WEBVTT - Gil Hanse - Part 2 0:00:00.720 --> 0:00:03.720 Welcome back to another edition of the Frida Egg podcast. 0:00:04.240 --> 0:00:07.200 This is part two of our conversation with Gil Hands. 0:00:07.320 --> 0:00:10.000 If you miss part one, be sure to check it 0:00:10.039 --> 0:00:13.440 out an iTunes, stitcher, or on the website. If you 0:00:13.560 --> 0:00:16.760 enjoy the podcast, please leave us a review in the 0:00:17.000 --> 0:00:21.760 iTunes podcast center. This really helps us out and we 0:00:21.880 --> 0:00:25.759 really appreciate it. Without further ado, here's part two of 0:00:25.800 --> 0:00:30.520 the Gil Hans podcast. I miss the green, for example, 0:00:30.680 --> 0:00:33.040 I'm already upset when I find my ball in the bunker, 0:00:33.120 --> 0:00:35.240 I'm really upset. And when I find my ball in 0:00:35.320 --> 0:00:36.279 a egg. 0:00:36.280 --> 0:00:40.159 Friday egg, the dreaded Frida Egg, Frida Eg, Frida egg 0:00:40.240 --> 0:00:42.240 bride egg Lie, I'm about ready to run. 0:00:42.080 --> 0:01:11.480 Off of the What's something that you wish the regular 0:01:11.600 --> 0:01:14.319 golfer understood more about your job? 0:01:16.920 --> 0:01:20.399 I think that there's there's a lot of nuance and 0:01:20.440 --> 0:01:26.360 subtlety and thought that goes into you know, every almost 0:01:26.840 --> 0:01:31.000 there's many things that happen by accident, although sometimes good 0:01:31.000 --> 0:01:34.680 stuff happens by accident, but you you know, you keep 0:01:34.720 --> 0:01:37.560 it for a reason. So I think that there's there's 0:01:37.560 --> 0:01:39.240 a lot of thought that goes into every little bump 0:01:39.280 --> 0:01:42.399 and bounce on a golf course, most every contour that 0:01:42.520 --> 0:01:45.959 goes into it, and you know, myself included, most average 0:01:45.959 --> 0:01:48.160 golfers are just trying to get the ball airborne and 0:01:48.240 --> 0:01:50.600 just you know, not thinking about strategy or the different 0:01:52.480 --> 0:01:56.440 you know, the way things are impacting the game and 0:01:56.560 --> 0:01:59.480 sort of very quiet ways. And so I think that 0:01:59.480 --> 0:02:03.720 that's something that people look at our golf courses and 0:02:03.760 --> 0:02:09.120 think that sometimes there's just comes about by happenstance. But 0:02:09.200 --> 0:02:11.600 for the most part, everything is really well thought out 0:02:11.639 --> 0:02:16.919 and well planned and is hopefully having an impact on 0:02:17.520 --> 0:02:19.000 the way the game is played, or at least an 0:02:19.000 --> 0:02:22.560 impact on the thought process of how people approach it. 0:02:22.600 --> 0:02:26.400 Is there like a particular green or hole at one 0:02:26.400 --> 0:02:29.480 of your courses where you just worked on it for 0:02:29.840 --> 0:02:32.960 seemingly days that you just couldn't get right for a 0:02:33.000 --> 0:02:34.799 long time, and then you finally got it. 0:02:36.160 --> 0:02:42.320 I think what tends to happen is sometimes you get fooled. 0:02:42.760 --> 0:02:45.160 You know, at the end of the day, you're shaping something, 0:02:45.160 --> 0:02:46.760 and then you go and you survey it, and you 0:02:46.840 --> 0:02:48.840 check out the grades and make sure everything works and 0:02:48.880 --> 0:02:51.040 make sure everything's going where you expect it to go. 0:02:51.160 --> 0:02:56.040 And so I think more often than sort of working 0:02:56.120 --> 0:02:58.799 working working to get something. Sometimes you're working on it 0:02:58.840 --> 0:03:00.560 and then you survey it and you shoot it and 0:03:00.560 --> 0:03:02.639 you're like, oh my god, that's doing exactly the opposite 0:03:02.639 --> 0:03:04.200 of what I thought. And that can be an influence 0:03:04.240 --> 0:03:08.160 from surrounding slopes, or you know, you just don't judge 0:03:08.200 --> 0:03:10.840 the grade. You're trying to build a green that's going 0:03:10.919 --> 0:03:13.560 back towards the player, and the ground is all falling 0:03:13.560 --> 0:03:17.600 away and your eye is just deceived by the way 0:03:17.680 --> 0:03:21.080 the ground sits. So I think that there's more redoing 0:03:21.160 --> 0:03:25.760 or struggling or sort of more frequent edits based on 0:03:25.840 --> 0:03:29.480 the fact that you're I'm not seeing what I think 0:03:29.560 --> 0:03:32.480 is actually happening, and when that happens, it's kind of funny. 0:03:32.520 --> 0:03:35.280 Actually we get a good chuckle out of that. So 0:03:35.320 --> 0:03:39.000 it's that's more frequently the way it works. And because 0:03:39.480 --> 0:03:41.600 a lot of you know, we've been very fortunate recently 0:03:41.640 --> 0:03:44.120 to work on a lot of sandy sites and so 0:03:44.320 --> 0:03:48.560 we can refine the contours and greens all the way 0:03:48.560 --> 0:03:50.600 down into the very last second. Like if you're building 0:03:50.640 --> 0:03:54.600 a USGA green, once you build the cavity, you're pretty 0:03:54.600 --> 0:03:56.520 well stuck. I mean, you can play around with an 0:03:56.520 --> 0:03:58.360 inch or two here or there. But you can't just 0:03:58.400 --> 0:04:00.320 make six inch cuts or make a lot of big 0:04:00.440 --> 0:04:02.840 edits to the because then you're screwing up the profile 0:04:02.880 --> 0:04:05.080 of the green with the gravel blanket and the whole thing. 0:04:05.200 --> 0:04:08.800 So on sandy sites, we can shape something in with 0:04:08.840 --> 0:04:11.160 a dozer or an excavator and then put the sand 0:04:11.200 --> 0:04:13.880 in place. And but then we've got a lot more 0:04:13.960 --> 0:04:16.280 fine edits that can be made with the sand pro 0:04:16.680 --> 0:04:18.880 or that can be made with rakes and shovels. So 0:04:18.920 --> 0:04:23.160 I think that allows us to continually refined, hopefully improve. 0:04:23.320 --> 0:04:26.680 And sometimes that process goes in different directions than you 0:04:26.680 --> 0:04:30.960 ever thought it might go. And again that's hopefully the 0:04:31.040 --> 0:04:34.200 results that come from that are better than what you 0:04:34.240 --> 0:04:35.880 intended when you started out building it. 0:04:37.320 --> 0:04:40.520 So we're at Pinehurst and you just built, you just 0:04:40.560 --> 0:04:45.159 finished up the third course at stream Song. How's building 0:04:45.400 --> 0:04:51.560 a course at an ra established property different than building 0:04:51.600 --> 0:04:54.640 one at a new property. 0:04:54.760 --> 0:05:00.120 Well, you you have you have other courses that that 0:05:00.160 --> 0:05:03.280 you're responding to. Whether you're doing it purposely or not. 0:05:03.480 --> 0:05:07.000 You it's just you can't help but understand that there 0:05:07.040 --> 0:05:10.320 are other properties here that you're you're trying to make 0:05:10.320 --> 0:05:13.599 a golf course that is compatible with but you're also 0:05:13.640 --> 0:05:16.000 trying to make a golf course that, hopefully, quality wise, 0:05:16.120 --> 0:05:22.040 is at least equal to what already exists there. So 0:05:22.680 --> 0:05:26.239 as it relates to stream Song, it was interesting because 0:05:26.279 --> 0:05:29.080 both golf courses are by, you know, the modern guys 0:05:29.080 --> 0:05:30.719 that we respect the most. So you have Bill and 0:05:30.720 --> 0:05:32.680 Ben doing the Red course and Tom Doak doing the 0:05:32.680 --> 0:05:36.960 Blue course. So we were putting our work alongside, you know, 0:05:37.000 --> 0:05:39.600 the modern architects who we think do the best work. 0:05:39.680 --> 0:05:42.080 So there was a standard that was held up at 0:05:42.080 --> 0:05:44.120 that point in time that we wanted to respond to. 0:05:44.240 --> 0:05:50.479 There was a style that you know, we all sort 0:05:50.520 --> 0:05:53.560 of generally live in, that rugged, rough, rustic style, so 0:05:53.600 --> 0:05:55.400 that we knew that was going to be compatible. And 0:05:55.400 --> 0:05:57.560 then we looked at all, right, how do we differentiate it? 0:05:57.600 --> 0:05:59.400 And it was at stream Song, it was all about 0:05:59.400 --> 0:06:03.400 the site. Our site was bigger, broader, not nearly as 0:06:03.640 --> 0:06:07.080 dramatic as far as the landforms are concerned, and red 0:06:07.080 --> 0:06:10.400 and Blue are purposely co mingled and co designed to 0:06:10.880 --> 0:06:14.520 flow together, so they're a little bit more compact. So 0:06:14.560 --> 0:06:16.680 the reaction there was, okay, let's look at us from 0:06:16.720 --> 0:06:18.919 a scale perspective. Let's try and do something bigger and 0:06:19.040 --> 0:06:21.240 maybe a little bit bolder than those two golf courses. 0:06:21.279 --> 0:06:24.800 Here at Pinehurst, the reaction is to a completely different 0:06:25.000 --> 0:06:28.120 I mean, it's a historic golf course. It has been 0:06:28.160 --> 0:06:32.840 a standard for greatness in this country for decades, designed 0:06:32.839 --> 0:06:35.360 by one of the greatest architects of all time, and 0:06:35.400 --> 0:06:38.039 then restored by you know, the greatest architects of the 0:06:38.040 --> 0:06:41.760 modern era, Bill and Ben. So we're looking next door 0:06:41.839 --> 0:06:46.560 and we're literally a butt course number two. And you 0:06:46.600 --> 0:06:47.960 know a lot of people said, well, you're going to 0:06:48.000 --> 0:06:49.720 build greens like course number two, and we thought, no, 0:06:49.800 --> 0:06:52.080 that'd be the stupidest thing we could ever do, because 0:06:52.720 --> 0:06:55.680 the finest example of those greens already exists right next door. 0:06:55.720 --> 0:06:58.080 So what are we trying to do outdo course number two? 0:06:58.160 --> 0:07:00.840 So no, we you know, there are some elements of 0:07:00.920 --> 0:07:02.880 the greens on Course number two that might find their 0:07:02.920 --> 0:07:05.200 way into too our greens, But for the most part, 0:07:05.320 --> 0:07:08.520 we're trying to build a golf course that's compatible. And 0:07:09.000 --> 0:07:10.840 you know, I'd be lying if I didn't say that 0:07:10.840 --> 0:07:13.000 there's sort of competition. I mean, we all try to 0:07:13.040 --> 0:07:14.880 do our best work, and so we don't want to 0:07:14.920 --> 0:07:18.080 build the golf course that's that's considered to be the 0:07:18.120 --> 0:07:21.200 worst at any of the places we work. And you 0:07:21.280 --> 0:07:23.840 had a great fortune of being at a dinner last 0:07:23.880 --> 0:07:26.040 night where Bill Coor was speaking, and he said, you know, 0:07:26.440 --> 0:07:32.679 these resorts and these destination places, they really succeed only 0:07:32.720 --> 0:07:35.840 when the quality of golf is spread across the entire spectrum. 