WEBVTT - Dylan Farrow on Surviving Sexual Abuse 0:00:00.520 --> 0:00:03.600 I'm going to read you something written by Dylan Farrow, 0:00:04.440 --> 0:00:09.280 daughter of legendary actress Mia Farrow and filmmaker Woody Allan. 0:00:10.080 --> 0:00:14.280 What's your favorite Woody Allan movie? Before you answer, you 0:00:14.320 --> 0:00:17.840 should know When I was seven years old, Woody Allan 0:00:17.920 --> 0:00:20.439 took me by the hand and led me into a 0:00:20.520 --> 0:00:24.160 dim closet like attic on the second floor of our house. 0:00:24.840 --> 0:00:27.480 He told me to lay on my stomach and play 0:00:27.480 --> 0:00:31.560 with my brother's electric train set. Then he sexually assaulted me. 0:00:32.680 --> 0:00:35.760 He talked to me while he did it, whispering that 0:00:35.880 --> 0:00:38.760 I was a good girl, that this was our secret, 0:00:39.560 --> 0:00:42.000 promising that we'd go to Paris and I'd be a 0:00:42.040 --> 0:00:46.280 star in his movies. I remember staring at that toy train, 0:00:47.000 --> 0:00:50.040 focusing on it as it traveled in its circle around 0:00:50.080 --> 0:00:54.520 the attic. To this day, I find it difficult to 0:00:54.600 --> 0:00:59.319 look at toy trains. Dylan Farrow wrote that after her 0:00:59.400 --> 0:01:03.320 father was received the Lifetime Achievement Award at the Golden Globes, 0:01:03.800 --> 0:01:08.960 Dylan's experience has been widely covered, often questioned, sometimes attacked 0:01:09.319 --> 0:01:12.959 by the media, Hollywood elite, and the public over the 0:01:13.040 --> 0:01:17.480 last three decades. But what has been rarely talked about 0:01:17.880 --> 0:01:21.600 is what happened to Dylan after the age of seven? 0:01:22.560 --> 0:01:25.399 When did she last see her father? How did she 0:01:25.560 --> 0:01:30.280 navigate her teen years? How did she feel when her 0:01:30.319 --> 0:01:36.880 father married her sister Sunni. On this episode of Navigating Narcissism, 0:01:37.400 --> 0:01:43.800 Dylan Farrow reveals her experiences with self harm, eating disorders, depression, 0:01:44.520 --> 0:01:49.120 the devastating effects of suffering in silence, and how motherhood 0:01:49.160 --> 0:01:55.000 and marriage have helped her heal and thrive. From Red 0:01:55.040 --> 0:02:00.600 Table Talk podcasts and iHeartMedia, I'm Doctor Rominy and this 0:02:01.280 --> 0:02:06.360 is Navigating Narcissism. This podcast should not be used as 0:02:06.400 --> 0:02:10.480 a substitute for medical or mental health advice. Individuals are 0:02:10.520 --> 0:02:15.440 advised to seek independent medical advice, counseling, and or therapy 0:02:15.760 --> 0:02:19.880 from a healthcare professional with respect to any medical condition, 0:02:20.520 --> 0:02:24.800 mental health issue, or health inquiry, including matters discussed on 0:02:24.840 --> 0:02:30.959 this podcast. This episode discusses abuse, which may be triggering 0:02:31.000 --> 0:02:34.680 to some people. The views and opinions expressed are solely 0:02:34.720 --> 0:02:38.959 those of the podcast author or individuals participating in the podcast, 0:02:39.360 --> 0:02:43.920 and do not represent the opinions of Red Table Talk productions, iHeartMedia, 0:02:44.360 --> 0:02:48.440 or their employees. Dylan, It's such a pleasure and such 0:02:48.440 --> 0:02:52.720 an honor to meet you and just to have a conversation. 0:02:52.880 --> 0:02:54.160 Thank you so much for having me. 0:02:54.480 --> 0:02:58.520 You know, Dylan, when we hear an experience like yours, 0:02:59.320 --> 0:03:04.320 it's so easy to get focused on the notoriety and 0:03:04.360 --> 0:03:10.040 the fame of the perpetrator, and in doing that, we 0:03:10.120 --> 0:03:15.480 actually lose the true story of the survivor. You today, 0:03:16.160 --> 0:03:21.959 on navigating narcissism. The focus is on you, your experience 0:03:22.080 --> 0:03:26.800 of healing and surviving and even thriving after that. And 0:03:26.840 --> 0:03:29.200 as a therapist, I can tell you survivors are asked 0:03:29.280 --> 0:03:33.360 many times, unfortunately, to keep telling the story of what 0:03:33.720 --> 0:03:37.280 happened over and over again. I believe that survivors should 0:03:37.280 --> 0:03:41.280 be in full ownership of their stories. So Dylan, I 0:03:41.360 --> 0:03:44.080 want you to begin telling us your story wherever you 0:03:44.120 --> 0:03:44.960 feel comfortable. 0:03:45.720 --> 0:03:48.280 Thank you. It's a little difficult to pinpoint a beginning 0:03:48.840 --> 0:03:52.920 because I would say it started when I was in infancy. 0:03:53.120 --> 0:03:57.120 I almost feel like there wasn't really a chance for 0:03:57.160 --> 0:04:03.800 me to experience a nor quote unquote childhood from infancy. 0:04:03.960 --> 0:04:09.600 I was tremendously overprivileged, and I had this fairy tale 0:04:09.680 --> 0:04:13.440 childhood that had a much darker side to it that 0:04:13.640 --> 0:04:17.680 started as soon as I can remember, even having memories. 0:04:17.880 --> 0:04:21.320 I've backtracked the abuse about that long. It was a 0:04:21.400 --> 0:04:26.960 constant throughout my childhood of grooming and abuse, which culminated 0:04:27.080 --> 0:04:30.160 in the attic incident when I was seven or eight 0:04:30.240 --> 0:04:35.120 years old, and I think people tend to look at 0:04:35.160 --> 0:04:39.920 that as sort of an isolated event, when really it 0:04:39.960 --> 0:04:41.360 was a long process. 0:04:43.600 --> 0:04:45.560 It is a long process, and I think that your 0:04:45.600 --> 0:04:48.920 framing on that is so important, Dylan, because we do 0:04:49.040 --> 0:04:52.520 often get caught up in this culmination and an episode 0:04:52.560 --> 0:04:56.000 that feels like the defining event, but it wasn't that. 0:04:56.120 --> 0:04:59.400 It was a process, and that process shaped your identity 0:04:59.440 --> 0:05:02.440 and it shaped psychology. You also said something that really 0:05:02.560 --> 0:05:04.880 jumped out at me was this idea, I grew up 0:05:04.960 --> 0:05:07.440 incredibly privileged. I grew up in a fairy tale. I 0:05:07.440 --> 0:05:11.240 think that made this all worse, because does that make sense? 0:05:11.279 --> 0:05:13.840 We want stories everything to fit. So when there's the 0:05:13.960 --> 0:05:18.039 fairy tale and then there's something very dark happening, it's 0:05:18.240 --> 0:05:20.920 very hard even for an adult to bridge that. It's 0:05:20.960 --> 0:05:22.480 impossible for a child. 0:05:22.760 --> 0:05:25.320 Actually, when you were speaking, that did resonate with me 0:05:25.440 --> 0:05:30.120 because there were definitely two very different sides to my childhood, 0:05:30.120 --> 0:05:33.240 and one was completely idyllic, and the kind of the 0:05:33.320 --> 0:05:36.520 kind of life that we can only dream about. When 0:05:36.520 --> 0:05:40.480 I talked to my child about my childhood, she has 0:05:40.520 --> 0:05:43.760 no concept of like taking a private plane to Paris 0:05:43.800 --> 0:05:47.040 for the weekend. There were limousines, there were planes, there 0:05:47.120 --> 0:05:50.839 was travel, there was fun, there was a nursery filled 0:05:50.839 --> 0:05:53.360 with toys from Fio Schwartz. We were regulars at the 0:05:53.440 --> 0:05:56.599 Russian Tea Room. And then to have that very dark 0:05:57.040 --> 0:05:59.839 undercurrent of things that were going on at the same time, 0:06:00.120 --> 0:06:04.400 It seems almost impossible when that was my reality, and 0:06:04.480 --> 0:06:09.359 to me, both sides of that were what I considered normal. 0:06:09.640 --> 0:06:11.880 I mean, those were both real experiences, and I think 0:06:11.960 --> 0:06:14.480 we want all the pieces to fit. So how could 0:06:14.480 --> 0:06:16.640 it be a fairy tale and dark and people say, well, 0:06:16.800 --> 0:06:19.240 pick one or the other. And am I concern for 0:06:19.320 --> 0:06:21.640 people who have those sorts of stories. Is it often 0:06:21.680 --> 0:06:24.360 diminishes the empathy that that person gets. 0:06:24.600 --> 0:06:26.960 Yeah, it's like people expect when I talk about the 0:06:27.040 --> 0:06:30.200 dark side of it. Well, I wasn't locked in a 0:06:30.560 --> 0:06:34.919 basement full of cockroaches and abuse like on the Hour 0:06:35.040 --> 0:06:38.880 or anything like that. This was taking place in a 0:06:38.920 --> 0:06:43.760 palatial apartment on the Upper West Side, or in this 0:06:43.880 --> 0:06:46.600 beautiful country house in Connecticut. 0:06:47.160 --> 0:06:49.640 But trauma doesn't know from setting right, and. 0:06:49.560 --> 0:06:52.599 That was part of my difficulty, I think in coming 0:06:52.600 --> 0:06:55.000 to terms with the documentary Alan B. Farrow that came 0:06:55.040 --> 0:06:58.680 out was sort of absorbing the fact that there were 0:06:58.720 --> 0:07:02.520 all of these good times interlaced with abuse, with times 0:07:02.560 --> 0:07:05.599 when I would be taken away from my family for 0:07:05.760 --> 0:07:08.640 one on one episodes with my father where I'd be 0:07:08.839 --> 0:07:12.040 isolated where I'd have to suck his thumb or put 0:07:12.040 --> 0:07:15.120 my head in his lap or something like that. Very 0:07:16.400 --> 0:07:21.960 snapshot memories for me at this point that are incredibly vivid, 0:07:22.240 --> 0:07:26.000 but a little disconnected. 0:07:25.480 --> 0:07:27.960 And that's what we would expect in a trauma survivor. 0:07:28.320 --> 0:07:31.800 Memory gets de siiced and diced, as it were, by 0:07:31.800 --> 0:07:35.200 the entire experience of trauma. So this is a process 0:07:35.240 --> 0:07:38.320 that sounds like it sort of developed through your entire childhood. 0:07:38.600 --> 0:07:41.400 It culminated though, when you were seven years old. What 0:07:41.520 --> 0:07:45.440 I want to understand from you is everything since that event, 0:07:45.520 --> 0:07:48.560 because that's the healing and the surviving and the growth 0:07:49.080 --> 0:07:49.960 that you've gone through. 0:07:50.080 --> 0:07:53.360 It's interesting because the healing portion of my life has 0:07:53.440 --> 0:07:56.920 been the entirety of it. There hasn't been a time 0:07:57.080 --> 0:08:00.880 when I wasn't healing from this. Something interest that my 0:08:01.000 --> 0:08:03.560 mom said to me at one point, she said, we 0:08:03.680 --> 0:08:06.400 have no idea who you might have been if this 0:08:06.440 --> 0:08:11.240 hadn't happened to you, And that really stuck with me, 0:08:11.720 --> 0:08:16.000 because it's true, I really have no concept of who 0:08:16.080 --> 0:08:21.080 I am without this, and a lot of my healing 0:08:21.120 --> 0:08:25.600 process has been trying to connect with a part of 0:08:25.640 --> 0:08:30.400 me that I don't even know exists, trying to find 0:08:31.160 --> 0:08:37.600 something normal in myself, trying to find something that is 0:08:38.559 --> 0:08:40.959 I can't say not traumatized, because I don't think it's 0:08:40.960 --> 0:08:44.480 ever going to completely go away, but a part of 0:08:44.520 --> 0:08:48.440 myself that is not connected to trauma, to these events 0:08:48.520 --> 0:08:52.240 in my life and motherhood has been a huge part 0:08:52.240 --> 0:08:56.480 of that, because it's just been such a completely different 0:08:56.679 --> 0:09:01.200 experience than anything I've ever known, and it's sort of 0:09:01.240 --> 0:09:04.560 forced me to evaluate who I am and what I 0:09:04.600 --> 0:09:06.880 want to pass on to my daughter. So obviously I 0:09:06.920 --> 0:09:10.800 haven't spoken with her about any of this and in 0:09:10.840 --> 0:09:13.600 any real meaningful sense because she's six years old, but 0:09:13.880 --> 0:09:18.280 as she approaches seven and eight, which was the ages 0:09:18.360 --> 0:09:21.400 where all of this culminated for me, it's been a 0:09:21.400 --> 0:09:26.800 little bit emotional, honestly, in seeing this little person who's 0:09:27.040 --> 0:09:29.480 not me, but it's an extension of me who has 0:09:29.559 --> 0:09:34.840 none of that, and seeing her and watching the way 0:09:34.880 --> 0:09:38.080 she interacts with the world and with me and with 0:09:38.160 --> 0:09:43.240 her father, And it's been healing in seeing that, because 0:09:43.520 --> 0:09:47.440 it feels like I was able to pass on peace 0:09:47.760 --> 0:09:49.760 to her that I never had. 0:09:50.040 --> 0:09:52.920 What you're sharing I've heard so many times, especially when 0:09:52.920 --> 0:09:56.880 there's a childhood trauma, childhood betrayal, the process of being 0:09:56.960 --> 0:10:00.320 a parent and doing it in an intentional way, being 0:10:00.600 --> 0:10:04.360 acutely aware of your child's safety and attachment to you 0:10:04.600 --> 0:10:10.079 and place in the world becomes an integral part of healing. However, 0:10:10.120 --> 0:10:13.880 there's also their own developmental arc which is markedly different 0:10:14.240 --> 0:10:18.480 than yours, and it's a really complex bunch of feelings. 