1
00:00:06,480 --> 00:00:08,720
Speaker 1: Hey want to welcome in. I'm Doug Gottliebs is all

2
00:00:08,840 --> 00:00:13,000
Speaker 1: ball man. Are you gonna love our guest? His name

3
00:00:13,080 --> 00:00:14,640
Speaker 1: is John Higgins? Your life?

4
00:00:14,920 --> 00:00:16,760
Speaker 2: Really you got John Higgins? Yep?

5
00:00:17,239 --> 00:00:21,599
Speaker 1: John Higgins was up until this year, one of the

6
00:00:21,640 --> 00:00:27,880
Speaker 1: most known, most respected, and frankly most employed officials in

7
00:00:27,920 --> 00:00:28,840
Speaker 1: college basketball.

8
00:00:29,200 --> 00:00:34,000
Speaker 2: You knew him because he had his golden sandy blonde

9
00:00:34,040 --> 00:00:34,680
Speaker 2: brown hair.

10
00:00:35,800 --> 00:00:38,240
Speaker 1: He wore different pants than what seemed like the rest

11
00:00:38,280 --> 00:00:42,560
Speaker 1: of college basketball's officials. He had a flash and a flamboyance,

12
00:00:42,640 --> 00:00:46,240
Speaker 1: and he was completely unafraid to stare down a coach

13
00:00:46,440 --> 00:00:47,840
Speaker 1: or to make a hard call on the road.

14
00:00:48,720 --> 00:00:50,640
Speaker 2: John Niggins is my guest. This is gonna be fun.

15
00:00:50,760 --> 00:00:52,800
Speaker 1: By the way, we do ask about the pants, we

16
00:00:52,880 --> 00:00:56,760
Speaker 1: do ask about the hair, and there's incredible stories in.

17
00:00:56,680 --> 00:00:58,400
Speaker 2: This two part discussion.

18
00:01:00,000 --> 00:01:01,960
Speaker 1: But I want to throw this out because we're coming

19
00:01:02,000 --> 00:01:05,920
Speaker 1: on the back of Draymond Green and turning around and

20
00:01:05,959 --> 00:01:08,480
Speaker 1: punching Nurkic in a game which he was ejected, and

21
00:01:08,480 --> 00:01:10,440
Speaker 1: now I'm likely to be suspended. Maybe by the time

22
00:01:10,480 --> 00:01:14,520
Speaker 1: this is this dropsy, he's been suspended. It's interesting, like

23
00:01:15,000 --> 00:01:18,080
Speaker 1: you do need a guy on your team that everybody

24
00:01:18,080 --> 00:01:20,760
Speaker 1: on the other team wants to fight. I always use

25
00:01:20,800 --> 00:01:24,080
Speaker 1: the Jorge Gutierrez argument, I or him him as the

26
00:01:24,480 --> 00:01:28,199
Speaker 1: as the example, Jorgey Gutier is my brother Greg, who's

27
00:01:28,200 --> 00:01:29,959
Speaker 1: an assistant with the women's at Santaye State. But he

28
00:01:30,000 --> 00:01:31,640
Speaker 1: was with the men for eight years. He left and

29
00:01:31,640 --> 00:01:35,960
Speaker 1: went to cal Berkeley. He went into Finley Prep. And

30
00:01:37,160 --> 00:01:39,000
Speaker 1: I could let my brother tell the story, but I'll

31
00:01:39,000 --> 00:01:41,039
Speaker 1: tell it instead. So Todd Simon, who's now the head

32
00:01:41,040 --> 00:01:43,040
Speaker 1: coach of Bowling Grave, was the head coach at Finley Prep,

33
00:01:43,920 --> 00:01:47,600
Speaker 1: and he rolls in freshly into the Pac ten at

34
00:01:47,680 --> 00:01:50,960
Speaker 1: Cow and back then it was hard to recruit at

35
00:01:50,960 --> 00:01:53,120
Speaker 1: a Pac ten level when you're in at Santae State.

36
00:01:53,120 --> 00:01:55,120
Speaker 1: Even though Santay State was growing in popularity, it won

37
00:01:55,160 --> 00:01:57,720
Speaker 1: the league and was starting to sell out the arena.

38
00:01:58,520 --> 00:02:01,400
Speaker 1: So he's watching all these that Friendly Prep had at

39
00:02:01,400 --> 00:02:05,040
Speaker 1: the time, and he turns to Todd says, who should

40
00:02:05,040 --> 00:02:07,760
Speaker 1: we go after? He said, the kid with the ponytail

41
00:02:08,320 --> 00:02:10,320
Speaker 1: and the kid with the ponytail's names who or you

42
00:02:10,360 --> 00:02:13,960
Speaker 1: get to hear? As he'd come from he'd come from Mexico

43
00:02:14,040 --> 00:02:16,239
Speaker 1: the year before, gone to a prep school in Denver,

44
00:02:16,360 --> 00:02:18,920
Speaker 1: lived with six other kids in a one bedroom apartment

45
00:02:19,680 --> 00:02:22,960
Speaker 1: and then transferred to Findley Prep. He shot with two hands.

46
00:02:23,200 --> 00:02:26,079
Speaker 1: His body wasn't sculpted. He wasn't an above the rim player.

47
00:02:26,680 --> 00:02:29,239
Speaker 1: But Todd Simon said, hey man, when we have a competition,

48
00:02:29,280 --> 00:02:31,520
Speaker 1: when we play, his team always wins.

49
00:02:32,040 --> 00:02:33,520
Speaker 2: He's a tough, bad m effort.

50
00:02:33,800 --> 00:02:36,160
Speaker 1: And oh yeah, by the way, somebody the other team

51
00:02:36,200 --> 00:02:39,040
Speaker 1: wants to fight him every game. So my brother offered

52
00:02:39,080 --> 00:02:41,520
Speaker 1: him a scholarship. By his senior year, he was Pack

53
00:02:41,560 --> 00:02:43,000
Speaker 1: ten Player of the Year. And you know what, in

54
00:02:43,080 --> 00:02:44,840
Speaker 1: four years of cow there wasn't a game he played.

55
00:02:44,960 --> 00:02:46,760
Speaker 1: That's somebody the other team didn't want to fight him.

56
00:02:47,000 --> 00:02:48,360
Speaker 1: And he played in the NBA, and I believe he's

57
00:02:48,360 --> 00:02:50,959
Speaker 1: playing now in Mexico. You have to have those guys,

58
00:02:51,520 --> 00:02:54,720
Speaker 1: but Draymond takes it to another level. And that other

59
00:02:54,800 --> 00:02:59,040
Speaker 1: level is only the true Like this guy is a psycho.

60
00:02:59,440 --> 00:03:02,680
Speaker 1: I don't think the all psychos, you know, but Jason

61
00:03:02,760 --> 00:03:04,320
Speaker 1: Sutherland was a guy who was kind of a psycho.

62
00:03:04,400 --> 00:03:08,720
Speaker 1: Played for Missouri and you guys remember him. Sure, there's

63
00:03:08,800 --> 00:03:11,480
Speaker 1: lots of junk yard dogs out there and guys that

64
00:03:11,600 --> 00:03:15,480
Speaker 1: borderline on dirty. I remember Chris Kingsbury as son. Now

65
00:03:15,480 --> 00:03:18,120
Speaker 1: I think plays at IOWA, and I don't think he was.

66
00:03:18,240 --> 00:03:21,400
Speaker 1: He got caught punching a dude when he wasn't looking.

67
00:03:21,440 --> 00:03:25,360
Speaker 1: Coming off of the screen. Kingsbury's number was fourteen, he

68
00:03:25,480 --> 00:03:27,320
Speaker 1: told me, and I think everybody know it was because

69
00:03:27,320 --> 00:03:29,560
Speaker 1: he loves seven and seven. By the way, seven and

70
00:03:29,560 --> 00:03:33,760
Speaker 1: seven refreshing drink Kevin had in a while. Anyway, here's

71
00:03:33,800 --> 00:03:35,520
Speaker 1: what I like you to do. You want to participate

72
00:03:35,520 --> 00:03:37,920
Speaker 1: in all ball, why don't you tweet at me at

73
00:03:37,960 --> 00:03:40,040
Speaker 1: Gottlieb Show or hit me on Instagram. We post this

74
00:03:40,400 --> 00:03:45,400
Speaker 1: on your favorite college basketball or NBA Bad Guy and

75
00:03:45,440 --> 00:03:48,400
Speaker 1: my bad guy. He hasn't been able to play. Anybody

76
00:03:48,400 --> 00:03:49,480
Speaker 1: can have a guy that sits on the end of

77
00:03:49,520 --> 00:03:51,760
Speaker 1: the bench and does him play. But when you have

78
00:03:51,760 --> 00:03:53,800
Speaker 1: a guy that plays that strikes a little bit of

79
00:03:53,800 --> 00:03:55,840
Speaker 1: fear into the heart of your own team and a

80
00:03:55,840 --> 00:03:57,440
Speaker 1: lot of fear in the heart of the other team,

81
00:03:57,760 --> 00:04:00,640
Speaker 1: it ends up working for you. Draymond's probab is as

82
00:04:00,640 --> 00:04:04,240
Speaker 1: he starts to age. Now the theatrics become more grandiose

83
00:04:04,320 --> 00:04:06,920
Speaker 1: because he thinks it covers the fact ad I'm played

84
00:04:06,960 --> 00:04:10,600
Speaker 1: nearly as well anymore. One last fighting, One last fighting story,

85
00:04:11,320 --> 00:04:14,720
Speaker 1: My first year playing overseas, I played in Russia and

86
00:04:15,080 --> 00:04:16,839
Speaker 1: we had a couple of Russian guys at the end

87
00:04:16,880 --> 00:04:19,280
Speaker 1: of our bench that didn't play that much, and one

88
00:04:19,279 --> 00:04:21,720
Speaker 1: of them was about six ' five and pretty strong lifted.

