Speaker 1: Welcome back to another edition of the Frida Egg podcast.
Speaker 1: This is part two of our conversation with Gil Hands.
Speaker 1: If you miss part one, be sure to check it
Speaker 1: out an iTunes, stitcher, or on the website. If you
Speaker 1: enjoy the podcast, please leave us a review in the
Speaker 1: iTunes podcast center. This really helps us out and we
Speaker 1: really appreciate it. Without further ado, here's part two of
Speaker 1: the Gil Hans podcast. I miss the green, for example,
Speaker 1: I'm already upset when I find my ball in the bunker,
Speaker 1: I'm really upset. And when I find my ball in
Speaker 1: a egg.
Speaker 2: Friday egg, the dreaded Frida Egg, Frida Eg, Frida egg
Speaker 2: bride egg Lie, I'm about ready to run.
Speaker 1: Off of the What's something that you wish the regular
Speaker 1: golfer understood more about your job?
Speaker 2: I think that there's there's a lot of nuance and
Speaker 2: subtlety and thought that goes into you know, every almost
Speaker 2: there's many things that happen by accident, although sometimes good
Speaker 2: stuff happens by accident, but you you know, you keep
Speaker 2: it for a reason. So I think that there's there's
Speaker 2: a lot of thought that goes into every little bump
Speaker 2: and bounce on a golf course, most every contour that
Speaker 2: goes into it, and you know, myself included, most average
Speaker 2: golfers are just trying to get the ball airborne and
Speaker 2: just you know, not thinking about strategy or the different
Speaker 2: you know, the way things are impacting the game and
Speaker 2: sort of very quiet ways. And so I think that
Speaker 2: that's something that people look at our golf courses and
Speaker 2: think that sometimes there's just comes about by happenstance. But
Speaker 2: for the most part, everything is really well thought out
Speaker 2: and well planned and is hopefully having an impact on
Speaker 2: the way the game is played, or at least an
Speaker 2: impact on the thought process of how people approach it.
Speaker 1: Is there like a particular green or hole at one
Speaker 1: of your courses where you just worked on it for
Speaker 1: seemingly days that you just couldn't get right for a
Speaker 1: long time, and then you finally got it.
Speaker 2: I think what tends to happen is sometimes you get fooled.
Speaker 2: You know, at the end of the day, you're shaping something,
Speaker 2: and then you go and you survey it, and you
Speaker 2: check out the grades and make sure everything works and
Speaker 2: make sure everything's going where you expect it to go.
Speaker 2: And so I think more often than sort of working
Speaker 2: working working to get something. Sometimes you're working on it
Speaker 2: and then you survey it and you shoot it and
Speaker 2: you're like, oh my god, that's doing exactly the opposite
Speaker 2: of what I thought. And that can be an influence
Speaker 2: from surrounding slopes, or you know, you just don't judge
Speaker 2: the grade. You're trying to build a green that's going
Speaker 2: back towards the player, and the ground is all falling
Speaker 2: away and your eye is just deceived by the way
Speaker 2: the ground sits. So I think that there's more redoing
Speaker 2: or struggling or sort of more frequent edits based on
Speaker 2: the fact that you're I'm not seeing what I think
Speaker 2: is actually happening, and when that happens, it's kind of funny.
Speaker 2: Actually we get a good chuckle out of that. So
Speaker 2: it's that's more frequently the way it works. And because
Speaker 2: a lot of you know, we've been very fortunate recently
Speaker 2: to work on a lot of sandy sites and so
Speaker 2: we can refine the contours and greens all the way
Speaker 2: down into the very last second. Like if you're building
Speaker 2: a USGA green, once you build the cavity, you're pretty
Speaker 2: well stuck. I mean, you can play around with an
Speaker 2: inch or two here or there. But you can't just
Speaker 2: make six inch cuts or make a lot of big
Speaker 2: edits to the because then you're screwing up the profile
Speaker 2: of the green with the gravel blanket and the whole thing.
Speaker 2: So on sandy sites, we can shape something in with
Speaker 2: a dozer or an excavator and then put the sand
Speaker 2: in place. And but then we've got a lot more
Speaker 2: fine edits that can be made with the sand pro
Speaker 2: or that can be made with rakes and shovels. So
Speaker 2: I think that allows us to continually refined, hopefully improve.
Speaker 2: And sometimes that process goes in different directions than you
Speaker 2: ever thought it might go. And again that's hopefully the
Speaker 2: results that come from that are better than what you
Speaker 2: intended when you started out building it.
Speaker 1: So we're at Pinehurst and you just built, you just
Speaker 1: finished up the third course at stream Song. How's building
Speaker 1: a course at an ra established property different than building
Speaker 1: one at a new property.
Speaker 2: Well, you you have you have other courses that that
Speaker 2: you're responding to. Whether you're doing it purposely or not.
Speaker 2: You it's just you can't help but understand that there
Speaker 2: are other properties here that you're you're trying to make
Speaker 2: a golf course that is compatible with but you're also
Speaker 2: trying to make a golf course that, hopefully, quality wise,
Speaker 2: is at least equal to what already exists there. So
Speaker 2: as it relates to stream Song, it was interesting because
Speaker 2: both golf courses are by, you know, the modern guys
Speaker 2: that we respect the most. So you have Bill and
Speaker 2: Ben doing the Red course and Tom Doak doing the
Speaker 2: Blue course. So we were putting our work alongside, you know,
Speaker 2: the modern architects who we think do the best work.
Speaker 2: So there was a standard that was held up at
Speaker 2: that point in time that we wanted to respond to.
Speaker 2: There was a style that you know, we all sort
Speaker 2: of generally live in, that rugged, rough, rustic style, so
Speaker 2: that we knew that was going to be compatible. And
Speaker 2: then we looked at all, right, how do we differentiate it?
Speaker 2: And it was at stream Song, it was all about
Speaker 2: the site. Our site was bigger, broader, not nearly as
Speaker 2: dramatic as far as the landforms are concerned, and red
Speaker 2: and Blue are purposely co mingled and co designed to
Speaker 2: flow together, so they're a little bit more compact. So
Speaker 2: the reaction there was, okay, let's look at us from
Speaker 2: a scale perspective. Let's try and do something bigger and
Speaker 2: maybe a little bit bolder than those two golf courses.
Speaker 2: Here at Pinehurst, the reaction is to a completely different
Speaker 2: I mean, it's a historic golf course. It has been
Speaker 2: a standard for greatness in this country for decades, designed
Speaker 2: by one of the greatest architects of all time, and
Speaker 2: then restored by you know, the greatest architects of the
Speaker 2: modern era, Bill and Ben. So we're looking next door
Speaker 2: and we're literally a butt course number two. And you
Speaker 2: know a lot of people said, well, you're going to
Speaker 2: build greens like course number two, and we thought, no,
Speaker 2: that'd be the stupidest thing we could ever do, because
Speaker 2: the finest example of those greens already exists right next door.
Speaker 2: So what are we trying to do outdo course number two?
