1 00:00:03,040 --> 00:00:06,000 Speaker 1: Welcome to stuff Mom Never told you. From House top 2 00:00:06,080 --> 00:00:13,960 Speaker 1: works dot com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. I'm 3 00:00:14,040 --> 00:00:18,840 Speaker 1: Kristen and I'm Caroline. And today's episode was inspired by 4 00:00:19,160 --> 00:00:23,720 Speaker 1: one of the most charming listener letters that we've ever received. 5 00:00:23,880 --> 00:00:27,400 Speaker 1: It was in response to our Librarians episode. Actually, yeah, 6 00:00:27,520 --> 00:00:32,040 Speaker 1: So we got this email from a gentleman named Kingsley. 7 00:00:32,320 --> 00:00:34,240 Speaker 1: And I think part of the reason why I really 8 00:00:34,280 --> 00:00:36,800 Speaker 1: love this letter is that Kingsley is just such a 9 00:00:36,800 --> 00:00:40,519 Speaker 1: wonderful name, and so I just, you know, had Kingsley 10 00:00:40,560 --> 00:00:44,519 Speaker 1: like in my head as I was reading this. So 11 00:00:44,720 --> 00:00:48,560 Speaker 1: Kingsley wrote us to say I enjoyed your librarian topic, 12 00:00:48,600 --> 00:00:51,000 Speaker 1: and I have to ask if you would cover janitorial work. 13 00:00:51,280 --> 00:00:55,120 Speaker 1: It's very underrated on its importance. We keep offices, schools, 14 00:00:55,120 --> 00:00:59,120 Speaker 1: and libraries clean, operating, and healthy, but still no love. Also, 15 00:00:59,280 --> 00:01:01,560 Speaker 1: as a male, I don't understand why cleaning a home 16 00:01:01,720 --> 00:01:05,080 Speaker 1: is woman's work while cleaning a public building is men's work. 17 00:01:05,520 --> 00:01:09,400 Speaker 1: Doesn't make sense. Also, the janitorial stereotypes like being stupid 18 00:01:09,440 --> 00:01:12,840 Speaker 1: and lazy is false. My predominter reads twenty six thousand 19 00:01:12,880 --> 00:01:16,400 Speaker 1: steps on average after every shift. Keep up the good 20 00:01:16,600 --> 00:01:19,560 Speaker 1: stuff in all caps. If you would please excuse me, 21 00:01:19,680 --> 00:01:26,640 Speaker 1: I have some toilets to clean, Kingsley. That's a great letter, Kingsley. 22 00:01:26,840 --> 00:01:30,200 Speaker 1: And and he's absolutely right. There are so many gendered 23 00:01:30,240 --> 00:01:33,920 Speaker 1: aspects to custodial work and janitorial work, as you might expect. 24 00:01:33,959 --> 00:01:36,360 Speaker 1: And on top of gender issues, there's a lot of 25 00:01:36,400 --> 00:01:40,240 Speaker 1: class and racial issues tied up with us as well. Um. 26 00:01:40,280 --> 00:01:43,040 Speaker 1: And it reminded me for a lot of those reasons 27 00:01:43,120 --> 00:01:47,600 Speaker 1: of our women in Trucking episode because a it was 28 00:01:47,640 --> 00:01:50,960 Speaker 1: inspired by a fellow trucker who was driving down the 29 00:01:51,040 --> 00:01:53,600 Speaker 1: road listening to stuff I've never told you is the 30 00:01:53,600 --> 00:01:56,360 Speaker 1: handmashine you're making? Are you driving or you milking a cow? 31 00:01:56,920 --> 00:02:01,440 Speaker 1: I am driving, but very wildly because I've just swerven 32 00:02:01,480 --> 00:02:05,440 Speaker 1: all across the road according to my pantomime of a 33 00:02:05,480 --> 00:02:12,079 Speaker 1: steering wheel. Um. But in terms of trucking and janitorial 34 00:02:12,160 --> 00:02:17,720 Speaker 1: work being really vital to our day to day lives 35 00:02:17,720 --> 00:02:24,040 Speaker 1: and our economy, but also very invisible and devalued. Um. 36 00:02:24,120 --> 00:02:27,480 Speaker 1: So I was really happy that Kingsley emailed us and 37 00:02:27,520 --> 00:02:30,920 Speaker 1: brought us to our attention because there, Yeah, there's a 38 00:02:30,960 --> 00:02:34,200 Speaker 1: lot to talk about. Yeah. And and I've always held 39 00:02:34,560 --> 00:02:37,880 Speaker 1: the opinion that you can tell a lot about people 40 00:02:38,000 --> 00:02:42,359 Speaker 1: by the way that they treat sanitorial and custodial workers. 41 00:02:42,440 --> 00:02:45,120 Speaker 1: I also feel that way about wait staff servers. You 42 00:02:45,120 --> 00:02:46,720 Speaker 1: can tell a lot about a person by the way 43 00:02:46,760 --> 00:02:50,240 Speaker 1: he or she treats your server. Um. And it just 44 00:02:50,280 --> 00:02:55,000 Speaker 1: made me think about our bathroom here at work. We 45 00:02:55,080 --> 00:02:58,280 Speaker 1: share a bathroom with a couple of other businesses in 46 00:02:58,320 --> 00:03:01,680 Speaker 1: our building, and and there some days when you go 47 00:03:01,760 --> 00:03:05,760 Speaker 1: in there and it's almost like destroyed in some of 48 00:03:05,760 --> 00:03:09,920 Speaker 1: the stalls, and and I feel so powerless and helpless 49 00:03:09,919 --> 00:03:11,920 Speaker 1: because I want to yell at someone and shake them 50 00:03:11,960 --> 00:03:14,880 Speaker 1: by the shoulders and say, don't you understand that your 51 00:03:14,919 --> 00:03:17,360 Speaker 1: mother is not here to clean up after you, Like 52 00:03:17,840 --> 00:03:20,680 Speaker 1: there's another person who's a human being who comes in 53 00:03:20,760 --> 00:03:23,600 Speaker 1: at some point and has to clean up this insane 54 00:03:23,639 --> 00:03:26,519 Speaker 1: mess you've made. Yeah, it makes no sense to me 55 00:03:26,720 --> 00:03:31,600 Speaker 1: and listeners to understand the extent of this issue. In 56 00:03:31,680 --> 00:03:37,480 Speaker 1: our office bathroom, It's clear that there is someone in particular, 57 00:03:38,080 --> 00:03:41,680 Speaker 1: or maybe to someone's, because there are two stalls that 58 00:03:42,000 --> 00:03:48,000 Speaker 1: always get it. Someone or one's who go in and 59 00:03:48,480 --> 00:03:53,360 Speaker 1: will sometimes take all of the toilet paper covers, paper 60 00:03:53,400 --> 00:03:58,560 Speaker 1: covers and jam them into the toilet. Yeah, it doesn't 61 00:03:58,560 --> 00:04:01,119 Speaker 1: make it make no sense. And then in the very 62 00:04:01,160 --> 00:04:04,120 Speaker 1: first stall, which always miss me a little bit because 63 00:04:04,120 --> 00:04:06,880 Speaker 1: that's my favorite stall, used to be my go to, 64 00:04:07,920 --> 00:04:14,360 Speaker 1: this person comes in and wipes her boogers on the 65 00:04:14,400 --> 00:04:18,919 Speaker 1: little tray attached to the wall and sometimes down the door. Yeah, 66 00:04:19,000 --> 00:04:21,800 Speaker 1: and and to further drive home how little since this 67 00:04:21,920 --> 00:04:24,680 Speaker 1: makes that tray, you know, presumably you might set your 68 00:04:24,720 --> 00:04:27,640 Speaker 1: purse there, or your wallet or your phone. Um, it 69 00:04:27,760 --> 00:04:31,720 Speaker 1: is literally above the toilet paper. So if you've got 70 00:04:31,720 --> 00:04:34,359 Speaker 1: a stuffy nose you need to blow your nose, you 71 00:04:34,400 --> 00:04:38,040 Speaker 1: could do it very easily. But instead, our bathroom is 72 00:04:38,080 --> 00:04:43,320 Speaker 1: apparently home to a lot of people's weird compulsions. Yeah, 73 00:04:43,440 --> 00:04:46,200 Speaker 1: booger smearing, and whenever the boogers are smeared, there's always 74 00:04:46,480 --> 00:04:50,080 Speaker 1: wadded up toilet paper left on the floor. And whenever 75 00:04:50,320 --> 00:04:53,200 Speaker 1: we run into other women from other offices on our floor, 76 00:04:53,279 --> 00:04:56,560 Speaker 1: one of which listeners is very well known, but it 77 00:04:56,600 --> 00:05:00,880 Speaker 1: shall remain nameless. Uh. I is trying to like kind 78 00:05:00,880 --> 00:05:03,839 Speaker 1: of stare them down and be like, so you leaving 79 00:05:03,880 --> 00:05:06,880 Speaker 1: a message you go in that first all, I'm wiping 80 00:05:06,920 --> 00:05:10,640 Speaker 1: your nose right now, I know, uh what our bathroom 81 00:05:10,720 --> 00:05:15,560 Speaker 1: could use potentially is one of those uh bathroom attendance 82 00:05:15,800 --> 00:05:18,599 Speaker 1: who hands out paper towels. No, we're going to talk 83 00:05:18,640 --> 00:05:23,200 Speaker 1: about that though. Bathroomintend has made people so uncomfortable. Myself, 84 00:05:23,279 --> 00:05:26,120 Speaker 1: well yeah, I also get very uncomfortable around bathroom attendance. 85 00:05:26,240 --> 00:05:28,919 Speaker 1: But um, I mean maybe we need one though, because 86 00:05:28,960 --> 00:05:32,919 Speaker 1: it seems like perhaps they might put the kabbash on 87 00:05:33,640 --> 00:05:36,400 Speaker 1: on some bad bathroom activities. Yeah. I don't know. I 88 00:05:36,400 --> 00:05:38,240 Speaker 1: would just they would just end up having to clean 89 00:05:38,320 --> 00:05:41,040 Speaker 1: up that woman's boogers. Well, I hope is that someone's 90 00:05:41,040 --> 00:05:44,120 Speaker 1: eternal presence there would discourage that sort of thag here. 91 00:05:45,040 --> 00:05:47,120 Speaker 1: Oh man, someone has to be hired as a bathroom 92 00:05:47,120 --> 00:05:49,560 Speaker 1: attendance because one woman doesn't know how to act like 93 00:05:49,600 --> 00:05:53,200 Speaker 1: a decent human yeah, or two what a bummer? Yeah? Anyway, 94 00:05:53,279 --> 00:05:55,400 Speaker 1: I got into a whole conversation on the way to 95 00:05:55,440 --> 00:05:57,640 Speaker 1: the airport at one time with my lift driver about 96 00:05:57,720 --> 00:06:01,880 Speaker 1: this specific incident, and you was as mystified as I was. Dude, 97 00:06:01,920 --> 00:06:04,880 Speaker 1: I printed out signs for a while because I don't 98 00:06:04,880 --> 00:06:07,080 Speaker 1: know who it is. I would I would love to 99 00:06:07,200 --> 00:06:10,080 Speaker 1: directly talk to someone who is doing it and shake 100 00:06:10,120 --> 00:06:13,880 Speaker 1: that person physically and not be arrested for assault. Um. 101 00:06:13,920 --> 00:06:17,200 Speaker 1: But did these signs sake, stop wiping your snot on 102 00:06:17,240 --> 00:06:20,160 Speaker 1: the wall. And it didn't work. Yeah, it didn't work 103 00:06:20,240 --> 00:06:23,120 Speaker 1: because God bless the janitors, they took the signs down 104 00:06:23,839 --> 00:06:26,920 Speaker 1: because you can't put signs up in the bathroom. So 105 00:06:27,120 --> 00:06:31,760 Speaker 1: I'm just as mad. Yeah, I mean, and and listen, lady, 106 00:06:32,040 --> 00:06:34,839 Speaker 1: if you're listening to this episode, stop it, stop it, 107 00:06:34,920 --> 00:06:38,640 Speaker 1: get hold of yourself. To me, it's just it's disrespectful 108 00:06:39,640 --> 00:06:42,599 Speaker 1: on so many levels. It just doesn't again, like it 109 00:06:42,760 --> 00:06:46,800 Speaker 1: does not compute in my brain. But enough about uh, 110 00:06:47,640 --> 00:06:53,760 Speaker 1: grown ups who act like babies. Let's talk about janitorial 111 00:06:53,920 --> 00:06:58,200 Speaker 1: and custodial work and what's involved and just sort of 112 00:06:58,279 --> 00:07:03,840 Speaker 1: some basic stats of the building cleaning industry. Yeah. So 113 00:07:04,200 --> 00:07:07,880 Speaker 1: generally janitors and custodians that you see at your buildings 114 00:07:07,920 --> 00:07:12,560 Speaker 1: or your schools, they're in charge of sweeping and dusting, uh, mopping, 115 00:07:12,600 --> 00:07:16,040 Speaker 1: and vacuuming, maybe even carpet shampooing, which to me just 116 00:07:16,080 --> 00:07:20,960 Speaker 1: sounds and I'm serious, so satisfying. I would love to 117 00:07:21,000 --> 00:07:26,560 Speaker 1: shampoo a carpet come to my house. Floor waxing, window cleaning, 118 00:07:26,720 --> 00:07:30,640 Speaker 1: bathroom up keep. Uh. And it's typically contracted out by 119 00:07:30,640 --> 00:07:34,320 Speaker 1: cleaning companies and the contracts tend to go to the 120 00:07:34,360 --> 00:07:38,679 