Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome to What Goes Up, a weekly markets podcast.
Speaker 1: My name is Mike Reagan. I'm a senior editor at
Speaker 1: Bloomberg and on the Data High Across Acid Reporter with
Speaker 1: Bloomberg and this week, well, as the name implies, on
Speaker 1: this show, we like to discuss what's going up in markets.
Speaker 1: And while the stock and bond markets haven't given us
Speaker 1: much to talk about, here's one thing that has lean hogs.
Speaker 1: If you want to buy a futures contract on the
Speaker 1: Chicago Mercantile Exchange that represents forty thou pounds of cork,
Speaker 1: it'll set you back about thirty six thousand dollars seven
Speaker 1: and forty dollars at the moment. That's up about twelve
Speaker 1: this year, and it's hardly the only farm product that's
Speaker 1: rallying this year. Futures on corn and soybeans are up
Speaker 1: about the same and well, it's a fascinating market story.
Speaker 1: It also speaks to how those lingering supply chain problems
Speaker 1: and the were in Ukraine are coming home to roost
Speaker 1: on the farm and posing risks to the global food supply.
Speaker 1: We'll get into it with someone who is an expert
Speaker 1: on how these markets work. After all, he is a
Speaker 1: farmer vill Donna. He is. Indeed, he grows all these
Speaker 1: things I believe, hogs, corn and Swimming's very excited I'm
Speaker 1: on the show, But Philpana, I'm also very excited to
Speaker 1: hear about yet another glamorous vacation of yours coming up.
Speaker 1: You love to call me out. I don't know how
Speaker 1: you do it. How where are you jetting off to
Speaker 1: this time? I'm going to Spain? So so next week
Speaker 1: I believe you're flying solo. I won't be around next week.
Speaker 1: Uh to help you with the podcasts. How you'll survive?
Speaker 1: But who is going to roast me mercilessly? I'll have
Speaker 1: to find somebody who can do it as well as
Speaker 1: as well as I do it. Called in. But I'm
Speaker 1: also excited for your trip because this guest this week
Speaker 1: has really got me in the mood for some puork.
Speaker 1: I'm very hungry for some some quork products. You can
Speaker 1: have that in Spain. Well, I know, believe me, I know,
Speaker 1: I know you're gonna be eating nothing but coliflower. Don't
Speaker 1: tell I guess I'm vegetarian and complete colliflower flower diet.
Speaker 1: I think I just heard him tell him, Yes, let
Speaker 1: me let me introduce him. I want to bring him in.
Speaker 1: It's it's Brian Duncan. He's the vice president of the
Speaker 1: Illinois Farm Bureau. He's a farmer in northwest Illinois, and
Speaker 1: he also actually is a podcast host. So Brian, thank
Speaker 1: you so much for joining us on the show this week.
Speaker 1: Thanks for having me here Villdonna. And also, I am
Speaker 1: not a vegetarian. I figured I just didn't want you
Speaker 1: to know that. I am all I want fill Donna.
Speaker 1: It's it's called Iberico ham. They sell it like a
Speaker 1: full hogs leg at a time. It's it's cured, it's delicious.
Speaker 1: I'm not asking for a full forty pound futures contract
Speaker 1: of hand, just pounds, just one leg. You could fit
Speaker 1: it into your carry on on the plane trying. Uh no,
Speaker 1: I'm sorry, but we are not allowing pork products in
Speaker 1: from other countries because of the risk of of a
Speaker 1: foot and mouth disease and so an African swine fever.
Speaker 1: So I'm sorry, Mike. You would have to travel to
Speaker 1: Europe to enjoy that that premium product, even the cured, cured,
Speaker 1: cured and cooked either one. You will not get past
Speaker 1: the Beagle brigade at the airport. That's good to know.
Speaker 1: That's what it's called. That's what it's called. What that
Speaker 1: that the dogs that sniff customs, that's that's what's keeping.
Speaker 1: That's what's keeping our domestic pork production healthy and African
Speaker 1: swine fever free. Well, Dottie, you're gonna have you're gonna
Speaker 1: have to smuggle my hamleg. Then it's gonna be dangerous.
Speaker 1: Are you all smuggle? I'll smuggle, are you yes? But
Speaker 1: so so, Brian, speaking of all of this, I want
Speaker 1: to ask you about exactly this. So you and your
Speaker 1: wife you raise corn, soybeans, sweet pigs, and cattle on
Speaker 1: your farm near Polo, Illinois. So maybe we just start
Speaker 1: out with you telling us about yourself and how things
Speaker 1: are going on the farm today. Sure. Well, again, glad
Speaker 1: to be here and thank you for this opportunity. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I grew up on our family farm. I was fortunate
Speaker 1: enough to marry my high school sweetheart. So we were
Speaker 1: celebrating actually forty years together in thirty three years of
Speaker 1: marriage this year. And uh, we have four children, and
Speaker 1: three of which are also actively involved on our family farm.
Speaker 1: And so it's uh, it's a great lifestyle. It's a
Speaker 1: it's a you know, the hate to sound cliche like
Speaker 1: the movie, but it is a wonderful life and uh
Speaker 1: it's a pretty high calling. I think growing food and
Speaker 1: fuel and fiber for America and for the world, and
Speaker 1: so we take a lot of pride in what we do,
Speaker 1: like all farmers. Uh, yet at the end of the day,
Speaker 1: we're a family business. That's fantastic. I gotta say I
Speaker 1: often had day dreamed about being a farmer. I grew
Speaker 1: up in Pennsylvania, not on our farm, but near farms.
Speaker 1: I'd often day dreamed about being a farmer. But I
Speaker 1: don't know if I can, if I have the fortitude
Speaker 1: of the getting up in the I think I'm meant
Speaker 1: to be an office guy. My features in school would
Speaker 1: a test that I spent an awful lot of time
Speaker 1: daydreaming about being a farmer as well when I was
Speaker 1: living the dream, Mike living the dream Bright, I wanted
Speaker 1: to you know, the listeners of this podcast are very
Speaker 1: much of a financial orientation, investors and traders and that
Speaker 1: sort of thing, so I wanted to tap in a
Speaker 1: little bit into your expertise on the futures market. You know,
Speaker 1: as I said that the futures prices uh on lean, hoggs, corn,
Speaker 1: soybeans all all up tremendously this year. That tremendously, but
Speaker 1: up up a decent amount tremendously when compared to all
Speaker 1: other assets. I'm just kind of curious how a farmer
Speaker 1: like yourself approaches the futures market. You know, we always
Speaker 1: hear that it's a way to sort of hedge what
Speaker 1: your crops are going to do in the coming year,
Speaker 1: But sort of what is your relation ship with the
Speaker 1: futures market? Um? You know, do you deal with a
Speaker 1: broker that sort of thing, and and how does it
Speaker 1: work in your favor or not? Well, I'd say you
Speaker 1: can describe my relationship as solidly love hate and it
Speaker 1: depends on which way the market's going. So yeah, like
Speaker 1: a lot of our most farmers, I employ a bunch
Speaker 1: of different risk management strategies on our farm, and they
Speaker 1: involve hedging with a broker, They involve cash based futures
Speaker 1: contracts with a a packer or a grain merchant. Um.
