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Speaker 1: Ah beaute force. If it doesn't work, you're just not

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Speaker 1: using enough. You're listening to Software up Radio, Special Operations,

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Speaker 1: military news and straight talk with the guys and the

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Speaker 1: community soft Rep Radio on Time on Target. Episode number

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Speaker 1: four s I'm Dennis Jones. The man on my left

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Speaker 1: is Jack Murphy. Good afternoon, Sernant. How are you good?

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Speaker 1: How are you? I'm well? Thank you. UM. I wanted

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Speaker 1: to touch on last episode. I'm still coming down from

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Speaker 1: I don't want to say shock, but just the uh,

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Speaker 1: the excitement, the it wasn't news, but just the conversation

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Speaker 1: we had with Jeff. Yeah, I mean, that's pretty incredible

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Speaker 1: and it was really fun to talk to him, and

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Speaker 1: it went off in some unexpected but interesting directions. It

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Speaker 1: was I I likened it to the conversation with Alex

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Speaker 1: where we almost we knew that one was going to

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Speaker 1: go off the rails quickly, and it did. And this

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Speaker 1: one I didn't know what to expect. I knew, um,

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Speaker 1: obviously Jeff is huge into fitness, exercise physiologist. I've been practicing. UM,

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Speaker 1: I knew he was gonna want to talk about that.

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Speaker 1: But the d m T, the cannabis and UH and

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Speaker 1: psychedelic mushroom stuff. That was something I wasn't even really

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Speaker 1: aware of to start with. I mean, obviously I know

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Speaker 1: that exists, but for treatment for people with PTSD that

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Speaker 1: that was something that and then I've done research since

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Speaker 1: then and it's been like I opening for me. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Um yeah. The New York Times did some reporting on it. Um.

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Speaker 1: It seems like when it's supervised by doctors and it's

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Speaker 1: a legitimate treatment, and it really provides um, not a

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Speaker 1: solution but or a cure, but it it provides a

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Speaker 1: lot of relief pain, mental pain or physical pain, which

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Speaker 1: is uh, obviously any way to help PTSD or veterans

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Speaker 1: or cope with what they're going through the more than

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Speaker 1: marry and and if licking toads helps, then you know,

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Speaker 1: God bless you guys. Yeah, I mean it's unconventional, but

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Speaker 1: if if that's what works, um, and and it's a

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Speaker 1: hell of a lot better than some of the alternatives.

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Speaker 1: Opiates are are killers. The opiates, Um, you know, they

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Speaker 1: a lot of guys do not like the antidepressant pills.

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Speaker 1: They make them feel bad or weird, um, anti anxiety pills,

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Speaker 1: all that kind of stuff. Um. So hey, man, if

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Speaker 1: like you gotta go and do some highahuasca or some

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Speaker 1: d MT and like that, and it's like one and done.

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Speaker 1: I mean, and it's crazy because like the stigma behind drugs.

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Speaker 1: I mean, Jeff talked about it in the interview, was

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Speaker 1: like like growing up, we even mentioned a little bit

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Speaker 1: off air, was, um, you know, growing up, it's like

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Speaker 1: drugs are bad, like, don't do drugs, and just like

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Speaker 1: the stuff they feed you, and then the older you

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Speaker 1: get and the more like I don't know how many

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Speaker 1: states legalized marijuana now, but just like the stigmas behind

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Speaker 1: these drugs aren't as terrible as they used to be,

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Speaker 1: Like you know, LSD and acid growing up was I mean,

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Speaker 1: I don't think that's still good. But like you do

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Speaker 1: that and you're gonna get stuck in a trip forever

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Speaker 1: and then they'll never come out. And like all of

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Speaker 1: a sudden, I feel like they would um equate that

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Speaker 1: to like Vietnam vets that just get you know, I've

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Speaker 1: seen some ship man and then all of a sudden,

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Speaker 1: you're like they they're just gone forever. Well, there's definitely

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Speaker 1: an aspect of like refer madness. Yeah, you know that

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Speaker 1: we've been propagandized um, you know, and you know, we

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Speaker 1: were talking about this before we we went on air

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Speaker 1: about the things were taught in school that turn out

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Speaker 1: not to be true, and like the DARE program, you know,

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Speaker 1: I think it has some value, but at the same time,

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Speaker 1: it's like they're not necessarily telling you the whole story either.

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Speaker 1: You know, if you smoke marijuana once, you're not gonna die.

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Speaker 1: You know, it's not gonna kill you. But at the

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Speaker 1: same time, I think you have to look at a

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Speaker 1: lot of those drugs and it's like, is it positive,

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Speaker 1: is it something that's like adding some value to my life,

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Speaker 1: or is it like a negative thing where you're sitting

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Speaker 1: on the couch eating garritos and smoking marijuana all day.

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Speaker 1: So I think there's uh a positive and a negative

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Speaker 1: way that a lot of these substances can be used.

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Speaker 1: Of course we're not we're not advocating going down just

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Speaker 1: like you said last episode, going down to the corner

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Speaker 1: and just hey man, you got any want to try

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Speaker 1: some d m R pulls his duster open and he's

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Speaker 1: just got like LSD lined in his in his uh

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Speaker 1: in his jacket. No, I mean, Jeff said himself, he

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Speaker 1: provided UH and we put the link to it. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: that shouldn't be a free for all that it should

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Speaker 1: be like I mean, doctor assisted. He was, he was

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Speaker 1: looked up to kgs and whatnot. But that was something

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Speaker 1: that I never really thought of before. And I mean,

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Speaker 1: obviously I'm not a veteran, so that luckily I don't

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Speaker 1: I don't deal with PTS. He said the same thing

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Speaker 1: about because it's I don't want to shock anyone, but

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Speaker 1: it is rife in the special operations community. Is a

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Speaker 1: steroid use. Um. I don't think that's a shocker. I know,

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Speaker 1: I've been I've been sarcastic. There's there's a lot of

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Speaker 1: steroid use, and I, in my my humble opinion, I

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Speaker 1: don't really like that guy's abuse it um or use

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Speaker 1: it illegally, because a lot of people don't really know

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Speaker 1: what they're doing and they end up sucking themselves up.

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Speaker 1: Um So, but nonetheless, it is out there, and I

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Speaker 1: wish that the medical community in the military would maybe

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Speaker 1: study it and maybe guys could use it in a

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Speaker 1: medically assisted manner that um gives you some of the

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Speaker 1: benefits gallops, you get stronger. If if that's what we

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Speaker 1: decide the direction we want to go in, but that

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Speaker 1: it's uh supervised, so that guys aren't really having like

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Speaker 1: these long term, um, you know, health impacts. And there

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Speaker 1: are definitely doctors out there, I think, like me being

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Speaker 1: the sports and that I am. I think of um

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Speaker 1: the Balco with Barry Bonds years ago. Like I'm not

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Speaker 1: don't say, I'm not saying find a shady doctor, but

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Speaker 1: like they're doctors who have not like they know their stuff.

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Speaker 1: So find one and explain to them, like, look, here's

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Speaker 1: what we want to do for the military. Like whether

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Speaker 1: we want to admit it or not, their steroid use

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Speaker 1: is a thing. Can we find a way to make

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Speaker 1: this so it's it's not as detrimental to these guys.

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Speaker 1: Why don't you like just instream it and you know,

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Speaker 1: make it part of the Like there's a clinic or

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Speaker 1: something like that, and like you go see the guy

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Speaker 1: or it's just part of your like physical performance enhancement

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Speaker 1: or whatever. Whatever. There's a whole bunch of different programs

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Speaker 1: that the military has that are for um to improve

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Speaker 1: physical performance. Why not just integrate that into it and

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Speaker 1: be like, well, okay, if you want to do it,

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Speaker 1: if you want to try this, it's here for you.

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Speaker 1: Here it is, you know, and you can be you know,

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Speaker 1: it could be supervised by doctors something to consider people.

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Speaker 1: The I mean, I think some of the attitudes towards

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Speaker 1: this stuff are changing, you know, oh absolutely, And we

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Speaker 1: had mentioned that off air. It's because people, you know,

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Speaker 1: like we said, in in schools, you know, you you

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Speaker 1: learn that. I mean we not just the DARE program,

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Speaker 1: but like you had said that, the like the AIDS epidemic,

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Speaker 1: like you you can get it from kissing, and it's

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Speaker 1: like yeah, yeah, they teach you all the like I

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Speaker 1: remember vividly, and this was in the late nineteen nineties.

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Speaker 1: It was like probably n or ninety nine sitting in

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Speaker 1: Hoist school health class and putting it they put the

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Speaker 1: VHS tape bomb, which is twenty years ago, like how

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Speaker 1: far we've come, and the and it's um, it's like

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Speaker 1: a little p s a thing that it takes place.

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Speaker 1: It's like as if it's a female student having a

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Speaker 1: conversation with like the school nurse about AIDS and she's

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Speaker 1: like the girl hass like, can I get AIDS from kissing?

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Speaker 1: And the nurse is like no, we don't think so, Sally,

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Speaker 1: what about deep kissing? And the nurse look said her

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Speaker 1: and said, well, Sally, we just don't know about deep kissing.

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Speaker 1: It's like this like total propaganda, like and we knew

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Speaker 1: by ninety nine, we knew that was bullshit. And that

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Speaker 1: you know that they scared the ship out of all

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Speaker 1: these kids that you know you're gonna get AIDS from

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Speaker 1: your high school sweetheart, which was not the reality of

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Speaker 1: the AIDS epidemic at all. These two high school kids

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Speaker 1: just going we're gonna cut class, We're gonna go into

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Speaker 1: the bleachers and make up, but hey, be careful because

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Speaker 1: I don't want to catch AIDS from you don't have

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Speaker 1: hiv uh. And then then some of the other things

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Speaker 1: we were taught in school, like that the that people

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Speaker 1: back in the old days thought the Earth was flat,

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Speaker 1: and I you could calculated that the the circumference of

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Speaker 1: the Earth. And I mean, I don't know the year

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Speaker 1: off the top of my head, but it was like

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Speaker 1: a thousand years before Christ. It was in ancient Greece.

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Speaker 1: It's a long as time ago. So there was one

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Speaker 1: thousand b C. That's easy math. I that's not exactly

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Speaker 1: I'm just throwing numbers out there. It was a long,

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Speaker 1: long time ago that they figured that out. Uh, And

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Speaker 1: I remember like going when I got to college and

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Speaker 1: um my professor of European history at Mercy College and

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Speaker 1: Dobb's Ferry, he was like, I don't know why they

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Speaker 1: still teach you kids that the earth is that they

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Speaker 1: thought the earth was flat back in the old days,

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Speaker 1: like around Christopher Columbus time. He's like, nobody thought that.

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Speaker 1: It was like, okay, well, I'm glad we learned that

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Speaker 1: growing up, Like the Earth is flat? One cracks me

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Speaker 1: up because, like you said, the circumference and it was like,

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Speaker 1: well who thought, like who thought the Earth was flat?

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Speaker 1: Like where in the readings like none of that at

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Speaker 1: no point? Like and then also I'm a big I

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Speaker 1: love the flat earth truth. There's like today, I mean

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Speaker 1: it's it's like made it come back, Flat Earth made

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Speaker 1: a come back, And it's like what do you, honestly,

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Speaker 1: what do these people believe? Like at a certain at

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Speaker 1: a certain point, you just fall like where does the

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Speaker 1: earth end? I mean, people back in the olden times

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Speaker 1: obviously they were not dumb. They weren't dumb people. I

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Speaker 1: mean you look at the things that they did, the

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Speaker 1: things that they built. It's incredible, But I mean just

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Speaker 1: somebody who. I mean, if you're up on top of

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Speaker 1: a mountain, you can see the circumference, like you curt

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Speaker 1: see the curvature. There's if you're a sailor, you can

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Speaker 1: see ships off in the distance and you can see

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Speaker 1: the sail, but you can't see the bottom of the

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Speaker 1: boat because it's going to flat the curvature of the Earth.

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Speaker 1: I mean, people knew this stuff. They weren't dumb by

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Speaker 1: any means. So if the flat earth flat Earth, there's

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Speaker 1: there a whole another element, well, I don't even want

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Speaker 1: to I feel like the media makes that a thing though,

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Speaker 1: because they do so much reporting on it. It's like

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Speaker 1: they're anti science crusade. Not the media's anti science crusade,

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Speaker 1: but they want to point out to us that there's

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Speaker 1: people out there are anti science, so they do a

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Speaker 1: ton of flat Earth stories, and like, how many of

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Speaker 1: these people are there really in the flat earth society?

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Speaker 1: I feel like it's like, you know, some guy in

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Speaker 1: his garage, you know, with like one of those green

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Speaker 1: screen computers, and he's like typing on the floppy disks.

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Speaker 1: Like many people think the Earth is round, but actually

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Speaker 1: turns out we're living on a pia a piece of

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Speaker 1: peter bread. I'm here to tell you the truth. Uh,

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Speaker 1: flat earthers there a different breed. I would like to

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Speaker 1: meet one. Maybe we can. I don't know how we

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Speaker 1: go about booking a flat earther, but if you're out there,

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Speaker 1: you know, send us an email. One of one of

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Speaker 1: my fascinations going back to when I was a kid,

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Speaker 1: there's people who think the earth is hollow. Hollow. You

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Speaker 1: never heard this? Yeah, and it goes okay in it

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Speaker 1: really kind of goes back more to pulp fiction back

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Speaker 1: in the nineteen thirties because when with all those old

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Speaker 1: pulp magazines, Um, there were stories like the Shriver Mystery

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Speaker 1: was one of them, and they were like some of

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Speaker 1: them were pitched as being factual. Um like here the

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Speaker 1: true life story, that kind of thing. Um. But there's

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Speaker 1: all these different there are these different stories and ideas

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Speaker 1: that the earth is hollow and you can go inside

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Speaker 1: it and perhaps there's a whole other civilization in there.

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Speaker 1: Maybe there's an inner sun inside our hollow, Like there's

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Speaker 1: more people beyond the more people in like the subway

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Speaker 1: s cobolds. Yeah, they're down there somewhere. Um. Yeah, there's

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Speaker 1: like ten foot tall Amazon women and they will, you know,

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Speaker 1: man handle you in horrible ways. I can subscribe to that. Um, yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's just it's obviously nonsense. The earth would be torn

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Speaker 1: apart if it were hollow, because you know, we're spinning

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Speaker 1: on our axes and YadA, YadA, YadA. There's a whole

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Speaker 1: lot of reasons why that's not true. But it's an

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Speaker 1: interesting theory certainly, I mean hollow. I've never heard that.

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Speaker 1: The hollow earth theory. Some people believe that there's an

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Speaker 1: entrance at the north and South pole where like you

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Speaker 1: you're going and then there's just like a hole and

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Speaker 1: you go side and you start curving inside the earth,

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Speaker 1: almost like like a globe. How it just spins like

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Speaker 1: you just got the pole and you oh, you want

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Speaker 1: to travel to the south pole? You just hop hop

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Speaker 1: to the north and you'll drop right through in the

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Speaker 1: hollow earth. Express. Here we go. How quick you think

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Speaker 1: you get there? We need to do some matheticians hollow

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Speaker 1: earth and a mathematician you're out there, reach out, man,

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Speaker 1: we'd we'd love to do some math with you. Um.

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Speaker 1: Before we welcome on our guest, Stephen Elliott. He is

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Speaker 1: a former ranger like yourself. Uh he wrote the book

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Speaker 1: War Story, which I don't want to get into too much.

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Speaker 1: We talked about at the end of it. But I

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Speaker 1: want him to come on because I feel like this

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Speaker 1: is gonna be the majority of the conversation. Um, he

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Speaker 1: was a he was a ranger in two thou three seven.

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Speaker 1: But in two thou three he was in the same

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Speaker 1: infantry as Pat and Kevin Tilman. He's in the same platoon. Platoon. Yes,

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Speaker 1: and UM, we'll let him. I mean, you and him

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Speaker 1: are going to have a lengthy conversation about it, because

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Speaker 1: you would. I think you talked about it on the air,

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Speaker 1: right We didn't. It was I feel like you did.

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Speaker 1: You mentioned it. I don't. I talked about it a

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Speaker 1: little bit yet, right, Um, how do you guys have

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Speaker 1: a similar story? I mean, obviously Pat some similarities is

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Speaker 1: a huge name in the h and not some similarities.

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Speaker 1: And we're both involved in friendly fire incidents. And the

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Speaker 1: sort of connective tissue that connects the one he was

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Speaker 1: involved in in the one I was involved in is

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Speaker 1: Pat Tilman. Um. So, and it's just very strange, it's

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Speaker 1: very strange to think about. And I never met Pat.

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Speaker 1: Um I heard I went through pre ranger with guys

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Speaker 1: who were in his platoon and in his company, and UM,

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Speaker 1: I asked them about it and they said, yeah, Pat

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Speaker 1: Tilman was a real deal, like really good guy. UM,

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Speaker 1: which just makes it even that much more sad. Um.

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Speaker 1: You know that he was killed out there in Afghanistan.

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Speaker 1: But we'll get into all that. Yeah, Like I obviously

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Speaker 1: you and I don't want to sit here and yeah,

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Speaker 1: ruined Steve's conversation. Steve, Stephen is the source he was.

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Speaker 1: He's the guy who was there that day, so you

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Speaker 1: know he can elaborate on that. Yes, So before we

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Speaker 1: get to Stephen, I wanted to talk to you. We

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Speaker 1: record on Thursday, Tuesdays and Thursdays. Obviously you hear Wednesday, Friday. Um,

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Speaker 1: the Iran situation, this morning chaos. If we can grbal chaos.

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Speaker 1: We're our own, um, we're our own conspiracy theorists. Now

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Speaker 1: we got mass hysteria. It is mass hysteria, it really is.

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Speaker 1: It was what what kind of it was? A m

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Speaker 1: Q one was a Q four for Triton drone. I

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Speaker 1: believe it was the maritime version of the prone for

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Speaker 1: for maritime surveillance UM over the Strait of Hormuz and

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Speaker 1: the Persian golf, Get that right, Yeah, yeah, so yeah,

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Speaker 1: the Straits are where the Persian Gulf narrows. UM. It's

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Speaker 1: a it's a maritime choke point where UM oil tankers

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Speaker 1: go through. UM could ostensibly be closed off by naval power.

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Speaker 1: UM not quite as easily as some people. Some people

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Speaker 1: it could sound like you just sink a ship in

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Speaker 1: the Straits and it would like jam it up And no,

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Speaker 1: it's like twenty kilometers across or something like that. It's

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Speaker 1: a it's a pretty sizeable portion of you know, body

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Speaker 1: of water. But it's so it seems that the Iranians

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Speaker 1: shot down an American drone UM with a high altitude

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Speaker 1: surfaced air missile mid the high altitude We're not sure exactly.

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Speaker 1: The real debate is was our drone over Iranian airspace

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Speaker 1: or was it an international airspace? Which makes a pretty

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Speaker 1: big world of difference. UM, if the Iranians shot down

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Speaker 1: in American spy drone essentially over their own airspace, I

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Speaker 1: don't think we can really get outraged with them over that.

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Speaker 1: You caught us, Yeah, yeah, it's like like the you

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Speaker 1: remember a few years ago the Chinese pulled the drone

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Speaker 1: out of the water it's like, can we have our

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Speaker 1: drone back please? Um. But it was it shot and

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Speaker 1: over international waters that could become an issue. UM, I

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Speaker 1: don't think it's a I don't think the shooting down

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Speaker 1: of a drone regardless is such a big issue that

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Speaker 1: we would go to war over that. I don't think. Uh, yeah,

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Speaker 1: you gotta be cautious here. I mean you we had

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Speaker 1: a spy plane, manned spy plane UM crash come down,

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Speaker 1: um after the Chinese came up to intercept it during

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Speaker 1: thees UM. It sounds like a fighter jet one of

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Speaker 1: their fighters collided with our spy plane and had to

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Speaker 1: make an emergency landing in China. And we did not

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Speaker 1: go to war there. Nobody fired any shots. Eventually, our

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Speaker 1: pilots were returned to US. The spy plane was stripped

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Speaker 1: of any technology that had on it, but I think

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Speaker 1: they returned the husk of the plane back to US. UM.

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Speaker 1: But then at the same time, you have you know,

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Speaker 1: what was Donald Trump tweeting out, you know, quite simply

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Speaker 1: Iran made a very big mistake, like only trumpkin the

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Speaker 1: danger here. I mean that could be you know, just bluster,

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Speaker 1: you know, like like President Trump often does. But the

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Speaker 1: danger is that there is this momentum building that we

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Speaker 1: put the I r g C on the terrorist list UM,

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Speaker 1: which means ostensibly we could also attack them outside of Iran.

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Speaker 1: We could attack them in Syria. UM if they have

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Speaker 1: any presence, were able to find in Lebanon, you know,

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Speaker 1: you could strike UM. Some of the other things that

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Speaker 1: have been going on is just that that they're just

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Speaker 1: ratcheting up the tension UM and you can hear it

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Speaker 1: from UH Prime Minister net and Yahoo also UM and

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Speaker 1: him and the Trump administration. They seem to be pretty

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Speaker 1: aligned in the direction that they want to go. The

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Speaker 1: next steps could possibly be that we send more UM

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Speaker 1: naval forces into the Persian Gulf to protect the ships,

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Speaker 1: because this is the the other thing that has been

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Speaker 1: building up here is the oil tank is getting blown up.

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Speaker 1: Did Iran blow them up? Did they not blow them up?

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Speaker 1: Did they put the mind on the side of the ship.

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Speaker 1: Did they take it off? Well, it seems we know

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Speaker 1: they took one off. So it's very curious and there

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Speaker 1: are people like me who are very very cautious about

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Speaker 1: all of this because of the pretexts that we got

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Speaker 1: into UH the Iraq war, that Saddam was building w

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Speaker 1: m d s, which yes, there were some w m

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Speaker 1: d s buried under the sand, but he was not

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Speaker 1: He was not building w m d s. He was

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Speaker 1: not about to launch chemical weapons attacks. That was all nonsense,

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Speaker 1: and it led to us, you know, being in Iraq

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Speaker 1: and fighting and dying for like eight or nine years. Um.

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Speaker 1: And then the other incident is that that is maybe

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Speaker 1: a better comparison to what's been going on in the

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Speaker 1: Persian Gulf is the Gulf of Tom King in Vietnam

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Speaker 1: where you had a non event, um, you know, where

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Speaker 1: ships for you know, maybe they were shooting at radar

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Speaker 1: returns from flying fish and the the uh that this

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Speaker 1: that event was used you know, they said, well our

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Speaker 1: ships are under attack, and they was used to ratchet

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Speaker 1: up the tensions against Vietnam. So I'm very very cautious

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Speaker 1: about some of the things that are happening over there

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Speaker 1: and how those events are being used to build the

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Speaker 1: case for war. Obviously, um, so we could see more

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Speaker 1: naval forces deployed to the Persian Gulf that to escort

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Speaker 1: oil tankers through the Straits. Um. It gets into one

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Speaker 1: of those things too where they're like, you know, we

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Speaker 1: don't have enough you know, our our troops are under

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Speaker 1: attack in the goal for their under threat, so we

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Speaker 1: have to deploy more troops to protect the troops. Like

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Speaker 1: it gets very weird, had on a hat, you know.

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Speaker 1: It's the same sort of thing you've seen in you know,

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Speaker 1: Afghanistan or Iraqi times where it's like, oh, we don't

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Speaker 1: have enough. It's unsafe to have this number of troops,

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Speaker 1: so we have to deploy more troops. You could never

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Speaker 1: have enough guys. Well, yeah, every general is always going

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Speaker 1: to want more resources for whatever he does or admiral

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Speaker 1: and the Pentagon's answer to everything everything is it a a

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Speaker 1: plot more troops, Like it's it really is a failure

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Speaker 1: of creativity. And it's not done out of any kind

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Speaker 1: of like malice or anything. It's just like path dependency.

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Speaker 1: It's like an institutional inertia, Like they don't know how

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Speaker 1: else to respond to problems around the world. So the

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Speaker 1: answer always becomes deploy more troops. Like, oh, we're losing

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Speaker 1: the war in Iraq, deploy more troops. Uh. And this

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Speaker 1: is where you get surges from, Like you get these

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Speaker 1: colonels and generals, they just get in the mood to

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Speaker 1: like surge some troops. It's really weird. It's really weird,

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Speaker 1: and and like there needs to be like a full

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Speaker 1: blown case study on like why this is done and

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Speaker 1: and what the results of it are, because I feel

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Speaker 1: like it's um. It's like the Cult of the Offensive

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Speaker 1: and World War One. It was just a tactic and

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Speaker 1: a strategy, like it just turned out not to be

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Speaker 1: true at all. It doesn't work, so they keep doing this.

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Speaker 1: And then I think the other thing that we're building

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Speaker 1: up to eventually depend on how these things go, is

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Speaker 1: to um put up throw up a no fly zone

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Speaker 1: over Iran, the way we did over Iraq for many years.

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Speaker 1: What Trump in in net and Yahoo, I feel like

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Speaker 1: they're setting up is um the pretexts for us to

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Speaker 1: do some sort of retaliatory strike inside Iran. So, hey,

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Speaker 1: you blew up these oil tankers you shot down or drone,

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Speaker 1: We're gonna go funk up something in yours and drop

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Speaker 1: a few bombs, and then the Iranians will respond, will respond,

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Speaker 1: We'll escalate, they'll escalate, UM, and then you end up

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Speaker 1: with no fly zones over Iran, And it's just it's

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Speaker 1: just one thing leads to the next slippery slope. Uh,

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Speaker 1: stay tuned. I mean we we'll let you know anything

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Speaker 1: that happened I mean, not breaking news, but obviously we'll

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Speaker 1: talk about anything that happens in the coming weeks or days,

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Speaker 1: I mean, depending on who knows what we've We're in

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Speaker 1: for a treat here um before we bring on Steven

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Speaker 1: Elliott to talk about his his time as a ranger.

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Speaker 1: The book is War Story. I want to let you

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00:23:01,520 --> 00:23:03,680
Speaker 1: guys know that this show is brought to you by

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00:23:03,720 --> 00:23:06,120
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426
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Speaker 1: so you really got to act now. For example, we

427
00:23:21,080 --> 00:23:24,240
Speaker 1: have a few more cry Precision Ballistic soft armor inserts

428
00:23:24,680 --> 00:23:27,399
Speaker 1: and Create Club fishing spears. But then you've got our

429
00:23:27,520 --> 00:23:30,360
Speaker 1: items like the Gerber multi tool. Those are gone. Can't

430
00:23:30,359 --> 00:23:33,159
Speaker 1: get those anymore. It's up on its own section on

431
00:23:33,200 --> 00:23:35,440
Speaker 1: Create Club dot us, or you can go to store

432
00:23:35,480 --> 00:23:37,840
Speaker 1: dot crate Club dot us to check it all out.

433
00:23:38,359 --> 00:23:42,359
Speaker 1: That store dot crate Club dot us. There's tons of

434
00:23:42,359 --> 00:23:45,040
Speaker 1: gear that you're going to love on air drop and

435
00:23:45,160 --> 00:23:48,560
Speaker 1: with that, we're gonna welcome on Steven Elliott, author of

436
00:23:48,800 --> 00:23:51,760
Speaker 1: War Story, to talk about his time as a ranger

437
00:23:52,040 --> 00:23:56,000
Speaker 1: and the Pet Tilman incident. Enjoy joining us. Now we

438
00:23:56,080 --> 00:24:00,280
Speaker 1: have Steven Elliott. He graduated summa cum law with a

439
00:24:00,320 --> 00:24:03,440
Speaker 1: BS degree in International business from Oral Roberts in two

440
00:24:03,480 --> 00:24:05,800
Speaker 1: thousand three and then went to Oklahoma State in two

441
00:24:05,840 --> 00:24:09,240
Speaker 1: thousand seven to get your m b A. After going

442
00:24:09,280 --> 00:24:12,560
Speaker 1: to Oral Roberts, he joined the Army Basic Training at

443
00:24:12,600 --> 00:24:15,320
Speaker 1: Fort Benning and Georgia and eventually became a ranger. I'm

444
00:24:15,320 --> 00:24:17,120
Speaker 1: not going to talk about his ranger time because that's

445
00:24:17,119 --> 00:24:20,439
Speaker 1: what he's here for. He is currently the president of

446
00:24:20,480 --> 00:24:24,800
Speaker 1: Capstone Trust in Olympia, Washington, and the author of War Story.

447
00:24:24,920 --> 00:24:28,760
Speaker 1: So Stephen, first off, welcome and thank you for coming on. Yeah,

448
00:24:28,840 --> 00:24:31,879
Speaker 1: thanks for having me. Yes, Stephen, this is uh, just

449
00:24:32,119 --> 00:24:35,399
Speaker 1: very interesting experience. I was saying before we called you

450
00:24:35,520 --> 00:24:37,680
Speaker 1: up that you know, you and I have a very

451
00:24:37,880 --> 00:24:41,960
Speaker 1: odd connection. Um, and we were both involved in these

452
00:24:41,960 --> 00:24:46,040
Speaker 1: friendly fire incidents, and in a very interesting way, Pat

453
00:24:46,080 --> 00:24:48,720
Speaker 1: Tillman is kind of the connective tissue between the two

454
00:24:48,760 --> 00:24:52,119
Speaker 1: of them. Um, and I have to admit I have

455
00:24:52,200 --> 00:24:54,760
Speaker 1: not read your book yet. UM, I really want to.

456
00:24:54,880 --> 00:24:56,480
Speaker 1: I'm gonna have to go and get a copy. I

457
00:24:56,520 --> 00:24:59,040
Speaker 1: actually saw I saw a woman walking down the street

458
00:24:59,040 --> 00:25:01,880
Speaker 1: with it, with your book in or hand. Uh yeah,

459
00:25:01,920 --> 00:25:08,239
Speaker 1: in Brooklyn a couple of days ago. Yeah. Yeahs Um,

460
00:25:08,320 --> 00:25:12,960
Speaker 1: so I think I would be. I'd definitely like to

461
00:25:13,000 --> 00:25:16,960
Speaker 1: tell you my story. I'd also like to hear yours, um,

462
00:25:17,000 --> 00:25:20,040
Speaker 1: if you're willing. UM, I know that on some level

463
00:25:20,040 --> 00:25:22,960
Speaker 1: you're probably sick of talking about it, but um, it

464
00:25:23,040 --> 00:25:25,280
Speaker 1: also is kind of important. And I think you know

465
00:25:25,320 --> 00:25:27,840
Speaker 1: your book is titled war Story. And I wrote about

466
00:25:27,920 --> 00:25:31,399
Speaker 1: in my book how these stories that we both have

467
00:25:31,640 --> 00:25:35,040
Speaker 1: are the kinds of stories that they don't make into movies. Um,

468
00:25:35,240 --> 00:25:37,760
Speaker 1: this this doesn't make it into the comic books, it

469
00:25:37,840 --> 00:25:41,719
Speaker 1: doesn't make it into the films. Um, these are not

470
00:25:41,760 --> 00:25:43,760
Speaker 1: the stories that get repeated. These are the ones that

471
00:25:43,840 --> 00:25:46,720
Speaker 1: like people just kind of carry around inside themselves and

472
00:25:46,800 --> 00:25:49,440
Speaker 1: like we're kind of not really supposed to talk about it.

