1 00:00:14,956 --> 00:00:15,396 Speaker 1: Pushkin. 2 00:00:29,876 --> 00:00:32,196 Speaker 2: We were built with the DNA for joy. We're supposed 3 00:00:32,236 --> 00:00:36,236 Speaker 2: to derive pleasure from the basic things in life. If 4 00:00:36,236 --> 00:00:39,556 Speaker 2: you're not deriving pleasure from those things, that is a problem. 5 00:00:39,596 --> 00:00:41,876 Speaker 2: That's a warning sign, because we're supposed to be able 6 00:00:41,916 --> 00:00:44,036 Speaker 2: to experience joy. 7 00:00:44,156 --> 00:00:47,916 Speaker 3: Doctor Judith Joseph is a psychiatrist and a clinical researcher. 8 00:00:48,556 --> 00:00:51,556 Speaker 3: These days, joy is a key part of her life, 9 00:00:52,036 --> 00:00:55,196 Speaker 3: but that wasn't always the case. Just a few years ago, 10 00:00:55,436 --> 00:00:57,996 Speaker 3: things looked great from the outside. She was crushing it 11 00:00:57,996 --> 00:01:01,196 Speaker 3: at work and collecting accolades, but on the inside she 12 00:01:01,316 --> 00:01:01,956 Speaker 3: was struggling. 13 00:01:02,396 --> 00:01:05,476 Speaker 2: And I thought, well, if I'm like this and it 14 00:01:05,556 --> 00:01:07,996 Speaker 2: snuck up on me, I wonder how many people like 15 00:01:08,116 --> 00:01:11,596 Speaker 2: me experience I wonder how many people are hiding behind 16 00:01:12,036 --> 00:01:16,756 Speaker 2: a mask of pathological productivity and they're using that busyness 17 00:01:16,756 --> 00:01:19,836 Speaker 2: to cope with something that they have not processed and 18 00:01:19,916 --> 00:01:21,156 Speaker 2: something that's unresolved. 19 00:01:25,356 --> 00:01:33,116 Speaker 3: On today's show, The Mask of Pathological Productivity, I'm Maya Schunker, 20 00:01:33,276 --> 00:01:36,716 Speaker 3: a scientist who studies human behavior, and this is a 21 00:01:36,716 --> 00:01:39,356 Speaker 3: slight change of plans, a show about who we are 22 00:01:39,556 --> 00:01:46,876 Speaker 3: and who we become in the face of a big change. 23 00:01:51,756 --> 00:01:54,716 Speaker 3: Doctor Judith Joseph is the founder of a research lab 24 00:01:54,796 --> 00:02:00,156 Speaker 3: that explores novel treatments for mental health conditions, conditions like anxiety, depression, 25 00:02:00,316 --> 00:02:05,036 Speaker 3: and ADHD. She's also a professor of psychiatry at NYU 26 00:02:05,476 --> 00:02:10,116 Speaker 3: and a practicing psychiatrist. Judith says that back in med school, 27 00:02:10,356 --> 00:02:13,756 Speaker 3: she surprised her family by choosing to go into psychiatry. 28 00:02:14,516 --> 00:02:16,876 Speaker 2: When I went to medical school, I was the first 29 00:02:16,916 --> 00:02:19,596 Speaker 2: person to graduate from college in my family, the first 30 00:02:19,676 --> 00:02:22,476 Speaker 2: doctor in my family. And so if I went to 31 00:02:22,516 --> 00:02:24,556 Speaker 2: my family and I said I want to be a psychiatrist, 32 00:02:24,596 --> 00:02:28,156 Speaker 2: they'd be like, what, that's not a real doctor. My 33 00:02:28,236 --> 00:02:30,476 Speaker 2: dad is a pastor. He still is a pastor. So 34 00:02:30,556 --> 00:02:32,636 Speaker 2: I was a pastor's kid, went to church three times 35 00:02:32,636 --> 00:02:35,676 Speaker 2: a week. And now that I look back, I have 36 00:02:35,796 --> 00:02:38,916 Speaker 2: these memories of people coming into the church and people 37 00:02:38,956 --> 00:02:41,676 Speaker 2: who were thought to have demons. But now I'm like, oh, 38 00:02:41,676 --> 00:02:45,436 Speaker 2: my gosh, that was actually untreated schizophrenia, or people who 39 00:02:45,556 --> 00:02:49,236 Speaker 2: had mood swings, and you know, I think, well, that 40 00:02:49,356 --> 00:02:52,836 Speaker 2: was actually a substance induced mood disorder. And people with 41 00:02:52,956 --> 00:02:55,716 Speaker 2: severe depression who were told to just pray themselves out 42 00:02:55,756 --> 00:02:57,676 Speaker 2: of it. You know, I see all of these things 43 00:02:57,716 --> 00:03:00,876 Speaker 2: that could have been addressed from a mental health perspective, 44 00:03:00,876 --> 00:03:05,036 Speaker 2: but from a cultural perspective, they were called something completely different. 45 00:03:05,236 --> 00:03:07,676 Speaker 2: And when I actually told my parents that I was 46 00:03:07,716 --> 00:03:11,876 Speaker 2: switching from antisysiology to psychiatry, my dad was like, well, 47 00:03:11,916 --> 00:03:13,636 Speaker 2: why you want to work with them crazy people? You 48 00:03:13,636 --> 00:03:17,196 Speaker 2: know they're from the Caribbean. And I said, well, Daddy, 49 00:03:17,396 --> 00:03:19,716 Speaker 2: the brain is part of the body too, and so 50 00:03:19,796 --> 00:03:22,596 Speaker 2: if someone were to have asthma, you wouldn't tell them 51 00:03:22,596 --> 00:03:24,396 Speaker 2: to pray out of it. You'd say, oh, you should 52 00:03:24,396 --> 00:03:26,636 Speaker 2: really go to a doctor and get an inhaler and 53 00:03:26,676 --> 00:03:29,356 Speaker 2: think about all the allergens that are triggering that. But 54 00:03:29,476 --> 00:03:32,556 Speaker 2: for some reason, in many cultures, it is still pervasive, 55 00:03:32,636 --> 00:03:35,076 Speaker 2: this idea that if you have, you know, a mental 56 00:03:35,116 --> 00:03:38,476 Speaker 2: health condition, somehow you should be able to pull yourself 57 00:03:38,516 --> 00:03:41,716 Speaker 2: out of it. That's different than physical health. But we 58 00:03:41,796 --> 00:03:43,556 Speaker 2: know that the brain is connected to the body, and 59 00:03:43,636 --> 00:03:45,276 Speaker 2: I believe it's the most important organ. 60 00:03:45,316 --> 00:03:46,396 Speaker 4: But that's my bias as. 61 00:03:46,316 --> 00:03:49,956 Speaker 3: A psychiatrist, it's my bias as a cognitive neuroscientist. 62 00:03:50,676 --> 00:03:52,236 Speaker 1: We share the same bias. Judents. 63 00:03:53,796 --> 00:03:56,796 Speaker 3: You know, you had your own struggles with mental health 64 00:03:56,876 --> 00:03:59,636 Speaker 3: early in the pandemic, and I'm wondering if you can 65 00:03:59,676 --> 00:04:02,316 Speaker 3: bring me back to that period of time and set 66 00:04:02,356 --> 00:04:04,996 Speaker 3: the scene about what was going on in your life. 67 00:04:06,036 --> 00:04:10,556 Speaker 2: I was giving this talk to very busy, large hospital 68 00:04:10,596 --> 00:04:14,236 Speaker 2: system in April twenty twenty, and they had asked me 69 00:04:14,236 --> 00:04:16,196 Speaker 2: to give the talk because a lot of the healthcare 70 00:04:16,236 --> 00:04:20,836 Speaker 2: professionals were very anxious, very stressed out, and concerned about 71 00:04:21,076 --> 00:04:21,956 Speaker 2: their mental health. 72 00:04:22,116 --> 00:04:23,636 Speaker 4: No one knew what was going to happen. 73 00:04:24,236 --> 00:04:27,116 Speaker 2: The world was in a state of uncertainty, and I 74 00:04:27,196 --> 00:04:30,636 Speaker 2: was supposed to be one of the voices of hope 75 00:04:30,796 --> 00:04:34,996 Speaker 2: giving people skills. But halfway through that talk, I just 76 00:04:35,036 --> 00:04:37,716 Speaker 2: felt like, I think I'm depressed, Like it kind. 77 00:04:37,556 --> 00:04:39,116 Speaker 4: Of stuck up on me. You know. 78 00:04:39,156 --> 00:04:41,356 Speaker 2: In the past, given a talk like that would have 79 00:04:41,796 --> 00:04:44,996 Speaker 2: been really pleasurable for me, you know, but I just 80 00:04:45,036 --> 00:04:48,916 Speaker 2: felt kind of muh bleh. And I just felt really 81 00:04:49,276 --> 00:04:53,876 Speaker 2: lost because the hopelessness was palpable in that presentation. People 82 00:04:53,876 --> 00:04:56,276 Speaker 2: were writing in things like they don't know if they're 83 00:04:56,276 --> 00:04:57,756 Speaker 2: going to be able to see their family, they don't 84 00:04:57,796 --> 00:05:00,836 Speaker 2: know if they could infect people, and it's just like, well, 85 00:05:00,876 --> 00:05:02,316 Speaker 2: I don't know how I'm doing. How am I going 86 00:05:02,356 --> 00:05:03,916 Speaker 2: to help you? I can't even take care of myself. 