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Speaker 1: Pushkin.

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Speaker 2: Hello, Hi, nice to see you. Thank you for doing this.

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Speaker 3: Nice to see you too, Thanks for doing this with this.

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Speaker 2: Hey guys, it's Khalila. The Heavyweight team is hard at

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Speaker 2: work on some episode updates for later this spring, as

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Speaker 2: well as a brand new season which will be coming

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Speaker 2: later this fall. But in the meantime, we wanted to

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Speaker 2: wet your whistles, so to speak, with another show that

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Speaker 2: we really respect and enjoy. It's called Death, Sex and Money.

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Speaker 2: It's a show about difficult and often awkward topics like

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Speaker 2: you know, the stuff and the title Death, Sex and Money.

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Speaker 2: And recently I spoke with the show's host, Anna Sale.

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Speaker 2: I liked talking with Anna. She's a good listener, unlike

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Speaker 2: our show's host, who sometimes when I'm talking to him,

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Speaker 2: gets this gleazed look in his eyes and I know

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Speaker 2: he's just thinking about sandwich the last time I talked

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Speaker 2: to Anna. Both of our shows have been canceled by

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Speaker 2: their longtime networks, but look at us now, both back

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Speaker 2: in action making a victorious return to your podcatcher. You

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Speaker 2: also have recently been repotted to a new home.

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Speaker 3: Repotted.

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Speaker 2: How's that going?

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Speaker 4: You know?

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Speaker 3: I hope it feels for you like it feels for us.

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Speaker 3: It's felt wonderful at our new home at Slate. We

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Speaker 3: were used to be at WNYC. And having that kind

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Speaker 3: of big leap over the question of like do we

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Speaker 3: get to still do this? I think has made us

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Speaker 3: just it feels really fun. It feels more fun, and

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Speaker 3: I feel like I'm a kid making my own zine

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Speaker 3: in my back bedroom. Likely no, but I get to

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Speaker 3: make this and it's my job.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I do feel the same. It like really makes

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Speaker 2: me value the good things about this workplace. And then

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Speaker 2: also just to be like, yeah, I can't believe we

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Speaker 2: get to make this show. Yeah, Okay, so we're going

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Speaker 2: to run one of your episodes today. It is about

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Speaker 2: beauty interventions of all levels.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, because you know, the conversations about what we do

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Speaker 3: to change the way we look, they sort of happen

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Speaker 3: in these silos. There's like the makeup corner, the skincare corner,

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Speaker 3: the GLP one corner, though, like I don't know, orthodontics corner.

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Speaker 3: If you've got kids who are in middle school, and

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Speaker 3: so to just kind of look at it as a

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Speaker 3: whole universe, wrinkles and teeth and balding and nose shape,

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Speaker 3: it churned up a lot for lots of different people.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I just really loved it. I was really impressed

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Speaker 2: with the way that you all handled it. I think

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Speaker 2: like often in these conversations it's easy to sort of

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Speaker 2: strip the nuance out of stuff, and I appreciated that

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Speaker 2: you did not do that and sort of just let

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Speaker 2: all the contradictions and complicated feelings exist.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. I mean I'm all over the place on this

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Speaker 3: stuff because I I will like be in Wyoming, where

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Speaker 3: I spend time, and there's all these women with these

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Speaker 3: deep grooves in their face and they have long, like

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Speaker 3: white braids, and I'm like, that's how I'm going to age.

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Speaker 3: And then I come back to the Bay Area and

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Speaker 3: I'm like, oh, I think that I should make a

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Speaker 3: botox appoint me.

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Speaker 5: To know, I hear you.

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Speaker 3: So I am very I sympathize with the people with

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Speaker 3: mixed feelings because I am not fixed on this stuff.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, especially because I feel like so much of that

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Speaker 2: stripping down or assumption comes out of like a defensiveness

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Speaker 2: about like your own insecurities, you know.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, Also the way that we identify, Like for me

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Speaker 3: being a woman in my mid forties, like what sort

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Speaker 3: of feminism. Am I gonna like embrace for myself? What

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Speaker 3: do I want to demonstrate for my kids? What are

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Speaker 3: the judgments that I'm bringing to other people's choices? Or

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Speaker 3: what am I withholding from myself because I think it

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Speaker 3: would seem like I was too something if I pursued.

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Speaker 3: I don't know, like if I just got my eyebrows

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Speaker 3: better shaped more regularly, Like why do I have shame

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Speaker 3: about thinking that might be important?

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Speaker 2: You know, as you're saying that, what's ridiculous is I

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Speaker 2: do get my eyebrows done regularly, and I have bangs

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Speaker 2: so like you can't even see them. But still I'm like,

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Speaker 2: I don't know when they look really shaggy. I just

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Speaker 2: don't like it.

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Speaker 3: Well, good for you, it really does open up your

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Speaker 3: face your eyebrows or shape.

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Speaker 2: Yes, it does.

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Speaker 3: Great.

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Speaker 2: Let's listen to the episode and if you like it,

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Speaker 2: which I'm sure you will, then listen to the rest

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Speaker 2: of Death, Sex, and Money anywhere you get your podcasts.

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Speaker 3: How do you feel about the way you look and

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Speaker 3: how do you feel about whether you should do something

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Speaker 3: to change it?

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Speaker 6: Sure?

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Speaker 3: What a question. For the last several months we have

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Speaker 3: been asking you our listeners, to tell us stories about

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Speaker 3: your beauty interventions, what you've decided to invest time and

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Speaker 3: money in, like plastic surgery, elaborate skincare routines, fillers, botox,

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Speaker 3: things to look younger or hotter or quote unquote healthier.

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Speaker 3: Or maybe you are one of those listeners who is

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Speaker 3: clear that big interventions are a bridge too far for you.

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Speaker 3: Plastic surgery no. And also you've decided taking glp ones

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Speaker 3: or using hair dye means participating in cultural ideals that

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Speaker 3: you would rather reject. But what do you feel about

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Speaker 3: teeth straightening or even that nice thick face cream at

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Speaker 3: the drug store. When you're deciding to make an investment

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Speaker 3: for your looks, which part is for you and which

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Speaker 3: part is trying to control how the rest of us

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Speaker 3: treat you. Conventionally, attractive people make more money and are

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Speaker 3: treated better by teachers and law enforcement, and we live

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Speaker 3: in a time where social media's broad reach is narrowing

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Speaker 3: what we consider beautiful. In our Slate Plus episode this week,

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Speaker 3: we get into social media even more. I talked to

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Speaker 3: a researcher who's a dermatologist and a medical anthropologist who

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Speaker 3: is studying the proliferation of skincare routine videos on TikTok,

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Speaker 3: made by and for kids, some as young as seven

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Speaker 3: years old. Let's start with your stories about your appearance

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Speaker 3: and how some of you pay to manipulate it. We've

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Speaker 3: heard from a lot of you about a push and

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Speaker 3: pull of feeling like improving your looks was a frivolous pursuit,

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Speaker 3: and also that looking a certain way felt core to

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Speaker 3: some of the most important things in your life, your

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Speaker 3: romantic relationships, your work, and feeling desired and worthy.

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Speaker 7: I'd like to think of myself as a person with depth,

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Speaker 7: a person who values intelligence and kindness and you know,

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Speaker 7: doing the right thing. And yet sometimes I worry that

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Speaker 7: my appearance in the doors, that my appearance have opened,

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Speaker 7: those are going to close if I don't continue to

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Speaker 7: look this particular way.

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Speaker 3: This is death, Sex and Money, the show from Slate

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Speaker 3: about the things we think about a lot.

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Speaker 8: I need to talk about more iman a sale.

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Speaker 3: Over the last several months, we've been asking you to

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Speaker 3: tell us stories about how you think about looking good.

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Speaker 9: It all started with a glycol peel and went downhill

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Speaker 9: from there.

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Speaker 3: Some of you told us you had a hunch that

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Speaker 3: being more attractive would make your life better.

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Speaker 10: I can't help but feel that if everything were exactly

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Speaker 10: the same, but I had a lot of either self

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Speaker 10: confidence about the way I currently look, or if I

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Speaker 10: just looked better that, you know, maybe things would be

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Speaker 10: even better in my life and career.

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Speaker 11: If I'm being very honest with you, I'm worried that

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Speaker 11: I'm ugly again. That sounds so superficial, but I'm worried

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Speaker 11: that I'm society's standards of ugly because I know what

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Speaker 11: it's like when I just do a little bit more

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Speaker 11: and the looks and the notices and the treatment that

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Speaker 11: I get.

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Speaker 3: Some of you said you were actively leaning away from

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Speaker 3: your outward appearance.

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Speaker 12: I'm never going to fit society's ideals, so why try.

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Speaker 12: I'm not a young finn white woman. I never will

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Speaker 12: be that, so trying to fit in anybody's box is

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Speaker 12: it feels futile to me. I've been walking around with

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Speaker 12: ridiculous looking eyebrows for a few weeks now, just because

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Speaker 12: I've been too lazy, and I think there is a

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Speaker 12: freedom in that.

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Speaker 3: And many of you feel caught in the middle wondering

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Speaker 3: about whether to intervene to improve your appearance, what that

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Speaker 3: would say about you and your values.

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Speaker 13: As somebody who's also part of a DIY punk scene.

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Speaker 13: I feel like somebody who's very anti these mainstream demands

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Speaker 13: of people.

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Speaker 1: As they age.

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Speaker 14: So I have this.

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Speaker 13: Kind of dialogue going on in my head of what

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Speaker 13: how to approach aging moving forward, whether I maybe give

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Speaker 13: in a little bit to some of this external pressure

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Speaker 13: or just augment myself in ways I feel comfortab ble

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Speaker 13: versus just.

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Speaker 14: Yeah, shirking it all off and aging naturally.

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Speaker 15: So I typically go to the gym three to five

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Speaker 15: days a week, but it's getting harder to just maintain

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Speaker 15: those levels of strength and you know, my body and

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Speaker 15: tonness and things like that. And one of the things

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Speaker 15: I'm contemplating is going on TRT or testosterone replacement therapy,

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Speaker 15: and essentially it's weighing out the consequences of potentially impacting

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Speaker 15: my ability to have children. You know, It's been something

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Speaker 15: of weighing out, you know, do I want to potentially

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Speaker 15: risk that you know, long term desire of being a

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Speaker 15: father and having a family versus you know, the vanity and.

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Speaker 16: Looks the idea of getting fillers feels like kind of

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Speaker 16: crossing a bridge. I would be embarrassed to tell somebody

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Speaker 16: that I had fillers. It feels very vain, but also

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Speaker 16: I'm curious about how it would impact my appearance, So

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Speaker 16: we'll see. I still I am like very in the

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Speaker 16: moment of deciding that right.

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Speaker 5: Now, but this a little closer. Is the audio better?

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Speaker 17: Now?

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Speaker 3: This is great?

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Speaker 14: Yeah?

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Speaker 5: Okay, perfect. I'm so happy to talk to you.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm so happy to talk to you. Okay, So

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Speaker 3: we are recording, but before we kind of launch, and

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Speaker 3: I just want to talk about a few things about

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Speaker 3: how we're making this episode. Do you how do you

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Speaker 3: want us to identify you? Do you want us to

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Speaker 3: use Asher?

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Speaker 18: Yeah?

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Speaker 3: So as h g R. And can we say where

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Speaker 3: you live? New York City?

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Speaker 5: Yes?

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Speaker 3: And can we say what age you are?

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Speaker 18: Yes?

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Speaker 3: Okay.

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Speaker 5: You can also say that I'm beautiful, which is the

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Speaker 5: truth you are. I'm kidding, I'm kidding.

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Speaker 3: Asher lives in Manhattan with two roommates. He works as

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Speaker 3: a datus scientist at a consulting firm, and it's a

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Speaker 3: job that pays pretty well and he can work remotely,

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Speaker 3: which has been important when healing from plastic surgery. When

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Speaker 3: Asher reached out to us, he was three months out

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Speaker 3: from getting work done on his face liposection on his cheeks,

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Speaker 3: and a chin implant.

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Speaker 5: You know, I'm thirty five now. Last couple of years,

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Speaker 5: it was kind of looking like a puffier and puffier,

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Speaker 5: and with the implant, it gives a more angular version

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Speaker 5: of your face. It looks a bit more masculine.

