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Speaker 1: Body bags with Joseph Scott Morgan alas poor York. I

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Speaker 1: knew him, Horatio, a fellow of infinite jest, of most

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Speaker 1: excellent fancy. He has borne me on his back a

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Speaker 1: thousand times, And now how abandoned in my imagination it is.

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Speaker 1: My gorge rises at it. Here hung those lips that

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Speaker 1: I have kissed. I know not how oft where be

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Speaker 1: your jibes, now your gambles, your songs, their flashes of

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Speaker 1: merriment that were wont to set the table on a roar.

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Speaker 1: That's the fifth act of Hamlet. That's a seminal moment

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Speaker 1: in that play where Prince Hamlet is actually considering the

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Speaker 1: skull that has been taken up by one of the

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Speaker 1: grave diggers in Hamlet's world, and he's considering it as

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Speaker 1: he stares into those empty sockets. It's a moment where

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Speaker 1: I think that Hamlet comes to a realization about his

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Speaker 1: mortality and the mortality of his family and everybody that's

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Speaker 1: around him. And he's also longing for something in the

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Speaker 1: past because York was the court jester, he was the

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Speaker 1: person that entertained everybody. He's saying old jokes. Today, we're

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Speaker 1: going to explore an absolutely fascinating case that involves a

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Speaker 1: skull not too dissimilar from York, but a skull also

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Speaker 1: that at one point in time in life produced fine sounds.

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Speaker 1: It produced musical education for many people that had never

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Speaker 1: been trained in music. Today, we're going to have a

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Speaker 1: discussion about the discovered skull of Gertrude Elliot little Hell.

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Speaker 1: I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is Body Bags, Dave.

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Speaker 1: I am so excited about this episode. I was of

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Speaker 1: recent with my buddy David Middleman of Authorm Labs in

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Speaker 1: the Woodlands, Texas, just north of Houston. We visited for

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Speaker 1: some time at Crime Con in Nashville and he laid

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Speaker 1: this case on me and I had to share it

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Speaker 1: with you because you love history as much as I do,

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Speaker 1: and you talk about dragging history, kicking and screaming into

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Speaker 1: the modern.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: I don't know of a case like this, certainly that

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Speaker 1: we've covered on Body Bags ever, ever, ever, at all.

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Speaker 2: Everyone needs to hear this, Joe, Okay, everyone needs to

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Speaker 2: know that there was a skull partial remains found in

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Speaker 2: a bag in nineteen eighty five on the beach. Actually

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Speaker 2: it was on a small little channel island, but we're

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Speaker 2: talking Oxnard, calif Oxnard, not in the onion fields, Oxnard

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Speaker 2: by the beach in the water, right, a bag of

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Speaker 2: bones and the skull is in there. Nineteen eighty five.

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Speaker 2: So as police try to identify, Hey, we got a skull,

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Speaker 2: it's human. Got to figure out whose it is. So

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Speaker 2: nineteen eighty five, you're thinking probably in the last several years,

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Speaker 2: you know, it's because how does something end up in

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Speaker 2: a bag on the beach, right, And they do their

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Speaker 2: normal work that they would do in the mid eighties,

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Speaker 2: and they come up.

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Speaker 1: With nothing with with the limitations of the eighties.

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Speaker 2: Very limited compared to what we have now.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, oh boy.

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Speaker 2: But at the time they pretty they were feeling pretty

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Speaker 2: confident back in the mid eighties that they might be

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Speaker 2: able to figure out what's going on here. They didn't,

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Speaker 2: and it kind of sat there for a while when

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Speaker 2: they didn't have an immediate identification. Well, as the years

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Speaker 2: went on, it finally ends up with the National Missing

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Speaker 2: and Identified Person System name US. And this is like

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Speaker 2: in twenty sixteen. So you've got a skull found in

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Speaker 2: nineteen eighty five, cannot identify it, there is no ID.

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Speaker 2: But as things have advanced, NamUs has, hey, let's do

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Speaker 2: a remodeling, a reimagining of the skull and try to

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Speaker 2: put a face on this as somebody can recognize. It

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Speaker 2: could be a loved one, somebody they haven't seen in

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Speaker 2: a long time. Let's see what we can do. So

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Speaker 2: they did, and they did a clay rendering of the

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Speaker 2: skull and what it would look like as a face,

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Speaker 2: and they took pictures and they circulated it all around.

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Speaker 2: I mean, here's this unidentified person, the body found a

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Speaker 2: knight or the skull found in nineteen eighty five. Still nothing.

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Speaker 2: So Joseph Scott Morgan while we're at crime con says, dude,

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Speaker 2: you've got to see this. It's a skull found in

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Speaker 2: nineteen caleder ox in the color of Ventura County. Jane

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Speaker 2: Doe to Ventura County and he said, you're not going

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Speaker 2: to believe this, you know, you just this this goes

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Speaker 2: beyond what we know about body bags as a show.

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Speaker 2: So and in this particular case, we actually do have

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Speaker 2: what's left of a body in a bag. So body

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Speaker 2: bags the skull, called Jane Do. And after again nineteen

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Speaker 2: eighty five, Joe, and by the way, just so you know,

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Speaker 2: when you think, Hey, that was just a mid eighty's

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Speaker 2: not that long ago. Well, actually thirty nine years ago. Now, friends,

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Speaker 2: if you graduated from high school in nineteen eighty four, yes,

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Speaker 2: your fortieth anniversary is this year. Okay, you're red.

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Speaker 1: It's around the corner here.

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Speaker 2: Your party of three union is happening this summer right

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Speaker 2: before fall homecoming football game. Yes, you're old, Margaret, you know.

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Speaker 1: Let's let's grind it in there. Hey, I got to

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Speaker 1: tell you something when you know I've I've known David

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Speaker 1: for a few months now. I actually got to visit

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Speaker 1: ofthrom Labs, and I think we've talked about this before,

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Speaker 1: but I've got to tell you first off, for those

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Speaker 1: that have not met David, he is and I am not.

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Speaker 1: I don't think that I am overstepping my assessment here.

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Speaker 1: David is arguably, Yeah, I can say this one of

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Speaker 1: the brightest people I have ever encountered. And when it

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Speaker 1: comes to DNA, Dave, I want you to hear me. Man,

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Speaker 1: This man, as far as I'm concerned, is at the

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Speaker 1: same the same He's in the same strata as Elon Musk.

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Speaker 1: He is that brilliant specific to DNA, and you know

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Speaker 1: what and he has got this is a cool thing

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Speaker 1: about it. He has got a heart of gold in

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Speaker 1: the sense that he understands the power of the tool

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Speaker 1: that he wields. And people, there are a lot of

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Speaker 1: people out there that say or think of themselves as

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Speaker 1: doing good. He is one of these true individuals that

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Speaker 1: is an altruist. He is truly an altruist because his

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Speaker 1: goal is to get the unidentified identified. It's not simply

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Speaker 1: about solving crimes. It is helping people, Dave. And I

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Speaker 1: say all that to tell you, as you know, as

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Speaker 1: brilliant as David is, when he told me about this case,

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Speaker 1: you could see in his eyes they were literally sparkling,

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Speaker 1: because so, what are the odds going back all the

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Speaker 1: way to nineteen eighty five and then moving forward through

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Speaker 1: sixteen and all of the attempts to try to figure

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Speaker 1: this thing out.