Speaker 2: So no, we you know, there are some elements of
Speaker 2: the greens on Course number two that might find their
Speaker 2: way into too our greens, But for the most part,
Speaker 2: we're trying to build a golf course that's compatible. And
Speaker 2: you know, I'd be lying if I didn't say that
Speaker 2: there's sort of competition. I mean, we all try to
Speaker 2: do our best work, and so we don't want to
Speaker 2: build the golf course that's that's considered to be the
Speaker 2: worst at any of the places we work. And you
Speaker 2: had a great fortune of being at a dinner last
Speaker 2: night where Bill Coor was speaking, and he said, you know,
Speaker 2: these resorts and these destination places, they really succeed only
Speaker 2: when the quality of golf is spread across the entire spectrum.
Speaker 2: You know, if Bannon had five golf courses and there
Speaker 2: were two of them that nobody wanted to play and
Speaker 2: three that everyone wanted to play, well, then that doesn't work.
Speaker 2: You want to have the five golf courses spread equally,
Speaker 2: and same thing as stream song. If you know, it's easy,
Speaker 2: and I think it's great that you know there are
Speaker 2: people who love each every you know, there's people who
Speaker 2: are big advocates for blue, there are people with big
Speaker 2: advocates for red, and similarly for black, and to be
Speaker 2: able to have those conversations, and you know as well
Speaker 2: as I do, when you have conversations about golf architecture,
Speaker 2: there's no literally, there's no rights or wrongs. There's no
Speaker 2: black and whites, but there's there's just all these shades
Speaker 2: of gray, and so people like them for all those
Speaker 2: different reasons. And so you know, I don't think it
Speaker 2: is ever our expectation that, of course we're going to
Speaker 2: build something that's going to outshine course number two. But
Speaker 2: we wanted to build a golf course that would make
Speaker 2: people who come to Pineurse Resorts say, hey, you got
Speaker 2: to play number two obviously, but now you really have
Speaker 2: to play number four also, And so it's been an interesting,
Speaker 2: interesting project. Bill and I joke an awful lot about
Speaker 2: how we just follow in their footsteps, and he's the
Speaker 2: trailblazer and pioneer, and he gets to live in the
Speaker 2: rough and rugged, you know, establishments, and by the time
Speaker 2: we show up, the hotels are done and everything's perfect,
Speaker 2: and we get to live in Donald Ross's house and
Speaker 2: we have a little bit of a back and forth
Speaker 2: banter on that. But anytime you get to work alongside
Speaker 2: those guys, and anytime you get to work at a
Speaker 2: place as historic as Pinehurst, I mean, how lucky are we?
Speaker 1: What are some of the biggest challenges that you faced
Speaker 1: with number four. It's of course that was originally designed
Speaker 1: by Ross for people that don't know, and then it's
Speaker 1: been worked on by Robert Trent Jones, Rhys Jones and
Speaker 1: Tom Fazzio.
Speaker 2: I think the biggest challenge we had, and what's been
Speaker 2: the most interesting thing from our perspective is that through
Speaker 2: all of those various iterations, the golf course became detached
Speaker 2: from the landscape. I mean, there was a lot of
Speaker 2: different shaping, there was a lot of different earth moving
Speaker 2: on the site, and Ross considered it and wrote about
Speaker 2: that it was probably the most dramatic of all the
Speaker 2: sites you had to work with here at the core
Speaker 2: of the resort, and it's got great topography and great interest.
Speaker 2: So our goal was to try to reconnect that landscape.
Speaker 2: Was to start put the ridges back where the ridges were,
Speaker 2: put the valleys back where they were, not just looking
Speaker 2: at tree line to tree line and reconnecting the landscape.
Speaker 2: So it was an interesting exercise. Normally, when when you're
Speaker 2: building a new golf course, you're trying to find the
Speaker 2: golf holes and you're trying to find the places in
Speaker 2: the landscape where they exist. With Course number four, with
Speaker 2: just a few exceptions, we were working in the same
Speaker 2: corridors of the golf course. Of the routing didn't change dramatically,
Speaker 2: but within those corridors, our goal was to reconnect the landscape,
Speaker 2: almost as if we just found it in its natural state,
Speaker 2: and then once we put the landscape back, then we
Speaker 2: all started talking about, Okay, where did the bunkers go,
Speaker 2: what's the strategy, where are you supposed to hit it?
Speaker 2: How does this whole thing fall into place? So it
Speaker 2: was kind of a backwards exercise of restoring the landscape
Speaker 2: before you even then start designing the golf holes. And
Speaker 2: it's been fun and challenging, and I think that I
Speaker 2: mean a lot of credit to Brent Vest and Brett
Speaker 2: Brennan and the guys that are sort of doing a
Speaker 2: lot of the heavy lifting on our projects and and
Speaker 2: a lot of the shoving and pushing around, and they
Speaker 2: I think they've really nailed it. They've done a great
Speaker 2: job with with restoring that landscape. And now we're all
Speaker 2: sort of the rest of the team is following behind,
Speaker 2: and I think we're making some some very interesting design decisions,
Speaker 2: some of them based on what Ross had done. We
Speaker 2: have his old the old aerial photographs from course number four,
Speaker 2: so we've taken some of the bunker patterns and some
Speaker 2: of the sort of grassing lines from that golf course.
Speaker 2: But at the end of the day, it'll it'll be
Speaker 2: one of our original designs and I mean we're we're
Speaker 2: really excited about how we think it's going to fit
Speaker 2: into the overall landscape parent Pinehurst.
Speaker 1: It's a cool site. Having walked around at the last
Speaker 1: couple of days, it's got some some movement, some dramatic
Speaker 1: you know holes, some it's it's a cool piece of topography.
Speaker 1: It's a lot different than number two. But thanks you know,
Speaker 1: you fly over, I mean you go from two and
Speaker 1: then the landscape stays consistent across, which is which is neat.
Speaker 2: Thank you.
Speaker 1: Another new design you have is a Hoopye match Club
Speaker 1: and it's a course that's built for match play, and
Speaker 1: I mean it's pretty neat that keeping score and talking
Speaker 1: about your score is frowned upon there. How is building
Speaker 1: a course for match play versus traditional stroke play.
Speaker 2: I think that the Jim and I really enjoyed that opportunity,
Speaker 2: you know, working with Mike Wallrath, the owner, he's just
Speaker 2: one of the greatest guys, and he loves golf. He's
Speaker 2: passionate about he's a good player. And so when he
Speaker 2: came to us and we talked about this piece of ground,
Speaker 2: which oddly enough, he was looking for a piece of
Speaker 2: ground in Georgia, and Jim and I had worked on
Speaker 2: this particular property back in two thousand and seven. We
Speaker 2: had looked at it with Davis Love and looking about
Speaker 2: building a golf course there, so we knew of the
Speaker 2: character and the quality of it. And now this is
Speaker 2: a completely different approach to how we tackled that landscape.