87 00:05:03,916 --> 00:05:05,956 Speaker 2: That was the moment I had in that moment. But 88 00:05:06,076 --> 00:05:09,196 Speaker 2: you know, on the outside, everything looked perfect. I I 89 00:05:09,196 --> 00:05:12,396 Speaker 2: had just gotten onto this prestigious board of women from 90 00:05:12,436 --> 00:05:16,516 Speaker 2: this MV League institution. My lab was the only lab 91 00:05:16,516 --> 00:05:18,476 Speaker 2: in the building still running. You know, I was still 92 00:05:18,516 --> 00:05:21,276 Speaker 2: taking care of my team, my employees. I had a 93 00:05:21,276 --> 00:05:24,716 Speaker 2: little cute kid at home, perfect marriage, what it looked 94 00:05:24,756 --> 00:05:25,356 Speaker 2: like on the outside. 95 00:05:25,396 --> 00:05:26,356 Speaker 4: But I couldn't slow down. 96 00:05:26,516 --> 00:05:29,156 Speaker 2: In fact, I think that I was probably at the 97 00:05:29,196 --> 00:05:32,676 Speaker 2: height of the most I've ever worked in my entire life. 98 00:05:33,516 --> 00:05:36,556 Speaker 2: My worst fear was not being able to provide from 99 00:05:36,556 --> 00:05:40,316 Speaker 2: my team for my family, letting my patients down. 100 00:05:40,956 --> 00:05:42,516 Speaker 4: So I was coping with that. 101 00:05:42,596 --> 00:05:48,196 Speaker 2: By overfunctioning, overproducing, overworking. I could not sit still, and 102 00:05:48,236 --> 00:05:51,116 Speaker 2: I thought, well, how did I let this happen? I 103 00:05:51,156 --> 00:05:53,756 Speaker 2: internalized that shame and blame, like I should know better. 104 00:05:53,796 --> 00:05:57,516 Speaker 2: I'm a psychiatrist, I studied depression. How did this snake 105 00:05:57,596 --> 00:05:57,996 Speaker 2: up on me? 106 00:05:58,916 --> 00:05:59,916 Speaker 4: And I think a. 107 00:05:59,876 --> 00:06:03,076 Speaker 2: Lot of therapists go through this. We deal with a 108 00:06:03,116 --> 00:06:08,796 Speaker 2: lot of emotions, grief, We deal with this vicarious trauma 109 00:06:08,836 --> 00:06:13,516 Speaker 2: because we hear people's pain all the time, and we 110 00:06:13,676 --> 00:06:16,796 Speaker 2: just we put on that mask because we have to 111 00:06:16,796 --> 00:06:20,196 Speaker 2: show up for others, so many of us feel alone. 112 00:06:20,316 --> 00:06:23,396 Speaker 2: But I thought, well, if I'm like this and it 113 00:06:23,476 --> 00:06:25,956 Speaker 2: snuck up on me, I wonder how many people like 114 00:06:26,036 --> 00:06:29,116 Speaker 2: me experience this. I wonder how many people are hiding 115 00:06:29,156 --> 00:06:33,716 Speaker 2: behind a mask of pathological productivity and they're using that 116 00:06:34,036 --> 00:06:37,596 Speaker 2: busyness to cope with something that they have not processed 117 00:06:37,716 --> 00:06:39,356 Speaker 2: and something that's unresolved. 118 00:06:39,796 --> 00:06:43,156 Speaker 3: You've written that you were caught off guard hearing yourself 119 00:06:43,236 --> 00:06:47,036 Speaker 3: say that you felt depressed because you were so functional 120 00:06:47,076 --> 00:06:48,036 Speaker 3: and so productive. 121 00:06:49,076 --> 00:06:52,916 Speaker 2: Well, it's interesting because every day I have to use 122 00:06:52,956 --> 00:06:57,396 Speaker 2: the DSM five to diagnose people, the Diagnostic Statistical Manual. 123 00:06:57,556 --> 00:07:00,996 Speaker 2: So symptoms of depression are low concentration, things like guilt, 124 00:07:01,596 --> 00:07:04,356 Speaker 2: low energy, changes in your appetite, changes in your sleep, 125 00:07:04,556 --> 00:07:08,956 Speaker 2: You feel restless, you can't sit still. Depression by definition, 126 00:07:09,476 --> 00:07:11,876 Speaker 2: does not require a low mood, and I don't think 127 00:07:11,916 --> 00:07:14,836 Speaker 2: people know that. By definition, you could either have a 128 00:07:14,876 --> 00:07:18,676 Speaker 2: low mood, you know, the classic depression, crying sadness or 129 00:07:18,756 --> 00:07:22,556 Speaker 2: anne Hondonia, which is a lack of interest and pleasure 130 00:07:22,956 --> 00:07:25,956 Speaker 2: in things that you once enjoy. So there are a 131 00:07:25,996 --> 00:07:28,396 Speaker 2: lot of people out there who don't look sad, but 132 00:07:28,436 --> 00:07:31,836 Speaker 2: they're struggling with Anne Hondonia and they don't even realize 133 00:07:32,116 --> 00:07:34,596 Speaker 2: that you don't have to be sad to meet criteria 134 00:07:34,596 --> 00:07:37,716 Speaker 2: for a depression. And listen, I was someone who experienced this, 135 00:07:37,836 --> 00:07:39,876 Speaker 2: and I knew the criteria. I looked at the data 136 00:07:39,916 --> 00:07:42,076 Speaker 2: sent every day, and it still snuck up on me. 137 00:07:42,556 --> 00:07:44,356 Speaker 2: So I just thought people need to know about this. 138 00:07:44,836 --> 00:07:47,196 Speaker 2: Antonia in research is such a boring term, But when 139 00:07:47,236 --> 00:07:49,436 Speaker 2: I started talking about online, it just blew up and 140 00:07:49,476 --> 00:07:50,996 Speaker 2: I was like, why are people so interested in this 141 00:07:50,996 --> 00:07:54,236 Speaker 2: boring term. It's because they could finally name what they 142 00:07:54,236 --> 00:07:57,676 Speaker 2: were experiencing. It was validating because they knew something was off, 143 00:07:57,716 --> 00:07:59,756 Speaker 2: they knew something didn't feel right, they just didn't have 144 00:07:59,796 --> 00:08:02,316 Speaker 2: a name for it. And in psychology there's a term 145 00:08:02,356 --> 00:08:05,676 Speaker 2: called affic labeling. If you can identify the emotion, if 146 00:08:05,676 --> 00:08:08,876 Speaker 2: you can name it accurately, that in itself decreases your 147 00:08:08,876 --> 00:08:12,236 Speaker 2: own certainty because not knowing and then thinking, well, why 148 00:08:12,276 --> 00:08:14,516 Speaker 2: am I not feeling better? What's wrong with me? That 149 00:08:14,596 --> 00:08:18,476 Speaker 2: uncertainty just makes you feel more stressed. And it's really 150 00:08:18,556 --> 00:08:20,876 Speaker 2: hard to be joyful in at peace when you don't 151 00:08:20,876 --> 00:08:24,956 Speaker 2: know what's happening. So naming the antaedonia identifying it in 152 00:08:24,996 --> 00:08:26,876 Speaker 2: itself is very powerful. 153 00:08:27,716 --> 00:08:30,636 Speaker 3: Yeah, what happened next? What did it take for you 154 00:08:30,676 --> 00:08:33,516 Speaker 3: in that moment to try and seek help. 155 00:08:34,156 --> 00:08:34,876 Speaker 4: Here's the thing. 156 00:08:35,476 --> 00:08:38,876 Speaker 2: As someone who is used to being the good girl, 157 00:08:38,956 --> 00:08:41,916 Speaker 2: the people pleaser, I wasn't even aware as to how 158 00:08:41,956 --> 00:08:44,036 Speaker 2: I was people pleasing in my own therapy. I didn't 159 00:08:44,036 --> 00:08:47,916 Speaker 2: want to tell my therapist that I was experracy anadonia 160 00:08:47,916 --> 00:08:49,556 Speaker 2: because I didn't want to let her down. And I'm 161 00:08:49,596 --> 00:08:50,356 Speaker 2: a therapist. 162 00:08:51,596 --> 00:08:55,636 Speaker 3: You are speaking my language, so it's like, yeah, wow, continue, 163 00:08:55,636 --> 00:08:57,796 Speaker 3: I just need to say that I feel so seen 164 00:08:57,916 --> 00:08:58,316 Speaker 3: right now. 165 00:08:59,076 --> 00:08:59,756 Speaker 4: Oh thank you. 166 00:09:00,076 --> 00:09:01,916 Speaker 2: I mean initially I did feel a lot of shame 167 00:09:01,956 --> 00:09:05,996 Speaker 2: and blame, but I didn't share with my therapist. And 168 00:09:06,036 --> 00:09:08,036 Speaker 2: she said, you know, I knew something was going on. 169 00:09:08,156 --> 00:09:10,516 Speaker 2: I just I was waiting for you to say it. 170 00:09:10,636 --> 00:09:13,756 Speaker 2: I knew something was going on. She says, whenever you 171 00:09:13,796 --> 00:09:22,316 Speaker 2: get really busy, something's off. And you've been really busy again, 172 00:09:22,356 --> 00:09:26,636 Speaker 2: back to that pathological productivity. Yeah, I go to for 173 00:09:26,796 --> 00:09:32,316 Speaker 2: coping with pain is busying myself. But in the trauma research, 174 00:09:32,436 --> 00:09:36,276 Speaker 2: in the PTSD research that I do, most people think 175 00:09:36,356 --> 00:09:42,556 Speaker 2: of avoidance as avoiding people, places, or situations that trigger you. 176 00:09:43,276 --> 00:09:46,876 Speaker 2: But those of us who use busyness, we avoid dealing 177 00:09:46,916 --> 00:09:50,076 Speaker 2: with our pain by trying to outrun it with work, 178 00:09:50,396 --> 00:09:54,236 Speaker 2: by taking on side projects. There's something within us that 179 00:09:54,276 --> 00:09:57,076 Speaker 2: doesn't allow us to rest. So we're constantly moving. We're 180 00:09:57,116 --> 00:10:00,356 Speaker 2: constantly busy. When we are not busy, we feel empty. 