0:07:36.360 --> 0:07:40.080 You know, if Bannon had five golf courses and there 0:07:40.120 --> 0:07:42.200 were two of them that nobody wanted to play and 0:07:42.240 --> 0:07:44.760 three that everyone wanted to play, well, then that doesn't work. 0:07:44.920 --> 0:07:47.440 You want to have the five golf courses spread equally, 0:07:47.480 --> 0:07:52.320 and same thing as stream song. If you know, it's easy, 0:07:52.840 --> 0:07:54.520 and I think it's great that you know there are 0:07:54.560 --> 0:07:57.080 people who love each every you know, there's people who 0:07:57.120 --> 0:07:58.920 are big advocates for blue, there are people with big 0:07:58.960 --> 0:08:01.600 advocates for red, and similarly for black, and to be 0:08:01.640 --> 0:08:05.440 able to have those conversations, and you know as well 0:08:05.440 --> 0:08:07.680 as I do, when you have conversations about golf architecture, 0:08:07.720 --> 0:08:10.080 there's no literally, there's no rights or wrongs. There's no 0:08:10.120 --> 0:08:12.760 black and whites, but there's there's just all these shades 0:08:12.760 --> 0:08:14.720 of gray, and so people like them for all those 0:08:14.760 --> 0:08:17.560 different reasons. And so you know, I don't think it 0:08:17.600 --> 0:08:19.680 is ever our expectation that, of course we're going to 0:08:19.680 --> 0:08:22.600 build something that's going to outshine course number two. But 0:08:22.680 --> 0:08:25.040 we wanted to build a golf course that would make 0:08:25.080 --> 0:08:27.400 people who come to Pineurse Resorts say, hey, you got 0:08:27.440 --> 0:08:30.280 to play number two obviously, but now you really have 0:08:30.320 --> 0:08:34.520 to play number four also, And so it's been an interesting, 0:08:36.320 --> 0:08:39.040 interesting project. Bill and I joke an awful lot about 0:08:39.080 --> 0:08:41.400 how we just follow in their footsteps, and he's the 0:08:41.480 --> 0:08:43.679 trailblazer and pioneer, and he gets to live in the 0:08:43.760 --> 0:08:47.920 rough and rugged, you know, establishments, and by the time 0:08:47.960 --> 0:08:50.520 we show up, the hotels are done and everything's perfect, 0:08:50.520 --> 0:08:52.280 and we get to live in Donald Ross's house and 0:08:52.320 --> 0:08:54.319 we have a little bit of a back and forth 0:08:54.360 --> 0:08:57.640 banter on that. But anytime you get to work alongside 0:08:57.679 --> 0:09:00.600 those guys, and anytime you get to work at a 0:09:00.640 --> 0:09:04.120 place as historic as Pinehurst, I mean, how lucky are we? 0:09:05.160 --> 0:09:07.959 What are some of the biggest challenges that you faced 0:09:07.960 --> 0:09:12.080 with number four. It's of course that was originally designed 0:09:12.120 --> 0:09:14.440 by Ross for people that don't know, and then it's 0:09:14.480 --> 0:09:18.400 been worked on by Robert Trent Jones, Rhys Jones and 0:09:18.520 --> 0:09:19.280 Tom Fazzio. 0:09:20.960 --> 0:09:23.160 I think the biggest challenge we had, and what's been 0:09:23.160 --> 0:09:28.320 the most interesting thing from our perspective is that through 0:09:28.400 --> 0:09:32.679 all of those various iterations, the golf course became detached 0:09:32.720 --> 0:09:34.720 from the landscape. I mean, there was a lot of 0:09:34.720 --> 0:09:38.240 different shaping, there was a lot of different earth moving 0:09:38.480 --> 0:09:43.720 on the site, and Ross considered it and wrote about 0:09:43.800 --> 0:09:46.440 that it was probably the most dramatic of all the 0:09:46.480 --> 0:09:48.640 sites you had to work with here at the core 0:09:48.720 --> 0:09:51.920 of the resort, and it's got great topography and great interest. 0:09:52.640 --> 0:09:55.800 So our goal was to try to reconnect that landscape. 0:09:56.120 --> 0:09:58.400 Was to start put the ridges back where the ridges were, 0:09:58.520 --> 0:10:02.280 put the valleys back where they were, not just looking 0:10:02.320 --> 0:10:05.200 at tree line to tree line and reconnecting the landscape. 0:10:05.240 --> 0:10:08.280 So it was an interesting exercise. Normally, when when you're 0:10:08.280 --> 0:10:10.240 building a new golf course, you're trying to find the 0:10:10.280 --> 0:10:12.240 golf holes and you're trying to find the places in 0:10:12.280 --> 0:10:15.520 the landscape where they exist. With Course number four, with 0:10:15.640 --> 0:10:18.680 just a few exceptions, we were working in the same 0:10:18.800 --> 0:10:22.559 corridors of the golf course. Of the routing didn't change dramatically, 0:10:23.240 --> 0:10:27.040 but within those corridors, our goal was to reconnect the landscape, 0:10:27.040 --> 0:10:29.559 almost as if we just found it in its natural state, 0:10:29.640 --> 0:10:32.840 and then once we put the landscape back, then we 0:10:32.920 --> 0:10:35.000 all started talking about, Okay, where did the bunkers go, 0:10:35.080 --> 0:10:36.960 what's the strategy, where are you supposed to hit it? 0:10:37.000 --> 0:10:38.880 How does this whole thing fall into place? So it 0:10:38.960 --> 0:10:44.800 was kind of a backwards exercise of restoring the landscape 0:10:44.840 --> 0:10:47.920 before you even then start designing the golf holes. And 0:10:47.920 --> 0:10:51.240 it's been fun and challenging, and I think that I 0:10:51.240 --> 0:10:54.920 mean a lot of credit to Brent Vest and Brett 0:10:54.920 --> 0:10:58.000 Brennan and the guys that are sort of doing a 0:10:58.000 --> 0:11:00.120 lot of the heavy lifting on our projects and and 0:11:00.120 --> 0:11:02.120 a lot of the shoving and pushing around, and they 0:11:02.600 --> 0:11:04.520 I think they've really nailed it. They've done a great 0:11:04.600 --> 0:11:07.640 job with with restoring that landscape. And now we're all 0:11:07.840 --> 0:11:09.640 sort of the rest of the team is following behind, 0:11:09.679 --> 0:11:15.239 and I think we're making some some very interesting design decisions, 0:11:15.280 --> 0:11:17.559 some of them based on what Ross had done. We 0:11:17.960 --> 0:11:20.720 have his old the old aerial photographs from course number four, 0:11:20.760 --> 0:11:22.760 so we've taken some of the bunker patterns and some 0:11:22.840 --> 0:11:25.400 of the sort of grassing lines from that golf course. 0:11:26.120 --> 0:11:28.080 But at the end of the day, it'll it'll be 0:11:28.200 --> 0:11:31.480 one of our original designs and I mean we're we're 0:11:31.520 --> 0:11:34.000 really excited about how we think it's going to fit 0:11:34.040 --> 0:11:35.920 into the overall landscape parent Pinehurst. 0:11:37.120 --> 0:11:39.520 It's a cool site. Having walked around at the last 0:11:39.559 --> 0:11:42.520 couple of days, it's got some some movement, some dramatic 0:11:42.840 --> 0:11:47.319 you know holes, some it's it's a cool piece of topography. 0:11:47.320 --> 0:11:50.240 It's a lot different than number two. But thanks you know, 0:11:50.360 --> 0:11:53.680 you fly over, I mean you go from two and 0:11:53.720 --> 0:11:57.680 then the landscape stays consistent across, which is which is neat. 0:11:57.960 --> 0:11:58.280 Thank you. 0:11:58.760 --> 0:12:01.840 Another new design you have is a Hoopye match Club 0:12:02.080 --> 0:12:05.079 and it's a course that's built for match play, and 0:12:05.960 --> 0:12:09.360 I mean it's pretty neat that keeping score and talking 0:12:09.400 --> 0:12:13.000 about your score is frowned upon there. How is building 0:12:13.040 --> 0:12:16.880 a course for match play versus traditional stroke play. 0:12:18.320 --> 0:12:22.280 I think that the Jim and I really enjoyed that opportunity, 0:12:22.400 --> 0:12:24.880 you know, working with Mike Wallrath, the owner, he's just 0:12:25.040 --> 0:12:27.559 one of the greatest guys, and he loves golf. He's 0:12:27.600 --> 0:12:30.960 passionate about he's a good player. And so when he 0:12:31.000 --> 0:12:33.560 came to us and we talked about this piece of ground, 0:12:33.600 --> 0:12:36.599 which oddly enough, he was looking for a piece of 0:12:36.600 --> 0:12:38.679 ground in Georgia, and Jim and I had worked on 0:12:38.880 --> 0:12:43.440 this particular property back in two thousand and seven. We 0:12:43.480 --> 0:12:46.680 had looked at it with Davis Love and looking about 0:12:46.679 --> 0:12:48.680 building a golf course there, so we knew of the 0:12:48.800 --> 0:12:51.000 character and the quality of it. And now this is 0:12:51.040 --> 0:12:55.880 a completely different approach to how we tackled that landscape. 