WEBVTT - Camouflage Bias: Part 2 0:00:15.356 --> 0:00:23.196 Pushkin. Hey, it's Jake Today. We're continuing with the Ronnie 0:00:23.236 --> 0:00:26.676 Karraschillo story. This is part two, so if you haven't 0:00:26.676 --> 0:00:29.156 listened to part one yet, you should definitely go back 0:00:29.476 --> 0:00:34.716 and do that now. So last episode we ended with 0:00:34.836 --> 0:00:38.356 Ronnie getting some good news or what seemed like it. Anyhow, 0:00:38.676 --> 0:00:41.756 the court basically told him, we think your sentence of 0:00:41.836 --> 0:00:45.196 two hundred to six hundred years may have violated a 0:00:45.236 --> 0:00:48.996 clause in the Illinois Constitution. That clause, by the way, 0:00:49.196 --> 0:00:53.636 says quote, all penalties shall be determined both according to 0:00:53.716 --> 0:00:56.676 the seriousness of the offense and with the objective of 0:00:56.756 --> 0:01:02.836 restoring the offender to useful citizenship. Bottom line, Ronnie could 0:01:02.996 --> 0:01:07.476 now be resentenced. Well maybe. Last June there was yet 0:01:07.556 --> 0:01:10.516 another hearing to figure this all out. It took days. 0:01:11.156 --> 0:01:14.396 Ronnie's lawyer, Michael Deutsch, brought in over a dozen witnesses 0:01:14.436 --> 0:01:18.596 to testify about who Ronnie was and is now, about 0:01:18.636 --> 0:01:20.676 the type of man that Ronnie has become in prison. 0:01:21.236 --> 0:01:24.236 One of those witnesses was Ali Prewett, a lawyer and 0:01:24.316 --> 0:01:28.076 Chicago activist. She talked about Ronnie and the people he'd 0:01:28.116 --> 0:01:29.396 mentored or inspired. 0:01:30.236 --> 0:01:32.236 What really has stuck out to me over the years 0:01:32.316 --> 0:01:35.396 is the positive impact he's left on not only folks 0:01:35.396 --> 0:01:39.796 who have been incarcerated, but folks who haven't. He has 0:01:39.916 --> 0:01:44.676 this sort of positive influence and inspiring story and is 0:01:44.756 --> 0:01:47.716 just such a motivator for so many people, for his family, 0:01:48.276 --> 0:01:49.196 for his friends. 0:01:49.956 --> 0:01:54.196 The State of Illinois had lawyers there arguing the other side, it's. 0:01:54.036 --> 0:01:57.716 Always difficult in a post conviction proceeding to take what 0:01:57.756 --> 0:02:01.556 we know today and apply it to a trial proceeding 0:02:01.596 --> 0:02:03.596 that happened years. 0:02:03.236 --> 0:02:04.996 And in this case, decades ago. 0:02:06.116 --> 0:02:09.116 The circumstances of the crime, the facts of the unknw 0:02:09.196 --> 0:02:12.276 line crime, those have all been litigated, and as council said, 0:02:12.276 --> 0:02:14.996 we're not here to relitigate the facts of the case. 0:02:15.596 --> 0:02:18.676 Basically, the state was saying, look, we're not here for 0:02:18.716 --> 0:02:22.276 a new trial. We're only here to determine if Ronnie 0:02:22.316 --> 0:02:26.276 Kerriskillo should be re sentenced. Now, Ronnie claimed that his 0:02:26.356 --> 0:02:30.116 sentence was unfair and disproportionate to his crime, but the 0:02:30.116 --> 0:02:33.676 state then argues, what really matters here is that Ronnie 0:02:33.756 --> 0:02:35.836 has a shot at release, and as long as he 0:02:35.956 --> 0:02:39.236 does well, then the sentence is fair. 0:02:39.996 --> 0:02:42.156 And that is key to the decision and the key 0:02:42.236 --> 0:02:47.836 to the analysis here because mister Karraschio is eligible for parole. 0:02:48.556 --> 0:02:51.596 In other words, perhaps six hundred years sounds like a 0:02:51.636 --> 0:02:55.636 long time, but he's eligible for parole. So what's the problem. 