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Speaker 1: This story contains adult content and language, along with references

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Speaker 1: to sexual assault. Listener discretion is advised.

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Speaker 2: Yes, your parents have told you not to go with strangers,

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Speaker 2: but really, if you have someone who comes to you

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Speaker 2: who's around the same age and would tell you that

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Speaker 2: he has a bag of candy and one who'd should

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Speaker 2: go with him to the circus, you never expect the

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Speaker 2: devil to be another child.

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Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson, a nonfiction author and journalism professor

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Speaker 1: in Austin, Texas. I'm also the host of the historical

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Speaker 1: true crime podcast Tenfold More Wicked and the co host

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Speaker 1: of the podcast Buried Bones on Exactly Right. I've traveled

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Speaker 1: around the world interviewing people for the show, and they

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Speaker 1: are all excellent writers. They've had so many great true

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Speaker 1: crime stories, and now we want to tell you those

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Speaker 1: stories with details that have never been published. To unfold

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Speaker 1: War Wicked Presents. Wicked Words is about the choices that

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Speaker 1: writers make, good and bad. It's a deep dive into

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Speaker 1: the stories behind the stories. I've been fascinated with the

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Speaker 1: story of Jesse Palmmeroy in eighteen seventies Boston for years.

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Speaker 1: He's the boy who murdered kids for quite a while

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Speaker 1: before he was caught. What does this story tell us

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Speaker 1: about crime today? Author Roseanne Montillo talks about her book

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Speaker 1: The Wilderness of Ruin, a tale of madness, fire, and

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Speaker 1: the hunt for America's youngest serial killer. I think our audience,

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Speaker 1: most of us have heard of Jesse Palmmeroy. It's an

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Speaker 1: infamous story. I know very little about it. I know

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Speaker 1: the broad strokes, and that's it. So let's start with

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Speaker 1: what do you think the themes are that you pulled

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Speaker 1: out of this story that would resonate with an audience today.

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Speaker 2: What's important about it? Well, you know, I actually hadn't

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Speaker 2: heard about him when I first ran across him, even

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Speaker 2: though I lived pretty close by, just a few miles

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Speaker 2: down the road from where he lived. And I think

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Speaker 2: what really resonated with me, even though the story took

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Speaker 2: place in the eighteen seventies, how current it was. It

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Speaker 2: was a story about a boy who committed crimes they

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Speaker 2: could have been plucked out from today's newspapers. And how

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Speaker 2: my mother tried to shield him away from what people

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Speaker 2: thought of him, a criminal, someone who needed to be

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Speaker 2: thrown away in a prison and never allowed to be

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Speaker 2: seen by others and never allowed to see the light

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Speaker 2: of day, and how everybody thought of him a monster,

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Speaker 2: but never really tried to study him to see why

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Speaker 2: these things were happening. And everybody had an opinion, but

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Speaker 2: nobody really knew what was happening, why he was committing

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Speaker 2: these crimes. And the funny part, well not really funny,

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Speaker 2: but tragic, is that everybody had an opinion, but no

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Speaker 2: one really knew what was happening. It's not like it

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Speaker 2: is today. Nowadays, people have the opportunity to when something

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Speaker 2: like this happens, you have the opportunity to go somewhere

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Speaker 2: to have him studied by doctor's psychologists. As a parent,

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Speaker 2: you have the opportunity to bring your child and see,

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Speaker 2: you know, what makes someone a killer. Back in the day,

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Speaker 2: Missus palm Roy had no support whatsoever. She had no

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Speaker 2: idea what was happening. She had no familial support, She

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Speaker 2: had no doctors going to her, she had no idea

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Speaker 2: if he was the only one around the country. She

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Speaker 2: had nothing. So she really was kind of a blank

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Speaker 2: slate and so it was difficult for her as well.

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Speaker 2: And there was no compassion for her, you know, there

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Speaker 2: was nothing going on. They had never heard people never

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Speaker 2: heard about a child permitting these sort of horrible crimes.

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Speaker 2: It's a story that's old, but it's also it's a

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Speaker 2: story that's current.

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Speaker 1: Well, let's, I guess, start with the family, with the

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Speaker 1: palm Roy family.

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Speaker 2: Let's start from the beginning. What do we know about them?

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Speaker 1: That sort of builds to the profile of who Jesse

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Speaker 1: Pomeroy was when all the starts.

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Speaker 2: It was a fairly poor family. It was a dysfunctional family,

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Speaker 2: as you could say. He came from a mother who

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Speaker 2: was someone who didn't have a steady job, but she

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Speaker 2: worked very hard, even though she didn't have anything concrete

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Speaker 2: to show. She took in laundry, she did cleaning, She

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Speaker 2: did as much as she could because her husband wasn't

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Speaker 2: the type who worked all the time. He was an alcoholic,

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Speaker 2: He was an abusive husband and an abusive father. Jesse

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Speaker 2: also had an older brother, Charles. He was what you

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Speaker 2: consider a good boy. He was the type obeyed parents,

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Speaker 2: He was good at school, He delivered newspapers. He also

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Speaker 2: was born. Charles was born without any physical defects. Jesse,

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Speaker 2: on the other hand, was not. Jesse had right from

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Speaker 2: the start, every day going against him. He had sort

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Speaker 2: of what they called a glassy eye, and it wasn't

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Speaker 2: really a glass eye, it was just an eye that

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Speaker 2: he wanted to call it a sort of like a

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Speaker 2: milky complexion. So he was always sort of bullied for that.

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Speaker 2: He was also not the strongest kid if you compare

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Speaker 2: them to children his age, he was not the biggest

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Speaker 2: kid in the group. That's why he liked to pick

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Speaker 2: on children who were younger than him, because normally if

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Speaker 2: you put them in a regular class, he was the

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Speaker 2: one who was bullied because of what he looked like.

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Speaker 2: And so he was bullied at school, but he was

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Speaker 2: also bullied at home his father. As soon as he

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Speaker 2: was born Jesse and he looked different, his father came

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Speaker 2: to bullieve that he was the son of the devil.

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Speaker 2: So if you get bullied at school, and if you

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Speaker 2: get bullied at home from your own father very badly,

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Speaker 2: to the point where he was told often to go

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Speaker 2: into his room and was beaten very severe by his

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Speaker 2: father with a belt, you know, strip making and beaten.

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Speaker 2: The only thing I feel that you're going to know

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Speaker 2: is violence. And so I don't think a lot of

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Speaker 2: people once the crimes started, Chok that kind of a

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Speaker 2: background into consideration.

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Speaker 1: So we know the family background. Now when do you

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Speaker 1: think things change for Jesse? This starts everything in motion.

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Speaker 1: Is there an event that happens, you know?

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Speaker 2: I think when the violence that his father has on him,

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Speaker 2: he starts his own violent behavior on animals. His mom

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Speaker 2: had birds, the neighbors had birds, so which I've read

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Speaker 2: enough to know that once you're starting your own violent

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Speaker 2: behavior on animals, that's not a very good sign. And

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Speaker 2: so you start with that. So he wanted to try

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Speaker 2: his own, to see how other creatures react to your

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Speaker 2: own violent behavior. I think it just escalated from there.