Speaker 2: But we introduced Michael to the land and he fell
Speaker 2: in love with it immediately, and so we one of
Speaker 2: those projects that's kind of come back to us, which
Speaker 2: we're delighted about. But when we were approached also about
Speaker 2: doing the match play component, Jim and I were excited
Speaker 2: about the thought of, hey, we can build holes, we
Speaker 2: can take a few more chances, we can build more
Speaker 2: heroic type setups where there's a lot of risk reward
Speaker 2: that if you take on the big challenge, you're going
Speaker 2: to get the big reward and if you play away
Speaker 2: from that, you're going to have to, you know, work
Speaker 2: to score. But the thought was, you know, nobody's writing
Speaker 2: nine or ten on their scorecard. It's just you've lost
Speaker 2: the hole. So why not you know, gamble with some
Speaker 2: pretty big stuff, because all right, you know, you just
Speaker 2: one down. And I think that that mentality was refreshing.
Speaker 2: It was liberating for us, because so often you're focused on, all, right,
Speaker 2: how what's the playability and what's ultimately the the score
Speaker 2: that somebody's going to put or how you're going to
Speaker 2: how do you design based on the notion of par
Speaker 2: And I know we all sort of in this circle
Speaker 2: of golf architecture of ficionados. You know, part is irrelevant
Speaker 2: to us, but it's not to ninety nine percent of
Speaker 2: the golfers out there. That's really what they measure themselves
Speaker 2: up against. And the carton pencil mentality is, unfortunately the reality.
Speaker 2: And so to be asked to design a golf course
Speaker 2: where the cardon pencil mentality is thrown out the window
Speaker 2: and as you said, frowned upon is I mean liberating
Speaker 2: is really the only word I can use, because I
Speaker 2: think it just allowed us a fresh perspective on that landscape.
Speaker 2: Now that landscape allowed us to build some dramatic golf
Speaker 2: holes and to have some really dramatic sandy features, utilizing
Speaker 2: some of the beautiful live oaks and the property, and
Speaker 2: then the variety of golf holes from along the lake
Speaker 2: at the start, which one of the nice things about
Speaker 2: working with Michael was, you know, the quintessential sort of
Speaker 2: an American golf course in southeastern American golf course would
Speaker 2: finish on the lake. You know, you'd have your par
Speaker 2: threes or in your par fours, and you know that's stuff.
Speaker 2: And with the beauty of that landscape, we really felt
Speaker 2: like that was the worst part of it. Now, it
Speaker 2: was a place we decided that would be the best
Speaker 2: place for the clubhouse because the beauty of it is fantastic.
Speaker 2: But we wanted to finish on the really cool, choppy
Speaker 2: rolling ground in the sand as opposed to finishing on
Speaker 2: the water. So we went to Michael with the routing
Speaker 2: the final decision. We said, hey, we understand it's a
Speaker 2: really nice visual resource, but we don't really value it
Speaker 2: that highly from a golf standpoint, So can we have
Speaker 2: whole number one where you're overlooking the water and then
Speaker 2: whole number two where you're actually playing it and then
Speaker 2: see you later. And he was like, yeah, that's a
Speaker 2: cool idea. I'm fine with that. So it was. It
Speaker 2: was good looking at from a routing standpoint. We had
Speaker 2: all these diverse landscapes. We had the you know, along
Speaker 2: the lake to start, and then we had kind of
Speaker 2: rolling down into the woods lower ground where we had
Speaker 2: to you know, actually as whole number four, as Jim
Speaker 2: refers to as sort of an architects hall. We had
Speaker 2: to make that hole to connect the dots, and then
Speaker 2: you emerge out of there on five and six, and
Speaker 2: then by time you hit seven you start to get
Speaker 2: into those great rolling ground and the live oaks, and
Speaker 2: then you know, by the time you get out on ten,
Speaker 2: you're out in the meadow. Then you're back into the
Speaker 2: live oaks and rolling around and finishing in that regard.
Speaker 2: So it was a wonderful landscape to be able to
Speaker 2: try to execute that thought process of building a match
Speaker 2: play course. And then because it's remote and because you
Speaker 2: know people are going to be staying on property with
Speaker 2: all right, well, if you're you know, maybe somewhere down
Speaker 2: the road, Michael might build another golf course. But for
Speaker 2: right now, you know, there's this eighteen hole golf course.
Speaker 2: What can we do within the property that might allow
Speaker 2: you to have a different option to play. You know,
Speaker 2: I'm fifty four years old. I'd love to walk and
Speaker 2: carry or have a caddy, but thirty six full holes
Speaker 2: by the end of the day, I'm done and I'd
Speaker 2: like to be able to enjoy having a libation and
Speaker 2: having some sitting around with the guys and having a
Speaker 2: good time without just feeling like I'm about to fall
Speaker 2: over a sleep in my soup. So we thought, well,
Speaker 2: what if we create another loop of golf holes that
Speaker 2: would be We've started referring to it as the Afternoon Round,
Speaker 2: and thought, well, the afternoon Round could be a much
Speaker 2: shorter golf course, much really a little bit more compact
Speaker 2: as far as walking is concerned. And so the concept became, well,
Speaker 2: what if we tack four holes on short holes into
Speaker 2: the routing and then do this combination of where you
Speaker 2: play the first hole, then you skip over to six,
Speaker 2: and then do you knock out? So a couple of
Speaker 2: big long part fives and some of the longer walks
Speaker 2: between holes, and then you play seven, eight, nine, ten,
Speaker 2: and then you jump into ABCD and then that loops
Speaker 2: you back in across and then you jump into whole eleven,
Speaker 2: but not playing it as a part five, playing as
Speaker 2: a short four anyway. The creativity involved in that the route,
Speaker 2: the final routing of the afternoon holes was Jim Wagner.
Speaker 2: I mean he came up with even the idea of
Speaker 2: crossing over one of the other holes that you've already played.
Speaker 2: And so now you've got a around six thousand yard
Speaker 2: golf course. It plays under seventy and you're just it's
Speaker 2: a fun alternative to get another eighteen holes in, but
Speaker 2: now feel like you're getting beat up. And then the
Speaker 2: four afternoon holes, there's a really short part five, a
Speaker 2: really short part four, and then two part three. So
Speaker 2: again it's a small it's a much smaller, tighter loop.
Speaker 2: And within all of that context is Mike Walrath has
Speaker 2: just you know, gave us the freedom and the ability
Speaker 2: to think outside the box, and he encouraged and welcomed
Speaker 2: that thinking, which matched his thinking about I'm going to
Speaker 2: build a you know, a club where we're going to
Speaker 2: embrace the spirit of match play and we're going to
Speaker 2: just enjoy that that component of the game. So it's
Speaker 2: one of the most special and interesting projects that we've
Speaker 2: ever been involved with, and I am excited for people
Speaker 2: to get a look at it.
Speaker 1: Something I noticed with stream song Black a Hoopie even
Speaker 1: yesterday walking around Pinehurst Fourth, like, is walkability something that
Speaker 1: you think about, like because those were some of the
Speaker 1: most walkable courses, like even compared to the other courses
Speaker 1: that stream song Black, I feel like you're fresher after
Speaker 1: around at Black than you are at you know, one
Speaker 1: of the other courses is do you think about that?
Speaker 2: We do, because I mean, we're big believers that walking
Speaker 2: is the way the game is supposed to be played.
Speaker 2: And then we would never begrudge somebody who physically needs
Speaker 2: a cart and that's the only way they can play golf.
Speaker 2: You know, that's great, go ahead and take a cart.