89
00:04:22,480 --> 00:04:24,320
Speaker 1: We lifted every day, but he was always in the

90
00:04:24,320 --> 00:04:28,560
Speaker 1: height room. And we played against Sessca Moscow and our

91
00:04:28,600 --> 00:04:33,839
Speaker 1: best player was named Sergate Chikulkin, and Chica was He

92
00:04:33,920 --> 00:04:38,280
Speaker 1: looked like powder, he remember, powder, shaved head, pale skin,

93
00:04:38,839 --> 00:04:40,719
Speaker 1: kind of had a weird shot, but man could he

94
00:04:40,760 --> 00:04:43,120
Speaker 1: shoot score. He was the best Russian player that year

95
00:04:43,120 --> 00:04:45,040
Speaker 1: in the Russian legue. We won the Russian League and

96
00:04:45,080 --> 00:04:48,760
Speaker 1: we're playing Sasca in our home gym in perm, Russia,

97
00:04:49,240 --> 00:04:52,160
Speaker 1: and towards the end of the game, Chica came open

98
00:04:52,320 --> 00:04:56,240
Speaker 1: and a guy and shot faked Joven lane and it

99
00:04:56,279 --> 00:04:58,640
Speaker 1: wasn't Roy Rodgers on their team, Rushy Laruez on the

100
00:04:58,640 --> 00:05:01,520
Speaker 1: other team and Andre Kerlink was our team, but it

101
00:05:01,600 --> 00:05:05,000
Speaker 1: was another thing Russian named corner Koff who had played

102
00:05:05,000 --> 00:05:08,839
Speaker 1: in Portland that just leveled him. For the buzzer sounds

103
00:05:09,560 --> 00:05:12,560
Speaker 1: and we go to center court and do the you know,

104
00:05:12,640 --> 00:05:15,080
Speaker 1: clapping and put our hands up and thank the crowd

105
00:05:15,880 --> 00:05:19,240
Speaker 1: and our president of our team comes down from you've

106
00:05:19,279 --> 00:05:23,520
Speaker 1: seen Rocky was a Rocky or where they're in Russia,

107
00:05:23,920 --> 00:05:25,720
Speaker 1: And you know back then the Soviet Union guys just

108
00:05:25,720 --> 00:05:27,320
Speaker 1: sit up at the top of these big chairs. Well

109
00:05:28,040 --> 00:05:30,760
Speaker 1: those places still exist in the arenas, only instead of

110
00:05:30,880 --> 00:05:33,400
Speaker 1: leaders of Soviet Union and the party, it's your.

111
00:05:33,279 --> 00:05:33,960
Speaker 2: Owner of the team.

112
00:05:33,960 --> 00:05:36,479
Speaker 1: So he comes down from on high and says something

113
00:05:36,480 --> 00:05:37,760
Speaker 1: to one of the guys at been off our bench,

114
00:05:37,800 --> 00:05:39,400
Speaker 1: the six to five kind of a ripped up dude,

115
00:05:39,400 --> 00:05:42,480
Speaker 1: big muscular guy. Our team goes one way and our

116
00:05:42,520 --> 00:05:44,160
Speaker 1: locker of their team goes to another way, and he's

117
00:05:44,200 --> 00:05:46,200
Speaker 1: kind of mulling around the court, and eventually I see

118
00:05:46,279 --> 00:05:49,360
Speaker 1: him go into the other team's locker room. Well out

119
00:05:49,360 --> 00:05:50,680
Speaker 1: the rest of the room is a friend of mine.

120
00:05:50,720 --> 00:05:53,320
Speaker 1: I see him after the game. He's like, craziest thing ever.

121
00:05:53,480 --> 00:05:55,720
Speaker 1: We're in a shower. That guy comes in fully closed

122
00:05:56,279 --> 00:05:59,279
Speaker 1: and knocks out My teammate punches him a couple of times,

123
00:05:59,320 --> 00:06:01,280
Speaker 1: knocks around, gets wet in the shower.

124
00:06:01,120 --> 00:06:02,840
Speaker 2: Walks right out, walks to your locker room.

125
00:06:03,279 --> 00:06:04,960
Speaker 1: I was like, you want to hear something crazier When

126
00:06:05,000 --> 00:06:07,000
Speaker 1: he got in our locker room, the president of the

127
00:06:07,000 --> 00:06:08,000
Speaker 1: team gave him.

128
00:06:07,880 --> 00:06:11,240
Speaker 2: A five thousand dollars bonus in cash.

129
00:06:11,480 --> 00:06:13,880
Speaker 1: So tough guys do have a role, but there's a

130
00:06:14,120 --> 00:06:15,520
Speaker 1: time in which you step out of your role and

131
00:06:15,560 --> 00:06:16,400
Speaker 1: it's a little too much.

132
00:06:17,200 --> 00:06:19,040
Speaker 2: Trayvon Green's well passed that a little too much.

133
00:06:19,200 --> 00:06:19,560
Speaker 3: You would have.

134
00:06:19,520 --> 00:06:22,400
Speaker 1: Thought Jordan Poole would level them off in understanding your

135
00:06:22,480 --> 00:06:24,799
Speaker 1: ruin last year's team, But I think he's just showing

136
00:06:24,800 --> 00:06:27,280
Speaker 1: the frustration so in fact that this year's team is worse,

137
00:06:27,360 --> 00:06:30,680
Speaker 1: not better. Let's get to part one. Here's John Higgins,

138
00:06:30,680 --> 00:06:34,240
Speaker 1: who I love to say. I call him friend, and

139
00:06:34,360 --> 00:06:35,920
Speaker 1: the more you listen to him, I think the more

140
00:06:35,960 --> 00:06:43,880
Speaker 1: you like him your basketball journey. If I said, hey,

141
00:06:43,920 --> 00:06:48,799
Speaker 1: close your eyes and your first memory as a kid

142
00:06:49,560 --> 00:06:52,160
Speaker 1: of playing basketball, it's where.

143
00:06:53,680 --> 00:06:58,640
Speaker 3: Playing basketball? It was that where my dad taught and

144
00:06:58,720 --> 00:07:01,640
Speaker 3: coached high school bastoketball in Omaha, Nebraska was at a

145
00:07:01,640 --> 00:07:05,920
Speaker 3: little jim called Cathedral High School. That's where I remember

146
00:07:06,080 --> 00:07:08,880
Speaker 3: starting to play basketballs a little kindergartener because my older

147
00:07:09,000 --> 00:07:12,440
Speaker 3: all my older brothers and sisters were played and my

148
00:07:12,440 --> 00:07:14,680
Speaker 3: my dad was a coach there. That's where I that's

149
00:07:14,680 --> 00:07:17,640
Speaker 3: where I remember starting my basketball career.

150
00:07:18,880 --> 00:07:20,200
Speaker 2: What was your dad like as a coach.

151
00:07:21,440 --> 00:07:27,600
Speaker 3: He hated referees, I mean with a passion. My dad

152
00:07:27,760 --> 00:07:31,240
Speaker 3: was brutal on referees. I mean brutal. I mean it was,

153
00:07:31,840 --> 00:07:33,440
Speaker 3: it was. He was a big man. He was six

154
00:07:33,520 --> 00:07:37,040
Speaker 3: or five and about two seventy five, big man for

155
00:07:37,160 --> 00:07:40,600
Speaker 3: back in those days. And uh he was, he was.

156
00:07:41,200 --> 00:07:43,400
Speaker 3: They were. All the referees were scared to death of

157
00:07:43,440 --> 00:07:45,600
Speaker 3: my dad. I know that.

158
00:07:45,600 --> 00:07:46,440
Speaker 2: That's amazing.

159
00:07:46,800 --> 00:07:50,400
Speaker 1: So so is your career U making making good with

160
00:07:50,480 --> 00:07:52,240
Speaker 1: referees or is it all fuck you to your dad?

161
00:07:52,320 --> 00:07:52,720
Speaker 2: Like what what?

162
00:07:54,600 --> 00:07:56,680
Speaker 3: No? No, it was making good. It was good. You know.

163
00:07:57,080 --> 00:07:59,200
Speaker 3: The funny thing is that, you know, when when he

164
00:07:59,240 --> 00:08:02,560
Speaker 3: got out of high school retired all that stuff, he

165
00:08:02,640 --> 00:08:05,240
Speaker 3: was the observer at Creighton games. So he would help

166
00:08:05,920 --> 00:08:07,720
Speaker 3: back when they were in the Missouri Valley. He would

167
00:08:07,720 --> 00:08:11,680
Speaker 3: help the U the Missouri Valley Conference, Eddie Jackson and

168
00:08:11,920 --> 00:08:15,480
Speaker 3: Boom er Bin with the observing officials and he would

169
00:08:15,480 --> 00:08:18,040
Speaker 3: grade him and that kind of stuff, and uh so

170
00:08:18,080 --> 00:08:22,400
Speaker 3: he got to learn at least my side a little bit. However,

171
00:08:22,440 --> 00:08:27,440
Speaker 3: when I first started back when you played, and he

172
00:08:27,520 --> 00:08:29,840
Speaker 3: used to go to games with me and he would

173
00:08:29,840 --> 00:08:32,240
Speaker 3: just torture me on the way home. I said, I

174
00:08:32,360 --> 00:08:34,600
Speaker 3: was tell my dad, dad, if you're going to come

175
00:08:34,640 --> 00:08:36,640
Speaker 3: with me, you got to be on my team now,

176
00:08:36,679 --> 00:08:40,520
Speaker 3: not on the coaches team. It was brutal. He was

177
00:08:40,559 --> 00:08:41,840
Speaker 3: really tough on referees.