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Speaker 2: Well, and it's kind of interesting to point out, you know,

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Speaker 2: just so you guys know, Joe had talked to me

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Speaker 2: about David Middleman and authorm and we both have I'm

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Speaker 2: familiar with it, probably more than most, but not nearly

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Speaker 2: as much as those in the industry, nearly as much

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Speaker 2: as you. But I was glad you kind of gave

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Speaker 2: me a little background on David Middleman and what kind

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Speaker 2: of a person he is, how he thinks, and things

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Speaker 2: like that, because if you remember, you guys were talking

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Speaker 2: in the VIP room at Crime Con and I'm just

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Speaker 2: I'm Dave Mac the radio idiot, you know, I just, hey,

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Speaker 2: how you doing good to see give me a hug.

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Speaker 2: And that's not David Middleman. If he doesn't know you,

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Speaker 2: he's going to look right through you because he doesn't

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Speaker 2: have time to mess with idiots, and he could sense

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Speaker 2: right away that guy's an idiot, and he just I mean,

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Speaker 2: it was like, okay, I'm going to be really polite

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Speaker 2: for what I have to endure. Now here's the beauty

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Speaker 2: of this. I knew this ahead of time. I knew

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Speaker 2: it going in, but I didn't know who it was.

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Speaker 2: I never met him before, and you were talking to

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Speaker 2: his wife.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, Kristen is equally as brilliant. What a oh my gosh,

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Speaker 1: what a team man.

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Speaker 2: I was so glad you had told me about them,

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Speaker 2: because when I realized, like you said, after I bum

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Speaker 2: rushed you and realized I just stepped into a really

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Speaker 2: intense intellectual conversation that I'm not allowed to partake because

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Speaker 2: I'm an idiot, and I realized I'm out numbered here.

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Speaker 2: So I realized quickly to get out before I was

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Speaker 2: found out, And which was the goal. You know, if

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Speaker 2: you're if you don't play on the same field as

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Speaker 2: other people, you got two choices. Prove you're an idiot

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Speaker 2: and stay there or leave. I grabbed my bagel and

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Speaker 2: went on down the road. But having noted that David

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Speaker 2: Middleman is that level of brilliance and his wife as well,

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Speaker 2: and what they're doing with Authram, believe me when I

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Speaker 2: tell you, friends, I thought that it was funded by

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Speaker 2: I don't know where.

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Speaker 1: I thought.

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Speaker 2: I actually thought maybe these types of places like Authorm

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Speaker 2: have like funding from I don't know, the unicorn. You

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Speaker 2: know that they have like this pot of gold at

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Speaker 2: the end of the rainbow, and they just delve into

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Speaker 2: it to do these incredible things. The science that they're

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Speaker 2: doing and that you know is there's so much science

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Speaker 2: that that takes place in the world today that has

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Speaker 2: no real world application for you and me. It does

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Speaker 2: for science, but not in our daily life. What Authorm

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Speaker 2: is doing is they're actually providing answers to people who

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Speaker 2: have questions about a loved one, they're actually doing good work,

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Speaker 2: they're actually changing lives, they're actually doing things that not

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Speaker 2: even that long ago couldn't even have been imagined by

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Speaker 2: the best think tank in the world.

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Speaker 1: And you're you're up in you're up in that strata.

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Speaker 1: I think when you begin to consider this as maybe

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Speaker 1: when we were kids and we were watching Star Trek

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Speaker 1: and they went into the transporter room and they flipped

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Speaker 1: a switch and everybody just kind of kind of disintegrates

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Speaker 1: and then reintegrates on the other end, and you think

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Speaker 1: that that's that's not possible. And obviously that's not possible

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Speaker 1: right now.

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Speaker 2: In our minds, he probably already hasn't figured out.

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Speaker 1: He probably does. He he is just that brilliant. And look,

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Speaker 1: they they have to this point really provided answers. They're

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Speaker 1: they're up, they're up the altitude right now, these cases

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Speaker 1: that they've provided are in excess of three hundred. But

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Speaker 1: when you consider how many of these unidentified bodies out there,

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Speaker 1: this is just this is just the start. And the

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Speaker 1: reason it kind of really pricks my heart, I think

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Speaker 1: is as a former death investigator, a medical legal death investigator,

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Speaker 1: Dave I stood over so many remains during the course

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Speaker 1: of my career that I had no idea. I had

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Speaker 1: no idea who this was. And unfortunately, you know, many

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Speaker 1: of the remains went into what we referred to as

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Speaker 1: a potter's field where and I've seen it, you know,

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Speaker 1: where the ground was trenched out. We would hold onto

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Speaker 1: remains as long as we could from a storage standpoint,

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Speaker 1: and they'd be mass buried. It was almost it had

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Speaker 1: this kind of it was. It was ominous to see it.

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Speaker 1: You know, you see images from like war zones where

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Speaker 1: people are being buried on masks and that might be

201
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Speaker 1: placed into a bag to have the dead, we'll have

202
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Speaker 1: these aluminum If you have an intact remain, we'll have

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Speaker 1: an aluminum idbate bracelet that's put around the wrist, one

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Speaker 1: that's put around the ankle, and they're placed into disaster

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Speaker 1: poles or body back and they're buried, you know, along

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Speaker 1: along the link of this trench. I've seen that actually happen.

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Speaker 1: I've borne witness to it, and it's the saddest thing.

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Speaker 1: And so many of these people, I thought, if I

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Speaker 1: could have just had answers. I actually had a discussion

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Speaker 1: with somebody a number of years ago that was working

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Speaker 1: at AFIP which back then was it. It doesn't exist

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Speaker 1: in the current format, but it's the Armed Forces Institute

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Speaker 1: of Pathology, you know, what they told me to I

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Speaker 1: was amazed by this. Did you know that we had

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Speaker 1: so many unidentified dead in the Civil War that a

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Speaker 1: lot of those skeletal remains were collected And to this day,

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Speaker 1: many of those remains remain in cardboard boxes and their

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Speaker 1: own shelves in DC and they can't they can't. The

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Speaker 1: story was, they will hold on to them for as

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Speaker 1: long as they can because they can't give these individuals

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Speaker 1: proper military burials. And I was fascinated by that, you know,

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Speaker 1: because there's a lot of unknown soldier graves out there

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Speaker 1: and all that sort of thing. And I was thinking,

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Speaker 1: in my wild the dreams, I was thinking, why wouldn't

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Speaker 1: that be something if if you could take technology like

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Speaker 1: this and apply it genetically to these unidentified remains that

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Speaker 1: we're holding right now and find maybe there's there's a

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Speaker 1: lineage there that you could trace down and try to determine.

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Speaker 1: You know, my family, my family as a result of

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Speaker 1: Civil War. I have two ancestors that never returned and

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Speaker 1: they never knew what happened to them, and so for me.

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Speaker 1: You know, I began to think about this, and then

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Speaker 1: I think about Gertrude. Don't you love that name?

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Speaker 2: It's a great name.

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Speaker 1: It is a great name. I began to think about Gertrude.

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Speaker 2: By the way, Gertrude is the name of the venture

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Speaker 2: county Jane. Do yeah mentioned your name yet?

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Speaker 1: And the fascinating thing about it is that Gertrude was

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Speaker 1: born in eighteen sixty four. The Civil War back East

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Speaker 1: was still raging. There were people dying and being killed

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Speaker 1: by the bushel. But today today we finally have some

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Speaker 1: answers about an incredible mystery. Dave, I have to make

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Speaker 1: a confession. I love old names. Well, I've got a

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Speaker 1: lot of them in my family. My grandmother, who I

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Speaker 1: referenced on this program multiple times, one of the sweetest

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Speaker 1: souls that ever walked the face of the planet, as

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Speaker 1: far as I'm concerned. She had I guess, I don't

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Speaker 1: know what it be called an antique name. It was

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Speaker 1: it was her Her name was Pearl. I had an

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Speaker 1: aunt named Roxy Unice. I'm not too particularly fond of

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Speaker 1: that Unice myrtle Wanita, which still is used today. And

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Speaker 1: then I've had Rubies and all kinds of these interesting

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Speaker 1: names that they.