Speaker 2: I mean, we're big, big proponents of push carts. I
Speaker 2: think that you know, pull carts, whatever you want to
Speaker 2: call them. I think that that unfortunately, there's a stigma
Speaker 2: around that here in the United States, which you know,
Speaker 2: you go to the best clubs in Britain or in
Speaker 2: Australia and everybody's pulling their clubs around. I think anything
Speaker 2: you can do to get people to walk is that
Speaker 2: it's the essence of the game. And you know, golf
Speaker 2: courses have always been meant to be enjoyed at a
Speaker 2: walking pace. You know, Jim and I refer to it
Speaker 2: as golf at fifty five miles an hour. When you're
Speaker 2: in a cart, you're just blowing through the landscape. You're
Speaker 2: not in touch with it, You're not in contact with
Speaker 2: the ground, you're not feeling the undulations, you're not visiting
Speaker 2: with everybody in your group. You know, if you and
Speaker 2: I are playing in a cart, we're basically spending four hours,
Speaker 2: well hopefully it's only four hours, you know, together, you know,
Speaker 2: whereas the other two guys, we're just going to see
Speaker 2: them up on the green and then that's it, and
Speaker 2: that's the only time we're going to get to be
Speaker 2: with him. Whereas when you're walking, you're you're constantly changed
Speaker 2: depending on which direction your ball went, You're walking with
Speaker 2: a different person, and you're getting sort of to enjoy
Speaker 2: that experience much more so. It's in our minds. Walking
Speaker 2: gets you the feeling of being in nature. Being on
Speaker 2: the ground sets the right pace for the game of golf.
Speaker 2: So anything we can do within our designs to help
Speaker 2: keep that in the forefront. So we do. We put
Speaker 2: teas and greens in close proximity. We look at the
Speaker 2: opportunities that exist where not a lot of people are
Speaker 2: going to be playing the back tea, So maybe we'll
Speaker 2: sneak the back teas a little bit closer and then
Speaker 2: so you're just kind of that then makes the forward
Speaker 2: t s, you know, sort of walking in progression. You know,
Speaker 2: you're just sort of moving in those directions in that direction.
Speaker 2: So I think it's one of those things where we're
Speaker 2: we're cognizant of it. We're big believers that we want
Speaker 2: to push the envelope as much as we can to
Speaker 2: enable walking to be comfortable. And you know, I think
Speaker 2: one of the things we love so much about these
Speaker 2: great old classic golf courses. We love the features, we
Speaker 2: love the variety, we love the way that they sit
Speaker 2: in the landscape, but we also love that compact nature
Speaker 2: of just sort of green next tea, and there's just
Speaker 2: something that's right about that. And you know, unfortunately, a
Speaker 2: lot of what went wrong with golf architecture in the
Speaker 2: nineties and two thousands is just, you know, the golf
Speaker 2: courses weren't being built where golf was the primary focus.
Speaker 2: A lot of them were real estate driven, and that
Speaker 2: just lent to the cart mentality and not just couldn't
Speaker 2: physically walk the golf courses. There's so much separation between holes,
Speaker 2: and so I think what we're focused on, what Bill
Speaker 2: and Ben do, what Tom Doak does. I mean, we
Speaker 2: really are trying. We've been really fortunate to have these
Speaker 2: types of landscapes where we can build walking golf courses
Speaker 2: and owners that embrace that feel. But within within that,
Speaker 2: we feel very strongly that we want to push the
Speaker 2: envelope as close as we can to make the golf
Speaker 2: courses as compact as possible.
Speaker 1: We talked about par with regards to a hoopie. If
Speaker 1: you could remove par from one of your other courses,
Speaker 1: which one would it be?
Speaker 2: Probably the Olympic course, I think the Olympic course in Rio.
Speaker 2: You know, we purposely designed it as a par seventy
Speaker 2: one because we didn't want We thought that in a
Speaker 2: developing country or with the golf course is going to
Speaker 2: be on the world stage and a lot of sort
Speaker 2: of developing countries watching golf in the Olympics, that there
Speaker 2: was the opportunity to show that golf doesn't have to
Speaker 2: be seventy five hundred yards par seventy two, that there
Speaker 2: can be a differentiation in par and par seventy one
Speaker 2: is fine. So we built that golf course with a
Speaker 2: ton of half par holes, really just thinking that the
Speaker 2: flexibility that's afforded in that would would be fun to
Speaker 2: watch and fun to play. So I think if that
Speaker 2: golf course really just par was irrelevant and it was
Speaker 2: just go out there and play golf. And I really
Speaker 2: really wish that golf in the Olympics would have had
Speaker 2: a matchplay component to it would have been so much.
Speaker 2: I think from our standpoint, it would have been much
Speaker 2: more compelling and interesting, and that could have been a
Speaker 2: team competition, and you know, it was great. We were
Speaker 2: fortunate that we got to see Justin Rose and Hendrick
Speaker 2: Stintson battle down the final golf hole and make decisions
Speaker 2: on how they played that golf hole to win a
Speaker 2: gold medal, and so I think from that standpoint it
Speaker 2: was exciting and thrilling. But it would have been so
Speaker 2: cool to see people see them play match play on
Speaker 2: that golf course.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think if they did the way the ncaaas
Speaker 1: have it with like they do this stroke play and
Speaker 1: then they got eight teams in advance and they do
Speaker 1: match play, and it would be really cool. But I
Speaker 1: think that people always say, well, like fielding a team
Speaker 1: of four is a lot harder for a lot of countries,
Speaker 1: or five fielding a team of five, But I think
Speaker 1: that would lend itself to upsets too, so it would
Speaker 1: be kind of neat to see if somebody could take
Speaker 1: down America.
Speaker 2: I agree. And then the other thing is that you
Speaker 2: know all you need are too, I mean, you just
Speaker 2: need to to make make a team, and you know,
Speaker 2: you look at all the other sports and if a country,
Speaker 2: you know, there are a lot more American swimmers in
Speaker 2: other countries because they qualify, and if the more Americans qualify,
Speaker 2: are more Brits qualify, well, then that's because they've earned it,
Speaker 2: it's not because it was given to them. So if
Speaker 2: the Americans can feel two teams of two and you
Speaker 2: know Sweden can only field one team of two, well
Speaker 2: that's just because the way the ranking system is set up.
Speaker 2: So there were a lot of reasons for why they
Speaker 2: did what they did, and at the end of the day,
Speaker 2: it was very successful. So there's you know, you really
Speaker 2: it's hard to complain, but I think us purists would
Speaker 2: have liked to have seen things a little bit more creative.
Speaker 1: Building the cradle here at Pinehurst Short Course nine hole
Speaker 1: Part three. I guess what kind of different liberties and
Speaker 1: different things can you do when you're doing a short
Speaker 1: course versus a regulation course.
Speaker 2: Well, the thing about the Cradle was that everything about
Speaker 2: it was predicated on fun. I mean, we like to
Speaker 2: try and build golf courses that are fun to play,
Speaker 2: and you know, some people say we do a good
Speaker 2: job of that. Some people say we don't. There's some
Speaker 2: two difficults occasionally, but you know, we we think and
Speaker 2: we've read a lot about it. You know, I think
Speaker 2: it was Simpson and Simpson and Weather. It's book about
Speaker 2: a sense of humor and golf architecture, and I think that,
Speaker 2: you know, a lot of the earlier architects felt like
Speaker 2: that was important. Part of the personality of a golf
Speaker 2: course was that you wanted to have some humor in there.