181 00:10:00,636 --> 00:10:02,556 Speaker 2: When we are not working, we feel restless. 182 00:10:02,556 --> 00:10:04,796 Speaker 4: We just do, and it doesn't necessarily have to be work. 183 00:10:05,156 --> 00:10:07,596 Speaker 2: Maybe it's cleaning out your garage, maybe it's taken on 184 00:10:07,676 --> 00:10:10,196 Speaker 2: a side hustle, maybe it's taken on other people's problems 185 00:10:10,316 --> 00:10:10,916 Speaker 2: or projects. 186 00:10:11,236 --> 00:10:12,396 Speaker 4: You just can't sit still. 187 00:10:13,196 --> 00:10:18,036 Speaker 2: You're avoiding processing what's really happening with and so that 188 00:10:18,196 --> 00:10:19,796 Speaker 2: was me. So she said to me, you know, you've 189 00:10:19,796 --> 00:10:22,276 Speaker 2: been so busy. I just knew something was off. I 190 00:10:22,316 --> 00:10:24,436 Speaker 2: was just waiting for you to tell me, and I'm 191 00:10:24,516 --> 00:10:25,636 Speaker 2: so glad that you did. 192 00:10:26,276 --> 00:10:29,076 Speaker 3: You also started to notice around this time that so 193 00:10:29,196 --> 00:10:33,076 Speaker 3: many other people were sharing a similar constellation of symptoms. 194 00:10:33,836 --> 00:10:38,076 Speaker 3: You eventually identified this as high functioning depression, but you 195 00:10:38,116 --> 00:10:41,076 Speaker 3: saw that there was little clinical research on this condition, 196 00:10:41,316 --> 00:10:44,396 Speaker 3: and so you and your lab decided to start focusing 197 00:10:44,436 --> 00:10:48,596 Speaker 3: on it. Since high functioning depression is likely a new 198 00:10:48,676 --> 00:10:51,636 Speaker 3: term for a lot of listeners. I'd love if you 199 00:10:51,676 --> 00:10:53,076 Speaker 3: could define it for us. 200 00:10:53,436 --> 00:10:55,676 Speaker 2: It's that type of depression where you don't look sad 201 00:10:55,716 --> 00:10:58,516 Speaker 2: and you're weepy. It's that type of depression where you 202 00:10:58,556 --> 00:11:03,476 Speaker 2: don't feel joy. Clinical depression happens when you meet the 203 00:11:03,476 --> 00:11:07,556 Speaker 2: criteria for certain symptoms of depression like changes in your sleep, 204 00:11:07,636 --> 00:11:14,036 Speaker 2: changes in your appetite, low energy, restlessness or being sluggish, guilt, hopelessness, etc. 205 00:11:14,556 --> 00:11:17,556 Speaker 2: And you have to have either low mood, depressed mood, 206 00:11:17,676 --> 00:11:20,796 Speaker 2: or an hedonia. But you also have to meet that 207 00:11:20,836 --> 00:11:24,956 Speaker 2: final box of I'm not functioning. And so a lot 208 00:11:24,996 --> 00:11:28,956 Speaker 2: of folks don't meet that checkbox. They can't slow down, 209 00:11:28,996 --> 00:11:31,796 Speaker 2: they're like me, they're running from something, or they're busy. 210 00:11:32,516 --> 00:11:35,116 Speaker 2: But if you don't, at the very bottom check that 211 00:11:35,276 --> 00:11:38,756 Speaker 2: box of your lacking functioning or you're in significant distress, 212 00:11:39,236 --> 00:11:42,276 Speaker 2: your healthcare professional will just say, well, come back when 213 00:11:42,636 --> 00:11:45,316 Speaker 2: you break down. And so I thought, well, how come 214 00:11:45,356 --> 00:11:47,876 Speaker 2: we don't ever look at these other types of depressions. 215 00:11:48,716 --> 00:11:51,036 Speaker 2: When you look at what's happening in medicine these days, 216 00:11:51,156 --> 00:11:54,756 Speaker 2: especially in the longevity space, it is the complete opposite. 217 00:11:54,796 --> 00:11:57,436 Speaker 2: We're saying, let's not wait for stage four cancer, let's 218 00:11:57,516 --> 00:12:01,076 Speaker 2: educate patients and catch the cancer risks. Or with the 219 00:12:01,116 --> 00:12:05,236 Speaker 2: menopause space, we're seeing people saying educate women about hormones, 220 00:12:05,436 --> 00:12:08,836 Speaker 2: educate them about their diet and their movement. Because we 221 00:12:08,876 --> 00:12:11,796 Speaker 2: want to prevent a heart issue, we want to prevent 222 00:12:12,316 --> 00:12:15,756 Speaker 2: a bone breaking from ostroporosis. So in other fields of 223 00:12:15,756 --> 00:12:19,756 Speaker 2: medicine we're experiencing this renaissance of preventative care, but in 224 00:12:19,796 --> 00:12:22,436 Speaker 2: mental health, we're still waiting for people to check that 225 00:12:22,556 --> 00:12:27,396 Speaker 2: box before we do something. And I wanted to focus 226 00:12:27,436 --> 00:12:30,476 Speaker 2: on those of us who don't break down. We were 227 00:12:30,516 --> 00:12:33,196 Speaker 2: built with the DNA for joy. We're supposed to derive 228 00:12:33,316 --> 00:12:36,796 Speaker 2: pleasure from the basic things in life. But if you're 229 00:12:36,876 --> 00:12:39,436 Speaker 2: not deriving pleasure from those things, and some of the 230 00:12:39,436 --> 00:12:41,316 Speaker 2: things that are on that rating scale are things like 231 00:12:41,556 --> 00:12:44,516 Speaker 2: when you eat a meal, do savor it? When you're 232 00:12:44,556 --> 00:12:47,996 Speaker 2: having a sip of tea, does it refresh you? When 233 00:12:48,036 --> 00:12:49,756 Speaker 2: you take a rest, when you take a nap, do 234 00:12:49,756 --> 00:12:50,996 Speaker 2: you wake up refreshed? 235 00:12:51,156 --> 00:12:51,276 Speaker 4: Like? 236 00:12:51,556 --> 00:12:54,596 Speaker 2: These are all things that are supposed to be points 237 00:12:54,596 --> 00:12:56,836 Speaker 2: of joy for human beings. So if you're not able 238 00:12:56,876 --> 00:12:59,476 Speaker 2: to access that, that is a problem. That's a warning sign. 239 00:12:59,556 --> 00:13:02,556 Speaker 2: It doesn't look as flashy as crying in bed and 240 00:13:02,596 --> 00:13:05,116 Speaker 2: staying in bed all day. But it is still a 241 00:13:05,156 --> 00:13:08,276 Speaker 2: crisis because we're supposed to be able to experience joy. 242 00:13:09,236 --> 00:13:11,516 Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm just thinking about one of my best friends 243 00:13:11,596 --> 00:13:15,396 Speaker 3: in the whole world, and she's described what I'm now 244 00:13:15,516 --> 00:13:18,476 Speaker 3: registering as anaedonia as being almost like seeing the world 245 00:13:18,556 --> 00:13:22,836 Speaker 3: in gray scale. So she's like, there's nothing palpably wrong 246 00:13:22,916 --> 00:13:26,516 Speaker 3: in any given moment. But I don't, like you said, 247 00:13:26,716 --> 00:13:29,796 Speaker 3: I just don't feel joyful about the things, Like I 248 00:13:29,836 --> 00:13:33,276 Speaker 3: almost feel a sense of remove when I'm in experiences 249 00:13:33,276 --> 00:13:36,556 Speaker 3: that would otherwise have brought me joy. And just like 250 00:13:36,956 --> 00:13:40,516 Speaker 3: reflecting on how valuable this conversation would be for someone 251 00:13:40,556 --> 00:13:42,916 Speaker 3: like her, who has, never, like you said, met the 252 00:13:42,956 --> 00:13:45,836 Speaker 3: criteria for depression. She goes to a doctor. Doctors like, 253 00:13:46,356 --> 00:13:49,236 Speaker 3: you're keeping up your job, You're still in a happy marriage, 254 00:13:49,236 --> 00:13:52,236 Speaker 3: things are stable for you, Like what gives why are 255 00:13:52,236 --> 00:13:55,156 Speaker 3: you here? But like you said, humans are designed to 256 00:13:55,196 --> 00:13:58,516 Speaker 3: feel joy, and so it's important that we allow people 257 00:13:58,676 --> 00:14:00,516 Speaker 3: that access right to. 258 00:14:00,476 --> 00:14:03,116 Speaker 1: One of the most primal needs of human beings. 259 00:14:03,356 --> 00:14:05,716 Speaker 2: Joy doesn't mean that you're everything is perfect. It doesn't 260 00:14:05,716 --> 00:14:09,036 Speaker 2: mean that you have no problems. Joy is acts a 261 00:14:09,156 --> 00:14:13,956 Speaker 2: saying those experiences where you're able to find pleasure. So 262 00:14:14,356 --> 00:14:16,836 Speaker 2: if you're in your life and you're not connecting with 263 00:14:16,876 --> 00:14:21,036 Speaker 2: your partner, you're not finding that satisfaction anymore. You're eating 264 00:14:21,076 --> 00:14:22,516 Speaker 2: your food and you don't even taste it, you're just 265 00:14:22,636 --> 00:14:25,316 Speaker 2: kind of shoving it in. These are all points of 266 00:14:25,396 --> 00:14:28,636 Speaker 2: joy that you're losing. So it's worth investigating. It's worth 267 00:14:28,756 --> 00:14:31,996 Speaker 2: understanding what's happening in your life because joy is your 268 00:14:32,036 --> 00:14:32,676 Speaker 2: birthright as. 269 00:14:32,556 --> 00:14:33,036 Speaker 4: A human being. 