473
00:25:49,880 --> 00:25:53,760
Speaker 1: But with that said, the reason why I wrote about

474
00:25:53,880 --> 00:25:56,560
Speaker 1: it in my book, and UM, I'm sure that you

475
00:25:56,600 --> 00:25:58,560
Speaker 1: know has you well, you can tell me. But the

476
00:25:58,600 --> 00:26:00,960
Speaker 1: reason why I decided to write abou out it was

477
00:26:01,040 --> 00:26:03,359
Speaker 1: because I think that there are a lot of people

478
00:26:03,400 --> 00:26:05,480
Speaker 1: out there who are in the military or thinking about

479
00:26:05,560 --> 00:26:07,840
Speaker 1: joining the military, and I feel like I owe it

480
00:26:07,880 --> 00:26:11,000
Speaker 1: to them to tell them the real deal, and maybe

481
00:26:11,000 --> 00:26:15,359
Speaker 1: by telling it they can avoid that situation themselves at least.

482
00:26:15,359 --> 00:26:19,440
Speaker 1: That that's my hope behind it. Yeah, no, I plely agree.

483
00:26:19,440 --> 00:26:22,919
Speaker 1: And yeah, just from what little, um little communication has

484
00:26:22,920 --> 00:26:26,399
Speaker 1: passed between us before for this interview, UM, I'm keenly

485
00:26:26,440 --> 00:26:30,080
Speaker 1: interested to kind of hear more about UM, about that

486
00:26:30,240 --> 00:26:34,240
Speaker 1: connection um UM. And then yeah, happy to talk talk

487
00:26:34,280 --> 00:26:38,760
Speaker 1: about sort of my experiences UM and UM, and then

488
00:26:38,800 --> 00:26:40,919
Speaker 1: what we're doing with that. You know, it's important, I

489
00:26:40,960 --> 00:26:43,359
Speaker 1: think for the listener to have context, So we kind

490
00:26:43,359 --> 00:26:45,359
Speaker 1: of have to talk about the past. But then to

491
00:26:45,400 --> 00:26:48,120
Speaker 1: your point, we talked about the past, UM, so that

492
00:26:48,200 --> 00:26:52,200
Speaker 1: we can hopefully help make a better future. I think

493
00:26:52,200 --> 00:26:55,840
Speaker 1: we should probably go in chronological order, because the incident

494
00:26:55,880 --> 00:26:59,360
Speaker 1: I was involved in was too winner of two thousand four,

495
00:26:59,640 --> 00:27:05,640
Speaker 1: so yours was oh three, right, so well it was earlier.

496
00:27:06,080 --> 00:27:10,240
Speaker 1: It was that's when I was deployed Afghanistan. Yeah, because

497
00:27:10,280 --> 00:27:13,480
Speaker 1: I remember I was UM. I was actually backpacking in

498
00:27:13,560 --> 00:27:16,240
Speaker 1: Costa Rica and I was going through the jungle for

499
00:27:16,320 --> 00:27:19,280
Speaker 1: like two or three days, and Um, I came out

500
00:27:19,320 --> 00:27:22,719
Speaker 1: in a little town called Karate and Drake Bay, and

501
00:27:22,800 --> 00:27:25,399
Speaker 1: I went through this little internet cafe and pulled that

502
00:27:25,520 --> 00:27:27,800
Speaker 1: I was. This was right after I graduated Ranger School

503
00:27:28,280 --> 00:27:30,480
Speaker 1: and and I and I went you wait, wait, wait,

504
00:27:30,520 --> 00:27:33,800
Speaker 1: you graduated Ranger school and you went back in Costa Rica. Yeah. Yeah,

505
00:27:33,960 --> 00:27:36,040
Speaker 1: I was kind of one of those. I was one

506
00:27:36,040 --> 00:27:42,000
Speaker 1: of those guys, all right. I pulled up um like

507
00:27:42,000 --> 00:27:44,359
Speaker 1: like the A. O. L home page or something like that,

508
00:27:44,560 --> 00:27:46,800
Speaker 1: and right there on there it was Pat Tilman killed

509
00:27:46,800 --> 00:27:50,680
Speaker 1: in Afghanistan. It was like a whole ship. So that

510
00:27:50,680 --> 00:27:53,600
Speaker 1: that was when I learned about I graduated class zero

511
00:27:53,640 --> 00:27:57,200
Speaker 1: four zero four Ranger School and so during that time

512
00:27:57,200 --> 00:27:59,359
Speaker 1: frame when I was down in Costa Rica, that was

513
00:27:59,400 --> 00:28:02,800
Speaker 1: when this incident you were involved in happened. So um, yeah,

514
00:28:03,040 --> 00:28:05,479
Speaker 1: maybe you want to take it from there and just

515
00:28:05,560 --> 00:28:07,800
Speaker 1: tell us, I mean, feel free to start wherever you

516
00:28:07,800 --> 00:28:10,040
Speaker 1: want if you want to talk about, you know, coming

517
00:28:10,040 --> 00:28:12,600
Speaker 1: into the range of regiment or or start from that

518
00:28:12,600 --> 00:28:17,440
Speaker 1: deployment in Afghanistan, whatever feels natural for you. Yeah, totally, thanks. Yeah.

519
00:28:17,480 --> 00:28:21,200
Speaker 1: I um graduated, graduated the mindergrad in May of oh

520
00:28:21,200 --> 00:28:24,640
Speaker 1: three and then Yeah, started UM at Fort Benning there

521
00:28:24,640 --> 00:28:27,320
Speaker 1: a few weeks after I got assigned to second Range

522
00:28:27,320 --> 00:28:32,120
Speaker 1: of Battalion, Fort Louis in November of three, and then

523
00:28:32,520 --> 00:28:36,199
Speaker 1: UM was assigned to that fall. The battalion had just

524
00:28:36,320 --> 00:28:39,240
Speaker 1: gotten back, like literally as I got there, they were

525
00:28:39,240 --> 00:28:41,920
Speaker 1: just getting back from their first deployment to Afghanistan. And

526
00:28:42,440 --> 00:28:47,200
Speaker 1: the first k i A that the battalion experienced in

527
00:28:47,200 --> 00:28:51,240
Speaker 1: in the War Iraq or Afghanistan was sustained on that deployment.

528
00:28:51,840 --> 00:28:55,080
Speaker 1: And then UM, Yeah, I was signed to platoon there

529
00:28:55,080 --> 00:28:59,280
Speaker 1: at second bat UM with UM with Pat and his

530
00:28:59,320 --> 00:29:02,280
Speaker 1: brother Kevin, and UM. Kevin and I were in the

531
00:29:02,320 --> 00:29:05,000
Speaker 1: same squad. We were both UM part of weapons squad.

532
00:29:05,080 --> 00:29:08,080
Speaker 1: So you know, I was a g M two forty.

533
00:29:08,280 --> 00:29:11,560
Speaker 1: That's where I started in um uh in battalion and

534
00:29:11,600 --> 00:29:14,040
Speaker 1: so we trained up as a platoon you know, for

535
00:29:14,040 --> 00:29:15,720
Speaker 1: the next number of months, and then we were deployed

536
00:29:16,120 --> 00:29:19,360
Speaker 1: as part of Spring Search in April of two and four.

537
00:29:20,160 --> 00:29:24,240
Speaker 1: Of course, as you referenced, April two thousand and four,

538
00:29:25,360 --> 00:29:29,800
Speaker 1: was killed UM and we uh, we found out very quickly,

539
00:29:30,120 --> 00:29:33,120
Speaker 1: UM that that was a result of friendly fire, a

540
00:29:33,320 --> 00:29:38,080
Speaker 1: variety of mitigating circumstances, but UM. Ultimately our platoon was

541
00:29:38,400 --> 00:29:43,040
Speaker 1: split and UM. During the course of that split, trying

542
00:29:43,040 --> 00:29:46,880
Speaker 1: to accomplish two objectives at the same time. UM, our

543
00:29:47,000 --> 00:29:49,080
Speaker 1: cereal are half the platoon that I was a part

544
00:29:49,080 --> 00:29:53,000
Speaker 1: of was ambushed and as we engaged and moved through

545
00:29:53,440 --> 00:29:58,560
Speaker 1: UM that that kill zone. UM, we mistakenly fired on

546
00:29:58,560 --> 00:30:02,200
Speaker 1: on a friendly position, which was ultimately Pat's position. PAT

547
00:30:02,280 --> 00:30:05,840
Speaker 1: squad that was responding and maneuvering along the bridge line

548
00:30:05,880 --> 00:30:09,640
Speaker 1: to try and support us in our engagement. And so

549
00:30:09,760 --> 00:30:12,320
Speaker 1: as those pieces start to fall into place, that happened,

550
00:30:12,400 --> 00:30:15,640
Speaker 1: you know, the evening of a m We knew instantly

551
00:30:15,760 --> 00:30:19,360
Speaker 1: that we had sustained four casualties too dead and too wounded. UM.

552
00:30:19,440 --> 00:30:21,320
Speaker 1: One of the one of those who was killed the

553
00:30:21,320 --> 00:30:24,840
Speaker 1: courses path. The other was an Afghan military uh A

554
00:30:25,000 --> 00:30:29,400
Speaker 1: MS soldier r P L got hit and our our

555
00:30:29,480 --> 00:30:32,080
Speaker 1: t O got hit and UM. And so those are

556
00:30:32,080 --> 00:30:34,880
Speaker 1: the casualties we sustained. We knew within twenty four hours

557
00:30:34,880 --> 00:30:37,720
Speaker 1: those casualties were as a result of friendly fire. UM.

558
00:30:37,760 --> 00:30:40,040
Speaker 1: And then as those pieces started to kind of come together,

559
00:30:40,520 --> 00:30:43,080
Speaker 1: you know, go back to the FOB critical incident debrief

560
00:30:43,560 --> 00:30:47,920
Speaker 1: to investigations, UM, UM, it was very evident that UM

561
00:30:47,960 --> 00:30:50,560
Speaker 1: and we still know this day who fired the shots

562
00:30:50,640 --> 00:30:54,040
Speaker 1: that that killed Patum, but we know that there's likely

563
00:30:54,480 --> 00:30:57,080
Speaker 1: um from what we do know, likely one of two

564
00:30:57,200 --> 00:31:01,360
Speaker 1: or both rangers who fired those round and I'm one

565
00:31:01,400 --> 00:31:03,880
Speaker 1: of those two men. So it was myself as the

566
00:31:03,920 --> 00:31:06,400
Speaker 1: two pretty gunner on on the vehicle and then the

567
00:31:06,640 --> 00:31:10,480
Speaker 1: saw gunner on the vehicle as well are considered likely

568
00:31:10,520 --> 00:31:14,040
Speaker 1: to have fired those uh those shots, and so um,

569
00:31:14,120 --> 00:31:17,520
Speaker 1: you know, that's you know, my my association with the

570
00:31:17,560 --> 00:31:20,280
Speaker 1: incident and perhaps you know, one of the worst possible ways.

571
00:31:20,840 --> 00:31:25,600
Speaker 1: And so that happens, you know, A four debriefed at

572
00:31:25,640 --> 00:31:29,200
Speaker 1: the FOB, and then relatively quickly, you know, we were

573
00:31:29,240 --> 00:31:33,600
Speaker 1: back out um doing more raids before we came home.

574
00:31:33,880 --> 00:31:36,720
Speaker 1: And so there was sort of a false sense of closure.

575
00:31:36,920 --> 00:31:39,080
Speaker 1: I mean there's nothing, there's nothing in the ranger handbook

576
00:31:39,120 --> 00:31:42,880
Speaker 1: about what's the protocol as a you know non tab

577
00:31:42,960 --> 00:31:45,600
Speaker 1: e F for friendly fire, Like you have no idea

578
00:31:45,640 --> 00:31:48,520
Speaker 1: what's supposed to happen, and you don't have a context

579
00:31:48,560 --> 00:31:51,560
Speaker 1: for that UM, and so there's sort of a sense

580
00:31:51,600 --> 00:31:55,880
Speaker 1: of well, I guess that was it, Like I guess, um,

581
00:31:56,040 --> 00:31:58,680
Speaker 1: we're you know, we lost Pat and that's terrible and

582
00:31:58,680 --> 00:32:01,600
Speaker 1: and this thing happened, but you're just kind of moving on.

583
00:32:02,200 --> 00:32:04,920
Speaker 1: And then we got home and then that's when, um,

584
00:32:04,960 --> 00:32:07,720
Speaker 1: you know, sort of things really started to kind of

585
00:32:07,720 --> 00:32:10,959
Speaker 1: fall apart, because that's when we discovered that the narrative

586
00:32:11,000 --> 00:32:12,920
Speaker 1: that was being told that the family was very very

587
00:32:12,920 --> 00:32:15,200
Speaker 1: in the world, frankly, was very different than what we

588
00:32:15,240 --> 00:32:17,920
Speaker 1: knew to be true as a platoon. UM. And then

589
00:32:17,920 --> 00:32:21,680
Speaker 1: that's when myself and and four others were urfs from

590
00:32:21,680 --> 00:32:24,320
Speaker 1: the regiment for um, you know, for our role in

591
00:32:24,360 --> 00:32:27,040
Speaker 1: that incident. And so and I completed, you know, I

592
00:32:27,080 --> 00:32:29,680
Speaker 1: was in the Army until I was seven complete the

593
00:32:29,680 --> 00:32:33,000
Speaker 1: mind listening, um. But certainly, you know what happened in Afghanistan,

594
00:32:33,080 --> 00:32:37,800
Speaker 1: that was a significant shifts in you know, in my

595
00:32:37,840 --> 00:32:41,440
Speaker 1: life and in my service for you know, pretty obvious reasons.

596
00:32:41,480 --> 00:32:45,080
Speaker 1: That's pretty incredible that they so they kicked you out

597
00:32:45,120 --> 00:32:47,880
Speaker 1: of the Ranger Regiment. So the Army is saying that,

598
00:32:48,280 --> 00:32:51,160
Speaker 1: telling the world and telling the tilman's that Pat Pat

599
00:32:51,200 --> 00:32:54,280
Speaker 1: died heroically fighting the enemy. But at the same time

600
00:32:54,320 --> 00:32:57,440
Speaker 1: they're kicking you guys out of the military because it

601
00:32:57,520 --> 00:32:59,640
Speaker 1: was a friendly fire incident and no one sees the

602
00:32:59,680 --> 00:33:02,600
Speaker 1: country diction here. Yeah. Well the worst thing about that,

603
00:33:02,680 --> 00:33:05,760
Speaker 1: like it was it was really hard you know, for

604
00:33:05,800 --> 00:33:08,800
Speaker 1: I mean for previous reasons as as a shooter in

605
00:33:08,800 --> 00:33:11,280
Speaker 1: that incident, Like you you know, your heart and your

606
00:33:11,280 --> 00:33:15,720
Speaker 1: mind vacillates between. You know, this is unfair to you know,

607
00:33:15,760 --> 00:33:17,960
Speaker 1: I deserve worse, you know what I mean. So and

608
00:33:18,080 --> 00:33:20,520
Speaker 1: I'm not I'm I'm the last person that is in

609
00:33:20,520 --> 00:33:23,280
Speaker 1: a position to kind of past judgment on my own

610
00:33:23,400 --> 00:33:26,479
Speaker 1: my own actions. M but that one of the biggest

611
00:33:26,480 --> 00:33:29,760
Speaker 1: injustices was you know, of the guys that were released

612
00:33:29,800 --> 00:33:31,600
Speaker 1: in the regime at the time was our was our

613
00:33:31,680 --> 00:33:37,320
Speaker 1: p L who vehemently um disputed and fought with the

614
00:33:37,400 --> 00:33:42,160
Speaker 1: team of command against splitting a platoon. And so um,

615
00:33:43,640 --> 00:33:48,560
Speaker 1: there's there's uh, you know, reverberations of this, I think

616
00:33:48,760 --> 00:33:55,760
Speaker 1: and what happened in nijare m spliting splitting up the team. Yeah, yeah,

617
00:33:55,760 --> 00:33:57,800
Speaker 1: so there was there was a lot of um and

618
00:33:57,840 --> 00:33:59,640
Speaker 1: so that obviously, I mean, it was just it was

619
00:33:59,640 --> 00:34:01,959
Speaker 1: a horrid incident for so many reasons. It was horrible

620
00:34:01,960 --> 00:34:04,960
Speaker 1: for the family, I mean, losing Pat but then effectively

621
00:34:04,960 --> 00:34:07,280
Speaker 1: losing him twice in a way in terms of being

622
00:34:07,320 --> 00:34:09,759
Speaker 1: told one narrative and then being told another and then

623
00:34:09,760 --> 00:34:13,399
Speaker 1: all the distrust that that created, and then just the yeah,

624
00:34:13,560 --> 00:34:15,959
Speaker 1: just the just the brokenness that created within the unit

625
00:34:16,160 --> 00:34:22,000
Speaker 1: um as UM. Yeah, as we know this, UM, but

626
00:34:22,400 --> 00:34:26,720
Speaker 1: you know that you know, Uh, bad stories or dark stories,

627
00:34:26,760 --> 00:34:28,680
Speaker 1: they don't get better with age, and they certainly don't

628
00:34:28,680 --> 00:34:31,359
Speaker 1: get better with deception. Um, you just make it worse

629
00:34:31,360 --> 00:34:34,319
Speaker 1: for everybody. And so that UM, yeah, it was. It

630
00:34:34,360 --> 00:34:37,720
Speaker 1: was a very difficult toil to swallow for lots of reasons, UM,

631
00:34:37,840 --> 00:34:39,680
Speaker 1: and not the least of which was you know, Pat

632
00:34:39,719 --> 00:34:43,520
Speaker 1: was gone and UM, and you were, you know me

633
00:34:43,880 --> 00:34:46,480
Speaker 1: as as part of that incident. You know, you were

634
00:34:46,560 --> 00:34:50,520
Speaker 1: part of UM. You know we're part of that. And UM,

635
00:34:50,560 --> 00:34:53,200
Speaker 1: you know it's not it's not fair to say that,

636
00:34:53,440 --> 00:34:55,920
Speaker 1: you know, I caused his death or I'm responsible for it.

637
00:34:55,960 --> 00:34:58,239
Speaker 1: You know, I was one person that was taking actions

638
00:34:58,400 --> 00:35:02,360
Speaker 1: within the broader, a much broader, dysfunctional contexts at the

639
00:35:02,400 --> 00:35:05,400
Speaker 1: same time, you know, you pull the trigger right and

640
00:35:05,640 --> 00:35:08,120
Speaker 1: you have responsibility. And so you know, I spent a

641
00:35:08,120 --> 00:35:10,799
Speaker 1: better part of twelve years trying to sort that out

642
00:35:10,800 --> 00:35:13,680
Speaker 1: in my heart and mind in terms of um, you know,

643
00:35:13,960 --> 00:35:17,480
Speaker 1: owning what I needed to own, you know, as a

644
00:35:17,480 --> 00:35:19,799
Speaker 1: as a soldier, as a ranger, as a man, but

645
00:35:19,920 --> 00:35:23,560
Speaker 1: at the same time not making myself the center of

646
00:35:23,560 --> 00:35:26,520
Speaker 1: the story, if that makes sense, because I think sometimes

647
00:35:26,600 --> 00:35:28,799
Speaker 1: we can own a part of a part of a

648
00:35:28,880 --> 00:35:32,520
Speaker 1: tragedy that really just makes us more important than we are.

649
00:35:33,480 --> 00:35:35,400
Speaker 1: You know. It's just like, yeah, are you really that

650
00:35:35,600 --> 00:35:38,120
Speaker 1: important to be the one who caused all of this?

651
00:35:38,320 --> 00:35:42,000
Speaker 1: Will know, at the same time, you have responsibility I had.

652
00:35:42,800 --> 00:35:45,360
Speaker 1: I you know, it's funny. I mean, it's not funny,

653
00:35:45,400 --> 00:35:48,120
Speaker 1: but it's it's interesting to hear you say this because I, like,

654
00:35:48,200 --> 00:35:50,200
Speaker 1: I went through so many of the same things where

655
00:35:50,280 --> 00:35:54,440
Speaker 1: like I totally blamed myself for everything. And it was

656
00:35:54,480 --> 00:35:56,680
Speaker 1: really funny in the sense that when I like was

657
00:35:56,680 --> 00:35:59,759
Speaker 1: writing my book, I went and I asked teammates of

658
00:35:59,800 --> 00:36:03,080
Speaker 1: my who were there um or supervisors I had at

659
00:36:03,080 --> 00:36:06,000
Speaker 1: the time, like hey, can you like like take a

660
00:36:06,000 --> 00:36:08,480
Speaker 1: look at what I wrote here, like and like just

661
00:36:08,560 --> 00:36:12,000
Speaker 1: for fact checking really and um they came back to

662
00:36:12,040 --> 00:36:14,640
Speaker 1: me and like I think, to a man, each of

663
00:36:14,680 --> 00:36:16,880
Speaker 1: them was like, it wasn't even your fault, Jack, Like

664
00:36:17,000 --> 00:36:20,840
Speaker 1: why why you blis? But I feel like it's my

665
00:36:20,920 --> 00:36:24,320
Speaker 1: fault and I took responsibility for it and the and

666
00:36:24,560 --> 00:36:27,000
Speaker 1: at the time I took responsibility for it, and in

667
00:36:27,000 --> 00:36:29,799
Speaker 1: my book I did as well. But I mean it

668
00:36:29,920 --> 00:36:32,359
Speaker 1: was interesting that you know, a lot of the guys

669
00:36:32,400 --> 00:36:35,680
Speaker 1: I worked with are like, dude, like you're putting a

670
00:36:35,719 --> 00:36:40,359
Speaker 1: little bit too much on yourself here. But anyway, if

671
00:36:40,360 --> 00:36:43,440
Speaker 1: you want, I will walk you through the what happened

672
00:36:43,440 --> 00:36:47,080
Speaker 1: to me? UM that winner of two thousand and four

673
00:36:48,360 --> 00:36:52,080
Speaker 1: so um winner of oh four oh five. And I

674
00:36:52,120 --> 00:36:55,920
Speaker 1: can't remember the exact date unfortunately. UM. Maybe if I

675
00:36:55,920 --> 00:36:57,799
Speaker 1: go dig in through some paperwork, I can try to

676
00:36:57,880 --> 00:37:01,200
Speaker 1: figure that out. But it was that winner. UM. We

677
00:37:01,280 --> 00:37:04,120
Speaker 1: got the word. I was down in UM Salerno FOB

678
00:37:04,160 --> 00:37:08,720
Speaker 1: Salerno in Afghanistan, which is in Cowst Province. UM. I

679
00:37:08,800 --> 00:37:13,560
Speaker 1: was a sniper attached to Charlie Company, third Ranger Battalion UM.

680
00:37:13,640 --> 00:37:16,279
Speaker 1: Beyond that, it was the first deployment with our new

681
00:37:16,280 --> 00:37:19,959
Speaker 1: Wreckie teams UM that we had just stood up and

682
00:37:20,239 --> 00:37:22,879
Speaker 1: the I was working with the reky guys a lot.

683
00:37:22,920 --> 00:37:25,040
Speaker 1: We were kind of because we were all HHC. We

684
00:37:25,080 --> 00:37:27,520
Speaker 1: were kind of put under the same platoon leader and

685
00:37:27,560 --> 00:37:31,879
Speaker 1: platoon sergeant for that deployment UM. And a mission came

686
00:37:31,920 --> 00:37:36,719
Speaker 1: down that we were to go and reconnoiter the compound

687
00:37:36,960 --> 00:37:39,640
Speaker 1: where the guy who planned the pat Tilman ambush as

688
00:37:39,640 --> 00:37:42,560
Speaker 1: they called it died. I'm not sure what the name

689
00:37:42,640 --> 00:37:45,720
Speaker 1: of that. Uh, not where he died, but where where

690
00:37:45,760 --> 00:37:49,920
Speaker 1: he was suspected to be living. Um, the guy who

691
00:37:49,960 --> 00:37:52,279
Speaker 1: actually planned that ambush that you guys got caught in.

692
00:37:53,239 --> 00:37:55,799
Speaker 1: So they wanted us to go recon this compound, get

693
00:37:55,800 --> 00:37:59,480
Speaker 1: eyes on it and um then in order to help

694
00:37:59,760 --> 00:38:02,480
Speaker 1: them plan for the Charlie Company guys to come in

695
00:38:02,520 --> 00:38:06,560
Speaker 1: and raid the compound and capture killed the guy. So

696
00:38:06,760 --> 00:38:11,000
Speaker 1: we took a couple non standard tactical vehicles UH high

697
00:38:11,040 --> 00:38:14,120
Speaker 1: lucks Is, drove down to the Pakistan border to a

698
00:38:14,160 --> 00:38:17,400
Speaker 1: border control point where there were these um c I

699
00:38:17,480 --> 00:38:20,560
Speaker 1: A paramilitary guys Afghans that were trained there and we

700
00:38:20,560 --> 00:38:23,680
Speaker 1: were we were working with them on that operation. It

701
00:38:23,760 --> 00:38:26,320
Speaker 1: was just the wrecky guys, two guys from the mortar

702
00:38:26,360 --> 00:38:29,520
Speaker 1: section and then me as a sniper. We're disguised, we're

703
00:38:29,520 --> 00:38:34,319
Speaker 1: disguised as Afghan UM paramilitaries essentially. UH. We had we

704
00:38:34,360 --> 00:38:37,160
Speaker 1: had the beards, we had the tiger stripe camo, we

705
00:38:37,280 --> 00:38:40,279
Speaker 1: had the picole caps, all that, all that stuff so

706
00:38:40,320 --> 00:38:43,879
Speaker 1: that we blended in with the indige. Uh. The day

707
00:38:44,000 --> 00:38:46,600
Speaker 1: that we went out to recon from the from the BCP,

708
00:38:47,640 --> 00:38:51,000
Speaker 1: we're really right on the right on the Pakistan border. Um.

709
00:38:51,040 --> 00:38:53,719
Speaker 1: You could hear firefights in the mountains. We were told

710
00:38:53,719 --> 00:38:56,680
Speaker 1: that it was just various tribes like tribal feuds, um,

711
00:38:56,680 --> 00:38:58,600
Speaker 1: and they're fighting with each other and mortoring each other.

712
00:38:58,680 --> 00:39:01,319
Speaker 1: It really had nothing to do with us. UM. We

713
00:39:01,480 --> 00:39:05,840
Speaker 1: drove up into the mountains. Um we found a MSS

714
00:39:05,920 --> 00:39:09,279
Speaker 1: or mission support site. Uh we did uh. UM. We

715
00:39:09,400 --> 00:39:11,520
Speaker 1: split up the team as as his planned for a

716
00:39:11,560 --> 00:39:14,520
Speaker 1: wreckie operation. There's the MSS where the guy with the

717
00:39:14,640 --> 00:39:17,719
Speaker 1: radio and some other security elements are and then the

718
00:39:17,719 --> 00:39:21,560
Speaker 1: recon patrol goes forward. I was left at the MSS

719
00:39:21,719 --> 00:39:23,840
Speaker 1: and told that we should try to scout out some

720
00:39:23,920 --> 00:39:28,120
Speaker 1: areas nearby for um el z's for the helicopters to

721
00:39:28,160 --> 00:39:30,839
Speaker 1: come in and land for the actual direct action raid

722
00:39:30,920 --> 00:39:34,080
Speaker 1: that was being planned for this objective. So we went

723
00:39:34,080 --> 00:39:35,960
Speaker 1: out and we scout. We were scouting out some landing

724
00:39:36,040 --> 00:39:39,000
Speaker 1: zones on top of this mountain and UM, we got

725
00:39:39,000 --> 00:39:41,720
Speaker 1: word over the radio the other there's one other ranger

726
00:39:41,800 --> 00:39:44,200
Speaker 1: with me and a couple of Afghans and the other

727
00:39:44,280 --> 00:39:46,319
Speaker 1: ranger had an embitor and he got word that the

728
00:39:46,440 --> 00:39:49,680
Speaker 1: recompatrol it was like six seven guys that were out

729
00:39:50,080 --> 00:39:53,160
Speaker 1: on foot. UM radioed back to the m S S

730
00:39:53,239 --> 00:39:56,040
Speaker 1: and they said that there was ten armed guys, armed

731
00:39:56,040 --> 00:39:59,960
Speaker 1: Taliban or or you know whoever. They were locals move

732
00:40:00,000 --> 00:40:03,160
Speaker 1: moving towards the m S S. And they were reported

733
00:40:03,160 --> 00:40:05,640
Speaker 1: to have a recoil is rifle. They were armed, they

734
00:40:05,640 --> 00:40:08,239
Speaker 1: were moving towards our position. So he said, holy sh it.

735
00:40:08,320 --> 00:40:10,920
Speaker 1: We got back in the truck. We drove right back

736
00:40:10,960 --> 00:40:13,440
Speaker 1: to the m S S. UM. We did not have

737
00:40:13,480 --> 00:40:17,520
Speaker 1: any further commo at that time with the recompatrol. Then

738
00:40:17,520 --> 00:40:19,759
Speaker 1: this is one of the after the fact you find

739
00:40:19,800 --> 00:40:21,440
Speaker 1: out this is one of the big problems we had

740
00:40:21,440 --> 00:40:24,520
Speaker 1: was poor communications. That like, in terms in terms of

741
00:40:24,560 --> 00:40:27,719
Speaker 1: actual radio equipment, we had these embitors that were not

742
00:40:27,880 --> 00:40:32,280
Speaker 1: necessarily UM able to reach one another. UM. But because

743
00:40:32,320 --> 00:40:35,759
Speaker 1: of the terrain, UM I made the decision at that

744
00:40:35,800 --> 00:40:38,800
Speaker 1: point that we were gonna launch a hasty near ambush

745
00:40:39,000 --> 00:40:41,600
Speaker 1: rather than just wait for the enemy to walk into

746
00:40:41,600 --> 00:40:44,560
Speaker 1: the MSS and get into some kind of running firefight.

747
00:40:44,560 --> 00:40:46,040
Speaker 1: I was like, no, well, we'll go down the road

748
00:40:46,080 --> 00:40:49,560
Speaker 1: a little bit. We'll set up a hasty ambush. UM.