0:02:56.236 --> 0:03:00.516 And the judge basically agrees. What does this mean for Ronnie? Well, 0:03:00.676 --> 0:03:02.596 it means that he now has to place all of 0:03:02.636 --> 0:03:07.356 his hopes on getting parole. There's just one problem when 0:03:07.396 --> 0:03:09.676 it comes to the parole board. It's it seems that 0:03:09.756 --> 0:03:13.796 he can't escape the notoriety of his own story. Ronnie's 0:03:13.836 --> 0:03:17.396 been in prison for nearly half a century, and he's 0:03:17.396 --> 0:03:21.436 stuck in a convoluted legal system, a system that perhaps 0:03:21.476 --> 0:03:24.716 could be gained by an operator like Bob Cooley, but 0:03:24.796 --> 0:03:27.756 which was terrifying to a guy like Ronnie who was 0:03:27.796 --> 0:03:32.076 trapped inside with no fixer to call. And I gotta 0:03:32.116 --> 0:03:35.276 tell you, at times, Ronnie's story felt a bit like 0:03:35.316 --> 0:03:38.676 a Franz Kafka novel. There's a guy and he's stuck 0:03:39.036 --> 0:03:41.796 trying to find his way out of one darkened labyrinth 0:03:41.876 --> 0:03:45.076 after another, and every time it looks like there might 0:03:45.156 --> 0:04:12.516 be an exit, the lights flicker out. I'm Jake Halpern, 0:04:12.876 --> 0:04:15.916 and this is deep cover mob Land. 0:04:47.516 --> 0:04:52.556 Thank you for using Securius you may start the conversation now. 0:04:52.636 --> 0:04:54.156 This morning, Hey Ronnie, how are you? 0:04:55.116 --> 0:04:56.196 WHOA Hey, we're all again. 0:04:57.076 --> 0:05:01.796 Ronnie's been incarcerated since October of nineteen seventy six. Back then, 0:05:01.996 --> 0:05:05.396 Ronnie was a teenager and a gang member. One night 0:05:05.436 --> 0:05:07.796 he got involved in a fight. He says he shot 0:05:07.796 --> 0:05:11.356 off the gun to break things up and accidentally killed 0:05:11.396 --> 0:05:16.316 an off duty policeman, a man named Terence Loftus. Ronnie 0:05:16.356 --> 0:05:19.396 was sentenced to two hundred to six hundred years in prison, 0:05:20.116 --> 0:05:23.596 and afterwards he was sort of stunned. He says it 0:05:23.636 --> 0:05:26.396 took him years to realize what the sentence would really 0:05:26.436 --> 0:05:27.076 mean for him. 0:05:27.436 --> 0:05:29.516 That's tak off and realize. Man. 0:05:30.476 --> 0:05:34.396 He filed some early appeals that went well nowhere. 0:05:34.796 --> 0:05:37.956 That's my father. Don't buy no more appeals, don't buy 0:05:37.996 --> 0:05:39.876 no more lawyers. I go to the parole book. I'm 0:05:39.876 --> 0:05:41.876 gonna see it and I shot this type of far 0:05:41.916 --> 0:05:44.596 away there's no attention in it, and I'll make parole. 0:05:45.236 --> 0:05:49.636 Parole. That was Ronnie's big hope. Yeah. Sure, maybe he'd 0:05:49.636 --> 0:05:53.396 gotten slammed on his sentencing, but with good behavior, he 0:05:53.476 --> 0:05:56.516 hoped he'd get out on parole. So he gradually turned 0:05:56.516 --> 0:05:59.796 his life around in prison, he renounced his gang membership, 0:06:00.116 --> 0:06:03.876 He learned a number of trades, got his ged, found religion, 0:06:04.116 --> 0:06:07.436 became a mentor, he says, in so many ways, he 0:06:07.476 --> 0:06:10.676 became a different person. And he figured the parole board 0:06:10.796 --> 0:06:13.716 would see this, that they'd review the facts of his 0:06:13.876 --> 0:06:15.876 case and release him. 0:06:16.196 --> 0:06:18.516 How many times have you been before a parole board? 0:06:19.116 --> 0:06:23.076 I think thirty five times. At least thirty five times. 0:06:23.596 --> 0:06:27.236 Over thirty times Ronnie's gone before the parole board. That's 0:06:27.236 --> 0:06:29.636 almost once a year. It's kind of like going to 0:06:29.676 --> 0:06:34.836 the Super Bowl annually and losing every single time. Ronnie 0:06:34.876 --> 0:06:38.796 just keeps getting told Nope, you're not getting out. Even 0:06:38.836 --> 0:06:41.756 so each year or so, when Ronnie comes up for parole, 0:06:42.196 --> 0:06:46.476 he keeps trying, keeps providing evidence of his rehabilitation, and 0:06:46.596 --> 0:06:48.276 talks about how far he's come. 0:06:49.196 --> 0:06:52.236 My life has transformed so much from what I came 0:06:52.316 --> 0:06:55.036 as a youth. I was a poor student. I was 0:06:55.116 --> 0:06:58.836 not a bright educational book wise, not that I got 0:06:58.876 --> 0:07:01.716 my GZI started going to college. I have six seven 0:07:01.716 --> 0:07:02.436 different trades. 