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Speaker 2: He started hurting birds, he started hurting little animals, and

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Speaker 2: so from there, I think he took pleasure in seeing

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Speaker 2: how these creatures, helpless creatures felt when he started violating them,

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Speaker 2: the idea that he felt pleasure hurting animals, and then

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Speaker 2: slowly escalated from there. There was a murder nearby, a

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Speaker 2: violent one, only when Jesse was only six or seven

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Speaker 2: years old. The murderer for that crime was never found,

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Speaker 2: and a lot of people have tried to pin it

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Speaker 2: on him. Although if that's the case, and I looked

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Speaker 2: into that, and while it does fit what he used

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Speaker 2: to do that would place him at a very young age,

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Speaker 2: six or seven. I shuddered to think that he actually

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Speaker 2: started that early. I'm not sure if he really did

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Speaker 2: that or not, even though it's close enough to his

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Speaker 2: early hunting grounds, but I think he was a little

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Speaker 2: bit older when he actually started that. He started right

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Speaker 2: across the river where he used to live, by starting

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Speaker 2: with violating young boys. And you know, he was pretty

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Speaker 2: he was pretty crafty, one thing that a lot of

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Speaker 2: people didn't believe. I think a lot of people have

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Speaker 2: a hard time believing in that children could elaborate and

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Speaker 2: come up with plans to be so smart. It is

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Speaker 2: too calculating to say that Jesse was, you know, eleven,

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Speaker 2: twelve years old even earlier than that, and say that

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Speaker 2: he wanted to move from Charlestown and go across the

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Speaker 2: river and go into Chelsea and find himself a boy

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Speaker 2: and say, you know, there is a circus nearby, let's

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Speaker 2: go and see it and then just attack a young boy.

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Speaker 2: And could someone that young be calculating enough to do

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Speaker 2: that sort of thing? And I don't think people want

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Speaker 2: to credit someone with that kind of behavior, but I

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Speaker 2: think it's plausible to do that.

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Speaker 1: Do you know a lot about the victims, like kind

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Speaker 1: of getting into their lives. Is he targeting besides just

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Speaker 1: young children? Is there anybody specifically we can talk about.

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Speaker 2: We can start with a young boy early on, because

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Speaker 2: he had sort of an them. Well, I mean, he

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Speaker 2: had a certain kind of child that he went after,

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Speaker 2: you know what I mean. He didn't pick them at random.

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Speaker 2: He had a look that he liked. He obviously didn't

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Speaker 2: pick children who were older than him. M He didn't

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Speaker 2: pick children who were taller or bigger than him. Those

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Speaker 2: he didn't approach because well, he was being bullied by

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Speaker 2: those who were older and bigger, so those wouldn't work out.

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Speaker 2: And he also picked children who were well loved, children

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Speaker 2: who were cared for, children who were pretty. So he

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Speaker 2: was jealous, yes, very jealous. Early on, he started by

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Speaker 2: molesting several of them, a handful of them. He didn't

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Speaker 2: kill a couple of them right away. He started by

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Speaker 2: molesting them. He started by getting sexual gratification from them.

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Speaker 2: He started by torturing them, and then he moved on

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Speaker 2: to really escalating into murder. And what he did to

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Speaker 2: them would be stabbed them, riding the eyes because he

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Speaker 2: was especially jealous of them, so you knew that. Part

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Speaker 2: of it was he knew he was never going to

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Speaker 2: be as well loved, as well taken care of, as handsome,

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Speaker 2: or as pretty as them.

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Speaker 1: So he drew out the first boy by getting him

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Speaker 1: to trust him.

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Speaker 2: Is that right? Yes, he drew the first boy by

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Speaker 2: telling them the usual line. He had candy. It's a

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Speaker 2: line that you tell your children never to take candy

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Speaker 2: from a stranger. But part of it was that this

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Speaker 2: young boy. When you tell someone to take candy from

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Speaker 2: a stranger, you never expect the devil to be another child.

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Speaker 2: The young boy was only like eight years old, and

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Speaker 2: the stranger was someone who was ten years old. The

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Speaker 2: eight year old is just a boy from a poor family.

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Speaker 2: He's just playing outside he does every afternoon, and he's

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Speaker 2: been told not to go away with strangers. And here

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Speaker 2: comes this boy who looks not too different than you are,

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Speaker 2: and he tells you that you know that the circus

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Speaker 2: is down the street. He's got a beg of candy.

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Speaker 2: And even though the parents tell their children not to

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Speaker 2: go away with strangers, when it's a child who comes

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Speaker 2: at you with a beg of candy and he tells

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Speaker 2: you that you can go and see the circus. Why

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Speaker 2: wouldn't you go? Parents don't usually warn children against other children.

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Speaker 2: They tend to warn children against adults who might want

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Speaker 2: to do harm to others. You know, at that time,

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Speaker 2: children weren't known to be killers or to want to

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Speaker 2: do harm to other children as well. Nobody really thought

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Speaker 2: of Jesse, or anyone else for that matter, as someone

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Speaker 2: who could go around and do harm to other children.

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Speaker 2: So this little boy ended up going with Jesse and

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Speaker 2: he wasn't killed. Jesse wasn't at that level yet, but

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Speaker 2: it was hurt quite badly, and the only thing he

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Speaker 2: could remember afterward was that he had a glass eye.

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Speaker 1: But was he able to say that this was a

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Speaker 1: child just a couple of years older than he who did.

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Speaker 2: This, Yeah, he described it as a child. But the

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Speaker 2: thing was that Jesse was not from the area. He

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Speaker 2: had walked there. So police looked around the area and

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Speaker 2: there was no one that could describe. No one knew

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Speaker 2: about a child with a glass eye as he described it.

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Speaker 2: Nobody was aware that there was this boy around the area.

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Speaker 2: Jesse came from across the bridge. Jesse lived in Charleston.

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Speaker 2: He lived on Bunker Hill Avenue. Although he was in

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Speaker 2: the papers, people started talking, and it was then that

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Speaker 2: his mother, Missus palm Roy, decided, you know what, After

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Speaker 2: a couple of times this happened more than once, Jesse

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Speaker 2: started moving around a little bit in the area and

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Speaker 2: the paper started kind of describing things, and Missus palm

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Speaker 2: Roy figure it out that they were talking about her son. Wow,

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Speaker 2: So what did she do? She didn't go to the police,

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Speaker 2: she didn't go to the authorities, she didn't go to

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Speaker 2: a teacher, she didn't go anywhere, which was I mean,

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Speaker 2: as a mother, what do you do? Do you protect

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Speaker 2: your child or do you go to the authorities. Legally

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Speaker 2: you have some things to do, but morally, what do

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Speaker 2: you do? Do you turn your son in? You know

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Speaker 2: what the consequences are going to be. So you have

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Speaker 2: illegal responsibility and a moral responsibility? Which one do you choose? Well,

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Speaker 2: she could have stopped it right there. That's why a

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Speaker 2: lot of people ended up being very angry with her.

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Speaker 2: People are angry with her because she could have stopped

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Speaker 2: the killings that happened afterward, as well as several abusive

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Speaker 2: situations that happened even afterward. Instead, she packed up and

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Speaker 2: she moved to South Boston, believing that the abuse would stop. Instead,

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Speaker 2: what happened was that she just moved the abuse from

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Speaker 2: one place to the next. Jesse didn't change the location change.

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Speaker 1: Do we have any idea how many Chills he attacked

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Speaker 1: before she made this discovery or the newspapers starting to

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Speaker 1: put the dots together and then they moved to South Boston?

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Speaker 2: Three? There were three that he attacked for sure. There

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Speaker 2: were two that died prior to that. As I mentioned,

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Speaker 2: this would have been when he was shooting really young.

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Speaker 2: He would have been six or seven, So I'm not

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Speaker 2: quite sure about those. And they're in a city a

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Speaker 2: little further out, so he would have had to travel

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Speaker 2: as somewhat bigger distance, a much longer distance. And it

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Speaker 2: gives me a little bit of a pause to that

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Speaker 2: because he was young. Yeah, you never know, you don't know.

