obviously 597 00:35:14,960 --> 00:35:18,520 Speaker 1: they have blood. We have this this door that's within 598 00:35:18,560 --> 00:35:21,680 Speaker 1: the house that had apparently been knocked off of the hinges. 599 00:35:21,960 --> 00:35:25,960 Speaker 1: You start talking about things becoming unhinged or being knocked 600 00:35:25,960 --> 00:35:29,440 Speaker 1: off the hinges, that that those are action terms. We're 601 00:35:29,480 --> 00:35:32,760 Speaker 1: talking about a tussle that's going on, maybe with great 602 00:35:32,840 --> 00:35:37,680 Speaker 1: force that's being applied to try to subdue doctor Bouchard. 603 00:35:38,040 --> 00:35:39,839 Speaker 1: And one of the things you have to consider is 604 00:35:40,080 --> 00:35:43,600 Speaker 1: was he taken unaware in this place. He shows up 605 00:35:43,719 --> 00:35:46,880 Speaker 1: to talk to this woman and to try to engage 606 00:35:46,920 --> 00:35:49,680 Speaker 1: with her and to tell her that things are quickly 607 00:35:49,719 --> 00:35:53,120 Speaker 1: coming to an end, perhaps in their relationship, and then 608 00:35:53,280 --> 00:35:57,720 Speaker 1: she's essentially laying in wait. She knows that he's coming well, 609 00:35:58,000 --> 00:36:00,319 Speaker 1: and she's not real big. I've seen images of her 610 00:36:00,360 --> 00:36:03,160 Speaker 1: and it really makes you think would she have been 611 00:36:03,200 --> 00:36:05,960 Speaker 1: strong enough even though he's a bit older. Would she 612 00:36:06,000 --> 00:36:08,839 Speaker 1: have been strong enough to get the upper hand on 613 00:36:08,920 --> 00:36:12,520 Speaker 1: him even with a baseball beat. People think about about 614 00:36:12,560 --> 00:36:16,360 Speaker 1: the psychiatrist as being very kind of nerdy and bookworms 615 00:36:16,360 --> 00:36:18,279 Speaker 1: and that sort of thing. Understand what they do for 616 00:36:18,320 --> 00:36:22,040 Speaker 1: a living. Psychiatrists have to deal with patients many times 617 00:36:22,040 --> 00:36:24,800 Speaker 1: that are highly agitated. They have to deal with people 618 00:36:24,840 --> 00:36:29,400 Speaker 1: that are very, very aggressive, So he would have had experience, 619 00:36:29,480 --> 00:36:32,880 Speaker 1: certainly trying to subdue somebody. He might not be a 620 00:36:32,920 --> 00:36:36,200 Speaker 1: martial artist per se, but he's been in circumstances throughout 621 00:36:36,239 --> 00:36:41,160 Speaker 1: his career where he would be very defensive and have 622 00:36:41,400 --> 00:36:43,480 Speaker 1: maybe more of an awareness. Say, for instance, if you 623 00:36:43,560 --> 00:36:46,160 Speaker 1: had a surgeon that walked in there to deal with this. 624 00:36:46,160 --> 00:36:48,480 Speaker 1: This guy has dealt with people that are out of control, 625 00:36:48,560 --> 00:36:51,440 Speaker 1: so that's an interesting dynamic. Would she have been strong 626 00:36:51,560 --> 00:36:55,280 Speaker 1: enough in order to overtake him and then absolutely beat 627 00:36:55,400 --> 00:36:59,480 Speaker 1: him to death with a baseball bet? But the question 628 00:36:59,680 --> 00:37:03,640 Speaker 1: is would he have been strong enough to subdue Kelsey 629 00:37:03,719 --> 00:37:08,120 Speaker 1: Turner's boyfriend. Doctor Michard may have been six feet tall 630 00:37:08,120 --> 00:37:12,279 Speaker 1: two hundred and fifty pounds, but Kelsey Turner's boyfriend was 631 00:37:12,640 --> 00:37:17,600 Speaker 