Speaker 1: We also use some of the government risk management tools,
Speaker 1: the crop insurance or livestock insurance tools that are also
Speaker 1: based off futures markets. So I'm usually using the futures
Speaker 1: markets to manage the risk on my on my crop
Speaker 1: production and on my hogs. Uh as far as I so,
Speaker 1: I do forward selling, forward contracting, and and what I'm
Speaker 1: looking at, Mike is is uh the ability to cover
Speaker 1: costs and allow ourselves a reasonable return. And when we
Speaker 1: see those opportunities, we we certainly do a portion of
Speaker 1: them using using a combination of those risk management tools.
Speaker 1: You know, when you mentioned that that prices are up,
Speaker 1: and they are for agricultural commodities, but that just doesn't
Speaker 1: necessarily mean the profits are up because our costs are
Speaker 1: up as well. You know when you say corn and
Speaker 1: soybeans are are higher, Well, that makes the cost of
Speaker 1: production on the hogs higher. And so we're looking at
Speaker 1: margin and and we're looking at how we can best
Speaker 1: manage that margin and then and then protect that margin
Speaker 1: um out into the future. Yeah right, So I'm I'm
Speaker 1: trying to wrap my head around if I see a
Speaker 1: futures market like this where there are you know, pretty
Speaker 1: good gains in agricultural commodities, who's benefiting from that? Is
Speaker 1: it some farmers, if if they made the right trade,
Speaker 1: or is it mostly speculators hedge funds in the middle
Speaker 1: you know, who are sort of the players in the market,
Speaker 1: uh that that you know, we're are winning are losing
Speaker 1: in an environment like well, the funds have certainly become
Speaker 1: a big driver in these markets, and you certainly want
Speaker 1: to keep an eye on what they're doing if they
Speaker 1: are net long or net short of commodity, and when
Speaker 1: they exit or enter, they can have a pretty dramatic
Speaker 1: impact on the markets because there's not a lot, there's
Speaker 1: not enough money to take the opposite position oftentimes, so
Speaker 1: you'll see them run the market up or down. Hence
Speaker 1: the love or hate relationship that I have with the marketplace.
Speaker 1: Um so yes, it's really Mike, It's it's a combination.
Speaker 1: It could be end users. So when prices go up,
Speaker 1: end users who have locked in their supply benefit because
Speaker 1: they've hedged their risk. Um speculators who have looked at
Speaker 1: geopolitical uh things like weather or war and decided commodities
Speaker 1: were a good investment in the market goes up, and
Speaker 1: certainly producers if they if they've got to handle and
Speaker 1: if they can grow a crop. You know, if you've
Speaker 1: got a drought, it doesn't matter how high the prices
Speaker 1: go if you don't have anything to sell. So in
Speaker 1: generally now, prices going up is a benefit to rural
Speaker 1: America and to farmers. You know, it's just also got
Speaker 1: to be it's more about margin, you know. It's it's
Speaker 1: it's the difference between our cost of production per unit
Speaker 1: and then what that unit is priced at and so
Speaker 1: and so good margins are better than high prices. High
Speaker 1: prices don't necessarily mean good margins, but a lot of
Speaker 1: times they surely do. Does that make any sense to you, Yeah,
Speaker 1: absolutely absolutely. I mean I think that's the same conundrum
Speaker 1: that corporate America is facing, right, you know, uh, sure
Speaker 1: they're selling prices are higher, but their costs are higher too.
Speaker 1: And you know, do you have the pricing power to
Speaker 1: to raise your prices more than your costs? And uh,
Speaker 1: you know not everyone does. So it's it's a that's
Speaker 1: an important point, Mike. Farmers are price takers. We do
Speaker 1: not have pricing power. We are subject to the whims
Speaker 1: of the Board of Trade. The Board of Trade does
Speaker 1: not care what our cost of production is. The futures
Speaker 1: the Mercantel Exchange does not care how much it costs
Speaker 1: me to produce a pound of pork. We are at
Speaker 1: the mercy of the market place, and that's what puts
Speaker 1: farmers in a uniquely disadvantaged position as far as inflation goes.
Speaker 1: We are price takers on both sides. We are subject
Speaker 1: to global fertilizer prices. We do not, as individuals have
Speaker 1: enough market clout to drive a price. So we pay
Speaker 1: what the market offers us on inputs and we take
Speaker 1: what the market gives us on outputs, and so that
Speaker 1: puts us in a very challenging position at times. Yeah,
Speaker 1: So how do you think the average hog farmers doing
Speaker 1: this year? They are they able to protect those margins
Speaker 1: or is it a is it a tough you know?
Speaker 1: I think I think for the most part the hogs,
Speaker 1: hogs have made enough money this year to pay the
Speaker 1: feed bill, which when you look at the price of
Speaker 1: corn and swabians, Um, that's that's really saying something. Now myself,
Speaker 1: I'm in a in a different position than a lot
Speaker 1: of hog producers in which I grow all my corn
Speaker 1: h that I need to feed my hog operation. So
Speaker 1: I'm in essence buying it from myself. Um, and so
Speaker 1: so that there's a benefit to that, that's kind of
Speaker 1: heading a risk. But I would say in general, um,
Speaker 1: a lot of hog producers, I know, implement risk management strategies,
Speaker 1: and when they can see a margin that allows them
Speaker 1: to buy corn and soybean meal and hedgehogs at a
Speaker 1: price that allows them margins, they will take all three positions.
Speaker 1: And so the market has offered those opportunities this year,
Speaker 1: and I think in general, it has been a pretty
Speaker 1: good year, uh for the hog for the hog side
Speaker 1: of the of the business. So, Brian, just to go
Speaker 1: back to the point you were just making about passing
Speaker 1: on prices, because I wanted to ask you about this,
Speaker 1: that it is much more difficult for farmers to do this.