749
00:40:49,600 --> 00:40:52,800
Speaker 1: I did that with the one other ranger, and um

750
00:40:52,880 --> 00:40:57,759
Speaker 1: maybe twelve Afghans got them down in position. There's like

751
00:40:57,880 --> 00:41:01,960
Speaker 1: rangers school really um except for the except that they

752
00:41:02,000 --> 00:41:04,440
Speaker 1: liked to fire on auto from the squatting position. That's

753
00:41:04,440 --> 00:41:10,000
Speaker 1: one of the big totally serious UM. So we get

754
00:41:10,040 --> 00:41:14,000
Speaker 1: down in position. UM. I don't know how long I

755
00:41:14,120 --> 00:41:15,799
Speaker 1: was there. It's like one of those things you can't

756
00:41:15,800 --> 00:41:18,040
Speaker 1: really tell time when you're like under streets like that.

757
00:41:18,400 --> 00:41:20,960
Speaker 1: Maybe a couple of minutes. UM I I had taken

758
00:41:21,000 --> 00:41:23,279
Speaker 1: cover behind a tree. I tried to get everyone else

759
00:41:23,320 --> 00:41:26,480
Speaker 1: down behind cover also, UM I made sure no one

760
00:41:26,520 --> 00:41:28,120
Speaker 1: had issued that that I would be the one who

761
00:41:28,120 --> 00:41:31,720
Speaker 1: initiated the ambush. I heard uh after a few minutes,

762
00:41:31,760 --> 00:41:34,720
Speaker 1: somebody coming down the um the side of the mountain,

763
00:41:34,920 --> 00:41:37,600
Speaker 1: but not through the kill zone we had planned, but

764
00:41:37,680 --> 00:41:40,080
Speaker 1: like across the dirt road that we had the ambush

765
00:41:40,080 --> 00:41:42,960
Speaker 1: set up on, there was a um an embankment. It

766
00:41:43,040 --> 00:41:45,640
Speaker 1: went uphill and it was like somebody was coming down

767
00:41:45,640 --> 00:41:48,440
Speaker 1: that you could hear rocks falling under their footsteps and

768
00:41:48,480 --> 00:41:51,640
Speaker 1: they were walking right past our kill zone. So now

769
00:41:51,920 --> 00:41:53,880
Speaker 1: now we had to do like a forty five degree

770
00:41:54,080 --> 00:41:59,759
Speaker 1: turn to engage these guys. Um I got I did that.

771
00:42:00,280 --> 00:42:03,560
Speaker 1: I had an Sr five sniper rifle that I backed

772
00:42:03,560 --> 00:42:06,680
Speaker 1: the magnification down to what three point five because we

773
00:42:06,680 --> 00:42:12,120
Speaker 1: were so close. Um, I saw someone pass through my sights.

774
00:42:12,440 --> 00:42:15,720
Speaker 1: It was like a silhouette. Um. You know, gun in hand,

775
00:42:16,600 --> 00:42:19,839
Speaker 1: chest rig you know the cap, the picole cap. But

776
00:42:20,040 --> 00:42:22,480
Speaker 1: he passed through my site so quickly that I didn't

777
00:42:22,480 --> 00:42:25,319
Speaker 1: get a beat on him. Second guy comes into view,

778
00:42:25,480 --> 00:42:29,240
Speaker 1: same thing, gun in the hand, the Afghan cap um,

779
00:42:29,280 --> 00:42:31,960
Speaker 1: but it's like a silhouette. It's like a shadow. So

780
00:42:32,960 --> 00:42:34,520
Speaker 1: it's kind of at that point now where it's like

781
00:42:34,560 --> 00:42:37,480
Speaker 1: now or never, Like if these guys get through us,

782
00:42:37,719 --> 00:42:40,600
Speaker 1: they're gonna walk right into the MSS where there's another

783
00:42:40,640 --> 00:42:45,279
Speaker 1: American ranger on the r T O and like to Afghans,

784
00:42:46,480 --> 00:42:48,640
Speaker 1: it's like you gotta make it happen now. So I took,

785
00:42:48,840 --> 00:42:53,280
Speaker 1: I took, I took the shot. Um the gun snapped,

786
00:42:53,800 --> 00:42:55,640
Speaker 1: had a suppressor, so you hear like the snap of

787
00:42:55,640 --> 00:42:58,920
Speaker 1: the gun shot. Everything's quiet for a pregnant pause, and

788
00:42:58,920 --> 00:43:02,399
Speaker 1: then all hell breaks. There's fire, there's return fire, there's

789
00:43:02,400 --> 00:43:05,480
Speaker 1: Afghans shooting from the squatting position like the tree I'm

790
00:43:05,520 --> 00:43:08,720
Speaker 1: behind is getting turned into splinters. There's like dirt getting

791
00:43:08,800 --> 00:43:11,359
Speaker 1: kicked up in my face from from the gunfire coming

792
00:43:11,400 --> 00:43:14,920
Speaker 1: back at us Um. And then one of the Afghans

793
00:43:14,960 --> 00:43:17,680
Speaker 1: with his little handheld walkie talkie starts jumping up and down.

794
00:43:17,680 --> 00:43:20,560
Speaker 1: He's like, and I don't really understand what the hell

795
00:43:20,600 --> 00:43:22,880
Speaker 1: he's saying, but I get the point. No no shoot,

796
00:43:22,880 --> 00:43:26,120
Speaker 1: no shoot, no shoot, Like, what the hell is going

797
00:43:26,200 --> 00:43:30,680
Speaker 1: on here? Um? I told the guy next to me,

798
00:43:30,840 --> 00:43:33,200
Speaker 1: and this is this is another interesting thing. So I

799
00:43:33,280 --> 00:43:35,400
Speaker 1: had read and I don't know, you can tell me

800
00:43:35,440 --> 00:43:38,439
Speaker 1: if this is accurate or not. I had read that

801
00:43:38,800 --> 00:43:42,319
Speaker 1: Pat Tilman was killed because he stood up in the

802
00:43:42,360 --> 00:43:45,160
Speaker 1: middle of the firefight and he yelled on Pat Tillman

803
00:43:45,320 --> 00:43:47,960
Speaker 1: stopped shooting, and that was when he got hit. That

804
00:43:48,040 --> 00:43:49,640
Speaker 1: was something I had read. I don't know if it's

805
00:43:49,640 --> 00:43:52,279
Speaker 1: true or not, but that that thing that I had

806
00:43:52,320 --> 00:43:54,200
Speaker 1: read that was going through my head at the time.

807
00:43:54,880 --> 00:43:58,520
Speaker 1: Because I told the guy next to me, Um, I

808
00:43:58,520 --> 00:44:00,319
Speaker 1: won't say his name. I have no idea of where

809
00:44:00,320 --> 00:44:03,160
Speaker 1: he is today. I couldn't find him, um call I called.

810
00:44:03,160 --> 00:44:05,360
Speaker 1: I named him Val in the book, the other Ranger,

811
00:44:05,560 --> 00:44:08,680
Speaker 1: and I said, do not stand up do not stand up,

812
00:44:09,040 --> 00:44:13,759
Speaker 1: like you're gonna get shot. Um. But then we we

813
00:44:13,840 --> 00:44:17,120
Speaker 1: have this obvious problem, like who are these people down there? Like,

814
00:44:17,200 --> 00:44:20,240
Speaker 1: didn't didn't did a Special Forces O d A wander

815
00:44:20,280 --> 00:44:23,080
Speaker 1: into our our kill zone? Was this a friendly like

816
00:44:23,120 --> 00:44:25,680
Speaker 1: Afghan police unit? Like? What the hell just happened? So

817
00:44:26,000 --> 00:44:29,480
Speaker 1: I realized I'm in charge. I I have to break

818
00:44:29,520 --> 00:44:32,160
Speaker 1: my own rule. Um, So I told I told Val,

819
00:44:32,280 --> 00:44:34,480
Speaker 1: I was like, don't do not get up, just stay

820
00:44:34,520 --> 00:44:37,280
Speaker 1: where you are. And I stood up and I walked

821
00:44:37,320 --> 00:44:38,960
Speaker 1: down to the road to try to figure out what

822
00:44:39,000 --> 00:44:40,759
Speaker 1: the hell is going on. And I was just sure

823
00:44:40,800 --> 00:44:43,680
Speaker 1: I was going to get shot. But as I get

824
00:44:43,680 --> 00:44:46,440
Speaker 1: down to the road, I come face to face with

825
00:44:47,040 --> 00:44:50,759
Speaker 1: my buddy Paul, who was the assistant Recie team leader

826
00:44:50,760 --> 00:44:52,759
Speaker 1: who's out on the foot patrol. And he looks back

827
00:44:52,800 --> 00:44:55,120
Speaker 1: at me, and I looked at him, and we were

828
00:44:55,200 --> 00:44:58,480
Speaker 1: both like, what the funk just happened? He was like

829
00:44:58,520 --> 00:45:00,920
Speaker 1: he was like Murph. I was like like Paul, like

830
00:45:01,000 --> 00:45:03,080
Speaker 1: what the what, what the funk are you doing here?

831
00:45:03,800 --> 00:45:06,800
Speaker 1: That was when we realized that this was a friendly

832
00:45:06,840 --> 00:45:12,280
Speaker 1: fire incident. Um. So I don't want to like drag

833
00:45:12,360 --> 00:45:15,480
Speaker 1: this out even longer than I already had, but long

834
00:45:15,560 --> 00:45:20,360
Speaker 1: story short UM the recon patrol leader, UM, the senior

835
00:45:20,400 --> 00:45:23,840
Speaker 1: guy on the ground for that operation as a staff sergeant.

836
00:45:24,320 --> 00:45:29,359
Speaker 1: He had been shot across the shoulders and I did not.

837
00:45:29,600 --> 00:45:31,400
Speaker 1: And when I went down there, when I went down

838
00:45:31,440 --> 00:45:33,000
Speaker 1: to the road and went down to where all of

839
00:45:33,040 --> 00:45:35,400
Speaker 1: this had happened, he was down on his hands and

840
00:45:35,480 --> 00:45:38,279
Speaker 1: knees as somebody was putting gauze on his back, and

841
00:45:38,280 --> 00:45:40,080
Speaker 1: I thought he had been shot between the shoulders. I

842
00:45:40,120 --> 00:45:42,759
Speaker 1: was like, oh my god, this guy is about to die. UM.

843
00:45:43,239 --> 00:45:45,560
Speaker 1: It had been more of UM. There was a flesh wound.

844
00:45:45,640 --> 00:45:47,279
Speaker 1: It was in and out. It was like went right

845
00:45:47,280 --> 00:45:51,200
Speaker 1: across his shoulder blades. And when we went back to

846
00:45:51,239 --> 00:45:53,680
Speaker 1: the b c P, we he the hell. We called

847
00:45:53,719 --> 00:45:56,319
Speaker 1: him MEDEVAC. Helicopter came and got him out, took him

848
00:45:56,520 --> 00:45:59,640
Speaker 1: back to Salerno UM for treatment. We went back to

849
00:45:59,640 --> 00:46:01,319
Speaker 1: the beast EP and we all sat down and we

850
00:46:01,360 --> 00:46:05,919
Speaker 1: did our own internal a r As we started talking, UM,

851
00:46:06,280 --> 00:46:10,120
Speaker 1: we realized I realized what some of the things that

852
00:46:10,160 --> 00:46:12,799
Speaker 1: had happened. And I and so that guy who had

853
00:46:12,840 --> 00:46:15,680
Speaker 1: been shot, that ranger that was shot, he was second

854
00:46:15,719 --> 00:46:18,799
Speaker 1: in the order of the movement on that patrol. I

855
00:46:18,920 --> 00:46:21,200
Speaker 1: fired on the guy who was second in the order

856
00:46:21,200 --> 00:46:24,600
Speaker 1: of movement. When I fired, I had it wasn't a

857
00:46:24,719 --> 00:46:26,640
Speaker 1: very good shot because of the position I was in.

858
00:46:26,760 --> 00:46:29,520
Speaker 1: I had to fire through some tree branches and it

859
00:46:29,600 --> 00:46:32,560
Speaker 1: was horrible. But I pulled the trigger and I can.

860
00:46:32,600 --> 00:46:35,239
Speaker 1: When you're a sniper and you've shot enough, you know

861
00:46:35,719 --> 00:46:39,479
Speaker 1: where the round is going. UM. And when I felt

862
00:46:39,480 --> 00:46:42,240
Speaker 1: the trigger break and that shot go off, I felt

863
00:46:42,280 --> 00:46:47,799
Speaker 1: it go like just behind this person was working perpendicutive

864
00:46:47,880 --> 00:46:52,160
Speaker 1: to me. So that night when the our our platoon

865
00:46:52,239 --> 00:46:54,719
Speaker 1: leader flew in on a helicopter to kind of get

866
00:46:54,760 --> 00:46:57,720
Speaker 1: a handle on the situation, take control of the patrol

867
00:46:57,760 --> 00:47:00,239
Speaker 1: and get us back to UM, back to our but

868
00:47:00,280 --> 00:47:02,279
Speaker 1: like he was just trying to be responsible and keep

869
00:47:02,360 --> 00:47:05,840
Speaker 1: us out of trouble. UM. But he came in that

870
00:47:05,960 --> 00:47:09,279
Speaker 1: night on helicopter and uh, and he he came and

871
00:47:09,280 --> 00:47:13,319
Speaker 1: talked to me, and he was totally professional, but he

872
00:47:13,360 --> 00:47:17,439
Speaker 1: asked me. He said, Murph, who shot that guy? Who shot?

873
00:47:17,480 --> 00:47:20,319
Speaker 1: Who shot the patrol leader? And I looked at him,

874
00:47:20,360 --> 00:47:21,960
Speaker 1: I was like, it was me. He's like I I

875
00:47:22,080 --> 00:47:24,359
Speaker 1: was like, I can't prove it to you. There's nothing

876
00:47:24,360 --> 00:47:26,840
Speaker 1: I can ever do to prove that. But I'm telling

877
00:47:26,880 --> 00:47:30,120
Speaker 1: you I know personally that I'm the one who shot him.

878
00:47:31,320 --> 00:47:34,960
Speaker 1: And thank god, UM, no one was killed. That guy

879
00:47:35,160 --> 00:47:38,160
Speaker 1: came back to work, he went home for that deployment.

880
00:47:38,200 --> 00:47:41,319
Speaker 1: He was sent home. UM. I think just because he

881
00:47:41,320 --> 00:47:42,880
Speaker 1: had been hurt and they didn't want his family to

882
00:47:42,880 --> 00:47:46,399
Speaker 1: worry about him, of course. Um. But he recovered, came

883
00:47:46,440 --> 00:47:49,400
Speaker 1: back to work, and and had the rest of his

884
00:47:49,440 --> 00:47:53,680
Speaker 1: special operations career. Um. So thank god everything turned out. Now,

885
00:47:53,719 --> 00:47:58,200
Speaker 1: what became of this gentleman we were targeting who supposedly

886
00:47:58,200 --> 00:48:02,000
Speaker 1: planned the ambush the killed Pat Tilman. I don't know. Yeah,

887
00:48:02,160 --> 00:48:05,319
Speaker 1: the tragic irony of all that as far as um, yeah,

888
00:48:05,360 --> 00:48:09,719
Speaker 1: the friendly fire connection, both in terms of our our

889
00:48:09,840 --> 00:48:12,720
Speaker 1: incident and in the one where you're trying to respond

890
00:48:12,800 --> 00:48:17,240
Speaker 1: to to that, I mean, it's uh, that's incredible. Yeah, man,

891
00:48:17,360 --> 00:48:19,320
Speaker 1: what do you say to that? I mean, I don't know.

892
00:48:19,760 --> 00:48:23,719
Speaker 1: There's so many things that I you know, like you said,

893
00:48:23,800 --> 00:48:27,800
Speaker 1: there's nothing in the Ranger Handbook to prepare you for that. Um,

894
00:48:27,840 --> 00:48:31,520
Speaker 1: And I Uh, I got back home and it was

895
00:48:31,520 --> 00:48:34,600
Speaker 1: like it destroyed me in in a sense that like

896
00:48:34,960 --> 00:48:37,560
Speaker 1: my whole identity was being a ranger, Like I loved it,

897
00:48:38,080 --> 00:48:43,400
Speaker 1: um And but there's nothing there. There's no stories, there's

898
00:48:43,400 --> 00:48:47,200
Speaker 1: no books, there's no movies that like tell you what

899
00:48:47,239 --> 00:48:49,080
Speaker 1: are you supposed to do? Like you kind of know

900
00:48:49,120 --> 00:48:51,040
Speaker 1: what you're supposed to do? You supposed to do when

901
00:48:51,080 --> 00:48:54,600
Speaker 1: like your friend gets killed by the enemy. You know,

902
00:48:54,320 --> 00:48:57,280
Speaker 1: you know, no one really tells you what you're supposed

903
00:48:57,320 --> 00:48:59,960
Speaker 1: to do in a situation like this. And I found

904
00:49:00,040 --> 00:49:04,080
Speaker 1: myself that I had made these decisions in combat that

905
00:49:04,360 --> 00:49:06,680
Speaker 1: I'm not necessarily proud of. But at the same time,

906
00:49:06,680 --> 00:49:08,279
Speaker 1: I feel like I did what I had to do

907
00:49:08,520 --> 00:49:12,640
Speaker 1: with the information I had. And but in the aftermath

908
00:49:12,680 --> 00:49:14,960
Speaker 1: of it, you know, I found myself just ostracized. I

909
00:49:15,040 --> 00:49:18,360
Speaker 1: was just this this um not by not by everyone, um,

910
00:49:18,400 --> 00:49:21,440
Speaker 1: but by a lot of people UM. And that's that's

911
00:49:21,440 --> 00:49:24,000
Speaker 1: just range of Battalion. It's a super competitive environment and

912
00:49:24,000 --> 00:49:26,000
Speaker 1: people are going to judge you, and it is what

913
00:49:26,080 --> 00:49:28,640
Speaker 1: it is. But I remember thinking about looking in the

914
00:49:28,640 --> 00:49:30,960
Speaker 1: mirror one night, thinking like what do you do and

915
00:49:30,960 --> 00:49:32,719
Speaker 1: the like do you kill yourself? What do you do

916
00:49:32,760 --> 00:49:35,480
Speaker 1: in this situation? What are you supposed to do? But

917
00:49:35,600 --> 00:49:38,400
Speaker 1: I can say that I did reflect back on the

918
00:49:38,480 --> 00:49:41,200
Speaker 1: range of Creed at that moment because it doesn't say

919
00:49:41,200 --> 00:49:44,560
Speaker 1: anything in there about quitting UM. Which was which was

920
00:49:44,600 --> 00:49:46,839
Speaker 1: something that kind of carried me through that moment, was

921
00:49:46,880 --> 00:49:50,840
Speaker 1: that I felt that the thing to do was ultimately

922
00:49:50,960 --> 00:49:54,279
Speaker 1: was to just like head down and just like go

923
00:49:54,440 --> 00:49:58,440
Speaker 1: barrel through it. UM. And I was fortunate that my

924
00:49:58,480 --> 00:50:02,440
Speaker 1: platoon sergeant UM allowed me to do that, and that

925
00:50:02,600 --> 00:50:04,719
Speaker 1: I was allowed to say I was allowed to stay

926
00:50:04,719 --> 00:50:08,600
Speaker 1: in ranger battalion and UM and I went on another deployment,

927
00:50:08,719 --> 00:50:11,360
Speaker 1: and I felt that I was able to push past

928
00:50:11,400 --> 00:50:15,120
Speaker 1: that incident and show that I could do the job. UM.

929
00:50:15,160 --> 00:50:17,640
Speaker 1: And I'm forever grateful for them, because I feel like

930
00:50:17,719 --> 00:50:20,919
Speaker 1: that one incident would have defined my entire life. UM,

931
00:50:21,000 --> 00:50:23,440
Speaker 1: had you know, had I been like RFS at that

932
00:50:23,520 --> 00:50:26,439
Speaker 1: time and I never got to do what I felt

933
00:50:26,480 --> 00:50:29,680
Speaker 1: I was supposed to do as a ranger. Do you

934
00:50:29,680 --> 00:50:32,239
Speaker 1: think that how much of that? And it's hard to

935
00:50:32,560 --> 00:50:35,760
Speaker 1: you know, know, our decision sometimes as circumstance has been different.

936
00:50:35,800 --> 00:50:41,000
Speaker 1: But did that experience play into your decision to move

937
00:50:41,000 --> 00:50:43,920
Speaker 1: on and do things beyond the regiment you think? I

938
00:50:43,920 --> 00:50:48,279
Speaker 1: don't know. UM. It wasn't so much that UM, I

939
00:50:48,560 --> 00:50:51,000
Speaker 1: knew I wanted to stay in the Army at that

940
00:50:51,040 --> 00:50:54,839
Speaker 1: time and pursue you know, special operations. But I think

941
00:50:54,840 --> 00:50:58,080
Speaker 1: it was also just life and ranger regiment where you

942
00:50:58,120 --> 00:51:02,080
Speaker 1: know how it is. Man, It's like, um, you know,

943
00:51:02,120 --> 00:51:04,640
Speaker 1: I I relate in the book this one story where

944
00:51:05,360 --> 00:51:08,480
Speaker 1: I was a tab spec for UH and they told

945
00:51:08,480 --> 00:51:11,520
Speaker 1: me to go and um mow the lawn. Um because

946
00:51:11,719 --> 00:51:14,360
Speaker 1: I was I was at headquarters and that's not necessarily

947
00:51:14,400 --> 00:51:16,360
Speaker 1: a problem. It's like, Okay, we gotta cut the grass,

948
00:51:16,480 --> 00:51:19,120
Speaker 1: you know. Okay, So I go to the wamow, go

949
00:51:19,239 --> 00:51:22,399
Speaker 1: pull out the lawmow or the wamower. Spark plugs are dead. Um,

950
00:51:22,440 --> 00:51:24,640
Speaker 1: So I was going to the UM. I was going

951
00:51:24,680 --> 00:51:26,320
Speaker 1: to go to the hardware store and gets get a

952
00:51:26,400 --> 00:51:29,120
Speaker 1: new spark plug for the wawmower. And I got confronted

953
00:51:29,160 --> 00:51:32,080
Speaker 1: by this E five and he's like, where are you going, Murphy?

954
00:51:32,120 --> 00:51:33,239
Speaker 1: What the funk are you doing? And I was like,

955
00:51:33,360 --> 00:51:34,879
Speaker 1: I'm going on. You know, I told him what I'm doing.

956
00:51:34,880 --> 00:51:37,680
Speaker 1: He's like, whoa, that's way outside your pay grade. What

957
00:51:37,719 --> 00:51:40,600
Speaker 1: are you doing? It's like, man, you trust me with

958
00:51:40,640 --> 00:51:43,200
Speaker 1: a loaded gun in combat, but I can't come buy

959
00:51:43,239 --> 00:51:45,880
Speaker 1: a fucking spark plug to get the lawmower working. Like

960
00:51:46,320 --> 00:51:48,640
Speaker 1: So it gets that, but I mean it's just that's

961
00:51:48,680 --> 00:51:50,560
Speaker 1: just one little vignette, But I mean there are all

962
00:51:50,600 --> 00:51:53,920
Speaker 1: these stories like that where it's just like, man, do

963
00:51:53,960 --> 00:51:55,719
Speaker 1: I really want to stay in this unit over the

964
00:51:55,719 --> 00:51:59,560
Speaker 1: long haul? Like like like just yell at privates because

965
00:51:59,560 --> 00:52:01,480
Speaker 1: they're wearing the wrong type of belt, Like I don't.

966
00:52:01,560 --> 00:52:04,719
Speaker 1: That's not really my thing, right, Well, particularly when it

967
00:52:04,800 --> 00:52:07,040
Speaker 1: was like at that time, it's an interesting time of

968
00:52:07,080 --> 00:52:09,120
Speaker 1: history because I think, I mean, you were there for

969
00:52:09,120 --> 00:52:10,839
Speaker 1: longer than I was, But I can even look back

970
00:52:10,880 --> 00:52:16,320
Speaker 1: and see like bits and pieces of this garrison version

971
00:52:16,320 --> 00:52:19,839
Speaker 1: of the regiment versus like no ship, we're going to war,

972
00:52:20,480 --> 00:52:25,920
Speaker 1: so um, we don't have to prove our ranger nous

973
00:52:25,960 --> 00:52:29,360
Speaker 1: by our like by how shiny the waxed floor is

974
00:52:29,719 --> 00:52:33,320
Speaker 1: or by you know how creased. Um. You know a

975
00:52:33,440 --> 00:52:37,560
Speaker 1: b du pant leg is. That's fine, but no, really

976
00:52:37,600 --> 00:52:40,920
Speaker 1: like we have their bigger and better, not better, but

977
00:52:40,960 --> 00:52:44,560
Speaker 1: there's there's more weighty matters UM that that we need

978
00:52:44,600 --> 00:52:48,120
Speaker 1: to tend to. UM that is actually being an operational

979
00:52:48,160 --> 00:52:51,920
Speaker 1: combat unit um and not um just just a garrison

980
00:52:52,000 --> 00:52:55,600
Speaker 1: unit UM. And I think I was starting to starting

981
00:52:55,600 --> 00:52:57,640
Speaker 1: to see that at that time, and I think even

982
00:52:58,000 --> 00:53:00,279
Speaker 1: you know just I mean I remember the guys and

983
00:53:00,360 --> 00:53:02,239
Speaker 1: they came back from that. Um you know, I was

984
00:53:02,920 --> 00:53:05,759
Speaker 1: fresh green, you know, straight from ripped, and I didn't

985
00:53:05,760 --> 00:53:08,600
Speaker 1: know which end was up, and um, you know, guys

986
00:53:08,600 --> 00:53:12,080
Speaker 1: were processing the fact that hey, it's it's not a

987
00:53:12,080 --> 00:53:15,040
Speaker 1: game anymore. We just lost J. Blessing, he was killed

988
00:53:15,080 --> 00:53:18,160
Speaker 1: in Afghanistan and you know, winner of OH three and

989
00:53:18,200 --> 00:53:21,320
Speaker 1: so like that was that was like this pivot point

990
00:53:21,320 --> 00:53:24,160
Speaker 1: where it isn't just this really yeah, we're gonna have

991
00:53:24,200 --> 00:53:28,160
Speaker 1: a conversation about you know, spark plugs or floor waxer's

992
00:53:28,400 --> 00:53:31,520
Speaker 1: or whatever stupid crap that you want to talk about. Um,

993
00:53:31,560 --> 00:53:33,319
Speaker 1: you know, we need to go to war. I mean

994
00:53:33,360 --> 00:53:35,319
Speaker 1: that's what that's what we're being asked to do. And

995
00:53:35,360 --> 00:53:38,400
Speaker 1: so um, so it's interesting and now I mean obviously

996
00:53:38,480 --> 00:53:41,839
Speaker 1: so many years on that that hasn't stopped. Um. But

997
00:53:41,840 --> 00:53:45,280
Speaker 1: but it isn't interesting and strange. It's a strange world

998
00:53:46,320 --> 00:53:50,239
Speaker 1: question where the pettiness and the importance of things just

999
00:53:50,280 --> 00:53:52,840
Speaker 1: sort of mesh in a strange way. I got to

1000
00:53:53,160 --> 00:53:55,360
Speaker 1: Range of Battalion kind of at the same time as you,

1001
00:53:55,440 --> 00:53:57,440
Speaker 1: I guess I got there. And what the summer of

1002
00:53:57,640 --> 00:54:01,239
Speaker 1: two thousand three and the guys they had just come

1003
00:54:01,280 --> 00:54:04,279
Speaker 1: back from the invasion of Iraq, so I think at

1004
00:54:04,320 --> 00:54:07,120
Speaker 1: that point they had done one one deployment to Afghanistan

1005
00:54:07,160 --> 00:54:09,960
Speaker 1: and then that one to Iraq. Um and they had

1006
00:54:10,000 --> 00:54:14,360
Speaker 1: lost My company had lost three guys um and Uh

1007
00:54:14,680 --> 00:54:19,960
Speaker 1: s V B I E. D Um killed Long Livida

1008
00:54:20,040 --> 00:54:24,440
Speaker 1: and Rippitto uh where the three guys were killed specialist,

1009
00:54:24,480 --> 00:54:27,600
Speaker 1: a staff sergeant and the captain. And yeah, as you say,

1010
00:54:28,120 --> 00:54:31,960
Speaker 1: the guys in the company were really processing that. UM

1011
00:54:32,480 --> 00:54:35,560
Speaker 1: and there was a trauma there that no one wanted

1012
00:54:35,600 --> 00:54:39,160
Speaker 1: to talk about. And my team leader, Um, I still

1013
00:54:39,200 --> 00:54:41,640
Speaker 1: know to this day he was I remember him sitting

1014
00:54:41,680 --> 00:54:44,640
Speaker 1: there and he like almost he'd almost start tearing up

1015
00:54:44,680 --> 00:54:48,839
Speaker 1: because when Um that bomb went off, he my team

1016
00:54:48,920 --> 00:54:51,200
Speaker 1: leader had called and like taking his field jacket and

1017
00:54:51,239 --> 00:54:55,720
Speaker 1: smothered the fire out on staff Sergeant Lividay his remains

1018
00:54:56,040 --> 00:54:58,479
Speaker 1: the fire and he went and smothered the fire out

1019
00:54:58,600 --> 00:55:01,799
Speaker 1: and Um and it it was just something that these

1020
00:55:01,800 --> 00:55:04,239
Speaker 1: guys have been traumatized. But it was early on in

1021
00:55:04,280 --> 00:55:05,960
Speaker 1: the war and no one really knew what to do

1022
00:55:06,000 --> 00:55:10,080
Speaker 1: with it. Um And And the difference between the war

1023
00:55:10,160 --> 00:55:13,520
Speaker 1: mentality and the garrison mentality was strong really strong, and

1024
00:55:13,520 --> 00:55:15,200
Speaker 1: it was so it was so strong that when I

1025
00:55:15,239 --> 00:55:18,840
Speaker 1: got there, we had it was this is hilarious to

1026
00:55:18,880 --> 00:55:20,759
Speaker 1: think about, Like we had our go to war kit,

1027
00:55:21,680 --> 00:55:24,120
Speaker 1: um our go to war gear, and then we had

1028
00:55:24,239 --> 00:55:26,399
Speaker 1: like also when I got there, I had to rig

1029
00:55:26,480 --> 00:55:29,239
Speaker 1: up my t A fifty, my l C with all

1030
00:55:29,239 --> 00:55:32,759
Speaker 1: the appropriate with all the appropriate tie downs, like with

1031
00:55:32,840 --> 00:55:35,200
Speaker 1: the certain types of the square knots and you burn

1032
00:55:35,280 --> 00:55:39,239
Speaker 1: the ends to connect so that on there and so.

1033
00:55:39,400 --> 00:55:41,640
Speaker 1: But we we didn't use that kit. We didn't use

1034
00:55:41,680 --> 00:55:43,880
Speaker 1: that l C anymore. It was like something we just

1035
00:55:43,960 --> 00:55:46,600
Speaker 1: did out of a tradition, like we've been doing this

1036
00:55:46,640 --> 00:55:50,359
Speaker 1: for so long that you have to have it, you know. Yeah,

1037
00:55:50,400 --> 00:55:52,280
Speaker 1: it was like it was like range of arts and crafts.