Speaker 1: lowest bitter, so you can see where this is going. Uh, 121 00:07:38,760 --> 00:07:42,400 Speaker 1: when you have a competitive advantage as one of these companies, 122 00:07:42,840 --> 00:07:45,920 Speaker 1: it means that you end up paying your workers less 123 00:07:46,560 --> 00:07:49,720 Speaker 1: and there are no benefits to speak of. You typically 124 00:07:49,760 --> 00:07:53,600 Speaker 1: don't get paid for overtime. And as a result of this, 125 00:07:53,800 --> 00:07:58,840 Speaker 1: you are seeing increasingly UM the custodial workforce being composed 126 00:07:58,880 --> 00:08:04,000 Speaker 1: of more and more in grants because these contracted cleaning 127 00:08:04,040 --> 00:08:08,120 Speaker 1: companies will take advantage of the fact that immigrants are 128 00:08:08,160 --> 00:08:13,480 Speaker 1: often undocumented or undocumented are often the lowest paid UM people, 129 00:08:13,960 --> 00:08:16,800 Speaker 1: and so they're like, oh, yeah, come come work here 130 00:08:17,280 --> 00:08:22,800 Speaker 1: for absolutely nothing. Because the median income for janitorial workers 131 00:08:22,800 --> 00:08:26,520 Speaker 1: in the US is just over twenty three thousand dollars 132 00:08:26,560 --> 00:08:30,680 Speaker 1: a year, or around eleven dollars an hour. But it's 133 00:08:30,800 --> 00:08:32,720 Speaker 1: very common, I mean, there are a lot of people 134 00:08:33,160 --> 00:08:36,319 Speaker 1: who make their living off this work as often. It 135 00:08:36,440 --> 00:08:39,559 Speaker 1: employed two point three million Americans, and if we look 136 00:08:39,600 --> 00:08:42,760 Speaker 1: at the ethnic breakdown as of out of all janitors 137 00:08:42,800 --> 00:08:47,240 Speaker 1: and building cleaners, seventy four percent were white, just over 138 00:08:47,360 --> 00:08:51,240 Speaker 1: thirty percent were Hispanic or Latino eighteen, just over eighteen 139 00:08:51,280 --> 00:08:56,280 Speaker 1: percent are black, and nearly four percent are Asian, and 140 00:08:57,040 --> 00:09:02,400 Speaker 1: the majority of janitors in America UH have just a 141 00:09:02,480 --> 00:09:05,360 Speaker 1: high school education. And that's one of the reasons why 142 00:09:05,400 --> 00:09:08,280 Speaker 1: this work can be really appealing for people, because you 143 00:09:08,320 --> 00:09:12,040 Speaker 1: don't need any formal training, you don't need any higher education. 144 00:09:12,240 --> 00:09:15,200 Speaker 1: You can just step in and start doing it. And 145 00:09:15,840 --> 00:09:20,520 Speaker 1: in terms of how we undervalue cleaning services, hey, let's 146 00:09:20,520 --> 00:09:22,600 Speaker 1: consider the fact that if you work in an office 147 00:09:22,600 --> 00:09:26,240 Speaker 1: building like we do, you don't even see them. You're 148 00:09:26,280 --> 00:09:29,199 Speaker 1: not really supposed to see the janitorial staff. They tend 149 00:09:29,280 --> 00:09:31,560 Speaker 1: to come in later in the afternoon or even in 150 00:09:31,559 --> 00:09:35,440 Speaker 1: the evening, once everybody has gone home, and while they're 151 00:09:35,480 --> 00:09:38,480 Speaker 1: doing all of that invisible work, which is reminding me 152 00:09:38,720 --> 00:09:42,200 Speaker 1: of you know, Cinderella's the little mice, you know, who 153 00:09:42,240 --> 00:09:46,079 Speaker 1: are like making everything so perfect and sewing her dress. 154 00:09:47,120 --> 00:09:53,880 Speaker 1: According to the Worldwide Cleaning Industry Association, nine of people 155 00:09:53,880 --> 00:09:57,200 Speaker 1: say that they'd avoid a business if they encountered dirty restrooms. 156 00:09:57,240 --> 00:10:00,480 Speaker 1: So clearly this work is important. Yeah, I mean, you're 157 00:10:00,520 --> 00:10:04,839 Speaker 1: helping retain customers and also maintaining employee satisfaction. I mean, 158 00:10:04,880 --> 00:10:08,160 Speaker 1: listen to how much this woman's snot habits have overtaken 159 00:10:08,200 --> 00:10:12,400 Speaker 1: our life and my lift conversation. I know. I've talked 160 00:10:12,400 --> 00:10:16,000 Speaker 1: to my boyfriend about it. If he doesn't understand it either. Um. Yeah. 161 00:10:16,000 --> 00:10:19,560 Speaker 1: According to the survey of retail, customers say that a 162 00:10:19,720 --> 00:10:23,000 Speaker 1: store's environment occur encourages them to buy more. I mean, like, 163 00:10:23,360 --> 00:10:28,120 Speaker 1: I literally tweeted at this shopping development here in Atlanta 164 00:10:28,200 --> 00:10:33,040 Speaker 1: one time because the H and M was destroyed. Um there, yes, 165 00:10:33,080 --> 00:10:35,320 Speaker 1: and not only their clothes everywhere, because people just go 166 00:10:35,400 --> 00:10:37,760 Speaker 1: in and like this doesn't fit and they just I 167 00:10:37,800 --> 00:10:40,320 Speaker 1: don't know, are they just throwing things? Are they Are 168 00:10:40,320 --> 00:10:42,200 Speaker 1: they so happy to be at an H and M 169 00:10:42,240 --> 00:10:45,480 Speaker 1: that they pick up a pile of sweaters and just broh, 170 00:10:45,520 --> 00:10:48,000 Speaker 1: They'm like confetti. I don't know what's going on. But 171 00:10:48,080 --> 00:10:50,240 Speaker 1: there was also like trash on the floor and stuff 172 00:10:50,240 --> 00:10:54,400 Speaker 1: like that. People are insane. Um, so so yes, I can. 173 00:10:54,520 --> 00:10:57,440 Speaker 1: I can agree with the statement that the environment of 174 00:10:57,520 --> 00:11:02,040 Speaker 1: a retail estab shimant is important. I have an H 175 00:11:02,080 --> 00:11:05,240 Speaker 1: and M story to now share with you. First of all, 176 00:11:05,280 --> 00:11:07,360 Speaker 1: I think that it gets trashed because the clothes are 177 00:11:07,360 --> 00:11:10,240 Speaker 1: so cheap. Yeah, you know, people are like, oh whatever, 178 00:11:10,240 --> 00:11:14,480 Speaker 1: it's a dollar. Um. But the most horrifying H and 179 00:11:14,640 --> 00:11:18,319 Speaker 1: M horrifying slash entertaining H n M. That I've ever 180 00:11:18,360 --> 00:11:20,960 Speaker 1: been in was a couple of months ago when I 181 00:11:21,000 --> 00:11:24,120 Speaker 1: went to New Orleans for a wedding and just left 182 00:11:24,160 --> 00:11:27,800 Speaker 1: everything at home. I'm a horrible packer, and so we 183 00:11:27,800 --> 00:11:30,240 Speaker 1: were in the French Quarter and I needed to just 184 00:11:30,280 --> 00:11:32,960 Speaker 1: pick up a couple of things cough cough, underwear, and 185 00:11:33,040 --> 00:11:37,480 Speaker 1: so I went into the H and M. And as 186 00:11:37,480 --> 00:11:43,400 Speaker 1: you can imagine, like French Quarter, you can drink anywhere. Like, 187 00:11:43,840 --> 00:11:47,800 Speaker 1: there were clothes for days. The line was out the door. 188 00:11:48,240 --> 00:11:51,920 Speaker 1: There were just you know, to go cups with Dakri's 189 00:11:52,080 --> 00:11:56,679 Speaker 1: scattered around. Um. I actually got stopped after I left 190 00:11:56,720 --> 00:12:00,000 Speaker 1: the store because they forgot to take a security tag off, 191 00:12:00,000 --> 00:12:03,200 Speaker 1: so I got chased by by the security guard. You 192 00:12:03,280 --> 00:12:05,280 Speaker 1: ended up being very nice and we just laughed about 193 00:12:05,320 --> 00:12:07,720 Speaker 1: it because I'm sure if you work there, all you 194 00:12:07,760 --> 00:12:11,360 Speaker 1: can do is laugh, oh yeah, because otherwise you will weep, 195 00:12:11,760 --> 00:12:14,600 Speaker 1: yeah in one of the dressing rooms. You'll just lock 196 00:12:14,640 --> 00:12:17,360 Speaker 1: yourself in there. Yeah. And I get the impression like 197 00:12:17,440 --> 00:12:20,880 Speaker 1: from you know, my my brief interactions, you know, checking 198 00:12:20,880 --> 00:12:24,800 Speaker 1: out and seeing the uh the clerks working there, and 199 00:12:24,800 --> 00:12:26,520 Speaker 1: they were just like you kind of just have to 200 00:12:26,520 --> 00:12:29,679 Speaker 1: be above it, you know, Yeah, it's a it's a 201 00:12:29,800 --> 00:12:34,000 Speaker 1: nice exercise and in rising above taking a deep breath. 202 00:12:34,600 --> 00:12:38,240 Speaker 1: And another setting out there where people's comfort level is 203 00:12:38,400 --> 00:12:41,880 Speaker 1: influenced by their environment is fast food restaurants. I have 204 00:12:42,000 --> 00:12:46,439 Speaker 1: been in many a fast food restaurant that is horrifying, 205 00:12:46,679 --> 00:12:51,840 Speaker 1: like the floor is gross, and so according to the survey, again, 206 00:12:51,960 --> 00:12:55,800 Speaker 1: more than six of respondents said that they visit clean 207 00:12:56,000 --> 00:12:59,920 Speaker 1: fast food restaurants more often. All of this, too, ill 208 00:13:00,000 --> 00:13:04,360 Speaker 1: illustrate how important and yet invisible. The work of a 209 00:13:04,440 --> 00:13:09,199 Speaker 1: janitorial staff is invisible because when something is clean, you 210 00:13:09,240 --> 00:13:11,480 Speaker 1: don't think about it. Yeah, we take it for granted 211 00:13:11,840 --> 00:13:15,000 Speaker 1: so often. Yeah, but when something's dirty and there's stuff 212 00:13:15,000 --> 00:13:17,120 Speaker 1: all over the floor or whatever, or all over the 213 00:13:17,120 --> 00:13:20,839 Speaker 1: toilets or wherever, you do notice that because it can 214 00:13:20,920 --> 00:13:25,280 Speaker 1: be horrifying. So I have a feeling because this work 215 00:13:25,440 --> 00:13:29,840 Speaker 1: is so typically devalued and considered, you know, lower working class, 216 00:13:29,960 --> 00:13:33,920 Speaker 1: very blue collar. There isn't a formal history of custodial 217 00:13:34,000 --> 00:13:37,760 Speaker 1: services at least that we could dig up, but there 218 00:13:37,920 --> 00:13:43,000 Speaker 1: is plenty to unpack in terms of gender, class, and race, 219 00:13:43,040 --> 00:13:45,600 Speaker 1: and you kind of have to dig around for it 220 00:13:46,200 --> 00:13:48,800 Speaker 1: because I feel like this population even though there are 221 00:13:48,840 --> 00:13:52,280 Speaker 1: so many of them, millions is so invisible that they 222 00:13:52,320 --> 00:13:58,439 Speaker 1: often even just get overlooked in media coverage and within academia, 223 00:13:58,520 --> 00:14:01,960 Speaker 1: aside from sociology, which we're gonna get to in a second. Well, 224 00:14:01,960 --> 00:14:05,040 Speaker 1: that's right. Um, So, if you're looking at the gender breakdown, 225 00:14:05,200 --> 00:14:10,560 Speaker 1: janitors and building cleaners, not including domestic cleaners, are about 226 00:14:11,760 --> 00:14:15,160 Speaker 1: mail on a quarter female, and within that most of 227 00:14:15,200 --> 00:14:18,440 Speaker 1: those women are women of color. Yeah, and uh, just 228 00:14:18,480 --> 00:14:23,440 Speaker 1: a quick note since you mentioned that that's excluding domestic cleaners. Uh, 229 00:14:23,800 --> 00:14:30,640 Speaker 1: we are focusing just on the public building cleaning, like 230 00:14:30,840 --> 00:14:34,000 Speaker 1: Kingsley was saying. Where Uh, and the stats back them up. 231 00:14:34,000 --> 00:14:37,400 Speaker 1: You know, three quarters of those employees are male, whereas 232 00:14:37,440 --> 00:14:41,840 Speaker 1: if you look at made services domestic cleaning services, that's 233 00:14:41,840 --> 00:14:46,320 Speaker 1: going to be a majority female. But one one place 234 00:14:46,520 --> 00:14:51,280 Speaker 1: to where janitorial services does come up very commonly is 235 00:14:51,320 --> 00:14:56,240 Speaker 1: in conversations around the gender wage gap, because even within 236 00:14:57,080 --> 00:15:04,240 Speaker 1: this typically low paid um sector, there