178
00:08:42,000 --> 00:08:46,040
Speaker 2: It really was so okay. So you grew up in Omahon, Debraska.

179
00:08:46,720 --> 00:08:48,400
Speaker 2: What was what was your high school crew? Like?

180
00:08:49,640 --> 00:08:52,840
Speaker 3: Oh, I was at I was an all state basketball player,

181
00:08:53,120 --> 00:08:55,000
Speaker 3: but I wasn't good enough to be in a Division one.

182
00:08:55,040 --> 00:08:59,360
Speaker 3: I played at University of Basket Carney. Uh And I was

183
00:08:59,480 --> 00:09:05,280
Speaker 3: just a average player at best. And you know, we

184
00:09:05,320 --> 00:09:07,720
Speaker 3: always had really good teams. Joey went to the national

185
00:09:07,720 --> 00:09:10,679
Speaker 3: tournament and did really well, and that was an ANI

186
00:09:11,000 --> 00:09:15,160
Speaker 3: back then. That was the Division two back when ANI

187
00:09:15,280 --> 00:09:16,280
Speaker 3: I thought was pretty good.

188
00:09:16,840 --> 00:09:17,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, that was really good.

189
00:09:18,480 --> 00:09:20,719
Speaker 3: But that's been, that's been. You know, that's back when

190
00:09:21,240 --> 00:09:24,120
Speaker 3: Jack Sickman, those kind of guys that Terry Porter played.

191
00:09:24,160 --> 00:09:26,559
Speaker 3: It was kind of by the way I guarded him

192
00:09:26,559 --> 00:09:28,320
Speaker 3: and I held him to forty and his average was

193
00:09:28,360 --> 00:09:32,200
Speaker 3: like forty six in the national tournament. I might I

194
00:09:32,240 --> 00:09:34,400
Speaker 3: think I might have had six points, but he had forty.

195
00:09:34,440 --> 00:09:39,800
Speaker 3: So I felt good about it. Uh. Uh, I was

196
00:09:39,840 --> 00:09:42,960
Speaker 3: just an average player best and uh and you know

197
00:09:43,240 --> 00:09:45,559
Speaker 3: kind of how I got into officiating is because the

198
00:09:45,600 --> 00:09:50,640
Speaker 3: guys back then they had freshman teams and the reference

199
00:09:50,679 --> 00:09:53,160
Speaker 3: didn't show up for a junior college game versus star

200
00:09:53,240 --> 00:09:56,600
Speaker 3: freshman team. And our coach said, hey, twenty five bucks

201
00:09:56,960 --> 00:10:01,480
Speaker 3: and uh and I and I twenty five dollars. Back then,

202
00:10:01,800 --> 00:10:04,680
Speaker 3: there's a lot of beer money in your college. Now

203
00:10:04,720 --> 00:10:06,680
Speaker 3: you raised my hand. That's how I first started getting

204
00:10:07,040 --> 00:10:07,800
Speaker 3: into refereeing.

205
00:10:08,400 --> 00:10:11,960
Speaker 1: Well, first, what is where the Nebraska Curry? Where is

206
00:10:12,000 --> 00:10:13,319
Speaker 1: that in the state.

207
00:10:14,000 --> 00:10:16,360
Speaker 3: It's about the middle of the state. It's from Omaha.

208
00:10:16,480 --> 00:10:20,320
Speaker 3: It's about two and a half hours by car west

209
00:10:20,360 --> 00:10:23,000
Speaker 3: of Omaha between here and Denver basically.

210
00:10:24,800 --> 00:10:28,600
Speaker 1: And how many people live.

211
00:10:28,520 --> 00:10:30,760
Speaker 3: In the town twenty five thousand.

212
00:10:31,679 --> 00:10:32,960
Speaker 2: And how many people go to the school?

213
00:10:34,080 --> 00:10:36,280
Speaker 3: Oh, there's probably seven or eight thousand right now.

214
00:10:37,480 --> 00:10:39,080
Speaker 2: Good time? Was it a good time? Oh?

215
00:10:39,240 --> 00:10:40,880
Speaker 3: We had a great time. It was a lot of fun,

216
00:10:41,160 --> 00:10:41,800
Speaker 3: a lot of fun.

217
00:10:42,760 --> 00:10:43,520
Speaker 2: Who is your coach?

218
00:10:44,400 --> 00:10:48,319
Speaker 3: Jerry Heezier? He was a long time Well, he was

219
00:10:48,360 --> 00:10:51,360
Speaker 3: a great coach. He was an outstanding coach. He's very

220
00:10:51,920 --> 00:10:57,360
Speaker 3: he was very straight narrowed, like no nonsense kind of

221
00:10:57,360 --> 00:11:00,600
Speaker 3: a guy. But he was a great coach. And we

222
00:11:00,640 --> 00:11:02,559
Speaker 3: went to I think we went to the NAI National

223
00:11:02,600 --> 00:11:04,160
Speaker 3: tournam at ten twelve years in a row.

224
00:11:07,080 --> 00:11:09,920
Speaker 1: So so you what year is this when you all

225
00:11:09,920 --> 00:11:13,880
Speaker 1: of a sudden happened upon you know, substitute refereeing for

226
00:11:13,880 --> 00:11:16,120
Speaker 1: for him for twenty five bucks.

227
00:11:16,440 --> 00:11:18,520
Speaker 3: So that was like eighty three eighty four.

228
00:11:19,320 --> 00:11:22,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, so you get done playing in what year?

229
00:11:23,840 --> 00:11:24,439
Speaker 3: Eighty four?

230
00:11:25,280 --> 00:11:26,560
Speaker 2: So you've done playing? What's your plan?

231
00:11:28,600 --> 00:11:31,360
Speaker 3: My plan? Well, I was coming back to Omaha and I, uh,

232
00:11:32,040 --> 00:11:34,400
Speaker 3: actually I was going to teach and I didn't. That

233
00:11:34,520 --> 00:11:37,480
Speaker 3: wasn't that was a very good option. I did some

234
00:11:39,280 --> 00:11:41,600
Speaker 3: things that might were My dad was at school student

235
00:11:41,640 --> 00:11:45,199
Speaker 3: teaching that kind of stuff, and it was like, yeah,

236
00:11:45,240 --> 00:11:48,360
Speaker 3: this isn't. This isn't for me. So I went into

237
00:11:48,640 --> 00:11:51,920
Speaker 3: and in the summers, uh to backtrack into high school.

238
00:11:52,080 --> 00:11:56,080
Speaker 3: Any even my college summers, I was in the me

239
00:11:56,120 --> 00:11:59,679
Speaker 3: and my best friend did siding and roofing for his

240
00:11:59,720 --> 00:12:04,160
Speaker 3: own and and and I thought, shoot, I could do that.

241
00:12:04,240 --> 00:12:05,839
Speaker 3: So I went to work for a company called pace

242
00:12:05,880 --> 00:12:07,880
Speaker 3: Setter Windows and Doors. So I sold the windows and

243
00:12:07,920 --> 00:12:11,080
Speaker 3: doors for six months and I'm like, this is ridiculous.

244
00:12:11,120 --> 00:12:13,440
Speaker 3: The guy come chasing me down the street up out

245
00:12:13,480 --> 00:12:16,600
Speaker 3: the front doors that I could do this myself. So uh,

246
00:12:17,040 --> 00:12:19,600
Speaker 3: we we started ourselves. And then six months later he

247
00:12:19,679 --> 00:12:22,760
Speaker 3: graduated from a Nebraska mall and he moved to Chicago,

248
00:12:22,840 --> 00:12:25,720
Speaker 3: and I bought us tools for one thousand dollars and

249
00:12:26,120 --> 00:12:29,040
Speaker 3: or his half of the tools, and the rest is history.

250
00:12:29,080 --> 00:12:33,240
Speaker 3: Now we've we've we've grown our business to uh decent size.

251
00:12:33,520 --> 00:12:36,000
Speaker 2: So so come about your business to do windows? Windows? Doors?

252
00:12:36,000 --> 00:12:36,480
Speaker 2: What's it called?

253
00:12:37,200 --> 00:12:40,320
Speaker 3: Now? We know? We we we do. We're a roofing, sighting,

254
00:12:40,400 --> 00:12:45,199
Speaker 3: gutter company. So we do all kinds of commercial residential roofing, siding,

255
00:12:45,240 --> 00:12:49,480
Speaker 3: and guttering. Uh. We've uh we we travel. We don't

256
00:12:49,559 --> 00:12:51,400
Speaker 3: just do it in Nebraska, we do it in all

257
00:12:51,440 --> 00:12:54,079
Speaker 3: other parts of the country too. Uh. It's on high

258
00:12:54,200 --> 00:12:57,240
Speaker 3: end houses and in some commercial properties.

259
00:12:57,400 --> 00:12:59,880
Speaker 2: So how long have you all have you had this?

260
00:13:01,720 --> 00:13:07,559
Speaker 3: Eighty? I eighty six. We started it. Yeah, the incorporated

261
00:13:07,559 --> 00:13:10,400
Speaker 3: in eighty seven. So then we all we have a

262
00:13:10,440 --> 00:13:13,000
Speaker 3: property business also where we own and manage our own

263
00:13:14,200 --> 00:13:15,079
Speaker 3: rental properties.

