WEBVTT - Anthony Fauci Could Use a Day Off 0:00:04.559 --> 0:00:07.600 I'm Alec Baldwin and you're listening to Here's the Thing 0:00:07.680 --> 0:00:11.680 from my Heart Radio. This is my conversation with Dr 0:00:11.760 --> 0:00:17.040 Anthony Fauci. Well, we're very grateful for the time you've 0:00:17.079 --> 0:00:19.680 given us. The first question that I have for you 0:00:19.800 --> 0:00:23.239 is about the Texas border and the Haitian immigrants. What 0:00:23.320 --> 0:00:25.680 do you think about immigration in the time of COVID. 0:00:25.680 --> 0:00:27.639 What do you think about twelve thou people trying to 0:00:27.640 --> 0:00:30.800 come into this country. It's assumed that they're unvaccinated. Correct, 0:00:31.480 --> 0:00:34.879 you know, my making any comment about that. You know, 0:00:34.960 --> 0:00:38.400 everything I say gets ripped off. Try by far right 0:00:38.479 --> 0:00:41.479 people and get on me into the usual nonsense. I 0:00:41.680 --> 0:00:46.800 am somebody who does favor immigration. My family, my grandfather 0:00:46.920 --> 0:00:51.200 and grand mothers on both sides were immigrants. So I mean, 0:00:51.280 --> 0:00:53.360 I think that what we need to do is do 0:00:53.440 --> 0:00:56.880 whatever we can to treat them fairly, to get them 0:00:56.920 --> 0:00:59.920 the right medical care, and to get them vaccinated if possible. 0:01:00.200 --> 0:01:02.840 Is that a goal to get them vaccinated? I would hope, so, 0:01:03.200 --> 0:01:06.880 I mean, but no, that's not my per view at all, 0:01:06.959 --> 0:01:09.120 but I would think that that would be important. Right. 0:01:10.000 --> 0:01:12.559 You see a lot recently on CNN dot com about 0:01:12.600 --> 0:01:17.080 anti virals here's the pill. They said that maybe maybe 0:01:17.120 --> 0:01:19.200 we can get back to normal. What do you think 0:01:19.200 --> 0:01:21.720 the hope is for anti virals in the coming months. Well, 0:01:21.760 --> 0:01:24.360 I think not only is it a hope, Alec, I 0:01:24.360 --> 0:01:29.200 think it really is a necessity because the primary countermeasure 0:01:29.959 --> 0:01:34.319 for a respiratory born viral illness is always vaccine to 0:01:34.480 --> 0:01:39.200 prevent it, particularly when it has an acute nature to it. However, 0:01:39.319 --> 0:01:42.400 it is very clear that even with a vaccine that's 0:01:42.480 --> 0:01:46.759 highly effective, that no vaccine is perfect. So there are 0:01:46.760 --> 0:01:50.000 two ways that you can use an anti viral. You 0:01:50.040 --> 0:01:53.800 can use it to treat someone who has already been infected, 0:01:54.160 --> 0:01:57.720 to prevent them to progress their disease to the point 0:01:58.360 --> 0:02:01.920 of requiring hospital is nation. The thing that you heard 0:02:01.960 --> 0:02:06.600 about the other day was what Belief Fiser was saying. 0:02:07.320 --> 0:02:10.840 They are developing a anti viral they would use for 0:02:10.919 --> 0:02:15.000 what's called pre exposure prophylaxis, which means that if you 0:02:15.040 --> 0:02:18.680 are in a family setting where a member has the 0:02:18.760 --> 0:02:24.320 virus and inadvertently exposed you, rather than waiting to see 0:02:24.760 --> 0:02:28.720 if you are infected. It was very similar, ALEC, to 0:02:28.800 --> 0:02:32.560 the pre exposure profylaxis that we've developed for HIV, where 0:02:32.560 --> 0:02:35.880 you have people who are in a risk situation that 0:02:35.960 --> 0:02:39.520 they could take something that normally would be a therapy, 0:02:39.560 --> 0:02:43.560 but they're taking it as a pre exposure prophylaxis. That's 0:02:43.600 --> 0:02:46.480 what Fiser was talking about the other day. Now, obviously 0:02:46.680 --> 0:02:51.760 you are very famous and have been for previous pandemics, 0:02:51.800 --> 0:02:53.600 and in the nine eighties you were one of the 0:02:53.600 --> 0:02:56.000 people that led the charge against HIV here in the 0:02:56.040 --> 0:02:59.080 United States, and you made a statement or a comment 0:02:59.160 --> 0:03:01.200 that I thought was very compelling where you said those 0:03:01.240 --> 0:03:03.840 people back then were fighting for their lives, not to 0:03:03.919 --> 0:03:07.080 defend a conspiracy theory like we often see now. How 0:03:07.120 --> 0:03:11.679 would you compare and contrast the response you've gotten. Is 0:03:11.720 --> 0:03:14.120 it the same? Because I know that you were attacked 0:03:14.160 --> 0:03:17.520 a lot, and then Larry Kramer came around and heroicized you, 0:03:17.639 --> 0:03:19.680 and you were given the Congressional meta and freedom and 0:03:19.720 --> 0:03:21.960 so forth. It was very difficult for you in the 0:03:22.000 --> 0:03:25.200 beginning of the HIV cristis correct. It was, but it 0:03:25.240 --> 0:03:29.560 bettered me. It made me a better person. The criticism 0:03:29.840 --> 0:03:35.480 was to catch my attention. They were iconoclastic, theatrical, confrontative. 0:03:36.240 --> 0:03:39.200 But what they were saying is that this is a 0:03:39.240 --> 0:03:42.920 new paradigm that we were going through the tried and 0:03:43.000 --> 0:03:48.920 true slow science, slow clinical trials, slow regulatory approval. And 0:03:48.920 --> 0:03:50.800 they was saying, we have a disease that by the 0:03:50.840 --> 0:03:54.240 time you realize what we have is that we don't 0:03:54.240 --> 0:03:57.080 have a lot more time to live. So you've got 0:03:57.080 --> 0:04:01.640 to get us involved in the clinical I'll design. You've 0:04:01.640 --> 0:04:04.360 got to get the FDA to be more attentive. Since 0:04:04.480 --> 0:04:10.640 I was an openly involved federal employee, I became the 0:04:10.680 --> 0:04:14.760 face of the federal government, so they attacked me to 0:04:14.880 --> 0:04:17.880 gain my attention. Probably one of the best things I've 0:04:17.880 --> 0:04:21.400 ever done in my life, ALEC was to put myself 0:04:21.440 --> 0:04:23.960 in their shoes and say, well, wait a minute. These 0:04:24.000 --> 0:04:29.640 are people, young men, usually young gay men, who are suffering. 0:04:29.800 --> 0:04:34.160 They were pain, they were afraid for themselves and and 0:04:34.360 --> 0:04:37.040 for their loved ones. So I said, let me put 0:04:37.080 --> 0:04:41.120 myself in their shoes. And when I did, it was 0:04:41.160 --> 0:04:44.760 a revelation. I said, I would be doing exactly what 0:04:44.800 --> 0:04:49.440 they're doing without a doubt. So that's when I extended 0:04:49.480 --> 0:04:54.159 myself to them, and we forged a growing relationship that 0:04:54.360 --> 0:04:58.239 wasn't all rosy even after I reached out, but over 0:04:58.279 --> 0:05:04.599 the years they became extraordinary value added to our effort 0:05:05.400 --> 0:05:07.600 So that's what I meant when I said it was 0:05:07.680 --> 0:05:13.080 something that was a productive confrontation that got our attention 0:05:13.640 --> 0:05:16.920 and said, please listen to what we have to say, 0:05:16.960 --> 0:05:22.279 and when we did, we got better at our jobs. Now, 0:05:22.400 --> 0:05:25.640 as I recall, the bell in terms of the AIDS 0:05:25.680 --> 0:05:29.599 crisis was wrung around one and that's forty years ago. 0:05:29.680 --> 0:05:32.760 So to refresh the memories of those people listening who 0:05:32.800 --> 0:05:36.760 aren't necessarily completely familiar with the history of the AIDS crisis, 0:05:37.000 --> 0:05:39.159 what was the turning point in your mind that helped 0:05:39.200 --> 0:05:42.560 you to start to, if not find a cure for 0:05:42.640 --> 0:05:46.599 AIDS and help to manage the disease. Well, I got 0:05:46.640 --> 0:05:51.360 involved as a physician taking care of desperately ill patients, 0:05:51.440 --> 0:05:54.200 because by the time they knew there was something wrong, 0:05:55.040 --> 0:05:58.960 they were desperately ill. So the first five patients that 0:05:59.160 --> 0:06:04.080 presented from Los Angeles with this strange pneumonia probably had 0:06:04.120 --> 0:06:06.599 been infected for years and did not even know it. 0:06:07.279 --> 0:06:10.640 So when I saw that first report, I thought it 0:06:10.720 --> 0:06:12.880 was a fluke and that it would go away. And 0:06:12.880 --> 0:06:17.520 