Speaker 1: So can you just for me to better better understand
Speaker 1: the dynamics, can you just talk a little bit more
Speaker 1: about how rising prices, what the how it directly translates
Speaker 1: to you, what the what the relationship actually looks like.
Speaker 1: Surevill Nana. That's and and it's impossible for farmers to
Speaker 1: set their price, at least in a commodity type market. Now,
Speaker 1: if you're a specialty grower or have uh you know,
Speaker 1: a direct to consumer market, then you've got some options.
Speaker 1: But most of us grow bolt commodities and and we, uh,
Speaker 1: we are at the whim of the marketplace, and that
Speaker 1: marketplace has two aspects to it. So it's got the
Speaker 1: futures price that Mike you talked about. You can look
Speaker 1: on the board of Trade and see the prices that
Speaker 1: that the board is offering on different commodities. But then
Speaker 1: the next part of that is the local price, which
Speaker 1: involves basis, and basis is the discount or plus the
Speaker 1: futures price that the local market is willing to pay.
Speaker 1: And usually it's a discount because usually there's transportation involved,
Speaker 1: but in times of shortage, some local markets will actually
Speaker 1: pay over the board of trade. So so farmers usually
Speaker 1: marketing is a two step process. I will do a
Speaker 1: hedge on the board and then I will look for
Speaker 1: opportunities to capture a good basis as well. And so
Speaker 1: it's all a matter of timing, knowing market dynamics, and
Speaker 1: UH looking for those opportunities. So selling for a farmer
Speaker 1: is generally a two step process. On the grain side,
Speaker 1: at least hoggs, there is a basis element to it.
Speaker 1: Um and hogs get really complicated. Hogs, UH do not
Speaker 1: have a way to deliver. If I sold a contract
Speaker 1: on the Mercantile Exchange, there's no way I can deliver
Speaker 1: that contract of Hoggs anywhere. So it does what's called
Speaker 1: cash settled, and it means it has to settle out
Speaker 1: with the cash market and Bildana. This is getting incredibly complicated,
Speaker 1: but the basis is still very real in that aspect
Speaker 1: as well. Now we like we like complicated. It's it's
Speaker 1: fascinating to untackle it, you know, Brad, I was looking
Speaker 1: at the futures curve for hog prices and for listeners
Speaker 1: who don't know what I mean by that. You know,
Speaker 1: there's futures going all the way out to what at
Speaker 1: the end of next year. I think maybe even further.
Speaker 1: I'm gonna pulled up right now. Three is what I show,
Speaker 1: but there might be some there might be further than that.
Speaker 1: And it's a very unusual shape of the curve. In
Speaker 1: other words, it's it's lower. You know, it goes lower
Speaker 1: in the first month, I believe, and then it goes
Speaker 1: really high into like the spring and summer of next month,
Speaker 1: then it comes back down. Um is that simple? Something
Speaker 1: as simple as just a seasonality people you know, doing
Speaker 1: more barbecuing in the summer, that that sort of thing,
Speaker 1: and that you are very observant and that's an excellent question,
Speaker 1: and you have part of the answer correct. But it
Speaker 1: also has to do with the genetic UH and the
Speaker 1: biological reality of pork production. And and I'll put it bluntly,
Speaker 1: salves breed easier, and you have more successful breeding in
Speaker 1: the spring and in the fall. All that's the seasonality
Speaker 1: for a hog. We breed hogs and raise them all year.
Speaker 1: The hogs that you breed in the summer, in the heat,
Speaker 1: your conception isn't as good. And so when you're farrowing
Speaker 1: those pigs in November and December that we'll go to
Speaker 1: market in May, June, and July, your numbers are down.
Speaker 1: And so there are fewer numbers available for the marketplace
Speaker 1: over the summer months due to the seasonality, the biological
Speaker 1: realities of pork production. And we and and Mike, we
Speaker 1: we have these these hogs and in wonderful facilities UH
Speaker 1: air conditioned in in in a certain aspect we use
Speaker 1: engraperative cooling. A lot of fans move a lot of air.
Speaker 1: But that biological reality that there's just gonna be fewer
Speaker 1: market hogs available in the summer is something that we
Speaker 1: have not figured out a way to a work around.
Speaker 1: Yet that is fascinating. So you know, you've got the
Speaker 1: hog honeymoon suite there with the air cushing and the
Speaker 1: mood lighting, I guess, and that ow candle you can't.
Speaker 1: And it's but it's just something in their DNA that
Speaker 1: that regulates that pite very much so and and uh,
Speaker 1: you know the heat. Yeah, it's it's just a seasonal issue.
Speaker 1: And so the numbers will always if you would go
Speaker 1: back and look at a bell curve mike of of
Speaker 1: of hog harvest week by week, the highest, the largest
Speaker 1: harvests are always in October, November, December, and and so
Speaker 1: that results in the lower prices that you're looking at now. Now,
Speaker 1: if you we'd have had this discussion in May, and
Speaker 1: you'd have been looking at at June, July, and August
Speaker 1: hog futures as the leaden months, you'd have seen them
Speaker 1: the highest because there's there's just fewer hogs. And then
Speaker 1: we also experience a bump with grilling season certainly, and
Speaker 1: and and that all helps, but the pure seasonality of
Speaker 1: pork production is very much at play when you look
Speaker 1: at that futures curve. And Brad, we've mentioned a couple
Speaker 1: of differ issues so far So you have inflation, you
Speaker 1: have supply chain issues, you have droughts, and all kinds
Speaker 1: of other other problems that you're dealing with. I'm hoping
Speaker 1: maybe you can just break down one or two of
Speaker 1: them for us and how it directly impacts you. And
Speaker 1: I'm wondering what the most difficult issue or problem has
Speaker 1: been to deal with. Well, I think inflation on inputs
Speaker 1: on the crop side and some of the hog side
Speaker 1: would be would be number one. And I think supply
Speaker 1: chain issues are number two. And on any given day,
Speaker 1: I would trade those back and forth. And uh and
Speaker 1: and I think I think they are, you know, certainly connected.
Speaker 1: I think, uh, inflation. We you guys, you're the experts.
Speaker 1: Why I'm not sure why I you should be telling
Speaker 1: me about this, but but you know, we still see
Speaker 1: some some disruption due to COVID so manufacturing that wasn't done.
