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Speaker 1: Welcome back to another edition of the Frida Egg podcast.

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Speaker 1: This is part two of our conversation with Gil Hands.

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Speaker 1: If you miss part one, be sure to check it

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Speaker 1: out an iTunes, stitcher, or on the website. If you

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Speaker 1: enjoy the podcast, please leave us a review in the

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Speaker 1: iTunes podcast center. This really helps us out and we

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Speaker 1: really appreciate it. Without further ado, here's part two of

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Speaker 1: the Gil Hans podcast. I miss the green, for example,

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Speaker 1: I'm already upset when I find my ball in the bunker,

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Speaker 1: I'm really upset. And when I find my ball in

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Speaker 1: a egg.

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Speaker 2: Friday egg, the dreaded Frida Egg, Frida Eg, Frida egg

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Speaker 2: bride egg Lie, I'm about ready to run.

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Speaker 1: Off of the What's something that you wish the regular

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Speaker 1: golfer understood more about your job?

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Speaker 2: I think that there's there's a lot of nuance and

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Speaker 2: subtlety and thought that goes into you know, every almost

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Speaker 2: there's many things that happen by accident, although sometimes good

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Speaker 2: stuff happens by accident, but you you know, you keep

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Speaker 2: it for a reason. So I think that there's there's

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Speaker 2: a lot of thought that goes into every little bump

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Speaker 2: and bounce on a golf course, most every contour that

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Speaker 2: goes into it, and you know, myself included, most average

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Speaker 2: golfers are just trying to get the ball airborne and

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Speaker 2: just you know, not thinking about strategy or the different

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Speaker 2: you know, the way things are impacting the game and

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Speaker 2: sort of very quiet ways. And so I think that

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Speaker 2: that's something that people look at our golf courses and

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Speaker 2: think that sometimes there's just comes about by happenstance. But

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Speaker 2: for the most part, everything is really well thought out

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Speaker 2: and well planned and is hopefully having an impact on

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Speaker 2: the way the game is played, or at least an

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Speaker 2: impact on the thought process of how people approach it.

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Speaker 1: Is there like a particular green or hole at one

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Speaker 1: of your courses where you just worked on it for

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Speaker 1: seemingly days that you just couldn't get right for a

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Speaker 1: long time, and then you finally got it.

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Speaker 2: I think what tends to happen is sometimes you get fooled.

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Speaker 2: You know, at the end of the day, you're shaping something,

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Speaker 2: and then you go and you survey it, and you

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Speaker 2: check out the grades and make sure everything works and

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Speaker 2: make sure everything's going where you expect it to go.

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Speaker 2: And so I think more often than sort of working

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Speaker 2: working working to get something. Sometimes you're working on it

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Speaker 2: and then you survey it and you shoot it and

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Speaker 2: you're like, oh my god, that's doing exactly the opposite

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Speaker 2: of what I thought. And that can be an influence

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Speaker 2: from surrounding slopes, or you know, you just don't judge

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Speaker 2: the grade. You're trying to build a green that's going

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Speaker 2: back towards the player, and the ground is all falling

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Speaker 2: away and your eye is just deceived by the way

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Speaker 2: the ground sits. So I think that there's more redoing

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Speaker 2: or struggling or sort of more frequent edits based on

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Speaker 2: the fact that you're I'm not seeing what I think

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Speaker 2: is actually happening, and when that happens, it's kind of funny.

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Speaker 2: Actually we get a good chuckle out of that. So

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Speaker 2: it's that's more frequently the way it works. And because

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Speaker 2: a lot of you know, we've been very fortunate recently

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Speaker 2: to work on a lot of sandy sites and so

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Speaker 2: we can refine the contours and greens all the way

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Speaker 2: down into the very last second. Like if you're building

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Speaker 2: a USGA green, once you build the cavity, you're pretty

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Speaker 2: well stuck. I mean, you can play around with an

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Speaker 2: inch or two here or there. But you can't just

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Speaker 2: make six inch cuts or make a lot of big

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Speaker 2: edits to the because then you're screwing up the profile

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Speaker 2: of the green with the gravel blanket and the whole thing.

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Speaker 2: So on sandy sites, we can shape something in with

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Speaker 2: a dozer or an excavator and then put the sand

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Speaker 2: in place. And but then we've got a lot more

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Speaker 2: fine edits that can be made with the sand pro

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Speaker 2: or that can be made with rakes and shovels. So

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Speaker 2: I think that allows us to continually refined, hopefully improve.

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Speaker 2: And sometimes that process goes in different directions than you

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Speaker 2: ever thought it might go. And again that's hopefully the

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Speaker 2: results that come from that are better than what you

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Speaker 2: intended when you started out building it.

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Speaker 1: So we're at Pinehurst and you just built, you just

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Speaker 1: finished up the third course at stream Song. How's building

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Speaker 1: a course at an ra established property different than building

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Speaker 1: one at a new property.

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Speaker 2: Well, you you have you have other courses that that

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Speaker 2: you're responding to. Whether you're doing it purposely or not.

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Speaker 2: You it's just you can't help but understand that there

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Speaker 2: are other properties here that you're you're trying to make

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Speaker 2: a golf course that is compatible with but you're also

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Speaker 2: trying to make a golf course that, hopefully, quality wise,

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Speaker 2: is at least equal to what already exists there. So

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Speaker 2: as it relates to stream Song, it was interesting because

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Speaker 2: both golf courses are by, you know, the modern guys

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Speaker 2: that we respect the most. So you have Bill and

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Speaker 2: Ben doing the Red course and Tom Doak doing the

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Speaker 2: Blue course. So we were putting our work alongside, you know,

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Speaker 2: the modern architects who we think do the best work.

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Speaker 2: So there was a standard that was held up at

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Speaker 2: that point in time that we wanted to respond to.

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Speaker 2: There was a style that you know, we all sort

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Speaker 2: of generally live in, that rugged, rough, rustic style, so

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Speaker 2: that we knew that was going to be compatible. And

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Speaker 2: then we looked at all, right, how do we differentiate it?

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Speaker 2: And it was at stream Song, it was all about

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Speaker 2: the site. Our site was bigger, broader, not nearly as

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Speaker 2: dramatic as far as the landforms are concerned, and red

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Speaker 2: and Blue are purposely co mingled and co designed to

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Speaker 2: flow together, so they're a little bit more compact. So

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Speaker 2: the reaction there was, okay, let's look at us from

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Speaker 2: a scale perspective. Let's try and do something bigger and

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Speaker 2: maybe a little bit bolder than those two golf courses.

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Speaker 2: Here at Pinehurst, the reaction is to a completely different

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Speaker 2: I mean, it's a historic golf course. It has been

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Speaker 2: a standard for greatness in this country for decades, designed

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Speaker 2: by one of the greatest architects of all time, and

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Speaker 2: then restored by you know, the greatest architects of the

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Speaker 2: modern era, Bill and Ben. So we're looking next door

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Speaker 2: and we're literally a butt course number two. And you

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Speaker 2: know a lot of people said, well, you're going to

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Speaker 2: build greens like course number two, and we thought, no,

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Speaker 2: that'd be the stupidest thing we could ever do, because

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Speaker 2: the finest example of those greens already exists right next door.

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Speaker 2: So what are we trying to do outdo course number two?

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Speaker 2: So no, we you know, there are some elements of

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Speaker 2: the greens on Course number two that might find their

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Speaker 2: way into too our greens, But for the most part,

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Speaker 2: we're trying to build a golf course that's compatible. And

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Speaker 2: you know, I'd be lying if I didn't say that

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Speaker 2: there's sort of competition. I mean, we all try to

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Speaker 2: do our best work, and so we don't want to

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Speaker 2: build the golf course that's that's considered to be the

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Speaker 2: worst at any of the places we work. And you

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Speaker 2: had a great fortune of being at a dinner last

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Speaker 2: night where Bill Coor was speaking, and he said, you know,

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Speaker 2: these resorts and these destination places, they really succeed only

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Speaker 2: when the quality of golf is spread across the entire spectrum.

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Speaker 2: You know, if Bannon had five golf courses and there

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Speaker 2: were two of them that nobody wanted to play and

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Speaker 2: three that everyone wanted to play, well, then that doesn't work.

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Speaker 2: You want to have the five golf courses spread equally,

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Speaker 2: and same thing as stream song. If you know, it's easy,

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Speaker 2: and I think it's great that you know there are

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Speaker 2: people who love each every you know, there's people who

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Speaker 2: are big advocates for blue, there are people with big

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Speaker 2: advocates for red, and similarly for black, and to be

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Speaker 2: able to have those conversations, and you know as well

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Speaker 2: as I do, when you have conversations about golf architecture,

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Speaker 2: there's no literally, there's no rights or wrongs. There's no

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Speaker 2: black and whites, but there's there's just all these shades

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Speaker 2: of gray, and so people like them for all those

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Speaker 2: different reasons. And so you know, I don't think it

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Speaker 2: is ever our expectation that, of course we're going to

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Speaker 2: build something that's going to outshine course number two. But

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Speaker 2: we wanted to build a golf course that would make

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Speaker 2: people who come to Pineurse Resorts say, hey, you got

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Speaker 2: to play number two obviously, but now you really have

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Speaker 2: to play number four also, And so it's been an interesting,

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Speaker 2: interesting project. Bill and I joke an awful lot about

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Speaker 2: how we just follow in their footsteps, and he's the

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Speaker 2: trailblazer and pioneer, and he gets to live in the

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Speaker 2: rough and rugged, you know, establishments, and by the time

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Speaker 2: we show up, the hotels are done and everything's perfect,

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Speaker 2: and we get to live in Donald Ross's house and

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Speaker 2: we have a little bit of a back and forth

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Speaker 2: banter on that. But anytime you get to work alongside

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Speaker 2: those guys, and anytime you get to work at a

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Speaker 2: place as historic as Pinehurst, I mean, how lucky are we?

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Speaker 1: What are some of the biggest challenges that you faced

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Speaker 1: with number four. It's of course that was originally designed

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Speaker 1: by Ross for people that don't know, and then it's

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Speaker 1: been worked on by Robert Trent Jones, Rhys Jones and

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Speaker 1: Tom Fazzio.

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Speaker 2: I think the biggest challenge we had, and what's been

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Speaker 2: the most interesting thing from our perspective is that through

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Speaker 2: all of those various iterations, the golf course became detached

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Speaker 2: from the landscape. I mean, there was a lot of

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Speaker 2: different shaping, there was a lot of different earth moving

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Speaker 2: on the site, and Ross considered it and wrote about

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Speaker 2: that it was probably the most dramatic of all the

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Speaker 2: sites you had to work with here at the core

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Speaker 2: of the resort, and it's got great topography and great interest.

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Speaker 2: So our goal was to try to reconnect that landscape.