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Speaker 1: And when you were saying that, I just looked up

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Speaker 1: really quickly to remember, you know, the six year old

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Speaker 1: who shot his teacher, and you know the mother was

255
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Speaker 1: in trouble with the law because of it. You know,

256
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Speaker 1: this this gun that he had access to, and he

257
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Speaker 1: stated clearly, from what I remember, I'm planning to shoot

258
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Speaker 1: my teacher. So that is different than what Jesse Palmroy did,

259
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Speaker 1: but it would not have occurred to me until that

260
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Speaker 1: story came out, you know, in twenty twenty three that

261
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Speaker 1: this had happened. So Ruthie and Palmroy says, let's move.

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Speaker 1: Is the husband still in the picture?

263
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Speaker 2: No, they divorced. She was pretty audacious at the time

264
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Speaker 2: because divorce was not something that was very common back then.

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Speaker 2: You know, she took a risk and she divorced a husband.

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Speaker 2: She thought better be divorced than married to someone who

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Speaker 2: will kill her.

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Speaker 3: Right.

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Speaker 2: He wasn't a abusive husband. He beat up his children

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Speaker 2: pretty badly. He wasn't drunken. So, I mean, many of

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Speaker 2: the choices she made were a little given the time

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Speaker 2: and the opportunities that she had. She also didn't have

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Speaker 2: much of a support system. Didn't have any family, She

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Speaker 2: didn't have people at the Sun's school were not with her,

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Speaker 2: parishioners were not supporting her. She was alone.

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Speaker 1: Well, tell me about the stakes here. If she had

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Speaker 1: turned him in and said I think he's a suspect,

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Speaker 1: what were the facilities like for why I know this

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Speaker 1: is unprecedented.

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Speaker 2: I mean, that's part of this story. What would they

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Speaker 2: have done with him? A reform school was an option.

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Speaker 2: He was a child, you know what I mean. He

283
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Speaker 2: was a child, So there were plenty of reform school

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Speaker 2: where he could have been sent, and there were facilities

285
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Speaker 2: for children where he would not have been caddled, that's

286
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Speaker 2: for sure. You know, these were not places where you

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Speaker 2: where you think you go and watch TV, because these

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Speaker 2: things didn't exist back then. So he would have been

289
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Speaker 2: made to work, so he would have been made to

290
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Speaker 2: attend meetings with doctors. He would have been studied, that's

291
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Speaker 2: for sure. He would have had to attend meetings. He

292
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Speaker 2: would have been punished, But there is also the possibilities

293
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Speaker 2: that he would have enjoyed some of those punishment because

294
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Speaker 2: they came to a point where the punishments that his

295
00:16:52,280 --> 00:16:55,800
Speaker 2: father was given him turned out to be pleasurable for him. So,

296
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Speaker 2: you know, there was a time where certain punishments that

297
00:17:01,200 --> 00:17:05,040
Speaker 2: he received from adults turned out to be almost pleasant

298
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Speaker 2: for him. He did attend reform school for a while.

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Speaker 2: He was in reform school because they did arrest him.

300
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Speaker 2: They did figure out after the last abuse that he

301
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Speaker 2: inflicted on a child, They eventually figured out who he was.

302
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Speaker 2: He might too walk along the beaches because he knew

303
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Speaker 2: that there were children there who were playing, and he

304
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Speaker 2: ended up abusing one of the children that he found

305
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Speaker 2: one of those spots for were but themselves, and the

306
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Speaker 2: child was able to identify him. Wow, And he was

307
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Speaker 2: arrested and sent to reform school, against you know, his

308
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Speaker 2: mother's wishes. He wasn't there for almost two years. His

309
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Speaker 2: mother wasn't happy about that and made sure that he

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Speaker 2: came out after two years. And you know, he didn't

311
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Speaker 2: mind it. That's the whole thing. Jesse didn't particularly mind

312
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Speaker 2: being in reform school because when he came out, he

313
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Speaker 2: actually wasn't reformed. He turned out to be worse than

314
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Speaker 2: the time that he went in. He came out more vengeful,

315
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Speaker 2: he came out more disturbed, he came out more intent

316
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Speaker 2: on doing harm. Reform school didn't work for him. His mother,

317
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Speaker 2: after a while was able to get him out because

318
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Speaker 2: she had an affair with a police officer. His mother

319
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Speaker 2: was just as crafty as he was, you know, was

320
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Speaker 2: a quick pro quol kind of a you know, and

321
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Speaker 2: she worked her whiles and he worked us. So she

322
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Speaker 2: came he came out and let's just say the reform

323
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Speaker 2: school didn't work. Like I said, he had time to

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Speaker 2: learn skills and STU. He was mad. He was very

325
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Speaker 2: mad because well before what he did was abused the kids.

326
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Speaker 2: Once he came out, he moved, His deeds escalated. And

327
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Speaker 2: if before the kids managed to get away from him,

328
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Speaker 2: once he came out, those kids had no chance, wow

329
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Speaker 2: at all. He wasn't going to let anyone get away

330
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Speaker 2: with anything. There weren't going to be any witnesses to

331
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Speaker 2: what he was going to do.

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Speaker 1: So if we removed the two children who died, who

333
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Speaker 1: you suspect because of Jesse's age, he would have.

334
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Speaker 2: Been six or so.

335
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Speaker 1: Because of the geographic location, it was too far flung

336
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Speaker 1: for him. If we remove those two boys, he hasn't

337
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Speaker 1: killed anybody before the reform school.

338
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Speaker 2: It's only when he's released.

339
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Speaker 1: Yes, okay, so that was sort of his trigger, his

340
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Speaker 1: inciting incident, I think so.

341
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Speaker 2: I think he had time to kind of finess, if

342
00:19:28,800 --> 00:19:31,200
Speaker 2: you want to call a deck. He had time to

343
00:19:31,440 --> 00:19:35,080
Speaker 2: think about things. He had plenty of time to sort

344
00:19:35,080 --> 00:19:37,879
Speaker 2: of sharpen his skills as well. There were plenty of

345
00:19:37,920 --> 00:19:41,399
Speaker 2: boys that he tried his hands on it. He spent

346
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Speaker 2: a lot of time in solitary confinement as well, because

347
00:19:44,720 --> 00:19:47,639
Speaker 2: of lots of things that he tried on other boys

348
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Speaker 2: while he was in the reform school. While he didn't

349
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Speaker 2: spend most of his time in solitary confinement, when he

350
00:19:54,440 --> 00:19:58,440
Speaker 2: was together with other boys, he was with kids who

351
00:19:58,640 --> 00:20:00,840
Speaker 2: were I don't want to say the or stilltill work,

352
00:20:01,000 --> 00:20:04,320
Speaker 2: but you know, these were kids who were just like him,

353
00:20:04,760 --> 00:20:08,359
Speaker 2: and so he managed to learn things. He also became

354
00:20:08,680 --> 00:20:12,119
Speaker 2: very much aware of how he was seen. And so

355
00:20:12,440 --> 00:20:14,600
Speaker 2: if they were gonna call him, if they were going

356
00:20:14,640 --> 00:20:17,000
Speaker 2: to abuse him, if they thought that he was mean,

357
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Speaker 2: he was going to be the best of the worst.

358
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Speaker 2: You know what I mean. You thought he was bad

359
00:20:22,680 --> 00:20:25,600
Speaker 2: when he went in, Well, you hadn't seen nothing yet.

360
00:20:44,320 --> 00:20:45,840
Speaker 2: Well let's tell the story now.

361
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Speaker 1: Chronologically, he's released from reform school and he's twelve at

362
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Speaker 1: this point.