Speaker 1: A lot of our inputs come from China, and we
Speaker 1: still see a zero COVID tolerance policy and China that
Speaker 1: impacts that impacts their ability to export some of the
Speaker 1: base materials we need, whether for livestock feed or crop
Speaker 1: production products. UM, we see geopolitical unrest, a lot of
Speaker 1: disruption caused by the war in Ukraine. Russia was a
Speaker 1: large exporter of fertilizer and as you know, a large
Speaker 1: exporter of natural gas to Europe, and and now on
Speaker 1: the nord Stream with the disruption in the Nord Stream pipeline,
Speaker 1: Europe comes shopping here for natural gas, and natural gas
Speaker 1: is a base ingredient for fertilizer, for nitrogen fertilizer, So
Speaker 1: that has definitely been a disruption supply chain, whatever whatever
Speaker 1: you want to call it. And then I think another
Speaker 1: closely related issue with inflation and supply chain is availability
Speaker 1: of labor. And and we see that anywhere from the
Speaker 1: farms to the suppliers to the manufacturers that uh, labor
Speaker 1: is is a very limiting factor. And even in the
Speaker 1: harvest facilities of live stock harvest facilities, the availability of
Speaker 1: labor to to maximize outputs and to maximize the availability
Speaker 1: about inputs is very real for American agriculture right now.
Speaker 1: Is there, Brian, any sense that any of these issues
Speaker 1: are are improving, Is there any sort of white at
Speaker 1: the end of the tunnel for all these problems. I
Speaker 1: I would have said yes, prior to the invasion of Ukraine,
Speaker 1: um that I think I've been saying, And I was
Speaker 1: on a on a farm bureau trip in Europe eight
Speaker 1: days after the invasion happened, been meeting with farmers and
Speaker 1: farm suppliers over there, and I came away saying, this
Speaker 1: has changed American agriculture for a generation. That the redirection
Speaker 1: of raw materials and then of commodity flows I think
Speaker 1: is very real and something we are going to be
Speaker 1: dealing with for a long time. I mean, as Russia
Speaker 1: was a major exporter of fertilizer and natural gas, and
Speaker 1: you also see some tensions with China. They're holding their
Speaker 1: fertilizer within their own country, and yet you see a
Speaker 1: growing demand for fertilizer, be it in Brazil, Africa here. Uh,
Speaker 1: it's just led to it was. It's just a huge disruption.
Speaker 1: So you don't you don't flip a switch and start
Speaker 1: a major fertilizer production plant overnight. It takes years to cite,
Speaker 1: one years to put one in place, and a huge
Speaker 1: investment that that any investor would want to know that
Speaker 1: the returns are not just short term, that there's going
Speaker 1: to be long term demand here. And so I think
Speaker 1: the fertilizer disruption is very real and is uh, something
Speaker 1: we're going to be dealing with going forward for a while.
Speaker 1: The labor issue. Again, you are the experts. I'm a
Speaker 1: I'm a hog farmer from Polo, Illinois. But my sense
Speaker 1: on labor is there needs to be a collective political
Speaker 1: will amongst the leadership in this country to find a
Speaker 1: solution and come forward with some legal immigration reform. When
Speaker 1: we have people willing to work in some of these
Speaker 1: key supply chain jobs, we need to find a way
Speaker 1: to allow them into this country and to fill those tasks. Now,
Speaker 1: the H two A program certainly helps in agriculture, and
Speaker 1: there's some different visa programs that help, but I think
Speaker 1: that is probably more doable than than solving this global
Speaker 1: redirection of fertilizer and energy. I mean, and that's the
Speaker 1: other thing. Agriculture is very fossil fuel dependent. We are
Speaker 1: it's a base product and in making some of the
Speaker 1: some of the chemicals that we use, the plant protection products.
Speaker 1: But our machinery runs on diesel, and when diesel goes up,
Speaker 1: our life gets a lot more expensive. And everything we
Speaker 1: have on the farm or sell on the farm comes
Speaker 1: on a semi or leaves on a semi on a
Speaker 1: big truck and uh, the cost of transportation has gone
Speaker 1: through the roof as well, and so uh, I think
Speaker 1: we need to aggressively continue to to look for solutions
Speaker 1: in the hostile fuel space and uh that would also help, Brian.
Speaker 1: Do you see, just to go back to the point
Speaker 1: about Russia and Ukraine and the fertilizer shortages, do you
Speaker 1: see American farmers stepping into help fill the void, even
Speaker 1: if it's not a quick turnaround. You mean as far
Speaker 1: as like our co ops investing in fertilizer production and
Speaker 1: things like that. Is that what you're talking about, Panana, Yeah, exactly, Yeah,
Speaker 1: maybe so some of our co ops used to own
Speaker 1: fertilizer production facilities, um, and they weren't profitable, and so
Speaker 1: they invested of them and and so we've seen you
Speaker 1: can Yeah, I would call it an old agopoly. A
Speaker 1: very small number of fertilizer companies that control a large
Speaker 1: amount of the supply and farmer and co ops used
Speaker 1: to be in that space, but they're not now. I
Speaker 1: don't know if there is the will or the capital
Speaker 1: to make a long term commitment to re enter that space.
Speaker 1: My sense would be once burnt twice shy, Yeah, you know, Brian.
Speaker 1: The other issue that comes up in pretty much every
Speaker 1: discussion like this, uh, you know about macro issues around
Speaker 1: the world, is is China and the sort of state
Speaker 1: of the economy in China the state of trade relations
Speaker 1: with the US. UM. China from everything I've read, is
Speaker 1: is a major consumer of of US pork products. Um.
Speaker 1: How do you see this decoupling of the US and
Speaker 1: China playing out sort of in the in the longer term?
Speaker 1: Is that a Is that sort of a risk that
Speaker 1: maybe they'll start turning elsewhere for hogs? Uh? Is that
Speaker 1: a danger to to your business at all? Do you think? Yeah?
Speaker 1: I'm I'm very worried about what what I would call
Speaker 1: the relationship that I've read and understood as bricks b
Speaker 1: R I c S Brazil, Russia, Indian China, and how
Speaker 1: they could become a galvanized interdependent force that would have
Speaker 1: that would have tremendous geopolitical consequences and it would definitely
Speaker 1: impact American agriculture. I mean, we see Brazil, so Brazil
Speaker 1: was a main grower of soybeans, okay, and so we
Speaker 1: know they're a lead export competitor on soybeans, but they've
Speaker 1: also advanced in the technologies to grow to crops. And
Speaker 1: when you're in Brazil, they grow corn. It's called the
Speaker 1: safarina crop after they grow soybeans and now the sapharina crop.