0:12:55.880 --> 0:12:57.960 But we introduced Michael to the land and he fell 0:12:57.960 --> 0:13:00.760 in love with it immediately, and so we one of 0:13:00.760 --> 0:13:03.320 those projects that's kind of come back to us, which 0:13:03.559 --> 0:13:07.920 we're delighted about. But when we were approached also about 0:13:07.920 --> 0:13:10.200 doing the match play component, Jim and I were excited 0:13:10.240 --> 0:13:14.640 about the thought of, hey, we can build holes, we 0:13:14.679 --> 0:13:17.200 can take a few more chances, we can build more 0:13:17.240 --> 0:13:21.200 heroic type setups where there's a lot of risk reward 0:13:22.160 --> 0:13:25.040 that if you take on the big challenge, you're going 0:13:25.120 --> 0:13:27.760 to get the big reward and if you play away 0:13:27.760 --> 0:13:29.600 from that, you're going to have to, you know, work 0:13:29.640 --> 0:13:33.360 to score. But the thought was, you know, nobody's writing 0:13:33.480 --> 0:13:35.880 nine or ten on their scorecard. It's just you've lost 0:13:35.880 --> 0:13:38.280 the hole. So why not you know, gamble with some 0:13:38.320 --> 0:13:41.920 pretty big stuff, because all right, you know, you just 0:13:41.960 --> 0:13:44.920 one down. And I think that that mentality was refreshing. 0:13:44.920 --> 0:13:48.880 It was liberating for us, because so often you're focused on, all, right, 0:13:48.920 --> 0:13:53.440 how what's the playability and what's ultimately the the score 0:13:54.120 --> 0:13:55.760 that somebody's going to put or how you're going to 0:13:55.960 --> 0:13:58.880 how do you design based on the notion of par 0:13:59.080 --> 0:14:01.840 And I know we all sort of in this circle 0:14:01.920 --> 0:14:05.719 of golf architecture of ficionados. You know, part is irrelevant 0:14:05.760 --> 0:14:08.320 to us, but it's not to ninety nine percent of 0:14:08.360 --> 0:14:11.160 the golfers out there. That's really what they measure themselves 0:14:11.240 --> 0:14:16.599 up against. And the carton pencil mentality is, unfortunately the reality. 0:14:17.200 --> 0:14:19.640 And so to be asked to design a golf course 0:14:19.640 --> 0:14:22.280 where the cardon pencil mentality is thrown out the window 0:14:22.320 --> 0:14:25.480 and as you said, frowned upon is I mean liberating 0:14:25.600 --> 0:14:27.640 is really the only word I can use, because I 0:14:27.640 --> 0:14:31.040 think it just allowed us a fresh perspective on that landscape. 0:14:31.080 --> 0:14:33.560 Now that landscape allowed us to build some dramatic golf 0:14:33.560 --> 0:14:40.239 holes and to have some really dramatic sandy features, utilizing 0:14:40.280 --> 0:14:42.560 some of the beautiful live oaks and the property, and 0:14:42.600 --> 0:14:45.120 then the variety of golf holes from along the lake 0:14:45.760 --> 0:14:49.000 at the start, which one of the nice things about 0:14:49.000 --> 0:14:51.840 working with Michael was, you know, the quintessential sort of 0:14:51.840 --> 0:14:55.240 an American golf course in southeastern American golf course would 0:14:55.240 --> 0:14:57.120 finish on the lake. You know, you'd have your par 0:14:57.240 --> 0:15:00.320 threes or in your par fours, and you know that's stuff. 0:15:00.360 --> 0:15:03.600 And with the beauty of that landscape, we really felt 0:15:03.600 --> 0:15:05.160 like that was the worst part of it. Now, it 0:15:05.200 --> 0:15:07.240 was a place we decided that would be the best 0:15:07.240 --> 0:15:10.320 place for the clubhouse because the beauty of it is fantastic. 0:15:10.400 --> 0:15:13.680 But we wanted to finish on the really cool, choppy 0:15:13.760 --> 0:15:16.200 rolling ground in the sand as opposed to finishing on 0:15:16.240 --> 0:15:18.800 the water. So we went to Michael with the routing 0:15:18.960 --> 0:15:22.160 the final decision. We said, hey, we understand it's a 0:15:22.200 --> 0:15:25.880 really nice visual resource, but we don't really value it 0:15:25.960 --> 0:15:28.960 that highly from a golf standpoint, So can we have 0:15:29.000 --> 0:15:30.920 whole number one where you're overlooking the water and then 0:15:30.920 --> 0:15:32.760 whole number two where you're actually playing it and then 0:15:33.360 --> 0:15:35.640 see you later. And he was like, yeah, that's a 0:15:35.640 --> 0:15:38.040 cool idea. I'm fine with that. So it was. It 0:15:38.080 --> 0:15:40.720 was good looking at from a routing standpoint. We had 0:15:40.760 --> 0:15:43.280 all these diverse landscapes. We had the you know, along 0:15:43.360 --> 0:15:45.080 the lake to start, and then we had kind of 0:15:45.160 --> 0:15:48.360 rolling down into the woods lower ground where we had 0:15:48.400 --> 0:15:51.840 to you know, actually as whole number four, as Jim 0:15:51.920 --> 0:15:53.800 refers to as sort of an architects hall. We had 0:15:53.840 --> 0:15:56.920 to make that hole to connect the dots, and then 0:15:56.960 --> 0:15:59.440 you emerge out of there on five and six, and 0:15:59.480 --> 0:16:01.480 then by time you hit seven you start to get 0:16:01.480 --> 0:16:04.080 into those great rolling ground and the live oaks, and 0:16:04.080 --> 0:16:05.880 then you know, by the time you get out on ten, 0:16:05.960 --> 0:16:08.600 you're out in the meadow. Then you're back into the 0:16:08.640 --> 0:16:11.480 live oaks and rolling around and finishing in that regard. 0:16:11.600 --> 0:16:15.600 So it was a wonderful landscape to be able to 0:16:15.600 --> 0:16:18.920 try to execute that thought process of building a match 0:16:19.000 --> 0:16:22.440 play course. And then because it's remote and because you 0:16:22.440 --> 0:16:24.440 know people are going to be staying on property with 0:16:24.520 --> 0:16:28.000 all right, well, if you're you know, maybe somewhere down 0:16:28.000 --> 0:16:30.160 the road, Michael might build another golf course. But for 0:16:30.240 --> 0:16:33.360 right now, you know, there's this eighteen hole golf course. 0:16:33.880 --> 0:16:37.920 What can we do within the property that might allow 0:16:37.960 --> 0:16:40.720 you to have a different option to play. You know, 0:16:40.760 --> 0:16:43.520 I'm fifty four years old. I'd love to walk and 0:16:43.560 --> 0:16:46.520 carry or have a caddy, but thirty six full holes 0:16:46.560 --> 0:16:48.400 by the end of the day, I'm done and I'd 0:16:48.440 --> 0:16:51.280 like to be able to enjoy having a libation and 0:16:51.320 --> 0:16:53.600 having some sitting around with the guys and having a 0:16:53.600 --> 0:16:55.600 good time without just feeling like I'm about to fall 0:16:55.600 --> 0:16:59.000 over a sleep in my soup. So we thought, well, 0:16:59.000 --> 0:17:04.199 what if we create another loop of golf holes that 0:17:04.240 --> 0:17:07.000 would be We've started referring to it as the Afternoon Round, 0:17:07.560 --> 0:17:09.920 and thought, well, the afternoon Round could be a much 0:17:09.920 --> 0:17:13.840 shorter golf course, much really a little bit more compact 0:17:13.840 --> 0:17:17.280 as far as walking is concerned. And so the concept became, well, 0:17:17.320 --> 0:17:21.240 what if we tack four holes on short holes into 0:17:21.280 --> 0:17:23.560 the routing and then do this combination of where you 0:17:23.600 --> 0:17:25.600 play the first hole, then you skip over to six, 0:17:26.640 --> 0:17:28.440 and then do you knock out? So a couple of 0:17:28.480 --> 0:17:30.639 big long part fives and some of the longer walks 0:17:30.680 --> 0:17:34.240 between holes, and then you play seven, eight, nine, ten, 0:17:34.280 --> 0:17:37.639 and then you jump into ABCD and then that loops 0:17:37.640 --> 0:17:40.840 you back in across and then you jump into whole eleven, 0:17:41.800 --> 0:17:43.600 but not playing it as a part five, playing as 0:17:43.640 --> 0:17:46.760 a short four anyway. The creativity involved in that the route, 0:17:46.800 --> 0:17:49.280 the final routing of the afternoon holes was Jim Wagner. 0:17:49.400 --> 0:17:51.080 I mean he came up with even the idea of 0:17:51.160 --> 0:17:53.840 crossing over one of the other holes that you've already played. 0:17:54.720 --> 0:17:58.560 And so now you've got a around six thousand yard 0:17:58.560 --> 0:18:01.760 golf course. It plays under seventy and you're just it's 0:18:01.840 --> 0:18:05.280 a fun alternative to get another eighteen holes in, but 0:18:05.400 --> 0:18:08.439 now feel like you're getting beat up. And then the 0:18:08.680 --> 0:18:12.560 four afternoon holes, there's a really short part five, a 0:18:12.640 --> 0:18:14.960 really short part four, and then two part three. So 0:18:15.040 --> 0:18:18.080 again it's a small it's a much smaller, tighter loop. 0:18:18.240 --> 0:18:22.960 And within all of that context is Mike Walrath has 0:18:23.040 --> 0:18:25.879 just you know, gave us the freedom and the ability 0:18:25.920 --> 0:18:29.080 to think outside the box, and he encouraged and welcomed 0:18:29.080 --> 0:18:31.760 that thinking, which matched his thinking about I'm going to 0:18:31.800 --> 0:18:36.040 build a you know, a club where we're going to 0:18:36.160 --> 0:18:38.200 embrace the spirit of match play and we're going to 0:18:38.320 --> 0:18:42.120 just enjoy that that component of the game. So it's 0:18:42.440 --> 0:18:45.080 one of the most special and interesting projects that we've 0:18:45.080 --> 0:18:47.840 ever been involved with, and I am excited for people 0:18:48.200 --> 0:18:50.440 to get a look at it. 0:18:50.520 --> 0:18:56.399 Something I noticed with stream song Black a Hoopie even 0:18:56.640 --> 0:19:02.679 yesterday walking around Pinehurst Fourth, like, is walkability something that 0:19:02.760 --> 0:19:06.399 you think about, like because those were some of the 0:19:06.440 --> 0:19:09.720 most walkable courses, like even compared to the other courses 0:19:09.800 --> 0:19:12.840 that stream song Black, I feel like you're fresher after 0:19:12.960 --> 0:19:15.320 around at Black than you are at you know, one 0:19:15.320 --> 0:19:18.120 of the other courses is do you think about that? 0:19:18.520 --> 0:19:22.080 We do, because I mean, we're big believers that walking 0:19:22.200 --> 0:19:23.720 is the way the game is supposed to be played. 