then one month later in July, the first report was 0:06:17.560 --> 0:06:21.400 in June, there was now not five gay men from 0:06:21.560 --> 0:06:26.159 l A, but there were twenty six men curiously all gay, like, 0:06:26.320 --> 0:06:29.560 where does that happen? All gay men? Not only from 0:06:29.720 --> 0:06:32.080 l A but from San Francisco and New York. And 0:06:32.120 --> 0:06:35.320 it was at that point, Alec, that I made a 0:06:35.360 --> 0:06:37.919 decision which, again among the decisions that I made that 0:06:37.960 --> 0:06:40.640 were good decisions, I decided I was going to put 0:06:40.680 --> 0:06:43.800 aside the things I was doing, which I was very 0:06:43.839 --> 0:06:49.600 successful at, and start studying these young gay men who 0:06:49.600 --> 0:06:52.920 were coming down with this devastating disease. And the first 0:06:53.440 --> 0:06:56.960 few years of that were really the dark years of 0:06:57.000 --> 0:07:00.240 my life and my professional career, because everybody that we 0:07:00.279 --> 0:07:03.760 took care of died and it was eerie and painful. 0:07:03.880 --> 0:07:08.440 But the thing that kept us through it is realizing 0:07:08.480 --> 0:07:11.560 the courage and the resilience of these young men who 0:07:11.560 --> 0:07:14.640 were being attacked by a disease that barely had a name. 0:07:14.680 --> 0:07:16.960 We used to call it GRID back then Gay related 0:07:17.000 --> 0:07:19.960 him into deficiency, and we certainly didn't know what it was. 0:07:20.360 --> 0:07:26.760 The big breakthrough came in four when the virus was discovered, 0:07:26.880 --> 0:07:30.760 so now we knew who the enemy was. Before it 0:07:30.800 --> 0:07:34.800 was like just pain of putting band aids on hemorrhages 0:07:34.840 --> 0:07:36.880 and you didn't know what the cause of leading was. 0:07:37.400 --> 0:07:40.240 That you were with N I A I D. Then yes, 0:07:40.320 --> 0:07:45.160 I was. I was a a senior attending physician at 0:07:45.200 --> 0:07:49.360 the time doing research on the immune system and this 0:07:49.520 --> 0:07:53.880 relationship to infectious diseases. So when this disease came along, 0:07:53.920 --> 0:07:55.640 I said, oh, my goodness. If ever there was a 0:07:55.680 --> 0:07:59.120 disease for which I was trained as an immunologist and 0:07:59.160 --> 0:08:02.120 as an effectious disease person, this was it. So that 0:08:02.280 --> 0:08:07.440 came in four. The thing that was a dark Oh 0:08:07.440 --> 0:08:11.360 my god, like I got hit by a truck. Was five. 0:08:12.400 --> 0:08:16.960 When what happened was we did the diagnostic test and 0:08:17.000 --> 0:08:19.320 we found that the people that we were taking care 0:08:19.360 --> 0:08:22.640 of who was sick, We're just the tip of the iceberg, 0:08:23.120 --> 0:08:27.480 because when we started to test people in Los Angeles, 0:08:27.720 --> 0:08:31.280 in the Castro district of San Francisco, in Greenwich Village, 0:08:31.920 --> 0:08:37.240 we found out, to our horror that like the game men, 0:08:37.280 --> 0:08:42.280 were infected, and that was inconceivable, that they were already 0:08:42.320 --> 0:08:46.000 infected with the disease that I had spent the last 0:08:46.080 --> 0:08:51.040 three years watching people die from. So the next landmark 0:08:51.120 --> 0:08:53.880 would be, Okay, so now you've got the virus. So 0:08:54.000 --> 0:08:57.359 now you know who's infected, you gotta get a therapy 0:08:57.480 --> 0:09:00.680 and that's when all of the incredible work went into 0:09:00.720 --> 0:09:05.160 developing anti virals in an incremental way. First with a 0:09:05.280 --> 0:09:08.000 z T which helped got them a little better, but 0:09:08.040 --> 0:09:11.920 then they went down again. Then two drugs did pretty well, 0:09:12.480 --> 0:09:17.120 and then the breakthrough when the triple combination which was 0:09:17.160 --> 0:09:21.200 initiated with the protease inhibitors. But what since Now we 0:09:21.320 --> 0:09:24.840 have much much, much better drugs in the sense that 0:09:24.960 --> 0:09:29.480 we now went from my watching in an incredible painful 