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Speaker 2: Was to start put the ridges back where the ridges were,

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Speaker 2: put the valleys back where they were, not just looking

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Speaker 2: at tree line to tree line and reconnecting the landscape.

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Speaker 2: So it was an interesting exercise. Normally, when when you're

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Speaker 2: building a new golf course, you're trying to find the

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Speaker 2: golf holes and you're trying to find the places in

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Speaker 2: the landscape where they exist. With Course number four, with

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Speaker 2: just a few exceptions, we were working in the same

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Speaker 2: corridors of the golf course. Of the routing didn't change dramatically,

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Speaker 2: but within those corridors, our goal was to reconnect the landscape,

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Speaker 2: almost as if we just found it in its natural state,

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Speaker 2: and then once we put the landscape back, then we

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Speaker 2: all started talking about, Okay, where did the bunkers go,

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Speaker 2: what's the strategy, where are you supposed to hit it?

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Speaker 2: How does this whole thing fall into place? So it

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Speaker 2: was kind of a backwards exercise of restoring the landscape

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Speaker 2: before you even then start designing the golf holes. And

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Speaker 2: it's been fun and challenging, and I think that I

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Speaker 2: mean a lot of credit to Brent Vest and Brett

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Speaker 2: Brennan and the guys that are sort of doing a

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Speaker 2: lot of the heavy lifting on our projects and and

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Speaker 2: a lot of the shoving and pushing around, and they

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Speaker 2: I think they've really nailed it. They've done a great

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Speaker 2: job with with restoring that landscape. And now we're all

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Speaker 2: sort of the rest of the team is following behind,

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Speaker 2: and I think we're making some some very interesting design decisions,

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Speaker 2: some of them based on what Ross had done. We

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Speaker 2: have his old the old aerial photographs from course number four,

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Speaker 2: so we've taken some of the bunker patterns and some

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Speaker 2: of the sort of grassing lines from that golf course.

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Speaker 2: But at the end of the day, it'll it'll be

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Speaker 2: one of our original designs and I mean we're we're

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Speaker 2: really excited about how we think it's going to fit

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Speaker 2: into the overall landscape parent Pinehurst.

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Speaker 1: It's a cool site. Having walked around at the last

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Speaker 1: couple of days, it's got some some movement, some dramatic

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Speaker 1: you know holes, some it's it's a cool piece of topography.

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Speaker 1: It's a lot different than number two. But thanks you know,

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Speaker 1: you fly over, I mean you go from two and

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Speaker 1: then the landscape stays consistent across, which is which is neat.

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Speaker 2: Thank you.

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Speaker 1: Another new design you have is a Hoopye match Club

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Speaker 1: and it's a course that's built for match play, and

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Speaker 1: I mean it's pretty neat that keeping score and talking

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Speaker 1: about your score is frowned upon there. How is building

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Speaker 1: a course for match play versus traditional stroke play.

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Speaker 2: I think that the Jim and I really enjoyed that opportunity,

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Speaker 2: you know, working with Mike Wallrath, the owner, he's just

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Speaker 2: one of the greatest guys, and he loves golf. He's

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Speaker 2: passionate about he's a good player. And so when he

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Speaker 2: came to us and we talked about this piece of ground,

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Speaker 2: which oddly enough, he was looking for a piece of

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Speaker 2: ground in Georgia, and Jim and I had worked on

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Speaker 2: this particular property back in two thousand and seven. We

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Speaker 2: had looked at it with Davis Love and looking about

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Speaker 2: building a golf course there, so we knew of the

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Speaker 2: character and the quality of it. And now this is

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Speaker 2: a completely different approach to how we tackled that landscape.

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Speaker 2: But we introduced Michael to the land and he fell

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Speaker 2: in love with it immediately, and so we one of

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Speaker 2: those projects that's kind of come back to us, which

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Speaker 2: we're delighted about. But when we were approached also about

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Speaker 2: doing the match play component, Jim and I were excited

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Speaker 2: about the thought of, hey, we can build holes, we

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Speaker 2: can take a few more chances, we can build more

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Speaker 2: heroic type setups where there's a lot of risk reward

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Speaker 2: that if you take on the big challenge, you're going

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Speaker 2: to get the big reward and if you play away

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Speaker 2: from that, you're going to have to, you know, work

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Speaker 2: to score. But the thought was, you know, nobody's writing

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Speaker 2: nine or ten on their scorecard. It's just you've lost

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Speaker 2: the hole. So why not you know, gamble with some

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Speaker 2: pretty big stuff, because all right, you know, you just

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Speaker 2: one down. And I think that that mentality was refreshing.

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Speaker 2: It was liberating for us, because so often you're focused on, all, right,

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Speaker 2: how what's the playability and what's ultimately the the score

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Speaker 2: that somebody's going to put or how you're going to

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Speaker 2: how do you design based on the notion of par

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Speaker 2: And I know we all sort of in this circle

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Speaker 2: of golf architecture of ficionados. You know, part is irrelevant

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Speaker 2: to us, but it's not to ninety nine percent of

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Speaker 2: the golfers out there. That's really what they measure themselves

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Speaker 2: up against. And the carton pencil mentality is, unfortunately the reality.

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Speaker 2: And so to be asked to design a golf course

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Speaker 2: where the cardon pencil mentality is thrown out the window

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Speaker 2: and as you said, frowned upon is I mean liberating

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Speaker 2: is really the only word I can use, because I

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Speaker 2: think it just allowed us a fresh perspective on that landscape.

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Speaker 2: Now that landscape allowed us to build some dramatic golf

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Speaker 2: holes and to have some really dramatic sandy features, utilizing

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Speaker 2: some of the beautiful live oaks and the property, and

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Speaker 2: then the variety of golf holes from along the lake

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Speaker 2: at the start, which one of the nice things about

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Speaker 2: working with Michael was, you know, the quintessential sort of

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Speaker 2: an American golf course in southeastern American golf course would

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Speaker 2: finish on the lake. You know, you'd have your par

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Speaker 2: threes or in your par fours, and you know that's stuff.

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Speaker 2: And with the beauty of that landscape, we really felt

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Speaker 2: like that was the worst part of it. Now, it

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Speaker 2: was a place we decided that would be the best

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Speaker 2: place for the clubhouse because the beauty of it is fantastic.

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Speaker 2: But we wanted to finish on the really cool, choppy

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Speaker 2: rolling ground in the sand as opposed to finishing on

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Speaker 2: the water. So we went to Michael with the routing

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Speaker 2: the final decision. We said, hey, we understand it's a

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Speaker 2: really nice visual resource, but we don't really value it

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Speaker 2: that highly from a golf standpoint, So can we have

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Speaker 2: whole number one where you're overlooking the water and then

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Speaker 2: whole number two where you're actually playing it and then

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Speaker 2: see you later. And he was like, yeah, that's a

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Speaker 2: cool idea. I'm fine with that. So it was. It

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Speaker 2: was good looking at from a routing standpoint. We had

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Speaker 2: all these diverse landscapes. We had the you know, along

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Speaker 2: the lake to start, and then we had kind of

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Speaker 2: rolling down into the woods lower ground where we had

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Speaker 2: to you know, actually as whole number four, as Jim

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Speaker 2: refers to as sort of an architects hall. We had

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Speaker 2: to make that hole to connect the dots, and then

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Speaker 2: you emerge out of there on five and six, and

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Speaker 2: then by time you hit seven you start to get

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Speaker 2: into those great rolling ground and the live oaks, and

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Speaker 2: then you know, by the time you get out on ten,

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Speaker 2: you're out in the meadow. Then you're back into the

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Speaker 2: live oaks and rolling around and finishing in that regard.

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Speaker 2: So it was a wonderful landscape to be able to

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Speaker 2: try to execute that thought process of building a match

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Speaker 2: play course. And then because it's remote and because you

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Speaker 2: know people are going to be staying on property with

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Speaker 2: all right, well, if you're you know, maybe somewhere down

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Speaker 2: the road, Michael might build another golf course. But for

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Speaker 2: right now, you know, there's this eighteen hole golf course.

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Speaker 2: What can we do within the property that might allow

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Speaker 2: you to have a different option to play. You know,

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Speaker 2: I'm fifty four years old. I'd love to walk and

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Speaker 2: carry or have a caddy, but thirty six full holes

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Speaker 2: by the end of the day, I'm done and I'd

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Speaker 2: like to be able to enjoy having a libation and

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Speaker 2: having some sitting around with the guys and having a

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Speaker 2: good time without just feeling like I'm about to fall

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Speaker 2: over a sleep in my soup. So we thought, well,

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Speaker 2: what if we create another loop of golf holes that

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Speaker 2: would be We've started referring to it as the Afternoon Round,

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Speaker 2: and thought, well, the afternoon Round could be a much

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Speaker 2: shorter golf course, much really a little bit more compact

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Speaker 2: as far as walking is concerned. And so the concept became, well,

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Speaker 2: what if we tack four holes on short holes into

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Speaker 2: the routing and then do this combination of where you

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Speaker 2: play the first hole, then you skip over to six,

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Speaker 2: and then do you knock out? So a couple of

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Speaker 2: big long part fives and some of the longer walks

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Speaker 2: between holes, and then you play seven, eight, nine, ten,

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Speaker 2: and then you jump into ABCD and then that loops

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Speaker 2: you back in across and then you jump into whole eleven,

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Speaker 2: but not playing it as a part five, playing as

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Speaker 2: a short four anyway. The creativity involved in that the route,

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Speaker 2: the final routing of the afternoon holes was Jim Wagner.

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Speaker 2: I mean he came up with even the idea of

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Speaker 2: crossing over one of the other holes that you've already played.

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Speaker 2: And so now you've got a around six thousand yard

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Speaker 2: golf course. It plays under seventy and you're just it's

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Speaker 2: a fun alternative to get another eighteen holes in, but

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Speaker 2: now feel like you're getting beat up. And then the

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Speaker 2: four afternoon holes, there's a really short part five, a

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Speaker 2: really short part four, and then two part three. So

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Speaker 2: again it's a small it's a much smaller, tighter loop.

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Speaker 2: And within all of that context is Mike Walrath has

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Speaker 2: just you know, gave us the freedom and the ability

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Speaker 2: to think outside the box, and he encouraged and welcomed

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Speaker 2: that thinking, which matched his thinking about I'm going to

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Speaker 2: build a you know, a club where we're going to

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Speaker 2: embrace the spirit of match play and we're going to

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Speaker 2: just enjoy that that component of the game. So it's

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Speaker 2: one of the most special and interesting projects that we've

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Speaker 2: ever been involved with, and I am excited for people

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Speaker 2: to get a look at it.

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Speaker 1: Something I noticed with stream song Black a Hoopie even

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Speaker 1: yesterday walking around Pinehurst Fourth, like, is walkability something that

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Speaker 1: you think about, like because those were some of the

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Speaker 1: most walkable courses, like even compared to the other courses

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Speaker 1: that stream song Black, I feel like you're fresher after

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Speaker 1: around at Black than you are at you know, one

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Speaker 1: of the other courses is do you think about that?