0:07:03.116 --> 0:07:06.956 While behind bars, He's worked as an electrician, a welder, 0:07:07.276 --> 0:07:11.276 a locksmith, a pipe bender, and a washer dryer repair man. 0:07:11.916 --> 0:07:14.516 He's also trained to become a typist and a paralegal. 0:07:14.676 --> 0:07:18.516 He's mentored fellow inmates, giving them legal advice. He's coached 0:07:18.516 --> 0:07:22.436 the prisons baseball team and organized soccer tournaments for his jailmates. 0:07:22.916 --> 0:07:25.316 He's a pastor, and he's even written a Bible study 0:07:25.356 --> 0:07:29.916 workbook called Covenant with Abraham. Ronnie is not allowed to 0:07:29.956 --> 0:07:33.876 attend parole hearings in person, but his supporters are and 0:07:33.916 --> 0:07:36.276 they do. They show up and vouch. 0:07:36.036 --> 0:07:40.916 For him all different times, black, white, Latin, whatever, racist, different, 0:07:40.996 --> 0:07:43.956 ex gang members, different, and all of them write letters 0:07:44.076 --> 0:07:46.316 that I impacted their life. And I've been coaching them in 0:07:46.396 --> 0:07:49.516 Christianity for long and saying, oh, you live your life well, healthy, motherical, health, 0:07:49.516 --> 0:07:51.236 your family, and this is all I do for my 0:07:51.316 --> 0:07:53.236 whole forty six years. 0:07:53.756 --> 0:07:56.876 Over the years, Ronnie has won over a number of supporters, 0:07:57.116 --> 0:08:01.556 including religious leaders, an Alderman, a US congressman, even one 0:08:01.556 --> 0:08:04.396 of the prosecutors who originally brought the case against him. 0:08:04.996 --> 0:08:09.476 That prosecutor, Thomas Breen, noted that Ronnie's years of menuring 0:08:09.596 --> 0:08:12.716 showed him to be a model for other inmates. Breen 0:08:12.796 --> 0:08:15.116 went so far as to compare Ronnie to the police 0:08:15.156 --> 0:08:18.916 officer he killed He said that Ronnie had quote many 0:08:18.956 --> 0:08:23.116 of the generous characteristics of a caring person, not unlike 0:08:23.396 --> 0:08:28.156 Terry Loftus. Members of the media have also written about 0:08:28.196 --> 0:08:32.516 Ronnie's story, tracking his bid for freedom. All of this 0:08:32.596 --> 0:08:35.716 seems like it might tip the scales in Ronnie's favor, right, 0:08:36.396 --> 0:08:40.676 the only problem being the parole board itself. It's known 0:08:40.676 --> 0:08:44.396 in Illinois as the Prisoner Review Board. Now in theory, 0:08:44.676 --> 0:08:47.836 it's a neutral body that can reach its own independent verdict. 0:08:48.316 --> 0:08:51.596 Its members are appointed by the governor. Its ranks include 0:08:51.636 --> 0:08:57.116 former parole officers, prosecutors, social workers, cops, and politicians. The 0:08:57.156 --> 0:09:01.036 board operates with virtually no oversight, and its decisions are 0:09:01.116 --> 0:09:05.396 not reviewable in court. Jorge Montes sat on that parole 0:09:05.396 --> 0:09:07.076 board for sixteen years. 0:09:07.996 --> 0:09:13.036 I was a law and order and conservative Republican, and 0:09:13.076 --> 0:09:17.116 I was going to do what all conservative people should do, 0:09:17.276 --> 0:09:20.676 is keep them all in and not let anybody out. 0:09:20.996 --> 0:09:22.076 That's what I set out to do. 0:09:22.556 --> 0:09:25.916 Jorge was a former prosecutor, and he was tough. He 0:09:25.956 --> 0:09:29.836 wasn't inclined to let many guys out. And then one 0:09:29.916 --> 0:09:33.916 day this one inmate comes up for parole. Jorge says, 0:09:33.956 --> 0:09:36.636 this inmate had a very strong case for being released, 0:09:37.236 --> 0:09:40.716 but Porge still voted no. He said he did it 0:09:40.876 --> 0:09:44.236 almost automatically, like that's just what he was supposed to do. 0:09:45.076 --> 0:09:47.716 And then something kind of odd happened. 