is a noticeable 237 00:15:04,240 --> 00:15:07,040 Speaker 1: gender wage gap. In fact, it is one of the 238 00:15:07,080 --> 00:15:11,680 Speaker 1: top ten widest gender wage gaps out there. Yeah. I 239 00:15:11,760 --> 00:15:14,200 Speaker 1: never knew that, and I'm pretty sure it was again 240 00:15:14,240 --> 00:15:19,160 Speaker 1: in our Trekking episode Kristen, where we mentioned the fact 241 00:15:19,280 --> 00:15:23,760 Speaker 1: that when we talk about harassment on the job, when 242 00:15:23,800 --> 00:15:26,480 Speaker 1: we talk about women earning less money, we tend to 243 00:15:26,520 --> 00:15:29,840 Speaker 1: focus on more white collar jobs. We tend to see 244 00:15:29,880 --> 00:15:32,640 Speaker 1: trend pieces about like women in tech or women in 245 00:15:32,720 --> 00:15:37,840 Speaker 1: stem uh not being paid as much um. Just as 246 00:15:37,920 --> 00:15:40,280 Speaker 1: invisible as these workers can be in our day to 247 00:15:40,320 --> 00:15:44,040 Speaker 1: day lives, their struggles with these issues tend to be 248 00:15:44,080 --> 00:15:46,720 Speaker 1: invisible to when it comes to the media covering them well. 249 00:15:46,760 --> 00:15:50,800 Speaker 1: And this fits into the broader pattern of the more 250 00:15:50,840 --> 00:15:53,960 Speaker 1: masculinized the profession is, the more male dominated it is, 251 00:15:54,600 --> 00:15:57,320 Speaker 1: the wider your gender gap is going to be. And 252 00:15:57,360 --> 00:16:00,400 Speaker 1: this fits into a broader pattern that you see with 253 00:16:00,440 --> 00:16:04,480 Speaker 1: the gender wage gap, where the more male dominated a 254 00:16:04,720 --> 00:16:08,120 Speaker 1: job is that the wider that gap is going to be. 255 00:16:08,400 --> 00:16:13,280 Speaker 1: And so as of now, janders who are usually men, 256 00:16:13,680 --> 00:16:18,600 Speaker 1: earned twenty two more than maids and house cleaners who 257 00:16:18,600 --> 00:16:22,280 Speaker 1: are usually women because of the gendering of this work, 258 00:16:22,320 --> 00:16:25,960 Speaker 1: which again Kingsley talking all about that being like what 259 00:16:25,960 --> 00:16:28,880 Speaker 1: what what's up with this? You know, janitors work in 260 00:16:29,040 --> 00:16:34,720 Speaker 1: public and indoor outdoor settings, whereas you know your feminine 261 00:16:35,360 --> 00:16:42,000 Speaker 1: maids work is inside in that domestic sphere, your housekeeping. Yeah, 262 00:16:42,040 --> 00:16:46,320 Speaker 1: and I mean even when you are just looking at janitors, 263 00:16:46,440 --> 00:16:51,000 Speaker 1: not looking at house cleaners versus public building cleaners. That 264 00:16:51,080 --> 00:16:55,480 Speaker 1: wage gap definitely exists because typically the work is divided 265 00:16:55,560 --> 00:17:00,000 Speaker 1: between heavy work and light work. And as you can imagine, 266 00:17:00,040 --> 00:17:04,199 Speaker 1: and the heavy work is things like UH polishing and 267 00:17:04,240 --> 00:17:07,919 Speaker 1: waxing the floor with those big waxing machines. It's taking 268 00:17:07,920 --> 00:17:11,000 Speaker 1: out heavy bags of trash, whereas the light work is 269 00:17:11,040 --> 00:17:14,840 Speaker 1: things like dusting, vacuuming. I mean, I saw this um 270 00:17:14,880 --> 00:17:18,080 Speaker 1: in my last job. I was frequently at work late 271 00:17:18,200 --> 00:17:22,359 Speaker 1: enough to where the janitorial staff came in and UH 272 00:17:22,520 --> 00:17:26,840 Speaker 1: had the nicest lady every night who she would, you know, 273 00:17:27,440 --> 00:17:30,840 Speaker 1: vacuum and dust and take out our small bags of trash. 274 00:17:31,080 --> 00:17:32,680 Speaker 1: And when I went out to my car, I would 275 00:17:32,680 --> 00:17:36,879 Speaker 1: see her male colleagues heaving the giant bags of trash 276 00:17:36,920 --> 00:17:41,080 Speaker 1: all collected into the dumpster. And this is coming from 277 00:17:41,119 --> 00:17:44,760 Speaker 1: a paper that came out in Gender Work and Organization 278 00:17:45,160 --> 00:17:50,080 Speaker 1: called Dirty Work, Gender Race and the Union and Industrial Cleaning, 279 00:17:50,520 --> 00:17:56,040 Speaker 1: and it interviewed a number of custodial workers in the 280 00:17:56,080 --> 00:18:03,440 Speaker 1: primary UH like service industry union and they found that, yeah, 281 00:18:03,560 --> 00:18:06,560 Speaker 1: like anecdotally, a lot of the women talk about how 282 00:18:06,840 --> 00:18:09,880 Speaker 1: you know, there is this binary gendered division where they 283 00:18:09,880 --> 00:18:13,439 Speaker 1: stick with that light duty work. And the study authors 284 00:18:13,600 --> 00:18:16,480 Speaker 1: right that the denigration of this work as being of 285 00:18:16,560 --> 00:18:20,760 Speaker 1: low value is experienced doubly by women whose work is 286 00:18:20,800 --> 00:18:24,040 Speaker 1: cleaners is more seriously undervalued than that of men. So 287 00:18:24,160 --> 00:18:28,160 Speaker 1: to translate what they're saying is custodial work is already 288 00:18:28,160 --> 00:18:33,200 Speaker 1: considered dirty work in quotes, but then you have that 289 00:18:33,960 --> 00:18:38,480 Speaker 1: even more diminished status for the light duty work because 290 00:18:38,920 --> 00:18:42,760 Speaker 1: you know, anything that gets close to domestic sphere duties 291 00:18:42,960 --> 00:18:45,840 Speaker 1: like a dusting and a vacuuming, the more devalue that 292 00:18:45,880 --> 00:18:49,000 Speaker 1: you're going to get. And I feel like, now, um, 293 00:18:49,359 --> 00:18:52,200 Speaker 1: you could play a devalued and invisible drinking game, because 294 00:18:52,240 --> 00:18:56,200 Speaker 1: we've said those words so much in this drinking goes 295 00:18:56,240 --> 00:18:59,600 Speaker 1: along with having to laugh. And that should also prepare 296 00:18:59,600 --> 00:19:03,040 Speaker 1: you for the fact that there's massive problems with sexual 297 00:19:03,040 --> 00:19:06,680 Speaker 1: harassment and sexual assault on the job. Again harkening back 298 00:19:06,720 --> 00:19:11,439 Speaker 1: to our tracking episode, where when women are doing this 299 00:19:11,520 --> 00:19:16,680 Speaker 1: kind of work, it's often solitary, late at night, they 300 00:19:16,680 --> 00:19:21,520 Speaker 1: are alone, and there have been so many reports of 301 00:19:21,680 --> 00:19:24,280 Speaker 1: terrible things happening, but so many of these women don't 302 00:19:24,480 --> 00:19:27,480 Speaker 1: feel that they have any sort of legal recourse to 303 00:19:27,680 --> 00:19:31,840 Speaker 1: tackle the problem well, and especially if you're an undocumented worker. 304 00:19:32,480 --> 00:19:36,600 Speaker 1: PBS Frontline produced the whole series on this called Rape 305 00:19:36,600 --> 00:19:39,080 Speaker 1: on the Night Shift, and they talked about this case 306 00:19:39,080 --> 00:19:42,679 Speaker 1: where twenty one women sued A b M, which is 307 00:19:42,680 --> 00:19:48,840 Speaker 1: the nation's largest janitorial employer with about sixty employees. They 308 00:19:48,880 --> 00:19:51,399 Speaker 1: suit them for failing to protect them from harassment and 309 00:19:51,440 --> 00:19:55,720 Speaker 1: assault perpetrated by fourteen male employees, and A b M 310 00:19:55,800 --> 00:20:00,000 Speaker 1: ended up settling in for five point eight million dollars, 311 00:20:00,320 --> 00:20:04,560 Speaker 1: not acknowledging as part of their deal that anything wrong, 312 00:20:04,640 --> 00:20:07,960 Speaker 1: like anything constituting sexual harassment, had happened. And they talked 313 00:20:07,960 --> 00:20:11,280 Speaker 1: to one woman who you know, she she got this money, 314 00:20:11,760 --> 00:20:13,760 Speaker 1: she didn't change anything about her life. It's not like 315 00:20:13,800 --> 00:20:16,199 Speaker 1: she used it to move into some big house or anything. 316 00:20:16,240 --> 00:20:17,679 Speaker 1: And she said, you know, I really have a lot 317 00:20:17,760 --> 00:20:20,760 Speaker 1: of trouble spending this money because it feels dirty like 318 00:20:20,880 --> 00:20:24,080 Speaker 1: I got it because I was raped, you know, not 319 00:20:24,200 --> 00:20:27,480 Speaker 1: because I like earned it through working somehow. Well, and 320 00:20:27,560 --> 00:20:30,399 Speaker 1: we have the same issue in our trucking episode where 321 00:20:31,040 --> 00:20:34,040 Speaker 1: the exact name escapes me now, but there is one 322 00:20:34,200 --> 00:20:40,359 Speaker 1: infamous company, trucking training company, where you have a series 323 00:20:40,640 --> 00:20:44,000 Speaker 1: of sexual harassment and sexual assault cases that just keep 324 00:20:44,000 --> 00:20:46,480 Speaker 1: happening over and over and over again, but they just 325 00:20:46,520 --> 00:20:49,760 Speaker 1: kind of get brushed aside. And in this case, a 326 00:20:49,880 --> 00:20:54,440 Speaker 1: b M. PBS Reports is one of just fifteen US 327 00:20:54,560 --> 00:20:59,400 Speaker 1: companies sued at least three times by the federal government 328 00:20:59,600 --> 00:21:03,600 Speaker 1: for ailing to protect workers from sexual harassment and and 329 00:21:03,680 --> 00:21:07,800 Speaker 1: their response was basically like, oh, you know, I mean, 330 00:21:08,240 --> 00:21:10,439 Speaker 1: what do you want us to do? Like should we 331 00:21:10,800 --> 00:21:15,119 Speaker 1: post a national guard at the door where these women 332 00:21:15,160 --> 00:21:18,639 Speaker 1: are working? Like we have a labor force that's literally 333 00:21:18,640 --> 00:21:21,080 Speaker 1: spread across the entire country. How are we going to 334 00:21:21,200 --> 00:21:26,840 Speaker 1: monitor that? And of course that's all rhetorical because they're 335 00:21:26,880 --> 00:21:30,640 Speaker 1: they're literally so many options to protect these workers, anything 336 00:21:30,760 --> 00:21:34,720 Speaker 1: from you know, some type of alarm device that you 337 00:21:34,720 --> 00:21:37,200 Speaker 1: can set off that goes back to some central office, 338 00:21:37,560 --> 00:21:42,600 Speaker 1: or just um, maybe just better communication methods between workers 339 00:21:42,600 --> 00:21:44,800 Speaker 1: so that they can alert each other to what's happening. 340 00:21:45,200 --> 00:21:49,560 Speaker 1: Maybe don't hire people who have been convicted of rape, 341 00:21:49,880 --> 00:21:52,800 Speaker 1: as was the case with one of those fourteen male 342 00:21:52,840 --> 00:21:57,960 Speaker 1: employees who was involved in that lawsuit. Yeah, and basically, yeah, 343 00:21:58,000 --> 00:22:02,960 Speaker 1: they were saying that the the employees backgrounds weren't not 344 00:22:03,080 --> 00:22:06,600 Speaker 1: that they weren't checked, but they just weren't chocked up 345 00:22:06,600 --> 00:22:09,199 Speaker 1: as something important enough to take note of. So in 346 00:22:09,280 --> 00:22:14,480 Speaker 1: terms of gender, then we've established that this work is masculinized. 