0:19:23.760 --> 0:19:26.480 And then we would never begrudge somebody who physically needs 0:19:26.480 --> 0:19:28.800 a cart and that's the only way they can play golf. 0:19:28.840 --> 0:19:32.720 You know, that's great, go ahead and take a cart. 0:19:32.800 --> 0:19:35.320 I mean, we're big, big proponents of push carts. I 0:19:35.359 --> 0:19:37.040 think that you know, pull carts, whatever you want to 0:19:37.080 --> 0:19:40.200 call them. I think that that unfortunately, there's a stigma 0:19:40.200 --> 0:19:42.199 around that here in the United States, which you know, 0:19:42.359 --> 0:19:44.560 you go to the best clubs in Britain or in 0:19:44.600 --> 0:19:47.760 Australia and everybody's pulling their clubs around. I think anything 0:19:47.840 --> 0:19:51.080 you can do to get people to walk is that 0:19:51.240 --> 0:19:54.359 it's the essence of the game. And you know, golf 0:19:54.400 --> 0:19:58.520 courses have always been meant to be enjoyed at a 0:19:58.560 --> 0:20:01.159 walking pace. You know, Jim and I refer to it 0:20:01.160 --> 0:20:03.320 as golf at fifty five miles an hour. When you're 0:20:03.320 --> 0:20:05.880 in a cart, you're just blowing through the landscape. You're 0:20:05.920 --> 0:20:08.320 not in touch with it, You're not in contact with 0:20:08.400 --> 0:20:12.640 the ground, you're not feeling the undulations, you're not visiting 0:20:12.680 --> 0:20:14.919 with everybody in your group. You know, if you and 0:20:14.960 --> 0:20:18.680 I are playing in a cart, we're basically spending four hours, 0:20:18.680 --> 0:20:22.280 well hopefully it's only four hours, you know, together, you know, 0:20:22.720 --> 0:20:24.480 whereas the other two guys, we're just going to see 0:20:24.520 --> 0:20:25.840 them up on the green and then that's it, and 0:20:25.840 --> 0:20:27.159 that's the only time we're going to get to be 0:20:27.200 --> 0:20:30.680 with him. Whereas when you're walking, you're you're constantly changed 0:20:30.720 --> 0:20:33.760 depending on which direction your ball went, You're walking with 0:20:33.840 --> 0:20:36.399 a different person, and you're getting sort of to enjoy 0:20:36.480 --> 0:20:41.120 that experience much more so. It's in our minds. Walking 0:20:42.359 --> 0:20:46.000 gets you the feeling of being in nature. Being on 0:20:46.040 --> 0:20:49.920 the ground sets the right pace for the game of golf. 0:20:49.960 --> 0:20:53.119 So anything we can do within our designs to help 0:20:54.400 --> 0:20:56.960 keep that in the forefront. So we do. We put 0:20:57.000 --> 0:21:00.399 teas and greens in close proximity. We look at the 0:21:00.440 --> 0:21:02.600 opportunities that exist where not a lot of people are 0:21:02.640 --> 0:21:04.360 going to be playing the back tea, So maybe we'll 0:21:04.359 --> 0:21:06.480 sneak the back teas a little bit closer and then 0:21:06.560 --> 0:21:09.520 so you're just kind of that then makes the forward 0:21:09.560 --> 0:21:12.600 t s, you know, sort of walking in progression. You know, 0:21:12.640 --> 0:21:15.800 you're just sort of moving in those directions in that direction. 0:21:15.880 --> 0:21:17.360 So I think it's one of those things where we're 0:21:18.359 --> 0:21:22.040 we're cognizant of it. We're big believers that we want 0:21:22.080 --> 0:21:24.600 to push the envelope as much as we can to 0:21:25.400 --> 0:21:29.560 enable walking to be comfortable. And you know, I think 0:21:29.600 --> 0:21:31.360 one of the things we love so much about these 0:21:31.359 --> 0:21:33.760 great old classic golf courses. We love the features, we 0:21:33.840 --> 0:21:35.919 love the variety, we love the way that they sit 0:21:36.000 --> 0:21:39.000 in the landscape, but we also love that compact nature 0:21:39.080 --> 0:21:43.359 of just sort of green next tea, and there's just 0:21:43.400 --> 0:21:47.439 something that's right about that. And you know, unfortunately, a 0:21:47.480 --> 0:21:51.439 lot of what went wrong with golf architecture in the 0:21:51.560 --> 0:21:54.200 nineties and two thousands is just, you know, the golf 0:21:54.240 --> 0:21:58.080 courses weren't being built where golf was the primary focus. 0:21:58.359 --> 0:22:00.640 A lot of them were real estate driven, and that 0:22:00.760 --> 0:22:04.320 just lent to the cart mentality and not just couldn't 0:22:04.359 --> 0:22:07.600 physically walk the golf courses. There's so much separation between holes, 0:22:07.640 --> 0:22:11.280 and so I think what we're focused on, what Bill 0:22:11.320 --> 0:22:13.679 and Ben do, what Tom Doak does. I mean, we 0:22:13.760 --> 0:22:17.120 really are trying. We've been really fortunate to have these 0:22:17.160 --> 0:22:20.040 types of landscapes where we can build walking golf courses 0:22:20.080 --> 0:22:25.600 and owners that embrace that feel. But within within that, 0:22:25.680 --> 0:22:28.000 we feel very strongly that we want to push the 0:22:28.080 --> 0:22:30.720 envelope as close as we can to make the golf 0:22:30.760 --> 0:22:32.320 courses as compact as possible. 0:22:33.760 --> 0:22:37.800 We talked about par with regards to a hoopie. If 0:22:37.880 --> 0:22:41.560 you could remove par from one of your other courses, 0:22:42.320 --> 0:22:43.280 which one would it be? 0:22:47.119 --> 0:22:50.440 Probably the Olympic course, I think the Olympic course in Rio. 0:22:50.680 --> 0:22:53.000 You know, we purposely designed it as a par seventy 0:22:53.040 --> 0:22:57.600 one because we didn't want We thought that in a 0:22:57.680 --> 0:23:00.960 developing country or with the golf course is going to 0:23:01.000 --> 0:23:02.520 be on the world stage and a lot of sort 0:23:02.560 --> 0:23:07.080 of developing countries watching golf in the Olympics, that there 0:23:07.160 --> 0:23:09.359 was the opportunity to show that golf doesn't have to 0:23:09.400 --> 0:23:12.200 be seventy five hundred yards par seventy two, that there 0:23:12.240 --> 0:23:15.040 can be a differentiation in par and par seventy one 0:23:15.160 --> 0:23:18.439 is fine. So we built that golf course with a 0:23:18.480 --> 0:23:21.439 ton of half par holes, really just thinking that the 0:23:21.480 --> 0:23:25.159 flexibility that's afforded in that would would be fun to 0:23:25.280 --> 0:23:28.159 watch and fun to play. So I think if that 0:23:28.200 --> 0:23:31.440 golf course really just par was irrelevant and it was 0:23:31.520 --> 0:23:33.679 just go out there and play golf. And I really 0:23:33.720 --> 0:23:36.040 really wish that golf in the Olympics would have had 0:23:36.040 --> 0:23:38.520 a matchplay component to it would have been so much. 0:23:40.160 --> 0:23:41.840 I think from our standpoint, it would have been much 0:23:41.840 --> 0:23:44.040 more compelling and interesting, and that could have been a 0:23:44.040 --> 0:23:47.440 team competition, and you know, it was great. We were 0:23:47.560 --> 0:23:49.920 fortunate that we got to see Justin Rose and Hendrick 0:23:49.960 --> 0:23:53.440 Stintson battle down the final golf hole and make decisions 0:23:53.920 --> 0:23:56.479 on how they played that golf hole to win a 0:23:56.480 --> 0:23:59.200 gold medal, and so I think from that standpoint it 0:23:59.320 --> 0:24:02.840 was exciting and thrilling. But it would have been so 0:24:02.920 --> 0:24:04.800 cool to see people see them play match play on 0:24:04.840 --> 0:24:05.560 that golf course. 0:24:06.520 --> 0:24:10.280 Yeah, I think if they did the way the ncaaas 0:24:10.359 --> 0:24:13.080 have it with like they do this stroke play and 0:24:13.119 --> 0:24:15.719 then they got eight teams in advance and they do 0:24:15.800 --> 0:24:19.800 match play, and it would be really cool. But I 0:24:19.840 --> 0:24:23.160 think that people always say, well, like fielding a team 0:24:23.200 --> 0:24:25.760 of four is a lot harder for a lot of countries, 0:24:25.840 --> 0:24:29.320 or five fielding a team of five, But I think 0:24:29.359 --> 0:24:31.920 that would lend itself to upsets too, so it would 0:24:31.920 --> 0:24:33.720 be kind of neat to see if somebody could take 0:24:33.760 --> 0:24:34.440 down America. 0:24:34.840 --> 0:24:37.199 I agree. And then the other thing is that you 0:24:37.200 --> 0:24:38.840 know all you need are too, I mean, you just 0:24:38.920 --> 0:24:42.199 need to to make make a team, and you know, 0:24:42.400 --> 0:24:44.719 you look at all the other sports and if a country, 0:24:44.920 --> 0:24:47.000 you know, there are a lot more American swimmers in 0:24:47.080 --> 0:24:50.240 other countries because they qualify, and if the more Americans qualify, 0:24:50.240 --> 0:24:53.000 are more Brits qualify, well, then that's because they've earned it, 0:24:53.000 --> 0:24:55.280 it's not because it was given to them. So if 0:24:55.320 --> 0:24:59.119 the Americans can feel two teams of two and you 0:24:59.119 --> 0:25:01.840 know Sweden can only field one team of two, well 0:25:01.920 --> 0:25:04.800 that's just because the way the ranking system is set up. 0:25:04.840 --> 0:25:08.240 So there were a lot of reasons for why they 0:25:08.240 --> 0:25:09.760 did what they did, and at the end of the day, 0:25:09.760 --> 0:25:12.159 it was very successful. So there's you know, you really 0:25:12.240 --> 0:25:15.960 it's hard to complain, but I think us purists would 0:25:16.000 --> 0:25:17.960 have liked to have seen things a little bit more creative. 0:25:19.080 --> 0:25:23.040 Building the cradle here at Pinehurst Short Course nine hole 0:25:23.480 --> 0:25:28.359 Part three. I guess what kind of different liberties and 0:25:28.560 --> 0:25:30.600 different things can you do when you're doing a short 0:25:30.600 --> 0:25:33.320 course versus a regulation course. 