264
00:13:15,840 --> 00:13:17,800
Speaker 2: When you say, well, it's you and who.

265
00:13:18,880 --> 00:13:22,360
Speaker 3: My family, my wife and kids. Now my oldest son

266
00:13:22,480 --> 00:13:25,880
Speaker 3: is thirty two and he's he's uh, he's going to

267
00:13:25,920 --> 00:13:28,560
Speaker 3: be taking over the business here when whenever I want

268
00:13:28,559 --> 00:13:31,280
Speaker 3: to get out. I guess I don't know. I think

269
00:13:31,320 --> 00:13:33,560
Speaker 3: I'm out now because they don't they don't care if

270
00:13:33,600 --> 00:13:34,600
Speaker 3: I'm in the office or not.

271
00:13:39,360 --> 00:13:41,800
Speaker 2: Okay, So you're starting this business.

272
00:13:42,240 --> 00:13:46,040
Speaker 1: When did you start the path becoming one of the

273
00:13:46,040 --> 00:13:48,400
Speaker 1: most renowned referees in college basketball?

274
00:13:49,080 --> 00:13:50,040
Speaker 2: When did that path start?

275
00:13:50,120 --> 00:13:52,720
Speaker 3: Well, they happen. Well, buddy of mine named Paul Caster

276
00:13:52,920 --> 00:13:54,360
Speaker 3: got me into he refereed.

277
00:13:54,400 --> 00:13:54,480
Speaker 4: You.

278
00:13:54,679 --> 00:13:57,440
Speaker 3: I know that he was a big a guy, Missouri

279
00:13:57,520 --> 00:13:58,040
Speaker 3: Valley guy.

280
00:13:59,000 --> 00:13:59,120
Speaker 4: Uh.

281
00:13:59,520 --> 00:14:02,760
Speaker 3: He got me into it in a buddy of mine ndarians.

282
00:14:02,760 --> 00:14:06,400
Speaker 3: Although we used to I used to work cyo basketball,

283
00:14:06,800 --> 00:14:09,680
Speaker 3: you know, third fourth grade, fifth grade, sixth grade, and

284
00:14:09,720 --> 00:14:12,480
Speaker 3: then I got within the year I get into the

285
00:14:12,559 --> 00:14:17,400
Speaker 3: high school level. The uh you know, with my dad's

286
00:14:18,040 --> 00:14:20,880
Speaker 3: people that he knew. And and then my buddy Paul

287
00:14:20,960 --> 00:14:23,240
Speaker 3: Caster got me involved in the high school guy. And

288
00:14:23,520 --> 00:14:26,240
Speaker 3: next year, the next thing you know, I'm working freshman

289
00:14:26,320 --> 00:14:31,120
Speaker 3: JV in high school and salling year I worked my

290
00:14:31,160 --> 00:14:33,120
Speaker 3: first metro game. I thought it was the biggest thing

291
00:14:33,160 --> 00:14:35,600
Speaker 3: in the world. It was, you know, the large class

292
00:14:35,920 --> 00:14:42,440
Speaker 3: in Omaha for basketball, and and and I from was

293
00:14:42,480 --> 00:14:43,680
Speaker 3: from the rest of that.

294
00:14:43,960 --> 00:14:45,520
Speaker 2: Had your dad retired at this time?

295
00:14:47,240 --> 00:14:49,760
Speaker 3: Uh? Yeah, he had he is not coaching basketball at

296
00:14:49,760 --> 00:14:52,600
Speaker 3: this time. No, he was a athletic director at another

297
00:14:52,680 --> 00:14:55,920
Speaker 3: Catholic high school here in town. Like we all went

298
00:14:55,960 --> 00:15:00,800
Speaker 3: to our Catholic high school. I had eight brothers and sisters. Uh,

299
00:15:00,880 --> 00:15:03,360
Speaker 3: and we all went to the same high school, so

300
00:15:03,640 --> 00:15:06,920
Speaker 3: we uh. But at that time my dad went to

301
00:15:07,280 --> 00:15:10,160
Speaker 3: Ron Colleague Catholic, where he was the athletic character. So

302
00:15:10,240 --> 00:15:13,440
Speaker 3: he wasn't all over. I did work games at Rong College, Catholic,

303
00:15:13,520 --> 00:15:16,880
Speaker 3: and I did work a game where he was Actually

304
00:15:17,200 --> 00:15:21,280
Speaker 3: I think he was a coach at Ron Collie and

305
00:15:21,360 --> 00:15:25,320
Speaker 3: my sister was a coach at Cathedral, and it was

306
00:15:25,600 --> 00:15:28,080
Speaker 3: it and I think I don't want to I'm not

307
00:15:28,120 --> 00:15:30,360
Speaker 3: sure if we teed him or tee his assistantur teed

308
00:15:30,400 --> 00:15:33,440
Speaker 3: a player. He was still pissed off of me. Oh

309
00:15:33,480 --> 00:15:37,760
Speaker 3: my god, it was brutal. My sister Cecilia was a

310
00:15:37,800 --> 00:15:40,960
Speaker 3: coach for the at Cathedral for a year or two

311
00:15:41,200 --> 00:15:44,320
Speaker 3: aroun colleague or one of them vice versa. I'm not

312
00:15:44,360 --> 00:15:47,000
Speaker 3: sure which was, but it was. That was not fun.

313
00:15:47,240 --> 00:15:48,160
Speaker 2: That's that's amazing.

314
00:15:48,200 --> 00:15:50,560
Speaker 3: Okay, So late April actually I started, remember do you

315
00:15:50,600 --> 00:15:55,920
Speaker 3: remember Bruce Benedict. I worked I worked Bruce benedict first

316
00:15:55,960 --> 00:15:59,840
Speaker 3: of basketball game ever officiated was with me at a

317
00:16:00,040 --> 00:16:05,720
Speaker 3: junior high game, or not junior high game, JV game

318
00:16:06,200 --> 00:16:08,520
Speaker 3: at Cathedral High School where I went to school. It's

319
00:16:08,560 --> 00:16:12,800
Speaker 3: closed now, but Bruce Bendedict started his little basketball career

320
00:16:12,800 --> 00:16:16,560
Speaker 3: after baseball. Actually it was just when he was finishing

321
00:16:16,640 --> 00:16:18,600
Speaker 3: up in baseball, in professional baseball.

322
00:16:20,280 --> 00:16:20,960
Speaker 2: That's crazy.

323
00:16:22,320 --> 00:16:25,320
Speaker 1: Wait, so eight brothers and sisters, what's the what's the

324
00:16:25,400 --> 00:16:26,000
Speaker 1: age gap?

325
00:16:26,080 --> 00:16:29,880
Speaker 3: Like, how many I'm second to the youngest, So I

326
00:16:30,200 --> 00:16:38,080
Speaker 3: have my oldest brother is seven, the one seventy one

327
00:16:38,200 --> 00:16:41,760
Speaker 3: or seventy seventy one, like it happened in ten years.

328
00:16:42,000 --> 00:16:43,640
Speaker 3: My mom dad had a lot of kids quickly.

329
00:16:44,480 --> 00:16:46,920
Speaker 1: So how many of your brothers and sisters did you

330
00:16:46,960 --> 00:16:48,280
Speaker 1: play basketball with in high school?

331
00:16:50,080 --> 00:16:53,040
Speaker 3: None of them. My sisters were too. My oldest brother

332
00:16:53,160 --> 00:16:55,960
Speaker 3: was a senior when I was a freshman, and he

333
00:16:56,040 --> 00:16:58,000
Speaker 3: was actually he was an All American. Got drafted by

334
00:16:58,000 --> 00:17:01,240
Speaker 3: Golden State Warriors back then. He went to Carne also

335
00:17:01,960 --> 00:17:04,679
Speaker 3: and back of the day Joe Barry Carroll back when

336
00:17:04,720 --> 00:17:07,240
Speaker 3: they had ten rounds. He was at he was the

337
00:17:07,320 --> 00:17:10,680
Speaker 3: last pick in the tenth round and he was close

338
00:17:10,720 --> 00:17:12,720
Speaker 3: from evidently close to making the team. He played in

339
00:17:12,760 --> 00:17:14,520
Speaker 3: Iceland places like that.

340
00:17:16,200 --> 00:17:19,080
Speaker 4: Fox Sports Radio has the best sports talk lineup in

341
00:17:19,119 --> 00:17:22,480
Speaker 4: the nation. Catch all of our shows at Foxsports Radio

342
00:17:22,640 --> 00:17:26,720
Speaker 4: dot com and within the iHeartRadio app search FSR to

343
00:17:26,840 --> 00:17:27,480
Speaker 4: listen live.

344
00:17:28,520 --> 00:17:31,400
Speaker 1: So you start your rep in high school games. You

345
00:17:31,440 --> 00:17:35,800
Speaker 1: have your sighting company at the time, did you how

346
00:17:35,840 --> 00:17:38,320
Speaker 1: do you advance? Is it going to camps?

347
00:17:39,440 --> 00:17:43,960
Speaker 3: So first first, first thing Paul Caster told me said,

348
00:17:43,960 --> 00:17:47,239
Speaker 3: you got to go to this referee camp is the

349
00:17:47,240 --> 00:17:51,040
Speaker 3: Missouri Valley Referee Camp in Saint Louis. And I and

350
00:17:51,080 --> 00:17:53,280
Speaker 3: this is when they were just starting three man. I

351
00:17:53,320 --> 00:17:56,040
Speaker 3: had no clue how to work three man, zero clue.