0:10:18.720 --> 0:10:21.200 In many ways, it's the very question your mother put 0:10:21.240 --> 0:10:23.520 to you when she said, what would your life have 0:10:23.559 --> 0:10:27.000 been like had all of this not happened? Your daughter, 0:10:27.120 --> 0:10:30.640 in many ways is living that, and that can bring 0:10:30.720 --> 0:10:34.320 up a range of feelings from not only joy and healing, 0:10:34.400 --> 0:10:38.160 but sometimes even grief of what would have been for us. 0:10:39.080 --> 0:10:41.560 Yes, and I would add even jealousy. It's been an 0:10:41.600 --> 0:10:47.480 emotional journey for me seeing this little person who I 0:10:47.600 --> 0:10:52.160 was able to give this to a childhood free of abuse, 0:10:52.360 --> 0:10:57.640 free of trauma. Maybe it's impossible not to traumatize anybody. 0:10:57.720 --> 0:11:04.000 But she's happy and she's and she's completely separate from 0:11:04.040 --> 0:11:08.520 anything that I'd gone through, and that is very freeing 0:11:08.800 --> 0:11:09.320 in a way. 0:11:09.880 --> 0:11:12.960 It is because it's introducing you to an entire reality 0:11:13.080 --> 0:11:16.360 of your life without the trauma. And I'm so grateful, 0:11:16.600 --> 0:11:19.760 Dylan that you shed that insight into this concept of jealousy, 0:11:20.120 --> 0:11:23.319 because I don't think that that's unusual, and trauma survivors 0:11:23.360 --> 0:11:27.360 will say, this is what safety with parents, in her case, 0:11:27.360 --> 0:11:30.400 safety with a father, because you didn't have that, and 0:11:30.480 --> 0:11:32.920 for a moment you'll say, what would they be? Like, 0:11:33.080 --> 0:11:35.559 I think it's part of that process, and yet it's 0:11:35.600 --> 0:11:38.240 almost like this strange, joyful jealousy, but it's still a 0:11:38.320 --> 0:11:41.240 sense of you had something I didn't have. And I'm 0:11:41.280 --> 0:11:43.199 really glad you shared that because I think that will 0:11:43.880 --> 0:11:47.440 normalize and destigmatize a reaction that many people have in 0:11:47.480 --> 0:11:48.719 the circumstances you're in. 0:11:49.320 --> 0:11:52.600 I really hope so, because there are so many complex 0:11:52.640 --> 0:11:55.520 and varied emotions that come with this kind of trauma, 0:11:55.840 --> 0:11:59.880 and it's a journey in itself to unravel and unten 0:12:00.120 --> 0:12:05.560 go and parse these very sometimes conflicting emotions. I will 0:12:05.600 --> 0:12:10.439 feel anger, resentment, maybe even a little jealousy towards my daughter. 0:12:10.520 --> 0:12:16.520 Things that might be construed as negative emotions. They play 0:12:16.520 --> 0:12:20.400 into it as well. And accepting those feelings and working 0:12:20.440 --> 0:12:23.440 through them and allowing yourself to feel them is a 0:12:23.520 --> 0:12:24.800 huge part of that journey. 0:12:24.840 --> 0:12:26.439 It is very much a journey, and I think it's 0:12:26.480 --> 0:12:29.040 very much a journey of complex trauma, which is very 0:12:29.120 --> 0:12:32.360 consistent with what you experienced, sort of a traumatizing experience 0:12:32.360 --> 0:12:36.320 which was inescapable when you were rendered powerless that happened 0:12:36.360 --> 0:12:39.640 over an extended period of time. It's a little different 0:12:39.679 --> 0:12:42.120 than what we would see sometimes in traditional post trauma. 0:12:42.360 --> 0:12:44.120 You know, somebody who'd been the victim of a crime 0:12:44.200 --> 0:12:47.080 one time or something like that. This is different and 0:12:47.160 --> 0:12:49.920 the emotions that are around it are different, and it 0:12:49.920 --> 0:12:53.040 can be confusing unless it's been unpacked by a therapist 0:12:53.040 --> 0:12:54.840 who understands complex trauma. 0:12:55.000 --> 0:12:57.880 Yeah. I mean a lot of the times, especially early 0:12:57.960 --> 0:13:00.679 on in the period where I wasn't healing so much, 0:13:00.920 --> 0:13:04.080 I would feel a lot of negativity towards myself for 0:13:04.160 --> 0:13:07.240 feeling these things like oh, I shouldn't feel that way. 0:13:07.280 --> 0:13:10.240 I should feel this. I'm a bad person for feeling 0:13:10.280 --> 0:13:13.160 this way. I don't think I'll ever not feel this way, 0:13:13.400 --> 0:13:16.840 and that's okay too. I feel like allowing myself to 0:13:17.400 --> 0:13:21.080 sort of sit with my anger, with my resentment has 0:13:21.200 --> 0:13:26.160 helped unlock a little bit more insight into who I am, 0:13:26.320 --> 0:13:28.640 where I am, and where I want to be. 0:13:30.480 --> 0:13:33.720 I couldn't agree more people experiencing the full out of 0:13:33.760 --> 0:13:37.000 complex trauma there will be that period of shame. I'm 0:13:37.000 --> 0:13:38.920 a bad person for feeling this. It's a lot of 0:13:38.960 --> 0:13:42.480 self blame from a world at large public perspective. We 0:13:42.559 --> 0:13:44.400 have an image of what we think someone who's gone 0:13:44.440 --> 0:13:46.560 through trauma should be. They should be sad, they should 0:13:46.600 --> 0:13:49.560 be crying, they should be scared, they should be worried, 0:13:49.840 --> 0:13:54.920 and so when emotions like anger and resentment surface, I 0:13:54.960 --> 0:13:57.360 hate to say it, but I think our societal understanding 0:13:57.360 --> 0:13:59.520 with people like, what, no, You're supposed to be sad, 0:14:00.040 --> 0:14:02.560 and so as a result, the person experiencing it feels 0:14:02.720 --> 0:14:05.360 maybe I'm having the wrong emotion. There are no wrong 0:14:05.400 --> 0:14:08.520 emotions ever for anybody. So I think that is a 0:14:08.559 --> 0:14:10.360 really important part of the healing process. 0:14:10.520 --> 0:14:13.280 I definitely agree, and for a long time I felt 0:14:13.320 --> 0:14:16.760 that there was definitely a way that I should be 0:14:16.880 --> 0:14:20.760 reacting to this, that I should be feeling, and when 0:14:20.760 --> 0:14:24.320 I couldn't sort of squeeze myself into that box, I 0:14:24.440 --> 0:14:27.520 was frustrated with myself because I had an idea of 0:14:27.520 --> 0:14:33.119 what other people's idea was and I wasn't the perfect survivor. 0:14:33.520 --> 0:14:36.760 That was very frustrating to me, because I knew I 0:14:36.880 --> 0:14:39.920 was a survivor, but I wasn't good at it. I 0:14:39.960 --> 0:14:43.680 had to accept that that doesn't take away from my survivorhood, 0:14:44.120 --> 0:14:47.680 and it doesn't detract from what I went through, because 0:14:47.760 --> 0:14:51.960 survivors come in all shapes and sizes, and not all 0:14:52.000 --> 0:14:54.080 of them are going to feel the exact same things 0:14:54.080 --> 0:14:55.120 about what they went through. 0:14:55.440 --> 0:14:58.240 I'm so curious what you think a perfect survivor would 0:14:58.240 --> 0:14:58.760 have looked like. 0:14:59.000 --> 0:15:02.760 I think, going back back to the aftermath of my 0:15:02.880 --> 0:15:06.920 abuse and the experience I had with the Yale New 0:15:06.920 --> 0:15:11.080 Haven people where I had to repeat my story over 0:15:11.120 --> 0:15:14.560 and over and over, I think that that very early 0:15:14.600 --> 0:15:17.720 on put an idea in my head that I'm not 0:15:17.920 --> 0:15:21.080 doing this right. I'm not telling this story right, I'm 0:15:21.120 --> 0:15:26.800 not experiencing this the right way. That they wanted something 0:15:26.800 --> 0:15:29.480 from me and I wasn't giving it to them, which 0:15:29.840 --> 0:15:33.240 of course was its own completely evil thing going on 0:15:33.280 --> 0:15:36.680 that I couldn't even comprehend at the time. But to 0:15:36.760 --> 0:15:40.080 the mind of me as a child, it was trying 0:15:40.120 --> 0:15:45.160 to communicate, trying to explain, trying to get through to 0:15:45.200 --> 0:15:48.720 these people and not being able to which impacted me 0:15:48.760 --> 0:15:53.040 and I'm sure enormous other ways, but I think it 0:15:53.280 --> 0:15:56.680 also put this concept in my head that I wasn't 0:15:56.760 --> 0:16:00.560 really a survivor of anything because I didn't do that. Right. 0:16:00.920 --> 0:16:03.000 What you're rich you're saying just hit me like a 0:16:03.080 --> 0:16:07.320 title wave. Is that being the perfect survivor in many 0:16:07.360 --> 0:16:11.960 ways was contingent on the outside world because it was 0:16:12.000 --> 0:16:13.960 how they received it. Is that if you were a 0:16:13.960 --> 0:16:17.840 perfect survivor, then your story would have been readily clear 0:16:17.880 --> 0:16:20.320 to them. You wouldn't have had to explain it over 0:16:20.400 --> 0:16:24.040 and over again. And because they weren't, that was a 0:16:24.120 --> 0:16:26.920 comment on you as a survivor when we know that 0:16:26.960 --> 0:16:31.520 the vast majority of trauma survivors are gaslighted to this day. Yes, 0:16:32.480 --> 0:16:35.120 so I'm taking a second to take that in because 0:16:35.120 --> 0:16:38.280 you nailed it. That's it. Because if the trauma survivor 0:16:38.920 --> 0:16:43.840 is able to be convincing, then they're a perfect survivor. 0:16:44.320 --> 0:16:47.720 Just so people understand this, Can you explain what happened 0:16:47.760 --> 0:16:50.320 at Yale New Haven after the abuse in the attic? 0:16:50.600 --> 0:16:53.480 Yeah, and I'm sure you can probably explain it better 0:16:53.520 --> 0:16:56.560 than I can, because my entire scope of the experience 0:16:56.880 --> 0:17:01.600 was that in the aftermath of my abuse, I was 0:17:01.640 --> 0:17:05.800 forced to repeat my story a number of times to 0:17:06.400 --> 0:17:12.640 these specialists at Yelle New Haven, and that report was 0:17:12.880 --> 0:17:16.760 ordered by I think the prosecutor in the case, Frank Mako. 0:17:17.640 --> 0:17:21.399 After the alleged abuse happened in the attic, Dylan told 0:17:21.440 --> 0:17:26.000 her mother, who told the therapist. In every state, when 0:17:26.040 --> 0:17:30.600 a minor shares information about known or suspected child abuse 0:17:31.280 --> 0:17:35.200 that sets off a legally mandated series of steps, the 0:17:35.200 --> 0:17:39.000 therapist was required by law to make a report to 0:17:39.040 --> 0:17:43.560 the appropriate department of Child Services. The high profile nature 0:17:43.560 --> 0:17:47.280 of the case meant that numerous agencies got involved to 0:17:47.320 --> 0:17:52.000 investigate Dylan's report of abuse by her father. This resulted 0:17:52.080 --> 0:17:55.159 in a series of interviews and assessments that would be 0:17:55.359 --> 0:18:01.440 overwhelming for any child and incomprehensible where the public stakes 0:18:01.640 --> 0:18:02.400 were so high. 0:18:03.760 --> 0:18:09.920 Instead, I was subjected to a battery of questions over 0:18:09.960 --> 0:18:13.440 and over again about the abuse, and in the end 0:18:13.800 --> 0:18:18.440 the report was delivered to my father and it said 0:18:18.480 --> 0:18:22.040 exactly what he wanted to hear. All I remember from 0:18:22.040 --> 0:18:25.560 that time is that a very nice lady named Bee 0:18:25.600 --> 0:18:28.600 would show up at the house and my mom and 0:18:28.640 --> 0:18:30.119 I would get in the car and we would be 0:18:30.160 --> 0:18:33.720 taken to a doctor's office or some office. It was 0:18:33.760 --> 0:18:37.200 never the same place twice, and I would meet with 0:18:37.560 --> 0:18:40.840 a doctor or a group of doctors, and I would 0:18:40.880 --> 0:18:45.679 be shown an anatomically correct doll and asked where Daddy 0:18:45.720 --> 0:18:48.680 touched me? And I was a kid and that should 0:18:48.720 --> 0:18:52.359 not have happened. The result was a travesty, both for 0:18:52.440 --> 0:18:56.800 me psychologically and I think in terms of the investigation 0:18:57.400 --> 0:18:58.320 that was going on. 0:18:59.280 --> 0:19:01.680 What you were put through as a child. I think 0:19:01.680 --> 0:19:03.840 the nature of the case, the nature of the individual 0:19:04.000 --> 0:19:07.159 featured in the case here was an obsessive zeal to 0:19:07.240 --> 0:19:10.320 protect him and not you, to make sure that you 0:19:10.400 --> 0:19:13.600 got this so right. They documented it so right that 0:19:13.680 --> 0:19:16.159 maybe maybe they could almost have a gotcha moment like, 0:19:16.160 --> 0:19:19.280 oh nope, see that was inconsistent. That's what it felt 0:19:19.320 --> 0:19:21.439 like to me, and then they would be off the hook. 0:19:21.880 --> 0:19:24.359 Of having to view this person who they held in 0:19:24.400 --> 0:19:27.120 high regard and esteem through this perspective. 