Speaker 2: And so when we were tasked to try and figure
Speaker 2: out how to lay out a short course on the
Speaker 2: ground that they gave us, Jim and I looked at
Speaker 2: and just thought about fun. Let's just build fun holes.
Speaker 2: Let's try and build a variety of ways to play
Speaker 2: these golf holes, a variety of ways to approach them
Speaker 2: and attack them. Let's try and make them feel like
Speaker 2: they sit in the landscape quite nicely. There was no
Speaker 2: edict to build nine holes. It was just whatever fit.
Speaker 2: Jim and I both thought that if we could retain
Speaker 2: the two greens that were there. So the originally where
Speaker 2: the cradle sits was originally holes one on courses three
Speaker 2: and five, and so we kept the two greens just
Speaker 2: as sort of an homage to the work to the
Speaker 2: holes that were there. So that was always going to
Speaker 2: be part of the routing. So then it was just
Speaker 2: how do we tackle this side hill site and try
Speaker 2: and get a variety of lengths and angles et cetera,
Speaker 2: et cetera an uphill downhill. And so once that all
Speaker 2: fell into place, it became a focus on just fun,
Speaker 2: you know, and we we looked at how do you
Speaker 2: play the you know, punch bowl green. We we purposely
Speaker 2: put a flat spot above that green so people could
Speaker 2: sit and you know, ad arondick chairs and watch shots
Speaker 2: come into it and cheer and yell or whatever. So
Speaker 2: it was one of these things where again a little
Speaker 2: bit like a whoopie, where you just you weren't worried
Speaker 2: about the quote unquote shot values. You know, oh, is
Speaker 2: this green going to be receptive to a to a
Speaker 2: four hybrid or what's the potential range of shots people
Speaker 2: are going to hit into this green? And what angle.
Speaker 2: It was just like, Okay, people are going to drop
Speaker 2: a ball on this tea and they're going to hit
Speaker 2: They're going to figure out the best way to get
Speaker 2: onto the green. And for the most part the shots
Speaker 2: are under one hundred yards, so everybody should be able
Speaker 2: to tackle that. And I think one of the nicest
Speaker 2: compliments we got was from Rand Moore as set who
Speaker 2: you know, golf club atleast he played out there and
Speaker 2: he just loved He said, you know, there's you can
Speaker 2: see that every class of player can find, you know,
Speaker 2: a challenge level that's acceptable to their game. There's a
Speaker 2: lot you know, you can put you can literally put
Speaker 2: on every single hole if you wanted to, or there
Speaker 2: are whole locations there where a guy like yourself who's
Speaker 2: an accomplished players. You got to hit some shots. I
Speaker 2: mean you really, you can't just fake it. But if
Speaker 2: you're not worried about posting a score and you're just
Speaker 2: out there, I mean, Tracy and I have played at
Speaker 2: a number of times. We play in forty five minutes,
Speaker 2: we have a ball. I mean, it's just it's all
Speaker 2: about fun and that's that's I think something that's been
Speaker 2: missing from the game. A little bit. And I think
Speaker 2: if we can inject that into into the game and
Speaker 2: get people attracted to the game, or you know, just
Speaker 2: sort of say, hey, this is a there's a much
Speaker 2: more vibe that goes with this setting here as opposed
Speaker 2: to a lot of the sort of high stress levels
Speaker 2: that people associate with golf, especially when they're first coming
Speaker 2: to the game, then I think The Cradle will be
Speaker 2: be successful in that regard. And I mean it's and
Speaker 2: they gave us the front yard of the resort. I
Speaker 2: mean you walk right out of the clubhouse and it's
Speaker 2: just there, right there in your face. And for Pinehurst
Speaker 2: to recognize that, you know, this prime real estate should
Speaker 2: be dedicated to fun and just people out there having
Speaker 2: a good time, I think really sends a great message
Speaker 2: to the rest of the golf industry of where some
Speaker 2: of our priorities should be.
Speaker 1: It's funny. I played. I went around it a couple
Speaker 1: of times, and I played with this older gentleman one time,
Speaker 1: and I just was using a seven iron and a putter,
Speaker 1: and I could see him like looking into his bag
Speaker 1: and he's like, oh, dang, I forgot my because like
Speaker 1: he had like a nine iron through wedge and he
Speaker 1: didn't hit it very far, but you could tell like
Speaker 1: he saw me like running it off different stuff, and
Speaker 1: like he wanted to do it. And it's so interesting
Speaker 1: because it brings I think that these types of courses
Speaker 1: have the you know, ability to get people to use
Speaker 1: their imagination more on the golf course as opposed to
Speaker 1: the traditional aerial American golf.
Speaker 2: I agree. I mean, I think it's one of the
Speaker 2: things that we love to put into our designs and
Speaker 2: we love watching. You know, Augustus seems to be the
Speaker 2: one time of year where you actually get to see
Speaker 2: it on TV or the Open Championship. Is that, you know,
Speaker 2: when guys look in a different direction to get from
Speaker 2: A to B as opposed to the direct line, and
Speaker 2: I think that that adds so much to the fund
Speaker 2: quote and the fun factor as we say, so, I
Speaker 2: think that's great that he was able to see that.
Speaker 2: I mean, that's one of the nice things about the
Speaker 2: Cradle is when you walk past it or when you
Speaker 2: drive past it and you just see the smiles on
Speaker 2: the people's faces and you see grandparents out there with
Speaker 2: their grandkids. In a way, it's almost the most successful
Speaker 2: thing we've ever done. Because it has captured the imagination
Speaker 2: and it's it's really done. Is everything we had hoped
Speaker 2: it would do. It seems to be doing, and that's
Speaker 2: that's really gratifying or rewarding in itself.
Speaker 1: Say you were tasked with building a municipal course, what
Speaker 1: would you what would be the core principles?
Speaker 2: You know, I don't think the core principles would change
Speaker 2: from what we believe in. You know, I think we
Speaker 2: we try not to dumb down golf courses just because
Speaker 2: of you know, we maybe put like we did at
Speaker 2: the Olympic course, maybe more short grass quote unquote hazards, uh,
Speaker 2: you know, humps and bumps and hollows that you play
Speaker 2: through instead of bunkers. But we like to build wide
Speaker 2: golf courses, so I think it would stay wide. I
Speaker 2: think that the recovery options would still be there. I
Speaker 2: think angles would still be relevant. You know. It's it's
Speaker 2: not something that we go into each project and we say, hey,
Speaker 2: this is this is X. I mean we obviously the
Speaker 2: client is going to dictate some of that. I mean
Speaker 2: they're going to say this is you know what we've
Speaker 2: hired you. Let's and we have the conversation this is
Speaker 2: what we need to accomplish, this is what we want
Speaker 2: to do. So a municipality would have its requirements and
Speaker 2: we'd have to accommodate those types of things. But from
Speaker 2: a design standpoint, we would really I think focus on
Speaker 2: trying to still build a compelling and interesting test because
Speaker 2: I think people like it. I mean, it's not a
Speaker 2: class thing, like good design doesn't belong in a certain class.