0:09:29.520 --> 0:09:32.440 way every one of my patients, with few exceptions, die 0:09:34.200 --> 0:09:37.360 eight two, eighty three, eighty four, eighty five two. Now 0:09:38.200 --> 0:09:41.200 that we hardly have any patients as in patients. They're 0:09:41.200 --> 0:09:45.720 all out patients. They're all leading essentially normal lives with 0:09:46.040 --> 0:09:49.800 maybe a couple of years of life expectancy clipped off. 0:09:50.440 --> 0:09:54.520 But now they're living vibrant, contributory lives. So that's the 0:09:54.600 --> 0:09:59.760 long journey of forty years. Now similar, I mean no 0:10:00.000 --> 0:10:02.200 out different as far as you're consumed as a physician 0:10:02.200 --> 0:10:05.280 and a scientist, But to me similar in a way, 0:10:05.320 --> 0:10:09.040 which is did we ever find out the cause of AIDS? 0:10:09.080 --> 0:10:12.079 Just as the question becomes do we need to continue 0:10:12.120 --> 0:10:14.720 to find the cause of COVID because it seems to 0:10:14.720 --> 0:10:17.800 have dropped off the national conversation here as to what 0:10:18.000 --> 0:10:19.720 caused us in order for us to learn how we 0:10:19.720 --> 0:10:22.400 can prevent it from happening again. I presume, yeah, sure 0:10:22.480 --> 0:10:24.960 that that's a really great question. Well, let me just 0:10:25.200 --> 0:10:27.800 fine tune one thing that you said, Alec, we know 0:10:27.920 --> 0:10:31.319 the cause, we don't know the origin of the cause. Okay, 0:10:31.520 --> 0:10:35.040 So the cause is HIV. It's a virus. We know 0:10:35.240 --> 0:10:40.000 now by doing a phylogenetic tree that there's no doubt 0:10:40.080 --> 0:10:45.080 that decades ago this virus jumped very likely from a 0:10:45.160 --> 0:10:50.480 chimpanzee into a human a blip of an affection, person died, 0:10:50.480 --> 0:10:53.079 went away, jumped again in through a human blip of infection. 0:10:53.160 --> 0:10:57.720 Then all of a sudden, the right circumstances, the dissolution 0:10:57.800 --> 0:11:03.200 of colonization, the impact of commercial sex work, the truck 0:11:03.280 --> 0:11:05.920 up trade that goes back and forth, the disruption of 0:11:05.960 --> 0:11:08.760 family unit. Then you had an outbreak that's spread through 0:11:08.800 --> 0:11:11.280 the rest of the world because it was sexually transmitted. 0:11:11.720 --> 0:11:15.600 So we know for sure what went on there. We 0:11:15.679 --> 0:11:19.240 know for sure what the cause of COVID nineteen is. 0:11:19.320 --> 0:11:24.400 It saws kovie two. It very likely, given the history 0:11:24.440 --> 0:11:28.480 of coronavirus, is saws Kovie one Mayor's the Middle East 0:11:28.480 --> 0:11:33.719 respiratory syndrome ebol uh Zekea that these things jump from 0:11:33.720 --> 0:11:38.480 animals to human What we haven't yet nailed down is 0:11:38.520 --> 0:11:43.840 the precise lineage of from a bat to an intermediary 0:11:43.960 --> 0:11:46.840 to the human, or directly from a bat to a human. 0:11:46.880 --> 0:11:51.040 We know that in the environment in China there are 0:11:51.120 --> 0:11:55.680 bats that have viruses that are not absolutely very close, 0:11:55.760 --> 0:11:58.760 but close enough to make you want to do surveillance 0:11:59.240 --> 0:12:03.079 and find out what's going on in that animal human 0:12:03.120 --> 0:12:08.920 interface that may have allowed it to jump species. That's 0:12:09.000 --> 0:12:12.800 Dr Anthony Fauci. If you like conversations with people at 0:12:12.800 --> 0:12:15.880 the forefront of public health, go to our archives and 0:12:15.920 --> 0:12:18.520 listen to my talk with Dr Joanne Lou who at 0:12:18.520 --> 0:12:23.240 the time was president of Doctors Without Borders. The threat 0:12:23.320 --> 0:12:27.000 of being abducted was so huge back then, and we 0:12:27.080 --> 0:12:30.160 knew that if something were ever to happen to the staff, 0:12:30.200 --> 0:12:34.440 the MSF staff, then we will pull out. So we 0:12:34.480 --> 0:12:38.160 were praying for not having anything bad happening to us, 0:12:38.640 --> 0:12:43.160 because we knew they were delivering really needed