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Speaker 2: We do, because I mean, we're big believers that walking

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Speaker 2: is the way the game is supposed to be played.

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Speaker 2: And then we would never begrudge somebody who physically needs

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Speaker 2: a cart and that's the only way they can play golf.

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Speaker 2: You know, that's great, go ahead and take a cart.

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Speaker 2: I mean, we're big, big proponents of push carts. I

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Speaker 2: think that you know, pull carts, whatever you want to

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Speaker 2: call them. I think that that unfortunately, there's a stigma

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Speaker 2: around that here in the United States, which you know,

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Speaker 2: you go to the best clubs in Britain or in

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Speaker 2: Australia and everybody's pulling their clubs around. I think anything

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Speaker 2: you can do to get people to walk is that

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Speaker 2: it's the essence of the game. And you know, golf

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Speaker 2: courses have always been meant to be enjoyed at a

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Speaker 2: walking pace. You know, Jim and I refer to it

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Speaker 2: as golf at fifty five miles an hour. When you're

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Speaker 2: in a cart, you're just blowing through the landscape. You're

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Speaker 2: not in touch with it, You're not in contact with

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Speaker 2: the ground, you're not feeling the undulations, you're not visiting

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Speaker 2: with everybody in your group. You know, if you and

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Speaker 2: I are playing in a cart, we're basically spending four hours,

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Speaker 2: well hopefully it's only four hours, you know, together, you know,

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Speaker 2: whereas the other two guys, we're just going to see

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Speaker 2: them up on the green and then that's it, and

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Speaker 2: that's the only time we're going to get to be

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Speaker 2: with him. Whereas when you're walking, you're you're constantly changed

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Speaker 2: depending on which direction your ball went, You're walking with

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Speaker 2: a different person, and you're getting sort of to enjoy

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Speaker 2: that experience much more so. It's in our minds. Walking

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Speaker 2: gets you the feeling of being in nature. Being on

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Speaker 2: the ground sets the right pace for the game of golf.

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Speaker 2: So anything we can do within our designs to help

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Speaker 2: keep that in the forefront. So we do. We put

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Speaker 2: teas and greens in close proximity. We look at the

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Speaker 2: opportunities that exist where not a lot of people are

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Speaker 2: going to be playing the back tea, So maybe we'll

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Speaker 2: sneak the back teas a little bit closer and then

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Speaker 2: so you're just kind of that then makes the forward

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Speaker 2: t s, you know, sort of walking in progression. You know,

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Speaker 2: you're just sort of moving in those directions in that direction.

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Speaker 2: So I think it's one of those things where we're

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Speaker 2: we're cognizant of it. We're big believers that we want

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Speaker 2: to push the envelope as much as we can to

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Speaker 2: enable walking to be comfortable. And you know, I think

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Speaker 2: one of the things we love so much about these

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Speaker 2: great old classic golf courses. We love the features, we

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Speaker 2: love the variety, we love the way that they sit

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Speaker 2: in the landscape, but we also love that compact nature

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Speaker 2: of just sort of green next tea, and there's just

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Speaker 2: something that's right about that. And you know, unfortunately, a

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Speaker 2: lot of what went wrong with golf architecture in the

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Speaker 2: nineties and two thousands is just, you know, the golf

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Speaker 2: courses weren't being built where golf was the primary focus.

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Speaker 2: A lot of them were real estate driven, and that

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Speaker 2: just lent to the cart mentality and not just couldn't

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Speaker 2: physically walk the golf courses. There's so much separation between holes,

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Speaker 2: and so I think what we're focused on, what Bill

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Speaker 2: and Ben do, what Tom Doak does. I mean, we

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Speaker 2: really are trying. We've been really fortunate to have these

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Speaker 2: types of landscapes where we can build walking golf courses

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Speaker 2: and owners that embrace that feel. But within within that,

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Speaker 2: we feel very strongly that we want to push the

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Speaker 2: envelope as close as we can to make the golf

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Speaker 2: courses as compact as possible.

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Speaker 1: We talked about par with regards to a hoopie. If

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Speaker 1: you could remove par from one of your other courses,

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Speaker 1: which one would it be?

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Speaker 2: Probably the Olympic course, I think the Olympic course in Rio.

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Speaker 2: You know, we purposely designed it as a par seventy

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Speaker 2: one because we didn't want We thought that in a

432
00:22:57,680 --> 00:23:00,960
Speaker 2: developing country or with the golf course is going to

433
00:23:01,000 --> 00:23:02,520
Speaker 2: be on the world stage and a lot of sort

434
00:23:02,560 --> 00:23:07,080
Speaker 2: of developing countries watching golf in the Olympics, that there

435
00:23:07,160 --> 00:23:09,359
Speaker 2: was the opportunity to show that golf doesn't have to

436
00:23:09,400 --> 00:23:12,200
Speaker 2: be seventy five hundred yards par seventy two, that there

437
00:23:12,240 --> 00:23:15,040
Speaker 2: can be a differentiation in par and par seventy one

438
00:23:15,160 --> 00:23:18,439
Speaker 2: is fine. So we built that golf course with a

439
00:23:18,480 --> 00:23:21,439
Speaker 2: ton of half par holes, really just thinking that the

440
00:23:21,480 --> 00:23:25,159
Speaker 2: flexibility that's afforded in that would would be fun to

441
00:23:25,280 --> 00:23:28,159
Speaker 2: watch and fun to play. So I think if that

442
00:23:28,200 --> 00:23:31,440
Speaker 2: golf course really just par was irrelevant and it was

443
00:23:31,520 --> 00:23:33,679
Speaker 2: just go out there and play golf. And I really

444
00:23:33,720 --> 00:23:36,040
Speaker 2: really wish that golf in the Olympics would have had

445
00:23:36,040 --> 00:23:38,520
Speaker 2: a matchplay component to it would have been so much.

446
00:23:40,160 --> 00:23:41,840
Speaker 2: I think from our standpoint, it would have been much

447
00:23:41,840 --> 00:23:44,040
Speaker 2: more compelling and interesting, and that could have been a

448
00:23:44,040 --> 00:23:47,440
Speaker 2: team competition, and you know, it was great. We were

449
00:23:47,560 --> 00:23:49,920
Speaker 2: fortunate that we got to see Justin Rose and Hendrick

450
00:23:49,960 --> 00:23:53,440
Speaker 2: Stintson battle down the final golf hole and make decisions

451
00:23:53,920 --> 00:23:56,479
Speaker 2: on how they played that golf hole to win a

452
00:23:56,480 --> 00:23:59,200
Speaker 2: gold medal, and so I think from that standpoint it

453
00:23:59,320 --> 00:24:02,840
Speaker 2: was exciting and thrilling. But it would have been so

454
00:24:02,920 --> 00:24:04,800
Speaker 2: cool to see people see them play match play on

455
00:24:04,840 --> 00:24:05,560
Speaker 2: that golf course.

456
00:24:06,520 --> 00:24:10,280
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think if they did the way the ncaaas

457
00:24:10,359 --> 00:24:13,080
Speaker 1: have it with like they do this stroke play and

458
00:24:13,119 --> 00:24:15,719
Speaker 1: then they got eight teams in advance and they do

459
00:24:15,800 --> 00:24:19,800
Speaker 1: match play, and it would be really cool. But I

460
00:24:19,840 --> 00:24:23,160
Speaker 1: think that people always say, well, like fielding a team

461
00:24:23,200 --> 00:24:25,760
Speaker 1: of four is a lot harder for a lot of countries,

462
00:24:25,840 --> 00:24:29,320
Speaker 1: or five fielding a team of five, But I think

463
00:24:29,359 --> 00:24:31,920
Speaker 1: that would lend itself to upsets too, so it would

464
00:24:31,920 --> 00:24:33,720
Speaker 1: be kind of neat to see if somebody could take

465
00:24:33,760 --> 00:24:34,440
Speaker 1: down America.

466
00:24:34,840 --> 00:24:37,199
Speaker 2: I agree. And then the other thing is that you

467
00:24:37,200 --> 00:24:38,840
Speaker 2: know all you need are too, I mean, you just

468
00:24:38,920 --> 00:24:42,199
Speaker 2: need to to make make a team, and you know,

469
00:24:42,400 --> 00:24:44,719
Speaker 2: you look at all the other sports and if a country,

470
00:24:44,920 --> 00:24:47,000
Speaker 2: you know, there are a lot more American swimmers in

471
00:24:47,080 --> 00:24:50,240
Speaker 2: other countries because they qualify, and if the more Americans qualify,

472
00:24:50,240 --> 00:24:53,000
Speaker 2: are more Brits qualify, well, then that's because they've earned it,

473
00:24:53,000 --> 00:24:55,280
Speaker 2: it's not because it was given to them. So if

474
00:24:55,320 --> 00:24:59,119
Speaker 2: the Americans can feel two teams of two and you

475
00:24:59,119 --> 00:25:01,840
Speaker 2: know Sweden can only field one team of two, well

476
00:25:01,920 --> 00:25:04,800
Speaker 2: that's just because the way the ranking system is set up.

477
00:25:04,840 --> 00:25:08,240
Speaker 2: So there were a lot of reasons for why they

478
00:25:08,240 --> 00:25:09,760
Speaker 2: did what they did, and at the end of the day,

479
00:25:09,760 --> 00:25:12,159
Speaker 2: it was very successful. So there's you know, you really

480
00:25:12,240 --> 00:25:15,960
Speaker 2: it's hard to complain, but I think us purists would

481
00:25:16,000 --> 00:25:17,960
Speaker 2: have liked to have seen things a little bit more creative.

482
00:25:19,080 --> 00:25:23,040
Speaker 1: Building the cradle here at Pinehurst Short Course nine hole

483
00:25:23,480 --> 00:25:28,359
Speaker 1: Part three. I guess what kind of different liberties and

484
00:25:28,560 --> 00:25:30,600
Speaker 1: different things can you do when you're doing a short

485
00:25:30,600 --> 00:25:33,320
Speaker 1: course versus a regulation course.