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Speaker 3: Which of those two would you say was the more

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Speaker 3: predominant thing. I don't want to look I want to

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Speaker 3: look more masculine. And I want to look young.

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Speaker 5: I don't. I don't. I wouldn't use the word young.

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Speaker 5: H Actually, men secretly kind of want to look a

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Speaker 5: little bit older.

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Speaker 3: Okay.

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Speaker 5: But I looked at my dad and I looked at

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Speaker 5: him carefully. I said, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, we

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Speaker 5: are we are going to scale at a different direction

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Speaker 5: than this.

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Speaker 3: Asher's father is Indian, his mother is Portuguese, and Asher

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Speaker 3: lived in Trinidad until he was seven years old, and

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Speaker 3: he said that culture was more open about plastic surgery.

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Speaker 3: His mom and stepdad both have had facelifts, but now

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Speaker 3: Asher has had more plastic surgery than anyone in his family.

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Speaker 5: I wrote it all down for you, Anna, Okay. I

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Speaker 5: made sure to go through all of my receipts. I

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Speaker 5: went through all the documents because I have it stored,

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Speaker 5: and I was like, let me see. And I looked

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Speaker 5: at the total. I was like, God, damn. Lasik eye

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Speaker 5: surgery four thousand, rhinoplasty, autoplasty, liposuction all in one, ninety

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Speaker 5: eight point fifty uh huh. Rhinoplastic revision that was free,

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Speaker 5: medically necessary. Brazilian butt lift fourteen thousand, five hundred, face

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Speaker 5: chin implant, jaw, jaw liposuction, fat crafts into the lips

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Speaker 5: and cheeks eleven thousand, two forty eight, eyebrow transplant twenty

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Speaker 5: eight hundred. So in total it's forty about forty three

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Speaker 5: thousand dollars.

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Speaker 3: How have you paid for that on a credit card?

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Speaker 3: Did you finance with the doctor's offices cash?

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Speaker 5: So most of them I saved up unpaid cash. All

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Speaker 5: of these I had wanted for twenty years, since I

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Speaker 5: was a teenager. The reason I decided to do it

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Speaker 5: in my thirties is twofold. One, you don't make any

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Speaker 5: good decision in your twenties ever, ever, And two I

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Speaker 5: didn't have the money for it. So even my tattoos,

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Speaker 5: I've got them after I was thirty, So do you

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Speaker 5: really want them? If you really want them at thirty,

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Speaker 5: you'll be fine at twenty, I don't know. My sister

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Speaker 5: has tattoos on her arms, on her neck. I was like,

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Speaker 5: good luck on the job, honey.

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Speaker 3: Like, but if you wait till thirty, your life philosophy

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Speaker 3: is you won't have any regrets.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, thirties, why not.

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Speaker 3: Asher got his first major plastic surgery outside of the

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Speaker 3: US in Turkey. Then a few years later he got

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Speaker 3: the BBL Brazilian butt left at a Park Avenue doctor

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Speaker 3: in Manhattan with good reviews. It's a notoriously dangerous surgery,

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Speaker 3: but Asher deemed it worth the risk.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, so I had what we don't We don't clinically

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Speaker 5: call us, but in common parlance we say you have

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Speaker 5: a long back.

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Speaker 3: So you mean you had a flat butt.

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Speaker 5: Really, I'm really tall, so it's very rare you'll see

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Speaker 5: a guy who is six foot five with a nice butt. Okay,

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Speaker 5: if you look at a guy who's at the gym

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Speaker 5: who's five to nine, it's fucking unfair. Okay, it's just

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Speaker 5: not fair, Like God just just preferred them over me. Okay,

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Speaker 5: Like I had to work for this.

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Speaker 3: So when you say a good butt, tell me what

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Speaker 3: it looks like.

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Speaker 5: So exactly what you would think of It has a

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Speaker 5: little bit of curvature at the top, there's some volume,

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Speaker 5: and it doesn't look outrageous, right.

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Speaker 3: Do you care if it's if it's clear to people

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Speaker 3: who see you that you've had cosmetic procedures.

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Speaker 5: No, this is for me. This is not for anybody else.

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Speaker 3: But you're not self conscious that somebody might know, Like,

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Speaker 3: oh oh, I tell people all the time.

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Speaker 5: I'm like, I've I've got listen, do you have the

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Speaker 5: amount of money I paid for this? You're gonna find

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Speaker 5: out about it. You're gonna know. I am gonna tell

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Speaker 5: you right away. I'm like, I had it done. I

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Speaker 5: saved up a lot of money for it. I nobody listen, Anna,

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Speaker 5: nobody buys a Ferrari to keep it parked in a garage. Okay, Like.

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Speaker 3: Some beauty interventions have made you feel good, you told us.

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Speaker 9: People do say, I can't believe you're the age you are,

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Speaker 9: and I'm very open about about it.

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Speaker 14: In their shock.

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Speaker 19: Lately, I've been getting these These are facials, which are

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Speaker 19: not cheap. They are like two U or thifty bucks

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Speaker 19: up off and you have to get them like every

300
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Speaker 19: ten days. But I'm like, I think those guys look

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Speaker 19: at better maybe than it ever has.

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Speaker 3: Sometimes changes to your appearance can make you feel closer

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Speaker 3: who you feel you really are.

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Speaker 4: I ended up transitioning and identifying as a non binary

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Speaker 4: gender career person, started presenting more masculine, more androgynous. So

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Speaker 4: I did make some investments and changes and how I

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Speaker 4: looked and how I presented myself. I got tattoos which

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Speaker 4: were very expensive and very beautiful and have me like

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Speaker 4: showing off my body in a completely different way than before.

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Speaker 3: Or these interventions can help you stay close to a

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Speaker 3: part you don't want to change.

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Speaker 20: One of the things that I do is I take

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Speaker 20: the Nasteride, which is meant to help you grow and

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Speaker 20: sustain your hair. I noticed that I was losing some

315
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Speaker 20: of my hair after I had gotten a really bad

316
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Speaker 20: haircut and I saw a bald spot on the top

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Speaker 20: of my head and at the behest of my girlfriend.

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Speaker 20: After many days of anxiety and panic, I finally booked

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Speaker 20: a point with a genmatologist and God prescribed medication. I

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Speaker 20: would like to have hair on my head by the

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Speaker 20: time I get married and by the time I have

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Speaker 20: a kid or two, so I'm not really looking to

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Speaker 20: lose it anytime soon. And also I don't want to

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Speaker 20: lose my hair because I do enjoy going to the

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Speaker 20: barber and getting my hair cut. I constantly joke around

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Speaker 20: with my girlfriend and I always tell her that the

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Speaker 20: relationship between a man and his barber is one of

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Speaker 20: the most intimate relationships that a person can have, and

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Speaker 20: I'm not ready to give that up.

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Speaker 21: I got lip filler to, you know, to bring back

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Speaker 21: my old lips, and once I did that, I was like, oh, oh, there,

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Speaker 21: I am.

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Speaker 3: A listener were calling. Caroline first got lip fillers and

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Speaker 3: botox after her marriage ended. She and her ex husband

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Speaker 3: had three kids together and she was in her forties

336
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Speaker 3: when she asked him for a divorce.

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Speaker 21: I felt like I was dying in my marriage. Like

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Speaker 21: that whole I just felt like I was dying.

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Speaker 14: I felt like a dead person walking.

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Speaker 21: And finally I just was like, Okay, we got to

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Speaker 21: be done so that I can feel I mean, I

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Speaker 21: didn't say exactly this, but.

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Speaker 14: So I can feel alive again.

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Speaker 21: And part of that was that I wanted to feel

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Speaker 21: sexually attractive. I wanted to feel desired. So it's all

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Speaker 21: really connected for me.

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Speaker 3: And so when you started doing fillers and botox, was

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Speaker 3: it something that you would do, you'd wait a few months,

349
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Speaker 3: you'd go back and do again. Like how long? How

350
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Speaker 3: many times did you do each of those things?

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Speaker 21: I botox I was doing every four months or so.

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Speaker 14: And Filler.

353
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Speaker 21: I think I did filler three times over like a

354
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Speaker 21: two and a half year period or something like that.

355
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Speaker 21: And then I also did this thing called p doo threads.

356
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Speaker 21: They numb your face and they basically like somehow funnel

357
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Speaker 21: in these it looks like fishing line with little barbs

358
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Speaker 21: on it, so they get it in the.

359
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Speaker 14: Right place and then they pull and your cheek literally

360
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Speaker 14: just goes like it just.

361
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Speaker 3: Pulls up, it lifts.

362
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Speaker 14: Yeah.

363
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Speaker 21: Oh oh, and that was the first time I did that.

364
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Speaker 21: That was amazing.

365
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Speaker 14: It's been over a year since I've done it.

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Speaker 21: I think the last time I got anything done was

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Speaker 21: in January of twenty twenty five.

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Speaker 14: Yeah, so it's all faded away.

369
00:21:09,970 --> 00:21:12,570
Speaker 3: Now, what changed.

370
00:21:13,770 --> 00:21:16,730
Speaker 14: Because I filed for bankruptcy like two weeks ago.

371
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Speaker 3: Oh uh huh.

372
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Speaker 14: I can't afford it. And it really makes me very sad.

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Speaker 3: And when you look in the mirror, like what do

374
00:21:27,409 --> 00:21:30,850
Speaker 3: you do you look at? What what's it like to

375
00:21:30,970 --> 00:21:34,170
Speaker 3: see these procedures that can really change the way you look,

376
00:21:34,209 --> 00:21:37,929
Speaker 3: but are temporary come to an end.

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Speaker 14: I've been kind of sad about it, honestly.

378
00:21:45,889 --> 00:21:51,969
Speaker 21: It's pretty I mean, I knew that eventually I would

379
00:21:52,010 --> 00:21:52,570
Speaker 21: just sort.

380
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Speaker 14: Of have to accept time.

381
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Speaker 18: Mm hmm, but I.

382
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Speaker 14: Don't know that I was ready.

383
00:22:01,649 --> 00:22:12,770
Speaker 3: M that's so interesting how you put that. For any

384
00:22:12,810 --> 00:22:15,450
Speaker 3: aging person, we all know that at some point we're

385
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Speaker 3: going to have to confront age. And you gave yourself

386
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Speaker 3: kind of a grace period to sort of go back

387
00:22:24,209 --> 00:22:26,170
Speaker 3: in time with some interventions.

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Speaker 21: Yeah, I think that that.

389
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Speaker 22: I haven't thought about it that way, but I think

390
00:22:33,530 --> 00:22:35,449
Speaker 22: that that really is kind of what I did.

391
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Speaker 14: I kind of let myself have a.

392
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Speaker 1: Few years of.

393
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Speaker 21: I was a little bit resentful and sad that I

394
00:22:47,409 --> 00:22:52,489
Speaker 21: wasted those years when I was younger and hotter, married

395
00:22:52,490 --> 00:22:55,530
Speaker 21: to someone who didn't care about that sort of thing,

396
00:22:55,570 --> 00:22:59,090
Speaker 21: and I felt really invisible, and I wanted that time back.

397
00:23:00,129 --> 00:23:09,370
Speaker 21: So sorry, I'm such a it's okay, a nose runner,

398
00:23:05,609 --> 00:23:13,010
Speaker 21: right anyway, I wanted that time back, and so yes,

399
00:23:13,050 --> 00:23:14,809
Speaker 21: when I got divorced.

400
00:23:14,330 --> 00:23:22,169
Speaker 22: I think I definitely splurged and gifted myself some of

401
00:23:22,209 --> 00:23:26,930
Speaker 22: that time. And I think, and it's you know, I'm

402
00:23:27,530 --> 00:23:31,050
Speaker 22: in a very loving relationship now just for just over

403
00:23:31,090 --> 00:23:33,850
Speaker 22: a year, and I do feel desired, and I don't

404
00:23:33,889 --> 00:23:37,209
Speaker 22: think it's contingent on boatocks.

405
00:23:37,810 --> 00:23:39,209
Speaker 14: So I don't think.

406
00:23:39,090 --> 00:23:41,609
Speaker 21: I'm at any risk of losing this relationship if I

407
00:23:41,770 --> 00:23:43,450
Speaker 21: stop doing these procedures.

408
00:23:46,169 --> 00:23:49,010
Speaker 1: I just, yeah, I don't want to give.