270 00:14:33,076 --> 00:14:35,716 Speaker 2: If you're not feeling it anymore, it's a red flag 271 00:14:35,836 --> 00:14:38,116 Speaker 2: that you need to dig a little deeper and figure 272 00:14:38,116 --> 00:14:38,916 Speaker 2: out what's happening. 273 00:14:39,756 --> 00:14:41,596 Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, I really do think we put such 274 00:14:41,636 --> 00:14:44,836 Speaker 3: a premium on the alleviation of suffering, but we rarely 275 00:14:44,836 --> 00:14:47,396 Speaker 3: think about the inverse, which is the reclamation of joy. 276 00:14:48,196 --> 00:14:50,836 Speaker 2: Well, many of us are trying to outrun suffering, like 277 00:14:50,956 --> 00:14:52,276 Speaker 2: myself included. 278 00:14:52,876 --> 00:14:53,676 Speaker 4: So what did I do. 279 00:14:53,756 --> 00:14:59,196 Speaker 2: I chased accolades, chase success, money, hoard at all these resources, 280 00:14:59,316 --> 00:15:03,916 Speaker 2: but I was left feeling completely joyless. So you think 281 00:15:03,956 --> 00:15:07,516 Speaker 2: you're trying to alleviate your suffering, but you're actually robbing 282 00:15:07,556 --> 00:15:09,636 Speaker 2: yourself of joy. 283 00:15:12,596 --> 00:15:14,756 Speaker 3: We'll be back in a moment with a slight change 284 00:15:14,796 --> 00:15:39,236 Speaker 3: of plans. After years of research, Judith and her colleagues 285 00:15:39,276 --> 00:15:44,556 Speaker 3: published the first empirical study on high functioning depression. Judith's 286 00:15:44,556 --> 00:15:48,476 Speaker 3: new book is called High Functioning, Overcome Your Hidden Depression 287 00:15:48,716 --> 00:15:53,396 Speaker 3: and Reclaim Your Joy. It draws on original research, patient stories, 288 00:15:53,796 --> 00:15:57,956 Speaker 3: and her personal journey with the condition. Are there particular 289 00:15:58,036 --> 00:16:02,156 Speaker 3: populations of people who are more predisposed to high functioning 290 00:16:02,196 --> 00:16:04,676 Speaker 3: depression and if so, why do you think it's more 291 00:16:04,716 --> 00:16:06,036 Speaker 3: prevalent in these populations. 292 00:16:06,556 --> 00:16:08,556 Speaker 2: Well, I've done the only study in high function depression, 293 00:16:08,596 --> 00:16:11,276 Speaker 2: so it's hard to make a claim. But what I 294 00:16:11,356 --> 00:16:14,356 Speaker 2: do know about depression is that depression tends to impact 295 00:16:14,396 --> 00:16:16,076 Speaker 2: women twice as likely as men. 296 00:16:16,636 --> 00:16:19,596 Speaker 4: Whenever I hear that number, I'm like what, But then 297 00:16:19,636 --> 00:16:22,516 Speaker 4: I'm like, okay, yeah, that makes sense. There are a 298 00:16:22,556 --> 00:16:23,396 Speaker 4: lot of reasons for. 299 00:16:23,436 --> 00:16:29,476 Speaker 2: Us, psychologically and socially. I also think that underserved populations 300 00:16:29,596 --> 00:16:32,756 Speaker 2: go through a lot of trauma. And we know that 301 00:16:33,116 --> 00:16:36,876 Speaker 2: black populations have high rates of PTSD, and some studies 302 00:16:36,916 --> 00:16:42,316 Speaker 2: indicate the highest, And yet we're the population that seems 303 00:16:42,316 --> 00:16:45,716 Speaker 2: to survive just about everything thrown at us. We survive slavery, 304 00:16:46,036 --> 00:16:50,316 Speaker 2: civil rights, injustices, but a lot of that unprocessed trauma 305 00:16:50,316 --> 00:16:53,076 Speaker 2: will catch up to us. We do have to acknowledge 306 00:16:53,076 --> 00:16:55,356 Speaker 2: our mental health, and even though we have high rates 307 00:16:55,356 --> 00:16:58,316 Speaker 2: of trauma, we're not as likely to seek treatment. And 308 00:16:58,356 --> 00:17:00,876 Speaker 2: that's from a host of different reasons, access to care, 309 00:17:01,276 --> 00:17:04,756 Speaker 2: the social determinants of health, and not having enough providers 310 00:17:04,796 --> 00:17:08,796 Speaker 2: that even look like US healthcare professionals are at high 311 00:17:08,876 --> 00:17:12,796 Speaker 2: risk for depression, and the rates of societality and residence 312 00:17:12,796 --> 00:17:16,156 Speaker 2: in medical residence is higher than the general population, so 313 00:17:16,196 --> 00:17:18,876 Speaker 2: the healers are on healed. I think it's really hard 314 00:17:18,876 --> 00:17:23,236 Speaker 2: for doctors to address antedonia as a symptom and a 315 00:17:23,276 --> 00:17:25,476 Speaker 2: problem in their patients because they probably feel a lot 316 00:17:25,516 --> 00:17:26,636 Speaker 2: of antadonia themselves, and. 317 00:17:26,636 --> 00:17:28,556 Speaker 4: They're like, well, why would I diagnose something that I expect. 318 00:17:28,596 --> 00:17:31,316 Speaker 3: Welcome to the club being human, right, this is my 319 00:17:31,396 --> 00:17:32,236 Speaker 3: baseline state? 320 00:17:32,316 --> 00:17:33,156 Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly. 321 00:17:33,636 --> 00:17:37,316 Speaker 3: Yeah, that makes so much sense before we get into 322 00:17:37,516 --> 00:17:40,036 Speaker 3: some first steps people can take. If they are listening 323 00:17:40,076 --> 00:17:43,116 Speaker 3: to this conversation and thinking, oh my god, Judith, I 324 00:17:43,236 --> 00:17:46,076 Speaker 3: definitely have high functioning depression. I just want to quickly 325 00:17:46,116 --> 00:17:49,756 Speaker 3: ask about the journey you've had as one of a 326 00:17:49,876 --> 00:17:53,676 Speaker 3: very small percentage of black physicians in the US trying 327 00:17:53,716 --> 00:17:59,276 Speaker 3: to put forth a somewhat revolutionary and controversial idea, novelty 328 00:17:59,316 --> 00:18:02,036 Speaker 3: of any kind, and feels like this will receive pushback, 329 00:18:02,116 --> 00:18:04,436 Speaker 3: but I want to know what the experience was like 330 00:18:04,476 --> 00:18:07,796 Speaker 3: to like challenge conventional wisdom and put forth this idea. 331 00:18:07,836 --> 00:18:10,916 Speaker 3: Given that just under three percent of physicians in the 332 00:18:11,036 --> 00:18:12,636 Speaker 3: US are black women. 333 00:18:12,556 --> 00:18:15,596 Speaker 2: Yes, and less than two percent of psychiatrists are black, 334 00:18:15,916 --> 00:18:19,076 Speaker 2: so it's like wow. But yeah, Initially when I was 335 00:18:19,116 --> 00:18:22,236 Speaker 2: doing this work, I got a lot of messages from people, 336 00:18:22,796 --> 00:18:29,076 Speaker 2: psychologists and psychiatrists messaging me, calling me, emailing me, Oh, 337 00:18:29,116 --> 00:18:32,836 Speaker 2: this is just another thing you're trying to pathologize. But 338 00:18:32,956 --> 00:18:36,756 Speaker 2: fast forward now it's the opposite. I have doctors reaching 339 00:18:36,796 --> 00:18:39,716 Speaker 2: out to me saying your book has changed my life, 340 00:18:39,796 --> 00:18:41,996 Speaker 2: thank you for speaking to this. Can you come to 341 00:18:42,036 --> 00:18:44,716 Speaker 2: my hospital. The majority of us are experiencing this. 342 00:18:45,196 --> 00:18:47,676 Speaker 1: And what do you think is responsible for that change? 343 00:18:48,196 --> 00:18:52,356 Speaker 2: Well, you know, I think that people are a bit 344 00:18:52,436 --> 00:18:54,276 Speaker 2: more traumatized. 345 00:18:54,316 --> 00:18:56,596 Speaker 4: Now, I'll else to say it. A lot has happened 346 00:18:56,596 --> 00:18:57,436 Speaker 4: in the past five years. 