486
00:25:34,560 --> 00:25:37,719
Speaker 2: Well, the thing about the Cradle was that everything about

487
00:25:37,760 --> 00:25:41,080
Speaker 2: it was predicated on fun. I mean, we like to

488
00:25:41,080 --> 00:25:43,359
Speaker 2: try and build golf courses that are fun to play,

489
00:25:43,359 --> 00:25:45,040
Speaker 2: and you know, some people say we do a good

490
00:25:45,119 --> 00:25:47,080
Speaker 2: job of that. Some people say we don't. There's some

491
00:25:47,240 --> 00:25:52,240
Speaker 2: two difficults occasionally, but you know, we we think and

492
00:25:52,280 --> 00:25:54,200
Speaker 2: we've read a lot about it. You know, I think

493
00:25:54,200 --> 00:25:56,880
Speaker 2: it was Simpson and Simpson and Weather. It's book about

494
00:25:56,880 --> 00:25:59,560
Speaker 2: a sense of humor and golf architecture, and I think that,

495
00:25:59,720 --> 00:26:01,800
Speaker 2: you know, a lot of the earlier architects felt like

496
00:26:01,840 --> 00:26:06,840
Speaker 2: that was important. Part of the personality of a golf

497
00:26:06,880 --> 00:26:10,280
Speaker 2: course was that you wanted to have some humor in there.

498
00:26:10,320 --> 00:26:14,119
Speaker 2: And so when we were tasked to try and figure

499
00:26:14,160 --> 00:26:17,359
Speaker 2: out how to lay out a short course on the

500
00:26:17,400 --> 00:26:20,679
Speaker 2: ground that they gave us, Jim and I looked at

501
00:26:20,760 --> 00:26:23,400
Speaker 2: and just thought about fun. Let's just build fun holes.

502
00:26:23,480 --> 00:26:26,400
Speaker 2: Let's try and build a variety of ways to play

503
00:26:26,440 --> 00:26:29,480
Speaker 2: these golf holes, a variety of ways to approach them

504
00:26:29,480 --> 00:26:32,000
Speaker 2: and attack them. Let's try and make them feel like

505
00:26:32,040 --> 00:26:36,800
Speaker 2: they sit in the landscape quite nicely. There was no

506
00:26:37,119 --> 00:26:40,120
Speaker 2: edict to build nine holes. It was just whatever fit.

507
00:26:41,200 --> 00:26:43,960
Speaker 2: Jim and I both thought that if we could retain

508
00:26:44,160 --> 00:26:47,280
Speaker 2: the two greens that were there. So the originally where

509
00:26:47,280 --> 00:26:51,240
Speaker 2: the cradle sits was originally holes one on courses three

510
00:26:51,240 --> 00:26:55,520
Speaker 2: and five, and so we kept the two greens just

511
00:26:55,520 --> 00:26:57,800
Speaker 2: as sort of an homage to the work to the

512
00:26:57,800 --> 00:27:00,639
Speaker 2: holes that were there. So that was always going to

513
00:27:00,640 --> 00:27:02,080
Speaker 2: be part of the routing. So then it was just

514
00:27:02,119 --> 00:27:05,880
Speaker 2: how do we tackle this side hill site and try

515
00:27:05,880 --> 00:27:10,560
Speaker 2: and get a variety of lengths and angles et cetera,

516
00:27:10,600 --> 00:27:13,040
Speaker 2: et cetera an uphill downhill. And so once that all

517
00:27:13,040 --> 00:27:15,840
Speaker 2: fell into place, it became a focus on just fun,

518
00:27:16,359 --> 00:27:19,119
Speaker 2: you know, and we we looked at how do you

519
00:27:19,160 --> 00:27:23,120
Speaker 2: play the you know, punch bowl green. We we purposely

520
00:27:23,200 --> 00:27:25,880
Speaker 2: put a flat spot above that green so people could

521
00:27:25,920 --> 00:27:28,480
Speaker 2: sit and you know, ad arondick chairs and watch shots

522
00:27:28,520 --> 00:27:31,359
Speaker 2: come into it and cheer and yell or whatever. So

523
00:27:31,440 --> 00:27:35,840
Speaker 2: it was one of these things where again a little

524
00:27:35,840 --> 00:27:38,520
Speaker 2: bit like a whoopie, where you just you weren't worried

525
00:27:38,560 --> 00:27:41,919
Speaker 2: about the quote unquote shot values. You know, oh, is

526
00:27:41,960 --> 00:27:44,199
Speaker 2: this green going to be receptive to a to a

527
00:27:44,280 --> 00:27:48,000
Speaker 2: four hybrid or what's the potential range of shots people

528
00:27:48,040 --> 00:27:50,080
Speaker 2: are going to hit into this green? And what angle.

529
00:27:50,600 --> 00:27:52,520
Speaker 2: It was just like, Okay, people are going to drop

530
00:27:52,560 --> 00:27:53,879
Speaker 2: a ball on this tea and they're going to hit

531
00:27:53,880 --> 00:27:55,520
Speaker 2: They're going to figure out the best way to get

532
00:27:55,560 --> 00:27:58,400
Speaker 2: onto the green. And for the most part the shots

533
00:27:58,440 --> 00:28:01,640
Speaker 2: are under one hundred yards, so everybody should be able

534
00:28:01,680 --> 00:28:03,520
Speaker 2: to tackle that. And I think one of the nicest

535
00:28:04,400 --> 00:28:07,680
Speaker 2: compliments we got was from Rand Moore as set who

536
00:28:07,920 --> 00:28:11,000
Speaker 2: you know, golf club atleast he played out there and

537
00:28:11,040 --> 00:28:13,200
Speaker 2: he just loved He said, you know, there's you can

538
00:28:13,240 --> 00:28:18,199
Speaker 2: see that every class of player can find, you know,

539
00:28:18,280 --> 00:28:21,320
Speaker 2: a challenge level that's acceptable to their game. There's a

540
00:28:21,320 --> 00:28:23,720
Speaker 2: lot you know, you can put you can literally put

541
00:28:23,760 --> 00:28:27,360
Speaker 2: on every single hole if you wanted to, or there

542
00:28:27,359 --> 00:28:29,800
Speaker 2: are whole locations there where a guy like yourself who's

543
00:28:29,800 --> 00:28:32,119
Speaker 2: an accomplished players. You got to hit some shots. I

544
00:28:32,160 --> 00:28:35,320
Speaker 2: mean you really, you can't just fake it. But if

545
00:28:35,359 --> 00:28:37,520
Speaker 2: you're not worried about posting a score and you're just

546
00:28:37,560 --> 00:28:39,400
Speaker 2: out there, I mean, Tracy and I have played at

547
00:28:39,400 --> 00:28:41,320
Speaker 2: a number of times. We play in forty five minutes,

548
00:28:41,360 --> 00:28:43,400
Speaker 2: we have a ball. I mean, it's just it's all

549
00:28:43,440 --> 00:28:47,160
Speaker 2: about fun and that's that's I think something that's been

550
00:28:47,160 --> 00:28:49,080
Speaker 2: missing from the game. A little bit. And I think

551
00:28:49,080 --> 00:28:52,640
Speaker 2: if we can inject that into into the game and

552
00:28:52,680 --> 00:28:57,560
Speaker 2: get people attracted to the game, or you know, just

553
00:28:57,640 --> 00:28:59,520
Speaker 2: sort of say, hey, this is a there's a much

554
00:28:59,560 --> 00:29:02,800
Speaker 2: more vibe that goes with this setting here as opposed

555
00:29:02,840 --> 00:29:06,400
Speaker 2: to a lot of the sort of high stress levels

556
00:29:06,400 --> 00:29:09,160
Speaker 2: that people associate with golf, especially when they're first coming

557
00:29:09,200 --> 00:29:12,280
Speaker 2: to the game, then I think The Cradle will be

558
00:29:12,280 --> 00:29:14,320
Speaker 2: be successful in that regard. And I mean it's and

559
00:29:14,360 --> 00:29:16,280
Speaker 2: they gave us the front yard of the resort. I

560
00:29:16,280 --> 00:29:18,200
Speaker 2: mean you walk right out of the clubhouse and it's

561
00:29:18,240 --> 00:29:21,160
Speaker 2: just there, right there in your face. And for Pinehurst

562
00:29:21,240 --> 00:29:26,240
Speaker 2: to recognize that, you know, this prime real estate should

563
00:29:26,240 --> 00:29:28,560
Speaker 2: be dedicated to fun and just people out there having

564
00:29:28,600 --> 00:29:30,840
Speaker 2: a good time, I think really sends a great message

565
00:29:30,840 --> 00:29:33,000
Speaker 2: to the rest of the golf industry of where some

566
00:29:33,080 --> 00:29:34,320
Speaker 2: of our priorities should be.

567
00:29:35,160 --> 00:29:38,360
Speaker 1: It's funny. I played. I went around it a couple

568
00:29:38,400 --> 00:29:42,360
Speaker 1: of times, and I played with this older gentleman one time,

569
00:29:42,520 --> 00:29:45,360
Speaker 1: and I just was using a seven iron and a putter,

570
00:29:46,240 --> 00:29:49,240
Speaker 1: and I could see him like looking into his bag

571
00:29:49,640 --> 00:29:52,440
Speaker 1: and he's like, oh, dang, I forgot my because like

572
00:29:52,480 --> 00:29:54,720
Speaker 1: he had like a nine iron through wedge and he

573
00:29:54,760 --> 00:29:56,880
Speaker 1: didn't hit it very far, but you could tell like

574
00:29:57,240 --> 00:30:00,160
Speaker 1: he saw me like running it off different stuff, and

575
00:30:00,200 --> 00:30:02,440
Speaker 1: like he wanted to do it. And it's so interesting

576
00:30:02,440 --> 00:30:06,360
Speaker 1: because it brings I think that these types of courses

577
00:30:06,800 --> 00:30:11,720
Speaker 1: have the you know, ability to get people to use

578
00:30:11,720 --> 00:30:14,760
Speaker 1: their imagination more on the golf course as opposed to

579
00:30:14,800 --> 00:30:16,880
Speaker 1: the traditional aerial American golf.

580
00:30:17,520 --> 00:30:19,080
Speaker 2: I agree. I mean, I think it's one of the

581
00:30:19,120 --> 00:30:22,240
Speaker 2: things that we love to put into our designs and

582
00:30:22,280 --> 00:30:24,520
Speaker 2: we love watching. You know, Augustus seems to be the

583
00:30:24,520 --> 00:30:26,040
Speaker 2: one time of year where you actually get to see

584
00:30:26,080 --> 00:30:29,360
Speaker 2: it on TV or the Open Championship. Is that, you know,

585
00:30:29,360 --> 00:30:32,280
Speaker 2: when guys look in a different direction to get from

586
00:30:32,280 --> 00:30:34,360
Speaker 2: A to B as opposed to the direct line, and

587
00:30:34,680 --> 00:30:37,680
Speaker 2: I think that that adds so much to the fund

588
00:30:37,760 --> 00:30:40,960
Speaker 2: quote and the fun factor as we say, so, I

589
00:30:41,720 --> 00:30:43,480
Speaker 2: think that's great that he was able to see that.