0:09:48.276 --> 0:09:53.116 The very conservative Republican chairman told me, mister Montez, is 0:09:53.116 --> 0:09:55.916 there something we're missing here? I said, well, why would 0:09:55.916 --> 0:10:00.396 that be. You're voting to deny parole for what appears 0:10:00.436 --> 0:10:04.116 to be a pretty perfect candidate for a parole. I said, 0:10:04.156 --> 0:10:06.876 in that case, I withdraw my emotion and I would 0:10:06.916 --> 0:10:08.676 move that we parole, I mean we did. 0:10:09.196 --> 0:10:12.556 It was almost like on some level, Jorge was looking 0:10:12.596 --> 0:10:17.556 for permission to show leniency, to say, you know what, Yeah, 0:10:17.876 --> 0:10:20.876 this guy does deserve a second chance. Let him out. 0:10:21.276 --> 0:10:25.676 And that started my journey on these issues. So increasingly 0:10:26.116 --> 0:10:30.116 I began to scrutinize cases, to really consider where there's 0:10:30.156 --> 0:10:35.756 somebody had changed their lives and that warranted a second look, 0:10:36.356 --> 0:10:40.196 a second chance. And increasingly I began to find that 0:10:40.236 --> 0:10:43.556 a lot of these people were really redeemable, and my 0:10:43.676 --> 0:10:45.316 votes started to reflect that. 0:10:46.196 --> 0:10:49.436 All of that being said, when Jorge first heard Ronnie's 0:10:49.476 --> 0:10:53.196 case for parole, he says he wasn't persuaded, not at 0:10:53.196 --> 0:10:56.916 first anyhow, especially given the fact that Ronnie had killed 0:10:56.916 --> 0:11:00.236 a police officer. Jorge says that he voted against Ronnie 0:11:00.596 --> 0:11:04.036 a few times. At these hearings, the inmates are not 0:11:04.076 --> 0:11:07.676 allowed to show up and speak for themselves. Instead, one 0:11:07.756 --> 0:11:10.596 member of the parole board speaks with the inmate and 0:11:10.636 --> 0:11:14.196 then presents their case, almost like a lawyer, but not 0:11:14.316 --> 0:11:17.636 really because the presenters they may have their own agenda 0:11:17.836 --> 0:11:20.916 and they might not advocate for that inmate at all. 0:11:21.116 --> 0:11:23.396 So maybe you're starting to get what I'm talking about 0:11:23.476 --> 0:11:26.996 when I say this whole process at times feels like 0:11:27.076 --> 0:11:32.316 something that Franz Kafka cooked up. Anyway, one day, Ronnie 0:11:32.356 --> 0:11:35.596 is up for parole yet again. Jorge is still not 0:11:35.716 --> 0:11:39.196 convinced that Ronnie should be set free, and on this occasion, 0:11:39.516 --> 0:11:43.156 Ronnie's presenter is well, I'll just let Jorge explain. 0:11:43.676 --> 0:11:46.716 There was a gentleman on the board named Dick Doria, 0:11:47.276 --> 0:11:50.636 and Dick Doria was a sheriff from Tupeach County. Formerly 0:11:51.036 --> 0:11:55.236 the sheriff a hard conserve, ultra conservative. 0:11:55.196 --> 0:11:59.956 So bad news for Ronnie, right, But wait, because Dick Doria, 0:12:00.116 --> 0:12:04.236 the conservative former sheriff, when he made his presentation, he 0:12:04.316 --> 0:12:06.676 said something that really surprised. 0:12:06.276 --> 0:12:11.196 Orge, and Dick said that it was impossible, in his 0:12:11.316 --> 0:12:17.836 professional opinion, that Ronnie would have killed this officer purposely intentionally. 0:12:18.636 --> 0:12:21.876 Impossible the kind of weapon he used, and Monster Doria 0:12:21.876 --> 0:12:25.636 I knew all about ballistics and weapons and calibers, and 0:12:26.196 --> 0:12:29.556 he made a wonderful presentation. He said, I'm not well. 0:12:29.556 --> 0:12:31.836 I'm voting to release this man because I think he 0:12:32.516 --> 0:12:34.836 did not intentionally kill the police officer. 0:12:35.756 --> 0:12:38.516 According to Jorge, Dick Doria said that he looked at 0:12:38.556 --> 0:12:42.156 the evidence, the distances, the ballistics and the like, and 0:12:42.236 --> 0:12:45.636 determined it didn't add up. It didn't make sense that 0:12:45.716 --> 0:12:50.236 Ronnie had killed this cop intentionally, and this really got 0:12:50.276 --> 0:12:55.396 Jorge thinking critically about Ronnie's whole case, about Ronnie's intentions, 0:12:55.676 --> 0:12:58.876 his efforts to redeem himself, and even about the original 0:12:58.916 --> 0:13:02.076 sentence back in the nineteen seventies from Judge Wilson, and 0:13:02.156 --> 0:13:05.436 whether it had been