363
00:20:50,760 --> 00:20:53,160
Speaker 2: A little bit older. He's thirteen and a half.

364
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Speaker 1: Okay, he's released to his mom's carriage. She's still in

365
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Speaker 1: South Boston.

366
00:20:57,800 --> 00:20:59,920
Speaker 2: Is She had opened up a little shop where she

367
00:21:00,119 --> 00:21:04,040
Speaker 2: sold newspapers, and her son, Charles, is a little bit older.

368
00:21:04,119 --> 00:21:06,359
Speaker 2: He's still the good the good son you want to

369
00:21:06,359 --> 00:21:06,600
Speaker 2: call it.

370
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Speaker 1: That.

371
00:21:07,000 --> 00:21:10,840
Speaker 2: He goes out and delivers paper. So Jesse, Jesse works

372
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Speaker 2: for them. You know, he goes out, they sell newspapers,

373
00:21:14,280 --> 00:21:18,159
Speaker 2: they sell pens, notebooks, and so people go there. And

374
00:21:18,240 --> 00:21:22,040
Speaker 2: so the first person who comes across Jesse has grown

375
00:21:22,040 --> 00:21:24,119
Speaker 2: a little bit now you know, it only looks a

376
00:21:24,160 --> 00:21:26,439
Speaker 2: little weird, but he has grown taller, he has grown

377
00:21:26,720 --> 00:21:30,639
Speaker 2: a little bulkier. And the first person that he kills

378
00:21:31,240 --> 00:21:34,480
Speaker 2: is a little girl names Katie Curran. She's a little

379
00:21:34,520 --> 00:21:37,960
Speaker 2: girl from the neighborhood. She goes out in the morning

380
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Speaker 2: one day before she goes to school. She tells her

381
00:21:41,280 --> 00:21:45,919
Speaker 2: mom that she's going to buy a notebook for school.

382
00:21:46,240 --> 00:21:50,639
Speaker 2: She's supposed to meet Charles, who usually tends to the shop,

383
00:21:51,000 --> 00:21:54,040
Speaker 2: but this morning he has gone out to deliver the newspapers,

384
00:21:54,520 --> 00:21:58,159
Speaker 2: and they've decided to let Jesse stay in the shop

385
00:21:58,560 --> 00:22:01,639
Speaker 2: because now you know, he's the good boy, he's been reformed.

386
00:22:02,000 --> 00:22:06,160
Speaker 2: And Katie, instead of meeting Charles, she meets Jesse, who

387
00:22:06,200 --> 00:22:09,120
Speaker 2: tells her that the notebooks are downstairs in the basement

388
00:22:09,640 --> 00:22:11,879
Speaker 2: and she should go down and pick one out. You know,

389
00:22:11,920 --> 00:22:14,320
Speaker 2: whatever she wants, she's able to go down and pick

390
00:22:14,359 --> 00:22:17,840
Speaker 2: one herself. Well, she goes down, picks one out for herself,

391
00:22:17,920 --> 00:22:21,080
Speaker 2: and she never comes up. He buries her in the basement.

392
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Speaker 2: The basement is. I don't know if you've ever been

393
00:22:23,760 --> 00:22:27,200
Speaker 2: to South Boston, but it's one of these triple deckers

394
00:22:27,359 --> 00:22:30,840
Speaker 2: that the basements are made of stone and the earth,

395
00:22:31,040 --> 00:22:34,040
Speaker 2: and it's not one of these places that you'd likely

396
00:22:34,160 --> 00:22:37,080
Speaker 2: go or keep anything, And it's really just a dirty

397
00:22:37,320 --> 00:22:42,119
Speaker 2: place that nobody really goes. And there weren't any notebooks

398
00:22:42,240 --> 00:22:46,120
Speaker 2: or newspapers or anything. And Jesse just killed her and

399
00:22:46,640 --> 00:22:51,800
Speaker 2: buried her under a pile of dirt cement stones and

400
00:22:51,960 --> 00:22:55,560
Speaker 2: left her there. The whole neighborhood started looking for her

401
00:22:55,920 --> 00:22:58,879
Speaker 2: where she possibly could have gone, because well, she was

402
00:22:58,920 --> 00:23:02,960
Speaker 2: a good girl and her parents were divorced, so automatically

403
00:23:03,560 --> 00:23:06,920
Speaker 2: they believed that maybe her dad could have kidnapped her

404
00:23:07,280 --> 00:23:10,359
Speaker 2: and brought her somewhere else, moved her to Main. You know,

405
00:23:10,440 --> 00:23:13,720
Speaker 2: the police really didn't take the whole thing seriously. They

406
00:23:13,920 --> 00:23:16,920
Speaker 2: felt that maybe she had been kidnapped, even though Jesse

407
00:23:17,119 --> 00:23:19,040
Speaker 2: was there. I mean, Jesse had just come out of

408
00:23:19,080 --> 00:23:23,240
Speaker 2: reform school. You would think that maybe someone would have

409
00:23:23,320 --> 00:23:27,439
Speaker 2: imagined that there was something slightly suspicious about that. You know,

410
00:23:27,560 --> 00:23:29,680
Speaker 2: Jesse had just come out, and you have a little

411
00:23:29,680 --> 00:23:34,040
Speaker 2: girl missing. Bells should have just gone off right there.

412
00:23:34,480 --> 00:23:38,479
Speaker 2: Nobody thought of that the investigation that little that was

413
00:23:38,560 --> 00:23:42,640
Speaker 2: done automatically placed her in the kidnapped area, and her

414
00:23:42,680 --> 00:23:46,000
Speaker 2: mom was very desperate to say that, Yeah, you know,

415
00:23:46,320 --> 00:23:48,880
Speaker 2: as much as my husband is a creep, I don't

416
00:23:48,880 --> 00:23:51,760
Speaker 2: think you would have done that to her. Until several

417
00:23:51,840 --> 00:23:55,720
Speaker 2: weeks months later, there was another murder right on the beach.

418
00:23:55,920 --> 00:23:59,040
Speaker 2: A little boy, Jesse, was walking on the sidewalk and

419
00:23:59,119 --> 00:24:01,360
Speaker 2: there was a little boy he wanted. He was four

420
00:24:01,440 --> 00:24:04,480
Speaker 2: years old, little boy, kid as a button. Again, he

421
00:24:04,600 --> 00:24:09,159
Speaker 2: got jealous because Horace there was his name, was an adorable, blonde,

422
00:24:09,200 --> 00:24:11,600
Speaker 2: blue eyed little boy who told his parents that he

423
00:24:11,640 --> 00:24:14,439
Speaker 2: could go out and buy some candy. He wanted to

424
00:24:14,480 --> 00:24:17,720
Speaker 2: feel like a big boy and wanted to walk down

425
00:24:17,960 --> 00:24:21,440
Speaker 2: two doors to buy candy. Jesse saw him, led him

426
00:24:21,480 --> 00:24:25,199
Speaker 2: down to the beach and killed them, stabbing him writing

427
00:24:25,280 --> 00:24:28,000
Speaker 2: the eye, you know, writing the eye you know where

428
00:24:28,040 --> 00:24:31,480
Speaker 2: I said that Jesse had that milky eye. Yeah, he

429
00:24:31,480 --> 00:24:34,640
Speaker 2: felt jealous and stabbed him, riding the eye and left

430
00:24:34,720 --> 00:24:37,480
Speaker 2: him right on the beach, and then he set fire

431
00:24:37,640 --> 00:24:41,520
Speaker 2: to him. So really it was a horrendous crime. And

432
00:24:42,160 --> 00:24:45,600
Speaker 2: hours later a couple of people who had gone to

433
00:24:45,640 --> 00:24:50,080
Speaker 2: the beach to fish found him and then you know,

434
00:24:50,240 --> 00:24:53,680
Speaker 2: they felt this time around, the police had a feeling

435
00:24:53,960 --> 00:24:58,640
Speaker 2: that Jesse had done it. This time around. Suspicion immediately

436
00:24:59,200 --> 00:25:01,000
Speaker 2: was on him and they arrested him.