347 00:18:57,596 --> 00:19:00,676 Speaker 2: Yeah, I think people have been through so much politically, 348 00:19:01,116 --> 00:19:05,356 Speaker 2: There's been wars and death and violence and so many changes, and. 349 00:19:05,436 --> 00:19:07,276 Speaker 1: There's like a reckoning of some kind. 350 00:19:07,516 --> 00:19:09,556 Speaker 4: Just so much bad news. 351 00:19:09,836 --> 00:19:11,716 Speaker 2: Yeah, it starts to wear on you and then you're 352 00:19:11,756 --> 00:19:13,836 Speaker 2: just like, you know, I'm not okay. And I also 353 00:19:13,876 --> 00:19:17,476 Speaker 2: think that a lot of people are becoming more open 354 00:19:17,476 --> 00:19:21,196 Speaker 2: to the idea of those of us who are put 355 00:19:21,196 --> 00:19:23,236 Speaker 2: together having struggles. You know, There've been a couple of 356 00:19:23,316 --> 00:19:26,836 Speaker 2: high profile, unfortunately suicides in the past couple of years, 357 00:19:26,836 --> 00:19:30,476 Speaker 2: and so I think it's opening up this language for 358 00:19:30,556 --> 00:19:34,036 Speaker 2: people to say depression does look different, it's not what 359 00:19:34,116 --> 00:19:36,596 Speaker 2: I thought it was, or even to say, yes, I 360 00:19:36,636 --> 00:19:39,156 Speaker 2: am depressed, or I experience that. I've had people that 361 00:19:39,236 --> 00:19:43,116 Speaker 2: I respect and who are not very open about what 362 00:19:43,196 --> 00:19:45,396 Speaker 2: they experience personally come up to me and say, I 363 00:19:45,436 --> 00:19:47,676 Speaker 2: think I experienced that, and I just I don't think 364 00:19:47,676 --> 00:19:49,676 Speaker 2: I knew what it was. And these are physicians, We're 365 00:19:49,716 --> 00:19:53,236 Speaker 2: taught this stuff, you know. So I think it's really 366 00:19:53,236 --> 00:19:55,436 Speaker 2: been a stark change from when I started this. 367 00:19:55,516 --> 00:19:56,076 Speaker 4: Work to now. 368 00:19:56,396 --> 00:20:00,676 Speaker 3: Yeah, and I think I mean another hypothesis is that, look, 369 00:20:01,076 --> 00:20:03,836 Speaker 3: as we talked about before, right, you can only diagnose 370 00:20:03,996 --> 00:20:07,996 Speaker 3: and consider, you can only consider something a real category 371 00:20:08,036 --> 00:20:10,596 Speaker 3: if you're not in denial about having it yourself. Right, 372 00:20:10,636 --> 00:20:12,316 Speaker 3: And so one of the things we talked about is 373 00:20:12,316 --> 00:20:14,476 Speaker 3: maybe so many healthcare professionals are like, hey, this is 374 00:20:14,476 --> 00:20:16,116 Speaker 3: just status quo, like this is what it means to 375 00:20:16,156 --> 00:20:19,916 Speaker 3: live life. And I think one service of COVID is 376 00:20:19,916 --> 00:20:22,476 Speaker 3: that it was shining a light actively on the mental 377 00:20:22,476 --> 00:20:25,476 Speaker 3: health of first responders right for the first time, and 378 00:20:25,756 --> 00:20:27,956 Speaker 3: the effects weren't immediate, but over time, we as a 379 00:20:27,996 --> 00:20:33,356 Speaker 3: society came to appreciate the profound psychological burden that they 380 00:20:33,396 --> 00:20:36,196 Speaker 3: face day to day. And I wonder if that allowed 381 00:20:36,236 --> 00:20:38,636 Speaker 3: for a reckoning of sorts too. For the first time, 382 00:20:38,956 --> 00:20:42,316 Speaker 3: as a culture, we gave space for first responders to 383 00:20:42,516 --> 00:20:46,156 Speaker 3: say I'm not okay, and it was that recognition that 384 00:20:46,236 --> 00:20:49,316 Speaker 3: allows them to then say I'm not okay, which means, yes, 385 00:20:49,396 --> 00:20:51,596 Speaker 3: this might be a real thing. High functioning depression might 386 00:20:51,636 --> 00:20:52,836 Speaker 3: in fact be a real category. 387 00:20:53,156 --> 00:20:54,156 Speaker 4: I think that's spot on. 388 00:20:54,356 --> 00:20:57,756 Speaker 2: You're right, because after the pandemic, people were holding their 389 00:20:57,796 --> 00:21:00,436 Speaker 2: breath to get back to normal, and when normal never happened, 390 00:21:00,476 --> 00:21:00,836 Speaker 2: They're like. 391 00:21:00,796 --> 00:21:02,036 Speaker 4: Okay, this ain't going away. 392 00:21:02,316 --> 00:21:05,516 Speaker 2: We're five years out, almost six years out. Something's got it, 393 00:21:05,556 --> 00:21:07,396 Speaker 2: something's off, you know. And I think you're right that 394 00:21:07,516 --> 00:21:11,316 Speaker 2: time that distance away from you know, that event, people 395 00:21:11,356 --> 00:21:13,516 Speaker 2: are realizing it's not getting better. In fact, some of 396 00:21:13,516 --> 00:21:15,116 Speaker 2: my symptoms are getting worse, so I have to do 397 00:21:15,156 --> 00:21:15,916 Speaker 2: something about it. 398 00:21:16,436 --> 00:21:21,436 Speaker 3: Yeah, high functioning depression currently isn't listed in the DSM, 399 00:21:21,916 --> 00:21:25,436 Speaker 3: the Diagnostic Statistical Manual, so that's the official handbook for 400 00:21:25,716 --> 00:21:29,076 Speaker 3: diagnosing mental illness. How do you think about this? I mean, 401 00:21:29,836 --> 00:21:33,076 Speaker 3: the DSM has terrible and problematic history on the one hand. 402 00:21:33,276 --> 00:21:34,316 Speaker 1: On the other hand, it. 403 00:21:34,316 --> 00:21:38,196 Speaker 3: Is a guide used by most healthcare professionals today. I 404 00:21:38,236 --> 00:21:40,796 Speaker 3: just wonder how you think about that tension and what 405 00:21:41,076 --> 00:21:43,276 Speaker 3: role it will play in the future of your work. 406 00:21:43,716 --> 00:21:47,316 Speaker 2: Well, think about it things like postparm depression. There was 407 00:21:47,316 --> 00:21:49,676 Speaker 2: a time when post palm depression was not in the DSM, 408 00:21:49,836 --> 00:21:52,276 Speaker 2: but we wouldn't say it didn't exist. Burnout wasn't in 409 00:21:52,316 --> 00:21:53,196 Speaker 2: the DSM. 410 00:21:53,276 --> 00:21:53,516 Speaker 5: Yeah. 411 00:21:53,596 --> 00:21:56,996 Speaker 3: Also, wasn't homo sexuality pathologized at something? 412 00:21:57,036 --> 00:21:57,356 Speaker 4: It was? 413 00:21:57,716 --> 00:22:01,556 Speaker 2: Yeah, homosexuality was in there as a disorder. Yeah, you know, 414 00:22:02,196 --> 00:22:07,036 Speaker 2: we do need a diagnostic manual to conduct studies, but 415 00:22:07,076 --> 00:22:09,596 Speaker 2: at the same time we have to acknowledge it to things. 416 00:22:09,396 --> 00:22:09,956 Speaker 4: Can be true. 417 00:22:09,996 --> 00:22:13,636 Speaker 2: There are problems with our current manual and we have 418 00:22:13,716 --> 00:22:15,996 Speaker 2: to keep an open mind. And if we continue down 419 00:22:16,076 --> 00:22:18,316 Speaker 2: this road of let's wait till people break down to 420 00:22:18,316 --> 00:22:19,236 Speaker 2: do something about it. 421 00:22:19,756 --> 00:22:21,876 Speaker 4: Then we are doing the public a huge disservice. 422 00:22:21,956 --> 00:22:24,796 Speaker 2: We need to empower people because in some parts of 423 00:22:24,836 --> 00:22:27,836 Speaker 2: America there's only one psychiatrist for every thirty thousand people. 424 00:22:28,676 --> 00:22:30,436 Speaker 2: You know, in New York you have to wait for 425 00:22:30,516 --> 00:22:32,876 Speaker 2: six to eight weeks sometimes to get a psychiatrist. So 426 00:22:32,876 --> 00:22:34,876 Speaker 2: we have to think about things differently. We don't have 427 00:22:34,956 --> 00:22:37,796 Speaker 2: the professionals to meet the need. We have to train 428 00:22:37,916 --> 00:22:42,356 Speaker 2: people about how to identify these symptoms so they can 429 00:22:42,676 --> 00:22:44,916 Speaker 2: support themselves before they break down. 430 00:22:45,076 --> 00:22:47,396 Speaker 3: Sure, but you do see it as a longer term 431 00:22:47,436 --> 00:22:50,996 Speaker 3: goal to try and advocate for inclusion of high functionivasion 432 00:22:51,036 --> 00:22:51,676 Speaker 3: in the DS. 433 00:22:51,716 --> 00:22:54,436 Speaker 2: Or different forms of depression, because it's not just one 434 00:22:54,596 --> 00:22:55,956 Speaker 2: form for. 435 00:22:55,996 --> 00:23:00,036 Speaker 3: Someone who's seeing themselves in all that you've just described anedonia, 436 00:23:00,276 --> 00:23:04,556 Speaker 3: hyper productivity. What recommendations do you have for treatment, Well, I. 437 00:23:04,516 --> 00:23:05,956 Speaker 4: Would say start with validation. 438 00:23:06,516 --> 00:23:10,156 Speaker 2: I call these the five v's Validation, venting, value, use, vitals, 439 00:23:10,356 --> 00:23:11,516 Speaker 2: and vision. 