1: younger and stronger. Inside the home, they found a door 632 00:37:18,480 --> 00:37:22,919 Speaker 1: had been kicked off the hinges. They found blood in 633 00:37:23,160 --> 00:37:27,360 Speaker 1: a garage. They found towels in the home that matched 634 00:37:28,200 --> 00:37:31,360 Speaker 1: a bloody towel that was found. So you could see 635 00:37:31,400 --> 00:37:36,279 Speaker 1: investigators starting to piece together all of the information of 636 00:37:36,320 --> 00:37:40,360 Speaker 1: this murder puzzle. Yeah, when you have items home, items 637 00:37:40,360 --> 00:37:43,560 Speaker 1: that are found in a vehicle and they're essentially saturated 638 00:37:43,560 --> 00:37:46,600 Speaker 1: in blood, you find similar items at a home, Yeah, 639 00:37:46,640 --> 00:37:49,600 Speaker 1: that's a big tell for us investigatively, because you have 640 00:37:49,680 --> 00:37:52,719 Speaker 1: to ask the question, what is this item doing in 641 00:37:52,760 --> 00:37:55,120 Speaker 1: the vehicle when I have a matching item at the 642 00:37:55,160 --> 00:37:59,280 Speaker 1: scene where obviously some type of terrific struggle has taken place. 643 00:38:00,120 --> 00:38:02,799 Speaker 1: This point when police are investigating this, you know, we've 644 00:38:02,840 --> 00:38:05,719 Speaker 1: talked about blood a lot in this particular case, and 645 00:38:05,880 --> 00:38:08,840 Speaker 1: there was obviously a copious amount of it. One of 646 00:38:08,840 --> 00:38:11,480 Speaker 1: the questions that an investigator has to ask, is this 647 00:38:11,560 --> 00:38:15,000 Speaker 1: the only blood? Is this blood a single source blood 648 00:38:15,520 --> 00:38:17,840 Speaker 1: or do we have commingled blood? Do we have blood 649 00:38:17,840 --> 00:38:21,479 Speaker 1: that might have originated from somebody else. Yeah, I'm sure 650 00:38:21,600 --> 00:38:25,759 Speaker 1: that probably with her help the boyfriend, her current boyfriend, 651 00:38:26,040 --> 00:38:29,200 Speaker 1: could have probably easily subdued this guy. But he may 652 00:38:29,200 --> 00:38:32,000 Speaker 1: have put up a fight. He may have drawn blood 653 00:38:32,040 --> 00:38:35,960 Speaker 1: on either Kelsey or her boyfriend, and you have the 654 00:38:36,000 --> 00:38:38,200 Speaker 1: coming in the blood. You know what, if one of 655 00:38:38,200 --> 00:38:40,360 Speaker 1: them got popped in the nose, they start to bleed, 656 00:38:40,719 --> 00:38:43,440 Speaker 1: and those blood spots that you find a scene at 657 00:38:43,440 --> 00:38:47,120 Speaker 1: the home where this probably took place, or they commingled there, 658 00:38:47,400 --> 00:38:49,399 Speaker 1: or when they're transporting the body out of the house 659 00:38:49,440 --> 00:38:51,640 Speaker 1: and they're placed it in the car, you have blood 660 00:38:51,640 --> 00:38:55,200 Speaker 1: commingled in there. How did blood get into the cabin 661 00:38:55,320 --> 00:38:57,680 Speaker 1: of the car if he's in the trunk of the car, 662 00:38:58,400 --> 00:39:00,560 Speaker 1: was he ever seated in the front seat, or was 663 00:39:00,920 --> 00:39:05,400 Speaker 1: the person that perpetrated this crime just absolutely saturated in 664 00:39:05,480 --> 00:39:08,640 Speaker 1: the victim's blood and they drove them out there. One 665 00:39:08,640 --> 00:39:12,440 Speaker 1: of the other things investigators found was an effort to 666 00:39:12,480 --> 00:39:16,440 Speaker 