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Speaker 2: Use, all the characters used in a Jim Croche song.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly, and they go back years and years. But

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Speaker 1: you know, the subject of today's episode led this remarkable

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Speaker 1: life for a woman that was born right in the

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Speaker 1: heart of the Victorian era here in the US, born

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Speaker 1: actually in Stockton, California.

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Speaker 2: Day And you know, when we look at Ventura County

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Speaker 2: Jane Do, her skull found in nineteen eighty five in

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Speaker 2: a bag. When it was first discovered and turned into police,

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Speaker 2: they thought that maybe we're investigating a murder. You know,

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Speaker 2: maybe this is somebody who has been recently killed and

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Speaker 2: somebody stashed the body. There's all kinds of things police

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Speaker 2: are looking at. But as they started investigating, they couldn't

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Speaker 2: find anything that fit. And again, this is nineteen eighty five,

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Speaker 2: and as we mentioned earlier, it took years to get

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Speaker 2: to the point where they could identify who this person was. So, Joe,

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Speaker 2: how is it possible that I find a skull in

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Speaker 2: nineteen eighty five and you're telling me that this Ventura

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Speaker 2: County Jane Do is a woman named Gertrude and that

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Speaker 2: she was born during the Civil War. How do we

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Speaker 2: go from nineteen eighty five to eighteen sixty four, And

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Speaker 2: I have you said nineteen sixty four, I was like, okay,

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Speaker 2: twenty one year old female, Okay, I got that. But

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Speaker 2: now we're talking one hundred and twenty one years old.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, isn't that quite something? And you know there was

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Speaker 1: an effort made back then to run through the normal

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Speaker 1: course of an investigation. Whenever you find a skull?

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Speaker 2: What is that normal thing, Joe? What happens if today?

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Speaker 2: If today, while I'm in the woods next door, walking

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Speaker 2: around with my grandson, and I find let's say a

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Speaker 2: partial skelet Let's say I find a skull in a

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Speaker 2: bag out in my forest right here, right, And I mean,

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Speaker 2: I'm alvious. I'm going to call somebody. I guess I'm

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Speaker 2: not calling Ghostbusters. I'm going to call the county.

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Speaker 1: And hey, you're going to punch in non Actually i'd.

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Speaker 2: Be calling you and James Shellna. Those are my first

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Speaker 2: two calls.

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Speaker 1: Don't call me, please, Joe? What do? What do I do?

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Speaker 2: Have a dead body here?

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Speaker 1: Call me and get a recommendation. My right, My My

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Speaker 1: recommendation will be three digits, not one one. And that's it.

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Speaker 2: I call Nancy Gracio day. You need an attorney, get

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Speaker 2: one now.

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Speaker 1: Uh yeah. So if you if you do find a

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Speaker 1: h even any element of what you believe is a human,

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Speaker 1: a human sculptor, remain the most important thing you can do,

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Speaker 1: even if it turns out because the lines share people

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Speaker 1: that find a skeletal remain I've had this happen are

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Speaker 1: not finding human remains most of the time. It's amazing.

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Speaker 1: It seems like the most of the remains that I

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Speaker 1: would have people show up to the medical examiner's office

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Speaker 1: with or I would be summoned out on turned out

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Speaker 1: to be hog bones most of the time. And hog yeah,

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Speaker 1: some type of pig that had been barbecued and they

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Speaker 1: had been they'd been tossed away. You know. It's yeah,

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Speaker 1: I know, it's it's one of those things where you're

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Speaker 1: generally not going to come across it. You know, who

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Speaker 1: finds more human remains than humans are dogs, and this

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Speaker 1: happens a lot. Dogs love dogs love skulls, and they

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Speaker 1: will pick up a skull. I cannot tell you how

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Speaker 1: many of these cases I've got, some actually as morbid

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Speaker 1: as it is, some kind of humor stories behind these

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Speaker 1: these events. But I would have families that would say,

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Speaker 1: oh my god, I looked out in the yard and

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Speaker 1: you know, uh, you know, Fido is playing with a skull.

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Speaker 1: Can you imagine this? Well, what does a skull look like? Well,

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Speaker 1: to a dog, first off, it looks like a ball.

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Speaker 1: Have you ever seen a dog take a ball and

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Speaker 1: put it between their paws and play with it and

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Speaker 1: that sort of thing. And also secondarily, they're at a

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Speaker 1: you know, at a very base level, they're seeking protein.

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Speaker 1: That's what that's what carnivores do. Uh. They want to

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Speaker 1: bite into that bone, and they'll gnaw on these bones.

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Speaker 1: And they've got these you know, skulls have real weird

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Speaker 1: kind of angles, uh, and they will wrap their paws

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Speaker 1: around them and begin to gnaw on bones. So this

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Speaker 1: is not unusual. But this is not the case with

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Speaker 1: Gertrude remains. You actually find them in a back and

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Speaker 1: that that goes to proof that first off, some other

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Speaker 1: human has handled this item, because skulls just don't wind

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Speaker 1: up in a bag, all right, particularly in a modern

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Speaker 1: context like this, and it's tossed away. So when we

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Speaker 1: would go to a scene, if we had a single

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Speaker 1: skeletal element, we have to work on the assumption that

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Speaker 1: there are other remains around there, and you go to

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Speaker 1: where that skull is located, that is essentially ground zero,

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Speaker 1: and everything else radiates out from that where you're searching

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Speaker 1: this entire area for any other skeletal remains, because look,

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Speaker 1: you've got a human skull. Why do you have a

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Speaker 1: human skull? Why is it not buried somewhere or in

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Speaker 1: case somewhere, Why is it not in a mausoleum, or

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Speaker 1: why is it not in a coffin six feet under?

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Speaker 1: So you have major questions and it's a horrific thing

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Speaker 1: to come across, obviously, but for a forensic scientist, it's

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Speaker 1: very intriguing.

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Speaker 2: Joe, how do you get to that point with where

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Speaker 2: you have a skull and you actually do start the

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Speaker 2: identification process as they did in nineteen eighty five finding

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Speaker 2: a skull in a bag, the normal process? What would

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Speaker 2: it be because not everybody a lot. It costs money

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Speaker 2: to go and do a lot of the DNA testing,

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Speaker 2: and this is beyond that because you are dealing with

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Speaker 2: a skull, you're not dealing with the whole body. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: where does you begin?

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Speaker 1: Well, okay, let's go back to nineteen eighty five. We're

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Speaker 1: just in the wake of Sir Alec Jeffrey, who was

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Speaker 1: the first person to actually apply in a real sense

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Speaker 1: DNA technology DNA science to crom science. Okay, so that's

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Speaker 1: where that kind of so we're literally, you know, kind

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Speaker 1: of in the immediate wake of that nineteen eighty five.

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Speaker 1: This is still brand new technology and it had not

365
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Speaker 1: it had not kind of filtered down. And Sir Alex

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Speaker 1: is actually a bread So that's where it was first used.