fair. In fact, Jorge says he 0:13:05.516 --> 0:13:07.956 came to feel that Ronnie's sentence of up to six 0:13:08.076 --> 0:13:11.596 hundred years did seem a bit fishy coming on the 0:13:11.596 --> 0:13:14.276 heels of the Harry at Lamand trial, and that this 0:13:14.396 --> 0:13:16.836 might be an instance of camouflage bias. 0:13:17.676 --> 0:13:20.076 Well It makes sense to me that that a judge 0:13:20.076 --> 0:13:23.316 would behave this way and take it out on poor 0:13:23.396 --> 0:13:28.876 cas because he had just given this sniper who was 0:13:28.916 --> 0:13:32.716 well known in the community for being a mafioso. He 0:13:32.796 --> 0:13:35.116 gives them an out, he gives them, he gives them 0:13:35.116 --> 0:13:37.556 a past, and then of course he's got to cover 0:13:37.636 --> 0:13:42.556 his tracks by then, uh overreacting on the man. I 0:13:42.596 --> 0:13:45.316 thought that was an excellent arguments, and I believe. 0:13:45.036 --> 0:14:03.596 That we'll be right back throughout this process. Ronnie has 0:14:03.636 --> 0:14:07.876 also faced another big challenge. The Chicago Police Department and 0:14:07.956 --> 0:14:11.316 the union representing its officers do not want him to 0:14:11.316 --> 0:14:14.556 get parole, so much so that they have physically showed 0:14:14.636 --> 0:14:18.316 up at his parole hearings. Jorge remembers this. He says, 0:14:18.516 --> 0:14:19.836 they made quite an impression. 0:14:20.516 --> 0:14:24.996 The conference room was very tight, and Chicago would send 0:14:25.036 --> 0:14:28.756 busloads of police officers and they would all crowd in 0:14:28.756 --> 0:14:31.276 to the conference room that just fit the conference table, 0:14:31.756 --> 0:14:35.076 and there were all there are thirty cops standing around us, 0:14:35.916 --> 0:14:39.476 and they were looking over our shoulder and literally and 0:14:39.796 --> 0:14:43.756 as we're casting votes. It was very intimidating and very difficult. 0:14:43.956 --> 0:14:46.716 I've seen a picture of this scene and I got 0:14:46.716 --> 0:14:49.316 to describe it to you. You can see the Parole 0:14:49.356 --> 0:14:52.756 board members sitting at a table, and then like a 0:14:52.796 --> 0:14:56.436 foot behind them is a whole crowd of uniformed officers 0:14:56.876 --> 0:15:02.436 literally hovering over them. With time, Jorge came to realize 0:15:02.436 --> 0:15:05.636 that Ronnie might not ever receive enough votes for parole. 0:15:06.196 --> 0:15:08.356 In fact, at one point he even wrote an affid 0:15:08.436 --> 0:15:12.276 David on Ronnie's behalf. In that Affidavid, he said that 0:15:12.436 --> 0:15:16.676 despite Ronnie's quote excellent prison record and his strong family 0:15:16.716 --> 0:15:21.716 and community support, that he was repeatedly denied parole because quote, 0:15:21.876 --> 0:15:26.316 the victim was a Chicago police officer. Montez concluded that 0:15:26.436 --> 0:15:29.796 quote there are several members of the board then and 0:15:29.876 --> 0:15:33.436 now who will never vote for parole when the victim 0:15:33.676 --> 0:15:39.116 is a police officer. For Ronnie, none of this is encouraging. 0:15:39.876 --> 0:15:41.956 You know, the constitution says, we have votes and we 0:15:41.956 --> 0:15:43.796 don't care how most you GOTU there. We don't care 0:15:43.836 --> 0:15:45.796 about none of it. You kill the police officers and 0:15:45.876 --> 0:15:49.076 they blaintly say, I'm not gonna vote for a police killers. 0:15:49.556 --> 0:15:52.556 So you know, how can I have them for mercy 0:15:52.836 --> 0:15:56.236 when they're telling me before the hearing's even done. So 0:15:56.276 --> 0:15:58.716 I mean, if I bring anybody in there to testify, 0:15:58.956 --> 0:16:00.956 I'll hope or anything like that. We don't want to 0:16:00.956 --> 0:16:01.236 hear that. 0:16:02.196 --> 0:16:06.236 And this creates a real logistical challenge for Ronnie. Can 0:16:06.316 --> 0:16:09.396 he get the votes he needs to be released. Each 0:16:09.436 --> 0:16:12.036 time Ronnie is up for parole, the board is different. 