440 00:23:12,076 --> 00:23:13,436 Speaker 4: I like invalidation too. 441 00:23:14,036 --> 00:23:15,676 Speaker 2: If you're in a dark room and you hear a 442 00:23:15,716 --> 00:23:18,476 Speaker 2: loud crash and you don't see it, some of us 443 00:23:18,476 --> 00:23:20,956 Speaker 2: will start screaming, some of us start running, someone start 444 00:23:20,996 --> 00:23:23,756 Speaker 2: swinging because we're afraid but when you turn that light 445 00:23:23,796 --> 00:23:25,676 Speaker 2: on and you see what fell, or if it was 446 00:23:25,716 --> 00:23:29,316 Speaker 2: an object that fell, you're safe, you feel calm. Many 447 00:23:29,356 --> 00:23:33,076 Speaker 2: of us who are high functioning, we don't take the 448 00:23:33,116 --> 00:23:35,676 Speaker 2: time to acknowledge and accept how we feel. We just 449 00:23:35,716 --> 00:23:38,396 Speaker 2: push it down, We say we'll deal with it next time, 450 00:23:38,476 --> 00:23:41,236 Speaker 2: and then we just keep ongoing. The first step is 451 00:23:41,276 --> 00:23:44,076 Speaker 2: to acknowledge and name how you feel. If you're listening 452 00:23:44,076 --> 00:23:47,276 Speaker 2: to this and you realize that you have anadonia, you're 453 00:23:47,276 --> 00:23:51,356 Speaker 2: not enjoying things and you're lacking joy, name it, accept it, 454 00:23:51,396 --> 00:23:54,636 Speaker 2: and acknowledge it. If you're someone who's feeling very, very 455 00:23:54,676 --> 00:23:59,996 Speaker 2: stressed and anxious, name it, acknowledge it. If we don't 456 00:24:00,436 --> 00:24:02,716 Speaker 2: accept and acknowledge how we feel and we just keep 457 00:24:02,916 --> 00:24:06,476 Speaker 2: on this path of being this human doing and not 458 00:24:06,516 --> 00:24:09,876 Speaker 2: a human being, we're missing out on these precious moments 459 00:24:09,876 --> 00:24:11,796 Speaker 2: in life where we can be accessing joy. 460 00:24:12,796 --> 00:24:13,996 Speaker 4: And I think that step is. 461 00:24:13,916 --> 00:24:17,436 Speaker 2: Really difficult for many people because if you were raised 462 00:24:17,436 --> 00:24:19,716 Speaker 2: in a household where people didn't really talk about feelings, 463 00:24:19,836 --> 00:24:24,836 Speaker 2: or maybe you're in a relationship where you're not validated often, 464 00:24:25,516 --> 00:24:28,356 Speaker 2: or you're in a field of work where the workplace 465 00:24:28,516 --> 00:24:31,596 Speaker 2: doesn't really validate you. You just it becomes your coping mechanism. 466 00:24:32,596 --> 00:24:34,956 Speaker 2: But when you continue to push down your feelings, you 467 00:24:35,036 --> 00:24:37,956 Speaker 2: also numb yourself to feeling joy too. So you have 468 00:24:38,036 --> 00:24:39,836 Speaker 2: to feel the feels. You have to go through it, 469 00:24:39,956 --> 00:24:42,436 Speaker 2: you know, like I did. It wasn't easy for me 470 00:24:42,516 --> 00:24:46,316 Speaker 2: to acknowledge that I wasn't okay, and I fared it. 471 00:24:46,396 --> 00:24:49,516 Speaker 2: I fared saying it out loud. I avoided it. But 472 00:24:49,676 --> 00:24:52,796 Speaker 2: being able to get comfortable with that discomfort allowed me 473 00:24:53,036 --> 00:24:55,076 Speaker 2: to take the steps that I needed to heal. 474 00:24:56,356 --> 00:24:57,076 Speaker 4: And to change. 475 00:24:58,956 --> 00:25:01,396 Speaker 1: Beyond validation, what else do you recommend? 476 00:25:02,196 --> 00:25:03,636 Speaker 4: Venting is very powerful. 477 00:25:03,996 --> 00:25:06,036 Speaker 2: When I bring people into my lab, I'll fill up 478 00:25:06,036 --> 00:25:09,436 Speaker 2: a red balloon and I'll ask each purchase meant to 479 00:25:09,476 --> 00:25:11,916 Speaker 2: try and push that balloon into this tub of water, 480 00:25:12,156 --> 00:25:14,396 Speaker 2: and one hundred percent of time that balloon pops up. 481 00:25:14,676 --> 00:25:17,476 Speaker 2: Why you can't out math physics? Right? 482 00:25:17,476 --> 00:25:18,476 Speaker 4: Physics is physics. 483 00:25:19,556 --> 00:25:21,436 Speaker 2: But then when I ask all those people to then 484 00:25:21,516 --> 00:25:24,036 Speaker 2: try and deflate the balloon, they let the air out, 485 00:25:24,116 --> 00:25:25,996 Speaker 2: then that balloon glides in the water, or you could 486 00:25:26,036 --> 00:25:28,796 Speaker 2: easily push it down. If we don't learn how to 487 00:25:28,836 --> 00:25:32,276 Speaker 2: express our feelings, it will pop up in our relationships 488 00:25:32,316 --> 00:25:33,396 Speaker 2: in a nasty fight. 489 00:25:33,716 --> 00:25:34,796 Speaker 4: It'll pop upbout work. 490 00:25:35,316 --> 00:25:37,636 Speaker 2: It'll pop up when we're driving home from work and 491 00:25:37,756 --> 00:25:40,196 Speaker 2: we cut someone off. It can pop up in our health. 492 00:25:40,516 --> 00:25:44,716 Speaker 2: So being able to express your emotions intentionally, not just 493 00:25:44,756 --> 00:25:46,956 Speaker 2: like going out in trauma dumping, not just telling anybody 494 00:25:46,956 --> 00:25:49,956 Speaker 2: how you feel all the time, but if that's to 495 00:25:49,996 --> 00:25:52,756 Speaker 2: a therapist, that's really powerful. When I started talking to 496 00:25:52,836 --> 00:25:55,036 Speaker 2: my therapist about how I was feeling, it just felt 497 00:25:55,036 --> 00:25:57,596 Speaker 2: like a load had been lifted off of me. 498 00:25:58,356 --> 00:25:59,996 Speaker 4: And then I wonder, why did I do this sooner? 499 00:26:00,156 --> 00:26:00,836 Speaker 4: That was silly. 500 00:26:01,236 --> 00:26:03,556 Speaker 2: But for those of us who aren't in therapy, talking 501 00:26:03,556 --> 00:26:06,276 Speaker 2: to a trusted faith leader or to a family friend, 502 00:26:06,476 --> 00:26:08,636 Speaker 2: you know, being careful about who you talk to. You 503 00:26:08,636 --> 00:26:10,116 Speaker 2: don't want to talk to your people who are in 504 00:26:10,236 --> 00:26:12,836 Speaker 2: lower positions than you, like your kids, because they're going 505 00:26:12,916 --> 00:26:14,756 Speaker 2: to listen, but they're going to worry about you, and 506 00:26:14,796 --> 00:26:17,356 Speaker 2: so that's an unfair power dynamic, or to your employees. 507 00:26:17,396 --> 00:26:20,636 Speaker 2: But venting it can also be in writing, like journaling. 508 00:26:20,796 --> 00:26:23,596 Speaker 2: It could be through singing, through praying, through crying, just 509 00:26:23,716 --> 00:26:27,996 Speaker 2: express those emotions to release some of that anxious energy. 510 00:26:29,036 --> 00:26:32,836 Speaker 2: For a very long time, I was chasing the accolades, 511 00:26:32,996 --> 00:26:36,996 Speaker 2: the achievements, but I forgot why I actually went into 512 00:26:36,996 --> 00:26:39,636 Speaker 2: my role. I wanted to learn out of curiosity, this 513 00:26:40,396 --> 00:26:44,796 Speaker 2: thirst for knowledge. And when I started to seek knowledge 514 00:26:44,836 --> 00:26:47,956 Speaker 2: and curiosity versus the accolades, I started to feel a 515 00:26:47,996 --> 00:26:51,916 Speaker 2: sense of purpose again. And so I classify value as 516 00:26:51,996 --> 00:26:55,796 Speaker 2: things that are priceless, not with the price tags. So 517 00:26:55,876 --> 00:26:57,796 Speaker 2: many of us chase these things that we think will 518 00:26:57,836 --> 00:27:00,476 Speaker 2: make us happy, but they end up causing us more stress. 519 00:27:00,636 --> 00:27:03,116 Speaker 2: So try and tap into things that actually bring you 520 00:27:03,236 --> 00:27:06,236 Speaker 2: meaning and purpose. For me, it was connection with others 521 00:27:06,276 --> 00:27:10,116 Speaker 2: and curiosity and learning others. It could be things like 522 00:27:10,236 --> 00:27:12,996 Speaker 2: nature or their faith or community. 