aid. On 0:12:43.240 --> 0:12:46.800 the other end, it was so nerve wracking. You can 0:12:46.840 --> 0:12:49.720 hear the rest of that conversation at Here's the thing 0:12:49.920 --> 0:12:53.480 dot org when we returned more of my conversation with 0:12:53.559 --> 0:13:04.760 Dr Anthony Faucci. I'm Alec Baldwin and you're listening to 0:13:04.880 --> 0:13:08.559 hear is the thing? Now? More of my conversation with 0:13:08.679 --> 0:13:13.720 Dr Anthony Fauci. Should we check our antibodies before getting 0:13:13.760 --> 0:13:16.600 a booster? You mean a third shot if you've been 0:13:16.679 --> 0:13:21.080 vaccinated first. No, And that's a firm answer to tell 0:13:21.120 --> 0:13:26.840 your wife that boosters are given for the durability of protection, 0:13:27.520 --> 0:13:32.880 as manifested by clinical observation both in the United States 0:13:32.960 --> 0:13:38.160 cohorts that the waning of protection goes down. I mean 0:13:38.240 --> 0:13:41.959 the immune parameters go down too, but it doesn't really 0:13:42.000 --> 0:13:45.959 matter when you look. It's clinically what counts, ALEC. So 0:13:46.000 --> 0:13:49.960 it goes down for protection against infection and mild to 0:13:50.000 --> 0:13:53.720 moderate disease, it goes down less so, but it still 0:13:53.760 --> 0:13:59.040 goes down against protection against hospitalization and debts. We believe 0:13:59.160 --> 0:14:02.400 that at least I do as a physician and a scientist, 0:14:02.840 --> 0:14:05.040 that sooner or later, at the end of the day, 0:14:05.280 --> 0:14:09.680 we're going to realize that that third shot is going 0:14:09.760 --> 0:14:15.000 to be part of what the normal, complete, optimal vaccine 0:14:15.240 --> 0:14:19.920 regiment is so in some respects, and I'll say this 0:14:20.040 --> 0:14:22.320 it sounds crude, but it isn't. Is that I don't 0:14:22.320 --> 0:14:26.000 really care what the level of anybody is. In your wife, 0:14:26.320 --> 0:14:29.680 I think when her turn comes to get the boost, 0:14:30.120 --> 0:14:34.280 she should get the boost. Can you mix vaccines? Our 0:14:34.360 --> 0:14:36.560 friend had J and J and was recommended to get 0:14:36.560 --> 0:14:39.920 a dose of maderna. Can you mix vaccines safely? It 0:14:40.080 --> 0:14:43.440 is optimal to be given the same product that you 0:14:43.520 --> 0:14:48.240 got originally. But the answer to your question is literally 0:14:48.280 --> 0:14:52.520 in real time being answered. We're doing a grid of 0:14:52.920 --> 0:14:56.120 mix and match. It's called whereas you take people that 0:14:56.160 --> 0:15:01.640 have either gotten Moderna FISA or Jay and Jay. You 0:15:01.680 --> 0:15:04.280 give them the third dose for an m R and 0:15:04.360 --> 0:15:06.400 A and a second dose for J and J, and 0:15:06.480 --> 0:15:09.880 you start. You give Moderna as the third dose, you 0:15:09.960 --> 0:15:12.920 give J and J as the dose, you give FISER 0:15:13.040 --> 0:15:16.600 as the dose, and you examine is it's safe and 0:15:16.680 --> 0:15:19.840 does it induce an immune response that you would predict 0:15:20.200 --> 0:15:24.960 would be protective. We're already finished with the MODERNA study. 0:15:25.520 --> 0:15:27.600 The J and J study is going to be done 0:15:27.680 --> 0:15:31.600 by the end of September the beginning of October, and 0:15:31.640 --> 0:15:33.880 the FISER one will be done by the first the 0:15:33.960 --> 0:15:37.160 second week. When I say done, Alec, I mean the 0:15:37.240 --> 0:15:40.840 data will be collected enough to give to the company, 0:15:40.880 --> 0:15:43.479 which then will give it to the FDA for approval. 