Speaker 2: It's only it's not only for wealthy private clubs. It's
Speaker 2: for everybody. And you can see, you know, goat Hill
Speaker 2: in California, you know, Winter Park in Orlando. I mean,
Speaker 2: these are fun and interesting courses that are very playable,
Speaker 2: yet they're sound architecturally. They're not just sort of you know, okay,
Speaker 2: just beat it around and known attention. So I think
Speaker 2: we would always still try to focus on building interesting
Speaker 2: golf courses, no matter what the what the setting.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's I think there's a huge market there in
Speaker 1: the future of doing stuff that's good instead of just
Speaker 1: having like the monotonous uni that I grew up playing.
Speaker 1: So as far as golf courses around the country, you know,
Speaker 1: so you get ten rounds, you can take multiple at
Speaker 1: different courses, you can you could use all ten at
Speaker 1: one if you want it. What would be your what
Speaker 1: would be how would you split them? Boy?
Speaker 2: Oh boy, that's a good one. Hard, it really is.
Speaker 2: I mean you'd have to you'd have to say, or
Speaker 2: if I was going to play multiple rounds, it would
Speaker 2: probably be at National Golf Lins. I mean, that's like
Speaker 2: my aside from the old course. So you did ask
Speaker 2: me in the United States, so I.
Speaker 1: Mean, yeah, we'll keep it to the US. Yeah.
Speaker 2: National would probably be three rounds, I'd have to say,
Speaker 2: because it's just all about fun. I mean, I'm going
Speaker 2: an average golfer at best, so I don't need to
Speaker 2: get beat up. And you can get beat up at
Speaker 2: National if you're not paying attention. But you can also
Speaker 2: have the most fun golf experience you've ever had in
Speaker 2: your life. So I think that that would be we'll
Speaker 2: say three there. You've got a Fisher's Island shirt on,
Speaker 2: so that would at least be one or two there
Speaker 2: again just for the beauty. And the thing about Fishers
Speaker 2: is that you know, everybody talks about the views, but
Speaker 2: they're such great architecture there. I mean rain or the
Speaker 2: angles and the things, the landforms he used and the
Speaker 2: setup I mean.
Speaker 1: It is the spines and the greens. Yeah, I mean
Speaker 1: that's the stuff that like he had those bold external contours,
Speaker 1: but then when you look at the interiors of the greens,
Speaker 1: I think that's where he's unbeliev I mean, like the
Speaker 1: greens are just unbelievable. At every rainer you go to,
Speaker 1: you look at like what's inside, and then the unpinnable surfaces,
Speaker 1: Like I think that's something that people just don't understand.
Speaker 1: It's unpinnable surface.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and it's yeah, I mean, Fisher's is a special
Speaker 2: place and we've had the great fortune of being their
Speaker 2: consulting architects for twenty plus years, so it's been just
Speaker 2: this sort of uncovering, peeling back the layers of and it. Yeah,
Speaker 2: it's a wonderful, wonderful spot. So that would get me
Speaker 2: another one Cyprus Point you'd have to put in there,
Speaker 2: so that gets me to five La North would be another.
Speaker 2: Just again, I think you know, our experience is there,
Speaker 2: how much we've learned, and just how enjoyable, how playable
Speaker 2: it is Pine Valley again, just for the sheer perfection
Speaker 2: of eighteen holes routed through an amazing landscape and having
Speaker 2: the variety and the drama. I mean talking about eighteen
Speaker 2: unforgettable holes on a golf course, that's that would be
Speaker 2: another one. You know, fun fun, fun golf would be
Speaker 2: like Myopia Hunt Club. I mean, that's just a blast
Speaker 2: to be out in that setting. And now I'm like
Speaker 2: totally on the snob appeal here, right because I've got
Speaker 2: like all these top private clubs, and you know that
Speaker 2: the one golf course that we've built, I think that's
Speaker 2: nine so hopefully ten that every time I play it,
Speaker 2: I go, man, I wish I played here more as
Speaker 2: Boston Golf Club. There's just something about it. It's it's
Speaker 2: you know, I think it was early on in our career.
Speaker 2: We had the luxury of a lot of time. You know,
Speaker 2: the owner there was the owners were sort of, hey,
Speaker 2: let's take two years to build this. This is Boston.
Speaker 2: You know, the weather's not going to cooperate. Gave us
Speaker 2: a great piece of ground, and there's just, again, I think,
Speaker 2: an emphasis on what we believe in architecture, a lot
Speaker 2: of fun. There's a lot of with there's trouble. I mean,
Speaker 2: you can you can get yourself in places that you
Speaker 2: don't want to be, So there's a little bit of
Speaker 2: Pine Valley in it in that regard, But I think, yeah,
Speaker 2: if we had to pick, and I'm going to piss
Speaker 2: off all the other clubs we've ever built or designed,
Speaker 2: but you know, I think probably one round of Boston
Speaker 2: Golf Club would be fun.
Speaker 1: It's funny though, because like that answer could change, like
Speaker 1: three months later, you could play somewhere. That's like the
Speaker 1: beauty of golf course. You play somewhere. The more you
Speaker 1: play somewhere, even more you appreciate it. You might learn
Speaker 1: something about someplace, Like you're one hundred and fiftieth time
Speaker 1: around that you're like the light goes on, you know,
Speaker 1: and you're like, whoa.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I mean I'm sitting here now and I'm
Speaker 2: just in the back of my head, I'm going, well,
Speaker 2: you know, sand Hills, duh. I mean that was just
Speaker 2: you know, you just there's so many great golf courses
Speaker 2: that are out there that you know, obviously, we're all
Speaker 2: fortunate to anybody who's listening to this is interested in
Speaker 2: what we do and in this topic in particular, where
Speaker 2: there's just yeah, that ten ten, that's a tough one.
Speaker 2: You may have to peel one of nationals back and
Speaker 2: put sand hills in there.
Speaker 1: Say you get one hole in your backyard, it could
Speaker 1: be someone else's hole, it could be one of your holes.
Speaker 1: What would it be.
Speaker 2: Yeah, the one of my favorite holes to play in
Speaker 2: the world is number four at Fishers Island. So you know,
Speaker 2: the nice thing about that is the Atlantic Ocean would
Speaker 2: be in my backyard. So that would be a really
Speaker 2: cool uh you know obviously, yeah, exactly, that would be
Speaker 2: a pretty exciting place to sit. But yeah, for it
Speaker 2: at Fishers is so cool. I mean, it's just, you know,
Speaker 2: the combination of the alps in the punch bowl is
Speaker 2: really special and unique and different, and just the the
Speaker 2: t shot, you know, with the ocean lurking down the
Speaker 2: right hand side, but the further you know, it's one
Speaker 2: of those things you talk about. Everybody's overwhelmed by the
Speaker 2: beauty of that golf hole, but it really is a
Speaker 2: strategic hole. You play close to that edge and you
Speaker 2: actually get a look around the corner to the bowl. Now, granted,
Speaker 2: with the way people hit it now, it might be
Speaker 2: a little bit short for better players, but it's just
Speaker 2: put a hickory driver out exactly, Yeah, and just knock
Speaker 2: it around with that. But every time I walk over
Speaker 2: that hill and look down into that bowl, and the
Speaker 2: anticipation of where's my shot? Where is where did it find?