Speaker 1: Their average yield is half or less than half of
Speaker 1: what American crops yield, but still that many acres, that's
Speaker 1: a lot of bushels. And and China has made moves
Speaker 1: to accept corn imports from Brazil, which as as we
Speaker 1: look at the redirection of trade, if if there's an
Speaker 1: alliance there, um, that could be very problematic for American
Speaker 1: agriculture and our ability to export. And but I think
Speaker 1: there's other opportunities as well. We don't want to just
Speaker 1: export based commodities. We like to export value added commodities
Speaker 1: like ethanol and and I think there's room there but
Speaker 1: to do exports around the world. But China is is
Speaker 1: uh challenging. How's that for a trading partner. They just
Speaker 1: delisted a pork plant in uh Indiana, um and and
Speaker 1: and I won't accept it for exports. And I'm not
Speaker 1: sure why. I'm not sure anybody knows why. And and
Speaker 1: so these nine tariff trade barriers that we see. China's
Speaker 1: is pretty expert at deploying at times, which makes which
Speaker 1: makes a long term relationship with them very challenging. But
Speaker 1: at the end, when you look at those consumers there,
Speaker 1: American business isn't American farmers time after time have decided
Speaker 1: the juice is worth the squeeze, and so we put
Speaker 1: up with it and and continue to try and move
Speaker 1: into that market. I imagine none of that actually helps
Speaker 1: with rising meat prices, right, And I'm wondering if you
Speaker 1: have seen dwindling consumer demand at all with the right
Speaker 1: with the rise and meat prices that we've seen, I
Speaker 1: have not heard of any The consumer demand remained strong
Speaker 1: and I and and some of the rise and meat
Speaker 1: prices that you're seeing is a fall out of COVID.
Speaker 1: So those of us in production agriculture when COVID hit,
Speaker 1: especially in the livestock business, and I'm sure you you
Speaker 1: covered this, uh back in when we had harvest facilities
Speaker 1: going closed and we had animals with no place to
Speaker 1: sell them. It was a very bleak time in livestock production,
Speaker 1: and there were some decisions made then, and remember the
Speaker 1: biology of the animal. There were some decisions made at
Speaker 1: that time to cull breeding herds, to to exit businesses
Speaker 1: and and in production agriculture, we just can't flip a
Speaker 1: switch and turn a light back on. If I want
Speaker 1: to raise more pigs, I need to and have those
Speaker 1: pigs ready for market. It is an eighteen month process
Speaker 1: till I have marketable livestock. By the time I select
Speaker 1: the breeding animals, raised them, breed them, raise their offspring,
Speaker 1: it's eighteen months. And so you're you're seeing the result
Speaker 1: with higher prices here of very real struggles and very
Speaker 1: challenging times that farmers had during COVID and the reduction
Speaker 1: in the herds. And then you're also seeing a result
Speaker 1: of adonna of lack of available labor on some of
Speaker 1: these farms to rant production back up. But I it's
Speaker 1: consumers and and the rising middle class around the world
Speaker 1: will continue to have a demand for protein. That's just
Speaker 1: a fact. When consumers raise their standard of living, they
Speaker 1: want to eat better. And we've seen that time after time,
Speaker 1: And so I think there is solid underpinning of demands
Speaker 1: for protein. And I sure hope that consumers understand that
Speaker 1: farmers were doing all we can to supply the protein
Speaker 1: to them. Uh, there's just an awful lot of mitigating
Speaker 1: factors these days. Yeah, Brian I. As I said earlier,
Speaker 1: I grew up in Pennsylvania, in the suburbs of Philadelphia,
Speaker 1: and there were family farms all around me. But you know,
Speaker 1: one by one, the value of that real estate started
Speaker 1: to become so valuable. Uh. You know, as the suburban
Speaker 1: sprawl sort of spread out throughout the suburbs of Philadelphia,
Speaker 1: You're I think, what about two hours outside of Chicago.
Speaker 1: So I'm just curious. We've had this hot real estate
Speaker 1: market at least, you know, until a few months ago.
Speaker 1: The interest rates are kind of cooling it off. And
Speaker 1: you know that my senses, there's this very much a
Speaker 1: migration out of the cities into the suburbs and the exerbs.
Speaker 1: Is there any pressure market pressure on any your your
Speaker 1: fellow farmers, or at least the temptation to say, look,
Speaker 1: this is a hot time to sell this land, uh
Speaker 1: and and just retire and cash in on the value
Speaker 1: of that real state. Imagine that's always kind of attention
Speaker 1: for a farmer. Is you know, is this has my
Speaker 1: real estate, my farmland appreciated enough that you know makes
Speaker 1: sense to to to bail on it, on this farm
Speaker 1: and sell a developer. Is that an issue now? Or
Speaker 1: am I just imagining that? Like, is that is that
Speaker 1: getting to be a bigger issue for farmers that temptations
Speaker 1: to to offload their real estates. Again, very good question, Mike.
Speaker 1: And so first of all, you need to realize remember
Speaker 1: what state I live in? Yeah, Illinois, Illinois. Not a
Speaker 1: lot of people looking to move to Illinois. So well,
Speaker 1: it's it's it's reality. You know, if we were talking
Speaker 1: to a farmer in Texas or in Florida or some
Speaker 1: of the other hot growth states, that could be a
Speaker 1: bigger tension. So what we have seen, yes, there is
Speaker 1: some there is some development pressure around certain cities, but
Speaker 1: we have seen an overall rise in real estate values uh,
Speaker 1: tied to the value of commodities and low interest rates
Speaker 1: and the interest of people to invest in solid assets.
Speaker 1: You know, Bill Donna, you said earlier you you you
Speaker 1: specialize in cryptocurrencies. Well, farmland is about the opposite as
Speaker 1: much of an opposite in investment as cryptocurrent and cryptocurrency
Speaker 1: as there is. Because people like to be able to
Speaker 1: drive by and see their farm land, and so we
Speaker 1: have seen arise in interest from investors and so yes,
Speaker 1: it has caused farmland values to rise, uh. The capitalization
Speaker 1: required to farm is extraordinary, and uh arising interest rates
Speaker 1: also makes our costs higher. But but Mike your second question,
Speaker 1: the other side of that coin is when a farmer sell,
Speaker 1: If he would sell that land and cash out, then
Speaker 1: he's going to realize some pretty significant capital gains taxes.