409
00:23:48,850 --> 00:23:49,729
Speaker 23: That part of me up.

410
00:23:57,770 --> 00:24:00,850
Speaker 18: I kind of liken her to like painting your house.

411
00:24:00,929 --> 00:24:02,929
Speaker 18: You do one room, and then after you're done with

412
00:24:02,970 --> 00:24:04,969
Speaker 18: one room, it looks all like shiny and new, and

413
00:24:05,010 --> 00:24:06,929
Speaker 18: then you're going to step into the next room and

414
00:24:06,970 --> 00:24:10,649
Speaker 18: you're like, oh, this is looking a little shabby. Refresh this,

415
00:24:10,770 --> 00:24:12,489
Speaker 18: and by the time you're done, you're like back to

416
00:24:12,530 --> 00:24:15,449
Speaker 18: the first room, and it's like yeah.

417
00:24:15,850 --> 00:24:18,850
Speaker 3: Jiong lives in the Bay Area and describes herself as

418
00:24:18,889 --> 00:24:23,369
Speaker 3: middle aged. She works in tech, and unlike Caroline, she

419
00:24:23,449 --> 00:24:26,249
Speaker 3: can afford to do anything she wants to her face.

420
00:24:26,689 --> 00:24:32,090
Speaker 3: She sometimes gets weakly expensive facials and regular injectibles, other

421
00:24:32,169 --> 00:24:33,489
Speaker 3: times she doesn't.

422
00:24:33,810 --> 00:24:36,649
Speaker 18: I go in cycles, and here's what I mean by that,

423
00:24:36,770 --> 00:24:40,249
Speaker 18: and this is part of the struggle. I have used

424
00:24:40,290 --> 00:24:43,330
Speaker 18: like Creme de la Maire and august in this water,

425
00:24:43,609 --> 00:24:48,769
Speaker 18: which are too crazy expensive like creams and regimens, and

426
00:24:48,850 --> 00:24:53,569
Speaker 18: then I will start to think more about kind of

427
00:24:53,649 --> 00:24:58,169
Speaker 18: like the cosmetic industrial complex and like what it's doing

428
00:24:58,209 --> 00:25:00,810
Speaker 18: to women, and then I will stop all of that

429
00:25:01,050 --> 00:25:03,489
Speaker 18: and buy like oil of a lay or something at

430
00:25:03,490 --> 00:25:08,530
Speaker 18: the drug store. So it just depends what cycle where you.

431
00:25:08,449 --> 00:25:11,850
Speaker 3: Are in shame, the shame, that indulgence.

432
00:25:11,929 --> 00:25:12,929
Speaker 1: That's exactly right.

433
00:25:14,010 --> 00:25:17,369
Speaker 3: Jeong's parents moved to the United States shortly before Geong

434
00:25:17,530 --> 00:25:21,650
Speaker 3: was born from Korea and brought with them clear ideas

435
00:25:21,970 --> 00:25:23,889
Speaker 3: about how to take care of your skin.

436
00:25:24,770 --> 00:25:28,210
Speaker 18: My mom, anytime she would go out, even for a walk,

437
00:25:28,649 --> 00:25:30,769
Speaker 18: she would be like covered head to toe in like

438
00:25:30,850 --> 00:25:32,609
Speaker 18: a hat. And it didn't matter, you know, if it

439
00:25:32,689 --> 00:25:35,369
Speaker 18: was eighty degrees outside, right, a hat, you know, kind

440
00:25:35,409 --> 00:25:39,730
Speaker 18: of like her sleeves. So when I would go out

441
00:25:39,770 --> 00:25:43,010
Speaker 18: with my friends, she'd be like, take a hat, take

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00:25:43,050 --> 00:25:43,649
Speaker 18: a hat?

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Speaker 3: Was it? Was it primarily about protecting your skin from

444
00:25:48,090 --> 00:25:51,570
Speaker 3: sun damage? Was it also about protecting it keeping it fair?

445
00:25:53,290 --> 00:25:56,090
Speaker 18: It was more about keeping it fair, quite honestly, more

446
00:25:56,129 --> 00:25:59,249
Speaker 18: than like, you know, melanoma concerns or anything.

447
00:25:59,250 --> 00:26:00,850
Speaker 3: I see, So not this.

448
00:26:01,530 --> 00:26:02,770
Speaker 1: It was just a beauty ideal.

449
00:26:03,330 --> 00:26:06,129
Speaker 3: Yeah, when you you work in the tech industry, now

450
00:26:06,209 --> 00:26:10,129
Speaker 3: I do where what it feel like when you go

451
00:26:10,209 --> 00:26:12,929
Speaker 3: to work, when you look at your peers, your coworkers.

452
00:26:15,050 --> 00:26:17,969
Speaker 3: Are you in a sort of tech company where there's

453
00:26:18,129 --> 00:26:20,570
Speaker 3: a premium on being a young person.

454
00:26:22,609 --> 00:26:25,369
Speaker 18: I am at a startup, right, So there's kind of

455
00:26:25,530 --> 00:26:28,090
Speaker 18: I mean there's many kinds of tech. There's like tech tech,

456
00:26:28,649 --> 00:26:33,330
Speaker 18: big tech, and then there's like startup tech and tech tech.

457
00:26:35,050 --> 00:26:40,169
Speaker 18: Tech usually tends to have a bigger generation, you know,

458
00:26:40,290 --> 00:26:43,850
Speaker 18: multi generations, more represented. They're just larger numbers. They're kind

459
00:26:43,850 --> 00:26:49,530
Speaker 18: of older, established companies, et cetera. Whereas the startup environment

460
00:26:49,770 --> 00:26:52,169
Speaker 18: is very different, right, I mean you see all these

461
00:26:52,209 --> 00:26:55,489
Speaker 18: headlines of nineteen year olds, twenty year olds, you know.

462
00:26:56,290 --> 00:26:59,889
Speaker 18: So I am in the startup world, and I have

463
00:27:00,090 --> 00:27:04,330
Speaker 18: been for a while. I just keep getting drawn to this,

464
00:27:05,050 --> 00:27:07,889
Speaker 18: and you know, as I continue to go along in

465
00:27:07,929 --> 00:27:11,050
Speaker 18: my career, for sure, there's an added sense of you.

466
00:27:11,330 --> 00:27:15,850
Speaker 18: You look around, and you know, I'm a lot older

467
00:27:15,889 --> 00:27:17,929
Speaker 18: than a lot of these people. I mean sometimes this

468
00:27:18,050 --> 00:27:20,369
Speaker 18: is like their first job. They got recruited right out

469
00:27:20,369 --> 00:27:26,050
Speaker 18: of college. And so I think overall the way startup

470
00:27:26,090 --> 00:27:28,969
Speaker 18: cultures are kind of like bread and what's championed and

471
00:27:29,010 --> 00:27:38,609
Speaker 18: what's valued. You know, youth is high on that list.

472
00:27:37,209 --> 00:27:40,170
Speaker 3: Where are you today as we're talking in the cycle

473
00:27:40,369 --> 00:27:44,769
Speaker 3: of shame and feeling okay about making appointments to go

474
00:27:44,850 --> 00:27:46,850
Speaker 3: in and get different services.

475
00:27:47,570 --> 00:27:51,129
Speaker 18: Yeah, less and less shame, I will say. And that's

476
00:27:51,209 --> 00:27:54,530
Speaker 18: just like generally about everything as I get older, right,

477
00:27:54,810 --> 00:27:56,489
Speaker 18: But I do want to say, you know, when you

478
00:27:56,570 --> 00:28:00,810
Speaker 18: get compliments for how you look like, it's almost like

479
00:28:01,050 --> 00:28:06,209
Speaker 18: U you want you get that hit, and that becomes

480
00:28:06,330 --> 00:28:10,249
Speaker 18: very seductive. So I think what fees into that is,

481
00:28:10,369 --> 00:28:13,889
Speaker 18: oh well, I've got to continue being seen like this, right,

482
00:28:14,290 --> 00:28:17,330
Speaker 18: And this thing about how women are not seen is

483
00:28:17,369 --> 00:28:20,409
Speaker 18: there as say get older, right, Like older women are invisible,

484
00:28:20,490 --> 00:28:23,409
Speaker 18: older people are invisible, but particularly older women are invisible.

485
00:28:24,169 --> 00:28:28,889
Speaker 18: And so I think that if there's any like little

486
00:28:29,290 --> 00:28:32,570
Speaker 18: hook that kind of still hangs on me, especially being

487
00:28:32,609 --> 00:28:35,209
Speaker 18: in tech, is that I don't want to be invisible.

488
00:28:38,450 --> 00:28:41,010
Speaker 3: The number of people who are doing botox and other

489
00:28:41,050 --> 00:28:45,729
Speaker 3: injectibles like fillers is growing. It's becoming less common to

490
00:28:45,770 --> 00:28:50,130
Speaker 3: see wrinkles on TV, not to mention imperfect teeth, ones

491
00:28:50,170 --> 00:28:53,570
Speaker 3: that aren't totally lined up in bright white, and the

492
00:28:53,730 --> 00:28:59,170
Speaker 3: narrower and shinier that our dominant esthetic gets, the more

493
00:28:59,450 --> 00:29:04,450
Speaker 3: certainly perceived imperfections cannote otherness like not having enough money

494
00:29:04,930 --> 00:29:05,890
Speaker 3: or being left behind.

495
00:29:06,690 --> 00:29:08,289
Speaker 24: I feel like a lot of my friends are like

496
00:29:09,130 --> 00:29:12,410
Speaker 24: getting botox and stuff kind of stupin into the anti

497
00:29:12,490 --> 00:29:18,050
Speaker 24: aging universe, and for me, I'm still struggling with poormonal acne,

498
00:29:18,610 --> 00:29:20,650
Speaker 24: something that I feel like none of my friends are

499
00:29:21,250 --> 00:29:23,130
Speaker 24: really concerned about.

500
00:29:23,530 --> 00:29:28,690
Speaker 17: In the last year, have been told that I need

501
00:29:28,770 --> 00:29:35,050
Speaker 17: to have severe orthodontics, so braces, when I've previously always

502
00:29:35,050 --> 00:29:38,930
Speaker 17: been complimented on my teeth and it can't be in

503
00:29:39,010 --> 00:29:43,690
Speaker 17: visilign and I need elastics in my braces and around

504
00:29:43,770 --> 00:29:46,050
Speaker 17: ten thousand dollars Australian for that to happen.

505
00:29:48,610 --> 00:29:50,410
Speaker 14: I should note that I have Ellis Danlos.

506
00:29:50,170 --> 00:29:54,290
Speaker 17: Syndrome, which is a condition that affects all my collagen.

507
00:29:54,130 --> 00:29:55,010
Speaker 14: You're born with it.

508
00:29:55,770 --> 00:29:59,210
Speaker 17: I was only recently diagnosed about two years ago, but

509
00:29:59,370 --> 00:30:03,770
Speaker 17: the teeth makes sense in regards to that I've also

510
00:30:03,930 --> 00:30:07,490
Speaker 17: experienced in the last year. I changed my birth control

511
00:30:07,650 --> 00:30:12,890
Speaker 17: and had the most trendous ACME of all time, but

512
00:30:13,050 --> 00:30:16,050
Speaker 17: also manifested in basically and I don't know if this

513
00:30:16,130 --> 00:30:20,250
Speaker 17: was the lasound loss, but like my hair growing within

514
00:30:20,330 --> 00:30:26,250
Speaker 17: itself on my face, and I have gone from a really.

515
00:30:26,330 --> 00:30:30,330
Speaker 6: Oh God, I'm gonna crack a really confident, outgoing person.

516
00:30:31,490 --> 00:30:33,370
Speaker 14: To someone who.

517
00:30:34,730 --> 00:30:39,250
Speaker 6: Questions if they look okay to go to the supermarket.

518
00:30:42,610 --> 00:30:46,730
Speaker 6: But it is honestly insane that I, at thirty five,

519
00:30:47,530 --> 00:30:50,690
Speaker 6: am now experiencing this and I feel like I'm back

520
00:30:50,730 --> 00:30:53,930
Speaker 6: to below basics of how to accept my body.

