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Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.

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Speaker 2: In the last days, we learn how the murdered Kansas

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Speaker 2: moms were killed. One murdered Kansas mom suffering thirty stab wounds,

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Speaker 2: including additional cut wounds where she tried to defend herself,

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Speaker 2: according to the official autopsy. This autopsy showing shocking details

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Speaker 2: about how the Kansas moms wait, let me just start over.

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Speaker 2: Two Kansas moms, Veronica Butler and Jillian Kelly, ambushed as

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Speaker 2: they traveled together to a children's birthday party. In the

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Speaker 2: last days, devastating evidence emerges, am Nancy Grace, this is

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Speaker 2: Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us. Autopsy results

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Speaker 2: of the two murdered moms emerge and we learn one

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Speaker 2: murdered Canaansa's moms suffered thirty stab wounds and cut wounds

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Speaker 2: as she tried valiantly to defend herself. This according to

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Speaker 2: an official autopsy. The autopsy revealing shocking details about how

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Speaker 2: the Kansas moms were killed by this odd, peculiar religious gang.

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Speaker 2: Grizzly autopsy reports reveal how the two Kansas moms were

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Speaker 2: murdered on a road trip to Oklahoma on their way

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Speaker 2: to a birthday party, allegedly at the hands of a

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Speaker 2: brutal religious cult offshoot.

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Speaker 3: How did it all unfold? Listen?

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Speaker 4: The planned meeting place for Veronica Butler to pick up

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Speaker 4: her children was a closed gas station near the intersection

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Speaker 4: of Oklahoma State Highway ninety five and Rhodel. The area

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Speaker 4: is flat and desolate. There are no trees or homes nearby,

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Speaker 4: as well as no traffic cameras. This is where Melissa

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Speaker 4: and Joey Padilla, relatives of Veronica Butler, founder car after

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Speaker 4: the mom didn't arrive at a birthday party for one

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Speaker 4: of her children. The car was abandoned and there were

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Speaker 4: pools of blood nearby, so they called police. Investigators now

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Speaker 4: say they believe Butler and Jillian Kelly were lured to

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Speaker 4: the location, arriving around nine forty am. Besides the pools

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Speaker 4: of blood, officers found Butler's glasses on the ground near

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Speaker 4: a broken hammer. Kelly's purse was also found. Inside was

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Speaker 4: a gun magazine, but no weapon. Police say the women

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Speaker 4: were forced into another vehicle. The women's phone stopped sending

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Speaker 4: signals at nine forty two am.

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Speaker 2: Only that official court document seemingly reveal that this was

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Speaker 2: not their first attempt on the young mom, with me

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Speaker 2: at all start panel to make sense of what we

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Speaker 2: are learning. Stunning and chilling details emerging for a straight

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Speaker 2: out to Lauren Conlin, investigative journalist's host off the Outlawyer podcast, Lauren,

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Speaker 2: thank you for being with us. You've been on the

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Speaker 2: case from the very beginning. I can't believe what I

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Speaker 2: am seeing. And this affidavit a granny, a killer granny

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Speaker 2: suspect uses a bulldozer guns, Lauren, what's happening?

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Speaker 5: This is so tragic.

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Speaker 6: It came out in these affidavits that this was not

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Speaker 6: the first attempt to take Veronica Butler's life.

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Speaker 5: They were planning to do something in February.

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Speaker 6: Where an anvil would go through her windshield as this

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Speaker 6: was very common in the area.

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Speaker 5: They would fall off construction trucks, and.

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Speaker 2: They believed, Okay, please tell me you aren't somehow a

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Speaker 2: victim of Stockholm syndrome because anvilds don't just fall out

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Speaker 2: of the air into people's cars. I don't care where

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Speaker 2: it is, I mean, hold on right there. Cheryl McCollum

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Speaker 2: is joining me, founder director of the Cold Case Research Institute,

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Speaker 2: forensics expert. As a matter of fact, she's joining me

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Speaker 2: right now from her squad car. Cheryl, host of a

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Speaker 2: Hitney podcast, Zones seven. I know, maybe in crazy Granny's world,

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Speaker 2: an anvil falling from the sky or off a truck

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Speaker 2: into the young mom's car sounds reasonable.

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Speaker 3: It's not, Cheryl, It's not reasonable.

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Speaker 7: It's not reasonable.

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Speaker 8: You're talking about something that is so heavy there's no

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Speaker 8: way it's going to fall off a truck, and if

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Speaker 8: it does, it's simply gonna land three feet onto the pavement,

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Speaker 8: not up five to six feet through her windshield. So again,

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Speaker 8: when you're talking about plotting and planting a murder and

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Speaker 8: your baseline is wiley coyote, you've got problems from the

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Speaker 8: get go. This was asinine at best.

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Speaker 2: Can I ask you something, Cheryl McCollum. I know you're

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Speaker 2: comparing them to a and their plan to a wily

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Speaker 2: coyote plot. But these two women are dead, six children

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Speaker 2: between them, and I don't care what anybody says, including

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Speaker 2: a shrink that will tell me how wrong I am.

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Speaker 2: There is nothing that can replace your mother, nothing, amen,

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Speaker 2: And it may be a far fetched plan.

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Speaker 3: It may be, but these ladies are dead, not just

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Speaker 3: the young.

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Speaker 2: Mom who is her right there just going to throw a.

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Speaker 3: Birthday party for her children.

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Speaker 2: That's Veronica Butler, just twenty seven years old.

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Speaker 3: But then you've got the.

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Speaker 2: Other lady, the church secretary preacher wife. She's dead too,

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Speaker 2: Jilly and Kelly in her thirties, the prime of her life.

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Speaker 2: She was just doing a ride along to facilitate the

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Speaker 2: visitation of the pickup of mom's babies. Six children without

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Speaker 2: a mom. So I don't care how zany their plot is.

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Speaker 2: There were pools of blood left around this young mom's

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Speaker 2: car because in my mind of.

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Speaker 3: Killer Granny may she wrought in hell.

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Speaker 2: And let me point out, as Cally Hyman will tell

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Speaker 2: me pretty quickly, they're innocent until proven guilty, and you

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Speaker 2: can all quit telling me that on Twitter. I know that,

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Speaker 2: I know they're not guilty yet, but I guarantee you

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Speaker 2: they will be the cause of a track a mile wide?

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Speaker 2: Isn't that riot? Lauren Collin a mile wide? Tell me

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Speaker 2: about the evidence we're learning out of this warrant right here?

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Speaker 5: Okay, So this is crazy.

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Speaker 6: So first and foremost, they got a search warrant on

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Speaker 6: I believe it was March thirty first for Timpany Adams's phone,

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Speaker 6: So they searched on her phone and they find searches

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Speaker 6: that read taser pain level, where to buy a gun

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Speaker 6: at different gunshops in the area, and then where to

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Speaker 6: get prepaid cell phones, and then how to get someone

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Speaker 6: out of their house.

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Speaker 5: Now in the meantime, my boyfriend.

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Speaker 2: Lee, you know what, you're just like spouting all this

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Speaker 2: damn information like it's a fire hydrant. Lauren Comlin, too much,

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Speaker 2: too fast. Okay, I'm drinking from the fire hydrant here,

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Speaker 2: he said, Look the pain level of a taser. That

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Speaker 2: was the mother in law's to say, Google search.