1038
00:55:52,360 --> 00:55:55,200
Speaker 1: I remember that, I remember, and I got I mean,

1039
00:55:55,239 --> 00:55:57,520
Speaker 1: I got treated with a little bit more difference because

1040
00:55:57,680 --> 00:56:00,239
Speaker 1: I had a degree UM. Patt and Kevin and I

1041
00:56:00,239 --> 00:56:01,560
Speaker 1: think were the only three guys other than the p

1042
00:56:01,719 --> 00:56:03,560
Speaker 1: L who had had a bachelor's degree in the in

1043
00:56:03,640 --> 00:56:07,520
Speaker 1: the platoon, which doesn't mean anything at all other than

1044
00:56:07,560 --> 00:56:09,839
Speaker 1: the fact that you've spent four years out of high

1045
00:56:09,880 --> 00:56:14,279
Speaker 1: school doing something else that other guys hadn't UM. So,

1046
00:56:14,280 --> 00:56:17,280
Speaker 1: so I was maybe less of an idiot at twenty

1047
00:56:17,320 --> 00:56:19,000
Speaker 1: two than I would have been an eight team, but

1048
00:56:19,360 --> 00:56:21,600
Speaker 1: but just a more well read idiot in a lot

1049
00:56:21,600 --> 00:56:25,040
Speaker 1: of respects, because I would find myself asking questions that

1050
00:56:25,120 --> 00:56:28,359
Speaker 1: I shouldn't ask a V five anissances, and then as

1051
00:56:28,400 --> 00:56:32,439
Speaker 1: I'm pushing, it's just like you know, okay, well, next time,

1052
00:56:32,560 --> 00:56:35,359
Speaker 1: just shut up and do it as opposed to do

1053
00:56:35,400 --> 00:56:40,640
Speaker 1: not insert logic into this situation. Right, that's that's your

1054
00:56:40,680 --> 00:56:44,120
Speaker 1: first mistake, like burn off the ends of the l

1055
00:56:44,200 --> 00:56:46,720
Speaker 1: c E. That is going to hang on your bunk

1056
00:56:47,400 --> 00:56:50,200
Speaker 1: um as you prepare to go to an actual war. Okay,

1057
00:56:50,520 --> 00:56:53,920
Speaker 1: rogers aren't got it? And um yeah there was still

1058
00:56:54,440 --> 00:56:55,920
Speaker 1: that's so funny. Yeah, there was still some of that

1059
00:56:55,960 --> 00:56:58,359
Speaker 1: stuff going on. Did you have to sew up your

1060
00:56:58,360 --> 00:57:02,000
Speaker 1: patrol cap with dental floss? Yeah? That was my favorite. Yeah,

1061
00:57:02,040 --> 00:57:04,880
Speaker 1: that was the best, um, which I mean, that was

1062
00:57:05,000 --> 00:57:07,080
Speaker 1: a great life hack when I figured that out. Just

1063
00:57:07,120 --> 00:57:09,839
Speaker 1: the power of dental floss as a selling mechanism. I mean,

1064
00:57:09,880 --> 00:57:13,319
Speaker 1: that's just that's just served me so well, um beyond

1065
00:57:13,360 --> 00:57:15,440
Speaker 1: the army now, but yeah, it was. It was a

1066
00:57:15,440 --> 00:57:18,000
Speaker 1: lot of these just kind of goofy, but it was

1067
00:57:18,080 --> 00:57:19,680
Speaker 1: it was a weird in a weird way. It was

1068
00:57:19,760 --> 00:57:23,440
Speaker 1: this um, I mean even the equipment was changing so quickly,

1069
00:57:23,920 --> 00:57:26,800
Speaker 1: so there was still this like, yeah, there was these

1070
00:57:26,840 --> 00:57:30,560
Speaker 1: things of initiation, but also like these are the markers

1071
00:57:30,600 --> 00:57:34,360
Speaker 1: of who we are as a unit. And it's still

1072
00:57:34,400 --> 00:57:37,040
Speaker 1: having a hard time, you know, even like when I

1073
00:57:37,080 --> 00:57:39,760
Speaker 1: got there, it was high and tight or bald head

1074
00:57:39,880 --> 00:57:42,880
Speaker 1: every week, and then then that changed while I was there,

1075
00:57:42,920 --> 00:57:46,480
Speaker 1: and you could see like the sevens and above, just

1076
00:57:46,840 --> 00:57:50,600
Speaker 1: the gears grinding in their brain, just just driving them

1077
00:57:50,640 --> 00:57:54,400
Speaker 1: crazy about that. But it wasn't like that's what they

1078
00:57:54,400 --> 00:57:57,800
Speaker 1: grew up with, you know. And so how do you, like,

1079
00:57:57,840 --> 00:58:00,360
Speaker 1: how do you let things go that are some alick

1080
00:58:00,880 --> 00:58:03,600
Speaker 1: and actually hold on to the things in the unit

1081
00:58:03,760 --> 00:58:07,800
Speaker 1: that matter like that the haircut, only it doesn't matter

1082
00:58:08,440 --> 00:58:13,800
Speaker 1: it discipline matters absolutely, But how that discipline is expressed

1083
00:58:13,800 --> 00:58:16,600
Speaker 1: and enforced that can change. And so yeah, it's that's

1084
00:58:16,640 --> 00:58:21,200
Speaker 1: a that's interesting to kind of seem the early stages

1085
00:58:21,240 --> 00:58:24,840
Speaker 1: of that and and then how it's transformed over my guys,

1086
00:58:24,920 --> 00:58:28,640
Speaker 1: over fifteen years. That's it's incredible. How much how much

1087
00:58:28,640 --> 00:58:32,520
Speaker 1: do you think I'm curious? Like um, because I mean

1088
00:58:32,960 --> 00:58:35,720
Speaker 1: I don't have a clearer reader connection within that community

1089
00:58:35,720 --> 00:58:38,320
Speaker 1: as probably you do it lining there for as long

1090
00:58:38,960 --> 00:58:42,440
Speaker 1: like how do you think, um, like, how do we

1091
00:58:42,480 --> 00:58:45,560
Speaker 1: affect or how can cultural change be affected in units

1092
00:58:45,640 --> 00:58:48,680
Speaker 1: like that? So that when those things happen friendly fire

1093
00:58:48,720 --> 00:58:53,720
Speaker 1: or otherwise, UM, there's freedom for guys to actually get

1094
00:58:53,920 --> 00:58:58,240
Speaker 1: help that they need, um and not just stuff the

1095
00:58:58,280 --> 00:59:01,280
Speaker 1: trauma that they experience. What what do you think of

1096
00:59:01,320 --> 00:59:04,439
Speaker 1: all that? And I I mean that that plays into

1097
00:59:04,480 --> 00:59:07,240
Speaker 1: the whole like bigger issue of like PTSD in general.

1098
00:59:07,440 --> 00:59:11,080
Speaker 1: And I think, yeah, I don't I'm not a psychologist,

1099
00:59:11,080 --> 00:59:13,480
Speaker 1: but I think that there has to be something embedded

1100
00:59:13,840 --> 00:59:17,040
Speaker 1: inside these units that are continuously deployed over and over

1101
00:59:17,080 --> 00:59:20,680
Speaker 1: again that like that it's like almost mandatory, like you

1102
00:59:20,720 --> 00:59:22,840
Speaker 1: have to go and see the shrink or something like that,

1103
00:59:23,600 --> 00:59:27,360
Speaker 1: UM and talk about whatever it is that's you know,

1104
00:59:27,480 --> 00:59:30,040
Speaker 1: what what your experiences are and what bothers you. And

1105
00:59:30,080 --> 00:59:32,040
Speaker 1: I think it'll be really hard to get a lot

1106
00:59:32,080 --> 00:59:34,160
Speaker 1: of the guys to open up. Maybe maybe the culture

1107
00:59:34,200 --> 00:59:36,880
Speaker 1: of the unit is different now, but I mean back

1108
00:59:36,920 --> 00:59:39,360
Speaker 1: in the day, like we wouldn't say shit. I mean

1109
00:59:39,400 --> 00:59:42,480
Speaker 1: I know we wouldn't. UM. You know, they get they

1110
00:59:42,560 --> 00:59:44,760
Speaker 1: give you those questionnaires when you come back from deployment,

1111
00:59:44,800 --> 00:59:49,040
Speaker 1: like do you have trouble sleeping? Nope? Do you have mayors? Nope?

1112
00:59:49,440 --> 00:59:52,680
Speaker 1: Uh you know, did did you were you exposed to trauma? Nope?

1113
00:59:53,280 --> 00:59:57,320
Speaker 1: You know. Um, but I think, yeah, these units, these

1114
00:59:57,560 --> 00:59:59,920
Speaker 1: soft units that are deployed, you know, you have guys

1115
01:00:00,000 --> 01:00:02,760
Speaker 1: we're going on twelve fifteen deployments, Like there has to

1116
01:00:02,760 --> 01:00:05,360
Speaker 1: be something that's embedded in the unit that it's just

1117
01:00:05,440 --> 01:00:09,600
Speaker 1: like part of your deployment and like post deployment process

1118
01:00:09,720 --> 01:00:12,400
Speaker 1: that you go and talk to the you go and

1119
01:00:12,440 --> 01:00:16,360
Speaker 1: talk to the shrink um and get treated and um.

1120
01:00:16,480 --> 01:00:19,040
Speaker 1: And it shouldn't be seen as like a stigma or

1121
01:00:19,080 --> 01:00:20,720
Speaker 1: that there's something wrong with you. It's like that this

1122
01:00:20,760 --> 01:00:23,160
Speaker 1: is just part of the normal process. Just like you

1123
01:00:23,200 --> 01:00:25,080
Speaker 1: go to the shooting range and you shoot your guns

1124
01:00:25,080 --> 01:00:27,400
Speaker 1: and you work on marksmanship, Like this is just you

1125
01:00:27,480 --> 01:00:32,080
Speaker 1: working on your head so that you can redeploy. Yeah, yeah, exactly. No,

1126
01:00:32,160 --> 01:00:34,480
Speaker 1: I think that's I mean, I agree, and that's part

1127
01:00:34,480 --> 01:00:36,720
Speaker 1: of I mean for us, that's you know, one of

1128
01:00:36,760 --> 01:00:39,400
Speaker 1: the reasons, Um, that is the reason really that you know,

1129
01:00:39,480 --> 01:00:43,680
Speaker 1: I chose to even write Wars story was not to um,

1130
01:00:43,760 --> 01:00:46,200
Speaker 1: you know, just try and reflect on something that you know,

1131
01:00:46,240 --> 01:00:48,440
Speaker 1: as you say, we normally don't talk about you know

1132
01:00:48,520 --> 01:00:51,640
Speaker 1: that happens fifteen years ago, because at the end of

1133
01:00:51,640 --> 01:00:54,480
Speaker 1: the day, you know, there's lots of sad stories that

1134
01:00:54,480 --> 01:00:57,440
Speaker 1: we can tell. But if we can put those stories

1135
01:00:57,480 --> 01:01:02,040
Speaker 1: in service of something, then um, then maybe that's meaningful.

1136
01:01:02,160 --> 01:01:04,680
Speaker 1: And I think even you know, to your point, you know,

1137
01:01:04,680 --> 01:01:06,600
Speaker 1: whether intersects with mental health or not. I think the

1138
01:01:07,120 --> 01:01:13,439
Speaker 1: very notion of UM demystifying um a you know, sort

1139
01:01:13,440 --> 01:01:15,919
Speaker 1: of black hawk down version of war. And it's even

1140
01:01:15,960 --> 01:01:18,200
Speaker 1: so funny, like even whether it's a film or anything

1141
01:01:18,240 --> 01:01:20,240
Speaker 1: else in the media about war, oftentimes you see what

1142
01:01:20,280 --> 01:01:24,120
Speaker 1: you want to see, you know, Um, you see UM

1143
01:01:24,200 --> 01:01:28,000
Speaker 1: the heroism, you see the camaraderie, and you see um,

1144
01:01:28,040 --> 01:01:31,080
Speaker 1: you know, all these things, and you don't see the

1145
01:01:31,080 --> 01:01:33,920
Speaker 1: other side of that. UM that that that isn't always

1146
01:01:33,920 --> 01:01:35,960
Speaker 1: the case. I mean I tell people that too. It's

1147
01:01:36,000 --> 01:01:38,480
Speaker 1: just like, you know, just like you know, don't assume

1148
01:01:38,640 --> 01:01:40,360
Speaker 1: that just because somebody has been in the army and

1149
01:01:40,400 --> 01:01:44,080
Speaker 1: deployed a million times that they're suffering from postmatic stress. UM,

1150
01:01:44,120 --> 01:01:47,560
Speaker 1: don't assume that just like everyone doesn't get a gunshot

1151
01:01:47,600 --> 01:01:51,439
Speaker 1: one UM, So don't assume that. At the same time,

1152
01:01:51,480 --> 01:01:53,600
Speaker 1: don't assume that just because somebody was like me who

1153
01:01:53,640 --> 01:01:56,080
Speaker 1: had a white collar job and was high functioning. Don't

1154
01:01:56,120 --> 01:01:58,960
Speaker 1: assume that just because I'm not homeless, it doesn't mean

1155
01:01:58,960 --> 01:02:01,040
Speaker 1: that I'm doing okay, because for a lot of years

1156
01:02:01,080 --> 01:02:05,280
Speaker 1: I wasn't um and Um. I was hiding behind uh

1157
01:02:05,320 --> 01:02:07,680
Speaker 1: you know success. I was hiding. You know, I'm medicating

1158
01:02:07,680 --> 01:02:13,240
Speaker 1: with alcohol and managing on my own, um, not having language,

1159
01:02:13,480 --> 01:02:16,880
Speaker 1: and and feeling you know, just my own guilt for

1160
01:02:17,440 --> 01:02:20,400
Speaker 1: even if I was wounded. Internally, I felt like, because

1161
01:02:20,440 --> 01:02:22,560
Speaker 1: I was a shooter in the incident, I don't deserve

1162
01:02:22,600 --> 01:02:24,600
Speaker 1: to be well. You know, it's just like, you know,

1163
01:02:24,640 --> 01:02:28,040
Speaker 1: other people didn't come home. I did, and so you

1164
01:02:28,320 --> 01:02:30,880
Speaker 1: need to be thankful for what you have and stop

1165
01:02:31,000 --> 01:02:33,760
Speaker 1: you know, your arranger, dammit, you know, stop whining and

1166
01:02:33,840 --> 01:02:36,360
Speaker 1: whining about it. And it's just like, well, those two

1167
01:02:36,360 --> 01:02:38,120
Speaker 1: things have nothing to do with one another. You know.

1168
01:02:38,600 --> 01:02:42,440
Speaker 1: It's like, if you're hurt, you're hurt, um and um,

1169
01:02:42,480 --> 01:02:45,360
Speaker 1: just because other people aren't here, you're not doing the

1170
01:02:45,360 --> 01:02:48,160
Speaker 1: people in your life that matter a service by continuing

1171
01:02:48,160 --> 01:02:51,920
Speaker 1: to be wounded. Um that that's not heroic. You're not

1172
01:02:51,960 --> 01:02:54,200
Speaker 1: taking one for just kind of like wallowing in your

1173
01:02:54,200 --> 01:02:57,200
Speaker 1: pain at a certain point. Yeah, and you're becoming defined

1174
01:02:57,240 --> 01:02:58,920
Speaker 1: by it anything. I was being funny to think about,

1175
01:02:59,040 --> 01:03:02,480
Speaker 1: you know. Um, and sometimes those those events, even though

1176
01:03:02,480 --> 01:03:04,400
Speaker 1: we would say gush, I could change them in a heartbeat,

1177
01:03:04,800 --> 01:03:07,440
Speaker 1: they then become in a weird perverse way, part of

1178
01:03:07,440 --> 01:03:10,439
Speaker 1: your own internal identity. And then it's like, I don't

1179
01:03:10,440 --> 01:03:12,680
Speaker 1: know if I want to let that go, Like who

1180
01:03:12,720 --> 01:03:15,600
Speaker 1: am I if I'm not this broken person from this incident.

1181
01:03:15,640 --> 01:03:17,200
Speaker 1: While it's just like, well, you can be a well

1182
01:03:17,320 --> 01:03:19,720
Speaker 1: person or you can be like you know what I mean,

1183
01:03:19,760 --> 01:03:22,560
Speaker 1: like whatever that journey looks like there, there can be

1184
01:03:22,560 --> 01:03:25,400
Speaker 1: a journey and it doesn't just have to be um

1185
01:03:25,720 --> 01:03:29,880
Speaker 1: uh that being stuck in that and um, I mean

1186
01:03:29,920 --> 01:03:33,160
Speaker 1: that's yeah. I mean that's a lot of my experience anyway,

1187
01:03:33,200 --> 01:03:35,440
Speaker 1: and what took me way longer to learn that it

1188
01:03:35,440 --> 01:03:38,440
Speaker 1: probably needed to but um, but yeah, I mean it's

1189
01:03:38,440 --> 01:03:40,600
Speaker 1: interesting because you don't hear about that. In fact, it

1190
01:03:40,640 --> 01:03:43,160
Speaker 1: was funny. I had the platoon sergeant who took over

1191
01:03:43,160 --> 01:03:47,120
Speaker 1: a second platoon after that deployment. Um, he was coming

1192
01:03:47,160 --> 01:03:51,080
Speaker 1: back to Eco second Italian he'd grown up there, and

1193
01:03:51,080 --> 01:03:52,480
Speaker 1: that was One of the first things that he shared

1194
01:03:52,480 --> 01:03:54,560
Speaker 1: with me after you know, I just got told of

1195
01:03:54,600 --> 01:03:57,200
Speaker 1: was getting URFS by the company commander. He was just like, hey,

1196
01:03:57,400 --> 01:03:59,120
Speaker 1: he was just like, he didn't he did it in

1197
01:03:59,120 --> 01:04:03,440
Speaker 1: such a way that was um so e seven ish

1198
01:04:03,520 --> 01:04:09,120
Speaker 1: of him, do not um not in some way um

1199
01:04:09,400 --> 01:04:12,000
Speaker 1: cast a pallor on the decision the company commander. But

1200
01:04:12,080 --> 01:04:14,600
Speaker 1: at the same time he was just like, um, this

1201
01:04:14,720 --> 01:04:18,720
Speaker 1: purple heart on my rack, he said, that's from family

1202
01:04:18,720 --> 01:04:21,160
Speaker 1: fire I got. I got shot at one of my guys,

1203
01:04:21,360 --> 01:04:23,480
Speaker 1: you know, X number of years ago. And that's pretty

1204
01:04:23,520 --> 01:04:25,280
Speaker 1: much all he said. And then and then he said,

1205
01:04:25,360 --> 01:04:27,800
Speaker 1: you know, if you need anything for me, ever, he said,

1206
01:04:27,800 --> 01:04:30,280
Speaker 1: here's my number, you call me. And that was pretty

1207
01:04:30,360 --> 01:04:32,040
Speaker 1: much the end of it. But it was like and

1208
01:04:32,080 --> 01:04:35,440
Speaker 1: there was a lot of those little moments um where

1209
01:04:36,120 --> 01:04:38,479
Speaker 1: people weren't asked because it is like your to your point,

1210
01:04:38,520 --> 01:04:42,840
Speaker 1: like ranger regiment. It's like, I mean, once you're once

1211
01:04:42,880 --> 01:04:45,080
Speaker 1: you're the guy getting RFS, it kind of doesn't even matter.

1212
01:04:45,160 --> 01:04:47,560
Speaker 1: Why just the fact that you are getting RFS just

1213
01:04:47,600 --> 01:04:51,440
Speaker 1: proof that you did something wrong. And yeah, and if

1214
01:04:51,480 --> 01:04:53,480
Speaker 1: nothing else, like whatever it is, even if it's just

1215
01:04:53,520 --> 01:04:57,000
Speaker 1: bad luck, like whatever, it is that you have, like

1216
01:04:57,160 --> 01:05:00,680
Speaker 1: it might be contagious, and so don't want to get

1217
01:05:01,160 --> 01:05:04,080
Speaker 1: too close. Um, because I was that way, you know,

1218
01:05:04,080 --> 01:05:05,760
Speaker 1: I remember I remembering that way. You know, guys who

1219
01:05:05,800 --> 01:05:07,000
Speaker 1: were you know, on the way out of the unit

1220
01:05:07,000 --> 01:05:10,920
Speaker 1: for whatever reason. It's just like yeah, okay, um, it's

1221
01:05:10,920 --> 01:05:15,360
Speaker 1: guilty tail proven innocent. And so yeah, the culture is

1222
01:05:15,400 --> 01:05:19,600
Speaker 1: certainly a challenge. But yeah, I mean that's just really

1223
01:05:19,600 --> 01:05:22,160
Speaker 1: interesting how those how how our experiences in that way

1224
01:05:22,200 --> 01:05:26,720
Speaker 1: I think have have kind of intersected. Yeah. Man, it's surreal. Um,

1225
01:05:26,880 --> 01:05:30,560
Speaker 1: and it gets even stranger. Um. So my platoon sergeant

1226
01:05:30,640 --> 01:05:35,240
Speaker 1: at the time was Jared van alist Um, and I

1227
01:05:35,280 --> 01:05:37,240
Speaker 1: read about him in the book also, and me and

1228
01:05:37,320 --> 01:05:39,840
Speaker 1: him had kind of a contentious relationship in some ways

1229
01:05:39,920 --> 01:05:42,320
Speaker 1: because well there are a variety of reasons. But he

1230
01:05:42,360 --> 01:05:45,920
Speaker 1: was my platoon sergeant and sniper section. And then after

1231
01:05:45,960 --> 01:05:50,680
Speaker 1: that deployment he fired me from sniper section and he

1232
01:05:50,760 --> 01:05:54,000
Speaker 1: it's and so I get sent back to Alpha Company. Um,

1233
01:05:54,040 --> 01:05:57,240
Speaker 1: so I'm in Alpha Company, no ship. I shaved my

1234
01:05:57,320 --> 01:06:00,400
Speaker 1: beard off. I was there for a day. One day

1235
01:06:00,720 --> 01:06:03,360
Speaker 1: and my new squad leader comes up to me, says, murph,

1236
01:06:03,480 --> 01:06:06,040
Speaker 1: our platoon sergeant, he's getting the can. There's a new

1237
01:06:06,080 --> 01:06:09,760
Speaker 1: one coming. His name's van Alice. I'm like, are you

1238
01:06:09,840 --> 01:06:13,680
Speaker 1: for real? Man? So van Alice van Alice was my

1239
01:06:13,720 --> 01:06:17,800
Speaker 1: platoon sergeant twice. UM. But when he came, when he

1240
01:06:17,880 --> 01:06:20,880
Speaker 1: came and took charge, when he became the platoon sergeant

1241
01:06:20,960 --> 01:06:25,280
Speaker 1: of of the Glory Boys whose first platoon aco, UM,

1242
01:06:25,680 --> 01:06:29,000
Speaker 1: he handled it and he handled me differently. And in

1243
01:06:29,120 --> 01:06:32,040
Speaker 1: hindsight I can see that he was looking over me

1244
01:06:32,320 --> 01:06:35,120
Speaker 1: like he didn't rfs me right, he just sent me

1245
01:06:35,160 --> 01:06:39,080
Speaker 1: to another company. Um. And when he was my platoon sergeant,

1246
01:06:39,320 --> 01:06:42,560
Speaker 1: like he was kind of like looking after me. It

1247
01:06:42,640 --> 01:06:45,000
Speaker 1: wasn't like he wasn't like out to get me the

1248
01:06:45,040 --> 01:06:47,600
Speaker 1: way I thought at the time. At the time, I'm

1249
01:06:47,640 --> 01:06:51,640
Speaker 1: actually very angry with him. Um. But in hindsight I

1250
01:06:51,640 --> 01:06:53,760
Speaker 1: can see that really he was kind of looking after me,

1251
01:06:53,920 --> 01:06:57,680
Speaker 1: That's really what he was doing. So after that deployment,

1252
01:06:57,800 --> 01:07:00,320
Speaker 1: I went to s f A S That next to apointment,

1253
01:07:00,320 --> 01:07:01,920
Speaker 1: we went to Iraq. I came back, went to s

1254
01:07:02,000 --> 01:07:06,040
Speaker 1: f A s UM, I went to UM before I

1255
01:07:06,080 --> 01:07:07,720
Speaker 1: went to the Q course. You know, he had a

1256
01:07:07,760 --> 01:07:10,080
Speaker 1: little like pow wow for me and gave me a

1257
01:07:10,120 --> 01:07:13,000
Speaker 1: plaque and stuff it was really cool, and you know,

1258
01:07:13,080 --> 01:07:15,960
Speaker 1: we shook hands and it was it was cool. But

1259
01:07:16,160 --> 01:07:18,520
Speaker 1: I went to Fort Bragg started the Q course. UM

1260
01:07:18,640 --> 01:07:21,280
Speaker 1: lost touch with van Alice um as I was getting

1261
01:07:21,320 --> 01:07:23,600
Speaker 1: out of the army. Years later, in two thousand and ten,

1262
01:07:24,360 --> 01:07:28,640
Speaker 1: I heard the sergeant van Alice had been killed. Well,

1263
01:07:28,680 --> 01:07:31,680
Speaker 1: I found out what happened was he he had gone

1264
01:07:31,840 --> 01:07:34,040
Speaker 1: as as was his goal. I think for a long time.

1265
01:07:34,080 --> 01:07:37,400
Speaker 1: He went to Delta Force selection, became an operator, his

1266
01:07:37,520 --> 01:07:39,640
Speaker 1: first I believe it was his first apployment with the

1267
01:07:39,720 --> 01:07:47,520
Speaker 1: unit to Afghanistan. He was killed in a friendly fire incident. Yeah.

1268
01:07:47,720 --> 01:07:51,480
Speaker 1: And the reason why I I point this out because

1269
01:07:51,560 --> 01:07:55,360
Speaker 1: a these these incidents are way more common than people think.

1270
01:07:56,240 --> 01:07:59,480
Speaker 1: And second, as hard a pill as it is to swallow,

1271
01:08:00,320 --> 01:08:05,240
Speaker 1: these things happen in our most professional, most highly trained units.

1272
01:08:05,320 --> 01:08:08,360
Speaker 1: So for us to walk around and think that it

1273
01:08:08,480 --> 01:08:11,760
Speaker 1: can't happen to you, you think you're too cool for school,

1274
01:08:11,800 --> 01:08:14,360
Speaker 1: that this can't happen, that's like the first hurdle that

1275
01:08:14,440 --> 01:08:18,520
Speaker 1: we all need to be disabused of this fantasy. It happens,

1276
01:08:18,720 --> 01:08:21,920
Speaker 1: It happens, it can happen, and if you're not really

1277
01:08:22,000 --> 01:08:26,240
Speaker 1: damn careful, it will happen um. And and that's why

1278
01:08:26,439 --> 01:08:29,120
Speaker 1: that was my motivation really for coming forward and talking

1279
01:08:29,160 --> 01:08:32,960
Speaker 1: about this. Because I joined the army because I read

1280
01:08:33,000 --> 01:08:35,000
Speaker 1: a lot of memoirs written by guys who are like

1281
01:08:35,200 --> 01:08:38,599
Speaker 1: orps and rangers in Vietnam, and so I figured that

1282
01:08:38,640 --> 01:08:40,960
Speaker 1: there's probably some eighteen year old kids who are going

1283
01:08:41,000 --> 01:08:44,400
Speaker 1: to read my book or read your book, and I

1284
01:08:44,479 --> 01:08:46,280
Speaker 1: want them to know the whole story. I want them

1285
01:08:46,280 --> 01:08:48,679
Speaker 1: to know the truth so that hopefully they can avoid

1286
01:08:48,720 --> 01:08:51,880
Speaker 1: some of this. Yeah, because I think it's so good,

1287
01:08:51,880 --> 01:08:53,600
Speaker 1: because I think the other thing is too like you know,

1288
01:08:53,720 --> 01:08:56,080
Speaker 1: friendly fire, No, which I think friendly fire is about.

1289
01:08:56,800 --> 01:08:59,679
Speaker 1: I think it's about the apex of you know, guilt

1290
01:08:59,720 --> 01:09:02,680
Speaker 1: and ing that you can carry around um and and

1291
01:09:02,760 --> 01:09:05,320
Speaker 1: still be alive in terms of bad things happening on

1292
01:09:05,320 --> 01:09:08,639
Speaker 1: a deployment um that aren't in the normal range as

1293
01:09:08,680 --> 01:09:11,280
Speaker 1: you put it, as far as well my friends die

1294
01:09:11,360 --> 01:09:14,280
Speaker 1: or I die or something, um that's more like quote

1295
01:09:14,320 --> 01:09:17,040
Speaker 1: unquote normal, Like we have a container for that, But

1296
01:09:17,160 --> 01:09:19,840
Speaker 1: then the friendly firepiece we don't. I mean, I think

1297
01:09:19,880 --> 01:09:23,519
Speaker 1: that sits within this broader issue of just just our

1298
01:09:23,640 --> 01:09:27,439
Speaker 1: expectations in general and our idealism that we bring often

1299
01:09:27,439 --> 01:09:30,160
Speaker 1: to military service, and particularly to serving in a special

1300
01:09:30,160 --> 01:09:34,120
Speaker 1: operations unit. I mean usually those expectations are are pretty

1301
01:09:34,200 --> 01:09:39,799
Speaker 1: high in terms of um, like my or someone's desire

1302
01:09:39,880 --> 01:09:44,120
Speaker 1: to contribute, someone's desire to serve, someone's desire to um,

1303
01:09:44,160 --> 01:09:46,679
Speaker 1: you know, to serve in a positive fashion, and and

1304
01:09:46,720 --> 01:09:49,960
Speaker 1: then have something to be proud of because that title,

1305
01:09:50,000 --> 01:09:53,120
Speaker 1: whether it's seal or ranger, operate or whatever, that can

1306
01:09:53,160 --> 01:09:56,240
Speaker 1: become such a part of your identity. And that's that's

1307
01:09:56,360 --> 01:09:58,640
Speaker 1: dangerous in a way because then, well what does that

1308
01:09:58,680 --> 01:10:03,240
Speaker 1: identity represent. Does it represent your ideal whatever that means

1309
01:10:03,280 --> 01:10:07,360
Speaker 1: of military service, or does it represent shame? And you

1310
01:10:07,400 --> 01:10:09,200
Speaker 1: know how many guys do you know that even if

1311
01:10:09,240 --> 01:10:10,760
Speaker 1: they weren't part of it or shoot an a front

1312
01:10:10,800 --> 01:10:14,040
Speaker 1: of fire incident, um, they feel like they didn't do enough. Um.