521
00:30:59,570 --> 00:31:03,010
Speaker 3: Coming up? What happens when you take a stand against

522
00:31:03,130 --> 00:31:07,170
Speaker 3: beauty interventions can get pushed back from your family, And

523
00:31:07,209 --> 00:31:10,250
Speaker 3: how it feels to be a child who got lots

524
00:31:10,250 --> 00:31:14,049
Speaker 3: of compliments for how cute and beautiful you are and

525
00:31:14,090 --> 00:31:17,130
Speaker 3: then you grow up and they go away.

526
00:31:17,650 --> 00:31:21,890
Speaker 25: I started to really have to reconcile with, oh, you've

527
00:31:22,530 --> 00:31:24,890
Speaker 25: put a lot of emphasis on looks, and I'm not

528
00:31:25,090 --> 00:31:27,810
Speaker 25: sure how that's going to serve you or how you're

529
00:31:27,850 --> 00:31:30,209
Speaker 25: going to untangle that. Good luck, And that's sort of

530
00:31:30,250 --> 00:31:33,290
Speaker 25: when the addiction to alcohol and drugs kind of really

531
00:31:33,570 --> 00:31:34,729
Speaker 25: you took off.

532
00:31:40,490 --> 00:31:46,209
Speaker 3: How do you introduce yourself, misters Dana, and what's the

533
00:31:46,330 --> 00:31:49,130
Speaker 3: term you use for what you practice? What your work is?

534
00:31:49,250 --> 00:31:54,450
Speaker 3: Professional dominatrix Dana Farrant got into kink in her thirties,

535
00:31:55,010 --> 00:31:58,170
Speaker 3: but she always kept it separate from her professional life.

536
00:31:58,370 --> 00:32:01,009
Speaker 3: It wasn't until she got divorced and turned fifty that

537
00:32:01,090 --> 00:32:05,050
Speaker 3: she decided to pursue a new career. It's always scary

538
00:32:05,090 --> 00:32:07,930
Speaker 3: to start a new job, especially when you're a little older.

539
00:32:08,209 --> 00:32:11,770
Speaker 3: There's that feeling can I really do this? Both from

540
00:32:11,810 --> 00:32:16,650
Speaker 3: yourself and reflected back at you from younger peers. But

541
00:32:16,730 --> 00:32:18,570
Speaker 3: that is not what Dana found.

542
00:32:19,290 --> 00:32:23,010
Speaker 26: I've been more aware of the age piece in stepping

543
00:32:23,010 --> 00:32:27,249
Speaker 26: into the dungeon because the age is a bonus, not

544
00:32:27,330 --> 00:32:27,970
Speaker 26: a negative.

545
00:32:29,010 --> 00:32:32,209
Speaker 3: What age do you think it is most advantageous that

546
00:32:32,250 --> 00:32:34,529
Speaker 3: you appear for your clients.

547
00:32:34,570 --> 00:32:39,450
Speaker 26: Really somewhere, you know, forty five to fifty five. People

548
00:32:39,650 --> 00:32:43,890
Speaker 26: want to know that there's enough experience that I'm not

549
00:32:43,930 --> 00:32:46,810
Speaker 26: going to injure them that I know what I'm doing.

550
00:32:47,130 --> 00:32:51,810
Speaker 26: They want that feeling of I have authority over them.

551
00:32:51,890 --> 00:32:54,370
Speaker 26: So there's a bit of that power dynamics that comes

552
00:32:54,370 --> 00:32:58,090
Speaker 26: in automatically, just in if I'm older than them, they

553
00:32:58,209 --> 00:33:03,250
Speaker 26: feel that immediately. I know professional dominatrix who are still

554
00:33:03,330 --> 00:33:06,890
Speaker 26: working up into their eighties. It is a profession that

555
00:33:07,330 --> 00:33:09,850
Speaker 26: you can get into well, clearly, I'm getting into it

556
00:33:09,890 --> 00:33:13,729
Speaker 26: at an older age, and it's not a negative to

557
00:33:13,770 --> 00:33:15,769
Speaker 26: be working in your sixties and seventies.

558
00:33:16,970 --> 00:33:20,769
Speaker 3: And will you just describe for me how you sense that, Like,

559
00:33:20,890 --> 00:33:25,570
Speaker 3: take me into an initial interaction with a client who's

560
00:33:25,810 --> 00:33:31,130
Speaker 3: trying to figure out who you are, How what the

561
00:33:31,209 --> 00:33:33,810
Speaker 3: dynamics going to be like between you? How do you

562
00:33:34,290 --> 00:33:37,690
Speaker 3: how can you tell what they expect from you, and

563
00:33:37,930 --> 00:33:42,530
Speaker 3: how you're going to sort of assert that this is this.

564
00:33:42,450 --> 00:33:46,410
Speaker 26: Is where it's It's a misnomer for most people in

565
00:33:46,450 --> 00:33:49,730
Speaker 26: this industry. It's not about me trying to make sure

566
00:33:49,770 --> 00:33:54,010
Speaker 26: that they, you know, have their their wish fulfillment or

567
00:33:54,570 --> 00:33:57,170
Speaker 26: you know that I'm making sure that they're really happy.

568
00:33:57,690 --> 00:34:01,729
Speaker 26: It's actually the opposite in the power dynamics, which is

569
00:34:01,730 --> 00:34:02,890
Speaker 26: what they're actually seeking.

570
00:34:02,930 --> 00:34:03,890
Speaker 14: They're seeking to.

571
00:34:05,290 --> 00:34:09,009
Speaker 26: Surrender, to let go of control, and so in order

572
00:34:09,210 --> 00:34:12,529
Speaker 26: to optimally do that, we need to make sure that

573
00:34:12,610 --> 00:34:16,969
Speaker 26: they It's not about them the session. It takes into

574
00:34:16,970 --> 00:34:21,009
Speaker 26: consideration what they like, what they don't like, But when

575
00:34:21,010 --> 00:34:24,410
Speaker 26: they come in for a session, I'm deciding what's going

576
00:34:24,410 --> 00:34:24,930
Speaker 26: in charge.

577
00:34:25,010 --> 00:34:26,690
Speaker 14: I'm in charge.

578
00:34:27,010 --> 00:34:30,490
Speaker 3: Dana didn't always feel in charge of her own life.

579
00:34:30,730 --> 00:34:33,250
Speaker 3: She grew up in a religious community where most of

580
00:34:33,290 --> 00:34:36,410
Speaker 3: her life was mapped out from what she believed to

581
00:34:36,570 --> 00:34:39,490
Speaker 3: how to spend her free time to how she should look.

582
00:34:40,290 --> 00:34:42,570
Speaker 26: I wouldn't allow myself to dye my hair because that

583
00:34:42,610 --> 00:34:49,450
Speaker 26: would be too too much following the world trends and

584
00:34:49,850 --> 00:34:53,770
Speaker 26: not looking godly enough. I didn't really start dying my

585
00:34:53,810 --> 00:34:55,890
Speaker 26: hair until late twenties.

586
00:34:56,650 --> 00:34:59,450
Speaker 3: It's interesting that the way that you described that at

587
00:34:59,490 --> 00:35:02,290
Speaker 3: a period of when it sounds like you were dealing

588
00:35:02,290 --> 00:35:04,690
Speaker 3: with a lot figuring out who you were, how to

589
00:35:04,730 --> 00:35:07,850
Speaker 3: heal from some things, that it was out of that

590
00:35:07,970 --> 00:35:11,450
Speaker 3: time when you started thinking about how you wanted to

591
00:35:11,490 --> 00:35:14,010
Speaker 3: take care of your appearance and started putting in more effort.

592
00:35:14,410 --> 00:35:14,930
Speaker 14: Is that right?

593
00:35:15,050 --> 00:35:17,410
Speaker 26: Yeah, I think there's a there was a shift of

594
00:35:18,650 --> 00:35:24,410
Speaker 26: being allowed internally to spend the money, spend the time,

595
00:35:25,090 --> 00:35:29,010
Speaker 26: do these kinds of things that up until then I had,

596
00:35:29,210 --> 00:35:34,090
Speaker 26: you know, pushed off as like oh, that's so frivolous, shallow.

597
00:35:35,650 --> 00:35:37,330
Speaker 26: You know, the person who was who was helping me

598
00:35:38,050 --> 00:35:41,170
Speaker 26: in the last four or five years, she was she

599
00:35:41,290 --> 00:35:44,090
Speaker 26: was always encouraging me to, like, you know, where something

600
00:35:44,130 --> 00:35:48,490
Speaker 26: sexy go out, because that's a way to to push

601
00:35:47,890 --> 00:35:52,610
Speaker 26: the thoughts out that it's not okay to dress sexy,

602
00:35:52,890 --> 00:35:55,970
Speaker 26: or that something bad's going to happen if I go

603
00:35:56,090 --> 00:35:56,330
Speaker 26: like this.

604
00:35:56,450 --> 00:35:59,090
Speaker 14: So yes, now I have the problem.

605
00:35:59,130 --> 00:36:00,690
Speaker 26: I you know, can go out in a pair of

606
00:36:01,210 --> 00:36:04,450
Speaker 26: short shorts and a little tank top and there's really

607
00:36:04,490 --> 00:36:07,090
Speaker 26: not much left of the imagination and I'm out there

608
00:36:07,130 --> 00:36:07,850
Speaker 26: struggling around.

609
00:36:15,090 --> 00:36:17,650
Speaker 1: This topic is very timely for me, as I feel

610
00:36:17,730 --> 00:36:20,410
Speaker 1: like I'm in the age where people are getting you know,

611
00:36:20,450 --> 00:36:23,850
Speaker 1: they have enough money now my peers to have plastic

612
00:36:23,850 --> 00:36:28,890
Speaker 1: surgery or boatox. I don't do any of that. But

613
00:36:28,970 --> 00:36:32,810
Speaker 1: what I have made the decision, and the reason I'm

614
00:36:33,010 --> 00:36:36,250
Speaker 1: submitting this voice memo is that I recently decided to

615
00:36:36,250 --> 00:36:40,930
Speaker 1: stop coloring my hair and that has totally changed the

616
00:36:40,970 --> 00:36:44,530
Speaker 1: way I perceive myself to move through the world. Yeah,

617
00:36:44,610 --> 00:36:48,330
Speaker 1: I really want to hold strong with this one.

618
00:36:49,490 --> 00:36:52,850
Speaker 3: Suits it is. It looks like your hair is gray.

619
00:36:52,930 --> 00:36:55,130
Speaker 3: I would say on your driver's license, I would say

620
00:36:55,170 --> 00:36:59,370
Speaker 3: gray if I was picking your hair color. Is that

621
00:36:59,410 --> 00:36:59,890
Speaker 3: what you say?

622
00:37:00,010 --> 00:37:02,250
Speaker 1: I mean? I think it's probably If we're going to

623
00:37:02,290 --> 00:37:06,090
Speaker 1: break it down percentage wise, I'd say I'm probably forty

624
00:37:06,130 --> 00:37:10,970
Speaker 1: to sixty, Like forty, that's probably generous. I'm probably sixty

625
00:37:11,330 --> 00:37:13,290
Speaker 1: percent gray, maybe in forty percent brown.

626
00:37:14,170 --> 00:37:17,610
Speaker 3: Alexandra is thirty eight now. She started going gray in

627
00:37:17,610 --> 00:37:21,290
Speaker 3: her early twenties. She'd always died her hair, but stopped

628
00:37:21,370 --> 00:37:22,969
Speaker 3: during pregnancy a few years ago.

629
00:37:23,850 --> 00:37:27,730
Speaker 1: I paused hair color, and then I resumed for a

630
00:37:27,770 --> 00:37:30,050
Speaker 1: little bit, and then I paused again when I got

631
00:37:30,130 --> 00:37:32,290
Speaker 1: pregnant again a couple of years later, and then I

632
00:37:32,410 --> 00:37:36,490
Speaker 1: just never took it back up. And I've gotten a

633
00:37:36,490 --> 00:37:42,410
Speaker 1: lot of feedback on that from whom I mean, like everybody,

634
00:37:42,530 --> 00:37:48,529
Speaker 1: like family members, right, and then also just strangers that

635
00:37:48,690 --> 00:37:51,650
Speaker 1: like meet you, and after you know, you say an initial,

636
00:37:51,690 --> 00:37:53,370
Speaker 1: it's never like, oh my gosh, you have gray hair.