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Speaker 3: She searched, the pay level of a taser?

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Speaker 5: She did, she searched.

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Speaker 2: Okay, I got to go now to an eminent guest

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Speaker 2: joining me, doctor Kendall Crowns. He is the chief medical

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Speaker 2: examiner in Terrance County. That's Fort Worth near Dallas, Lecturer University,

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Speaker 2: Texan Christian University Medical School, and he is joining us

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Speaker 2: right now from his office at the Medical Examiners.

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Speaker 3: Doctor Crowns, thank you for being with us.

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Speaker 2: I had a good friend at CNN who actually tasered himself,

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Speaker 2: and a good friend at Court TV that followed up

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Speaker 2: on it to make sure it really hurt. God rest

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Speaker 2: his soul. Michael Christian. So, doctor Kindle Crown, tell me

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Speaker 2: how a taser works, and this is what was the plan.

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Speaker 2: This is the plan to use on two unarmed moms

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Speaker 2: a taser. How does it work and how badly does

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Speaker 2: it hurt? Doctor crowns.

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Speaker 9: So, conductive electronic devices like taser work by injecting prongs

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Speaker 9: into your skin and then using these skins moisture to

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Speaker 9: conduct electricity across it and then send a large amount

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Speaker 9: of electricity into your body, basically shocking you. The shock

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Speaker 9: itself causes a tremendous amount of pain, causes you to

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Speaker 9: spasm and then collapse.

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Speaker 2: See that's why I have to work with you so

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Speaker 2: much before I could put you on the stand. Conductive

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Speaker 2: electronic device? What are you talking about? Can you dumb

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Speaker 2: me down for me? Please just say it? Regular people

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Speaker 2: talk how a taser works and the amount of pain.

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Speaker 3: What can we.

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Speaker 9: Compare it to conductive electronic devices? Is what a taser is?

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Speaker 9: Taser themselves prefer you call it a conductive electronic device

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Speaker 9: because not all conductive electronic devices are tasers. It's like

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Speaker 9: a xerox machine, is a copier, etc. So it is

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Speaker 9: basically electricity being forced into your body. High amounts of electricity.

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Speaker 9: It'd be like you putting a fork into a wall socket.

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Speaker 9: You get the same kind of experience from that, except

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Speaker 9: the wall socket doesn't cause as much electricity to go

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Speaker 9: through you as a taser does.

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Speaker 2: As a general rule, a taser start with the baseline

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Speaker 2: a fifty thousand volts of electricity. Fifty thousand volts of electricity,

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Speaker 2: what does that mean, doctor Kendall Crowns.

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Speaker 9: That's the high amount of electricity. It's higher than basically

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Speaker 9: your standard current in your house. So it's a large

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Speaker 9: amount of electricity being put into your body all at once.

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Speaker 3: Just think about it.

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Speaker 2: Think about it, Cheryl McCollum, This evil mother in law

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Speaker 2: was prepared to use fifty thousand vaults of electricity minimum

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Speaker 2: on the victims, in this case, two unarmed women. She

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Speaker 2: didn't care if she caused that amount of pain.

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Speaker 8: But let's talk even more basic in the beginning, you've

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Speaker 8: got four people and two women.

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Speaker 7: It doesn't take a taser to control them.

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Speaker 8: If you ambushed two unsuspecting victims with four people, you're

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Speaker 8: going to be able to control them fairly easily. I

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Speaker 8: believe that the stun gun was for.

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Speaker 1: Torture crime stories with Nancy Grace.

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Speaker 2: According to the autopsies from the State Medical Examiner doctor

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Speaker 2: Celia Cobb, Kelly suffered nine stab wounds and seven cuts

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Speaker 2: to her back and seven cuts to the back of

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Speaker 2: her neck and head. She also suffered a fractured vertebra

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Speaker 2: and damaged spinal cord when she was killed, stun gun

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Speaker 2: marks on her neck and cuts to her hand indicating

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Speaker 2: she tried to defend herself. Her friend, twenty seven year

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Speaker 2: old Veronica Butler, tragically killed in a very similar manner.

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Speaker 2: Both women found in quote pools of blood. Veronica suffered

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Speaker 2: a total of thirty sharp force injuries, including sliced fingers,

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Speaker 2: consistent with attempting to defend herself. That's straight out of

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Speaker 2: the autopsy report, and she was also found with stun

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Speaker 2: gun marks to the back of her neck. The autopsies

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Speaker 2: indicate both women were believed to have been killed before

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Speaker 2: they were placed in a deep chest freezer. The freezer

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Speaker 2: found under concrete slab and buried eight feet below the surface.

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Speaker 2: Kelly hymen, I mean this gang, which they call themselves

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Speaker 2: God's Misfits, have left a trail a mile wide. The

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Speaker 2: State's gonna have a field day with this.

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Speaker 10: This is a horrible story for these young kids to

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Speaker 10: lose their mother. And we always when we look at

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Speaker 10: things as why do people do this? What was their

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Speaker 10: motive behind this? What was their reacity behind this? That's key,

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Speaker 10: And allegedly they were in some big family dispute, bitter

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Speaker 10: dispute that left these beautiful kids without a month. Ultimately, Nancy,

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Speaker 10: as you said, you are innocent until proven guilty, but

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Speaker 10: there is allegedly a lot of evidence coming out that's

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Speaker 10: going to make a strong case for the state.

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Speaker 2: I need to bring up the innocent until proving guilty part.

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Speaker 1: What more do we know?

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Speaker 2: Guys straight out to Lauren Colin guns, bulldozers, tasers, stun guns.

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Speaker 3: What more do we know?

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Speaker 2: Lauren? And all of this is to take out two innocent,

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Speaker 2: unarmed mothers.

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Speaker 5: Yes, let me stop you. There have been no guns found,

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Speaker 5: just stun guns.

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Speaker 6: So this is actually really interesting and I'm a bit confused.

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Speaker 5: I came across I think it was yesterday or the

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Speaker 5: day before.

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Speaker 6: It was on an outleok called the Oklahoma and you

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Speaker 6: have to pay for a lot of these articles. I

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Speaker 6: did not pay, but I did find a little snippet

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Speaker 6: where the medical examiner said I don't believe they were

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Speaker 6: a shot.

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Speaker 5: And I'm going through all.

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Speaker 6: Of these affidavits, the arrest affidavits, all the probable cause,

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Speaker 6: and I.

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Speaker 5: Don't see any guns.

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Speaker 6: And as Dave Max said, you know, Jillian Kelly had

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Speaker 6: a pistol magazine in her purse, but there were no guns.

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Speaker 6: So all we have here is burner phones and stun guns.

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Speaker 5: And then we have the equipment that I was going

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Speaker 5: to get to.

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Speaker 6: So Tad Cullum, Tiffany's boyfriend, he rented some land about

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Speaker 6: eight miles away from where their vehicle was initially found

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Speaker 6: Veronica and Gillian's, and he rented equipment like bulldozers and

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Speaker 6: all these these names that my son would know skid

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Speaker 6: steers could be much better than than I am at this.

