Speaker 1: Now here's a highlight from Coast to Coast AM on iHeartRadio.
Speaker 2: And welcome back to Coast to Coast George Norrieback with
Speaker 2: doctor Christopher Kerr. His website is linked up at Coast
Speaker 2: to coastam dot com. Chris, of the people who are
Speaker 2: at the dying stage, what generally is taking them down?
Speaker 2: What affliction do they have? Is it cancer?
Speaker 3: Yeah? It was pretty representative across the board. Cancer is
Speaker 3: certainly a number, but a lot of heart and lung
Speaker 3: disease as well, and more and more we're seeing people
Speaker 3: live longer with multiple comer abidities. But yes, cancer is
Speaker 3: highly represented.
Speaker 2: Have you ever seen a patient pull out of it
Speaker 2: completely where everybody thought that including them, that they were
Speaker 2: going to die and they still kept going.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I've seen a few in my life. I think
Speaker 3: that oftentimes there was a misdiagnosis, but there are certainly
Speaker 3: kind of unexplainable changes in the trajectory of certain people's illness.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Explain how they find love and insight with this
Speaker 2: pre death situation that comes to them in dreams and visions?
Speaker 2: How does that come as what it's it?
Speaker 3: I think a couple of things are important. One is there.
Speaker 3: They describe these experiences as virtual or lived. They're they're
Speaker 3: not merely memories. So so it has this lived feeling
Speaker 3: to it. And with that because of the themes they're
Speaker 3: they're they're reconnecting with people they loved, a parent, a
Speaker 3: child that they they they feel a sense of being restored,
Speaker 3: of feeling lost love that kind of returns to them,
Speaker 3: of being put back together, and and that's that's really
Speaker 3: the meaning of it.
Speaker 2: Is there anything religious about this at all? With them?
Speaker 3: You know, this is something we wrestled with, but others
Speaker 3: have reported the same thing. We don't see a lot
Speaker 3: of reference to the symbols of religion, but certainly with
Speaker 3: the tenets of the faith. So if the tenants of faith,
Speaker 3: our love, and forgiveness, those are those are the overarching themes.
Speaker 2: The family members, the people who of course are related
Speaker 2: to the person who's dying, how do they react with
Speaker 2: all of this.
Speaker 3: So we've done two studies involving about seven hundred and
Speaker 3: fifty breed family members, and the best way to say
Speaker 3: it is that what's good for the patient is also
Speaker 3: good for their loved one. I how people leave us
Speaker 3: matters whether we see death as something just as a
Speaker 3: physical lessening or suffering, or whether we see something else
Speaker 3: that's not as empty and as limiting. I think that
Speaker 3: you know, if you have two partners and someone's dying
Speaker 3: in the bed and they lost a child decades earlier,
Speaker 3: in the person in the beds referencing that child, that
Speaker 3: very much changes how death is viewed. Rather than something
Speaker 3: that's empty, it's it's it's it's full of something with meaning.
Speaker 3: And that's what our surveys showed. In fact, we looked
Speaker 3: at an instrument that measures how people grieve in healthy
Speaker 3: versus unhealthy ways, and people who witness these experiences absolutely
Speaker 3: remembered differently, moved on differently, were able to recall differently.
Speaker 3: So it's it's a very healthy thing.
Speaker 2: Chris, have you videotaped many of the patients?
Speaker 3: Yeah, we have. It was as mentioned, it was meant
Speaker 3: for doctors, and we knew everyone would have this preconceived
Speaker 3: bias about what a dying patient looked like, right, that
Speaker 3: they would be feeble minded, confused, So we were very
Speaker 3: deliberative in filming patients. And it's kind of funny because
Speaker 3: it was meant for physicians and lectures and it ended
Speaker 3: up as part of a Netflix documentaries and a PBS documentary.
Speaker 2: Do most of the people who are at the dying
Speaker 2: stage think that there's life after death?
Speaker 3: It's a great question, and we were really careful not
Speaker 3: to delve into the interpretation of this. So we were
Speaker 3: just wanted to take their words and experiences and transcribe it,
Speaker 3: because you could go to a number of directions, right
Speaker 3: you go towards religion, after life, paranormal, et cetera. I
Speaker 3: think what's most important is they didn't get a sense
Speaker 3: of finality. They don't talk in those terms. They don't
Speaker 3: talk in terms of fear. I guess the best way
Speaker 3: to say it is there's something within the dying. It's
Speaker 3: actually life affirming, So it doesn't deny the dyings occurring,
Speaker 3: but rather instead it affirms the life that was led.
Speaker 2: Knowing what you know what generally would be more acceptable
Speaker 2: to be knowing you're dying and you'd have a few
Speaker 2: weeks to prepare, you know, through these insights, or to
Speaker 2: somebody who just dies suddenly and they're gone. Oh.