0:15:43.760 --> 0:15:48.640 So we're almost there. Does this also include vaccines outside 0:15:48.640 --> 0:15:51.640 the US like astra Zeneca. We are not doing the 0:15:51.720 --> 0:15:54.600 mix and match yet. For astro Zenica, the Brits have 0:15:54.800 --> 0:15:58.000 done that, So the data from the Brits have done that, 0:15:58.440 --> 0:16:02.200 and it looks like there's not a problem there at all. Now, 0:16:03.280 --> 0:16:05.560 I know you've been asked this question every ten minutes, 0:16:06.360 --> 0:16:08.200 but I'm gonna ask you anybody because it's my wife. 0:16:08.200 --> 0:16:12.000 I'm sure you understand. Um, when can we really expect 0:16:12.040 --> 0:16:17.000 kids to get vaccinated? And will it be two shots? Okay, 0:16:17.880 --> 0:16:21.240 your your wife is something in common with millions of 0:16:21.720 --> 0:16:25.960 wives and mothers. So the answer is, as you know, Alec, 0:16:26.040 --> 0:16:31.400 that adolescents from twelve up to seventeen now are already 0:16:31.440 --> 0:16:35.040 with FISER approved to get vaccinated. The question your wife 0:16:35.080 --> 0:16:38.720 is asking is eleven down to five and then ultimately 0:16:38.800 --> 0:16:42.920 five to let's say six months. So Fiser has done 0:16:42.920 --> 0:16:48.360 the study already in children from five to eleven. They 0:16:48.400 --> 0:16:53.440 announced yesterday that they have completed the study. They will 0:16:53.480 --> 0:16:57.480 be submitting the data to the f d A imminently, 0:16:57.800 --> 0:17:00.800 he said, within days the f d A. You never 0:17:00.840 --> 0:17:02.320 want to get ahead of them. You don't want to 0:17:02.360 --> 0:17:05.199 predict what they're going to be able to do. But 0:17:05.359 --> 0:17:09.359 if in fact they find that those vaccines are safe 0:17:09.480 --> 0:17:14.680 and predictive of inducing an immune response that would be protective, 0:17:15.480 --> 0:17:18.399 then it is likely if they approve it. Because I 0:17:18.440 --> 0:17:20.119 always want to be careful, I don't get ahead of 0:17:20.160 --> 0:17:22.680 the f d A. If they improve it, it very 0:17:22.760 --> 0:17:26.720 likely will be before the end of October. Interesting, when 0:17:27.359 --> 0:17:29.879 a mother is pregnant and she's vaccinated to do the 0:17:29.880 --> 0:17:35.399 babies have antibodies. Yes, what happens is two things. The 0:17:35.560 --> 0:17:40.800 anybody's go across the placenta to the baby. Number one, 0:17:40.920 --> 0:17:44.520 so when the baby is born, the baby already has 0:17:44.600 --> 0:17:48.960 the mother's anybody in his or her Sarah point number one. 0:17:49.480 --> 0:17:54.000 If the mother breastfeeds, that's another source of anybody for 0:17:54.040 --> 0:17:58.119 the baby. Now I'm gonna pivot here too. Things that 0:17:58.160 --> 0:18:01.399 are more broader and more historical. I'm sure having been 0:18:01.400 --> 0:18:05.080 through what you went through with the AIDS crisis, which 0:18:05.400 --> 0:18:11.080 was a section of society, a relatively small section of society. 0:18:11.119 --> 0:18:15.080 I mean that doesn't minimize the suffering. But now we 0:18:15.200 --> 0:18:18.920 have something in which the entire country, as people have said, 0:18:19.119 --> 0:18:22.600 it's changed the way we live forever. This thing has occurred, 0:18:22.760 --> 0:18:26.520 and you are a man who is the face of 0:18:26.560 --> 0:18:30.000 the United States government. Now, the weight of the world 0:18:31.119 --> 0:18:34.560 is not all that on your shoulders. You've got colleagues 0:18:34.600 --> 0:18:37.280 around the world that are working very hard in other 0:18:37.280 --> 0:18:39.600 countries to fight this, but certainly the weight of this 0:18:39.760 --> 0:18:49.160 country and how we live and how we don't live, masks, vaccines, distancing, quarantining, lockdowns, 0:18:49.240 --> 0:18:53.000 all of this madness. How was this difference for you 0:18:53.040 --> 0:18:55.960 where the entire country was looking to I've got a 0:18:56.080 --> 0:18:59.200 variety of questions about this, the pressure on you. Did 0:18:59.200 --> 0:19:02.000 you ever feel like my God, I don't know if 0:19:02.040 --> 0:19:03.800 I can see this through. Did you ever have any 0:19:03.880 --> 0:19:07.000 self doubts? Well, Alec, I have to tell you I 0:19:07.320 --> 0:19:10.399 never have, and it isn't a question of self doubt. 0:19:11.000 --> 0:19:14.080 Is that this is what I do, This is the 0:19:14.160 --> 0:19:19.399 life I chose idea of God. Yeah, this is the 0:19:19.440 --> 0:19:24.480 business we've chosen. Yeah, but you know, when you go 0:19:24.520 --> 0:19:28.720 into global health and public health, you have to expect anything. 