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Speaker 6: And he ends up digging a hole in this property

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Speaker 6: and then covering it with hay. And this area is

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Speaker 6: the last place where the women's phones were actually pinged

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Speaker 6: this area, and the property owner, I believe his name

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Speaker 6: is Jamie Beasley, he had no idea.

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Speaker 5: What was going on. So when authorities, you.

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Speaker 6: Know, send all those tru us to get the women

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Speaker 6: to get the bodies. Once they get the timp, he's

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Speaker 6: crying He's like, oh my gosh, I had no idea

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Speaker 6: and just in complete and utter.

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Speaker 3: Shocks and joining me.

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Speaker 2: Cheryl McCollum, Founder director, Cold Case Research Institute and forensics expert. Cheryl,

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Speaker 2: I can see all the digital fingerprint footprint adding up,

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Speaker 2: placing the moms at this location and coincidentally the same

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Speaker 2: location where the burner phones were turned off. But I

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Speaker 2: want to talk about the mag the magazine, the gun

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Speaker 2: magazine found in one of the victims purses.

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Speaker 3: There's no indication that either of the victims had a gun.

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Speaker 2: And when I say a magazine, I'm talking about a

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Speaker 2: mag not a clip. A mag feeds rounds into the

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Speaker 2: gun chamber as it's being fired. So what do you

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Speaker 2: make of a mag being found not verified?

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Speaker 8: A lot of information. They're playing this close to the vent,

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Speaker 8: which they should. But you know, let's say you are

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Speaker 8: going with somebody to beat you know, ex family members

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Speaker 8: that they've been fighting with for nine years. Maybe somebody

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Speaker 8: gave her something to you know, protect herself. We don't

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Speaker 8: know if this was her, you know, potential particle weapon

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Speaker 8: or perpetrate, we don't know yet.

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Speaker 7: And you know, all we do know.

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Speaker 8: Is there pools of blood at the seat broken hammer,

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Speaker 8: So was somebody shot?

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Speaker 7: Was somebody hitting the head, blood force trauma? We don't

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Speaker 7: know yet.

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Speaker 3: Guys. We are learning that a minor.

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Speaker 2: We believe it to be a teen girl, has turned informant.

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Speaker 2: Take a listen to this.

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Speaker 11: The teenager told police that she had heard conversation among

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Speaker 11: the adults that Adam's grandchildren were at risk when they

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Speaker 11: were with Butler. She told investigators that Adams had provided

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Speaker 11: burner phones so that personal devices were not needed to communicate.

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Speaker 11: The girl said she had seen two of the phones

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Speaker 11: charging on her mother's nightstand. The day before the murders.

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Speaker 11: Adam's boyfriend, Column forty three, had asked the owner of

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Speaker 11: the property he rented if he could do some work

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Speaker 11: there with his kids. Seer a kind of bulldozer. According

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Speaker 11: to the owner's conversation with police, Colum reportedly said he

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Speaker 11: wanted to cut down a tree, remove a stump, and

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Speaker 11: bury some concrete. The teen said she heard that her

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Speaker 11: mother and stepfather block the road, diverting the women to

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Speaker 11: where the others were waiting. When asked why Kelly had

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Speaker 11: to die, her mother reportedly said because Kelly supported Butler.

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Speaker 11: She wasn't innocent. The child asked Cora twombly if they

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Speaker 11: had put the bodies in a well. She was told

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Speaker 11: something like.

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Speaker 2: That, Wow, it's always difficult to put a child on

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Speaker 2: the stand during a jury trial, but.

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Speaker 3: Sometimes you have to.

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Speaker 2: This teen girl revealing so much of what was going

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Speaker 2: on in the home before the murders, in the home

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Speaker 2: of the suspects. Straight back out to Lauren Colin, joining

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Speaker 2: US investigative journalist and host of The Outlier. So, a

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Speaker 2: skid steer is a kind of bulldozer. Where were the

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Speaker 2: two moms bodies found?

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Speaker 6: So they were found by a dam in that rented

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Speaker 6: area of the property. So I'm assuming that they were

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Speaker 6: somewhat covered by this hay and the fresh dirt. I

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Speaker 6: believe they called it the soil, and they were easy

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Speaker 6: to find. I also I want to point something out

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Speaker 6: as well. Nancy her the witness.

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Speaker 3: Cora told her or.

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Speaker 6: Her daughter, whoever the witness was, that things didn't go

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Speaker 6: according to plan.

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Speaker 5: This mission did not go according to plan.

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Speaker 6: So I don't know exactly what that means, but I

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Speaker 6: have a hunch it has something to do with a

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Speaker 6: possible suspect that hasn't been arrested. But that's just mine.

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Speaker 3: Joining me right now.

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Speaker 2: Former US Marshall Service International Investigations Branch, author of Flying

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Speaker 2: Solo on Amazon. IRV Brandt joining US Irvbrandt. Did you

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Speaker 2: hear what Lauren Colin just said? And I've read it

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Speaker 2: in the official court docs that this gang God's misfits.

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Speaker 3: Said they were on a mission.

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Speaker 2: They call murdering these two young moms a mission?

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Speaker 3: What a mission from Hell?

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Speaker 12: That's exactly what it was, Nancy. These people are obviously deranged.

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Speaker 12: They're not criminal masterminds. They had a previous murder plan

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Speaker 12: that didn't come, didn't pan out. Then they go into

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Speaker 12: this elaborate plan using stun guns and a bulldozer, but

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Speaker 12: they leave a trail a mile wide for police investigators

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Speaker 12: to follow. Nancy, I've never seen anything like this. They

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Speaker 12: might as well have written out a confession and signed

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Speaker 12: it and sent it to the police.

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Speaker 2: Soon after the bodies were found, police arrested Butler's children's

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Speaker 2: paternal grandmother, Tiffany Adams while that's a mother in law

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Speaker 2: from Hell, along with her boyfriend Tad Cullum, alongside Cole

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Speaker 2: Twombly and Cora Twombly, all of.

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Speaker 3: Them charged with murder.

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Speaker 2: But in the last days this autopsy speaks volumes. The

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Speaker 2: full autopsy report for the second Kansas mom buried in

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Speaker 2: a freezer and a cow pasture after being reported missing

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Speaker 2: on a.

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Speaker 3: Road trip just released.

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Speaker 2: Much of the medical examiner's deductions is found in this

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Speaker 2: phrase quote. Given the extent of misus Butler's injuries, including

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Speaker 2: defects to both of her internal jugular veins with resultant

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Speaker 2: exagination bleeding out, it is my opinion her death was

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Speaker 2: very quick and likely occurred before she was placed inside

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Speaker 2: the freezer and buried. The autopsy goes on to say, quote.

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Speaker 2: This opinion is additionally supported by the fact her body

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Speaker 2: appeared to have remained exactly how it was placed inside

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Speaker 2: the freezer. Okay, what does that mean? Was her body

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Speaker 2: folded or crumpled up? The autopsy on Veronica was released

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Speaker 2: about two weeks after the report on Jillian and Kelly,

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Speaker 2: the other mom missing on the road trip. That report

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Speaker 2: revealed even more details about her death. What more do

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Speaker 2: we know about that fateful day and the people now

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Speaker 2: charged with murder? Earlier I think we heard Cheryl McCollum

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Speaker 2: compared it to Wiley Coyote their plot, and I admonished

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Speaker 2: her because we've got two dead moms. But actually it

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Speaker 2: does sound like something out of the Apple Dump Gang, except.