1313
01:10:14,080 --> 01:10:15,960
Speaker 1: They feel like, you know, I didn't go on enough

1314
01:10:15,960 --> 01:10:18,799
Speaker 1: deployments or you know, things didn't go as I thought,

1315
01:10:19,000 --> 01:10:22,120
Speaker 1: And I think it is so um yeah, it's just

1316
01:10:22,160 --> 01:10:26,880
Speaker 1: really dangerous too. It's dangerous to go down that road

1317
01:10:27,120 --> 01:10:29,559
Speaker 1: of expectation. Then when you're young, it's it's really easy

1318
01:10:29,600 --> 01:10:32,160
Speaker 1: to go there because you don't know, and then all

1319
01:10:32,160 --> 01:10:34,600
Speaker 1: of a sudden you're couching your experience in such a

1320
01:10:34,640 --> 01:10:38,080
Speaker 1: way where if it doesn't look like X, then it's

1321
01:10:38,120 --> 01:10:41,880
Speaker 1: a failure. And Um, I think that's just we do

1322
01:10:41,920 --> 01:10:45,439
Speaker 1: ourselves a disservice with that, um and um, and I

1323
01:10:45,520 --> 01:10:47,320
Speaker 1: think it's I think it's a great I think it's

1324
01:10:47,320 --> 01:10:49,639
Speaker 1: a great message, Jack, And I think that's it's good,

1325
01:10:50,479 --> 01:10:53,479
Speaker 1: not not in a way to like diminished service or

1326
01:10:53,520 --> 01:10:56,400
Speaker 1: to diminish you know, the you know, the good things

1327
01:10:56,479 --> 01:11:00,120
Speaker 1: of those units that just yeah, like you don't you

1328
01:11:00,160 --> 01:11:03,920
Speaker 1: don't have control in some respects like I didn't, you do,

1329
01:11:04,000 --> 01:11:07,120
Speaker 1: and you don't like be humble because you don't know

1330
01:11:07,160 --> 01:11:09,280
Speaker 1: what situation you're gonna be put in. Learned from the

1331
01:11:09,280 --> 01:11:12,080
Speaker 1: mistakes of others, Learned from my mistakes, learned from your

1332
01:11:12,200 --> 01:11:15,200
Speaker 1: you know, like we make mistakes, learn from those I

1333
01:11:15,280 --> 01:11:18,160
Speaker 1: don't think they can't happen to you, and then understand

1334
01:11:18,160 --> 01:11:20,200
Speaker 1: that there's just a lot of things outside of your control.

1335
01:11:20,240 --> 01:11:22,599
Speaker 1: I didn't decide to slip to the tune. I didn't

1336
01:11:22,600 --> 01:11:25,960
Speaker 1: just decide to, you know, initiate movement at desk. Um.

1337
01:11:26,000 --> 01:11:28,799
Speaker 1: You know, the world you have responsibility for your decisions

1338
01:11:28,800 --> 01:11:30,200
Speaker 1: as a human, and at the same time, the world

1339
01:11:30,240 --> 01:11:33,040
Speaker 1: doesn't at all around you and and that can be sometimes.

1340
01:11:33,120 --> 01:11:34,479
Speaker 1: As for me, and for a long time that was

1341
01:11:34,560 --> 01:11:36,840
Speaker 1: really hard tension to hold because I either felt like

1342
01:11:37,560 --> 01:11:40,840
Speaker 1: I was, you know, a victim, which was not true,

1343
01:11:41,360 --> 01:11:43,719
Speaker 1: or I felt like I caused the whole thing, which

1344
01:11:43,760 --> 01:11:46,880
Speaker 1: was also not true. And so it's just the truth

1345
01:11:47,000 --> 01:11:49,599
Speaker 1: is usually a lot more complicated than that. And when

1346
01:11:49,640 --> 01:11:52,040
Speaker 1: we're hurting and we're dealing with trauma and we're dealing

1347
01:11:52,080 --> 01:11:56,160
Speaker 1: with regret our, our emotions can are real, but they

1348
01:11:56,160 --> 01:11:59,160
Speaker 1: can get the best of us sometimes. And so um, anyway,

1349
01:11:59,240 --> 01:12:02,000
Speaker 1: now I think that's I'm right there with you. I

1350
01:12:02,040 --> 01:12:05,599
Speaker 1: think not to glorify it, but just say, hey, this

1351
01:12:05,680 --> 01:12:09,200
Speaker 1: is this happens, um, and it's not ash and we

1352
01:12:09,280 --> 01:12:12,160
Speaker 1: want it, we want it to never happen. UM. But

1353
01:12:12,280 --> 01:12:14,960
Speaker 1: it does. And regardless of all of the cool guys

1354
01:12:14,960 --> 01:12:18,280
Speaker 1: ship you were into war, UM, fratricide continues to be

1355
01:12:18,479 --> 01:12:21,200
Speaker 1: friendly fire continues to be a part of just the

1356
01:12:21,560 --> 01:12:24,400
Speaker 1: chaos that is war and that will probably never change.

1357
01:12:25,320 --> 01:12:28,439
Speaker 1: So after all those years, like you said, you're carrying around,

1358
01:12:28,560 --> 01:12:31,559
Speaker 1: you know, carrying this like shame you felt inside, like

1359
01:12:31,720 --> 01:12:34,519
Speaker 1: what made you sit down and decide to write about it?

1360
01:12:34,560 --> 01:12:37,240
Speaker 1: After all those years. Yeah. I mean at first had

1361
01:12:37,240 --> 01:12:39,880
Speaker 1: happened five years ago, when the ten year anniversary of

1362
01:12:39,960 --> 01:12:44,400
Speaker 1: the incident, um ESPN came knocking. And then they were

1363
01:12:44,640 --> 01:12:47,360
Speaker 1: they were wanting to do a piece from the shooter's perspective,

1364
01:12:47,920 --> 01:12:51,640
Speaker 1: because no one had really done that, and initially I

1365
01:12:51,640 --> 01:12:54,040
Speaker 1: said no. And then because I was the only one

1366
01:12:54,080 --> 01:12:57,400
Speaker 1: that would would really talk, or that they had a

1367
01:12:57,439 --> 01:13:01,479
Speaker 1: beat on in talking and and um, we sat down

1368
01:13:01,560 --> 01:13:03,760
Speaker 1: with the producer and just said, look, if we're just

1369
01:13:03,760 --> 01:13:06,360
Speaker 1: going to have a conversation about this thing that happened

1370
01:13:06,360 --> 01:13:10,120
Speaker 1: fifteen years ago, um, um, for the sake of, you know,

1371
01:13:10,160 --> 01:13:13,840
Speaker 1: stimulating people's tear ducks, I'm not interested. Um. I had

1372
01:13:13,840 --> 01:13:16,000
Speaker 1: better things to do, and I've spent the last ten

1373
01:13:16,080 --> 01:13:20,120
Speaker 1: years trying to distance myself from that, and frankly worried. Um,

1374
01:13:20,840 --> 01:13:22,759
Speaker 1: I mean I can remember, just give you for instance.

1375
01:13:23,040 --> 01:13:25,840
Speaker 1: I can remember. You know, I'm a wealth manager at

1376
01:13:25,920 --> 01:13:29,280
Speaker 1: Smith Barney and one of my partners we bumped into

1377
01:13:29,280 --> 01:13:31,240
Speaker 1: each other in the lunch room and he looked a

1378
01:13:31,240 --> 01:13:33,200
Speaker 1: little bleary eyed, and I was like, hey, you know,

1379
01:13:33,320 --> 01:13:35,320
Speaker 1: how's it going sed And he was like, oh man,

1380
01:13:35,360 --> 01:13:37,800
Speaker 1: he's like hardly, he's like getting enough sleep. Last night,

1381
01:13:37,800 --> 01:13:40,240
Speaker 1: I'm reading that new crack Our book and just like

1382
01:13:40,400 --> 01:13:44,040
Speaker 1: my my heart just stopped. Uh it's you know, crack

1383
01:13:44,080 --> 01:13:46,560
Speaker 1: Ours book where men when Glory, and Uh. I was

1384
01:13:46,600 --> 01:13:48,920
Speaker 1: just like, oh, really, what what part are you at?

1385
01:13:49,479 --> 01:13:53,240
Speaker 1: And he's at a part where mine I'm not prominent

1386
01:13:53,240 --> 01:13:54,840
Speaker 1: in the book, but I'm my name is mentioned in

1387
01:13:54,880 --> 01:13:57,040
Speaker 1: the book, and he'd read he'd read my name a

1388
01:13:57,120 --> 01:13:59,080
Speaker 1: number of times, but never put it together that I

1389
01:13:59,160 --> 01:14:00,920
Speaker 1: was one of the guys, because that's not what you

1390
01:14:01,360 --> 01:14:03,760
Speaker 1: that's what you're, not what you expect. And so the

1391
01:14:03,760 --> 01:14:05,880
Speaker 1: following day I basically just like, you know, if you,

1392
01:14:06,040 --> 01:14:07,800
Speaker 1: if you figures like I just need to tell him.

1393
01:14:08,200 --> 01:14:10,840
Speaker 1: But it was that sort of like I was trying

1394
01:14:10,840 --> 01:14:13,240
Speaker 1: really hard for ten years too. I wasn't like sometimes

1395
01:14:13,280 --> 01:14:14,920
Speaker 1: I wouldn't even tell people I was in the army

1396
01:14:15,160 --> 01:14:17,519
Speaker 1: because you don't know what like lines of questionings you're

1397
01:14:17,520 --> 01:14:20,519
Speaker 1: gonna get. Um, Like most people they don't have a clue.

1398
01:14:21,040 --> 01:14:23,880
Speaker 1: Army cool. Some people, Oh army, what would you do?

1399
01:14:24,120 --> 01:14:26,479
Speaker 1: I was infantry? Oh, infantry, what did you do? Well?

1400
01:14:26,520 --> 01:14:28,360
Speaker 1: I was? And then all of a sudden their cousin

1401
01:14:28,560 --> 01:14:31,320
Speaker 1: was a platoon sergeant in Beko and you're just like,

1402
01:14:31,360 --> 01:14:34,160
Speaker 1: well ship, you know, like you don't want to go

1403
01:14:34,240 --> 01:14:37,280
Speaker 1: down that line of questioning, and then have people put together,

1404
01:14:37,360 --> 01:14:39,320
Speaker 1: oh wait a second, you weren't at the regiment for

1405
01:14:39,360 --> 01:14:41,040
Speaker 1: even a full year, and you never got your tab

1406
01:14:41,120 --> 01:14:43,800
Speaker 1: and etcetera, etcetera, And so then it's just it's just

1407
01:14:43,880 --> 01:14:46,080
Speaker 1: easier to not even engage the conversation. And so that's

1408
01:14:46,120 --> 01:14:48,960
Speaker 1: what I've done for ten years. And so with ESPN

1409
01:14:49,000 --> 01:14:52,160
Speaker 1: we basically said, look, if you're willing to have a conversation, um,

1410
01:14:52,200 --> 01:14:54,240
Speaker 1: not for the sake of just what happened fifteen years ago,

1411
01:14:54,360 --> 01:14:57,840
Speaker 1: but to pivot and use this to highlight the fact

1412
01:14:57,880 --> 01:15:01,320
Speaker 1: that my story, what I experien arian is only unique

1413
01:15:01,320 --> 01:15:03,920
Speaker 1: insofar as it intersected with somebody who played in the NFL.

1414
01:15:04,200 --> 01:15:07,960
Speaker 1: That's it, um. Other than that, the experience of war,

1415
01:15:08,160 --> 01:15:10,200
Speaker 1: the experience of the unseen warns of war, and the

1416
01:15:10,200 --> 01:15:13,439
Speaker 1: experience are friendly fires we've just talked about is not unique.

1417
01:15:13,840 --> 01:15:16,360
Speaker 1: And so if the story is worth talking about, it's

1418
01:15:16,360 --> 01:15:19,400
Speaker 1: worth talking about not because it's unique, but precisely because

1419
01:15:19,400 --> 01:15:23,639
Speaker 1: it's ordinary. And so if if the association with pat

1420
01:15:23,760 --> 01:15:27,519
Speaker 1: gives us some hookum to get me on ESPN or whatever,

1421
01:15:28,040 --> 01:15:31,439
Speaker 1: so that we can highlight this broader issue of veteran

1422
01:15:31,520 --> 01:15:34,879
Speaker 1: suicide and the mental health epidemic and cultural and policy

1423
01:15:34,960 --> 01:15:37,200
Speaker 1: changes that we think need to happen. Sign me up.

1424
01:15:37,720 --> 01:15:39,519
Speaker 1: And so that's what we did five years ago. UM.

1425
01:15:39,680 --> 01:15:42,120
Speaker 1: Certainly a lot of the conversation was just about the

1426
01:15:42,120 --> 01:15:44,120
Speaker 1: fact that, you know, one of the shooters just talking

1427
01:15:44,479 --> 01:15:47,400
Speaker 1: and so it's hard to get beyond that. And then

1428
01:15:47,439 --> 01:15:50,799
Speaker 1: shortly thereafter, you know, we had folks who were, um,

1429
01:15:50,840 --> 01:15:55,280
Speaker 1: you know, interested in helping uh me write the story down,

1430
01:15:55,800 --> 01:15:57,559
Speaker 1: and that was you know, the four or five year

1431
01:15:57,640 --> 01:16:01,120
Speaker 1: journey um to kind of get that right. And so yeah,

1432
01:16:01,160 --> 01:16:03,439
Speaker 1: that's what it rolled down to, was in the in

1433
01:16:03,479 --> 01:16:07,760
Speaker 1: the aftermath of ESPN piece and some other media, we did, UM,

1434
01:16:08,000 --> 01:16:10,559
Speaker 1: what what you're saying at any given point in time

1435
01:16:10,600 --> 01:16:13,639
Speaker 1: and what other people are hearing maybe two different things.

1436
01:16:14,080 --> 01:16:16,400
Speaker 1: And sometimes you don't always have control. A lot of

1437
01:16:16,439 --> 01:16:18,639
Speaker 1: times you don't have control about what people are getting

1438
01:16:18,680 --> 01:16:21,360
Speaker 1: out of what you're what you're saying. But what people

1439
01:16:21,400 --> 01:16:24,000
Speaker 1: seem to be getting out of it was I'm not alone,

1440
01:16:24,400 --> 01:16:28,400
Speaker 1: civilians and military alike. UM. They were basically communicating that

1441
01:16:29,280 --> 01:16:31,639
Speaker 1: thank you for talking about this, thank you for talking

1442
01:16:31,720 --> 01:16:34,200
Speaker 1: like kind of a sigh, Like I've dealt with depression

1443
01:16:34,200 --> 01:16:36,640
Speaker 1: and anxiety. My dad was a Korean War that my

1444
01:16:36,720 --> 01:16:39,200
Speaker 1: dad was in viet not like like, all these stories

1445
01:16:39,200 --> 01:16:41,880
Speaker 1: started coming out, and so the upshot of it was

1446
01:16:42,720 --> 01:16:45,400
Speaker 1: maybe this is doing some good. So if it's doing

1447
01:16:45,479 --> 01:16:48,479
Speaker 1: some good, then let's continue to tell that story in

1448
01:16:48,520 --> 01:16:52,679
Speaker 1: a more broader medium as a memoir UM. And then

1449
01:16:52,760 --> 01:16:57,960
Speaker 1: really specifically putting that story in service of U two things.

1450
01:16:57,960 --> 01:17:00,120
Speaker 1: I mean, any proceeds of the book, UM, we're being

1451
01:17:00,160 --> 01:17:03,800
Speaker 1: away to other organizations UM that are doing good work

1452
01:17:04,040 --> 01:17:07,559
Speaker 1: UM needing mental health needs of the veteran community. But

1453
01:17:07,600 --> 01:17:10,559
Speaker 1: then advocating using that as a platform to advocate for

1454
01:17:10,600 --> 01:17:14,680
Speaker 1: specific policy change at the active duty level, not just

1455
01:17:14,720 --> 01:17:17,600
Speaker 1: within the v A because obviously to the extent that

1456
01:17:17,680 --> 01:17:20,560
Speaker 1: there's unseen wounds UM, as frustrating as a v A

1457
01:17:20,680 --> 01:17:24,200
Speaker 1: can be, those wounds aren't incurred waiting in line at

1458
01:17:24,200 --> 01:17:28,720
Speaker 1: a VA hospital. They're incurred in Afghanistan, Interact, etcetera. And

1459
01:17:28,800 --> 01:17:32,120
Speaker 1: so UM, you know, we want to advocate and fight

1460
01:17:32,280 --> 01:17:35,840
Speaker 1: for UM from making significant policy changes, you know, one

1461
01:17:35,840 --> 01:17:37,960
Speaker 1: of which you just kind of outline previously as far

1462
01:17:38,000 --> 01:17:41,040
Speaker 1: as just to be stigmatization. UM. You know, nobody asks

1463
01:17:41,600 --> 01:17:44,960
Speaker 1: your permission to get an anthrax vaccine. At least our

1464
01:17:45,000 --> 01:17:48,240
Speaker 1: Medics didn't. It's no few wandered by the eight station.

1465
01:17:48,720 --> 01:17:52,320
Speaker 1: You know, you're a pin cushion for whatever whatever is mandated,

1466
01:17:52,600 --> 01:17:55,080
Speaker 1: and to some degree that has to be the case, um,

1467
01:17:55,400 --> 01:17:57,920
Speaker 1: with respect to our mental emotional health. Because it's real

1468
01:17:58,600 --> 01:18:01,280
Speaker 1: and so so that's why that's the why of writing

1469
01:18:01,320 --> 01:18:05,559
Speaker 1: it down is um, it's it's because the story is ordinary,

1470
01:18:05,720 --> 01:18:07,880
Speaker 1: and because it's affecting a lot of people, both in

1471
01:18:08,000 --> 01:18:10,840
Speaker 1: uniform and out of uniform, and so that's kind of

1472
01:18:11,280 --> 01:18:14,080
Speaker 1: that's why we're doing it. No, that's awesome that you're

1473
01:18:14,160 --> 01:18:17,240
Speaker 1: trying to use it to, you know, affect some positive change.

1474
01:18:17,920 --> 01:18:22,400
Speaker 1: I uh sorry, it was as you you know said,

1475
01:18:22,439 --> 01:18:25,200
Speaker 1: it's uh, it was like the shameful thing that you know,

1476
01:18:25,240 --> 01:18:27,479
Speaker 1: I carried around in it, and it felt good to

1477
01:18:27,880 --> 01:18:30,960
Speaker 1: write it down. Um. And I had told myself for

1478
01:18:31,000 --> 01:18:34,559
Speaker 1: a long time that I don't want to make the

1479
01:18:34,600 --> 01:18:38,240
Speaker 1: story about me, like I didn't and that's why I

1480
01:18:38,240 --> 01:18:40,120
Speaker 1: I never wrote a book. That's why I wasn't telling

1481
01:18:40,160 --> 01:18:43,120
Speaker 1: my stories. Um. You know, I kind of tried to

1482
01:18:43,240 --> 01:18:45,799
Speaker 1: like make myself out like, oh, I'm just so humble.

1483
01:18:45,840 --> 01:18:48,120
Speaker 1: I won't talk about It's like, no, really, really, I

1484
01:18:48,160 --> 01:18:50,720
Speaker 1: won't talk about it because I'm just Uh, it's not

1485
01:18:50,760 --> 01:18:52,920
Speaker 1: that I would ever lie to somebody about it, but

1486
01:18:53,040 --> 01:18:54,840
Speaker 1: I would. I don't want to talk about it if

1487
01:18:54,840 --> 01:18:58,760
Speaker 1: I don't have to. UM. And I even had this

1488
01:18:58,840 --> 01:19:00,720
Speaker 1: experience when I was after I got out of the

1489
01:19:00,800 --> 01:19:03,560
Speaker 1: military and I was in college. I was in Columbia

1490
01:19:04,080 --> 01:19:06,160
Speaker 1: and there was another guy up there. He was a

1491
01:19:06,240 --> 01:19:09,280
Speaker 1: through seven five ranger and he when he went around

1492
01:19:09,320 --> 01:19:11,920
Speaker 1: like trying to poison the well, uh telling people you

1493
01:19:12,520 --> 01:19:15,200
Speaker 1: know who Jack, you know who Jack Murphy is. You

1494
01:19:15,240 --> 01:19:18,080
Speaker 1: know what he did? Guys, guy, I think he's a

1495
01:19:18,160 --> 01:19:21,160
Speaker 1: legitimate psychopath. But he went around doing that, and I

1496
01:19:21,240 --> 01:19:27,519
Speaker 1: was like, I was like, god, damn, like talk about

1497
01:19:27,520 --> 01:19:30,240
Speaker 1: a kick balls like low blow. I was like, if

1498
01:19:30,240 --> 01:19:31,320
Speaker 1: you want to, if you want to have you have

1499
01:19:31,320 --> 01:19:35,040
Speaker 1: a problem with me, like come to me, but don't. Yeah,

1500
01:19:35,080 --> 01:19:38,320
Speaker 1: that's just that's pretty Yeah, it's and it's still something

1501
01:19:38,360 --> 01:19:41,040
Speaker 1: to this day that people used to attack me. UM

1502
01:19:41,080 --> 01:19:43,200
Speaker 1: because I mean, and I guess I invite it to

1503
01:19:43,240 --> 01:19:46,640
Speaker 1: a certain extent um because I work as a journalist

1504
01:19:46,640 --> 01:19:49,240
Speaker 1: and I write things about, you know, special operations that

1505
01:19:49,360 --> 01:19:52,639
Speaker 1: some people they don't want to hear it. So that's

1506
01:19:52,640 --> 01:19:55,040
Speaker 1: the that's the backlash to it. And I think maybe

1507
01:19:55,080 --> 01:19:57,160
Speaker 1: now that now you got me thinking about it, maybe

1508
01:19:57,360 --> 01:20:00,600
Speaker 1: I have Maybe I've done too much to celebrate my

1509
01:20:00,680 --> 01:20:06,400
Speaker 1: pariahs status over the years. Yeah, well, I mean it's

1510
01:20:06,400 --> 01:20:09,479
Speaker 1: a fine line. I mean it's again, people sometimes they

1511
01:20:09,560 --> 01:20:13,200
Speaker 1: can just in having the broaching the conversation can be

1512
01:20:13,320 --> 01:20:16,439
Speaker 1: viewed as a threat in any way, and um, and

1513
01:20:16,439 --> 01:20:18,519
Speaker 1: everyone's coming at it from a different angle. I mean,

1514
01:20:18,600 --> 01:20:23,160
Speaker 1: oftentimes I think there is a danger where um, I

1515
01:20:23,160 --> 01:20:27,120
Speaker 1: mean I've seen this to myself, I've seen another's where Um,

1516
01:20:27,280 --> 01:20:29,679
Speaker 1: sometimes the pendulum swings a little bit too far once

1517
01:20:29,720 --> 01:20:32,679
Speaker 1: we step into the space of I am talking about

1518
01:20:32,720 --> 01:20:35,160
Speaker 1: something and I am talking about pain that I have,

1519
01:20:35,640 --> 01:20:38,920
Speaker 1: brokenness that I've experienced. There's a fine line between being

1520
01:20:38,960 --> 01:20:43,360
Speaker 1: open about that properly and celebrating it. And we don't.

1521
01:20:43,400 --> 01:20:45,360
Speaker 1: We're not that's the point isn't to celebrate it. And

1522
01:20:45,400 --> 01:20:48,200
Speaker 1: sometimes even if you're trying really hard not to celebrate it,

1523
01:20:48,240 --> 01:20:51,800
Speaker 1: that's how people can take it is that you're you know,

1524
01:20:51,840 --> 01:20:53,559
Speaker 1: you're trying to just kind of hang out there and

1525
01:20:53,600 --> 01:20:56,360
Speaker 1: it's just like, no, it's not the point but it

1526
01:20:56,439 --> 01:21:01,400
Speaker 1: did happen and and it's UM, and it's and it's

1527
01:21:01,439 --> 01:21:04,800
Speaker 1: not even to necessarily defend yourself, not to try and

1528
01:21:05,120 --> 01:21:08,760
Speaker 1: be your own apologist. It's just to say that UM,

1529
01:21:08,840 --> 01:21:11,280
Speaker 1: because because there has to be a certain amount of

1530
01:21:12,000 --> 01:21:14,320
Speaker 1: UM for any of us. I think we're we become

1531
01:21:14,600 --> 01:21:18,880
Speaker 1: less effective in our work UM when we're not humble. UM.

1532
01:21:18,920 --> 01:21:21,280
Speaker 1: And the moment that you think something couldn't happen to you,

1533
01:21:21,360 --> 01:21:23,960
Speaker 1: at the moment that you become more susceptible to that

1534
01:21:23,960 --> 01:21:27,479
Speaker 1: thing occurring because you think you're above it all. You know,

1535
01:21:27,600 --> 01:21:29,920
Speaker 1: they look at your decision, and they look at my decision,

1536
01:21:30,320 --> 01:21:32,200
Speaker 1: and maybe I did deserve at urfs. I don't know.

1537
01:21:32,880 --> 01:21:35,040
Speaker 1: I'm not I'm not arguing that one way or the other.

1538
01:21:35,040 --> 01:21:37,800
Speaker 1: People could come down on that however they want, UM,

1539
01:21:37,840 --> 01:21:41,000
Speaker 1: But at the very least, look at what happened on

1540
01:21:41,000 --> 01:21:44,360
Speaker 1: a four, Look at what happened, you know, in that

1541
01:21:44,479 --> 01:21:47,280
Speaker 1: day in Afghanistan for you with just at least a

1542
01:21:47,360 --> 01:21:53,040
Speaker 1: grain of humility, and understand that maybe just maybe um,

1543
01:21:53,160 --> 01:21:58,559
Speaker 1: there was there was enough misinformation, enough chaos, Maybe just

1544
01:21:58,680 --> 01:22:04,080
Speaker 1: maybe you're not above making that decision and be vigilant

1545
01:22:04,640 --> 01:22:07,240
Speaker 1: to that ends. Not not you know, I don't say

1546
01:22:07,240 --> 01:22:09,559
Speaker 1: that to say you're no better than me. I hope

1547
01:22:09,560 --> 01:22:12,760
Speaker 1: you're better than me. I really hope you are. You know,

1548
01:22:13,120 --> 01:22:15,960
Speaker 1: I hope you learned from that, because, um my god,

1549
01:22:15,960 --> 01:22:18,320
Speaker 1: I don't want I wouldn't want anyone to experience what

1550
01:22:18,360 --> 01:22:21,000
Speaker 1: I've gone through. Um, you know what you've gone through.

1551
01:22:21,040 --> 01:22:24,519
Speaker 1: War is war is bad enough, and and what we

1552
01:22:24,600 --> 01:22:27,919
Speaker 1: already risk enough and lose enough without doing damage to ourselves.

1553
01:22:28,000 --> 01:22:30,559
Speaker 1: And so so yeah, that's that's a that's a tough

1554
01:22:30,600 --> 01:22:32,160
Speaker 1: line to walk. But but I think there is a

1555
01:22:32,200 --> 01:22:35,920
Speaker 1: certain amount of image that people want to protect, rightly. So,

1556
01:22:36,520 --> 01:22:39,120
Speaker 1: but I think just like just like in in my

1557
01:22:39,200 --> 01:22:42,240
Speaker 1: instance in particular, the regiment never did more damage to

1558
01:22:42,280 --> 01:22:46,400
Speaker 1: itself than in lying about a pretty embarrassing day. They

1559
01:22:46,439 --> 01:22:48,760
Speaker 1: made the day worse. And so I mean that's a

1560
01:22:48,840 --> 01:22:50,439
Speaker 1: lesson to all of us at any point in time,

1561
01:22:50,600 --> 01:22:53,280
Speaker 1: is just you gotta tell the truth and you just

1562
01:22:53,280 --> 01:22:54,680
Speaker 1: got to get it out there. You know. You know

1563
01:22:54,720 --> 01:22:57,880
Speaker 1: what you just reminded me of too, Stephen, that same

1564
01:22:57,920 --> 01:23:03,160
Speaker 1: deployment are our CEO. The regimental commander came out and

1565
01:23:03,160 --> 01:23:05,720
Speaker 1: saw us at one point, and he gave us a

1566
01:23:05,800 --> 01:23:10,439
Speaker 1: speech about all the media drama surrounding the pat Yeah

1567
01:23:10,840 --> 01:23:14,280
Speaker 1: and oh ship, yeah, I'm remembering this now. And he

1568
01:23:14,400 --> 01:23:17,000
Speaker 1: was like defending, you know, the chain of command and

1569
01:23:17,040 --> 01:23:20,880
Speaker 1: how like how like the regiment and so calm and everyone,

1570
01:23:20,880 --> 01:23:25,240
Speaker 1: we're making the right decisions. And yeah, yeah, I forgot

1571
01:23:25,240 --> 01:23:28,760
Speaker 1: all about that. Wow, that's great. Yeah, I mean that's

1572
01:23:29,680 --> 01:23:33,519
Speaker 1: that's it sounds that sounds about right, sadly, um and

1573
01:23:33,680 --> 01:23:37,040
Speaker 1: um yeah, and it's it's it's not a I mean,

1574
01:23:37,040 --> 01:23:40,479
Speaker 1: like any any organization changes over time with respect to

1575
01:23:40,520 --> 01:23:43,280
Speaker 1: its leaders. So I mean, you know, regiment, like any

1576
01:23:43,360 --> 01:23:46,479
Speaker 1: organization ebbs and flows with his leading it. And that's yeah,

1577
01:23:46,479 --> 01:23:50,120
Speaker 1: that's really unfortunate because um, but that's what we have.

1578
01:23:50,200 --> 01:23:51,519
Speaker 1: That But even in that, I mean I've had to

1579
01:23:51,520 --> 01:23:53,679
Speaker 1: come full circle with that too, because you know, I've

1580
01:23:53,680 --> 01:23:55,600
Speaker 1: spent my fair share years, you know, looking at the

1581
01:23:55,640 --> 01:23:59,280
Speaker 1: chain of command and just cursing him up and down. Um.

1582
01:23:59,360 --> 01:24:00,800
Speaker 1: And it's not to say that they didn't do the

1583
01:24:00,800 --> 01:24:03,000
Speaker 1: wrong thing. They did. They objectively did the wrong thing

1584
01:24:03,080 --> 01:24:06,719
Speaker 1: in terms of telling lies. Um. And at the same time,

1585
01:24:07,520 --> 01:24:11,160
Speaker 1: I've had to come to a place where, um, I

1586
01:24:11,200 --> 01:24:15,160
Speaker 1: can't I can judge their behavior and I can judge

1587
01:24:15,160 --> 01:24:18,040
Speaker 1: somebody else's behavior as that behavior is wrong, and yet

1588
01:24:18,080 --> 01:24:21,880
Speaker 1: I am not their judge. That makes sense because because

1589
01:24:21,920 --> 01:24:24,720
Speaker 1: ironically so, it's just like wait a second, Stephen, so

1590
01:24:24,760 --> 01:24:26,720
Speaker 1: you pull the trigger in this incident, are really the

1591
01:24:26,760 --> 01:24:30,360
Speaker 1: best one to start judging other people's behavior within it?