590
00:30:43,560 --> 00:30:46,400
Speaker 2: I mean, that's one of the nice things about the

591
00:30:46,440 --> 00:30:49,560
Speaker 2: Cradle is when you walk past it or when you

592
00:30:49,640 --> 00:30:52,080
Speaker 2: drive past it and you just see the smiles on

593
00:30:52,120 --> 00:30:54,560
Speaker 2: the people's faces and you see grandparents out there with

594
00:30:54,600 --> 00:30:58,360
Speaker 2: their grandkids. In a way, it's almost the most successful

595
00:30:58,360 --> 00:31:02,720
Speaker 2: thing we've ever done. Because it has captured the imagination

596
00:31:02,920 --> 00:31:06,360
Speaker 2: and it's it's really done. Is everything we had hoped

597
00:31:06,360 --> 00:31:09,360
Speaker 2: it would do. It seems to be doing, and that's

598
00:31:09,440 --> 00:31:11,840
Speaker 2: that's really gratifying or rewarding in itself.

599
00:31:13,400 --> 00:31:18,760
Speaker 1: Say you were tasked with building a municipal course, what

600
00:31:18,840 --> 00:31:21,920
Speaker 1: would you what would be the core principles?

601
00:31:23,440 --> 00:31:25,400
Speaker 2: You know, I don't think the core principles would change

602
00:31:25,400 --> 00:31:31,840
Speaker 2: from what we believe in. You know, I think we

603
00:31:31,560 --> 00:31:34,680
Speaker 2: we try not to dumb down golf courses just because

604
00:31:34,720 --> 00:31:38,239
Speaker 2: of you know, we maybe put like we did at

605
00:31:38,240 --> 00:31:42,160
Speaker 2: the Olympic course, maybe more short grass quote unquote hazards, uh,

606
00:31:42,400 --> 00:31:44,720
Speaker 2: you know, humps and bumps and hollows that you play

607
00:31:44,760 --> 00:31:50,240
Speaker 2: through instead of bunkers. But we like to build wide

608
00:31:50,240 --> 00:31:52,800
Speaker 2: golf courses, so I think it would stay wide. I

609
00:31:52,840 --> 00:31:56,200
Speaker 2: think that the recovery options would still be there. I

610
00:31:56,200 --> 00:32:01,600
Speaker 2: think angles would still be relevant. You know. It's it's

611
00:32:01,640 --> 00:32:04,640
Speaker 2: not something that we go into each project and we say, hey,

612
00:32:04,720 --> 00:32:09,160
Speaker 2: this is this is X. I mean we obviously the

613
00:32:09,200 --> 00:32:11,400
Speaker 2: client is going to dictate some of that. I mean

614
00:32:11,440 --> 00:32:13,320
Speaker 2: they're going to say this is you know what we've

615
00:32:13,400 --> 00:32:17,280
Speaker 2: hired you. Let's and we have the conversation this is

616
00:32:17,320 --> 00:32:19,040
Speaker 2: what we need to accomplish, this is what we want

617
00:32:19,080 --> 00:32:22,200
Speaker 2: to do. So a municipality would have its requirements and

618
00:32:22,240 --> 00:32:24,600
Speaker 2: we'd have to accommodate those types of things. But from

619
00:32:24,600 --> 00:32:27,280
Speaker 2: a design standpoint, we would really I think focus on

620
00:32:27,320 --> 00:32:30,080
Speaker 2: trying to still build a compelling and interesting test because

621
00:32:31,400 --> 00:32:34,479
Speaker 2: I think people like it. I mean, it's not a

622
00:32:34,480 --> 00:32:38,200
Speaker 2: class thing, like good design doesn't belong in a certain class.

623
00:32:38,200 --> 00:32:41,480
Speaker 2: It's only it's not only for wealthy private clubs. It's

624
00:32:41,480 --> 00:32:45,920
Speaker 2: for everybody. And you can see, you know, goat Hill

625
00:32:46,080 --> 00:32:50,200
Speaker 2: in California, you know, Winter Park in Orlando. I mean,

626
00:32:50,240 --> 00:32:54,320
Speaker 2: these are fun and interesting courses that are very playable,

627
00:32:54,400 --> 00:32:58,880
Speaker 2: yet they're sound architecturally. They're not just sort of you know, okay,

628
00:32:58,920 --> 00:33:01,840
Speaker 2: just beat it around and known attention. So I think

629
00:33:01,840 --> 00:33:04,400
Speaker 2: we would always still try to focus on building interesting

630
00:33:04,400 --> 00:33:07,400
Speaker 2: golf courses, no matter what the what the setting.

631
00:33:09,040 --> 00:33:11,720
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's I think there's a huge market there in

632
00:33:11,760 --> 00:33:15,440
Speaker 1: the future of doing stuff that's good instead of just

633
00:33:15,520 --> 00:33:18,920
Speaker 1: having like the monotonous uni that I grew up playing.

634
00:33:20,640 --> 00:33:24,880
Speaker 1: So as far as golf courses around the country, you know,

635
00:33:25,520 --> 00:33:29,120
Speaker 1: so you get ten rounds, you can take multiple at

636
00:33:29,680 --> 00:33:32,880
Speaker 1: different courses, you can you could use all ten at

637
00:33:32,880 --> 00:33:35,800
Speaker 1: one if you want it. What would be your what

638
00:33:35,840 --> 00:33:39,800
Speaker 1: would be how would you split them? Boy?

639
00:33:39,800 --> 00:33:44,280
Speaker 2: Oh boy, that's a good one. Hard, it really is.

640
00:33:44,360 --> 00:33:46,600
Speaker 2: I mean you'd have to you'd have to say, or

641
00:33:46,600 --> 00:33:49,800
Speaker 2: if I was going to play multiple rounds, it would

642
00:33:49,800 --> 00:33:52,400
Speaker 2: probably be at National Golf Lins. I mean, that's like

643
00:33:52,560 --> 00:33:55,160
Speaker 2: my aside from the old course. So you did ask

644
00:33:55,200 --> 00:33:56,520
Speaker 2: me in the United States, so I.

645
00:33:56,480 --> 00:33:58,560
Speaker 1: Mean, yeah, we'll keep it to the US. Yeah.

646
00:33:58,880 --> 00:34:02,800
Speaker 2: National would probably be three rounds, I'd have to say,

647
00:34:02,960 --> 00:34:05,720
Speaker 2: because it's just all about fun. I mean, I'm going

648
00:34:05,760 --> 00:34:08,520
Speaker 2: an average golfer at best, so I don't need to

649
00:34:08,560 --> 00:34:11,279
Speaker 2: get beat up. And you can get beat up at

650
00:34:11,360 --> 00:34:13,279
Speaker 2: National if you're not paying attention. But you can also

651
00:34:13,320 --> 00:34:16,400
Speaker 2: have the most fun golf experience you've ever had in

652
00:34:16,400 --> 00:34:19,359
Speaker 2: your life. So I think that that would be we'll

653
00:34:19,360 --> 00:34:22,759
Speaker 2: say three there. You've got a Fisher's Island shirt on,

654
00:34:22,880 --> 00:34:24,799
Speaker 2: so that would at least be one or two there

655
00:34:24,880 --> 00:34:27,960
Speaker 2: again just for the beauty. And the thing about Fishers

656
00:34:28,040 --> 00:34:30,719
Speaker 2: is that you know, everybody talks about the views, but

657
00:34:30,800 --> 00:34:34,120
Speaker 2: they're such great architecture there. I mean rain or the

658
00:34:34,160 --> 00:34:37,319
Speaker 2: angles and the things, the landforms he used and the

659
00:34:37,360 --> 00:34:38,120
Speaker 2: setup I mean.

660
00:34:38,040 --> 00:34:40,879
Speaker 1: It is the spines and the greens. Yeah, I mean

661
00:34:41,440 --> 00:34:47,200
Speaker 1: that's the stuff that like he had those bold external contours,

662
00:34:47,560 --> 00:34:50,800
Speaker 1: but then when you look at the interiors of the greens,

663
00:34:50,960 --> 00:34:54,719
Speaker 1: I think that's where he's unbeliev I mean, like the

664
00:34:54,760 --> 00:34:57,400
Speaker 1: greens are just unbelievable. At every rainer you go to,

665
00:34:57,520 --> 00:35:01,959
Speaker 1: you look at like what's inside, and then the unpinnable surfaces,

666
00:35:02,000 --> 00:35:04,440
Speaker 1: Like I think that's something that people just don't understand.

667
00:35:04,440 --> 00:35:05,680
Speaker 1: It's unpinnable surface.

668
00:35:06,160 --> 00:35:10,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, and it's yeah, I mean, Fisher's is a special

669
00:35:10,120 --> 00:35:12,279
Speaker 2: place and we've had the great fortune of being their

670
00:35:12,320 --> 00:35:15,239
Speaker 2: consulting architects for twenty plus years, so it's been just

671
00:35:15,280 --> 00:35:20,719
Speaker 2: this sort of uncovering, peeling back the layers of and it. Yeah,

672
00:35:20,760 --> 00:35:23,400
Speaker 2: it's a wonderful, wonderful spot. So that would get me

673
00:35:23,440 --> 00:35:26,200
Speaker 2: another one Cyprus Point you'd have to put in there,

674
00:35:26,280 --> 00:35:30,600
Speaker 2: so that gets me to five La North would be another.

675
00:35:31,960 --> 00:35:35,600
Speaker 2: Just again, I think you know, our experience is there,

676
00:35:35,640 --> 00:35:38,719
Speaker 2: how much we've learned, and just how enjoyable, how playable

677
00:35:38,719 --> 00:35:46,360
Speaker 2: it is Pine Valley again, just for the sheer perfection

678
00:35:46,560 --> 00:35:50,200
Speaker 2: of eighteen holes routed through an amazing landscape and having

679
00:35:50,280 --> 00:35:55,400
Speaker 2: the variety and the drama. I mean talking about eighteen

680
00:35:56,000 --> 00:36:00,719
Speaker 2: unforgettable holes on a golf course, that's that would be

681
00:36:00,719 --> 00:36:07,960
Speaker 2: another one. You know, fun fun, fun golf would be

682
00:36:08,120 --> 00:36:10,920
Speaker 2: like Myopia Hunt Club. I mean, that's just a blast

683
00:36:11,000 --> 00:36:13,719
Speaker 2: to be out in that setting. And now I'm like

684
00:36:13,800 --> 00:36:15,839
Speaker 2: totally on the snob appeal here, right because I've got

685
00:36:15,920 --> 00:36:20,840
Speaker 2: like all these top private clubs, and you know that

686
00:36:21,000 --> 00:36:23,520
Speaker 2: the one golf course that we've built, I think that's

687
00:36:23,600 --> 00:36:26,600
Speaker 2: nine so hopefully ten that every time I play it,

688
00:36:27,520 --> 00:36:29,440
Speaker 2: I go, man, I wish I played here more as

689
00:36:29,520 --> 00:36:33,560
Speaker 2: Boston Golf Club. There's just something about it. It's it's

690
00:36:34,360 --> 00:36:36,560
Speaker 2: you know, I think it was early on in our career.