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Speaker 3: Nobody ever died in those movies.

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Speaker 2: Where they've been watching way too many movies with the

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Speaker 2: burner phones and the rendezvous point and the bull I mean,

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Speaker 2: how much more obvious can it be or a brand

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Speaker 2: than to rent a bulldozer or to bring over your bulldozer, Nancy.

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Speaker 12: I mean, I can't even give you a reasonable explanation

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Speaker 12: for their line of thinking of This is just not

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Speaker 12: it's it's like Cheryl Max said, it's something out of

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Speaker 12: a cartoon trying to drop an acme anvil on their head.

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Speaker 12: I don't know where these people came up with their

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Speaker 12: ideas when they started researching it online. That amounts to,

359
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Speaker 12: you know, someone saying well I want to poison someone,

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Speaker 12: then doing it, you know, researching it on their computer,

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Speaker 12: then ordering poison off an Amazon to carry out the murder.

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Speaker 12: I can't give you an explanation, Nancy, I'm sorry.

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Speaker 4: The team told police that she was told that her

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Speaker 4: mother and stepfather would be gone that Saturday. When the

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Speaker 4: team woke up, she was told they were going to

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Speaker 4: be on a mission, and as she was told, the

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Speaker 4: Twombleys were not home when she woke up around ten am.

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Speaker 1: She says.

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Speaker 4: The couple came back around noon in their pickup and

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Speaker 4: a flatbed pickup owned by a relative. The teen says

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Speaker 4: she was told to clean the interior of the Chevrolet pickup.

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Speaker 4: When she asked what had happened, she was told things

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Speaker 4: had not gone as plan, but that they would not

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Speaker 4: have to worry about Butler again. At the same time

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Speaker 4: that the twembles arrived home, Tiffany Adams went to pick

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Speaker 4: up her grandchildren at the home of the other couple

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Speaker 4: who hosted God's Misfits meetings.

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Speaker 2: The affidavit said, joining me an all star panel, Cheryl McCollum,

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Speaker 2: did you hear that they used their own vehicle, They

380
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Speaker 2: used their own computer, They used their own cell phones

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Speaker 2: to send text message, They spoke in front of witnesses

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Speaker 2: again for four people.

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Speaker 8: To plot and plan. They made such severe mistake. I

384
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Speaker 8: agree with her. They might as well have just done

385
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Speaker 8: a confession from the get go, because it was obvious

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Speaker 8: who did it.

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Speaker 7: You and I talked today about.

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Speaker 8: You know, the victims left a town of twelve hundred

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Speaker 8: people to go to a town of two hundred and

390
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Speaker 8: eighty one people. Your suspect pool was people right off

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Speaker 8: the bat.

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Speaker 2: According to the witness that has emerged, this teen girl

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Speaker 2: was told the mother, her I guess boyfriend, and two

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Speaker 2: others who claimed to be quote God's Misfits were on

395
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Speaker 2: a quote mission I'm reading from the affidavit, they were

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Speaker 2: going to be on a mission.

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Speaker 3: She woke up around ten am. They all came back

398
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Speaker 3: around noon.

399
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Speaker 2: The defendants in a pickup and a flatbed owned by

400
00:24:52,200 --> 00:24:56,040
Speaker 2: a relative, and she, the teen girl, was told to

401
00:24:56,119 --> 00:24:59,320
Speaker 2: claim the interior of the Chevrolet pickup.

402
00:24:59,520 --> 00:25:00,639
Speaker 3: What is that mean to me?

403
00:25:01,080 --> 00:25:04,320
Speaker 2: That means that at least one of these mothers was

404
00:25:04,359 --> 00:25:09,120
Speaker 2: transported to a burial site in the Chevy pickup. When

405
00:25:09,119 --> 00:25:12,160
Speaker 2: the girl asked what happened, she was told things had

406
00:25:12,280 --> 00:25:15,520
Speaker 2: quote not gone as planned, but they would never have

407
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Speaker 2: to worry about Butler, that being twenty seven year old

408
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Speaker 2: mom Veronica Butler. Again, at the same time, Tiffany Adams

409
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Speaker 2: goes to pick up the grandchildren elsewhere another couple's home

410
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Speaker 2: who hosted God's Misfits meetings.

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Speaker 3: What does that say to me? That tells me?

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Speaker 2: Out to Kelly Hyman, a veteran trial lawyer, that there

413
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Speaker 2: are other people, the ones that were babysitting the children

414
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Speaker 2: during all of this, that knew about the plan, and

415
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Speaker 2: there are going to be states witnesses along with this

416
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Speaker 2: teen girl. As if I don't have enough information and

417
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Speaker 2: enough evidence anyway, now, these babysitters, the other God's misfits,

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Speaker 2: they're going to be witnesses or they could always be

419
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Speaker 2: charged for aiding and a betting, and I don't think

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Speaker 2: they want to go to the pen for that.

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Speaker 3: You bring up a really good point.

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Speaker 10: Yes, So if people overheard this, they could potentially be

423
00:26:13,600 --> 00:26:15,920
Speaker 10: the state's witness, and what that means is they will

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Speaker 10: testify in the trial of saying what they've heard or

425
00:26:19,720 --> 00:26:23,479
Speaker 10: potentially if they could potentially be charged with aiding and

426
00:26:23,560 --> 00:26:26,520
Speaker 10: a betting and assisting in this in fact, if they don't,

427
00:26:27,119 --> 00:26:31,000
Speaker 10: if they helped assist with this murder and stuff like that.

428
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Speaker 10: So it'll be interesting to see what transpires in the

429
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Speaker 10: coming next days and who turns as a state witness

430
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Speaker 10: or potentially are there going to be additional charges for

431
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Speaker 10: people who overheard stuff and were potentially involved in this

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Speaker 10: as well.

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Speaker 2: Back to doctor Kendall Crown's joining us out of Charrett County,

434
00:26:47,600 --> 00:26:50,920
Speaker 2: fort were from the Medical Examiner's office. Dr Crown's again,

435
00:26:50,960 --> 00:26:54,120
Speaker 2: thank you for being with us. We're trying to determine

436
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Speaker 2: whether the manner of death was shooting or stabbing.

437
00:27:00,240 --> 00:27:01,960
Speaker 3: I know the bodies had been.

438
00:27:02,320 --> 00:27:08,040
Speaker 2: Buried haphazardly, would you be able to tell and how

439
00:27:08,480 --> 00:27:09,840
Speaker 2: the manner and cause of death?

440
00:27:10,119 --> 00:27:12,280
Speaker 9: Certainly you'd be able to determine the cause of death

441
00:27:12,359 --> 00:27:15,280
Speaker 9: based on the injury patterns, even though they had been buried.