352
00:17:56,080 --> 00:17:57,640
Speaker 3: I went to this camp and they were just telling

353
00:17:57,640 --> 00:18:00,520
Speaker 3: me where to go and and David phil was the

354
00:18:00,560 --> 00:18:04,440
Speaker 3: boss uh back in the Missouri Valley Conference dase uh in.

355
00:18:04,640 --> 00:18:08,760
Speaker 3: Davy Phillips was a Major League baseball empire if you

356
00:18:08,760 --> 00:18:12,280
Speaker 3: remember that name or not. He uh he was out

357
00:18:12,280 --> 00:18:15,680
Speaker 3: of Saint Louis and he uh they so he put

358
00:18:15,720 --> 00:18:17,359
Speaker 3: me to this camp, and I did the camp, and

359
00:18:17,400 --> 00:18:20,199
Speaker 3: I got I went home and back then we had

360
00:18:20,240 --> 00:18:22,879
Speaker 3: the you know, the recordings on the on the you

361
00:18:22,920 --> 00:18:26,320
Speaker 3: don't have cell phones and all that stuff. But there

362
00:18:26,359 --> 00:18:31,320
Speaker 3: was a tape digital tape thing. So there was my

363
00:18:31,320 --> 00:18:34,439
Speaker 3: my girlfriend at the time, wasn't my wife yet she

364
00:18:34,480 --> 00:18:38,720
Speaker 3: said some guy named Davy Fields co bullshit. He filled call.

365
00:18:38,920 --> 00:18:42,000
Speaker 3: There's no way called because I felt like I you know,

366
00:18:42,040 --> 00:18:44,240
Speaker 3: I refereed, I mean did the place, but I had

367
00:18:44,240 --> 00:18:47,800
Speaker 3: no idea positioning mechanics, that kind of stuff. He goes, No,

368
00:18:47,920 --> 00:18:50,560
Speaker 3: he called. I'm like, okay, So I called. I actually

369
00:18:50,560 --> 00:18:54,560
Speaker 3: called the back and and he hired me. And I

370
00:18:54,680 --> 00:18:58,840
Speaker 3: was in the eighty seven eighty eight uh that year,

371
00:18:58,880 --> 00:19:01,639
Speaker 3: and then I were two or three years for Davy

372
00:19:02,840 --> 00:19:06,280
Speaker 3: and then Davey Phillips quit and took the old was

373
00:19:06,280 --> 00:19:10,040
Speaker 3: it the Great Midwest or the Great Midwest back then

374
00:19:10,080 --> 00:19:14,359
Speaker 3: when Louisville and Cincinnati, when that league was tough, I

375
00:19:14,359 --> 00:19:17,080
Speaker 3: mean really hard. So he took that. He took that job.

376
00:19:17,119 --> 00:19:19,560
Speaker 3: And boomer bin came off the floor. You remember Jim

377
00:19:19,560 --> 00:19:23,720
Speaker 3: boomer Bain refereed you. I'm sure, I mean he was

378
00:19:23,760 --> 00:19:25,719
Speaker 3: on every big national game there was.

379
00:19:26,680 --> 00:19:27,520
Speaker 2: Uh. He uh.

380
00:19:28,119 --> 00:19:30,920
Speaker 3: He took the job, and then I and I then

381
00:19:31,080 --> 00:19:33,160
Speaker 3: uh and every year up to then I only worked

382
00:19:33,160 --> 00:19:36,000
Speaker 3: two three games and then the one the one year

383
00:19:36,400 --> 00:19:39,760
Speaker 3: his first year, a guy couldn't make a game at

384
00:19:39,760 --> 00:19:45,080
Speaker 3: Northern Iowa and uh, so he had me up there.

385
00:19:45,880 --> 00:19:46,800
Speaker 2: He called.

386
00:19:46,840 --> 00:19:48,719
Speaker 3: He was frankly trying to call around, and I got

387
00:19:48,800 --> 00:19:50,159
Speaker 3: to the I'm like, yeah, i'll get there. At a

388
00:19:50,240 --> 00:19:53,719
Speaker 3: high school game, I'll get there. So I drive up there.

389
00:19:53,720 --> 00:19:57,880
Speaker 3: It's about four hours and I ended up whacking up

390
00:19:57,920 --> 00:20:02,480
Speaker 3: coach and and he thought I did unbelievable. And boer

391
00:20:02,560 --> 00:20:05,520
Speaker 3: Bang was a stickler on bench de korm player to Orham.

392
00:20:06,040 --> 00:20:08,160
Speaker 3: Next thing I know, I work. He gives me three

393
00:20:08,320 --> 00:20:10,440
Speaker 3: maybe four more games. And I worked the Valley Term

394
00:20:10,440 --> 00:20:12,520
Speaker 3: at that year, first first time he's ever had. He

395
00:20:12,560 --> 00:20:15,240
Speaker 3: didn't know my name. He just called me big guy, Hey,

396
00:20:15,280 --> 00:20:15,720
Speaker 3: big guy.

397
00:20:16,520 --> 00:20:16,639
Speaker 2: Uh.

398
00:20:17,040 --> 00:20:19,479
Speaker 3: And then I worked the Valley term. The next year.

399
00:20:19,480 --> 00:20:22,280
Speaker 3: I got hired in the Big Eight and wow from

400
00:20:22,280 --> 00:20:24,560
Speaker 3: a guy my named John Erickson. Yeah, and then I

401
00:20:25,359 --> 00:20:26,000
Speaker 3: went from there.

402
00:20:26,640 --> 00:20:29,000
Speaker 2: So you're ref in the Big Eight. This is late eighties,

403
00:20:29,560 --> 00:20:32,520
Speaker 2: early ninety Yeah. What do you make a game?

404
00:20:32,600 --> 00:20:35,119
Speaker 3: By the way, Oh, my first check from the Missouri

405
00:20:35,200 --> 00:20:38,000
Speaker 3: val was three hundred and twenty five dollars. I thought

406
00:20:38,040 --> 00:20:40,720
Speaker 3: I died went to heaven. I thought, shoot, that's twenty

407
00:20:40,760 --> 00:20:43,680
Speaker 3: five thirty back high school games and I worked one

408
00:20:43,720 --> 00:20:46,359
Speaker 3: college game for that. I was. My first game was

409
00:20:46,359 --> 00:20:48,359
Speaker 3: at Drake and the old Bets Audi touring.

410
00:20:49,160 --> 00:20:52,400
Speaker 1: So you're in the Big eight, go ahead, yeah, okay,

411
00:20:52,440 --> 00:20:55,720
Speaker 1: So this is Billy Tubbs. Is that Oklahoma?

412
00:20:55,760 --> 00:20:55,840
Speaker 3: Oh?

413
00:20:55,880 --> 00:21:00,760
Speaker 1: My god, Norm Stewart Stewart is that Missouri? H Coach

414
00:21:00,840 --> 00:21:02,960
Speaker 1: Sutton first? He had coach ham Lem.

415
00:21:02,840 --> 00:21:08,199
Speaker 3: Hamilton letter Hamilton first and coach Sutton. Yeah. Uh, the

416
00:21:08,240 --> 00:21:14,320
Speaker 3: guy the crazy Joe from Colorado.

417
00:21:12,480 --> 00:21:18,160
Speaker 1: Johnny Or from Iowa State Joe Harrington, Johnny Orr, Roy

418
00:21:18,240 --> 00:21:20,399
Speaker 1: Williams or No.

419
00:21:20,240 --> 00:21:24,280
Speaker 3: Oh, but I think it was that Nebraska. Wow. Who

420
00:21:24,359 --> 00:21:32,040
Speaker 3: was Larry Brown? Then Larry Brown's last year? Then Roy Williams. Okay,

421
00:21:32,160 --> 00:21:34,040
Speaker 3: so what are you?

422
00:21:34,280 --> 00:21:37,800
Speaker 1: What's what's the first big, big A game you remember doing?

423
00:21:39,040 --> 00:21:42,600
Speaker 3: Iowa State Missouri was the first big one that I

424
00:21:42,640 --> 00:21:45,000
Speaker 3: ever worked. And it was with I don't remember a

425
00:21:45,000 --> 00:21:48,760
Speaker 3: guy by named ron Zetcher. Remember ron Zetcher from Saint

426
00:21:48,800 --> 00:21:51,439
Speaker 3: Louis had real big ears and yes to go like

427
00:21:51,520 --> 00:21:53,680
Speaker 3: this with his hair, and he had real deep in

428
00:21:53,800 --> 00:21:58,679
Speaker 3: set eyes. Iowa State Missouri, and and I was a

429
00:21:58,720 --> 00:22:01,080
Speaker 3: young guy, and I can't I think our other guy

430
00:22:01,240 --> 00:22:06,280
Speaker 3: was Billy Westbrook out of Saint Louis. And I'm getting

431
00:22:06,320 --> 00:22:09,680
Speaker 3: my ass eating out by both coaches. Finally Zecher went

432
00:22:09,720 --> 00:22:15,040
Speaker 3: over to uh, Norm Stewart knocked that ship off, Norm, otherwise,

433
00:22:15,400 --> 00:22:17,159
Speaker 3: this ship is gonna go in the tank. Leave that

434
00:22:17,240 --> 00:22:20,600
Speaker 3: young kid alone. I'll give him credit. I'll give him credit.

435
00:22:20,720 --> 00:22:22,639
Speaker 3: He didn't. He knocked it off and it was up.

436
00:22:22,720 --> 00:22:24,840
Speaker 3: And now you remember those days I was staate a Missouri.