1: clean up the blood, and as we've talked about many times, 667 00:39:16,800 --> 00:39:20,200 Speaker 1: when there's a murderer, there's always an attempt to clean 668 00:39:20,239 --> 00:39:23,000 Speaker 1: it up. There was cleaning supplies found in the home. 669 00:39:23,160 --> 00:39:26,600 Speaker 1: So now we can talk about all those other wonderful 670 00:39:26,640 --> 00:39:33,480 Speaker 1: words like smears and transfer blood and swipes, and the 671 00:39:33,520 --> 00:39:37,480 Speaker 1: wonderful fact that you can tell the difference in all 672 00:39:37,520 --> 00:39:40,640 Speaker 1: of those things, isn't it's something that those patterns that 673 00:39:40,680 --> 00:39:43,920 Speaker 1: you work so hard to clean up, Not you, Jackie, 674 00:39:43,960 --> 00:39:47,080 Speaker 1: but you in the universal sense that perpetrators used to 675 00:39:47,520 --> 00:39:49,880 Speaker 1: try to clean up with. They're going to leave some 676 00:39:50,000 --> 00:39:54,560 Speaker 1: remnant behind. You think about these transfers of blood. Somebody is, say, 677 00:39:54,600 --> 00:39:57,800 Speaker 1: for instance, saturated in blood, and they take their bare 678 00:39:57,840 --> 00:40:00,520 Speaker 1: hand or maybe even their gloved hand and they place 679 00:40:00,560 --> 00:40:03,959 Speaker 1: it on the floor, and that transfers that pattern left 680 00:40:04,000 --> 00:40:05,640 Speaker 1: behind on the floor of their hand, and they can 681 00:40:05,680 --> 00:40:07,920 Speaker 1: go back and try to clean that up. But if 682 00:40:07,920 --> 00:40:11,960 Speaker 1: you bring in an agent like blue star or luminol, 683 00:40:12,160 --> 00:40:15,600 Speaker 1: you can actually see these patterns. Many times that will 684 00:40:15,760 --> 00:40:18,600 Speaker 1: lumines in the dark for just a brief second. You 685 00:40:18,640 --> 00:40:20,279 Speaker 1: have to snap a photo of it, but you can 686 00:40:20,320 --> 00:40:23,200 Speaker 1: pick up some detail in that environment and kind of 687 00:40:23,280 --> 00:40:26,319 Speaker 1: understand the effort. You know, we talked about betting that 688 00:40:26,400 --> 00:40:29,400 Speaker 1: was found in the car. If you wrapped the body 689 00:40:29,920 --> 00:40:32,960 Speaker 1: or secure the body that's saturated within the betting, and 690 00:40:33,000 --> 00:40:36,080 Speaker 1: you dragged them across this floor, you're going to leave 691 00:40:36,560 --> 00:40:38,880 Speaker 1: this kind of furrow, if you will, that kind of 692 00:40:38,960 --> 00:40:43,439 Speaker 1: leaves this curved pattern or curvilinear pattern, as they say, 693 00:40:43,600 --> 00:40:46,560 Speaker 1: dragging across the floor, you'll see these little swirls on 694 00:40:46,600 --> 00:40:50,120 Speaker 1: the ground, and that gives you again an indication of movement. 695 00:40:50,400 --> 00:40:53,480 Speaker 1: And you know, this case is all about patterns when 696 00:40:53,520 --> 00:40:55,840 Speaker 1: you really think about it. It's it's the patterns that 697 00:40:55,880 --> 00:40:58,960 Speaker 1: you find within the cabin of the car, the patterns 698 00:40:59,000 --> 00:41:01,279 Speaker 1: that you find, the transfer patterns perhaps that you found 699 00:41:01,320 --> 00:41:03,200 Speaker 1: on the outside of the trunk as somebody's trying to 700 00:41:03,280 --> 00:41:05,799 Speaker 1: leverage and body in there. And even one other thing 701 00:41:05,840 --> 00:41:09,279 