637
00:37:53,410 --> 00:37:56,250
Speaker 1: But after you maybe break the ice with a different conversation,

638
00:37:56,370 --> 00:38:00,130
Speaker 1: they maybe have a comment on your hair. Always women,

639
00:38:00,450 --> 00:38:04,290
Speaker 1: never men, And it's usually in the context of like

640
00:38:04,330 --> 00:38:05,250
Speaker 1: I wish I could do that.

641
00:38:06,810 --> 00:38:09,290
Speaker 3: Oh, so they look at you and they go, I

642
00:38:09,370 --> 00:38:10,489
Speaker 3: wish I was that.

643
00:38:10,570 --> 00:38:12,690
Speaker 1: Brave exactly exactly.

644
00:38:15,170 --> 00:38:19,210
Speaker 3: I want to know a little bit more about what

645
00:38:19,490 --> 00:38:26,490
Speaker 3: you are reacting against, and it might not be the case,

646
00:38:26,570 --> 00:38:29,050
Speaker 3: but I wonder if you could tell me more about

647
00:38:29,250 --> 00:38:32,290
Speaker 3: the women in your family who are older than you.

648
00:38:32,890 --> 00:38:39,690
Speaker 3: What was their approach to when their hair and their

649
00:38:39,730 --> 00:38:42,450
Speaker 3: face and their parents they started to look older.

650
00:38:42,650 --> 00:38:46,530
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, to give you an informed answer to that question,

651
00:38:46,650 --> 00:38:49,050
Speaker 1: let me just back up a titch and say, I

652
00:38:49,170 --> 00:38:52,690
Speaker 1: have two maternal figures in my life, one of which

653
00:38:52,930 --> 00:38:56,450
Speaker 1: is thirteen years older than me, that's my stepmother, and

654
00:38:56,490 --> 00:38:59,210
Speaker 1: then one of which is my maternal mother, and she

655
00:38:59,410 --> 00:39:05,610
Speaker 1: is thirty years older than my stepmom. Okay, yeah, so

656
00:39:06,090 --> 00:39:08,490
Speaker 1: there's quite a big age gap between these two people.

657
00:39:08,570 --> 00:39:11,450
Speaker 1: I probably and more of the ethos of my maternal mother,

658
00:39:11,770 --> 00:39:16,530
Speaker 1: of like, she's very Berkeley in the seventies, hippie, you know,

659
00:39:16,690 --> 00:39:17,490
Speaker 1: English teacher.

660
00:39:17,850 --> 00:39:21,970
Speaker 3: And then I see the linen, the flowing fabric.

661
00:39:21,650 --> 00:39:25,810
Speaker 1: Exactly exactly you have the picture. And then my stepmom

662
00:39:25,970 --> 00:39:30,010
Speaker 1: is a Ploates instructor. She routinely gets like these Dracula

663
00:39:30,170 --> 00:39:32,690
Speaker 1: facial things where I see her face and it's just

664
00:39:32,730 --> 00:39:35,130
Speaker 1: like puffy and like what happened? And she's like I

665
00:39:35,170 --> 00:39:39,170
Speaker 1: had a facial like okay, great, like subscribes to all

666
00:39:39,290 --> 00:39:43,490
Speaker 1: the things to stay looking young and attractive. And so

667
00:39:43,650 --> 00:39:47,090
Speaker 1: I guess I've had competing conversations about this topic my

668
00:39:47,130 --> 00:39:51,650
Speaker 1: whole life. I guess fundamentally at the very core of

669
00:39:51,690 --> 00:39:56,090
Speaker 1: it is I don't want to have to conform to

670
00:39:56,170 --> 00:40:00,690
Speaker 1: somebody else's standards. And I think it's we've been sold

671
00:40:00,810 --> 00:40:03,370
Speaker 1: a bill of goods in this day and age of

672
00:40:03,890 --> 00:40:07,330
Speaker 1: female appearance, that it needs to keep up with a

673
00:40:07,370 --> 00:40:10,610
Speaker 1: certain trend or be a certain way, or youth equals

674
00:40:10,690 --> 00:40:15,530
Speaker 1: beauty like that, like youth equals being wanted, And I

675
00:40:15,530 --> 00:40:17,730
Speaker 1: guess I just don't want to have to keep up

676
00:40:17,770 --> 00:40:20,210
Speaker 1: with that thought process.

677
00:40:21,490 --> 00:40:26,610
Speaker 3: So I'm the idea of feeling wanted. You're in a relationship,

678
00:40:27,170 --> 00:40:28,530
Speaker 3: you're married to a man.

679
00:40:28,490 --> 00:40:28,770
Speaker 24: I am.

680
00:40:28,970 --> 00:40:30,130
Speaker 18: Yeah.

681
00:40:30,210 --> 00:40:32,130
Speaker 1: Do you all talk about it my hair?

682
00:40:32,810 --> 00:40:33,049
Speaker 7: Yeah?

683
00:40:33,130 --> 00:40:33,850
Speaker 1: Yeah, quite a bit.

684
00:40:35,090 --> 00:40:39,290
Speaker 3: What's how does your husband talk with you about how

685
00:40:39,330 --> 00:40:41,330
Speaker 3: you feel about your hair and the decisions you're making.

686
00:40:41,690 --> 00:40:46,690
Speaker 1: He's never been not supportive of my decision And that

687
00:40:46,770 --> 00:40:51,530
Speaker 1: double negative is intentional, but it's not something I know

688
00:40:51,610 --> 00:40:54,890
Speaker 1: that he's totally at peace with, because pictures will come

689
00:40:54,970 --> 00:40:57,650
Speaker 1: up of me, like ten years earlier, and they'll have

690
00:40:57,850 --> 00:41:01,009
Speaker 1: offsided comments of, God, look how good you look there.

691
00:41:01,530 --> 00:41:07,210
Speaker 3: And when you notice that, does it like when it registers,

692
00:41:08,610 --> 00:41:13,970
Speaker 3: do you like does it make you sort of go, huh,

693
00:41:14,130 --> 00:41:17,210
Speaker 3: what's my game plan here for the next thirty years,

694
00:41:17,250 --> 00:41:18,370
Speaker 3: forty years, fifty years?

695
00:41:18,450 --> 00:41:22,489
Speaker 1: Absolutely? Yeah, because it is still so early in the game,

696
00:41:24,410 --> 00:41:28,970
Speaker 1: and I think it hurts a little bit, I'll be honest.

697
00:41:30,330 --> 00:41:33,570
Speaker 1: But it also isn't enough to push me the other direction.

698
00:41:35,010 --> 00:41:39,010
Speaker 1: You know, I'm pretty stubborn, and so it's kind of

699
00:41:39,050 --> 00:41:42,210
Speaker 1: like that would suck if that was the deal breaker.

700
00:41:42,290 --> 00:41:46,130
Speaker 1: But I guess this, you know, is a right if

701
00:41:46,170 --> 00:41:52,610
Speaker 1: that's the case. Yeah. So it's constantly a decision I'm making.

702
00:41:52,890 --> 00:41:55,250
Speaker 1: It's not like, oh, I've I don't color my hair,

703
00:41:55,570 --> 00:41:59,890
Speaker 1: period stop blank. It's constantly something that arises in my

704
00:41:59,970 --> 00:42:05,410
Speaker 1: decision making process, and sometimes I'm swayed to do it

705
00:42:05,530 --> 00:42:09,890
Speaker 1: for whatever reason, and then I usually well, I always

706
00:42:09,930 --> 00:42:14,650
Speaker 1: remember kind of and feel at the core that the

707
00:42:14,650 --> 00:42:16,850
Speaker 1: reasons I don't want to do it, and I'll also

708
00:42:16,890 --> 00:42:19,370
Speaker 1: add to those reasons that I have two daughters and

709
00:42:20,250 --> 00:42:23,650
Speaker 1: this is genetic and I want them to see I

710
00:42:23,690 --> 00:42:27,489
Speaker 1: want them to see this, you know, and to see

711
00:42:27,490 --> 00:42:29,050
Speaker 1: it be okay. And if they want to make a

712
00:42:29,050 --> 00:42:31,730
Speaker 1: different choice, that's all right. But at least they have

713
00:42:32,050 --> 00:42:32,570
Speaker 1: a model.

714
00:42:33,090 --> 00:42:37,330
Speaker 3: You know, did your mother go gray in her twenties

715
00:42:37,370 --> 00:42:44,090
Speaker 3: and thirties? Yes, yes, It's interesting to me how you

716
00:42:44,130 --> 00:42:50,210
Speaker 3: described the maternal figures in your life and how core

717
00:42:51,290 --> 00:42:56,890
Speaker 3: this decision about how how you wear your hair. It

718
00:42:57,530 --> 00:43:01,450
Speaker 3: raises this question of what sort of woman am I? Yes,

719
00:43:02,930 --> 00:43:08,250
Speaker 3: I get very core to identity, Yeah, which is which

720
00:43:08,250 --> 00:43:15,370
Speaker 3: I get. But it's it's interesting how it feels. It

721
00:43:15,410 --> 00:43:19,890
Speaker 3: feels like being pushed to color your hair. Feels like

722
00:43:20,490 --> 00:43:23,490
Speaker 3: they're not seeing you for how you are. Is how

723
00:43:23,530 --> 00:43:23,890
Speaker 3: it feels.

724
00:43:25,090 --> 00:43:28,370
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's kind of like, why do I need to

725
00:43:28,410 --> 00:43:31,810
Speaker 1: do that? I mean for you?

726
00:43:32,810 --> 00:43:33,610
Speaker 3: Is it for you?

727
00:43:34,650 --> 00:43:39,410
Speaker 1: Or because you're embarrassed to have a friend or a

728
00:43:39,450 --> 00:43:45,210
Speaker 1: spouse with gray hair? I mean, what is the encouragement from?

729
00:43:45,410 --> 00:43:45,490
Speaker 24: This?

730
00:43:45,610 --> 00:43:48,610
Speaker 3: Is what I think about a lot too. How I'm

731
00:43:48,650 --> 00:43:52,650
Speaker 3: being closely watched by two little girls. As I dabble

732
00:43:52,730 --> 00:43:56,690
Speaker 3: with beauty interventions and investments. They notice for whom or

733
00:43:56,770 --> 00:43:59,690
Speaker 3: what I put makeup on for when I cover grays.

734
00:44:00,090 --> 00:44:02,850
Speaker 3: They'll alert me when mom, you need to shave your legs.

735
00:44:03,690 --> 00:44:07,290
Speaker 3: I want them to find fun and freedom and how

736
00:44:07,330 --> 00:44:11,530
Speaker 3: they present to the world. Also to be real about

737
00:44:11,530 --> 00:44:14,170
Speaker 3: what it's like to live in a woman's body that

738
00:44:14,290 --> 00:44:18,690
Speaker 3: also lives in a society. This is a balance, and

739
00:44:18,770 --> 00:44:22,490
Speaker 3: you know, comments from grown ups about how you're supposed

740
00:44:22,530 --> 00:44:26,130
Speaker 3: to look. They can get trapped in memory on a loop.

741
00:44:26,890 --> 00:44:30,170
Speaker 27: My mother worked for a classic Sergan's office, and when

742
00:44:30,170 --> 00:44:33,210
Speaker 27: I was sixteen years old, she said to me, Davy

743
00:44:33,210 --> 00:44:35,810
Speaker 27: wouldn't it be nice if we could just get you

744
00:44:35,810 --> 00:44:37,890
Speaker 27: a surgery to take out that little bump in the

745
00:44:37,890 --> 00:44:38,730
Speaker 27: middle of your nose.

746
00:44:39,450 --> 00:44:44,570
Speaker 11: One of my mom's former friends I remember her saying, Oh,

747
00:44:44,610 --> 00:44:47,570
Speaker 11: my gosh, look how big your stomach is. Are you pregnant?

748
00:44:48,250 --> 00:44:50,530
Speaker 11: I literally didn't know where babies came from at the time.

749
00:44:51,050 --> 00:44:53,690
Speaker 28: I have memories of being told to shave my armpits

750
00:44:53,690 --> 00:44:56,930
Speaker 28: by my grandmother to help with body odor, and of

751
00:44:57,090 --> 00:45:00,450
Speaker 28: another patient at a physical therapy clinic talking over my

752
00:45:00,530 --> 00:45:03,170
Speaker 28: head to my physical therapist about my wolf legs.