0:19:27.280 --> 0:19:29.720 Yeah, that was my take on it too. It's interesting 0:19:29.800 --> 0:19:40.480 because I learned most of this as an adult, and. 0:19:37.200 --> 0:19:38.720 Why would you have learned that as a seven year 0:19:38.720 --> 0:19:39.160 old child. 0:19:39.280 --> 0:19:41.280 Not I've learned that as a seven year old child. 0:19:41.320 --> 0:19:45.280 So my experience and lining up what I remember with 0:19:46.119 --> 0:19:49.040 the truth of what was going on was very interesting 0:19:49.119 --> 0:19:52.439 for me because in a way it was validating in 0:19:52.480 --> 0:19:55.320 a sense of like, yes, I was gas lit and 0:19:56.119 --> 0:19:58.960 this sort of tactic should never have been used on 0:19:59.000 --> 0:20:02.879 a seven year old child, like this was absolutely wrong 0:20:02.960 --> 0:20:06.160 and bad. And for many, many years, and up until 0:20:06.440 --> 0:20:11.080 my twenties even I did not consider myself a victim 0:20:11.200 --> 0:20:16.000 or survivor of anything, well, maybe of molestation. It was 0:20:16.080 --> 0:20:18.520 how I sort of categorized it in my head. And 0:20:18.600 --> 0:20:22.320 I'd even had conversations with people close to me. I 0:20:22.359 --> 0:20:25.720 had said to them, I think the reason I'm reacting 0:20:25.760 --> 0:20:28.080 to this is because of what happened when I was 0:20:28.119 --> 0:20:32.280 a child, and the response from this person was, oh, 0:20:32.520 --> 0:20:34.919 you know, like, calm down, it's not like you were raped. 0:20:35.240 --> 0:20:41.160 I internalized that conversation as oh, no, you're absolutely right, 0:20:41.200 --> 0:20:43.120 it's not like I was raped. I have no right 0:20:43.200 --> 0:20:45.720 to feel this way. That impacted me for a very 0:20:45.760 --> 0:20:49.560 long time, and it wasn't until really my late twenties 0:20:49.680 --> 0:20:52.480 that I started to fully understand the scope of what 0:20:52.560 --> 0:20:57.480 I'd been through and accept the depth of my own trauma. 0:20:58.359 --> 0:21:00.520 The way we were all told the story, the press 0:21:00.560 --> 0:21:02.800 and the media was we heard your story up until 0:21:02.840 --> 0:21:05.840 you were eight, and then there was a big gap 0:21:05.880 --> 0:21:09.120 in the story until we heard again the powerful words 0:21:09.160 --> 0:21:11.280 you wrote in twenty fourteen. Can you talk to us 0:21:11.280 --> 0:21:14.720 about that almost twenty year gap. What was your process 0:21:14.800 --> 0:21:20.959 of healing, surviving, living like in that twenty year period. 0:21:21.320 --> 0:21:27.679 I was very much surviving and not thriving. I was 0:21:27.840 --> 0:21:33.159 very much coping instead of healing. I had pushed down 0:21:33.840 --> 0:21:36.880 everything that I had gone through. I told my mom, 0:21:36.880 --> 0:21:38.560 I was like, I don't want to talk about it. 0:21:38.600 --> 0:21:41.080 I don't want to think about it. I don't want 0:21:41.359 --> 0:21:44.800 it mentioned in my presence. Just I think my words 0:21:44.800 --> 0:21:47.920 were tell me when he's dead, and that was it. 0:21:48.040 --> 0:21:52.520 My wishes were honored to the letter that nothing concerning 0:21:52.760 --> 0:21:56.440 that era ever came up in my presence, at least 0:21:56.440 --> 0:22:00.640 not in the family. And then I'd wonder why I'd 0:22:00.680 --> 0:22:03.879 see a picture in a magazine and have what I 0:22:03.920 --> 0:22:07.199 didn't realize was a panic attack, or you know, a 0:22:07.280 --> 0:22:10.560 joke would happen on TV and I'd have what I 0:22:10.560 --> 0:22:14.919 didn't know was a PTSD flashback. I just sort of 0:22:15.800 --> 0:22:20.240 internalized that as Oh, I'm touchy, I'm sensitive. Just get 0:22:20.280 --> 0:22:25.240 over at, Dylan. So I was very much punishing myself 0:22:25.440 --> 0:22:28.840 in a lot of ways, and I was coping through 0:22:28.880 --> 0:22:29.440 a lot of it. 0:22:29.920 --> 0:22:39.040 We will be right back with this conversation. During those 0:22:39.080 --> 0:22:42.439 twenty years, Dylan, were you in therapy or really this 0:22:42.600 --> 0:22:45.199 was a period where your family respected your wishes not 0:22:45.240 --> 0:22:47.440 talk about it, and you didn't have those supports. 0:22:47.600 --> 0:22:51.960 I had a wonderful therapist when I was I want 0:22:52.000 --> 0:22:55.480 to say around eleven years old. I had named doctor Alexander, 0:22:56.119 --> 0:22:59.680 and she was one of the only therapists who tried 0:22:59.720 --> 0:23:01.920 to get to talk about it. I was very resistant, 0:23:01.920 --> 0:23:06.600 but she was patient and understanding and really wonderful. She 0:23:06.720 --> 0:23:10.199 passed away while I was in therapy, and it was 0:23:10.240 --> 0:23:12.720 devastating for me. It took me a very long time 0:23:13.320 --> 0:23:16.800 to find and connect with therapists sort of in general, 0:23:16.840 --> 0:23:20.040 because I've been in therapy since I was since I 0:23:20.040 --> 0:23:22.200 can even remember there were a few of the bad 0:23:22.240 --> 0:23:26.879 ones during that twenty year period, but I didn't really 0:23:26.920 --> 0:23:32.919 start seeking therapy in earnest until around twenty fourteen. So 0:23:33.160 --> 0:23:36.440 it took me up until recently to find a therapist 0:23:36.520 --> 0:23:40.400 that I truly feel comfortable and connected with, somebody who 0:23:40.440 --> 0:23:46.560 specializes in trauma and particularly sexual trauma. And it's made 0:23:46.600 --> 0:23:47.640 a huge difference. 0:23:47.920 --> 0:23:51.040 It's interesting, Dylan, because I don't want to talk about it. 0:23:51.080 --> 0:23:52.600 I don't want to hear about it. I don't want 0:23:52.600 --> 0:23:56.600 anyone to bring it up. Absolutely makes sense to anyone 0:23:56.680 --> 0:24:00.560 who's been through it, but there's an opportunity cost there, right, 0:24:00.760 --> 0:24:03.600 because under that line, it's almost like it's almost all 0:24:03.600 --> 0:24:07.560 this debris that's piling up, like behind a dam. Yes, 0:24:08.040 --> 0:24:10.600 and that's where we see the things you were describing, 0:24:10.720 --> 0:24:17.040 panic attacks really almost like overwhelming freezing anxiety. All of 0:24:17.080 --> 0:24:20.800 this stuff is happening. You're not addressing the thing which 0:24:20.840 --> 0:24:23.760 is so deeply uncomfortable, and you just don't want to. 0:24:24.359 --> 0:24:26.920 But you know, the psyche does what the psyche does, 0:24:26.920 --> 0:24:29.520 and like I said, all the debris accumulates and it 0:24:29.640 --> 0:24:33.520 sneaks up, and you were going through adolescence, you've lost 0:24:33.600 --> 0:24:36.760 your therapists, which at that age, to have a therapist 0:24:36.880 --> 0:24:39.600 die is actually a trauma and a loss and a grief. 0:24:39.640 --> 0:24:43.400 We don't talk about enough because it doesn't happen a lot, 0:24:43.520 --> 0:24:44.720 but certainly it could happen. 0:24:45.080 --> 0:24:45.480 Yeah. 0:24:45.720 --> 0:24:47.919 Also, I want to say that I really appreciate your 0:24:47.960 --> 0:24:53.240 distinction between coping and not healing. That's such an important thing. 0:24:53.840 --> 0:24:56.320 I'd never even thought of it that way. It's such 0:24:56.359 --> 0:24:59.720 a wise way to put it, because coping makes it 0:24:59.720 --> 0:25:03.959 look to the world like you're doing okay. You're getting 0:25:04.040 --> 0:25:06.880 up and you're jumping through the hoops, you're brushing your teeth, 0:25:06.960 --> 0:25:10.320 you're going to bed, you're folding your clothes. That's coping. 0:25:10.640 --> 0:25:13.119 And I think coping actually gets too good a brand 0:25:13.160 --> 0:25:17.160 in some ways, because I think it belies what's happening 0:25:17.680 --> 0:25:20.440 behind it. We want to believe, oh, well, they're doing 0:25:20.520 --> 0:25:23.760 the stuff they're supposed to do and everything's fine, and 0:25:23.800 --> 0:25:26.320 we often don't think about looking under the hood. I'm like, 0:25:26.400 --> 0:25:29.520 the car is shiny, I'm not so sure the engine's okay, 0:25:30.000 --> 0:25:33.040 And I think that that's tricky. And I'm really really 0:25:33.080 --> 0:25:35.840 glad you brought that up because you put it so beautifully. 0:25:35.880 --> 0:25:38.560 I'm actually going to steal that from you for oh elect, 0:25:39.800 --> 0:25:41.840 I'm telling you right now. But here's the thing. You're 0:25:41.840 --> 0:25:44.879 going through adolescence. Your family's doing the loving thing and 0:25:44.880 --> 0:25:47.800 supporting you by honoring your boundary, which I think was 0:25:48.040 --> 0:25:51.040 very important. Other things, though, were happening. And if I may, 0:25:51.520 --> 0:25:55.239 your father had married your stepsister, my sister. So let 0:25:55.280 --> 0:25:57.560 me say that again, and I apologize for getting that wrong. 0:25:57.840 --> 0:26:02.520 So your father mary, your sister. As you're going through 0:26:02.560 --> 0:26:06.600 this twenty year period not only of adolescence, but managing 0:26:06.640 --> 0:26:11.639 this trauma that you're not processing and not adequately supported 0:26:11.880 --> 0:26:15.359 and all of that, it's so incredibly difficult. 0:26:16.119 --> 0:26:22.159 I still have trouble wrapping my brain around that sentence 0:26:23.080 --> 0:26:27.879 your father married your sister. It is so bizarre and 0:26:27.960 --> 0:26:33.720 it is so outlandish. And the fact that anybody can 0:26:34.000 --> 0:26:38.000 look at that sentence or hear it and think, oh, 0:26:38.040 --> 0:26:40.919 it's totally normal. They're in love and blah blah blah. 0:26:41.560 --> 0:26:46.160 It just the mental gymnastics needed to accept that sentence 0:26:46.200 --> 0:26:48.240 as something normal baffles me. 0:26:50.000 --> 0:26:54.520 I mean, Dylan, it's a trauma. That sentence is a trauma. 0:26:54.560 --> 0:26:59.439 A father marrying a sister is a trauma. It's not 0:26:59.480 --> 0:27:02.880 even mental gymnastics left the room a long time ago. 0:27:03.320 --> 0:27:07.600 We're in trauma now. I mean that is betrayal. Yeah, 0:27:07.800 --> 0:27:14.000 it's the most essential betrayal because, frankly, Dylan, if not again, 0:27:14.119 --> 0:27:17.600 nothing else had happened. This was the sole event that occurred. 0:27:18.200 --> 0:27:21.200 This in and of itself is a seismic traumatic event. 0:27:21.680 --> 0:27:23.640 And this wasn't the only thing that happened. The other 0:27:23.680 --> 0:27:27.120 things that happened to you were much more undercutting your 0:27:27.160 --> 0:27:29.600 sense of safety in the world. It was as though 0:27:29.680 --> 0:27:33.200 up was down and high was low and hot was cold, 0:27:33.240 --> 0:27:35.640 Like where does one look for safety in the midst 0:27:35.720 --> 0:27:35.919 of that? 0:27:38.680 --> 0:27:44.320 I don't even know. I spent years managing depression and 0:27:44.400 --> 0:27:49.399 eating disorder PTSD anxiety. I had a lot on my plate, 0:27:50.760 --> 0:27:55.840 and I was simultaneously trying to pretend that it wasn't there. 0:27:56.040 --> 0:28:00.240 I was cutting myself, I was binge eating was not 0:28:00.840 --> 0:28:04.720 mentally healthy. So it was very, very difficult, I think 0:28:05.480 --> 0:28:09.479 for me to understand what I was going through. It 0:28:09.520 --> 0:28:13.160 took me years to put words to it. I didn't 0:28:13.200 --> 0:28:17.720 have the language, I didn't have the tools. During that 0:28:17.760 --> 0:28:18.399 twenty year. 0:28:18.280 --> 0:28:22.719 Period, no one could navigate this easily. What was that 0:28:22.800 --> 0:28:24.520 turning point for you? What did that look like. 0:28:24.720 --> 0:28:28.200 I guess. If we had to land on one event, 0:28:28.680 --> 0:28:33.200 it was the Golden Globes in twenty fourteen. My father 0:28:33.240 --> 0:28:38.040 got the Lifetime Achievement award and I snapped, and that, 0:28:38.200 --> 0:28:40.880 of course led to its own trauma. But it was 0:28:40.920 --> 0:28:44.760 an interesting night because I wasn't even watching the Golden Globes. 