347 00:22:15,560 --> 00:22:18,520 Speaker 1: But about a quarter of the workforce are women who 348 00:22:18,640 --> 00:22:24,560 Speaker 1: are extremely vulnerable to even lower pay and obviously um 349 00:22:24,640 --> 00:22:28,600 Speaker 1: dangerous sometimes working conditions. I mean in that PBS frontline piece, 350 00:22:29,119 --> 00:22:31,159 Speaker 1: the women were talking about how really the only defense 351 00:22:31,160 --> 00:22:36,280 Speaker 1: they might have is wielding their broomstick or or their mop. Um. So, 352 00:22:36,400 --> 00:22:41,200 Speaker 1: so that's the gender situation happening. If we look at class, 353 00:22:41,240 --> 00:22:45,280 Speaker 1: just generally speaking, genitorial work is about as working class 354 00:22:45,280 --> 00:22:48,720 Speaker 1: as you can get because you know, it's usually conducted 355 00:22:48,760 --> 00:22:53,480 Speaker 1: again like after the nine to five rs go home. Um. 356 00:22:53,560 --> 00:22:58,800 Speaker 1: And in a way it's tabooed regardless of gender. Yeah, 357 00:22:58,920 --> 00:23:04,119 Speaker 1: because of that quote unquote dirty work. Rather than viewing 358 00:23:04,160 --> 00:23:08,480 Speaker 1: it as like these people are literally keeping your environment 359 00:23:08,600 --> 00:23:12,639 Speaker 1: clean and in some cases free from disease, it tends 360 00:23:12,640 --> 00:23:15,879 Speaker 1: to be viewed as now you're getting your hands dirty, 361 00:23:15,960 --> 00:23:19,280 Speaker 1: that's gross. Yeah. And also presuming that there is no 362 00:23:19,440 --> 00:23:22,640 Speaker 1: skill required, you know that it's just you know, anybody 363 00:23:22,640 --> 00:23:27,439 Speaker 1: can do that. Um. And one thing that emerged in 364 00:23:27,640 --> 00:23:31,760 Speaker 1: that Dirty Work paper, which we should note was based 365 00:23:31,840 --> 00:23:36,159 Speaker 1: on the Toronto chapter of the Service Employees International Union, 366 00:23:36,160 --> 00:23:39,080 Speaker 1: which is of the massive labor union that represents a 367 00:23:39,119 --> 00:23:43,360 Speaker 1: bunch of service occupations, including custodians, and is the primary 368 00:23:43,440 --> 00:23:48,760 Speaker 1: organization for custodial organizing and rights UM. In those interviews 369 00:23:49,760 --> 00:23:53,680 Speaker 1: with some of those union members, the researchers found that 370 00:23:54,200 --> 00:23:58,000 Speaker 1: even racism among workers who have a very diverse workforce, 371 00:23:58,080 --> 00:24:04,080 Speaker 1: but racism can emerge between them and can impede organizing. 372 00:24:04,480 --> 00:24:10,399 Speaker 1: But a common theme in aggregate is that they tend 373 00:24:10,440 --> 00:24:14,240 Speaker 1: to resist the notion of their jobs as dirty, unskilled, 374 00:24:14,840 --> 00:24:19,880 Speaker 1: invisible and undignified UM and rather, you know, try to 375 00:24:19,920 --> 00:24:22,919 Speaker 1: sort of elevate it and like take pride in the 376 00:24:22,960 --> 00:24:25,880 Speaker 1: work that they are doing, even if nobody else will. Well. Yeah, 377 00:24:25,880 --> 00:24:28,440 Speaker 1: and that's kind of where the union does step in, right. 378 00:24:28,560 --> 00:24:32,399 Speaker 1: It's not only organizing people and getting people to advocate 379 00:24:32,560 --> 00:24:35,680 Speaker 1: for better working conditions, but it also has a role 380 00:24:35,800 --> 00:24:40,119 Speaker 1: in helping people feel and take more pride in their work. 381 00:24:41,280 --> 00:24:42,880 Speaker 1: And I mean and that that can be a hard 382 00:24:42,880 --> 00:24:46,440 Speaker 1: thing to do sometimes when you're up against those outside 383 00:24:47,480 --> 00:24:51,199 Speaker 1: dehumanizing and mothering forces. There were some people who talked 384 00:24:51,280 --> 00:24:56,520 Speaker 1: about um, you know, my my employer or my manager 385 00:24:56,760 --> 00:25:02,119 Speaker 1: on my shift, you know, is race a against me? UM, 386 00:25:02,280 --> 00:25:06,560 Speaker 1: or they treat me very poorly because they themselves used 387 00:25:06,560 --> 00:25:10,080 Speaker 1: to be a janitor or a custodian and they escaped 388 00:25:10,160 --> 00:25:12,760 Speaker 1: this work, or they you know, they they got a 389 00:25:12,800 --> 00:25:15,680 Speaker 1: promotion or something and they just feel like they can 390 00:25:15,720 --> 00:25:18,679 Speaker 1: treat me like a dog. And because of all of 391 00:25:18,720 --> 00:25:23,919 Speaker 1: those class issues within and without the sector, sociologists have 392 00:25:24,000 --> 00:25:27,200 Speaker 1: paid a lot of attention to what's going on and 393 00:25:27,240 --> 00:25:34,640 Speaker 1: how people interact with custodial staff to say, they're often ignored. Um. 394 00:25:34,680 --> 00:25:37,280 Speaker 1: You know a lot of times people will simply walk 395 00:25:37,400 --> 00:25:40,760 Speaker 1: by a custodian as if he or she just isn't 396 00:25:40,800 --> 00:25:44,879 Speaker 1: even there, like literally invisible. And it's really started in 397 00:25:44,880 --> 00:25:49,840 Speaker 1: the nineteen eighties with Chicago sociologist Edward Hughes, who studied 398 00:25:49,880 --> 00:25:55,600 Speaker 1: what's called the occupational ideology of janitors in apartment buildings. 399 00:25:55,840 --> 00:25:57,879 Speaker 1: And we were reading about this in the book Understanding 400 00:25:57,960 --> 00:26:05,040 Speaker 1: Modern Sociology, and Hughes in essentially tracking I think it 401 00:26:05,160 --> 00:26:08,159 Speaker 1: might have just been one janitor throughout all of his 402 00:26:08,280 --> 00:26:14,800 Speaker 1: work cleaning out these apartments. UM found that the intimate 403 00:26:15,040 --> 00:26:21,560 Speaker 1: details that this gender could glean from people's trash produce 404 00:26:21,720 --> 00:26:24,480 Speaker 1: a quote kind of magical power because he knew so 405 00:26:24,520 --> 00:26:27,480 Speaker 1: much about them, you know, and also clued him into 406 00:26:27,520 --> 00:26:32,520 Speaker 1: the fact that huh, okay, these people might be employed 407 00:26:32,560 --> 00:26:36,600 Speaker 1: in like higher status work, um, but they're not really 408 00:26:36,640 --> 00:26:41,280 Speaker 1: any better than me, this working class individual, because look 409 00:26:41,280 --> 00:26:44,040 Speaker 1: at all this look at look at your dirty homes, 410 00:26:44,040 --> 00:26:47,679 Speaker 1: look at all this stuff in your trash. Dude. Yeah. So, um, 411 00:26:47,720 --> 00:26:52,640 Speaker 1: I did a study abroad thing one summer, and uh, 412 00:26:52,880 --> 00:26:56,960 Speaker 1: they the school hired students who weren't going home for 413 00:26:57,000 --> 00:27:01,399 Speaker 1: the summer to act as the basically the janitorial staff 414 00:27:01,440 --> 00:27:08,520 Speaker 1: for the dorms, and um, it was so embarrassing because 415 00:27:08,800 --> 00:27:14,120 Speaker 1: here are all of these like privileged students at this 416 00:27:14,440 --> 00:27:20,439 Speaker 1: very incredible university in this other country. Uh and you know, 417 00:27:20,520 --> 00:27:23,879 Speaker 1: privileged students of all ethnic backgrounds, I should add, But 418 00:27:24,440 --> 00:27:29,120 Speaker 1: here we are these jerkish American students like basically trashing 419 00:27:29,119 --> 00:27:33,040 Speaker 1: our rooms. And I don't mean like throwing trash literally, 420 00:27:33,080 --> 00:27:37,280 Speaker 1: but like our stuff was just everywhere and anyway, these 421 00:27:37,320 --> 00:27:40,080 Speaker 1: these student janitors basically had to go to the head 422 00:27:40,119 --> 00:27:42,080 Speaker 1: of the school, who then had to come to us 423 00:27:42,160 --> 00:27:45,679 Speaker 1: to talk to us about, like, you can't just have 424 00:27:45,880 --> 00:27:49,680 Speaker 1: your rooms destroyed. These are human people who are coming 425 00:27:49,720 --> 00:27:53,080 Speaker 1: into clean up and just like take your trash out, 426 00:27:53,119 --> 00:27:55,800 Speaker 1: wipe your sink down, all of that stuff. Like, have 427 00:27:55,960 --> 00:27:59,240 Speaker 1: a little respect, you know, pick your clothes up off 428 00:27:59,240 --> 00:28:01,159 Speaker 1: the floor so these people can get in, you know, 429 00:28:01,320 --> 00:28:03,600 Speaker 1: don't leave trash on the floor. Put it in your 430 00:28:03,680 --> 00:28:06,840 Speaker 1: trash can. Yeah, maybe pretend like you don't have a 431 00:28:06,880 --> 00:28:09,800 Speaker 1: magical custodial staff coming in to clean up after you. 432 00:28:10,480 --> 00:28:13,480 Speaker 1: I'm also I'm just betting that one of those students 433 00:28:13,520 --> 00:28:15,439 Speaker 1: is now working in our office building and scares her 434 00:28:15,480 --> 00:28:24,480 Speaker 1: bookers on the doors. It is not you, um. But 435 00:28:25,040 --> 00:28:29,720 Speaker 1: the flip side of this class issue, and also the 436 00:28:29,840 --> 00:28:36,760 Speaker 1: racial coding of custodial work has led to women of 437 00:28:36,760 --> 00:28:41,480 Speaker 1: color in particular who might have jobs, particularly in academia 438 00:28:41,560 --> 00:28:47,320 Speaker 1: and stem, who are often then mistaken as custodians. Oh yeah, 439 00:28:47,960 --> 00:28:50,600 Speaker 1: didn't they. There was a study it's called double Jeopardy 440 00:28:50,720 --> 00:28:53,080 Speaker 1: gender bias against women of color and science. Wasn't there 441 00:28:53,120 --> 00:28:55,600 Speaker 1: one woman who was literally asked, she's in her lab 442 00:28:55,640 --> 00:28:58,920 Speaker 1: coat and she's like literally asked if she has access 443 00:28:58,960 --> 00:29:04,280 Speaker 1: to the janitor closet or something. She's like, uh no, 444 00:29:04,400 --> 00:29:08,640 Speaker 1: I mean I have keys to the office because I 445 00:29:08,720 --> 00:29:13,120 Speaker 1: work here as a researcher. Yeah, I mean that wasn't 446 00:29:13,160 --> 00:29:20,680 Speaker 1: an isolated incident. For latina's especially, they're often mistaken, like 447 00:29:20,720 --> 00:29:23,440 Speaker 1: you said, even when they're wearing lab coat and even 448 00:29:23,520 --> 00:29:26,960 Speaker 1: during office hours. Yeah, just mistaken for the cleaning stuff. 449 00:29:27,120 --> 00:29:30,640 Speaker 1: And that reminds me of these tweets I saw yesterday 450 00:29:30,680 --> 00:29:35,080 Speaker 1: on Instagram. Funnily enough that Mike m I See News 451 00:29:35,240 --> 00:29:40,320 Speaker 1: had posted of this uh African American guy who said 452 00:29:40,440 --> 00:29:45,040 Speaker 1: that his number one inspiration for like not putting up 453 00:29:45,040 --> 00:29:48,400 Speaker 1: with racism came from his mom when she went to 454 00:29:49,360 --> 00:29:53,200 Speaker 1: work and was like the new boss somewhere and there's 455 00:29:53,240 --> 00:29:56,600 Speaker 1: the first employee meeting. You know, the boardroom is set up. 456 00:29:57,080 --> 00:30:02,920 Speaker 1: She walks in and the employees assume that she is 457 00:30:02,920 --> 00:30:06,520 Speaker 1: the T woman. Oh and asked if she can make 458 00:30:06,560 --> 00:30:10,600 Speaker 1: some tea. So what she did like a boss? She 459 00:30:10,760 --> 00:30:13,800 Speaker 1: was like, oh you want some tea? Okay, She took 460 00:30:13,840 --> 00:30:17,720 Speaker 1: their orders, went out, made the t brought it in, 461 00:30:18,080 --> 00:30:20,600 Speaker 1: started the meeting, introduced herself as a new boss, and 462 00:30:20,640 --> 00:30:29,440 Speaker 1: then fired all yeah, oh that is amazing. Yeah, like 463 00:30:30,400 --> 00:30:35,360 Speaker 1: the ultimate clapback. Holy, I hope someone did like a 464 00:30:35,440 --> 00:30:38,160 Speaker 1: spit take two with their tea when she fired them like, 465 00:30:39,200 --> 00:30:43,840 Speaker 1: oh my god, oh people, check your assumptions, check your 466 00:30:43,840 --> 00:30:47,520 Speaker 1: assumptions in your biases and your outright racism. And there 467 00:30:47,520 --> 00:30:51,560 Speaker 1: I mean, and those unconscious biases or conscious biases are 468 00:30:51,560 --> 00:30:54,640 Speaker 1: pretty deeply embedded, at least according to a study that 469 00:30:54,680 --> 00:30:57,200 Speaker 1: was reported on in the New York Times called Looking 470 00:30:57,240 --> 00:31:02,080 Speaker 1: the Part Social status cues shape Raith perception. So what 471 00:31:02,200 --> 00:31:08,200 Speaker 1: these researchers did was show participants head shots of people, um, 472 00:31:08,280 --> 00:31:11,720 Speaker 1: some wearing like noticeably wearing a business suit, you know, 473 00:31:11,720 --> 00:31:13,480 Speaker 1: because you can see in a head shot like the 474 00:31:13,520 --> 00:31:16,400 Speaker 1: tippy top of your outfit. Some were wearing a business suit, 475 00:31:16,760 --> 00:31:21,240 Speaker 1: others were wearing a janitorial uniform. And they showed participantsy 476 00:31:21,320 --> 00:31:24,640 Speaker 1: spaces also in thirteen different skin tones, and asked them 477 00:31:24,800 --> 00:31:31,240 Speaker 1: to just evaluate a pun site what their racial identity was. So, 478 00:31:32,120 --> 00:31:36,960 Speaker 1: uh really, regardless of the skin tone, the participants anytime 479 00:31:37,000 --> 00:31:39,760 Speaker 1: they just saw that janitorial uniform or like, oh that 480 00:31:39,840 --> 00:31:44,640 Speaker 1: person is black. That person is black, A person must 481 00:31:44,720 --> 00:31:49,480 Speaker 1: be black. Yeah, I mean, talk about those internal biases. Well, 482 00:31:49,800 --> 00:31:53,680 Speaker 1: one little wrinkle in the study methodology that the researchers acknowledged, 483 00:31:53,960 --> 00:31:59,320 Speaker 1: um was that since this study was conducted at a 484 00:32:00,000 --> 00:32:02,840 Speaker 1: I want to say, was like a Midwestern college because 485 00:32:02,920 --> 00:32:06,800 Speaker 1: that's just a very white place. Um Uh. They were 486 00:32:06,840 --> 00:32:12,720 Speaker 1: mostly like almost exclusively white college kids evaluating these faces. 