442
00:27:15,800 --> 00:27:20,440
Speaker 9: It won't take away the damage to the body, especially

443
00:27:20,480 --> 00:27:23,760
Speaker 9: to the skeletal system. Kind and in the manner of

444
00:27:23,760 --> 00:27:26,359
Speaker 9: death would be fairly easy. The fact that they've been

445
00:27:26,400 --> 00:27:30,199
Speaker 9: buried out in the middle of nowhere, They're obviously been killed,

446
00:27:30,640 --> 00:27:34,159
Speaker 9: so it's going to be a homicide. So determining between

447
00:27:34,280 --> 00:27:37,720
Speaker 9: gunshot wounds, stabbings or beatings, it would just be looking

448
00:27:37,720 --> 00:27:40,520
Speaker 9: at the injury patterns on the body based on the

449
00:27:40,520 --> 00:27:44,240
Speaker 9: information you already had. Pools of blood, broken hammer. The

450
00:27:44,320 --> 00:27:46,639
Speaker 9: fact that they were talking about using an anvil in

451
00:27:46,680 --> 00:27:49,960
Speaker 9: the first place makes me feel like they've probably beaten

452
00:27:50,000 --> 00:27:53,600
Speaker 9: these individuals to death using a hammer after they stunned them.

453
00:27:53,680 --> 00:27:57,520
Speaker 2: Okay, you know, doctor Kimmel Crowns, I understand what you're

454
00:27:57,560 --> 00:28:02,640
Speaker 2: saying now there's a very strong potential of the two

455
00:28:02,760 --> 00:28:06,160
Speaker 2: victims being beaten dead with a hammer.

456
00:28:06,200 --> 00:28:07,480
Speaker 3: And why do you say.

457
00:28:07,240 --> 00:28:10,160
Speaker 9: That, Because there's a broken hammer at the scene, there's

458
00:28:10,200 --> 00:28:13,840
Speaker 9: pools of blood, and they had been talking about doing

459
00:28:13,920 --> 00:28:16,480
Speaker 9: blunt force trauma to the individuals in the first place,

460
00:28:16,560 --> 00:28:19,360
Speaker 9: using an handvile, So it doesn't sound like they had

461
00:28:19,400 --> 00:28:21,840
Speaker 9: planned to use guns all along. That they kind of

462
00:28:21,920 --> 00:28:25,000
Speaker 9: planned to use blunt force trauma. So it makes me

463
00:28:25,080 --> 00:28:27,359
Speaker 9: think that they use the stun guns to kind of

464
00:28:27,400 --> 00:28:30,040
Speaker 9: subdue them and then just beat them to death with

465
00:28:30,080 --> 00:28:30,920
Speaker 9: a hammer.

466
00:28:30,640 --> 00:28:32,240
Speaker 3: You know, Doctor Kendall Crowns.

467
00:28:33,119 --> 00:28:36,920
Speaker 2: I was thinking gun because of the amount of blood

468
00:28:37,000 --> 00:28:42,400
Speaker 2: pools of blood there. And I attributed the hammer handle

469
00:28:42,720 --> 00:28:48,840
Speaker 2: to breaking the windshield because a witness stated she.

470
00:28:48,920 --> 00:28:51,440
Speaker 3: Had driven by there's around ten am.

471
00:28:51,720 --> 00:28:55,120
Speaker 2: The mom's left for their journey of forty five minute

472
00:28:55,160 --> 00:29:00,680
Speaker 2: drive around nine am, and at ten am email witness

473
00:29:00,720 --> 00:29:04,920
Speaker 2: drives by and sees their vehicle and sees a window

474
00:29:05,320 --> 00:29:10,040
Speaker 2: on the driver's side bust it out. Now, I attributed

475
00:29:10,480 --> 00:29:15,200
Speaker 2: the discovery of the hammer handle to breaking out the window,

476
00:29:15,280 --> 00:29:19,840
Speaker 2: but your theory makes a lot more sense to me. Plus,

477
00:29:19,880 --> 00:29:24,520
Speaker 2: I'm not hearing about any guns being registered to the defendants,

478
00:29:24,680 --> 00:29:28,000
Speaker 2: although I find that really hard to believe. But that said,

479
00:29:28,040 --> 00:29:29,760
Speaker 2: what about it, Cheryl McCollum.

480
00:29:29,360 --> 00:29:31,360
Speaker 8: As to why the glasses will be on the ground

481
00:29:32,040 --> 00:29:35,560
Speaker 8: large pools of blood. Nobody in the vicinity heard a

482
00:29:35,600 --> 00:29:39,160
Speaker 8: gunshot it also, would you know? To me, goes back

483
00:29:39,200 --> 00:29:44,280
Speaker 8: to my theory. They were tortured. This was anger. She

484
00:29:44,360 --> 00:29:49,240
Speaker 8: didn't look up stunn gum. She looked up the pain level.

485
00:29:49,560 --> 00:29:53,280
Speaker 8: This was very personal. They have been fighting for almost

486
00:29:53,320 --> 00:29:58,320
Speaker 8: a decade over those children and they were attacked. I'm

487
00:29:58,320 --> 00:30:02,400
Speaker 8: going to say it again, didn't take four people. This

488
00:30:02,760 --> 00:30:05,600
Speaker 8: was a deliberate gang.

489
00:30:05,960 --> 00:30:12,920
Speaker 2: Ambush, killer granny suspects, bloody ambush on two unarmed Kansas

490
00:30:13,040 --> 00:30:16,560
Speaker 2: moms on their way to a children's birthday party, and

491
00:30:16,600 --> 00:30:22,360
Speaker 2: they apparently used tasers, burner phones, even a bulldozer to

492
00:30:22,440 --> 00:30:23,480
Speaker 2: affect their plan.

493
00:30:24,040 --> 00:30:26,520
Speaker 3: Joining me an all star panel, you were just hearing,

494
00:30:26,600 --> 00:30:27,480
Speaker 3: Cheryl McCollum.

495
00:30:27,960 --> 00:30:31,120
Speaker 2: But now to Lauren Conlin, investigative journalists, host of the

496
00:30:31,160 --> 00:30:34,200
Speaker 2: Outlier podcast. I want to hear what you have to

497
00:30:34,240 --> 00:30:38,840
Speaker 2: say about the use of the hammer as the murder weapon.

498
00:30:39,040 --> 00:30:44,160
Speaker 2: But also I found something buried in the affidavit and

499
00:30:44,240 --> 00:30:46,320
Speaker 2: I found this really interesting. I want everybody on the

500
00:30:46,320 --> 00:30:50,600
Speaker 2: panel to jump in. We find out that three prepaid

501
00:30:50,680 --> 00:30:55,080
Speaker 2: cellular phones were purchased from Walmart in Oklahoma back on

502
00:30:55,200 --> 00:31:00,480
Speaker 2: feb thirteen. That's how long they've been planning this since thirteen.

503
00:31:01,320 --> 00:31:04,120
Speaker 2: This is what I found really interesting. All three of

504
00:31:04,200 --> 00:31:10,320
Speaker 2: the burner phones were powered on and access cellular network

505
00:31:10,400 --> 00:31:19,400
Speaker 2: for the first time at Colum's residence, so Ellie law

506
00:31:19,480 --> 00:31:25,200
Speaker 2: enforcement can identify the first time these idiots turned on

507
00:31:25,280 --> 00:31:28,880
Speaker 2: the burner phone is basically inside.