1592
01:24:30,800 --> 01:24:32,880
Speaker 1: And the answer is no, because they can do the

1593
01:24:32,920 --> 01:24:35,680
Speaker 1: same thing to me. And if I think I'm so

1594
01:24:35,760 --> 01:24:40,799
Speaker 1: much better than them because they lied, um, I become

1595
01:24:40,840 --> 01:24:44,720
Speaker 1: more susceptible myself. I become more fragile myself UM to

1596
01:24:45,160 --> 01:24:48,160
Speaker 1: the same moral quandaries because I'm operating out of a

1597
01:24:48,160 --> 01:24:50,559
Speaker 1: place of pride and not a place of humility. If

1598
01:24:50,600 --> 01:24:53,000
Speaker 1: I don't realize that I'm a human and I get

1599
01:24:53,040 --> 01:24:57,639
Speaker 1: scared and I haven't an instinct to preserve myself too,

1600
01:24:57,960 --> 01:24:59,720
Speaker 1: I'm going to be more likely to do that. But

1601
01:24:59,840 --> 01:25:01,679
Speaker 1: now the time that I'm faced with a tough decision

1602
01:25:01,800 --> 01:25:05,639
Speaker 1: that might be easier to lie or obvious skate, um,

1603
01:25:05,720 --> 01:25:07,960
Speaker 1: I have to do. I have to try and maintain

1604
01:25:08,000 --> 01:25:12,639
Speaker 1: a humble posture, um to remember that hey, like, we're

1605
01:25:12,680 --> 01:25:15,600
Speaker 1: all people, and it doesn't mean that I agree with

1606
01:25:15,640 --> 01:25:17,240
Speaker 1: what they did, and I think they made the situation

1607
01:25:17,320 --> 01:25:20,920
Speaker 1: way worse. Um. But but I'm a I'm a human too,

1608
01:25:21,200 --> 01:25:24,080
Speaker 1: and I've I've made my mistakes and hopefully I can

1609
01:25:24,160 --> 01:25:27,879
Speaker 1: learn from their mistakes at a very visceral way to remember.

1610
01:25:28,600 --> 01:25:30,679
Speaker 1: As bad as it might feel to tell the truth

1611
01:25:30,680 --> 01:25:34,040
Speaker 1: about something right now, it's not going to get easier

1612
01:25:34,320 --> 01:25:36,639
Speaker 1: and it's not going to get better. Um, And I've

1613
01:25:36,680 --> 01:25:38,280
Speaker 1: lived that. I've been on the other side of that

1614
01:25:38,360 --> 01:25:41,120
Speaker 1: in terms of just the blowbacks from all of that,

1615
01:25:41,320 --> 01:25:44,519
Speaker 1: and that's, Um, that's really interesting that that that the

1616
01:25:44,640 --> 01:25:50,799
Speaker 1: r c O was was banging that drum and that's unfortunate. Yeah,

1617
01:25:51,160 --> 01:25:53,800
Speaker 1: but I mean you also have to acknowledge that the

1618
01:25:53,920 --> 01:25:58,120
Speaker 1: Regiment and the Special Operations Command, their response to all

1619
01:25:58,160 --> 01:26:03,559
Speaker 1: of this was to RFS, the most low ranking people involved. Yeah,

1620
01:26:03,600 --> 01:26:05,760
Speaker 1: it's true. I mean it is. And that's the that's

1621
01:26:05,760 --> 01:26:10,120
Speaker 1: the piece of it where Um again like it's i've

1622
01:26:10,360 --> 01:26:13,000
Speaker 1: i've never and I will not, you know, put myself

1623
01:26:13,120 --> 01:26:15,000
Speaker 1: out there. It's kind of my own apologists as far

1624
01:26:15,040 --> 01:26:17,960
Speaker 1: as what shared what shouldn't have happened for me, because

1625
01:26:18,040 --> 01:26:23,320
Speaker 1: some extent like like my like my career and so

1626
01:26:23,520 --> 01:26:28,040
Speaker 1: calm on balance with what happened that day is just irrelevant.

1627
01:26:28,240 --> 01:26:30,479
Speaker 1: It just is, you know what I mean, Um, and

1628
01:26:30,520 --> 01:26:34,040
Speaker 1: at the same time UM, and it was really challenging

1629
01:26:34,040 --> 01:26:36,000
Speaker 1: within the platoon. Like the platoon. You know, you had

1630
01:26:36,040 --> 01:26:39,000
Speaker 1: guys who were who were in path squad who could

1631
01:26:39,040 --> 01:26:41,760
Speaker 1: have just easily been killed that weren't UM, and they

1632
01:26:41,800 --> 01:26:44,840
Speaker 1: were Some of them were like, this is sucked up

1633
01:26:45,000 --> 01:26:46,720
Speaker 1: and you know, if I was in your shoes, I

1634
01:26:46,720 --> 01:26:48,679
Speaker 1: probably would have done the same thing. And other guys

1635
01:26:48,680 --> 01:26:51,200
Speaker 1: were really pissed and they're just like, yeah, get rid

1636
01:26:51,240 --> 01:26:53,120
Speaker 1: of them, right, And so you have that going on

1637
01:26:53,320 --> 01:26:56,960
Speaker 1: in the unit, which was not good. UM, but everyone

1638
01:26:57,040 --> 01:27:01,320
Speaker 1: was united around the fact that UM, the yell UM

1639
01:27:01,600 --> 01:27:04,200
Speaker 1: got the shaft. Everyone was in that respect. That was

1640
01:27:04,240 --> 01:27:05,719
Speaker 1: kind of the one and I think that was probably

1641
01:27:05,720 --> 01:27:09,799
Speaker 1: the single most UM. That was the single biggest beyond

1642
01:27:09,840 --> 01:27:13,879
Speaker 1: Pat getting killed. UM. As a result of this whole

1643
01:27:14,560 --> 01:27:17,880
Speaker 1: ridiculous scenario of our platoon blinks split. It was the

1644
01:27:17,920 --> 01:27:20,080
Speaker 1: individual who was in charge of us in the field

1645
01:27:20,360 --> 01:27:23,040
Speaker 1: who did not want to split us. UM was the

1646
01:27:23,040 --> 01:27:26,879
Speaker 1: guy who got his walking papers. And that was probably

1647
01:27:27,200 --> 01:27:31,200
Speaker 1: we were all unified UM and UM and felt that

1648
01:27:31,280 --> 01:27:34,120
Speaker 1: sense of the trail against the regiment for that because

1649
01:27:35,280 --> 01:27:37,880
Speaker 1: listened to the guy on the ground, right, it's just like,

1650
01:27:37,960 --> 01:27:39,559
Speaker 1: what about the guy in the father was telling him

1651
01:27:39,600 --> 01:27:41,679
Speaker 1: that he had to do that or else he's gonna

1652
01:27:41,680 --> 01:27:43,720
Speaker 1: get fired. Then what what about him? You know? And

1653
01:27:43,760 --> 01:27:46,559
Speaker 1: so so that was that was the hardest I think,

1654
01:27:46,600 --> 01:27:48,840
Speaker 1: even beyond losing path. That was the hardest pill to

1655
01:27:48,840 --> 01:27:51,839
Speaker 1: swallow for everybody. And that's that. I made that allusion

1656
01:27:51,880 --> 01:27:54,839
Speaker 1: that to some of the stuff that's come out about

1657
01:27:54,880 --> 01:27:57,280
Speaker 1: what went down in Niger where the team leader was

1658
01:27:57,320 --> 01:28:00,120
Speaker 1: on the radio saying like, no, we're not prepared for

1659
01:28:00,160 --> 01:28:02,840
Speaker 1: this operation. We need to return to base and they're like, no,

1660
01:28:03,160 --> 01:28:06,799
Speaker 1: you're going to go and do this operation. That's right. Yeah,

1661
01:28:06,880 --> 01:28:09,600
Speaker 1: And it's the same, it's the same. It's bring it

1662
01:28:09,640 --> 01:28:13,200
Speaker 1: full circle to some degree, like some grains of that

1663
01:28:13,200 --> 01:28:17,400
Speaker 1: that thinking are like they have their seats in the

1664
01:28:17,479 --> 01:28:21,519
Speaker 1: same thinking that is like like, I mean in the

1665
01:28:21,600 --> 01:28:24,639
Speaker 1: same little things like I can remember, like you're trying

1666
01:28:24,680 --> 01:28:26,960
Speaker 1: to like, okay, you want me to mow the grass, Um,

1667
01:28:26,960 --> 01:28:29,599
Speaker 1: I need a spark plug, and then you're getting berated

1668
01:28:29,640 --> 01:28:32,000
Speaker 1: for trying to get a spark plug. It's like you're

1669
01:28:32,040 --> 01:28:34,240
Speaker 1: a ranger. You need to figure out how to mow

1670
01:28:34,280 --> 01:28:37,559
Speaker 1: this grass with a lawnmower. That doesn't work. I mean,

1671
01:28:37,560 --> 01:28:40,840
Speaker 1: that's essentially the almost the command. It's like, this impossible

1672
01:28:40,840 --> 01:28:43,479
Speaker 1: situation and if you're smart enough and if you're man

1673
01:28:43,600 --> 01:28:45,559
Speaker 1: enough and if your ranger enough, still figure it out.

1674
01:28:45,600 --> 01:28:48,000
Speaker 1: I mean I remember that as a private you know,

1675
01:28:48,040 --> 01:28:50,960
Speaker 1: having a buff the floors every night and four companies

1676
01:28:51,040 --> 01:28:55,679
Speaker 1: three four four buffers that were four years old and

1677
01:28:56,040 --> 01:28:59,600
Speaker 1: um didn't work out the time and they like you

1678
01:28:59,640 --> 01:29:03,080
Speaker 1: prison then that information just like presenting, hey, sir, we

1679
01:29:03,120 --> 01:29:05,080
Speaker 1: have a broken down vehicle and you have an objective,

1680
01:29:05,400 --> 01:29:09,559
Speaker 1: please pick one because trying to do both at the

1681
01:29:09,600 --> 01:29:13,519
Speaker 1: same time is really not tenable. That's not that's not

1682
01:29:13,520 --> 01:29:15,519
Speaker 1: going to work. And it was just like, well, if

1683
01:29:15,520 --> 01:29:17,040
Speaker 1: you're a good enough leader, you can make it work.

1684
01:29:17,240 --> 01:29:20,920
Speaker 1: It's it's that same attitude that I don't think it's

1685
01:29:20,960 --> 01:29:22,559
Speaker 1: that's you're not you neque to regiment. And that's not

1686
01:29:22,600 --> 01:29:24,320
Speaker 1: to say that everyone in regiment at all time has

1687
01:29:24,320 --> 01:29:27,840
Speaker 1: thought that way, but I hear echoes of that where

1688
01:29:27,960 --> 01:29:30,759
Speaker 1: it's this like, why are we making this a test?

1689
01:29:31,040 --> 01:29:33,760
Speaker 1: This is just not a good decision, So let's just

1690
01:29:33,840 --> 01:29:37,880
Speaker 1: not make the decision, um, and then not blame the

1691
01:29:37,920 --> 01:29:40,440
Speaker 1: guy on the ground for being put in an impossible

1692
01:29:40,479 --> 01:29:44,120
Speaker 1: decision or situation and so that's yeah. I mean that

1693
01:29:44,240 --> 01:29:47,200
Speaker 1: sounds like yeah, just kind of the beat goes on

1694
01:29:47,520 --> 01:29:50,200
Speaker 1: in some respects Um. As far as all of that,

1695
01:29:51,560 --> 01:29:54,760
Speaker 1: it's definitely a common theme. And I guess the one

1696
01:29:54,840 --> 01:29:58,360
Speaker 1: last thing I'll hit up on my end, and you know,

1697
01:29:58,439 --> 01:30:01,240
Speaker 1: you can definitely fill sit on anything else that we've

1698
01:30:01,240 --> 01:30:05,040
Speaker 1: we failed to cover was the subsequent investigation. I found

1699
01:30:05,120 --> 01:30:09,599
Speaker 1: was interesting because we got back to the base, we

1700
01:30:09,640 --> 01:30:13,240
Speaker 1: did a bigger a r um. It's announced that there

1701
01:30:13,400 --> 01:30:15,519
Speaker 1: is gonna be a guy coming down from bag room,

1702
01:30:15,640 --> 01:30:18,320
Speaker 1: that we're gonna do sworn statements or something like this,

1703
01:30:18,400 --> 01:30:20,479
Speaker 1: that there's gonna be a like some sort of fifteen

1704
01:30:20,520 --> 01:30:24,160
Speaker 1: six investigation, which I don't blame the military for doing

1705
01:30:24,200 --> 01:30:27,320
Speaker 1: at all. It's a perfectly reasonable thing to figure out

1706
01:30:27,439 --> 01:30:31,000
Speaker 1: what happened and why. Um. But what was interesting to

1707
01:30:31,040 --> 01:30:35,680
Speaker 1: me about it was that they interviewed everybody except me.

1708
01:30:35,880 --> 01:30:40,520
Speaker 1: I was the very last person they interviewed. UM. They

1709
01:30:40,600 --> 01:30:43,880
Speaker 1: called me in. Finally I went down and sat down

1710
01:30:43,880 --> 01:30:45,920
Speaker 1: with this guy. He was I can't remember if he

1711
01:30:45,960 --> 01:30:49,519
Speaker 1: was a captain or a major. And he tells me

1712
01:30:49,600 --> 01:30:53,280
Speaker 1: that the fifteen six is informal, which means that there's

1713
01:30:53,280 --> 01:30:56,439
Speaker 1: no sworn statements. You don't sign anything. It's an inform

1714
01:30:57,280 --> 01:31:00,639
Speaker 1: it's an informal investigation. And then in the next thing

1715
01:31:00,680 --> 01:31:04,720
Speaker 1: he says, he then briefs me. Essentially, he tells me

1716
01:31:05,439 --> 01:31:10,240
Speaker 1: his findings, like this is what happened. This happened before

1717
01:31:10,360 --> 01:31:14,320
Speaker 1: before I've said a word, this happened, and then this happened,

1718
01:31:14,600 --> 01:31:16,439
Speaker 1: and then this happened, and we think that, you know,

1719
01:31:16,479 --> 01:31:20,559
Speaker 1: there were some communication issues here with communications equipment, and

1720
01:31:20,600 --> 01:31:23,479
Speaker 1: also that some tactical decisions were made that probably shouldn't

1721
01:31:23,479 --> 01:31:26,160
Speaker 1: have been. And so he like told me the results

1722
01:31:26,160 --> 01:31:29,640
Speaker 1: of the investigation before I said anything. It was like

1723
01:31:29,800 --> 01:31:32,479
Speaker 1: super weird, and I knew what was going on, even

1724
01:31:32,520 --> 01:31:35,560
Speaker 1: as I was twenty one years old. I knew what

1725
01:31:35,680 --> 01:31:38,080
Speaker 1: was going on. But again, it's like, you know, one

1726
01:31:38,120 --> 01:31:41,000
Speaker 1: of those things where you're like, you're like Jessica Lynch

1727
01:31:41,040 --> 01:31:43,040
Speaker 1: and the Army's pinning a silver star on you, and

1728
01:31:43,080 --> 01:31:45,760
Speaker 1: you're like, yes, sir, may I have another? You know

1729
01:31:46,000 --> 01:31:48,639
Speaker 1: you don't have you don't necessarily have the wherewithal to say,

1730
01:31:48,840 --> 01:31:52,800
Speaker 1: you know, that's bullshit right right right exactly, especially after

1731
01:31:52,840 --> 01:31:54,800
Speaker 1: you I mean, there's a whole this whole weight of

1732
01:31:55,680 --> 01:32:00,960
Speaker 1: command structure machine and I mean, you're the muscle memory

1733
01:32:01,080 --> 01:32:04,880
Speaker 1: is not to fight that machine, right especially. Yeah, yeah,

1734
01:32:04,960 --> 01:32:07,840
Speaker 1: you're you're E four No nothing, you know, you do

1735
01:32:07,920 --> 01:32:12,080
Speaker 1: what you're told. Yeah, yeah, that's interesting, Yeah, because it

1736
01:32:12,120 --> 01:32:14,640
Speaker 1: was I mean, you know, for us, it was you know,

1737
01:32:14,680 --> 01:32:16,519
Speaker 1: we did the critical incident debrief when we got back,

1738
01:32:17,040 --> 01:32:19,200
Speaker 1: and then it was actually a this I mean, this

1739
01:32:19,800 --> 01:32:22,120
Speaker 1: goes back to just so many decisions that it was

1740
01:32:22,160 --> 01:32:24,479
Speaker 1: just like, why did you guys do that? Um? It

1741
01:32:24,520 --> 01:32:27,880
Speaker 1: was actually the HHC company commander who did the first investigation,

1742
01:32:28,160 --> 01:32:32,080
Speaker 1: the second bat HC company commander, which means that effectively,

1743
01:32:32,439 --> 01:32:35,759
Speaker 1: at the very least, he's partially investigating one of his peers,

1744
01:32:36,040 --> 01:32:38,760
Speaker 1: the ACO company commander, who was in the FOB, and

1745
01:32:38,760 --> 01:32:42,040
Speaker 1: then also potentially implicating if they find something that's not

1746
01:32:42,240 --> 01:32:46,480
Speaker 1: positive his boss, who is the BC, so like obviously

1747
01:32:46,840 --> 01:32:50,040
Speaker 1: keep it in house, keep it within second bat UM.

1748
01:32:50,080 --> 01:32:54,000
Speaker 1: And then they did another fifteen six that I think

1749
01:32:54,080 --> 01:32:58,160
Speaker 1: was done by somebody from Regiment UM. And then yeah,

1750
01:32:58,200 --> 01:33:02,080
Speaker 1: and then once the this was coming out that summer

1751
01:33:02,400 --> 01:33:05,840
Speaker 1: for uh, then it was another investigation that so Calm

1752
01:33:05,920 --> 01:33:09,400
Speaker 1: did UM and then the family understandably wasn't happy with

1753
01:33:09,439 --> 01:33:11,800
Speaker 1: that UM. And then finally it was c I d

1754
01:33:12,360 --> 01:33:15,519
Speaker 1: UM that did the final investigation actually went back the

1755
01:33:15,840 --> 01:33:19,240
Speaker 1: guys actually went back to the ambush to kill zone

1756
01:33:19,280 --> 01:33:24,360
Speaker 1: and Afghanistan tried to recreate the scenario. UM. And then ultimately,

1757
01:33:24,439 --> 01:33:27,519
Speaker 1: you know, their investigation was that the most of the

1758
01:33:27,560 --> 01:33:34,720
Speaker 1: CID investigation and uh, that steath centered around essentially the

1759
01:33:34,840 --> 01:33:36,719
Speaker 1: errors in the chain of command in terms of how

1760
01:33:37,320 --> 01:33:40,519
Speaker 1: um they didn't follow protocol in terms of even reporting

1761
01:33:40,520 --> 01:33:43,840
Speaker 1: and investigating the incident. I mean, I think the shooters,

1762
01:33:44,160 --> 01:33:46,479
Speaker 1: myself and the other guys, I think we had all

1763
01:33:46,520 --> 01:33:49,800
Speaker 1: of one paragraph and the report, which was effectively, Yeah,

1764
01:33:49,840 --> 01:33:52,439
Speaker 1: they they thought they were under threat. They followed the

1765
01:33:52,520 --> 01:33:55,040
Speaker 1: r O e M. They mistake, I mean, aid I

1766
01:33:55,120 --> 01:33:57,960
Speaker 1: decide the target and you know they're they're not culpable.

1767
01:33:58,240 --> 01:34:00,320
Speaker 1: That was the extent of it. But it took that

1768
01:34:00,360 --> 01:34:02,360
Speaker 1: wasn't until the seven I mean, it was basically three

1769
01:34:02,439 --> 01:34:06,040
Speaker 1: years of that kind of grinding on, precisely because at

1770
01:34:06,040 --> 01:34:08,599
Speaker 1: the point of UM, at the point of the incident,

1771
01:34:09,040 --> 01:34:12,439
Speaker 1: it wasn't investigated properly and because the chain of command

1772
01:34:12,479 --> 01:34:17,080
Speaker 1: didn't tell the truth and so UM. But but it is, Yeah,

1773
01:34:17,120 --> 01:34:21,759
Speaker 1: there's definitely there's definitely a strong drive in any culture

1774
01:34:21,840 --> 01:34:25,400
Speaker 1: like that too. Nobody wants that to happen, you know, nobody.

1775
01:34:25,439 --> 01:34:27,439
Speaker 1: I don't want that to be the regiment's story. You

1776
01:34:27,479 --> 01:34:31,040
Speaker 1: don't want that. Um, it's just that, I mean, that's

1777
01:34:31,160 --> 01:34:34,120
Speaker 1: kind of the the personification of the hard right over

1778
01:34:34,120 --> 01:34:37,479
Speaker 1: the easy wrong is is just is telling the truth.

1779
01:34:37,800 --> 01:34:40,519
Speaker 1: And that's really difficult. And I don't say that as

1780
01:34:40,520 --> 01:34:44,639
Speaker 1: somebody whom who sits the top some self righteous mountain

1781
01:34:44,640 --> 01:34:48,559
Speaker 1: and those truth telling, but it's just man, when you

1782
01:34:48,600 --> 01:34:50,840
Speaker 1: don't do it, it just makes it worse. And then

1783
01:34:50,840 --> 01:34:53,799
Speaker 1: even for you, I would imagine, like then that's almost

1784
01:34:53,880 --> 01:34:56,880
Speaker 1: like in a weird way, even if they're trying to

1785
01:34:57,840 --> 01:35:00,679
Speaker 1: I would imagine correct me if I'm wrong. You didn't

1786
01:35:00,760 --> 01:35:04,439
Speaker 1: probably feel really cared for in that moment. Uh, you

1787
01:35:04,560 --> 01:35:07,880
Speaker 1: felt like, well, whatever I'm experiencing, I don't really get

1788
01:35:07,920 --> 01:35:10,599
Speaker 1: to share a talk about because this isn't about taking

1789
01:35:10,640 --> 01:35:13,559
Speaker 1: care of jack Um. This is about taking care of

1790
01:35:13,600 --> 01:35:17,800
Speaker 1: the unit. And that's not a really that's not a

1791
01:35:17,800 --> 01:35:20,800
Speaker 1: great place. Um. I wouldn't think that's not a great

1792
01:35:20,800 --> 01:35:23,080
Speaker 1: place to be out. I mean I got this sense

1793
01:35:23,160 --> 01:35:26,040
Speaker 1: like the incident I was in was never reported in

1794
01:35:26,080 --> 01:35:29,719
Speaker 1: the press at all. It was all kept behind closed doors,

1795
01:35:30,320 --> 01:35:32,679
Speaker 1: and I just kept my mouth shut because I wanted

1796
01:35:32,720 --> 01:35:35,000
Speaker 1: to keep being a ranger and go and do ranger trains,

1797
01:35:35,160 --> 01:35:40,760
Speaker 1: you know. Um, So it was, um yeah, I don't

1798
01:35:40,760 --> 01:35:43,559
Speaker 1: think the regiment wanted another Black Eyes, is what it

1799
01:35:43,560 --> 01:35:46,719
Speaker 1: comes down to. And the aftermath of the Pat Tillman incident,

1800
01:35:46,800 --> 01:35:49,880
Speaker 1: because from the way I know enough about how the

1801
01:35:49,920 --> 01:35:52,400
Speaker 1: military thinks and the way the brass would look at it,

1802
01:35:52,520 --> 01:35:54,599
Speaker 1: they would look down at the regiment be like, okay,

1803
01:35:54,680 --> 01:35:58,120
Speaker 1: you guys have there's a pattern here now, like what's

1804
01:35:58,160 --> 01:36:03,200
Speaker 1: going on in this unit? Um? Yeah, it was very

1805
01:36:03,320 --> 01:36:06,000
Speaker 1: very strange, um some some of the ways that that

1806
01:36:06,080 --> 01:36:09,080
Speaker 1: was handled. And I just kinda and and it's on

1807
01:36:09,160 --> 01:36:11,360
Speaker 1: me too. I I went with the flow because I

1808
01:36:11,439 --> 01:36:14,679
Speaker 1: just I also wanted it to just go away and

1809
01:36:14,720 --> 01:36:17,320
Speaker 1: just move on and uh and go on and do

1810
01:36:17,360 --> 01:36:20,599
Speaker 1: the ranger thing. Of course, yeah, of course. Yeah. It's

1811
01:36:20,600 --> 01:36:22,559
Speaker 1: not something you want to dwell on and and it's

1812
01:36:22,760 --> 01:36:25,120
Speaker 1: uh yeah, that's not how the story is supposed to go.

1813
01:36:25,479 --> 01:36:28,040
Speaker 1: Um And yet in some cases that's how the story goes.

1814
01:36:28,120 --> 01:36:31,559
Speaker 1: And there has to be uh for whatever story we're

1815
01:36:31,600 --> 01:36:33,680
Speaker 1: a part of, and however our stories wind up, there

1816
01:36:33,680 --> 01:36:36,800
Speaker 1: has to be uh space to kind of deal with that,

1817
01:36:36,880 --> 01:36:38,760
Speaker 1: you know, good, beat or indifferent, because it's usually a

1818
01:36:38,800 --> 01:36:41,640
Speaker 1: mix of all of those things. Is there any like

1819
01:36:41,720 --> 01:36:43,960
Speaker 1: this is another like rumor I had heard over the years.

1820
01:36:44,040 --> 01:36:46,519
Speaker 1: Is there any truth to these stories about how like

1821
01:36:46,600 --> 01:36:49,240
Speaker 1: Pat Tilman's diary was burned and stuff like that in

1822
01:36:49,280 --> 01:36:52,920
Speaker 1: the in the aftermath of the incident. I don't know.

1823
01:36:53,040 --> 01:36:55,920
Speaker 1: I mean, it's a good question, it's a fair question. UM.

1824
01:36:56,320 --> 01:37:01,800
Speaker 1: I don't really know the all of that was handled

1825
01:37:02,000 --> 01:37:05,880
Speaker 1: at you know, platoon and above level. UM. I know

1826
01:37:06,000 --> 01:37:09,920
Speaker 1: that there was some stuff, um, some of his just

1827
01:37:09,920 --> 01:37:13,160
Speaker 1: just the fact just the way that he died. UM.

1828
01:37:13,200 --> 01:37:16,520
Speaker 1: You know, his uniform and kit was essentially a biohazard,

1829
01:37:16,760 --> 01:37:21,360
Speaker 1: right UM and um and so UM. I don't know

1830
01:37:21,920 --> 01:37:24,720
Speaker 1: who took possession of that. I don't know, UM you

1831
01:37:24,760 --> 01:37:27,639
Speaker 1: know what they did with that, UM. And I certainly

1832
01:37:27,640 --> 01:37:31,280
Speaker 1: don't know if the decision to dispose of it was

1833
01:37:31,320 --> 01:37:35,880
Speaker 1: based on anything more than just we're disposing of you know, UM,

1834
01:37:35,920 --> 01:37:38,479
Speaker 1: we're disposing of something that needs to be disposed of

1835
01:37:38,479 --> 01:37:41,559
Speaker 1: in some way. UM. So i'd be I would be

1836
01:37:41,600 --> 01:37:46,080
Speaker 1: speculating um as to that. UM. I do know that,

1837
01:37:46,760 --> 01:37:49,920
Speaker 1: at least for us at the platoon level, there was

1838
01:37:49,960 --> 01:37:52,120
Speaker 1: no question. Within twenty four hours, there was no question

1839
01:37:52,120 --> 01:37:55,200
Speaker 1: that it was from the fire like. That wasn't a question. Um.

1840
01:37:55,240 --> 01:37:57,519
Speaker 1: When we got back to the FOB and you know

1841
01:37:57,560 --> 01:37:59,320
Speaker 1: what we were told. What I was tolding my squad

1842
01:37:59,439 --> 01:38:01,599
Speaker 1: leader was, hey, there's going to be a fifteen six.

1843
01:38:02,080 --> 01:38:05,400
Speaker 1: Captain Scott is doing it. Um tell the truth, like,

1844
01:38:05,439 --> 01:38:07,879
Speaker 1: no one's going to expect you to remember every detail,

1845
01:38:07,960 --> 01:38:11,120
Speaker 1: but just you know, tell tell it as best as

1846
01:38:11,120 --> 01:38:14,599
Speaker 1: you can. And so, um, that's what we were told.

1847
01:38:14,960 --> 01:38:17,120
Speaker 1: That in terms of what happened to you know, those

1848
01:38:17,160 --> 01:38:22,120
Speaker 1: effects and what the um like, what the underlying motivation

1849
01:38:22,240 --> 01:38:24,360
Speaker 1: for how those things were disposed of? I don't know.

1850
01:38:25,160 --> 01:38:27,680
Speaker 1: I wish I did the uniform That doesn't surprise me

1851
01:38:27,720 --> 01:38:31,600
Speaker 1: at all. I mean I I threw bloody uniforms in

1852
01:38:31,640 --> 01:38:33,760
Speaker 1: the in the trash and the dumpster in a rack,

1853
01:38:33,960 --> 01:38:36,760
Speaker 1: so from arkandis after they were hurt. So I mean, yeah,

1854
01:38:36,760 --> 01:38:38,760
Speaker 1: that that is like an s op. So that that

1855
01:38:38,800 --> 01:38:42,160
Speaker 1: part doesn't surprise me, right, And then it's just so

1856
01:38:42,160 --> 01:38:44,080
Speaker 1: so it's just one of those things that then when

1857
01:38:44,080 --> 01:38:47,400
Speaker 1: it's when that is when any of those things the

1858
01:38:47,439 --> 01:38:50,519
Speaker 1: presence of an act or the absence of an act

1859
01:38:50,720 --> 01:38:53,599
Speaker 1: or a piece of quote unquote evidence is then looked

1860
01:38:53,600 --> 01:38:59,280
Speaker 1: back through the lens of lies. Then you have then

1861
01:38:59,360 --> 01:39:01,519
Speaker 1: kind of like ye that the horses left the barn

1862
01:39:01,560 --> 01:39:05,800
Speaker 1: in terms of conjecture and what people can UM, you

1863
01:39:05,920 --> 01:39:08,960
Speaker 1: know what what happens, um, And and certainly there was

1864
01:39:09,560 --> 01:39:14,640
Speaker 1: lots of motivations um to UM to not want the

1865
01:39:14,760 --> 01:39:18,200
Speaker 1: army's poster child to be killed, be be killed by

1866
01:39:18,200 --> 01:39:20,840
Speaker 1: friendly fire, see be killed by friendly fire at the

1867
01:39:20,960 --> 01:39:24,920
Speaker 1: end of UM kind of a bizarre command decision. UM.