Speaker 3: I prefer would prefer the former for a few reasons.
Speaker 3: I think it's a completely different injury to leave people abruptly. Yeah,
Speaker 3: I think that there's important living to do. In the
Speaker 3: dying process. I think we see some of the best
Speaker 3: of our human nature. I see, we see people who
Speaker 3: may not have hope for cure, but their hope transitions
Speaker 3: to other people. There's gestures of love, there's selflessness, selflessness.
Speaker 3: So I think that it's meant to be that way,
Speaker 3: and that's so profound. Living goes and we see this
Speaker 3: in caregiving. You know, people are going along with their
Speaker 3: lives and all of a sudden they stop and the
Speaker 3: adult child is now caring for their parents who needs them.
Speaker 3: So we see, we see incredible acts of kindness, of compassion,
Speaker 3: and you know what our caregivers will say is it's
Speaker 3: kind of the best hardest thing they ever did. So
Speaker 3: I think depriving people of all of that, of of
Speaker 3: of of saying what needs to be said, of sharing
Speaker 3: the very special moments together, of remembrance, I think that's
Speaker 3: really important. So yeah, no, I think, I think. I
Speaker 3: think it's much harder to die suddenly it leaves a
Speaker 3: different wound.
Speaker 2: What have you learned by this process that you didn't
Speaker 2: know prior to.
Speaker 3: I think I you know, I trained in a very
Speaker 3: traditional medical model, and I saw dying as almost medical failure,
Speaker 3: as a problem to solve, and I looked at it
Speaker 3: in terms of organ function rather than what it really is,
Speaker 3: a very human event and a closing of a life.
Speaker 3: I certainly didn't start with a bias towards trying to
Speaker 3: understand or appreciate the spiritual aspects of living and dying.
Speaker 3: And I think, you know, you can't come out of
Speaker 3: this without being very moved by all that. I think
Speaker 3: there's a better story. I think that I'm just so
Speaker 3: impressed with how people do this and what they're capable of.
Speaker 3: So I learned a lot.
Speaker 2: Do any of those that are ready to die talk
Speaker 2: about being visited by other we had relatives or family
Speaker 2: members to kind of comfort them.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's the majority of the reports. We get far
Speaker 3: and away, So we ask people on a menu list,
Speaker 3: you know, pick what it is you're seeing and far
Speaker 3: and away. And that was actually the most predictive variable
Speaker 3: of impending death. So not only do the frequencies of
Speaker 3: these pre death dreams and visions increases people get close
Speaker 3: to death, but most importantly, they focus on specifically on
Speaker 3: people who they've loved and lost, and when we ask
Speaker 3: them to measure comfort, as in terms of what they
Speaker 3: were seeing. Seeing the deceased gave them the greatest comfort,
Speaker 3: and they're just some fascinating features. And this comes out
Speaker 3: in our videos. You know, very little is said between
Speaker 3: the dreamer and the person in the dream, but everything
Speaker 3: seems to be understood or implied, you know. So we
Speaker 3: see ninety five year old men who've lost their mother
Speaker 3: when they were five. You know, it's it's it's her
Speaker 3: presence that they feel, Smell the perfume, the cooking in
Speaker 3: the kitchen, so all this remembrance is again this idea
Speaker 3: being put back together. So seeing the deseases overwhelmingly comfortable, comforting,
Speaker 3: highly predictive of impending death.
Speaker 2: What can you conclude by that, the fact that they
Speaker 2: see their loved ones who are passed on.
Speaker 3: I think it's a great question. I think where I
Speaker 3: end up is this. I think I'm impressed that time
Speaker 3: and distance seem to kind of vanish, and that those
Speaker 3: who we've loved, who have been so formative to us
Speaker 3: are never really gone. They're still accessible, they're still proximate
Speaker 3: to us, and and and the depth of that feeling
Speaker 3: doesn't vanish. It does when we're well, And it's a
Speaker 3: distant memory, but not towards the end. It seems to
Speaker 3: come back to people in a very profound way.
Speaker 2: Does the age chris of the person who's dying have
Speaker 2: anything to do with how they react?
Speaker 3: Very much. There's absolutely a difference between people whose lives
Speaker 3: are kind of unfinished. So somebody who has young children
Speaker 3: when others are dependent on you, I think that that's
Speaker 3: a different burden as to oppose to somebody who's their
Speaker 3: ninth decade, who's tired, who many of the people who
Speaker 3: they've loved have died, whose quality of life is diminished.
Speaker 3: There's a different level of ease and grace. So yeah,
Speaker 3: very different.
Speaker 2: Do you see a difference between people with various ailments
Speaker 2: dementia versus cancer or anything like that.
Speaker 3: It's really interesting people who are kind of neuro different,
Speaker 3: such as dementia, they'll often do this in very interesting ways.