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Speaker 1: And so it's you. It hasn't made it. I'll put

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Speaker 1: it to this way. It hasn't made it at stock

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Speaker 1: in California at this point in time and nineteen eighty five,

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Speaker 1: So what we would have done back then is first

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Speaker 1: thing you do, you're going to reach out to a

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Speaker 1: forensic anthropologist and they're to this is what they're going

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Speaker 1: to do. They're going to race, they're going to sex,

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Speaker 1: they're going to age and assess for any kind of

375
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Speaker 1: trauma that skull. That's what they're going to do. So

376
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Speaker 1: they're going to try to just visually because races are

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Speaker 1: different and the morphology of their skulls, there are certain

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Speaker 1: markers that anthropologists look for. They're not as distinct as

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Speaker 1: they used to be because you have a lot of

380
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Speaker 1: genetic overlap nowadays as opposed in the past where there

381
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Speaker 1: was this kind of separation. So it's kind of a

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Speaker 1: finer science. Now you have this idea of sex, and

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Speaker 1: sex again is one of these things that's I guess

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Speaker 1: some people could say that it is kind of subjective,

385
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Speaker 1: but there's a lot of considerations that anthropologists run through

386
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Speaker 1: this list of things where these markers that they're looking

387
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Speaker 1: for that would give you an indication of a skull

388
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Speaker 1: and in determination of gender with a skull, what we're

389
00:25:39,080 --> 00:25:42,160
Speaker 1: looking for in that sense. And I love these terms

390
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Speaker 1: that anthropologists used. That we use the term robust when

391
00:25:48,720 --> 00:25:52,000
Speaker 1: referring to a male skull. And here's a term that

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Speaker 1: not everybody hears on a regular basis when it comes

393
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Speaker 1: to female skulls, that we use the term grassisle and

394
00:26:00,560 --> 00:26:05,000
Speaker 1: grass isle actually means fine. You know, like you and

395
00:26:05,040 --> 00:26:07,719
Speaker 1: I we you and I have these kind of protuberant

396
00:26:07,800 --> 00:26:11,119
Speaker 1: brow lines, you know, as males kind of robust up here,

397
00:26:11,560 --> 00:26:15,520
Speaker 1: the bony prominence on the back of our skull, the excipitable, uh,

398
00:26:16,320 --> 00:26:19,760
Speaker 1: protuberance that's back there. They're kind of they're there, you know,

399
00:26:19,800 --> 00:26:23,919
Speaker 1: you can see it. You know, you know where you know, uh,

400
00:26:24,640 --> 00:26:30,359
Speaker 1: we're that way. Whereas a female skull that would come

401
00:26:30,400 --> 00:26:36,000
Speaker 1: from similar races, that similar ages, is going to have

402
00:26:36,200 --> 00:26:38,720
Speaker 1: a finer appearance to it. So you'll have this kind

403
00:26:38,760 --> 00:26:42,280
Speaker 1: of grass ale nature that's not robust, you know, like

404
00:26:42,320 --> 00:26:45,160
Speaker 1: a male skull, it's going to be a bit finer.

405
00:26:45,240 --> 00:26:47,679
Speaker 1: And so that's that's one of the things that they

406
00:26:47,720 --> 00:26:49,560
Speaker 1: would have done back then. And then they're going to

407
00:26:49,640 --> 00:26:53,840
Speaker 1: look at age, age at the time of death. So

408
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Speaker 1: let's see, how can we describe this. One of the

409
00:26:57,480 --> 00:27:00,199
Speaker 1: first things that you look for if their teeth. You

410
00:27:00,240 --> 00:27:03,320
Speaker 1: look for wear patterns in the teeth. You know, you

411
00:27:03,359 --> 00:27:05,840
Speaker 1: can determine what side of the mouth somebody chews on,

412
00:27:05,920 --> 00:27:09,560
Speaker 1: for instance, And I ask my kids at Jacksonville State

413
00:27:09,640 --> 00:27:12,000
Speaker 1: all the time when I'm teaching, I do it. I

414
00:27:12,160 --> 00:27:15,320
Speaker 1: teach a class called Clandestine Graves and it's a blend

415
00:27:15,359 --> 00:27:21,080
Speaker 1: of obviously clandestine burials, but also forensic anthropology and also osteology.

416
00:27:21,119 --> 00:27:23,280
Speaker 1: And I'll ask them, okay, everybody, take the tip of

417
00:27:23,320 --> 00:27:25,280
Speaker 1: your tongue and run it along the surface of your

418
00:27:25,320 --> 00:27:28,399
Speaker 1: teeth right now, can you determine which side of the

419
00:27:28,520 --> 00:27:32,920
Speaker 1: mouth your mouth you dependently chew chew with and most

420
00:27:33,000 --> 00:27:35,359
Speaker 1: people are right, they chew on the right side, and

421
00:27:35,400 --> 00:27:37,680
Speaker 1: so the wear pattern on the teeth will be worn

422
00:27:37,760 --> 00:27:40,240
Speaker 1: down more on that side as opposed to the left. Now,

423
00:27:40,280 --> 00:27:43,480
Speaker 1: as we get older, teeth begin to wear down. That's

424
00:27:43,480 --> 00:27:48,439
Speaker 1: one of the ways we age age skulls. Also, where

425
00:27:47,680 --> 00:27:51,800
Speaker 1: our sutures fuse together at the top of our head.

426
00:27:52,119 --> 00:27:54,280
Speaker 1: You know, you think about the font andels that babies

427
00:27:54,280 --> 00:27:57,800
Speaker 1: the soft spots. You've got one that's antiar and posterior

428
00:27:57,920 --> 00:28:01,600
Speaker 1: front in the back well that fuse together. And you know, Dave,

429
00:28:01,680 --> 00:28:04,959
Speaker 1: after a period of time, those little lines that you

430
00:28:05,000 --> 00:28:07,800
Speaker 1: see any kind of skull that you see, like there'll

431
00:28:07,840 --> 00:28:10,480
Speaker 1: be a model of it, like at Halloween. You know,

432
00:28:10,920 --> 00:28:12,440
Speaker 1: you can see the skull and they have these little

433
00:28:12,480 --> 00:28:15,760
Speaker 1: lines on those are those are suture lines. That's what

434
00:28:15,760 --> 00:28:17,880
Speaker 1: they're referred to as, and it's where the skull kind

435
00:28:17,880 --> 00:28:21,119
Speaker 1: of locks together. All over a period of time through life,

436
00:28:22,119 --> 00:28:25,800
Speaker 1: those areas begin to wear down and you actually have

437
00:28:25,880 --> 00:28:29,800
Speaker 1: something that's referred to as suture line of bliteration. So

438
00:28:29,880 --> 00:28:33,440
Speaker 1: the more that those are worn down, the more that

439
00:28:33,440 --> 00:28:36,119
Speaker 1: those are worn down, you know, the older the person is.

440
00:28:36,480 --> 00:28:38,200
Speaker 1: You've even got them on the roof of your mouth.