0:25:34.560 --> 0:25:37.719 Well, the thing about the Cradle was that everything about 0:25:37.760 --> 0:25:41.080 it was predicated on fun. I mean, we like to 0:25:41.080 --> 0:25:43.359 try and build golf courses that are fun to play, 0:25:43.359 --> 0:25:45.040 and you know, some people say we do a good 0:25:45.119 --> 0:25:47.080 job of that. Some people say we don't. There's some 0:25:47.240 --> 0:25:52.240 two difficults occasionally, but you know, we we think and 0:25:52.280 --> 0:25:54.200 we've read a lot about it. You know, I think 0:25:54.200 --> 0:25:56.880 it was Simpson and Simpson and Weather. It's book about 0:25:56.880 --> 0:25:59.560 a sense of humor and golf architecture, and I think that, 0:25:59.720 --> 0:26:01.800 you know, a lot of the earlier architects felt like 0:26:01.840 --> 0:26:06.840 that was important. Part of the personality of a golf 0:26:06.880 --> 0:26:10.280 course was that you wanted to have some humor in there. 0:26:10.320 --> 0:26:14.119 And so when we were tasked to try and figure 0:26:14.160 --> 0:26:17.359 out how to lay out a short course on the 0:26:17.400 --> 0:26:20.679 ground that they gave us, Jim and I looked at 0:26:20.760 --> 0:26:23.400 and just thought about fun. Let's just build fun holes. 0:26:23.480 --> 0:26:26.400 Let's try and build a variety of ways to play 0:26:26.440 --> 0:26:29.480 these golf holes, a variety of ways to approach them 0:26:29.480 --> 0:26:32.000 and attack them. Let's try and make them feel like 0:26:32.040 --> 0:26:36.800 they sit in the landscape quite nicely. There was no 0:26:37.119 --> 0:26:40.120 edict to build nine holes. It was just whatever fit. 0:26:41.200 --> 0:26:43.960 Jim and I both thought that if we could retain 0:26:44.160 --> 0:26:47.280 the two greens that were there. So the originally where 0:26:47.280 --> 0:26:51.240 the cradle sits was originally holes one on courses three 0:26:51.240 --> 0:26:55.520 and five, and so we kept the two greens just 0:26:55.520 --> 0:26:57.800 as sort of an homage to the work to the 0:26:57.800 --> 0:27:00.639 holes that were there. So that was always going to 0:27:00.640 --> 0:27:02.080 be part of the routing. So then it was just 0:27:02.119 --> 0:27:05.880 how do we tackle this side hill site and try 0:27:05.880 --> 0:27:10.560 and get a variety of lengths and angles et cetera, 0:27:10.600 --> 0:27:13.040 et cetera an uphill downhill. And so once that all 0:27:13.040 --> 0:27:15.840 fell into place, it became a focus on just fun, 0:27:16.359 --> 0:27:19.119 you know, and we we looked at how do you 0:27:19.160 --> 0:27:23.120 play the you know, punch bowl green. We we purposely 0:27:23.200 --> 0:27:25.880 put a flat spot above that green so people could 0:27:25.920 --> 0:27:28.480 sit and you know, ad arondick chairs and watch shots 0:27:28.520 --> 0:27:31.359 come into it and cheer and yell or whatever. So 0:27:31.440 --> 0:27:35.840 it was one of these things where again a little 0:27:35.840 --> 0:27:38.520 bit like a whoopie, where you just you weren't worried 0:27:38.560 --> 0:27:41.919 about the quote unquote shot values. You know, oh, is 0:27:41.960 --> 0:27:44.199 this green going to be receptive to a to a 0:27:44.280 --> 0:27:48.000 four hybrid or what's the potential range of shots people 0:27:48.040 --> 0:27:50.080 are going to hit into this green? And what angle. 0:27:50.600 --> 0:27:52.520 It was just like, Okay, people are going to drop 0:27:52.560 --> 0:27:53.879 a ball on this tea and they're going to hit 0:27:53.880 --> 0:27:55.520 They're going to figure out the best way to get 0:27:55.560 --> 0:27:58.400 onto the green. And for the most part the shots 0:27:58.440 --> 0:28:01.640 are under one hundred yards, so everybody should be able 0:28:01.680 --> 0:28:03.520 to tackle that. And I think one of the nicest 0:28:04.400 --> 0:28:07.680 compliments we got was from Rand Moore as set who 0:28:07.920 --> 0:28:11.000 you know, golf club atleast he played out there and 0:28:11.040 --> 0:28:13.200 he just loved He said, you know, there's you can 0:28:13.240 --> 0:28:18.199 see that every class of player can find, you know, 0:28:18.280 --> 0:28:21.320 a challenge level that's acceptable to their game. There's a 0:28:21.320 --> 0:28:23.720 lot you know, you can put you can literally put 0:28:23.760 --> 0:28:27.360 on every single hole if you wanted to, or there 0:28:27.359 --> 0:28:29.800 are whole locations there where a guy like yourself who's 0:28:29.800 --> 0:28:32.119 an accomplished players. You got to hit some shots. I 0:28:32.160 --> 0:28:35.320 mean you really, you can't just fake it. But if 0:28:35.359 --> 0:28:37.520 you're not worried about posting a score and you're just 0:28:37.560 --> 0:28:39.400 out there, I mean, Tracy and I have played at 0:28:39.400 --> 0:28:41.320 a number of times. We play in forty five minutes, 0:28:41.360 --> 0:28:43.400 we have a ball. I mean, it's just it's all 0:28:43.440 --> 0:28:47.160 about fun and that's that's I think something that's been 0:28:47.160 --> 0:28:49.080 missing from the game. A little bit. And I think 0:28:49.080 --> 0:28:52.640 if we can inject that into into the game and 0:28:52.680 --> 0:28:57.560 get people attracted to the game, or you know, just 0:28:57.640 --> 0:28:59.520 sort of say, hey, this is a there's a much 0:28:59.560 --> 0:29:02.800 more vibe that goes with this setting here as opposed 0:29:02.840 --> 0:29:06.400 to a lot of the sort of high stress levels 0:29:06.400 --> 0:29:09.160 that people associate with golf, especially when they're first coming 0:29:09.200 --> 0:29:12.280 to the game, then I think The Cradle will be 0:29:12.280 --> 0:29:14.320 be successful in that regard. And I mean it's and 0:29:14.360 --> 0:29:16.280 they gave us the front yard of the resort. I 0:29:16.280 --> 0:29:18.200 mean you walk right out of the clubhouse and it's 0:29:18.240 --> 0:29:21.160 just there, right there in your face. And for Pinehurst 0:29:21.240 --> 0:29:26.240 to recognize that, you know, this prime real estate should 0:29:26.240 --> 0:29:28.560 be dedicated to fun and just people out there having 0:29:28.600 --> 0:29:30.840 a good time, I think really sends a great message 0:29:30.840 --> 0:29:33.000 to the rest of the golf industry of where some 0:29:33.080 --> 0:29:34.320 of our priorities should be. 0:29:35.160 --> 0:29:38.360 It's funny. I played. I went around it a couple 0:29:38.400 --> 0:29:42.360 of times, and I played with this older gentleman one time, 0:29:42.520 --> 0:29:45.360 and I just was using a seven iron and a putter, 0:29:46.240 --> 0:29:49.240 and I could see him like looking into his bag 0:29:49.640 --> 0:29:52.440 and he's like, oh, dang, I forgot my because like 0:29:52.480 --> 0:29:54.720 he had like a nine iron through wedge and he 0:29:54.760 --> 0:29:56.880 didn't hit it very far, but you could tell like 0:29:57.240 --> 0:30:00.160 he saw me like running it off different stuff, and 0:30:00.200 --> 0:30:02.440 like he wanted to do it. And it's so interesting 0:30:02.440 --> 0:30:06.360 because it brings I think that these types of courses 0:30:06.800 --> 0:30:11.720 have the you know, ability to get people to use 0:30:11.720 --> 0:30:14.760 their imagination more on the golf course as opposed to 0:30:14.800 --> 0:30:16.880 the traditional aerial American golf. 0:30:17.520 --> 0:30:19.080 I agree. I mean, I think it's one of the 0:30:19.120 --> 0:30:22.240 things that we love to put into our designs and 0:30:22.280 --> 0:30:24.520 we love watching. You know, Augustus seems to be the 0:30:24.520 --> 0:30:26.040 one time of year where you actually get to see 0:30:26.080 --> 0:30:29.360 it on TV or the Open Championship. Is that, you know, 0:30:29.360 --> 0:30:32.280 when guys look in a different direction to get from 0:30:32.280 --> 0:30:34.360 A to B as opposed to the direct line, and 0:30:34.680 --> 0:30:37.680 I think that that adds so much to the fund 0:30:37.760 --> 0:30:40.960 quote and the fun factor as we say, so, I 0:30:41.720 --> 0:30:43.480 think that's great that he was able to see that. 0:30:43.560 --> 0:30:46.400 I mean, that's one of the nice things about the 0:30:46.440 --> 0:30:49.560 Cradle is when you walk past it or when you 0:30:49.640 --> 0:30:52.080 drive past it and you just see the smiles on 0:30:52.120 --> 0:30:54.560 the people's faces and you see grandparents out there with 0:30:54.600 --> 0:30:58.360 their grandkids. In a way, it's almost the most successful 0:30:58.360 --> 0:31:02.720 thing we've ever done. Because it has captured the imagination 0:31:02.920 --> 0:31:06.360 and it's it's really done. Is everything we had hoped 0:31:06.360 --> 0:31:09.360 it would do. It seems to be doing, and that's 0:31:09.440 --> 0:31:11.840 that's really gratifying or rewarding in itself. 0:31:13.400 --> 0:31:18.760 Say you were tasked with building a municipal course, what 0:31:18.840 --> 0:31:21.920 would you what would be the core principles? 0:31:23.440 --> 0:31:25.400 You know, I don't think the core principles would change 0:31:25.400 --> 0:31:31.840 from what we believe in. You know, I think we 0:31:31.560 --> 0:31:34.680 we try not to dumb down golf courses just because 0:31:34.720 --> 0:31:38.239 of you know, we maybe put like we did at 0:31:38.240 --> 0:31:42.160 the Olympic course, maybe more short grass quote unquote hazards, uh, 0:31:42.400 --> 0:31:44.720 you know, humps and bumps and hollows that you play 0:31:44.760 --> 0:31:50.240 through instead of bunkers. But we like to build wide 0:31:50.240 --> 0:31:52.800 golf courses, so I think it would stay wide. I 0:31:52.840 --> 0:31:56.200 think that the recovery options would still be there. I 0:31:56.200 --> 0:32:01.600 think angles would still be relevant. You know. It's it's 0:32:01.640 --> 0:32:04.640 not something that we go into each project and we say, hey, 0:32:04.720 --> 0:32:09.160 this is this is X. I mean we obviously the 0:32:09.200 --> 0:32:11.400 client is going to dictate some of that. I mean 0:32:11.440 --> 0:32:13.320 they're going to say this is you know what we've 0:32:13.400 --> 0:32:17.280 hired you. Let's and we have the conversation this is 0:32:17.320 --> 0:32:19.040 what we need to accomplish, this is what we want 0:32:19.080 --> 0:32:22.200 to do. So a municipality would have its requirements and 0:32:22.240 --> 0:32:24.600 we'd have to accommodate those types of things. But from 0:32:24.600 --> 0:32:27.280 a design standpoint, we would really I think focus on 0:32:27.320 --> 0:32:30.080 trying to still build a compelling and interesting test because 0:32:31.400 --> 0:32:34.479 I think people like it. I mean, it's not a 0:32:34.480 --> 0:32:38.200 class thing, like good design doesn't belong in a certain class. 