753
00:45:04,490 --> 00:45:09,370
Speaker 3: But family culture can only influence so much, especially when

754
00:45:09,370 --> 00:45:11,970
Speaker 3: there are so many other ways we are told or

755
00:45:12,090 --> 00:45:14,170
Speaker 3: shown how you ought.

756
00:45:13,930 --> 00:45:15,330
Speaker 5: To look to be desired.

757
00:45:16,210 --> 00:45:18,890
Speaker 3: In this week's Slate Plus episode, I talked to a

758
00:45:18,890 --> 00:45:23,410
Speaker 3: dermatologist who is also a medical anthropologist, doctor Molly Hales.

759
00:45:23,890 --> 00:45:27,170
Speaker 3: She recently co authored a study where she pretended to

760
00:45:27,170 --> 00:45:29,890
Speaker 3: be a thirteen year old girl on TikTok to see

761
00:45:29,890 --> 00:45:33,250
Speaker 3: what the algorithm would serve her. Turns out, a lot

762
00:45:33,290 --> 00:45:37,290
Speaker 3: of young kids are doing skincare routines and doing them badly.

763
00:45:37,810 --> 00:45:40,490
Speaker 23: She's kind of doing this instructional format, so she was

764
00:45:40,490 --> 00:45:43,330
Speaker 23: like a how to video with her full skincare regimen,

765
00:45:43,450 --> 00:45:46,090
Speaker 23: and it had just one product after the other that

766
00:45:46,170 --> 00:45:48,650
Speaker 23: she's holding up and just gushing about how great it

767
00:45:48,690 --> 00:45:51,130
Speaker 23: is and then putting it on her skin. Her skin

768
00:45:51,210 --> 00:45:53,290
Speaker 23: is turning dark, you know, pinker and pinker, And by

769
00:45:53,290 --> 00:45:56,570
Speaker 23: the end she looks into the camera and she says, like,

770
00:45:56,730 --> 00:45:57,690
Speaker 23: here's how this looks.

771
00:45:57,690 --> 00:45:58,490
Speaker 1: It's so glowy.

772
00:45:58,570 --> 00:45:59,170
Speaker 4: I love it.

773
00:45:59,450 --> 00:46:02,290
Speaker 23: But if anyone can tell me how to get it

774
00:46:02,330 --> 00:46:05,410
Speaker 23: to stop burning, that would be greatly appreciated, because it

775
00:46:05,450 --> 00:46:07,490
Speaker 23: actually really hurts a lot.

776
00:46:08,490 --> 00:46:11,610
Speaker 3: My converse with doctor Molly Hales is in the Slate

777
00:46:11,650 --> 00:46:14,730
Speaker 3: Plus feed this week. If you are not already getting

778
00:46:14,730 --> 00:46:17,810
Speaker 3: these special episodes, sign up for Slate Plus on the Death,

779
00:46:17,850 --> 00:46:21,010
Speaker 3: Sex and Money Show page, on Apple Podcasts or on Spotify,

780
00:46:21,650 --> 00:46:26,130
Speaker 3: or just go to slate dot com slash DSM plus

781
00:46:26,730 --> 00:46:31,410
Speaker 3: After the break more of your stories about beauty interventions.

782
00:46:40,610 --> 00:46:43,970
Speaker 3: Nick Dute lives in Los Angeles, California now, but he

783
00:46:44,010 --> 00:46:46,570
Speaker 3: grew up in the Bay Area. As a kid, he

784
00:46:46,730 --> 00:46:50,570
Speaker 3: was told he was beautiful, and he loved it. He

785
00:46:50,650 --> 00:46:52,890
Speaker 3: set out to be an actor, and at first he

786
00:46:53,010 --> 00:46:55,410
Speaker 3: was on a glide path that got all the parts

787
00:46:55,410 --> 00:46:57,489
Speaker 3: he wanted. When he was starting out in shows, near

788
00:46:57,530 --> 00:47:00,290
Speaker 3: his hometown. Then he moved to New York.

789
00:47:01,050 --> 00:47:03,610
Speaker 25: I remember it very clearly. It was it was a

790
00:47:03,650 --> 00:47:07,050
Speaker 25: callback for Jersey Boys on Broadway, which was a huge deal.

791
00:47:07,370 --> 00:47:10,890
Speaker 5: But I was so entitled and my perspective was so

792
00:47:11,090 --> 00:47:12,410
Speaker 5: off prior.

793
00:47:12,210 --> 00:47:14,890
Speaker 25: You know, a big fish in a small pond, coming

794
00:47:14,930 --> 00:47:17,330
Speaker 25: from you know, the San Francisco Bay area, where I

795
00:47:17,370 --> 00:47:20,050
Speaker 25: got pretty much all the parts I wanted, and then

796
00:47:20,090 --> 00:47:22,210
Speaker 25: when I didn't get that, and I thought, oh, the

797
00:47:22,290 --> 00:47:25,290
Speaker 25: whole plan might not work, like the whole A plus

798
00:47:25,290 --> 00:47:29,690
Speaker 25: B equal see is maybe debunked. And that was terrifying

799
00:47:29,730 --> 00:47:29,970
Speaker 25: to me.

800
00:47:30,810 --> 00:47:34,650
Speaker 3: Uh huh. Do you feel like you went out to

801
00:47:34,690 --> 00:47:35,770
Speaker 3: somebody who was hotter?

802
00:47:37,170 --> 00:47:37,370
Speaker 24: Hmm?

803
00:47:38,490 --> 00:47:43,210
Speaker 25: Interesting? No, But I think it's really complicated because I

804
00:47:43,250 --> 00:47:47,969
Speaker 25: think there's also internalized homophobia with this for men gay

805
00:47:48,090 --> 00:47:52,930
Speaker 25: men in theater, especially that when we're playing lead roles

806
00:47:53,130 --> 00:47:57,610
Speaker 25: or masculine presenting roles. That And I'm saying all this

807
00:47:57,650 --> 00:47:59,610
Speaker 25: because I was a twenty five year old twink right

808
00:47:59,690 --> 00:48:04,770
Speaker 25: like a pretty party. So I don't think that he

809
00:48:04,930 --> 00:48:08,250
Speaker 25: was hotter. However, he might have been more masculine.

810
00:48:09,170 --> 00:48:11,770
Speaker 3: Oh, that's interesting. So it was sort of like I

811
00:48:12,770 --> 00:48:17,410
Speaker 3: feel you grew up being told you were a handsome boy,

812
00:48:17,610 --> 00:48:20,810
Speaker 3: and then a handsome young man, and then there was

813
00:48:22,210 --> 00:48:24,330
Speaker 3: there was a complicating factor of like, but are you

814
00:48:24,450 --> 00:48:27,730
Speaker 3: are you a handsome man in the right way to

815
00:48:27,810 --> 00:48:30,770
Speaker 3: present and be successful in your chosen field, right?

816
00:48:31,810 --> 00:48:33,130
Speaker 25: And so you're going to take this to the bank,

817
00:48:33,130 --> 00:48:34,450
Speaker 25: are you going to be able to cash this in?

818
00:48:35,770 --> 00:48:38,970
Speaker 3: As Nick struggled as an actor and with how he

819
00:48:39,010 --> 00:48:41,970
Speaker 3: presented as a man, he was using drugs and alcohol.

820
00:48:42,690 --> 00:48:45,850
Speaker 3: It became a problem and then a full blown addiction.

821
00:48:46,850 --> 00:48:50,450
Speaker 25: I landed in rehab, you know, impatient rehab when I

822
00:48:50,490 --> 00:48:54,250
Speaker 25: was thirty four. So that whole like the last six months,

823
00:48:54,290 --> 00:48:57,610
Speaker 25: you know, my really rock bottom where you know, I

824
00:48:57,730 --> 00:49:00,610
Speaker 25: ended up in a meth cabin in the woods and

825
00:49:00,850 --> 00:49:03,370
Speaker 25: ended up convincing you know, my parents weren't speaking to me.

826
00:49:03,450 --> 00:49:06,210
Speaker 25: I convinced this drug dealer to drive me to la

827
00:49:06,410 --> 00:49:08,610
Speaker 25: probably because he was sick of me, and he's like, okay, sure.

828
00:49:09,610 --> 00:49:12,170
Speaker 25: And it took a couple more months in this crazy

829
00:49:12,210 --> 00:49:14,570
Speaker 25: sort of like you know, using my looks and my

830
00:49:14,650 --> 00:49:17,290
Speaker 25: body to get you know, men in the Hollywood Hills

831
00:49:17,290 --> 00:49:20,250
Speaker 25: to sort of like uber me from party to party,

832
00:49:20,450 --> 00:49:22,810
Speaker 25: and I was always in a blackout. And then I

833
00:49:22,890 --> 00:49:26,210
Speaker 25: ended up in the hospital, and then from there they

834
00:49:26,250 --> 00:49:30,690
Speaker 25: put me into this government run really like scrappy, ragtag

835
00:49:32,290 --> 00:49:34,930
Speaker 25: rehab where the woman who owns it or runs it

836
00:49:35,010 --> 00:49:39,090
Speaker 25: rather is just this no nonsense kind of like you know,

837
00:49:39,490 --> 00:49:42,290
Speaker 25: thirty five years of sobriety herself just like can see

838
00:49:42,290 --> 00:49:45,130
Speaker 25: through it all right. Kathy is her name, and she

839
00:49:45,130 --> 00:49:47,290
Speaker 25: she's sort of the reason I'm sober. She would not

840
00:49:47,490 --> 00:49:52,930
Speaker 25: allow us. We couldn't work out, We couldn't talk about it.

841
00:49:52,970 --> 00:49:57,450
Speaker 25: We couldn't I was begging for a haircut like two

842
00:49:57,530 --> 00:50:00,330
Speaker 25: months in, like I still looked the way I did,

843
00:50:00,410 --> 00:50:02,930
Speaker 25: like from the hospital, and I was putting on weight

844
00:50:02,970 --> 00:50:07,250
Speaker 25: from only eating like donation pastries, like I was disgusting.

845
00:50:07,650 --> 00:50:10,890
Speaker 25: And she just knew exactly that that was the issue,

846
00:50:10,970 --> 00:50:13,770
Speaker 25: and she would not budge. Yeah, Kathy said, I have

847
00:50:13,850 --> 00:50:16,170
Speaker 25: to focus on my insides, not my outsides.

848
00:50:18,170 --> 00:50:20,969
Speaker 3: Can you just say to me, I want to make

849
00:50:20,970 --> 00:50:24,890
Speaker 3: sure I'm really getting what Kathy identified and what she

850
00:50:25,050 --> 00:50:33,650
Speaker 3: helped you identify about the link between your addiction, addictions

851
00:50:33,930 --> 00:50:38,850
Speaker 3: and how you look. How do you understand that?

852
00:50:40,130 --> 00:50:42,410
Speaker 25: The way I understand it is there's a lot of

853
00:50:42,450 --> 00:50:46,050
Speaker 25: things that, as you would say in the program, fix

854
00:50:46,170 --> 00:50:49,290
Speaker 25: feelings like how can I fix how I feel, not

855
00:50:49,370 --> 00:50:52,490
Speaker 25: be present, you know, whatever it is. And I think

856
00:50:52,730 --> 00:50:57,570
Speaker 25: when you take out the really strong, life shattering substances,

857
00:50:58,130 --> 00:51:02,650
Speaker 25: you are reaching. And so the way I looked was

858
00:51:02,690 --> 00:51:05,530
Speaker 25: another way I was wearing a mask. It was another

859
00:51:05,610 --> 00:51:10,730
Speaker 25: way that I was hiding, not being I was people pleasing,

860
00:51:10,970 --> 00:51:14,410
Speaker 25: wanting to be who you needed me to be. All

861
00:51:14,450 --> 00:51:17,810
Speaker 25: of those things I never would have really dissected had

862
00:51:17,850 --> 00:51:20,930
Speaker 25: I not torched my life in that way and met

863
00:51:21,050 --> 00:51:25,690
Speaker 25: Kathy and these other addicts that helped me understand the

864
00:51:25,690 --> 00:51:29,530
Speaker 25: mirror of how ridiculous it was to be so concerned

865
00:51:29,890 --> 00:51:32,410
Speaker 25: here I am. Kathy would say, look where you are.