437
00:22:25,000 --> 00:22:27,159
Speaker 3: Was a hard, hard game with the Antlers in the

438
00:22:27,200 --> 00:22:30,360
Speaker 3: one end. Yes, I mean they I'm sure they tortured

439
00:22:30,400 --> 00:22:32,639
Speaker 3: you when they were when you played and came in

440
00:22:32,680 --> 00:22:35,160
Speaker 3: there was brutal. I mean that was they were nasty,

441
00:22:35,240 --> 00:22:37,840
Speaker 3: brutal people, hot dogs and ship coming on the floor.

442
00:22:38,720 --> 00:22:41,160
Speaker 3: I mean it was brutal. And they're right on top

443
00:22:41,200 --> 00:22:41,720
Speaker 3: of you.

444
00:22:41,880 --> 00:22:45,800
Speaker 1: So what did the Antlers have on you?

445
00:22:45,840 --> 00:22:49,560
Speaker 3: Oh they called me pretty boy and West Coast boy

446
00:22:49,680 --> 00:22:53,240
Speaker 3: and Hollywood and all that, you know, all the all

447
00:22:53,280 --> 00:22:55,200
Speaker 3: the ship today I get through.

448
00:22:56,400 --> 00:22:59,360
Speaker 2: You do have really good hair. And I'm sure back

449
00:22:59,400 --> 00:23:01,600
Speaker 2: then the hair was it was even more of it.

450
00:23:01,600 --> 00:23:04,080
Speaker 3: It was even Oh yeah, there was more of it. Yeah,

451
00:23:04,119 --> 00:23:06,560
Speaker 3: it was not so high. It wasn't so high up

452
00:23:06,640 --> 00:23:08,200
Speaker 3: high for it kind of like you and I got

453
00:23:11,640 --> 00:23:13,280
Speaker 3: and I caught a lot of shit about that, that's

454
00:23:13,280 --> 00:23:13,920
Speaker 3: for sure.

455
00:23:16,480 --> 00:23:19,879
Speaker 1: That older crew, the Johnny Ors, the Billy Tubbs, the

456
00:23:19,880 --> 00:23:23,639
Speaker 1: Norm Stewart. It was actually a sweetheart when when the

457
00:23:23,680 --> 00:23:25,560
Speaker 1: games games not going.

458
00:23:25,400 --> 00:23:28,520
Speaker 3: On, all of them were and they you know what

459
00:23:28,640 --> 00:23:31,639
Speaker 3: they most of them now are They were the greatest

460
00:23:31,640 --> 00:23:33,320
Speaker 3: guys in the world when the games aren't going on.

461
00:23:33,400 --> 00:23:35,760
Speaker 3: I mean they were like night and day. I was,

462
00:23:36,800 --> 00:23:39,680
Speaker 3: it was funny. I was, I did I put the

463
00:23:39,800 --> 00:23:44,760
Speaker 3: referees together for so called challenge. And Steve Barnes which

464
00:23:44,800 --> 00:23:47,840
Speaker 3: is longtime assistant with Larry Stacey and those guys when

465
00:23:47,880 --> 00:23:50,440
Speaker 3: he was a head coach. I mean, this guy he

466
00:23:50,960 --> 00:23:54,119
Speaker 3: was always angry, always had the worst angry face in

467
00:23:54,160 --> 00:23:56,679
Speaker 3: the world, and he was an asshole in the sideline.

468
00:23:56,760 --> 00:23:59,040
Speaker 3: Said what now he's just the nicest man in the

469
00:23:59,040 --> 00:24:03,560
Speaker 3: world to me. Uh, It's just it's amazing how different

470
00:24:03,640 --> 00:24:06,520
Speaker 3: well they you know, coaches are different. I mean they

471
00:24:06,520 --> 00:24:08,919
Speaker 3: think with their heart instead of their brains when it

472
00:24:08,960 --> 00:24:12,199
Speaker 3: comes to you know, when light ball action happens. But

473
00:24:12,560 --> 00:24:14,560
Speaker 3: outside of the court, they're just like we are. They're

474
00:24:14,600 --> 00:24:17,760
Speaker 3: just there's they're there any different than than we are.

475
00:24:17,800 --> 00:24:22,040
Speaker 3: But yeah, they're but outside the court, like uh, Norm

476
00:24:22,119 --> 00:24:24,680
Speaker 3: Steers were really good guy Eddie said was a wonderful man.

477
00:24:26,080 --> 00:24:28,200
Speaker 3: I mean, all those guys were They're good guys off

478
00:24:28,240 --> 00:24:30,520
Speaker 3: the court, just they're just fighting for their teams. They're

479
00:24:30,520 --> 00:24:32,240
Speaker 3: fighting for their big bait check. They're getting.

480
00:24:32,960 --> 00:24:36,480
Speaker 1: You mentioned bench to Koram and and you know how

481
00:24:36,520 --> 00:24:40,960
Speaker 1: you manage that eighties early nineties, you guys let a

482
00:24:40,960 --> 00:24:42,920
Speaker 1: lot more stuff go than you let go now.

483
00:24:44,000 --> 00:24:46,880
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, yeah, I think that was the same thing.

484
00:24:47,320 --> 00:24:50,440
Speaker 3: I think, Doug. I think that was partly because remember

485
00:24:50,440 --> 00:24:54,560
Speaker 3: the NBA back then, I mean it was very similar

486
00:24:54,640 --> 00:24:57,000
Speaker 3: to I mean they let I mean they let that

487
00:24:57,720 --> 00:25:00,560
Speaker 3: there were there were wars back then. Now you touch a

488
00:25:00,600 --> 00:25:03,879
Speaker 3: guy uh in some in some parts of it and

489
00:25:03,960 --> 00:25:06,119
Speaker 3: it's a fall, and that's kind of they want the

490
00:25:06,200 --> 00:25:08,840
Speaker 3: freedom of movement and that kind of stuff that back

491
00:25:08,880 --> 00:25:12,000
Speaker 3: then the coaches said a lot more than they they

492
00:25:12,040 --> 00:25:16,480
Speaker 3: say now, I think, And that's partly because, I mean

493
00:25:16,800 --> 00:25:19,520
Speaker 3: there were mandated by the n c Double A or

494
00:25:19,720 --> 00:25:22,520
Speaker 3: or and by our leagues that you know, the bench

495
00:25:22,600 --> 00:25:26,120
Speaker 3: decorum is is part of sportsman. You know, they want

496
00:25:26,119 --> 00:25:29,359
Speaker 3: the sportsmanship part of it being good.

497
00:25:32,200 --> 00:25:36,640
Speaker 1: Well, so did your girlfriend, now wife, did she come

498
00:25:36,680 --> 00:25:37,560
Speaker 1: into these games?

499
00:25:39,240 --> 00:25:41,679
Speaker 3: She would go to the high school games. Yeah, she

500
00:25:41,680 --> 00:25:42,840
Speaker 3: would go to the high school games.

501
00:25:43,000 --> 00:25:45,359
Speaker 2: Why why would you subject yourself to that?

502
00:25:46,600 --> 00:25:49,240
Speaker 3: Oh, that's a good question, That's a really good question.

503
00:25:51,760 --> 00:25:55,240
Speaker 3: She is funny. She she didn't know anything about basketball,

504
00:25:55,440 --> 00:25:58,679
Speaker 3: didn't She's not much of a sports person, but she is.

505
00:25:58,720 --> 00:25:58,960
Speaker 4: Now.

506
00:25:59,840 --> 00:26:03,040
Speaker 1: Now while you're doing all this, remember this is Kansas

507
00:26:03,119 --> 00:26:06,199
Speaker 1: come up national championship. I remember in the year they

508
00:26:06,240 --> 00:26:09,920
Speaker 1: went won the national championship, Oklahoma lost in the final four.

509
00:26:10,760 --> 00:26:12,840
Speaker 2: Like this is peak Big eight.

510
00:26:14,440 --> 00:26:18,360
Speaker 3: Eddie Sutton probably coaches, I mean the offensively not very well,

511
00:26:18,359 --> 00:26:20,760
Speaker 3: but defensively he is. I mean, you guys have scored

512
00:26:20,800 --> 00:26:23,800
Speaker 3: fifty points in a game, and it was slow down

513
00:26:24,040 --> 00:26:28,399
Speaker 3: style basketball, but it was done the right way. But

514
00:26:28,880 --> 00:26:31,040
Speaker 3: I was I love, I love how Johnny order I

515
00:26:31,160 --> 00:26:33,480
Speaker 3: love I mean, I liked their style too. They got

516
00:26:33,560 --> 00:26:36,840
Speaker 3: up and down and it was just a different it

517
00:26:36,880 --> 00:26:41,440
Speaker 3: was totally different basketball. It seemed to be back then

518
00:26:41,480 --> 00:26:46,240
Speaker 3: than it is now. First time he officiated in the fog,

519
00:26:47,920 --> 00:26:51,080
Speaker 3: it was I don't know what year was. I think

520
00:26:51,119 --> 00:26:52,959
Speaker 3: it was probably.

521
00:26:53,200 --> 00:27:00,720
Speaker 5: Ninety three, in ninety three, ninety ninety three, somewhere in

522
00:27:00,720 --> 00:27:03,360
Speaker 5: that ballpark, and it was It's one of those feelings

523
00:27:03,359 --> 00:27:04,560
Speaker 5: that you just walk in, You're.

524
00:27:04,440 --> 00:27:08,360
Speaker 3: Like, oh god, you're in this big, this shrine of basketball,

525
00:27:08,680 --> 00:27:11,720
Speaker 3: and that's it doesn't matter. And they were playing like

526
00:27:13,560 --> 00:27:16,880
Speaker 3: anti high school. It was as like the exhibition type

527
00:27:16,880 --> 00:27:18,280
Speaker 3: game and they're going to beat them by a hunter.