0:32:38.200 --> 0:32:41.480 It's only it's not only for wealthy private clubs. It's 0:32:41.480 --> 0:32:45.920 for everybody. And you can see, you know, goat Hill 0:32:46.080 --> 0:32:50.200 in California, you know, Winter Park in Orlando. I mean, 0:32:50.240 --> 0:32:54.320 these are fun and interesting courses that are very playable, 0:32:54.400 --> 0:32:58.880 yet they're sound architecturally. They're not just sort of you know, okay, 0:32:58.920 --> 0:33:01.840 just beat it around and known attention. So I think 0:33:01.840 --> 0:33:04.400 we would always still try to focus on building interesting 0:33:04.400 --> 0:33:07.400 golf courses, no matter what the what the setting. 0:33:09.040 --> 0:33:11.720 Yeah, that's I think there's a huge market there in 0:33:11.760 --> 0:33:15.440 the future of doing stuff that's good instead of just 0:33:15.520 --> 0:33:18.920 having like the monotonous uni that I grew up playing. 0:33:20.640 --> 0:33:24.880 So as far as golf courses around the country, you know, 0:33:25.520 --> 0:33:29.120 so you get ten rounds, you can take multiple at 0:33:29.680 --> 0:33:32.880 different courses, you can you could use all ten at 0:33:32.880 --> 0:33:35.800 one if you want it. What would be your what 0:33:35.840 --> 0:33:39.800 would be how would you split them? Boy? 0:33:39.800 --> 0:33:44.280 Oh boy, that's a good one. Hard, it really is. 0:33:44.360 --> 0:33:46.600 I mean you'd have to you'd have to say, or 0:33:46.600 --> 0:33:49.800 if I was going to play multiple rounds, it would 0:33:49.800 --> 0:33:52.400 probably be at National Golf Lins. I mean, that's like 0:33:52.560 --> 0:33:55.160 my aside from the old course. So you did ask 0:33:55.200 --> 0:33:56.520 me in the United States, so I. 0:33:56.480 --> 0:33:58.560 Mean, yeah, we'll keep it to the US. Yeah. 0:33:58.880 --> 0:34:02.800 National would probably be three rounds, I'd have to say, 0:34:02.960 --> 0:34:05.720 because it's just all about fun. I mean, I'm going 0:34:05.760 --> 0:34:08.520 an average golfer at best, so I don't need to 0:34:08.560 --> 0:34:11.279 get beat up. And you can get beat up at 0:34:11.360 --> 0:34:13.279 National if you're not paying attention. But you can also 0:34:13.320 --> 0:34:16.400 have the most fun golf experience you've ever had in 0:34:16.400 --> 0:34:19.359 your life. So I think that that would be we'll 0:34:19.360 --> 0:34:22.759 say three there. You've got a Fisher's Island shirt on, 0:34:22.880 --> 0:34:24.799 so that would at least be one or two there 0:34:24.880 --> 0:34:27.960 again just for the beauty. And the thing about Fishers 0:34:28.040 --> 0:34:30.719 is that you know, everybody talks about the views, but 0:34:30.800 --> 0:34:34.120 they're such great architecture there. I mean rain or the 0:34:34.160 --> 0:34:37.319 angles and the things, the landforms he used and the 0:34:37.360 --> 0:34:38.120 setup I mean. 0:34:38.040 --> 0:34:40.879 It is the spines and the greens. Yeah, I mean 0:34:41.440 --> 0:34:47.200 that's the stuff that like he had those bold external contours, 0:34:47.560 --> 0:34:50.800 but then when you look at the interiors of the greens, 0:34:50.960 --> 0:34:54.719 I think that's where he's unbeliev I mean, like the 0:34:54.760 --> 0:34:57.400 greens are just unbelievable. At every rainer you go to, 0:34:57.520 --> 0:35:01.959 you look at like what's inside, and then the unpinnable surfaces, 0:35:02.000 --> 0:35:04.440 Like I think that's something that people just don't understand. 0:35:04.440 --> 0:35:05.680 It's unpinnable surface. 0:35:06.160 --> 0:35:10.080 Yeah, and it's yeah, I mean, Fisher's is a special 0:35:10.120 --> 0:35:12.279 place and we've had the great fortune of being their 0:35:12.320 --> 0:35:15.239 consulting architects for twenty plus years, so it's been just 0:35:15.280 --> 0:35:20.719 this sort of uncovering, peeling back the layers of and it. Yeah, 0:35:20.760 --> 0:35:23.400 it's a wonderful, wonderful spot. So that would get me 0:35:23.440 --> 0:35:26.200 another one Cyprus Point you'd have to put in there, 0:35:26.280 --> 0:35:30.600 so that gets me to five La North would be another. 0:35:31.960 --> 0:35:35.600 Just again, I think you know, our experience is there, 0:35:35.640 --> 0:35:38.719 how much we've learned, and just how enjoyable, how playable 0:35:38.719 --> 0:35:46.360 it is Pine Valley again, just for the sheer perfection 0:35:46.560 --> 0:35:50.200 of eighteen holes routed through an amazing landscape and having 0:35:50.280 --> 0:35:55.400 the variety and the drama. I mean talking about eighteen 0:35:56.000 --> 0:36:00.719 unforgettable holes on a golf course, that's that would be 0:36:00.719 --> 0:36:07.960 another one. You know, fun fun, fun golf would be 0:36:08.120 --> 0:36:10.920 like Myopia Hunt Club. I mean, that's just a blast 0:36:11.000 --> 0:36:13.719 to be out in that setting. And now I'm like 0:36:13.800 --> 0:36:15.839 totally on the snob appeal here, right because I've got 0:36:15.920 --> 0:36:20.840 like all these top private clubs, and you know that 0:36:21.000 --> 0:36:23.520 the one golf course that we've built, I think that's 0:36:23.600 --> 0:36:26.600 nine so hopefully ten that every time I play it, 0:36:27.520 --> 0:36:29.440 I go, man, I wish I played here more as 0:36:29.520 --> 0:36:33.560 Boston Golf Club. There's just something about it. It's it's 0:36:34.360 --> 0:36:36.560 you know, I think it was early on in our career. 0:36:36.680 --> 0:36:39.000 We had the luxury of a lot of time. You know, 0:36:39.040 --> 0:36:41.600 the owner there was the owners were sort of, hey, 0:36:41.800 --> 0:36:43.880 let's take two years to build this. This is Boston. 0:36:43.920 --> 0:36:46.560 You know, the weather's not going to cooperate. Gave us 0:36:46.560 --> 0:36:49.799 a great piece of ground, and there's just, again, I think, 0:36:49.800 --> 0:36:52.239 an emphasis on what we believe in architecture, a lot 0:36:52.239 --> 0:36:54.239 of fun. There's a lot of with there's trouble. I mean, 0:36:54.280 --> 0:36:56.279 you can you can get yourself in places that you 0:36:56.280 --> 0:36:57.680 don't want to be, So there's a little bit of 0:36:57.719 --> 0:37:01.000 Pine Valley in it in that regard, But I think, yeah, 0:37:01.040 --> 0:37:03.400 if we had to pick, and I'm going to piss 0:37:03.400 --> 0:37:06.000 off all the other clubs we've ever built or designed, 0:37:06.040 --> 0:37:08.920 but you know, I think probably one round of Boston 0:37:08.920 --> 0:37:09.959 Golf Club would be fun. 0:37:10.480 --> 0:37:14.239 It's funny though, because like that answer could change, like 0:37:14.320 --> 0:37:17.560 three months later, you could play somewhere. That's like the 0:37:17.600 --> 0:37:19.759 beauty of golf course. You play somewhere. The more you 0:37:19.800 --> 0:37:23.439 play somewhere, even more you appreciate it. You might learn 0:37:23.520 --> 0:37:26.799 something about someplace, Like you're one hundred and fiftieth time 0:37:26.840 --> 0:37:29.279 around that you're like the light goes on, you know, 0:37:29.360 --> 0:37:30.600 and you're like, whoa. 0:37:30.840 --> 0:37:32.480 Yeah, and I mean I'm sitting here now and I'm 0:37:32.520 --> 0:37:33.839 just in the back of my head, I'm going, well, 0:37:33.960 --> 0:37:36.200 you know, sand Hills, duh. I mean that was just 0:37:36.320 --> 0:37:40.280 you know, you just there's so many great golf courses 0:37:40.320 --> 0:37:42.839 that are out there that you know, obviously, we're all 0:37:42.880 --> 0:37:45.880 fortunate to anybody who's listening to this is interested in 0:37:46.239 --> 0:37:49.520 what we do and in this topic in particular, where 0:37:49.520 --> 0:37:54.640 there's just yeah, that ten ten, that's a tough one. 0:37:55.200 --> 0:37:57.960 You may have to peel one of nationals back and 0:37:58.440 --> 0:37:59.840 put sand hills in there. 0:38:00.880 --> 0:38:04.719 Say you get one hole in your backyard, it could 0:38:04.760 --> 0:38:07.680 be someone else's hole, it could be one of your holes. 