437
00:25:01,359 --> 00:25:05,479
Speaker 1: So it's interesting that with Katie he conceals her so well,

438
00:25:05,560 --> 00:25:08,919
Speaker 1: he buries her. What do you think motivated him with

439
00:25:09,160 --> 00:25:13,119
Speaker 1: horace to literally display him on a public beach? So

440
00:25:13,280 --> 00:25:15,679
Speaker 1: someone was obviously going to find him. What do you

441
00:25:15,680 --> 00:25:17,200
Speaker 1: think happened in between?

442
00:25:18,200 --> 00:25:21,159
Speaker 2: It's funny because Katie is the only girl. All the

443
00:25:21,240 --> 00:25:24,360
Speaker 2: other ones were boys, and Katy I think was a

444
00:25:24,400 --> 00:25:28,560
Speaker 2: crime of opportunity. She sort of went to him, So

445
00:25:28,600 --> 00:25:30,919
Speaker 2: I'm not sure if this was kind of a spur

446
00:25:31,040 --> 00:25:34,159
Speaker 2: of the moment thing. You know, she just happened to

447
00:25:34,160 --> 00:25:36,639
Speaker 2: be there. He just happened to be there as well.

448
00:25:36,880 --> 00:25:39,400
Speaker 2: She just arrived, yeah.

449
00:25:39,200 --> 00:25:41,919
Speaker 1: I mean, and also her family knew where she was going.

450
00:25:42,280 --> 00:25:45,199
Speaker 1: So yeah, you're right, he would have had to have

451
00:25:45,280 --> 00:25:47,400
Speaker 1: covered that up because these other kids, he sort of.

452
00:25:47,400 --> 00:25:49,640
Speaker 2: Drew out and they were out, and.

453
00:25:49,560 --> 00:25:51,479
Speaker 1: It could have been anybody who had done it, but

454
00:25:52,000 --> 00:25:55,159
Speaker 1: with Katie it would have been immediate suspicion. Okay, so

455
00:25:55,800 --> 00:25:59,199
Speaker 1: he is a big suspect and they arrest him and

456
00:25:59,240 --> 00:26:00,399
Speaker 1: he's thirteen at the.

457
00:26:00,400 --> 00:26:03,960
Speaker 2: Time, he's older than that by now he's about fourteen

458
00:26:04,119 --> 00:26:06,280
Speaker 2: or so. Yeah, he's I mean, and now what do

459
00:26:06,359 --> 00:26:08,240
Speaker 2: you do with him? You know, he's a fourteen year

460
00:26:08,280 --> 00:26:11,920
Speaker 2: old boy who's committed and Katie no long Thereafter, Missus

461
00:26:11,960 --> 00:26:15,000
Speaker 2: Pomeroy sells the building and the man who buys it

462
00:26:15,080 --> 00:26:17,680
Speaker 2: starts to dig in the basement because there is kind

463
00:26:17,720 --> 00:26:21,040
Speaker 2: of a smell on it. What do they find Katie's body?

464
00:26:21,200 --> 00:26:23,920
Speaker 2: Don't they know that he's committed this crime as well?

465
00:26:24,359 --> 00:26:28,119
Speaker 1: Do you think Missus Palmeroy ever suspected that after his

466
00:26:28,280 --> 00:26:32,040
Speaker 1: release from the reform school that something was happening. Do

467
00:26:32,119 --> 00:26:35,919
Speaker 1: you think she sensed anything like, well, my kid is

468
00:26:35,960 --> 00:26:37,640
Speaker 1: not any better, he's worse.

469
00:26:38,119 --> 00:26:40,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, I do. She had to know early on. You

470
00:26:40,720 --> 00:26:44,040
Speaker 2: just don't go home and find these twisted birds in

471
00:26:44,400 --> 00:26:47,840
Speaker 2: your cage and think to yourself, a my child just

472
00:26:48,000 --> 00:26:51,520
Speaker 2: happened to be playing with these birds that I've cared for,

473
00:26:51,960 --> 00:26:54,480
Speaker 2: you know, for so long, and suddenly he strangles them.

474
00:26:54,560 --> 00:26:57,520
Speaker 2: And there is nothing wrong with this child of mine,

475
00:26:57,680 --> 00:26:59,560
Speaker 2: you know what I mean. She had to have known

476
00:26:59,680 --> 00:27:02,959
Speaker 2: early on when she decided to move that it was

477
00:27:03,200 --> 00:27:06,159
Speaker 2: him who was doing these things. Otherwise you wouldn't just

478
00:27:06,240 --> 00:27:09,159
Speaker 2: pick up and move your whole family somewhere else. She

479
00:27:09,240 --> 00:27:13,080
Speaker 2: had to have known all along. That's why people were

480
00:27:13,200 --> 00:27:16,640
Speaker 2: very upset with her that she didn't do something about it.

481
00:27:16,840 --> 00:27:18,840
Speaker 2: I mean, I don't know what would you do in

482
00:27:18,880 --> 00:27:22,200
Speaker 2: a situation like that. Do what you feel it's morally right,

483
00:27:22,320 --> 00:27:25,280
Speaker 2: it's legally right. What do you do with a child

484
00:27:25,400 --> 00:27:29,600
Speaker 2: that is yours and is committing such debeous crimes, especially

485
00:27:29,600 --> 00:27:32,720
Speaker 2: against children? Yes, I mean when do you stop being

486
00:27:32,760 --> 00:27:36,520
Speaker 2: a mother and start being a citizen worried about other people?

487
00:27:36,600 --> 00:27:40,080
Speaker 2: You know what I mean? Where do you turn for help?

488
00:27:40,240 --> 00:27:42,800
Speaker 2: People hate you. You don't have a husband, you don't

489
00:27:42,800 --> 00:27:46,120
Speaker 2: have a community, you don't have supports system, you don't

490
00:27:46,160 --> 00:27:48,879
Speaker 2: have a family. Where do you go for help? You

491
00:27:48,920 --> 00:27:52,800
Speaker 2: certainly can't turn to the internet. There is no Google

492
00:27:53,119 --> 00:27:55,960
Speaker 2: search engines. Where do you go?

493
00:27:56,480 --> 00:28:00,159
Speaker 1: Well, let's turn to his arrest. He's arrested. What to

494
00:28:00,640 --> 00:28:03,680
Speaker 1: the police in Boston say we should do with this kid?

495
00:28:03,760 --> 00:28:05,760
Speaker 1: Because this was unprecedented for them?

496
00:28:06,200 --> 00:28:09,280
Speaker 2: It was, and on his trial he was convicted and

497
00:28:09,560 --> 00:28:11,879
Speaker 2: a lot of people wanted him to die in the

498
00:28:11,920 --> 00:28:15,000
Speaker 2: middle of Boston. Comment. I mean, keep in minded, this

499
00:28:15,160 --> 00:28:19,080
Speaker 2: is the eighteen seventies, Boston wasn't kidding around. He was

500
00:28:19,119 --> 00:28:22,800
Speaker 2: put on trial, he was sentenced to die. And at

501
00:28:22,840 --> 00:28:25,879
Speaker 2: the time, do you want to put a teenager on

502
00:28:25,920 --> 00:28:28,560
Speaker 2: the gallows to die in the middle of Boston? Comment?