441
00:28:38,240 --> 00:28:41,240
Speaker 1: I did a study at one point Tom on what

442
00:28:41,360 --> 00:28:48,600
Speaker 1: was it called palatine suture line obliteration, and I presented

443
00:28:48,640 --> 00:28:53,240
Speaker 1: a paper or talk. When Tom and your palaton suture

444
00:28:53,720 --> 00:28:55,840
Speaker 1: that's that's in the roof of your mouth, what would

445
00:28:55,880 --> 00:28:58,720
Speaker 1: commonly be you You actually have suture lines in the

446
00:28:58,800 --> 00:29:02,400
Speaker 1: roof of your mouth, just chewing your mouth moving all

447
00:29:02,440 --> 00:29:05,320
Speaker 1: these years. And it seems very subtle in life. But

448
00:29:05,360 --> 00:29:07,560
Speaker 1: there's where I mean, if you just take if you

449
00:29:07,600 --> 00:29:10,960
Speaker 1: grab a handful of your hair, or pressure your fingers

450
00:29:11,000 --> 00:29:13,960
Speaker 1: down onto your scalp and move it back and forth,

451
00:29:14,640 --> 00:29:18,360
Speaker 1: that seems very passive. But just imagine how many times

452
00:29:18,440 --> 00:29:21,360
Speaker 1: you smile, you frown, you raise your eyebrows over the

453
00:29:21,400 --> 00:29:27,560
Speaker 1: course of your life, the suture lines begin to wear. Okay,

454
00:29:28,000 --> 00:29:32,280
Speaker 1: So back then in nineteen eighty five, that's one of

455
00:29:32,320 --> 00:29:36,480
Speaker 1: the things that that's really the singular tool that they

456
00:29:36,480 --> 00:29:39,640
Speaker 1: would have had to have worked with. And I can

457
00:29:39,760 --> 00:29:43,520
Speaker 1: almost predict what had happened at Ventura County at the

458
00:29:43,520 --> 00:29:48,440
Speaker 1: Medical Examiner's office. Dave that skull had been sitting on

459
00:29:48,480 --> 00:29:53,360
Speaker 1: a shelf, and they probably convened a committee at the

460
00:29:53,400 --> 00:29:57,080
Speaker 1: Medical Examiner's office, and you know, a few years later, Look,

461
00:29:57,120 --> 00:30:00,600
Speaker 1: we've had how many how many you know, hey, hey folks,

462
00:30:00,680 --> 00:30:03,040
Speaker 1: how many unidentified remains do we have? And they've got

463
00:30:03,040 --> 00:30:05,040
Speaker 1: a log of them, trust me, and they'll go through

464
00:30:05,040 --> 00:30:06,880
Speaker 1: it and say, oh wow, this is the oldest. Let's

465
00:30:06,880 --> 00:30:08,680
Speaker 1: see if we can dig into this a little bit.

466
00:30:09,160 --> 00:30:13,160
Speaker 1: Now it's twenty sixteen, all these years later, let's see

467
00:30:13,200 --> 00:30:18,120
Speaker 1: if technology will reveal anything. The problem is is that

468
00:30:18,200 --> 00:30:21,440
Speaker 1: when they first started, I might catch him flag for this,

469
00:30:21,640 --> 00:30:27,440
Speaker 1: but I don't really care. The clay modeling. Now, I

470
00:30:27,480 --> 00:30:32,000
Speaker 1: don't have much of an artistic eye, but it's rare

471
00:30:32,080 --> 00:30:35,600
Speaker 1: that I will see a clay model rendering that looks

472
00:30:35,680 --> 00:30:39,600
Speaker 1: spot on to anybody. But here's the rope with this

473
00:30:39,680 --> 00:30:46,600
Speaker 1: as well. That clay model that they were trying to

474
00:30:46,640 --> 00:30:52,000
Speaker 1: breathe life back into that person had been dead for

475
00:30:52,120 --> 00:31:12,800
Speaker 1: over a century. I think that what many people might

476
00:31:12,840 --> 00:31:16,080
Speaker 1: not know about Dave and I we both love old movies.

477
00:31:16,160 --> 00:31:23,040
Speaker 1: Particularly We're always throwing lines from from mel Brooks movies

478
00:31:23,080 --> 00:31:25,720
Speaker 1: back and forth at one another. And I think I

479
00:31:25,760 --> 00:31:28,280
Speaker 1: can speak for you, Dave. One of your favorites is,

480
00:31:29,080 --> 00:31:34,320
Speaker 1: as is mine, is young Frankenstein or frankf. Einstein. There

481
00:31:34,320 --> 00:31:37,560
Speaker 1: you are an igor and you know, one of the

482
00:31:37,920 --> 00:31:43,000
Speaker 1: one of the essential pieces to that hilarious movie is

483
00:31:43,000 --> 00:31:49,600
Speaker 1: that they're trying to create the Frankenstein monster and grave

484
00:31:49,680 --> 00:31:53,760
Speaker 1: robbery is involved in that. And isn't there some indication

485
00:31:53,920 --> 00:31:56,960
Speaker 1: that that's what's involved case.

486
00:31:56,920 --> 00:32:00,120
Speaker 2: In this case? Look, you have a skull fan in

487
00:32:00,120 --> 00:32:02,880
Speaker 2: a back in nineteen eighty five. It takes twenty one

488
00:32:02,920 --> 00:32:05,440
Speaker 2: years before they can even do the clay, had, you know,

489
00:32:05,840 --> 00:32:09,040
Speaker 2: the reimagining of what this person may have looked like.

490
00:32:09,600 --> 00:32:13,480
Speaker 2: And twenty one years from the time the skull is found,

491
00:32:13,480 --> 00:32:17,240
Speaker 2: and that's all they really have. And it took a tip.

492
00:32:17,200 --> 00:32:20,040
Speaker 1: When it comes to Gertrude. They did have a lead

493
00:32:20,200 --> 00:32:21,800
Speaker 1: on grave robbers, didn't they.

494
00:32:22,080 --> 00:32:23,280
Speaker 2: And that was the tip. I think that was a

495
00:32:23,320 --> 00:32:26,480
Speaker 2: tip that was called in And ultimately once they realized

496
00:32:26,520 --> 00:32:30,040
Speaker 2: they were dealing with somebody not of you know, not

497
00:32:30,200 --> 00:32:32,520
Speaker 2: recent and I think it opened them up because, like

498
00:32:32,560 --> 00:32:34,520
Speaker 2: I said, the clay, the whole idea of doing the

499
00:32:34,520 --> 00:32:39,480
Speaker 2: clay in twenty sixteen was hoping somebody would recognize this person.

500
00:32:39,920 --> 00:32:43,760
Speaker 2: And it's at the age that they think that the

501
00:32:43,800 --> 00:32:48,120
Speaker 2: person died and does anybody is this your daughter, your mom,

502
00:32:48,240 --> 00:32:52,520
Speaker 2: your aunt, whatever, Assuming it was a contemporary skull. But

503
00:32:52,640 --> 00:32:55,200
Speaker 2: then they did get a tip and that opened them

504
00:32:55,280 --> 00:32:57,080
Speaker 2: up to okay, now we got to really look. But

505
00:32:57,320 --> 00:33:00,560
Speaker 2: they had to go the DNA route, and it was

506
00:33:00,840 --> 00:33:04,360
Speaker 2: this is what really fascinates me. It's the DNA that

507
00:33:04,400 --> 00:33:07,360
Speaker 2: we hear about all the time solving crimes, but in

508
00:33:07,400 --> 00:33:11,760
Speaker 2: this case, it's not just the DNA, because the investigators

509
00:33:11,800 --> 00:33:14,280
Speaker 2: had to take the information they were getting back about

510
00:33:14,320 --> 00:33:17,320
Speaker 2: the DNA and then tracing it back, they had to

511
00:33:17,360 --> 00:33:20,720
Speaker 2: find something in compare it to yes, we have DNA

512
00:33:20,800 --> 00:33:24,680
Speaker 2: out of this skull, but it doesn't mean anything unless

513
00:33:24,720 --> 00:33:28,080
Speaker 2: somebody else has either put something up that could be found,

514
00:33:28,160 --> 00:33:30,600
Speaker 2: you know, twenty three ande meters or whatever. I mean,

515
00:33:30,680 --> 00:33:34,160
Speaker 2: there are so many things that are not happening for

516
00:33:34,360 --> 00:33:37,680
Speaker 2: every person on planet Earth. Where do you go? So

517
00:33:38,280 --> 00:33:43,120
Speaker 2: they end up having to go to Authorm. And the

518
00:33:43,160 --> 00:33:45,640
Speaker 2: part that bothers me, Joe, and I really mean this

519
00:33:46,640 --> 00:33:51,080
Speaker 2: that Authorm has to crowdfund if it's like or I do,

520
00:33:51,400 --> 00:33:53,719
Speaker 2: if it's my relative, if it's something I'm working on

521
00:33:54,240 --> 00:33:56,480
Speaker 2: that they don't have. And I did think that there

522
00:33:56,600 --> 00:33:59,040
Speaker 2: was for some reason. You know, we hear so many,

523
00:33:59,800 --> 00:34:02,760
Speaker 2: so many people of great wealth that donate money to

524
00:34:02,840 --> 00:34:05,920
Speaker 2: worthy causes, and I'm thinking this is something that should

525
00:34:05,960 --> 00:34:09,160
Speaker 2: be so funded. These people should these are the first

526
00:34:09,200 --> 00:34:12,399
Speaker 2: people on planet Earth that should have flying cars. That's

527
00:34:12,440 --> 00:34:15,320
Speaker 2: the kind of work they're doing. You know, they have

528
00:34:15,400 --> 00:34:16,520
Speaker 2: everything and they don't.