691
00:36:36,680 --> 00:36:39,000
Speaker 2: We had the luxury of a lot of time. You know,

692
00:36:39,040 --> 00:36:41,600
Speaker 2: the owner there was the owners were sort of, hey,

693
00:36:41,800 --> 00:36:43,880
Speaker 2: let's take two years to build this. This is Boston.

694
00:36:43,920 --> 00:36:46,560
Speaker 2: You know, the weather's not going to cooperate. Gave us

695
00:36:46,560 --> 00:36:49,799
Speaker 2: a great piece of ground, and there's just, again, I think,

696
00:36:49,800 --> 00:36:52,239
Speaker 2: an emphasis on what we believe in architecture, a lot

697
00:36:52,239 --> 00:36:54,239
Speaker 2: of fun. There's a lot of with there's trouble. I mean,

698
00:36:54,280 --> 00:36:56,279
Speaker 2: you can you can get yourself in places that you

699
00:36:56,280 --> 00:36:57,680
Speaker 2: don't want to be, So there's a little bit of

700
00:36:57,719 --> 00:37:01,000
Speaker 2: Pine Valley in it in that regard, But I think, yeah,

701
00:37:01,040 --> 00:37:03,400
Speaker 2: if we had to pick, and I'm going to piss

702
00:37:03,400 --> 00:37:06,000
Speaker 2: off all the other clubs we've ever built or designed,

703
00:37:06,040 --> 00:37:08,920
Speaker 2: but you know, I think probably one round of Boston

704
00:37:08,920 --> 00:37:09,959
Speaker 2: Golf Club would be fun.

705
00:37:10,480 --> 00:37:14,239
Speaker 1: It's funny though, because like that answer could change, like

706
00:37:14,320 --> 00:37:17,560
Speaker 1: three months later, you could play somewhere. That's like the

707
00:37:17,600 --> 00:37:19,759
Speaker 1: beauty of golf course. You play somewhere. The more you

708
00:37:19,800 --> 00:37:23,439
Speaker 1: play somewhere, even more you appreciate it. You might learn

709
00:37:23,520 --> 00:37:26,799
Speaker 1: something about someplace, Like you're one hundred and fiftieth time

710
00:37:26,840 --> 00:37:29,279
Speaker 1: around that you're like the light goes on, you know,

711
00:37:29,360 --> 00:37:30,600
Speaker 1: and you're like, whoa.

712
00:37:30,840 --> 00:37:32,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I mean I'm sitting here now and I'm

713
00:37:32,520 --> 00:37:33,839
Speaker 2: just in the back of my head, I'm going, well,

714
00:37:33,960 --> 00:37:36,200
Speaker 2: you know, sand Hills, duh. I mean that was just

715
00:37:36,320 --> 00:37:40,280
Speaker 2: you know, you just there's so many great golf courses

716
00:37:40,320 --> 00:37:42,839
Speaker 2: that are out there that you know, obviously, we're all

717
00:37:42,880 --> 00:37:45,880
Speaker 2: fortunate to anybody who's listening to this is interested in

718
00:37:46,239 --> 00:37:49,520
Speaker 2: what we do and in this topic in particular, where

719
00:37:49,520 --> 00:37:54,640
Speaker 2: there's just yeah, that ten ten, that's a tough one.

720
00:37:55,200 --> 00:37:57,960
Speaker 2: You may have to peel one of nationals back and

721
00:37:58,440 --> 00:37:59,840
Speaker 2: put sand hills in there.

722
00:38:00,880 --> 00:38:04,719
Speaker 1: Say you get one hole in your backyard, it could

723
00:38:04,760 --> 00:38:07,680
Speaker 1: be someone else's hole, it could be one of your holes.

724
00:38:08,880 --> 00:38:09,480
Speaker 1: What would it be.

725
00:38:16,400 --> 00:38:21,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, the one of my favorite holes to play in

726
00:38:21,440 --> 00:38:25,520
Speaker 2: the world is number four at Fishers Island. So you know,

727
00:38:25,640 --> 00:38:27,879
Speaker 2: the nice thing about that is the Atlantic Ocean would

728
00:38:27,920 --> 00:38:29,800
Speaker 2: be in my backyard. So that would be a really

729
00:38:29,840 --> 00:38:33,040
Speaker 2: cool uh you know obviously, yeah, exactly, that would be

730
00:38:33,040 --> 00:38:35,960
Speaker 2: a pretty exciting place to sit. But yeah, for it

731
00:38:35,680 --> 00:38:39,520
Speaker 2: at Fishers is so cool. I mean, it's just, you know,

732
00:38:39,600 --> 00:38:42,040
Speaker 2: the combination of the alps in the punch bowl is

733
00:38:42,200 --> 00:38:46,480
Speaker 2: really special and unique and different, and just the the

734
00:38:46,520 --> 00:38:50,000
Speaker 2: t shot, you know, with the ocean lurking down the

735
00:38:50,040 --> 00:38:51,920
Speaker 2: right hand side, but the further you know, it's one

736
00:38:51,960 --> 00:38:53,880
Speaker 2: of those things you talk about. Everybody's overwhelmed by the

737
00:38:53,880 --> 00:38:55,920
Speaker 2: beauty of that golf hole, but it really is a

738
00:38:55,960 --> 00:38:58,319
Speaker 2: strategic hole. You play close to that edge and you

739
00:38:58,360 --> 00:39:01,960
Speaker 2: actually get a look around the corner to the bowl. Now, granted,

740
00:39:02,560 --> 00:39:04,319
Speaker 2: with the way people hit it now, it might be

741
00:39:04,360 --> 00:39:09,360
Speaker 2: a little bit short for better players, but it's just

742
00:39:09,360 --> 00:39:11,839
Speaker 2: put a hickory driver out exactly, Yeah, and just knock

743
00:39:11,880 --> 00:39:15,120
Speaker 2: it around with that. But every time I walk over

744
00:39:15,200 --> 00:39:18,120
Speaker 2: that hill and look down into that bowl, and the

745
00:39:18,160 --> 00:39:21,360
Speaker 2: anticipation of where's my shot? Where is where did it find?

746
00:39:21,640 --> 00:39:25,759
Speaker 2: I love that. I never ever get tired of that

747
00:39:25,960 --> 00:39:29,560
Speaker 2: type of shot. I know some people really dislike blind shots,

748
00:39:29,600 --> 00:39:32,320
Speaker 2: but in my mind that that's one of the greatest

749
00:39:32,360 --> 00:39:36,279
Speaker 2: walks we talk about walking golf courses. I feel like

750
00:39:36,360 --> 00:39:39,160
Speaker 2: people get robbed when they play that golf hole in

751
00:39:39,200 --> 00:39:41,839
Speaker 2: a cart because they drive around the side and they

752
00:39:41,880 --> 00:39:44,560
Speaker 2: never get that experience of coming up and over and

753
00:39:44,600 --> 00:39:47,799
Speaker 2: walking down into that bowl, Because that, in my mind

754
00:39:47,920 --> 00:39:51,320
Speaker 2: is just it's a glorious setting. But there's a combination

755
00:39:51,400 --> 00:39:53,960
Speaker 2: of the beauty of the setting and with that anticipation

756
00:39:54,120 --> 00:39:58,040
Speaker 2: of the result, And I just think that.

757
00:39:57,880 --> 00:40:05,560
Speaker 1: That's fun stretch of three through Like I think twelve

758
00:40:05,640 --> 00:40:07,759
Speaker 1: is like the most underrated hole out there, but like

759
00:40:07,800 --> 00:40:11,319
Speaker 1: three through twelve, I mean, thirteenth, they're all good, but

760
00:40:11,760 --> 00:40:14,120
Speaker 1: three through twelve is like one of the most exhilarating

761
00:40:14,160 --> 00:40:16,120
Speaker 1: stretches of golf in the world.

762
00:40:16,440 --> 00:40:19,600
Speaker 2: I agree, it really is. It's a special special place.

763
00:40:20,120 --> 00:40:22,719
Speaker 1: Have you ever walked around on that. You know, most

764
00:40:22,719 --> 00:40:25,359
Speaker 1: people don't know that there was originally thirty six holes

765
00:40:25,440 --> 00:40:26,000
Speaker 1: routed there.

766
00:40:26,719 --> 00:40:30,759
Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, I've never I've never tried to walk the

767
00:40:30,800 --> 00:40:33,239
Speaker 2: other golf course. I know where it was intended to be,

768
00:40:33,320 --> 00:40:35,919
Speaker 2: but did you try and walk all eighteens? You getting

769
00:40:35,960 --> 00:40:37,200
Speaker 2: kicked off of somebody's proby.

770
00:40:37,600 --> 00:40:40,160
Speaker 1: I just got the book and I was reading about

771
00:40:40,200 --> 00:40:43,279
Speaker 1: it and Rainer said it was maybe more dramatic than

772
00:40:43,760 --> 00:40:46,319
Speaker 1: the other one. You always want it. It's like I

773
00:40:46,400 --> 00:40:49,000
Speaker 1: always wonder what would have happened had the Great Depression

774
00:40:49,040 --> 00:40:55,240
Speaker 1: not happened. Sure that just that killed golf in America.

775
00:40:55,320 --> 00:41:01,799
Speaker 1: We do a overrated underrated segment, So okay, you have

776
00:41:01,880 --> 00:41:06,719
Speaker 1: to either pick overrated or underrated on what you know

777
00:41:06,760 --> 00:41:09,960
Speaker 1: these different topics. You can add explanation or you can

778
00:41:10,040 --> 00:41:16,160
Speaker 1: just say one or the other. Okay, center line bunkers underrated.

779
00:41:16,600 --> 00:41:22,279
Speaker 2: I think that they're they're interesting. We had recently put

780
00:41:22,320 --> 00:41:24,239
Speaker 2: them in on a hole on the PGA Tour at

781
00:41:24,239 --> 00:41:29,080
Speaker 2: TPC Boston, and the it was met with a vitriol

782
00:41:29,239 --> 00:41:32,600
Speaker 2: of which we have not been familiar on a lot

783
00:41:32,640 --> 00:41:35,400
Speaker 2: of our work. So unfortunately they've been removed from that

784
00:41:35,480 --> 00:41:38,480
Speaker 2: golf hole. But I think they ask a question that

785
00:41:39,200 --> 00:41:45,160
Speaker 2: most golfers are not comfortable answering, because we are. It's

786
00:41:45,200 --> 00:41:50,640
Speaker 2: been so ingrained in us that the the technically perfect

787
00:41:50,680 --> 00:41:53,799
Speaker 2: golf shot is down the middle of a hole, and

788
00:41:53,840 --> 00:41:57,520
Speaker 2: when all of a sudden the architecture requires the technically

789
00:41:57,520 --> 00:42:00,719
Speaker 2: perfect golf shot not to be struck or not, you

790
00:42:00,760 --> 00:42:03,160
Speaker 2: know that it's going to get into trouble. People lose

791
00:42:03,160 --> 00:42:06,000
Speaker 2: their minds on that, and I just think that that

792
00:42:06,560 --> 00:42:10,840
Speaker 2: from an architects perspective, is a very interesting thing to

793
00:42:10,920 --> 00:42:13,000
Speaker 2: try and insert. Now, you don't want eighteen holes of it,

794
00:42:13,080 --> 00:42:14,960
Speaker 2: but you definitely want to put it in once or

795
00:42:15,000 --> 00:42:18,080
Speaker 2: twice in a round and make people decide left or right.