0:38:08.880 --> 0:38:09.480 What would it be. 0:38:16.400 --> 0:38:21.400 Yeah, the one of my favorite holes to play in 0:38:21.440 --> 0:38:25.520 the world is number four at Fishers Island. So you know, 0:38:25.640 --> 0:38:27.879 the nice thing about that is the Atlantic Ocean would 0:38:27.920 --> 0:38:29.800 be in my backyard. So that would be a really 0:38:29.840 --> 0:38:33.040 cool uh you know obviously, yeah, exactly, that would be 0:38:33.040 --> 0:38:35.960 a pretty exciting place to sit. But yeah, for it 0:38:35.680 --> 0:38:39.520 at Fishers is so cool. I mean, it's just, you know, 0:38:39.600 --> 0:38:42.040 the combination of the alps in the punch bowl is 0:38:42.200 --> 0:38:46.480 really special and unique and different, and just the the 0:38:46.520 --> 0:38:50.000 t shot, you know, with the ocean lurking down the 0:38:50.040 --> 0:38:51.920 right hand side, but the further you know, it's one 0:38:51.960 --> 0:38:53.880 of those things you talk about. Everybody's overwhelmed by the 0:38:53.880 --> 0:38:55.920 beauty of that golf hole, but it really is a 0:38:55.960 --> 0:38:58.319 strategic hole. You play close to that edge and you 0:38:58.360 --> 0:39:01.960 actually get a look around the corner to the bowl. Now, granted, 0:39:02.560 --> 0:39:04.319 with the way people hit it now, it might be 0:39:04.360 --> 0:39:09.360 a little bit short for better players, but it's just 0:39:09.360 --> 0:39:11.839 put a hickory driver out exactly, Yeah, and just knock 0:39:11.880 --> 0:39:15.120 it around with that. But every time I walk over 0:39:15.200 --> 0:39:18.120 that hill and look down into that bowl, and the 0:39:18.160 --> 0:39:21.360 anticipation of where's my shot? Where is where did it find? 0:39:21.640 --> 0:39:25.759 I love that. I never ever get tired of that 0:39:25.960 --> 0:39:29.560 type of shot. I know some people really dislike blind shots, 0:39:29.600 --> 0:39:32.320 but in my mind that that's one of the greatest 0:39:32.360 --> 0:39:36.279 walks we talk about walking golf courses. I feel like 0:39:36.360 --> 0:39:39.160 people get robbed when they play that golf hole in 0:39:39.200 --> 0:39:41.839 a cart because they drive around the side and they 0:39:41.880 --> 0:39:44.560 never get that experience of coming up and over and 0:39:44.600 --> 0:39:47.799 walking down into that bowl, Because that, in my mind 0:39:47.920 --> 0:39:51.320 is just it's a glorious setting. But there's a combination 0:39:51.400 --> 0:39:53.960 of the beauty of the setting and with that anticipation 0:39:54.120 --> 0:39:58.040 of the result, And I just think that. 0:39:57.880 --> 0:40:05.560 That's fun stretch of three through Like I think twelve 0:40:05.640 --> 0:40:07.759 is like the most underrated hole out there, but like 0:40:07.800 --> 0:40:11.319 three through twelve, I mean, thirteenth, they're all good, but 0:40:11.760 --> 0:40:14.120 three through twelve is like one of the most exhilarating 0:40:14.160 --> 0:40:16.120 stretches of golf in the world. 0:40:16.440 --> 0:40:19.600 I agree, it really is. It's a special special place. 0:40:20.120 --> 0:40:22.719 Have you ever walked around on that. You know, most 0:40:22.719 --> 0:40:25.359 people don't know that there was originally thirty six holes 0:40:25.440 --> 0:40:26.000 routed there. 0:40:26.719 --> 0:40:30.759 Yes, yeah, I've never I've never tried to walk the 0:40:30.800 --> 0:40:33.239 other golf course. I know where it was intended to be, 0:40:33.320 --> 0:40:35.919 but did you try and walk all eighteens? You getting 0:40:35.960 --> 0:40:37.200 kicked off of somebody's proby. 0:40:37.600 --> 0:40:40.160 I just got the book and I was reading about 0:40:40.200 --> 0:40:43.279 it and Rainer said it was maybe more dramatic than 0:40:43.760 --> 0:40:46.319 the other one. You always want it. It's like I 0:40:46.400 --> 0:40:49.000 always wonder what would have happened had the Great Depression 0:40:49.040 --> 0:40:55.240 not happened. Sure that just that killed golf in America. 0:40:55.320 --> 0:41:01.799 We do a overrated underrated segment, So okay, you have 0:41:01.880 --> 0:41:06.719 to either pick overrated or underrated on what you know 0:41:06.760 --> 0:41:09.960 these different topics. You can add explanation or you can 0:41:10.040 --> 0:41:16.160 just say one or the other. Okay, center line bunkers underrated. 0:41:16.600 --> 0:41:22.279 I think that they're they're interesting. We had recently put 0:41:22.320 --> 0:41:24.239 them in on a hole on the PGA Tour at 0:41:24.239 --> 0:41:29.080 TPC Boston, and the it was met with a vitriol 0:41:29.239 --> 0:41:32.600 of which we have not been familiar on a lot 0:41:32.640 --> 0:41:35.400 of our work. So unfortunately they've been removed from that 0:41:35.480 --> 0:41:38.480 golf hole. But I think they ask a question that 0:41:39.200 --> 0:41:45.160 most golfers are not comfortable answering, because we are. It's 0:41:45.200 --> 0:41:50.640 been so ingrained in us that the the technically perfect 0:41:50.680 --> 0:41:53.799 golf shot is down the middle of a hole, and 0:41:53.840 --> 0:41:57.520 when all of a sudden the architecture requires the technically 0:41:57.520 --> 0:42:00.719 perfect golf shot not to be struck or not, you 0:42:00.760 --> 0:42:03.160 know that it's going to get into trouble. People lose 0:42:03.160 --> 0:42:06.000 their minds on that, and I just think that that 0:42:06.560 --> 0:42:10.840 from an architects perspective, is a very interesting thing to 0:42:10.920 --> 0:42:13.000 try and insert. Now, you don't want eighteen holes of it, 0:42:13.080 --> 0:42:14.960 but you definitely want to put it in once or 0:42:15.000 --> 0:42:18.080 twice in a round and make people decide left or right. 0:42:18.160 --> 0:42:23.000 And you know, it's interesting. I've talked to some professional 0:42:23.080 --> 0:42:25.480 golfers and the hate that bunker in the middle of 0:42:25.520 --> 0:42:27.279 the fairway and it's like, well, why, well, that's right 0:42:27.320 --> 0:42:29.359 where I want to hit it. Well, like on this hole, 0:42:29.440 --> 0:42:31.120 you don't you either want to hit it short or 0:42:31.239 --> 0:42:33.600 left or go right of it or over it. Isn't 0:42:33.640 --> 0:42:35.359 that more interesting now because that's right where I want 0:42:35.360 --> 0:42:37.319 to hit it, And they just can't get it out 0:42:37.320 --> 0:42:40.160 of their head that that's not where you want to 0:42:40.160 --> 0:42:42.360 be on a hole. And so I guess from that standpoint, 0:42:42.960 --> 0:42:43.799 I really liked them. 0:42:43.800 --> 0:42:48.520 Actually, it's funny. There's a guy ahead on the podcast, 0:42:48.560 --> 0:42:53.400 Scott Fawcett. He does course management for like pros and 0:42:53.680 --> 0:42:57.880 high level players and college teams, and he talked about 0:42:57.880 --> 0:43:02.560 the formulaic nature of most golf course architecture and how 0:43:02.719 --> 0:43:05.759 he could do his job without it even really like 0:43:05.840 --> 0:43:10.560 studying the course. And then I saw a comment he 0:43:10.640 --> 0:43:13.160 made about Trinity Forrest where he thought it was silly 0:43:13.560 --> 0:43:15.920 and he could he was having trouble, And it's so 0:43:16.040 --> 0:43:20.680 funny because it's like, well, it's not formulaic there forces 0:43:20.719 --> 0:43:24.160 you to make decisions, decisions change on the daily basis. 0:43:24.200 --> 0:43:26.799 It's like, now, like how can you not say, like, 0:43:27.239 --> 0:43:32.440 who cares about score when something requires decision and execution 0:43:32.680 --> 0:43:34.279 versus just execution. 0:43:35.120 --> 0:43:37.560 I couldn't agree with you more. I'm excited to watch 0:43:37.600 --> 0:43:40.960 Trinity Forest and see what the players. The expectation is 0:43:40.960 --> 0:43:42.880 that a lot of them won't like it or get it. 0:43:44.080 --> 0:43:48.680 And you know that's unfortunate because anytime somebody tries to 0:43:48.719 --> 0:43:53.160 do something interesting and ask these questions of players and 0:43:53.200 --> 0:43:57.160 have them make decisions and have the the proper way 0:43:57.200 --> 0:44:00.960 to play a golf course when it's when it requires 0:44:02.239 --> 0:44:09.239 thoughtful consideration and study and care and approach that's the 0:44:09.360 --> 0:44:12.360 highest that's the highest point of golf course architecture. And 0:44:12.719 --> 0:44:16.640 when that happens a lot of times in professional events, 0:44:16.640 --> 0:44:20.120 it's poo pooed or say, well that's not right because 0:44:20.160 --> 0:44:22.479 it's like you said, it's not formulaic, it doesn't fit 0:44:22.520 --> 0:44:24.680 the mold. And so I think that it's going to 0:44:24.760 --> 0:44:28.400 require I would almost guarantee that the champion there is 0:44:28.400 --> 0:44:29.920 going to be a thoughtful player. Is going to be 0:44:29.960 --> 0:44:32.440 a player obviously who can control their ball in the wind, 0:44:32.560 --> 0:44:34.839 but is somebody who can actually think their way around 0:44:34.880 --> 0:44:37.440 a golf course and that that, in my mind, should 0:44:37.480 --> 0:44:40.160 be applauded at a higher level than the players who 0:44:40.200 --> 0:44:42.719 are just going to say I don't get this. You 0:44:42.760 --> 0:44:47.640 know that. Unfortunately, the way the media is not just 0:44:47.760 --> 0:44:50.560 golf media, all media, they want the negative. They want 0:44:50.600 --> 0:44:53.239 that big impact splash. Instead of a guy who says, hey, 0:44:53.320 --> 0:44:55.279 this is great, it's really thoughtful, et cetera. They want 0:44:55.280 --> 0:44:58.640 the guys as well, this sucks. And so that's unfortunately 0:44:58.640 --> 0:45:01.000 probably what we're going to hear more of. But I'll 0:45:01.040 --> 0:45:03.520 be excited to watch that torm, more excited than probably 0:45:03.520 --> 0:45:04.879 almost any tournament this year. 0:45:05.239 --> 0:45:06.920 And I'm calling it the fourth Major. 0:45:08.080 --> 0:45:08.680 I love it. 0:45:11.560 --> 0:45:14.239 Yeah, I hope, I hope it doesn't rain. That's like 0:45:14.320 --> 0:45:17.799 my I want. I just it's if it's firm. I 0:45:17.840 --> 0:45:24.720 think it'll be just fascinating to watch. I agree, So scale. 