529
00:34:16,719 --> 00:34:18,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, I know, and you want to you want to

530
00:34:18,920 --> 00:34:21,879
Speaker 1: try to aid with this as much as you can.

531
00:34:22,040 --> 00:34:26,360
Speaker 1: And but you know, that's that's the beauty of what

532
00:34:26,600 --> 00:34:32,439
Speaker 1: AUTHRM has developed. David. David has a very specific methodology

533
00:34:32,520 --> 00:34:36,560
Speaker 1: that he has developed over and I urge everybody to

534
00:34:36,640 --> 00:34:41,799
Speaker 1: visit authorm's website authroom dot com. And what what was

535
00:34:41,840 --> 00:34:47,759
Speaker 1: applied here was UH a methodology that that David has

536
00:34:47,960 --> 00:34:54,480
Speaker 1: developed called forensic grade genome sequencing. And so with this,

537
00:34:54,480 --> 00:34:59,720
Speaker 1: this this tool that this man has created is almost

538
00:34:59,840 --> 00:35:04,200
Speaker 1: my un blowing. He can take he can actually take

539
00:35:05,080 --> 00:35:09,160
Speaker 1: samples from a skull that is this old day UH

540
00:35:09,640 --> 00:35:11,839
Speaker 1: and be able to render it down so that he

541
00:35:11,880 --> 00:35:17,440
Speaker 1: can extricate a DNA sample from this. And from this,

542
00:35:17,600 --> 00:35:21,520
Speaker 1: they build this out, They build it out because at Authoram,

543
00:35:21,560 --> 00:35:24,640
Speaker 1: not only do they have these scientists that work at

544
00:35:24,640 --> 00:35:28,759
Speaker 1: a level that I really cannot intellectually appreciate. I'm not

545
00:35:28,880 --> 00:35:30,240
Speaker 1: at I'm not at that level.

546
00:35:30,440 --> 00:35:32,120
Speaker 2: You were telling me they can only work for forty

547
00:35:32,160 --> 00:35:32,799
Speaker 2: five minutes on it.

548
00:35:33,040 --> 00:35:36,640
Speaker 1: They do so in Yeah, it's very intense, it's labor intensive.

549
00:35:36,920 --> 00:35:40,759
Speaker 1: We're you're talking about doing these fine skills. You know

550
00:35:40,800 --> 00:35:43,000
Speaker 1: that they're and they have to be very very careful.

551
00:35:43,239 --> 00:35:46,200
Speaker 1: And it's like being in a surgery suite. You have

552
00:35:46,280 --> 00:35:50,200
Speaker 1: the potential to contaminate everything. Wow. So when you go there,

553
00:35:50,239 --> 00:35:53,399
Speaker 1: you see them, they're they're liking spacesuits. Man, I mean,

554
00:35:53,480 --> 00:35:57,680
Speaker 1: it's I know that sounds it sounds fantastical, it's but

555
00:35:57,840 --> 00:36:04,720
Speaker 1: they're they're no, really, and and they David and Kristen

556
00:36:04,800 --> 00:36:10,399
Speaker 1: have created this environment to facilitate all of this. And man,

557
00:36:10,480 --> 00:36:13,439
Speaker 1: let me tell you, they've built this thing up from

558
00:36:13,480 --> 00:36:16,960
Speaker 1: the ground up. Now, they obviously have investors that are

559
00:36:17,000 --> 00:36:19,560
Speaker 1: helping them, but you know, on day to day cases

560
00:36:19,600 --> 00:36:22,960
Speaker 1: they need assistance. And so when it comes to Gertrude,

561
00:36:23,440 --> 00:36:30,600
Speaker 1: when David's team utilized this forensic grade genome sequencing methodology,

562
00:36:30,800 --> 00:36:35,040
Speaker 1: they actually have genetic sciences that are there working these cases.

563
00:36:35,520 --> 00:36:41,000
Speaker 1: They've got another section within that laboratory, Dave, that are genealogists.

564
00:36:41,719 --> 00:36:44,960
Speaker 1: I mean, can you he employs full time genealogists. How

565
00:36:45,000 --> 00:36:47,400
Speaker 1: amazing is that, so they take.

566
00:36:47,560 --> 00:36:49,520
Speaker 2: That's what you would have to have with this though, and.

567
00:36:49,560 --> 00:36:52,080
Speaker 1: You would have to you're going to be walking around

568
00:36:52,360 --> 00:36:55,600
Speaker 1: in the dark without a genealogist as a part of

569
00:36:55,640 --> 00:37:00,399
Speaker 1: this because they their worldview. You take the complexity of

570
00:37:00,680 --> 00:37:05,160
Speaker 1: this kind of genomic mapping that's going on and development

571
00:37:05,320 --> 00:37:08,480
Speaker 1: of you know, through the sequencing that they do, and

572
00:37:08,520 --> 00:37:11,200
Speaker 1: that's all grand, and it's all fine, but how are

573
00:37:11,200 --> 00:37:12,759
Speaker 1: you going to plug it in? Well, they've got a

574
00:37:12,760 --> 00:37:17,480
Speaker 1: couple of open source databases. Twenty three and meters, by

575
00:37:17,480 --> 00:37:20,839
Speaker 1: the way, is not part of it, okay, but there

576
00:37:20,920 --> 00:37:25,440
Speaker 1: are these open source databases which are limiting that people

577
00:37:25,560 --> 00:37:31,840
Speaker 1: have donated genetic samplitude and Dave, they were actually able

578
00:37:32,719 --> 00:37:34,600
Speaker 1: to find Gertrude's relatives.