796
00:42:18,160 --> 00:42:23,000
Speaker 2: And you know, it's interesting. I've talked to some professional

797
00:42:23,080 --> 00:42:25,480
Speaker 2: golfers and the hate that bunker in the middle of

798
00:42:25,520 --> 00:42:27,279
Speaker 2: the fairway and it's like, well, why, well, that's right

799
00:42:27,320 --> 00:42:29,359
Speaker 2: where I want to hit it. Well, like on this hole,

800
00:42:29,440 --> 00:42:31,120
Speaker 2: you don't you either want to hit it short or

801
00:42:31,239 --> 00:42:33,600
Speaker 2: left or go right of it or over it. Isn't

802
00:42:33,640 --> 00:42:35,359
Speaker 2: that more interesting now because that's right where I want

803
00:42:35,360 --> 00:42:37,319
Speaker 2: to hit it, And they just can't get it out

804
00:42:37,320 --> 00:42:40,160
Speaker 2: of their head that that's not where you want to

805
00:42:40,160 --> 00:42:42,360
Speaker 2: be on a hole. And so I guess from that standpoint,

806
00:42:42,960 --> 00:42:43,799
Speaker 2: I really liked them.

807
00:42:43,800 --> 00:42:48,520
Speaker 1: Actually, it's funny. There's a guy ahead on the podcast,

808
00:42:48,560 --> 00:42:53,400
Speaker 1: Scott Fawcett. He does course management for like pros and

809
00:42:53,680 --> 00:42:57,880
Speaker 1: high level players and college teams, and he talked about

810
00:42:57,880 --> 00:43:02,560
Speaker 1: the formulaic nature of most golf course architecture and how

811
00:43:02,719 --> 00:43:05,759
Speaker 1: he could do his job without it even really like

812
00:43:05,840 --> 00:43:10,560
Speaker 1: studying the course. And then I saw a comment he

813
00:43:10,640 --> 00:43:13,160
Speaker 1: made about Trinity Forrest where he thought it was silly

814
00:43:13,560 --> 00:43:15,920
Speaker 1: and he could he was having trouble, And it's so

815
00:43:16,040 --> 00:43:20,680
Speaker 1: funny because it's like, well, it's not formulaic there forces

816
00:43:20,719 --> 00:43:24,160
Speaker 1: you to make decisions, decisions change on the daily basis.

817
00:43:24,200 --> 00:43:26,799
Speaker 1: It's like, now, like how can you not say, like,

818
00:43:27,239 --> 00:43:32,440
Speaker 1: who cares about score when something requires decision and execution

819
00:43:32,680 --> 00:43:34,279
Speaker 1: versus just execution.

820
00:43:35,120 --> 00:43:37,560
Speaker 2: I couldn't agree with you more. I'm excited to watch

821
00:43:37,600 --> 00:43:40,960
Speaker 2: Trinity Forest and see what the players. The expectation is

822
00:43:40,960 --> 00:43:42,880
Speaker 2: that a lot of them won't like it or get it.

823
00:43:44,080 --> 00:43:48,680
Speaker 2: And you know that's unfortunate because anytime somebody tries to

824
00:43:48,719 --> 00:43:53,160
Speaker 2: do something interesting and ask these questions of players and

825
00:43:53,200 --> 00:43:57,160
Speaker 2: have them make decisions and have the the proper way

826
00:43:57,200 --> 00:44:00,960
Speaker 2: to play a golf course when it's when it requires

827
00:44:02,239 --> 00:44:09,239
Speaker 2: thoughtful consideration and study and care and approach that's the

828
00:44:09,360 --> 00:44:12,360
Speaker 2: highest that's the highest point of golf course architecture. And

829
00:44:12,719 --> 00:44:16,640
Speaker 2: when that happens a lot of times in professional events,

830
00:44:16,640 --> 00:44:20,120
Speaker 2: it's poo pooed or say, well that's not right because

831
00:44:20,160 --> 00:44:22,479
Speaker 2: it's like you said, it's not formulaic, it doesn't fit

832
00:44:22,520 --> 00:44:24,680
Speaker 2: the mold. And so I think that it's going to

833
00:44:24,760 --> 00:44:28,400
Speaker 2: require I would almost guarantee that the champion there is

834
00:44:28,400 --> 00:44:29,920
Speaker 2: going to be a thoughtful player. Is going to be

835
00:44:29,960 --> 00:44:32,440
Speaker 2: a player obviously who can control their ball in the wind,

836
00:44:32,560 --> 00:44:34,839
Speaker 2: but is somebody who can actually think their way around

837
00:44:34,880 --> 00:44:37,440
Speaker 2: a golf course and that that, in my mind, should

838
00:44:37,480 --> 00:44:40,160
Speaker 2: be applauded at a higher level than the players who

839
00:44:40,200 --> 00:44:42,719
Speaker 2: are just going to say I don't get this. You

840
00:44:42,760 --> 00:44:47,640
Speaker 2: know that. Unfortunately, the way the media is not just

841
00:44:47,760 --> 00:44:50,560
Speaker 2: golf media, all media, they want the negative. They want

842
00:44:50,600 --> 00:44:53,239
Speaker 2: that big impact splash. Instead of a guy who says, hey,

843
00:44:53,320 --> 00:44:55,279
Speaker 2: this is great, it's really thoughtful, et cetera. They want

844
00:44:55,280 --> 00:44:58,640
Speaker 2: the guys as well, this sucks. And so that's unfortunately

845
00:44:58,640 --> 00:45:01,000
Speaker 2: probably what we're going to hear more of. But I'll

846
00:45:01,040 --> 00:45:03,520
Speaker 2: be excited to watch that torm, more excited than probably

847
00:45:03,520 --> 00:45:04,879
Speaker 2: almost any tournament this year.

848
00:45:05,239 --> 00:45:06,920
Speaker 1: And I'm calling it the fourth Major.

849
00:45:08,080 --> 00:45:08,680
Speaker 2: I love it.

850
00:45:11,560 --> 00:45:14,239
Speaker 1: Yeah, I hope, I hope it doesn't rain. That's like

851
00:45:14,320 --> 00:45:17,799
Speaker 1: my I want. I just it's if it's firm. I

852
00:45:17,840 --> 00:45:24,720
Speaker 1: think it'll be just fascinating to watch. I agree, So scale.

853
00:45:27,680 --> 00:45:31,680
Speaker 2: Underrated. I think that scale is an important component of

854
00:45:31,719 --> 00:45:34,520
Speaker 2: everything we do as golf course architects. I think that

855
00:45:34,600 --> 00:45:41,520
Speaker 2: the uh, the appropriate scale, whether the human eye you know,

856
00:45:42,239 --> 00:45:45,400
Speaker 2: sort of actively appreciates it. I think it's just the

857
00:45:45,480 --> 00:45:50,360
Speaker 2: human eye and brain intuitively understands when something's in proper

858
00:45:50,360 --> 00:45:52,919
Speaker 2: scale as opposed to out of scale. And I think

859
00:45:52,920 --> 00:45:55,040
Speaker 2: golf courses that are out of scale or features that

860
00:45:55,080 --> 00:45:59,120
Speaker 2: are out of scale just don't feel right. And I

861
00:45:59,160 --> 00:46:01,480
Speaker 2: think that that's easy, you know. So I think that

862
00:46:01,800 --> 00:46:04,640
Speaker 2: an understanding of scale is probably the most important thing

863
00:46:04,640 --> 00:46:07,120
Speaker 2: I learned in landscape architecture. You know, a lot of

864
00:46:07,120 --> 00:46:11,240
Speaker 2: what we studied there really had no relevancy to golf

865
00:46:11,280 --> 00:46:13,800
Speaker 2: course design. But scale was one of the most important

866
00:46:13,800 --> 00:46:17,120
Speaker 2: elements of sort of the arrangement of a landscape in

867
00:46:17,200 --> 00:46:21,359
Speaker 2: scale and harmony with nature. I think every golf course,

868
00:46:21,400 --> 00:46:24,440
Speaker 2: if you can accomplish those goals and make it feel

869
00:46:24,480 --> 00:46:26,720
Speaker 2: like it's in harmony with its site and it's setting,

870
00:46:26,760 --> 00:46:30,759
Speaker 2: and that the scale of it is appropriate from a

871
00:46:30,800 --> 00:46:33,360
Speaker 2: presentation standpoint, those are the best golf courses.

872
00:46:35,160 --> 00:46:36,640
Speaker 1: Philly cheese steaks.

873
00:46:40,080 --> 00:46:45,759
Speaker 2: Real Philly cheese steaks are underrated outside of Philadelphia. I

874
00:46:45,800 --> 00:46:48,520
Speaker 2: would never buy a cheese steak outside of Philadelphia. They're

875
00:46:48,560 --> 00:46:50,960
Speaker 2: just horrible. There's just something. I don't know what it is.

876
00:46:50,960 --> 00:46:54,080
Speaker 2: It's probably all the bad chemicals in the cheese whiz,

877
00:46:54,120 --> 00:46:56,360
Speaker 2: et cetera that we put into them in Philadelphia. But

878
00:46:56,400 --> 00:46:58,440
Speaker 2: they're in Philly, they're awesome.

879
00:46:59,040 --> 00:47:01,320
Speaker 1: What's your spot in Philly?

880
00:47:01,960 --> 00:47:04,040
Speaker 2: We just have a local place, you know. It's so

881
00:47:04,160 --> 00:47:06,560
Speaker 2: we don't I don't go to patser Gino's, and you know,

882
00:47:06,600 --> 00:47:10,320
Speaker 2: we'd rarely are in the city. You know, my days

883
00:47:10,320 --> 00:47:13,839
Speaker 2: of drinking in excess until two am or over. So

884
00:47:13,920 --> 00:47:15,640
Speaker 2: it's one of those things where I'm not going to

885
00:47:15,680 --> 00:47:18,160
Speaker 2: show up at patser Gino's after being in South Street

886
00:47:18,200 --> 00:47:21,719
Speaker 2: for you know, hours drinking beers. So it's just it's

887
00:47:21,760 --> 00:47:24,200
Speaker 2: a it's a local spot for us that we go to.

888
00:47:24,239 --> 00:47:25,480
Speaker 2: It's Anthony's in Malvern.