866
00:51:32,770 --> 00:51:35,210
Speaker 25: You're like worried about a haircut, but what about where

867
00:51:35,250 --> 00:51:36,010
Speaker 25: your life.

868
00:51:35,730 --> 00:51:36,770
Speaker 1: Has taken you?

869
00:51:36,770 --> 00:51:41,210
Speaker 25: You know, like obviously looking good didn't work for you.

870
00:51:41,210 --> 00:51:45,650
Speaker 5: You know, Oh Katy.

871
00:51:45,410 --> 00:51:47,970
Speaker 2: She's like, you're worried about a haircut, right.

872
00:51:48,930 --> 00:51:50,890
Speaker 25: So her big thing that she would her cats phrase

873
00:51:50,930 --> 00:51:54,010
Speaker 25: would always be like, whatever you were obsessing about, Nick,

874
00:51:54,130 --> 00:51:58,850
Speaker 25: if a haircut, if haircuts worked for you, you'd have an

875
00:51:58,890 --> 00:52:03,250
Speaker 25: amazing life.

876
00:52:03,650 --> 00:52:04,490
Speaker 5: We love Kathy.

877
00:52:05,490 --> 00:52:06,450
Speaker 14: We love Kathy.

878
00:52:07,730 --> 00:52:10,969
Speaker 25: So sometimes it's very helpful to lose everything because then

879
00:52:11,090 --> 00:52:13,969
Speaker 25: a comment like that really puts it in perspective.

880
00:52:16,410 --> 00:52:18,890
Speaker 3: When Nick got out of rehab, he was sober and

881
00:52:18,970 --> 00:52:21,930
Speaker 3: rebuilding his life. He got a new job and soon

882
00:52:21,970 --> 00:52:25,690
Speaker 3: met a man Walker at an AA meeting. Walker was

883
00:52:25,730 --> 00:52:29,730
Speaker 3: ten years younger, twenty five to Nick's thirty five, and

884
00:52:29,770 --> 00:52:32,330
Speaker 3: within three months of meeting they moved in together. Then

885
00:52:32,370 --> 00:52:36,890
Speaker 3: seven years later they married. Nick wrote about his relationship

886
00:52:36,930 --> 00:52:40,010
Speaker 3: with Walker in a recent essay in New York Magazine,

887
00:52:40,170 --> 00:52:42,810
Speaker 3: and also about the tensions that have showed up there

888
00:52:43,330 --> 00:52:46,890
Speaker 3: because of Nick's relationship to his body. For a while,

889
00:52:47,370 --> 00:52:51,530
Speaker 3: Nick felt secure in his relationship. Walker never cared what

890
00:52:51,650 --> 00:52:53,970
Speaker 3: size I was, he wrote. He told me I was

891
00:52:54,010 --> 00:52:56,450
Speaker 3: handsome when I rolled out of bed, sexy and Jim

892
00:52:56,530 --> 00:53:00,450
Speaker 3: Schortz hot even without a tan. For a while I

893
00:53:00,450 --> 00:53:04,050
Speaker 3: believed him, he wrote. And then the pandemic.

894
00:53:03,650 --> 00:53:07,290
Speaker 25: Kid and I had was heading into my forty, so

895
00:53:07,730 --> 00:53:11,010
Speaker 25: the weight wasn't coming off the way that it used to,

896
00:53:11,090 --> 00:53:14,570
Speaker 25: and I had to, like maybe like six months in,

897
00:53:14,730 --> 00:53:17,770
Speaker 25: I had to Instead of all my medium polo shirts

898
00:53:17,770 --> 00:53:20,410
Speaker 25: that I wore to work, I went online to get

899
00:53:20,410 --> 00:53:25,130
Speaker 25: some larges, which was felt like daggered to my heart.

900
00:53:26,730 --> 00:53:29,730
Speaker 3: When did you have your first conversation with a physician

901
00:53:29,810 --> 00:53:32,050
Speaker 3: about some kind of surgical intervention.

902
00:53:34,690 --> 00:53:35,410
Speaker 21: Pretty much.

903
00:53:35,570 --> 00:53:39,210
Speaker 25: Well, I think because i've I've gone, they're all spaced

904
00:53:39,210 --> 00:53:43,770
Speaker 25: out about a year, so probably twenty twenty one. So

905
00:53:43,850 --> 00:53:46,850
Speaker 25: I broached the subject with Walker of light bo and

906
00:53:46,890 --> 00:53:51,290
Speaker 25: he's you know, he was like, sure, whatever, and then

907
00:53:51,570 --> 00:53:53,730
Speaker 25: didn't love those results.

908
00:53:54,210 --> 00:53:57,970
Speaker 3: A year endo the pandemic, Nick got LiPo section. It

909
00:53:58,090 --> 00:54:02,650
Speaker 3: costs just over twenty thousand dollars. When Nick told Walker playfully,

910
00:54:02,810 --> 00:54:06,970
Speaker 3: hey babe, I'm getting my boobs done, Walker's response was cautious.

911
00:54:07,690 --> 00:54:09,970
Speaker 3: If it's going to make you feel better, I support you,

912
00:54:10,090 --> 00:54:12,730
Speaker 3: he said, but are you sure this is about your chest?

913
00:54:13,810 --> 00:54:17,610
Speaker 3: And then the results weren't what Nick wanted. He wrote

914
00:54:17,650 --> 00:54:22,050
Speaker 3: the definition I expected never materialized, just a torso that

915
00:54:22,090 --> 00:54:26,890
Speaker 3: looked oddly smooth, almost melted. So then Nick went back

916
00:54:26,930 --> 00:54:31,530
Speaker 3: for a revision procedure that cost another seven five hundred dollars.

917
00:54:32,370 --> 00:54:36,890
Speaker 3: When the results still didn't feel perfect, Nick's doctor suggested

918
00:54:36,930 --> 00:54:41,090
Speaker 3: a tummy tuck, and Nick scheduled it, but waited until

919
00:54:41,130 --> 00:54:45,050
Speaker 3: two weeks before the surgery to tell his husband. Walker

920
00:54:45,250 --> 00:54:48,610
Speaker 3: was furious about all the money and all the surgeries

921
00:54:49,170 --> 00:54:51,490
Speaker 3: and asked Nick if he could cancel, but it was

922
00:54:51,530 --> 00:54:51,969
Speaker 3: too late.

923
00:54:52,730 --> 00:54:57,050
Speaker 25: I had already gone back, same surgeon, had already held

924
00:54:57,090 --> 00:55:00,489
Speaker 25: the date, paid a deposit because I knew, come hell

925
00:55:00,530 --> 00:55:02,410
Speaker 25: or high water, I had to do it. And then

926
00:55:02,410 --> 00:55:06,330
Speaker 25: I just had to have like an honest adult conversation

927
00:55:06,410 --> 00:55:09,650
Speaker 25: with Walker, and that was not the right way. And

928
00:55:10,290 --> 00:55:14,969
Speaker 25: that's why it was so bad, just in that he's like, well,

929
00:55:15,010 --> 00:55:17,770
Speaker 25: you're gonna do it. I mean, you're already doing.

930
00:55:17,530 --> 00:55:22,009
Speaker 3: It, so you you'd pay the deposit. You had said,

931
00:55:22,050 --> 00:55:24,850
Speaker 3: I am doing this third surgery. And then you're like,

932
00:55:25,090 --> 00:55:28,090
Speaker 3: I have to tell my husband, and then he's pang

933
00:55:28,250 --> 00:55:31,610
Speaker 3: on sort of ask yeah, ask slash inform.

934
00:55:33,010 --> 00:55:34,290
Speaker 25: Yeah, you get it.

935
00:55:35,010 --> 00:55:38,650
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I also have a husband who I sometimes

936
00:55:38,690 --> 00:55:43,930
Speaker 3: ask slash inform. Yeah. But it was the way that

937
00:55:44,010 --> 00:55:47,730
Speaker 3: you came to what is this for? That that conversation

938
00:55:47,810 --> 00:55:50,930
Speaker 3: between the two of you and is this worth all

939
00:55:50,970 --> 00:55:56,650
Speaker 3: this effort, time, money, pain of recovery. It was the

940
00:55:56,730 --> 00:55:59,610
Speaker 3: money that that was the way you had that conversation.

941
00:56:00,610 --> 00:56:02,489
Speaker 3: We could use this money for something else.

942
00:56:04,330 --> 00:56:08,810
Speaker 25: I think it was layered because it was also the

943
00:56:08,850 --> 00:56:12,210
Speaker 25: first time I had heard I loved your body. Before

944
00:56:12,970 --> 00:56:16,010
Speaker 25: the first time I had heard what are you do?

945
00:56:16,130 --> 00:56:19,130
Speaker 25: You know you're batching the things I love, like these

946
00:56:19,290 --> 00:56:22,450
Speaker 25: sort of like things that come out in a heated

947
00:56:22,490 --> 00:56:30,650
Speaker 25: conversation that yeah, it just was. It's like I overstayed

948
00:56:30,650 --> 00:56:33,969
Speaker 25: my welcome of just positive cheer from the sidelines and

949
00:56:34,010 --> 00:56:37,370
Speaker 25: got the tough love of like do you think this

950
00:56:37,450 --> 00:56:40,970
Speaker 25: is looking better? Like do you think this is fixing anything?

951
00:56:41,170 --> 00:56:44,730
Speaker 25: Kind of a thing. And it was too late. It

952
00:56:44,810 --> 00:56:48,850
Speaker 25: was I wanted to get The night before, I thought

953
00:56:48,930 --> 00:56:51,570
Speaker 25: I should cancel. This is gonna this, He's gonna ask

954
00:56:51,610 --> 00:56:53,690
Speaker 25: me for a divorce, like this is gonna be bad.

955
00:56:54,450 --> 00:56:58,490
Speaker 25: And he said no, you know, he drove me like

956
00:56:58,530 --> 00:57:01,690
Speaker 25: we patched it up for as best we could. The

957
00:57:01,810 --> 00:57:05,450
Speaker 25: night before, he drove me to the hospital, you know,

958
00:57:05,610 --> 00:57:10,490
Speaker 25: the surgery place, and yeah, and then I went to

959
00:57:10,530 --> 00:57:14,490
Speaker 25: aftercare and ended up in aftercare for like five days,

960
00:57:14,530 --> 00:57:18,370
Speaker 25: and he saw me there once. But I knew that

961
00:57:18,690 --> 00:57:22,330
Speaker 25: he was over it. I knew that it was I

962
00:57:22,370 --> 00:57:24,370
Speaker 25: had done something. I had crossed the line.

963
00:57:25,090 --> 00:57:25,570
Speaker 3: Mm hm.

964
00:57:27,290 --> 00:57:27,610
Speaker 10: M hm.

965
00:57:29,290 --> 00:57:33,370
Speaker 3: And looking back, when you were scheduling that third surgery,

966
00:57:33,890 --> 00:57:36,690
Speaker 3: you described kind of like I want I want the

967
00:57:36,730 --> 00:57:39,490
Speaker 3: result that I've been after. You described that as your motivation,

968
00:57:42,170 --> 00:57:45,690
Speaker 3: But do you do you link it to that those

969
00:57:46,170 --> 00:57:48,650
Speaker 3: what we were talking about before, about what you were

970
00:57:48,890 --> 00:57:52,970
Speaker 3: kind of confronting and recovery about, like your worth is

971
00:57:53,010 --> 00:57:55,490
Speaker 3: connected to yes, how you look.

972
00:57:55,650 --> 00:58:00,170
Speaker 25: For sure, because I thought, you know, it's funny or ironically,

973
00:58:00,810 --> 00:58:05,530
Speaker 25: the most stress that's ever been put on our relationship

974
00:58:05,570 --> 00:58:08,210
Speaker 25: is this. But here I am probably three years prior

975
00:58:08,290 --> 00:58:10,810
Speaker 25: and when I went to ask for the last surgery,

976
00:58:12,130 --> 00:58:16,330
Speaker 25: thinking this would be in the category of saving my marriage,

977
00:58:16,930 --> 00:58:19,930
Speaker 25: when it was doing the opposite, you know, because I

978
00:58:20,050 --> 00:58:23,050
Speaker 25: did feel like he chose me because of the way

979
00:58:23,090 --> 00:58:27,970
Speaker 25: I looked at thirty five, He chose me because of

980
00:58:28,010 --> 00:58:32,250
Speaker 25: the way others saw me, the way others complimented me.