528
00:27:18,359 --> 00:27:22,000
Speaker 3: But it still felt the same. It's like back when

529
00:27:22,080 --> 00:27:24,560
Speaker 3: you guys had a rolling in Oklahoma State. I mean,

530
00:27:24,600 --> 00:27:27,639
Speaker 3: that place is full every single night, and it felt

531
00:27:27,640 --> 00:27:30,800
Speaker 3: the same. It was big. It was big to me,

532
00:27:30,880 --> 00:27:31,360
Speaker 3: I know that.

533
00:27:32,080 --> 00:27:32,359
Speaker 2: Uh.

534
00:27:32,400 --> 00:27:34,400
Speaker 3: And it's still a special place to play. I mean,

535
00:27:34,880 --> 00:27:38,240
Speaker 3: I don't know if you've been to Grand Canyon or not,

536
00:27:38,359 --> 00:27:40,280
Speaker 3: but that place is rocking and rolling.

537
00:27:40,440 --> 00:27:43,199
Speaker 1: So my my brother was an assistant there with the

538
00:27:43,240 --> 00:27:46,680
Speaker 1: women for the last up until this over the last

539
00:27:46,720 --> 00:27:51,320
Speaker 1: three years, and so even for the women, they'll put

540
00:27:51,480 --> 00:27:52,720
Speaker 1: one thousand people.

541
00:27:52,520 --> 00:27:54,040
Speaker 2: Or so into that place.

542
00:27:54,080 --> 00:27:57,120
Speaker 3: It's crazy. It's crazy, and I mean, did you watch

543
00:27:57,119 --> 00:27:57,720
Speaker 3: it last night?

544
00:27:57,800 --> 00:28:00,400
Speaker 2: Yes, it was insane.

545
00:27:59,880 --> 00:28:03,760
Speaker 3: I watched it. I was there in person when they played.

546
00:28:05,400 --> 00:28:09,360
Speaker 3: Was oh u t Arlington and that place is crazy,

547
00:28:10,040 --> 00:28:12,480
Speaker 3: which is absolutely crazy. And they got they got a rolling,

548
00:28:13,080 --> 00:28:15,200
Speaker 3: and you know they're there. They may be different than

549
00:28:15,200 --> 00:28:18,320
Speaker 3: other other teams at that level, so I think they

550
00:28:18,320 --> 00:28:19,280
Speaker 3: have in I own money.

551
00:28:19,840 --> 00:28:23,000
Speaker 1: They have a million dollars in I own money.

552
00:28:23,359 --> 00:28:30,119
Speaker 3: Do they really? Holy smokes? Wow, wow crazy. That's a

553
00:28:30,119 --> 00:28:35,840
Speaker 3: great environment, Cameron, indoor is a great environment. Obviously, back

554
00:28:35,840 --> 00:28:39,000
Speaker 3: in the back in the day the Oklahoma State when

555
00:28:39,000 --> 00:28:41,320
Speaker 3: it was the roof was lowered, that was a.

556
00:28:41,240 --> 00:28:46,400
Speaker 1: Great It was incredible. Okay, So what's it like. You're

557
00:28:46,440 --> 00:28:52,720
Speaker 1: still pretty young doing it right, and like, look, you're

558
00:28:52,720 --> 00:28:53,920
Speaker 1: evaluated by the.

559
00:28:53,880 --> 00:28:54,960
Speaker 2: Guy who hires you.

560
00:28:55,680 --> 00:28:59,840
Speaker 1: But these coaches at it now and especially at the time,

561
00:29:00,080 --> 00:29:05,880
Speaker 1: are gigantic personalities, you know, Roy Williams, Eddy Sutton, Norm.

562
00:29:05,680 --> 00:29:06,520
Speaker 2: Stewart, et cetera.

563
00:29:07,760 --> 00:29:10,400
Speaker 1: What what is that like as a younger guy where

564
00:29:10,440 --> 00:29:15,120
Speaker 1: you know that they're gonna call about you if they

565
00:29:15,160 --> 00:29:16,240
Speaker 1: think you didn't do them right.

566
00:29:16,360 --> 00:29:17,880
Speaker 2: What's that experience like?

567
00:29:17,960 --> 00:29:22,760
Speaker 1: Because that's the the prevailing wisdom of the college basketball coaches,

568
00:29:22,840 --> 00:29:25,760
Speaker 1: especially the younger ones, is Hey, they're all scared of

569
00:29:25,760 --> 00:29:28,880
Speaker 1: the older guys because the older guys know their bosses

570
00:29:29,640 --> 00:29:32,160
Speaker 1: and you know, they feel like they got a bad,

571
00:29:32,480 --> 00:29:33,920
Speaker 1: bad shake of the officiating.

572
00:29:34,880 --> 00:29:36,600
Speaker 2: Well, then they're they're going to.

573
00:29:36,640 --> 00:29:39,320
Speaker 1: Ah, I'm not gonna be working you know, the bigger games,

574
00:29:39,320 --> 00:29:42,280
Speaker 1: and I want advance. What what's the real experience like

575
00:29:43,320 --> 00:29:45,720
Speaker 1: starting for when you're a young guy, before.

576
00:29:45,480 --> 00:29:46,920
Speaker 2: You became an old when the older.

577
00:29:46,720 --> 00:29:51,080
Speaker 3: Guys, I would probably say that when I you know,

578
00:29:51,240 --> 00:29:53,480
Speaker 3: when I first started. For me, when you get the

579
00:29:53,480 --> 00:29:57,040
Speaker 3: big games and what experienced the referees like high Tower

580
00:29:57,120 --> 00:30:00,680
Speaker 3: and Wilmer and O'Neill and guys like that, it was

581
00:30:00,800 --> 00:30:04,880
Speaker 3: it was extremely Uh, you're scared to death gonna work

582
00:30:05,080 --> 00:30:09,960
Speaker 3: the the Roy Williams and and Johnny Orr and Norman

583
00:30:09,960 --> 00:30:14,000
Speaker 3: Stewart's and aye, you're you're originally scared to death. Hold

584
00:30:14,080 --> 00:30:19,560
Speaker 3: on one second, could you please our dog is he's okay? Now? Anyway,

585
00:30:20,080 --> 00:30:23,160
Speaker 3: you're scared to death. But you know you had to

586
00:30:23,200 --> 00:30:27,600
Speaker 3: earn your stripes, uh, with the other with the older referees,

587
00:30:28,360 --> 00:30:32,760
Speaker 3: and if you if you showed some courage with them,

588
00:30:33,040 --> 00:30:37,480
Speaker 3: most of those guys like that and and would would

589
00:30:37,480 --> 00:30:41,600
Speaker 3: would back you with your supervisor. So and I get

590
00:30:41,600 --> 00:30:43,680
Speaker 3: that now being the boss of the guys out west,

591
00:30:43,720 --> 00:30:47,160
Speaker 3: I get the you know, the you know, a top

592
00:30:47,240 --> 00:30:49,560
Speaker 3: referee would say, Hey, that guy's got courage, he's got

593
00:30:49,640 --> 00:30:52,280
Speaker 3: he's got balls, he can he'll take care of business.

594
00:30:52,320 --> 00:30:55,760
Speaker 3: You know. One thing I always said, Yeah, the coach

595
00:30:55,840 --> 00:30:58,120
Speaker 3: may not like me, but he'll respect me, and he'll

596
00:30:58,160 --> 00:31:02,000
Speaker 3: know I'll take I'll I'll take John Higgins on the

597
00:31:02,040 --> 00:31:04,000
Speaker 3: road any day of the week because he's not going

598
00:31:04,080 --> 00:31:07,160
Speaker 3: to be intimidated by the crowd or the coach. And

599
00:31:07,200 --> 00:31:11,720
Speaker 3: that's hard that Once you learn that as a young official, Uh,

600
00:31:11,960 --> 00:31:14,959
Speaker 3: that gives you more and more confidence that you know

601
00:31:15,520 --> 00:31:20,520
Speaker 3: you belong and you could do the job and no

602
00:31:20,560 --> 00:31:23,120
Speaker 3: matter what an environment you're in and what coach it is.

603
00:31:24,760 --> 00:31:26,040
Speaker 2: So how do you do that? How do you find

604
00:31:26,040 --> 00:31:26,520
Speaker 2: that balance?

605
00:31:26,600 --> 00:31:29,640
Speaker 1: You want to make the right call, but you also

606
00:31:29,680 --> 00:31:33,200
Speaker 1: want to have you know, as you said, like balls

607
00:31:33,280 --> 00:31:36,640
Speaker 1: and the toughness to be like you know what I mean,

608
00:31:36,680 --> 00:31:42,040
Speaker 1: It's like you want to be defiant. I guess here's

609
00:31:42,040 --> 00:31:44,600
Speaker 1: the question. How do you balance the emotion? Like, like

610
00:31:44,640 --> 00:31:47,000
Speaker 1: I said, you want to show that you belong, that

611
00:31:47,040 --> 00:31:49,640
Speaker 1: you're not scared. On the other hand, you still want

612
00:31:49,640 --> 00:31:52,520
Speaker 1: to call the game. Like what what are you talking

613
00:31:52,560 --> 00:31:54,840
Speaker 1: to yourself? What's the message to yourself? How do you

614
00:31:54,920 --> 00:31:57,280
Speaker 1: stand up and do your job and do it right

615
00:31:57,600 --> 00:31:59,640
Speaker 1: without going too far one way or.