579
00:37:35,360 --> 00:37:38,799
Speaker 2: That's what got me about the actual investigation that goes

580
00:37:38,840 --> 00:37:43,040
Speaker 2: into this, beyond just the DNA. A lot of us

581
00:37:43,080 --> 00:37:45,120
Speaker 2: tend to think, well, they have DNA, what else do

582
00:37:45,160 --> 00:37:47,359
Speaker 2: they need? And it's like, because we're not all in

583
00:37:47,400 --> 00:37:50,279
Speaker 2: and data, you know, we're there are those of us

584
00:37:50,280 --> 00:37:53,200
Speaker 2: in the political paranoids that think everything we have is

585
00:37:53,239 --> 00:37:55,880
Speaker 2: being monitored by government it's own level. But when it

586
00:37:55,880 --> 00:37:58,040
Speaker 2: comes to actually doing it in real world stuff, it

587
00:37:58,040 --> 00:38:01,080
Speaker 2: doesn't exist, and these people have figured out, these people

588
00:38:01,120 --> 00:38:04,040
Speaker 2: meaning scientists, the genomists and all that, that they get

589
00:38:04,080 --> 00:38:07,680
Speaker 2: together and build the genealogy of a family tree based

590
00:38:07,719 --> 00:38:10,640
Speaker 2: on a skull that was found in Ventura County, California,

591
00:38:10,760 --> 00:38:13,120
Speaker 2: that was in a bag with rocks in it to

592
00:38:13,239 --> 00:38:15,560
Speaker 2: soak it to the bottom of the of the channel

593
00:38:15,880 --> 00:38:19,440
Speaker 2: where it was found. It boggles my mind. But Joe,

594
00:38:20,120 --> 00:38:23,520
Speaker 2: how once they're able to start finding the building the

595
00:38:23,560 --> 00:38:26,839
Speaker 2: family tree, and they were given a tip that there

596
00:38:26,880 --> 00:38:29,960
Speaker 2: had been a grave robbing and that this skull may

597
00:38:29,960 --> 00:38:32,600
Speaker 2: have been part of that. I have yet to find

598
00:38:32,640 --> 00:38:34,880
Speaker 2: out why. I don't know the why. I know the

599
00:38:34,880 --> 00:38:37,200
Speaker 2: grave robbing tip came in and I know police were

600
00:38:37,200 --> 00:38:40,640
Speaker 2: able to utilize that in finding out what really transpired.

601
00:38:41,520 --> 00:38:44,120
Speaker 2: But do we don't know why they why this grave

602
00:38:44,239 --> 00:38:46,360
Speaker 2: was disturbed or even when do we know?

603
00:38:46,760 --> 00:38:50,960
Speaker 1: And I've worked cases of grave robbery before. Yeah, they're horrible.

604
00:38:51,080 --> 00:38:53,640
Speaker 1: I mean, they're absolutely horrible, and people do it for

605
00:38:53,680 --> 00:38:57,239
Speaker 1: any number of reasons. You have these people that are

606
00:38:57,280 --> 00:38:59,240
Speaker 1: out there that think that they're going to go conduct

607
00:38:59,239 --> 00:39:05,640
Speaker 1: some kind of serah, so they revictimize families by virtue

608
00:39:05,920 --> 00:39:08,280
Speaker 1: of and what they're involved in I'll say it very plainly.

609
00:39:08,520 --> 00:39:13,640
Speaker 1: This is desecration. Yeah, this is desecration of a tomb.

610
00:39:13,880 --> 00:39:19,200
Speaker 1: And in Gertrude's case, they had a family mausoleum. So

611
00:39:19,239 --> 00:39:24,120
Speaker 1: you've got remains dave that are presumably above ground. So

612
00:39:24,239 --> 00:39:27,760
Speaker 1: remember how I mentioned like groundwater impacting mains and all that,

613
00:39:27,760 --> 00:39:30,400
Speaker 1: that's not what you have necessarily in this case, you

614
00:39:30,440 --> 00:39:34,799
Speaker 1: have somebody that is actually going into into a mausoleum.

615
00:39:35,200 --> 00:39:38,840
Speaker 1: And you know, I know I run on about New Orleans,

616
00:39:38,880 --> 00:39:41,560
Speaker 1: my hometown, but for those of you within the sound

617
00:39:41,560 --> 00:39:43,880
Speaker 1: of my voice, if you've ever driven through New Orleans,

618
00:39:43,920 --> 00:39:47,440
Speaker 1: one of the things we're famous for our graves. We

619
00:39:47,520 --> 00:39:51,080
Speaker 1: have above ground graves because the water is it's it,

620
00:39:51,840 --> 00:39:54,279
Speaker 1: you know, like I said, it destroys everything that we

621
00:39:54,360 --> 00:39:57,120
Speaker 1: can't bury because we're beneath sea level there, so you

622
00:39:57,160 --> 00:40:01,360
Speaker 1: have to bury above ground. And what happened and what

623
00:40:01,480 --> 00:40:05,719
Speaker 1: has happened in previous cases, you know they will. They

624
00:40:05,719 --> 00:40:09,080
Speaker 1: will intrude into like a family mausoleum, make it through

625
00:40:09,120 --> 00:40:12,359
Speaker 1: the door, the access door, which is no small feat.

626
00:40:12,400 --> 00:40:14,719
Speaker 1: Some of these things are built like bank faults. You

627
00:40:14,800 --> 00:40:18,879
Speaker 1: have the purpose to do this. And then if you've

628
00:40:18,920 --> 00:40:22,520
Speaker 1: ever looked inside of mausoleum, their works of art. I've

629
00:40:22,560 --> 00:40:25,799
Speaker 1: seen some of the most beautiful, beautiful press with stained

630
00:40:25,840 --> 00:40:28,719
Speaker 1: glass windows and all this stuff in marble. And they'll

631
00:40:28,719 --> 00:40:31,000
Speaker 1: go in and they'll take a sledgehammer. I don't we

632
00:40:31,120 --> 00:40:33,160
Speaker 1: don't know that that's necessarily the case here, but they'll

633
00:40:33,160 --> 00:40:36,279
Speaker 1: take a sledgehammer and they'll knock the side or the

634
00:40:36,320 --> 00:40:40,680
Speaker 1: front out of one, depend upon how the the crypt

635
00:40:40,719 --> 00:40:43,000
Speaker 1: is set up, and they'll knock a hole in it

636
00:40:43,360 --> 00:40:46,399
Speaker 1: and then begin to pull things out of it. All right,

637
00:40:46,880 --> 00:40:49,400
Speaker 1: And isn't that horrible when you begin to think about it.

638
00:40:50,200 --> 00:40:54,279
Speaker 1: And that apparently is what happened in Gertrude's case, And

639
00:40:54,320 --> 00:41:00,880
Speaker 1: they were able to build out, build out this genetic

640
00:41:00,920 --> 00:41:06,960
Speaker 1: structure through Authraam's Authoram's methodology, and they came up. Now,

641
00:41:06,960 --> 00:41:10,799
Speaker 1: we didn't Gertrude did have a daughter, didn't she?

642
00:41:10,960 --> 00:41:13,920
Speaker 2: Well, actually, okay, once we were able to get all

643
00:41:13,960 --> 00:41:15,960
Speaker 2: of this found out. She was born in eighteen sixty

644
00:41:16,000 --> 00:41:20,280
Speaker 2: four in California to Glenn Elliott and Lyman Weston Elliott.

645
00:41:20,320 --> 00:41:23,560
Speaker 2: She had a sister, Louise and a brother, Theodore. Gertie,

646
00:41:23,600 --> 00:41:27,879
Speaker 2: as she was called, married James Merritt Littlehall. Together they

647
00:41:27,960 --> 00:41:32,800
Speaker 2: had a daughter, Louise, in nineteen oh eight. Sadly, Gertie

648
00:41:32,800 --> 00:41:37,000
Speaker 2: died in nineteen fifteen at the age of fifty. She's

649
00:41:37,000 --> 00:41:39,239
Speaker 2: got a seven year old daughter. Okay, so she was

650
00:41:39,239 --> 00:41:41,200
Speaker 2: a little on the old side for having a child.

651
00:41:41,640 --> 00:41:43,520
Speaker 1: Uh tickle on during note that day and age.

652
00:41:43,600 --> 00:41:45,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I mean in her forties when she has

653
00:41:45,719 --> 00:41:46,160
Speaker 2: her child.