487 00:32:12,760 --> 00:32:15,640 Speaker 1: So they were wondering what would happen if the results 488 00:32:15,640 --> 00:32:19,520 Speaker 1: would change if they showed it to a more diverse audience. Well, sure, 489 00:32:19,560 --> 00:32:23,360 Speaker 1: so this is a study of the racial biases of 490 00:32:23,840 --> 00:32:27,120 Speaker 1: white students and white kids in Kansas yet, which I mean, 491 00:32:27,280 --> 00:32:30,520 Speaker 1: that's that's that's a valid study too. Oh yeah, I 492 00:32:30,560 --> 00:32:34,480 Speaker 1: mean I would argue in general, especially for a lot 493 00:32:34,520 --> 00:32:36,440 Speaker 1: of the stuff that we site on the podcast, that 494 00:32:36,560 --> 00:32:40,240 Speaker 1: you want more diverse studies. People of different racial and 495 00:32:40,280 --> 00:32:44,600 Speaker 1: ethnic makeups, people are different ages, genders, et cetera. But 496 00:32:44,720 --> 00:32:47,360 Speaker 1: I think it is very interesting when you do interview 497 00:32:48,280 --> 00:32:52,480 Speaker 1: just white people. Yeah. Also, um, I I cannot confirm 498 00:32:52,560 --> 00:32:57,160 Speaker 1: that they were in Kansas, and nothing and nothing against Kanson, um, 499 00:32:57,200 --> 00:32:58,720 Speaker 1: but yeah, I mean I think it is interesting to 500 00:32:58,840 --> 00:33:03,800 Speaker 1: explore like white students, yeah, biases in particular, and also 501 00:33:03,880 --> 00:33:06,400 Speaker 1: just being aware of these kinds of studies. If you 502 00:33:06,520 --> 00:33:09,600 Speaker 1: are a white person like you and I are, it 503 00:33:09,640 --> 00:33:13,200 Speaker 1: helps us keep in check of our unconscious biases. Those 504 00:33:13,240 --> 00:33:18,440 Speaker 1: snap judgments hashtag cool podcasts, Uh, those snap judgments that 505 00:33:18,600 --> 00:33:22,680 Speaker 1: we will make really just based on on so little 506 00:33:22,720 --> 00:33:25,920 Speaker 1: except for stereotypes. But up next we're going to talk 507 00:33:25,920 --> 00:33:30,600 Speaker 1: about how janitors have organized and said, you know what, 508 00:33:31,560 --> 00:33:36,000 Speaker 1: we are treated really poorly and that's not okay. So 509 00:33:36,000 --> 00:33:39,400 Speaker 1: we're gonna talk about janitors and civil rights when I 510 00:33:39,440 --> 00:33:52,400 Speaker 1: come right back from a quick break. So we spent 511 00:33:52,440 --> 00:33:54,760 Speaker 1: the first half of his podcast talking about how pretty 512 00:33:54,840 --> 00:33:59,880 Speaker 1: much everything is terrible when it comes to our society 513 00:34:00,920 --> 00:34:07,280 Speaker 1: stigmatizing and marginalizing of custodial work, and that might be 514 00:34:07,440 --> 00:34:13,279 Speaker 1: painting custodians as helpless victims, which they are not. I mean, yes, 515 00:34:13,320 --> 00:34:18,040 Speaker 1: they are in relatively low status positions, but that does 516 00:34:18,080 --> 00:34:22,120 Speaker 1: not mean that they haven't recognize what is going on 517 00:34:22,680 --> 00:34:26,000 Speaker 1: and taken action to change that. Yeah, I mean we 518 00:34:26,040 --> 00:34:31,880 Speaker 1: mentioned unions earlier, and UH, janitorial workers have unionized to 519 00:34:32,360 --> 00:34:38,520 Speaker 1: protest things like outsourcing, shady contractors and building managers. UM. 520 00:34:38,680 --> 00:34:42,080 Speaker 1: And one part of the movement that has cited over 521 00:34:42,120 --> 00:34:45,240 Speaker 1: and over again whenever you read about janitorial workers as 522 00:34:45,440 --> 00:34:48,719 Speaker 1: part of the labor movement UH and the civil rights 523 00:34:48,719 --> 00:34:53,320 Speaker 1: movements in particular UM is the Janitors for Justice movement. 524 00:34:53,760 --> 00:34:57,680 Speaker 1: And so basically the term Janitors for Justice that name 525 00:34:58,239 --> 00:35:00,080 Speaker 1: was used for the first time in nineteen eight the 526 00:35:00,320 --> 00:35:05,040 Speaker 1: six when Pittsburgh Janitors used it during a successful protest, 527 00:35:05,120 --> 00:35:09,759 Speaker 1: and a few years later in nineteen nine, Janitors for 528 00:35:09,880 --> 00:35:14,759 Speaker 1: Justice come to Los Angeles and they target the American 529 00:35:14,960 --> 00:35:19,399 Speaker 1: Building Maintenance and Bradford Building Maintenance companies. And just three 530 00:35:19,480 --> 00:35:24,239 Speaker 1: years later, the Janitors for Justice movement comes to Los 531 00:35:24,320 --> 00:35:27,480 Speaker 1: Angeles to target that company we mentioned earlier a b 532 00:35:27,680 --> 00:35:32,360 Speaker 1: M American Building Maintenance. They also target Bradford Building Maintenance 533 00:35:32,560 --> 00:35:37,280 Speaker 1: for not providing better wages and working conditions standard issue 534 00:35:37,800 --> 00:35:42,240 Speaker 1: positive effects of of a union advocating for better working 535 00:35:42,239 --> 00:35:45,279 Speaker 1: conditions and better wages. And we have mentioned earlier that 536 00:35:45,760 --> 00:35:50,239 Speaker 1: uh CUS studio work is largely absent in a lot 537 00:35:50,280 --> 00:35:53,760 Speaker 1: of academia, but you do start to see in eighty 538 00:35:53,880 --> 00:35:57,600 Speaker 1: nine U c. L A in particular, really starting to 539 00:35:57,640 --> 00:36:01,040 Speaker 1: focus in and study this group. And so they published 540 00:36:01,040 --> 00:36:04,480 Speaker 1: a study the same year highlighting the bleak economics of 541 00:36:04,520 --> 00:36:08,160 Speaker 1: being a custodian. And you might think, yeah, no doubt, 542 00:36:08,200 --> 00:36:11,960 Speaker 1: that's like a no brainer, but no, that's extremely important 543 00:36:12,280 --> 00:36:16,239 Speaker 1: to validate the situation happening with these people. A lot 544 00:36:16,280 --> 00:36:18,120 Speaker 1: of people were being taken advantage of, well, it was 545 00:36:18,160 --> 00:36:20,960 Speaker 1: good timing for such a study because just a year 546 00:36:21,040 --> 00:36:25,520 Speaker 1: later in n there is a horrifying incident that happens 547 00:36:25,560 --> 00:36:29,120 Speaker 1: that we see this tipping point in the janitorial labor 548 00:36:29,200 --> 00:36:34,080 Speaker 1: movement in Los Angeles when l A p D officers 549 00:36:35,280 --> 00:36:38,640 Speaker 1: beat immigrant janitors who were striking for the right to 550 00:36:38,760 --> 00:36:44,200 Speaker 1: unionize in Century City. UM. Those protesters were specifically targeting UH, 551 00:36:44,239 --> 00:36:48,680 Speaker 1: the giant Danish owned company I S S. As a 552 00:36:48,719 --> 00:36:53,240 Speaker 1: result of this police violence, according to the Nation, two 553 00:36:53,360 --> 00:36:58,640 Speaker 1: women miscarried, dozens of these workers were hospitalized, in sixty 554 00:36:58,719 --> 00:37:02,960 Speaker 1: people in up jailed. I mean, this is that's insane. 555 00:37:03,000 --> 00:37:06,520 Speaker 1: That kind of brutality is crazy, and it served to 556 00:37:07,920 --> 00:37:12,680 Speaker 1: galvanized people, not only other workers, but also just people 557 00:37:12,680 --> 00:37:14,799 Speaker 1: who were reading the news. There was all of this 558 00:37:14,840 --> 00:37:18,680 Speaker 1: public outrage that sort of pushed the Justice for Janitors 559 00:37:18,760 --> 00:37:24,160 Speaker 1: movement and ultimately helped the Service Employees International Union organized 560 00:37:24,280 --> 00:37:28,800 Speaker 1: more than a hundred and thirty thousand union contracted janitors. 561 00:37:28,880 --> 00:37:30,480 Speaker 1: And this is kind of a side note, but it 562 00:37:30,560 --> 00:37:33,240 Speaker 1: is relevant to the situation going on today in terms 563 00:37:33,320 --> 00:37:37,760 Speaker 1: of police brutality and communities of color because the reason 564 00:37:37,800 --> 00:37:42,320 Speaker 1: why that public outrage happened was because there was actual 565 00:37:42,560 --> 00:37:47,080 Speaker 1: footage of the police beating these protesters. And this is 566 00:37:47,080 --> 00:37:49,480 Speaker 1: the same kind of thing that you see um around 567 00:37:49,480 --> 00:37:52,680 Speaker 1: the same time with Rodney King riots and also in 568 00:37:52,840 --> 00:37:56,319 Speaker 1: l A. Because you have the footage, because people are 569 00:37:56,360 --> 00:37:59,120 Speaker 1: being forced to see this. If it was just written up, 570 00:37:59,280 --> 00:38:01,759 Speaker 1: even if they were just static photos, I don't know 571 00:38:01,840 --> 00:38:04,880 Speaker 1: that it would have had as deep of an impact 572 00:38:05,080 --> 00:38:08,680 Speaker 1: is actually seeing it happening, Yeah, because once you see 573 00:38:08,719 --> 00:38:12,439 Speaker 1: it happening, it's hard to I mean, it's the same 574 00:38:12,480 --> 00:38:17,040 Speaker 1: thing with Philander Castile and his girlfriend basically documenting everything 575 00:38:17,080 --> 00:38:20,120 Speaker 1: on Facebook live. Yeah, I mean it's like you can't 576 00:38:20,160 --> 00:38:23,000 Speaker 1: look away at that point. And and it's a similar 577 00:38:23,040 --> 00:38:27,560 Speaker 1: thing too of making these communities visible right well. And 578 00:38:27,560 --> 00:38:30,239 Speaker 1: and it wasn't the thing too that despite all of 579 00:38:30,239 --> 00:38:32,960 Speaker 1: this violence, the next day all those workers got together 580 00:38:33,040 --> 00:38:36,640 Speaker 1: and decided to come back and strike again. Oh absolutely, 581 00:38:36,680 --> 00:38:40,280 Speaker 1: because remember you have the police. Lap D arrested sixty 582 00:38:40,360 --> 00:38:42,920 Speaker 1: of them, and they would have gotten away with it 583 00:38:42,960 --> 00:38:46,000 Speaker 1: completely if there hadn't been footage that leaked in. The 584 00:38:46,400 --> 00:38:48,640 Speaker 1: l A. P D had to be like, oh, it's okay, 585 00:38:48,680 --> 00:38:52,160 Speaker 1: we'll let you go, and Janitors for Justice was like 586 00:38:52,320 --> 00:38:55,200 