503
00:28:29,000 --> 00:28:31,080
Speaker 2: If this were your child, would you want to see

504
00:28:31,160 --> 00:28:33,399
Speaker 2: him die just like that? Do you want to be

505
00:28:33,520 --> 00:28:37,399
Speaker 2: known as the Commonwealth of Massachusetts the first date that

506
00:28:37,520 --> 00:28:40,760
Speaker 2: put a child, Because keep in mind that is horrible

507
00:28:40,760 --> 00:28:43,920
Speaker 2: as these crimes are, they were committed by a child

508
00:28:44,000 --> 00:28:46,480
Speaker 2: under the age of fifteen. Do you want to be

509
00:28:46,520 --> 00:28:49,040
Speaker 2: known as that state who does that? On the other hand,

510
00:28:49,040 --> 00:28:50,400
Speaker 2: what do you do with him? Well?

511
00:28:50,560 --> 00:28:54,760
Speaker 1: During the trial, did Jesse admit to anything? Did he

512
00:28:54,840 --> 00:28:56,720
Speaker 1: have a defense whatsoever? No?

513
00:28:56,840 --> 00:29:00,680
Speaker 2: The only thing he did was go to court and lacked.

514
00:29:00,840 --> 00:29:03,320
Speaker 2: The only thing he was smirking, He was playing, He

515
00:29:03,360 --> 00:29:06,360
Speaker 2: played with his buttons. He was just there. He didn't

516
00:29:06,360 --> 00:29:08,880
Speaker 2: admit to anything. He just listened to what people had

517
00:29:08,920 --> 00:29:13,560
Speaker 2: to say. And doctors said that he was a psychopath,

518
00:29:13,720 --> 00:29:17,080
Speaker 2: that he was sick. It wasn't like people were in

519
00:29:17,240 --> 00:29:20,239
Speaker 2: studying the human brain. It wasn't as if, you know,

520
00:29:20,360 --> 00:29:23,840
Speaker 2: there weren't studies done on criminals. The only difference was

521
00:29:23,880 --> 00:29:27,520
Speaker 2: that the criminals were older people who died. In London,

522
00:29:27,560 --> 00:29:31,720
Speaker 2: people were hung all the time, all older people compared

523
00:29:31,760 --> 00:29:35,800
Speaker 2: to him, children have never really committed this sort of thing.

524
00:29:36,160 --> 00:29:40,120
Speaker 2: He was such an unusual case. Still, it was sentenced

525
00:29:40,120 --> 00:29:43,760
Speaker 2: to die, and the governor just didn't have it and

526
00:29:43,840 --> 00:29:46,400
Speaker 2: it was hard to do that. So he was on

527
00:29:46,440 --> 00:29:51,280
Speaker 2: that road for two years until his sentence was commuted

528
00:29:51,320 --> 00:29:54,760
Speaker 2: to life in prison. I'm not sure there was the

529
00:29:54,840 --> 00:29:58,959
Speaker 2: better choice though, in solitary confinement. So it's not just

530
00:29:59,040 --> 00:30:01,680
Speaker 2: like he went to prison where he stayed for fifty

531
00:30:01,760 --> 00:30:05,719
Speaker 2: three years. He was also in solitary confinement for fifty

532
00:30:05,760 --> 00:30:09,040
Speaker 2: three years, so I mean, you don't place him to hang.

533
00:30:09,160 --> 00:30:12,640
Speaker 2: But at the same time, solitary confinement for someone I mean,

534
00:30:12,680 --> 00:30:15,680
Speaker 2: by the time he went to prison, he was sixteen

535
00:30:15,760 --> 00:30:18,480
Speaker 2: years old. You have a sixteen year old who's going

536
00:30:18,520 --> 00:30:21,600
Speaker 2: to go to prison for life. Not only that, he's

537
00:30:21,640 --> 00:30:24,680
Speaker 2: going to be in solitary confinement for the rest of

538
00:30:24,720 --> 00:30:27,280
Speaker 2: his days. Can you imagine that as well. I'm not

539
00:30:27,320 --> 00:30:31,240
Speaker 2: sure that that sentence is any better that heaven him die.

540
00:30:31,360 --> 00:30:34,520
Speaker 2: So a lot of people were outgravated by that. Which

541
00:30:34,560 --> 00:30:38,400
Speaker 2: is better to make him die or to leave him

542
00:30:38,400 --> 00:30:41,040
Speaker 2: in solitary confinement for the rest of his days.

543
00:30:41,280 --> 00:30:44,160
Speaker 1: Did he write, did he leave behind write any kind

544
00:30:44,160 --> 00:30:45,600
Speaker 1: of writing or anything like that.

545
00:30:45,880 --> 00:30:48,720
Speaker 2: He did. He was a very good writer. He read

546
00:30:48,800 --> 00:30:52,959
Speaker 2: tons of books, because eventually they were two jail cells

547
00:30:52,960 --> 00:30:56,200
Speaker 2: that he got. He wrote books, He wrote biographies. He

548
00:30:56,200 --> 00:30:59,440
Speaker 2: wrote an entire biography, and so he didn't think that

549
00:30:59,480 --> 00:31:02,000
Speaker 2: it was a pro operate for him to be in

550
00:31:02,080 --> 00:31:06,200
Speaker 2: solitary confinement. Of course, he wanted to look outside. He

551
00:31:06,280 --> 00:31:09,280
Speaker 2: wanted an entire pardon. Of course, you know, he wanted

552
00:31:09,280 --> 00:31:11,880
Speaker 2: to be pardoned, because he said that as he got older,

553
00:31:11,880 --> 00:31:13,920
Speaker 2: he got better. He said that the crimes that he

554
00:31:13,920 --> 00:31:16,560
Speaker 2: committed as a child were the crimes of a child.

555
00:31:17,200 --> 00:31:19,520
Speaker 2: The person he became as an adult had nothing to

556
00:31:19,560 --> 00:31:22,800
Speaker 2: do with what he had done as a child. I

557
00:31:22,840 --> 00:31:25,520
Speaker 2: actually don't believe that. Because he was a crafty old guy.

558
00:31:25,880 --> 00:31:29,640
Speaker 2: He tried to escape, and he did very well. You know,

559
00:31:29,800 --> 00:31:33,320
Speaker 2: he managed to get out of his cell many many times.

560
00:31:33,720 --> 00:31:35,840
Speaker 2: His wardens said that he was a real pain in

561
00:31:35,840 --> 00:31:39,520
Speaker 2: the ass because he managed to escape from his cells

562
00:31:39,680 --> 00:31:42,480
Speaker 2: at least a half a dozen times. One time he

563
00:31:42,560 --> 00:31:46,160
Speaker 2: actually had almost made it out until a cat gave

564
00:31:46,240 --> 00:31:48,840
Speaker 2: him away. A cat that he had in his cell,

565
00:31:49,280 --> 00:31:52,360
Speaker 2: got spooked by a noise that he made, and I

566
00:31:52,360 --> 00:31:55,640
Speaker 2: awoke the warden, and so he was caught. He never

567
00:31:55,680 --> 00:31:59,560
Speaker 2: made it outside of the walls of the prison, and

568
00:31:59,600 --> 00:32:02,680
Speaker 2: you think to yourself, what could you possibly do? Now?