616
00:31:59,600 --> 00:32:00,360
Speaker 2: Too far the other?

617
00:32:01,680 --> 00:32:04,440
Speaker 3: Probably be really focused on what you're doing and do

618
00:32:04,520 --> 00:32:07,280
Speaker 3: your job well and make the right calls and believe

619
00:32:07,320 --> 00:32:12,120
Speaker 3: in what you do uh, you know, and then not

620
00:32:12,200 --> 00:32:15,920
Speaker 3: everybody has that part of it. And when I say

621
00:32:16,000 --> 00:32:19,680
Speaker 3: that it and it's a factor that you know, there's

622
00:32:19,920 --> 00:32:23,080
Speaker 3: the great basketball players have that. It can't you can't

623
00:32:23,080 --> 00:32:25,760
Speaker 3: teach that it part. You can't teach that judgment part.

624
00:32:26,120 --> 00:32:28,920
Speaker 3: If you got good judgment as an official, you'll probably

625
00:32:28,960 --> 00:32:31,840
Speaker 3: doesn't matter what your mechanics are like or what have you,

626
00:32:31,840 --> 00:32:34,640
Speaker 3: you'll be you all the chance to be pretty good.

627
00:32:34,800 --> 00:32:38,840
Speaker 3: If you don't have that good judgment, doesn't matter what

628
00:32:38,920 --> 00:32:41,160
Speaker 3: you're if you have courage and that stuff. You have

629
00:32:41,200 --> 00:32:43,120
Speaker 3: bad judgment, you get all your plays wrong, You're not

630
00:32:43,160 --> 00:32:46,040
Speaker 3: gonna doesn't matter you whack guys, They're gonna they're gonna

631
00:32:46,040 --> 00:32:48,560
Speaker 3: fire you because you got bad judgment. That you have

632
00:32:48,720 --> 00:32:51,000
Speaker 3: to have both. You have to have courage. You have

633
00:32:51,040 --> 00:32:53,680
Speaker 3: to have good judgment to be a really good referee.

634
00:32:53,720 --> 00:32:55,840
Speaker 3: And you have to have you know, I always say,

635
00:32:55,840 --> 00:32:57,360
Speaker 3: you've gotta have to be you have to have a

636
00:32:57,360 --> 00:32:59,320
Speaker 3: little bit of pricking you to be a good referee,

637
00:32:59,600 --> 00:33:02,320
Speaker 3: otherwise you'll get you will get tortured out there.

638
00:33:02,840 --> 00:33:04,920
Speaker 1: Sure, No, you have to have I mean, honestly, to

639
00:33:04,960 --> 00:33:06,600
Speaker 1: be a to be a pack of a player, you

640
00:33:06,680 --> 00:33:07,600
Speaker 1: got to have a little brick in.

641
00:33:07,560 --> 00:33:11,160
Speaker 3: You right, exactly. Absolutely, Look at all the great players

642
00:33:11,160 --> 00:33:14,960
Speaker 3: of all time, they had that that you know that, Okay,

643
00:33:15,480 --> 00:33:17,600
Speaker 3: you're doing this, I'm gonna kick your ass. I'm gonna

644
00:33:17,680 --> 00:33:18,920
Speaker 3: shove it right down your throat.

645
00:33:19,000 --> 00:33:25,239
Speaker 1: Yes, yes, absolutely, So when people talk about mechanics, hey,

646
00:33:25,240 --> 00:33:27,800
Speaker 1: when officials talking about mechanics, some of it's positioning.

647
00:33:28,400 --> 00:33:29,160
Speaker 2: But what else is it?

648
00:33:29,200 --> 00:33:32,560
Speaker 1: What goes into the mechanics officienta game properly?

649
00:33:34,640 --> 00:33:37,880
Speaker 3: Oh, it's where you stand, It's it's how you look.

650
00:33:37,960 --> 00:33:40,920
Speaker 3: It's how you lift your your fist, how confident you

651
00:33:40,960 --> 00:33:43,320
Speaker 3: look when you you put your fist up, your hand up,

652
00:33:44,120 --> 00:33:46,480
Speaker 3: you know, just just a lot of it has to

653
00:33:46,480 --> 00:33:50,640
Speaker 3: do with positioning, on how you rotate in your within

654
00:33:50,720 --> 00:33:53,719
Speaker 3: your position. Uh, there's a there, there's a lot that

655
00:33:53,760 --> 00:33:58,240
Speaker 3: goes into the mechanics part of it. Uh, because you

656
00:33:58,280 --> 00:34:00,320
Speaker 3: could be one step to the left, one step to

657
00:34:00,400 --> 00:34:03,840
Speaker 3: the right, are and you're being the wrong spot on

658
00:34:03,960 --> 00:34:07,640
Speaker 3: certain plays. So you know, we're taught a lot of

659
00:34:07,640 --> 00:34:12,000
Speaker 3: different positioning things for mechanics. Still, but it's you can

660
00:34:12,080 --> 00:34:14,680
Speaker 3: tell if the guy's comfortable in his in his body

661
00:34:14,719 --> 00:34:19,160
Speaker 3: and his mechanics, you know, with what you know, he's

662
00:34:19,160 --> 00:34:20,960
Speaker 3: got the fist up the right way, he's pointing the

663
00:34:21,000 --> 00:34:23,359
Speaker 3: right direction. You know that kind of stuff. But you

664
00:34:23,360 --> 00:34:25,640
Speaker 3: can tell by his confidence if he's sure or not

665
00:34:25,719 --> 00:34:28,799
Speaker 3: on his calls to buy his mechanics, how he how

666
00:34:28,840 --> 00:34:31,000
Speaker 3: he how he, how he presents to the table, how

667
00:34:31,040 --> 00:34:34,080
Speaker 3: he walks out to the table, runs out whatever to

668
00:34:34,120 --> 00:34:36,160
Speaker 3: the table. That's what I'm talking about. When you have

669
00:34:36,640 --> 00:34:38,680
Speaker 3: when the guy's confident, has good mechanics.

670
00:34:39,400 --> 00:34:42,200
Speaker 1: When uh, it's also you're also part of a team, right,

671
00:34:42,400 --> 00:34:44,960
Speaker 1: so you have to work Oh yeah, work together? What

672
00:34:44,960 --> 00:34:48,000
Speaker 1: what's that dynamic like when you guys get to the

673
00:34:48,040 --> 00:34:52,360
Speaker 1: gym and you first meet guys and and remember early

674
00:34:52,400 --> 00:34:54,800
Speaker 1: on you knew of these guys, but you didn't know

675
00:34:54,880 --> 00:34:57,759
Speaker 1: him nearly as well. What's it like in trying to

676
00:34:57,760 --> 00:34:59,360
Speaker 1: figure out, Okay, how am I going to work.

677
00:34:59,239 --> 00:34:59,680
Speaker 2: With this guy?

678
00:35:02,000 --> 00:35:05,960
Speaker 3: Well, a lot of it has to do with you know,

679
00:35:06,200 --> 00:35:09,359
Speaker 3: it depends whoever the crew chief is is a big

680
00:35:09,440 --> 00:35:14,279
Speaker 3: deal on who you know, how good your game is

681
00:35:14,280 --> 00:35:15,840
Speaker 3: going to go. If you've got a good crew chief,

682
00:35:16,000 --> 00:35:20,080
Speaker 3: it's a good communicator with with your other officials here,

683
00:35:20,120 --> 00:35:22,640
Speaker 3: you one, you two, Uh, you have a chance to

684
00:35:22,960 --> 00:35:25,560
Speaker 3: have a good game if you're if you're not a

685
00:35:25,600 --> 00:35:29,920
Speaker 3: good communicator and and you know, not well respected by

686
00:35:29,960 --> 00:35:32,040
Speaker 3: your you one you too. You can see a game

687
00:35:32,160 --> 00:35:35,320
Speaker 3: like that that's that could go down the hill really fast?

688
00:35:36,000 --> 00:35:39,279
Speaker 3: Uh you could? You know, all the best officials are

689
00:35:39,280 --> 00:35:43,319
Speaker 3: really good communicators and really good teachers and have good

690
00:35:43,400 --> 00:35:46,080
Speaker 3: pregames in your locker room. And that's a big part

691
00:35:46,120 --> 00:35:48,719
Speaker 3: of it, especially for a young guys. I tell young

692
00:35:48,719 --> 00:35:51,400
Speaker 3: guys just listen, listen what the what the crew chiefs

693
00:35:51,400 --> 00:35:54,200
Speaker 3: got to say? Uh, and and do what they tell

694
00:35:54,239 --> 00:35:58,600
Speaker 3: you to do, and you'll probably be okay and work

695
00:35:58,640 --> 00:35:59,120
Speaker 3: as a crew.

696
00:36:03,120 --> 00:36:05,200
Speaker 1: That's it for part one with John Higgins. Part two

697
00:36:05,200 --> 00:36:09,239
Speaker 1: You're going to love, including why get out? And what now?

698
00:36:09,640 --> 00:36:12,160
Speaker 1: And what would you fix about the game? Reminded the

699
00:36:12,160 --> 00:36:15,399
Speaker 1: Doug Gottlief shows three to five Eastern. We also have

700
00:36:15,800 --> 00:36:18,440
Speaker 1: a stay available daily and podcast forms type in Doug

701
00:36:18,480 --> 00:36:20,279
Speaker 1: Gotlief you can check it out in the meantime. Thanks

702
00:36:20,280 --> 00:36:22,080
Speaker 1: so much for listening. I'm Doug gotlie This is all

703
00:36:22,160 --> 00:36:22,279
Speaker 1: ball