WEBVTT - Grindr CEO Talks AI Features and Politics

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<v Speaker 1>Bloomberg Audio Studios, podcasts, radio news Look. It's June Pride

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<v Speaker 1>month here in New York and around the world, and

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<v Speaker 1>Grinder is the world's largest network for LGBTQ people. The

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<v Speaker 1>app is now evolving into what it's calling a global

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<v Speaker 1>Gaghborhood Integrating AI, or as the CEO calls it, gay

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<v Speaker 1>I that's right, and looking into expanding its product line

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<v Speaker 1>beyond just the dating app.

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<v Speaker 2>Well that includes live events like a pop up concert

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<v Speaker 2>with Madonna took place Thursday night in Times Square and

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<v Speaker 2>the past year, Grinder's revenue is up thirty eight percent,

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<v Speaker 2>while at share prices dropped by half for c Sweet Saturday.

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<v Speaker 2>We spoke to CEO George Arson, But the future of

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<v Speaker 2>the company.

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<v Speaker 3>I can't control what the stock does. The stock's going

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<v Speaker 3>to do its own thing, and I think that over

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<v Speaker 3>the long term the market is pretty efficient. Over the

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<v Speaker 3>short term, it's not sometimes, and I think Grinder does

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<v Speaker 3>have some complexity for people to understand. But we do

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<v Speaker 3>have an incredible business. I mean, the company's grown twenty

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<v Speaker 3>five plus sent every year over the last four years

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<v Speaker 3>since I've been around, even longer, it's been growing at

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<v Speaker 3>that pace or higher. But it has also been getting better.

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<v Speaker 3>We did more ybit last year than we did revenue

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<v Speaker 3>in twenty twenty two, which I think that's the number

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<v Speaker 3>I really like, and it's going to continue going up.

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<v Speaker 3>And I don't see anything that in the next three

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<v Speaker 3>four years is going to slow us down. Like we

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<v Speaker 3>have a very strong plan and execution is really really strong.

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<v Speaker 3>The team, you know, is doing everything that needs to

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<v Speaker 3>be done to make the business work really well. So

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<v Speaker 3>I think my job from the investor perspectives to keep

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<v Speaker 3>beating with people and telling them our story, and I

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<v Speaker 3>think over time it'll take care of itself. You know,

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<v Speaker 3>we had some challenging things happen last fall when one

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<v Speaker 3>of our shaholders had issues with his pledge shares and

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<v Speaker 3>that led to a squeeze on him and resulted with

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<v Speaker 3>shippers coming down quite a bit. So I think there's

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<v Speaker 3>some recovery that needs to happen from that, and that

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<v Speaker 3>does take time. I mean it's only been three quarters,

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<v Speaker 3>so we'll we'll keep kind of plugging along. And what

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<v Speaker 3>I do tell the team is to not focus on

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<v Speaker 3>the share price because that'll be distracting. We should focus

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<v Speaker 3>on execution, and ultimately the market is pretty Ushient.

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<v Speaker 1>You did a story last year and you found that

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<v Speaker 1>one in three gay relationships started on Grinder. And that's

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<v Speaker 1>been kind of an evolution because I think when I

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<v Speaker 1>first started learning about it was a sort of as

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<v Speaker 1>a hookup app. But now several, actually most of my

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<v Speaker 1>friends who've gotten married in that community met on Grinder.

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<v Speaker 1>What does that do to your business model and how

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<v Speaker 1>is the dynamics of what people using the app for change?

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, the action number is fifty percent, so it's even high.

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<v Speaker 3>Ooh okay, yeah, it's pretty it's pretty incredible.

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<v Speaker 1>Every wedding I've been to, it's how did jimmy Grinder

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<v Speaker 1>from me?