0:28:44.800 --> 0:28:48.880 I don't watch award shows, and I was playing video 0:28:48.920 --> 0:28:51.520 games and then suddenly I get a message from a 0:28:51.600 --> 0:28:55.719 friend and it was I'm so sorry that this happened 0:28:55.760 --> 0:28:58.280 to you, like if you need anything, blah blah blah 0:28:58.320 --> 0:29:02.320 blah blah, And I was like, who died? Like I 0:29:02.400 --> 0:29:06.240 was like, was there an earthquake? I had no idea. 0:29:06.560 --> 0:29:10.040 And suddenly I had six more messages, all the same thing, 0:29:10.240 --> 0:29:13.560 like I'm so sorry, Like are you okay? Do you 0:29:13.600 --> 0:29:18.160 want to talk? And I was completely confused. And then 0:29:18.240 --> 0:29:21.000 finally I turned on the news and I saw it, 0:29:21.120 --> 0:29:24.120 and all of the coping that I had been doing 0:29:24.320 --> 0:29:29.360 just wasn't cutting it. Suddenly I had a panic attack, 0:29:29.480 --> 0:29:33.000 a PTSD episode the likes of which I had never 0:29:33.560 --> 0:29:38.120 experienced before. I saw a clip of him being awarded 0:29:38.400 --> 0:29:42.480 the thing and all the people in the audience clapping 0:29:42.520 --> 0:29:47.040 and cheering and the speech that preceded it, and I snapped. 0:29:47.920 --> 0:29:49.760 The next thing, I remember, I was just in bed, 0:29:49.840 --> 0:29:53.320 I was just crying, and my husband was with me, 0:29:54.000 --> 0:29:57.120 and I was a mess. I was a wreck. And 0:29:57.560 --> 0:29:59.840 it took me a while to sort of parse my thoughts. 0:30:00.440 --> 0:30:03.239 My first assumption was just did they not know? Like 0:30:03.760 --> 0:30:06.640 they must not know, I have to say something. I 0:30:06.680 --> 0:30:10.400 wrote down all my thoughts and I posted them on 0:30:10.440 --> 0:30:15.440 my private Facebook just for my friends and acquaintances to see. 0:30:15.920 --> 0:30:17.880 A lot of the response I got to that was 0:30:18.400 --> 0:30:22.440 have you considered publishing this? And I thought, oh, well, 0:30:22.640 --> 0:30:26.160 maybe I should. And I remember talking to Ronan at 0:30:26.160 --> 0:30:29.080 that point. He was definitely nervous when I brought up 0:30:29.360 --> 0:30:32.320 the idea of putting it out there publicly. It was 0:30:32.360 --> 0:30:35.520 also the first time that I had ever talked to 0:30:35.600 --> 0:30:37.880 him about the abuse, and we had a very long 0:30:38.840 --> 0:30:42.760 conversation where at one point he started crying. It was 0:30:42.760 --> 0:30:44.480 a bit of a turning point for us, both, I think, 0:30:44.640 --> 0:30:50.680 in our relationship and sorry. We stayed on the phone 0:30:50.840 --> 0:30:54.880 for a couple of hours, and while he wasn't thrilled 0:30:54.920 --> 0:30:57.320 with the idea, he was basically like, you're going to 0:30:57.360 --> 0:31:00.440 do what you're going to do. And after that phone call, 0:31:00.600 --> 0:31:03.160 I decided that this was something that I had to do, 0:31:03.360 --> 0:31:05.640 you know, not just for myself. I felt almost like 0:31:05.680 --> 0:31:11.040 a moral imperative to disclose this publicly. So I gathered 0:31:11.120 --> 0:31:14.760 all my thoughts and wrote everything down and I sent 0:31:14.800 --> 0:31:18.320 it out into the world. I sent it first to 0:31:18.400 --> 0:31:21.720 Nick Christoph because he was the only person I really 0:31:22.280 --> 0:31:23.960 I knew he was. He was a friend of my mom's. 0:31:24.080 --> 0:31:26.280 He passed it along to the op ed section at 0:31:26.320 --> 0:31:29.800 The New York Times, who promptly rejected it and said 0:31:29.840 --> 0:31:33.760 it was either too volatile or unethical. But he said, 0:31:33.800 --> 0:31:35.480 you know, like, if you can't find a home, I'm 0:31:35.520 --> 0:31:39.280 willing to put this on my column for you. And 0:31:39.360 --> 0:31:41.960 at the time I was also trying at the La Times, 0:31:42.160 --> 0:31:45.360 and that was a week long process to try and 0:31:45.400 --> 0:31:48.480 shepherd it through to publication, and at the last second 0:31:49.000 --> 0:31:51.360 that was shut down too. So I went back to 0:31:51.440 --> 0:31:55.080 Nick and I, you know, you said you said you'd 0:31:55.080 --> 0:31:56.680 be willing to put this in your column. Is this 0:31:56.720 --> 0:32:00.480 something that you're that you're serious about? He was absolutely willing. 0:32:00.560 --> 0:32:03.680 He ran it in his column, but it was rigorously 0:32:03.920 --> 0:32:06.640 fact checked by a team of lawyers, and then it 0:32:06.680 --> 0:32:11.760 came out, and there was, of course a big response, 0:32:12.200 --> 0:32:16.560 and immediately The New York Times gives my father unlimited 0:32:16.640 --> 0:32:20.400 unfact base for a rebuttal and this is all pre 0:32:20.560 --> 0:32:23.840 me too or anything. People really didn't have any clue 0:32:24.480 --> 0:32:27.760 what it meant to deal with survivors at this point, 0:32:27.880 --> 0:32:31.840 so I was sort of navigating this alone. Another traumatic 0:32:31.880 --> 0:32:34.800 experience for me was releasing that off ed because the 0:32:34.840 --> 0:32:39.280 response was just not at all what I'd envisioned would happen. 0:32:39.400 --> 0:32:44.239 It wasn't how I would react if I'd been on 0:32:44.280 --> 0:32:48.600 the outside. What was the response still in decidedly negative? 0:32:48.960 --> 0:32:51.240 Yeah, and I remember it well. I'll tell you it's 0:32:51.320 --> 0:32:53.640 nine years ago, which to me is still recent. So 0:32:54.080 --> 0:32:56.240 you're saying it was pre me too, but we're not 0:32:56.240 --> 0:33:03.320 talking about nineteen thirty. Nine years ago is very age memory, RIGHTA. 0:33:03.960 --> 0:33:06.640 I tried very hard to stay away from the news, 0:33:07.760 --> 0:33:10.400 but most of it was just parroting the story that 0:33:10.400 --> 0:33:14.640 they'd heard twenty years earlier from my father and talking 0:33:14.680 --> 0:33:18.040 about the Yale New Haven Report and talking about the 0:33:18.080 --> 0:33:22.280 fact that it never went to trial. And at the 0:33:22.360 --> 0:33:26.520 time I didn't have Twitter or anything like that, so 0:33:26.600 --> 0:33:30.640 I just sort of laid low and decided obviously something 0:33:30.680 --> 0:33:34.320 is very wrong here, and so I surrendered control of it. 0:33:34.560 --> 0:33:37.880 Do I remember when I read it Dylan, and I thought, oh, 0:33:38.160 --> 0:33:41.160 she's calling out the enablers, right. And I didn't know 0:33:41.320 --> 0:33:43.200 much about the story, but I was still working in 0:33:43.200 --> 0:33:48.160 this area, and I remember thinking, oh, no, when you 0:33:48.200 --> 0:33:51.400 call out the enablers, nothing good ever happens. I remember, 0:33:51.440 --> 0:33:59.120 this show's called Navigating Narcissism. So it's about these unempathic, entitled, grandiose, arrogant, manipulative, 0:33:59.200 --> 0:34:03.000 gas lighting people who get away with a lot of stuff. 0:34:03.360 --> 0:34:06.520 But the reason they get away with all that stuff 0:34:07.120 --> 0:34:11.280 is because the enablers let it happen. The very publication 0:34:11.840 --> 0:34:15.640 that wouldn't publish your op ed was more than willing 0:34:16.000 --> 0:34:21.080 to publish his unfact checked OpEd right there. That's enabling 0:34:21.320 --> 0:34:25.000 by people who had tremendous power in the industry. So 0:34:25.640 --> 0:34:28.600 how did this affect your life? Because you've now laid 0:34:28.600 --> 0:34:32.719 out for us twenty years, you've not really been unpacking this. 0:34:32.840 --> 0:34:35.319 You're not really doing a lot of trauma informed work 0:34:35.320 --> 0:34:41.040 on this. You're having experiences like depression, anxiety, eating disorder PTSD, 0:34:41.320 --> 0:34:43.920 all the things we'd expect for somebody who hasn't had 0:34:43.920 --> 0:34:47.560 the opportunity to process their trauma. Twenty fourteen comes up. 0:34:47.800 --> 0:34:50.600 I'm not going to use snapped. I'm going to say 0:34:50.680 --> 0:34:54.160 that you actually had the kind of emotional reaction we 0:34:54.200 --> 0:34:57.920 would expect from somebody who had been harmed and invalidated 0:34:58.200 --> 0:35:02.239 and was watching their abuse or be emboldened. That's how 0:35:02.280 --> 0:35:05.440 I frame it. I'm not giving you snapped. Your reaction 0:35:05.600 --> 0:35:08.320 makes all the sense in the world. It really does, 0:35:08.600 --> 0:35:11.319 if from an entirely trauma in FOREGM perspective, because you 0:35:11.320 --> 0:35:13.960 were already struggling because you weren't processing the trauma. Now 0:35:13.960 --> 0:35:16.239 it's in your face again. How did it affect your 0:35:16.239 --> 0:35:19.920 life now in your process of healing and living well? 0:35:20.239 --> 0:35:26.120 In the immediate aftermath, I definitely was re traumatized, and 0:35:26.200 --> 0:35:30.360 there was a whole new level of trauma added to 0:35:30.800 --> 0:35:35.120 what was already there. The revictimization that occurred in that 0:35:35.280 --> 0:35:41.879 time was devastating to me, and I became a gloraphobic. 0:35:42.160 --> 0:35:44.760 To this day, I have anxiety about leaving my house. 0:35:45.120 --> 0:35:47.880 Even to just go to the grocery store is something 0:35:48.080 --> 0:35:52.120 that I have to manage. I've been in therapy. I've 0:35:52.200 --> 0:35:57.120 been doing treatments for my depression and luckily things have 0:35:57.200 --> 0:36:00.560 taken an upturn. Things were tricky for a while because 0:36:00.680 --> 0:36:03.760 the news would happen and I'd have to formulate a response, 0:36:03.800 --> 0:36:06.920 and that was its own trauma. One of the things 0:36:06.920 --> 0:36:09.799 that has happened for the better was getting the documentary 0:36:10.080 --> 0:36:14.080 Alan V. Farrow released. That was huge for me just 0:36:14.120 --> 0:36:18.200 in terms of peace of mind. I've also been examining 0:36:18.200 --> 0:36:21.160 myself under the lens of trauma for the first time 0:36:21.760 --> 0:36:27.160 and sort of forcing myself to sit with the uncomfortable emotions. 0:36:27.200 --> 0:36:30.080 And I'm very lucky that i also have a very 0:36:30.120 --> 0:36:35.200 strong support network my family, for my husband, an incredible daughter. 0:36:35.640 --> 0:36:40.680 Dedicating myself to healing has been a really long, hard road. 0:36:42.000 --> 0:36:45.000 It is a very long road because it's a daily practice, right, 0:36:45.280 --> 0:36:48.719 Healing's not just It's not a destination, and it's not 0:36:48.960 --> 0:36:51.439 I think on our big problem is we too often 0:36:51.480 --> 0:36:56.160 try to apply biomedical frameworks to mental health healing and 0:36:56.200 --> 0:37:01.640 processes that people who have endured traumatization. Traumatization and especially 0:37:01.719 --> 0:37:05.680 at such a public level, you know, by not just individuals, 0:37:05.920 --> 0:37:08.960 but by institutions. There's a woman named doctor Jennifer Frid 0:37:09.000 --> 0:37:12.879 who talks about institutional betrayal, and that's a massive form 0:37:12.920 --> 0:37:16.480 of trauma. That an entire institutional system that's nameless and 0:37:16.520 --> 0:37:21.480 faceless but comprised of many people that are collectively re 0:37:21.600 --> 0:37:26.080 traumatizing a person actually has its horrific fallout for people. 0:37:26.320 --> 0:37:29.080 It's true. I can't watch movies anymore. I can barely 0:37:29.120 --> 0:37:36.680 watch television. I watch The Mandalorian exclusively. Anytime something comes 0:37:36.760 --> 0:37:39.359 up that my husband wants to watch with me, he's 0:37:39.480 --> 0:37:42.000 very very sweet. He checks the cast to make sure 0:37:42.040 --> 0:37:48.160 that it's safe quote unquote, and you know, he'll let 0:37:48.160 --> 0:37:50.680 me know if, oh no, we can't watch that. It's 0:37:50.760 --> 0:37:52.920 very nice of him to do that. He's basically been 0:37:53.000 --> 0:37:55.600 like he's like that website like does the Dog Die? 0:37:55.880 --> 0:37:57.600 It's so just. You know, there's a site called common 0:37:57.640 --> 0:37:59.879 Sense Media, but I never knew there's one called dust. 0:38:01.120 --> 0:38:03.640 What is it about casts that you want your husband 0:38:03.719 --> 0:38:05.280 to check out before you watch a film? 0:38:05.440 --> 0:38:08.920 Well, there are those in Hollywood who don't believe me, 0:38:09.640 --> 0:38:16.560 very staunchly defend my father, and it's hurtful, and that's 0:38:16.560 --> 0:38:20.960 probably actually a small word for it. It's devastating to me, 0:38:21.320 --> 0:38:23.960 it would be to any survivor to be told, we 0:38:24.000 --> 0:38:27.920 don't believe you, you're lying. We stand with your abuser, 0:38:28.280 --> 0:38:31.239 but to have somebody do it publicly, somebody well known, 0:38:31.640 --> 0:38:38.120 somebody with renown, with respect, it's crushing. I'm not sure 0:38:38.160 --> 0:38:41.560 I've ever like fully been able to describe what goes 0:38:41.600 --> 0:38:45.359 through my head when that happens, especially especially when it's 0:38:45.400 --> 0:38:48.520 somebody that I respected or somebody that I was a 0:38:48.560 --> 0:38:52.520 fan of. That saying never meet your heroes, don't disclose 0:38:52.560 --> 0:38:55.120 your abuse to them either, And what you said about 0:38:55.280 --> 0:38:59.160 enablers really resonated with me in that sense too, because 0:38:59.480 --> 0:39:02.839 that's exactly what it is, exactly the way you described it. 0:39:02.880 --> 0:39:05.440 They're just very high powered enablers. 