569
00:32:03,000 --> 00:32:05,920
Speaker 2: Where are you going? He was never pardoned. He went

570
00:32:06,000 --> 00:32:09,840
Speaker 2: before the pardon committee several times, he was never given

571
00:32:09,880 --> 00:32:11,960
Speaker 2: a pardon. At the end of his life, when he

572
00:32:12,040 --> 00:32:15,960
Speaker 2: was almost seventy, he was transferred to a hospital because

573
00:32:16,000 --> 00:32:19,239
Speaker 2: he got sick. But he wasn't happy with that. He

574
00:32:19,360 --> 00:32:21,920
Speaker 2: just wanted to get out. He wanted to get out,

575
00:32:22,120 --> 00:32:23,480
Speaker 2: but by the name was too late.

576
00:32:23,960 --> 00:32:27,160
Speaker 1: Did his brother Charles or his mother Ruth Anne come

577
00:32:27,200 --> 00:32:28,080
Speaker 1: and to visit him ever?

578
00:32:28,200 --> 00:32:31,960
Speaker 2: Or was that even allowed his mother. You've got to

579
00:32:32,000 --> 00:32:34,120
Speaker 2: give it to her. His mother used to bring him

580
00:32:34,160 --> 00:32:36,600
Speaker 2: little files and little things to try and help him

581
00:32:36,600 --> 00:32:39,360
Speaker 2: to get out. Oh gosh, ruth Anne, up until she

582
00:32:39,520 --> 00:32:41,880
Speaker 2: died herself, she used to help him. You know. She

583
00:32:42,000 --> 00:32:44,280
Speaker 2: used to bring him food all the time. And in

584
00:32:44,360 --> 00:32:48,000
Speaker 2: that food package she used to have little knives. That

585
00:32:48,120 --> 00:32:51,160
Speaker 2: really didn't endear her to other people as well. It's

586
00:32:51,240 --> 00:32:53,640
Speaker 2: kind of like, you know, what he has done, what

587
00:32:53,680 --> 00:32:56,480
Speaker 2: do you expect that he's going to do once he

588
00:32:56,560 --> 00:32:58,600
Speaker 2: gets out, you know, do you really think he's going

589
00:32:58,600 --> 00:33:01,960
Speaker 2: to change? I actually thought that the time that he

590
00:33:02,080 --> 00:33:05,800
Speaker 2: had in there, you know, didn't mellow him at all, because,

591
00:33:05,920 --> 00:33:08,800
Speaker 2: if anything, if the reform school when he was a

592
00:33:08,840 --> 00:33:13,200
Speaker 2: youngster was any indication piman solitary confinement now that he

593
00:33:13,280 --> 00:33:16,280
Speaker 2: was an adult, was only going to make him angrier

594
00:33:16,920 --> 00:33:19,600
Speaker 2: and a lot more kind of resentful, you know what

595
00:33:19,680 --> 00:33:23,480
Speaker 2: I mean. I mean, he was growing behind solitary confinement.

596
00:33:23,680 --> 00:33:25,960
Speaker 2: Can you imagine what that does to a person to

597
00:33:26,080 --> 00:33:28,960
Speaker 2: kind of embitter him even more? And she was trying

598
00:33:29,000 --> 00:33:32,240
Speaker 2: to help him to escape. What were her expectations that

599
00:33:32,320 --> 00:33:34,400
Speaker 2: he was going to mellow out and go really to

600
00:33:34,560 --> 00:33:36,760
Speaker 2: Maine and become a farmer and grotimators.

601
00:33:37,240 --> 00:33:41,040
Speaker 1: Do you think that ruth Ann blamed herself and of

602
00:33:41,040 --> 00:33:43,840
Speaker 1: course her husband for all of this or did you

603
00:33:43,880 --> 00:33:47,560
Speaker 1: think that it was nature not nurture from her point

604
00:33:47,560 --> 00:33:50,680
Speaker 1: of view of what made Jesse Pomeroy like this.

605
00:33:51,120 --> 00:33:53,840
Speaker 2: I don't think she blamed herself. If anything, I think

606
00:33:53,920 --> 00:33:56,640
Speaker 2: she felt that she had tried to help him. But

607
00:33:56,680 --> 00:33:59,440
Speaker 2: I do think she blamed her husband. She blamed the teachers,

608
00:34:00,000 --> 00:34:05,360
Speaker 2: blamed the students, She blamed everybody else but herself. I

609
00:34:05,360 --> 00:34:10,120
Speaker 2: don't think she saw herself as having moved houses as

610
00:34:10,239 --> 00:34:14,200
Speaker 2: an indication that maybe she could have stopped things. If anything,

611
00:34:14,520 --> 00:34:17,279
Speaker 2: she tried to help her son. No, I don't think

612
00:34:17,360 --> 00:34:20,680
Speaker 2: she saw it as being at fault at all. No,

613
00:34:21,200 --> 00:34:23,720
Speaker 2: but her husband would have been at fault. Of course.

614
00:34:24,600 --> 00:34:28,839
Speaker 1: How did ultimately his life end? Jesse Palmeroy after all

615
00:34:28,880 --> 00:34:29,600
Speaker 1: of this, he.

616
00:34:29,560 --> 00:34:32,879
Speaker 2: Lived to a very old age. Yes, I mean in

617
00:34:33,000 --> 00:34:36,400
Speaker 2: nineteen twenty nine he was moved. He finally left the

618
00:34:36,440 --> 00:34:39,520
Speaker 2: state prison and he was given a reprieve to go

619
00:34:39,680 --> 00:34:44,719
Speaker 2: to the Bridgewater State Hospital because he was getting up

620
00:34:44,719 --> 00:34:47,400
Speaker 2: there in age and he wasn't feeling very well. He

621
00:34:47,560 --> 00:34:49,960
Speaker 2: was given a place where he could be a little

622
00:34:49,960 --> 00:34:52,719
Speaker 2: bit more I wouldn't say free, but have a little

623
00:34:52,719 --> 00:34:56,960
Speaker 2: bit more freedom to roam around, to commune with other people,

624
00:34:57,200 --> 00:35:00,920
Speaker 2: to be taken care of. But she wasn't very because,

625
00:35:01,280 --> 00:35:03,560
Speaker 2: believe it or not, in the state prison he had

626
00:35:03,680 --> 00:35:07,719
Speaker 2: his own two rooms with his books, his pens and

627
00:35:07,760 --> 00:35:10,560
Speaker 2: things like that. At the infirmary, now he was going

628
00:35:10,640 --> 00:35:13,480
Speaker 2: to be taken care of. He could roam around the

629
00:35:13,560 --> 00:35:18,560
Speaker 2: area outside, he could make new friends. Still wasn't happy.

630
00:35:18,960 --> 00:35:22,400
Speaker 2: He still wanted to have total freedom to move around

631
00:35:22,760 --> 00:35:25,840
Speaker 2: lucky he wanted. Even though he died at a pretty

632
00:35:26,040 --> 00:35:28,600
Speaker 2: good age when he got out to go to the

633
00:35:28,640 --> 00:35:32,160
Speaker 2: state infirmary, he was sixty eight, for all intents and purposes,

634
00:35:32,320 --> 00:35:33,800
Speaker 2: he wasn't old.

635
00:35:33,920 --> 00:35:34,240
Speaker 3: Old.

636
00:35:34,719 --> 00:35:37,279
Speaker 2: He still felt that he could have had a few

637
00:35:37,320 --> 00:35:40,400
Speaker 2: good years left, and he wanted to spend those years

638
00:35:40,480 --> 00:35:43,239
Speaker 2: on his own. He didn't want to be supervised in

639
00:35:43,280 --> 00:35:46,600
Speaker 2: any way, shape or form. He wanted to move. He

640
00:35:46,680 --> 00:35:49,279
Speaker 2: wanted to have a farm, he said. He wanted to

641
00:35:49,360 --> 00:35:52,640
Speaker 2: become a farmer. He wanted to grow things. Honey, was

642
00:35:52,680 --> 00:35:55,120
Speaker 2: it true? That's what he said, But he said a

643
00:35:55,120 --> 00:35:57,839
Speaker 2: lot of things throughout his life. Didn't necessarily mean that

644
00:35:58,000 --> 00:36:00,840
Speaker 2: those were drow God only knows what he wanted to do.