1868
01:39:25,000 --> 01:39:27,559
Speaker 1: And all of that happening in two thousand four, Iraq

1869
01:39:27,680 --> 01:39:31,240
Speaker 1: is still grinding on jeffic glinch has happens of the

1870
01:39:31,320 --> 01:39:34,840
Speaker 1: grave all of these things. UM, that's not ideal pr

1871
01:39:35,040 --> 01:39:39,000
Speaker 1: so so yeah, of course I don't know um as

1872
01:39:39,000 --> 01:39:42,680
Speaker 1: far as some of those details. UM, but uh, but

1873
01:39:42,800 --> 01:39:45,759
Speaker 1: it it didn't didn't help the fact that those those items,

1874
01:39:45,760 --> 01:39:49,360
Speaker 1: if they were destroyed. UM. It certainly didn't help UM

1875
01:39:49,479 --> 01:39:52,360
Speaker 1: the the narrative in terms of trying to get to

1876
01:39:52,400 --> 01:39:55,280
Speaker 1: the bottom of what happened. And for some of our

1877
01:39:55,320 --> 01:39:58,120
Speaker 1: younger listeners, because this war has gone on for so long,

1878
01:39:58,120 --> 01:40:00,080
Speaker 1: they might not realize. But I just want to all

1879
01:40:00,280 --> 01:40:02,080
Speaker 1: up on what you said like Pat Tillman was a

1880
01:40:02,120 --> 01:40:05,439
Speaker 1: really big deal for the army. Um when when when

1881
01:40:05,439 --> 01:40:08,720
Speaker 1: that happened, when he joined up and he was like

1882
01:40:08,760 --> 01:40:12,240
Speaker 1: a cycle or two ahead of me going through basic, Yeah,

1883
01:40:12,320 --> 01:40:14,880
Speaker 1: going through Basic Airborne and ripped. He was just a

1884
01:40:14,920 --> 01:40:17,559
Speaker 1: couple of cycles ahead of me. So like all the

1885
01:40:17,560 --> 01:40:20,040
Speaker 1: instructors like, oh, yeah, we had that Pat Tilman in

1886
01:40:20,040 --> 01:40:23,400
Speaker 1: our course and this and that, and I mean, uh,

1887
01:40:23,680 --> 01:40:25,640
Speaker 1: I don't I don't say this to like um to

1888
01:40:25,800 --> 01:40:28,240
Speaker 1: like short Sell um Pat Tilman. I just want to

1889
01:40:28,280 --> 01:40:30,519
Speaker 1: point out, like it was a really big deal that

1890
01:40:30,600 --> 01:40:32,679
Speaker 1: this guy was, like in the media, he was a hero.

1891
01:40:33,160 --> 01:40:36,360
Speaker 1: This guy gave up a big NFL contract to join

1892
01:40:36,400 --> 01:40:39,759
Speaker 1: the military during wartime and volunteer to become a ranger.

1893
01:40:40,000 --> 01:40:41,639
Speaker 1: Like that was a really big deal at the time.

1894
01:40:42,479 --> 01:40:44,880
Speaker 1: It was a big deal. Yeah, And it was um

1895
01:40:44,960 --> 01:40:49,560
Speaker 1: so that and that was largely I mean he never um,

1896
01:40:49,600 --> 01:40:51,519
Speaker 1: I mean, he never gave once he joined. He never

1897
01:40:51,520 --> 01:40:53,840
Speaker 1: gave one interview to the press, and so a lot

1898
01:40:53,840 --> 01:40:57,960
Speaker 1: of that was um, it was not. He didn't invite that,

1899
01:40:58,320 --> 01:41:00,320
Speaker 1: you know what I mean, Like he was not And

1900
01:41:00,479 --> 01:41:02,000
Speaker 1: and the way he carried himself in the way that

1901
01:41:02,080 --> 01:41:05,400
Speaker 1: Kevin carred himself as well. They were. They were good

1902
01:41:05,439 --> 01:41:08,840
Speaker 1: guys who worked with They didn't expect special treatment. As

1903
01:41:08,840 --> 01:41:10,920
Speaker 1: far as I could tell, they didn't receive it. Um.

1904
01:41:10,960 --> 01:41:14,599
Speaker 1: They did their job as well. UM. They were um

1905
01:41:14,840 --> 01:41:19,479
Speaker 1: kind and respectful of everyone, whether it was the brand

1906
01:41:19,479 --> 01:41:23,080
Speaker 1: new eighteen year old private or whomever. UM. So they

1907
01:41:23,120 --> 01:41:25,680
Speaker 1: just kept their head down, they did their job, and

1908
01:41:25,680 --> 01:41:27,640
Speaker 1: and they were they were great. They were great to

1909
01:41:27,640 --> 01:41:30,640
Speaker 1: work with in that regard. But but yeah, it was

1910
01:41:30,960 --> 01:41:33,400
Speaker 1: so that was weird because I didn't have like I mean,

1911
01:41:33,400 --> 01:41:36,479
Speaker 1: I didn't have cable in college. Um, I was I

1912
01:41:36,560 --> 01:41:39,760
Speaker 1: wasn't really dialed into a lot of the broader kind

1913
01:41:39,800 --> 01:41:42,559
Speaker 1: of sports media. So I kind of heard, like I

1914
01:41:42,680 --> 01:41:47,200
Speaker 1: knew about this guy, but I didn't for me mostly

1915
01:41:47,240 --> 01:41:49,280
Speaker 1: like he was, oh, yeah, he's Pat, you know, and

1916
01:41:49,360 --> 01:41:53,000
Speaker 1: he's he's got a really he's big. But other than that,

1917
01:41:53,240 --> 01:41:56,439
Speaker 1: Pat you know, and UM, and Kevin's Kevin, and they're

1918
01:41:56,439 --> 01:41:59,320
Speaker 1: and they're good guys and and they're just the guys

1919
01:41:59,320 --> 01:42:02,479
Speaker 1: that you worked with, UM. And so so then even

1920
01:42:02,520 --> 01:42:07,720
Speaker 1: that was it was weird because like, you don't expect, um,

1921
01:42:07,880 --> 01:42:10,760
Speaker 1: you automatically don't expect yourself to be even related to

1922
01:42:10,840 --> 01:42:14,080
Speaker 1: something that the media at large cares about So then

1923
01:42:14,120 --> 01:42:15,680
Speaker 1: it's hard for you to wrap your mind around the

1924
01:42:15,680 --> 01:42:18,240
Speaker 1: fact that the media cares about it, if that makes sense,

1925
01:42:18,240 --> 01:42:20,400
Speaker 1: because you're part of it in some way and that

1926
01:42:20,479 --> 01:42:22,120
Speaker 1: just doesn't seem real. You know, when we have a

1927
01:42:22,160 --> 01:42:23,599
Speaker 1: from employment. You know, one of the guys in our

1928
01:42:23,600 --> 01:42:25,640
Speaker 1: platoon who was he was in ranger school at the

1929
01:42:25,680 --> 01:42:28,160
Speaker 1: time and he was in between cycles or something. You know,

1930
01:42:28,200 --> 01:42:31,280
Speaker 1: we came back and he had bought copies of the

1931
01:42:31,280 --> 01:42:34,679
Speaker 1: Sports Illustrated issue that had Pad on the cover. Um,

1932
01:42:34,720 --> 01:42:37,479
Speaker 1: and that was the first time it hit me. I

1933
01:42:37,479 --> 01:42:39,280
Speaker 1: remember he had a stack of those, and you know

1934
01:42:39,400 --> 01:42:42,960
Speaker 1: he was you know, as a not as a celebration obviously,

1935
01:42:43,040 --> 01:42:44,720
Speaker 1: it was just more like, hey, I got these as

1936
01:42:44,720 --> 01:42:48,320
Speaker 1: like mementos for everybody because the ship that happened. But

1937
01:42:48,400 --> 01:42:50,000
Speaker 1: that was the first time that hit me or it's

1938
01:42:50,040 --> 01:42:53,720
Speaker 1: just like ship, you know, like like it was. It

1939
01:42:53,760 --> 01:42:56,000
Speaker 1: went from being like this cognitive thing that oh yeah,

1940
01:42:56,040 --> 01:43:00,320
Speaker 1: that was in the NFL to like people are across

1941
01:43:00,320 --> 01:43:03,519
Speaker 1: the country or dialed into this and that's not good

1942
01:43:04,320 --> 01:43:07,240
Speaker 1: and um, and then it obviously it it continued to

1943
01:43:07,280 --> 01:43:11,880
Speaker 1: kind of unfold from there. Oh man, yeah, friendly fires,

1944
01:43:11,920 --> 01:43:15,840
Speaker 1: the gift that keeps on giving. It's yeah, yeah, but

1945
01:43:15,920 --> 01:43:18,120
Speaker 1: there is I think, UM. I mean, I think to

1946
01:43:18,120 --> 01:43:20,280
Speaker 1: your point, I think the whole point of this is

1947
01:43:20,600 --> 01:43:25,639
Speaker 1: um is, yeah, there's um. Their life can and does

1948
01:43:25,760 --> 01:43:28,280
Speaker 1: go on and it doesn't mean that in life going

1949
01:43:28,320 --> 01:43:31,120
Speaker 1: on and I felt that too. Or it's just like, well,

1950
01:43:31,160 --> 01:43:33,920
Speaker 1: if I am enjoying my life, I'm somehow just honoring Pat.

1951
01:43:34,520 --> 01:43:38,920
Speaker 1: And it's like that is so stupid. It's not. It's

1952
01:43:38,920 --> 01:43:42,559
Speaker 1: not like, yeah, so it's like you're telling me, if

1953
01:43:42,560 --> 01:43:44,800
Speaker 1: Pat was standing here right now, he would want you

1954
01:43:45,520 --> 01:43:47,920
Speaker 1: to suffer, and he would want you to drink yourself

1955
01:43:47,960 --> 01:43:49,400
Speaker 1: to sleep every night, and he would want you to

1956
01:43:49,439 --> 01:43:51,439
Speaker 1: get divorced, and he would want you to do those things.

1957
01:43:51,760 --> 01:43:55,120
Speaker 1: I don't. I don't think that's honoring anybody's memory. Um.

1958
01:43:55,200 --> 01:43:57,840
Speaker 1: But in in when that guilt and shame is kind

1959
01:43:57,840 --> 01:43:59,880
Speaker 1: of driving narrative at at and b how you feel.

1960
01:44:00,080 --> 01:44:02,760
Speaker 1: So I think that's man, it's for me anyway. That's

1961
01:44:02,760 --> 01:44:04,599
Speaker 1: a message to a lot of people, civilian or otherwise.

1962
01:44:04,600 --> 01:44:07,360
Speaker 1: It's the fact that you know, you being continuing to

1963
01:44:07,400 --> 01:44:12,000
Speaker 1: be broken and embracing that brokenness. UM, embrace it, honestly,

1964
01:44:12,120 --> 01:44:14,639
Speaker 1: the dark parts of the story. But do that because

1965
01:44:14,680 --> 01:44:17,760
Speaker 1: you can there's healing that can come from that, and

1966
01:44:17,760 --> 01:44:20,679
Speaker 1: there's there's life that can come from that. And maybe

1967
01:44:20,720 --> 01:44:22,960
Speaker 1: you'll still have the scars. You'll always have the scars,

1968
01:44:23,360 --> 01:44:26,519
Speaker 1: but those scars can can can start to close over time.

1969
01:44:26,720 --> 01:44:29,640
Speaker 1: And so that's certainly what I've experienced that where you know,

1970
01:44:29,800 --> 01:44:31,599
Speaker 1: if I could change what happened on Aple twenty second,

1971
01:44:31,600 --> 01:44:33,720
Speaker 1: two thousand and four, I change at the heartbeat, um,

1972
01:44:34,000 --> 01:44:37,160
Speaker 1: and um, I regret would occurred at the same time. Um.

1973
01:44:37,560 --> 01:44:40,639
Speaker 1: You know, life goes on and good things can happen

1974
01:44:40,760 --> 01:44:43,639
Speaker 1: on the other side of that. Yeah. Absolutely, I mean

1975
01:44:43,720 --> 01:44:46,479
Speaker 1: you have to forgive yourself at some point. And I

1976
01:44:46,920 --> 01:44:50,599
Speaker 1: think the same thing about my platoon sergeant, Sergeant van Alice.

1977
01:44:51,240 --> 01:44:54,639
Speaker 1: And you know, like when when I hear people talking

1978
01:44:54,680 --> 01:44:56,760
Speaker 1: about how a Memorial Day we're all supposed to be

1979
01:44:56,800 --> 01:44:59,519
Speaker 1: sad and everything, I was like, you know, if Sergeant

1980
01:44:59,600 --> 01:45:02,400
Speaker 1: Van alle saw me at an Applebee's crying into a

1981
01:45:02,400 --> 01:45:05,280
Speaker 1: beer on Memorial Day, he'd let me in the face.

1982
01:45:05,320 --> 01:45:08,200
Speaker 1: You know, what are you doing? Guy? Like like like,

1983
01:45:08,240 --> 01:45:10,280
Speaker 1: that's right. He was. He was a family man. Do

1984
01:45:10,280 --> 01:45:12,479
Speaker 1: you think he wouldn't give anything for another day with

1985
01:45:12,520 --> 01:45:14,880
Speaker 1: his family and and and I'm going to go and

1986
01:45:14,880 --> 01:45:17,200
Speaker 1: feel sorry for myself in a bar instead of going

1987
01:45:17,200 --> 01:45:19,760
Speaker 1: and like seeing my parents and having a barbecue. Like

1988
01:45:19,840 --> 01:45:22,439
Speaker 1: come on, man, that's right, that's right now, that's and

1989
01:45:22,479 --> 01:45:24,559
Speaker 1: that's so good because I think there is a like

1990
01:45:24,840 --> 01:45:28,200
Speaker 1: we missed the fact that in lament, yeah we lament,

1991
01:45:28,720 --> 01:45:32,400
Speaker 1: not so that we stay there the lament, and then

1992
01:45:32,439 --> 01:45:35,960
Speaker 1: in lamenting we realize, Wow, the sun is up, like

1993
01:45:36,000 --> 01:45:39,639
Speaker 1: it's eighty five degrees. And perhaps one of the best

1994
01:45:39,640 --> 01:45:42,880
Speaker 1: ways after lamenting to honor those that are gone, that

1995
01:45:42,920 --> 01:45:45,280
Speaker 1: aren't with us is to actually live with life that

1996
01:45:45,360 --> 01:45:48,719
Speaker 1: they can't live. Um. And I think that's that's really

1997
01:45:48,800 --> 01:45:52,000
Speaker 1: can be really freeing the once once you start kind

1998
01:45:52,000 --> 01:45:56,360
Speaker 1: of living into that. Man, that's awesome. UM, Steven, thanks

1999
01:45:56,400 --> 01:45:59,320
Speaker 1: so much for telling this story. UM. You know I

2000
01:45:59,360 --> 01:46:02,679
Speaker 1: know better than uh the vast majority of people out

2001
01:46:02,680 --> 01:46:05,240
Speaker 1: there that it isn't an easy story to tell. UM.

2002
01:46:05,640 --> 01:46:08,200
Speaker 1: And you know, I I admire you for telling it

2003
01:46:08,479 --> 01:46:11,160
Speaker 1: because of that, UM, and because I think other people

2004
01:46:11,200 --> 01:46:14,400
Speaker 1: can learn a lot from it. Um. Is there anything

2005
01:46:14,439 --> 01:46:17,000
Speaker 1: else that we failed to cover, um that you want

2006
01:46:17,000 --> 01:46:19,880
Speaker 1: to get into? Yeah, I think or just real quick

2007
01:46:19,920 --> 01:46:22,759
Speaker 1: and thirty seconds, if folks, if you guys are listeners

2008
01:46:22,800 --> 01:46:25,640
Speaker 1: are interested in learning specifically what we're advocating for and

2009
01:46:25,640 --> 01:46:27,960
Speaker 1: what we're doing on the policy side. Um, you can

2010
01:46:28,000 --> 01:46:32,080
Speaker 1: go to Elliott Fund dot org to else two t

2011
01:46:32,280 --> 01:46:36,160
Speaker 1: s UM. There's a petition there that outlines seventeen specific

2012
01:46:36,240 --> 01:46:41,080
Speaker 1: policy initiatives that um that we're calling on a sect

2013
01:46:41,080 --> 01:46:45,000
Speaker 1: deaf and in Congress to consider an implement And so

2014
01:46:45,160 --> 01:46:46,800
Speaker 1: I encourage you to, whether you read the book or not,

2015
01:46:46,960 --> 01:46:50,000
Speaker 1: certainly check out War Stories on Amazon or wherever you

2016
01:46:50,080 --> 01:46:53,280
Speaker 1: buy nonfiction. But frankly, UM, whether you read the book

2017
01:46:53,320 --> 01:46:56,120
Speaker 1: or not, much rather if you have a choice between

2018
01:46:56,120 --> 01:46:57,760
Speaker 1: reading it or going to Elliott's son, not that it's

2019
01:46:57,760 --> 01:46:59,880
Speaker 1: a choice, but um, please got Elliott Fund out or

2020
01:47:00,080 --> 01:47:03,439
Speaker 1: check out the petition and find that if uh if

2021
01:47:03,640 --> 01:47:06,000
Speaker 1: if you see said, because that's the point, that's the

2022
01:47:06,040 --> 01:47:08,320
Speaker 1: point of all this is, is to tell a story

2023
01:47:08,400 --> 01:47:11,360
Speaker 1: so that we can hopefully move the needle and uh

2024
01:47:11,400 --> 01:47:16,160
Speaker 1: and and improve our military. Stephen, thank you so much

2025
01:47:16,560 --> 01:47:18,679
Speaker 1: for coming on and spending some time with us today.

2026
01:47:19,000 --> 01:47:22,280
Speaker 1: And UM, you know, if you're ever passing through New York,

2027
01:47:22,400 --> 01:47:24,880
Speaker 1: please drop me a line, UM and we go out

2028
01:47:24,920 --> 01:47:27,360
Speaker 1: and uh and have a coffee or a beer as

2029
01:47:27,800 --> 01:47:31,000
Speaker 1: you prefer. I won't. I won't cry into my beer though,

2030
01:47:31,040 --> 01:47:35,040
Speaker 1: I'm telling you that now. That's right, fair, fair enough. Thanks.

2031
01:47:35,560 --> 01:47:39,000
Speaker 1: That was Steven Elliott. The book is War Story. The

2032
01:47:39,240 --> 01:47:43,240
Speaker 1: website is Elliott Fund. I want to us old on Okay,

2033
01:47:43,320 --> 01:47:46,080
Speaker 1: you have it right here. It is Elliott Fund dot org.

2034
01:47:46,160 --> 01:47:47,479
Speaker 1: I was gonna get story, but I didn't want to

2035
01:47:47,479 --> 01:47:52,800
Speaker 1: guess wrong. Um, really really great stuff between the two

2036
01:47:52,840 --> 01:47:57,240
Speaker 1: of you. This was for me. This was the first

2037
01:47:57,240 --> 01:48:00,559
Speaker 1: podcast I was a part of where you were more

2038
01:48:00,600 --> 01:48:04,599
Speaker 1: than just asking questions to to hear the story. You

2039
01:48:05,000 --> 01:48:08,640
Speaker 1: obviously have quite the connection and hearing both sides of

2040
01:48:08,640 --> 01:48:13,439
Speaker 1: it was certainly awesome is not the right word, because

2041
01:48:13,439 --> 01:48:18,400
Speaker 1: it's it's terrible stories on both ends. But enlightening is

2042
01:48:18,400 --> 01:48:19,679
Speaker 1: not the very word. I don't know the right word,

2043
01:48:19,720 --> 01:48:23,439
Speaker 1: but it was. It's interesting, to say the least, certainly interesting.

2044
01:48:24,040 --> 01:48:27,800
Speaker 1: It's a that that whole conversation is, like we we

2045
01:48:27,800 --> 01:48:30,840
Speaker 1: were both saying, is one of those this is the

2046
01:48:30,880 --> 01:48:33,679
Speaker 1: story you don't hear, like you're just not gonna hear

2047
01:48:33,840 --> 01:48:36,719
Speaker 1: because people don't want to talk about it. And um

2048
01:48:37,040 --> 01:48:39,960
Speaker 1: that I was able to talk to Stephen about this,

2049
01:48:40,000 --> 01:48:43,439
Speaker 1: who is directly involved in something so so intimate and

2050
01:48:43,840 --> 01:48:46,040
Speaker 1: as we said, it's it's something that you know, it's

2051
01:48:46,080 --> 01:48:50,280
Speaker 1: so shameful for us. Um, most people will never talk

2052
01:48:50,320 --> 01:48:52,400
Speaker 1: about it, and that I was really glad that the

2053
01:48:52,400 --> 01:48:55,720
Speaker 1: both of us could talk about it together and some

2054
01:48:55,800 --> 01:49:00,439
Speaker 1: of our connections and similarities in our experiences. UM. You know,

2055
01:49:00,880 --> 01:49:02,880
Speaker 1: it took some balls on his part to come forward

2056
01:49:02,880 --> 01:49:05,840
Speaker 1: and tell this story. UM. I know I know better

2057
01:49:05,880 --> 01:49:09,639
Speaker 1: than most people, because you know I came in forward

2058
01:49:09,680 --> 01:49:14,080
Speaker 1: and told my part of this story too. UM. But

2059
01:49:15,000 --> 01:49:17,000
Speaker 1: I just hope people listen to it and learned something

2060
01:49:17,040 --> 01:49:20,679
Speaker 1: from it. And I feel like they most certainly will. Um,

2061
01:49:20,880 --> 01:49:25,080
Speaker 1: First and foremost for me, the fact that it had

2062
01:49:25,200 --> 01:49:27,840
Speaker 1: like you know, it obviously happened to Stephen, it happened

2063
01:49:27,880 --> 01:49:30,880
Speaker 1: to you. And then what's a van Van Alice? I

2064
01:49:30,920 --> 01:49:33,559
Speaker 1: don't know, Alice, my platoon sergeant he died from from that.

2065
01:49:33,640 --> 01:49:36,360
Speaker 1: Those are three instances of friendly fire right there. Like

2066
01:49:36,720 --> 01:49:39,280
Speaker 1: I didn't realize obviously I knew the Pat Tilman stuff

2067
01:49:39,320 --> 01:49:43,320
Speaker 1: just from I mean, if you grew up in the

2068
01:49:43,360 --> 01:49:45,479
Speaker 1: mid two thousands like I did, you knew that just

2069
01:49:45,520 --> 01:49:48,560
Speaker 1: because of who Pat Tilman was. So that was a

2070
01:49:48,640 --> 01:49:52,720
Speaker 1: huge story. UM, I didn't realize it occurs. I don't

2071
01:49:52,720 --> 01:49:54,680
Speaker 1: want to say this frequently because obviously you know, you

2072
01:49:54,680 --> 01:49:57,639
Speaker 1: don't want it to happen as well. But this wasn't

2073
01:49:57,640 --> 01:50:00,240
Speaker 1: a one off like this this does take place, which

2074
01:50:00,280 --> 01:50:02,360
Speaker 1: is it's not a one off at all, um. And

2075
01:50:02,400 --> 01:50:05,240
Speaker 1: there are many other incidents out there. These are just

2076
01:50:05,479 --> 01:50:07,680
Speaker 1: some of the ones that we have personal connections to

2077
01:50:07,840 --> 01:50:13,560
Speaker 1: that we're talking about. UM. I know about special operations community,

2078
01:50:13,760 --> 01:50:18,920
Speaker 1: um that we're never publicized, which has to be like

2079
01:50:20,880 --> 01:50:24,160
Speaker 1: pretty much the lowest feeling you can have, like within

2080
01:50:24,280 --> 01:50:27,639
Speaker 1: within the military. And I couldn't even equate to something

2081
01:50:27,680 --> 01:50:30,880
Speaker 1: like I don't know, maybe maybe killing like a little

2082
01:50:30,960 --> 01:50:34,000
Speaker 1: kid on accident right right, but outside like friendly fire's

2083
01:50:34,000 --> 01:50:38,400
Speaker 1: gotta because you're you know, especially how they split the squad,

2084
01:50:38,479 --> 01:50:40,880
Speaker 1: like you know, just listening to the story, it's like that.

2085
01:50:41,120 --> 01:50:43,080
Speaker 1: In my head, I'm like, well, that's wrong, that's wrong,

2086
01:50:43,120 --> 01:50:45,519
Speaker 1: Like I wouldn't have done that. But I mean, easier

2087
01:50:45,560 --> 01:50:47,479
Speaker 1: for me to say that same thing in my kids.

2088
01:50:47,800 --> 01:50:50,759
Speaker 1: Our element was split, um, which is it was doctrinal

2089
01:50:50,800 --> 01:50:53,439
Speaker 1: though in our case, like the MSS stays behind, the

2090
01:50:53,479 --> 01:50:56,679
Speaker 1: wrecky element goes forward on foot. That's that's a straight

2091
01:50:56,680 --> 01:51:00,280
Speaker 1: out of the manual UM. But in retrospect, there are

2092
01:51:00,360 --> 01:51:02,640
Speaker 1: some control measures we should have put in place that

2093
01:51:02,760 --> 01:51:05,240
Speaker 1: could have helped prevents. And just like I, you know,

2094
01:51:05,240 --> 01:51:09,160
Speaker 1: I dropped down notes during it um the chain of command,

2095
01:51:09,200 --> 01:51:11,080
Speaker 1: like I obviously you have to respect that, but just

2096
01:51:11,920 --> 01:51:13,920
Speaker 1: it just feels like everyone's trying to cover their own ass.

2097
01:51:13,920 --> 01:51:16,519
Speaker 1: And then it's like Loman, you know, well sorry buddy,

2098
01:51:16,560 --> 01:51:18,320
Speaker 1: like you're you're the bottom gun the tunnel pole, like

2099
01:51:18,640 --> 01:51:21,320
Speaker 1: hit the bricks, buddy, Yeah, I mean it goes all

2100
01:51:21,360 --> 01:51:26,000
Speaker 1: the way up to General McCrystal um. And but yeah,

2101
01:51:26,120 --> 01:51:28,640
Speaker 1: for them to like blame a bunch of like privates

2102
01:51:28,640 --> 01:51:31,160
Speaker 1: and specialists like yeah, it's it's all on you guys,

2103
01:51:31,720 --> 01:51:36,519
Speaker 1: and especially in Steven's case, like uh hey guys, no kidding.

2104
01:51:36,520 --> 01:51:38,040
Speaker 1: Like if I if I had the opportunity not to

2105
01:51:38,120 --> 01:51:41,280
Speaker 1: kill Pat Tilman, no no ship, I was like, yeah,

2106
01:51:41,360 --> 01:51:43,320
Speaker 1: I'm not aiming for him. It wasn't like I went

2107
01:51:43,439 --> 01:51:47,639
Speaker 1: rogue here, like you know, ship went down, something got crossed.

2108
01:51:47,720 --> 01:51:49,920
Speaker 1: It It's like we were talking in this podcast. I

2109
01:51:50,280 --> 01:51:53,240
Speaker 1: mean I was telling you earlier that the Pentagon the

2110
01:51:53,280 --> 01:51:56,280
Speaker 1: Poise troops, because that's what the Pentagon does, you know,

2111
01:51:56,320 --> 01:51:58,760
Speaker 1: the range of regiment. You know, Stephen was talking about,

2112
01:51:58,800 --> 01:52:01,240
Speaker 1: you know, we prepare our hit a certain way. You

2113
01:52:01,280 --> 01:52:03,800
Speaker 1: sew up your patrol capitental, which is because that's the

2114
01:52:03,800 --> 01:52:06,799
Speaker 1: way we've always done it. The regiment, the range of regiment,

2115
01:52:07,080 --> 01:52:09,840
Speaker 1: like that's the only that's the tool they have is

2116
01:52:09,880 --> 01:52:13,240
Speaker 1: to rfs to release for standards. So I honestly, I

2117
01:52:13,240 --> 01:52:16,160
Speaker 1: don't think they really knew what else to do. And

2118
01:52:16,200 --> 01:52:20,879
Speaker 1: that's what Elliott's I'm sorry with Stephen. What Steven Elliot's

2119
01:52:20,960 --> 01:52:24,960
Speaker 1: platoon sergeant was alluding to when he got RFS was like, hey, man,

2120
01:52:25,280 --> 01:52:27,640
Speaker 1: like it's a raw deal, you know, sorry, like we

2121
01:52:27,680 --> 01:52:31,599
Speaker 1: know you're getting the chef, but you're still getting the chef. Um.

2122
01:52:31,640 --> 01:52:34,040
Speaker 1: But the regiment probably they they're like, holy sh it,

2123
01:52:34,120 --> 01:52:35,920
Speaker 1: we had this friendly fire incident. What do we do

2124
01:52:35,960 --> 01:52:38,000
Speaker 1: with these guys? And they probably didn't just didn't know

2125
01:52:38,040 --> 01:52:42,200
Speaker 1: what else to do with it. Now is that like

2126
01:52:45,080 --> 01:52:47,320
Speaker 1: this might sound like a dump question, but like does

2127
01:52:47,560 --> 01:52:50,519
Speaker 1: an action need to take place? Like you know, you

2128
01:52:50,560 --> 01:52:52,439
Speaker 1: go in there and and they break it down, like

2129
01:52:52,520 --> 01:52:55,400
Speaker 1: you know, they asked Steven, they're like, hey, what went what?

2130
01:52:55,600 --> 01:52:57,360
Speaker 1: Like what went down? And he says, you know, X,

2131
01:52:57,479 --> 01:53:00,000
Speaker 1: Y and Z, this is what happened. Here's a result.

2132
01:53:01,280 --> 01:53:04,160
Speaker 1: Can it be like something as simple as like, look, yeah,

2133
01:53:04,200 --> 01:53:06,920
Speaker 1: everybody fucked up, We're just kind of going to ignore

2134
01:53:07,000 --> 01:53:09,120
Speaker 1: this one. But no, you can't. You can't say That's

2135
01:53:09,120 --> 01:53:11,960
Speaker 1: another thing about the institution of the armies. You can't

2136
01:53:11,960 --> 01:53:15,320
Speaker 1: say that. You can't say shit happens, because like any

2137
01:53:15,400 --> 01:53:18,400
Speaker 1: any time there's a problem from like a general's perspective

2138
01:53:18,479 --> 01:53:20,679
Speaker 1: or a colonel, it's like, okay, what's the fix. Yeah,

2139
01:53:20,680 --> 01:53:22,120
Speaker 1: there needs to be an answer, and you can't come

2140
01:53:22,160 --> 01:53:25,080
Speaker 1: back and say we don't have a fix like that.