508
00:31:28,400 --> 00:31:29,240
Speaker 3: Their own home.

509
00:31:30,480 --> 00:31:31,160
Speaker 1: Ding dong.

510
00:31:31,720 --> 00:31:35,480
Speaker 2: They couldn't figure out that they are leaving a digital trail.

511
00:31:35,520 --> 00:31:39,600
Speaker 2: They're turning on the cellular phones that were used to

512
00:31:40,000 --> 00:31:42,280
Speaker 2: orchestrate this double murder.

513
00:31:42,640 --> 00:31:45,320
Speaker 3: They turn it on for the first time in or

514
00:31:45,360 --> 00:31:47,520
Speaker 3: near their own home.

515
00:31:48,280 --> 00:31:51,720
Speaker 2: I mean they need to go back and watch Ocean's

516
00:31:51,840 --> 00:31:53,880
Speaker 2: eleven all over again.

517
00:31:54,680 --> 00:31:57,040
Speaker 3: Lauren Colin, you were jumping in. What were you saying?

518
00:31:57,160 --> 00:32:00,160
Speaker 6: Well, I can provide some context to this as well,

519
00:32:00,200 --> 00:32:04,720
Speaker 6: because while they appear to be extremely dumb criminals, obviously,

520
00:32:05,040 --> 00:32:08,280
Speaker 6: I think there's an element to this, right, the farm element.

521
00:32:08,400 --> 00:32:11,400
Speaker 6: I don't think that it's out of the ordinary that

522
00:32:11,520 --> 00:32:14,920
Speaker 6: he would rent farm equipment or dig holes xyz.

523
00:32:15,600 --> 00:32:18,760
Speaker 5: But using your own cell phones.

524
00:32:18,440 --> 00:32:21,160
Speaker 6: And turning these cell phones, these burner phones on at

525
00:32:21,200 --> 00:32:24,640
Speaker 6: your own house. This goes to the fact that Tiffany

526
00:32:24,720 --> 00:32:26,400
Speaker 6: Adams is actually.

527
00:32:26,280 --> 00:32:28,000
Speaker 5: Very connected in that town.

528
00:32:28,560 --> 00:32:33,040
Speaker 6: She runs and is responsible for the Simmern County GOP.

529
00:32:33,520 --> 00:32:36,760
Speaker 6: She's their chair, she was a former school board chair.

530
00:32:36,800 --> 00:32:39,960
Speaker 6: She knows the sheriff's office. I mean, I think there

531
00:32:40,000 --> 00:32:41,800
Speaker 6: was a quote where she had said, you know, I

532
00:32:42,000 --> 00:32:46,320
Speaker 6: know the path the judge takes to work. She knows everybody,

533
00:32:46,360 --> 00:32:49,560
Speaker 6: and I believe that she thinks that she is untouchable

534
00:32:49,640 --> 00:32:53,400
Speaker 6: and people don't necessarily want to talk. The one judge

535
00:32:53,680 --> 00:32:56,280
Speaker 6: that did speak, he was forced to resign the next day.

536
00:32:56,640 --> 00:32:58,320
Speaker 5: So it's really interesting.

537
00:32:58,360 --> 00:33:01,680
Speaker 6: And I think that this woman, and in particular Tiffany Adams,

538
00:33:01,800 --> 00:33:04,160
Speaker 6: she holds a type of power that we are just

539
00:33:04,280 --> 00:33:05,280
Speaker 6: going to be learning about.

540
00:33:05,480 --> 00:33:08,640
Speaker 3: Well you know what, that calls for a change of venue.

541
00:33:09,360 --> 00:33:11,280
Speaker 3: That won't be hard. You know, I'm.

542
00:33:11,160 --> 00:33:15,440
Speaker 2: Still looking very carefully at this, Amadavid, and I want

543
00:33:15,440 --> 00:33:16,760
Speaker 2: everybody to weigh in on this.

544
00:33:17,320 --> 00:33:23,040
Speaker 13: The whole dug about two hundred yards below of dam

545
00:33:23,520 --> 00:33:26,720
Speaker 13: fell back in and covered with Hey, I mean you

546
00:33:26,720 --> 00:33:27,840
Speaker 13: could probably.

547
00:33:27,480 --> 00:33:31,120
Speaker 2: See that with a drive over from a helicopter.

548
00:33:31,240 --> 00:33:34,479
Speaker 3: For Pete's sake. Did they not think cops are going

549
00:33:34,520 --> 00:33:37,200
Speaker 3: to find that? I mean, urv Brandt.

550
00:33:37,680 --> 00:33:43,360
Speaker 2: I've seen many many homicides. I've investigated many, tried many,

551
00:33:43,520 --> 00:33:44,320
Speaker 2: covered many.

552
00:33:44,920 --> 00:33:47,320
Speaker 3: But this is a.

553
00:33:46,720 --> 00:33:49,600
Speaker 2: Plethora, a Pandora's box of evidence.

554
00:33:50,080 --> 00:33:53,320
Speaker 12: Nancy, that's exactly right, Like you, I've been doing this

555
00:33:54,080 --> 00:33:59,520
Speaker 12: all my adult life, and I have never seen a

556
00:33:59,600 --> 00:34:03,680
Speaker 12: case probably easier to solve, easier to prove.

557
00:34:05,640 --> 00:34:06,720
Speaker 3: When we take it to.

558
00:34:06,720 --> 00:34:12,720
Speaker 12: You, as the prosecuting attorney, you'd look at us and say,

559
00:34:13,000 --> 00:34:17,480
Speaker 12: you've got to be kidding me. You know, I can't

560
00:34:17,520 --> 00:34:21,760
Speaker 12: believe this. Whereas did they videotape themselves committing the crime?

561
00:34:21,840 --> 00:34:24,600
Speaker 12: Did they post it on social media? They did just

562
00:34:24,680 --> 00:34:28,680
Speaker 12: about everything else imaginable, you know, to say they did it,

563
00:34:29,800 --> 00:34:32,800
Speaker 12: the confessions have got to be forthcoming. I would imagine

564
00:34:33,280 --> 00:34:42,839
Speaker 12: to the police crime stories with Nancy Grace.

565
00:34:47,040 --> 00:34:50,040
Speaker 2: A damning second autopsy released in the case of two

566
00:34:50,160 --> 00:34:53,800
Speaker 2: Kansas moms who are kidnapped and murdered on their way

567
00:34:54,200 --> 00:34:58,120
Speaker 2: to a children's birthday party. Aside from the autopsy, what

568
00:34:58,400 --> 00:35:00,759
Speaker 2: more do we know? I want you to take a

569
00:35:00,800 --> 00:35:01,719
Speaker 2: listen to this.

570
00:35:02,000 --> 00:35:06,360
Speaker 11: The motive, according to investigators, is custody of Butler's two children,

571
00:35:06,680 --> 00:35:09,720
Speaker 11: a custody battle has gone on for more than five years.