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<v Speaker 3>One of the most cool kind of moments when I

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<v Speaker 3>was just getting start actually wasn't Coeo yet, but I

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<v Speaker 3>was doing the road show for us going public and

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<v Speaker 3>we met with this one investor and he's like, let

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<v Speaker 3>me show you this picture, and he pulls out his

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<v Speaker 3>picture from his brother's wedding where the brother and his

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<v Speaker 3>husband had met on Grinder and they had this like

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<v Speaker 3>little Grinder logo where you could take a photo in

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<v Speaker 3>for every guest the wedding. Yeah, so people decided and

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<v Speaker 3>I'm like, goll thisek is going to probably go well

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<v Speaker 3>because I don't have to like explain to him what

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<v Speaker 3>we do. I think. Look in the gay world, in

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<v Speaker 3>gay culture, things are pretty fluid, right, so casual, they

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<v Speaker 3>eate sort hookups leading to long term relationship is actually

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<v Speaker 3>very common. Internally. We tend to joke that if you know,

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<v Speaker 3>a gay couple hooks up three times and then doesn't

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<v Speaker 3>go in a date, probably will never go to date,

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<v Speaker 3>whereas a straight couple, if it doesn't go in three

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<v Speaker 3>days prior to a hookup, that relationship probably won't.

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<v Speaker 1>It's just a different three date rule.

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<v Speaker 3>So it so it's you know, that's just how the

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<v Speaker 3>culture is. But the reality is that a lot more

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<v Speaker 3>gay men today want to be in long term relationships

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<v Speaker 3>than was the case that when I was in my twenties,

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<v Speaker 3>and you know Andrew Sullivan, who was probably one of

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<v Speaker 3>the primary architects of the case for gay marriage over

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<v Speaker 3>the years, you know, he would make this argument that

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<v Speaker 3>if we allow gay marriage, then gay men will move

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<v Speaker 3>more in the direction of what street people do, which

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<v Speaker 3>is getting married and having stable, long term relationships. And

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<v Speaker 3>I think that's very much happening because if you survey

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<v Speaker 3>men under thirty five, you know over half of them

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<v Speaker 3>say that they want to be in a long term relationship,

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<v Speaker 3>and a quarter of them say they want to have children.

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<v Speaker 3>So I have kids. I've always wanted kids, But when

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<v Speaker 3>I would say that I wanted kids in my twenties,

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<v Speaker 3>I was literally like the artism all out WI one hundred.

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<v Speaker 3>So society is changing dramatically in part because of the

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<v Speaker 3>recognition of marriage, and that's really positive. And obviously Grinderer

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<v Speaker 3>is in an awesome place to help with that because

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<v Speaker 3>that is where people meet, and we have the critical

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<v Speaker 3>mass of people to meet each other.

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<v Speaker 1>We want to ask you about AI and I understand you.

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<v Speaker 1>You know you something you've coined gay I through the app.

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<v Speaker 2>I see what you did there, all right, tell us.

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<v Speaker 1>What it is, how it works, and if it's been

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<v Speaker 1>worth the investment, because one of the things we're looking at,

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<v Speaker 1>especially right now is the ROI on these AI investments

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<v Speaker 1>and whether or not they're the juices worth the squeeze

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<v Speaker 1>for some of these things.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, I so we we've been way ahead of the

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<v Speaker 3>curve on AI. I had built an AI company in

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<v Speaker 3>twenty eighteen, not on gen Ai because Genai models were

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<v Speaker 3>out back then, but having done that, and that company

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<v Speaker 3>has done very well and was very good for everybody involved.

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<v Speaker 3>I knew that AI was going to be huge four

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<v Speaker 3>Grinder because we have so much data and that creates

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<v Speaker 3>unique opportunities. So we both have invested a ton into

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<v Speaker 3>building AI products for users and those are going really

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<v Speaker 3>well where you know, have a lot of them are

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<v Speaker 3>already out in the product and the feedback from users

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<v Speaker 3>very positive. We're building a new AI tier which is

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<v Speaker 3>a more premium tier that is powered with GAI that

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<v Speaker 3>it will he's already in beta with a bunch of

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<v Speaker 3>users and will be live towards What does it do?

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<v Speaker 1>It is just really hypertailor do you give zero.

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<v Speaker 3>A lot more information about people you're talking to and

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<v Speaker 3>creates transparency for both parties about why that connection might

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<v Speaker 3>make sense. Then we've also done a ton of investment

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<v Speaker 3>in how we work and grinders really like I actually

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<v Speaker 3>call it terraforming, not transforming, because the change is so massive.