Speaker 1: all right, well, this this is the moment, and this 587 00:38:55,280 --> 00:38:58,200 Speaker 1: is when it really starts to go more national. So 588 00:38:58,280 --> 00:39:02,759 Speaker 1: you see University of Miami a janitors fasting in protest 589 00:39:03,400 --> 00:39:06,799 Speaker 1: and winning UM. You also have a students who were 590 00:39:06,840 --> 00:39:10,360 Speaker 1: supporting them as well outside of the food hall UM, 591 00:39:10,400 --> 00:39:13,200 Speaker 1: some of them also joining in the fast. You have 592 00:39:13,280 --> 00:39:17,279 Speaker 1: Houston janitors winning an historic union contract, which is a 593 00:39:17,320 --> 00:39:19,560 Speaker 1: big deal because Texas is a right to work state 594 00:39:20,040 --> 00:39:23,480 Speaker 1: and across the country s c I, you and the 595 00:39:23,600 --> 00:39:29,000 Speaker 1: Janitors for Justice movement start targeting building owners and financiers, 596 00:39:29,040 --> 00:39:33,920 Speaker 1: not just the cleaning services contractors that are beholden to them. 597 00:39:33,960 --> 00:39:36,520 Speaker 1: They're going to the people who are really holding the 598 00:39:36,600 --> 00:39:39,360 Speaker 1: keys of the power. In other words, you can't ignore 599 00:39:39,480 --> 00:39:42,399 Speaker 1: how badly we're being treated. You can't ignore us as 600 00:39:43,200 --> 00:39:47,080 Speaker 1: human beings. And the fact that they were targeting though 601 00:39:47,160 --> 00:39:53,120 Speaker 1: those UH, building owners and financiers was a huge deal 602 00:39:53,520 --> 00:39:57,560 Speaker 1: because of something that's termed the who's the Boss problem, 603 00:39:57,640 --> 00:40:01,440 Speaker 1: where it's like okay, Tony and always shows up when 604 00:40:01,440 --> 00:40:03,840 Speaker 1: you at least expected. Yeah, it's like getting Rick rolled, 605 00:40:04,160 --> 00:40:07,480 Speaker 1: but you just got dansa, Tony. Don't don't e, don't e. 606 00:40:07,920 --> 00:40:11,080 Speaker 1: Oh No. That who's the Boss problem is when you 607 00:40:11,200 --> 00:40:17,319 Speaker 1: have these tiers of management between employees that are being 608 00:40:17,320 --> 00:40:22,000 Speaker 1: taken advantage of, in this case custodial services, and the 609 00:40:22,040 --> 00:40:24,920 Speaker 1: you know, ultimate gatekeepers, who are the people who are 610 00:40:25,560 --> 00:40:29,960 Speaker 1: paying for those cleaning contractors to then come in. This 611 00:40:30,080 --> 00:40:34,600 Speaker 1: actually recently happened in New York at we Work, which 612 00:40:34,800 --> 00:40:39,959 Speaker 1: is a terrific startup all about um coworking spaces, and 613 00:40:40,040 --> 00:40:43,400 Speaker 1: they were trying to do the right thing and boot 614 00:40:43,440 --> 00:40:48,279 Speaker 1: this corrupt cleaning service from their building. But in the 615 00:40:48,320 --> 00:40:51,600 Speaker 1: process a lot of people lost their jobs. And it's 616 00:40:51,640 --> 00:40:54,200 Speaker 1: part of the whole Who's the Boss issue where it's like, okay, yeah, 617 00:40:54,200 --> 00:40:58,560 Speaker 1: their issues with these cleaning contractors, but they're connected to 618 00:40:59,320 --> 00:41:02,480 Speaker 1: much powerful people higher up the ranks, and when it 619 00:41:02,520 --> 00:41:08,160 Speaker 1: comes to picketing and protesting, but who's the boss problem 620 00:41:08,200 --> 00:41:12,680 Speaker 1: arises with the fact that it is illegal to secondarily 621 00:41:12,800 --> 00:41:16,439 Speaker 1: pick it. So if you are, let's use how Stuff 622 00:41:16,480 --> 00:41:20,319 Speaker 1: Works as an example. Okay, so you and I are 623 00:41:20,719 --> 00:41:23,360 Speaker 1: going to protest how stuff Works. But how Stuff Works 624 00:41:23,520 --> 00:41:27,600 Speaker 1: is owned by a parent company called open Mail. So 625 00:41:27,640 --> 00:41:30,920 Speaker 1: if I'm understanding my labor laws correctly, you and I 626 00:41:30,960 --> 00:41:33,160 Speaker 1: can pick it outside of the How Stuff Works offices 627 00:41:33,360 --> 00:41:35,279 Speaker 1: all day long. That's totally fine, but it would be 628 00:41:35,320 --> 00:41:38,760 Speaker 1: secondary picketing if we flew out to Venice Beach and 629 00:41:39,080 --> 00:41:42,320 Speaker 1: uh got sand in our shoes picketing outside the open 630 00:41:42,360 --> 00:41:48,080 Speaker 1: mail office. I see, yeah. So Uh. The campaign architect, 631 00:41:48,160 --> 00:41:51,720 Speaker 1: Stephen Lerner was talking about this in two thousand twelve 632 00:41:52,680 --> 00:41:55,480 Speaker 1: about how the majority of our work in Justice for 633 00:41:55,560 --> 00:41:58,719 Speaker 1: Janitors was trying to figure out how to negotiate around 634 00:41:58,840 --> 00:42:01,400 Speaker 1: those secondary boy out laws. So the fact that they 635 00:42:01,440 --> 00:42:05,480 Speaker 1: were able to first of all, get this very diverse 636 00:42:05,520 --> 00:42:10,520 Speaker 1: group of people together to organize UM and also sort 637 00:42:10,520 --> 00:42:15,360 Speaker 1: of come at the problem from multiple angles, really speaks 638 00:42:15,400 --> 00:42:19,960 Speaker 1: to how well Justice for Janitors was organized. UM. And 639 00:42:20,000 --> 00:42:23,680 Speaker 1: I thought it was also notable that Stephen Learner has 640 00:42:23,719 --> 00:42:27,759 Speaker 1: since two thousand twelve left the Service Employees International Union 641 00:42:27,760 --> 00:42:31,279 Speaker 1: and is now working on a campaign to unionize bank tellers. 642 00:42:32,320 --> 00:42:35,480 Speaker 1: Well there you go, spreading the good even farther. That's right. 643 00:42:35,680 --> 00:42:38,720 Speaker 1: And and you know you mentioned bringing together these diverse 644 00:42:38,760 --> 00:42:41,560 Speaker 1: groups of people around a common issue, and and they 645 00:42:41,600 --> 00:42:45,200 Speaker 1: succeeded because they had a multi pronged approach. They didn't 646 00:42:45,239 --> 00:42:50,160 Speaker 1: just use one tactic. It wasn't just picketing, um. They 647 00:42:50,239 --> 00:42:55,560 Speaker 1: employed yes, strikes and civil disobedience but also engaging shareholders 648 00:42:56,000 --> 00:43:00,799 Speaker 1: and directly challenging other businesses and social employal interest as 649 00:43:00,840 --> 00:43:06,439 Speaker 1: well talking to them about their exploitive practices. And over 650 00:43:06,480 --> 00:43:10,040 Speaker 1: at Bloomberg, Josh Edelson was writing about this recently about 651 00:43:10,120 --> 00:43:15,080 Speaker 1: how it was a mix of political, legal, consumer, community, 652 00:43:15,480 --> 00:43:20,480 Speaker 1: media and workplace pressure that they enforce. I mean, they're 653 00:43:21,040 --> 00:43:24,759 Speaker 1: they're really going for it. And UM. One thing that's 654 00:43:24,760 --> 00:43:27,080 Speaker 1: sort of a side note is how you know, a 655 00:43:27,080 --> 00:43:29,839 Speaker 1: lot of especially in l A, a lot of these 656 00:43:29,840 --> 00:43:36,120 Speaker 1: employees are Latino and some of the protests tactics are 657 00:43:36,960 --> 00:43:43,160 Speaker 1: directly borrowed from UM protests and civil rights movements in 658 00:43:43,440 --> 00:43:46,439 Speaker 1: Central and South America. And I mean it is interesting too, 659 00:43:46,440 --> 00:43:50,879 Speaker 1: though to look at the gendered aspects of these janitorial 660 00:43:51,440 --> 00:43:56,160 Speaker 1: labor movements and membership in the union, because unions are 661 00:43:56,200 --> 00:44:01,000 Speaker 1: historically masculine spaces, but in a lot of cases, some 662 00:44:01,160 --> 00:44:05,000 Speaker 1: of these janitorial unions have become more female dominated, and 663 00:44:05,040 --> 00:44:09,319 Speaker 1: there's been a lot of talk around the benefits of that, 664 00:44:09,520 --> 00:44:14,200 Speaker 1: or just simply the effects of gendering of things skewing 665 00:44:14,239 --> 00:44:17,640 Speaker 1: more female. For instance, a lot of people talk about, oh, well, 666 00:44:17,680 --> 00:44:22,880 Speaker 1: women's natural like caretaking abilities make them more effective in 667 00:44:22,920 --> 00:44:26,359 Speaker 1: these unions to organize people. There was one guy that 668 00:44:26,760 --> 00:44:30,160 Speaker 1: we read about who was talking about how like, yeah, 669 00:44:30,239 --> 00:44:33,680 Speaker 1: you know, men are men are too arrogant. Uh. They 670 00:44:33,760 --> 00:44:36,520 Speaker 1: they're cocky and they'll just stand up and go off 671 00:44:36,560 --> 00:44:39,400 Speaker 1: half cocked. Whereas the women that I've watched in a 672 00:44:39,440 --> 00:44:43,000 Speaker 1: lot of these unions are more careful and steady, and 673 00:44:43,080 --> 00:44:44,920 Speaker 1: they plan it out and they're able to hold their 674 00:44:44,960 --> 00:44:48,280 Speaker 1: position longer. Yeah. That was coming up in a paper 675 00:44:49,080 --> 00:44:52,920 Speaker 1: constructing the Union Motherhood, Gender and Social Reproduction in the 676 00:44:52,960 --> 00:44:57,879 Speaker 1: Los Angeles Justice for Janitor's movement, which really highlighted, um, 677 00:44:57,920 --> 00:45:01,200 Speaker 1: how Latino women in particular in this union were able 678 00:45:01,239 --> 00:45:06,160 Speaker 1: to rise to union leadership and also make not only 679 00:45:06,360 --> 00:45:09,959 Speaker 1: just that gendered care giving more visible in their union work, 680 00:45:10,040 --> 00:45:16,040 Speaker 1: but also bring um the impact of these work issues 681 00:45:16,080 --> 00:45:21,839 Speaker 1: on families more to the forefront of union platforms. Yeah, 682 00:45:21,840 --> 00:45:25,600 Speaker 1: and the study, the study author rights these women constructed 683 00:45:25,719 --> 00:45:30,000 Speaker 1: a union motherhood that undermined the invisibility and devaluation of 684 00:45:30,120 --> 00:45:36,440 Speaker 1: caregiving generally performed by women. Yeah. So next time you 685 00:45:36,880 --> 00:45:39,799 Speaker 1: see a member of a custodial staff, you know, just 686 00:45:39,840 --> 00:45:42,799 Speaker 1: assuming like, oh, you know, that's all you can do, 687 00:45:43,160 --> 00:45:47,120 Speaker 1: just just dusting and sweeping. Yeah, no, no, you know, 688 00:45:47,239 --> 00:45:51,319 Speaker 1: nothing fictional person I'm talking about. Well, I think one 689 00:45:51,360 --> 00:45:56,839 Speaker 1: person that can no longer ever be underestimated is Corey Menafee. Uh. 690 00:45:56,880 --> 00:46:01,839 Speaker 1: In June of this Yale maintenance its worker was all 691 00:46:01,840 --> 00:46:05,880 Speaker 1: over the news because he broke a stained glass window 692 00:46:06,000 --> 00:46:10,000 Speaker 1: at Yale that depicted slaves carrying cotton. He used his 693 00:46:10,040 --> 00:46:13,239 Speaker 1: broom to break it. I mean people had been protesting 694 00:46:13,280 --> 00:46:17,000 Speaker 1: this window forever and talking to school administrators about getting 695 00:46:17,000 --> 00:46:21,320 Speaker 1: this window removed. And uh he he was quoted as saying, 696 00:46:21,320 --> 00:46:24,360 Speaker 1: I thought, I'm tired of looking at this. I'm about 697 00:46:24,400 --> 00:46:27,440 Speaker 1: to break this. It's the twenty first century. Why do 698 00:46:27,560 --> 00:46:30,200 Speaker 1: I have to go to work and look at this? 699 00:46:30,600 --> 00:46:33,640 Speaker 1: And that window was in Calhoun College, named after former 700 00:46:33,719 --> 00:46:38,600 Speaker 1: Vice President John C. Calhoun, who advocated for slavery, hence 701 00:46:39,000 --> 00:46:41,520 Speaker 1: the stained glass. And yeah, like you said, students had 702 