981
00:58:33,210 --> 00:58:39,210
Speaker 25: I had that narrative going. So this really shook all

982
00:58:39,250 --> 00:58:41,770
Speaker 25: of that because it was the first time I knew

983
00:58:41,770 --> 00:58:47,490
Speaker 25: that he liked my body, but I didn't realize. Yeah,

984
00:58:47,490 --> 00:58:49,850
Speaker 25: I just thought it was all improvement that there was

985
00:58:49,970 --> 00:58:53,450
Speaker 25: no risk of, you know, like the scar from the

986
00:58:53,490 --> 00:58:58,810
Speaker 25: tummy duck. It's like neither of us really understood how

987
00:58:59,090 --> 00:59:00,290
Speaker 25: intense that would look.

988
00:59:01,890 --> 00:59:02,050
Speaker 17: You know.

989
00:59:02,130 --> 00:59:04,410
Speaker 25: He described it as a C section scar, which it's

990
00:59:04,490 --> 00:59:08,250
Speaker 25: not far off. And yeah, I was a little shocked too,

991
00:59:08,290 --> 00:59:11,050
Speaker 25: Like I was so tom vision that I thought, oh,

992
00:59:11,370 --> 00:59:14,130
Speaker 25: oh wait, so it never really goes wait, it never

993
00:59:14,170 --> 00:59:18,490
Speaker 25: goes away, like, yeah, dude.

994
00:59:19,090 --> 00:59:21,090
Speaker 3: I remember I wished I'd had a warning before my

995
00:59:21,170 --> 00:59:24,450
Speaker 3: c section. Just look at your stomach before, because it'll

996
00:59:24,450 --> 00:59:29,890
Speaker 3: never look like that again, right, yeah.

997
00:59:28,650 --> 00:59:31,970
Speaker 25: Yeah, and just and I remember my surgeon saying something like,

998
00:59:32,810 --> 00:59:36,570
Speaker 25: well even if he said something like because I said,

999
00:59:36,810 --> 00:59:39,530
Speaker 25: I'm uncomfortable even with my partner with my shirt off

1000
00:59:39,530 --> 00:59:41,250
Speaker 25: and I definitely don't want to go to the pool

1001
00:59:41,290 --> 00:59:41,730
Speaker 25: and blah.

1002
00:59:41,530 --> 00:59:44,410
Speaker 5: Blah, and he said, well, even.

1003
00:59:44,210 --> 00:59:47,370
Speaker 25: If you're still uncomfortable, you know, with like the results

1004
00:59:47,410 --> 00:59:50,930
Speaker 25: of a tummy tuck at least like you're silhouette, you know,

1005
00:59:50,970 --> 00:59:53,010
Speaker 25: in clothing. And I'm thinking like, well, yeah, but with

1006
00:59:53,050 --> 00:59:55,490
Speaker 25: my shirt off too. And I now realize that what

1007
00:59:55,610 --> 01:00:00,410
Speaker 25: he meant was you might not like the scar if

1008
01:00:00,450 --> 01:00:03,530
Speaker 25: your pants go below that, and you also might not

1009
01:00:03,770 --> 01:00:05,730
Speaker 25: like the fact that it's not the belly button you

1010
01:00:05,770 --> 01:00:06,450
Speaker 25: were born with.

1011
01:00:07,170 --> 01:00:07,930
Speaker 18: Uh huh.

1012
01:00:08,010 --> 01:00:10,330
Speaker 3: You still might not like the way you look when

1013
01:00:10,370 --> 01:00:16,170
Speaker 3: you're naked or with your shirt off, huh huh. I

1014
01:00:16,570 --> 01:00:20,690
Speaker 3: want to understand how you think about if you could

1015
01:00:20,730 --> 01:00:26,530
Speaker 3: go back and make different decisions, where you might make

1016
01:00:26,570 --> 01:00:31,210
Speaker 3: different decisions when it comes to these the interventions, the

1017
01:00:31,250 --> 01:00:34,250
Speaker 3: surgical interventions, Like, how do you think about that choice?

1018
01:00:35,090 --> 01:00:38,210
Speaker 25: The truth is that had I known all of the

1019
01:00:38,250 --> 01:00:42,290
Speaker 25: different things, like not just the physical medical, but the emotional,

1020
01:00:42,410 --> 01:00:45,930
Speaker 25: the mental, I probably wouldn't have started down the path.

1021
01:00:46,130 --> 01:00:50,530
Speaker 25: And I think, even though I'm satisfied and glad in

1022
01:00:50,610 --> 01:00:55,050
Speaker 25: a way, it part of it's almost not worth it,

1023
01:00:55,170 --> 01:00:55,890
Speaker 25: do you know what I mean?

1024
01:00:57,610 --> 01:01:00,570
Speaker 3: And in your relationship now with your husband, like if

1025
01:01:00,610 --> 01:01:04,610
Speaker 3: there's a day where you're just like not feeling hot, like,

1026
01:01:04,850 --> 01:01:07,410
Speaker 3: is that something you'll say to him or do you

1027
01:01:07,490 --> 01:01:08,330
Speaker 3: keep that inside?

1028
01:01:09,370 --> 01:01:12,170
Speaker 25: Yeah, we're gay men in LA and there isn't a

1029
01:01:12,250 --> 01:01:14,210
Speaker 25: day that goes by where we don't kind of get

1030
01:01:14,250 --> 01:01:15,490
Speaker 25: down on ourselves about it.

1031
01:01:15,490 --> 01:01:20,210
Speaker 5: And it's it's sad. It is, you know, it is sad.

1032
01:01:20,290 --> 01:01:24,130
Speaker 25: And I think that our job, especially in sobriety, is

1033
01:01:24,210 --> 01:01:28,290
Speaker 25: to take that inventory, you know, and really look at

1034
01:01:29,130 --> 01:01:31,770
Speaker 25: maybe I have to go do something for somebody else,

1035
01:01:31,890 --> 01:01:34,290
Speaker 25: Maybe I need to volunteer, Like how do I get

1036
01:01:34,330 --> 01:01:35,210
Speaker 25: out of myself?

1037
01:01:35,330 --> 01:01:35,530
Speaker 13: Right?

1038
01:01:36,610 --> 01:01:38,290
Speaker 3: I think I ask you because I think it's so

1039
01:01:38,410 --> 01:01:43,450
Speaker 3: interesting that the moment of real sort of rupture was

1040
01:01:43,730 --> 01:01:46,970
Speaker 3: you thinking I'm doing this to stay attractive in this

1041
01:01:47,090 --> 01:01:50,690
Speaker 3: marriage and him saying you're changing in ways that I

1042
01:01:50,690 --> 01:01:54,170
Speaker 3: feel uncomfortable with that I don't really like, and so

1043
01:01:54,250 --> 01:01:57,690
Speaker 3: I wonder if, like, that's if now you can get

1044
01:01:57,730 --> 01:01:59,450
Speaker 3: to that part of the conversation faster.

1045
01:02:00,290 --> 01:02:06,090
Speaker 25: Yeah, well, I definitely think the positives of those hard

1046
01:02:06,130 --> 01:02:11,050
Speaker 25: conversations is that we can skip that part. For me,

1047
01:02:11,130 --> 01:02:13,690
Speaker 25: I was so far gone when I was deciding about

1048
01:02:13,730 --> 01:02:17,490
Speaker 25: the surgeries. Nobody could have said to me, this isn't

1049
01:02:17,970 --> 01:02:20,370
Speaker 25: this isn't a problem, and this isn't the way to

1050
01:02:20,410 --> 01:02:23,130
Speaker 25: fix it. No one but they could now. I think

1051
01:02:23,210 --> 01:02:25,250
Speaker 25: they could now, and I would listen.

1052
01:02:33,530 --> 01:02:36,970
Speaker 3: That's Nick dte. His essay in New York Magazine is

1053
01:02:37,010 --> 01:02:40,810
Speaker 3: called What Plastic Surgery Couldn't Fix. There's a link to

1054
01:02:40,850 --> 01:02:44,210
Speaker 3: it in our show notes. Thank you to everyone whom

1055
01:02:44,290 --> 01:02:46,930
Speaker 3: we talked to for this episode and everyone who's sent

1056
01:02:47,010 --> 01:02:53,690
Speaker 3: in voice memos. This episode was produced by Zoe Ajulet.

1057
01:02:53,730 --> 01:02:55,730
Speaker 3: The rest of the Death, Sex and Money Show team

1058
01:02:55,850 --> 01:02:59,050
Speaker 3: includes Andrew Dunn and Cameron Drews. Dais of Rosario is

1059
01:02:59,090 --> 01:03:02,970
Speaker 3: our senior supervising producer. Neia Lobel is the head of

1060
01:03:03,050 --> 01:03:07,450
Speaker 3: Slate Podcast. Hillary Frye is Slate's editor in chief. You

1061
01:03:07,490 --> 01:03:10,650
Speaker 3: can support the production of our show. By joining our

1062
01:03:10,690 --> 01:03:14,770
Speaker 3: membership program Slate Plus, you'll get bonus episodes from us

1063
01:03:14,850 --> 01:03:17,450
Speaker 3: and from other Slate shows like Dakota Ring and How To,

1064
01:03:18,290 --> 01:03:22,330
Speaker 3: and you can listen to all of Slate's podcasts without ads.

1065
01:03:22,850 --> 01:03:25,570
Speaker 3: Subscribe directly from the Death, Sex and Money Show page

1066
01:03:25,610 --> 01:03:29,650
Speaker 3: on Apple Podcasts or on Spotify, or visit slate dot

1067
01:03:29,690 --> 01:03:33,970
Speaker 3: com slash DSM plus to get access wherever you listen.

1068
01:03:34,730 --> 01:03:37,370
Speaker 3: Our theme music is by the Reverend John Delore and

1069
01:03:37,450 --> 01:03:40,610
Speaker 3: Steve Lewis. If you are new to our show, Welcome,

1070
01:03:40,730 --> 01:03:43,570
Speaker 3: We are glad you're here. Find us on follow us

1071
01:03:43,610 --> 01:03:46,370
Speaker 3: on Instagram at Death Sex Money. Can I write a

1072
01:03:46,410 --> 01:03:48,490
Speaker 3: weekly newsletter? You can sign up to get that at

1073
01:03:48,530 --> 01:03:52,090
Speaker 3: Cannasale dot substack dot com, and you can reach us

1074
01:03:52,090 --> 01:03:56,130
Speaker 3: anytime with voice memos, pep talks, questions or critiques at

1075
01:03:56,130 --> 01:04:00,330
Speaker 3: our email Death Sex Money at slate dot com. We

1076
01:04:00,410 --> 01:04:03,890
Speaker 3: love hearing from you. One more thing Asher told me.

1077
01:04:04,010 --> 01:04:06,970
Speaker 3: He says when he got that Brazilian butt lift, he

1078
01:04:07,090 --> 01:04:11,170
Speaker 3: noticed increased attention on hookup, but he also got attention

1079
01:04:11,490 --> 01:04:13,290
Speaker 3: from unexpected sources.

1080
01:04:13,610 --> 01:04:16,170
Speaker 5: I live on a street where it's kind of common

1081
01:04:16,250 --> 01:04:19,090
Speaker 5: to see the same people who lived here fourteen years

1082
01:04:20,170 --> 01:04:24,850
Speaker 5: and this lady that lives two floors above me, she

1083
01:04:24,970 --> 01:04:27,050
Speaker 5: saw me. I usually opened the door for her because

1084
01:04:27,090 --> 01:04:30,050
Speaker 5: she's older and she carries she walks with her grandma cart.

1085
01:04:31,050 --> 01:04:34,610
Speaker 5: And she told me that during her recent dominoes game,

1086
01:04:34,650 --> 01:04:37,530
Speaker 5: because they you know, Dominicans love to play dominoes.

1087
01:04:37,090 --> 01:04:37,610
Speaker 1: On the street.

1088
01:04:38,130 --> 01:04:40,570
Speaker 5: She's like, everybody was talking about you, but looks so good.

1089
01:04:40,650 --> 01:04:44,770
Speaker 5: I could I was so I could not believe it.

1090
01:04:47,810 --> 01:04:50,090
Speaker 3: I'm in a sale and this is death, sex and

1091
01:04:50,170 --> 01:04:51,010
Speaker 3: money from sleet