0:39:06.480 --> 0:39:08.600 And those are the most dangerous ones of all because 0:39:08.600 --> 0:39:12.680 they can literally shape narratives, decide if narratives get shared, 0:39:13.160 --> 0:39:16.320 distort what's being shared. And even in an an ordinary 0:39:16.400 --> 0:39:19.560 system you're working for a employer, no one's ever heard 0:39:19.560 --> 0:39:23.640 of your small family system or something like that, enablers exist. 0:39:24.000 --> 0:39:28.320 The retraumatization that can happen from people continuing to uphold 0:39:28.880 --> 0:39:33.279 the person who is callously denying and did harm. That 0:39:33.360 --> 0:39:36.120 harm is leading a person to engage in more self blame, 0:39:36.200 --> 0:39:40.040 more self doubt, which are really really pernicious processes. What's 0:39:40.120 --> 0:39:43.200 amazing about you is. You would think after one op 0:39:43.360 --> 0:39:44.920 ed that would have taken you out of the op 0:39:45.120 --> 0:39:50.240 ed business and said never can, but you bravely went forward. 0:39:50.640 --> 0:39:56.200 You remarkably wrote another amazing op ed during the Me 0:39:56.280 --> 0:39:59.359 Too movement I did, and you did it again. Good 0:39:59.400 --> 0:40:02.920 for you about healing that could not have been easy. 0:40:03.080 --> 0:40:05.279 Can you talk about what that process was like? 0:40:05.920 --> 0:40:07.680 In a lot of ways, it was a lot easier 0:40:08.200 --> 0:40:11.360 because people were talking about me too in general. People 0:40:11.360 --> 0:40:15.760 were also starting to understand like, hey, maybe we should 0:40:15.800 --> 0:40:21.399 give survivors a platform, So it was very different experience. 0:40:22.000 --> 0:40:24.960 When I wrote the second piece and it was published 0:40:24.960 --> 0:40:27.759 in the La Times, where my first piece had been 0:40:28.000 --> 0:40:32.040 turned down, which spoke to progress. To me, it was encouraging, 0:40:32.080 --> 0:40:36.440 but my expectations were lower because I at that point 0:40:36.680 --> 0:40:39.920 had even just internalized it as well, the world just 0:40:39.960 --> 0:40:44.480 hates me, but I'm going to do this anyway because 0:40:44.640 --> 0:40:48.000 it's not like their opinion can get any lower. So 0:40:48.080 --> 0:40:50.200 I really just was like, to hell with it at 0:40:50.200 --> 0:40:54.120 that point. But I was angry because people were talking 0:40:54.200 --> 0:40:57.440 about high profile names for the first time in ways 0:40:57.480 --> 0:41:00.800 that they hadn't been discussed before. People were putting the 0:41:00.880 --> 0:41:05.279 lens on people and nobody was talking about little old me, 0:41:06.000 --> 0:41:10.440 And I mean, maybe that was egotistical of me to 0:41:10.480 --> 0:41:13.239 assume that that I'd be important enough to be discussed, 0:41:13.320 --> 0:41:17.919 but it mattered to me. And the biggest sticking point 0:41:18.160 --> 0:41:21.960 to me in the whole experience of that whole revictimization 0:41:22.120 --> 0:41:25.520 process was not mattering that my story didn't matter, that 0:41:25.520 --> 0:41:29.480 that little girl who this happened to did not matter. 0:41:29.760 --> 0:41:33.439 That outraged me in a way that I can't even 0:41:33.640 --> 0:41:38.120 properly articulate. The biggest problem was still that there was 0:41:38.160 --> 0:41:43.960 no evidence. Basically, people were taking things on basis of like, oh, well, 0:41:44.000 --> 0:41:46.680 there are fifty accusers. It was just me. I was 0:41:46.719 --> 0:41:51.200 alone and I had some court documents, but that was 0:41:51.280 --> 0:41:56.120 really it. And what I needed then was ronan Pharaoh 0:41:56.280 --> 0:42:00.720 to put all the facts in one easily digestible place 0:42:00.960 --> 0:42:04.399 that people can reference easily. And I didn't have that. 0:42:05.080 --> 0:42:08.200 So it was a slow climb from twenty fourteen to 0:42:08.520 --> 0:42:12.359 twenty seventeen eighteen to Alan v. Farrow. That was when 0:42:12.400 --> 0:42:15.600 I noticed the significant change in public opinion. 0:42:17.080 --> 0:42:21.560 How has that shift in public opinion correlated with or 0:42:22.040 --> 0:42:24.320 walked alongside your process of healing? 0:42:24.640 --> 0:42:28.960 Any survivor would say that being believed, and their story 0:42:29.000 --> 0:42:33.480 being accepted and heard and given space is probably at 0:42:33.480 --> 0:42:36.000 the core of their healing to be truly believed, to 0:42:36.040 --> 0:42:41.480 be listened to, to feel like this horrible thing didn't 0:42:41.520 --> 0:42:45.040 just happen and get ignored, that it mattered, that they matter. 0:42:45.440 --> 0:42:48.799 Speaking from my personal experience, what I was hoping to 0:42:48.840 --> 0:42:52.560 get from the experience to know that, like, I'm just 0:42:52.600 --> 0:42:55.600 some lady living in the middle of nowhere in Connecticut, 0:42:55.800 --> 0:42:59.000 but these really, really terrible things have happened to me, 0:43:00.360 --> 0:43:03.360 and that matters at least as much as some movie 0:43:03.400 --> 0:43:06.200 you saw that made you like jazz or New York 0:43:06.239 --> 0:43:07.879 City or something like that. 0:43:07.880 --> 0:43:12.200 That you matter, that you're seeing that you're recognized that 0:43:12.280 --> 0:43:15.520 you exist. A trauma survivor will say, my life is 0:43:15.600 --> 0:43:17.960 being defined by this person having done this thing to me, 0:43:18.000 --> 0:43:20.560 and I need to individuate out of that. And you 0:43:20.800 --> 0:43:24.600 being seen and saying that this is real, this is important, 0:43:24.600 --> 0:43:28.640 and you also said something so so important. Fifty accusers 0:43:28.640 --> 0:43:31.239 one hundred accusers was never going to be one. If 0:43:31.280 --> 0:43:34.719 there was a powerful person you needed to come up 0:43:34.760 --> 0:43:39.239 with this vast armada of people who were willing to 0:43:39.239 --> 0:43:43.440 say publicly with at tremendous risk this happened to me, 0:43:43.840 --> 0:43:46.920 and what happened to you. It happened within the context 0:43:47.280 --> 0:43:52.400 this was your father. The impact of that impacted your development. 0:43:52.600 --> 0:43:55.400 This isn't a trauma competition. It's not that there's one 0:43:55.520 --> 0:43:58.799 kind his it was worse than another. But this was 0:43:58.840 --> 0:44:02.839 a person you looked to for caregiving, to put pancakes 0:44:02.920 --> 0:44:06.440 on a plate. The way trauma impacts us is somewhat different, 0:44:06.520 --> 0:44:08.080 you know, a little bit different if it happens to 0:44:08.080 --> 0:44:10.520 you as a child versus an adult, the nature of 0:44:10.560 --> 0:44:14.800 your relationship with that person. All trauma affects us badly. 0:44:15.400 --> 0:44:21.800 Developmental betrayal traumas have a particularly insidious effect because again, 0:44:22.040 --> 0:44:24.319 they're catching you at a time when all of you 0:44:24.440 --> 0:44:27.640 is still being shaped. You know, I watched Alan v. 0:44:27.760 --> 0:44:30.040 Faroh a couple of times, and not only was a 0:44:30.080 --> 0:44:32.759 remarkable way to lay all of that out, it was 0:44:33.239 --> 0:44:37.400 unbelievably well edited and put together and drew us into again. 0:44:37.440 --> 0:44:42.640 For me, as somebody who studies and analyzes narcissistic abuse, 0:44:42.800 --> 0:44:47.000 that entire theme was there, the steadfast way you showed 0:44:47.080 --> 0:44:50.120 up in that Dylan, I personally thought that I'm so 0:44:50.239 --> 0:44:53.720 glad every trauma survivor will see this because you held 0:44:53.719 --> 0:44:56.279 that space as a survivor. I feel privileged to be 0:44:56.280 --> 0:44:58.080 able to tell you that one on one here because 0:44:58.080 --> 0:45:01.520 I was really struck by that. A piece that was 0:45:01.600 --> 0:45:05.160 left open ended in that story was the last time 0:45:05.239 --> 0:45:08.360 you saw your father? How old were you the last 0:45:08.360 --> 0:45:10.600 time you ever had contact with him? 0:45:10.920 --> 0:45:13.759 I have a memory of a last time that I 0:45:13.800 --> 0:45:17.600 saw him. I was sitting by the pond at my 0:45:17.680 --> 0:45:20.400 mom's house, and I was slaying in the water, and 0:45:20.440 --> 0:45:24.319 I just remember watching my mother and father walking up 0:45:24.320 --> 0:45:29.000 the hill to one side, and they were just walking together, 0:45:29.320 --> 0:45:32.319 their backs were to me, and that was the last 0:45:32.400 --> 0:45:36.200 time I ever saw them together. And that's the last 0:45:36.200 --> 0:45:37.520 time I remember ever seeing him. 0:45:37.600 --> 0:45:39.480 Yeah, so you don't remember what age that was, but 0:45:39.520 --> 0:45:41.080 it sounds like it was a very long time ago. 0:45:41.160 --> 0:45:43.880 It was a very long time. I must have been seven. 0:45:44.400 --> 0:45:47.759 I remember that it was during the point where they 0:45:47.800 --> 0:45:54.200 were having trouble because it was a very uncertain time 0:45:54.239 --> 0:45:57.960 for me personally. I was just a kid and seeing 0:45:58.000 --> 0:46:01.960 my family sort of fracture and break apart was very 0:46:02.040 --> 0:46:05.960 difficult for me. I remember I saw my mom crying 0:46:06.320 --> 0:46:10.040 for the first time and just being like just so 0:46:10.160 --> 0:46:13.560 surprised because I'd never seen an adult cry before. It's 0:46:13.680 --> 0:46:18.000 very sad to look back. The memories themselves evoke feelings 0:46:18.000 --> 0:46:23.600 in me of loss and grief, and it's very fractured, 0:46:23.640 --> 0:46:25.080 but very it's very real. 0:46:26.840 --> 0:46:29.880 It's very hard to live in that space. And for children, 0:46:29.960 --> 0:46:32.600 the timeframes and the ages and all of that, it 0:46:32.640 --> 0:46:35.759 becomes a morphisical. You can recall the pain better than 0:46:35.760 --> 0:46:38.480 you can recall a date or an age or something 0:46:38.560 --> 0:46:38.919 like that. 0:46:39.000 --> 0:46:42.640 He did try to contact me twice that I know of. 0:46:43.160 --> 0:46:47.520 It was around eighteen, but I was not eighteen. I 0:46:47.560 --> 0:46:52.440 was older, and I was home and I got a letter, 0:46:53.200 --> 0:46:57.160 and I never get letters, so I was confused. And 0:46:57.200 --> 0:47:00.520 it was postmarked from London, which was even more confusing. 0:47:00.719 --> 0:47:03.840 There was no handwriting. It was all typed. There was 0:47:03.920 --> 0:47:07.640 no return address. It was just postmarked from London. And 0:47:07.880 --> 0:47:11.800 I opened it and it was two or three pages typed, 0:47:12.760 --> 0:47:17.160 and it opened up with now that you're eighteen years old, 0:47:17.480 --> 0:47:21.920 and I thought to myself, I'm not eighteen. But I 0:47:22.000 --> 0:47:24.040 was very confused, so I skipped to the end and 0:47:24.080 --> 0:47:27.600 it was signed your father or dad or something like that, 0:47:28.000 --> 0:47:32.040 and I read the letter and it was basically a summons. 