654
00:41:46,520 --> 00:41:47,840
Speaker 1: Do you know what it took her so long to

655
00:41:47,840 --> 00:41:49,640
Speaker 1: have a child? I don't know if you know that,

656
00:41:49,680 --> 00:41:51,760
Speaker 1: I got it. This is a this is a huge

657
00:41:51,760 --> 00:41:52,359
Speaker 1: reveal here.

658
00:41:52,400 --> 00:41:52,760
Speaker 2: Okay.

659
00:41:54,200 --> 00:41:59,560
Speaker 1: In my earlier comments about Yorick, York was an entertainer, right,

660
00:41:59,800 --> 00:42:07,240
Speaker 1: he was the court jester that touched Hamlet's life. Gertie

661
00:42:08,360 --> 00:42:17,000
Speaker 1: actually was a highly regarded and accomplished musician and vocalist.

662
00:42:17,280 --> 00:42:20,879
Speaker 1: Her parents, now imagine this trip. They were from Stockton, California.

663
00:42:21,719 --> 00:42:25,520
Speaker 1: They put this child after she graduated high school in sixteen.

664
00:42:25,600 --> 00:42:29,000
Speaker 1: They put this child, I guess, on a train and

665
00:42:29,080 --> 00:42:32,480
Speaker 1: sent her to Boston and she studied at the Boston

666
00:42:32,560 --> 00:42:36,120
Speaker 1: Conservatory there, did that for two years, and did this,

667
00:42:37,480 --> 00:42:42,640
Speaker 1: got on a boat and went to Europe and studied

668
00:42:42,960 --> 00:42:47,399
Speaker 1: at multiple other locations there before she finally came back

669
00:42:47,440 --> 00:42:52,840
Speaker 1: home and became this fantastic sought after musician and vocalist

670
00:42:52,880 --> 00:42:57,239
Speaker 1: where she would teach voice training and musicianship. And so

671
00:42:57,280 --> 00:43:01,240
Speaker 1: she had lived this incredible life, particularly for a woman

672
00:43:01,360 --> 00:43:05,880
Speaker 1: during the let's face friend of Victorian era, and which

673
00:43:06,239 --> 00:43:10,399
Speaker 1: just makes all the more fascinating that out of all

674
00:43:10,400 --> 00:43:13,160
Speaker 1: the graves in the world that they they did, that's

675
00:43:13,239 --> 00:43:17,000
Speaker 1: the one they did. And so she she you know,

676
00:43:17,040 --> 00:43:20,560
Speaker 1: you've got this this person who made a mark during

677
00:43:20,600 --> 00:43:23,879
Speaker 1: their their short, very period of time, this very short

678
00:43:23,880 --> 00:43:28,120
Speaker 1: period of time of their life fifty years, and she

679
00:43:28,280 --> 00:43:32,440
Speaker 1: was remarkable in that sense. Now you take what Othrom

680
00:43:32,520 --> 00:43:38,000
Speaker 1: has done and she is now in the news again

681
00:43:38,200 --> 00:43:42,760
Speaker 1: because this just has dropped and she's made another mark

682
00:43:43,880 --> 00:43:46,640
Speaker 1: after well in excess of one hundred years.

683
00:43:47,080 --> 00:43:49,799
Speaker 2: There's some peace in that knowing, but it's such a

684
00:43:49,800 --> 00:43:55,200
Speaker 2: deep sadness to know that your relative sat unidentified as

685
00:43:55,280 --> 00:43:58,560
Speaker 2: Ventia County Janeko, thinking she was somebody that had been

686
00:43:58,640 --> 00:44:01,640
Speaker 2: killed recently in the eighties, even that's what they thought,

687
00:44:02,120 --> 00:44:04,600
Speaker 2: and finding out she was historically significant.

688
00:44:04,840 --> 00:44:08,160
Speaker 1: Yes, and you know, Dave, it is very sad. But

689
00:44:08,239 --> 00:44:12,360
Speaker 1: you know what, here's the cool thing about this. There's

690
00:44:12,480 --> 00:44:18,279
Speaker 1: actually a bit of hope here. There's actually something that

691
00:44:18,320 --> 00:44:24,319
Speaker 1: we can come away from this story that gives us

692
00:44:24,360 --> 00:44:28,279
Speaker 1: all hope, and certainly people that have like myself, that

693
00:44:28,360 --> 00:44:31,680
Speaker 1: have stood over the unidentified for all of these years.

694
00:44:32,840 --> 00:44:37,880
Speaker 1: The hope is is that now there can be answers

695
00:44:38,960 --> 00:44:42,759
Speaker 1: for you know, I think maybe what we thought was

696
00:44:42,800 --> 00:44:46,600
Speaker 1: going to be an unsolvable puzzle for so many years,

697
00:44:47,440 --> 00:44:52,480
Speaker 1: and it comes in the form of the Middlemans. It

698
00:44:52,520 --> 00:44:56,000
Speaker 1: comes in the form of this organization that has been

699
00:44:56,040 --> 00:45:00,399
Speaker 1: created with AUTHORM. I have people that approach me all

700
00:45:00,440 --> 00:45:05,400
Speaker 1: the time saying that I wish there was something I

701
00:45:05,400 --> 00:45:08,839
Speaker 1: could do. I wish there was something I could do

702
00:45:08,920 --> 00:45:12,799
Speaker 1: because I've always been fascinated by forensics. I've always been

703
00:45:12,840 --> 00:45:19,200
Speaker 1: fascinated by detective work. Well, saddle up, here's your opportunity.

704
00:45:19,840 --> 00:45:25,200
Speaker 1: Here's your opportunity to do this. I would urge everyone

705
00:45:26,000 --> 00:45:33,800
Speaker 1: to visit dnasolves dot com. That's d n A s

706
00:45:34,960 --> 00:45:42,960
Speaker 1: l v e S dot com, DNA Solves. Visit that website.

707
00:45:43,840 --> 00:45:48,120
Speaker 1: This is where you can see the cases that are

708
00:45:48,200 --> 00:45:53,120
Speaker 1: currently waiting to be worked, those cases that there are

709
00:45:53,280 --> 00:45:57,640
Speaker 1: no answers to. This is your opportunity to fully engage.

710
00:45:58,080 --> 00:46:02,560
Speaker 1: And it doesn't matter. You can donate money, you can

711
00:46:02,600 --> 00:46:05,480
Speaker 1: and it doesn't have to be tons and tons of money,

712
00:46:05,520 --> 00:46:09,160
Speaker 1: all right, just a few bucks. There's a way to contribute.

713
00:46:09,800 --> 00:46:14,120
Speaker 1: It's going to be tax deductible. Get in contact with them.

714
00:46:14,520 --> 00:46:17,120
Speaker 1: Get in contact with them, look over the cases, find

715
00:46:17,160 --> 00:46:21,120
Speaker 1: one that you're interested in, and lend a hand. Listen,

716
00:46:21,239 --> 00:46:23,520
Speaker 1: you have the ability and you have the power to

717
00:46:23,560 --> 00:46:28,560
Speaker 1: do something that somebody like me never had the chance

718
00:46:28,600 --> 00:46:35,800
Speaker 1: to do. I tried to provide answers for those that remained,

719
00:46:37,600 --> 00:46:42,600
Speaker 1: and I failed many times because of my limitations. My friends,

720
00:46:43,680 --> 00:46:48,720
Speaker 1: those limitations are beginning to fall away. Here's your chance.

721
00:46:49,480 --> 00:46:53,120
Speaker 1: Dig in, help these folks out as best you can,

722
00:46:53,200 --> 00:47:01,640
Speaker 1: and again visit DNA solves dot com. I'm Joseph Scott

723
00:47:01,680 --> 00:47:09,080
Speaker 1: Morgan and this is body Bags MHM