0:19:29.320 --> 0:19:31.920 You know, HIV are absolutely correct, and I like the 0:19:31.960 --> 0:19:34.639 way you framed it, because it actually is triggering in 0:19:34.680 --> 0:19:37.960 my own mind, you know, another way. I'll have to 0:19:38.000 --> 0:19:40.680 take the time to reflect on that. You're absolutely right, 0:19:41.520 --> 0:19:44.840 it was a segment, generally, a segment of our population, 0:19:44.880 --> 0:19:49.000 even though it's a global pandemic uh HIV is, which 0:19:49.040 --> 0:19:53.040 is sort of an interesting distortion that we've had. What's 0:19:53.040 --> 0:19:55.520 going on in Sub Saharan Africa is a much different 0:19:55.520 --> 0:19:58.920 thing that's going on in the United States. But you're right, 0:19:59.200 --> 0:20:02.280 you have to be paired when you're dealing with a 0:20:02.320 --> 0:20:06.000 public health crisis. It's got to be driven by public 0:20:06.040 --> 0:20:11.200 health principles. And one of the things that is different now, 0:20:11.960 --> 0:20:15.320 and I've said this publicly many time, if there's ever 0:20:15.400 --> 0:20:20.200 a time when you don't want societal divisiveness is when 0:20:20.200 --> 0:20:23.080 you're in the middle of a pandemic. And one of 0:20:23.119 --> 0:20:28.080 the things that has made life extremely unusual for me 0:20:28.440 --> 0:20:31.639 is the fact that I am trying and I and 0:20:31.680 --> 0:20:34.200 I do, and I've I've made the decision that's my life. 0:20:34.240 --> 0:20:35.879 If I wanted to do something else, I would have 0:20:35.920 --> 0:20:38.639 made the choice. I didn't expect that it would be 0:20:38.720 --> 0:20:42.320 as public as it is, which you know is not 0:20:42.520 --> 0:20:45.920 something that I seek or care that much about it's 0:20:45.960 --> 0:20:49.040 the public health. It's the fact that when you go 0:20:49.080 --> 0:20:52.000 into public health, when you're a physician and you're a scientist, 0:20:52.560 --> 0:20:57.640 you have a responsibility as a physician to the individual patient, 0:20:58.320 --> 0:21:02.119 and you have a responsibility to society as a public 0:21:02.160 --> 0:21:07.240 health official, which are all Society becomes your patient and 0:21:07.320 --> 0:21:10.680 you want to do everything that's best for the patient. 0:21:11.480 --> 0:21:14.919 And one of the things that that has been very difficult, 0:21:14.960 --> 0:21:17.919 I must say, but nonetheless you just gotta suck it 0:21:18.000 --> 0:21:20.639 up and do it, is that at the same time 0:21:20.680 --> 0:21:25.680 that you're trying to promote public health principles, you've become 0:21:25.920 --> 0:21:29.760 not only disliked but hated by people. I mean, that 0:21:30.000 --> 0:21:34.120 is something you just don't ever imagine when you're training 0:21:34.200 --> 0:21:38.600 in a profession to help people to save their lives 0:21:38.640 --> 0:21:42.560 as individuals, which I've done in the many, many, many 0:21:42.680 --> 0:21:45.920 thousands of patients that I've taken care of, and as 0:21:45.960 --> 0:21:49.280 a public health official. When I got involved in public 0:21:49.280 --> 0:21:53.159 health issues, I never would have been imagined that the 0:21:53.240 --> 0:21:58.000 politicization of a public health issue would have caused not 0:21:58.160 --> 0:22:04.200 only pushback, but absolute scorn. You've gotten death threats, I have, 0:22:04.240 --> 0:22:07.160 You've got you've gotten some of the extreme far edge 0:22:07.200 --> 0:22:10.320 of that. But at the same time, beyond that, beyond 0:22:10.320 --> 0:22:12.840 the insanity of that kind of thing. What's a criticism 0:22:12.880 --> 0:22:14.760 of the work you've done that's been the most painful 0:22:14.760 --> 0:22:16.600 for you. What's the one that you think they really 0:22:16.640 --> 0:22:20.600 misunderstand what you're trying to do, you know, And it's 0:22:20.760 --> 0:22:24.520 what they call saying since they don't understand, I believe 