0:45:27.680 --> 0:45:31.680 Underrated. I think that scale is an important component of 0:45:31.719 --> 0:45:34.520 everything we do as golf course architects. I think that 0:45:34.600 --> 0:45:41.520 the uh, the appropriate scale, whether the human eye you know, 0:45:42.239 --> 0:45:45.400 sort of actively appreciates it. I think it's just the 0:45:45.480 --> 0:45:50.360 human eye and brain intuitively understands when something's in proper 0:45:50.360 --> 0:45:52.919 scale as opposed to out of scale. And I think 0:45:52.920 --> 0:45:55.040 golf courses that are out of scale or features that 0:45:55.080 --> 0:45:59.120 are out of scale just don't feel right. And I 0:45:59.160 --> 0:46:01.480 think that that's easy, you know. So I think that 0:46:01.800 --> 0:46:04.640 an understanding of scale is probably the most important thing 0:46:04.640 --> 0:46:07.120 I learned in landscape architecture. You know, a lot of 0:46:07.120 --> 0:46:11.240 what we studied there really had no relevancy to golf 0:46:11.280 --> 0:46:13.800 course design. But scale was one of the most important 0:46:13.800 --> 0:46:17.120 elements of sort of the arrangement of a landscape in 0:46:17.200 --> 0:46:21.359 scale and harmony with nature. I think every golf course, 0:46:21.400 --> 0:46:24.440 if you can accomplish those goals and make it feel 0:46:24.480 --> 0:46:26.720 like it's in harmony with its site and it's setting, 0:46:26.760 --> 0:46:30.759 and that the scale of it is appropriate from a 0:46:30.800 --> 0:46:33.360 presentation standpoint, those are the best golf courses. 0:46:35.160 --> 0:46:36.640 Philly cheese steaks. 0:46:40.080 --> 0:46:45.759 Real Philly cheese steaks are underrated outside of Philadelphia. I 0:46:45.800 --> 0:46:48.520 would never buy a cheese steak outside of Philadelphia. They're 0:46:48.560 --> 0:46:50.960 just horrible. There's just something. I don't know what it is. 0:46:50.960 --> 0:46:54.080 It's probably all the bad chemicals in the cheese whiz, 0:46:54.120 --> 0:46:56.360 et cetera that we put into them in Philadelphia. But 0:46:56.400 --> 0:46:58.440 they're in Philly, they're awesome. 0:46:59.040 --> 0:47:01.320 What's your spot in Philly? 0:47:01.960 --> 0:47:04.040 We just have a local place, you know. It's so 0:47:04.160 --> 0:47:06.560 we don't I don't go to patser Gino's, and you know, 0:47:06.600 --> 0:47:10.320 we'd rarely are in the city. You know, my days 0:47:10.320 --> 0:47:13.839 of drinking in excess until two am or over. So 0:47:13.920 --> 0:47:15.640 it's one of those things where I'm not going to 0:47:15.680 --> 0:47:18.160 show up at patser Gino's after being in South Street 0:47:18.200 --> 0:47:21.719 for you know, hours drinking beers. So it's just it's 0:47:21.760 --> 0:47:24.200 a it's a local spot for us that we go to. 0:47:24.239 --> 0:47:25.480 It's Anthony's in Malvern. 0:47:26.960 --> 0:47:29.760 I have Italian beefs are better than Philly cheese steaks, 0:47:30.400 --> 0:47:31.279 you know, a. 0:47:31.280 --> 0:47:34.719 Chicago absolutely all. I like the Chicago hot dogs was 0:47:34.760 --> 0:47:37.560 Vienna beef hot dogs. Those are awesome, and well the 0:47:37.880 --> 0:47:41.399 rolls with the little poppy seeds on fantastic, little sauer 0:47:41.440 --> 0:47:43.080 kraut and brown mustard perfect. 0:47:43.640 --> 0:47:48.000 Ah, not even having a real Chicago I know. 0:47:48.000 --> 0:47:51.680 I don't like all that fruity, relishy stuff and onions. 0:47:51.200 --> 0:47:55.640 And I don't either. I don't eat Chicago dogs, so 0:47:56.000 --> 0:47:57.880 I'll probably get a lot of hate mail from that. 0:47:58.320 --> 0:48:00.000 But what about desert golf. 0:48:04.880 --> 0:48:07.359 I don't really even think about desert golf all that much. 0:48:07.400 --> 0:48:09.360 I think there was a time where it was overrated 0:48:09.400 --> 0:48:11.800 because it was a novelty. It was sort of okay. 0:48:12.480 --> 0:48:14.680 You know, there's a time in the eighties and nineties 0:48:14.680 --> 0:48:19.040 where the dramatic sort of difference between green grass and 0:48:19.440 --> 0:48:24.360 desert landscape was to be promoted and sort of highly 0:48:24.400 --> 0:48:27.200 thought of as a new Hey, look at this is 0:48:27.200 --> 0:48:29.719 the new frontier. You know. Obviously people are moving to 0:48:29.800 --> 0:48:32.360 this area and now we can irrigate and build golf 0:48:32.360 --> 0:48:37.919 courses in it. I think if good architects build golf 0:48:37.960 --> 0:48:40.280 courses in those settings, like you know, Bill and Ben 0:48:41.040 --> 0:48:43.160 have done a few golf courses down there. I think 0:48:44.160 --> 0:48:48.000 Tom Weiskoff and the TPC Scottsdale is really thoughtful architecture 0:48:48.000 --> 0:48:50.359 and well laid out. So I mean, those I think 0:48:50.400 --> 0:48:53.840 are great golf are fantastic golf courses in a desert setting, 0:48:53.920 --> 0:48:57.560 but as the whole, the whole setting of what I've 0:48:57.600 --> 0:48:59.560 seen of desert golf is probably overrated. 0:49:02.360 --> 0:49:07.319 What's the last one? Who's the most underrated band? And 0:49:07.360 --> 0:49:09.200 who's the most overrated band? 0:49:10.239 --> 0:49:10.799 Wow? 0:49:11.120 --> 0:49:14.160 Wow, wow. 0:49:15.360 --> 0:49:19.759 Overrated. I've never been a fan of the Who. I 0:49:19.960 --> 0:49:22.239 just you know, I like LEDs, I mean of that 0:49:22.320 --> 0:49:25.360 sort of genre. I really enjoyed led Zeppelin and The Stones, 0:49:25.760 --> 0:49:30.319 but the Who is kind of I can I can 0:49:30.880 --> 0:49:33.520 give her. You know. One of the guys I played 0:49:33.560 --> 0:49:37.000 golf with he would play the Who Live It leads 0:49:37.120 --> 0:49:39.120 over and over again on when we were playing it. 0:49:39.160 --> 0:49:42.600 I think maybe that just totally put me off of them, 0:49:42.960 --> 0:49:48.719 So I'd say they're probably highly probably be my overrated band. Underrated. 0:49:52.040 --> 0:49:55.040 So I guess the answer to that question would would 0:49:55.080 --> 0:49:57.759 come if I could see any band sort of back 0:49:57.800 --> 0:50:00.439 together and play and you know, in their prime, yeah, 0:50:00.920 --> 0:50:03.520 or even just even now, to go back and just 0:50:03.560 --> 0:50:09.040 get back together. I loved the Talking Heads growing up. 0:50:09.160 --> 0:50:11.360 I just and I still love the talking Heads. I 0:50:11.360 --> 0:50:13.560 mean anytime Burning Down the House comes on, like the 0:50:13.719 --> 0:50:16.400 speaker's just going up. It's just one of those things 0:50:16.480 --> 0:50:19.160 I just I've always and to see them again would 0:50:19.160 --> 0:50:20.799 be really cool. And they're actually, I think all four 0:50:20.800 --> 0:50:23.040 of them still alive, so it would be a possibility. 0:50:23.120 --> 0:50:27.400 So yeah, I think from a sort of that genre, 0:50:27.680 --> 0:50:30.879 you know, that new wave time frame where things were 0:50:30.880 --> 0:50:33.400 sort of changing and going over. They they did a 0:50:33.440 --> 0:50:38.640 really cool job of straddling that punk new wave rock line. 0:50:38.640 --> 0:50:42.960 And David Byrne, I think is really an amazing performer. 0:50:43.040 --> 0:50:44.720 So yeah, I probably would go Talking Heads. 0:50:45.160 --> 0:50:48.000 They have some songs that there are a few songs 0:50:48.080 --> 0:50:53.560 where you can listen to it in at any setting. Yeah, 0:50:53.600 --> 0:50:56.239 that's true, And like you could be just chilling like 0:50:56.800 --> 0:51:00.920 on your couch night in you could you could be 0:51:01.120 --> 0:51:04.279 at a rager. You can put it on and everybody be. 0:51:04.320 --> 0:51:07.399 Like, yeah, you know another band that I really liked it. 0:51:07.520 --> 0:51:11.400 I think I think they do. They're very artist artisty 0:51:11.600 --> 0:51:14.719 is Counting Crows. I could listen to Counting Crows all 0:51:14.760 --> 0:51:16.600 the time, just sort of, you know, as a more 0:51:16.640 --> 0:51:20.040 mellow alternative. But you know, you don't hear a ton 0:51:20.160 --> 0:51:23.440 of ton about them. And obviously we've already had the 0:51:24.280 --> 0:51:27.680 huge dead Deadhead and Dave Matthews are my favorites, but 0:51:28.360 --> 0:51:30.360 I don't want to get them into the conversation of 0:51:30.440 --> 0:51:31.560 overrated underrated. 0:51:31.920 --> 0:51:35.120 I got a one last question. It's a theory that 0:51:35.200 --> 0:51:38.440 I've thought of a lot. I asked Jeff Ogilvy about 0:51:38.480 --> 0:51:41.840 this and he actually was like, I actually think about 0:51:41.840 --> 0:51:45.040 that too. Do you ever think about like the trends 0:51:45.080 --> 0:51:50.719 in architecture as music genres, like where Pete Dye was 0:51:50.800 --> 0:51:55.120 like this kind of music with his style of architecture, 0:51:55.160 --> 0:51:58.879 and the Golden Age was this, And like, yeah, I do. 0:51:59.040 --> 0:52:01.680 I actually do think there's you know, there's something to that. 0:52:01.719 --> 0:52:05.120 And I also think about architects and it obviously and 0:52:05.200 --> 0:52:08.279 the personalities of sort of okay, you know, Bill cor 0:52:08.360 --> 0:52:10.279 would be like James Taylor. He would just be the 0:52:10.320 --> 0:52:14.799 most mellow, relaxed but so good. I mean, so yeah, 0:52:15.120 --> 0:52:19.080 we definitely I give that some thought. And you know, 0:52:19.120 --> 0:52:21.000 when you're in the bulldozer and you're pushing dirt for 0:52:21.040 --> 0:52:23.319 a long period of time, there's all kinds of things 0:52:23.320 --> 0:52:26.160 that cross your mind, and that might be one of 0:52:26.200 --> 0:52:30.480 them that you know, and as we've talked about my 0:52:30.520 --> 0:52:34.000 appreciation for music and the involvement it has actually in 0:52:34.640 --> 0:52:40.439 our working My working environment is pretty pretty cool, all. 0:52:40.440 --> 0:52:43.640 Right, Gil, thanks so much for the time. We look 0:52:43.719 --> 0:52:49.440 forward to seeing your new designs and all that's not 0:52:49.680 --> 0:52:52.360 just going on now, but what's going on in the future. 0:52:52.600 --> 0:52:54.520 And thanks for coming on. 0:52:55.160 --> 0:52:59.120 I appreciate it. Thanks, I've really enjoyed it. Chures, you've 0:52:59.160 --> 0:53:01.400 been listening to the fried Egg podcast. 0:53:01.880 --> 0:53:03.400 We do the digging for you.