0:47:32.800 --> 0:47:36.359 It was I want you to appear before me. I'm 0:47:36.400 --> 0:47:39.560 going to explain what really happened. He talked about sending 0:47:39.600 --> 0:47:43.239 a helicopter and meeting me on a park bench in 0:47:43.360 --> 0:47:49.319 Central Park, and I was just frozen with terror and 0:47:49.360 --> 0:47:53.120 I had a complete, complete panic attack, and my mom 0:47:53.160 --> 0:47:58.239 took the letter and I never saw it again. The 0:47:58.320 --> 0:48:00.759 second time that I know of that he that he 0:48:00.800 --> 0:48:05.480 wrote to me, I was at college and for some reason, 0:48:05.520 --> 0:48:07.960 I was checking my mailbox, which was I never got 0:48:08.000 --> 0:48:10.400 mail because I was close enough from home that I 0:48:10.400 --> 0:48:12.239 could get anything that I wanted, and I had a 0:48:12.239 --> 0:48:15.080 slip in there that said I received a package, and 0:48:15.120 --> 0:48:18.719 I was again I was baffled, because nobody sends me 0:48:18.760 --> 0:48:22.560 mail except for him. Apparently. I claim the package and 0:48:22.600 --> 0:48:28.160 I'm handed this enormous Manila envelope, about the size of 0:48:28.560 --> 0:48:32.200 a big textbook and just as heavy, and I look 0:48:32.280 --> 0:48:34.879 on the front and it's addressed to my real name, 0:48:35.040 --> 0:48:38.240 not Dylan, the name I changed to that I keep private, 0:48:38.800 --> 0:48:42.960 and it was my address at Bard College, and it 0:48:43.080 --> 0:48:46.359 was marked with a return somewhere in New York, I 0:48:46.400 --> 0:48:50.640 think Layman or Lyman, something like that, and I was like, 0:48:50.680 --> 0:48:53.160 I don't know this person, but they obviously know me. 0:48:53.719 --> 0:48:56.000 So I take the package and I head to the 0:48:56.040 --> 0:48:58.719 campus center and I'm sitting at a table with some coffee, 0:48:58.760 --> 0:49:05.000 and I'm opening this package and out spills hundreds of 0:49:05.080 --> 0:49:11.200 photographs and some of them even have like little thumbtack 0:49:11.320 --> 0:49:16.000 marks in them, so they were hanging up somewhere, and 0:49:16.040 --> 0:49:19.680 they're all of me, and they're all of him. And 0:49:20.239 --> 0:49:23.360 there's a note written on like a piece ofly legal paper, 0:49:24.880 --> 0:49:30.480 and this one is handwritten, and it said, uh, basically, 0:49:31.200 --> 0:49:34.799 I sent you these photos to remind you of the 0:49:34.840 --> 0:49:40.440 good times. I want you to know that I miss you, 0:49:41.040 --> 0:49:43.759 and soon he misses you, and our daughters think of 0:49:43.800 --> 0:49:46.759 you as their sister. And it was signed love for 0:49:46.800 --> 0:49:48.440 your father. I freaked out. 0:49:49.880 --> 0:49:54.279 In either of those letters, was there any sense of awareness, 0:49:54.520 --> 0:49:59.520 even a tiny bit of what he had did, what 0:49:59.640 --> 0:50:02.960 all of this had done to you, the psychological hardship 0:50:03.000 --> 0:50:06.080 you'd endured. I'm not even expecting that he would cup 0:50:06.120 --> 0:50:09.279 to anything that was any nothing, none. 0:50:09.280 --> 0:50:12.080 If it was about me, it was all about so 0:50:12.120 --> 0:50:12.840 it was all about it. 0:50:13.080 --> 0:50:16.319 Yeah, it's so entitled. I'm ready you will show up 0:50:16.360 --> 0:50:18.479 at this time, and I'm ready to see you because 0:50:18.520 --> 0:50:21.480 it works for me. And going to send you all 0:50:21.840 --> 0:50:26.200 these pictures. The level of manipulativeness of a gesture like that, 0:50:26.520 --> 0:50:30.560 with no contextualization, no awareness of your process, no sense 0:50:30.600 --> 0:50:32.960 of boundary, it is, you know, I not that I'm 0:50:33.000 --> 0:50:35.560 surprised by it. I mean, to me, it's textbook. I 0:50:35.600 --> 0:50:38.840 think it's a hurt, a hurt for you, a hurt 0:50:38.840 --> 0:50:41.919 that anyone would be put through this level. Again, we're 0:50:41.920 --> 0:50:45.520 back to the unseeing you don't matter what you've been through, 0:50:45.640 --> 0:50:49.200 doesn't matter. I'm ready, I want what I want, so 0:50:49.560 --> 0:50:53.040 here I come. And then even using these manipulative posturings 0:50:53.040 --> 0:50:55.200 of well these folks, these these people think of you 0:50:55.239 --> 0:50:56.440 as your their sister. 0:50:56.600 --> 0:51:00.200 You have no for clarifying that because I'm all so 0:51:00.280 --> 0:51:04.200 their aunts. Yeah, you know, like you're also my brother 0:51:04.280 --> 0:51:08.120 in law, okay, and your wife is my sister and 0:51:08.200 --> 0:51:11.719 my step mom, so like it's nice to know how 0:51:11.760 --> 0:51:14.040 I fit in your warped little family unit. 0:51:14.400 --> 0:51:16.680 Yes, but it's only from his point of view. It's 0:51:16.680 --> 0:51:21.200 just the manipulativeness to just and also that sense of 0:51:22.120 --> 0:51:26.400 feeling so entitled that you could just breach the wall 0:51:26.880 --> 0:51:29.359 into a life that someone's constructed. I mean, I still 0:51:29.400 --> 0:51:32.080 think the college years are very fragile years. Right, You're 0:51:32.080 --> 0:51:35.040 an emerging adult, you're coming out of adolescence into adulthood, 0:51:35.280 --> 0:51:38.839 you're finding yourself independently, autonomously. It's a hard time of 0:51:39.080 --> 0:51:43.000 life for anybody that entitlement that like. And I'm just 0:51:43.040 --> 0:51:46.000 gonna plow right into your life, not even stopping to 0:51:46.080 --> 0:51:50.319 think how this would affect the other person. That kind 0:51:50.320 --> 0:51:54.640 of entitled encroachment as it were. It is so unsettling, 0:51:54.680 --> 0:51:58.440 and it is so unempathic. I just just is wrong. 0:51:58.680 --> 0:52:02.200 I freaked out completely in the middle of the campus center. 0:52:02.280 --> 0:52:05.719 I started crying, and I immediately I went to my 0:52:05.840 --> 0:52:10.120 friend's dorm and I called my mom's lawyer to see 0:52:10.120 --> 0:52:13.279 if there was anything, and there wasn't, because apparently two 0:52:13.400 --> 0:52:17.040 letters doesn't constitute harassment, but it does, maybe not legally, 0:52:17.120 --> 0:52:21.960 but emotionally. Emotionally, I felt very violated. I felt very 0:52:22.000 --> 0:52:26.960 harassed and stalked almost because he wasn't contacting me at 0:52:26.960 --> 0:52:29.040 a place that he knew he looked me up. 0:52:29.400 --> 0:52:33.120 It spoke to so much manipulation. It wasn't transparent, right. 0:52:33.400 --> 0:52:36.800 It had this feeling of subterfuge to it, which is worse. 0:52:36.840 --> 0:52:40.279 The fake name to Obviously, if he'd put who it 0:52:40.320 --> 0:52:42.399 was from on the envelope. I wouldn't have opened it, 0:52:43.040 --> 0:52:46.560 but he knew that, and to get me to open it, 0:52:46.880 --> 0:52:50.279 he went that extra mile, and that really just sent 0:52:50.360 --> 0:52:52.920 a shiver down my spine even now, just like thinking 0:52:52.960 --> 0:52:53.440 about it. 0:52:53.880 --> 0:53:03.160 My conversation will continue after this break. You had talked 0:53:03.160 --> 0:53:06.520 in the beginning about grooming, this idea of a long 0:53:06.880 --> 0:53:10.680 drawn out process of using a position of power to 0:53:10.760 --> 0:53:15.480 gain a less empowered person's trust, isolating them, making them 0:53:15.480 --> 0:53:18.759 dependent on you, and then praying on them. What's so 0:53:18.920 --> 0:53:21.920 interesting is that sort of another kind of grooming process 0:53:21.920 --> 0:53:24.279 seemed to be sort of starting up again, going to 0:53:24.320 --> 0:53:26.920 send these entitled letters, going to send these sorts of 0:53:27.239 --> 0:53:30.719 memories and to draw you back in. It's almost like 0:53:30.840 --> 0:53:33.920 we're combining two processes, the process of grooming, but the 0:53:34.000 --> 0:53:37.239 process we talk about in toxic relationships, of hoovering, of 0:53:37.280 --> 0:53:40.120 pulling someone back in. It's like hoover grooming, Like it's 0:53:40.160 --> 0:53:43.480 two things happening at the same time. It's so manipulative, 0:53:43.520 --> 0:53:46.080 and the piece I struggle with most is that it's 0:53:46.320 --> 0:53:50.880 there's absolutely no consideration of how this thing will land 0:53:51.440 --> 0:53:54.840 in this other person's life. Yeah, got to call you 0:53:54.880 --> 0:53:58.160 out on your language again, Dylan, you said you freaked out. 0:53:58.480 --> 0:54:02.800 You didn't freak out, so you had an expectable reaction 0:54:03.440 --> 0:54:07.360 to something this distressing coming into your world. All of 0:54:07.400 --> 0:54:10.600 your reactions, Dylan, have been exactly what we would expect. 0:54:10.640 --> 0:54:14.960 They're not snapping, they're not freaking out. They're actually responding 0:54:15.120 --> 0:54:20.080 exactly as we'd expect someone who'd feel incredibly unsafe to react. 0:54:20.200 --> 0:54:24.279 And I think I'm still learning the language to communicate 0:54:24.280 --> 0:54:26.560 with myself when I say things like snapped, when I 0:54:26.560 --> 0:54:28.879 say things like freaked out. And I'm glad you called 0:54:28.920 --> 0:54:31.200 me out on that because it's true, and I need 0:54:31.239 --> 0:54:33.839 to be more gentle with myself and the way I 0:54:34.000 --> 0:54:37.319 talk about myself and my experiences, because there is still 0:54:37.320 --> 0:54:41.560 a part of me that is dismissive, almost like you're like, oh, well, 0:54:42.280 --> 0:54:45.160 now I've come so far, like why does this even matter? 0:54:45.440 --> 0:54:46.000 But it does. 0:54:46.480 --> 0:54:49.480 It matters. It will always matter the pieces that you 0:54:49.520 --> 0:54:52.719 can hold compassion for. It's mattering, and it will not 0:54:53.040 --> 0:54:55.400 be the light you navigate by, it won't be what 0:54:55.520 --> 0:54:57.840 guide you, won't be the most important thing about you, 0:54:57.960 --> 0:55:01.319 not at all, but it matters, and it's part of 0:55:01.400 --> 0:55:06.000 you and your body and your psyche will in some way, 0:55:06.040 --> 0:55:09.560 shape or form, undercut your sense of trust in other people. 0:55:09.880 --> 0:55:12.880 These are the things that trauma survivors grapple with for 0:55:12.960 --> 0:55:16.160 the long term. And the unkindness of the world is, oh, 0:55:16.200 --> 0:55:18.960 come on, that was thirty years ago. And I really 0:55:19.000 --> 0:55:21.640 want to snap back at folks and say, you know what, 0:55:22.239 --> 0:55:25.160 that person's nervous system didn't get the memo that it 0:55:25.239 --> 0:55:28.000 was thirty years ago, because the way it's encoded and 0:55:28.080 --> 0:55:30.919 body and mind is that it could have happened five 0:55:31.000 --> 0:55:34.880 minutes ago. That the nervous system just lives to protect you, 0:55:35.160 --> 0:55:37.719 and so you do continue to react. And what we 0:55:37.800 --> 0:55:41.319 teach trauma survivors is it's this beautiful thing called our 0:55:41.360 --> 0:55:44.480 body and mind trying to keep us safe when the 0:55:44.480 --> 0:55:47.800 rest of the damn world didn't. So thank you very much. 0:55:48.160 --> 0:55:50.520 This is my body doing what it needs to. So 0:55:50.640 --> 0:55:52.560 don't you dare judge me. That's what I want to 0:55:52.600 --> 0:55:54.600 say for people. But that's probably a little heavy handed 0:55:54.600 --> 0:55:56.799 at a dinner party. So I'm like God, but like you, now, 0:55:57.120 --> 0:55:59.640 this is how the nervous system works. But that's all 0:55:59.680 --> 0:56:03.439 that's been happening. It's creating safety, it's creating trust where 0:56:03.480 --> 0:56:06.160 all of that was taken away. And I always feel 0:56:06.160 --> 0:56:09.919 like forever survivors are often tapping on the thin ice 0:56:10.000 --> 0:56:12.319 on a pond on an icy day, like is this 0:56:12.440 --> 0:56:14.239 going to be strong enough for me to walk on? 0:56:14.560 --> 0:56:17.000 Whereas everyone else seems to be running onto the pond 0:56:17.080 --> 0:56:20.400 with reckless abandon The trauma survivors are sort of tapping 0:56:20.440 --> 0:56:22.719 and thinking this could crack and I could go into 0:56:22.760 --> 0:56:26.600 that freezing cold water, to which any survivor would need 0:56:26.640 --> 0:56:28.239 to know. You tap on that ice as long as 0:56:28.320 --> 0:56:30.560 you need until you feel safe enough to stand on it, 0:56:30.920 --> 0:56:33.160 and that's you taking care of you. And that's actually 0:56:33.160 --> 0:56:36.480 a really important, beautiful thing. And that's the permission. Just 0:56:36.520 --> 0:56:39.120 like you'd give your daughter permission to take her time 0:56:39.239 --> 0:56:41.880 to do something until she felt safe. It's just to 0:56:41.920 --> 0:56:43.360 show yourself the same grace. 