889
00:47:26,960 --> 00:47:29,760
Speaker 1: I have Italian beefs are better than Philly cheese steaks,

890
00:47:30,400 --> 00:47:31,279
Speaker 1: you know, a.

891
00:47:31,280 --> 00:47:34,719
Speaker 2: Chicago absolutely all. I like the Chicago hot dogs was

892
00:47:34,760 --> 00:47:37,560
Speaker 2: Vienna beef hot dogs. Those are awesome, and well the

893
00:47:37,880 --> 00:47:41,399
Speaker 2: rolls with the little poppy seeds on fantastic, little sauer

894
00:47:41,440 --> 00:47:43,080
Speaker 2: kraut and brown mustard perfect.

895
00:47:43,640 --> 00:47:48,000
Speaker 1: Ah, not even having a real Chicago I know.

896
00:47:48,000 --> 00:47:51,680
Speaker 2: I don't like all that fruity, relishy stuff and onions.

897
00:47:51,200 --> 00:47:55,640
Speaker 1: And I don't either. I don't eat Chicago dogs, so

898
00:47:56,000 --> 00:47:57,880
Speaker 1: I'll probably get a lot of hate mail from that.

899
00:47:58,320 --> 00:48:00,000
Speaker 1: But what about desert golf.

900
00:48:04,880 --> 00:48:07,359
Speaker 2: I don't really even think about desert golf all that much.

901
00:48:07,400 --> 00:48:09,360
Speaker 2: I think there was a time where it was overrated

902
00:48:09,400 --> 00:48:11,800
Speaker 2: because it was a novelty. It was sort of okay.

903
00:48:12,480 --> 00:48:14,680
Speaker 2: You know, there's a time in the eighties and nineties

904
00:48:14,680 --> 00:48:19,040
Speaker 2: where the dramatic sort of difference between green grass and

905
00:48:19,440 --> 00:48:24,360
Speaker 2: desert landscape was to be promoted and sort of highly

906
00:48:24,400 --> 00:48:27,200
Speaker 2: thought of as a new Hey, look at this is

907
00:48:27,200 --> 00:48:29,719
Speaker 2: the new frontier. You know. Obviously people are moving to

908
00:48:29,800 --> 00:48:32,360
Speaker 2: this area and now we can irrigate and build golf

909
00:48:32,360 --> 00:48:37,919
Speaker 2: courses in it. I think if good architects build golf

910
00:48:37,960 --> 00:48:40,280
Speaker 2: courses in those settings, like you know, Bill and Ben

911
00:48:41,040 --> 00:48:43,160
Speaker 2: have done a few golf courses down there. I think

912
00:48:44,160 --> 00:48:48,000
Speaker 2: Tom Weiskoff and the TPC Scottsdale is really thoughtful architecture

913
00:48:48,000 --> 00:48:50,359
Speaker 2: and well laid out. So I mean, those I think

914
00:48:50,400 --> 00:48:53,840
Speaker 2: are great golf are fantastic golf courses in a desert setting,

915
00:48:53,920 --> 00:48:57,560
Speaker 2: but as the whole, the whole setting of what I've

916
00:48:57,600 --> 00:48:59,560
Speaker 2: seen of desert golf is probably overrated.

917
00:49:02,360 --> 00:49:07,319
Speaker 1: What's the last one? Who's the most underrated band? And

918
00:49:07,360 --> 00:49:09,200
Speaker 1: who's the most overrated band?

919
00:49:10,239 --> 00:49:10,799
Speaker 2: Wow?

920
00:49:11,120 --> 00:49:14,160
Speaker 1: Wow, wow.

921
00:49:15,360 --> 00:49:19,759
Speaker 2: Overrated. I've never been a fan of the Who. I

922
00:49:19,960 --> 00:49:22,239
Speaker 2: just you know, I like LEDs, I mean of that

923
00:49:22,320 --> 00:49:25,360
Speaker 2: sort of genre. I really enjoyed led Zeppelin and The Stones,

924
00:49:25,760 --> 00:49:30,319
Speaker 2: but the Who is kind of I can I can

925
00:49:30,880 --> 00:49:33,520
Speaker 2: give her. You know. One of the guys I played

926
00:49:33,560 --> 00:49:37,000
Speaker 2: golf with he would play the Who Live It leads

927
00:49:37,120 --> 00:49:39,120
Speaker 2: over and over again on when we were playing it.

928
00:49:39,160 --> 00:49:42,600
Speaker 2: I think maybe that just totally put me off of them,

929
00:49:42,960 --> 00:49:48,719
Speaker 2: So I'd say they're probably highly probably be my overrated band. Underrated.

930
00:49:52,040 --> 00:49:55,040
Speaker 2: So I guess the answer to that question would would

931
00:49:55,080 --> 00:49:57,759
Speaker 2: come if I could see any band sort of back

932
00:49:57,800 --> 00:50:00,439
Speaker 2: together and play and you know, in their prime, yeah,

933
00:50:00,920 --> 00:50:03,520
Speaker 2: or even just even now, to go back and just

934
00:50:03,560 --> 00:50:09,040
Speaker 2: get back together. I loved the Talking Heads growing up.

935
00:50:09,160 --> 00:50:11,360
Speaker 2: I just and I still love the talking Heads. I

936
00:50:11,360 --> 00:50:13,560
Speaker 2: mean anytime Burning Down the House comes on, like the

937
00:50:13,719 --> 00:50:16,400
Speaker 2: speaker's just going up. It's just one of those things

938
00:50:16,480 --> 00:50:19,160
Speaker 2: I just I've always and to see them again would

939
00:50:19,160 --> 00:50:20,799
Speaker 2: be really cool. And they're actually, I think all four

940
00:50:20,800 --> 00:50:23,040
Speaker 2: of them still alive, so it would be a possibility.

941
00:50:23,120 --> 00:50:27,400
Speaker 2: So yeah, I think from a sort of that genre,

942
00:50:27,680 --> 00:50:30,879
Speaker 2: you know, that new wave time frame where things were

943
00:50:30,880 --> 00:50:33,400
Speaker 2: sort of changing and going over. They they did a

944
00:50:33,440 --> 00:50:38,640
Speaker 2: really cool job of straddling that punk new wave rock line.

945
00:50:38,640 --> 00:50:42,960
Speaker 2: And David Byrne, I think is really an amazing performer.

946
00:50:43,040 --> 00:50:44,720
Speaker 2: So yeah, I probably would go Talking Heads.

947
00:50:45,160 --> 00:50:48,000
Speaker 1: They have some songs that there are a few songs

948
00:50:48,080 --> 00:50:53,560
Speaker 1: where you can listen to it in at any setting. Yeah,

949
00:50:53,600 --> 00:50:56,239
Speaker 1: that's true, And like you could be just chilling like

950
00:50:56,800 --> 00:51:00,920
Speaker 1: on your couch night in you could you could be

951
00:51:01,120 --> 00:51:04,279
Speaker 1: at a rager. You can put it on and everybody be.

952
00:51:04,320 --> 00:51:07,399
Speaker 2: Like, yeah, you know another band that I really liked it.

953
00:51:07,520 --> 00:51:11,400
Speaker 2: I think I think they do. They're very artist artisty

954
00:51:11,600 --> 00:51:14,719
Speaker 2: is Counting Crows. I could listen to Counting Crows all

955
00:51:14,760 --> 00:51:16,600
Speaker 2: the time, just sort of, you know, as a more

956
00:51:16,640 --> 00:51:20,040
Speaker 2: mellow alternative. But you know, you don't hear a ton

957
00:51:20,160 --> 00:51:23,440
Speaker 2: of ton about them. And obviously we've already had the

958
00:51:24,280 --> 00:51:27,680
Speaker 2: huge dead Deadhead and Dave Matthews are my favorites, but

959
00:51:28,360 --> 00:51:30,360
Speaker 2: I don't want to get them into the conversation of

960
00:51:30,440 --> 00:51:31,560
Speaker 2: overrated underrated.

961
00:51:31,920 --> 00:51:35,120
Speaker 1: I got a one last question. It's a theory that

962
00:51:35,200 --> 00:51:38,440
Speaker 1: I've thought of a lot. I asked Jeff Ogilvy about

963
00:51:38,480 --> 00:51:41,840
Speaker 1: this and he actually was like, I actually think about

964
00:51:41,840 --> 00:51:45,040
Speaker 1: that too. Do you ever think about like the trends

965
00:51:45,080 --> 00:51:50,719
Speaker 1: in architecture as music genres, like where Pete Dye was

966
00:51:50,800 --> 00:51:55,120
Speaker 1: like this kind of music with his style of architecture,

967
00:51:55,160 --> 00:51:58,879
Speaker 1: and the Golden Age was this, And like, yeah, I do.

968
00:51:59,040 --> 00:52:01,680
Speaker 2: I actually do think there's you know, there's something to that.

969
00:52:01,719 --> 00:52:05,120
Speaker 2: And I also think about architects and it obviously and

970
00:52:05,200 --> 00:52:08,279
Speaker 2: the personalities of sort of okay, you know, Bill cor

971
00:52:08,360 --> 00:52:10,279
Speaker 2: would be like James Taylor. He would just be the

972
00:52:10,320 --> 00:52:14,799
Speaker 2: most mellow, relaxed but so good. I mean, so yeah,

973
00:52:15,120 --> 00:52:19,080
Speaker 2: we definitely I give that some thought. And you know,

974
00:52:19,120 --> 00:52:21,000
Speaker 2: when you're in the bulldozer and you're pushing dirt for

975
00:52:21,040 --> 00:52:23,319
Speaker 2: a long period of time, there's all kinds of things

976
00:52:23,320 --> 00:52:26,160
Speaker 2: that cross your mind, and that might be one of

977
00:52:26,200 --> 00:52:30,480
Speaker 2: them that you know, and as we've talked about my

978
00:52:30,520 --> 00:52:34,000
Speaker 2: appreciation for music and the involvement it has actually in

979
00:52:34,640 --> 00:52:40,439
Speaker 2: our working My working environment is pretty pretty cool, all.

980
00:52:40,440 --> 00:52:43,640
Speaker 1: Right, Gil, thanks so much for the time. We look

981
00:52:43,719 --> 00:52:49,440
Speaker 1: forward to seeing your new designs and all that's not

982
00:52:49,680 --> 00:52:52,360
Speaker 1: just going on now, but what's going on in the future.

983
00:52:52,600 --> 00:52:54,520
Speaker 1: And thanks for coming on.

984
00:52:55,160 --> 00:52:59,120
Speaker 2: I appreciate it. Thanks, I've really enjoyed it. Chures, you've

985
00:52:59,160 --> 00:53:01,400
Speaker 2: been listening to the fried Egg podcast.

986
00:53:01,880 --> 00:53:03,400
Speaker 1: We do the digging for you.