2141
01:53:25,400 --> 01:53:29,759
Speaker 1: The staff guys will always find some kind of spin,

2142
01:53:30,160 --> 01:53:31,960
Speaker 1: some kind of like you want to come back with

2143
01:53:32,000 --> 01:53:33,719
Speaker 1: an answer. You don't want to go to the general

2144
01:53:33,720 --> 01:53:38,000
Speaker 1: of the colonel and say act of God should happens,

2145
01:53:38,080 --> 01:53:40,640
Speaker 1: you know, out of our control. You know, they have

2146
01:53:40,720 --> 01:53:44,120
Speaker 1: to come back with some kind of answer. And uh,

2147
01:53:44,160 --> 01:53:45,840
Speaker 1: I mean that was probably more of a you question

2148
01:53:45,840 --> 01:53:49,200
Speaker 1: because with with Stephen, just the name pet Tillman, like

2149
01:53:49,200 --> 01:53:51,040
Speaker 1: like you said, he was the I don't want to

2150
01:53:51,040 --> 01:53:53,400
Speaker 1: say poster child, but pretty much the poster child he was.

2151
01:53:53,479 --> 01:53:56,160
Speaker 1: He was he was the regiment's poster child. And at

2152
01:53:56,160 --> 01:53:59,479
Speaker 1: the time, yeah, for me, like I was, so what

2153
01:53:59,600 --> 01:54:01,519
Speaker 1: was this? Two was in three four is I was

2154
01:54:01,560 --> 01:54:03,720
Speaker 1: in high school. I was, you know, sophomore, junior year

2155
01:54:03,800 --> 01:54:08,880
Speaker 1: high school. Um, he you know, when it first came out,

2156
01:54:08,920 --> 01:54:10,320
Speaker 1: it was, oh, you know he was killed by the

2157
01:54:10,360 --> 01:54:13,000
Speaker 1: Taliban or whoever. And it was like, you know, that's

2158
01:54:13,000 --> 01:54:16,160
Speaker 1: fucked up. But he, you know, he he went there

2159
01:54:16,160 --> 01:54:18,240
Speaker 1: trying to serve and unfortunately we got the row in.

2160
01:54:18,800 --> 01:54:22,280
Speaker 1: And then however, many months or years later it comes

2161
01:54:22,280 --> 01:54:24,080
Speaker 1: out it was like, oh, it was actually a friendly fire.

2162
01:54:24,479 --> 01:54:26,800
Speaker 1: And for Stephen to like, obviously I had no idea

2163
01:54:26,840 --> 01:54:30,000
Speaker 1: about that, and for Stephen to come out and be like, yeah,

2164
01:54:30,000 --> 01:54:32,240
Speaker 1: we knew within a day, like it was because of us,

2165
01:54:33,000 --> 01:54:35,320
Speaker 1: It's like, well when then what the funk? Like because

2166
01:54:35,360 --> 01:54:37,320
Speaker 1: they were trying whose idea was it to be like,

2167
01:54:37,360 --> 01:54:39,080
Speaker 1: you know what, let's let's try and cover this up.

2168
01:54:39,680 --> 01:54:42,720
Speaker 1: We'll tell them that it was the other team and

2169
01:54:42,760 --> 01:54:45,320
Speaker 1: we'll we'll hope for the best. That's that's a good question.

2170
01:54:45,400 --> 01:54:47,680
Speaker 1: And that happened at very high levels, right like you

2171
01:54:47,680 --> 01:54:51,600
Speaker 1: know that nobody nobody there was thinking like, guys, at

2172
01:54:51,640 --> 01:54:53,160
Speaker 1: some point this is going to come out. It was us,

2173
01:54:53,440 --> 01:54:55,440
Speaker 1: let's let's get ahead, not even get ahead of it.

2174
01:54:55,480 --> 01:54:57,880
Speaker 1: Let's let's tell the truth. I mean, Steven said, tell

2175
01:54:57,920 --> 01:55:00,800
Speaker 1: the truth. Who made the who made the decision. We're

2176
01:55:00,800 --> 01:55:03,680
Speaker 1: gonna lie to the family. In the interview, he said

2177
01:55:03,720 --> 01:55:05,600
Speaker 1: he was like, it sucks because they have to deal

2178
01:55:05,600 --> 01:55:07,200
Speaker 1: with it twice. You know, it's it's bad enough you

2179
01:55:07,280 --> 01:55:11,160
Speaker 1: lost him, but okay, somebody got the better of him.

2180
01:55:12,040 --> 01:55:13,920
Speaker 1: You can not that you can live with that, but

2181
01:55:14,320 --> 01:55:16,920
Speaker 1: you can grasp that. Then all of a sudden it

2182
01:55:16,920 --> 01:55:21,040
Speaker 1: comes out, Nah, you know something went wrong on our

2183
01:55:21,200 --> 01:55:25,560
Speaker 1: end and it was friendly fire. Now you like, whether

2184
01:55:25,640 --> 01:55:29,720
Speaker 1: you've come to grips with pat dying initially is one thing,

2185
01:55:29,760 --> 01:55:32,080
Speaker 1: and now you gotta you're just reopening old wounds, and

2186
01:55:32,120 --> 01:55:34,560
Speaker 1: it's and it's almost worse. It's worse because now that

2187
01:55:34,680 --> 01:55:37,320
Speaker 1: now your government's lying to you, it's horrible. It'd rather

2188
01:55:37,440 --> 01:55:40,200
Speaker 1: rather just like take the news. You know, your your

2189
01:55:40,240 --> 01:55:43,560
Speaker 1: your family member died in combat and this is how

2190
01:55:43,560 --> 01:55:46,480
Speaker 1: it went down. Um, that's that's a tough pill to swallow.

2191
01:55:46,520 --> 01:55:47,920
Speaker 1: But like you can deal with that. But then when

2192
01:55:47,960 --> 01:55:50,560
Speaker 1: you find out people are lying to you, it's like, oh,

2193
01:55:50,760 --> 01:55:53,000
Speaker 1: now now you're in a totally different realm. This this

2194
01:55:53,160 --> 01:55:54,720
Speaker 1: just popped in my head and I know you're a

2195
01:55:54,720 --> 01:55:59,000
Speaker 1: comic book guy. Um a little of a like Harvey

2196
01:55:59,040 --> 01:56:03,760
Speaker 1: Dent White Knights situation where like like he's our he's

2197
01:56:03,800 --> 01:56:06,040
Speaker 1: what like he's the good and all of us. I'm

2198
01:56:06,080 --> 01:56:08,400
Speaker 1: thinking of the Christian band What was the Dark Knight?

2199
01:56:08,720 --> 01:56:11,960
Speaker 1: Is it rises? No? No No Dark Knight? Where at the

2200
01:56:12,080 --> 01:56:13,760
Speaker 1: end when you know Harvey Dent dies and it's like

2201
01:56:13,880 --> 01:56:15,680
Speaker 1: Pat Tillman dies, Oh and they got to keep the

2202
01:56:15,680 --> 01:56:18,160
Speaker 1: myth alot And they're like, well, like he's like he's

2203
01:56:18,160 --> 01:56:20,120
Speaker 1: our hero, Like this is the guy we want. We

2204
01:56:20,160 --> 01:56:24,480
Speaker 1: can't our our guys can't kill him. We maybe maybe

2205
01:56:24,520 --> 01:56:26,520
Speaker 1: that's their logic. I don't know, Like I'm not no.

2206
01:56:26,800 --> 01:56:29,440
Speaker 1: I mean that's a roundabout way of explaining it, but

2207
01:56:29,640 --> 01:56:31,800
Speaker 1: I think, yeah, you're right, there's a there's like he

2208
01:56:31,960 --> 01:56:34,520
Speaker 1: was the Army kind of wanted him to be the

2209
01:56:34,520 --> 01:56:38,160
Speaker 1: poster boy. The range of regiment did too, and then

2210
01:56:38,240 --> 01:56:42,400
Speaker 1: after his death they realized very quickly I was friendly fire,

2211
01:56:42,480 --> 01:56:44,440
Speaker 1: but like, no, we want to keep the myth alive

2212
01:56:44,480 --> 01:56:46,600
Speaker 1: and people's heads. You know, he went out in a

2213
01:56:46,640 --> 01:56:49,680
Speaker 1: blaze of glory and contract. We didn't die from one

2214
01:56:49,720 --> 01:56:52,280
Speaker 1: of us, right, right, And we've talked about this many

2215
01:56:52,360 --> 01:56:54,520
Speaker 1: times actually on the podcast, like when we had ed

2216
01:56:54,600 --> 01:56:57,879
Speaker 1: to rock on and talking about UM the Extortion seventeen

2217
01:56:57,920 --> 01:57:00,400
Speaker 1: crash where a bunch of Seals were killed on the

2218
01:57:00,400 --> 01:57:03,800
Speaker 1: helicopter was shot down. All these conspiracy theories come up

2219
01:57:03,800 --> 01:57:07,680
Speaker 1: around it because people cannot wrap their minds around that

2220
01:57:07,800 --> 01:57:11,720
Speaker 1: a bunch of Seal Team six operators, like our best soldiers, right,

2221
01:57:11,760 --> 01:57:14,840
Speaker 1: our best troops just die in the blink of an eye,

2222
01:57:15,200 --> 01:57:18,120
Speaker 1: like just snuffed out. You know, a guy gets a

2223
01:57:18,160 --> 01:57:20,680
Speaker 1: lucky shot off with an RPG, shoots down a helicopter.

2224
01:57:20,840 --> 01:57:23,520
Speaker 1: Sometimes you lose and and our our badass commandos all

2225
01:57:23,560 --> 01:57:26,680
Speaker 1: die and one fell swoop like that. Um. People just

2226
01:57:26,720 --> 01:57:29,160
Speaker 1: don't like they can't wrap their mind around it because,

2227
01:57:29,680 --> 01:57:32,160
Speaker 1: I mean, war doesn't work the way it does in

2228
01:57:32,200 --> 01:57:35,360
Speaker 1: the movies or in the comic books. You know, you know,

2229
01:57:35,600 --> 01:57:41,560
Speaker 1: not every every death is a heroic UM sacrifice. I

2230
01:57:41,560 --> 01:57:45,480
Speaker 1: mean it's it is her sacrifice for sure, that they

2231
01:57:45,720 --> 01:57:49,240
Speaker 1: served our country, but it isn't you know, people want

2232
01:57:49,240 --> 01:57:50,920
Speaker 1: to blow it up into you know, going out in

2233
01:57:50,960 --> 01:57:53,440
Speaker 1: a blaze of glory and active combat with the enemy,

2234
01:57:53,440 --> 01:57:56,960
Speaker 1: and you know, sadly, you know, sometimes our most professional

2235
01:57:57,000 --> 01:57:59,800
Speaker 1: soldiers run over an I e. D In Street and

2236
01:58:00,120 --> 01:58:03,240
Speaker 1: kills them and they're just dead and and there there

2237
01:58:03,280 --> 01:58:07,200
Speaker 1: there's nothing I mean, sadly, there's nothing heroic about it.

2238
01:58:07,400 --> 01:58:10,480
Speaker 1: You know, it's just the realism of the war. I mean,

2239
01:58:10,480 --> 01:58:13,120
Speaker 1: they're they're they're sacrifice is real, and there is a

2240
01:58:13,200 --> 01:58:16,840
Speaker 1: heroism in that that they they stepped up to that line.

2241
01:58:17,600 --> 01:58:20,600
Speaker 1: But the manner in which you know, you check out,

2242
01:58:20,720 --> 01:58:22,880
Speaker 1: you know, you might just step around the corner of

2243
01:58:22,880 --> 01:58:26,080
Speaker 1: a building and get shot by a sniper and yeah,

2244
01:58:26,120 --> 01:58:28,640
Speaker 1: nobody's gonna make a movie out of that. It's not

2245
01:58:29,560 --> 01:58:32,640
Speaker 1: it's not the it's not the heroic narrative. Um. And

2246
01:58:32,680 --> 01:58:35,280
Speaker 1: that's kind of what me and Stephen we're talking about today, Like,

2247
01:58:35,320 --> 01:58:37,480
Speaker 1: this is not the heroic narrative, and that's why you

2248
01:58:37,480 --> 01:58:39,760
Speaker 1: don't really hear about it. So, I mean you talk

2249
01:58:39,800 --> 01:58:43,240
Speaker 1: about it often, how you know, writing your book Murphy

2250
01:58:43,280 --> 01:58:48,560
Speaker 1: Law check it out, Um. I love I love plugging. Um.

2251
01:58:48,600 --> 01:58:50,240
Speaker 1: How you talk about You're like, I want to give

2252
01:58:50,280 --> 01:58:54,680
Speaker 1: people that are either interested or becoming I want to

2253
01:58:54,680 --> 01:58:57,320
Speaker 1: tell them the truth like that, it's not all you know,

2254
01:58:57,840 --> 01:59:01,840
Speaker 1: black Hawk down and you know, saving Private Ryan like that.

2255
01:59:02,560 --> 01:59:06,440
Speaker 1: There's a there's an ugliness to war and you know,

2256
01:59:06,560 --> 01:59:09,960
Speaker 1: obviously both of you have have a connection. And it's

2257
01:59:10,000 --> 01:59:13,320
Speaker 1: not to tell people that they shouldn't join the military.

2258
01:59:13,360 --> 01:59:16,200
Speaker 1: What it is is that I just want them to

2259
01:59:16,240 --> 01:59:19,280
Speaker 1: have a realistic perspective and if they have those ideas

2260
01:59:19,280 --> 01:59:23,320
Speaker 1: in their mind, that they know these things happen. Um

2261
01:59:23,360 --> 01:59:25,960
Speaker 1: that war is an ugly thing that when they actually

2262
01:59:26,000 --> 01:59:28,800
Speaker 1: experience it, it won't come as such a big shock.

2263
01:59:29,480 --> 01:59:31,240
Speaker 1: You know, maybe they'll be able to process that a

2264
01:59:31,240 --> 01:59:35,280
Speaker 1: little bit better. I mean, ideally they'll make a little

2265
01:59:35,280 --> 01:59:37,840
Speaker 1: bit better decisions than I made in some circumstances. Maybe

2266
01:59:37,840 --> 01:59:40,040
Speaker 1: they'll be able to avoid some of those things entirely.

2267
01:59:40,480 --> 01:59:43,360
Speaker 1: But um, worst case, you know, at least it's not

2268
01:59:43,440 --> 01:59:47,000
Speaker 1: like such a shock, Like, oh, I've read other other people,

2269
01:59:47,040 --> 01:59:50,080
Speaker 1: other soldiers have written about these incidents, So I know

2270
01:59:50,160 --> 01:59:52,640
Speaker 1: this stuff is out there, which is which is awesome

2271
01:59:52,680 --> 01:59:57,400
Speaker 1: because if you're just reading like the I'm not that

2272
01:59:58,240 --> 02:00:00,160
Speaker 1: we do. But like the positive where is just like

2273
02:00:00,200 --> 02:00:02,320
Speaker 1: you know, the army is great, that rah rah rah,

2274
02:00:02,400 --> 02:00:04,800
Speaker 1: like the flag waving and all that, and you get

2275
02:00:04,840 --> 02:00:06,600
Speaker 1: in there and you see ship like that's got to

2276
02:00:06,600 --> 02:00:09,240
Speaker 1: be a cold like you're just not ready for that

2277
02:00:09,280 --> 02:00:11,160
Speaker 1: at all. No man That's what I was talking about

2278
02:00:11,240 --> 02:00:14,560
Speaker 1: last time, Like support the troops, Like that's two thousand

2279
02:00:14,600 --> 02:00:17,920
Speaker 1: and three. Spreading awareness, that's like two thousand and ten.

2280
02:00:18,200 --> 02:00:21,840
Speaker 1: Like now we're we're like eighteen years into the war here,

2281
02:00:22,400 --> 02:00:25,879
Speaker 1: Like we are past those points, Okay, Like I support

2282
02:00:25,920 --> 02:00:27,800
Speaker 1: the troops. I don't need to keep telling people I

2283
02:00:27,840 --> 02:00:31,040
Speaker 1: support the troops every day. Okay, Like okay, got it.

2284
02:00:31,480 --> 02:00:34,760
Speaker 1: Like now we need to talk about what's really going

2285
02:00:34,800 --> 02:00:38,920
Speaker 1: on and how things can be done better, maybe UM

2286
02:00:39,000 --> 02:00:41,040
Speaker 1: to get people to think critically about it. Like in

2287
02:00:41,480 --> 02:00:44,800
Speaker 1: uh Steven's case, he has that that not for profit.

2288
02:00:44,840 --> 02:00:49,080
Speaker 1: They're trying to UM bring about policy changes, which is awesome. Yeah,

2289
02:00:49,200 --> 02:00:53,640
Speaker 1: spreading awareness is bullshit. People know. People know. Okay, now

2290
02:00:53,680 --> 02:00:56,640
Speaker 1: it's time to the like actually do some stuff. UM

2291
02:00:56,760 --> 02:00:59,720
Speaker 1: whatever that is, whatever venue you take, you know. My

2292
02:01:00,240 --> 02:01:02,280
Speaker 1: mine has been to write about it and to bring

2293
02:01:02,320 --> 02:01:06,960
Speaker 1: new information to the public UM, which gets a lot

2294
02:01:06,960 --> 02:01:10,000
Speaker 1: of backlash, but hey man, it is what it is, right.

2295
02:01:10,680 --> 02:01:13,120
Speaker 1: I mean, in my eyes, that means you're doing something right.

2296
02:01:13,960 --> 02:01:17,800
Speaker 1: We'll see. But the same same thing with this podcast,

2297
02:01:17,840 --> 02:01:20,880
Speaker 1: I mean, were the goal is to bring some of

2298
02:01:20,920 --> 02:01:24,720
Speaker 1: these voices like Stephen to the forefront UM and since

2299
02:01:24,760 --> 02:01:27,760
Speaker 1: we're wrapping up, I'll tease out. I'm not going to

2300
02:01:27,920 --> 02:01:30,560
Speaker 1: name names yet, but i'll tease out next next next

2301
02:01:30,600 --> 02:01:34,080
Speaker 1: week is gonna be awesome. Big week. Next week we

2302
02:01:34,120 --> 02:01:37,920
Speaker 1: have a retired Jaysock operator coming on. I was asked

2303
02:01:38,080 --> 02:01:42,520
Speaker 1: not to use the D word. I won't use it. Um,

2304
02:01:42,560 --> 02:01:50,000
Speaker 1: but it's Dennis the This guy is a retired operator. UM.

2305
02:01:50,120 --> 02:01:52,560
Speaker 1: I don't think he's ever done an interview before. You

2306
02:01:52,640 --> 02:01:54,880
Speaker 1: had said that. When, um, when you were telling me

2307
02:01:54,920 --> 02:01:58,840
Speaker 1: so that it's gonna be interesting, and I I've I

2308
02:01:58,880 --> 02:02:01,680
Speaker 1: went and asked a good end of mine who served

2309
02:02:02,160 --> 02:02:05,200
Speaker 1: uh in the same unit, do you know such and stuff?

2310
02:02:05,280 --> 02:02:07,800
Speaker 1: She's like, I've known him for like almost thirty years.

2311
02:02:07,840 --> 02:02:10,040
Speaker 1: He's a great person, great American. I was like, man,

2312
02:02:10,080 --> 02:02:12,000
Speaker 1: I'm so happy to hear that, because we talked. I

2313
02:02:12,080 --> 02:02:14,040
Speaker 1: talked on this guest we're having on. I talked to

2314
02:02:14,080 --> 02:02:16,040
Speaker 1: him on the phone like what two nights ago, had

2315
02:02:16,400 --> 02:02:19,720
Speaker 1: like an hour and a half phone conversation with him.

2316
02:02:19,760 --> 02:02:23,400
Speaker 1: Super cool guy, super cool guy. He's gonna have really

2317
02:02:23,560 --> 02:02:27,000
Speaker 1: really down to earth and he's gonna be able to

2318
02:02:27,080 --> 02:02:30,560
Speaker 1: illuminate a lot of things about his military career and

2319
02:02:30,600 --> 02:02:33,840
Speaker 1: also transitioning out of the military and he has his

2320
02:02:33,880 --> 02:02:37,440
Speaker 1: own experience. Is really cool. Um. And then our second

2321
02:02:37,520 --> 02:02:42,440
Speaker 1: interview next week is a retired CIA officer and he

2322
02:02:42,520 --> 02:02:46,720
Speaker 1: was fairly senior at the agency and back in the

2323
02:02:46,800 --> 02:02:50,160
Speaker 1: day his job, Um, we'll let him talk about it.

2324
02:02:50,200 --> 02:02:55,160
Speaker 1: But one of his jobs was making essentially like disinformation films.

2325
02:02:56,160 --> 02:03:00,360
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, so like trick bad guys. Interesting, Yeah, he

2326
02:03:00,360 --> 02:03:03,840
Speaker 1: made essentially propaganda films that is something to to to

2327
02:03:04,200 --> 02:03:09,480
Speaker 1: mind trip uh and fool the enemy involved in early

2328
02:03:09,560 --> 02:03:12,760
Speaker 1: counter terrorism efforts back in back in the day. So

2329
02:03:13,840 --> 02:03:17,200
Speaker 1: and he has he ever done I have to suspect

2330
02:03:17,240 --> 02:03:20,680
Speaker 1: he's done interviews before, but he's not. He's not like

2331
02:03:20,720 --> 02:03:25,000
Speaker 1: a super well known guy. Um, it's gonna be interesting.

2332
02:03:25,080 --> 02:03:27,840
Speaker 1: It's gonna be really interesting to get into it with him.

2333
02:03:27,920 --> 02:03:30,960
Speaker 1: That it'll it'll certainly be a fun next two episodes.

2334
02:03:31,000 --> 02:03:33,400
Speaker 1: I mean, this was this wasn't a fun episode because

2335
02:03:33,760 --> 02:03:37,360
Speaker 1: the topic. But uh, but Stephen was incredible. Um, thank

2336
02:03:37,360 --> 02:03:40,160
Speaker 1: you for coming on. As I said, the book is

2337
02:03:40,280 --> 02:03:45,520
Speaker 1: War Story, The profit is Elliott fun dot org. Go

2338
02:03:45,680 --> 02:03:48,840
Speaker 1: on there, Um, what was that petition? I think he

2339
02:03:48,880 --> 02:03:51,640
Speaker 1: said sign up for the petition, but also by the book,

2340
02:03:51,680 --> 02:03:54,320
Speaker 1: which you can buy on that website. But while you're there,

2341
02:03:54,400 --> 02:03:56,880
Speaker 1: also by Murphy's Murphy's Law, I mean I said it once,

2342
02:03:56,880 --> 02:03:59,160
Speaker 1: I say again, by Murphy's Law. You know, don't let

2343
02:03:59,160 --> 02:04:04,560
Speaker 1: the terrorists win. Buy this book as we try and

2344
02:04:04,600 --> 02:04:07,440
Speaker 1: as we try and get against just flag waving. But seriously,

2345
02:04:07,480 --> 02:04:10,000
Speaker 1: if you don't buy Murphy's Law, you basically hate America.

2346
02:04:10,040 --> 02:04:13,240
Speaker 1: It's like, what's wrong with you? But no, the book

2347
02:04:13,280 --> 02:04:15,520
Speaker 1: is out there, and and go check out Steven's book

2348
02:04:15,520 --> 02:04:18,600
Speaker 1: to like I'm I'm gonna go and um me and

2349
02:04:18,600 --> 02:04:21,880
Speaker 1: Steven are gonna swap books and uh, which I need

2350
02:04:21,960 --> 02:04:23,880
Speaker 1: to write a book because that's such an easy like, Hey,

2351
02:04:23,920 --> 02:04:25,520
Speaker 1: I want to read your book. Here, take one of mine.

2352
02:04:25,680 --> 02:04:28,440
Speaker 1: There you go. Maybe I could pass off Dr Seuss

2353
02:04:28,480 --> 02:04:31,600
Speaker 1: my own. I'm not very I'm not I'm not very

2354
02:04:31,840 --> 02:04:34,160
Speaker 1: I'm not very skilled in that in writing. I barely

2355
02:04:34,200 --> 02:04:37,080
Speaker 1: can talk. So I'm gonna have to find a different avenue.

2356
02:04:37,120 --> 02:04:39,200
Speaker 1: Maybe I'll just write your coat tails. Hey, you might

2357
02:04:39,240 --> 02:04:41,760
Speaker 1: send it to My daughter really loves these war stories,

2358
02:04:42,640 --> 02:04:45,280
Speaker 1: like it's just given them me. I would appreciate that

2359
02:04:45,600 --> 02:04:48,680
Speaker 1: some food for thought. Jack. But before we go, I

2360
02:04:48,680 --> 02:04:50,680
Speaker 1: have to tell you guys something. Be sure to check

2361
02:04:50,720 --> 02:04:53,760
Speaker 1: out Create Club. It's a club four men by men

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Speaker 1: of gear, hand picked by Special Operations veterans. Ol Tier

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Speaker 1: crates are available at Create Club dot us and right

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Speaker 1: now we're running an extremely limited promotion of off for

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Speaker 1: all softwarep radio listeners. This is the biggest discount we've

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Speaker 1: ever made available and we're not sure how long we're

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Speaker 1: gonna keep the promotion, so you better get on it

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Speaker 1: right now. That's great Club dot us. The coupon code

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Speaker 1: is soft reap s O f R EP off your

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Speaker 1: subscription for all creates sign up today. Also as a

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02:05:24,800 --> 02:05:26,960
Speaker 1: reminder to you the listener, now is the time to

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02:05:27,000 --> 02:05:29,600
Speaker 1: sign up for spec Ops Channel. It's our channel that

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02:05:29,640 --> 02:05:33,440
Speaker 1: offers the most exclusive shows, documentaries and interviews covering the

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02:05:33,440 --> 02:05:37,440
Speaker 1: most exciting military content today. The spec Ops channel premier show,

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02:05:37,480 --> 02:05:41,560
Speaker 1: Training Cell follows former Special Operations Forces as they participate

2376
02:05:41,600 --> 02:05:44,320
Speaker 1: in the most advanced training in the country, everything from

2377
02:05:44,320 --> 02:05:48,760
Speaker 1: shooting schools, defensive driving, jungle and winter warfare, climbing and

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02:05:48,880 --> 02:05:51,839
Speaker 1: much more. Again, you can watch this and other content

2379
02:05:51,960 --> 02:05:54,920
Speaker 1: by subscribing to the spec Ops Channel at spec ops

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02:05:55,000 --> 02:05:58,000
Speaker 1: channel dot com. Take advantage of a membership for only

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02:05:58,040 --> 02:06:03,440
Speaker 1: four a month. That's Specups channel dot com. Sign up today. Last,

2382
02:06:03,480 --> 02:06:05,200
Speaker 1: if you've not already signed up at the news rep

2383
02:06:05,240 --> 02:06:08,240
Speaker 1: dot com, you gotta get on board. There's expert reporting

2384
02:06:08,320 --> 02:06:11,400
Speaker 1: and actionable intelligence from your favorite writers you've heard on here,

2385
02:06:11,560 --> 02:06:14,520
Speaker 1: guys like Jack Murphy, the Man to my left. They're Stavros,

2386
02:06:15,000 --> 02:06:20,280
Speaker 1: Alex rord Apiece, Uh Thursday on Iran. Speaking of Iran,

2387
02:06:20,320 --> 02:06:22,960
Speaker 1: we talked about it earlier. Uh. There's many other guests

2388
02:06:23,000 --> 02:06:25,120
Speaker 1: who popp in as well. You get unlimited access to

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Speaker 1: now where you can get four weeks for only sign

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02:06:40,440 --> 02:06:43,400
Speaker 1: up now at the news rep dot com. That's the

2395
02:06:43,480 --> 02:06:46,680
Speaker 1: news Rep dot com. By the way, if you're not aware,

2396
02:06:47,080 --> 02:06:49,240
Speaker 1: we have our own softwap radio app that you can

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02:06:49,280 --> 02:06:52,400
Speaker 1: download for free on iPhone or Android, and our homepage

2398
02:06:52,440 --> 02:06:55,320
Speaker 1: is soft rep radio dot com where you can see

2399
02:06:55,320 --> 02:06:57,960
Speaker 1: our full archive of shows. As always, keep up with

2400
02:06:58,040 --> 02:07:01,240
Speaker 1: us on social media at soft rep breed you as well.

2401
02:07:02,280 --> 02:07:05,680
Speaker 1: That concludes episode four hundred and sixty seven. Thank you

2402
02:07:05,720 --> 02:07:08,240
Speaker 1: to Stephen, thank you to you as well for telling

2403
02:07:08,280 --> 02:07:13,720
Speaker 1: your story. Um, great conversation. Is always looking forward to

2404
02:07:13,800 --> 02:07:17,000
Speaker 1: next week, like you said, it's gonna be. Yeah, we've

2405
02:07:17,000 --> 02:07:20,280
Speaker 1: got some heavy hitters lined up here. I feel good.

2406
02:07:20,320 --> 02:07:22,960
Speaker 1: I feel like, uh maybe at the beginner's luck since

2407
02:07:23,160 --> 02:07:27,320
Speaker 1: since I'm new, but we've we've done very well. I'll

2408
02:07:27,320 --> 02:07:31,959
Speaker 1: tell you the two guys the the Army counter terrorism

2409
02:07:32,040 --> 02:07:35,400
Speaker 1: operator as as much as Mr guest one, Mr guest

2410
02:07:35,440 --> 02:07:40,680
Speaker 1: one and uh and Mr former CIA officer, they were

2411
02:07:40,720 --> 02:07:46,800
Speaker 1: both listeners suggestions. Also they were actually uh, they're actually

2412
02:07:46,880 --> 02:07:50,520
Speaker 1: the agency guy. It was a close friend of mine

2413
02:07:50,560 --> 02:07:54,480
Speaker 1: came to me and recommended him. Um, so yeah, they

2414
02:07:54,480 --> 02:07:58,000
Speaker 1: came to us through listeners suggestions. Guys, keep them coming.

2415
02:07:58,040 --> 02:08:01,320
Speaker 1: You guys have done a phenomenal job. And uh, I

2416
02:08:01,360 --> 02:08:03,480
Speaker 1: hope you enjoy next week. I hope you enjoy. Stephen,

2417
02:08:03,520 --> 02:08:06,720
Speaker 1: you will, and thank you for listening. As always, guys,

2418
02:08:06,760 --> 02:08:09,480
Speaker 1: take care, Yeah, see you next week. You've been listening

2419
02:08:09,560 --> 02:08:14,280
Speaker 1: to Self Rep Radio. New episodes up every Wednesday and Friday.

2420
02:08:15,080 --> 02:08:18,960
Speaker 1: Follow the show on Instagram and Twitter at self Rep Radio.