00:46:41,520 --> 00:46:44,600 Speaker 1: been protesting it. Um, they were also protesting the very 703 00:46:44,680 --> 00:46:47,040 Speaker 1: name of the college, wanting to get that change. But 704 00:46:47,120 --> 00:46:50,640 Speaker 1: I love that. It just took Corey menafe just getting 705 00:46:50,800 --> 00:46:55,120 Speaker 1: so fed up. I mean, he himself had gone to college, 706 00:46:55,200 --> 00:46:58,799 Speaker 1: he graduated right when the recession hit. Um, he got 707 00:46:58,840 --> 00:47:02,359 Speaker 1: work as a substitut teacher, and then he saw that, 708 00:47:02,840 --> 00:47:05,440 Speaker 1: you know, the Yale maintenance staff was hiring and it 709 00:47:05,480 --> 00:47:08,160 Speaker 1: paid better than substitute teaching. Well, yeah, because I think 710 00:47:08,200 --> 00:47:10,600 Speaker 1: he was trained as a journalist. He went to work 711 00:47:10,640 --> 00:47:12,680 Speaker 1: at a at a newspaper for a little while, but 712 00:47:12,800 --> 00:47:16,600 Speaker 1: we all know how well newspapers fired during the recession, 713 00:47:17,440 --> 00:47:21,759 Speaker 1: um and now. But but he's another person who, like 714 00:47:24,080 --> 00:47:25,799 Speaker 1: I hate that we even have to say, here's an 715 00:47:25,840 --> 00:47:30,360 Speaker 1: example of a person with dreams. But I mean janitorial work, 716 00:47:30,719 --> 00:47:33,879 Speaker 1: and janitors tend to be so invisible and dismissed. It's 717 00:47:33,920 --> 00:47:37,319 Speaker 1: so easy to look at people who are mopping the 718 00:47:37,360 --> 00:47:40,239 Speaker 1: floor and just say, like you were saying, uh, this 719 00:47:40,280 --> 00:47:42,640 Speaker 1: person must not be able to do anything else. Well, 720 00:47:42,680 --> 00:47:46,480 Speaker 1: sometimes when it's time to feed your family, you will 721 00:47:46,560 --> 00:47:50,439 Speaker 1: take the work, regardless of what your background is. Yeah. Well, 722 00:47:50,480 --> 00:47:52,960 Speaker 1: and it goes to what Kingsley was saying, that idea 723 00:47:53,040 --> 00:47:56,319 Speaker 1: that janitors are just lazy they have no ambition to 724 00:47:56,400 --> 00:48:00,080 Speaker 1: do anything, when in fact, especially in the case of 725 00:48:00,120 --> 00:48:03,840 Speaker 1: Corey Menafy, it's the exact opposite. He's so badly was 726 00:48:03,880 --> 00:48:06,400 Speaker 1: just trying to make a living to support his family, 727 00:48:06,680 --> 00:48:09,520 Speaker 1: and he wanted to be responsible and he and he 728 00:48:09,560 --> 00:48:11,200 Speaker 1: had kept the job for a while. He was like, 729 00:48:11,360 --> 00:48:14,719 Speaker 1: it's good work. It's very steady and reliable. And he 730 00:48:14,800 --> 00:48:19,840 Speaker 1: was initially fired after breaking that window, but once, you know, 731 00:48:19,880 --> 00:48:23,760 Speaker 1: they got national media attention and Coreotta's job back thankfully, 732 00:48:24,000 --> 00:48:27,200 Speaker 1: And he told NBC, I'm not an activist. What I 733 00:48:27,239 --> 00:48:29,400 Speaker 1: did is not on the level of Rosa Parks and 734 00:48:29,440 --> 00:48:32,160 Speaker 1: other grades like Martin Luther King. I'm just the regular 735 00:48:32,200 --> 00:48:35,520 Speaker 1: guy who had enough and I broke it. Isn't that 736 00:48:35,640 --> 00:48:38,480 Speaker 1: the history of so much activism in this country? I know, 737 00:48:38,880 --> 00:48:42,640 Speaker 1: I know, I thought, Corey, come on, now, you are 738 00:48:42,680 --> 00:48:46,160 Speaker 1: an activist, Corey, But then I thought, white girl, don't 739 00:48:46,160 --> 00:48:50,600 Speaker 1: tell Corey who he is and is not. But yeah, 740 00:48:50,640 --> 00:48:52,960 Speaker 1: I mean what I'm well, all I'm saying is that 741 00:48:53,280 --> 00:48:59,080 Speaker 1: in this country, across ethnicities and class and gender, it 742 00:48:59,160 --> 00:49:02,879 Speaker 1: often is the regular guy who takes the stand well 743 00:49:02,920 --> 00:49:08,040 Speaker 1: and just such such an image that unfortunately we don't 744 00:49:08,080 --> 00:49:11,880 Speaker 1: have at least I didn't see any um like footage 745 00:49:11,920 --> 00:49:17,200 Speaker 1: of it happening, um, but just imagining him just walking 746 00:49:17,280 --> 00:49:20,440 Speaker 1: up and taking his room and smashing that window. But 747 00:49:20,600 --> 00:49:24,440 Speaker 1: it was so satisfying. I mean, can yeah, can you 748 00:49:24,480 --> 00:49:29,239 Speaker 1: imagine um if there had been instead of a racially 749 00:49:29,400 --> 00:49:32,840 Speaker 1: based situations such as this. If it were gender based 750 00:49:32,880 --> 00:49:35,480 Speaker 1: and there was like a picture of like a woman 751 00:49:35,680 --> 00:49:38,880 Speaker 1: doing a stained glass window of a woman doing something 752 00:49:38,960 --> 00:49:41,560 Speaker 1: and a woman, then you could literally have smashing the 753 00:49:41,600 --> 00:49:46,479 Speaker 1: patriarchy headlines. And I'm I am here for that. Maybe 754 00:49:46,480 --> 00:49:49,040 Speaker 1: we need to get some rooms and smash some windows 755 00:49:49,040 --> 00:49:51,280 Speaker 1: so you can just make we can make our own news. 756 00:49:51,320 --> 00:49:56,200 Speaker 1: Caroline Therapeutic activism. Although ps in terms of Yale and 757 00:49:56,239 --> 00:50:01,000 Speaker 1: Calhun College, uh, the school that they are going to 758 00:50:01,120 --> 00:50:04,320 Speaker 1: leave the name Calhoun College, they have since replaced the 759 00:50:04,360 --> 00:50:09,719 Speaker 1: stained glass with not a slave carrying cotton on his back, 760 00:50:10,600 --> 00:50:13,720 Speaker 1: but Calhoun College is going to remain um, Calhoun College 761 00:50:14,560 --> 00:50:20,680 Speaker 1: as a reminder of essentially how people can be horrible. Yeah, 762 00:50:20,719 --> 00:50:24,759 Speaker 1: I mean that's I get it. Like I I support 763 00:50:24,920 --> 00:50:28,239 Speaker 1: the movement that's happening across this country at colleges to 764 00:50:29,239 --> 00:50:35,000 Speaker 1: rename schools and colleges and buildings, uh from the pro 765 00:50:35,160 --> 00:50:38,680 Speaker 1: slavery people that they were named for, uh to something 766 00:50:38,680 --> 00:50:41,400 Speaker 1: else to some other person. Um. But I mean I 767 00:50:41,440 --> 00:50:43,319 Speaker 1: think it is a valid point of like, oh, yeah, 768 00:50:43,360 --> 00:50:46,560 Speaker 1: we've got to remember how awful. We can't lose that 769 00:50:46,680 --> 00:50:50,240 Speaker 1: history of how awful we were to other humans. Um 770 00:50:50,280 --> 00:50:53,760 Speaker 1: And before we wrap up this episode, this was something 771 00:50:53,880 --> 00:50:58,399 Speaker 1: somewhat tangential but came to my mind almost as soon 772 00:50:58,440 --> 00:51:02,120 Speaker 1: as I started researching this, which is the restroom attendant 773 00:51:02,200 --> 00:51:05,800 Speaker 1: that you mentioned at the top of the podcast, Because 774 00:51:06,000 --> 00:51:10,200 Speaker 1: unlike custodial staff, restroom attendants are extremely visible there right there. 775 00:51:10,320 --> 00:51:14,200 Speaker 1: You cannot avoid one, and they are the object of 776 00:51:14,239 --> 00:51:17,320 Speaker 1: a lot of resentments. Yeah, I think because of that visibility, 777 00:51:17,480 --> 00:51:22,400 Speaker 1: I think it makes people uncomfortable. Um. But one thing 778 00:51:23,360 --> 00:51:26,400 Speaker 1: that astonished me so much in the little media coverage 779 00:51:26,600 --> 00:51:30,520 Speaker 1: and research that I could find about restume attendance was 780 00:51:30,520 --> 00:51:37,000 Speaker 1: that there is no mention of racer class Because maybe 781 00:51:37,040 --> 00:51:40,279 Speaker 1: I've just been to the wrong hoity toity bathrooms, but 782 00:51:40,360 --> 00:51:45,000 Speaker 1: I've only ever seen women of color who are Russiom attendants, 783 00:51:45,280 --> 00:51:47,879 Speaker 1: same with me, and I think it's a similar thing 784 00:51:48,040 --> 00:51:53,600 Speaker 1: for gentlemen's bathrooms. Um. And The New York Times reported 785 00:51:54,280 --> 00:51:56,920 Speaker 1: not so long ago that there is no official headcount 786 00:51:57,360 --> 00:52:00,920 Speaker 1: of how many restroom attendants are still around, but that 787 00:52:00,960 --> 00:52:04,840 Speaker 1: they're still a staple in some upscale hotels, restaurants, also 788 00:52:05,040 --> 00:52:08,000 Speaker 1: nightclubs and strip clubs, although those are more about crowd 789 00:52:08,000 --> 00:52:11,040 Speaker 1: control making sure people aren't just doing a bunch of 790 00:52:11,040 --> 00:52:14,200 Speaker 1: blow in the bathroom and people can't get in, um 791 00:52:14,400 --> 00:52:17,400 Speaker 1: more so than a fancy customer experience. But they talked 792 00:52:17,480 --> 00:52:21,239 Speaker 1: to the director of sales and marketing at the Waldorf 793 00:52:21,280 --> 00:52:26,359 Speaker 1: Historia who said that their attendants add to quote that 794 00:52:26,520 --> 00:52:31,840 Speaker 1: luxury feeling and helped quote create authentic moments for our guests, 795 00:52:32,120 --> 00:52:36,800 Speaker 1: which I wanted to follow up with a question, No, 796 00:52:36,960 --> 00:52:39,239 Speaker 1: he wouldn't. I'm telling you, as someone who used to 797 00:52:39,239 --> 00:52:41,520 Speaker 1: work in marketing, I'm telling you right now, he doesn't 798 00:52:41,560 --> 00:52:44,560 Speaker 1: know what that means. Authentic moments. What does that? No 799 00:52:44,600 --> 00:52:47,120 Speaker 1: one knows what that means. Well, an authentic moment of 800 00:52:47,280 --> 00:52:53,080 Speaker 1: what right exactly? Of you know, some like old school servitude. 801 00:52:53,160 --> 00:52:57,479 Speaker 1: No thanks, Yeah, you can take that authenticity and pack 802 00:52:57,560 --> 00:53:01,279 Speaker 1: it up. Um. They also spoke to the president of 803 00:53:01,320 --> 00:53:07,879 Speaker 1: the Page Hospitality Group, who noted that ladies apparently love them. 804 00:53:08,560 --> 00:53:11,840 Speaker 1: He said, it's a good look for more upscale venue. 805 00:53:12,000 --> 00:53:15,160 Speaker 1: If the bathrooms are disgusting and dirty, it ruins the experience, 806 00:53:15,239 --> 00:53:19,320 Speaker 1: especially for women. Okay, I'm with you on that gross 807 00:53:19,360 --> 00:53:24,080 Speaker 1: bathrooms are not okay, But um, I just thought it 808 00:53:24,120 --> 00:53:27,239 Speaker 1: was interesting that he tried to sell restroom attendance is 809 00:53:27,360 --> 00:53:32,560 Speaker 1: something that women just really love and like, you know, 810 00:53:33,360 --> 00:53:34,879 Speaker 1: and in the same way as I couldn't find any 811 00:53:35,080 --> 00:53:39,360 Speaker 1: history on custodial staff, I couldn't find any history on 812 00:53:40,680 --> 00:53:44,680 Speaker 1: restroom attendance either, because I'm assuming that it's a holdover 813 00:53:45,040 --> 00:53:51,160 Speaker 1: from you know, the British upstairs downstairs gentleman's butler kind 814 00:53:51,200 --> 00:53:55,320 Speaker 1: of thing. But then once you get to the US 815 00:53:55,680 --> 00:54:01,960 Speaker 1: and post slavery, they're almost all ways, especially in men's restrooms, 816 00:54:02,000 --> 00:54:05,720 Speaker 1: like older men of color, some of whom like totally 817 00:54:05,719 --> 00:54:07,560 Speaker 1: love their jobs. The New York Times talked to a 818 00:54:07,560 --> 00:54:09,880 Speaker 1: couple of guys who have been working at their stations 819 00:54:09,920 --> 00:54:13,320 Speaker 1: for years, decades, and they're like, yeah, it's great work, 820 00:54:13,560 --> 00:54:18,320 Speaker 1: I get nice tips, whatever. Um. But when it comes 821 00:54:18,360 --> 00:54:22,799 Speaker 1: to people's discomfort, it's not because we're like, oh, this 822 00:54:22,880 --> 00:54:27,080 Speaker 1: seems like a vestige of our racist past and present, 823 00:54:27,600 --> 00:54:30,440 Speaker 1: but because they were creepy and because they don't like 824 00:54:30,520 --> 00:54:33,520 Speaker 1: to tip, Like why should I give you a dollar 825 00:54:33,719 --> 00:54:35,719 Speaker 1: for handing me a paper towel. I can get my 826 00:54:35,760 --> 00:54:40,160 Speaker 1: own paper towel. And while yeah, I get that perturbed 827 00:54:40,200 --> 00:54:45,040 Speaker 1: person like, that's not what makes me so uncomfortable about it? 828 00:54:45,120 --> 00:54:49,399 Speaker 1: What makes you so uncomfortable because it's like, why why 829 00:54:49,560 --> 00:54:53,239 Speaker 1: is this this? This feels like, um, a servant or 830 00:54:53,280 --> 00:54:55,879 Speaker 1: a maid in my bathroom, Like I don't, I don't 831 00:54:55,880 --> 00:54:58,440 Speaker 1: know what to do. I agree, you know, I become 832 00:54:58,480 --> 00:55:01,520 Speaker 1: like awkward white girl who does not want to seem racist. 