Speaker 1: that the corner found was that when they were examining 702 00:41:09,400 --> 00:41:14,440 Speaker 1: those lacerations on top of the doctor's head, they actually 703 00:41:14,440 --> 00:41:17,480 Speaker 1: found a pattern that married up with a baseball bat. 704 00:41:17,880 --> 00:41:20,400 Speaker 1: So this whole case kind of comes down to that 705 00:41:20,760 --> 00:41:23,920 Speaker 1: when you think about a baseball bat striking a surface 706 00:41:23,960 --> 00:41:27,080 Speaker 1: and hitting that soft tissue. If our listeners at home, 707 00:41:27,280 --> 00:41:30,120 Speaker 1: I'll give you a great kind of experiment to do. 708 00:41:30,200 --> 00:41:33,400 Speaker 1: If you have access to say, for instance, like a 709 00:41:33,520 --> 00:41:36,160 Speaker 1: silly putty or like Plato or something, and you take 710 00:41:36,200 --> 00:41:38,840 Speaker 1: an object and it can be like a spoon, for instance, 711 00:41:39,080 --> 00:41:41,560 Speaker 1: the bowl, the bottom of the bowl, the stereor of 712 00:41:41,560 --> 00:41:45,479 Speaker 1: the spoon, press it down into this putty, and then 713 00:41:46,280 --> 00:41:48,720 Speaker 1: leave the spoon there and see what happens to the putty. 714 00:41:48,760 --> 00:41:51,600 Speaker 1: It rises up over the edges of that spoon and 715 00:41:51,719 --> 00:41:54,800 Speaker 1: headed towards the bowl. That's the same principle with striking 716 00:41:54,840 --> 00:41:57,280 Speaker 1: someone with kind of a rounded object like a bat. 717 00:41:57,360 --> 00:42:02,000 Speaker 1: Did you know that when you strike that area of 718 00:42:02,040 --> 00:42:04,200 Speaker 1: the skin and you're going to break it and leave 719 00:42:04,200 --> 00:42:07,000 Speaker 1: blood everywhere, But when you strike that area of the skin, 720 00:42:07,560 --> 00:42:10,840 Speaker 1: do you know that that skin actually kind of stretches 721 00:42:10,840 --> 00:42:13,200 Speaker 1: out and wraps itself just for a second, like a 722 00:42:13,280 --> 00:42:16,839 Speaker 1: middlesecond around the edges of the bat, And you can 723 00:42:16,920 --> 00:42:19,120 Speaker 1: sometimes pick up a pattern of it. And you know 724 00:42:19,120 --> 00:42:21,799 Speaker 1: how baseball bat is kind of tapered, starts off with 725 00:42:21,840 --> 00:42:23,360 Speaker 1: a big barrel at the end, and it kind of 726 00:42:23,440 --> 00:42:26,080 Speaker 1: narrows down as it goes down. I've actually seen cases 727 00:42:26,080 --> 00:42:28,880 Speaker 1: where you can actually pick up on that narrowing pattern, 728 00:42:29,200 --> 00:42:32,920 Speaker 1: depended upon where they actually strike an individual with the 729 00:42:32,920 --> 00:42:37,600 Speaker 1: surface of that bat. Ex Playboy Bunny Kelsey Turner has 730 00:42:37,680 --> 00:42:41,839 Speaker 1: taken a plea deal in the murder charges against her 731 00:42:42,200 --> 00:42:45,879 Speaker 1: for the death of doctor Thomas Bouchard after accepting an 732 00:42:45,920 --> 00:42:49,440 Speaker 1: Alfred please, where she doesn't have to admit guilt in 733 00:42:49,480 --> 00:42:53,160 Speaker 1: the slang of doctor Thomas Brussard, but does admit that 734 00:42:53,440 --> 00:42:58,200 Speaker 1: the authorities have enough evidence to charge her. She could 735 00:42:58,280 --> 00:43:05,440 Speaker 1: face up to twenty five years in prison. I'm Joseph 736 00:43:05,440 --> 00:43:08,600 Speaker 1: Scott Morgan and this is body Bags.