572
00:35:10,080 --> 00:35:14,480
Speaker 11: Father wrangler Rickman, Tiffany Adams's son, was awarded custody of

573
00:35:14,520 --> 00:35:17,560
Speaker 11: the children, but Rickman was confirmed to be in a

574
00:35:17,600 --> 00:35:22,000
Speaker 11: rehabilitation facility in Oklahoma City at the time of the murders.

575
00:35:22,280 --> 00:35:26,840
Speaker 11: For Veronica, Butler's custody arrangement allowed her supervised visitation with

576
00:35:26,960 --> 00:35:31,560
Speaker 11: her children every Saturday, and reportedly, according to Butler's attorney,

577
00:35:31,880 --> 00:35:35,960
Speaker 11: she was likely to be granted unsupervised visitation during an

578
00:35:36,040 --> 00:35:40,920
Speaker 11: upcoming hearing the Affadavid states that Adams vehemently opposed this

579
00:35:41,480 --> 00:35:44,720
Speaker 11: and went to great links to plan and purchase items

580
00:35:44,800 --> 00:35:49,880
Speaker 11: used in Butler and Kelly's murders. It continues, Adam, Cullum, Cole,

581
00:35:50,000 --> 00:35:53,840
Speaker 11: and Cora were willing to kidnap and murder two victims

582
00:35:54,160 --> 00:35:56,480
Speaker 11: to limit visitation for Butler.

583
00:35:56,760 --> 00:35:59,120
Speaker 2: And isn't she you guys who are talking about Adams

584
00:35:59,160 --> 00:36:03,120
Speaker 2: are talking about Tiffany Michelle Adams, age fifty four, who

585
00:36:03,400 --> 00:36:08,400
Speaker 2: is the alleged evil mother in law her who plotted this.

586
00:36:08,520 --> 00:36:11,480
Speaker 2: It seems to think that she's the political boss of

587
00:36:11,520 --> 00:36:14,440
Speaker 2: the county. I got needs for her political boss or

588
00:36:14,560 --> 00:36:19,839
Speaker 2: no she's going down because of her own actions, and

589
00:36:20,239 --> 00:36:23,760
Speaker 2: its seemingly straight back out to Lauren Colin or anybody.

590
00:36:23,880 --> 00:36:25,640
Speaker 3: Cheryl McCollum, you may know the answer to this.

591
00:36:26,719 --> 00:36:30,280
Speaker 2: It seems as if earlier there were plans to take

592
00:36:30,880 --> 00:36:36,240
Speaker 2: out a judge. Another relative was concerned about the custody

593
00:36:36,280 --> 00:36:42,160
Speaker 2: issue and was told that no need for concern't they

594
00:36:42,160 --> 00:36:44,680
Speaker 2: would not have to worry about the custody battle much longer.

595
00:36:44,760 --> 00:36:49,480
Speaker 2: Because I'm quoting from the affidavit, Adams, that's the grandma,

596
00:36:49,600 --> 00:36:52,719
Speaker 2: the mother in law quote had it under control that

597
00:36:52,800 --> 00:36:57,040
Speaker 2: she knew the path the judge walked to work and

598
00:36:57,120 --> 00:37:03,840
Speaker 2: would take out Veronica at the drop off. Take out

599
00:37:03,960 --> 00:37:06,759
Speaker 2: Veronica at the drop off?

600
00:37:07,640 --> 00:37:08,400
Speaker 3: What about that?

601
00:37:08,800 --> 00:37:11,759
Speaker 7: Tell it on herself. She has told on herself.

602
00:37:11,880 --> 00:37:14,560
Speaker 8: I think for the last nine years, I think there's

603
00:37:14,560 --> 00:37:16,560
Speaker 8: probably been threats all over creation.

604
00:37:16,800 --> 00:37:19,279
Speaker 7: And let me tell you the most freaking thing for me.

605
00:37:20,040 --> 00:37:23,759
Speaker 8: This woman, the ex mother in law, cannot stand Veronica.

606
00:37:24,040 --> 00:37:26,840
Speaker 8: She has made that clear. Veronica is no good for

607
00:37:26,880 --> 00:37:29,560
Speaker 8: the children. They're not safe with her. She probably doesn't

608
00:37:29,560 --> 00:37:32,080
Speaker 8: cook and clean, she doesn't take care of them. They're

609
00:37:32,120 --> 00:37:36,759
Speaker 8: only you know, okay when they're in her custody. When

610
00:37:37,320 --> 00:37:42,440
Speaker 8: Veronica did not meet pixcept the children up, especially on

611
00:37:42,520 --> 00:37:48,200
Speaker 8: the daughter's birthday. Remember it was her birthday. She would

612
00:37:48,200 --> 00:37:50,680
Speaker 8: have been the first person, Tiffany would have been the

613
00:37:50,680 --> 00:37:51,839
Speaker 8: first person.

614
00:37:51,960 --> 00:37:55,359
Speaker 7: Calling the court saying she's in contempt. I told y'all

615
00:37:55,360 --> 00:37:56,120
Speaker 7: she was no good.

616
00:37:56,600 --> 00:37:58,919
Speaker 8: I've got these children sitting here crying because their mama

617
00:37:58,960 --> 00:38:02,880
Speaker 8: didn't show up. Is this baby's birthday? When she didn't

618
00:38:02,920 --> 00:38:05,360
Speaker 8: do that, She didn't make that call. Pitch and a

619
00:38:05,440 --> 00:38:08,960
Speaker 8: fin that told me right there she's involved.

620
00:38:09,760 --> 00:38:11,240
Speaker 3: Is nobody worried about?

621
00:38:11,880 --> 00:38:15,959
Speaker 2: Discussion of killing a judge pops up in the affidavit

622
00:38:16,480 --> 00:38:20,040
Speaker 2: because I'm looking right at it that we don't have

623
00:38:20,120 --> 00:38:23,799
Speaker 2: to worry about custody anymore. Because Adams, that would be

624
00:38:23,880 --> 00:38:27,960
Speaker 2: the mother in law, Tiffany Adams quote, knew the path

625
00:38:28,080 --> 00:38:32,560
Speaker 2: the judge walked to work. I mean, Cheryl McCollum, and

626
00:38:32,600 --> 00:38:35,040
Speaker 2: I'm the only one seeing that. Were they going to

627
00:38:35,160 --> 00:38:36,719
Speaker 2: kill a judge too?

628
00:38:36,800 --> 00:38:39,480
Speaker 7: It is telling you the links that she was going

629
00:38:39,560 --> 00:38:40,520
Speaker 7: to go to Nancy.

630
00:38:41,080 --> 00:38:44,560
Speaker 8: Nothing was going to stop her from keeping those children

631
00:38:44,880 --> 00:38:47,239
Speaker 8: away from Veronica.

632
00:38:47,520 --> 00:38:48,839
Speaker 2: She was going to.