0:16:12.436 --> 0:16:16.196 Old members cycle out, new members cycle in, and he's 0:16:16.236 --> 0:16:19.316 come close a few times. Each one of these moments 0:16:19.756 --> 0:16:22.916 is seered into his memory, moments when it seemed like 0:16:23.196 --> 0:16:25.756 maybe the door was about to swing open for him. 0:16:26.396 --> 0:16:30.476 In Justice Watch, a Chicago based nonprofit newsroom, has done 0:16:30.516 --> 0:16:34.436 some excellent reporting on Ronnie's bid for parole. They found 0:16:34.476 --> 0:16:36.876 that in the years between two thousand and five and 0:16:36.916 --> 0:16:40.036 two thousand and eight, Ronnie had a series of parole 0:16:40.076 --> 0:16:43.556 hearings and each year he came within one vote of 0:16:43.596 --> 0:16:47.476 winning his freedom. Jorge can still remember these votes, how 0:16:47.516 --> 0:16:50.476 excitement would build as the board members cast their votes 0:16:50.796 --> 0:16:51.796 one at a time. 0:16:52.196 --> 0:16:55.636 For those of us that were favorable to his release, 0:16:56.316 --> 0:17:01.036 it builds up a lot of momentum and expectation. And 0:17:01.196 --> 0:17:05.076 there's one, there's two, there's three. Oh, we're getting closed. 0:17:05.076 --> 0:17:07.436 I think this is it. He's gonna go home. And 0:17:07.476 --> 0:17:12.956 then we get to know. So that's it's very tense. 0:17:14.516 --> 0:17:17.836 In two thousand and eight, Ronnie actually won a majority 0:17:17.836 --> 0:17:21.196 of votes from the board, six yeses and five no's. 0:17:21.676 --> 0:17:25.996 That's a win, right, Nope, The Illinois Prisoner Review Board 0:17:26.156 --> 0:17:29.436 requires that he get a majority of all members, not 0:17:29.516 --> 0:17:32.076 just those in attendance, and that day there were two 0:17:32.156 --> 0:17:34.916 no shows and only thirteen members on the board at 0:17:34.956 --> 0:17:38.876 the time, so his six vote majority it didn't count. 0:17:39.756 --> 0:17:42.196 Jorge was the chairman of the parole Board at this point, 0:17:42.756 --> 0:17:45.956 and he says, to come this close and to fall short, 0:17:46.356 --> 0:17:48.236 it was really hard for him personally. 0:17:49.676 --> 0:17:54.596 You feel deflated and you feel demoralized because if you 0:17:54.716 --> 0:17:57.636 really believe in this and you work his work and 0:17:57.676 --> 0:18:01.636 you try to keep work away from home, but if 0:18:01.676 --> 0:18:04.516 you believe that it's the right thing to do, and 0:18:05.356 --> 0:18:08.996 that we're keeping somebody locked up, a human being locked up, 0:18:09.316 --> 0:18:13.756 that in the you're you're sympathizing with the family and 0:18:13.836 --> 0:18:19.116 you see all the tears and you see people leaving devastated. Yeah, itated, 0:18:19.236 --> 0:18:19.876 it impacts you. 0:18:20.516 --> 0:18:23.636 Ronnie wasn't there, but he soon got the news. 0:18:24.716 --> 0:18:27.636 According to my law, I was supposed to be granted parole. 0:18:27.876 --> 0:18:30.476 I made the majority of the vote for me. 0:18:30.596 --> 0:18:32.756 Like, what's that my going before the parole board thirty 0:18:32.796 --> 0:18:35.996 five times and getting rejected every time. 0:18:37.476 --> 0:18:39.436 I never go in front of the whole committee. I 0:18:39.516 --> 0:18:42.516 see one person. One person comes and they call him 0:18:42.516 --> 0:18:45.156 my hearing officer. After that, talk to nobody but this 0:18:45.196 --> 0:18:48.556 one person. I'm up against an invisible body that I 0:18:48.636 --> 0:18:49.396 never see. 0:18:50.236 --> 0:18:53.476 In twenty twenty, Ronnie was up for parole once again, 0:18:53.996 --> 0:18:56.556 and the event attracted attention from the local press. 0:18:58.316 --> 0:19:00.796 WDN investigates comp killers going free. 0:19:00.956 --> 0:19:04.276 Now another officer's murderer is appealing to the Illinois Prisoner 0:19:04.356 --> 0:19:05.636 Review Board for freedom. 