523 00:27:13,996 --> 00:27:14,756 Speaker 4: And then the. 524 00:27:14,716 --> 00:27:18,196 Speaker 2: Fourth vas vitals, and that's really honoring the fact that 525 00:27:18,236 --> 00:27:21,596 Speaker 2: you only get one body and brain and really taking 526 00:27:21,636 --> 00:27:23,596 Speaker 2: care of that. When I was in my highest high 527 00:27:23,596 --> 00:27:26,396 Speaker 2: functioning ways, I'd go through a day and I'd like, 528 00:27:26,396 --> 00:27:27,396 Speaker 2: at the end of the day, I'd be like, oh 529 00:27:27,436 --> 00:27:28,876 Speaker 2: my gosh, I didn't even go to the bathroom. I'd 530 00:27:28,876 --> 00:27:30,596 Speaker 2: be running to the bathroom as soon as I got home, 531 00:27:30,676 --> 00:27:34,436 Speaker 2: you know, not eating properly, just eating the fastest thing 532 00:27:34,476 --> 00:27:36,716 Speaker 2: I could get my hand on. Take the time to 533 00:27:36,756 --> 00:27:40,476 Speaker 2: take care of your body. Pencil in those breaks in 534 00:27:40,516 --> 00:27:42,996 Speaker 2: between your zooms. What's the worst thing that could happen 535 00:27:43,036 --> 00:27:45,036 Speaker 2: if you go and use the bathroom. What's the worst 536 00:27:45,076 --> 00:27:47,676 Speaker 2: thing that happened if God forbid ate your salad without 537 00:27:47,716 --> 00:27:50,236 Speaker 2: looking at a screen, or trying to cram in a 538 00:27:50,236 --> 00:27:52,556 Speaker 2: meeting while you ate. These are all the things that 539 00:27:52,636 --> 00:27:54,516 Speaker 2: are the simple things in life. And there was this 540 00:27:54,596 --> 00:27:57,676 Speaker 2: recent study where they took the smartphone capacity away from 541 00:27:57,716 --> 00:28:00,876 Speaker 2: these phones and people for two weeks could only use 542 00:28:00,916 --> 00:28:02,716 Speaker 2: their phones as if it were just like a flip phone, 543 00:28:02,716 --> 00:28:05,716 Speaker 2: like protecting and calling. And what they found was that 544 00:28:05,796 --> 00:28:08,556 Speaker 2: after two weeks, their mood scores went up as if 545 00:28:08,596 --> 00:28:11,036 Speaker 2: they were being read it with an answer depressant. Why 546 00:28:11,356 --> 00:28:14,876 Speaker 2: Because they were sleeping more, they were eating and tasting 547 00:28:14,876 --> 00:28:16,836 Speaker 2: their food, they were out in nature, they were connecting 548 00:28:16,836 --> 00:28:19,836 Speaker 2: more with others. They were getting all those points of 549 00:28:19,956 --> 00:28:22,956 Speaker 2: joy that I was talking about that we actually add 550 00:28:23,036 --> 00:28:25,876 Speaker 2: up to determine how people are becoming happy in depression research. Right, 551 00:28:25,916 --> 00:28:28,076 Speaker 2: they were actually getting those points because they weren't so 552 00:28:28,196 --> 00:28:29,196 Speaker 2: busy on their phones. 553 00:28:29,836 --> 00:28:32,036 Speaker 4: So really honor your body in that way. 554 00:28:32,836 --> 00:28:34,836 Speaker 3: It's so funny you mentioned that there was this moment, 555 00:28:34,996 --> 00:28:36,596 Speaker 3: maybe it was like a year or two ago where 556 00:28:36,636 --> 00:28:39,516 Speaker 3: I was sitting down to have lunch and I had 557 00:28:39,516 --> 00:28:42,876 Speaker 3: my laptop and it was playing something, but that wasn't 558 00:28:42,916 --> 00:28:46,036 Speaker 3: stimulating enough because I feel like this level of stimulation, 559 00:28:46,076 --> 00:28:47,956 Speaker 3: I think it's addictive. It feeds on itself. It's like 560 00:28:48,156 --> 00:28:50,316 Speaker 3: adapting this sugar. You just need more and more of it. 561 00:28:50,476 --> 00:28:54,036 Speaker 3: So that I'm also on my phone scrolling like Instagram 562 00:28:54,196 --> 00:28:56,596 Speaker 3: as this video plays as I'm eating my lunch, and 563 00:28:56,596 --> 00:28:59,756 Speaker 3: I'm like, when was the last time you sat down 564 00:29:00,516 --> 00:29:04,396 Speaker 3: to eat anything without your phone? And it was astonishing 565 00:29:04,716 --> 00:29:08,076 Speaker 3: how infrequent that experience was for me, certainly during lunchtime. 566 00:29:08,196 --> 00:29:09,756 Speaker 2: Well, you know, I'm glad you brought that up, because 567 00:29:09,756 --> 00:29:13,396 Speaker 2: I'm so intentional about my lunch these days. Because there 568 00:29:13,476 --> 00:29:15,796 Speaker 2: was a period in time where I had to take 569 00:29:15,916 --> 00:29:19,356 Speaker 2: acid pills every day because I was just shoving it 570 00:29:19,396 --> 00:29:22,556 Speaker 2: in in front of a meeting, putting on mutes so 571 00:29:22,596 --> 00:29:25,196 Speaker 2: I could crunch my salad some people in the here 572 00:29:25,196 --> 00:29:27,356 Speaker 2: that I was eating and then off right, and then 573 00:29:27,396 --> 00:29:30,676 Speaker 2: I have, let's say ask, I'm like, what was I thinking? 574 00:29:30,956 --> 00:29:33,876 Speaker 2: One of the basic joys is eating food and savoring it. 575 00:29:34,276 --> 00:29:35,396 Speaker 2: There was no need for that. 576 00:29:35,636 --> 00:29:37,196 Speaker 4: You know, no one was going to. 577 00:29:37,236 --> 00:29:40,276 Speaker 2: Lose anything if I actually God forbid ate my salad 578 00:29:40,596 --> 00:29:41,116 Speaker 2: in peace. 579 00:29:41,436 --> 00:29:44,316 Speaker 1: Yes, exactly, exactly, but many of us lose. 580 00:29:44,116 --> 00:29:46,596 Speaker 2: That point of joy, that's simple point of joy because 581 00:29:46,596 --> 00:29:49,356 Speaker 2: we think that we're not deserving of it. And then 582 00:29:49,396 --> 00:29:54,116 Speaker 2: the fifth fee is vision, and vision has two prongs. 583 00:29:54,156 --> 00:30:00,516 Speaker 2: It's celebrating your winds and planning joy. And the celebrating 584 00:30:00,516 --> 00:30:02,756 Speaker 2: of the winds is something that I just I mean, 585 00:30:02,836 --> 00:30:05,036 Speaker 2: there was a large point in my life when I 586 00:30:05,116 --> 00:30:08,356 Speaker 2: kid you not my ivy le degrees were under my bed. 587 00:30:11,956 --> 00:30:15,076 Speaker 4: What was that for? Take your degrees and hang them up. 588 00:30:15,316 --> 00:30:19,396 Speaker 2: If you do something at work, plan a small celebration, 589 00:30:19,596 --> 00:30:23,236 Speaker 2: you know, like with my lab. When we finish our trainings, 590 00:30:23,676 --> 00:30:26,356 Speaker 2: everyone has to put it in a binder. And if 591 00:30:26,356 --> 00:30:28,676 Speaker 2: one of us finishes a big milestone, we'll meet in 592 00:30:28,716 --> 00:30:31,356 Speaker 2: the lab. We'll have like cupcakes, or we'll have a lunch. 593 00:30:31,756 --> 00:30:33,796 Speaker 2: We celebrate the small things that we used to take 594 00:30:33,836 --> 00:30:36,676 Speaker 2: for granted. It's important to have these things to look 595 00:30:36,716 --> 00:30:41,036 Speaker 2: forward to, to bond together and to represent the fact 596 00:30:41,036 --> 00:30:42,556 Speaker 2: that you didn't have to do what you did, but 597 00:30:42,596 --> 00:30:45,036 Speaker 2: you did it. And rather than going on to the 598 00:30:45,076 --> 00:30:48,676 Speaker 2: next let's take some time and reflect on this great 599 00:30:48,716 --> 00:30:51,556 Speaker 2: thing that you did. And it's a huge mind shift, 600 00:30:51,836 --> 00:30:53,716 Speaker 2: and so I tell myself that all the time. Like 601 00:30:53,996 --> 00:30:55,676 Speaker 2: the Judith I am today is so different than five 602 00:30:55,756 --> 00:30:57,556 Speaker 2: years ago because when I finished a training, I have 603 00:30:57,596 --> 00:30:59,316 Speaker 2: to do so many trainings for research. 604 00:30:59,916 --> 00:31:02,116 Speaker 4: I'm like, I did this training, I like put it 605 00:31:02,196 --> 00:31:02,916 Speaker 4: up on the board. 606 00:31:04,356 --> 00:31:08,196 Speaker 2: That's act and I'm like, now I'm worthy of a break, 607 00:31:08,236 --> 00:31:10,396 Speaker 2: and it's something I have to do myself, Like totally, 608 00:31:10,516 --> 00:31:13,116 Speaker 2: I did this, and now I get this break and 609 00:31:13,196 --> 00:31:16,596 Speaker 2: it has drastically changed my quality of life. And this 610 00:31:16,636 --> 00:31:19,076 Speaker 2: is not like big stuff, but it's so important. It 611 00:31:19,116 --> 00:31:21,556 Speaker 2: sends a message that I am a human being. I'm 612 00:31:21,636 --> 00:31:22,476 Speaker 2: not a human doing. 613 00:31:23,596 --> 00:31:26,636 Speaker 3: What is your experience like today, Judith, Like, as someone 614 00:31:26,676 --> 00:31:30,676 Speaker 3: who has high functioning depression, Like, do you still consider 615 00:31:30,716 --> 00:31:33,556 Speaker 3: it an active diagnosis? Is it something you continue to 616 00:31:33,596 --> 00:31:35,476 Speaker 3: work through? Or probably yes? 617 00:31:35,716 --> 00:31:38,796 Speaker 2: The bookstore is not something that encourages healing from high 618 00:31:38,796 --> 00:31:39,516 Speaker 2: functioning depression. 619 00:31:39,596 --> 00:31:40,676 Speaker 4: Let me just put it that way. 620 00:31:40,836 --> 00:31:43,276 Speaker 3: I was just gonna say, there is such an irony 621 00:31:43,316 --> 00:31:45,316 Speaker 3: to your story, right, which is that you had this 622 00:31:45,396 --> 00:31:47,676 Speaker 3: breaking point, but then through the work you've done on 623 00:31:47,756 --> 00:31:51,916 Speaker 3: high functioning depression, you kind of elevated into this superstar psychiatrist. 