633
00:38:49,200 --> 00:38:54,480
Speaker 8: Have every possible avenue stopped so that she could have

634
00:38:54,600 --> 00:38:58,280
Speaker 8: these children. Nancy she's supposedly so connected to the courts

635
00:38:58,280 --> 00:39:01,279
Speaker 8: and to the police, but she has refused to go

636
00:39:01,320 --> 00:39:04,799
Speaker 8: by any of the court's order. They've basically made her

637
00:39:04,840 --> 00:39:08,400
Speaker 8: bulletproof for years. She has stopped the mama from seeing

638
00:39:08,440 --> 00:39:10,680
Speaker 8: them for years. She has refused to do what the

639
00:39:10,719 --> 00:39:13,120
Speaker 8: court tells her to do. And when it looked to

640
00:39:13,280 --> 00:39:16,840
Speaker 8: her that she could no longer prow the court or

641
00:39:17,360 --> 00:39:19,399
Speaker 8: the victim, she killed her.

642
00:39:19,800 --> 00:39:21,920
Speaker 7: That's how it looks, plain and simple.

643
00:39:22,680 --> 00:39:26,400
Speaker 2: There is the death penalty in Oklahoma.

644
00:39:26,800 --> 00:39:27,560
Speaker 3: Kelly Hyman.

645
00:39:28,120 --> 00:39:33,360
Speaker 2: There have to be special aggravating circumstances in order for

646
00:39:33,440 --> 00:39:36,239
Speaker 2: a prosecutor to seek a death penalty, and those have

647
00:39:36,320 --> 00:39:40,960
Speaker 2: to be clearly enunciated far prior to trial in writing.

648
00:39:41,360 --> 00:39:43,560
Speaker 2: There has to be an announcement that the state is

649
00:39:43,600 --> 00:39:46,279
Speaker 2: going to seek the death penalty, and there is a

650
00:39:46,400 --> 00:39:51,879
Speaker 2: very limited number of aggravating circumstances that will suffice. However,

651
00:39:52,520 --> 00:39:56,640
Speaker 2: more than one body is one of those aggravating circumstances.

652
00:39:56,880 --> 00:39:59,080
Speaker 10: Ultimately, that will be up to the state to make

653
00:39:59,120 --> 00:40:02,600
Speaker 10: it a termination whether they believe that they can bring

654
00:40:02,640 --> 00:40:05,680
Speaker 10: it based on the facts and evidence of the case.

655
00:40:06,520 --> 00:40:08,560
Speaker 10: But there is a lot of evidence that is coming

656
00:40:08,600 --> 00:40:11,520
Speaker 10: out and Nancy, to your point about the alleged about

657
00:40:11,520 --> 00:40:16,600
Speaker 10: the judge, that is very very disconcerting because judges are

658
00:40:16,600 --> 00:40:19,440
Speaker 10: the ones that preside over the case and they're the

659
00:40:19,480 --> 00:40:23,200
Speaker 10: ones that make determinations, and so the fact that there

660
00:40:23,280 --> 00:40:27,560
Speaker 10: is allegations of harming a judge, which is very disconcerting

661
00:40:27,680 --> 00:40:31,520
Speaker 10: and very upsetting. But ultimately, no one, no matter who

662
00:40:31,600 --> 00:40:33,840
Speaker 10: you are, is above the law, and people need to

663
00:40:33,880 --> 00:40:36,920
Speaker 10: be held accountable and ultimately that will be up to

664
00:40:36,960 --> 00:40:40,120
Speaker 10: the jury of whether they're innocent or guilty.

665
00:40:40,560 --> 00:40:44,320
Speaker 2: In this case too, our brand joining US former US

666
00:40:44,360 --> 00:40:48,080
Speaker 2: Marshal Service and author IRV to thank All of this

667
00:40:48,280 --> 00:40:53,160
Speaker 2: was over what every other weekend or Wednesday to Saturday

668
00:40:53,280 --> 00:40:57,160
Speaker 2: versus Thursday to Saturday visitations. And you know the so

669
00:40:57,280 --> 00:41:03,240
Speaker 2: called evil mother in law, evil ranny killer suspect. She's

670
00:41:03,320 --> 00:41:06,600
Speaker 2: the mother of the bio dad, so she would have

671
00:41:06,760 --> 00:41:11,799
Speaker 2: access to the grandchildren every time he had visitation or

672
00:41:11,960 --> 00:41:16,160
Speaker 2: you know, shared custody, so if he got the children

673
00:41:16,200 --> 00:41:19,120
Speaker 2: half the time, she would have access to the children

674
00:41:19,400 --> 00:41:21,000
Speaker 2: half of their lives.

675
00:41:21,560 --> 00:41:24,200
Speaker 3: And in a divorce, you know, for a lot of people,

676
00:41:24,520 --> 00:41:30,400
Speaker 3: that's pretty good visitation. And all of this over what

677
00:41:30,719 --> 00:41:32,600
Speaker 3: a few days a month.

678
00:41:32,520 --> 00:41:36,319
Speaker 12: Nancy, I don't think the time had anything to do

679
00:41:36,400 --> 00:41:40,920
Speaker 12: with it. I think to this woman, this was obviously

680
00:41:41,040 --> 00:41:47,879
Speaker 12: about control, and she wanted complete control of when who

681
00:41:47,960 --> 00:41:49,960
Speaker 12: was going to see those children, and when they were

682
00:41:50,000 --> 00:41:53,239
Speaker 12: going to see those children, and what the circumstances were

683
00:41:53,280 --> 00:41:56,280
Speaker 12: going to be. And she wasn't even going to allow

684
00:41:56,320 --> 00:42:00,399
Speaker 12: a judge to dictate to her how to take care

685
00:42:00,480 --> 00:42:04,520
Speaker 12: of these children, because she said it, She'll take that

686
00:42:04,640 --> 00:42:10,680
Speaker 12: judge out, she knows his path to the courthouse. So no, Nancy,

687
00:42:10,800 --> 00:42:14,160
Speaker 12: it makes no sense other than the fact that the

688
00:42:14,239 --> 00:42:20,200
Speaker 12: woman was one of complete control over every action concerning

689
00:42:20,239 --> 00:42:20,840
Speaker 12: those children.

690
00:42:20,920 --> 00:42:21,080
Speaker 3: Two.

691
00:42:21,200 --> 00:42:26,360
Speaker 2: Doctor Kendall Crowns. Doctor Kendall Crowns. Your theory that a

692
00:42:26,440 --> 00:42:30,800
Speaker 2: hammer was used to bludgeon the women dead, most likely

693
00:42:30,960 --> 00:42:35,160
Speaker 2: about the face in the head. The pain they would

694
00:42:35,160 --> 00:42:41,200
Speaker 2: have endured preceding their death would have been unbearable, correct.

695
00:42:41,280 --> 00:42:44,480
Speaker 9: I mean, if she's being tased or shocked with the

696
00:42:44,560 --> 00:42:48,960
Speaker 9: electronic devices or electric devices, then being beaten with a hammer.

697
00:42:49,040 --> 00:42:53,160
Speaker 9: Hammer isn't really efficient to kill someone because it's hard

698
00:42:53,160 --> 00:42:55,200
Speaker 9: to break the skull with a hammer, so they would

699
00:42:55,280 --> 00:42:59,919
Speaker 9: have to continually strike them multiple times, eventually fracturing the head.

700
00:43:00,280 --> 00:43:06,880
Speaker 3: Two unarmed, innocent mothers dead. We wait for justice to unfold.

701
00:43:07,520 --> 00:43:10,200
Speaker 2: Nancy Grace signing off goodbye friend,