0:56:43.520 --> 0:56:46.759 Yeah. Now I'm still very much learning about myself, how 0:56:46.800 --> 0:56:51.680 to treat myself, and also re acclimating to the world 0:56:51.680 --> 0:56:55.120 around me, learning how to form secure attachments. That's a 0:56:55.200 --> 0:56:58.080 term I learned from my therapist, because that's definitely not 0:56:58.239 --> 0:57:01.200 a thing that I had, and try to navigate the pond. 0:57:01.480 --> 0:57:03.560 Like you said, in some ways, I can take a 0:57:03.600 --> 0:57:07.799 couple steps onto the pond and enjoy the ice. But 0:57:07.880 --> 0:57:10.280 then I have to stop and I have to tap again, 0:57:10.400 --> 0:57:13.880 and I have to allow myself to do that instead 0:57:13.920 --> 0:57:17.080 of being frustrated with myself sometimes, and that's when language 0:57:17.120 --> 0:57:19.680 like I snapped or I freaked out like comes up 0:57:19.760 --> 0:57:23.040 because I do get frustrated with myself because it has 0:57:23.120 --> 0:57:27.440 been thirty years and I want so badly to enjoy 0:57:27.480 --> 0:57:29.200 the world the way everyone else does. 0:57:29.360 --> 0:57:31.240 For keep in mind, you say it's been thirty years, 0:57:31.320 --> 0:57:34.160 I'd argue it's been well, you wrote that last up 0:57:34.200 --> 0:57:37.280 in twenty eighteen, it's been five years. It's been six years. 0:57:37.320 --> 0:57:40.440 And it continues right, people continue to talk about it. 0:57:40.440 --> 0:57:42.800 You could turn on the TV and see actors and 0:57:43.080 --> 0:57:46.360 performers that have said things that really, you know, put 0:57:46.440 --> 0:57:49.520 you on edge, in validated you. So it's not just 0:57:49.520 --> 0:57:53.080 thirty years ago. It could be as recently as yesterday, no, like. 0:57:53.080 --> 0:57:55.840 Even today, Like right before we started talking, I got 0:57:55.840 --> 0:57:59.440 a message from somebody about Barbie movie that was directed 0:57:59.440 --> 0:58:02.320 by Greta and they were like, what was her stance 0:58:02.360 --> 0:58:04.280 on all of that? And I was just like, Okay, 0:58:04.320 --> 0:58:05.840 well I'm going to bring you up to speed with 0:58:05.880 --> 0:58:09.240 what I know about greta kerwig, Like you know, it 0:58:09.280 --> 0:58:12.400 pops up unexpectedly in my life from time to time, 0:58:12.560 --> 0:58:16.560 and thankfully I've gotten from a place that doesn't tank 0:58:16.640 --> 0:58:20.560 me for three weeks anymore. I'm happy to say that 0:58:20.720 --> 0:58:24.720 it'll make me uncomfortable for maybe ten minutes now, but 0:58:24.920 --> 0:58:27.560 it doesn't disrupt my life the way it used to, 0:58:28.000 --> 0:58:31.160 which speaks to progress, which makes me feel very encouraged 0:58:31.320 --> 0:58:33.920 that five years from now I might feel even better. 0:58:34.040 --> 0:58:36.360 I would be willing to bet a lot that you 0:58:36.400 --> 0:58:38.920 will be feeling better because that progress of things not 0:58:39.000 --> 0:58:41.800 throwing you off for three weeks is huge progress. And 0:58:41.840 --> 0:58:45.560 being aware that that's happening and that some of those 0:58:45.880 --> 0:58:48.320 dark nights of the soul that will come up, that's 0:58:48.400 --> 0:58:51.160 just sort of the that's the path forward, and in 0:58:51.160 --> 0:58:53.120 a way saying Okay, this is what it is supposed 0:58:53.120 --> 0:58:55.800 to be. It's a really really big deal. Standing strongly 0:58:55.840 --> 0:58:58.000 in your role as a mother, as a wife, in 0:58:58.040 --> 0:59:01.520 all these other supportive relationships you have. Supportive relationships are 0:59:01.560 --> 0:59:04.800 so important, but right I mean, I've imagine they've been 0:59:05.040 --> 0:59:05.680 huge for you. 0:59:06.200 --> 0:59:10.520 Yeah. Now, I would not be where I am without 0:59:10.520 --> 0:59:14.800 my husband, without my daughter, without my mom, without my friends. 0:59:15.000 --> 0:59:17.760 I'm very lucky that I have this support network that 0:59:18.400 --> 0:59:23.880 is just so here for me, and it's never a burden, 0:59:23.960 --> 0:59:28.880 it's never a hardship. I don't feel like I'm a 0:59:28.920 --> 0:59:33.080 negative force in the people that I loves lives. I'm 0:59:33.120 --> 0:59:35.320 just incredibly, incredibly lucky. 0:59:35.440 --> 0:59:37.680 You also made that happen. It's not just luck. I 0:59:37.720 --> 0:59:41.000 think it's so wonderful to hear you do have a 0:59:41.040 --> 0:59:43.760 happy marriage. I think many people feel when they've endured 0:59:43.800 --> 0:59:46.640 trauma that they won't have the opportunity to craft a 0:59:46.640 --> 0:59:50.880 successful adult intimate close relationship. That's always the fear that 0:59:50.960 --> 0:59:53.360 I can't do this. I've been too harmed and you've 0:59:53.400 --> 0:59:53.800 done that. 0:59:54.240 --> 0:59:57.840 I read a real keeper, and I managed to keep him. 0:59:58.200 --> 1:00:02.280 That's amazing to I mean, he actually did break up 1:00:02.360 --> 1:00:06.400 with me once, very early on. It was interesting because 1:00:06.480 --> 1:00:10.400 it was because early on in our relationship I expressed 1:00:11.360 --> 1:00:16.120 a disinterest in sex basically, and he was like, why 1:00:16.200 --> 1:00:18.240 is that And I was like, well, I'm you know, 1:00:18.320 --> 1:00:20.480 I told him the whole story and this is just 1:00:20.600 --> 1:00:24.080 a thing that you're never going to change. And to 1:00:24.160 --> 1:00:28.880 my surprise, he said, I can't accept that. I was 1:00:29.400 --> 1:00:33.160 a bit bowled over by that. Because other relationships I 1:00:33.200 --> 1:00:35.800 had just like, oh, that's really sad, but you know, 1:00:36.000 --> 1:00:40.720 like whatever, Like, as long as you'll have sex with me, 1:00:41.320 --> 1:00:43.919 we'll figure it out, you know. But he didn't want that. 1:00:44.320 --> 1:00:48.840 He wanted a relationship with a whole person, which which 1:00:48.880 --> 1:00:51.920 struck me. It just completely caught me off guard. And 1:00:52.000 --> 1:00:54.040 he said, if this isn't something that you're willing to 1:00:54.120 --> 1:00:58.480 work on and heal from, then I don't see any 1:00:58.760 --> 1:01:02.200 future between us. And I really liked this guy, but 1:01:02.240 --> 1:01:04.240 I was also very angry. So I let him break 1:01:04.320 --> 1:01:06.680 up with me, and then three hours later I called 1:01:06.720 --> 1:01:09.120 him back and I was like, Okay, I've calmed down 1:01:09.160 --> 1:01:12.800 a little bit, and I think you may have had 1:01:12.840 --> 1:01:16.880 a point, and I'm willing to examine this a little 1:01:16.920 --> 1:01:20.080 bit more thoughtfully if it means we can be together. 1:01:20.960 --> 1:01:24.880 It's a great story, and it's also the reminder that 1:01:25.240 --> 1:01:29.640 in a healthy adult relationship, a healthy relationship of any kind, 1:01:30.120 --> 1:01:33.240 that each of you, especially when it's two adults, each 1:01:33.280 --> 1:01:36.240 of you are the protector of the other one's vulnerabilities. 1:01:36.440 --> 1:01:38.520 He learned what was vulnerable in you, and I'm sure 1:01:38.520 --> 1:01:42.400 you've learned what's vulnerable in him. In an unhealthy relationship, 1:01:42.440 --> 1:01:46.920 those vulnerabilities are exploited or weaponized. In a healthy relationship, 1:01:46.960 --> 1:01:49.360 we protect them. It's almost as though we hold their 1:01:49.400 --> 1:01:51.080 hand as a limp through something. 1:01:51.320 --> 1:01:55.040 It's true, and seeing him, seeing the way he stepped up, 1:01:55.800 --> 1:02:02.120 he's become my fiercest advocate and protector. It's changed everything 1:02:02.360 --> 1:02:06.480 for me because even just knowing that that is possible, 1:02:06.560 --> 1:02:11.520 let alone for me, I never imagined, Especially around the 1:02:11.520 --> 1:02:15.200 time that I met him, when I was very much 1:02:15.320 --> 1:02:19.800 struggling with my trauma and my sexuality, it was very 1:02:19.840 --> 1:02:23.560 difficult for me to sort of parse that language and 1:02:23.960 --> 1:02:27.960 understand at the root of it what he wanted was 1:02:28.400 --> 1:02:31.000 for me to be okay. He saw that the way 1:02:31.000 --> 1:02:36.560 I was maneuvering around my trauma was not healthy, and 1:02:36.680 --> 1:02:40.120 he called me out. And he continues to call me out, 1:02:40.200 --> 1:02:43.680 which is good for me. He never lets me become 1:02:43.800 --> 1:02:47.880 complacent in a space of negative trauma. He's always there 1:02:47.920 --> 1:02:50.640 to be like, Okay, let's work through it. 1:02:51.440 --> 1:02:54.600 You've just given a profound lesson to all survivors and 1:02:54.640 --> 1:02:58.160 partners of survivors, because I think sometimes partners of survivors 1:02:58.600 --> 1:03:02.000 don't always know how to help their partner navigate trauma. 1:03:02.400 --> 1:03:05.400 You know, when am I stepping in too much, too little, 1:03:05.720 --> 1:03:09.280 But it's to see that potential for growth in your partner, 1:03:09.600 --> 1:03:12.240 to keep them safe safe. I'm here, I'm going to 1:03:12.320 --> 1:03:14.320 keep you safe. It's almost like teaching a child to 1:03:14.400 --> 1:03:16.520 jump into the deep end of the pool. I'm not 1:03:16.560 --> 1:03:19.000 going to let anything happen to you, and I'm right 1:03:19.040 --> 1:03:21.080 here and I'm going to catch you. But you've got 1:03:21.160 --> 1:03:23.920 to jump in, and that's really what he was giving you. 1:03:24.160 --> 1:03:26.800 I'm so happy, so so happy for you and Dylan. 1:03:26.960 --> 1:03:29.960 What are your relationships like with your family of origin. 1:03:30.000 --> 1:03:32.320 Do you still feel connected in that space? It sounds 1:03:32.400 --> 1:03:34.600 like you're still close to your mom. And how are 1:03:34.640 --> 1:03:35.440 they all doing. 1:03:35.560 --> 1:03:40.720 They're good, and I've had to sort of accept whatever 1:03:41.080 --> 1:03:44.480 distance they want from me. I have to make space 1:03:44.520 --> 1:03:47.080 for their trauma as well. I love them all to 1:03:47.120 --> 1:03:48.800 the moon and back. I mean, I would take a 1:03:48.800 --> 1:03:51.000 bullet for any one of them. I just hope that 1:03:51.040 --> 1:03:53.840 they're happy in doing well, even the ones I don't 1:03:53.840 --> 1:03:57.560 speak to as regularly. There's a lot of us, so 1:03:57.720 --> 1:04:01.000 obviously you have some of us. We are in better 1:04:01.040 --> 1:04:04.680 contact than others. They're very much my family. 1:04:05.040 --> 1:04:07.680 We talked about your daughter at the beginning. Do you 1:04:07.800 --> 1:04:10.320 think you will speak with her about your experience at 1:04:10.360 --> 1:04:11.920 some point eventually. 1:04:12.600 --> 1:04:15.480 Event I've thought long and hard about how I want 1:04:15.520 --> 1:04:21.640 to communicate this to her, and obviously there have been 1:04:21.680 --> 1:04:25.080 sort of like many conversations that have arisen because my 1:04:25.200 --> 1:04:29.960 daughter asked at one point, where is your dad? Why 1:04:30.000 --> 1:04:37.440 don't I talk to my grandpa? And that was uncomfortable. 1:04:38.280 --> 1:04:41.160 I gave her a bit of a non answer, just 1:04:41.360 --> 1:04:45.360 that he's not around, that I don't talk to him, 1:04:45.560 --> 1:04:48.120 and that you're never going to talk to him either, 1:04:50.120 --> 1:04:52.440 And she's been very accepting of that so far. But 1:04:52.560 --> 1:04:56.640 I understand that she's going to have questions in the 1:04:56.640 --> 1:04:59.760 long run, and I want to keep that channel of 1:04:59.800 --> 1:05:02.800 care communication open with her that I don't want her 1:05:02.800 --> 1:05:05.120 to feel like there's anything that she can't ask me. 1:05:05.560 --> 1:05:08.360 I've sort of internalized that as there will be a 1:05:08.400 --> 1:05:11.360 moment and I'll know when that is when that discussion 1:05:11.400 --> 1:05:14.560 will happen. And I want it to happen, because, yes, 1:05:14.640 --> 1:05:17.040 it's important for me that she does understand what I've 1:05:17.080 --> 1:05:20.080 been through and how that's shaped me, and to have 1:05:20.160 --> 1:05:23.560 her understand that it's important to me. But I don't 1:05:23.600 --> 1:05:26.520 want it to be in any way damaging to her 1:05:26.800 --> 1:05:30.240 when that discussion does happen. So I'm just sort of 1:05:30.400 --> 1:05:33.720 keeping an ear out, keeping an eye out, and answering 1:05:33.720 --> 1:05:36.320 little questions here and when they come up. 1:05:36.400 --> 1:05:39.440 Oh absolutely, it will evolve, it will unfold, you know, 1:05:39.720 --> 1:05:42.360 turn like the pages of a book. She will get older. 