624 00:31:51,956 --> 00:31:54,396 Speaker 3: And I'm imagining your time is even more tax than 625 00:31:54,436 --> 00:31:58,076 Speaker 3: before given all your obligations. And so what is your 626 00:31:58,076 --> 00:32:00,556 Speaker 3: relationship like with high functioning depression? Like, how do you 627 00:32:00,636 --> 00:32:01,516 Speaker 3: keep things in check? 628 00:32:02,116 --> 00:32:03,716 Speaker 2: Well, you know, I had to let go of a 629 00:32:03,716 --> 00:32:05,876 Speaker 2: lot of things that I used to hold tight to. 630 00:32:06,596 --> 00:32:08,836 Speaker 2: There you used to be just belief that no one 631 00:32:08,836 --> 00:32:11,436 Speaker 2: can do it better than you, and I had to 632 00:32:11,516 --> 00:32:14,596 Speaker 2: challenge that worst case scenario. Many times we think, if 633 00:32:14,636 --> 00:32:17,716 Speaker 2: you don't do X, the worst thing will happen. And 634 00:32:17,756 --> 00:32:21,356 Speaker 2: now I've let go of so many things and I 635 00:32:21,476 --> 00:32:24,596 Speaker 2: just trust people more. I'm letting the worst thing happen, 636 00:32:24,636 --> 00:32:27,036 Speaker 2: which is nothing happened, Nothing that happened. 637 00:32:27,476 --> 00:32:29,596 Speaker 1: Yeah, in fact, I okay to ask for you. 638 00:32:30,436 --> 00:32:32,796 Speaker 2: I'm not in every single space, I'm not in every 639 00:32:32,836 --> 00:32:33,516 Speaker 2: single meeting. 640 00:32:33,636 --> 00:32:34,356 Speaker 4: I just let go. 641 00:32:34,836 --> 00:32:37,996 Speaker 2: And you know, I told you that this antedonia is contagious. 642 00:32:38,036 --> 00:32:40,556 Speaker 2: This joy is contagious too. When you relax and you 643 00:32:40,636 --> 00:32:42,556 Speaker 2: let people who want to help you help you, they're 644 00:32:42,636 --> 00:32:46,756 Speaker 2: so happy to help you. When you start to prioritize 645 00:32:46,836 --> 00:32:51,436 Speaker 2: joy and you slow down and you save your life, 646 00:32:51,676 --> 00:32:53,716 Speaker 2: others around you will see that too and they will 647 00:32:53,796 --> 00:32:54,796 Speaker 2: change as well. 648 00:32:54,876 --> 00:32:56,116 Speaker 4: It is. It's contagious. 649 00:32:57,156 --> 00:33:00,676 Speaker 3: As someone who you've mentioned you've experienced anedonia. I just 650 00:33:00,676 --> 00:33:02,316 Speaker 3: want to know if you can reflect on, like this 651 00:33:02,396 --> 00:33:06,436 Speaker 3: past week, what were your top moments of joy, just 652 00:33:06,436 --> 00:33:09,116 Speaker 3: to give people hope that they can reclaim what you've experience. 653 00:33:09,676 --> 00:33:13,196 Speaker 2: I got a new serum for my skin, and it's 654 00:33:13,236 --> 00:33:16,236 Speaker 2: something that I look forward to every day. As a child, 655 00:33:16,316 --> 00:33:18,316 Speaker 2: you know, my mom had four kids, and I grew 656 00:33:18,356 --> 00:33:21,316 Speaker 2: up in this tiny, one bedroom apartment, and you know, 657 00:33:21,556 --> 00:33:23,756 Speaker 2: when we bathed, she had to bathe us all together. 658 00:33:23,996 --> 00:33:25,916 Speaker 2: When she loationed us, she had to loation us all together. 659 00:33:25,956 --> 00:33:28,476 Speaker 2: So I was not someone who was raised gently like 660 00:33:28,556 --> 00:33:31,396 Speaker 2: caressing my face and skin. It was always this rushed, 661 00:33:31,436 --> 00:33:35,196 Speaker 2: hurried type of process. And I realized this later in 662 00:33:35,236 --> 00:33:38,196 Speaker 2: life that these type of rituals are really important for 663 00:33:38,236 --> 00:33:40,236 Speaker 2: sending a deeper message that you care about yourself, that 664 00:33:40,236 --> 00:33:40,756 Speaker 2: you're worthy. 665 00:33:41,076 --> 00:33:43,236 Speaker 4: So I look forward to my skin routine. 666 00:33:43,756 --> 00:33:44,196 Speaker 1: I love it. 667 00:33:44,276 --> 00:33:48,076 Speaker 2: I look forward to my bedtime routine. I just as 668 00:33:48,116 --> 00:33:51,076 Speaker 2: someone who used to pride themselves on like I only 669 00:33:51,076 --> 00:33:53,716 Speaker 2: got four hours of sleep or five hours. I am 670 00:33:54,396 --> 00:33:58,876 Speaker 2: like eight hour at night person. Like I pride myself 671 00:33:58,916 --> 00:34:02,476 Speaker 2: on that I protect my sleep. Sleep feels yummy again, 672 00:34:03,116 --> 00:34:04,556 Speaker 2: you know, like that sleep when you're a kid and 673 00:34:04,596 --> 00:34:06,316 Speaker 2: you used to feel like, oh yeah, I get this 674 00:34:06,396 --> 00:34:09,676 Speaker 2: yummy sleep again. And then nature. I'm Portunida, I'm from 675 00:34:09,676 --> 00:34:11,756 Speaker 2: the Caribbean. I grew up going to the beach every weekend. 676 00:34:12,516 --> 00:34:14,436 Speaker 2: I made it a point, and I was intentional to 677 00:34:14,476 --> 00:34:17,316 Speaker 2: live close to the water in Manhattan and really be 678 00:34:17,516 --> 00:34:20,316 Speaker 2: close to the water and close to nature. So that's 679 00:34:20,316 --> 00:34:21,676 Speaker 2: what brings me joy, very simple. 680 00:34:22,516 --> 00:34:23,916 Speaker 3: I know, I love it, and I was just gonna 681 00:34:23,916 --> 00:34:27,316 Speaker 3: see you mentioned Anaedonia can be contagious, but your joy 682 00:34:27,476 --> 00:34:28,156 Speaker 3: is contagious. 683 00:34:28,396 --> 00:34:29,596 Speaker 1: I've got the biggest. 684 00:34:29,276 --> 00:34:31,996 Speaker 3: Smile plastered on my face right now just hearing about 685 00:34:32,356 --> 00:34:34,756 Speaker 3: those moments. So I'm so glad you shared them with me, 686 00:34:34,836 --> 00:34:36,476 Speaker 3: and thank you so much for coming on the show. 687 00:34:36,596 --> 00:34:36,996 Speaker 4: Thank you. 688 00:34:59,316 --> 00:35:02,196 Speaker 3: If you or someone you love is struggling with depression, 689 00:35:02,476 --> 00:35:06,396 Speaker 3: health is available, call the National Alliance on Mental Illness 690 00:35:06,436 --> 00:35:10,516 Speaker 3: Helpline at one eight hundred ninety five ZO six' two six' 691 00:35:10,636 --> 00:35:15,116 Speaker 3: four for free confidential support. And resources you could also 692 00:35:15,196 --> 00:35:18,116 Speaker 3: find the number in our show notes and join me 693 00:35:18,196 --> 00:35:22,276 Speaker 3: next time for my Conversation With, jessica slice an author 694 00:35:22,316 --> 00:35:25,916 Speaker 3: who writes about living. With disability she talks about how 695 00:35:25,956 --> 00:35:28,356 Speaker 3: her disability renewed her relationship. 696 00:35:28,436 --> 00:35:32,996 Speaker 5: With herself for all THOSE years i thought that it 697 00:35:33,036 --> 00:35:36,676 Speaker 5: was in my control to, be perfect or to form a, 698 00:35:36,676 --> 00:35:40,796 Speaker 5: perfect life or to be, good enough and, BECOMING disabled, 699 00:35:40,916 --> 00:35:44,316 Speaker 5: i mean so little isn't my? Control NOW and i 700 00:35:44,556 --> 00:35:49,996 Speaker 5: like my life as a disabled person far MORE than 701 00:35:49,996 --> 00:35:50,596 Speaker 5: i liked my. 702 00:35:50,716 --> 00:35:54,156 Speaker 3: Life before that's next TIME On A slight Change. Of 703 00:35:54,196 --> 00:35:57,796 Speaker 3: plans see. YOU Then A slight Change of plans, is 704 00:35:57,876 --> 00:36:01,596 Speaker 3: created written and executive produced By Me. Maya Schunker The 705 00:36:01,676 --> 00:36:05,636 Speaker 3: slight changed family includes Our Showrunner, tyler green our Senior 706 00:36:05,796 --> 00:36:10,196 Speaker 3: Editor Kate, parkinson morgan Our Producers britain Cronin And, megan 707 00:36:10,276 --> 00:36:14,676 Speaker 3: lubin and our Sound Engineer. Erica Huang louis scara wrote 708 00:36:14,716 --> 00:36:17,796 Speaker 3: our delightful, theme Song And ginger smith helped arrange. THE 709 00:36:17,876 --> 00:36:20,756 Speaker 3: Vocals A slight Change of plans is a Production Of, 710 00:36:20,836 --> 00:36:24,316 Speaker 3: pushkin industries so big thanks to, everyone there and of 711 00:36:24,356 --> 00:36:27,956 Speaker 3: course a very special Thanks To. Jimmy lee you CAN 712 00:36:27,996 --> 00:36:30,796 Speaker 3: Follow A slight Change of Plans on instagram At Doctor. 713 00:36:30,916 --> 00:36:41,596 Speaker 1: Maya schunker see you. Next week