0:19:05.876 --> 0:19:08.996 This is a news report from WGN in Chicago that 0:19:09.156 --> 0:19:11.876 aired in September of twenty twenty, a few weeks before 0:19:11.956 --> 0:19:14.276 Ronnie was set to appear before the parole board. 0:19:14.676 --> 0:19:16.556 You might think that killing a cop would lead to 0:19:16.636 --> 0:19:20.636 an automatic life sentence, but under old sentencing rules, inmates 0:19:20.636 --> 0:19:24.116 are fighting themselves eligible for release, and as we found, 0:19:24.236 --> 0:19:27.676 it often lands in the lapse of deceased officers' families 0:19:27.956 --> 0:19:29.676 to fight to keep them locked up. 0:19:30.116 --> 0:19:33.436 The family members of the victim often come to these hearings. 0:19:33.916 --> 0:19:37.076 It's a tortured process. They talk about how hard it's 0:19:37.076 --> 0:19:39.076 been for them and how they hope that the killer 0:19:39.236 --> 0:19:41.996 will not be allowed to just walk away. In the 0:19:42.116 --> 0:19:45.676 WGN news story about Ronnie, a cousin spoke for the 0:19:45.716 --> 0:19:49.916 Loftis family. We are aging and we need to speak 0:19:49.956 --> 0:19:50.436 for him. 0:19:50.796 --> 0:19:53.516 We need to speak for his parents and for his brother, 0:19:54.076 --> 0:19:55.436 and they are all gone. 0:19:56.396 --> 0:19:58.996 I did read an interview with Loftus's brother before he 0:19:59.036 --> 0:20:02.276 passed away. He told the Chicago Sun Times that the 0:20:02.316 --> 0:20:07.116 shooting devastated the family, saying, quote, our mother was never 0:20:07.156 --> 0:20:11.156 the same. After that, the Fraternal Order of Police declined 0:20:11.156 --> 0:20:14.356 my requests for an interview, and the Chicago Police Department 0:20:14.556 --> 0:20:17.876 didn't respond to my requests for comment. But I did 0:20:17.916 --> 0:20:21.956 manage to find a web page commemorating Terence Loftus. A 0:20:22.036 --> 0:20:25.076 number of his friends and fellow police officers had posted 0:20:25.116 --> 0:20:31.276 messages here. One read, I remember the night he was killed. 0:20:31.716 --> 0:20:34.036 He was showing me his new green leather jacket in 0:20:34.116 --> 0:20:37.676 the tactical office. A few hours later he was shot. 0:20:38.436 --> 0:20:40.916 I remember seeing him later at the hospital with a 0:20:40.956 --> 0:20:43.316 breathing tube in his mouth and the sounds of the 0:20:43.356 --> 0:20:47.156 air machine pumping in a steady rhythm. That vision to 0:20:47.236 --> 0:20:49.916 this day has haunted me and will until the day 0:20:49.956 --> 0:20:54.116 I die. Unlike the reprobate that killed him. Terry was 0:20:54.156 --> 0:20:58.476 an honorable and exceptional person. Some of the posts were 0:20:58.516 --> 0:21:01.676 written directly to Terry, like letters sent to him in 0:21:01.676 --> 0:21:06.276 the beyond. One of those read quote, once again, parole 0:21:06.316 --> 0:21:08.996 has been denied for the individual that took your life 0:21:09.316 --> 0:21:11.436 and cause so much pain to those that love you. 0:21:12.316 --> 0:21:14.876 This time, the parole board said, he has to wait 0:21:14.916 --> 0:21:18.476 three years to be heard again. When that time comes, 0:21:18.796 --> 0:21:21.556 your brother, officers will be there again like they have 0:21:21.676 --> 0:21:24.636 been in the past, to stop this individual from getting 0:21:24.636 --> 0:21:32.556 out of prison. You have not been forgotten. Reading these posts, 0:21:33.036 --> 0:21:36.036 it was heartbreaking, and I could see how, even all 0:21:36.076 --> 0:21:39.236 these years later, his friends and family would still be 0:21:39.356 --> 0:21:42.756 simmering with anguish and rage at the tragedy of it all. 0:21:43.516 --> 0:21:48.196 It also seemed almost cruel that year after year Loftus's 0:21:48.196 --> 0:21:51.316 friends and family members would be expected to attend these 0:21:51.356 --> 0:21:54.956 parole hearings and share these kinds of sentiments that they'd 0:21:54.956 --> 0:21:59.916 have to relive their trauma again and again. I also 0:22:00.036 --> 0:22:03.476 have to wonder what Terence Loftus himself would say about 0:22:03.516 --> 0:22:05.876 all