0:22:24.520 --> 0:22:27.840 the scientistic acts. But he flip flops, he changes his 0:22:27.920 --> 0:22:32.360 mind on things. Well, when you're dealing with an evolving 0:22:32.440 --> 0:22:36.040 outbreak in which every week and every month you get 0:22:36.160 --> 0:22:40.240 dated that you did not have last month, well last week, 0:22:41.080 --> 0:22:44.440 it would be unconscionable for you do not to change 0:22:45.000 --> 0:22:49.199 the way you think about things based on the current data. 0:22:49.320 --> 0:22:51.480 And the thing they keep bringing up is the issue 0:22:51.560 --> 0:22:55.520 early on with the use of masks. Ah, he said 0:22:55.560 --> 0:22:58.159 you didn't really need to have masks back then, and 0:22:58.200 --> 0:23:02.240 now he's out there saying everybody should be wearing a mask. Well, 0:23:02.280 --> 0:23:06.879 the reason for the evolution in thinking is solid. It 0:23:06.920 --> 0:23:09.480 had to do with availability, It had to do with 0:23:09.560 --> 0:23:12.199 proof that they actually work. It had to do with 0:23:12.240 --> 0:23:17.679 the realization, which was stunning Alec that more than fifty 0:23:18.160 --> 0:23:22.640 of the infections were transmitted by someone who is without symptoms. 0:23:23.280 --> 0:23:28.320 There's no other disease that can actually kill you by 0:23:28.320 --> 0:23:32.520 a respiratory route. That is that people, half of them 0:23:32.520 --> 0:23:35.600 don't have any symptoms. When we realize that, it became 0:23:35.760 --> 0:23:38.960 clear that we really needed to do mass. But yet 0:23:39.000 --> 0:23:42.640 people who want to be ultraly critical will say, and well, 0:23:42.640 --> 0:23:45.640 you know, I could understand why, Oh, he flip flops, 0:23:45.640 --> 0:23:47.719 he flip flops on this, he flip flops on that. 0:23:48.840 --> 0:23:52.159 You know, does it bother me? It does because you 0:23:52.160 --> 0:23:54.400 don't like people to think that you're a flip flopper. 0:23:54.440 --> 0:23:56.760 But you'd like to say, let me sit down with 0:23:56.800 --> 0:24:01.480 you and explain that if you don't change your mind 0:24:02.320 --> 0:24:06.600 with the evolution of the new information, then you are 0:24:06.680 --> 0:24:10.199 really guilty of something that's not good. The only thing 0:24:10.240 --> 0:24:12.679 worse than being perceived as a flip flopper is not 0:24:12.760 --> 0:24:15.560 flip flopping, or exactly as you say, letting things evolve 0:24:15.680 --> 0:24:17.520 is the it is a better phrase. Now let me 0:24:17.520 --> 0:24:20.399 ask you this question, what grade do you give the 0:24:20.440 --> 0:24:22.800 American people for the way that they responded to this 0:24:22.840 --> 0:24:25.960 pandemic alec. I don't want to give it a grade. 0:24:26.119 --> 0:24:28.440 And the reason I don't I do respect the fact 0:24:28.480 --> 0:24:32.240 that you're asking a very reasonable question, but people will 0:24:32.280 --> 0:24:34.399 watch this and the next thing we knew, it's the 0:24:34.480 --> 0:24:38.120 sound bite of the year, spread across by people who 0:24:39.480 --> 0:24:41.719 don't mean me. Well, are you concerned about the way, 0:24:41.760 --> 0:24:43.399 because what I was going to say is what I 0:24:43.400 --> 0:24:45.639 wanted to say is a prelude. Is I view the 0:24:45.720 --> 0:24:50.000 COVID pandemic as the dress rehearsal for the climate change 0:24:50.080 --> 0:24:53.080 reality that's coming, where people are going to be asked 0:24:53.119 --> 0:24:57.879 to make significant changes, to go without, to make sacrifices 0:24:57.920 --> 0:25:01.760 about water usage and g usage so forth. I believe 0:25:01.800 --> 0:25:04.040 that the COVID was the dress rehearsal for the climate 0:25:04.119 --> 0:25:06.879 change that's looming. But what what? What are your thoughts 0:25:06.880 --> 0:25:10.320 about how we've done There are many many people in 0:25:10.320 --> 0:25:13.919 the country who have done it correctly and appropriately and 0:25:14.000 --> 0:25:18.520 have considered not only their health the health of their family, 0:25:18.800 --> 0:25:21.879