1:05:42.920 --> 1:05:46.080 You will also have come further in your process of healing, 1:05:46.600 --> 1:05:50.240 and you've given her the essential tool that one day 1:05:50.240 --> 1:05:52.040 when she does talk to you about it. You're giving 1:05:52.120 --> 1:05:54.520 that to her now, which is a secure attachment, a 1:05:54.600 --> 1:05:57.640 safe space, a place where she can fully be herself, 1:05:57.640 --> 1:06:00.640 where she doesn't feel ever judged, where she all feels 1:06:00.920 --> 1:06:04.120 safe and seen. It's the single greatest gift that any 1:06:04.240 --> 1:06:06.400 parent can give their child, which is a sense of 1:06:06.440 --> 1:06:08.760 safety in the world and a sense of being seen 1:06:09.080 --> 1:06:12.560 and recognized and loved unconditionally. And so you're giving her 1:06:12.600 --> 1:06:14.960 all of that. You have gone to this process of 1:06:15.000 --> 1:06:20.320 going from an experiencer to a coper to a survivor. 1:06:21.560 --> 1:06:24.400 I would say, now, a thriver, you really are. I mean, 1:06:24.400 --> 1:06:28.400 you're doing remarkable things. What has been most useful for 1:06:28.480 --> 1:06:30.240 you in this process? 1:06:30.440 --> 1:06:35.040 Gosh, I mean, it's been the collective experience of having 1:06:35.080 --> 1:06:38.760 the support network, finding a good therapist, finding medication that 1:06:38.840 --> 1:06:41.960 works for me. It's been trying to get out of 1:06:42.000 --> 1:06:44.600 my comfort zone a little bit every now and then, 1:06:44.960 --> 1:06:46.880 even if it's just to, you know, pick my daughter 1:06:46.960 --> 1:06:50.440 up from school, which is something that I have anxiety about, 1:06:50.680 --> 1:06:54.439 being gentle with myself when I can self care, self care, 1:06:54.520 --> 1:07:01.600 self care, and I mean the chances when I have 1:07:01.760 --> 1:07:04.120 been able to talk about it, to feel seen and 1:07:04.200 --> 1:07:09.200 validated and listen to that's been remarkable as well, people 1:07:09.200 --> 1:07:11.360 who have reached out to me to let me know 1:07:11.600 --> 1:07:14.800 that I've had some sort of impact. It's humbling and 1:07:14.840 --> 1:07:17.720 it's also incredibly healing to know that I'm not alone 1:07:17.920 --> 1:07:18.280 out there. 1:07:18.440 --> 1:07:20.000 I'm glad you said that, because it's not going to 1:07:20.000 --> 1:07:21.880 ever be one thing. It is the all of it, 1:07:21.920 --> 1:07:23.520 and I'm glad you laid it out in the way 1:07:23.560 --> 1:07:26.439 you did, because I think anyone going through any form 1:07:26.480 --> 1:07:31.400 of healing from trauma, particularly early life betrayal trauma, has 1:07:31.440 --> 1:07:34.600 to understand that there is no one thing, that it 1:07:34.680 --> 1:07:37.480 is all of it. It's a daily process. There'll be 1:07:37.920 --> 1:07:39.960 some days where you are five steps forward and then 1:07:40.000 --> 1:07:43.360 though six steps back. That's the nature of it, and 1:07:43.400 --> 1:07:45.560 it's to be gentle with yourself every day and in 1:07:45.600 --> 1:07:49.360 the macro, you are stepping forward like you are going forward. 1:07:49.360 --> 1:07:51.920 And I do particularly appreciate the one thing you had 1:07:51.920 --> 1:07:54.800 said which is so important to healing, which is sometimes 1:07:54.840 --> 1:07:57.960 getting out of your comfort zone because you've created safe spaces. 1:07:58.000 --> 1:08:00.000 Getting out of the comfort zone. It's not always easy 1:08:00.120 --> 1:08:02.400 for people who are surviving trauma, but that every so 1:08:02.520 --> 1:08:04.880 often doing that, you recognize that you build up some 1:08:04.960 --> 1:08:07.360 new sort of new muscles by doing that. 1:08:07.480 --> 1:08:09.400 So I think, yeah, and I'm not saying, you know, 1:08:09.560 --> 1:08:14.520 like go bungee jumping immediately, Like it's little things done 1:08:14.720 --> 1:08:17.799 when you feel comfortable. I feel like if there's something 1:08:17.840 --> 1:08:21.200 that like you're really hitting a wall up against, maybe 1:08:21.240 --> 1:08:25.080 don't do that just yet. But things like picking up 1:08:25.080 --> 1:08:28.240 my daughter from school, or running an errand to CBS 1:08:28.360 --> 1:08:32.240 or you know, like something small like that. It helps 1:08:32.240 --> 1:08:34.639 give me a little nudge to say, like you can 1:08:34.720 --> 1:08:37.519 do that. You did it, and you were safe, and 1:08:37.880 --> 1:08:41.519 you accomplished everything you need to accomplish. Yeahhi, even if 1:08:41.520 --> 1:08:43.680 it's just getting your daughter from point A to point B, 1:08:44.000 --> 1:08:45.679 that's that's a thing you did. 1:08:45.960 --> 1:08:50.559 Good job, exactly, good job, because don't underestimate Sometimes it 1:08:50.640 --> 1:08:53.519 is those trips to the pharmacy or the grocery store, 1:08:53.680 --> 1:08:56.640 the school pickup, that you start building this sense of 1:08:56.680 --> 1:08:59.160 efficacy like Okay, I did it. I could try that again. 1:08:59.520 --> 1:09:04.400 As being appropriately congratulatory of yourself, I think is you know, 1:09:04.479 --> 1:09:06.240 like get yourself some chocolate for that. 1:09:07.880 --> 1:09:12.479 I'm done with that ultimate reward, so it's yes. Oh 1:09:12.520 --> 1:09:13.240 my gosh. 1:09:13.320 --> 1:09:16.400 It's just been fascinating to hear your thoughts on all 1:09:16.439 --> 1:09:19.759 of this because I often wonder what would an expert 1:09:19.840 --> 1:09:22.200 think about like X, Y and Z. It's been really 1:09:22.240 --> 1:09:26.160 fascinating to have that put into context for me, especially 1:09:26.200 --> 1:09:30.160 you know, the letters and behaviors, and also the reminder 1:09:30.479 --> 1:09:31.960 to speak more gently to myself. 1:09:32.000 --> 1:09:34.160 It's been an absolute pleasure. Healing from any form of 1:09:34.200 --> 1:09:38.960 betrayal trauma is a very very difficult experience to have 1:09:39.000 --> 1:09:41.679 to do that when it's a story in the public eye, 1:09:42.040 --> 1:09:44.960 when there were institutional betrayals happening at the same time, 1:09:45.000 --> 1:09:48.440 when all of that was happening, it can feel almost impossible. 1:09:48.479 --> 1:09:50.960 And really, what you've shared with us is that it's 1:09:51.040 --> 1:09:53.439 not there were many bumps in the road, This was 1:09:53.560 --> 1:09:57.040 not an easy process, that it's still a work in progress, 1:09:57.120 --> 1:10:01.240 but that you you're in an amazing, really remarkable, beautiful place. 1:10:01.360 --> 1:10:04.200 Your voice is beautiful and strong, and the way you 1:10:04.240 --> 1:10:07.320 show up and to do that while you're being invalidated 1:10:07.640 --> 1:10:10.120 by the world. I cannot think of many things harder 1:10:10.160 --> 1:10:13.639 to do from my seat as a psychologist and hearing 1:10:13.680 --> 1:10:16.519 this will help so many people who have had different 1:10:16.520 --> 1:10:20.880 forms of betrayal trauma, experience different kinds of toxic relationships 1:10:20.960 --> 1:10:23.880 and are seeing that it is a process. Yours was 1:10:23.920 --> 1:10:27.519 a really like a beautiful revelation on how this process 1:10:27.560 --> 1:10:30.080 can unfold. So again, I can't thank you enough, Dylan. 1:10:29.960 --> 1:10:31.920 Thank you so much, Thank you for saying so. 1:10:33.280 --> 1:10:37.200 Here are my takeaways from my conversation with Dylan in 1:10:37.280 --> 1:10:41.679 our first takeaway. Healing from betrayal and trauma is also 1:10:41.960 --> 1:10:47.400 about accepting uncomfortable feelings. Many trauma survivors will find themselves 1:10:47.400 --> 1:10:51.840 facing chronic self doubt and shame, and even times when, 1:10:51.840 --> 1:10:56.120 as Dylan shared, she would feel both joyous and jealous 1:10:56.640 --> 1:11:01.200 when witnessing the family she had created and the healthy 1:11:01.240 --> 1:11:07.400 relationship between child and father within that family. That is normal, 1:11:07.760 --> 1:11:12.160 but it can also be unsettling. Uncomfortable feelings are part 1:11:12.439 --> 1:11:16.040 of this process of healing and learning to let them flow. 1:11:16.120 --> 1:11:21.160 Through us without judging them and accepting that this is 1:11:21.240 --> 1:11:26.240 what healing and integration are about is a part of healing. 1:11:27.040 --> 1:11:30.920 For this next takeaway, Dylan talks about the idea of 1:11:30.960 --> 1:11:35.679 the perfect survivor, whom she frames as a trauma victim 1:11:35.720 --> 1:11:38.600 who shows up with the right kind of evidence and 1:11:38.800 --> 1:11:42.760 right story so they are believed right away. In a 1:11:42.840 --> 1:11:47.200 case like hers, where people did not want to believe 1:11:47.320 --> 1:11:52.120 this about an iconic figure, she was subjected to assessment 1:11:52.400 --> 1:11:57.240 and interrogation and processes that were re traumatizing, and she 1:11:57.479 --> 1:12:01.679 had the experience that she was doing something wrong because 1:12:01.720 --> 1:12:05.759 they kept making her talk about it again and again. 1:12:06.760 --> 1:12:11.080 Too often we put the onus of the trauma on 1:12:11.200 --> 1:12:16.479 the survivor, not the perpetrator, and especially when this happens 1:12:16.520 --> 1:12:20.480 to a child, it can do harm. In our next takeaway, 1:12:21.320 --> 1:12:26.519 Dylan makes an interesting contrast between surviving, coping, and thriving, 1:12:27.000 --> 1:12:30.759 and it's an important distinction because it can sometimes create 1:12:30.800 --> 1:12:36.320 an unclear picture. She recognized that she had been coping, 1:12:36.720 --> 1:12:40.720 getting through the days, getting things done, jumping through the 1:12:40.760 --> 1:12:44.559 hoops of life, but was sort of stuck. And because 1:12:44.600 --> 1:12:48.160 she was getting through the days, it may have looked 1:12:48.360 --> 1:12:52.639 like she was doing just fine. In twenty fourteen, when 1:12:52.680 --> 1:12:56.680 she felt her strong response to the announcement at the 1:12:56.680 --> 1:13:01.720 Golden Globes, she recognized that she had been coping, but 1:13:01.800 --> 1:13:04.559 that there was still a lot of work to do 1:13:04.760 --> 1:13:09.160 towards healing and thriving, which is not just about getting 1:13:09.160 --> 1:13:15.120 through the days, but about actual healing and growth. For 1:13:15.200 --> 1:13:21.800 this next takeaway, language matters for trauma survivors. At times, 1:13:22.000 --> 1:13:26.719 she would characterize her reactions as having snapped or freaking out. 1:13:27.720 --> 1:13:32.160 This self pathologizing is not unusual in people who have 1:13:32.240 --> 1:13:37.840 not only endured trauma and are reacting to emotionally triggering situations, 1:13:38.439 --> 1:13:43.880 but something we see in survivors of narcissistic and antagonistic relationships. 1:13:44.720 --> 1:13:48.360 Her reactions at those times to situations that brought up 1:13:48.400 --> 1:13:52.759 feelings related to the original trauma were expectable and should 1:13:52.840 --> 1:13:55.720 have been a call for her to be kind and 1:13:55.800 --> 1:14:01.360 gentle with herself. In this next takeaway, trauma steals safety 1:14:01.960 --> 1:14:06.160 and betrayal trauma steals relational safety, leaving a person with 1:14:06.240 --> 1:14:11.160 a lifelong process of slowly trying to build and ultimately 1:14:11.280 --> 1:14:15.880 create and foster secure attachments. In Dylan's life, she has 1:14:16.040 --> 1:14:23.040 created significant safe attachments her husband, her child, other family friends. 1:14:23.960 --> 1:14:27.519 Her story is a reminder that in a healthy, loving, 1:14:27.640 --> 1:14:32.880 and securely attached relationship, we protect the vulnerabilities of the 1:14:32.960 --> 1:14:38.719 other person and never exploit them. Trauma or betrayal don't 1:14:38.760 --> 1:14:43.320 steal that capacity, and the work is to create those 1:14:43.320 --> 1:14:48.680 connections and maintain them every day. And for our last takeaway, 1:14:49.439 --> 1:14:55.840 Dylan shared what worked for her healing. A strong support network, therapy, medication, 1:14:56.479 --> 1:14:59.880 sometimes stepping out of her comfort zone, and self care. 1:15:00.840 --> 1:15:04.520 All of those have been shown to be important tools 1:15:04.560 --> 1:15:07.880 in the life long work of healing from trauma. It's 1:15:08.000 --> 1:15:12.000 never just one thing that helps people in the process 1:15:12.040 --> 1:15:13.879 of healing and growth.