of this. I wonder how he would want to 0:22:05.916 --> 0:22:09.796 be remembered, what he would want his legacy to be, 0:22:09.796 --> 0:22:13.516 because after all. This was a man whose defining act 0:22:13.956 --> 0:22:17.956 was one of courage and decency. His biggest mistake, the 0:22:17.996 --> 0:22:20.796 thing that got him killed, was his inclination to help 0:22:21.316 --> 0:22:24.636 to step into the fray when he absolutely didn't have to. 0:22:30.836 --> 0:22:35.276 For Ronnie, the whole situation is confounding. He accepts his 0:22:35.356 --> 0:22:38.916 responsibility for the death of Officer Loftus, he knows he's 0:22:38.956 --> 0:22:40.956 the one who pulled the trigger, and he says that 0:22:40.996 --> 0:22:44.516 he's done everything in his power to redeem himself. But 0:22:44.636 --> 0:22:47.756 as far as the justice system is concerned, there appears 0:22:47.796 --> 0:22:49.756 to be no real path forward. 0:22:50.396 --> 0:22:54.236 I'm not supposed to mature and be able to have 0:22:54.356 --> 0:22:58.596 the constitutional right of being restored to useful citizenship. Judge 0:22:58.756 --> 0:23:01.236 didn't leave me no room for it. He just wasted me. 0:23:01.796 --> 0:23:05.556 I'm wondering how in the face of being rejected for 0:23:05.676 --> 0:23:09.396 parole for thirty five times and being in is in 0:23:09.756 --> 0:23:12.436 for almost half a century, Like, how do you keep 0:23:12.476 --> 0:23:16.196 that faith in that hope lives well? 0:23:16.396 --> 0:23:18.516 I studied who I was a day. I stay in 0:23:18.556 --> 0:23:20.596 the scripture that I pray every day. I pray with 0:23:20.676 --> 0:23:27.556 other people. Oh it's heartbreaking, especially when you lose family 0:23:27.596 --> 0:23:30.716 members down the line and they keep your faith so 0:23:31.396 --> 0:23:34.116 there's a scripture in there where it says what is 0:23:34.396 --> 0:23:38.876 Genesis fifty twenty, where what man means means for evil 0:23:39.316 --> 0:23:42.076 that God means for good? And in the Bible, God 0:23:42.156 --> 0:23:44.996 is is it just? God is just all justice. 0:23:45.356 --> 0:23:48.676 This whole exchange oddly reminded me of something that Bob 0:23:48.796 --> 0:23:52.116 Cooley once said to me. He said that in his mind, 0:23:52.556 --> 0:23:55.676 the world of justice was divided into man's law and 0:23:55.796 --> 0:23:58.636 God's law, and then he put little faith in Man's law, 0:23:59.036 --> 0:24:02.516 I think because he saw it as arbitrary and fundamentally corrupt. 0:24:03.356 --> 0:24:06.956 But God's law, on the other hand, was pure and transcendent, 0:24:07.636 --> 0:24:11.316 and according to Bob, it's had a meaning for him. 0:24:11.436 --> 0:24:14.636 And I kind of understood this. In a city like Chicago, 0:24:14.956 --> 0:24:19.876 where corruption and politics and gang violence and lingering class 0:24:19.916 --> 0:24:24.156 resentments all skewed the law of man, he almost had 0:24:24.156 --> 0:24:28.076 to grasp for something higher, hope that true justice might 0:24:28.116 --> 0:24:32.036 exist elsewhere, in some better realm. And it was here 0:24:32.116 --> 0:24:36.516 that Ronnie's faith resided. Though I wondered if he thought 0:24:36.516 --> 0:24:39.316 that this faith alone would actually get him past that 0:24:39.436 --> 0:24:40.076 parole board. 0:24:41.596 --> 0:24:43.876 What do you think your chances of being released are. 0:24:44.476 --> 0:24:47.716 I'm going to release I have faith in God, I 0:24:47.756 --> 0:24:51.156 pray every day. Did he put on the hearts of 0:24:51.196 --> 0:24:54.276 the just people, you know, to see the scenario, and 0:24:55.036 --> 0:24:59.956 they don't address the politics of it and give the 0:25:00.036 --> 0:25:03.596 judgment by law. I'm not gonna surrender myself all wanna 0:25:03.636 --> 0:25:05.516 die here, I'm not gonna. I'm not gonna go for it. 0:25:05.596 --> 0:25:06.876 I'm not. I'm not living that way. 0:25:07.716 --> 0:25:10.996 If you were released tomorrow, what's the first thing you 0:25:10.996 --> 0:25:11.436