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<v Speaker 3>Engineering team, you know, started adopting AI coding much earlier

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<v Speaker 3>than most people, and today eighty percent of the code

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<v Speaker 3>that's written a grinder is not written by humans and

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<v Speaker 3>the engineer. It's all AA generated and engineer's job is

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<v Speaker 3>fundamentally changing. It's no longer writing code, it's actually architecting

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<v Speaker 3>the code and managing synthetics that are writing the code.

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<v Speaker 3>So every engineering new is becoming an engineering manager. In effect,

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<v Speaker 3>organizations are going to become flatter as a result overall.

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<v Speaker 3>And you know, in March, when we were planning for

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<v Speaker 3>Q two, each team came to the planning meeting and

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<v Speaker 3>said that they don't have enough work and we need

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<v Speaker 3>more projects. I've been building software for twenty years and

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<v Speaker 3>I've never had anything like that happen to me. And

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<v Speaker 3>don't get me wrong, like our team works extremely hard.

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<v Speaker 3>We're very hardcore culture. We're not like SpaceX, but in

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<v Speaker 3>the layer of where do you fall in the hardcore,

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<v Speaker 3>we're very much closer to SpaceX than we are to

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<v Speaker 3>an average company. So these are not people who are

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<v Speaker 3>not working so hard. But we still had like more

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<v Speaker 3>capacity because of what AI is doing to how productive

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<v Speaker 3>we are. I don't care how much money we spent

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<v Speaker 3>on tokens, honestly, because every dollar that's spent on tokens

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<v Speaker 3>is way more output than you'd ever expect. I think

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<v Speaker 3>companies that are worried about the spending are actually not

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<v Speaker 3>well managed, because then probably people are running around doing

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<v Speaker 3>things that don't need to us to be done. But

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<v Speaker 3>I don't want to give numbers out because these were

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<v Speaker 3>companition numbers that were shared with me. But one of

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<v Speaker 3>the very large tech companies that recently was in the

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<v Speaker 3>press a lot being worried about, you know, token spend.

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<v Speaker 3>I did a rough I heard what the total number

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<v Speaker 3>of that concern was, and by on our order as

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<v Speaker 3>a magnitude basis, like they were saying twenty k per engineer,

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<v Speaker 3>and we are roughly running like fifty k per engineer

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<v Speaker 3>in token usage. But I'm happy if that became one

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<v Speaker 3>hundred well, because I know for a fact already that

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<v Speaker 3>what we're getting on the other side is way more

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<v Speaker 3>valuable than that.

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<v Speaker 2>So let me ask you lastly just about out politics,

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<v Speaker 2>and I'll confess we were both in Washington for the

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<v Speaker 2>White House Correspondent Association dinner and alas, neither of us

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<v Speaker 2>got the invite to the party that you threw, and

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<v Speaker 2>we'll run up to that. But it was a popular party,

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<v Speaker 2>and I think popular because there were so many people

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<v Speaker 2>there from both sides of the aisle, attracted a broadswath

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<v Speaker 2>of people. How do you view engagement with politics with Washington.

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<v Speaker 2>The job of any CEO in this day and age

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<v Speaker 2>is to make that part of the role. You have

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<v Speaker 2>to engage with regulators, with lawmakers.

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<v Speaker 3>So about six months into me studying my job, I

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<v Speaker 3>get this note from the person who was leading Grinder

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<v Speaker 3>for Quality, which is that our public service arm. I'm

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<v Speaker 3>telling me that this horrible situation is developing in Egypt

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<v Speaker 3>where Egyptian police is arresting gay men and then using

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<v Speaker 3>their phones to honeytrap up our gay men. And I'm like, Okay,

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<v Speaker 3>who in DC do we call? Because I know America

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<v Speaker 3>has a lot of influence around what happened, and we

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<v Speaker 3>didn't have a single person to contact because we had

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<v Speaker 3>zero relationship in Washington, which I thought was kind of

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<v Speaker 3>totally unacceptable. And then secondly, it felt to me like

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<v Speaker 3>a lot of the groups that should be advocating on

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<v Speaker 3>behalf of Kate rights and do we're becoming very partisan.

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<v Speaker 3>And I'm of opinion that you canot accomplish stuff in

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<v Speaker 3>DC no matter who's in power, unless you're bipartisan, because

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<v Speaker 3>it takes sixty of us to get anything in the Senate.