Speaker 2: I love that. I never ever get tired of that
Speaker 2: type of shot. I know some people really dislike blind shots,
Speaker 2: but in my mind that that's one of the greatest
Speaker 2: walks we talk about walking golf courses. I feel like
Speaker 2: people get robbed when they play that golf hole in
Speaker 2: a cart because they drive around the side and they
Speaker 2: never get that experience of coming up and over and
Speaker 2: walking down into that bowl, Because that, in my mind
Speaker 2: is just it's a glorious setting. But there's a combination
Speaker 2: of the beauty of the setting and with that anticipation
Speaker 2: of the result, And I just think that.
Speaker 1: That's fun stretch of three through Like I think twelve
Speaker 1: is like the most underrated hole out there, but like
Speaker 1: three through twelve, I mean, thirteenth, they're all good, but
Speaker 1: three through twelve is like one of the most exhilarating
Speaker 1: stretches of golf in the world.
Speaker 2: I agree, it really is. It's a special special place.
Speaker 1: Have you ever walked around on that. You know, most
Speaker 1: people don't know that there was originally thirty six holes
Speaker 1: routed there.
Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, I've never I've never tried to walk the
Speaker 2: other golf course. I know where it was intended to be,
Speaker 2: but did you try and walk all eighteens? You getting
Speaker 2: kicked off of somebody's proby.
Speaker 1: I just got the book and I was reading about
Speaker 1: it and Rainer said it was maybe more dramatic than
Speaker 1: the other one. You always want it. It's like I
Speaker 1: always wonder what would have happened had the Great Depression
Speaker 1: not happened. Sure that just that killed golf in America.
Speaker 1: We do a overrated underrated segment, So okay, you have
Speaker 1: to either pick overrated or underrated on what you know
Speaker 1: these different topics. You can add explanation or you can
Speaker 1: just say one or the other. Okay, center line bunkers underrated.
Speaker 2: I think that they're they're interesting. We had recently put
Speaker 2: them in on a hole on the PGA Tour at
Speaker 2: TPC Boston, and the it was met with a vitriol
Speaker 2: of which we have not been familiar on a lot
Speaker 2: of our work. So unfortunately they've been removed from that
Speaker 2: golf hole. But I think they ask a question that
Speaker 2: most golfers are not comfortable answering, because we are. It's
Speaker 2: been so ingrained in us that the the technically perfect
Speaker 2: golf shot is down the middle of a hole, and
Speaker 2: when all of a sudden the architecture requires the technically
Speaker 2: perfect golf shot not to be struck or not, you
Speaker 2: know that it's going to get into trouble. People lose
Speaker 2: their minds on that, and I just think that that
Speaker 2: from an architects perspective, is a very interesting thing to
Speaker 2: try and insert. Now, you don't want eighteen holes of it,
Speaker 2: but you definitely want to put it in once or
Speaker 2: twice in a round and make people decide left or right.
Speaker 2: And you know, it's interesting. I've talked to some professional
Speaker 2: golfers and the hate that bunker in the middle of
Speaker 2: the fairway and it's like, well, why, well, that's right
Speaker 2: where I want to hit it. Well, like on this hole,
Speaker 2: you don't you either want to hit it short or
Speaker 2: left or go right of it or over it. Isn't
Speaker 2: that more interesting now because that's right where I want
Speaker 2: to hit it, And they just can't get it out
Speaker 2: of their head that that's not where you want to
Speaker 2: be on a hole. And so I guess from that standpoint,
Speaker 2: I really liked them.
Speaker 1: Actually, it's funny. There's a guy ahead on the podcast,
Speaker 1: Scott Fawcett. He does course management for like pros and
Speaker 1: high level players and college teams, and he talked about
Speaker 1: the formulaic nature of most golf course architecture and how
Speaker 1: he could do his job without it even really like
Speaker 1: studying the course. And then I saw a comment he
Speaker 1: made about Trinity Forrest where he thought it was silly
Speaker 1: and he could he was having trouble, And it's so
Speaker 1: funny because it's like, well, it's not formulaic there forces
Speaker 1: you to make decisions, decisions change on the daily basis.
Speaker 1: It's like, now, like how can you not say, like,
Speaker 1: who cares about score when something requires decision and execution
Speaker 1: versus just execution.
Speaker 2: I couldn't agree with you more. I'm excited to watch
Speaker 2: Trinity Forest and see what the players. The expectation is
Speaker 2: that a lot of them won't like it or get it.
Speaker 2: And you know that's unfortunate because anytime somebody tries to
Speaker 2: do something interesting and ask these questions of players and
Speaker 2: have them make decisions and have the the proper way
Speaker 2: to play a golf course when it's when it requires
Speaker 2: thoughtful consideration and study and care and approach that's the
Speaker 2: highest that's the highest point of golf course architecture. And
Speaker 2: when that happens a lot of times in professional events,
Speaker 2: it's poo pooed or say, well that's not right because
Speaker 2: it's like you said, it's not formulaic, it doesn't fit
Speaker 2: the mold. And so I think that it's going to
Speaker 2: require I would almost guarantee that the champion there is
Speaker 2: going to be a thoughtful player. Is going to be
Speaker 2: a player obviously who can control their ball in the wind,
Speaker 2: but is somebody who can actually think their way around
Speaker 2: a golf course and that that, in my mind, should
Speaker 2: be applauded at a higher level than the players who
Speaker 2: are just going to say I don't get this. You
Speaker 2: know that. Unfortunately, the way the media is not just
Speaker 2: golf media, all media, they want the negative. They want
Speaker 2: that big impact splash. Instead of a guy who says, hey,
Speaker 2: this is great, it's really thoughtful, et cetera. They want
Speaker 2: the guys as well, this sucks. And so that's unfortunately
Speaker 2: probably what we're going to hear more of. But I'll
Speaker 2: be excited to watch that torm, more excited than probably
Speaker 2: almost any tournament this year.
Speaker 1: And I'm calling it the fourth Major.
Speaker 2: I love it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I hope, I hope it doesn't rain. That's like
Speaker 1: my I want. I just it's if it's firm. I
Speaker 1: think it'll be just fascinating to watch. I agree, So scale.
Speaker 2: Underrated. I think that scale is an important component of
Speaker 2: everything we do as golf course architects. I think that
Speaker 2: the uh, the appropriate scale, whether the human eye you know,
Speaker 2: sort of actively appreciates it. I think it's just the
Speaker 2: human eye and brain intuitively understands when something's in proper
Speaker 2: scale as opposed to out of scale. And I think
Speaker 2: golf courses that are out of scale or features that
Speaker 2: are out of scale just don't feel right. And I
Speaker 2: think that that's easy, you know. So I think that
Speaker 2: an understanding of scale is probably the most important thing
Speaker 2: I learned in landscape architecture. You know, a lot of
Speaker 2: what we studied there really had no relevancy to golf
Speaker 2: course design. But scale was one of the most important
Speaker 2: elements of sort of the arrangement of a landscape in
Speaker 2: scale and harmony with nature. I think every golf course,
Speaker 2: if you can accomplish those goals and make it feel
Speaker 2: like it's in harmony with its site and it's setting,
Speaker 2: and that the scale of it is appropriate from a
Speaker 2: presentation standpoint, those are the best golf courses.