833 00:55:01,640 --> 00:55:03,440 Speaker 1: Well then and then I don't have money with me 834 00:55:03,480 --> 00:55:06,040 Speaker 1: in the bathroom, usually like I've left my purse at 835 00:55:06,040 --> 00:55:09,840 Speaker 1: the table or whatever. So then it's like, ah, I can't. 836 00:55:09,880 --> 00:55:11,840 Speaker 1: I almost like I want to wash my hands and 837 00:55:11,840 --> 00:55:13,960 Speaker 1: then just walk out with them wet, like I'm sorry, 838 00:55:14,360 --> 00:55:18,120 Speaker 1: Please don't expend any energy on me. I can't tip you. Well, 839 00:55:18,200 --> 00:55:21,120 Speaker 1: there was even coverage in the Wall Street Journal, um 840 00:55:21,480 --> 00:55:25,800 Speaker 1: mid recession about how resume attendants were making a comeback 841 00:55:26,960 --> 00:55:31,280 Speaker 1: as I think, a way to make people feel richer 842 00:55:31,280 --> 00:55:35,640 Speaker 1: than they were. Yeah. So just I mean talk about 843 00:55:35,719 --> 00:55:38,719 Speaker 1: lots of you know, class and race issues tied up 844 00:55:38,760 --> 00:55:43,040 Speaker 1: with that using people as tools. Yeah. Um, And it's 845 00:55:43,080 --> 00:55:46,719 Speaker 1: just one of those very antiquated jobs to me that 846 00:55:47,520 --> 00:55:50,319 Speaker 1: it's just it's just strange to me that it still exists. Well, 847 00:55:50,360 --> 00:55:53,359 Speaker 1: I think I think you're right to point out how 848 00:55:53,400 --> 00:55:57,320 Speaker 1: interesting it is to compare the visible, the very visible, 849 00:55:57,360 --> 00:56:02,640 Speaker 1: the unavoidably visible bathroom at Tendant with our nearly completely 850 00:56:02,680 --> 00:56:07,359 Speaker 1: invisible uh custodians and janitors out there, and how we 851 00:56:07,400 --> 00:56:09,959 Speaker 1: react to them. And I'm really curious to hear from 852 00:56:10,200 --> 00:56:12,959 Speaker 1: listeners about all of this stuff that we've talked about. 853 00:56:13,400 --> 00:56:15,319 Speaker 1: I have a feeling that there are people listening to 854 00:56:15,360 --> 00:56:21,319 Speaker 1: this right now who are cleaning buildings or cleaning someone's house. Um, 855 00:56:21,440 --> 00:56:25,760 Speaker 1: so write to us and let us know what you think. Also, Kingsley, 856 00:56:25,880 --> 00:56:29,040 Speaker 1: if you're listening, thank you for your letter, first of all, 857 00:56:29,120 --> 00:56:32,359 Speaker 1: and I hope you enjoyed this episode, and please send 858 00:56:32,480 --> 00:56:35,960 Speaker 1: us your thoughts as well. Mom Stuff at how stuff 859 00:56:36,000 --> 00:56:38,600 Speaker 1: works dot com is our email address. You can also 860 00:56:38,680 --> 00:56:41,440 Speaker 1: tweet us at mom Stuff Podcast. Our messages on Facebook, 861 00:56:41,680 --> 00:56:43,480 Speaker 1: and we've got a couple of messages to share with 862 00:56:43,560 --> 00:56:52,320 Speaker 1: you right now. Well, Kingsley, speaking of our Librarians episode, 863 00:56:52,320 --> 00:56:55,279 Speaker 1: I have a letter here from Stephanie. She says, I'm 864 00:56:55,280 --> 00:56:58,240 Speaker 1: a Southerner living in Ohio and I've just recently discovered 865 00:56:58,280 --> 00:57:01,200 Speaker 1: your podcast. I realized that I wasn't subscribed to any 866 00:57:01,280 --> 00:57:04,000 Speaker 1: podcast led by women, so I sought to remedy that 867 00:57:04,040 --> 00:57:05,920 Speaker 1: in Yours was one of the ones I chose. Well, 868 00:57:05,960 --> 00:57:08,920 Speaker 1: thank you, Stephan I uh, she says, I was super 869 00:57:08,920 --> 00:57:11,280 Speaker 1: excited to see that you had a two part episode 870 00:57:11,280 --> 00:57:14,400 Speaker 1: about librarians. My mother, a black woman, grew up in 871 00:57:14,400 --> 00:57:17,240 Speaker 1: a small town in Mississippi during the nineteen sixties. She 872 00:57:17,280 --> 00:57:20,400 Speaker 1: attended a segregated school where a black school librarian became 873 00:57:20,400 --> 00:57:23,959 Speaker 1: a mentor tour. She learned all she could about librarianship, 874 00:57:24,000 --> 00:57:27,520 Speaker 1: with the goal of one day becoming a librarian. Unfortunately, 875 00:57:27,560 --> 00:57:30,200 Speaker 1: she was not able to major in library science immediately 876 00:57:30,200 --> 00:57:33,320 Speaker 1: after graduating high school. Her family was poor, so the 877 00:57:33,360 --> 00:57:35,840 Speaker 1: only way she could attend college was through a scholarship. 878 00:57:36,280 --> 00:57:38,600 Speaker 1: She was offered a French and English scholarship to a 879 00:57:38,680 --> 00:57:41,720 Speaker 1: historically black college, so she accepted the English scholarship and 880 00:57:41,800 --> 00:57:44,880 Speaker 1: minored in French. After earning her degree in English, she 881 00:57:44,960 --> 00:57:47,480 Speaker 1: married my father and got a job as an English teacher. 882 00:57:47,880 --> 00:57:49,720 Speaker 1: She taught for a few years, gave birth to my 883 00:57:49,720 --> 00:57:51,960 Speaker 1: elder sister, and then decided it was time for her 884 00:57:52,000 --> 00:57:54,400 Speaker 1: to go back to school and finally earn her masters 885 00:57:54,440 --> 00:57:57,720 Speaker 1: in library science. During her final year in grad school, 886 00:57:57,720 --> 00:58:00,920 Speaker 1: she got pregnant with me Halla, and after graduating, she 887 00:58:00,960 --> 00:58:03,480 Speaker 1: almost immediately got the job at the junior high school. 888 00:58:03,480 --> 00:58:07,040 Speaker 1: She retired from It was pretty cool having a mom librarian. 889 00:58:07,360 --> 00:58:10,040 Speaker 1: She would go to professional conferences attended by authors, and 890 00:58:10,080 --> 00:58:12,240 Speaker 1: she would bring autograph copies of books back for my 891 00:58:12,320 --> 00:58:15,200 Speaker 1: sister and me. I have autograph books from children's authors 892 00:58:15,240 --> 00:58:19,840 Speaker 1: Beverly Cleary, Stephen Kellogg, Arnold Level, and many others. I 893 00:58:19,880 --> 00:58:22,480 Speaker 1: missed my mother dearly, so I really appreciated the memories 894 00:58:22,560 --> 00:58:25,480 Speaker 1: this episode brought back and the pride I felt learning 895 00:58:25,520 --> 00:58:28,400 Speaker 1: that she was one of the few black librarians. I 896 00:58:28,400 --> 00:58:31,880 Speaker 1: have essentially written this long winded email to say thanks 897 00:58:31,880 --> 00:58:35,520 Speaker 1: for the memory. One more thing. My mother said that 898 00:58:35,520 --> 00:58:39,560 Speaker 1: the students referred to her as the library teacher. She 899 00:58:39,600 --> 00:58:42,920 Speaker 1: would gently correct them, but this correction didn't always stick. 900 00:58:43,280 --> 00:58:45,840 Speaker 1: So thanks Stephanie Well. I feel a let her here 901 00:58:45,920 --> 00:58:50,919 Speaker 1: from Jasmine about our Sports Moobs episode and Jasmine rights. 902 00:58:51,960 --> 00:58:54,120 Speaker 1: I listened to your sports move episode. It made me 903 00:58:54,160 --> 00:58:56,520 Speaker 1: remember something. When I was in sixth grade, I went 904 00:58:56,560 --> 00:58:58,720 Speaker 1: from a flat chest to a double D and would 905 00:58:58,720 --> 00:59:01,280 Speaker 1: get bigger before they stopped growing. I had a breast 906 00:59:01,320 --> 00:59:03,880 Speaker 1: reduction at the age of twenty three, going from a 907 00:59:04,000 --> 00:59:08,000 Speaker 1: size thirty six I to a more reasonable double deam. 908 00:59:08,000 --> 00:59:09,680 Speaker 1: But while I was in school, I ended up with 909 00:59:09,720 --> 00:59:13,040 Speaker 1: a problem of being shamed for having bouncing breast, but 910 00:59:13,120 --> 00:59:16,080 Speaker 1: I wasn't allowed to skip jim period. Going to gym 911 00:59:16,160 --> 00:59:19,160 Speaker 1: was seriously painful and embarrassing until I left school, but 912 00:59:19,200 --> 00:59:21,320 Speaker 1: I was never allowed to skip it. But I couldn't 913 00:59:21,360 --> 00:59:23,120 Speaker 1: get a sports bra that fit me, and my parents 914 00:59:23,120 --> 00:59:25,520 Speaker 1: could hardly afford any bra for me to begin with. 915 00:59:25,800 --> 00:59:28,040 Speaker 1: So I ended up hating sports for a long time 916 00:59:28,080 --> 00:59:31,960 Speaker 1: and still really dislike most sports activities. I can't afford 917 00:59:32,000 --> 00:59:34,720 Speaker 1: proper support for my size, and it's so painful to 918 00:59:34,760 --> 00:59:38,520 Speaker 1: do any sort of cardio. However, I've now found a 919 00:59:38,560 --> 00:59:41,160 Speaker 1: sport that I enjoy, even if it does have its 920 00:59:41,200 --> 00:59:45,320 Speaker 1: own boog problems. Here in my hometown, I practice Italian 921 00:59:45,640 --> 00:59:50,400 Speaker 1: sixteenth century rapier as part of the historical European martial 922 00:59:50,520 --> 00:59:53,280 Speaker 1: arts movement. It's a lot of fun, and who doesn't 923 00:59:53,320 --> 00:59:57,080 Speaker 1: like stabbing people for fighting? No one gets hurt, of course, 924 00:59:57,480 --> 00:59:59,320 Speaker 1: though it can be frustrating when you can tell the 925 00:59:59,320 --> 01:00:01,800 Speaker 1: martial arts invented by old men, because some of the 926 01:00:01,800 --> 01:00:04,440 Speaker 1: moves do not work if you have boobs of any sort. 927 01:00:04,920 --> 01:00:07,800 Speaker 1: Often the female practitioners talk about how frustrating it can be, 928 01:00:07,880 --> 01:00:11,760 Speaker 1: but we still have fun. Well, thanks so much, Jasmine. 929 01:00:11,800 --> 01:00:14,400 Speaker 1: I'm gonna have to look up Italian sixteenth century right here, 930 01:00:14,440 --> 01:00:20,400 Speaker 1: because I mean, it's true. Who doesn't love stabbing people? So, listeners, 931 01:00:20,440 --> 01:00:22,880 Speaker 1: we want to hear your thoughts. Mom. Stuff at how 932 01:00:22,920 --> 01:00:25,280 Speaker 1: stuff works dot com is our email address and for 933 01:00:25,360 --> 01:00:27,440 Speaker 1: links to all of our social media as well as 934 01:00:27,440 --> 01:00:30,880 Speaker 1: all of our blogs, videos, and podcasts with our sources 935 01:00:31,280 --> 01:00:34,520 Speaker 1: so you can learn even more about custodial work. Head 936 01:00:34,520 --> 01:00:41,640 Speaker 1: on over to stuff mom Never Told You dot com 937 01:00:41,800 --> 01:00:44,200 Speaker 1: for more on this and thousands of other topics. Is 938 01:00:44,240 --> 01:00:53,240 Speaker 1: it how stuff works dot com