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<v Speaker 3>But also for things to stick around, you need both

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<v Speaker 3>sides to be brought into it, and I felt like

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<v Speaker 3>we were uniquely positioned to be able to do it

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<v Speaker 3>because we are a business and we can talk to

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<v Speaker 3>both sides of the aisle, and that's what we've been

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<v Speaker 3>striving to do, and so far we've been very, very happy.

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<v Speaker 3>There are specific things we care about. Decriminalization of homosexuality

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<v Speaker 3>in certain countries where it's illegal, marriage equality, access to

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<v Speaker 3>fertility treatment for gay couples in the US at the

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<v Speaker 3>same in the same way that it's available to others.

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<v Speaker 3>And then access to STD preventative and treatment medications and services,

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<v Speaker 3>which matters to all our users. This is not an

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<v Speaker 3>issue that's like sixty forty Young Grinder. It's in most

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<v Speaker 3>of these issues that are like ninety ten or one

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<v Speaker 3>hundred and zero, and we can make massive headways on

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<v Speaker 3>those if we bring people together to advocate for them.

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<v Speaker 1>Do you think, given your background, you're in a good

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<v Speaker 1>position to try to talk about these issues to a

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<v Speaker 1>more conservative leaning government. I mean, you know, you grew

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<v Speaker 1>up in what was then the USSR is now Georgia.

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<v Speaker 1>That's not a place that's very friendly towards alternative lifestyles.

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<v Speaker 1>Does that give you a way to talk about this

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<v Speaker 1>to people who may have a knee jerk. No, but

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<v Speaker 1>when you talk to them about the human rights aspects

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<v Speaker 1>of it and how it can benefit society as a whole,

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<v Speaker 1>they're more able to have that conversation.

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<v Speaker 3>It certainly helps me better appreciate the challenges that our

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<v Speaker 3>users face in countries like that. I mean, one of

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<v Speaker 3>my first board meetings at Grinder, we were discussing whether

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<v Speaker 3>to enable Grinder and URAN or not, and this was

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<v Speaker 3>like something we had shut down because of your sanctions,

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<v Speaker 3>And we're getting messages from local activists and users saying

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<v Speaker 3>we would prefer for you to be on and take

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<v Speaker 3>the risk of being caught by the government that we

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<v Speaker 3>use in Grinder to not having a way to connect

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<v Speaker 3>with each other because there's no other way to do.

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<v Speaker 1>That's because the risk of having that on your phone

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<v Speaker 1>is really substantial.

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<v Speaker 3>Mass. Yeah, so I'm like you, I'm not a normal

0:10:57.160 --> 0:10:59.280
<v Speaker 3>board discussion of like what you're going to be dealing with.

0:10:59.440 --> 0:11:02.000
<v Speaker 3>Remember going to see the Sectory of Labor about a

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<v Speaker 3>year ago or nine months ago, and we were talking about, hey,

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<v Speaker 3>we want to make sure that if we do things

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<v Speaker 3>on IVF, we should that should be extendable to gay couples,

0:11:12.120 --> 0:11:14.640
<v Speaker 3>because gay couples are not actually re seeking the treatment themselves.

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<v Speaker 3>It's usually survey that the spreceiving treatment, and then like

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<v Speaker 3>you should be able to transfer that service on. And

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<v Speaker 3>her response to me back then was, like the President

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<v Speaker 3>said all families, that includes gay families, and like some

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<v Speaker 3>people might not expect that from this administration. I'm like,

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<v Speaker 3>there's no question about that. And that's actually the kind

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<v Speaker 3>of rule that they issued on IVF and insurance you

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<v Speaker 3>know earlier, this queer too. So that was a really

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<v Speaker 3>good meeting on our end and a very good outcome

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<v Speaker 3>for everyone. And so I think people are generally very

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<v Speaker 3>willing to listen. And that's not to say that there's

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<v Speaker 3>obviously a huge number of people in a Democratic party

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<v Speaker 3>who've been massive champions of gay rights, and they have

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<v Speaker 3>been great at engagement with us, and obviously it's really

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<v Speaker 3>imperative for us to be working very closely with them

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<v Speaker 3>and ensuring that they have the right information to be

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<v Speaker 3>able to do the incredible work that they do on

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<v Speaker 3>behalf of all Grander users