Speaker 1: And so most farmers that I know, at least in
Speaker 1: my area, were not development pressured. We have investment pressure. Um,
Speaker 1: hold the land, try to hold it for generations, hopefully,
Speaker 1: you know they all we all hope our kids want
Speaker 1: to farm, and I'm fortunate I got three maybe four
Speaker 1: that that want to be a part of it. And
Speaker 1: so we see this as a long term play. Uh
Speaker 1: like generations. I've got a grand that was born last August.
Speaker 1: I'm already figuring out which tractor he's gonna drive in
Speaker 1: a few years. So we we tend to look at
Speaker 1: it generationally. Might not not that short term, but I
Speaker 1: know if a farmer is nearing retirement and doesn't have
Speaker 1: any kids coming on, um, yeah, I think that's probably
Speaker 1: a very real temptation. But then they're always going to
Speaker 1: look at the tax consequences and make the decision. Well,
Speaker 1: that's interesting that the value of it as farmland. It
Speaker 1: sounds like that that demand for the farmland is just
Speaker 1: as strong, uh, maybe stronger in your area than the
Speaker 1: value of development. Yeah, and it's not just the price
Speaker 1: of commodities. We see. We see some very interesting um
Speaker 1: I don't know if they're anomalies or if they're real,
Speaker 1: but there's interest in carbon sequestration and value of farmland
Speaker 1: in the whole climate battle and what what that might
Speaker 1: look like, um companies that may be buying farmland to
Speaker 1: offset their E S E S G scores. There's all
Speaker 1: sorts of dynamics here at play right now that it's
Speaker 1: kind of hard to get a handle on, right right, Well,
Speaker 1: let's unpack that a little bit. The carbon idea, that's uh,
Speaker 1: you know, for lack of a better word, of manure, right,
Speaker 1: you collect the gases coming off the manure. Well, it's
Speaker 1: it's the sequester the plants. Again, I was daydreaming about
Speaker 1: farming and high school temistry biology. That the plants capture
Speaker 1: the carbon and and and hold the carbon and then
Speaker 1: if they go into the soil and the carbon stays
Speaker 1: in the soil. That's that's that's about my third grade
Speaker 1: level of education. And so farmers can see quester or
Speaker 1: capture carbon from the air and hold it in the soil,
Speaker 1: and there is some there is some interest in that
Speaker 1: ability that companies would pay farmers, companies who are big
Speaker 1: carbon emitters would pay farmers for sequestering carbon. But there's
Speaker 1: a world of unknown's yet about that, Mike. We don't
Speaker 1: even know if you can accurately measure carbon in soil,
Speaker 1: and some of the techniques used to hold that carbon
Speaker 1: in the soil are really challenging, UH not conducive to
Speaker 1: growing crops, at least in more northern parts of colder climates.
Speaker 1: And so there's a lot of there's a lot of questions,
Speaker 1: but let's just say there's interest there about could that
Speaker 1: be another potential revenue stream for farmers and see farmers
Speaker 1: as part of the solution UH climate change. Brian and
Speaker 1: I have so many questions for you, and I apologize
Speaker 1: for jumping from topic to topic, but I do want
Speaker 1: to ask you about your crop this year because I
Speaker 1: read an interview or heard an interview of yours, a
Speaker 1: recent one where you had said you felt good about
Speaker 1: your crop this year. So can you maybe give us
Speaker 1: an update on this and in particular maybe focused on
Speaker 1: corn because we had a Bloomberg story a couple of
Speaker 1: days ago that said the US is set to have
Speaker 1: a smallest corn crop in something like three years. So, uh,
Speaker 1: maybe just give us an update in an overview of
Speaker 1: of how that's going. Yeah, sure, build, and I feel
Speaker 1: very fortunate this year we have been the benefits. Beneficiary
Speaker 1: is a very timely rainfall in northwest Illinois. We have
Speaker 1: been very dry the last two years. Yeah, but this year, Uh,
Speaker 1: we've the Good Lord smiled on us. We were horrible
Speaker 1: dry in June and I thought our crop was deteriorating
Speaker 1: before my eyes. And then the last Saturday in June,
Speaker 1: out of nowhere, we got an inch rain and then
Speaker 1: it's just been raining pretty regularly since then. And then
Speaker 1: like three weeks ago we had two three and a
Speaker 1: half inch rains in two days, and then last week
Speaker 1: of five inch rain, which that's getting a little silly,
Speaker 1: but the point being we have had plenty of moisture
Speaker 1: and our good soils. Part of the world that I'm
Speaker 1: from a northwest Illinois, Um, we don't irrigate, we rely,
Speaker 1: we rely on Mother Nature for rain and U we've
Speaker 1: been very blessed this year. I think we in my
Speaker 1: part of the world are going to have a phenomenal crop. Uh.
Speaker 1: Now there's other parts of the state. I don't have
Speaker 1: to drive very far that the rains have been fickle. Um,
Speaker 1: they may drop three quarters of an inch in one area,
Speaker 1: then go two miles away and they didn't get anything.
Speaker 1: And so there are parts and then especially as you
Speaker 1: go west in Iowa, Nebraska, they've been dry plain and
Speaker 1: simple dry and that's where the reduction and yielded um
Speaker 1: is that you're seeing in the news. Well, I'm glad
Speaker 1: to hear that the years is going well. But then
Speaker 1: maybe can you talk about next year and how how
Speaker 1: you're planning for and how supply chain issues hinder or
Speaker 1: or or make planning for the next year more difficult. Yeah, again,
Speaker 1: that's a that's a great question. Um, we need to
Speaker 1: Now we've got a decision point with our local suppliers
Speaker 1: of crop input products. We to get the best prices
Speaker 1: or to lock in so we know we have availability.
Speaker 1: We need to pay cash for them by the mid
Speaker 1: September for next year's inputs. And I was just running
Speaker 1: the numbers today before I before I came here. Um,
Speaker 1: what that would look like with the cash flow needs
Speaker 1: would be And if I think that these prices are
Speaker 1: worth locking in now, so they're significantly higher than what
Speaker 1: we locked in at this time last year, but they're
Speaker 1: down a little. Then the fertilizer prices are down a
Speaker 1: little from the spring high UM, so I think we
Speaker 1: will go ahead and plan the same basic prop rotation.