Speaker 3: You know. We have a fascinating video of a daughter
Speaker 3: whose mother was very advanced to mention a dementia unit actually,
Speaker 3: and towards the end of her life her husband had
Speaker 3: predeceased her, and towards the end of her life, every
Speaker 3: time she closed her eyes, she would relive the love
Speaker 3: that she shared with her husband in a way that
Speaker 3: he was experienced. So the daughter would go see her
Speaker 3: demented mother and she'd just be full of life and
Speaker 3: love and laughter. And she had a foot more in
Speaker 3: that world with her deceased husband. And towards the end,
Speaker 3: we lived near Niagara Falls, the wedding capital, and so
Speaker 3: towards the end, the woman, the mother with dementia, is
Speaker 3: caught trying to leave the building. This is days before death,
Speaker 3: because she was trying to get to her husband because
Speaker 3: it was her wedding day. So again the most meaningful
Speaker 3: parts of living had come to her. And what's fascinating
Speaker 3: is where you would expect escalating kind of psychological distress from,
Speaker 3: you know, worsening physical conditions, she's dying. Instead, she's feeling
Speaker 3: reclaimed love. And of course the effect is had on
Speaker 3: the daughter was immense, because what this tends to do
Speaker 3: is connect us to one another, daughter to mother, to
Speaker 3: deceased father, so that lives, whether they're living or dead,
Speaker 3: are remain interwoven because they kind of returned to them.
Speaker 2: What did you learn about this that you did not
Speaker 2: know before?
Speaker 3: Oh? I again, I thought as a physician, I thought
Speaker 3: of dying in terms of in physical dimensions, without really
Speaker 3: any appreciation that the patient. The view from the bed
Speaker 3: was different. I was looking at a body, and yes
Speaker 3: I was concerned whether there was pain or nausea, But
Speaker 3: I didn't have an appreciation that the person who's dying
Speaker 3: had a view and a perspective and an experience and
Speaker 3: an inner experience that really I would have no appreciation of.
Speaker 3: And what was fascinating I think what got me truly
Speaker 3: interested in this. I was almost off put by it
Speaker 3: at the beginning. I don't I'm not naturally bent towards
Speaker 3: this stuff. But what was so undeniable was that it
Speaker 3: was clearly so therapeutic for people, and so who was
Speaker 3: I to discount it or get stuck on where does
Speaker 3: it come from? You know, where's the source of this?
Speaker 3: I think what ultimately matters is not that I understand it,
Speaker 3: but that it matters to our patients.
Speaker 2: How many die without pain?
Speaker 3: Christopher, Oh, vast majority of our patients die without pain.
Speaker 3: Pain is probably the if you were told, for example,
Speaker 3: you had a terminal illness. I think one of the intuitively, instinctly,
Speaker 3: one of our mind immediately goes to fear, for fear
Speaker 3: of suffering. But nature takes care of a lot of us,
Speaker 3: so there's not many pains that we don't get the
Speaker 3: upper hand on, and a lot of the pains take
Speaker 3: care of themselves. You know, people who have pain getting
Speaker 3: around are now bed bound, etc. I think what we
Speaker 3: see more of is confusional states delirium than we do
Speaker 3: physical pain that we can't manage.
Speaker 2: If you were to do your studies over, is there
Speaker 2: anything you would alter or would you keep the same?
Speaker 3: Yeah? No, I would, and I think we're doing that now.
Speaker 3: I think we would ask better questions, deeper questions, so
Speaker 3: you know, what do these experience? How do these experience
Speaker 3: inform you? What does this change, for example, about what
Speaker 3: you think about dying or what goes beyond death. So
Speaker 3: you tried to get a better understanding of how the
Speaker 3: patient makes sense of this. We did a really interesting
Speaker 3: study where we looked at there's a scale of measurement
Speaker 3: for post traumatic growth, So the idea that you can
Speaker 3: be in a negative experience like war but still have
Speaker 3: there's positive experience and growth in it, for example, friendships
Speaker 3: that from the camaraderie being in war, And we looked
Speaker 3: at that with dying patients who are having these experience,
Speaker 3: and it was fascinating. They did show growth, So even
Speaker 3: though they're diminishing and fading from us, they're growing and adapting,
Speaker 3: gaining insights largely from these experiences. So I think that's fascinating.
Speaker 3: So I think the meaningfulness having the patient to find
Speaker 3: that for us becomes very important. And that's across the board.
Speaker 3: So what does this mean, for example, for your religious convictions,
Speaker 3: your thoughts on continued consciousness, those sort of things.
Speaker 2: Were you shocked by any of the results.
Speaker 3: Yeah, almost all of them. I was. I continue to
Speaker 3: be blown away by how the people can recall with
Speaker 3: such vividness earlier experiences that might otherwise be lost.
Speaker 2: I get it.
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