645
00:36:01,440 --> 00:36:05,040
Speaker 2: He was still in fairly decent health. I mean, when

646
00:36:05,080 --> 00:36:07,719
Speaker 2: he was younger, he could tell children that he was

647
00:36:07,840 --> 00:36:09,799
Speaker 2: just a boy that could go away together. Now he

648
00:36:09,840 --> 00:36:12,839
Speaker 2: was an older man. Would you trust an older man?

649
00:36:13,400 --> 00:36:17,080
Speaker 2: Was his instinct to kill or to abuse children still there?

650
00:36:17,680 --> 00:36:21,919
Speaker 2: I don't know. Maybe probably yes, I would guess probably yes. Yeah.

651
00:36:22,040 --> 00:36:27,040
Speaker 1: Okay, So what is at the end of this his life?

652
00:36:27,320 --> 00:36:28,960
Speaker 1: What do you think is the thing that we can

653
00:36:29,080 --> 00:36:32,799
Speaker 1: learn the most from the story of Jesse Palmroy and

654
00:36:32,840 --> 00:36:36,080
Speaker 1: the tragedy of a young boy who you said was

655
00:36:36,360 --> 00:36:41,160
Speaker 1: very intelligent, but something was definitely wrong, whether it was

656
00:36:41,320 --> 00:36:45,400
Speaker 1: nature nurture both, something happened and he turned into a

657
00:36:45,520 --> 00:36:49,319
Speaker 1: monster who probably was unlikely reformed.

658
00:36:49,880 --> 00:36:52,799
Speaker 3: What do you think the lesson for us is? The

659
00:36:52,960 --> 00:36:57,279
Speaker 3: lesson for me was never take people for granted. I mean,

660
00:36:57,440 --> 00:37:00,440
Speaker 3: never underestimate children if you think that there is a

661
00:37:00,520 --> 00:37:04,680
Speaker 3: problem there. I think a lot of people underestimated how

662
00:37:04,840 --> 00:37:09,600
Speaker 3: intelligent and conniving he was because even his own mother,

663
00:37:09,920 --> 00:37:13,239
Speaker 3: and I think at the time people were having a

664
00:37:13,280 --> 00:37:16,360
Speaker 3: difficult time believing that a child was committing the crimes

665
00:37:16,400 --> 00:37:19,239
Speaker 3: that he was doing, and I think there was a

666
00:37:19,360 --> 00:37:23,360
Speaker 3: huge mistake on their part. People didn't believe that someone

667
00:37:23,480 --> 00:37:26,439
Speaker 3: so young could be so conniving. That's not to say

668
00:37:26,480 --> 00:37:29,399
Speaker 3: that children have the capacity, you know what I mean,

669
00:37:29,440 --> 00:37:33,360
Speaker 3: to do horrible things, but it doesn't hurt you. You know,

670
00:37:33,360 --> 00:37:35,239
Speaker 3: if you see a problem, to just take care of

671
00:37:35,280 --> 00:37:37,480
Speaker 3: it and try and lip it in the butt. Early

672
00:37:37,560 --> 00:37:39,080
Speaker 3: on you mentioned.

673
00:37:38,719 --> 00:37:42,600
Speaker 2: That sixty year old boy, and it's like, yes, seek

674
00:37:42,680 --> 00:37:45,480
Speaker 2: help if you think that help is needed. Also, if

675
00:37:45,520 --> 00:37:48,640
Speaker 2: you think that there is a problem community Missus Palmer

676
00:37:48,840 --> 00:37:52,359
Speaker 2: didn't have anybody to rely on, and for me, there

677
00:37:52,400 --> 00:37:56,360
Speaker 2: was a huge, huge red flag. She was by herself,

678
00:37:56,560 --> 00:38:00,399
Speaker 2: she didn't have anybody to seek out help from. Help

679
00:38:00,480 --> 00:38:03,799
Speaker 2: is important. Also, the idea that you don't really know

680
00:38:04,040 --> 00:38:08,279
Speaker 2: whether it is nurture or nature. I've tried to all

681
00:38:08,400 --> 00:38:11,200
Speaker 2: my books deal with that kind of situation. You know.

682
00:38:11,560 --> 00:38:15,800
Speaker 2: My first book was about Frankenstein. Whether it was nurturing

683
00:38:16,120 --> 00:38:19,320
Speaker 2: or nature that made out the creature. And I'm still

684
00:38:19,360 --> 00:38:24,720
Speaker 2: seeking out those questions. We are because of nature or nurturing.

685
00:38:24,840 --> 00:38:28,480
Speaker 2: And even in Jesse Pomeroy, we don't really know, you know,

686
00:38:29,040 --> 00:38:32,200
Speaker 2: was it because he was born that way or because

687
00:38:32,360 --> 00:38:35,560
Speaker 2: he was made that way? He had a brother, Charles,

688
00:38:35,640 --> 00:38:38,160
Speaker 2: turned out to be quite fine. He lived in the

689
00:38:38,200 --> 00:38:42,400
Speaker 2: same environment. He also came out from a situation from

690
00:38:42,440 --> 00:38:46,120
Speaker 2: a dysfunctional family. Still, he married, he had children. He

691
00:38:46,200 --> 00:38:49,160
Speaker 2: may not have been rich, but he still had a

692
00:38:49,160 --> 00:38:52,960
Speaker 2: fairly decent life. Granted, he was not picked on, he

693
00:38:53,080 --> 00:38:56,440
Speaker 2: was not bullied, he was not hurt by his father.

694
00:38:56,760 --> 00:39:00,319
Speaker 2: So is that what made Jesse who he was? Who knows?

695
00:39:09,880 --> 00:39:12,799
Speaker 1: If you love historical true crime stories, check out the

696
00:39:12,880 --> 00:39:15,920
Speaker 1: audio versions of my books The Ghost Club, All that

697
00:39:16,080 --> 00:39:19,440
Speaker 1: is Wicked and American Sherlock. This has been an exactly

698
00:39:19,600 --> 00:39:23,600
Speaker 1: right production. Our senior producer is Alexis a Morosi. Our

699
00:39:23,640 --> 00:39:28,799
Speaker 1: associate producer is Christina Chamberlain. Our mixing engineer is Ben Tolliday.

700
00:39:29,040 --> 00:39:33,080
Speaker 1: Curtis Heath is our composer. Artwork by Nick Toga. Executive

701
00:39:33,120 --> 00:39:37,520
Speaker 1: produced by Georgia Hardstark, Karen Kilgarriff and Danielle Kramer. Follow

702
00:39:37,560 --> 00:39:41,440
Speaker 1: Wicked Words on Instagram and Facebook at tenfold more Wicked

703
00:39:41,680 --> 00:39:44,239
Speaker 1: and on Twitter at tenfold more. And if you know

704
00:39:44,280 --> 00:39:46,719
Speaker 1: of a historical crime that could use some attention from

705
00:39:46,760 --> 00:39:50,200
Speaker 1: the crew at tenfold more Wicked, email us at info

706
00:39:50,280 --> 00:39:54,360
Speaker 1: at Tenfoldmorewicked dot com. We'll also take your suggestions for

707
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Speaker 1: true crime authors for Wicked Words. Ah