Speaker 1: I tend to plan eighty percent corn soybeans about five
Speaker 1: percent weeks. So I say, I'm from the land of corn.
Speaker 1: We grow a lot of corn in my area, and
Speaker 1: that's what that's still the economics look favorable for that.
Speaker 1: As I was looking at next year's prices, they're not
Speaker 1: as good as this year. But there's a lot of
Speaker 1: time yet to take advantage of maybe some marketing opportunities
Speaker 1: between now and then. But what I have been told is, uh,
Speaker 1: if we pay for it now, there's availability that if
Speaker 1: you don't want to pay for it, um, you're taking
Speaker 1: you're taking a risk um. And so those are those
Speaker 1: are the realities we're facing right now. And how does
Speaker 1: the rising dollar affect you? Well, it makes our exploit
Speaker 1: makes our products more expensive in the world market. Right,
Speaker 1: you know that when we're looking at exporting corn or soybeans,
Speaker 1: or pork. There's all of a sudden cheaper places to
Speaker 1: get it in the world. There's, uh, if you're China,
Speaker 1: you can you can import corn from Brazil. Um. But
Speaker 1: but I believe the reality has had some strength lately too.
Speaker 1: So rising dollar makes any puts, any export or not
Speaker 1: just agriculture at a disadvantage, you know, Brian. So I'm
Speaker 1: trying to think, you know, if if I had a uh,
Speaker 1: create a a version of the consumer Price Index the
Speaker 1: CPI and call the farmer's price index for all the
Speaker 1: input costs and all your and and you're selling costs,
Speaker 1: it strikes is it? Uh, it doesn't sound like you
Speaker 1: would expect that to be coming down anytime soon. Um.
Speaker 1: You know you're talking about locking in prices for delivery
Speaker 1: for goods next year, presumably fertilizer being the biggest. Uh.
Speaker 1: Sort of thrown in your side at the moment. But
Speaker 1: is that is that safe to say that? It doesn't
Speaker 1: quite seem like inflation is cracking or cooling off from
Speaker 1: from your perspective, given all the inputs that you have
Speaker 1: to acquire. Yeah, that's that's correct. I do not see
Speaker 1: I do not see our prices coming down anytime soon.
Speaker 1: And I know farmers are concerned that again being priced takers,
Speaker 1: that we do worry. We know that commodities tend to cycle,
Speaker 1: and and uh, we have see a good crop worldwide.
Speaker 1: The commodities that we sell, the corn, the soybeans, the pork,
Speaker 1: the beef, the milk could could go down because of
Speaker 1: of global supply, whereas I don't see an immediate allusion
Speaker 1: to some of the Remember how base fossil fuel dependent
Speaker 1: agriculture is both on the on the fuel side and
Speaker 1: on the fertilizer side. I don't see a solution. So
Speaker 1: let's just say natural gas. I do not see Europe
Speaker 1: not coming here and buying a lot of natural gas. Now,
Speaker 1: you tell me you watch the global markets more than
Speaker 1: I do. I don't see anything short of regime regime
Speaker 1: change in Russia changing the realities of the gas supply
Speaker 1: for Europe. And if Europe needs to shop for gas here,
Speaker 1: that is going to drive the cost of fertilizer up
Speaker 1: period and and I don't see that changing anytime soon. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I think that's a very student analysis of the situation.
Speaker 1: I don't either, you know, uh, some major change of
Speaker 1: of heart of Vladimir Putin. I think you're absolutely yeah,
Speaker 1: I don't. I just I just see that continuing to
Speaker 1: be difficult. We've got tariffs on right now with I mean,
Speaker 1: so Russia could be a big supplier fertilizer too, But
Speaker 1: who's doing business with Russia. Maybe the Brazilians will, maybe
Speaker 1: the Chinese will, but I don't think we will. And
Speaker 1: we've got three on one and two thirty two tariffs
Speaker 1: on with China as well on some of the base
Speaker 1: petrochemical UH products that we need on our on our
Speaker 1: plant protection products. I don't see those going away. I
Speaker 1: don't see trade with China. I mean, I think it's
Speaker 1: always gonna be tenuous, but I sure don't see a
Speaker 1: big breakthrough on trade there either. So that would lead
Speaker 1: to my pessimism on input costs for American agriculture. And
Speaker 1: like I said, Mike, if we're gonna we need more
Speaker 1: fertilizer production in this country, if you wanted to, if
Speaker 1: you could get the investors and you could find a
Speaker 1: site that would allow you to do it, and you
Speaker 1: wanted to build a plant your three or four years
Speaker 1: before you've got product to sell, that's just the realities
Speaker 1: of construction today. And so that's why I'm I'm I'm
Speaker 1: I just think we're in a higher cost baseline for agriculture,
Speaker 1: for productive especially for crop agriculture as we go forward.
Speaker 1: Fascinating stuff, Brian. I gotta say, if someone can come
Speaker 1: up with an Illinois version of that Iberico pork, leg
Speaker 1: i'm a I'm a buyer. Well, you've got to let
Speaker 1: him graze under the nut trees in Spain, I think,
Speaker 1: is why get that taste and then mike those pigs.
Speaker 1: Remember I told you eighteen months on a on a
Speaker 1: commercial production facility in the United States. I think you
Speaker 1: already stretched that out to about three years in Spain.
Speaker 1: So their production, Yeah, it may be delicious, but it's
Speaker 1: it's limited. Um, that's that's that's the real. Fair enough,
Speaker 1: I will say, I I ate enough of the domestically
Speaker 1: ground pork as well that I'm doing my my part
Speaker 1: for the for the market. Here, bacon makes everything better,
Speaker 1: even salad Bilda excellent stuff, right, I think. Um, we've
Speaker 1: got just a few minutes left, so hopefully they warned
Speaker 1: you about our little gimmick. Here. The craziest thing we
Speaker 1: saw in markets this week. I'm dying to hear what
Speaker 1: yours is. But let's get started with yours, what's the
Speaker 1: craziest thing you've seen this week? So I know you
Speaker 1: love to make fun of me for living in New York.
Speaker 1: So my craziest thing actually is about living in New York.
Speaker 1: So New York City, the Sublima story continues to be
Speaker 1: the priceiest place to be a tenant and the media,
Speaker 1: and one bedroom rent is up forty percent year over year.