Speaker 1: Philly cheese steaks.
Speaker 2: Real Philly cheese steaks are underrated outside of Philadelphia. I
Speaker 2: would never buy a cheese steak outside of Philadelphia. They're
Speaker 2: just horrible. There's just something. I don't know what it is.
Speaker 2: It's probably all the bad chemicals in the cheese whiz,
Speaker 2: et cetera that we put into them in Philadelphia. But
Speaker 2: they're in Philly, they're awesome.
Speaker 1: What's your spot in Philly?
Speaker 2: We just have a local place, you know. It's so
Speaker 2: we don't I don't go to patser Gino's, and you know,
Speaker 2: we'd rarely are in the city. You know, my days
Speaker 2: of drinking in excess until two am or over. So
Speaker 2: it's one of those things where I'm not going to
Speaker 2: show up at patser Gino's after being in South Street
Speaker 2: for you know, hours drinking beers. So it's just it's
Speaker 2: a it's a local spot for us that we go to.
Speaker 2: It's Anthony's in Malvern.
Speaker 1: I have Italian beefs are better than Philly cheese steaks,
Speaker 1: you know, a.
Speaker 2: Chicago absolutely all. I like the Chicago hot dogs was
Speaker 2: Vienna beef hot dogs. Those are awesome, and well the
Speaker 2: rolls with the little poppy seeds on fantastic, little sauer
Speaker 2: kraut and brown mustard perfect.
Speaker 1: Ah, not even having a real Chicago I know.
Speaker 2: I don't like all that fruity, relishy stuff and onions.
Speaker 1: And I don't either. I don't eat Chicago dogs, so
Speaker 1: I'll probably get a lot of hate mail from that.
Speaker 1: But what about desert golf.
Speaker 2: I don't really even think about desert golf all that much.
Speaker 2: I think there was a time where it was overrated
Speaker 2: because it was a novelty. It was sort of okay.
Speaker 2: You know, there's a time in the eighties and nineties
Speaker 2: where the dramatic sort of difference between green grass and
Speaker 2: desert landscape was to be promoted and sort of highly
Speaker 2: thought of as a new Hey, look at this is
Speaker 2: the new frontier. You know. Obviously people are moving to
Speaker 2: this area and now we can irrigate and build golf
Speaker 2: courses in it. I think if good architects build golf
Speaker 2: courses in those settings, like you know, Bill and Ben
Speaker 2: have done a few golf courses down there. I think
Speaker 2: Tom Weiskoff and the TPC Scottsdale is really thoughtful architecture
Speaker 2: and well laid out. So I mean, those I think
Speaker 2: are great golf are fantastic golf courses in a desert setting,
Speaker 2: but as the whole, the whole setting of what I've
Speaker 2: seen of desert golf is probably overrated.
Speaker 1: What's the last one? Who's the most underrated band? And
Speaker 1: who's the most overrated band?
Speaker 2: Wow?
Speaker 1: Wow, wow.
Speaker 2: Overrated. I've never been a fan of the Who. I
Speaker 2: just you know, I like LEDs, I mean of that
Speaker 2: sort of genre. I really enjoyed led Zeppelin and The Stones,
Speaker 2: but the Who is kind of I can I can
Speaker 2: give her. You know. One of the guys I played
Speaker 2: golf with he would play the Who Live It leads
Speaker 2: over and over again on when we were playing it.
Speaker 2: I think maybe that just totally put me off of them,
Speaker 2: So I'd say they're probably highly probably be my overrated band. Underrated.
Speaker 2: So I guess the answer to that question would would
Speaker 2: come if I could see any band sort of back
Speaker 2: together and play and you know, in their prime, yeah,
Speaker 2: or even just even now, to go back and just
Speaker 2: get back together. I loved the Talking Heads growing up.
Speaker 2: I just and I still love the talking Heads. I
Speaker 2: mean anytime Burning Down the House comes on, like the
Speaker 2: speaker's just going up. It's just one of those things
Speaker 2: I just I've always and to see them again would
Speaker 2: be really cool. And they're actually, I think all four
Speaker 2: of them still alive, so it would be a possibility.
Speaker 2: So yeah, I think from a sort of that genre,
Speaker 2: you know, that new wave time frame where things were
Speaker 2: sort of changing and going over. They they did a
Speaker 2: really cool job of straddling that punk new wave rock line.
Speaker 2: And David Byrne, I think is really an amazing performer.
Speaker 2: So yeah, I probably would go Talking Heads.
Speaker 1: They have some songs that there are a few songs
Speaker 1: where you can listen to it in at any setting. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's true, And like you could be just chilling like
Speaker 1: on your couch night in you could you could be
Speaker 1: at a rager. You can put it on and everybody be.
Speaker 2: Like, yeah, you know another band that I really liked it.
Speaker 2: I think I think they do. They're very artist artisty
Speaker 2: is Counting Crows. I could listen to Counting Crows all
Speaker 2: the time, just sort of, you know, as a more
Speaker 2: mellow alternative. But you know, you don't hear a ton
Speaker 2: of ton about them. And obviously we've already had the
Speaker 2: huge dead Deadhead and Dave Matthews are my favorites, but
Speaker 2: I don't want to get them into the conversation of
Speaker 2: overrated underrated.
Speaker 1: I got a one last question. It's a theory that
Speaker 1: I've thought of a lot. I asked Jeff Ogilvy about
Speaker 1: this and he actually was like, I actually think about
Speaker 1: that too. Do you ever think about like the trends
Speaker 1: in architecture as music genres, like where Pete Dye was
Speaker 1: like this kind of music with his style of architecture,
Speaker 1: and the Golden Age was this, And like, yeah, I do.
Speaker 2: I actually do think there's you know, there's something to that.
Speaker 2: And I also think about architects and it obviously and
Speaker 2: the personalities of sort of okay, you know, Bill cor
Speaker 2: would be like James Taylor. He would just be the
Speaker 2: most mellow, relaxed but so good. I mean, so yeah,
Speaker 2: we definitely I give that some thought. And you know,
Speaker 2: when you're in the bulldozer and you're pushing dirt for
Speaker 2: a long period of time, there's all kinds of things
Speaker 2: that cross your mind, and that might be one of
Speaker 2: them that you know, and as we've talked about my
Speaker 2: appreciation for music and the involvement it has actually in
Speaker 2: our working My working environment is pretty pretty cool, all.
Speaker 1: Right, Gil, thanks so much for the time. We look
Speaker 1: forward to seeing your new designs and all that's not
Speaker 1: just going on now, but what's going on in the future.
Speaker 1: And thanks for coming on.
Speaker 2: I appreciate it. Thanks, I've really enjoyed it. Chures, you've
Speaker 2: been listening to the fried Egg podcast.
Speaker 1: We do the digging for you.