Speaker 1: Two bedroom apartments are up forty seven and Manhattan is
Speaker 1: the worst. Monthly rent has climbed to four thousand, two
Speaker 1: hundred and twelve dollars, up from last year. That's the average. Yes,
Speaker 1: that is tremendous. I wonder if it it uh maybe
Speaker 1: it dips during COVID and it's catching back up. I
Speaker 1: don't know, I wonder if that's I think it dipped
Speaker 1: in the beginning, and now everything is just surging. And
Speaker 1: you hear these stories of people waiting like two or
Speaker 1: three hours just to go and see an apartment before
Speaker 1: they can even try to sign up for one. Everyone
Speaker 1: bailed out on the city and now they're getting called
Speaker 1: back to work and they have to find a place. Yeah,
Speaker 1: but that's crazy. That is nuts, and that rent component
Speaker 1: and you know, if you want to talk about CPI.
Speaker 1: That rent component is one of the one of the
Speaker 1: biggest components. Well, Brian, how about you. Have you seen
Speaker 1: anything crazy in your world last week or so on?
Speaker 1: Price my nitrogen for next year, next year's corn crop,
Speaker 1: and it is up sixty five what I priced it
Speaker 1: at for this year's crop, so six price increase. And
Speaker 1: and Mike, if you want to pull up your Chicago
Speaker 1: Board of Trade prices and lookout into next December, corn
Speaker 1: is worth less than it is right now. But yet
Speaker 1: we're dealing with price increase for the base fertilizer we
Speaker 1: need to grow corn. Wow, and that is Does that
Speaker 1: all sort of relate back to the natural gas per
Speaker 1: that's a that's a big world world demand, natural gas
Speaker 1: supply chain, transportation. Uh, all sorts of disruptions, Yes, yes,
Speaker 1: and yes it's all the headlines are hitting you at once.
Speaker 1: It sounds like that. Well, we wish you the best luck, Brian.
Speaker 1: Uh and fascinating conversation. Um, you really sew yourself sure,
Speaker 1: you're you're you could be teaching an economics class, not
Speaker 1: just a finance class. So we really appreciate your time.
Speaker 1: Let me hit you with my crazy thing before we leave.
Speaker 1: Uh we do A one thing that caused inflation, uh,
Speaker 1: or one of the issues causing inflation that a lot
Speaker 1: of people were focused on was used car prices. I've
Speaker 1: got a ridiculous price for a used car. Here. It's
Speaker 1: a nineteen five ford Escort Uh. Recently went up for auction. Uh.
Speaker 1: The trick here is that it was owned by Princess Diana.
Speaker 1: That's that's a small ash tricks small So it was that.
Speaker 1: I'm amazing to think that the Princess of England was
Speaker 1: driving around in a ford Escort back in the day,
Speaker 1: but that that's what they had her and I guess
Speaker 1: they wanted her to look like you can be incognito
Speaker 1: in it. Yeah, yeah, So in nineteen five ford Escort
Speaker 1: RS turbo. Um. And I don't know if you remember
Speaker 1: the eighties enough to remember the ford Escort not exactly
Speaker 1: a luxury car. Let's just say this, uh sold new
Speaker 1: in for eight hundred pounds, so about ten less than
Speaker 1: ten thousand that today's exchange rate. So it's not a
Speaker 1: time to play the prices precise is what do you
Speaker 1: think Princess Diana's five ford Escort RS turbo sold for
Speaker 1: at auction? Okay? You always, I do so poorly with
Speaker 1: the with the car once, I'm gonna go with two
Speaker 1: hundred and fifty thousand pounds two d and fifty thousand pounds, okay,
Speaker 1: so that would be was a little less than three
Speaker 1: hundred thousand US something like that. All right, Brian, time
Speaker 1: time for you to claim victory over Vildanna here in
Speaker 1: our little game show. What do you what do you
Speaker 1: think the price was at auction for Princess Diana's ford Escort?
Speaker 1: Three quarters of a million? Oh my god, this guy
Speaker 1: is good. Well what did what did a stand musual
Speaker 1: rookie card sew for the other day? Well? North of
Speaker 1: a million til the car is gonna be Yeah, the
Speaker 1: the mickey Mickey man, it was like ten million or
Speaker 1: something like that. Seven hundred and sixty four thousand dollars.
Speaker 1: Brian was basically a rounding error off in his guests.
Speaker 1: That's very very that's really good. Well, I was I
Speaker 1: was gonna guess two millions, so I guess. I'm glad
Speaker 1: I didn't go with my first guess. Still, three quarters
Speaker 1: of a million dollars for eighty five ford escort. It's
Speaker 1: it's a crazy world out there. I don't know, but
Speaker 1: is a car still functioning? You know, I believe it is.
Speaker 1: I'd have to read the whole story. And this is
Speaker 1: courtesy the Washington Post. And and if it was a sport,
Speaker 1: it had a four speed, you know, it had a
Speaker 1: manual transmission had to be so that makes it worth
Speaker 1: more too, just on the fun factor. That fun failure, Well,
Speaker 1: good luck finding someone who knows how to drive one
Speaker 1: of those. These days. I think you and me might
Speaker 1: be among the only ones left who uh, you can
Speaker 1: drive a stick. I haven't driven a stick, I don't
Speaker 1: think in this century. So i'd probably burn out a
Speaker 1: clutch or two on that trying to remember how to
Speaker 1: drive drive a manual. But Brian, good stuff. If you
Speaker 1: ever give up the farming career, I think you could
Speaker 1: get a job as an appraiser of crazy collectibles because
Speaker 1: you now that. Well it's been it's been nice getting
Speaker 1: to know both of you. Thank you for this opportunity.
Speaker 1: I've certainly enjoyed it, and maybe we can do it
Speaker 1: again sometime. I would love that. Brian, thank you, thank
Speaker 1: you for joining us. What goes up, we'll be back
Speaker 1: next week and so then you can find us on
Speaker 1: the Bloomberg terminal website and app, or wherever you get
Speaker 1: your podcasts. We love it if you took the time
Speaker 1: to rate and review the show on Apple Podcasts so
Speaker 1: more listeners can find us. And you can find us
Speaker 1: on Twitter. Follow me at reag Anonymous. Bill Donna Hirich
Speaker 1: is at Bildonna Hirach. You can also follow Bloomberg Podcasts
Speaker 1: at podcasts. What Goes Up is produced by Stacy Wong.
Speaker 1: The head of Bloomberg podcast is francesco Leavie. Thanks for listening.
Speaker 1: To see you next time.